WEBVTT - Checking In w/ Dr. Sue Varma 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.000 Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:20.200 iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. I know you've heard the 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:24.600 song don't worry, be Happy or since just be positive. 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:26.400 It's all gonna be okay. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.520 I'm excited to talk to doctor Sue Varma. She's got 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.839 a book called Practical Optimism, The Art, Science, and Practice 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.919 of Exceptional well Being, and I want to get her 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.200 thoughts on the term toxic positivity. If you've heard that term, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.000 or if somebody has been too positive while you've been 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:52.640 going through something, I want you to listen to this episode. Hello, 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.240 Welcome to another amazing episode of Checking In. I really 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.680 hope that you have been enjoying the variety of the 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.560 pre episodes. They have been so fun, so so positive, 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.479 so affirming, and it kind of lines up with our 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.759 guests that we have today. I'm sure you've seen her 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.240 as an expert on the Today Show or Good Morning America. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:20.400 She's an author, psychiatrist, New York University medical professor, a 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:25.240 two time sharecare Emmy winner. Please welcome doctor Sue Varma 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:26.320 to Checking In. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.319 Thank you so much for having name show. So great 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:29.800 to see you. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.960 I'm just so delighted. I know me and the producers 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.000 of Checking In. We are delighted to have you here. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.440 You have a new book called Practical Optimism, The Art, science, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:46.520 and Practice of Exceptional well Being, and we're gonna just 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.200 get right into it. Well, actually, before we get into it, 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:54.280 I want you, guys, we all know that what September 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:55.720 eleventh did. 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:57.760 I can tell you where I was. 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:04.360 I was in Los Angeles, September eleventh, two thousand and one, Reachion, Beverly, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:09.160 Wilshire Hotel, me Beyonce and Kelly. We were preparing for 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:15.840 the Latin Grammys and ninety eleven happens. Well, y'all, Doctor 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:22.880 Sue Varma worked with survivors of ninety eleven, and if 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.760 I'm not mistaken, that's what led you to this past 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:29.480 of positivity and optimism. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.680 Yes, and you know it's so interesting, Michelle's like, no 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.680 matter where in the country you were, none of us 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.440 were untouched by by nine to eleven. And I was 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.000 in my training at the time, and then you know, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.360 we we were sitting in the New York City hospitals, 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.839 not sitting waiting anticipating folks to come in and discharging 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.560 a lot of patients and hoping that people would come in, 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.079 and what we were finding instead was that the death 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.760 hole kept increasing and we didn't have too many living 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.919 people coming in. And it would be a few years 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.720 later when I got selected to be the medical director 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:09.240 of this program and started getting very interested in resilience 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.160 because Michelle I was seeing that there were all these 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.720 people who would come in and some of them had 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.280 medical problems. They were covered that day with dustin debris 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.200 as they were trying to escape, a lot of them 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:25.280 got trampled on. Some people witnessed loved ones just getting trapped, 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.320 not being able to get out, seeing people jumping out 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.720 of the windows, like just all the worst terrific, unimaginable stuff. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.600 But what it also taught me about was how the 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:39.200 human spirit truly is resilient in the face of adversity, 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.360 and really it's through helping others. That is where I 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.160 saw some of the strongest people. Not that they didn't 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.560 have their own injury or illness or problems or job loss, 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.640 but somehow they in the midst of all this, they 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.800 were able to rescue other people, pick up the people 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.120 that were trampled on. And then these were the folks 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.800 that kind of went on to to survive and not 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.640 just survive, but thrive. And so I got interested in 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.400 who these people are, what are their genetics, what have 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.560 set them up in life? You know? And then how 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.160 can the rest of us learn and take notes? Because 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.520 up until now, you know, Michelle always thought of like 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.559 optimism as something you were either born with or you weren't. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.680 And then what do you do if you're not? What 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.440 do you do if you're the glass half empty type? 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.920 Because all of us know people like that, right, Like, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.239 so it was like, all right, how do we figure 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.680 out what do these people have who are just naturally positive? 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.320 And then how can the rest of us learn from them? 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.520 So good and y'all well, doctor Subrama is talking about 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.359 she was the she's as the pioneering medical director and 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.960 attending psychiatrists at the World Trade Center Mental health programs. 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.760 She played a crucial role. 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.560 In supporting civilian and first responders in the aftermath of 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.719 the tragic ninety eleven event, and as she's also sharing, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.880 she saw the stress and the trauma. And I love 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:10.640 how you're saying, you notice the resilience of people who 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:17.280 were injured or on the scene, injured themselves, but helping people. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.640 You know, you said. A key word you said genetics. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.040 Mm hmm am I hearing you say, is optimism and 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:26.400 resilience the same thing? 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:32.520 Great question. Optimism is one key component of resilience, and 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.560 then there are other key components that can help people 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:40.120 be more resilient, like people who are flexible in their thinking, 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.880 people who are able to reframe things positively, people who 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.159 are able to offer people social support or get social 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.599 support themselves, people who have a sense of humor. Like, 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.640 think of resilience as sort of this umbrella and then 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.760 underneath it that they're all these little things, and optimism 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.160 is sort of one of the key five or six 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.839 things that all feed into resilience, and up until now 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.040 nobody really paid attention because they're like, all, right, social support, 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:08.719 I can work on, I can try to learn how 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.479 to ask for help, right, I can kind of reframe 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.760 my negative thinking, maybe with the help of a good therapist. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.159 But what is this optimism nonsense? Right? Like, it's like 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.039 either you have it or you don't. And if you 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.000 don't have it, First of all, if you have it, 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:26.200 are you like we were talking about toxically positive, Like yeah, 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.719 all figured itself out? Or are you just negative? And 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.480 then there wasn't nobody realized that it was something actionable, 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.800 that optimism is a skill, that it's a tool that 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.200 it can be learned, it can be taught, and it 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.159 can be practiced, and our life depends on it. Because 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.280 there is so much robust study that shows that people 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:49.919 who are optimists, so you know, if you're blessed to 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.760 have these genes, you can benefit from it so that 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.479 you live longer ten to fifteen percent longer. Optimists are healthier, 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.240 they make more money, they have longer lasting relationships. So 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.800 there's so much robust science now and data to back 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.479 up the benefits of optimism. But up until now, until 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.160 this book, no one told us how to do it. 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:11.640 And so that's what I'm saying. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.080 You're saying it's genetic. Optimism is genetic. 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.920 Only one component though, So this is what I learned 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.600 in my research. Optimism is genetic, but only twenty five percent. 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.200 The rest seventy five percent is up to us. So 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.440 these research, Yeah, it is really like fascinating what I learned. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:36.239 So researchers in twenty eleven at the UCLA Medical Senator 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.880 did some research and they found that there's a gene 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.080 that actually corresponds with optimism, and if you have this 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.720 particular variant, you're set. You're going to see things positively. 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.040 And that's what optimism is is, in any number of 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.800 possible outcomes, you always envision, imagine the more favorable one. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.000 People who aren't born with this gene or a variant 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:03.400 of it, have a tendency to pa negative thinking and depression. 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.480 But to me, the more interesting part was not which 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.080 gene you were born with. What was the fact that 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.440 people who had this optimism gene, so to speak, had 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.400 specific skills, so they were more likely to ask for help. 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.920 They were better at regulating their emotions and coping skills. 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.160 And I was like, I'm already doing this with my patients, right, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.160 but I'm doing this with patients who've already gone through 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.760 trauma the other shoe has already dropped, so to speak, 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.080 and who have come in asking for help, the big 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.400 tea of trauma, life threatening type of thing. But what 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.920 about all the little teas, the everyday the disappointments, the 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:44.559 job loss, the breakup. What about that? What about those folks? 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.120 They may not have a big enough quote trauma to 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.120 bring them into help, some of them because they have 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.280 stigma and barriers will never come to seek help. How 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.480 do we take what we learn about optimism the genetic 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.439 kind and then turn it into a set of practices, 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.280 because really, that's what the researchers found, is that there 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.760 are skills that optimists do. It's not magic. It's really 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.160 not magic. Some people are just gifted and they're born 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.480 with this natural tendency, right. But really, what you find 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.880 in the brain when you do brain scans is that 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.839 people with optimism, they have more activity in a certain 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.360 part of their brain, in the left part. Yeah, so 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.280 you can see. So if I gave you an exercise, 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:24.920 and if you're an optimist, you're gonna be like, I 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:26.880 show you a picture of a car accident. Na, na, Na, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.120 They'll get fine, they'll get medical treatment, we'll go back 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.600 to work three days, three days. The pessimists will see 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.800 the same thing, and they're going to have more activity 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:36.200 in the right part of the brain, and they're gonna 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:37.719 be like, Nah, they're not going to get better. It's 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.520 going to take them three months. They're not going to walk, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:41.599 their wife is going to leave them as a result. Like, 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.800 they'll just project the worst case and you can see 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:45.800 it on their brain scan. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.000 So the person that is a pessimist, is it because 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.160 maybe it's been environmental They just had a lot of 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:59.240 bad cards dealt to them, trauma, abuse. 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.280 Yes, percent, What a great question, and I love what 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.600 you're asking me because you're right, it's all of the above. 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.400 Like some of us just from the moment were born, 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.080 were hardwired. It could be intergenerational traumas to think of, 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:17.360 like our parents themselves were abused, were neglected, were incarcerated, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:22.080 had untreated mental illness, substance abuse. So all of this 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:26.000 what we call like they call them adverse childhood events. 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.800 And it could be your parents getting divorced, your parent 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.520 not getting treated for illness, your parents fighting a parent, 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.880 leaving a parent, getting anything. And all of us probably 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.680 have at least one of these, and you know something something, 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:43.240 everybody's got something. So pessimism can come from your parents 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.720 having experienced trauma and it's already kind of baked into 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.920 your own genes. It could be the mental health history 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.640 in your family that there's people in your family that 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.200 have depression and it's been passed on to you. And 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.959 then the cards you're dealt one hundred percent, But the 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.000 thing is in spite of all of this what we 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.200 call genetic loading. That you might have had a family 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.120 history of pessimism, of depression, your own history of trauma, 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.840 you can still change the way you look, because when 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.880 you change the way you look, your life changes, your 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:21.360 outcomes changes. And that's how optimism differs practical optimism, because 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.560 it's not just having a positive outlook, it's turning those 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.880 positive outlooks into positive outcomes through action. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:33.600 Wow, you've said so much as far as intergenerational trauma 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.040 and how a woman carrying it can it can be 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.559 in the womb and passed down. I'm like, Lork, can 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.800 we inject some positivity into the. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:43.640 Sperm and the egg? 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:45.920 I love that. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.160 Can we inject some skill? 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:55.000 Some starburds something so that because it's like, it's unfair 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:56.160 to that child. 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.160 They're just like, I'm just here. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:05.040 And as a result of me involuntarily being here, I 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:10.599 have depression. So even for me, I have dealt with depression. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.360 I have found a way where if there is an 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.640 event that's caused me to well, Okay, So for instance, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.800 this June twenty twenty three, I went through something in 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.760 some friendship but I noticed maybe it was depression, but 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:32.480 I got physically ill. My depression has been the type 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.760 where it puts me in the bed for days. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:38.319 I don't eat, I'm not. 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.199 Able to wash up, and just normal hygiene things. So 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.319 I was trying so hard. Nope, you're not going to 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:46.960 go back there. You're not going to go back there. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:53.400 To the point where I think my response was like, Okay, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.800 you're feeling this hurt, and maybe you're feeling hurt or 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:04.320 betrayed or overlooked or misunderstood. I got physically ill talking 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.760 to my mother about people and my family with depression. 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.080 She's had depression, her sister had depression, but I feel 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.000 like it was situational because she had a child that 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:20.400 was still born. But we looked at my father and 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.920 she admitted that it's a possibility that it had he 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.240 been diagnosed, him and his. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.160 Father, so my grandfather. 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.400 And my dad would have been bipolar. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:36.080 So then here I come, and I think all of 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.400 my siblings have dealt with some form of depression, but 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:45.160 mine started in the seventh grade, and I'm like, what 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.440 do I have to be depressed about in the seventh grade. 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:52.640 So hearing you and other psychiatrists talk about how it 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:58.280 can be passed on passed down or I was bullied, 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.000 and I'm not saying me not knowing how to respond 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.320 to bulled maybe that can make a child depressed. I 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.160 would love for you to just help us unpack I 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.920 guess what I'm talking about, especially talking about depression so 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.400 young in the seventh grade, but the whole genetic piece 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.760 of that. Yes, you know, I said a lot by 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:19.560 the way. 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:20.920 You know, but thank you so much for first of 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.400 all being so open about it, because we need we 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.280 need this, you know, like when someone looks at you 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:26.760 like they would never know, like if they didn't know 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.080 your story, they would just say she's fabulous, like things 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.640 have worked out for her, like nobody would ever think. 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.240 And that's the problem is people think that these two 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.120 things are incompatible with each other. They almost put people 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.280 in two buckets, like you're either successful or you've had depression, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.920 Like they don't put it together them successful people often 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.760 live with depression and it's and and all the success 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.240 they achieved might be in spite of it or like 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.200 working really hard to fight it or to not let 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.080 it take over. So thank you for sharing that. And yes, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.600 so you know it's very interesting. Depression is a very 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.440 complex illness in that now we're getting more understanding that 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.760 the inflammation can be a part of it. So like 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.400 our things like our diet can play a role. Exercise 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.440 can help boost and kind of mitigate some of the 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.200 symptoms of depression by increasing dworphans in the brain and 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:18.440 serotonin and certain chemicals BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factors. So 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:22.000 there's all these things that can help us kind of 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.840 like fight against this maybe genetic predisposition, because when you're 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:31.280 talking about untreated bipolar disorder in the family, bipolar disorder 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.400 is highly highly like what we call genetically like transmitted 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.360 or heritable and like passed on and from parent to child. 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.320 And what we also see is that people who have 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:46.120 bipolar disorder in the family often will also have first 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.240 degree relatives, so like a sibling or a child which 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.160 has just straight up depression unipolar depression, like bipolar is 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.600 both the mania and then the low the high highs 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.480 and the lo lows, and unipolar is just the lows. 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.800 So definitely, it's like it's like for you, like it 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.640 sounded like hitting from both sides, Like you know, you've 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.680 got the dad and the grandparent and the mom and 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.880 your mom's sisters, so it's understandable. Like the likelihood or 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.280 the chances of the child having it if both parents 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.360 have had something in the form of a mood disorder 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.760 is absolutely very high. And then you add in environmental 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.280 pressures of the like the bullying, which is very damaging, 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:30.120 like bullying one percent increases your risk for all sorts 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.880 of problems like anxiety, depression, academic challenges. Because Michelle, one 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.480 of our fundamental needs as human being is belonging and 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.880 knowing that we matter to our peers, to feel like 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.080 we fit in and to feel like we have a 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.400 place in our society and in our community. And so 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.520 absolutely there's no reason why a seventh grader couldn't have depression, 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.640 especially if it's in the family. 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.760 To begin with, that's so good, that's so good. 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.280 And you know, when you're at that age, you don't 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.920 have the language. I didn't have the language in the 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:08.520 nineties for depression. I knew of loopus cancer. Just trying 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.560 to think of things family members have gone through, maybe 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.000 pneumonia at that time, aids what. 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:21.480 Depression, Yeah, no, part of it, no, And culturally yeah, 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.840 and culturally right like mm hmm, like communities of color 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.880 it's just not talked about, it's not understood, it's frowned upon. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.840 Their stigma. They're shame. There's blame, and like how can 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.800 we also forget like just the role like I think women, right, 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.320 Like women go through so much, so much is expected 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.240 of them. They are the matriarchs in many of our communities, 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.919 and so I feel like we become each other's support system. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.959 But like there's so many and you have to be tough, right, 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.000 you have to put on a tough face, a brave face. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.960 That so much is like you are the leader and 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.040 you are the pillar in your community. Right, So, like 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.919 when I think about like moms and aunts, they're cooking, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.439 their home is open, people are coming in, and like 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.560 you don't even get a minute. You don't have the 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.359 luxury of being depressed, Like depression can be seen as 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.240 a luxury sometimes, right, Like you know, get up, pick 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.680 it up, move it. People are relying. You've got kids 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.680 to take care of. Like, so I feel like there's 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.520 a lot of layers and culture plays and ethnicity plays 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.960 a big role in this whether you're allowed to even 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:24.720 be depressed. 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:35.359 So culturally, are you finding a certain culture more optimistic 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:36.080 than others? 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.160 You know, you know, it's such a great question because 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.520 they what they were finding with this genetic study is that, 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.040 for example, Asians, they were thinking, may be more likely 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.800 to pessimism and depression. And I find that so interesting 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.479 because just yes, there's a genetic component to it, but 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:58.119 there's also like culturally, like racism, bias, discrimination, all of 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:04.920 this affects our biology. When we're experiencing that we don't 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.480 we're not made to feel like we belong, whether it's 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.400 on a cultural level, maybe it's the color of our skin, 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.920 or we're just bullied because for no reason, and all 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.240 of that. I put that in a similar bucket where 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.160 it starts to chip away at our morale, you know, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.159 and something like nine to eleven terrorism can do that. 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.120 It chips away at your morale, your sense of safety. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.240 You're like, you feel threatened, someone is out to get me, 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.200 someone doesn't have my back. I'm not safe, I'm not protected. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.199 People don't like me. And however you want to call that, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.639 whether it's bullying in seventh grade, or whether it's like 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.120 I'm a woman of color moving in the world and 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.399 the world doesn't see me as equal to them, you know, 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.159 any number of things, and I feel like when you 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.600 look at people's chromosomes, what we find is that there's 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.400 more stress. They're telomeres, which are the ends of the chromosomes. 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.480 These pieces end up getting oxidative stress, and they end 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:02.120 up becoming shorter, and it makes our biological age older 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:06.320 than our actual chronological age. So like if you're thirty 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.680 thirty five, yep, you and if someone looked at your chromosomes, 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:11.240 I'll be like, you look like a fifty year old. 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.439 Like on the inside, Oh. 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:15.560 I want, I want you to look at my chromosome. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.239 I want to get We will have extra you know, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.359 glasses and visions hopefully for that. But when they do 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.520 the genetic testing, they'll look and you know what really 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.840 is interesting shell It's like something like meditation can prevent 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.840 that oxidative stress. So they found moms. They put young 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.520 moms who are undergoing a lot of stress, and they 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.200 put one in like a control group, and they didn't 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:39.920 do anything for them, and then they put another one 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.359 in like a meditation mindfulness group, and those women, over 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:48.120 time showed a younger biolog like comparatively to those who 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.800 did nothing, a younger biological age because the meditation protected them. 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.080 So just because they are all these forces and factors, 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.280 and it's understandable why people are feeling down these days, 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:03.400 like inflation, war, right, like our country is, you know, strife. 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.600 There's so many things happening politically. We don't feel protected 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.199 and safe by and taken care of by our leaders. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.800 We don't have health care as a basic we don't 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.080 have education as a basic right. Like to me, the 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.399 marker of a humane society is providing people their basic needs. 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.439 And when we look at like the World Happiness Index, 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.680 who are these top five countries? Who are these top ten? 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.800 The Scandinavian countries are always winning because women have rights, right, 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.160 they have positions and boards. So you can't have half 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.960 your population. If half your population as women be neglected, 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.400 left behind, not being given options, and then you don't 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:38.640 give them healthcare on education, look like you're screwed as 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.160 a society, you know. So I'm like, I'm pretty impressed. 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.960 I'm pretty impressed that Americans for the most part, are optimistic. 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.760 Of all countries I heard that like certain parts of 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.240 the world where women don't have rights, you know, the 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.239 optimism and the hot happiness fall, like in Afghanistan, they 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.080 are like the lowest on the happiness index, and happiness 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.440 and optimism are not quite the same. But this idea 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:04.720 that I have hope for better tomorrow, right, Like, I'm 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.359 impressed because I feel like, generally speaking, maybe compared to 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.399 other countries in the United States, we do women. You know, 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.960 I feel blessed enough, even coming from an immigrant family, 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:16.639 being a woman of color. Yes, I'm still grateful for 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.080 whatever opportunities I've had that I know I wouldn't have 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.800 had in other places. So as much as there's wrong 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.520 in this country, there's also a lot of positivity and 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:26.959 right So we have to balance it the good and 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:27.359 the bad. 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.920 Yeah. Yeah, it's something that you were talking about, say 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.040 like women in Afghanistan who know they want rights. Yeah, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:40.920 and I can imagine wanting something that you know you're 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.880 supposed to have, you know is a right. So I'm 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.600 with you when you say you can understand why there's 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:53.040 no optimism, there no happiness there going through the motions, 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:54.680 which was a question that I have for you a 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.480