Speaker 1: Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. I know you've heard the
Speaker 1: song don't worry, be Happy or since just be positive.
Speaker 2: It's all gonna be okay.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to doctor Sue Varma. She's got
Speaker 1: a book called Practical Optimism, The Art, Science, and Practice
Speaker 1: of Exceptional well Being, and I want to get her
Speaker 1: thoughts on the term toxic positivity. If you've heard that term,
Speaker 1: or if somebody has been too positive while you've been
Speaker 1: going through something, I want you to listen to this episode. Hello,
Speaker 1: Welcome to another amazing episode of Checking In. I really
Speaker 1: hope that you have been enjoying the variety of the
Speaker 1: pre episodes. They have been so fun, so so positive,
Speaker 1: so affirming, and it kind of lines up with our
Speaker 1: guests that we have today. I'm sure you've seen her
Speaker 1: as an expert on the Today Show or Good Morning America.
Speaker 1: She's an author, psychiatrist, New York University medical professor, a
Speaker 1: two time sharecare Emmy winner. Please welcome doctor Sue Varma
Speaker 1: to Checking In.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having name show. So great
Speaker 3: to see you.
Speaker 1: I'm just so delighted. I know me and the producers
Speaker 1: of Checking In. We are delighted to have you here.
Speaker 1: You have a new book called Practical Optimism, The Art, science,
Speaker 1: and Practice of Exceptional well Being, and we're gonna just
Speaker 1: get right into it. Well, actually, before we get into it,
Speaker 1: I want you, guys, we all know that what September
Speaker 1: eleventh did.
Speaker 2: I can tell you where I was.
Speaker 1: I was in Los Angeles, September eleventh, two thousand and one, Reachion, Beverly,
Speaker 1: Wilshire Hotel, me Beyonce and Kelly. We were preparing for
Speaker 1: the Latin Grammys and ninety eleven happens. Well, y'all, Doctor
Speaker 1: Sue Varma worked with survivors of ninety eleven, and if
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, that's what led you to this past
Speaker 1: of positivity and optimism.
Speaker 3: Yes, and you know it's so interesting, Michelle's like, no
Speaker 3: matter where in the country you were, none of us
Speaker 3: were untouched by by nine to eleven. And I was
Speaker 3: in my training at the time, and then you know,
Speaker 3: we we were sitting in the New York City hospitals,
Speaker 3: not sitting waiting anticipating folks to come in and discharging
Speaker 3: a lot of patients and hoping that people would come in,
Speaker 3: and what we were finding instead was that the death
Speaker 3: hole kept increasing and we didn't have too many living
Speaker 3: people coming in. And it would be a few years
Speaker 3: later when I got selected to be the medical director
Speaker 3: of this program and started getting very interested in resilience
Speaker 3: because Michelle I was seeing that there were all these
Speaker 3: people who would come in and some of them had
Speaker 3: medical problems. They were covered that day with dustin debris
Speaker 3: as they were trying to escape, a lot of them
Speaker 3: got trampled on. Some people witnessed loved ones just getting trapped,
Speaker 3: not being able to get out, seeing people jumping out
Speaker 3: of the windows, like just all the worst terrific, unimaginable stuff.
Speaker 3: But what it also taught me about was how the
Speaker 3: human spirit truly is resilient in the face of adversity,
Speaker 3: and really it's through helping others. That is where I
Speaker 3: saw some of the strongest people. Not that they didn't
Speaker 3: have their own injury or illness or problems or job loss,
Speaker 3: but somehow they in the midst of all this, they
Speaker 3: were able to rescue other people, pick up the people
Speaker 3: that were trampled on. And then these were the folks
Speaker 3: that kind of went on to to survive and not
Speaker 3: just survive, but thrive. And so I got interested in
Speaker 3: who these people are, what are their genetics, what have
Speaker 3: set them up in life? You know? And then how
Speaker 3: can the rest of us learn and take notes? Because
Speaker 3: up until now, you know, Michelle always thought of like
Speaker 3: optimism as something you were either born with or you weren't.
Speaker 3: And then what do you do if you're not? What
Speaker 3: do you do if you're the glass half empty type?
Speaker 3: Because all of us know people like that, right, Like,
Speaker 3: so it was like, all right, how do we figure
Speaker 3: out what do these people have who are just naturally positive?
Speaker 3: And then how can the rest of us learn from them?
Speaker 1: So good and y'all well, doctor Subrama is talking about
Speaker 1: she was the she's as the pioneering medical director and
Speaker 1: attending psychiatrists at the World Trade Center Mental health programs.
Speaker 2: She played a crucial role.
Speaker 1: In supporting civilian and first responders in the aftermath of
Speaker 1: the tragic ninety eleven event, and as she's also sharing,
Speaker 1: she saw the stress and the trauma. And I love
Speaker 1: how you're saying, you notice the resilience of people who
Speaker 1: were injured or on the scene, injured themselves, but helping people.
Speaker 2: You know, you said. A key word you said genetics.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm am I hearing you say, is optimism and
Speaker 1: resilience the same thing?
Speaker 3: Great question. Optimism is one key component of resilience, and
Speaker 3: then there are other key components that can help people
Speaker 3: be more resilient, like people who are flexible in their thinking,
Speaker 3: people who are able to reframe things positively, people who
Speaker 3: are able to offer people social support or get social
Speaker 3: support themselves, people who have a sense of humor. Like,
Speaker 3: think of resilience as sort of this umbrella and then
Speaker 3: underneath it that they're all these little things, and optimism
Speaker 3: is sort of one of the key five or six
Speaker 3: things that all feed into resilience, and up until now
Speaker 3: nobody really paid attention because they're like, all, right, social support,
Speaker 3: I can work on, I can try to learn how
Speaker 3: to ask for help, right, I can kind of reframe
Speaker 3: my negative thinking, maybe with the help of a good therapist.
Speaker 3: But what is this optimism nonsense? Right? Like, it's like
Speaker 3: either you have it or you don't. And if you
Speaker 3: don't have it, First of all, if you have it,
Speaker 3: are you like we were talking about toxically positive, Like yeah,
Speaker 3: all figured itself out? Or are you just negative? And
Speaker 3: then there wasn't nobody realized that it was something actionable,
Speaker 3: that optimism is a skill, that it's a tool that
Speaker 3: it can be learned, it can be taught, and it
Speaker 3: can be practiced, and our life depends on it. Because
Speaker 3: there is so much robust study that shows that people
Speaker 3: who are optimists, so you know, if you're blessed to
Speaker 3: have these genes, you can benefit from it so that
Speaker 3: you live longer ten to fifteen percent longer. Optimists are healthier,
Speaker 3: they make more money, they have longer lasting relationships. So
Speaker 3: there's so much robust science now and data to back
Speaker 3: up the benefits of optimism. But up until now, until
Speaker 3: this book, no one told us how to do it.
Speaker 3: And so that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: You're saying it's genetic. Optimism is genetic.
Speaker 3: Only one component though, So this is what I learned
Speaker 3: in my research. Optimism is genetic, but only twenty five percent.
Speaker 3: The rest seventy five percent is up to us. So
Speaker 3: these research, Yeah, it is really like fascinating what I learned.
Speaker 3: So researchers in twenty eleven at the UCLA Medical Senator
Speaker 3: did some research and they found that there's a gene
Speaker 3: that actually corresponds with optimism, and if you have this
Speaker 3: particular variant, you're set. You're going to see things positively.
Speaker 3: And that's what optimism is is, in any number of
Speaker 3: possible outcomes, you always envision, imagine the more favorable one.
Speaker 3: People who aren't born with this gene or a variant
Speaker 3: of it, have a tendency to pa negative thinking and depression.
Speaker 3: But to me, the more interesting part was not which
Speaker 3: gene you were born with. What was the fact that
Speaker 3: people who had this optimism gene, so to speak, had
Speaker 3: specific skills, so they were more likely to ask for help.
Speaker 3: They were better at regulating their emotions and coping skills.
Speaker 3: And I was like, I'm already doing this with my patients, right,
Speaker 3: but I'm doing this with patients who've already gone through
Speaker 3: trauma the other shoe has already dropped, so to speak,
Speaker 3: and who have come in asking for help, the big
Speaker 3: tea of trauma, life threatening type of thing. But what
Speaker 3: about all the little teas, the everyday the disappointments, the
Speaker 3: job loss, the breakup. What about that? What about those folks?
Speaker 3: They may not have a big enough quote trauma to
Speaker 3: bring them into help, some of them because they have
Speaker 3: stigma and barriers will never come to seek help. How
Speaker 3: do we take what we learn about optimism the genetic
Speaker 3: kind and then turn it into a set of practices,
Speaker 3: because really, that's what the researchers found, is that there
Speaker 3: are skills that optimists do. It's not magic. It's really
Speaker 3: not magic. Some people are just gifted and they're born
Speaker 3: with this natural tendency, right. But really, what you find
Speaker 3: in the brain when you do brain scans is that
Speaker 3: people with optimism, they have more activity in a certain
Speaker 3: part of their brain, in the left part. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: you can see. So if I gave you an exercise,
Speaker 3: and if you're an optimist, you're gonna be like, I
Speaker 3: show you a picture of a car accident. Na, na, Na,
Speaker 3: They'll get fine, they'll get medical treatment, we'll go back
Speaker 3: to work three days, three days. The pessimists will see
Speaker 3: the same thing, and they're going to have more activity
Speaker 3: in the right part of the brain, and they're gonna
Speaker 3: be like, Nah, they're not going to get better. It's
Speaker 3: going to take them three months. They're not going to walk,
Speaker 3: their wife is going to leave them as a result. Like,
Speaker 3: they'll just project the worst case and you can see
Speaker 3: it on their brain scan.
Speaker 1: So the person that is a pessimist, is it because
Speaker 1: maybe it's been environmental They just had a lot of
Speaker 1: bad cards dealt to them, trauma, abuse.
Speaker 3: Yes, percent, What a great question, and I love what
Speaker 3: you're asking me because you're right, it's all of the above.
Speaker 3: Like some of us just from the moment were born,
Speaker 3: were hardwired. It could be intergenerational traumas to think of,
Speaker 3: like our parents themselves were abused, were neglected, were incarcerated,
Speaker 3: had untreated mental illness, substance abuse. So all of this
Speaker 3: what we call like they call them adverse childhood events.
Speaker 3: And it could be your parents getting divorced, your parent
Speaker 3: not getting treated for illness, your parents fighting a parent,
Speaker 3: leaving a parent, getting anything. And all of us probably
Speaker 3: have at least one of these, and you know something something,
Speaker 3: everybody's got something. So pessimism can come from your parents
Speaker 3: having experienced trauma and it's already kind of baked into
Speaker 3: your own genes. It could be the mental health history
Speaker 3: in your family that there's people in your family that
Speaker 3: have depression and it's been passed on to you. And
Speaker 3: then the cards you're dealt one hundred percent, But the
Speaker 3: thing is in spite of all of this what we
Speaker 3: call genetic loading. That you might have had a family
Speaker 3: history of pessimism, of depression, your own history of trauma,
Speaker 3: you can still change the way you look, because when
Speaker 3: you change the way you look, your life changes, your
Speaker 3: outcomes changes. And that's how optimism differs practical optimism, because
Speaker 3: it's not just having a positive outlook, it's turning those
Speaker 3: positive outlooks into positive outcomes through action.
Speaker 1: Wow, you've said so much as far as intergenerational trauma
Speaker 1: and how a woman carrying it can it can be
Speaker 1: in the womb and passed down. I'm like, Lork, can
Speaker 1: we inject some positivity into the.
Speaker 2: Sperm and the egg?
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: Can we inject some skill?
Speaker 1: Some starburds something so that because it's like, it's unfair
Speaker 1: to that child.
Speaker 2: They're just like, I'm just here.
Speaker 1: And as a result of me involuntarily being here, I
Speaker 1: have depression. So even for me, I have dealt with depression.
Speaker 1: I have found a way where if there is an
Speaker 1: event that's caused me to well, Okay, So for instance,
Speaker 1: this June twenty twenty three, I went through something in
Speaker 1: some friendship but I noticed maybe it was depression, but
Speaker 1: I got physically ill. My depression has been the type
Speaker 1: where it puts me in the bed for days.
Speaker 2: I don't eat, I'm not.
Speaker 1: Able to wash up, and just normal hygiene things. So
Speaker 1: I was trying so hard. Nope, you're not going to
Speaker 1: go back there. You're not going to go back there.
Speaker 1: To the point where I think my response was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're feeling this hurt, and maybe you're feeling hurt or
Speaker 1: betrayed or overlooked or misunderstood. I got physically ill talking
Speaker 1: to my mother about people and my family with depression.
Speaker 1: She's had depression, her sister had depression, but I feel
Speaker 1: like it was situational because she had a child that
Speaker 1: was still born. But we looked at my father and
Speaker 1: she admitted that it's a possibility that it had he
Speaker 1: been diagnosed, him and his.
Speaker 3: Father, so my grandfather.
Speaker 2: And my dad would have been bipolar.
Speaker 1: So then here I come, and I think all of
Speaker 1: my siblings have dealt with some form of depression, but
Speaker 1: mine started in the seventh grade, and I'm like, what
Speaker 1: do I have to be depressed about in the seventh grade.
Speaker 1: So hearing you and other psychiatrists talk about how it
Speaker 1: can be passed on passed down or I was bullied,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying me not knowing how to respond
Speaker 1: to bulled maybe that can make a child depressed. I
Speaker 1: would love for you to just help us unpack I
Speaker 1: guess what I'm talking about, especially talking about depression so
Speaker 1: young in the seventh grade, but the whole genetic piece
Speaker 1: of that. Yes, you know, I said a lot by
Speaker 1: the way.
Speaker 3: You know, but thank you so much for first of
Speaker 3: all being so open about it, because we need we
Speaker 3: need this, you know, like when someone looks at you
Speaker 3: like they would never know, like if they didn't know
Speaker 3: your story, they would just say she's fabulous, like things
Speaker 3: have worked out for her, like nobody would ever think.
Speaker 3: And that's the problem is people think that these two
Speaker 3: things are incompatible with each other. They almost put people
Speaker 3: in two buckets, like you're either successful or you've had depression,
Speaker 3: Like they don't put it together them successful people often
Speaker 3: live with depression and it's and and all the success
Speaker 3: they achieved might be in spite of it or like
Speaker 3: working really hard to fight it or to not let
Speaker 3: it take over. So thank you for sharing that. And yes,
Speaker 3: so you know it's very interesting. Depression is a very
Speaker 3: complex illness in that now we're getting more understanding that
Speaker 3: the inflammation can be a part of it. So like
Speaker 3: our things like our diet can play a role. Exercise
Speaker 3: can help boost and kind of mitigate some of the
Speaker 3: symptoms of depression by increasing dworphans in the brain and
Speaker 3: serotonin and certain chemicals BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factors. So
Speaker 3: there's all these things that can help us kind of
Speaker 3: like fight against this maybe genetic predisposition, because when you're
Speaker 3: talking about untreated bipolar disorder in the family, bipolar disorder
Speaker 3: is highly highly like what we call genetically like transmitted
Speaker 3: or heritable and like passed on and from parent to child.
Speaker 3: And what we also see is that people who have
Speaker 3: bipolar disorder in the family often will also have first
Speaker 3: degree relatives, so like a sibling or a child which
Speaker 3: has just straight up depression unipolar depression, like bipolar is
Speaker 3: both the mania and then the low the high highs
Speaker 3: and the lo lows, and unipolar is just the lows.
Speaker 3: So definitely, it's like it's like for you, like it
Speaker 3: sounded like hitting from both sides, Like you know, you've
Speaker 3: got the dad and the grandparent and the mom and
Speaker 3: your mom's sisters, so it's understandable. Like the likelihood or
Speaker 3: the chances of the child having it if both parents
Speaker 3: have had something in the form of a mood disorder
Speaker 3: is absolutely very high. And then you add in environmental
Speaker 3: pressures of the like the bullying, which is very damaging,
Speaker 3: like bullying one percent increases your risk for all sorts
Speaker 3: of problems like anxiety, depression, academic challenges. Because Michelle, one
Speaker 3: of our fundamental needs as human being is belonging and
Speaker 3: knowing that we matter to our peers, to feel like
Speaker 3: we fit in and to feel like we have a
Speaker 3: place in our society and in our community. And so
Speaker 3: absolutely there's no reason why a seventh grader couldn't have depression,
Speaker 3: especially if it's in the family.
Speaker 2: To begin with, that's so good, that's so good.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you're at that age, you don't
Speaker 1: have the language. I didn't have the language in the
Speaker 1: nineties for depression. I knew of loopus cancer. Just trying
Speaker 1: to think of things family members have gone through, maybe
Speaker 1: pneumonia at that time, aids what.
Speaker 4: Depression, Yeah, no, part of it, no, And culturally yeah,
Speaker 4: and culturally right like mm hmm, like communities of color
Speaker 4: it's just not talked about, it's not understood, it's frowned upon.
Speaker 3: Their stigma. They're shame. There's blame, and like how can
Speaker 3: we also forget like just the role like I think women, right,
Speaker 3: Like women go through so much, so much is expected
Speaker 3: of them. They are the matriarchs in many of our communities,
Speaker 3: and so I feel like we become each other's support system.
Speaker 3: But like there's so many and you have to be tough, right,
Speaker 3: you have to put on a tough face, a brave face.
Speaker 3: That so much is like you are the leader and
Speaker 3: you are the pillar in your community. Right, So, like
Speaker 3: when I think about like moms and aunts, they're cooking,
Speaker 3: their home is open, people are coming in, and like
Speaker 3: you don't even get a minute. You don't have the
Speaker 3: luxury of being depressed, Like depression can be seen as
Speaker 3: a luxury sometimes, right, Like you know, get up, pick
Speaker 3: it up, move it. People are relying. You've got kids
Speaker 3: to take care of. Like, so I feel like there's
Speaker 3: a lot of layers and culture plays and ethnicity plays
Speaker 3: a big role in this whether you're allowed to even
Speaker 3: be depressed.
Speaker 1: So culturally, are you finding a certain culture more optimistic
Speaker 1: than others?
Speaker 3: You know, you know, it's such a great question because
Speaker 3: they what they were finding with this genetic study is that,
Speaker 3: for example, Asians, they were thinking, may be more likely
Speaker 3: to pessimism and depression. And I find that so interesting
Speaker 3: because just yes, there's a genetic component to it, but
Speaker 3: there's also like culturally, like racism, bias, discrimination, all of
Speaker 3: this affects our biology. When we're experiencing that we don't
Speaker 3: we're not made to feel like we belong, whether it's
Speaker 3: on a cultural level, maybe it's the color of our skin,
Speaker 3: or we're just bullied because for no reason, and all
Speaker 3: of that. I put that in a similar bucket where
Speaker 3: it starts to chip away at our morale, you know,
Speaker 3: and something like nine to eleven terrorism can do that.
Speaker 3: It chips away at your morale, your sense of safety.
Speaker 3: You're like, you feel threatened, someone is out to get me,
Speaker 3: someone doesn't have my back. I'm not safe, I'm not protected.
Speaker 3: People don't like me. And however you want to call that,
Speaker 3: whether it's bullying in seventh grade, or whether it's like
Speaker 3: I'm a woman of color moving in the world and
Speaker 3: the world doesn't see me as equal to them, you know,
Speaker 3: any number of things, and I feel like when you
Speaker 3: look at people's chromosomes, what we find is that there's
Speaker 3: more stress. They're telomeres, which are the ends of the chromosomes.
Speaker 3: These pieces end up getting oxidative stress, and they end
Speaker 3: up becoming shorter, and it makes our biological age older
Speaker 3: than our actual chronological age. So like if you're thirty
Speaker 3: thirty five, yep, you and if someone looked at your chromosomes,
Speaker 3: I'll be like, you look like a fifty year old.
Speaker 3: Like on the inside, Oh.
Speaker 1: I want, I want you to look at my chromosome.
Speaker 3: I want to get We will have extra you know,
Speaker 3: glasses and visions hopefully for that. But when they do
Speaker 3: the genetic testing, they'll look and you know what really
Speaker 3: is interesting shell It's like something like meditation can prevent
Speaker 3: that oxidative stress. So they found moms. They put young
Speaker 3: moms who are undergoing a lot of stress, and they
Speaker 3: put one in like a control group, and they didn't
Speaker 3: do anything for them, and then they put another one
Speaker 3: in like a meditation mindfulness group, and those women, over
Speaker 3: time showed a younger biolog like comparatively to those who
Speaker 3: did nothing, a younger biological age because the meditation protected them.
Speaker 3: So just because they are all these forces and factors,
Speaker 3: and it's understandable why people are feeling down these days,
Speaker 3: like inflation, war, right, like our country is, you know, strife.
Speaker 3: There's so many things happening politically. We don't feel protected
Speaker 3: and safe by and taken care of by our leaders.
Speaker 3: We don't have health care as a basic we don't
Speaker 3: have education as a basic right. Like to me, the
Speaker 3: marker of a humane society is providing people their basic needs.
Speaker 3: And when we look at like the World Happiness Index,
Speaker 3: who are these top five countries? Who are these top ten?
Speaker 3: The Scandinavian countries are always winning because women have rights, right,
Speaker 3: they have positions and boards. So you can't have half
Speaker 3: your population. If half your population as women be neglected,
Speaker 3: left behind, not being given options, and then you don't
Speaker 3: give them healthcare on education, look like you're screwed as
Speaker 3: a society, you know. So I'm like, I'm pretty impressed.
Speaker 3: I'm pretty impressed that Americans for the most part, are optimistic.
Speaker 3: Of all countries I heard that like certain parts of
Speaker 3: the world where women don't have rights, you know, the
Speaker 3: optimism and the hot happiness fall, like in Afghanistan, they
Speaker 3: are like the lowest on the happiness index, and happiness
Speaker 3: and optimism are not quite the same. But this idea
Speaker 3: that I have hope for better tomorrow, right, Like, I'm
Speaker 3: impressed because I feel like, generally speaking, maybe compared to
Speaker 3: other countries in the United States, we do women. You know,
Speaker 3: I feel blessed enough, even coming from an immigrant family,
Speaker 3: being a woman of color. Yes, I'm still grateful for
Speaker 3: whatever opportunities I've had that I know I wouldn't have
Speaker 3: had in other places. So as much as there's wrong
Speaker 3: in this country, there's also a lot of positivity and
Speaker 3: right So we have to balance it the good and
Speaker 3: the bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's something that you were talking about, say
Speaker 1: like women in Afghanistan who know they want rights. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I can imagine wanting something that you know you're
Speaker 1: supposed to have, you know is a right. So I'm
Speaker 1: with you when you say you can understand why there's
Speaker 1: no optimism, there no happiness there going through the motions,
Speaker 1: which was a question that I have for you a
Speaker 1: little later, So say what we were just talking about
Speaker 1: women in certain parts of the world world who don't
Speaker 1: have rights, or people in America who don't have access
Speaker 1: to healthcare and education, but you're told that, no matter
Speaker 1: how dire or difficult a situation is, you should maintain
Speaker 1: a positive mindset. And this is coming from verywellmined dot com.
Speaker 1: They were talking about toxic positivity, why it's harmful, and
Speaker 1: what to say instead. Well, we're not going to go
Speaker 1: through that anyway, but so for those of you listening,
Speaker 1: you're like toxic positivity. So toxic positivity apparently is the
Speaker 1: belief that, no matter how dire or difficult a situation is,
Speaker 1: people should maintain a positive mindset. But in this article,
Speaker 1: it's saying that it's toxic to always think positive. So
Speaker 1: as we're talking about you don't have health care, you
Speaker 1: don't have education, you're living paycheck to paycheck. I was
Speaker 1: serving at a food pantry in Florida a few months ago,
Speaker 1: and there were people that had what you would consider
Speaker 1: to be newer model cars. One woman said, I work
Speaker 1: at well, she works at a certain delivery logistics company,
Speaker 1: and she said, I'm still living paycheck to paycheck and she's.
Speaker 2: In the line to get food.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: But you want to tell me to be positive, So
Speaker 1: what is your take? Is there is that or such
Speaker 1: thing as being yes too positive?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and you know it's it's telling someone to
Speaker 3: just get over things, to look on the bright side,
Speaker 3: everything will work itself out, right. Those are the toxic
Speaker 3: positive statements where you may be well intentioned, but maybe
Speaker 3: you just don't know the right thing to say to
Speaker 3: somebody and so instead you said, like, just get over it,
Speaker 3: and that makes them feel dismissed. And you know, toxic
Speaker 3: positivity is telling someone to look on the bright side
Speaker 3: without really understanding the gravity of what they are going
Speaker 3: through and with out validating their experience. So a more
Speaker 3: helpful statement would be to acknowledge the hardship, to say, like,
Speaker 3: I see how hard you're working. I see how challenging
Speaker 3: this is. This must be extremely frustrating, and at the
Speaker 3: same time so recognizing the reality of the situation, which
Speaker 3: can be quite dark and grave and devastating. Like sometimes
Speaker 3: when I have patients who tell me something really horrible
Speaker 3: that has happened or happening, Like if I were to
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, man, just get over it, that's not
Speaker 3: going to work, they'll be like, you know, peace out,
Speaker 3: I'm not coming back to you. What do you mean,
Speaker 3: you know, just get over it, right, So you have
Speaker 3: to sit with them and grief. Grief is not just
Speaker 3: about the things that you've lost, but there are also
Speaker 3: the things that you never gained, maybe the milestones in life,
Speaker 3: like during the pandemic, people didn't get to celebrate a graduation,
Speaker 3: a retirement party, or they didn't get to say their
Speaker 3: last goodbye to a loved one who might have been
Speaker 3: in the hospital and dying. Right, So it's not just
Speaker 3: things that are lost, but it's also things that you
Speaker 3: never had that you wish or wanted. So what you're
Speaker 3: talking about, Michelle, like the sort of paycheck to paycheck life, like,
Speaker 3: that's that's where we're at. You know this, The studies
Speaker 3: show that even people were making like a fit let's
Speaker 3: say family for household income is like two hundred twenty
Speaker 3: five thousand these folks, which is triple the meeting income
Speaker 3: in the United States, they still can't make it, you know,
Speaker 3: sort of day to day And when I look at
Speaker 3: like private for example, when I talk to people who
Speaker 3: are in Europe and they're like, oh my, I went
Speaker 3: through this fabulous education. I only paid like, you know,
Speaker 3: the equivalent of four or five thousand out of my
Speaker 3: pocket in Euros the whole year. And they're like, you know,
Speaker 3: in the United States, this would have been an eighty
Speaker 3: thousand dollars a year undergrad tuition, And I'm just like,
Speaker 3: there's no world in w which our undergraduation should be
Speaker 3: that kind of money. That is like serious money, and
Speaker 3: it just makes me sad, and really hard working people
Speaker 3: just you need to catch a break so that you
Speaker 3: can get out from underneath debt and you know, and
Speaker 3: be able to get to the next level. Like you,
Speaker 3: if you don't have the backing, you're not even going
Speaker 3: to be able to get the education that might help
Speaker 3: you move to the next level. So you know, it's
Speaker 3: not an easy thing. But at the same time, I say, like,
Speaker 3: don't give up hope, Like practical optimism is about Okay,
Speaker 3: if Plan A isn't going to work, I'm going to
Speaker 3: go down the list to Plan b CD all the
Speaker 3: way to Z. You know, can I get a job
Speaker 3: that can have let's say, as one of their benefits
Speaker 3: tuition reimbursement, college loan forgiveness. Are they willing to pay
Speaker 3: for night school? Is there a course that I can take?
Speaker 3: Because a lot of times I feel like we also
Speaker 3: put walls up. We don't want to admit that we're struggling,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's financially or job wise. And I
Speaker 3: feel like that's kind of where we get in our
Speaker 3: own way, where we're not asking for help because we
Speaker 3: don't want to admit to somebody else that we look
Speaker 3: like we have it all put together, right. We've got
Speaker 3: the newest iPhone, we've got the fancy cars you talked about,
Speaker 3: like the designer, right, so when we look head to toe,
Speaker 3: nails are done, all of that, and inside we're like,
Speaker 3: oh man, I don't I don't know if my bank
Speaker 3: account is going to bounce, you know. So it's this
Speaker 3: idea of like maintaining appearances that that really scares me
Speaker 3: because not only you're doing yourself a disservice financially, but
Speaker 3: also mental health wise.
Speaker 2: That's so good.
Speaker 1: Well, in your book Practical Optimism, you give us tools
Speaker 1: and techniques to help us reach financial fitness and relationship goals.
Speaker 1: So switching gears here for a minute when we're talking
Speaker 1: about toxic positivity, But is it okay for that person
Speaker 1: to be optimistic? But they're like, I'm living paycheck to paycheck,
Speaker 1: but I know things are going to get better.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I would say hold on, And in that case,
Speaker 3: the optimism is not toxic. It's actually survival. It's actually
Speaker 3: pushing you to keep going tomorrow because you have the
Speaker 3: hope and the faith and the belief that things are
Speaker 3: going to get better. I always say hope is not
Speaker 3: just a noun, it's also a verb. So you can't
Speaker 3: just hope and wish and want for things good things
Speaker 3: to come to you.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Part of developing an abundance mentality is absolutely having a
Speaker 3: positive outlook. That's turning those positive outlooks into positive outcomes
Speaker 3: by creating an action plan. Who am I gonna call?
Speaker 3: Who am I gonna ask for help? Who's gonna take
Speaker 3: a chance on me? If I got rejected? Am I
Speaker 3: gonna take a break, break and a breather, And I'm
Speaker 3: gonna come back out tomorrow and put on this is
Speaker 3: what're putting on? A strong face is not the worst
Speaker 3: thing in the world, because it means you you pick
Speaker 3: yourself up, you doust yourself as you know, I'm telling
Speaker 3: I'm telling you know like that that such a beautiful line,
Speaker 3: you know, like from you know, I think it was
Speaker 3: a Oliah.
Speaker 1: Pick yourself, yes, yeah, dust yourself off and try again again.
Speaker 3: And by the way, I should tell you your music
Speaker 3: has had you know, your music your spirit, like everything
Speaker 3: that you have done by yourself with Destiny's Child, just
Speaker 3: you bring so much love and beauty and positivity into
Speaker 3: the world. So thank you. I was I was a
Speaker 3: kid and I have to growing up listening to you know,
Speaker 3: in high school and all of it.
Speaker 2: And just so you're am I am I older than you?
Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying is.
Speaker 3: I think you're younger, but you know when you're when
Speaker 3: you see someone so fabulous, you're like, they must be
Speaker 3: more experienced, they must be more accomplished. But I've been
Speaker 3: telling you so funny.
Speaker 1: It's that I am in the age where I do
Speaker 1: have to accept people are saying I grew up listening
Speaker 1: to your music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Put you feel good. It's a possibility you could have
Speaker 1: been older than me but still grew it growing listening
Speaker 1: to the music. And it's okay, listen, doctor Barma. I
Speaker 1: am optimistic as it relates to aging. I'm excited about it.
Speaker 1: I'm excited about all the collagen pills and drinks and
Speaker 1: all the things that I can that are gonna keep
Speaker 1: me looking looking good, y'all. I promise you this is
Speaker 1: a part of optimism that I feel like optimism can
Speaker 1: be fun. It's not dismissing reality. But it's also for me.
Speaker 1: Optimism for me has been the track record, meaning have
Speaker 1: you gotten through heartbreak? Have you gotten through financial stress?
Speaker 1: Maybe you say you got through financial stress because maybe
Speaker 1: you're like you're stewarding the finance is better. Maybe you're
Speaker 1: ordering less on certain apps you know, you're you're cooking
Speaker 1: more so, or you're just trying to optimism in the
Speaker 1: reality of what's going on. I just want us wanted
Speaker 1: to just look at a circumstance and be like, I
Speaker 1: can be opts domistic.
Speaker 2: I got through that.
Speaker 1: I got through that, I grew from it, and I'm
Speaker 1: excited too, Doctor Varma, that you share that a strong
Speaker 1: foundation of mental health is built on key habits. Okay,
Speaker 1: the four ms of mental health mindfulness, meaningful engagement, movement
Speaker 1: and mastery as it relates to COVID. And what you
Speaker 1: saw is that something of those four ms. Was that
Speaker 1: something that you could share during that time and now
Speaker 1: past COVID, we are we're still seeing the effects of that.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so you know I had to come up
Speaker 3: with this really in a very quick way. So in
Speaker 3: twenty April twenty twenty, New York was about to hit
Speaker 3: its peak and Global Citizen called me and they were like,
Speaker 3: we're having all these fabulous people come on TV, you know,
Speaker 3: Elton John and Rolling Stone, Oprah Gale whatever. I was like, great,
Speaker 3: I'll be watching the show and they're like, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: who want you to be in the show. I was like,
Speaker 3: I don't sing, I don't dance. I don't know what
Speaker 3: you want from me. And I'll be on my couch
Speaker 3: like the rest of us and they're like no, no, no,
Speaker 3: So you're going to come on and talk about something
Speaker 3: positive and hopeful and then give people strategies and yaha.
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh great. So like I have
Speaker 3: an hour and they're like no, no, you have fifty
Speaker 3: nine seconds. And I was like fifty nine seconds? How
Speaker 3: am I going to and carry? Washington was actually introducing me,
Speaker 3: and I was like fifty nine seconds first of all
Speaker 3: to follow her and I love her at work, and
Speaker 3: then I was like, okay, well what do I say
Speaker 3: that's going to add value? And that's where I came
Speaker 3: up with. I was like, okay, in fifty nine seconds,
Speaker 3: if I could impart the CrOx of what good mental
Speaker 3: health is. So, look, it's not going to substitute therapy,
Speaker 3: the individual work that's done one on one when somebody
Speaker 3: really investigating to know you. That's not going to take
Speaker 3: the place of it. But what do I tell my patients?
Speaker 3: So even when they come to me and they're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I went through a job, books, I went through divorce,
Speaker 3: I'm still taking a three sixty inventory about their life
Speaker 3: and I want to know about their diet and their
Speaker 3: habits and their friendships. So if I had to break
Speaker 3: down good mental health in fifty nine seconds, and we
Speaker 3: have a few more mindmentes of that. But meaningful engagement
Speaker 3: is my favorite. What I love about that is telling
Speaker 3: people there's two levels of relationships. There's the social snacking,
Speaker 3: the micro connections, which is like the barista, the dog walker,
Speaker 3: making superficial connections. That is just as important. The activity partner.
Speaker 3: Maybe have a friend that you go cycling with or
Speaker 3: go to a power yoga class with like that is
Speaker 3: totally okay and necessary. Activity partners. We need those. You're
Speaker 3: at work, the water cooler, at the elevator, talk to people,
Speaker 3: make eye contact, smile, ask them how they're doing, Listen
Speaker 3: wait for the response, say something meaningful back, or just
Speaker 3: say I hear you. You know if you don't know
Speaker 3: the right thing. So that's social snacking. That's the micro connection.
Speaker 3: That's part of meaningful engagement. But also I want people
Speaker 3: to go deep, have the one on one sit down,
Speaker 3: how are you doing? And then be real take the
Speaker 3: mask off, because so many of times we're posturing and posing.
Speaker 3: Everything is great, my relationship is great, my money is great.
Speaker 3: This is the biggest If I were to be like,
Speaker 3: what is one of the biggest causes of unhappiness. It's
Speaker 3: this need to seem like we're successful and that we
Speaker 3: have it all together, and that is getting in the
Speaker 3: way of real, authentic, honest conversations between people. So go deep,
Speaker 3: be vulnerable, share something about yourself with the trusted people
Speaker 3: in your life, and then also have your light fluffy
Speaker 3: activity partner. Social snacking, micro connections, mindfulness. Just do something
Speaker 3: one at a time. If you're talking to someone, that's
Speaker 3: all you're going to do your washing dishes, that's all
Speaker 3: they can do. And make should listen to your podcast,
Speaker 3: by the way, so you know while they're doing something.
Speaker 3: But whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly. Do it meaningfully.
Speaker 3: You know, if you're going for a walk, be in
Speaker 3: the moment and walking by the way is a great
Speaker 3: way to get out of your own head because it's
Speaker 3: something called optic flow where you have to look left,
Speaker 3: you have to look right, make sure no one's running
Speaker 3: over you with a car, and that gets you out
Speaker 3: of the rumination in your own head. But mindfulness could
Speaker 3: be deep breathing, it could be meditation. There's so many
Speaker 3: benefits of meditation. So we've covered meaningful engagement, we've covered mindfulness.
Speaker 3: You know, I would say part of mindfulness. I was
Speaker 3: interviewed earlier in January by the New York Times by
Speaker 3: a well wellness their wellness section, and it was called
Speaker 3: Oasis moments. So it's about taking five minutes maybe have
Speaker 3: a little meditation corner, a little zenden in your home
Speaker 3: if you will, put a little cushion on the floor
Speaker 3: and create a sacred space where you're just gonna breathe.
Speaker 3: It could literally be in your bathroom. Like I'm a
Speaker 3: mom and when my kids were young, it was the
Speaker 3: only place where maybe maybe two minutes, they would let
Speaker 3: me just be because but pretty soon they'd be knocking,
Speaker 3: you know, soon. But the bathroom floor was kind of
Speaker 3: my zend and it sounds kind of funny, or medical training,
Speaker 3: the utility closet, like I'd be like, I'm gonna go
Speaker 3: get those needles and the I'll be right back, and
Speaker 3: I would just go in there and breathe for two minutes.
Speaker 3: So mindfulness can create. It's about intention and creating a
Speaker 3: sacred space of just going inward and breathing, or if
Speaker 3: you're talking to somebody or whatever, just doing it single mindedly.
Speaker 3: And then there's mastery. And I did two days. It
Speaker 3: was a six day well challenge with the New York Times.
Speaker 3: In the sixth day it was a Friday, and they're like,
Speaker 3: we want you to bring or the fifth or sixth
Speaker 3: day was the end of the week, and they're like,
Speaker 3: how can people unwind without turning into you know, digital
Speaker 3: or watching or streaming. And it was called low stakes
Speaker 3: flow state where mastery you don't have to be a
Speaker 3: master to experienced mastery. They asked me how do you
Speaker 3: experience mastery? And I was like, I'm not very good
Speaker 3: at it, but so all said dancing. And so for me,
Speaker 3: like in medical school, it helped me, like you know,
Speaker 3: I've been like shaking it to like Mark Anthony and
Speaker 3: I love music. Your music, like just music helps me
Speaker 3: just live and be happy and kind of get that
Speaker 3: out of my own academic intellectually, you know, be with people,
Speaker 3: and I love music from that part of the world.
Speaker 3: I feel like it's just very uplifting and yeah, so
Speaker 3: flow and mastery. It could be cooking, it could be gardening,
Speaker 3: it could be painting, it could be a lot of
Speaker 3: people into weaving and needle point like all of that
Speaker 3: sort of creative making something you know and you don't
Speaker 3: have to be good at it and it doesn't have
Speaker 3: to be for anyone else but yourself. And then the
Speaker 3: last one is movement. And this can be in any form,
Speaker 3: but we do know that exercise not only does it
Speaker 3: boost your mood, but it also boosts your sense of
Speaker 3: purpose in life. So if anyone's listening to this and
Speaker 3: they're like, I don't know what I want to do.
Speaker 3: I don't really feel called to do anything big. I'm bored,
Speaker 3: I'm lonely, I'm feeling empty, I don't know I want
Speaker 3: to make a career pivot and I'm not feeling inspired.
Speaker 3: Go for a workout, thirty minute workout, do whatever you
Speaker 3: can weightlifting for women is great. It decreases like again,
Speaker 3: it boosts your cognitive health cortisol. Yeah, totally decreasing the cortisol.
Speaker 3: And you know what's really interesting is if you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I want to be mentally sharper, right after your exercise
Speaker 3: is the best time because your attention, your concentration, your memory,
Speaker 3: everything is boosted. So maybe leave the most difficult task.
Speaker 3: If you have a really annoying email to put together,
Speaker 3: or a project that you're like, I need creativity and
Speaker 3: they don't have it, schedule a workout session and immediately afterwards,
Speaker 3: like bring your laptop, and if you're lucky enough to
Speaker 3: be at a gym or wherever it is, you are
Speaker 3: just hit that most difficult to do less task right
Speaker 3: after exercising. So those are the four ams of mental health.
Speaker 1: That is so I promise you, y'all. After I've had
Speaker 1: a great workout, it never fails. I feel like I
Speaker 1: literally can climb on top of a building rooftop and
Speaker 1: fly nothing harmful.
Speaker 2: Guys.
Speaker 1: I literally feel like I could imaginary wings are gonna
Speaker 1: just come out, and I can just do anything.
Speaker 3: That's all, and.
Speaker 1: Y'all, everything that doctor Sue Varma has mentioned is free.
Speaker 1: You don't have to have a gym membership. You can
Speaker 1: do squats, walk in a park, go find a safe
Speaker 1: space in a park. Everything is free, y'all. My mother
Speaker 1: cracked me up because I was like, Mom, you live
Speaker 1: in a pretty nice neighborhood, like people golf behind your hounds.
Speaker 1: I need you to go work outs, okay, I need
Speaker 1: you to go.
Speaker 2: I need you to go walking.
Speaker 1: And she says, I don't have any walking shoes. I
Speaker 1: go and buy her two different colors of walking shoes.
Speaker 2: Why don't have socks.
Speaker 1: I'm like, if you don't go, you know, it was
Speaker 1: so funny because she was wanting this expensive gym membership.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you're not taking advantage of the beauty of
Speaker 1: go walk with the There's a group of women who
Speaker 1: like to walk. They have their neon vests on, you know,
Speaker 1: walking around the neighborhood. So basically, guys, what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is to be well.
Speaker 2: It does not break your bank. It just means you
Speaker 2: just have.
Speaker 1: To give ten minutes, ten to twenty minutes of your
Speaker 1: day somehow just taking care of you. And again, everything
Speaker 1: you name is free. There are ways to listen to
Speaker 1: music for free. Y'all know how to do it. You know,
Speaker 1: there are ways to whether it's a legal or not,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but there are ways to listen to
Speaker 1: music for free. And I am so glad that you y'all.
Speaker 1: She's given close to forty five minutes here of just
Speaker 1: pouring to us about the importance of being optimistic. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, not dismissing your reality
Speaker 1: and how you treat people who are.
Speaker 2: Going through something.
Speaker 1: Don't dismiss what they're saying. But you can look into
Speaker 1: the face of hardship and maybe look at your track
Speaker 1: record from before and be like, I'm gonna make it
Speaker 1: through this. I made it through the last hardship. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get through this one. Nothing is wrong with that, y'all.
Speaker 1: Doctor Suvarma, I'm so excited about your book.
Speaker 2: Thank you, kudos to you for sharing.
Speaker 1: And last question for you is the podcast is checking
Speaker 1: In and the foundation of it is mental health. How
Speaker 1: have you been doing as it relates to you have
Speaker 1: had to be teach us about being optimistic in the
Speaker 1: face of a lot of traumatic events.
Speaker 2: So for you, what has that done to you?
Speaker 3: Yes, so you know, Michelle, I'm very open about the
Speaker 3: fact that like I see my own mental health as
Speaker 3: something that I have to work on every day, Like
Speaker 3: I don't want to take for granted. Like I feel
Speaker 3: so blessed and called to do the work that I do,
Speaker 3: and a lot of it involves me to roll up
Speaker 3: the sleeves and getting the trenches with the people that
Speaker 3: I work with and go through what they're going through
Speaker 3: so that I can understand their hardship, so that I'm
Speaker 3: not speaking from you know, up here, like you know,
Speaker 3: I'm better. I've been through you know a lot myself personally,
Speaker 3: and I talk about in the book in fact, it's
Speaker 3: the opening chapter of my own personal breakdown, if you will.
Speaker 3: And then how I came to learn about therapy, you know,
Speaker 3: and how that's made me a better therapist, and how
Speaker 3: that's made me a better person, you know, and like
Speaker 3: all of the things that I talk about in the book. Yes,
Speaker 3: I wanted to make sure everything was science backed, and
Speaker 3: I did tons and tons of research, but I also
Speaker 3: didn't want to put a single thing in their book
Speaker 3: that I haven't used on myself and practice on myself
Speaker 3: and with my patient. So the four ms of mental Health,
Speaker 3: I think of it as a prescription and back in
Speaker 3: the day when we had prescription pads and doctors used
Speaker 3: to write them before we went from to electronic, I
Speaker 3: would write on my pad, you were going to exercise,
Speaker 3: you were going to you know. I didn't have the
Speaker 3: language of the four ms of the time, but it was.
Speaker 3: It's now like a non negotiable for me, like I
Speaker 3: am going to finish with you and before I see
Speaker 3: my next patient, I have a little time and I'm
Speaker 3: going to run to the gym every single day. It's
Speaker 3: non negotiable. I'll pick up the phone and call a friend.
Speaker 3: So I put them in my life. You have to schedule,
Speaker 3: think of if you take nothing else from this conversation,
Speaker 3: The easiest thing to walk away with today tangible tool
Speaker 3: and tip is the four MS Mindfulness, Movement, mastery, meaningful engagement,
Speaker 3: And just populate your calendar with when am I seeing
Speaker 3: a girlfriend in person? When am I going to go
Speaker 3: to the gym? When am I going to go for
Speaker 3: ten minute walk? And I hope that your mom listens
Speaker 3: to this conversation and is like, all right, I'm putting
Speaker 3: that neon vest On and I'm putting those bright sneakers
Speaker 3: and I'm going because if I can share with you.
Speaker 3: My mother in law is beautiful, lovely, very healthy, healthy,
Speaker 3: very youthful, but like it's is also like I got
Speaker 3: to push her. She lives across from this beautiful park
Speaker 3: and is in driving distance ten minutes to the beach,
Speaker 3: and those are two things that I love, being in
Speaker 3: nature and the ocean, and I can't get her to go.
Speaker 3: And it's like maybe sometimes people take it for granted
Speaker 3: when they're surrounded by beauty, you know, And I'm just like, please,
Speaker 3: like your health and your life depend on it. So
Speaker 3: I know what it's like to love someone and to
Speaker 3: care about their well being. I went through this with
Speaker 3: my mom as well, and it was really hard. Like
Speaker 3: you can have all the knowledge in the world, but
Speaker 3: if like somebody in your life isn't ready to absorb it,
Speaker 3: Like you know, sometimes you feel like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I'm bangging my head against the wall. But I'm not
Speaker 3: going to give up because I'm a practical optimist. I'm
Speaker 3: going to keep trying. And I hope you keep trying
Speaker 3: with Mama Williams over that.
Speaker 1: Now, that's her, Mama Williams.
Speaker 2: That is amazing.
Speaker 1: So y'all, doctor Rahma is practicing what she literally preaches
Speaker 1: the four Ams, and y'all, her nail color is so pretty.
Speaker 2: I peeped it.
Speaker 1: It's like light or it's so pretty. I'm going to
Speaker 1: try that color.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. I'm so excited about
Speaker 1: your book, Practical Optimism, y'all. Practical Optimism the art, science,
Speaker 1: and practice of exceptional well being. Y'all.
Speaker 2: We deserve it.
Speaker 1: We deserve with so much going on in our environment,
Speaker 1: you deserve to take care of you and have exceptional
Speaker 1: well being, not just sue.
Speaker 2: Thank you for checking in.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much for having me. What
Speaker 3: a great conversation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you are welcome to come back anytime.
Speaker 2: What a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1: I know I learned some things about toxic positivity, and
Speaker 1: you know it's it's okay to remain optimistic in the
Speaker 1: face of adversity, but don't dismiss your reality or what
Speaker 1: someone else's reality is at the moment.
Speaker 2: You know, I loved it.
Speaker 1: Like when somebody loses a loved one, I don't think
Speaker 1: that's the time to say Heaven needed an angel.
Speaker 3: Chi.
Speaker 1: I don't want heaven and have the angel. I want
Speaker 1: my angel here on earth. And I know we say
Speaker 1: things and we do mean well, but you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's okay to not say anything. Sometimes it's okay to
Speaker 1: just sit with the person in their grief or in
Speaker 1: their disappointment. Now, me, personally, I don't want to sit
Speaker 1: too long, you know.
Speaker 2: But I will sit with my friends.
Speaker 1: I'll sit with loved ones, you know, while they're grieving
Speaker 1: or while they're going through But I will say, sometimes grief,
Speaker 1: when you don't go through those stages of loss, grieving
Speaker 1: a lass, it can turn into depression. And so listen, y'all.
Speaker 1: I just ugh, I just know what that season was like.
Speaker 1: I know I personally do not want to go back
Speaker 1: to that season, but I do understand just sitting in
Speaker 1: a moment of grief, sadness, disappointment.
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 1: You want to acknowledge, Hey, this is what it is.
Speaker 1: But I think now we have so many tools that
Speaker 1: are accessible to us so that we don't have to
Speaker 1: stay down too long.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: I just thank y'all so much for checking in downloading
Speaker 1: the episodes. I'm excited and I'm looking forward to season four.
Speaker 1: All right, I love y'all. There's nothing you can do
Speaker 1: about it okay. Now that might be toxic. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I don't care. You're gonna get this love. Checking
Speaker 1: In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and
Speaker 1: The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.