WEBVTT - Sacred Daggers, Part 2 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.319 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:15.880 is Robert. 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.400 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:22.680 two in our series on sacred daggers. In the last episode, 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.360 we talked a bit about the role of daggers beyond 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.720 your average D and D campaign, how they figure into history, 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.319 how they often have cultural significance beyond their simple use 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.920 as weapons, and then we looked at a couple of 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.559 specific artifacts. Rob you talked about the rock crystal dagger 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.559 of the Ivory Lady. Wonderful sequence of words. There a 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.519 fascinating blade found in the grave of a woman in 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.199 modern day Spain who died and was buried during the 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:54.000 Iberian Copper Age, which would have been roughly thirty two 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.760 hundred twenty two hundred BCE. This dagger was interesting for 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.120 a number of reasons, not least of which because of 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:04.800 its beautiful, semi transparent rock crystal blade is a blade 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.759 you can kind of see through, and for its inclusion 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.520 as part of an assemblage of grave goods, indicating that 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.880 the woman buried there was probably a figure of great 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.720 importance and authority. And then we also talked about the 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.199 bush Barrow Dagger, a famous Bronze Age masterwork knife found 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.400 in a barrow grave about a kilometer away from stone Hinge. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.560 You can kind of see stone Hinge from this barrow, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.200 And that one was notable because it also came with 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.160 a particularly rich and interesting collection of other grave goods, 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.120 but also because of the almost unbelievable level of craft 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.040 that went into its manufacture, particularly the way the handle 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.000 had been decorated with around one hundred and forty thousand 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.480 microscopic gold pins, each no wider than a human hair, 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.040 made at a time before magnifying glasses, leading some researchers 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.480 to speculate that it really could only have been made 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:03.240 by children child goldsmiths, since only children would probably have 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.240 had eyesight sharp enough to see and place the studs. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.280 And now we're back today to talk about more rob 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.799 Have you had dagger thoughts since our first episode? 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.800 Yeah? Yeah, I look forward to getting into the dagger 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:18.600 that I'm going to pull out of the drawer next. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.120 But yeah, I was thinking thinking a good bit about 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.800 it over the weekend. Did a little Dungeons and Dragons 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.520 playing over the weekend. Definitely thought about it then, and 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.200 you know, we called out in the last episode two 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.240 to our listeners and said, hey, do you have knives? 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:35.320 Do you want to show us your knives? And people 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.400 have already started doing so and it hasn't gotten weird yet. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.000 So if you want to send us pictures of knives 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.880 that are of great importance to you or you know, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.000 fascination points for you personally, you send us information about it. 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:50.880 We'd love to learn more. 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.840 Who sent us a picture of their knives? I was 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.200 just looking at our email, didn't see any knives. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.680 Oh, somebody slipped a knife in there. I don't have 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:01.880 my email open in the moment, so I can't pull 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.160 it out. But yeah, somebody showed us some knives. 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.880 Did it go to my spam folder? What happened? I'll 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:08.760 have to figure that out. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.560 Well, don't just reach blindly into your spam folder because 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:12.959 there may be knives in there, and I don't know 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:14.600 if there's sheathed or Notugh. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.000 This just reminds me of a horrible story of a 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.679 good friend of mine who used to work as a 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.920 buyer at a used book in music store, who would, like, 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.640 you know, take in and price the items people wanted 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.840 to sell. So he was looking through a bag of 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.560 like old books that somebody had brought in, and just 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.280 like among the books in there was a food processor blade. 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.400 Stuck. Isn't it used as a bookmark? 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:39.560 I don't know. I don't know why it was in 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.840 the bag, but yeah, you got to watch out, got 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:44.040 agers of the profession. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.600 Yeah all right, Well, like we said last time, we 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:48.920 put together a whole list of knives, knowing that we 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:52.880 would not have time in space to cover all of them. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:58.120 But we each sorted around in there and tried to 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.440 find a dagger or something like a dagger that we 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.280 wanted to dig into and discuss. Joe, what did you 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:05.040 pick for today? 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.000 So I would like to talk today about a style 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.160 of blade known as a tumi, which was made and 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:17.120 used by the pre Columbian indigenous peoples of the Central Andes, 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.919 particularly the coastal regions of modern day Peru. So this 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.720 would include the Moche people, the Scan also known as 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.320 the Lambayek, and the Chimu people. So this style of 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:35.160 knife is occasionally called a dagger in the literature, especially 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:39.800 older literature, though in more recent sources it seems people 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.360 more often just say knife or tumi. But as a dagger, 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.719 I think it's interesting because it challenges the boundaries of 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:51.520 the concept, both in shape and in function. So in function, 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.160 I think it challenges the idea of a dagger because 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.560 this item was clearly used for much more than just 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.200 offensive violence. In fact, that seems like if it was 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.120 used for that, that was one of its much less 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.679 common uses. Last time, we made the distinction that while 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.880 a knife usually refers to an all utility blade, a 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:15.160 dagger is usually understood to be something meant for violence. 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.840 The tome was used for all sorts of things, including 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:24.359 ritual sacrifices and as we'll get to, medicine. In shape, 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.240 it also challenges our idea of a dagger because the 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.680 particular to me tradition I'm talking about that the idea 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.440 the word to me actually just in a way means knife. 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.000 I'll get to that in a second. But the form 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.680 of to me I'm talking about challenges the idea of 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:43.240 a dagger because it is not long and pointy. In fact, 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.720 it's almost the exact opposite. The blade could be called 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:51.239 crescent shaped or semi lunar. Generally, it's a bent, semi 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:56.120 circular or half moon shape with the bend running perpendicular 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:57.760 to the length of the handle. 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.240 Yeah. Looking at the vious images of this blade, it 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:02.920 reminds me a little. If I were to compare it 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.919 to a kitchen implement, and I do so with no 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.760 intended disrespect, I would think of one of these kind 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.359 of rolling blades that you use to cut I don't know, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.000 sometimes like yeah, herbs, So, I guess would be the thing. 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.360 Not so much pizza, some of the PiZZ Some pizza 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.720 slicers have a little bit of a curve, but this 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:21.760 one is a sharper curve that. Yeah. If we were 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:23.520 to compare it to a kitchen implement, it would probably 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.600 be those yeah we used to slice up some herbs. 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.520 Yeah. Or think the blade and the pit and the pendulum, yeah, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.400 with the handle coming down the middle and a curved 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.440 blade running perpendicular to the handle. Yeah. So, as I 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.839 just alluded to. The word to me is a word 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.440 in the Ketchua language that just means knife, and so 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.240 it can be used to refer to a broad range 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.440 of sharp instruments or cutting tools made by the pre 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.039 Incan peoples of the Andes and sometimes by the Incas themselves. 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.599 So it is a word with a broader meaning, but 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.880 also it is used to refer to these half moon blades. 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.719 These half moon blades would have been called something else 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.840 by the pre Incan peoples who made them, but the 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.000 ketchwa word used by the Incas has been passed down 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.600 and used in the archaeological context, so that's what we 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.400 call them today. So I figure we should just look 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.880 at a couple of specific examples. Rob I've got some 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.120 pictures that you can look at in the outline here, 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.520 so we can discuss them. But folks at home, I'm 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.720 going to describe them in some detail and then talk 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:31.600 about what we know about these artifacts. So the first 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.960 one I want to look at is an example of 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.760 a beautiful ceremonial to me made by the Chimu culture 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:44.320 of northern coastal Peru sometime between eleven hundred and fourteen SEVENTYCE. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.680 This is a highly ornamented dagger made of gold with 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.320 turquoise inlay. It's about thirty four centimeters long and thirteen 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.040 centimeters wide, with a half moon curved blade at the 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.400 bottom attached to a purpen deday killer shaft, and then 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:03.800 at the top of that shaft, coming up from the 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.720 half moon, a gold humanoid figure with a large broad 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:12.320 head and face in proportion to the body, topped with 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:17.200 a patterned gold head dress with inset turquoise discs and 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:21.320 also turquoise discs gauging the lobes of the figure's ears. 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:23.920 And then we see the posture of the figures. The 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.480 arms are folded in on the stomach, not across each other, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.720 but just coming in toward the belly, button folded in 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.160 on the stomach, feet splayed outwards. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.600 Yeah, it's quite splendid looking. I mean, it is the 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.960 very definition of a ceremonial implement, right, I mean you 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.680 can tell that. Not to say it had no utility. 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.360 I'm sure you're going to you're about to get into that, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.240 but you can tell that, especially as far as the 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:52.160 handle is concerned, style was more. The aesthetics of the 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.520 thing were far more important than like, is this a 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.120 good grip? Can I hold this firmly in one hand 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:58.360 or two hands? And so forth? 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.080 Yeah, this was a symbol of power. So this piece 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.520 is currently held by the Art Institute of Chicago, and 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.880 so I'm going to add some details from their exhibit materials. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.640 The figure depicted on the Toomey handle that the person 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.200 here rendered in gold with the turquoise is thought to 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.160 be we don't know for sure, but is strongly suspected 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.440 by experts to be a legendary founding father known as 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:29.040 name Lap that is spelled in English Naymlap. I hope 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.199 I'm saying that right, and I apologize if I get 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.600 any other pronunciations wrong in this section. I'm doing my best. 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.080 Here a figure known as name Lap who is said 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.680 to have been the hero who settled or colonized the 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:46.240 region of the Lembayak Valley on the coast of Peru 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.880 and formed a powerful ruling dynasty that lasted many generations. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.679 So I was looking up stories about this figure, name Lap, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.439 and I found some more details in a UCLA Today 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.120 article by Cynthia Lee about the work of an archaeologist 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.120 named Christopher Donna And this article was from twenty twelve. 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.640 I believe Donnan studied the relationship between the oral tradition 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.839 of name Lap and the archaeological record at a couple 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.960 of sites in the Lumbayaka Valley. So it is said 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.440 that Name Lap arrived to the coast of Peru on 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.319 a fleet of balsa wood rafts with a large entourage 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.560 that included his wife and many concubines, as well as 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.760 a host of warriors and lieutenants. And he brought with 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:36.560 him a holy idol made of green stone that I 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.200 think in some tellings is said to be his own 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.800 image in a way, that was kept in his palace. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.440 And he seems to have been honored in ways that 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:50.199 are symbolically associated with the sea, receiving fanfare on seashell trumpets, 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.600 and I thought this was interesting. He was so powerful 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.760 and revered that his servants would spread a carpet of 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.920 ground up seashells on the earth wherever he walked. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.040 Ooh nice, I mean that would also just be good 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:03.600 for grip. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.079 Yeah. So it said that when he died in his palace, 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.000 his servants originally kept his death a secret for fear 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.200 of dismaying the people, and when news of his death 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.560 finally spread, people went out wandering the mountains to look 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.599 for him. So, coming back to this specific to me, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.480 assuming that that is the figure depicted on it, name 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.840 lap does seem to have often been depicted in gold 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:33.880 with these turquoise inlays in other representations as well, and 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.160 many of the indigenous peoples of Peru used turquoise to 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.120 symbolize the spiritual power of water and the sky, kind 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.800 of in the same way that gold might symbolize the 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:46.240 spiritual power of the sun. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:47.280 Ah. 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.160 The museum material here says that this ceremonial to me 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.640 would be carried by rulers of the royal dynasty, and 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.000 the way I understand what I'm reading about it, it 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:03.319 sounds like it was a highly value symbolic kingly replica 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:08.480 of the regular semi circular copper alloy or bronze knives 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.600 that would have been used to carry out animal sacrifices. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.040 So I was thinking about this like a tool of 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.240 religious ritual in form. But the question is would this 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.559 specific one, this one held by a member of the 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:29.160 royal dynasty, be used in practice. I couldn't find a 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.320 definitive answer to that, but my best guess based on 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.680 what I'm reading is probably not. It might be symbolic, 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.760 so as a as a gold version of a tool 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.280 used in ritual, it would kind of symbolize the king's 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.560 power over the whole religious enterprise of the culture. Rough analogy, 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:51.440 but kind of like if a Christian king had a 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.160 gold communion chalice and people don't actually drink the wine 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.719 out of this one at the church services, but it 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.320 might symbolize the King's power and relationship to the central 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:02.400 ritual of the church. 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.199 Yeah. Or here's there's another rougher comparison. Again, no disrespect 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.240 intended to anyone out there, but it's kind of like 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.600 if if you go into a kitchen from the late seventies, 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.360 early eighties and there is a decorative jello mold hanging 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.920 on the wall that is not actually used to make. 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.079 Jello, Okay, yeah, but it doesn't have to. 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.800 Be clear, probably doesn't have any kind of religious sentiments 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.360 tied up in it, but is purely decorative. Meanwhile, in 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.480 a drawer somewhere, there is some sort of an implement 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.960 that is used to make jello, an actual cello mold, 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:38.160 a functional jello mold. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.000 Oh yeah. Another one I would think of along those 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.880 lines is like a decorative tea set. Nobody ever actually 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.360 drinks tea out of these, but yeah. 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.480 Yeah, and sometimes it's some cases it's not safe to 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.720 drink tea out of a decorative teapots. Then they might 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:53.800 have a little bit too much lead in them, and 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:54.280 so forth. 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.360 So in terms of how this specific Toomey dagger was 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.400 put together. The museum explains as follows quote. The tomu 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.079 was made with diverse metal working techniques. Solid casting was 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:11.160 used to produce the blade, the face and body, with annealing, heating, shaping, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.960 and then cooling and repousee in which the relief design 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.680 is hammered into a mold from the reverse side. Finally, 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.120 the small ornaments around the top of the headdress were 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:35.840 separately hammered or cast then soldered into place. All right, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.920 so that is the very very impressive gold ceremonial to me. 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:42.920 But I've got another to me for us to look at, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.360 rob a new one. You can see the picture in 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.000 the outline here. I will describe now. This is a 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.240 later artifact from the Inca from some time between fourteen 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:56.960 hundred and fifteen thirty five, also from Peru, made of bronze. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.880 This one is held by the met Museum in New York, 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.080 and it's far less elaborate than the gold knife from 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.160 the earlier Chimu culture. A sort of a simple bronze 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.000 blade curved like a slice from a circle, though it's 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.400 actually by volume less than half of the circle. You know, 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.640 it's not a semicircle. It's I don't know, by volume, 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:18.480 it looks like maybe a fourth of a circle, but 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.400 it's the outer edge, so it's still the curve. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.920 Now, this one really does remind me of the pizza 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.080 slice or the bread slicer that we have in our kitchen. 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:31.320 Oh yeah, yeah, especially because I'm sure it looks more utilitarian. Yeah, 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.960 it has less of the decoration, though it's not entirely 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:38.840 without decoration. So again, it's got a perpendicular handle to 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.520 the blade, and then at the end of that handle 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:46.360 there are four curved talons curling in like the claws 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.840 of an eagle. So the met exhibit points out the 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.120 diverse skills on display in the metal working industry that 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.920 took place at the Incan capital of Cusco, with items 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.600 being made of gold, silver, copper, and bronze, and with 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.280 Toomey's being one of the most commonly represented metal tools 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.640 from that industry. Many of these everyday Toomey's have loops 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:10.840 at the top of the handle. I guess kind of 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.920 like what we see here with the curved bird talons, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.160 and this is taken as an indication that they probably 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.800 hung from something, so people might hang a to me 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.120 maybe on the necklace or on a belt something like that. 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:29.320 The tome is commonly associated with ritual sacrifice, for example 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.520 the sacrifice of lamas during the harvest festival, and this 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.240 association with blood sacrifice goes back thousands of years in 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.640 Indian cultures between the toomey and the animal sacrifice. The 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.560 museum explains the raptor talent motif on the handle in 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.160 terms of the association with sacrifice by saying, quote, the 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.800 eating habits of raptors and vultures give them a natural 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.040 symbolic connection to sacrifice and the world of the dead. 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:57.720 Okay, that makes sense. 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.160 Another thing worth noting is that the half moon tumis 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:05.560 are not only used by humans, at least in storytelling 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:10.239 and artistic representation. They are depicted in the art of 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.240 pre Incan and Deean cultures such as the Moche, the 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.879 chi Mu, and the sikhan as wielded by gods, demi, 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:23.320 gods and supernatural beings, sometimes threatening other beings with the 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:27.760 tumei or indicating that the tumei might be used for decapitation, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.680 which also had ritual significance to multiple pre Incan cultures 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.159 of the region as an act that could bring about 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:40.760 agricultural and ecological rejuvenation. But earlier I mentioned that, apart 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.919 from its role in animal sacrifices and religious purposes, the 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:50.560 half moon shaped tume was also important in indigenous medicines, 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.719 specifically indigenous surgical techniques, including trepanation. 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.960 Oh, a topic we've covered on the show before. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.560 Right, so we've talked about treppenne at some length. I'm 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.560 not going to do a full rehash of the whole 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.360 story here, but the short version is Trepenation is a 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.400 medical procedure practice not only in Indian cultures. Definitely in 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.080 Indian cultures, as we're going to talk about, but it 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.760 practiced in all kinds of cultures around the world all 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.159 throughout history. A very common thing. It is where a 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.800 surgeon cuts or bores or scrapes a hole in the 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.040 skull of a living person, not with the goal of 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.280 killing them, but with the goal of treating a medical 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:37.680 complaint or supposedly enhancing them in some way. The reasoning 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:42.160 behind the procedure varies, but trepienation has been used especially 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.280 to treat head injuries that might lead to swelling inside 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.000 the brain inflammation in the head. So like head injuries 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:54.159 that involve the fracture of the skull arising from accidents 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.680 or violence. This is a big thing that would cause 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.680 somebody to seek trepenation and maybe they get hit in 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.679 the head. There's a fracture and there's some swelling. Some 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.520 bits of bone can be removed and a hole can 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:10.840 be cut to allegedly relieve the swelling. It's also been 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.600 speculated that it may have been used to treat headaches, 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.800 you know, bad headaches, or other things that were thought 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.840 to be the swelling of the brain. Maybe as a 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.720 hypothetical treatment for a variety of mental and neurological conditions, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:28.280 such as epilepsy. But one of the really startling things 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:34.000 about trepnation is in certain times and places, how often 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.120 this procedure was survivable. You know, I would just assume 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.320 that before modern medicine, this is just one hundred percent 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.320 death rate on drilling a hole in the skull. 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because you hear you hear dire stories 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.400 about about other pre modern surgical procedures, and you would 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.080 just assume messing around in the skull essentially with the brain, 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.600 you're going to you're going to run up against the 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:57.400 high death rate. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.600 Yeah, And to be clear, the the survival rate of 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:07.040 a trepidation procedure is wildly different at different times and 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.000 places in history, so you can tell from looking at 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.040 human remains, even before written records, of how successful surgical 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.960 procedures were. You can just tell from looking at remains 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.600 of people who have had this procedure done. Sometimes bone 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.399 has healed over after a trepidation procedure, other times it 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.480 has not. But in cases where the bone has healed over, 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.879 it proves that the patient survived the operation for a 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:38.320 significant time afterwards, dead people don't heal, So of course 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.640 there are lots of times where you know it might 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.840 be a coin flip whether you would survive trepanation. But 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.800 some estimates based on surveys of tripand remains, indicate that 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:52.160 during the late Incan period they had gotten really good 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.920 at this Somewhere around eighty percent of trepanning patients probably 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:57.040 survived the operation. 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:58.080 Oh wow. 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.760 As a point of comparison, in some of the articles 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.040 I was looking at, they compared that to craniotomy similar 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.040 you know, like a removing part of the skull procedures 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.399 in field hospitals during the US Civil War, So you know, 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.520 hundreds of years later where survival rates were roughly half 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.760 of that. Oh wow, so yeah, like they had really 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.440 gotten quite good at this procedure in the late Incan period. 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:27.960 So what tools were used to conduct a tripanning? It 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:29.800 could be any number of things. You would need some 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.880 kinds of scrapers and blades, These would be any number 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:37.440 of obsidian or bronze implements. But the semi circular bronze 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.560 to me was absolutely a common part of the tripanning toolkit. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.919 And this connects to an article I was reading an 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.280 ARS Technica article from twenty twenty two by Keona N. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:53.240 Smith called ancient Peruvian was buried with tools for cranial 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.959 surgery and then good subheader quote. He was also buried 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:02.480 with the partial skulls of two former patients, taking a 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:06.679 little keepsake. Yeah yeah, So the article describes it was 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.400 at the time a recent discovery from a tomb excavated 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.760 in a temple complex at Waca Las Ventanas, which is 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:18.920 an archaeological site in Peru, and this would have been 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.760 a site from the Sican culture or the Lumbayak culture. 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:26.400 The body in the tomb appears to have been that 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:31.320 of a secon brain surgeon, a person specializing in trepanning, 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.399 and we can tell that in part because of the 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.480 tools that were buried with him. These include bronze awls 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:43.640 with wooden handles, needles, and blades, as well also non 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.760 occupation grave goods indicating the burial of a relatively rich 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.600 and high status person. These non occupational grave goods would 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.359 be a gold mask with feathers around the eyes, big 0:22:55.400 --> 0:23:01.280 bronze breastplate, and copper bowls lined with gold. But specifically 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.280 addressing the Toomey, the author of this article rights quote. 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.520 Most of the knives were single edge blades, but one 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.320 was clearly special. The semi circular blade called a toume, 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.440 was a staple in both surgery and ritual sacrifice for 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.320 the Sicon. Their predecessors, the Moche and later the Inca, 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.880 ritual tomes were large and elaborate, but ancient surgeons used 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:28.280 a smaller, more utilitarian version for trepanation. So you might 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.520 have your big, gorgeous gold ceremonial to me that's got 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.080 the picture of a you know, a founding culture hero 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:36.479 on it, or you might have a smaller bronze when 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.160 that you actually used to cut holes in people's skulls. 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:44.280 The article here quotes Sicon National Museum Director Carlos Alera, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:48.320 who says that the museum is trying to compare the 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.320 instruments found in this grave to those that would be 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.880 used by a modern surgeon. One big difference that gets 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.560 called out is material. Of course, you know modern surgeons 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.720 are going to be using modern probably steel surgical knives. 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.159 Actually I didn't even look this up. What are knives 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:07.400 usually made out of for surgery? I assume their steel anyway, 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.840 whatever that material would be. But these surgical knives are 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:15.520 made of copper with a high arsenic content. The reason 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.520 there was high arsenic content was that it helped strengthen 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.560 the metal, so like a copper arsenic alloy is stronger 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:22.879 than a copper one alone. 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:25.960 This will be interesting because we'll get back into this 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:28.399 and the knife we'll talk about in the second half 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:29.359 of this episode. 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.439 To read from the article again, quote two examples of 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:36.560 the surgeon's work also joined him In his grave. Archaeologists 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:40.040 found two frontal bones, the bone that makes up the forehead. 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:43.080 One belonged to an adult, one belonged to a child, 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.640 and neither originally belonged to the surgeon. His was still 0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:49.280 attached to the rest of his skull. Both had been 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:53.360 carefully cut using a classic trepanation technique. So those are 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:56.520 the two keepsakes, you know, pieces of other people's skulls 0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:59.040 taken with him. I wonder what that means. Is that 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:01.240 just like a you know, oh this is a time 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:03.560 I did a really good job, or well. 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:07.159 One wonders if they might have been teaching implements. You know, 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:10.160 if you're bringing your tools, maybe you're bringing your knowledge 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.600 with you. I think of how in various medical professions, 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:19.000 you know, you will practice using you know, some real teeth, 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.480 real bones, some sort or you know, or real other 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.639 actual pieces of a body in order to practice your craft, 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:28.320 and if it's not something that decays, you may keep 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:31.480 that potentially as a as a as a teaching implement 0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:33.320 So yeah, maybe with something like that. 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:35.320 Yeah, I could see that. I mean, I don't know 0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:37.800 if it really work this way, but I wonder that 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:40.200 sort of thing would be useful, almost like tracing paper, 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:43.040 you know, Oh yeah, this is the kind of I mean, 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:47.000 I guess every every injury would be different, though I 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:51.320 know part of the skill of the surgeon involved here 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:54.800 would be knowing where and how to cut, knowing like 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:57.040 what the size of the cut in the skull should 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:00.919 be where to cut to avoid excess bleeding. You know, 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:03.199 these are all important things to know to help the 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:06.919 patient survive the procedure. And it must have been like 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:11.280 part of the answer of like how did these did 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:13.720 the late INCA period end up with these relatively high 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:17.159 survival rates for trepidation because again, think about these other 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:20.359 times when all throughout history where like maybe half the 0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:23.760 people who did this died. The skill of the surgeon 0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:27.359 was probably a very big deal. But another factor cited 0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:30.400 in this article I was talking about is hygiene. They 0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:35.160 must have somehow been practicing a relatively strong hygiene regimen 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:39.160 to do successful surgery without deadly infections on the regular. 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:42.560 Yeah, I was wondering the same thing like that they would, Yeah, 0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:45.000 they would have to at least lock into it, if 0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:49.000 not make significant discoveries about what they should or be 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:53.160 doing before conducting you know, cranial operations. 0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:58.000 Another interesting question is anesthesia. What did what, if anything 0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:00.240 did they use for anesthesia? We don't really know the 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:03.840 answer is kind of an interesting mystery, though this article 0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.080 points to a discovery within the surgeons to him at 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:12.080 Wacallas Fintanas that might contribute knowledge to that, and it 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:14.760 was that the kit that was buried with the surgeon 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:19.920 also included a piece of tree bark, which the curator 0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:23.960 at that museum, Alera, had said, you know, we wonder 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:26.400 if this might be a medicinal bark of some kind, 0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.320 because of course medicinal barks do exist. We don't know that, 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:31.760 to be clear, but we don't We know that there 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:34.679 are some medicinal barks like willow bark, of course is 0:27:34.920 --> 0:27:37.760 anti inflammatory, and so I guess there are questions about 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:39.800 whether this bark might have been something like that. 0:27:40.280 --> 0:27:41.679 Yeah, I mean we're talking about a part of the 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:47.320 world that has rich biodiversity. Yeah, with any number of known, 0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:53.879 unknown or erased, you know, examples of botanical substances that 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:57.920 can be used medicinally. You know what, what sort of 0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:01.960 material to they know about that have been completely forgotten 0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:03.720 and need to be rediscovered and so forth. 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:08.800 Totally, So that's the to me, unlike the dagger you 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:11.919 have in mind in many ways in shape and in function, 0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:14.360 but I think still a pretty fascinating artifact. 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:17.720 Yes, that's a great one and definitely gets into I 0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:20.480 think we kind of tease the idea of sacrificial blades 0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:22.400 a little bit, and this one I think checks off 0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:35.480 that box at least in part. All Right, the blade 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.320 that I'm going to talk about next, it is a 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:42.360 specific blade, and out of talking about the specific blade, 0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:45.280 going to sort of pull out and talk more about 0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:50.320 this style of blade in its entirety. This is one 0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:54.480 of the blades that inspired this series that I was like, Oh, 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:57.600 I should really cover this, But when I started looking 0:28:57.600 --> 0:28:59.120 at it, I realized it was just such a huge 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:03.720 topic because the specific blade I'm going to reference here 0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:08.440 is a chris that is a type of traditional, highly 0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:13.960 stylized Indonesian blade. Generally it's associated with Java, but also 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:17.400 other parts of Indonesia. And when I first started looking 0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:18.760 into it, I was like, oh, this could maybe make 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:20.520 for a nice artifact episode, and then I was like, 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:22.480 oh no, there's too much here. This would have to 0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:25.720 be at least a full episode. And then I quickly 0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.040 realized like it would have to be like multiple episodes 0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:31.880 because one is tempted to compare it to say the 0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:38.120 Samurai sword in terms of the artistry, the technique, the history, 0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:43.160 but in other ways it seems even more complicated than that, 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:46.800 because you have a lot of diverse imagery, and it's 0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:50.360 going to depend on exactly where it was produced, when 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:57.400 it was produced, the details of what everything symbolizes. But 0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:00.680 it is such a fascinating blade because you've probably seen 0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.720 examples of it out there, listener, at the very least 0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:07.440 you would recognize it. The version that is often depicted 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:11.560 and certainly catches the eye is a very wavy blade, 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:18.200 like a highly stylized almost snake shaped dagger, often with 0:30:18.240 --> 0:30:22.480 a highly stylized hilt and a highly stylized sheath, and 0:30:22.640 --> 0:30:25.520 just looking at it like you you know, the mind 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:29.040 run wild, runs wild, you know, whether you know anything 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.680 about the traditions involved here or you know, or you're 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:35.520 you're just coming in completely cold. You know, it's like 0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.320 why is it shaped like that? And you know, why 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:40.720 is the handle like that? And then what are all 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:43.600 these little images that are a part of the blade, 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:47.760 So that in many ways it feels like the ultimate 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:52.360 transformation of a utilitarian implement of some sort of a 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:55.800 tool or weapon into a thing that is just pure 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:59.160 symbol and meaning. Though you to be clear, you still 0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:04.160 could absolutely top somebody with one of these. So I'm 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:06.160 going to be talking about Chris's, but I want to 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:12.480 and that is generally spelled kr I S and in English. 0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:15.959 I'm going to talk specifically though, about the Chris of Nod, 0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:19.440 also known as the Keras of Nod because sometimes Keras 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:23.240 instead of Chris is used, also known as just Nod's Chris. 0:31:23.840 --> 0:31:25.440 Take me off to the land of Nod. 0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:29.320 Okay, let's start with the name. Who is this nod 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:32.360 fellow spelled k n a U D and I'm I'm 0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:35.280 assuming I'm pronouncing that correctly. I looked around for some 0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:38.360 pronunciation guides on this. This is a Dutch name, and 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:41.200 most of what I got back were either specific mentions 0:31:41.240 --> 0:31:45.240 of this blade or insistences that I was misspelling the name, 0:31:45.320 --> 0:31:49.040 which I'm not. In this case, Well, this was the 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:54.000 name of a nineteenth century Dutch physician, and his name 0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:56.280 is only attached to the dagger in question because it 0:31:56.400 --> 0:32:00.520 was gifted to him by paku Alum, the fifth Duke 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:06.320 of the Javanese Duchy of paku Aliman. The duchy still 0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:11.160 co rules in the special region of Jagi Karta in Indonesia, 0:32:11.440 --> 0:32:14.040 and the current Duke is Pacu Alum the tenth. The 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:17.760 Dutch were, of course highly invested in the region, to 0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:21.680 say the least, first via the colonial influences of the 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:25.440 Dutch East India Company. The British then occupied Java from 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:29.800 eighteen eleven through eighteen sixteen, and the Duchy of Pacu 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:33.320 Aliman was established during this period, and when the Dutch 0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:37.240 regained control of Java in eighteen sixteen, the Duchy became 0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:40.560 an independent state of the Kingdom of the Netherlands under 0:32:40.600 --> 0:32:44.680 the Dutch East Indies administration until Indonesia's independence in nineteen 0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:48.600 forty five. Okay, So obviously there is a lot of 0:32:48.720 --> 0:32:54.560 history that I just skimmed pasted really quickly. There's obviously 0:32:54.600 --> 0:32:55.840 a lot of back and forth in a lot of 0:32:55.880 --> 0:32:58.840 nuance there. But hopefully this gives you just an idea 0:32:59.000 --> 0:33:02.440 of why a re old Javanese ruler would have gifted 0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:04.440 an elaborate dagger to a dutch Man. 0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:05.000 Okay. 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:09.560 Doctor Charles Nod here reportedly treated the Duke's son and 0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:13.280 helped him overcome an illness that had some associations with 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:17.400 black magic, and in thanks for treating the sun and 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:21.280 because nod was apparently a student of Javanese mysticism, Pacu 0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:25.160 alumn the fifth gifted him this particular Chris I included 0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:30.760 images here of both Pacu Alum the fifth and Charles Nod. 0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:33.680 I think you'll agree. Charles Nod in this image anyway, 0:33:33.720 --> 0:33:37.280 absolutely looks like a haunted portrait in a haunted mansion. 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:40.200 I assume he's the guy on the left, yes, the 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:44.720 tilting his head slightly forward and looking up with his 0:33:44.840 --> 0:33:47.520 eyes like he's doing an Aphex Twin album cover. 0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:52.080 Yeah, yeah, maybe it's just a product of the scan. 0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:54.680 I think this was I cut this out of a 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:58.040 book I was I was referencing. But yeah, he looks 0:33:58.040 --> 0:33:59.040 a little creepy here. 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:01.320 Flake one of those pictures penny Wise in the book 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:03.200 that comes alive exactly. 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.000 So what does this blade look like? While there are 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:08.640 a lot of images online, you can look up Chris 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:12.160 of Nod and you can see various images for yourself. 0:34:12.520 --> 0:34:15.560 The remains of the iron blade and the blade alone, 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:18.120 it lacks a hill to or a sheath, are still 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:21.640 covered by a thin decorative layer of copper, and it 0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:26.359 is decorated with illustrations from the Hindu epic the Ramayana, 0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:31.160 so one sees figures and vegetation. You can see chariots 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:35.120 in battle, characters from the Hindu epic and so forth. 0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:39.160 According to author and expert David van Duran in his 0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:44.040 book Charles Nod's Karis. Some of the identifiable elements include 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:50.279 the monkey warrior Hahneman, the demon king, Ravna dwarfs or 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:55.200 paquin Kawan. These are the like the clown dwarf servants 0:34:55.239 --> 0:34:59.040 of the hero in Javanese puppet theater, but they're also snakes, 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:04.320 possibly nagas dogs. There's a demon army, there's a monkey army, 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:06.920 and more. I know that sounds like a lot to 0:35:07.000 --> 0:35:09.919 fit on a single blade that again does not have 0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:14.520 an intact hilt anymore, a Hilton handle or anything. It's 0:35:14.640 --> 0:35:16.960 just the blade. But yes, they really do pack that 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:22.000 much detail into this, into this, this highly stylized blade. 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:25.880 It's busy, it's very busy, very Yes, it's like a 0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:27.439 spiritual Wearswaldo. 0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:30.440 Yeah. And we don't even necessarily have all of it. 0:35:30.440 --> 0:35:32.360 There are pieces of it that have fallen away. It 0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:35.440 is not in pristine condition by you know, any stretch. 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:38.200 But what we do have is absolutely remarkable, gorgeous. 0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:38.880 Yeah. 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:41.880 So we'll get more into just what a Chris is 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:44.280 here in a bit. And again this is a topic 0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:46.000 where I'm only going to be able to really dip 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:48.680 our toes into it. But again, the short version is 0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:53.240 that it's a highly decorative, highly stylized, highly symbolic dagger. 0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:57.640 The most famous of these have wavy blades, but they're 0:35:57.640 --> 0:36:01.040 not all wavy, some are st and the Cris of 0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:05.000 Nod is, to be clear, a rather straight blade as well. 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:08.120 It does not have any of the signature waves that 0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:11.160 are often associated with the Chris. The Cris blade has 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:13.960 been produced throughout the islands of Indonesia, but they're especially 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:19.040 prominent in Java, also prominent to a degree in Bali 0:36:19.080 --> 0:36:24.400 as well. So the history of this particular Chris roughly 0:36:24.440 --> 0:36:26.640 breaks down as fall. These are some of the main 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:32.080 the main points in its known history, so according to 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:35.440 an inscription on the blade itself, it was forged in 0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:40.080 at least thirteen forty two CE. This would make it 0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:46.000 a product of the Majapahi Empire, a Hindu Buddhist empire 0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:50.799 that ruled Java in some surrounding territory, ultimately lasting from 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.239 twelve ninety two through fifteen twenty seven, when it was 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:58.360 conquered by the Demak Sultanate. This was just a little 0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:02.160 more than a decade fallollowing first contact in this region 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:05.880 with Europeans. I believe it would have been the Portuguese. 0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:08.319 Then at a much later date it is gifted to 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:11.480 Charles Nod and this would have been the late eighteen hundreds, 0:37:11.920 --> 0:37:14.520 and then it was presumed lost around nineteen oh three, 0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:18.279 but it apparently remained in the family's possession in Indonesia, 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:21.640 was hidden during the Japanese occupation that's forty two through 0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:24.560 forty five, and then the family took the blade to 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:28.760 the Netherlands during the Indonesian National Revolution that immediately followed, 0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:32.000 and it remains to this day time to understand in 0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:38.080 Amsterdam's kit Royal Tropical Institute. So this blade is apparently 0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:43.759 the oldest surviving Chris that has a verifiable age. So 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:46.600 again that's not to say this is definitely the oldest, 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:49.320 like may there are other blades that may be older, 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:53.640 but this is the one that currently has a verifiable 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:56.360 age according to most experts. 0:37:56.920 --> 0:38:00.200 Very helpful that its origins are actually inscribed on it. 0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:02.640 Right or it's thought that this is the origin dat. 0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:05.120 I've also read that it's possible that it's older, but 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.080 given that the dates on there, or at least in 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:10.640 some form is on there, it would mean okay, it 0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:12.560 has to be at least this old. Maybe it's older, 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:15.640 but this it has to be this old, okay. And 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:17.600 now I have to admit I was a bit dubious 0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:21.120 of this claim at first, again knowing nothing about this previously, 0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:24.560 you know, could the oldest surviving example of this tradition 0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:27.279 really have been given away to a foreigner as a 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:30.879 gift and eventually sent away to a European museum. As 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:33.200 it turns out, though, there seems to be a case 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:35.520 for this, a strong case for this, for a few 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:39.640 different reasons, and with a few different caveats For starters, 0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:43.200 there's the base fact that we're dealing with iron based artifacts, 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:45.520 and some of these I should also mention to call 0:38:45.640 --> 0:38:49.239 back to an episode we did previously. Sometimes they use 0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:53.600 meteoric iron in these artifacts as well, But at any rate, 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:57.000 we were talking iron based artifacts in a humid tropical climate. 0:38:57.520 --> 0:39:00.840 So if a blade is not properly protected, it's just 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:03.839 going to naturally deteriorate. Also, as we see in other 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:07.000 blade cultures, such as that of the Samurai sword, the 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:10.200 blade itself was considered the most important and the most 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:15.480 sacred part, and additional parts such as hill sheath so forth, 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:19.240 these were interchangeable and so they might change multiple times 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:23.080 during the lifetime of a particular blade, and this can 0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:28.000 apparently complicate accurate datings of a blade as well. And then, 0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:31.200 as our brief history overview might have suggested to listeners 0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:33.680 were also dealing with the region, they saw a great 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:37.600 deal of upheaval during the colonial period. You had the 0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:41.399 Dutch East India Company, the British and the French were 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:44.959 also involved at different points, and the ensuing conflicts also 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:49.480 pitted various factions against each other. Artifacts were destroyed, lost, 0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:54.200 absconded with, sometimes into private collections. Also, you had blades 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:57.040 that were just outright and neglected. And all of this, 0:39:57.280 --> 0:40:00.759 as we've seen with various cultures impacted by colonialism, led 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:04.560 to a great deal of cultural loss, including material loss. 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:09.040 So the fact that the Chris of Nod could survive 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:13.960 six centuries despite all of this is generally quite remarkable, again, 0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:17.200 especially given all the pivotal moments in its timeline where 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:18.759 it could have just been lost, it could have just 0:40:18.800 --> 0:40:22.719 remained buried, it could have been more neglected than it was. 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:27.000 So apparently we're rather lucky to have this one at all. Now, 0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:29.279 at this point, I want to back up a little 0:40:29.280 --> 0:40:31.560 bit sort of widen and talk a little more generally 0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:36.440 about the chris as a type of blade. One of 0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:39.680 the main sources I turned to for this, in addition 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:44.200 to the aforementioned book, is Introduction to Chris, a Traditional 0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:49.480 Weapon of Indonesia Preserved Lingering Issues of Facts by Purwatou 0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:54.879 and Nurhamada, published in twenty twenty one in the Indonesian 0:40:54.960 --> 0:40:58.839 Journal of English Educational Literature and Culture. So the name 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:04.240 Chris or sometimes keras this is apparently this apparently stems 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:08.200 from an older Javanese word that meant to slice, and 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:13.640 the blade is again often identified by its highly asymmetrical design. 0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:18.160 Generally it's stylized hilt and sheath and in some cases 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:21.840 that wavy snake like blade. Again, not every Chris is wavy, 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:24.480 but many are. And it's one of those things like 0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:26.160 if you pull up like a Wikipedia article about it, 0:41:26.239 --> 0:41:28.480 you're gonna you're definitely gonna see images, or you just 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:31.359 do an image search for Chris, you're going to see 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:34.600 that wavy blade almost saw Like I guess. 0:41:34.480 --> 0:41:37.520 If you if you're looking at an image, I would 0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:39.760 say it almost suggests you're looking at it through water. 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.200 The rippling back and forth of the blade the way 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:45.000 the way it often looks. But yeah, like you said, 0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:46.759 this one does not have that appearance. 0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:50.080 The water ripple comparison, I think is really apt considering 0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:52.960 the amount of skill that went into creating these, and 0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:55.120 so there is that kind of precision that you get, 0:41:55.160 --> 0:41:58.799 that wave like precision. Even more so, like I think 0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:02.000 the snake comparison is all so really important. But yeah, 0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:07.560 way like water ripples, that's nice. And also the snake, 0:42:07.680 --> 0:42:11.440 the naga is also associated with water, so that's that's 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:24.000 a solid comparison as well. So it's said that the 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:27.640 blade was originally a close combat weapon that was treated 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:33.240 with poison. The poison here was known as warrengon, also 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:38.439 known as arsenic. Oh yeah, And the interesting bit here 0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:39.799 is that we have there seemed to be a couple 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:42.600 of different dimensions to this. So on one hand, there 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:46.040 was the idea, Okay, the blade is ritually treated with 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:50.719 this arsenic, but apparently like not a situation where like, okay, 0:42:50.760 --> 0:42:53.440 you're going into battle rubs some arsenic on the blade. No, 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:57.040 the arsenic is used in the creation of the blade, 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:02.840 treatment of the blades tip, it's forging, and this process 0:43:02.840 --> 0:43:05.840 would bring out the contrast apparently between the dark black 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:09.680 iron and the light colored silvery nickel layers. 0:43:10.280 --> 0:43:12.719 So my understanding that right, is saying that you could 0:43:12.760 --> 0:43:17.040 put a poison, a permanent poisonous element into the metal 0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:19.520 when it was forged, and that would still be effective 0:43:19.520 --> 0:43:22.719 as a poison for somebody getting cut by it. I 0:43:22.800 --> 0:43:26.799 don't so it just seems kind of hard to believe chemically, right. 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:29.680 I think it's more of a supernatural idea of the 0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:33.280 poison here, because again we're getting into we're talking about 0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:36.160 an implement that is it's almost like a blessing of 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:39.319 the blade. That's my understanding of it here. I might 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:41.400 have to come back and see if there are sources 0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:45.080 out there that really get into the possibility of any 0:43:45.160 --> 0:43:49.920 kind of like permanently poisoned blade. But that's one of 0:43:49.960 --> 0:43:52.160 the interesting things about poison. We just discussed this on 0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:54.759 the show before in the past, talking about poisons and 0:43:54.840 --> 0:44:02.600 various East Asian belief systems, where yes, there were definitely 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:07.160 real poisons then as there are today, but poison also 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:12.560 takes on the connotation of curse, and not only curse, 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:15.399 but sort of like accusations of poison, and we see 0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:18.400 this in belief systems throughout the world, like the idea 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:23.200 that if something evil has happened, illness or or something else, 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:26.760 it must be a poison that was used by evil doers, 0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:30.120 the poisons of witches. So the poisons and curses of 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:33.440 magic users are kind of interchangeable, and therefore we might 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:36.600 think of this as kind of like a holy poison 0:44:36.640 --> 0:44:39.640 in some respects a wholly magical poison. 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:40.520 Interesting. 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:44.320 Now, again, the Chris, like other long lived ceremonial knives, 0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:48.560 is highly symbolic. Every detail of the blade often grounded 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:51.240 in some sort of function, such as the blood gutters, 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:54.160 which I think we've pointed this out on the show before. 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:58.280 Blood gutters are not actually for allowing blood to blurt 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:00.600 out of a wound there, it's about reducing blade weight, 0:45:01.120 --> 0:45:05.960 you know, things like that, or again this specially treated 0:45:06.000 --> 0:45:09.800 blade tip. They take on various religious and philosophical meanings. 0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:13.880 For example, the shape of the blade apparently has different meanings. 0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:17.719 The wavy blade symbolizes wisdom and is linked to the 0:45:17.880 --> 0:45:21.640 iconography of the serpent Naga in motion. And furthermore, the 0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:25.120 exact number of curves in the blade is tied to 0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:29.680 precise ideas about theology and power. Ones in the relationship 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:32.480 between kings and the gods, that sort of thing. In 0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:35.920 that paper publishing the Journal of English Educational Literature and Culture, 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:38.800 there's like a whole chart of like, okay, two waves 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:41.439 it means this, three waves it means that, and they're 0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:45.760 all They're all very to my eye complex ideas about 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:50.960 again the theology of the theological properties of power. The 0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:53.200 straight Cris blade, on the other hand, is said to 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:58.239 symbolize determination to maintain principles, and it's tied to the 0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:01.600 idea of the Naga at rest. So the Naga is 0:46:01.600 --> 0:46:04.640 not moving, it's not waving, you know, it's not slithering, 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:09.239 but it is straight. The exact period of production is 0:46:09.280 --> 0:46:12.040 also going to dictate exactly how one might read a 0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:14.719 Chris like this, And this is again not even getting 0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:19.920 to all the various outright illustrations and inscriptions are going 0:46:19.960 --> 0:46:22.799 to be on the blade as well. One example of 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:27.920 the differences you encounter. So if it was created within 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:30.799 a Hindu Buddhist culture, you're going to have, you know, 0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:34.279 you probably have a lot more illustrations of gods and 0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:39.160 beings and animals. Meanwhile, Islamic cultures, as you can well imagine, 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:42.360 under Islamic cultures, you're going to have Islamic crises that 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:44.560 typically employ fewer of these elements. 0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:48.040 Let's representation a m. Yeah. 0:46:48.280 --> 0:46:51.120 Now, another tidbit I ran across is this idea, and 0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:53.880 this has been referenced in multiple works that a long 0:46:54.040 --> 0:46:57.600 form of the straight chris was also reportedly used in 0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:02.520 ritual executions or Hu Kuman saloon. And this would have 0:47:02.560 --> 0:47:09.040 been achieved allegedly by having the execution victim assume a 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:13.240 squatting position, and then the executioner stands behind the victim 0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:17.360 and then would drive the crisp down through the clavicle 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:20.520 to the heart. I mean, that's what I said. All 0:47:21.719 --> 0:47:25.360 most of these execution techniques, I don't know. I couldn't find. 0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:29.600 I didn't find any papers that like really dug into 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:32.880 how effective this would be. But I guess on paper, 0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:35.239 if someone's like, hey, this guy knows what he's doing. 0:47:35.280 --> 0:47:36.959 He's going to stick it right through your neck straight 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:39.200 to the heart and then it's done, I guess I'm 0:47:39.239 --> 0:47:41.520 okay with that. Certainly better than some of the horror 0:47:41.520 --> 0:47:47.680 stories we've discussed involving multiple strikes of the headman's axe. Right. Yes, Now, 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:50.879 this does lead me to another issue that comes up. 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:54.600 There are some arguments that that curvy wavy blade, the 0:47:54.640 --> 0:47:58.120 snake like blade, the snake in motion, that this would 0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:01.880 be an ideal blade because it might produce a wider 0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:06.319 wound channel when it's actually used in battle, or that 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:10.040 you would encounter less friction and suction inside the wound, 0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:12.799 so allowing for like a deeper and faster stab, like 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:14.279 you'd be able to stab in and then pull it 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:17.239 back out, save time and then you can move on 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:20.600 to your in the next battlefield stabbing that sort of thing. 0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:23.120 As far as I can tell, a lot of these 0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:26.080 arguments seem to be kind of speculative. I couldn't find 0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:28.440 an example of anyone like actually testing them out on 0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:32.319 some sort of you know, you know, cadaver or animal body. 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:34.320 Though, stick dummy with the Chris. 0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:36.960 Yeah. But if if one does, and certainly if anybody 0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:38.520 knows of one out there, send it my way and 0:48:38.560 --> 0:48:43.000 we'll come back to the topic. So these ideas, though 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:44.960 I'm not going to dismiss them out of hand, could 0:48:44.960 --> 0:48:49.280 be true, but most accounts really seem to focus on again, 0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:52.400 all of these stylistic and symbolic meanings of say the 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:55.799 curvy blade, and I mean you can kind of get 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:58.200 this too by just looking at it. It just it 0:48:58.320 --> 0:49:01.640 just you know, enraptures you to look at a curvy Chris. 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:05.400 So it seems more likely that these that it's a 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:08.600 you know, a major esthetic factor here rather than a 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:13.320 performance design. Yeah, finally, this is this is a somewhat 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:16.479 lesser cultural value. But if you listen to our Weird 0:49:16.480 --> 0:49:19.160 House Cinema episodes, you might remember a few months back 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:22.800 we discussed the nineteen eighty eight Indonesian supernatural action movie 0:49:23.080 --> 0:49:27.760 Lady Terminator. That film does feature a holy demon slaying 0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:31.359 Chris in it, which I think, you know, again that's 0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:36.480 a that's an exploitation action film, but it does give 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:39.040 you an idea of just how important the Chris is 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:42.920 within these different Indonesian traditions, like it is the holy blade, 0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:44.799 it is the of course, it is the blade that 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:48.280 you would use to eliminate some sort of supernatural evil. 0:49:48.520 --> 0:49:51.000 Do I remember right that in that movie there is 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:54.480 a snake or an eel that turns into the Chris. 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:57.440 You were correct, Yeah, and that would also tie into 0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:01.160 these ideas of the cur rev blade or even the 0:50:01.160 --> 0:50:04.600 straight blade again being connected to a snake or a naga. 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:10.640 So and again, and also to water and to water creatures, 0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:14.600 the wavy movement and wave forms in the water. 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.280 Well done, mythologically valid. 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:20.640 Yeah yeah, so again, there is so much out there 0:50:20.680 --> 0:50:23.920 about about the Chris. You know, whole books have been 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:27.320 written about it. And in fact, the one author, the 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:31.560 Dutch author that I alluded to here, David von Duren, 0:50:31.640 --> 0:50:34.960 has written multiple books about the Chris. Some of them 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:36.759 aren't as easy to get a hold of, but they're 0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:38.359 out there. I think you generally have to like order 0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:44.480 them from Amsterdam. But again, deep topic. I didn't want 0:50:44.520 --> 0:50:46.440 to just go on and on about the Chris here, 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:49.759 but hopefully I've given you just a sample of just 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:52.839 how rich and amazing these blades are. 0:50:53.320 --> 0:50:57.000 Very cool. This is not something I think about most blades. 0:50:57.040 --> 0:50:59.880 You know, you ever see the scene in a lot, 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:02.719 don't know the story where the sword expert it like, 0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:04.440 picks it up and wants to feel the edge of 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:06.680 the blade. They like put their thumb on the sharp part, 0:51:06.680 --> 0:51:09.080 And I don't know what. I don't have that impulse 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:10.759 with knives. I mean, I like a good knife in 0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:13.279 the kitchen. I'm a fan of good knives, but I 0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:15.439 don't always want to go touching the blade to feel 0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:17.960 how sharp it is, Chris, for some reason like I 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:20.520 want to get my hands on that. I want to 0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:22.880 put that right on the pad of my thumb and 0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:24.040 see how sharp it feels. 0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:28.760 Yeah. Yeah, it is something about the how organic it looks. 0:51:28.840 --> 0:51:31.840 It looks like a living thing, And I believe that 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:33.879 is part like there is an idea that they are 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:35.920 kind of like living things, you know, the idea that 0:51:36.040 --> 0:51:38.920 is kind of getting back to what we discussed in 0:51:38.960 --> 0:51:43.040 the first episode what Borges said about knives and especially 0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:46.360 weapons of that have shed blood. How they kind of 0:51:46.360 --> 0:51:47.960 take on a life of their own, and they have 0:51:48.040 --> 0:51:53.680 their own their own ambitions and their own grudges, and 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:57.080 we as mortal humans just we occasionally get to hold them, 0:51:57.120 --> 0:52:00.760 We occasionally wield them. We occasionally rub our thumb against 0:52:00.760 --> 0:52:02.359 their edge to see how sharp they are. 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.600 They must seek out a meat host to carry them along. 0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:09.600 Yeah, all right, we're gonna close out this episode. But 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:11.799 Joe and I were just talking about this off mic, 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:15.920 I believe we have one more episode in this series 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.320 for you. We're gonna reach into the into the blade 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:19.920 drawer one more time and. 0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:23.360 Greet into that bag of books. If there's a Chris 0:52:23.360 --> 0:52:24.000 in there. 0:52:24.080 --> 0:52:26.799 See what see what pricks us, and we're gonna pull 0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:30.200 out at least two more. We'll see. We'll see what 0:52:30.239 --> 0:52:32.239 they're like once we actually get our hands on them 0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:36.080 and start to rubbing our thumb against the blade. So 0:52:36.120 --> 0:52:39.239 tune in on Thursday for what should probably be the 0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:42.919 final episode in this three part series. But in the meantime, again, 0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:44.440 we'd love to hear from you out there. Do you 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:49.480 have expertise or information about either of the blades and 0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:52.399 blade types that we discussed here today, If so, write 0:52:52.440 --> 0:52:55.080 in we'd love to hear from you. Or if you 0:52:55.200 --> 0:53:01.480 just have blades that are of personal cultural importance to 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:04.919 you and you would like to share them with us. Yeah, 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:07.680 send us your story, send us some pictures of that night. 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:09.440 We would love to hear from you. 0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:13.840 Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 0:53:14.280 --> 0:53:15.920 If you would like to get in touch with us 0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:18.480 with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:20.560 a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:23.440 you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:31.600 Mind dot com. 0:53:31.760 --> 0:53:34.680 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 0:53:34.760 --> 0:53:37.560 more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:55.120 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.