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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 3: two in our series on sacred daggers. In the last episode,

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Speaker 3: we talked a bit about the role of daggers beyond

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Speaker 3: your average D and D campaign, how they figure into history,

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Speaker 3: how they often have cultural significance beyond their simple use

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Speaker 3: as weapons, and then we looked at a couple of

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Speaker 3: specific artifacts. Rob you talked about the rock crystal dagger

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Speaker 3: of the Ivory Lady. Wonderful sequence of words. There a

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Speaker 3: fascinating blade found in the grave of a woman in

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Speaker 3: modern day Spain who died and was buried during the

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Speaker 3: Iberian Copper Age, which would have been roughly thirty two

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Speaker 3: hundred twenty two hundred BCE. This dagger was interesting for

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Speaker 3: a number of reasons, not least of which because of

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Speaker 3: its beautiful, semi transparent rock crystal blade is a blade

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Speaker 3: you can kind of see through, and for its inclusion

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Speaker 3: as part of an assemblage of grave goods, indicating that

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Speaker 3: the woman buried there was probably a figure of great

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Speaker 3: importance and authority. And then we also talked about the

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Speaker 3: bush Barrow Dagger, a famous Bronze Age masterwork knife found

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Speaker 3: in a barrow grave about a kilometer away from stone Hinge.

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Speaker 3: You can kind of see stone Hinge from this barrow,

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Speaker 3: And that one was notable because it also came with

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Speaker 3: a particularly rich and interesting collection of other grave goods,

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Speaker 3: but also because of the almost unbelievable level of craft

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Speaker 3: that went into its manufacture, particularly the way the handle

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Speaker 3: had been decorated with around one hundred and forty thousand

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Speaker 3: microscopic gold pins, each no wider than a human hair,

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Speaker 3: made at a time before magnifying glasses, leading some researchers

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Speaker 3: to speculate that it really could only have been made

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Speaker 3: by children child goldsmiths, since only children would probably have

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Speaker 3: had eyesight sharp enough to see and place the studs.

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Speaker 3: And now we're back today to talk about more rob

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Speaker 3: Have you had dagger thoughts since our first episode?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I look forward to getting into the dagger

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Speaker 2: that I'm going to pull out of the drawer next.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I was thinking thinking a good bit about

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Speaker 2: it over the weekend. Did a little Dungeons and Dragons

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Speaker 2: playing over the weekend. Definitely thought about it then, and

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Speaker 2: you know, we called out in the last episode two

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Speaker 2: to our listeners and said, hey, do you have knives?

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Speaker 2: Do you want to show us your knives? And people

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Speaker 2: have already started doing so and it hasn't gotten weird yet.

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Speaker 2: So if you want to send us pictures of knives

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Speaker 2: that are of great importance to you or you know,

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Speaker 2: fascination points for you personally, you send us information about it.

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Speaker 2: We'd love to learn more.

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Speaker 3: Who sent us a picture of their knives? I was

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Speaker 3: just looking at our email, didn't see any knives.

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Speaker 2: Oh, somebody slipped a knife in there. I don't have

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Speaker 2: my email open in the moment, so I can't pull

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Speaker 2: it out. But yeah, somebody showed us some knives.

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Speaker 3: Did it go to my spam folder? What happened? I'll

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Speaker 3: have to figure that out.

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Speaker 2: Well, don't just reach blindly into your spam folder because

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Speaker 2: there may be knives in there, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: if there's sheathed or Notugh.

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Speaker 3: This just reminds me of a horrible story of a

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Speaker 3: good friend of mine who used to work as a

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Speaker 3: buyer at a used book in music store, who would, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, take in and price the items people wanted

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Speaker 3: to sell. So he was looking through a bag of

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Speaker 3: like old books that somebody had brought in, and just

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Speaker 3: like among the books in there was a food processor blade.

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Speaker 2: Stuck. Isn't it used as a bookmark?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know why it was in

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Speaker 3: the bag, but yeah, you got to watch out, got

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Speaker 3: agers of the profession.

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Speaker 2: Yeah all right, Well, like we said last time, we

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Speaker 2: put together a whole list of knives, knowing that we

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Speaker 2: would not have time in space to cover all of them.

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Speaker 2: But we each sorted around in there and tried to

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Speaker 2: find a dagger or something like a dagger that we

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Speaker 2: wanted to dig into and discuss. Joe, what did you

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Speaker 2: pick for today?

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Speaker 3: So I would like to talk today about a style

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Speaker 3: of blade known as a tumi, which was made and

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Speaker 3: used by the pre Columbian indigenous peoples of the Central Andes,

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Speaker 3: particularly the coastal regions of modern day Peru. So this

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Speaker 3: would include the Moche people, the Scan also known as

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Speaker 3: the Lambayek, and the Chimu people. So this style of

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Speaker 3: knife is occasionally called a dagger in the literature, especially

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Speaker 3: older literature, though in more recent sources it seems people

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Speaker 3: more often just say knife or tumi. But as a dagger,

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because it challenges the boundaries of

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Speaker 3: the concept, both in shape and in function. So in function,

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Speaker 3: I think it challenges the idea of a dagger because

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Speaker 3: this item was clearly used for much more than just

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Speaker 3: offensive violence. In fact, that seems like if it was

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Speaker 3: used for that, that was one of its much less

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Speaker 3: common uses. Last time, we made the distinction that while

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Speaker 3: a knife usually refers to an all utility blade, a

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Speaker 3: dagger is usually understood to be something meant for violence.

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Speaker 3: The tome was used for all sorts of things, including

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Speaker 3: ritual sacrifices and as we'll get to, medicine. In shape,

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Speaker 3: it also challenges our idea of a dagger because the

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Speaker 3: particular to me tradition I'm talking about that the idea

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Speaker 3: the word to me actually just in a way means knife.

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Speaker 3: I'll get to that in a second. But the form

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Speaker 3: of to me I'm talking about challenges the idea of

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Speaker 3: a dagger because it is not long and pointy. In fact,

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Speaker 3: it's almost the exact opposite. The blade could be called

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Speaker 3: crescent shaped or semi lunar. Generally, it's a bent, semi

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Speaker 3: circular or half moon shape with the bend running perpendicular

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Speaker 3: to the length of the handle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Looking at the vious images of this blade, it

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Speaker 2: reminds me a little. If I were to compare it

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Speaker 2: to a kitchen implement, and I do so with no

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Speaker 2: intended disrespect, I would think of one of these kind

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Speaker 2: of rolling blades that you use to cut I don't know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes like yeah, herbs, So, I guess would be the thing.

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Speaker 2: Not so much pizza, some of the PiZZ Some pizza

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Speaker 2: slicers have a little bit of a curve, but this

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Speaker 2: one is a sharper curve that. Yeah. If we were

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Speaker 2: to compare it to a kitchen implement, it would probably

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Speaker 2: be those yeah we used to slice up some herbs.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Or think the blade and the pit and the pendulum, yeah,

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Speaker 3: with the handle coming down the middle and a curved

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Speaker 3: blade running perpendicular to the handle. Yeah. So, as I

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Speaker 3: just alluded to. The word to me is a word

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Speaker 3: in the Ketchua language that just means knife, and so

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Speaker 3: it can be used to refer to a broad range

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Speaker 3: of sharp instruments or cutting tools made by the pre

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Speaker 3: Incan peoples of the Andes and sometimes by the Incas themselves.

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Speaker 3: So it is a word with a broader meaning, but

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Speaker 3: also it is used to refer to these half moon blades.

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Speaker 3: These half moon blades would have been called something else

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Speaker 3: by the pre Incan peoples who made them, but the

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Speaker 3: ketchwa word used by the Incas has been passed down

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Speaker 3: and used in the archaeological context, so that's what we

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Speaker 3: call them today. So I figure we should just look

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Speaker 3: at a couple of specific examples. Rob I've got some

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Speaker 3: pictures that you can look at in the outline here,

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Speaker 3: so we can discuss them. But folks at home, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to describe them in some detail and then talk

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Speaker 3: about what we know about these artifacts. So the first

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Speaker 3: one I want to look at is an example of

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Speaker 3: a beautiful ceremonial to me made by the Chimu culture

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Speaker 3: of northern coastal Peru sometime between eleven hundred and fourteen SEVENTYCE.

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Speaker 3: This is a highly ornamented dagger made of gold with

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Speaker 3: turquoise inlay. It's about thirty four centimeters long and thirteen

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Speaker 3: centimeters wide, with a half moon curved blade at the

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Speaker 3: bottom attached to a purpen deday killer shaft, and then

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Speaker 3: at the top of that shaft, coming up from the

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Speaker 3: half moon, a gold humanoid figure with a large broad

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Speaker 3: head and face in proportion to the body, topped with

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Speaker 3: a patterned gold head dress with inset turquoise discs and

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Speaker 3: also turquoise discs gauging the lobes of the figure's ears.

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Speaker 3: And then we see the posture of the figures. The

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Speaker 3: arms are folded in on the stomach, not across each other,

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Speaker 3: but just coming in toward the belly, button folded in

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Speaker 3: on the stomach, feet splayed outwards.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite splendid looking. I mean, it is the

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Speaker 2: very definition of a ceremonial implement, right, I mean you

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Speaker 2: can tell that. Not to say it had no utility.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're going to you're about to get into that,

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Speaker 2: but you can tell that, especially as far as the

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Speaker 2: handle is concerned, style was more. The aesthetics of the

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Speaker 2: thing were far more important than like, is this a

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Speaker 2: good grip? Can I hold this firmly in one hand

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Speaker 2: or two hands? And so forth?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this was a symbol of power. So this piece

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Speaker 3: is currently held by the Art Institute of Chicago, and

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Speaker 3: so I'm going to add some details from their exhibit materials.

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Speaker 3: The figure depicted on the Toomey handle that the person

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Speaker 3: here rendered in gold with the turquoise is thought to

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Speaker 3: be we don't know for sure, but is strongly suspected

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Speaker 3: by experts to be a legendary founding father known as

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Speaker 3: name Lap that is spelled in English Naymlap. I hope

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that right, and I apologize if I get

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Speaker 3: any other pronunciations wrong in this section. I'm doing my best.

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Speaker 3: Here a figure known as name Lap who is said

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Speaker 3: to have been the hero who settled or colonized the

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Speaker 3: region of the Lembayak Valley on the coast of Peru

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Speaker 3: and formed a powerful ruling dynasty that lasted many generations.

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Speaker 3: So I was looking up stories about this figure, name Lap,

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Speaker 3: and I found some more details in a UCLA Today

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Speaker 3: article by Cynthia Lee about the work of an archaeologist

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Speaker 3: named Christopher Donna And this article was from twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: I believe Donnan studied the relationship between the oral tradition

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Speaker 3: of name Lap and the archaeological record at a couple

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Speaker 3: of sites in the Lumbayaka Valley. So it is said

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Speaker 3: that Name Lap arrived to the coast of Peru on

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Speaker 3: a fleet of balsa wood rafts with a large entourage

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Speaker 3: that included his wife and many concubines, as well as

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Speaker 3: a host of warriors and lieutenants. And he brought with

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Speaker 3: him a holy idol made of green stone that I

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Speaker 3: think in some tellings is said to be his own

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Speaker 3: image in a way, that was kept in his palace.

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Speaker 3: And he seems to have been honored in ways that

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Speaker 3: are symbolically associated with the sea, receiving fanfare on seashell trumpets,

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Speaker 3: and I thought this was interesting. He was so powerful

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Speaker 3: and revered that his servants would spread a carpet of

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Speaker 3: ground up seashells on the earth wherever he walked.

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Speaker 2: Ooh nice, I mean that would also just be good

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Speaker 2: for grip.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So it said that when he died in his palace,

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Speaker 3: his servants originally kept his death a secret for fear

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Speaker 3: of dismaying the people, and when news of his death

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Speaker 3: finally spread, people went out wandering the mountains to look

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Speaker 3: for him. So, coming back to this specific to me,

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Speaker 3: assuming that that is the figure depicted on it, name

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Speaker 3: lap does seem to have often been depicted in gold

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Speaker 3: with these turquoise inlays in other representations as well, and

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Speaker 3: many of the indigenous peoples of Peru used turquoise to

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Speaker 3: symbolize the spiritual power of water and the sky, kind

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Speaker 3: of in the same way that gold might symbolize the

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Speaker 3: spiritual power of the sun.

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Speaker 2: Ah.

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Speaker 3: The museum material here says that this ceremonial to me

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Speaker 3: would be carried by rulers of the royal dynasty, and

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Speaker 3: the way I understand what I'm reading about it, it

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Speaker 3: sounds like it was a highly value symbolic kingly replica

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Speaker 3: of the regular semi circular copper alloy or bronze knives

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Speaker 3: that would have been used to carry out animal sacrifices.

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Speaker 3: So I was thinking about this like a tool of

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Speaker 3: religious ritual in form. But the question is would this

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Speaker 3: specific one, this one held by a member of the

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Speaker 3: royal dynasty, be used in practice. I couldn't find a

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Speaker 3: definitive answer to that, but my best guess based on

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Speaker 3: what I'm reading is probably not. It might be symbolic,

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Speaker 3: so as a as a gold version of a tool

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Speaker 3: used in ritual, it would kind of symbolize the king's

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Speaker 3: power over the whole religious enterprise of the culture. Rough analogy,

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Speaker 3: but kind of like if a Christian king had a

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Speaker 3: gold communion chalice and people don't actually drink the wine

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Speaker 3: out of this one at the church services, but it

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Speaker 3: might symbolize the King's power and relationship to the central

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Speaker 3: ritual of the church.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Or here's there's another rougher comparison. Again, no disrespect

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Speaker 2: intended to anyone out there, but it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: if if you go into a kitchen from the late seventies,

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Speaker 2: early eighties and there is a decorative jello mold hanging

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Speaker 2: on the wall that is not actually used to make.

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Speaker 3: Jello, Okay, yeah, but it doesn't have to.

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Speaker 2: Be clear, probably doesn't have any kind of religious sentiments

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Speaker 2: tied up in it, but is purely decorative. Meanwhile, in

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Speaker 2: a drawer somewhere, there is some sort of an implement

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Speaker 2: that is used to make jello, an actual cello mold,

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Speaker 2: a functional jello mold.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Another one I would think of along those

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Speaker 3: lines is like a decorative tea set. Nobody ever actually

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Speaker 3: drinks tea out of these, but yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes it's some cases it's not safe to

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Speaker 2: drink tea out of a decorative teapots. Then they might

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Speaker 2: have a little bit too much lead in them, and

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Speaker 2: so forth.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of how this specific Toomey dagger was

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Speaker 3: put together. The museum explains as follows quote. The tomu

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Speaker 3: was made with diverse metal working techniques. Solid casting was

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Speaker 3: used to produce the blade, the face and body, with annealing, heating, shaping,

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Speaker 3: and then cooling and repousee in which the relief design

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Speaker 3: is hammered into a mold from the reverse side. Finally,

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Speaker 3: the small ornaments around the top of the headdress were

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Speaker 3: separately hammered or cast then soldered into place. All right,

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Speaker 3: so that is the very very impressive gold ceremonial to me.

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Speaker 3: But I've got another to me for us to look at,

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Speaker 3: rob a new one. You can see the picture in

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Speaker 3: the outline here. I will describe now. This is a

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Speaker 3: later artifact from the Inca from some time between fourteen

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifteen thirty five, also from Peru, made of bronze.

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Speaker 3: This one is held by the met Museum in New York,

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Speaker 3: and it's far less elaborate than the gold knife from

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Speaker 3: the earlier Chimu culture. A sort of a simple bronze

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Speaker 3: blade curved like a slice from a circle, though it's

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Speaker 3: actually by volume less than half of the circle. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's not a semicircle. It's I don't know, by volume,

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Speaker 3: it looks like maybe a fourth of a circle, but

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Speaker 3: it's the outer edge, so it's still the curve.

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Speaker 2: Now, this one really does remind me of the pizza

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Speaker 2: slice or the bread slicer that we have in our kitchen.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, especially because I'm sure it looks more utilitarian. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it has less of the decoration, though it's not entirely

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Speaker 3: without decoration. So again, it's got a perpendicular handle to

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Speaker 3: the blade, and then at the end of that handle

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Speaker 3: there are four curved talons curling in like the claws

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Speaker 3: of an eagle. So the met exhibit points out the

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Speaker 3: diverse skills on display in the metal working industry that

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Speaker 3: took place at the Incan capital of Cusco, with items

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Speaker 3: being made of gold, silver, copper, and bronze, and with

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Speaker 3: Toomey's being one of the most commonly represented metal tools

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Speaker 3: from that industry. Many of these everyday Toomey's have loops

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Speaker 3: at the top of the handle. I guess kind of

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Speaker 3: like what we see here with the curved bird talons,

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Speaker 3: and this is taken as an indication that they probably

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Speaker 3: hung from something, so people might hang a to me

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Speaker 3: maybe on the necklace or on a belt something like that.

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Speaker 3: The tome is commonly associated with ritual sacrifice, for example

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Speaker 3: the sacrifice of lamas during the harvest festival, and this

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Speaker 3: association with blood sacrifice goes back thousands of years in

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Speaker 3: Indian cultures between the toomey and the animal sacrifice. The

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Speaker 3: museum explains the raptor talent motif on the handle in

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Speaker 3: terms of the association with sacrifice by saying, quote, the

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Speaker 3: eating habits of raptors and vultures give them a natural

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Speaker 3: symbolic connection to sacrifice and the world of the dead.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Another thing worth noting is that the half moon tumis

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Speaker 3: are not only used by humans, at least in storytelling

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Speaker 3: and artistic representation. They are depicted in the art of

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Speaker 3: pre Incan and Deean cultures such as the Moche, the

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Speaker 3: chi Mu, and the sikhan as wielded by gods, demi,

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Speaker 3: gods and supernatural beings, sometimes threatening other beings with the

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Speaker 3: tumei or indicating that the tumei might be used for decapitation,

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Speaker 3: which also had ritual significance to multiple pre Incan cultures

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Speaker 3: of the region as an act that could bring about

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Speaker 3: agricultural and ecological rejuvenation. But earlier I mentioned that, apart

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Speaker 3: from its role in animal sacrifices and religious purposes, the

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Speaker 3: half moon shaped tume was also important in indigenous medicines,

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Speaker 3: specifically indigenous surgical techniques, including trepanation.

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Speaker 2: Oh, a topic we've covered on the show before.

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Speaker 3: Right, so we've talked about treppenne at some length. I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to do a full rehash of the whole

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Speaker 3: story here, but the short version is Trepenation is a

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Speaker 3: medical procedure practice not only in Indian cultures. Definitely in

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Speaker 3: Indian cultures, as we're going to talk about, but it

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Speaker 3: practiced in all kinds of cultures around the world all

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Speaker 3: throughout history. A very common thing. It is where a

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Speaker 3: surgeon cuts or bores or scrapes a hole in the

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Speaker 3: skull of a living person, not with the goal of

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Speaker 3: killing them, but with the goal of treating a medical

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Speaker 3: complaint or supposedly enhancing them in some way. The reasoning

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Speaker 3: behind the procedure varies, but trepienation has been used especially

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Speaker 3: to treat head injuries that might lead to swelling inside

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Speaker 3: the brain inflammation in the head. So like head injuries

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Speaker 3: that involve the fracture of the skull arising from accidents

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Speaker 3: or violence. This is a big thing that would cause

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Speaker 3: somebody to seek trepenation and maybe they get hit in

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Speaker 3: the head. There's a fracture and there's some swelling. Some

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Speaker 3: bits of bone can be removed and a hole can

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Speaker 3: be cut to allegedly relieve the swelling. It's also been

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Speaker 3: speculated that it may have been used to treat headaches,

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Speaker 3: you know, bad headaches, or other things that were thought

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Speaker 3: to be the swelling of the brain. Maybe as a

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Speaker 3: hypothetical treatment for a variety of mental and neurological conditions,

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Speaker 3: such as epilepsy. But one of the really startling things

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Speaker 3: about trepnation is in certain times and places, how often

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Speaker 3: this procedure was survivable. You know, I would just assume

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Speaker 3: that before modern medicine, this is just one hundred percent

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Speaker 3: death rate on drilling a hole in the skull.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because you hear you hear dire stories

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Speaker 2: about about other pre modern surgical procedures, and you would

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Speaker 2: just assume messing around in the skull essentially with the brain,

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Speaker 2: you're going to you're going to run up against the

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Speaker 2: high death rate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And to be clear, the the survival rate of

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Speaker 3: a trepidation procedure is wildly different at different times and

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Speaker 3: places in history, so you can tell from looking at

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Speaker 3: human remains, even before written records, of how successful surgical

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Speaker 3: procedures were. You can just tell from looking at remains

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Speaker 3: of people who have had this procedure done. Sometimes bone

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Speaker 3: has healed over after a trepidation procedure, other times it

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Speaker 3: has not. But in cases where the bone has healed over,

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Speaker 3: it proves that the patient survived the operation for a

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Speaker 3: significant time afterwards, dead people don't heal, So of course

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Speaker 3: there are lots of times where you know it might

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Speaker 3: be a coin flip whether you would survive trepanation. But

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Speaker 3: some estimates based on surveys of tripand remains, indicate that

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Speaker 3: during the late Incan period they had gotten really good

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Speaker 3: at this Somewhere around eighty percent of trepanning patients probably

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Speaker 3: survived the operation.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: As a point of comparison, in some of the articles

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Speaker 3: I was looking at, they compared that to craniotomy similar

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Speaker 3: you know, like a removing part of the skull procedures

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Speaker 3: in field hospitals during the US Civil War, So you know,

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Speaker 3: hundreds of years later where survival rates were roughly half

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Speaker 3: of that. Oh wow, so yeah, like they had really

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Speaker 3: gotten quite good at this procedure in the late Incan period.

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Speaker 3: So what tools were used to conduct a tripanning? It

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Speaker 3: could be any number of things. You would need some

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Speaker 3: kinds of scrapers and blades, These would be any number

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Speaker 3: of obsidian or bronze implements. But the semi circular bronze

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Speaker 3: to me was absolutely a common part of the tripanning toolkit.

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Speaker 3: And this connects to an article I was reading an

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Speaker 3: ARS Technica article from twenty twenty two by Keona N.

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Speaker 3: Smith called ancient Peruvian was buried with tools for cranial

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Speaker 3: surgery and then good subheader quote. He was also buried

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Speaker 3: with the partial skulls of two former patients, taking a

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Speaker 3: little keepsake. Yeah yeah, So the article describes it was

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Speaker 3: at the time a recent discovery from a tomb excavated

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Speaker 3: in a temple complex at Waca Las Ventanas, which is

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Speaker 3: an archaeological site in Peru, and this would have been

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Speaker 3: a site from the Sican culture or the Lumbayak culture.

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Speaker 3: The body in the tomb appears to have been that

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Speaker 3: of a secon brain surgeon, a person specializing in trepanning,

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Speaker 3: and we can tell that in part because of the

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Speaker 3: tools that were buried with him. These include bronze awls

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Speaker 3: with wooden handles, needles, and blades, as well also non

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Speaker 3: occupation grave goods indicating the burial of a relatively rich

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00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 3: and high status person. These non occupational grave goods would

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Speaker 3: be a gold mask with feathers around the eyes, big

394
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Speaker 3: bronze breastplate, and copper bowls lined with gold. But specifically

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Speaker 3: addressing the Toomey, the author of this article rights quote.

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Speaker 3: Most of the knives were single edge blades, but one

397
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: was clearly special. The semi circular blade called a toume,

398
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 3: was a staple in both surgery and ritual sacrifice for

399
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 3: the Sicon. Their predecessors, the Moche and later the Inca,

400
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Speaker 3: ritual tomes were large and elaborate, but ancient surgeons used

401
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: a smaller, more utilitarian version for trepanation. So you might

402
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Speaker 3: have your big, gorgeous gold ceremonial to me that's got

403
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Speaker 3: the picture of a you know, a founding culture hero

404
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,479
Speaker 3: on it, or you might have a smaller bronze when

405
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 3: that you actually used to cut holes in people's skulls.

406
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Speaker 3: The article here quotes Sicon National Museum Director Carlos Alera,

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Speaker 3: who says that the museum is trying to compare the

408
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: instruments found in this grave to those that would be

409
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 3: used by a modern surgeon. One big difference that gets

410
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: called out is material. Of course, you know modern surgeons

411
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 3: are going to be using modern probably steel surgical knives.

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00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 3: Actually I didn't even look this up. What are knives

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Speaker 3: usually made out of for surgery? I assume their steel anyway,

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Speaker 3: whatever that material would be. But these surgical knives are

415
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 3: made of copper with a high arsenic content. The reason

416
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: there was high arsenic content was that it helped strengthen

417
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: the metal, so like a copper arsenic alloy is stronger

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Speaker 3: than a copper one alone.

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00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: This will be interesting because we'll get back into this

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Speaker 2: and the knife we'll talk about in the second half

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00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: of this episode.

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00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 3: To read from the article again, quote two examples of

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Speaker 3: the surgeon's work also joined him In his grave. Archaeologists

424
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: found two frontal bones, the bone that makes up the forehead.

425
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Speaker 3: One belonged to an adult, one belonged to a child,

426
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 3: and neither originally belonged to the surgeon. His was still

427
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: attached to the rest of his skull. Both had been

428
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 3: carefully cut using a classic trepanation technique. So those are

429
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: the two keepsakes, you know, pieces of other people's skulls

430
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: taken with him. I wonder what that means. Is that

431
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 3: just like a you know, oh this is a time

432
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Speaker 3: I did a really good job, or well.

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Speaker 2: One wonders if they might have been teaching implements. You know,

434
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: if you're bringing your tools, maybe you're bringing your knowledge

435
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: with you. I think of how in various medical professions,

436
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, you will practice using you know, some real teeth,

437
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: real bones, some sort or you know, or real other

438
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: actual pieces of a body in order to practice your craft,

439
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: and if it's not something that decays, you may keep

440
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: that potentially as a as a as a teaching implement

441
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe with something like that.

442
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that. I mean, I don't know

443
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 3: if it really work this way, but I wonder that

444
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: sort of thing would be useful, almost like tracing paper,

445
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: you know, Oh yeah, this is the kind of I mean,

446
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: I guess every every injury would be different, though I

447
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: know part of the skill of the surgeon involved here

448
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: would be knowing where and how to cut, knowing like

449
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 3: what the size of the cut in the skull should

450
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 3: be where to cut to avoid excess bleeding. You know,

451
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 3: these are all important things to know to help the

452
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 3: patient survive the procedure. And it must have been like

453
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: part of the answer of like how did these did

454
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 3: the late INCA period end up with these relatively high

455
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 3: survival rates for trepidation because again, think about these other

456
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 3: times when all throughout history where like maybe half the

457
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: people who did this died. The skill of the surgeon

458
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 3: was probably a very big deal. But another factor cited

459
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 3: in this article I was talking about is hygiene. They

460
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 3: must have somehow been practicing a relatively strong hygiene regimen

461
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 3: to do successful surgery without deadly infections on the regular.

462
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was wondering the same thing like that they would, Yeah,

463
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: they would have to at least lock into it, if

464
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: not make significant discoveries about what they should or be

465
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: doing before conducting you know, cranial operations.

466
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: Another interesting question is anesthesia. What did what, if anything

467
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 3: did they use for anesthesia? We don't really know the

468
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: answer is kind of an interesting mystery, though this article

469
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: points to a discovery within the surgeons to him at

470
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 3: Wacallas Fintanas that might contribute knowledge to that, and it

471
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: was that the kit that was buried with the surgeon

472
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: also included a piece of tree bark, which the curator

473
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: at that museum, Alera, had said, you know, we wonder

474
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 3: if this might be a medicinal bark of some kind,

475
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: because of course medicinal barks do exist. We don't know that,

476
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: to be clear, but we don't We know that there

477
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: are some medicinal barks like willow bark, of course is

478
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: anti inflammatory, and so I guess there are questions about

479
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: whether this bark might have been something like that.

480
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're talking about a part of the

481
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: world that has rich biodiversity. Yeah, with any number of known,

482
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: unknown or erased, you know, examples of botanical substances that

483
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: can be used medicinally. You know what, what sort of

484
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: material to they know about that have been completely forgotten

485
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: and need to be rediscovered and so forth.

486
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: Totally, So that's the to me, unlike the dagger you

487
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 3: have in mind in many ways in shape and in function,

488
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: but I think still a pretty fascinating artifact.

489
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great one and definitely gets into I

490
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: think we kind of tease the idea of sacrificial blades

491
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 2: a little bit, and this one I think checks off

492
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: that box at least in part. All Right, the blade

493
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: that I'm going to talk about next, it is a

494
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: specific blade, and out of talking about the specific blade,

495
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: going to sort of pull out and talk more about

496
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: this style of blade in its entirety. This is one

497
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: of the blades that inspired this series that I was like, Oh,

498
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: I should really cover this, But when I started looking

499
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: at it, I realized it was just such a huge

500
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: topic because the specific blade I'm going to reference here

501
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: is a chris that is a type of traditional, highly

502
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: stylized Indonesian blade. Generally it's associated with Java, but also

503
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: other parts of Indonesia. And when I first started looking

504
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: into it, I was like, oh, this could maybe make

505
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: for a nice artifact episode, and then I was like,

506
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: oh no, there's too much here. This would have to

507
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: be at least a full episode. And then I quickly

508
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: realized like it would have to be like multiple episodes

509
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: because one is tempted to compare it to say the

510
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: Samurai sword in terms of the artistry, the technique, the history,

511
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: but in other ways it seems even more complicated than that,

512
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: because you have a lot of diverse imagery, and it's

513
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: going to depend on exactly where it was produced, when

514
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: it was produced, the details of what everything symbolizes. But

515
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: it is such a fascinating blade because you've probably seen

516
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: examples of it out there, listener, at the very least

517
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: you would recognize it. The version that is often depicted

518
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: and certainly catches the eye is a very wavy blade,

519
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: like a highly stylized almost snake shaped dagger, often with

520
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: a highly stylized hilt and a highly stylized sheath, and

521
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: just looking at it like you you know, the mind

522
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: run wild, runs wild, you know, whether you know anything

523
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: about the traditions involved here or you know, or you're

524
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: you're just coming in completely cold. You know, it's like

525
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: why is it shaped like that? And you know, why

526
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: is the handle like that? And then what are all

527
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: these little images that are a part of the blade,

528
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: So that in many ways it feels like the ultimate

529
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: transformation of a utilitarian implement of some sort of a

530
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: tool or weapon into a thing that is just pure

531
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: symbol and meaning. Though you to be clear, you still

532
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: could absolutely top somebody with one of these. So I'm

533
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: going to be talking about Chris's, but I want to

534
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: and that is generally spelled kr I S and in English.

535
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,959
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk specifically though, about the Chris of Nod,

536
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: also known as the Keras of Nod because sometimes Keras

537
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: instead of Chris is used, also known as just Nod's Chris.

538
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 3: Take me off to the land of Nod.

539
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: Okay, let's start with the name. Who is this nod

540
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: fellow spelled k n a U D and I'm I'm

541
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: assuming I'm pronouncing that correctly. I looked around for some

542
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: pronunciation guides on this. This is a Dutch name, and

543
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: most of what I got back were either specific mentions

544
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: of this blade or insistences that I was misspelling the name,

545
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: which I'm not. In this case, Well, this was the

546
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: name of a nineteenth century Dutch physician, and his name

547
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: is only attached to the dagger in question because it

548
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: was gifted to him by paku Alum, the fifth Duke

549
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: of the Javanese Duchy of paku Aliman. The duchy still

550
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: co rules in the special region of Jagi Karta in Indonesia,

551
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: and the current Duke is Pacu Alum the tenth. The

552
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: Dutch were, of course highly invested in the region, to

553
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: say the least, first via the colonial influences of the

554
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: Dutch East India Company. The British then occupied Java from

555
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: eighteen eleven through eighteen sixteen, and the Duchy of Pacu

556
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: Aliman was established during this period, and when the Dutch

557
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: regained control of Java in eighteen sixteen, the Duchy became

558
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: an independent state of the Kingdom of the Netherlands under

559
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: the Dutch East Indies administration until Indonesia's independence in nineteen

560
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: forty five. Okay, So obviously there is a lot of

561
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: history that I just skimmed pasted really quickly. There's obviously

562
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: a lot of back and forth in a lot of

563
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: nuance there. But hopefully this gives you just an idea

564
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: of why a re old Javanese ruler would have gifted

565
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: an elaborate dagger to a dutch Man.

566
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: Okay.

567
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: Doctor Charles Nod here reportedly treated the Duke's son and

568
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: helped him overcome an illness that had some associations with

569
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: black magic, and in thanks for treating the sun and

570
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: because nod was apparently a student of Javanese mysticism, Pacu

571
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: alumn the fifth gifted him this particular Chris I included

572
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: images here of both Pacu Alum the fifth and Charles Nod.

573
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: I think you'll agree. Charles Nod in this image anyway,

574
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: absolutely looks like a haunted portrait in a haunted mansion.

575
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: I assume he's the guy on the left, yes, the

576
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: tilting his head slightly forward and looking up with his

577
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 3: eyes like he's doing an Aphex Twin album cover.

578
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, maybe it's just a product of the scan.

579
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: I think this was I cut this out of a

580
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: book I was I was referencing. But yeah, he looks

581
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: a little creepy here.

582
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: Flake one of those pictures penny Wise in the book

583
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 3: that comes alive exactly.

584
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: So what does this blade look like? While there are

585
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: a lot of images online, you can look up Chris

586
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: of Nod and you can see various images for yourself.

587
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: The remains of the iron blade and the blade alone,

588
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: it lacks a hill to or a sheath, are still

589
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: covered by a thin decorative layer of copper, and it

590
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: is decorated with illustrations from the Hindu epic the Ramayana,

591
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: so one sees figures and vegetation. You can see chariots

592
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: in battle, characters from the Hindu epic and so forth.

593
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: According to author and expert David van Duran in his

594
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: book Charles Nod's Karis. Some of the identifiable elements include

595
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: the monkey warrior Hahneman, the demon king, Ravna dwarfs or

596
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: paquin Kawan. These are the like the clown dwarf servants

597
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: of the hero in Javanese puppet theater, but they're also snakes,

598
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: possibly nagas dogs. There's a demon army, there's a monkey army,

599
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: and more. I know that sounds like a lot to

600
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 2: fit on a single blade that again does not have

601
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: an intact hilt anymore, a Hilton handle or anything. It's

602
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: just the blade. But yes, they really do pack that

603
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: much detail into this, into this, this highly stylized blade.

604
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 3: It's busy, it's very busy, very Yes, it's like a

605
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 3: spiritual Wearswaldo.

606
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. And we don't even necessarily have all of it.

607
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: There are pieces of it that have fallen away. It

608
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: is not in pristine condition by you know, any stretch.

609
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: But what we do have is absolutely remarkable, gorgeous.

610
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

611
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: So we'll get more into just what a Chris is

612
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 2: here in a bit. And again this is a topic

613
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: where I'm only going to be able to really dip

614
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: our toes into it. But again, the short version is

615
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: that it's a highly decorative, highly stylized, highly symbolic dagger.

616
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: The most famous of these have wavy blades, but they're

617
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: not all wavy, some are st and the Cris of

618
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: Nod is, to be clear, a rather straight blade as well.

619
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: It does not have any of the signature waves that

620
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: are often associated with the Chris. The Cris blade has

621
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 2: been produced throughout the islands of Indonesia, but they're especially

622
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: prominent in Java, also prominent to a degree in Bali

623
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 2: as well. So the history of this particular Chris roughly

624
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: breaks down as fall. These are some of the main

625
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: the main points in its known history, so according to

626
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: an inscription on the blade itself, it was forged in

627
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: at least thirteen forty two CE. This would make it

628
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: a product of the Majapahi Empire, a Hindu Buddhist empire

629
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: that ruled Java in some surrounding territory, ultimately lasting from

630
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: twelve ninety two through fifteen twenty seven, when it was

631
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: conquered by the Demak Sultanate. This was just a little

632
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: more than a decade fallollowing first contact in this region

633
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: with Europeans. I believe it would have been the Portuguese.

634
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: Then at a much later date it is gifted to

635
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: Charles Nod and this would have been the late eighteen hundreds,

636
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: and then it was presumed lost around nineteen oh three,

637
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: but it apparently remained in the family's possession in Indonesia,

638
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: was hidden during the Japanese occupation that's forty two through

639
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: forty five, and then the family took the blade to

640
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 2: the Netherlands during the Indonesian National Revolution that immediately followed,

641
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: and it remains to this day time to understand in

642
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: Amsterdam's kit Royal Tropical Institute. So this blade is apparently

643
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: the oldest surviving Chris that has a verifiable age. So

644
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: again that's not to say this is definitely the oldest,

645
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 2: like may there are other blades that may be older,

646
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: but this is the one that currently has a verifiable

647
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: age according to most experts.

648
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 3: Very helpful that its origins are actually inscribed on it.

649
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 2: Right or it's thought that this is the origin dat.

650
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: I've also read that it's possible that it's older, but

651
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: given that the dates on there, or at least in

652
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: some form is on there, it would mean okay, it

653
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: has to be at least this old. Maybe it's older,

654
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: but this it has to be this old, okay. And

655
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: now I have to admit I was a bit dubious

656
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: of this claim at first, again knowing nothing about this previously,

657
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: you know, could the oldest surviving example of this tradition

658
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: really have been given away to a foreigner as a

659
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: gift and eventually sent away to a European museum. As

660
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: it turns out, though, there seems to be a case

661
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: for this, a strong case for this, for a few

662
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: different reasons, and with a few different caveats For starters,

663
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: there's the base fact that we're dealing with iron based artifacts,

664
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: and some of these I should also mention to call

665
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: back to an episode we did previously. Sometimes they use

666
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: meteoric iron in these artifacts as well, But at any rate,

667
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: we were talking iron based artifacts in a humid tropical climate.

668
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: So if a blade is not properly protected, it's just

669
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 2: going to naturally deteriorate. Also, as we see in other

670
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: blade cultures, such as that of the Samurai sword, the

671
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: blade itself was considered the most important and the most

672
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: sacred part, and additional parts such as hill sheath so forth,

673
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 2: these were interchangeable and so they might change multiple times

674
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: during the lifetime of a particular blade, and this can

675
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: apparently complicate accurate datings of a blade as well. And then,

676
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: as our brief history overview might have suggested to listeners

677
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: were also dealing with the region, they saw a great

678
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: deal of upheaval during the colonial period. You had the

679
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 2: Dutch East India Company, the British and the French were

680
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,959
Speaker 2: also involved at different points, and the ensuing conflicts also

681
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: pitted various factions against each other. Artifacts were destroyed, lost,

682
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: absconded with, sometimes into private collections. Also, you had blades

683
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: that were just outright and neglected. And all of this,

684
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: as we've seen with various cultures impacted by colonialism, led

685
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: to a great deal of cultural loss, including material loss.

686
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: So the fact that the Chris of Nod could survive

687
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: six centuries despite all of this is generally quite remarkable, again,

688
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: especially given all the pivotal moments in its timeline where

689
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: it could have just been lost, it could have just

690
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: remained buried, it could have been more neglected than it was.

691
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: So apparently we're rather lucky to have this one at all. Now,

692
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 2: at this point, I want to back up a little

693
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: bit sort of widen and talk a little more generally

694
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: about the chris as a type of blade. One of

695
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: the main sources I turned to for this, in addition

696
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: to the aforementioned book, is Introduction to Chris, a Traditional

697
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: Weapon of Indonesia Preserved Lingering Issues of Facts by Purwatou

698
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 2: and Nurhamada, published in twenty twenty one in the Indonesian

699
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: Journal of English Educational Literature and Culture. So the name

700
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 2: Chris or sometimes keras this is apparently this apparently stems

701
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: from an older Javanese word that meant to slice, and

702
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: the blade is again often identified by its highly asymmetrical design.

703
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: Generally it's stylized hilt and sheath and in some cases

704
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: that wavy snake like blade. Again, not every Chris is wavy,

705
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: but many are. And it's one of those things like

706
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: if you pull up like a Wikipedia article about it,

707
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: you're gonna you're definitely gonna see images, or you just

708
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: do an image search for Chris, you're going to see

709
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: that wavy blade almost saw Like I guess.

710
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: If you if you're looking at an image, I would

711
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 3: say it almost suggests you're looking at it through water.

712
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: The rippling back and forth of the blade the way

713
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: the way it often looks. But yeah, like you said,

714
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 3: this one does not have that appearance.

715
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: The water ripple comparison, I think is really apt considering

716
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: the amount of skill that went into creating these, and

717
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: so there is that kind of precision that you get,

718
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: that wave like precision. Even more so, like I think

719
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: the snake comparison is all so really important. But yeah,

720
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: way like water ripples, that's nice. And also the snake,

721
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: the naga is also associated with water, so that's that's

722
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: a solid comparison as well. So it's said that the

723
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: blade was originally a close combat weapon that was treated

724
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 2: with poison. The poison here was known as warrengon, also

725
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 2: known as arsenic. Oh yeah, And the interesting bit here

726
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: is that we have there seemed to be a couple

727
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: of different dimensions to this. So on one hand, there

728
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: was the idea, Okay, the blade is ritually treated with

729
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: this arsenic, but apparently like not a situation where like, okay,

730
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: you're going into battle rubs some arsenic on the blade. No,

731
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: the arsenic is used in the creation of the blade,

732
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 2: treatment of the blades tip, it's forging, and this process

733
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: would bring out the contrast apparently between the dark black

734
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: iron and the light colored silvery nickel layers.

735
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: So my understanding that right, is saying that you could

736
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: put a poison, a permanent poisonous element into the metal

737
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 3: when it was forged, and that would still be effective

738
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: as a poison for somebody getting cut by it. I

739
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 3: don't so it just seems kind of hard to believe chemically, right.

740
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: I think it's more of a supernatural idea of the

741
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 2: poison here, because again we're getting into we're talking about

742
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: an implement that is it's almost like a blessing of

743
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: the blade. That's my understanding of it here. I might

744
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: have to come back and see if there are sources

745
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: out there that really get into the possibility of any

746
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: kind of like permanently poisoned blade. But that's one of

747
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: the interesting things about poison. We just discussed this on

748
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: the show before in the past, talking about poisons and

749
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: various East Asian belief systems, where yes, there were definitely

750
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: real poisons then as there are today, but poison also

751
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: takes on the connotation of curse, and not only curse,

752
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: but sort of like accusations of poison, and we see

753
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: this in belief systems throughout the world, like the idea

754
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: that if something evil has happened, illness or or something else,

755
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 2: it must be a poison that was used by evil doers,

756
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: the poisons of witches. So the poisons and curses of

757
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: magic users are kind of interchangeable, and therefore we might

758
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: think of this as kind of like a holy poison

759
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: in some respects a wholly magical poison.

760
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 3: Interesting.

761
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 2: Now, again, the Chris, like other long lived ceremonial knives,

762
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: is highly symbolic. Every detail of the blade often grounded

763
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 2: in some sort of function, such as the blood gutters,

764
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: which I think we've pointed this out on the show before.

765
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 2: Blood gutters are not actually for allowing blood to blurt

766
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: out of a wound there, it's about reducing blade weight,

767
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: you know, things like that, or again this specially treated

768
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 2: blade tip. They take on various religious and philosophical meanings.

769
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: For example, the shape of the blade apparently has different meanings.

770
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: The wavy blade symbolizes wisdom and is linked to the

771
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: iconography of the serpent Naga in motion. And furthermore, the

772
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: exact number of curves in the blade is tied to

773
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: precise ideas about theology and power. Ones in the relationship

774
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: between kings and the gods, that sort of thing. In

775
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: that paper publishing the Journal of English Educational Literature and Culture,

776
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 2: there's like a whole chart of like, okay, two waves

777
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 2: it means this, three waves it means that, and they're

778
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 2: all They're all very to my eye complex ideas about

779
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: again the theology of the theological properties of power. The

780
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: straight Cris blade, on the other hand, is said to

781
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 2: symbolize determination to maintain principles, and it's tied to the

782
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: idea of the Naga at rest. So the Naga is

783
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: not moving, it's not waving, you know, it's not slithering,

784
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: but it is straight. The exact period of production is

785
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: also going to dictate exactly how one might read a

786
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: Chris like this, And this is again not even getting

787
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: to all the various outright illustrations and inscriptions are going

788
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: to be on the blade as well. One example of

789
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: the differences you encounter. So if it was created within

790
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: a Hindu Buddhist culture, you're going to have, you know,

791
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 2: you probably have a lot more illustrations of gods and

792
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: beings and animals. Meanwhile, Islamic cultures, as you can well imagine,

793
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: under Islamic cultures, you're going to have Islamic crises that

794
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: typically employ fewer of these elements.

795
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: Let's representation a m. Yeah.

796
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: Now, another tidbit I ran across is this idea, and

797
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: this has been referenced in multiple works that a long

798
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: form of the straight chris was also reportedly used in

799
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: ritual executions or Hu Kuman saloon. And this would have

800
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: been achieved allegedly by having the execution victim assume a

801
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 2: squatting position, and then the executioner stands behind the victim

802
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: and then would drive the crisp down through the clavicle

803
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: to the heart. I mean, that's what I said. All

804
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: most of these execution techniques, I don't know. I couldn't find.

805
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: I didn't find any papers that like really dug into

806
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: how effective this would be. But I guess on paper,

807
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 2: if someone's like, hey, this guy knows what he's doing.

808
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 2: He's going to stick it right through your neck straight

809
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: to the heart and then it's done, I guess I'm

810
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: okay with that. Certainly better than some of the horror

811
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: stories we've discussed involving multiple strikes of the headman's axe. Right. Yes, Now,

812
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: this does lead me to another issue that comes up.

813
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: There are some arguments that that curvy wavy blade, the

814
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: snake like blade, the snake in motion, that this would

815
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: be an ideal blade because it might produce a wider

816
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: wound channel when it's actually used in battle, or that

817
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: you would encounter less friction and suction inside the wound,

818
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: so allowing for like a deeper and faster stab, like

819
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: you'd be able to stab in and then pull it

820
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: back out, save time and then you can move on

821
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: to your in the next battlefield stabbing that sort of thing.

822
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, a lot of these

823
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 2: arguments seem to be kind of speculative. I couldn't find

824
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: an example of anyone like actually testing them out on

825
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: some sort of you know, you know, cadaver or animal body.

826
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 3: Though, stick dummy with the Chris.

827
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. But if if one does, and certainly if anybody

828
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: knows of one out there, send it my way and

829
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: we'll come back to the topic. So these ideas, though

830
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: I'm not going to dismiss them out of hand, could

831
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 2: be true, but most accounts really seem to focus on again,

832
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 2: all of these stylistic and symbolic meanings of say the

833
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 2: curvy blade, and I mean you can kind of get

834
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: this too by just looking at it. It just it

835
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: just you know, enraptures you to look at a curvy Chris.

836
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 2: So it seems more likely that these that it's a

837
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, a major esthetic factor here rather than a

838
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 2: performance design. Yeah, finally, this is this is a somewhat

839
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,479
Speaker 2: lesser cultural value. But if you listen to our Weird

840
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: House Cinema episodes, you might remember a few months back

841
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 2: we discussed the nineteen eighty eight Indonesian supernatural action movie

842
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 2: Lady Terminator. That film does feature a holy demon slaying

843
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 2: Chris in it, which I think, you know, again that's

844
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: a that's an exploitation action film, but it does give

845
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: you an idea of just how important the Chris is

846
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: within these different Indonesian traditions, like it is the holy blade,

847
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 2: it is the of course, it is the blade that

848
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 2: you would use to eliminate some sort of supernatural evil.

849
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: Do I remember right that in that movie there is

850
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 3: a snake or an eel that turns into the Chris.

851
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 2: You were correct, Yeah, and that would also tie into

852
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: these ideas of the cur rev blade or even the

853
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: straight blade again being connected to a snake or a naga.

854
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: So and again, and also to water and to water creatures,

855
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: the wavy movement and wave forms in the water.

856
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 3: Well done, mythologically valid.

857
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so again, there is so much out there

858
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: about about the Chris. You know, whole books have been

859
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 2: written about it. And in fact, the one author, the

860
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 2: Dutch author that I alluded to here, David von Duren,

861
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: has written multiple books about the Chris. Some of them

862
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 2: aren't as easy to get a hold of, but they're

863
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 2: out there. I think you generally have to like order

864
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: them from Amsterdam. But again, deep topic. I didn't want

865
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: to just go on and on about the Chris here,

866
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: but hopefully I've given you just a sample of just

867
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 2: how rich and amazing these blades are.

868
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 3: Very cool. This is not something I think about most blades.

869
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 3: You know, you ever see the scene in a lot,

870
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 3: don't know the story where the sword expert it like,

871
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 3: picks it up and wants to feel the edge of

872
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 3: the blade. They like put their thumb on the sharp part,

873
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 3: And I don't know what. I don't have that impulse

874
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 3: with knives. I mean, I like a good knife in

875
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 3: the kitchen. I'm a fan of good knives, but I

876
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 3: don't always want to go touching the blade to feel

877
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 3: how sharp it is, Chris, for some reason like I

878
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: want to get my hands on that. I want to

879
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 3: put that right on the pad of my thumb and

880
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 3: see how sharp it feels.

881
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it is something about the how organic it looks.

882
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 2: It looks like a living thing, And I believe that

883
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:33,879
Speaker 2: is part like there is an idea that they are

884
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: kind of like living things, you know, the idea that

885
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: is kind of getting back to what we discussed in

886
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: the first episode what Borges said about knives and especially

887
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 2: weapons of that have shed blood. How they kind of

888
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: take on a life of their own, and they have

889
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: their own their own ambitions and their own grudges, and

890
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: we as mortal humans just we occasionally get to hold them,

891
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: We occasionally wield them. We occasionally rub our thumb against

892
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 2: their edge to see how sharp they are.

893
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 3: They must seek out a meat host to carry them along.

894
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, we're gonna close out this episode. But

895
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: Joe and I were just talking about this off mic,

896
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 2: I believe we have one more episode in this series

897
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: for you. We're gonna reach into the into the blade

898
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 2: drawer one more time and.

899
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 3: Greet into that bag of books. If there's a Chris

900
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 3: in there.

901
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 2: See what see what pricks us, and we're gonna pull

902
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: out at least two more. We'll see. We'll see what

903
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: they're like once we actually get our hands on them

904
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: and start to rubbing our thumb against the blade. So

905
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 2: tune in on Thursday for what should probably be the

906
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,919
Speaker 2: final episode in this three part series. But in the meantime, again,

907
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from you out there. Do you

908
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 2: have expertise or information about either of the blades and

909
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 2: blade types that we discussed here today, If so, write

910
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: in we'd love to hear from you. Or if you

911
00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: just have blades that are of personal cultural importance to

912
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 2: you and you would like to share them with us. Yeah,

913
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: send us your story, send us some pictures of that night.

914
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you.

915
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

916
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

917
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

918
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

919
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your

920
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

921
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

922
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

923
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.