Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're reminding
Speaker 1: you to vote on Fat Bear week. Yeah, we're smashing
Speaker 1: that vote button for Graser, a big old mama bear
Speaker 1: who's trying to beat out all the Chalky Boys to
Speaker 1: defend her title from last year. On today's show, we're
Speaker 1: going to react to two big WNBA semifinal games and
Speaker 1: a weekend of finishes and fines in the NWSL, Celebrate
Speaker 1: Coco's childlike joy, and continue to get your reactions to
Speaker 1: last week's big interview with Christine Brennan. It's all coming
Speaker 1: up right after this Welcome back slices. Happy Monday. Here's
Speaker 1: what you need to know today in WNBA playoff news,
Speaker 1: The New York Liberty beat the Las Vegas Aces seventy
Speaker 1: six sixty two in Game four to take their semi
Speaker 1: final series three to one and eliminate the two time
Speaker 1: defending champs. Big game from Brianna Stewart. She had nineteen points,
Speaker 1: fourteen rebounds, and five assists in the win. Sabrina and
Speaker 1: Escu hot from outside, she hit five of eight from
Speaker 1: beyond the arc for twenty two points and added seven rebounds.
Speaker 2: The difference in this one was a.
Speaker 1: Third period during which Vegas just could not capitalize when
Speaker 1: foul trouble sent Johnqwell Jones and Leoni Phoebich to the bench.
Speaker 1: Liberty kept it tight throughout with the subs in, and
Speaker 1: then they used a twenty three to eleven fourth quarter
Speaker 1: to pull away and win this one. Asia Wilson nineteen points,
Speaker 1: ten rebounds, five blocks, Kelsey Plump seventeen points. Tiffany Hayes
Speaker 1: added eleven, but Vegas took the loss. Their record twelve
Speaker 1: game home playoff winning streak ended, and so did their
Speaker 1: hopes for a threepeat. You know, props to the Liberty.
Speaker 1: Gonna be fun to keep watching them. I wanted more
Speaker 1: games in this series, and I wanted more Asia Wilson.
Speaker 1: And since she's done, we should take a moment to
Speaker 1: talk about the season we.
Speaker 2: Got from the MVP.
Speaker 1: Not just the MVP, Asia Wilson, but All WNBA First Team,
Speaker 1: WNBA All Defensive First Team, WNBA All Star, WNBA single
Speaker 1: season rebound record, first one thousand point season in WNBA history,
Speaker 1: and a gold freaking medal.
Speaker 2: So have a year, Asia, and.
Speaker 1: Maybe now have a vacation because you got to be
Speaker 1: tired from Karen that aces team this season.
Speaker 2: A trip to Miami.
Speaker 1: Perhaps anyway, Aces are going to get some rn R
Speaker 1: while the top seeded Liberty move on. They'll have home
Speaker 1: court advantage in the finals where they will face. We
Speaker 1: still don't know, because the Connecticut Sun beat the Minnesota
Speaker 1: Lynx in a thrilling Game four.
Speaker 2: And that series is going to a game five. On Tuesday.
Speaker 1: Back in Minneapolis, it looked like it was going to
Speaker 1: be lights out for the Sun. They were trailing by
Speaker 1: seven at the half, but they came out fighting after
Speaker 1: the break. They took the lead midway through the third,
Speaker 1: ballooned it up to double digits in the fourth, and
Speaker 1: a late run from Mini that threatened was not enough.
Speaker 1: The Sun hold off elimination, forcing that Game five, and
Speaker 1: Ty Harris was part of the difference. First game back
Speaker 1: for Harris since injuring her ankle in Game one of
Speaker 1: the first round. She's one of those three point threats
Speaker 1: like Marina Maybrey that can go off, and she did
Speaker 1: not disappoint. Twenty points for a new career playoff high
Speaker 1: for Ty Harris. Tjna Carrington the primary defender on Courtney
Speaker 1: Williams for the first time in the series. That made
Speaker 1: a difference and Alyssa Thomas doing Alyssa Thomas things and
Speaker 1: more than Alyssa Thomas thinks because she pulled some fadeaways
Speaker 1: out of her bag, saft touch off the glass, laid
Speaker 1: on some bank shots. I mean she put in work
Speaker 1: and she was doing it against the defensive player of
Speaker 1: the year in the FISA Collier Eighteen points, eight boards,
Speaker 1: eleven assists for Thomas. Her fiancee Dwana Batter went off
Speaker 1: in the second half. She was looking at elimination in
Speaker 1: the face and was like, absolutely not, that is not
Speaker 1: going to happen. Eighteen points and eight rebounds for dB.
Speaker 1: Right after the game, dj A Carrington Hotgun Sports Center
Speaker 1: and she was asked about the boost that her team
Speaker 1: found at halftime to finish that game strong and stay
Speaker 1: in it, and she said, quote, at this point in
Speaker 1: the season, if someone has to tell you to get
Speaker 1: up for an elimination game, then you probably shouldn't be
Speaker 1: in this locker room. End quote heard DJA More. Hoops
Speaker 1: News sad to report that Nika Mule, the former Yukon
Speaker 1: point guard who just finished up her first season with
Speaker 1: the Seattle Storm, tore her left ACL in her first
Speaker 1: game back with Istanbul Bass Club Bashiktash. The injury happened
Speaker 1: when Mule grabbed a loose ball during the third quarter
Speaker 1: of her EuroLeague Super Cup game. Bummed to see but
Speaker 1: the fourteenth overall pick in the W draft is taken.
Speaker 1: The moment in stride, she posted the Instagram quote, anyone
Speaker 1: that knows me knows I work my ass off all
Speaker 1: the time. This time isn't going to be any different.
Speaker 1: I appreciate all the love and support so much. Y'all
Speaker 1: really make this easier for my heart. I'm grateful for
Speaker 1: all the people around me that are true testaments of
Speaker 1: what belief and perseverance can achieve. After being denied hooping,
Speaker 1: this is just another opportunity for me to compete, this
Speaker 1: time against myself.
Speaker 2: Not to be cocky, but that's an easy w End.
Speaker 1: Quote, especially a bummer because Nika sat on the bench
Speaker 1: a lot in the W learning in her first season
Speaker 1: and was probably going to use this time in the
Speaker 1: EuroLeague to get some reps in and to get even better.
Speaker 1: Bummed for Unika, wishing you a speedy yet thorough recovery.
Speaker 2: Some more W news.
Speaker 1: Former Dallas wing coo Amber Coox now the Indiana Fever
Speaker 1: COO and GM. She's going to officially join Indiana on
Speaker 1: October twenty eighth. She's also had stints with the Phoenix
Speaker 1: Mercury and the Connecticut Sun, and she's worked with the
Speaker 1: Kansas City Current and the Houston Dash of the NWSL.
Speaker 1: Lynn Dunn, the current GM and former head coach of
Speaker 1: the Fever, now comes senior advisor to Fever Basketball, the
Speaker 1: first in the organization's history. Moving out to tennis, Coco
Speaker 1: Goff defeated Carolina Mohovah in straight sets to win the
Speaker 1: China Open, her second WTA one thousand title and eighth
Speaker 1: career title. GoF becomes the first American woman to win
Speaker 1: Beijing since Serena Williams in twenty thirteen. In the post
Speaker 1: final pressor, GoF reminded us why she's so fun to
Speaker 1: root for. She congratulated Mouhova on her tournament in the
Speaker 1: most Cocoa way ever, saying, quote, congratulations to you, Carolina.
Speaker 1: It's great to see you back on tour. You're such
Speaker 1: an amazing player. You deserve everything. Hopefully we play many
Speaker 1: more finals. I don't want to say I hope some
Speaker 1: go your way, but maybe against someone else they'll go
Speaker 1: your way.
Speaker 2: End quote.
Speaker 1: Coco also posted a picture of the trophy on her
Speaker 1: Instagram story with a caption referring to folks saying that
Speaker 1: she only wins WTA two to fifty tournaments aka lower
Speaker 1: level tournaments, and she wrote, quote she only wins two fifties.
Speaker 2: Womp womp end quote. In response, a fan wrote, Coco
Speaker 2: has the mentality of a five year old. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: and I thought.
Speaker 1: Coco's response to the fan was beautiful and worth sharing.
Speaker 1: She wrote, Honestly, kids have the best outlook on life.
Speaker 1: They're so positive and creative, so I'll take it. My
Speaker 1: goal this tournament was to play and enjoy tennis as
Speaker 1: much as I did when I was a kid, because
Speaker 1: that's when life was slash is.
Speaker 2: The most fun end quote. I love it. Congrats on
Speaker 2: the win.
Speaker 1: Coco to soccer a few things in the NWSL, and
Speaker 1: let's start with money, because an NWSL investigation found that
Speaker 1: Angel City FC breached the league's salary cap and the
Speaker 1: club received a two hundred thousand dollars fine plus a
Speaker 1: three point deduction in the standings. The three point deduction
Speaker 1: is the largest in NWSL history, and it really hurts
Speaker 1: a team that's battling several others for a playoff spot.
Speaker 1: In addition to the fine end points deduction, also two
Speaker 1: front office members, including team president and CEO Julie Erman,
Speaker 1: have been suspended from quote conducting duties related to any
Speaker 1: player transactions end quote until January. An NWSL news release
Speaker 1: says the violations come from Angel City entering into five
Speaker 1: side letters directly with players that affected multi year agreements
Speaker 1: and were not disclosed to the lead league in deals
Speaker 1: that were executed last year. This compensated the players in
Speaker 1: excess of what was reported to the league in their contracts.
Speaker 1: Those undisclosed benefits put Angel City over the salary cap
Speaker 1: by about fifty thousand dollars for four weeks during the season.
Speaker 1: Might not sound like that much, but it feels like
Speaker 1: the NWSL is trying to make an example of them
Speaker 1: because of just how big and dangerous it might get
Speaker 1: if sides keep doing the side deals to get players
Speaker 1: to stick around or sign future deals. NWSL also said
Speaker 1: it's going to conduct annual investigations and audits of player
Speaker 1: spending league wide. In game action, the Pride continued their
Speaker 1: record unbeaten streak with a two nil win over the
Speaker 1: second place Washington Spirit on Sunday. That's twenty three straight
Speaker 1: games without a loss. The win also clinched the first
Speaker 1: National Women Soccer League Shield for the Pride, who secured
Speaker 1: the league's top regular season record with three games remaining. Also,
Speaker 1: Casey Current forward ten which Chewinga tied the record for
Speaker 1: goals scored in a single season. She scored in the
Speaker 1: second minute of a two to zero win over Racing
Speaker 1: Louisville on Saturday. The goal mark Tuwinga's eighteenth of the season,
Speaker 1: which ties the record that Sam Curse with the Chicago
Speaker 1: Red Stars back in twenty nineteen. Sam still got the
Speaker 1: backflips after goals, though I haven't seen a single backflip
Speaker 1: from Chuenga, so I guess something to work on.
Speaker 2: Twina's first chance.
Speaker 1: To break the record and make it her own is
Speaker 1: next Saturday, October twelfth, when the Current traveled to face BAFC.
Speaker 2: More soccer news and we love this news.
Speaker 1: Brazilian and global legend Marta told the Athletics she plans
Speaker 1: to play pro soccer for at least two more years.
Speaker 2: That is a huge sigh.
Speaker 1: Of relief on the heels of her retirement from international
Speaker 1: soccer and after we've already had to deal with the
Speaker 1: retirements of other players like Alex Morgan and Christine Sinclair
Speaker 1: and Kelly O'Hara. Important to note, the Paris Olympic silver
Speaker 1: medalist Marta said she's not sure if she'll remain in Orlando.
Speaker 1: Her current contract with the undefeated Pride is up after
Speaker 1: this season. Also some news we've been hoping here for
Speaker 1: a long time. On Thursday, the FIFA Council pledged a
Speaker 1: recommendation to the International Olympic Committee to expand its women's
Speaker 1: soccer competition to sixteen teams. Now you know, the Olympic
Speaker 1: tourney currently has twelve teams, four fewer than the men.
Speaker 1: The women's tournament started in ninety six with eight teams.
Speaker 1: That number goo to ten and four and twelve in eight.
Speaker 1: It is now FIFA's hope that the switch to sixteen
Speaker 1: teams will be made in time for the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: eight Olympics. In La to volleyball, I just want to
Speaker 1: mention that we are keeping an eye on this San
Speaker 1: Jose State volleyball story. If you haven't heard, this Spartans team,
Speaker 1: who started the season with nine straight wins, has had
Speaker 1: four of their matches canceled recently, and that includes three
Speaker 1: of their Mountain West Conference opponents, Boise State, Wyoming, and
Speaker 1: Utah State all choosing forfeits in league play instead of.
Speaker 2: Competing against them now.
Speaker 1: None of the schools have publicly said why the matches
Speaker 1: were forfeited, but the presence of a reported transgender athlete
Speaker 1: on the San Jose State team is believed to be
Speaker 1: behind the decisions, with her status generating an increasing amount
Speaker 1: of national media coverage despite her having been there.
Speaker 2: For several years.
Speaker 1: We're going to get some good reporting on that, so
Speaker 1: stay tuned for more conversation.
Speaker 2: Little Hockey News.
Speaker 1: USA Hockey announced the roster for the program's three game
Speaker 1: rivalry series against Canada this November. Longtime national team style
Speaker 1: Wars Hillary Knight and Kendall Coin Schofielder on the team,
Speaker 1: along with nine current college players. PWHL also have some
Speaker 1: preseason action in November, the league announcing there'll be two
Speaker 1: concurrent mini camps from November nineteenth through the twenty second.
Speaker 1: Montreal Victoire will host the Boston Fleet and Ottawa Charge,
Speaker 1: while Minnesota Frost and New York Sirens will travel to
Speaker 1: the Toronto Scepters. Each team can bring thirty two players
Speaker 1: to the camp to play scrimmages. Final rosters will be
Speaker 1: capped at twenty three active players.
Speaker 2: Finally, some fun news.
Speaker 1: Glamour Women of the Year were announced and Serena Williams,
Speaker 1: Sony Lee, and Allison Felix are among those named. Lee
Speaker 1: battled kidney disease to make it back to the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four Paris Games and win gold. We told you
Speaker 1: all about that during the Olympics. Serena Williams honored for
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of partnerships and endeavors post retirement, including
Speaker 1: her makeup line Win Beauty, and a venture fund that
Speaker 1: focuses much of its investments in founders who are women
Speaker 1: or people of color. And Felix, well, she won the
Speaker 1: Face of Change Award. Michael McKenzie wrote of Felix, quote,
Speaker 1: she might be retired, but in some ways the Olympic
Speaker 1: track and field legend is just getting started. She's got
Speaker 1: a new baby, a forthcoming memoir, a NonStop commitment to
Speaker 1: mothers in sports, and as a result of her tireless advocacy,
Speaker 1: a twenty million dollar grant from Melinda French Gates end quote.
Speaker 2: Pretty awesome stuff. As the WNBA Playoffs roll on.
Speaker 1: I want to take a quick second for us all
Speaker 1: to learn a little herstory.
Speaker 2: Shall we a little on this day in women's sports?
Speaker 1: So on October seventh, twenty eleven, the Minnesota Links won
Speaker 1: their first WNBA title, defeating the Atlanta Dream seventy three
Speaker 1: to sixty seven. Links guard slash forward Simone Augustus named
Speaker 1: Finals MVP after leading the Links to a sweep in
Speaker 1: the best of five series. She put up twenty two
Speaker 1: points seven assists in Game one and a franchise playoff
Speaker 1: record thirty six points in Game two, including fifteen in
Speaker 1: the fourth quarter, then playoff record. Of course, we've seen
Speaker 1: the FISA Kllier do more. Since the Links have won
Speaker 1: four titles total. They're looking for number five this season,
Speaker 1: but obviously they got to win on Tuesday to keep
Speaker 1: their run alive.
Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break.
Speaker 1: When we come back, we chat about reactions to our
Speaker 1: Christine Brennan interview. Stay tuned, welcome back slices. Like I said,
Speaker 1: lots more WNBA playof talk to come this week. But
Speaker 1: while the text and emails and voicemails are all still
Speaker 1: coming in about our Christine Brennan interview last week, we
Speaker 1: wanted to get into some of your thoughts and also
Speaker 1: some things we heard from folks in the w space too.
Speaker 2: So a couple things have happened since.
Speaker 1: Then, and one of them is if you remember, in
Speaker 1: the interview, Christine Brennan talked about her exchange with Dewanna
Speaker 1: Bonner and kind of patted herself on the back for
Speaker 1: wanting to talk more about it, wanting to share the
Speaker 1: thinking behind her interview with Djane Carrington, and feeling a
Speaker 1: little bit like Bonner wasn't interested in shaking her hand
Speaker 1: or engaging. As it turns out, I heard from two
Speaker 1: sources I made sure to confirm with the second that
Speaker 1: Brennan actually filed a complaint to the WNBA about that
Speaker 1: exchange with Dewanna Bonner. Kind of surprising based on how
Speaker 1: she characterized it in the interview with us, but perhaps
Speaker 1: not surprising based on the tenor that she takes in
Speaker 1: some of her work.
Speaker 2: Mesh Alex, I want to bring you in on this.
Speaker 1: That was kind of shocking to hear that she presented
Speaker 1: that as this opportunity for her to engage where she
Speaker 1: was rejected and rather than trying to figure out why
Speaker 1: do Wanna might not want to shake her hand and
Speaker 1: get into it.
Speaker 2: She filed a complaint. What do you make of that
Speaker 2: niche It's.
Speaker 3: Tough to hear, you know what I mean, It's tough
Speaker 3: to hear, especially when it was presented in a certain way.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I like to think that we can get past the
Speaker 3: egos of it all and we can get to a
Speaker 3: point where, all right, it's no longer about you're right,
Speaker 3: I'm wrong. It's about what's right for our league and
Speaker 3: what's right for our relationships player.
Speaker 2: To media player.
Speaker 3: It's a fan, you know, the other way around. And
Speaker 3: I'm just it's upsetting that somebody who's been in the
Speaker 3: game this long, who was telling us about all the
Speaker 3: things that she knows about being a journalist journalism one
Speaker 3: O one would then go and do something like that
Speaker 3: and then misrepresent it in an interview that just, I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, it frustrating. It bothered me. It definitely was frustrating. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and Alex, I can't confirm the language.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the complaint, but the sources told me
Speaker 1: the language was that Dowanna Bonner accosted her again. This
Speaker 1: feels like it's that coded language that we are are
Speaker 1: so concerned with in this league and coded and loaded.
Speaker 2: Coded and loaded. Absolutely, yeah, Well what did you make
Speaker 2: of hearing that?
Speaker 4: What stands out to me about all of that is
Speaker 4: the fact that, similar to how at the end of
Speaker 4: your conversation with Christine Sarah, she was saying, you know,
Speaker 4: come and talk to me. I want to hear from people.
Speaker 4: Maybe she wants quotes for a book, but I don't
Speaker 4: think she's actually listening to what people are saying. And
Speaker 4: even in the story that she re kinded to you, Sarah,
Speaker 4: she's saying, you know, I told Dowana, like here, I'll
Speaker 4: show you a video of the interview that I did,
Speaker 4: as if that would change Douana's opinion. Trust that Dowana
Speaker 4: has spoken to her teammate and is coming at this
Speaker 4: from a place of understanding what she's talking about, as
Speaker 4: opposed to if only you see more of my coverage,
Speaker 4: then you'll understand where I'm coming from.
Speaker 1: It's about talking instead of listening, which is what the
Speaker 1: interview felt like too. Right, Let me give you more
Speaker 1: of my credentials, let me tell you more people who
Speaker 1: are going to be part of the book. Let me
Speaker 1: tell you more of what done instead of let me
Speaker 1: listen to the feedback that you're trying to give to
Speaker 1: see if maybe it will change my perspective on what's happened.
Speaker 1: And we got a lot of great voicemails and emails.
Speaker 1: I've heard from a lot of folks in the space
Speaker 1: and in the journalism space, including some who said that
Speaker 1: their natural reaction was to presume that Christine had been
Speaker 1: sort of wrongly singled out or attacked, only to learn
Speaker 1: more of the context, to listen to our interview and
Speaker 1: feel like they now understood that things were a little different,
Speaker 1: maybe than what they had imagined. I also had a
Speaker 1: chance to talk to some players and some folks who
Speaker 1: had thoughts about the interview, and a couple interesting things
Speaker 1: came out of that that I can share, which is
Speaker 1: that the Associated Press Sports Editors reached out to the
Speaker 1: WNBPA after their statement and wanted to set up a
Speaker 1: call with them to figure out how they can make
Speaker 1: sure that their reporters and editors are doing things well,
Speaker 1: are contributing to the space in a way that's fair,
Speaker 1: are asking tough questions, doing journalism, but doing so in
Speaker 1: a way that understands the context in which they're doing it,
Speaker 1: which I really respected and so did they.
Speaker 2: Also.
Speaker 1: Interestingly, I found out that the NFLPA has reached out
Speaker 1: to the WNBA about their locker room decision making as
Speaker 1: they are pursuing that decision for themselves. We're going to
Speaker 1: get into that topic of locker room access and the
Speaker 1: changing space a little bit later this week, but I
Speaker 1: thought that was interesting too, and it was yet another
Speaker 1: example of.
Speaker 2: The WNBA and the WNBAPA.
Speaker 1: Being sort of ahead of the game in sports, looking
Speaker 1: at a space, looking at interactions with journalists and thinking
Speaker 1: something needs to change or we can do this better.
Speaker 1: And the fact that there are people and there are
Speaker 1: media outlets trying to engage in good faith to say
Speaker 1: what isn't working and why has this been so tense
Speaker 1: and awkward this year is really nice to see and
Speaker 1: they should be called out for doing that. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that came up in the conversation with
Speaker 1: the AP sports editors was how to make sure that
Speaker 1: the headlines of things match the intent of the authors,
Speaker 1: Because if the columnist is the one doing all the
Speaker 1: work showing up to practice, showing up to games, interviewing
Speaker 1: the players, and putting time and effort into having the
Speaker 1: nuance in it, and then the headline is what ends
Speaker 1: up being seen and shared, and that doesn't reflect that
Speaker 1: same nuance that creates some of the issues.
Speaker 2: And we talked about this both all of us.
Speaker 1: You know, part of it is being lazy in coverage
Speaker 1: and letting what's out there on social media like the
Speaker 1: tail wagon the dog. You're supposed to be the one
Speaker 1: that's creating the content and understanding the stories and leading
Speaker 1: the way, not following what's being said on social and
Speaker 1: we heard that from a handful of our listeners. Angelina
Speaker 1: called in with this really excellent thought, So we'll play
Speaker 1: this really quick.
Speaker 5: What my frustration boiled down to, having listened to that
Speaker 5: interview in four parts, because it kept shooting my blood
Speaker 5: pressure up, is that at the core of her defensiveness,
Speaker 5: at the core of her justification for how she's choosing
Speaker 5: to move as a journalist, is an unresolvable contradiction. Repeatedly,
Speaker 5: she said, Twitter's assesspool acts assessed poo, social media dissess
Speaker 5: will be your trolls. I can't control them. I can't
Speaker 5: control how people respond. But she can control how she
Speaker 5: responds to those trolls and the way she has chosen
Speaker 5: to respond to them is by taking their framing, taking
Speaker 5: their narratives, and giving it to you, giving her platform
Speaker 5: to those trolls, giving them a microphone.
Speaker 1: I think that really makes sense, Misha and Alex, that yes,
Speaker 1: you can be a part of the space in part
Speaker 1: by engaging online and seeing what people are talking about.
Speaker 1: But you get to choose which of those things you amplify,
Speaker 1: which things you ask questions about. And Misha, I think
Speaker 1: that was one of the biggest issues here is to
Speaker 1: not just shrug your shoulders and say, these are the
Speaker 1: questions I'm asking because they're out there, but to decide
Speaker 1: which questions are worth asking, which is what you would
Speaker 1: do in any space and.
Speaker 3: In the time even before we could we confirm this
Speaker 3: interview with Christine Brennan.
Speaker 2: Sarah, I don't know if you remember, but you.
Speaker 3: Myself and Alex were having conversations about this exact topic before,
Speaker 3: and for me, that's always the hill I'm going to
Speaker 3: die on. I don't care about the ratings. I don't
Speaker 3: care about what's popular on social media. That's not what's important.
Speaker 3: What's important is telling the truth and telling the real
Speaker 3: story that's happening and unfolding on front of our eyes.
Speaker 3: And when we, like you said, allow the tale to
Speaker 3: wag the dog, allow everybody and everything that isn't informed
Speaker 3: on what's happening in this space dictate what we decide
Speaker 3: to talk about.
Speaker 2: Then what are we even doing? Like, what's the point?
Speaker 4: I think one of the things I've seen in the
Speaker 4: last couple of years is that one as an editor,
Speaker 4: I have had access to viewership data, and I know
Speaker 4: that if you put Kaitlin Clark in a headline, you're
Speaker 4: going to get more clicks on it. Put Kaitlyn Clark's
Speaker 4: photo on the top of story, You're going to get
Speaker 4: more clicks on it. And I say that because I
Speaker 4: think you have to acknowledge the reality of what people
Speaker 4: are up against in terms of deciding what's going to
Speaker 4: focus their coverage. I'm not saying that you should be
Speaker 4: putting Kaitlin Clark's name in every headline or that you
Speaker 4: should be putting her photo on every story. But when
Speaker 4: editors and writers are under pressure sure to get more
Speaker 4: clicks to keep their job, that is not creating an
Speaker 4: environment that is creating the best journalism. And so is
Speaker 4: there a way to have more of a firewall between
Speaker 4: those viewership metrics and the coverage that is being done,
Speaker 4: because to be clear, I think there are plenty of
Speaker 4: fantastic reporters and editors out there that are not letting
Speaker 4: those metrics guide their coverage. But having seen it myself,
Speaker 4: I know that there is often an incentive to do
Speaker 4: certain storylines because they're going to bring in more viewers.
Speaker 1: And that's a great point because I think I even
Speaker 1: mentioned to both Christine and I've mentioned on in our
Speaker 1: conversations and in conversations with other people. I'm not blaming
Speaker 1: people for the amount of Katelyn coverage, and I think
Speaker 1: looking at white whale in the eye and being like, no,
Speaker 1: thank you isn't great either, right, And we've seen it
Speaker 1: in the past. I remember talking to my really esteemed
Speaker 1: colleague who I respect, really respect, Kate Pagan, about Pagebeckers
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago and how it was frustrating
Speaker 1: that it was another white player getting all of the
Speaker 1: attention while the black players weren't. Right and do we
Speaker 1: then intentionally not cover her or do we say, this
Speaker 1: is an opportunity to bring attention to women's basketball, and
Speaker 1: while you're here, let's yes and it ooh, Paige Becker's
Speaker 1: and while you're here, check this out too, right, And
Speaker 1: I think that's the balance you have to seek. The
Speaker 1: difference is something I said to Christina as well. If
Speaker 1: you're say ESPN and you know that Caitlin Clark's going
Speaker 1: to get all the clicks, you can do that if
Speaker 1: there's a story that makes sense. But if it's like,
Speaker 1: for instance, what I saw in the playoff game where
Speaker 1: within two minutes of that play with dj A Carrington,
Speaker 1: there was a thumbnail image up that said, Kaitlyn Clark
Speaker 1: black eye.
Speaker 2: You know why you're doing that?
Speaker 1: And that is something that you have to consider the
Speaker 1: repercussions of understanding the narratives that exist. I still don't
Speaker 1: know if ESPN would come back and say, that's a
Speaker 1: big story people want to see, if people want to
Speaker 1: know about it. But again, it's like, how do you
Speaker 1: reconcile your responsibility for driving coverage with your responsibility to
Speaker 1: minimize harm?
Speaker 3: And it's framing. You know, it's framing at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, if you're just gonna say black eye.
Speaker 1: Right, or the worst headline that I called out, the
Speaker 1: worst head that said that said, you know, Caitlin Clark
Speaker 1: gets black eye from player who previously mocked her. It's like,
Speaker 1: what do we this That sounds like you're creating sort
Speaker 1: of causation correlation thing, which you know. So I think
Speaker 1: the other thing, speaking of dj Carrington, that we've learned
Speaker 1: in the last couple of days that you know, talking
Speaker 1: to people about that exchange in particular, and the larger
Speaker 1: body of Christine's work that caused the WNBPA to be
Speaker 1: frustrated was that after her two questions that we did hear,
Speaker 1: another reporter jumped in to ask dj A about what
Speaker 1: it was like to plan under a microscope. And then
Speaker 1: there's another Christine Brennan question, and Alex, I want you
Speaker 1: to kind of set up this situation and like what
Speaker 1: people are hearing and how it follows the exchange we've
Speaker 1: heard a million times from that exchange between Brennan and DJNA.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Another reporter jumped in, I think actually kind of
Speaker 4: building off of Christine's questions of hey, you're playing under
Speaker 4: a spotlight in which something like you make in contact
Speaker 4: with Kaitlin Clark is going to lead to stupid questions
Speaker 4: like these my words not that reporters, right, right, And
Speaker 4: then Christine jumped in to ask what do you think
Speaker 4: of Kaitlyn Clark? And a reporter who was part of
Speaker 4: that scrum sent us the audio and let's just roll
Speaker 4: that tape. When do you think of.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: That's the next question. I think he's a good player.
Speaker 1: And yeah, now listen in a complete vacuum. What do
Speaker 1: you think of Kaitlyn Clark is a perfectly fine question.
Speaker 1: She's a great player, she's having a great rookie season,
Speaker 1: she's breaking.
Speaker 2: A lot of records.
Speaker 1: When you ask that question immediately after the accusatory first question,
Speaker 1: the follow up that was frankly nonsensical since the laughing
Speaker 1: caught on camera was three quarters later after someone hit
Speaker 1: a three and they were doing a celebration.
Speaker 2: Then you follow those questions up with what do you
Speaker 2: think of Kaitlyn Clark?
Speaker 1: Again, it's about contact next, and interesting that she didn't
Speaker 1: include that in the clip that she shared on Twitter,
Speaker 1: almost as if she understands that that was going to
Speaker 1: be poorly received. I'm not sure why she didn't understand
Speaker 1: that the first two would be poorly received, but again,
Speaker 1: it might be that what we just talked about she
Speaker 1: knew a lot of people would share it.
Speaker 2: And talk about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, I think it makes her intention behind
Speaker 4: asking the first two questions even clearer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I just want to reiterate here that
Speaker 3: the main the thesis here for me is nobody is
Speaker 3: above correction, nobody is above learning, nobody is above continuing
Speaker 3: to grow in their reporting. In fact, I think it's
Speaker 3: a responsibility that we all have. If we're going to
Speaker 3: call ourselves big j journalists, you can't refuse.
Speaker 2: To hear feedback.
Speaker 3: And I think it's an issue we see reflected in
Speaker 3: a lot of different parts of our everyday lives too,
Speaker 3: Like people just thinking, because I've done X, Y and Z,
Speaker 3: I'm cool doing whatever, people will believe me. You said
Speaker 3: it yourself, Sarah. That a lot of folks, before they
Speaker 3: really understood the context behind what was happening, they were
Speaker 3: quick to say, you know what, I'm already on Christine's
Speaker 3: side because I know her body of work, and so
Speaker 3: I just want this to serve as yet another lesson
Speaker 3: that you know, age doesn't equal maturity, age doesn't equal wisdom.
Speaker 3: There are so many different things that we all need to,
Speaker 3: you know, continue to work.
Speaker 1: On as you do, but not just age. Experience and
Speaker 1: that's that's you know. What I said after our interview
Speaker 1: is like, yes, there's a body of work where you've
Speaker 1: taken into context things and you've written with things with nuance,
Speaker 1: But the fact that you've done that in the past
Speaker 1: won't mitigate the harm you cause if you aren't doing
Speaker 1: that now.
Speaker 2: And that's the really important part.
Speaker 4: I just was going to build off of what Misha said,
Speaker 4: because I think sometimes people look at the conversations that
Speaker 4: are being had in the WNBA space as gatekeeping, and
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't think that that term is accurate
Speaker 4: for a lot of reasons. In fact, I actually think
Speaker 4: that having been a new reporter to the WNBA space myself,
Speaker 4: I didn't really grow up watching the WNB. I didn't
Speaker 4: grow up playing basketball, and so when I arrived in
Speaker 4: the space, I had a lot of questions about how
Speaker 4: things worked. But I came in with questions as opposed
Speaker 4: to assumptions about how things worked. And I think that
Speaker 4: was kind of the most disappointing part about Christine's reporting
Speaker 4: this whole season, is that as somebody with so much
Speaker 4: experience in the sports world, having a fresh perspective can
Speaker 4: be so valuable to seeing this thing doesn't make sense
Speaker 4: to me, or there's a better way to do this,
Speaker 4: or why are players not being marketed? But instead of
Speaker 4: coming in with those questions and asking questions, she came
Speaker 4: in with a thesis yeah, and then ask questions to
Speaker 4: help support it.
Speaker 1: You know, one of our slices actually wrote us something
Speaker 1: really thoughtful about that. We got to take a quick
Speaker 1: break when we come back. You'll hear that slices commentary.
Speaker 2: It's coming up right after this Welcome back. Slice's just
Speaker 2: a couple more thoughts on this.
Speaker 1: And I mentioned before the break that there was a
Speaker 1: Slice who wrote in with some interesting thoughts that parallel
Speaker 1: some of what Alex just had to say.
Speaker 2: So this is from Stacy.
Speaker 1: She wrote, quote, yes, she can make an observation and
Speaker 1: write about Caitlin Clark's impact on the league, but she
Speaker 1: didn't care enough to go any further on the WNBA
Speaker 1: as a whole in its history is a reflection of
Speaker 1: her what bias Caitlin clark fangirling ability to see herself
Speaker 1: assists white woman in Kitlyn Clark and be swept up
Speaker 1: in the frenzy enough to finally pay attention to the
Speaker 1: w and make herself an authority a privilege not afforded
Speaker 1: to journalists of color in majority white spaces. Looking at you, Tennis,
Speaker 1: She could have used her platform and her legions of
Speaker 1: readers to truly advocate and amplify the league. Yet she
Speaker 1: consciously or unconsciously focused solely on Kitlon Clark, the bright,
Speaker 1: new shiny thing.
Speaker 2: That's lazy.
Speaker 1: She could have made a difference, and instead we just
Speaker 1: have this perpetuation of shit. She missed a massive opportunity.
Speaker 1: So here's what I agree with Stacy. I don't think
Speaker 1: she or anyone would show up to say, an NFL
Speaker 1: space or an NBA space without putting the work in first.
Speaker 1: They would be so afraid of the response, right, the
Speaker 1: criticism from players, coaches, other media. I think there's a
Speaker 1: real expectation when you showed up to cover something of
Speaker 1: making sure that you know what you're talking about, even
Speaker 1: if you're new, and you'll ask questions to make sure
Speaker 1: that you are doing it right and you get things right.
Speaker 1: I think she showed up with a real ego about
Speaker 1: her history, and in that way was pretty disrespectful to
Speaker 1: the league and its players about what they deserved from
Speaker 1: a journalist.
Speaker 2: Because Alex I.
Speaker 1: Just think showing up to a space doing what seems
Speaker 1: like very little work to understand the nuance in the
Speaker 1: history and how you might be contributing to some of
Speaker 1: the issues there is fundamentally sort of disrespectful or presuming
Speaker 1: that it's small potatoes enough that you don't have to bother.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I think too. Every space is different, and
Speaker 4: reporting on figure skating is different than reporting on golf
Speaker 4: is different than reporting on the WNBA. And I often
Speaker 4: come back to the fact that we are this is
Speaker 4: a league where players still do not have a lot
Speaker 4: of control or autonomy or money even and so the
Speaker 4: situations that they are being put in while making one
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars a year with that salary, you maybe
Speaker 4: can't pay for security or a house that makes you
Speaker 4: feel safe, like all of these things that we expect
Speaker 4: pro athletes to have in the WNBA, those things aren't
Speaker 4: always a given. And so coming in and just saying
Speaker 4: I always ask questions like this doesn't reflect the space
Speaker 4: that you have entered.
Speaker 1: And the specificity of the toxicity around women, black women, right,
Speaker 1: queer women, mask presenting women, Like at every element that
Speaker 1: you add, there is more of an inherent lack of
Speaker 1: safety in society, not to mention when in a spotlight,
Speaker 1: not to mention when presented as a foe er an.
Speaker 2: Opponent to a white lady.
Speaker 1: And that matters so much because, yes, black male athletes
Speaker 1: certainly have to deal with the issues of racism in society.
Speaker 1: But that's one of the things that is not all
Speaker 1: of the things I just listed, and that matters so
Speaker 1: much in terms of whether she considered that in her work.
Speaker 2: Right, Mesh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the other thing I'll add here is that
Speaker 3: exact descripture you just gave about positive yourself as an
Speaker 3: expert in a space where you're not an expert. I'm
Speaker 3: just gonna say it's a few other people who could
Speaker 3: learn that lesson as well, and I'm gonna drop the Micrade.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that's what I said at the
Speaker 2: end of the interview.
Speaker 1: That's been all season long, right, has been people with
Speaker 1: the loudest voice and the biggest platform getting heard the most,
Speaker 1: not the ones who necessarily.
Speaker 2: Know the most.
Speaker 1: And I even told you all when we were starting
Speaker 1: this show, I said to you, I've spent the last
Speaker 1: thirteen years covering men's and women's sports. I have covered
Speaker 1: women's sports when I could, I have also covered a
Speaker 1: lot of men's sports.
Speaker 2: I have a ton to learn, meish.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come to you for hoops a lot, because
Speaker 1: that's what you've been like, really diving in alex I'm
Speaker 1: gonna come to you for Olympic sports because you're such
Speaker 1: an expert in that. I'm gonna show up and tell
Speaker 1: you when I don't know something because I don't need to.
Speaker 1: I'm comfortable enough with my work and myself to say
Speaker 1: I don't know all the things and I want to
Speaker 1: keep learning them. And that's what so many people showed
Speaker 1: up in this space without doing, and that's tough. A
Speaker 1: couple last things really quick. You know, when I was
Speaker 1: talking to some of the players and WNBPA folks about
Speaker 1: just this general season, the one thing I did say
Speaker 1: is I don't want it to be sick of fantic
Speaker 1: or one voice. Because we're all trying so hard to
Speaker 1: offset years of garbage. There still needs to be journalism
Speaker 1: done and the players can be respected enough to know
Speaker 1: that they know the difference between tough questions journalism, the
Speaker 1: kind of things that you're going to get as a
Speaker 1: pro athlete as your league gets bigger.
Speaker 2: And more popular.
Speaker 1: The difference between that in feeding into troll narratives, not
Speaker 1: doing the work, being lazy, ignoring nuance. And I want
Speaker 1: to make sure people listen and get that too, because
Speaker 1: I've seen, you know, during this award season. Not I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna say bullying, that's like too extreme of a term,
Speaker 1: but like basically groups of people online being like we
Speaker 1: got to find out who voted for whatever, like they
Speaker 1: must be motivated by something beyond opinion, right, And I
Speaker 1: even felt like we called out Becky Hammond for being like,
Speaker 1: oh you had to dive into a whole define a
Speaker 1: feast of Colliers Defensive Player of the Year, And that's
Speaker 1: just I felt like group think cannot be the goal. Yes,
Speaker 1: there should be way more understanding of the things at
Speaker 1: play when someone doesn't get the coverage of sponsorships, the awards,
Speaker 1: the etc. Potentially because they're a black woman. But also
Speaker 1: it can't be the reverse of like now everybody has
Speaker 1: to have the same opinion all the time, or else
Speaker 1: we're going to presume that they're coming from a bad
Speaker 1: place and that journalism is like what's going to help
Speaker 1: the league continue to grow and get better. So that
Speaker 1: has to be there too, And I think you guys
Speaker 1: both agree.
Speaker 3: With that, right, Oh yeah, definitely, it's it's not negotiable.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of our callers, I think, admitted to being new
Speaker 1: to the space, not knowing anybody in the space, including
Speaker 1: me or Christine. Something that she did say that I
Speaker 1: thought was meaningful was that as a new fan, she's
Speaker 1: just looking everywhere to listen and hear people talking about things,
Speaker 1: and she's trying to learn, and she feels like everyone
Speaker 1: in the space is so tense. She's like, I'm new,
Speaker 1: but like all the podcasts I'm listening to, and like
Speaker 1: your interview and other interviews, everyone feels like they're going
Speaker 1: to say the wrong thing where there's always like this tension,
Speaker 1: and that is true. That is how this space has
Speaker 1: felt all season long. And it's been tough because sometimes
Speaker 1: you do have a fair question where you do have
Speaker 1: a different opinion and you're like, I'm not even going
Speaker 1: to share it. I'd mentioned this before, but like I'm
Speaker 1: either progressive woke and that's why I'm saying something, or
Speaker 1: I'm an old white lady and that's why I'm saying something,
Speaker 1: and either way, someone's going to filter it through that
Speaker 1: to criticize it. So sometimes I just go all right,
Speaker 1: I'm saving this for a time I can have more
Speaker 1: of a conversation on it. But I don't want us
Speaker 1: to feel that way either, where it feels like, you know,
Speaker 1: you can't do journalism and have thoughts and positive questions.
Speaker 4: I think part of what contributed to that is one
Speaker 4: the fact that we as a society don't allow a
Speaker 4: lot of space for gray area.
Speaker 2: Right now, right right.
Speaker 4: People are complex. Sometimes we agree with them, sometimes we don't.
Speaker 4: But two, you know, I think we could talk about Christine.
Speaker 4: It felt like had a lot of blind spots in
Speaker 4: her coverage of the WNBA and the way that she
Speaker 4: went fully focused on Caitlin Clark. But I also think
Speaker 4: stream media has blind spots in the fact that you know,
Speaker 4: Christine was talking about her resume and all the places
Speaker 4: where she is asked to speak on these topics because
Speaker 4: Christine is still known as women's sports person, and so
Speaker 4: viewers on CNN, viewers on PBS, viewers on ABC are
Speaker 4: hearing Christine's thoughts, thinking oh, this is a reflection of
Speaker 4: what's happening in the WBA, and that is then adding
Speaker 4: to the narratives that we are seeing.
Speaker 1: One of our slices pointed that out very wisely too,
Speaker 1: And actually, someone I know that's writing a book on
Speaker 1: women's sports said, interesting that that's where Scribner went to
Speaker 1: someone who hasn't covered women's basketball other than a little
Speaker 1: bit of Olympic coverage.
Speaker 2: Because that's the name that they know.
Speaker 1: No, you know, she's written a best selling book, several books,
Speaker 1: so no shade to that. But it is interesting how
Speaker 1: sometimes you can become sort of this idea of something
Speaker 1: and in practice it might not be a reality, and
Speaker 1: that to great point Alex can lead to the coverage
Speaker 1: being led by someone maybe that isn't as informed.
Speaker 2: Last little thought here.
Speaker 1: According to Terry Jackson, she expected people to be asking
Speaker 1: did the WNBPA react to Greg Doyle at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the season when he gave Caitlin the her hands
Speaker 1: and eventually got pulled off of coverage. She said she
Speaker 1: went to the league on that too, and they didn't
Speaker 1: really do anything. That it was ultimately his own newspaper
Speaker 1: that pulled him off. The beat that the league has
Speaker 1: taken a real hands off approach to regulating who's covering,
Speaker 1: presumably in an attempt to allow more coverage and more
Speaker 1: voices and whatever, and that's a push and pull between
Speaker 1: the league and the WNBPA about what's opening up the
Speaker 1: league to more publicity and more eyeballs and what's potentially
Speaker 1: not helpful to the league. I do think that Christine
Speaker 1: Brennan was singled out because of expectations for her right
Speaker 1: and because of the influence she can have as somebody
Speaker 1: who is seen as somebody who covers women's sports and
Speaker 1: speaks for women in a very different way than other
Speaker 1: places that do shit coverage, but people don't expect much
Speaker 1: from them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wanted to add one thing to that because, again,
Speaker 4: like I mentioned, I a few years ago new to
Speaker 4: the space, and at that point I was writing for
Speaker 4: NBC as a full time editor, but basically a writer.
Speaker 4: And the point I want to make is that a
Speaker 4: lot of people on the outside may not realize that
Speaker 4: most of the people in the space are not being
Speaker 4: paid and so there are far fewer professionals and I'm
Speaker 4: using the term professional there meaning being paid full time
Speaker 4: getting health benefits to do this work. That's not an
Speaker 4: indication of the work that they are doing, because oftentimes
Speaker 4: they are doing work that meets professional guidelines. And so
Speaker 4: I think going just big picture. This is a space
Speaker 4: where there has not always been an outlet to take
Speaker 4: control over its reporters if they are not acting in
Speaker 4: a healthy, respectable manner towards players, because that is usually
Speaker 4: where the outlet would come in to say, hey, Greg Doyle,
Speaker 4: you're out of line. You're not covering the fever this season.
Speaker 4: But because USA Today did not do that with Christine,
Speaker 4: and because she works for an outlet that typically would
Speaker 4: do that, unlike plenty of other spaces in the WNBA
Speaker 4: media space, I think that's also where this is coming from.
Speaker 1: One percent, one thousand percent, And that's a great point
Speaker 1: because especially a lot of startup, smaller websites or places,
Speaker 1: they're not going to have the same just general guidelines
Speaker 1: or idea of how to control the reporters that work
Speaker 1: for them, or a desire to abide by an expectation.
Speaker 1: So that's that's a really great point. There's so much
Speaker 1: more we could say on this. We so appreciate the
Speaker 1: feedback we've gotten. That was a tough interview and it
Speaker 1: was frustrating at times, and I hope that some of
Speaker 1: the responses just get Christine to just assess, you know,
Speaker 1: some of what she's doing and I really appreciate all
Speaker 1: y'all sticking with it and listening and sending us all
Speaker 1: that feedback.
Speaker 2: We love that you're always listening. But you know, we.
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