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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stop Mom? Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From house Stop works dot com. Hey, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is Molly and I'm Kristin Kristen. What was your

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Speaker 1: best date ever? My best date ever? UM? If you

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Speaker 1: really want me to talk about it honestly, I mean, okay,

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Speaker 1: well what a what a good a good recent first date?

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Speaker 1: UM that I went on? UM went to dinner, nice

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Speaker 1: dinner place I really enjoy. And then I went to

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Speaker 1: the UM a building roof that looks over our beautiful

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Speaker 1: Atlanta skyline. You can see all the skylines around Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Was around sunset. That sounds lovely. It was pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever gone to like a soda fountain and

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Speaker 1: split a Sunday with a boy and you had to

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Speaker 1: sent two straws? No? But I have you know, eating

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Speaker 1: spaghetti from the same plate and we actually ended up

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Speaker 1: eating the same noodle and then it ended in a

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Speaker 1: kiss that's so adorable. That never happened, remember tended did? Okay?

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Speaker 1: But do you know how like that sort of presented

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Speaker 1: in some classic movies? Just the typical date? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: the soda fountain date, the chocolate malt. I'm gonna put

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Speaker 1: it out there right now that I really want to

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Speaker 1: go to a soda fountain on a date. Okay, but

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Speaker 1: do you know that I might never and do you

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Speaker 1: know why? Because there aren't many soda fountains left that

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Speaker 1: that could be one factor, But because dating is dead.

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Speaker 1: That is what I learned this week. I read all

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Speaker 1: these articles and I know you did too, about how

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Speaker 1: dating is dead, and now I'll never get to go

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Speaker 1: to a soda fountains. O Molly, you you can know

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Speaker 1: what was go to a soda fountain with me might

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Speaker 1: not be the same and I would want my own malt.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, that's we can talk about that after the podcast. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but why is dating dead? Kristen? Why did she send

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Speaker 1: me all these scary stories that dating is dead? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: I was say, you know, dating has changed from back

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Speaker 1: in the day, you know, the back in the days

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Speaker 1: of the soda fountains and the and the movies and

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Speaker 1: the sock cops. But this idea that dating is said

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Speaker 1: is based on this this buzzword buzz phrase, if you will,

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Speaker 1: call the hookup culture. Yes, this idea that instead of dating.

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Speaker 1: People in their twenties and even in their teens and

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Speaker 1: on college campuses are just having rampant sex and not

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Speaker 1: going on dating and working working their way up to sex,

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Speaker 1: which is jumping right in bed and then maybe if

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Speaker 1: things work out, then you might end up dating. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess the way it used to go in olden

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Speaker 1: days is that you meet someone you liked, you accord them,

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Speaker 1: go on a few dates, and then it would turn

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Speaker 1: more serious in terms of physical stuff. And I thought

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Speaker 1: it was interesting, Molly. We found this NPR story on

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Speaker 1: this idea of the hookup culture, and it traced dating

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Speaker 1: the rise of dating back to the nineteen forties and

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Speaker 1: fifties UM, when poor families wouldn't be able to host

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Speaker 1: a courtship arrangement where the man would come over to

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Speaker 1: the girl's house and maybe sit in the parlor the centeria,

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Speaker 1: play the hopsicle hopsicle and uh, and he would actually

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Speaker 1: take her out of the house tip for activities because

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Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't room in the in the poor

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Speaker 1: family's mill house. Yeah, and I think that dating might

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Speaker 1: be on the way out just because we are in

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Speaker 1: a recession. It's kind of expensive to go on a date,

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Speaker 1: dinner in a movie. That's a pricey ticket. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is that is expensive. But let's talk about this idea

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Speaker 1: of the hookup culture because it's been portrayed as very

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Speaker 1: alarmous terms, largely by people from our parents generation. Seems

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Speaker 1: like I remember running across this op ed in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times last year called the Demise of Dating,

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Speaker 1: and it uh started off with this definition of hookup culture.

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Speaker 1: You know, for readers who are over thirty, who were saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I'm talking about hookups and if you

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Speaker 1: don't know what a hookup is, it's basically having any

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Speaker 1: kind of physical intimacy with someone that you might not

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Speaker 1: plan on dating, anything from kissing to the full shebang,

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Speaker 1: any any any of the basis if you will, first base,

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Speaker 1: second base. They're even saying that the basis have changed,

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Speaker 1: So you blow my mind. Yeah, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of changes happening in the day's dating world. But the

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Speaker 1: fact is, is it a change Because then we were

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Speaker 1: reading about the origin of the term hook up and

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Speaker 1: it's been around since the seventies. I mean, I appreciate

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Speaker 1: our parents concerned that we might not be getting our

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Speaker 1: our money's worth in terms of relationships. But the fact

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Speaker 1: of that matters is it seems like this has always

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Speaker 1: been going on and people are just now trying to

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Speaker 1: put this term on it. Right. Um. And then there's

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Speaker 1: a book that came out a couple of years ago

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Speaker 1: by Laura session Step that seemed to really tip off

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Speaker 1: this whole conversation about the hook up culture. And her

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Speaker 1: book was called Unhooked, and it was very anti hookup

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Speaker 1: culture from the perspective that it's harming specifically to young

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Speaker 1: women who are going out and having sex and then

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Speaker 1: they're just becoming emotionally damaged from the whole process. And

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Speaker 1: she even goes on to blame it on the chemical oxytocin,

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Speaker 1: which I think we've talked about another podcast before, which

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Speaker 1: is basically this hormone that's released when women have sex

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Speaker 1: that promotes feelings of connection and attachment. And she's saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're getting these feelings of connection and feel

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Speaker 1: good things from sex, whereas men are getting a shot

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Speaker 1: of testosterone. Um. But so so she's saying that we're

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Speaker 1: just biologically impaired. Right as soon as we have sex

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Speaker 1: with someone, we're gonna want to date them, And the

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Speaker 1: men are going to want to, and thus we are

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Speaker 1: seeing ourselves up for a world of emotional hurt, world

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Speaker 1: of pain. So these critics of this UH movement are

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Speaker 1: almost saying that it's feminism gone too far. Like, yes,

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Speaker 1: women are told by culture and society that they can

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Speaker 1: have sex like a man without any feeling, but that

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Speaker 1: really they can't that, and you know, it might be

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Speaker 1: going too far in terms of we become really accepting

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Speaker 1: UH date rape. We all have to get are wrounk

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Speaker 1: before we can have sex things like that. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there is a way to look at this

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Speaker 1: where this kind of culture could be taken too far.

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Speaker 1: But Molly, there is you know. Of course, another side

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Speaker 1: to this argument that Laura Session Step is trying to

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Speaker 1: spearhead this anti hookup culture thing. We have um third

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Speaker 1: wave feminists like Jessica Valenti who are saying that Laura

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Speaker 1: Session Step argument is basically a form of quote unquote

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Speaker 1: slut shaming, where it turns the women you know, who

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Speaker 1: are going out and having sex with men who they

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Speaker 1: want to have sex with into these dirty women who

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Speaker 1: are just kind of um prostituting themselves out just for

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Speaker 1: a good time and turning themselves into damaged goods. And

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Speaker 1: that's a really dangerous, uh, portrayal of women in an

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Speaker 1: unhealthy perception of sex because the fact of the matter

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Speaker 1: is we're getting married later than ever. We have this

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Speaker 1: gap in our mid twenties. I think the average age

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Speaker 1: for a woman in the US to get married now

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Speaker 1: is something like twenty six. Um, So are we supposed

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Speaker 1: to just sit on our hands and wait? No? But okay,

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Speaker 1: So here's what we did. We want We wanted to

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Speaker 1: see if dating stead We wanted to explore hookup culture.

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Speaker 1: And maybe it doesn't even exist. Maybe it's just a

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Speaker 1: lot of columns, it's a media buzzword. So Kristen, you know,

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Speaker 1: Kristen loves her facts. Kristen just dug into the world

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Speaker 1: of research and scholarly journals and so on and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and couldn't find anything scholarly about hookup culture. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: really wanted to find out, like, have there been any

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Speaker 1: studies to back up this idea that hookups are bad

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Speaker 1: specifically for women, and whether or not hooks hookups are

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Speaker 1: degrading this idea of dating, or even in fact, if

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Speaker 1: this is really happening, right. Yeah, And the one thing

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Speaker 1: I did want to run across one thing. A single study, okay,

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Speaker 1: um about hookups in college among women's feelings towards hookups

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Speaker 1: in college, and it said that women are more likely

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Speaker 1: than men to regret having hookups a lot of times

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Speaker 1: because there is alcohol involved and maybe get your beer

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Speaker 1: goggles on, and then you wake up and you know,

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Speaker 1: Steve is quite as attractive or appealing as you thought

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Speaker 1: he was. His name isn't even Steve, and his name

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Speaker 1: isn't Steve, and you don't know where you are there.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: complicated layers to this. And on the flip side, men

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Speaker 1: are more likely to regret in action like not not

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Speaker 1: taking uh Stacy home is her name? Um? So, A,

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Speaker 1: we can't find evidence that this is happening more than

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Speaker 1: it used to, and B we really can't find out

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Speaker 1: whether or not this is affecting women more than men

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Speaker 1: because all of these studies and all of these assertions

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Speaker 1: that are being made are only about the women, right.

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Speaker 1: It's very anecdotal. Yeah, it's very anecdotal, and I think

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Speaker 1: it takes away the fact that you know, men somewhere

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Speaker 1: might have emotions as well. Shocker. Yeah, all these arguments

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Speaker 1: result um from this idea that women are going to

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Speaker 1: get attached and then being miserable. It never looks at

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Speaker 1: the flip side that a man is going to hook

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Speaker 1: up with a girl and be like, yeah, that's for me.

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Speaker 1: That never happens according to people in these articles, right,

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Speaker 1: It's like you said, it's a lot of it's based

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Speaker 1: on anecdotal evidence, and anecdotally Molly, I would say that

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Speaker 1: the world of dating has changed a lot because not

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Speaker 1: necessarily because of hook up culture, but just because of

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Speaker 1: the way that men and women communicate to date. We

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Speaker 1: have text messages. You don't have to call someone up,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the most nerve racking things in

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Speaker 1: the world in my opinion, to call up the person

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Speaker 1: who you are early into for the first or second time.

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Speaker 1: And we also have things like Facebook where you can

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Speaker 1: get on and you can get this idea of who

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Speaker 1: the person is. You can see all these like random

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Speaker 1: photos of them, see their likes, their dislikes, and kind

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Speaker 1: of figure out who they are before you even have

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Speaker 1: the chance to go on a date with someone. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about it is, if there is let's say

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Speaker 1: that there is this hook up culture um, and it

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Speaker 1: is ruining dating. I would say that stuff like what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about with the texting, with the Facebook, what

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Speaker 1: all of that is eroding is just a man and

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Speaker 1: a woman's ability to have a conversation and define if

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Speaker 1: they are dating. I mean, I think that's the thing is,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you hook up with someone, it's very

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Speaker 1: hard to have that talk about what it actually is.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like that's gonna be tough anytime, right,

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Speaker 1: And I think that framing this whole conversation about the

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Speaker 1: hook up culture solely from the woman's perspective, it's also

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Speaker 1: damaging because I think that it has created this over

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Speaker 1: our arching idea that men want one thing from a woman,

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Speaker 1: and that's to have sex. Like if if you hook

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Speaker 1: up with a guy, you know, he's not going to

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Speaker 1: want to call you the next day, because well, what's

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Speaker 1: the old saying that our mom has probably told us,

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Speaker 1: don't you know, don't give away the samples for free

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Speaker 1: the milk? Yeah, I think you made fun of me

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Speaker 1: for saying that in another podcast, probably, but there is

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Speaker 1: that kind of idea that you know, it's it's that

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Speaker 1: whole slut shaming concept that you know, you go and

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Speaker 1: you you give the guy you know too much and

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Speaker 1: he's not gonna want to come back because he's all

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Speaker 1: he had his fill. And I think that that's a

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Speaker 1: very um damaging idea for girls to grow up with

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Speaker 1: an approach men with, because I think it takes away,

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Speaker 1: you know, the kind of more emotional and personal side

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Speaker 1: of I think that's true. And you know, like you're saying,

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Speaker 1: there's a huge double standard where we expect guys to

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Speaker 1: be these bachelors around town, these kings of the fat houses,

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Speaker 1: whereas a woman is more likely to be demonized and

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Speaker 1: have an awful reputation for this. So I mean the

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Speaker 1: thing the one takeaways you if you don't want to

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Speaker 1: have that reputation, then be discreet. Yeah, do it if

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Speaker 1: you don't want to. And the point you made about

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Speaker 1: reputation is one that um an author called named Kathleen

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Speaker 1: Bogel made. She was she had an interview with Inside

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Speaker 1: higher ed dot com and she was saying that the

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Speaker 1: hook of culture does affect genders differently based on her studies,

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Speaker 1: and one of the main ways that it does is

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Speaker 1: the reputation, the differences in reputation that men and women

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Speaker 1: get from it. Unfortunately, if a woman us out and

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Speaker 1: hooks up with a lot of different people, she's more

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Speaker 1: likely to receive some kind of negative label, whereas a

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Speaker 1: guy is just he's just being a dude, you know's

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Speaker 1: just he's just a pimp. And secondly, she also makes

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Speaker 1: the point that she thinks that women aren't getting what

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Speaker 1: they want from the hook up system, but that might

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Speaker 1: all go into you know, a woman's mindset if she's

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Speaker 1: going out, Like, I don't think that the route to

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Speaker 1: empowerment is necessarily in the bedroom, right, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it can be. But if a woman is going

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Speaker 1: out to get a boost of self confidence by being

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Speaker 1: able to sleep with a man and never call him again,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that that's a very healthy idea either.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think that there's anything wrong with you know,

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Speaker 1: a woman going out and hooking up with someone because

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Speaker 1: you know, she does want maybe she's got a little

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Speaker 1: well some pent up needs and yeah, and it's just

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Speaker 1: scratch right. But I think the other good point that

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Vogel made is that everyone overestimates what their peers

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Speaker 1: are doing. And I think that's very important. Like let's

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Speaker 1: say you look into this podcast, you hear that there's

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Speaker 1: this hook up culture. You're like, holy crap, I'm not

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Speaker 1: hooking up. I gotta go out there and hook up.

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Speaker 1: Bogel says, you know that's what everyone thinks. You just

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Speaker 1: need to slow your role that not everyone is out

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Speaker 1: there hooking up. And I think, you know, I remember

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Speaker 1: being in college and watching sex in the city. And

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Speaker 1: if that's what you think every woman is out there doing,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, like a lonely Friday night is going to

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Speaker 1: sing pretty lame. Yeah, but that's not it's not a reality. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and Paris have been terrified about this idea of the

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Speaker 1: hook up culture because they're thinking that teams are going

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Speaker 1: out and having all the sex. But the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,

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Speaker 1: teams are actually having less sex than they used to.

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Speaker 1: Not to say that they aren't being intimate in other ways,

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Speaker 1: but those stats are actually down. Emily, I also found

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Speaker 1: an ABC pole on the average number of sex partners

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Speaker 1: in the men and women in America have, and the

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Speaker 1: average for both men and women was thirteen. Okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: but then if you break it down by gender, men

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Speaker 1: reporting an average of twenty partners and women are reporting

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Speaker 1: an average of six, and that's a mighty big gap, Molly.

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Speaker 1: So somebody's lying, yeah, there are those guys having all

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Speaker 1: that sex with, Yeah, you are all those girls not

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Speaker 1: having all that sex with. But I think that these

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Speaker 1: stats go to show that idea that you were saying

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Speaker 1: that you know, you don't have to there is no

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Speaker 1: magical number, like you don't have to worry about what

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Speaker 1: other people are doing if you're doing it enough or

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Speaker 1: doing it too much. But in terms of things being different,

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Speaker 1: in terms of these numbers being the result of a

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Speaker 1: hook up culture or not a hook up culture, what

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Speaker 1: do you think, Kristen? Do hook ups exist? Yes? I

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Speaker 1: mean I think though, like you said, Molly, this is

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Speaker 1: something that's been going on for decades now, and we

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Speaker 1: just come up with a clever little phrase for it

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Speaker 1: that strikes fear into the hearts of you know, conservatives

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Speaker 1: and many parents across across a great country. But is

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Speaker 1: it as damaging and particularly harmful for women as everyone's

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Speaker 1: saying it is. I don't think so. But I think

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Speaker 1: that I think it's these conversations that are, you know,

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Speaker 1: positioning women as the victims in the so called hook

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Speaker 1: up culture that's the most damaging aspect of this, I

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Speaker 1: think that going back to this idea of communication that

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Speaker 1: you brought up, like the men and women are having

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Speaker 1: a harder time communicating. I think that's the thing that

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Speaker 1: we need to think about more than how much sex

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Speaker 1: we're having, Like whether or not after sex, if you

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Speaker 1: do like someone, if you can't ask them out to

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Speaker 1: dinner afterwards and have an honest conversation about you know,

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Speaker 1: who you are as people, and whether or not you

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Speaker 1: like each other, and whether or not you want to

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Speaker 1: continue seeing each other rather than um having this what

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Speaker 1: I think a very antiquated idea of oh, women should

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Speaker 1: just have sex like a man. What does that even

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Speaker 1: mean anyway? Yeah, I think it's time to change the conversation.

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Speaker 1: I like it. I think that's the perfect note to

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Speaker 1: end on. Kristen. Yes, let's change the conversation, and Molly,

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Speaker 1: let's also let's also ask our listeners to uh the

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Speaker 1: same question. Do you guys think that there is a

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Speaker 1: hook up culture out there? Do you think that it

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Speaker 1: is damaging two women? Do you think that this is

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Speaker 1: a silly notion that people have just cooked up? Have

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Speaker 1: never been to a soda fountain? Have you ever been

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Speaker 1: to a soda fountain. Would you like to take Molly

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Speaker 1: to a soda fountain sometime? Um? Let us know your thoughts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And speaking of people who let us know their thoughts, um,

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Speaker 1: let's do a little listener mail. So, Kristen, this is

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Speaker 1: in response to the podcast is Menstruation the Last Taboo?

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Speaker 1: And we got tons of emails. We'll we'll never get

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Speaker 1: to all of them, but there was one recurring theme

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Speaker 1: above all on all the emails that we got. Are

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Speaker 1: you talking about menstrual cups? Molly, You ladies out there

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Speaker 1: love your menstrul cups? And I vow to you ladies

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Speaker 1: who love your menstrual cups that we will definitely revisit

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Speaker 1: the topic of menstrul cups? How many times we say

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Speaker 1: menstruall cups and this listener mail, so I'm gonna try

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Speaker 1: and say the menstrual cups as many times as I

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Speaker 1: got an email praising the menstrual cup because a lot

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Speaker 1: women seem to love their menstrual cups and they want

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Speaker 1: the whole world to know. So that's why I'm saying

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Speaker 1: menstrual cups. And we do want to give a shout

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Speaker 1: out to the girls that glad rags who emailed us

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Speaker 1: about menstrual cups. Yeah, in addition to a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of other alternative menstrual products. I'm going to read part

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Speaker 1: of their email about things that they're interested in. The

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Speaker 1: reason they rose because they were disappointed that we weren't

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Speaker 1: mentioning menstrual cups. In fact, alternative menstrual products in the

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Speaker 1: discussion becoming more comfortable with menstrual cycles ALTERNTI menstral products

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Speaker 1: include things like menstrul cups, which include Diva Cup, Keeper Cup,

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Speaker 1: Moon Cup, et cetera. Everyone has their different brand, favorite brand,

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Speaker 1: I've noticed. That's me talking about glad rex Um cloth

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Speaker 1: pads and c sponge tampons. We work at glad Rags,

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Speaker 1: a company which sells these type of products. So promoting

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Speaker 1: positive attitude starts. Menstruation is a subject near and dear

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Speaker 1: to our hearts. Not many people know that there are

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Speaker 1: alternatives disposable products, but we believe that everyone should have

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Speaker 1: all the information available so that she can make the

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Speaker 1: best choice for her body. The health benefits notwithstanding, such

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Speaker 1: as re usables don't contain bleach or other harmful chemicals

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Speaker 1: and have never been linked to toxic shock syndrome. We

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Speaker 1: find that most of them gain a greater understanding of

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Speaker 1: their bodies in a sense of comfort with their menstrual cycle.

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Speaker 1: In addition, the average woman uses sixteen eight hundred paths

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Speaker 1: or tampons in her lifetime. Imagine the environmental impact of

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Speaker 1: all that waste. And then they go on for request

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Speaker 1: about the menstrual cup and cloth pads. And as I

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Speaker 1: have vowed we shall revisit the topic, we shall return

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Speaker 1: all right, So in the meantime, until we revisit the

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Speaker 1: topic of menstrual cups, you guys can keep up with

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Speaker 1: me and Molly on our blog called how to Stuff.

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Speaker 1: And if you are interested in more articles about human

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Speaker 1: sexuality and other things related to hook ups and dating,

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Speaker 1: you can head over to how stuff works dot com

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Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Because

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Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com. Want more how stuff works,

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Speaker 1: check out our blogs on the house stuff works dot

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Speaker 1: com home page. Yeah, brought to you by the reinvented

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve camera. It's ready, are you