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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're

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Speaker 2: a weekly reminder that as bad thing happened, a good

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Speaker 2: thing try to happen. Sometimes does happen. Sometimes good thing happen,

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Speaker 2: and that's what make bad thing.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this is a podcast

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Speaker 2: that I run twice a week, and I have a guest,

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Speaker 2: and my guest is Katabugazala. How are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great, Margaret, How are you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing okay. I'm clearly a little bit frazzled.

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Speaker 2: I'm suddenly by the speed at which I'm talking thinking

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Speaker 2: I might have eaten more sugar than I thought today.

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Speaker 1: I love that for you. That's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Kat is a journalist, a commentator, and now a

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six candidate for US House of Representatives the

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Speaker 2: ninth district of Illinois.

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Speaker 1: That is accurate. That is what I'm running for. And

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Speaker 1: we're almost at two months of the campaign now.

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Speaker 2: And basically, like y'all are just trying to primary a

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Speaker 2: Democrat is not doing their job, Like I don't know

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Speaker 2: enough about the stuff I'm not trying to Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I mean the words in your mouth about it.

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Speaker 1: So the incumbent actually announced that she won't be seeking reelection.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, her name is jan Schakowski and she has

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Speaker 1: been a progressive member of Congress. Oh, my grandmother, who

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Speaker 1: was like a GOP operative hated her, which is like

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Speaker 1: an endorsement of Schaikowski's character. She is not seeking a

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Speaker 1: fifteenth term, and I announced before she announced, not like

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Speaker 1: as a vendetta against her. But I think that there's

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Speaker 1: a problem in the party of not having competitive primaries.

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Speaker 1: And there hasn't been a competitive primary in this district

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Speaker 1: since nineteen ninety eight, five months before I was born.

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Speaker 1: And so we're trying to do like a different style

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Speaker 1: of campaigning, spending our money on good stuff like that

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Speaker 1: helps people instead of consultants and a bunch of ads

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Speaker 1: that might not be effectively strategized. I know, super radical.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like the best advertising for you is

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Speaker 2: how much everyone's trying to attack you right now. That's

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Speaker 2: how I keep being aware of your Yeah.

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Speaker 1: People have been losing their minds in the funniest way.

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Speaker 1: I've been called Maga hamas Republican. Someone alleged that's as

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Speaker 1: the La Terror cell. I've been called a carpetbagger because

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Speaker 1: I'm a transplant and like that's also fine. We're just

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Speaker 1: trying to prove through art, like you don't have to

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Speaker 1: legally vote for me, Like there's not a law that

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Speaker 1: you have to vote for.

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Speaker 2: Me until you get into the office. And then I

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Speaker 2: see that that's one of your campaign promises is to

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Speaker 2: suspend democracy.

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Speaker 1: And then we're all in on autocracy. Obviously. The fact

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Speaker 1: that I am dating Ben Collins of Onion fame is

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Speaker 1: a massive journalistic malpractice as well, because the Onion is

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Speaker 1: America's finest news source. And then someone did attack my

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Speaker 1: cat and that's like the one here. They went after you.

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Speaker 1: They were like in fuck your cat, and I was like, bro,

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Speaker 1: you you're winning the argument. Obviously. When you're like fuck

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Speaker 1: your cat, you're winning this argument.

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Speaker 3: Okay, as somebody who knows you and Ben, and how

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Speaker 3: dare they come after your heat?

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Speaker 1: Okay? And like she was fine, but like we were like, what,

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Speaker 1: it's fucked up.

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Speaker 3: I'm angry.

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Speaker 2: I think that all the people, especially when they're at

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Speaker 2: the point where they're attacking your cat, that's probably just

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Speaker 2: good press for you.

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Speaker 3: Point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, someone today was like, because I said that I

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Speaker 1: worked from home when I was, you know, like creating content,

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Speaker 1: doing journalism, and they were like, so your office is

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Speaker 1: just a front, like to show that you're in the district.

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Speaker 1: And I posted a picture of me drafting my response

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Speaker 1: in the office, and I was like, you can come

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Speaker 1: by the office right now. Like I'm I am recording

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Speaker 1: this from the campaign office, as y'all can see my

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Speaker 1: field organizer. I'm an astroturft candidate. We all know this.

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Speaker 1: Astroturft candidates have twelve thousand individual donors. We all know this.

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Speaker 3: I just they came after Heater the babe of a cat.

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Speaker 3: She's such a babe. What are you doing Mittens?

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Speaker 1: She's just a girly pop Come on this big she's

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Speaker 1: so tiny.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's where we're at.

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Speaker 3: That's wild.

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Speaker 2: Well we're gonna talk about Wait, first, we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about the rest of the people we're here, including

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Speaker 2: the other voice you're hearing, which is Sophie Hy Sophie.

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Speaker 3: Hey, I'm still really mad about Here.

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Speaker 1: Is Anderson back there.

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Speaker 3: Anderson is right next to me and her sister Truman

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Speaker 3: has taking a nap at her great.

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Speaker 2: And Renshaw is asleep at my feet. Incredibly is surprising

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Speaker 2: and lucky because he has been running around like wild

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Speaker 2: all day.

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Speaker 1: Wait is that a dog?

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Speaker 2: Yeahh Wrenshaw's my dog.

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Speaker 3: In early days of Anderson, back when she was like

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Speaker 3: borderline mouldoerish because she was like still a rescue and

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Speaker 3: was like a tiny little thing, I had this very

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Speaker 3: evil roommate who like in the middle of me being like, no, really,

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Speaker 3: you have to pay your rent on time. There's three

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Speaker 3: other people who live here.

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Speaker 1: She was like, your.

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Speaker 3: Dog's fat, and I was like, I'm gonna beat your

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Speaker 3: fucking ass. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's the only response you can really have.

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Speaker 1: Like she can't advocate for herself. I mean she can

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Speaker 1: obviously because she's smart and speaks human language. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like, actually Anderson steps in for Sophia sometimes when Sophie isn't.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Their voices are identical.

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Speaker 3: I'd let Anderson drive my car, okay, like she could

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Speaker 3: handle it, Like I would let her handle all of

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Speaker 3: my finances, drive my car, and like perform surgery.

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Speaker 1: I trust her.

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Speaker 3: I know she has no thumbs, but I would trust her.

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Speaker 1: So I wish I didn't have thumbs. That would make

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Speaker 1: life it's simpler, you know.

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Speaker 3: Some nice person would take care of you the way

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Speaker 3: I take care of of my dogs.

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Speaker 1: It's just Ben.

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Speaker 3: It just just Ben's like, oh, good.

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Speaker 1: Girl, good girl, Carol.

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Speaker 2: Well who takes care of us. Also, Eva is our

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Speaker 2: audio editor, and everyone has to say hi, hi.

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Speaker 1: Eva, Hiva hi Eva, you for editing this audio. Audio

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Speaker 1: editing is source in my opinion, So you're a hero.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 2: It's the most thankless job. It's actually the with other

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Speaker 2: podcasts that I work on. It's absolutely the choke point

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Speaker 2: where we're like, oh, we'd like to release more and more,

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Speaker 2: Like no one wants to edit this.

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Speaker 1: No one wants to edit this, like the benefit of video,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if you're a DIY podcast, pay your audio

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Speaker 2: editors before you pay anyone else, because it is the

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Speaker 2: job that doesn't build you a platform. It doesn't like anyway.

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Speaker 2: Eva's are audio editor andret and our theme music was

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Speaker 2: written for us by unwomen and so recently, uncol people

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Speaker 2: did cool stuff I've been thinking about for some weird reason.

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Speaker 2: Even as someone who's not particularly in love with the

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Speaker 2: concept of the state as a method of human organization

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Speaker 2: and society, I've certainly become very aware of a lot

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Speaker 2: of really good things that are currently being done for

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Speaker 2: us through governmental systems as we watch them get stripped

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Speaker 2: away one by one in our society. We talked about

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Speaker 2: vaccines last week, and this week we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about the writ of Habeas corpus and what's the cool

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Speaker 2: people connection with it. Every single right we have comes

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Speaker 2: from somewhere, and usually they come from people who are

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Speaker 2: cool or sometimes complicated, people who are probably not cool

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Speaker 2: as individuals, but who accomplish something cool, which is honestly

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Speaker 2: a little bit more realistic because most of us aren't perfect.

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Speaker 2: So I am yeah, I know, that's why. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but most people podcasters are oddly perfect. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: strange you'd think that they're not because of the destructive

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Speaker 2: effect we've had on society.

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Speaker 1: Women podcasters are Oh that's true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I actually don't have a counterpoint to I'm like, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: You had to go through it and you have to

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Speaker 1: be like, well, you're right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel really bad when Nope, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to talk shit on podcasts in general as the field

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Speaker 2: I work in. Anyway, everyone is equally entitled to start

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Speaker 2: a podcast, regardless of their gender identity.

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Speaker 1: Look I'm not saying you can't start a podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying women podcasters are perfect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and it's hard to compete, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the story of Habeas Corpus, and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: explain what it is in a second before we actually

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Speaker 2: explain what it is, Habeas Corpus is basically like due process.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's a more specific thing, right, but the

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Speaker 2: idea that like, they can't just throw you in a

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Speaker 2: jail because they feel like it, which is a pretty

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Speaker 2: fundamental idea.

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Speaker 1: I'm a fan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some of its concepts, although not its name, can

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Speaker 2: be traced back to pre Roman Britain and the folk

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Speaker 2: legal system of different clan groups there. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we're gonna do this week because I think it's a

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Speaker 2: good story and I think it helps us understand what's

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Speaker 2: at stake, because as probably most people who are listening

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Speaker 2: to this are aware, or you're listening in the future

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Speaker 2: and you're like, ah, I remember when people at Habeas Corpus.

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Speaker 1: That was cute.

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Speaker 2: The Trump administration is openly talking about considering suspending Habeas Corpus.

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Speaker 2: You ever heard of this, I know you? Have you

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Speaker 2: ever heard of this? Guy? Named Stephen Miller.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard of him.

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Speaker 2: I believe he can legally be described as a right

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Speaker 2: wing goon. I think that that's a.

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Speaker 1: I would say, like a hard boiled egg that is

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Speaker 1: filled with hate instead of an embryo of a chicken.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's fair. Okay, I can picture this man because

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Speaker 2: he's the hard boiled egg wear in a suit. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I can't always keep all their origin stories apart. Do

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Speaker 2: you remember more about this particular man.

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Speaker 1: So, Steven Miller is basically like a Trump goon. He

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Speaker 1: helped ray like a bunch of Trump's speeches, and every

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Speaker 1: single thing he says is wrong and evil. I've seen

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Speaker 1: him way more than most people, or that like any

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Speaker 1: human being should. While I was wondering Fox News and

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Speaker 1: he comes on essentially says the most racist shit you've

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Speaker 1: ever heard from someone's mouth and thinks that it's okay.

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Speaker 1: He also has a really annoying voice, especially from a

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Speaker 1: party that loves to complain about like vocal fry and

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Speaker 1: like especially like women's voices. He sounds like a valley girl.

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Speaker 1: It's like listening to any clip of him, and I've

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Speaker 1: never heard more of a valley girl voice.

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Speaker 2: I've never won to listen to him before, but now

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, maybe I will.

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Speaker 1: Next time. You see a clip, just like listen to

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Speaker 1: it and you're like, oh my god. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: like an early two thousand sexist comedy idea of a bimbo,

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Speaker 1: except instead of a hot girl, it's Stephen Miller.

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Speaker 2: He's just jealous that he can't twirl his hair around

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Speaker 2: his finger.

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Speaker 1: Exactly because once again, hardboiled egg. Yeah, so he was

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Speaker 1: like a Trump goon and basically helped provide the architecture,

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Speaker 1: like the foundation for some of Trump's most racist policies,

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Speaker 1: and that's what he continues to do to this day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that tracks because on May ninth, twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: he threatened to suspend habeas corpus, which is basically him

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Speaker 2: saying he wants to suspend the rule of law. It

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Speaker 2: is the declare marshal law thing. Practically, he said, quote

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Speaker 2: that's an option we're actively looking at. Theoretically, in the

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Speaker 2: United States, the right to the writ of habeas corpus

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Speaker 2: can only be susp bended when, in to quote Article

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Speaker 2: one of the Constitution, cases of rebellion or invasion, the

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Speaker 2: public safety may require it I think that there is

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Speaker 2: a word for a right that can be taken away

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Speaker 2: by the government whenever they want, and that word is

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Speaker 2: not right. That word is privilege. Because the Constitution says

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Speaker 2: that you can take away people's right to habeas corpus.

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Speaker 2: It's supposed to be only used in extreme emergencies. But

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Speaker 2: here we go. The Trump administration consistently presents the existence

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Speaker 2: of migrants and people seeking asylum as an invasion. Trump

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Speaker 2: wants wartime powers, so he needs a war, so he's

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Speaker 2: calling the border a war. Federal judges keep saying, look,

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Speaker 2: immigration is not invasion. What the fuck is wrong with you?

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Speaker 2: Even I think the ones who don't like it, the

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Speaker 2: shitty ones, there's still like, that's just not actually what

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Speaker 2: invasion is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, an invasion you would have like an authority saying

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Speaker 1: let's invade this, and not people trying to find a

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Speaker 1: better life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what is habeas corpus? Well, it is these

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Speaker 2: goods and services. That's what they're trying to take away

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Speaker 2: from you. They're trying to take away from you your

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Speaker 2: liberty to listen to ads.

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Speaker 1: They don't want you to listen to ads and support

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Speaker 1: the rule of law.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Here's some ads. You can listen to

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Speaker 2: them if you want, or you can skip them. I

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Speaker 2: don't care and er back. Habeas corpus. Habeas corpus is

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Speaker 2: medieval Latin, is not ancient Latin or whatever. It's medieval Latin,

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Speaker 2: and it's Latin for you must have the body for

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Speaker 2: a really, really long time. I assume this meant you, like,

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Speaker 2: can't get charged with murder if there's no dead body.

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Speaker 2: That was just like what I thought it meant. I

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Speaker 2: thought it was like, oh, you need like you need

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Speaker 2: the evidence, right, Yeah, it actually means body like person.

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Speaker 2: I spent a long time. I read like eight articles

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Speaker 2: about this, because lots of different people will like to

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Speaker 2: argue about what the Latin means, and most articles about

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Speaker 2: habeas corpus kind of gloss over this part. I think

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Speaker 2: because people understand it, including the people writing those articles.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's like how my middle school teacher described it,

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Speaker 1: of like you have to have like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, and maybe a legal scholar will tell

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Speaker 2: me that I'm wrong, But I spend a really long

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Speaker 2: time researching this this week. I think this means body

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Speaker 2: like person, like you should have the person who is

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Speaker 2: in trouble should be brought to the court for assessment.

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Speaker 2: It means bring us this guy. It means like, well,

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Speaker 2: let's bring them here and we'll figure it out. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Is habeas corpus? To quote the National Constitution Center, the

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Speaker 2: writ of habeas corpus is quote a means by which

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Speaker 2: a prisoner can test the legality of her detention. A

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Speaker 2: person who believes she is being imprisoned illegally can file

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Speaker 2: a petition asking a judge to issue a writ of

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Speaker 2: habeas corpus. When a prisoner files a petition for a

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Speaker 2: writ of habeas corpus, her custodian must explain why the

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Speaker 2: restraint is lawful. If the explanation does not satisfy the court,

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Speaker 2: they will order the custodian to release her. Basically, this

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Speaker 2: is the foundation of the idea that everyone is owed

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Speaker 2: their day in court. It is the basis of you

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Speaker 2: can't actually just hold people in jail indefinitely without accusing

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Speaker 2: them of a crime or setting up a trial. It

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Speaker 2: applies to US citizens and non citizens alike, and in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight it was expanded to include non

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Speaker 2: citizens outside the US who were held in US military detention.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of arguing about Guantanamo Bay and

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Speaker 2: its legality, and specifically, in two thousand and eight they

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Speaker 2: expanded it to include people detained at Guantanamo Bay, but

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and six Congress said that it doesn't

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Speaker 2: apply to enemy combatants. So I'm sure that if Habeas

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Speaker 2: corpus continues, that's what they'll move to next, is they

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Speaker 2: will decide that everyone is an enemy combatant. The future

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Speaker 2: is bright. I'm wearing shades. It wouldn't be a supposedly

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Speaker 2: fundamental right in democracy if it weren't being suspended. Wait,

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Speaker 2: I actually can't tell. Oh, you actually put on real shades.

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Speaker 2: They look so much like the shades that Zoom can

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Speaker 2: put on automatically.

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Speaker 1: Like a little filter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyone who's curious if dad has the cool shades?

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Speaker 2: The answer is yes, so fucking cool. So it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be a supposedly fundamental right in democracy if it hadn't

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Speaker 2: been suspended. Again and again, it's not without precedent for

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Speaker 2: the suspension of Habeas corpus. The way that they're talking

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Speaker 2: about doing it is without precedent. The first time we

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Speaker 2: suspended this writ was before we were even a country,

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Speaker 2: during the Revolutionary War. A bunch of governors became autocrats

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Speaker 2: by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, which also goes

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Speaker 2: to show that this is an older concept than the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: When Habeas corpus is suspended, the executive branch can just

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Speaker 2: detain people however it wants, whenever it wants, with no oversight.

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Speaker 2: The suspension clause is in the Constitution and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: say who gets to do that suspending, And that's what

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Speaker 2: a lot of the arguing is about. Right now, it

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Speaker 2: has been universally understood that Congress is the one that

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Speaker 2: gets to suspend Habeas corpus because one, it's in a

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Speaker 2: section where almost everything is talking about Congress, though not

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Speaker 2: everything in that section is talking about Congress. And two,

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Speaker 2: it confers ultimate power to the executive branch, so like,

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Speaker 2: probably the executive branch shouldn't be the one that decides

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Speaker 2: to get to do it. It seems to me Habeas Corpus,

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Speaker 2: also called the Great Writ, is actually only mentioned in

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Speaker 2: the Constitution in the suspension clause. It's not written into

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Speaker 2: the Constitution that this exists. Because this is considered such

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Speaker 2: a fundamental right that it didn't even get spelled out.

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Speaker 2: Everyone just kind of knows about it at the time

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Speaker 2: that they're writing the Constitution. The entire clause, the entire

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Speaker 2: discussion of habeas corpus in the Constitution is quote, the

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Speaker 2: privilege of the rid of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless,

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Speaker 2: when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety

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Speaker 2: may require it. We've suspended it four times in the past.

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Speaker 2: The first time we did it, it was actually first

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Speaker 2: enacted by the president. That's the thing that gets like

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Speaker 2: messy about all this, right, Like, I think I'm curious

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Speaker 2: your take on this, but I think we're focusing on

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Speaker 2: the wrong part of this. Everyone's like the president shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be able to suspend this. I think everyone should get

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Speaker 2: mad whenever this is suspended by anyone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it should be like, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is the exact amount of time, and also like this

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Speaker 1: is how we would justify it. I don't think it

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Speaker 1: should be suspended at all. Right, but like if there's

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Speaker 1: an alien invasion, I guess, like from outer space. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to think of like an Independence Day style scenario here, right,

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Speaker 1: I still think the rule of law would be important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you might get like slowed down, you know, like

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Speaker 2: I was gonna take you as longer to find a

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Speaker 2: judge because half of them got killed by the aliens

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Speaker 2: form outer space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but like if there was like it should be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the exact amount of time and why we're

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Speaker 1: doing it, and like the carveouts, like if there is

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Speaker 1: a sci fi reason to do this. I'm really trying

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Speaker 1: to like not even play Devil's Advocate here, just trying

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Speaker 1: to think of a possible Independence Day was aggressive.

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Speaker 2: I mean the first time they suspended it was the

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Speaker 2: Civil War, right, Yeah, And actually the first people suspended

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Speaker 2: were the Confederacy, So actually the Confederate States of America

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Speaker 2: suspended it before the United States of America did. But

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Speaker 2: like you can sort of see in a civil war.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also still sort of like, well then you

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Speaker 2: also have like rules around prisoners of war and it's

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Speaker 2: just a different thing, right, And so like actually I

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Speaker 2: think civilians should still have to I just think you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be able to throw people in cages unless you

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Speaker 2: can say why you're throwing them in a cage in

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Speaker 2: a way that satisfies the judge. Yeah, but the previous

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Speaker 2: suspensions have also been like I really, well, they actually

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Speaker 2: haven't all been great, but they included carbouts. They were like,

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Speaker 2: this is what it's going to come kick back in

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Speaker 2: and shit like that.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to talk shit on Abraham Lincoln. This is

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite activities. You're lucky that you didn't

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Speaker 2: get me talking shit on the Revolutionary War, but you're

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Speaker 2: going to get me talk to shit on Abraham Lincoln.

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Speaker 2: The first time we did it, it was enacted by

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Speaker 2: the President Abraham Lincoln, aka the man who gets credit

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Speaker 2: for ending legal chattel slavery in the US, despite I

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Speaker 2: don't think he deserves all that much of that credit

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Speaker 2: and unjustly avoids getting the blame for overseeing the largest

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Speaker 2: mass execution in US history when on December twenty sixth,

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Speaker 2: eighteen sixty two, the US hanged thirty eight Dakota people

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Speaker 2: who had surrendered in their war against the United States.

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Speaker 2: And I want to talk about that. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: side quest on that because I think it's important to

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Speaker 2: understand when we decide and who we decide. The rule

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Speaker 2: of law applies to the Dakota were an independent nation

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Speaker 2: at war with the United States and then they surrendered.

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Speaker 2: We have rules about that. You're not allowed to execute

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Speaker 2: all the enemy soldiers, right. The United States disagrees. When

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Speaker 2: the Dakota surrendered, there were huge trials of enemy combatants.

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Speaker 2: About three hundred of them were sentenced to death. Abraham

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Speaker 2: Lincoln was like, well, I want to show that we're

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Speaker 2: tough but fair. I don't know that's his quote, but

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Speaker 2: that's his vibe of what he was trying to do.

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Speaker 2: So we went ahead and proved the exact opposite. He

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Speaker 2: was not fair. First, he was like, well, I'm only

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Speaker 2: going to pick the people who are convicted of sexual

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Speaker 2: assault as part of the raids. That's how I'm going

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Speaker 2: to pick the people I want to kill. But only

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Speaker 2: two of the three hundred plus people have been convicted

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Speaker 2: of that. So he was like, I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: was just hanging these thirty eight people, and all of

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Speaker 2: the articles about this are like he personally poured over

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Speaker 2: the manuscripts to decide who would die. He couldn't have

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Speaker 2: been reading too closely, because at least two of the

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Speaker 2: people who had been acquitted were hanged. One was a

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Speaker 2: white kid who'd been adopted by the Dakota when he

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Speaker 2: was little, who joined in their war against the United States,

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Speaker 2: which is a cool thing to do from my point

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Speaker 2: of view. His name was Wassakun, and I couldn't find

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Speaker 2: a pronunciation for that name. He was picked by Lincoln

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Speaker 2: to die despite having been acquitted, as far as I

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Speaker 2: can tells just literally an oversight. He claims that he

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Speaker 2: was like, I'm picking all these names carefully, and then

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Speaker 2: he was just like ah. And then this person, another

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Speaker 2: Dakota guy who was named Wi chank washto dom Pi,

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Speaker 2: had a super common nickname. So when they called his

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Speaker 2: nickname out, he stepped forward, and instead of someone else

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Speaker 2: with that nickname, he was executed. And the reason I

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Speaker 2: want to linger on this well one is because it

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Speaker 2: makes me really angry. When you win at war against

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Speaker 2: another country, you don't execute their soldiers. And a professor

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Speaker 2: at the University of Minnesota Law School, Carol Chomsky, who

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Speaker 2: was husband gnomes the more famous of the two. She

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Speaker 2: wrote quote, the trials of the Dakota were conducted unfairly

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Speaker 2: in a variety of ways. The evidence was sparse, the

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Speaker 2: tribunal was biased, the defendants were unrepresented in unfamiliar proceedings

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Speaker 2: conducted in a foreign language, and authority for convening the

437
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 2: tribunal was lacking. More fundamentally, neither the military commission nor

438
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: the reviewing authorities recognized that they were dealing with the

439
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 2: aftermath of a war fought with a sovereign nation, and

440
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 2: the men who surrendered were entitled to treatment in accordance

441
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: with that status. In order to mass execute these people,

442
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: the town had to declare martial law and forbid the

443
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: sale of alcohol because four thousand races showed up to

444
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: celebrate the hanging. So following the rule of law has

445
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 2: never been the US's strong suit, even with one of

446
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: the most venerated presidents we've had, But people have tried

447
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: to make it follow the law right like even in

448
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: this case there was a try. There shouldn't have been

449
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: a trial from my point of view because the prisoner

450
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: of war thing. But I don't know you whatever, and

451
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 2: so getting rid of habeas corpus is like just getting

452
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 2: rid of fucking even the pretense. Abraham Lincoln suspended the

453
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 2: rid of habeas corpus during the Civil War. This pissed

454
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: everyone off because everyone assumed it took an Act of

455
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 2: Congress to do that. He did it while there was

456
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,959
Speaker 2: a specific case happening and Congress wasn't in session as

457
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: soon as Congress was in session. They were like yayay, yeah,

458
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 2: it's fine. They like passed the thing that was like,

459
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: it's fine that Lincoln did that.

460
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: What was the court case?

461
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of it. I stopped side

462
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 2: questing as far I cut back at a certain point.

463
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: It was a saboteur from the Confederacy, I think who

464
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 2: was arrested in the North. And I don't know why

465
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 2: that trial wasn't a military trial. I don't know why

466
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: that was a civil trial. It might have been because

467
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: he was a citizen of the Northern States, Okay, yeah,

468
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 2: And so I don't know the details of why not

469
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: enemy combatant in that context thought it. The next time

470
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: I was suspended was during reconstruction. This is probably the

471
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: one that I have the most sympathy for. It was

472
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: suspended during reconstruction in either nine or eleven counties in

473
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 2: South Carolina, depending on your source, in order to fight

474
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: the KKK, although I would still argue that fucking clansmen

475
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: deserve it to be told that there are clansmen, you know,

476
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: like you need to be able to accuse them of

477
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 2: a crime. And then it was suspended in the Philippines

478
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: in nineteen oh five when they tried not to be

479
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: a colonial territory anymore, and then in Hawaii after Pearl

480
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: Harbor in nineteen forty one, this led to martial law

481
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: in Hawaii. This is unrelated to the Japanese internment of

482
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty thousand Japanese Americans who were kept

483
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: in concentration camps during World War Two, which was done

484
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: by executive order. The argument I would make is that

485
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: rights aren't granted to us by the state. There are

486
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: concessions that people win from the state that we defend

487
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 2: through legislation, through organizing, and through direct action. That's habeas corpus,

488
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: the right to demand a legal justification for why you're

489
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: being captain in a cage.

490
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: I'd also just like distress for people on this, like

491
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: habeas corpus. It's not just like, oh, you know, you're

492
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: accused of being a terrorist, and so we're putting you

493
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: in this cell even if like you're not. And it

494
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like political motivated reasoning. You could

495
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: get a parking ticket and they could just throw you

496
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: in jail for the rest of your life. You could

497
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: jaywalk and be executed by the state and there would

498
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: be no problem with that. It's not just if you're

499
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: thinking habeas corpus is suspended, that's bad. But like I'm

500
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: safe because I'm not you know, a political figure, or

501
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: I haven't committed a crime does not matter. You could

502
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: literally just be hanging out listening to music in your

503
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: home and the state would be justified to throw you

504
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: in prison for the rest of your life because they

505
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: don't like you or the color of your house is

506
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: the wrong shade.

507
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they don't have to prove, you know, if

508
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, well MS thirteen doesn't deserve due process

509
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, well you're MS thirteen, you're like, well,

510
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: no I'm not. You're like, well, I'm not going to

511
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: give you a chance to prove.

512
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: It, right, Like if you're wearing a Chicago Bulls hat,

513
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: that now means you're MS thirteen. So and Chicago Bulls

514
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: gear can just be sent to a concentration camp overseas. Yeah,

515
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: that's where we're at. Yeah.

516
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 2: And the idea of like, oh, you have tattoos, so

517
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: you're in a gang, And it's like have you met

518
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 2: anyone under the age of like fifty five? Like do

519
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: you have any friends who are under the age of

520
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: fifty five, they have tattoos. Like that's done. That's over that.

521
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: Like we all have nose rings and we all have tattoos.

522
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all have IUDs yeah, and we all yeah,

523
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: we take birth control. We take birth control very scary,

524
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: and we have internet access like sorry.

525
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so hey, yas corpus as a specific named thing.

526
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: And also just the concept of it comes into the

527
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: US from English common law, like so much of the

528
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: American legal system, and I just took that as like

529
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 2: common law. I don't know what that means. It means folks,

530
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: see right, which isn't actually entirely off. Common law is

531
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: the law that's not so much built up out of

532
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: legislation but is built upon precedent. It's the what we do.

533
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: And actually that is an important part of the American

534
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: legal system as well. Precedent is at least as important

535
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: as you know, legislation in terms of how laws are

536
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: happening and the history of English common law. I usually

537
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 2: I try to avoid English history, like whenever I can

538
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: on this show because I'm tired of it and they

539
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: get too much airway me.

540
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: Watching Jeopardy, Like whenever there's a category that's like different

541
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: English kings and queens.

542
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I don't know. I can't bring myself to

543
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: care about who beget whom on an island that was

544
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: a backwater until it suddenly ruled the entire world.

545
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: Everyone has the same name.

546
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's like keeping track of pope's names. You're like,

547
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: but you all use the same one. That's not fair.

548
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: I want someone to pick like a pope name like

549
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: trans woman, pick their name or against then like or

550
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: like literally a transition like Pope Lavender, or like if

551
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: you're an envy, it's like pope cyberpunk. Like, let's do it,

552
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: let's try it.

553
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: I will say the name Pope Innocent is a pretty like.

554
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: I just finished watching Covenant, and I'm.

555
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: Like, Conclave, Conclave, different movie, different movie, thank.

556
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: You, thank you.

557
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: Wait up, what's Covenant? It's it a war movie.

558
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: It's a horror movie. It's like an I think there's

559
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: like a non horror movie.

560
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, what would everyone's pope name be?

561
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 2: Now? Crap? Uh, well, I already picked Margaret.

562
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: I don't know.

563
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: Magdalen. I don't know what about you all.

564
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll Gooe Magdalen or just like cut to the

565
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: chase and pope prostitute, you.

566
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, yeah, go all in.

567
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: No, there are so many cool pope names though, it's

568
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: hard to keep track of.

569
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, Francis was actually a really good one because

570
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: he's the patron sat of animals.

571
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: I know. Actually Francis is like if I was a boy,

572
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: I'd probably pick Francis. I kind of like him.

573
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've heard that like one of the reasons

574
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: he chose Pope Leo was because of like the last

575
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: Pope Leo's like focus on the industrial Revolution and then

576
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: like AI and tech, which is like it's really cool

577
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: when people like the names are picked for specific reasons,

578
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: and it's always interesting to see why I have them.

579
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, honestly, I mean, who knows what will

580
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: happen by the time anyone's listening to this in the future.

581
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: I was really grateful that that they picked someone who's

582
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: like on the right side about Palestine more than anything else,

583
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: like geopolitical shit, Like we're not going to get a

584
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: Catholic pope who thinks that trans women are women.

585
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: But like they could have picked a like absolute like

586
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,239
Speaker 3: evil monster who hates every There were options like that.

587
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the like.

588
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: Like people talk about the popes, and I'm like, guys,

589
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: it's the fucking pope, like this man's legs that migrants

590
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: are people?

591
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like happy for that.

592
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 3: It was like the fucking NFL NBA draft. That's how

593
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: it was being reported on. And like there was like

594
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: certain people where they would like have like their name

595
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: and like what they support, and there was like one

596
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: motherfucker where it was like this dude supports fucking nobody.

597
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: What do you mean.

598
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: It's like I did.

599
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Love the Conclave fancams. That was so funny, so funny.

600
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: What were the fancams?

601
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: Just people like people putting together like fancams of different

602
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: possible nominees for the pope. Oh shit, Yeah, it was incredible.

603
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 2: I didn't follow this as closely as you all. I

604
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: had friends who were following it closely who would message

605
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: me about it. Someone messaged me on the day that

606
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: it was Annown, message me Conclave and I was like,

607
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it yet, and they're like, no, the

608
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: real one.

609
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: Amazing.

610
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: And then I watched the movie.

611
00:30:58,960 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: It's a great movie.

612
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: Yes, such a good movie. I was honestly like, it's

613
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: like up my alley in a lot of ways because

614
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: I like weird history and like weird Catholic shit.

615
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: But like Catholicism is cinematic.

616
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Minds is such a good actor, but it is

617
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: so disappointing how he pronounces his name.

618
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: I know it is mac Quid. Doesn't know who that is.

619
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: It's the lead guy from the movie the guy. Who's

620
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: the guy, the guy? Okay, yeah, yeah, the.

621
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Guy and his name is spelled Ralph Fiennis. That has

622
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: pronounced ray fines. Yeah, it's really fucked up. Honestly, I say,

623
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: as someone with the last name of Abu Gazol is

624
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: a weird.

625
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: Name, and you're right.

626
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: Sorry, Magpie, No, it's okay. I don't know how to

627
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: transition ads. But here's some ads. Maybe one of them

628
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: is for a pope. I don't know, they're probably not.

629
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: I think we have that probably is a band category.

630
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 2: We probably don't get religion ads. I hope we don't.

631
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: We try not do whatever you want around religion. They're

632
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: all fine and all bad equally. Here's the ads and

633
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: we're back, and we totally didn't spend all of the

634
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: time during the ads talking about attractive cardinals in the

635
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: movie Stanley Tucci, I think I would actually be better

636
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: at all this. It's like, I actually do watch a

637
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: lot of movies and TV and all that shit. I

638
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: just I'm a weird combo of face blind and don't

639
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: pay attention to names unless they're like literally in the

640
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: history books that I'm running scripts about. And so whenever

641
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: I watch movies with people, I'm like, wait, which one's

642
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: that guy? And they're like, literally the main character. We've

643
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: been watching this TV show for a week, and I'm like,

644
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: but he's wearing a different coat.

645
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: I understand that struggle.

646
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: No one can change clothes run. He's an outfit. That's

647
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: how we can track them. So there's this way that

648
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: people tend to understand the origins of Western democracy, and

649
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to argue that this particular way of thinking

650
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: about things is incomplete. The usual story seems to start

651
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: with autocracy, you start with the king, you start with

652
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: ye oldie sortie times, and everything is only England, and

653
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: England's the only thing that matters. But unfortunately we're stuck

654
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: with it because they exported law all over the world.

655
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: So we got to talk about it.

656
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: Wait, are we just skipping over like Athens and such?

657
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: Well, in this context, yes, because I'm not going to

658
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: track from Greek democracy, I'm going to attract from like

659
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: folk democracy coming from gotcha. And actually, interestingly, I think

660
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: the Roman legal system doesn't influence the English legal system

661
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: as much as the folks moot stuff that we're going

662
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: to talk about, but fascinating, but I'm not certain about that.

663
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: I know there is Roman influence. So when people talk

664
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: about the like you have the only sort of times

665
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: of kings and monarchs and some rich nobles underneath them,

666
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: and then people are like, bo, what about democracy? And

667
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: I guess those people actually usually are reference in Greek

668
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: democracy when they claim these things. In this telling, it

669
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: is rich people clamoring for democracy. The merchant classes, the

670
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: people who got rich through the economic system that will

671
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: eventually create capitalism, are usually in the sort of English

672
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: and Western European sense, presented as the people who sort

673
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: of first are doing the voting, creating the parliaments and

674
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: the constitutions. The English Civil War is an example of this.

675
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: The rich overthrow the king for a while, and they're

676
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: actually worse to the poor overall, and they also genocide

677
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: the Irish, so I'm pretty mad about that. Then the

678
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 2: king comes back. But the work of building democracy in

679
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 2: the story is largely done by the rich slowly getting

680
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 2: more power through parliamentary systems or whatever. Only later do

681
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: the poor start having their way. By the time of

682
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: the French Revolution, the rich get better at turning poor

683
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: people against the nobility. But again usually it's the bourgeois

684
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: classes that are doing well in this reading. In this

685
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: story of the origins of democracy, it rises at the

686
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: same time as capitalism, and not coincidentally capitalism, the rule

687
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: of the rich is democracy in this telling. Most versions

688
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: of the history of Habeas corpus tie into this version

689
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: of events, because when you look up the history of

690
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 2: Habeas Corpus, you're going to get and it's not wrong

691
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: this stuff. But you start with the Magna Carta, which

692
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: is the first western constitution in Europe. This is a

693
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: really good example of they have no names. They have

694
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 2: one name. They literally could all be named King John.

695
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: If you read me anything that happened during English history,

696
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: if it happened more than two hundred years ago, and

697
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: named the King John, I would just believe you with

698
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: a straight face. King John had just lost a war

699
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 2: with France, and he was trying to get the barons

700
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: to pay him what was called scootage or scuttage or

701
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: some shit, which is basically, look, I'm either going to

702
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: can script you or you give me money, which is

703
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: a fairly common way to get money for your war.

704
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: The Confederacy were really good at this too. Honestly, the

705
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: Union probably did it too. Everyone fucking does this shit

706
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: give me money to rebuild a military. He had also

707
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: just been excommunicated by our friend, the Pope. I believe innocent.

708
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: I think it was one of the innocents, but I

709
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: might actually not sure. I literally didn't put the Pope

710
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: name in here, and it only comes up because we

711
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 2: were just talking about it. He's extra unpopular, this King John.

712
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: In twelve fifteen, a bunch of barons led a rebellion.

713
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: They conquered London and King John surrendered. Rather than depose him,

714
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: they made him sign a document giving rich people more rights.

715
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 2: This is called the Magna Carta. Is the first written

716
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 2: constitution in Europe. It really and truly was for rich people.

717
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: Peasants didn't gain shit out of it for centuries, but

718
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: it includes the seed of habeas corpus. Article thirty nine

719
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: of it says quote no Freeman, which is a pretty

720
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: important emphasis right there. No freeman shall be taken or imprisoned,

721
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: but by the lawful judgment of his peers, or by

722
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: the rule of the land. And like what a thing

723
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: to have to write down, like rite you have to

724
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: break the law to go to jail, you know, or

725
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: you have to get accused of breaking the law to

726
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: go to jail. Do you know when the poor started

727
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: getting their rights in England during this time? The fucking

728
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: Black Death when half the population died, of thirty to

729
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: fifty percent of the population died, there's a labor shortage.

730
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: That's some leverage, baby, Yeah, that's some fucking leverage.

731
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: Most of the articles you'll find about this, if they're

732
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: not like academic articles specifically about this, very specifically, are

733
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: pointing out the comparison to the COVID era. No one

734
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: wants to work anymore when people actually start having to

735
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: pay decent wages. Yeah, and so the peasants around this

736
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: time managed to get wages two or three times higher,

737
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: and a lot of times they still were like, no,

738
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: I just straight up don't want to work, Like everyone

739
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: I know just died, and I assume I'm about to die,

740
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: you know what, I don't feel like right selling my

741
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 2: precious time on this earth.

742
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not like they need to like get

743
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: a bunch of money to you know, buy products and services.

744
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: If you want a transition, yeah, we already did it.

745
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: If you don't, this is just a really good transition

746
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: that's been missed.

747
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, especially since I really.

748
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: That last look, just imagine that that was the one

749
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: we used last and yeah, we're all good.

750
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: You know what, let's just throw it an extra ad

751
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: for potatoes.

752
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 1: Potatoes delicious, that's the ad.

753
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to grow a bunch of my porch

754
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: again right now. I will probably fail like previous times

755
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: because I refuse to read instructions, But tomatoes are easier

756
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: to grow than potatoes. I'm just gonna say it anyway. Also,

757
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: during the Black Death, really silver lining here. The Black

758
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: Death was very bad. The silver lining here.

759
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: The very like rusted over silver lining. Yeah, the one

760
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: that needs to be polished a hell of a lot.

761
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah one you got to like wade through the corpses

762
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: of your family to get to It's bad. A lot

763
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: of property reverted to the commons just by default, because

764
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff was abandoned because a lot of

765
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: people died, and it didn't overall pick poor versus rich

766
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 2: who died, you know, because they didn't understand how disease works.

767
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: Now that people understand how disease works, disease kills poor

768
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: people more. It's great. Not coincidentally, the rights of women

769
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: evolved after the Black Death as well, specifically a lot

770
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: of like property rights because they're like, well who owns this?

771
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: And you're like, well, my husband, did you know?

772
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: Yeah?

773
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 2: I do? Now, fuck you, there's nobody around. By the

774
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 2: seventeenth century, Parliament was fighting the king again. Sixteen seventy nine,

775
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: you get the Habeas Corpus Act. This doesn't create Habeas

776
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: corpus that already exists. It gives deadlines for responding to

777
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: rits of Habeas corpus. It starts being like, hey, you know,

778
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: you actually got to take that shit seriously. If a

779
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 2: prisoner is like, hey, why am I in here, you

780
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: actually have a timeline that you got to give them

781
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: an answer. And from there it passed into the US Constitution.

782
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: It remains there to this day. Although nineteen ninety six

783
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 2: Congress passed the Anti Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act

784
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 2: I put a bunch of limitations on rits of habeas

785
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 2: corpus mostly around, like you could kind of write them

786
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: over and over again. You're on death row, Like why not,

787
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 2: you know, just be like, hey, why am I in here?

788
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 3: Hey?

789
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: Why am I in here? And then you get this

790
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: argument about Guantanamo Bay in two thousand and five and

791
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, they were like, heyeas corpus does

792
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: not apply to people in Guantanamo Bay. Two thousand and

793
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: eight Supreme Court said, yeah, it does. This is a

794
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: true retelling. But I want to go back further because

795
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: I think it is a dangerous myth to entangle the

796
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: rise of democracy with the rise of capitalism and tie

797
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 2: it specifically to the Magna Carta, as if that were

798
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: like just fully formed out of their heads. They were like, well,

799
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: what if we do this thing? You know what if

800
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: we have a parliament, right, even if we keep our

801
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 2: narrative in England, we can tell a completely different story

802
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: by telling a larger story, a story I consider more accurate.

803
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 2: It is a story about how democratic practices and ideas

804
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: around due process actually originate way earlier, originating in tribal

805
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: or clan structures going back to the second millennium BC,

806
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: and most specifically, we can discuss them during the quote

807
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: unquote Dark Ages, the era between the end of Roman

808
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 2: rule in the early four hundreds and the Norman conquest

809
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: of ten sixty six. These ideas about bottom up decision

810
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: making and non punitive justice systems were just under the surface.

811
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 2: Western democracy would be a whole lot better and a

812
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: whole lot more democratic if it recognized its actual roots.

813
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: There's this old joke, what do I think about Western democracy?

814
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: Sounds like a good idea. Someone should try it, but

815
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: I know, thank you, which could lead very well into

816
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: this is the end of the episode. We're gonna talk about, well,

817
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: all the shit that I just pitched and cliffhangered on Wednesday.

818
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: What do you got to plug here at the end?

819
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: Like someone trying Western democracy? That was my setup, but

820
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: then I ruined it by over explaining it.

821
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I'm running for Congress in the ninth

822
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: District of Illinois, and you can find what I'm about

823
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: at Cappreillinois dot com. That's Cat with a K. We

824
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: just recently made our volunteer discord server public, so come hang.

825
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: We need local and remote volunteers, and if you've got

826
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: a few bucks to spare it consider sending them to

827
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: my campaign. This is a grassroots progressive campaign. We're taking

828
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: zero corporate money, and we're also trying to use our

829
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: money in smarter, more effective ways that actually help people.

830
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: So if you got a few bucks to spare, consider

831
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: sending them our away. Our average donation is just about

832
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: thirty one bucks. And so instead of wasting it on

833
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: consultants who haven't won elections in a decade, or ads

834
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: that aren't actually effective and are just kind of plastered everywhere,

835
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: we're trying to do things like mutual aid and direct action.

836
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: So like we just in exchange for a food donation,

837
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: we gave people yard signs. We were able to fully

838
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 1: stock a food pantry last weekend our kickoff event to

839
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: keep it accessible. It wasn't like five hundred dollars a plate.

840
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: You had to bring a box of Pazard tampons, and

841
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: we ended up collecting our fifty six hundred for people

842
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: who can't afford them. And we just launch our high

843
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: school public service grant program for kids who want to

844
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: do mutual aid projects this summer. Yeah, Catfreillinois dot com.

845
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: Come hang and hope to see in the discord.

846
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, And if people want to hear us talking

847
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: more about other stuff. Kat was on a year or

848
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: so ago. We talked about community gardens.

849
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: Actually almost yeah, it was the day I got laid off.

850
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh congrats.

851
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. That was the day I got laid

852
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: off and I was like bailing. And actually that episode

853
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: like we want to help kids build community gardens with

854
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: this grant program, and that partially inspired it. So thank

855
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: you for that.

856
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: Oh hell yeah, well thanks to the people who built

857
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: all those community gardens and too. Yeah, and listen to

858
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: other podcasts if they exist, Sophie. Are their other podcasts?

859
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, cools and Media dot com.

860
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, Well, see you all on Wednesday.

861
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: Bye, cool people who did cool stuff. It's a production

862
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

863
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us

864
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 3: out on the I Heard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

865
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts.