WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 188 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:03.080 Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you. But 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:33.400 Sometimes there is a topic that is too big for 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:40.000 just one podcaster. Sometimes a simple medical podcaster, a simple 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.160 wartime journalist can't handle a topic on their own. They 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.840 need to combine forces. A special team up has to happen. 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.000 And that, my friends, is what's happening today on this 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.200 special crossover edition of the House of Pod And it 0:00:54.240 --> 0:01:02.280 could happen here in hop Ich Hoppitch special myself, doctor 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:06.400 cave Hote Hope I'm saying there correctly, and James Stout 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.360 are going to be talking to you, along with two 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:13.240 very special guests about what's happening out there in the protest, 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:17.440 What risks the protesters are facing, what health concerns we 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.320 have for them, how they can best prepare and more. 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.600 James, Hey, buddy. Hey, it's nice. Nice to be podcasting 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:25.120 with you again. 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.880 You really enjoy our team ups here, our special Marvel 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:28.800 team ups that we do. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.800 It's a fait, it's a fun one. You're my favorite collaborator. 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:33.520 Covey. Hey, I'm going to. 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.080 Take that as total sincerity, even though I'm not entirely sure. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.000 So I thank you for that. Yeah, because I think 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.280 that sounded sincere enough. I like these I like the 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:43.200 me too. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:43.760 I do too. 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.160 Let's introduce our guests. We have some very special guests. 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.320 I will actually ask you guys to introduce yourselves. Let's 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.320 start with you, Miriam. Can you tell us a little 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.120 bit about who you are and what your background in 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:57.640 this field is. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.360 Sure, Hi, I'm Miriam, she or they pronouns. My background 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.040 in the field of podcasting is that I'm with the 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.200 collective Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which puts out the 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.400 podcast Live Like the World Is Dying, as well as 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.640 the podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and the spectacle. 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.680 And my experience in the field of what I think 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.120 we're here to talk about today is that I've been 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.760 a street metic for over a decade, which means I've 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.840 treated a lot of injuries on people who've been messed 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:28.680 up by interactions with police. 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:31.200 I mean, we're going to talk about this more, but 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.960 my first question is, is it pretty much ninety percent 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.880 or more violence from the police that you encounter. Do 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:42.400 you ever encounter anything else, like violence amongst protesters themselves 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:44.919 or something else that happens along the way, or is 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.280 it solely what you're experiencing is treating violence from the 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:50.399 side of the police. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.600 So that's a good question. It is mostly violence from police. 0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:00.240 Sometimes it is violence from non state affiliated or or 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.280 at least not on duty fascists so you know, you're 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.440 proud boys, you know, other people like that, or just 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:13.560 generally sort of hostile right wing actors. Sometimes it is also, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.960 you know, sort of underlying medical stuff more so, like 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.560 somebody has been out at the march all day and 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.639 they didn't bring their medication with them and so they're 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.920 having a seizure, and you know, then there's also environmental stuff. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.799 You hate, stroke, your hypothermia, you're I was running to 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:31.640 catch up with the march and I stepped off the curb, 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.880 weird ow, you know, stuff like that. But in terms 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.960 of violence, yeah, it's it's mostly coming from the cops. 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.760 I've I've certainly never seen a friendly fire incident of 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.800 violence amongst amongst protesters. I'm sure it could happen, but 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.960 but I have not seen it. I've seen people that 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.119 I'm in the streets with or wherever with attacked by 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.320 by people who wish them harm, who are people from 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.360 the state or you know, like I said, not currently 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.960 on duty as cops, but you know, basically cops. 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.240 No, I'm digressing too far, and I need to introduce 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.800 her other guests. But I have another follow up question 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.840 and I need to ask. I'm so curious, Please, have 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.520 you ever had to take care of, say, someone on 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:15.840 the other side who's been injured. 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.440 So as anybody who works in any kind of emergency, 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.920 you know, medical response will tell you. Anybody who's an 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.080 a MT or even anybody who's like a lifeguard, the 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.320 first thing you do before you approach a patient is 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:34.800 established scene safety. So if a Nazi has been hurt, 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.480 it is not safe for me to approach that patient 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.159 because there's a Nazi over there. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.160 I see, Okay, I think I'm picking up what you're 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:43.520 putting down on that one. 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.360 So it has not happened. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.800 Yeah, anybody who is acting as a street medic is 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.640 acting under what called good Samaritan laws, you know, which 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.680 protect you from any kind of bad outcome. If you 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.279 start taking care of somebody, you know, start helping somebody 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.560 out in the streets based on whatever train you have, 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.440 you know. Same thing like if if somebody collapses at 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.160 a bus stop and you start doing CPR based on 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.839 the Red Cross class you took, that's good Samaritan stuff. 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.640 Same way, it does not obligate you to intervene, especially 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:19.159 in approaching somebody who is actively seeking to do you harm. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.279 So I would not consider that within my within my lane. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:24.240 Understood. 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.719 Well, let's introduce our second guest. We have doctor Richard Pharaoh, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.839 who is a doctor in the Los Angeles area and 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.440 is a family practice physician. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.880 May I call you Richard? Uh? Yeah, you may? Okay, 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.000 very good, Richard, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.240 Gotty, it's a pleasure to be on. You know, you 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.719 kind of mentioned it already. I'm Kelly Medicine. I've also 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:50.360 experienced in street medicine in the LA area. Also, you know, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.920 this is obviously something that's really important to me right now, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.880 given everything that's been going on. In the city and 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.120 also important for me just giving the fact that I'm 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:02.159 a Latino, I'm a proud Coaster, Rikan Cuban, and just 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.520 that's part of the huge reason why I'm in medicine. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.719 So I'm really happy to have an opportunity to talk about, 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:09.960 you know, the ice protests and the stuff that's been 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:11.400 going on to protect our community. 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.240 That's great to hear. Can you tell us a little 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.800 bit about what you've been involved with recently down in 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:17.680 Los Angeles? 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.960 So I as far as what I've been involved in 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.800 in Los Angeles, you know, I've been coordinating with some 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.919 of my colleagues who I knew from residency and just 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.760 other colleagues just who are all involved in social justice, 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:35.000 as well as the CIR, the Physicians Union, you know, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.760 who are engaged in trying to like provide medical support 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.920 to the protests in the area. So I've had experience 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.240 working on some of the protests that have occurred both 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:45.680 in LA and OC. 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:47.440 Yeah, that's really good to hear. 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.080 I think people will have been spending a lot of 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.760 time like watching footage the protests right in the last 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.800 I know what we weekend now, fuck knows, it seems 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.880 like a long time. I haven't been sleeping very much. 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.640 Give or take eight to twelve years. 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.920 Time has meant nothing. Yeah, March of twenty. 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.640 Twenty, yes exactly, yea, it is sixteenth or twenty twenty, 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.240 and here we are. I people would have seen a 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.480 lot of people get hurt, right, And I like, as 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:19.960 a journalist, like I was in La last week, you 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.360 kind of tend to get towards the more violent end 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.880 of things because that is our job. Most people who 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.040 go to protest don't get hurt, right, And I don't 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.520 want people to like hear anything we're saying today and think, 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.560 oh God, I'm going to get fucked up, because most 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.160 people don't get fucked up. And like my stunts, You 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.640 don't fight fascist because you think you're going to win 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.000 or you think you might not get hurt. You fight 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.680 fascist because they are fascists. And sometimes people do get hurt. 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.400 So let's talk about the ways that people get hurt. 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.360 Either of you is welcome to answer this, but like, 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.280 what are some of the common mechanisms of injury that 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.560 you see when you are out there street mega King, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:04.880 when when the cops are out there hurting people. 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.360 I would say that like in terms of the things 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.000 that we would typically see. I just want to start 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.160 off by saying, like, absolutely, we're not out there just 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.960 because we know that we're going to be successful in 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.480 any type of advocacy. If that was the case, then 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.840 we wouldn't have that many people, you know on that front. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.240 You know a lot of people know that it's you 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.320 might be losing ground, but you're not there because you're 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.120 trying to when you're doing it because you know that 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.079 you want to be on the right side of history. 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:34.960 You want to do the thing that you believe to 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.040 be morally right. As far as like the type of 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.080 injuries that you would typically see, I think in order 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.120 to answer this question, I would kind of break it off. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:43.440 Into two sections. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.920 Like you have mainly protests that have not evolved into 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.559 violent confrontations with law enforcement, and you have protests where 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.520 things like you know, for instance, right control agents have 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.960 been deployed in like the like the non you know, 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.000 dangerous side of things, Like you might have the kind 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.839 of stuff that you would encounter in any sort of 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.679 major events. You know, you're gonna deal with dehydration, You're 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.679 going to deal with people who are like in in 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.760 overcrowded areas that might you know, accidentally fall hit and 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.280 trip over one another. In those kind of circumstances, you know, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.480 when we enter into the space where you know, riot 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.640 control agents are being involved, the quote unquote less lethals 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.200 non lethals, which I'm going to kind of go into later, 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.080 is a bit of a non uh a misnomer. In 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.040 those circumstances, we look at like chemical exposure to things 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.360 like to your gas. You know, there's a lot of 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.760 different ways that that manifests that type of exposure, and 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.200 we can kind of get into that a little bit 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.560 as well. And then also we have you know, projectile 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.240 weapons like rubber bullets, you know, flash bangs, those type 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.520 of things that you might encounter, you know, like sort 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.720 of blunt trauma to people's bodies. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:55.960 Yeah, and you'd like to add Miriam. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.120 I mean, first of all, like you're doing great out there. 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.520 Good for you for out there. It's a hell of 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.800 a time. There's regional variation, I think to some of 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.560 the stuff that we see. So I am based in 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.280 New York City. You know, not all of this the 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:13.840 work I've done has been in New York City, but 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.760 most of it has and in New York city. We 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.800 don't have tear gas. They just don't do it here 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.679 because the police found out after deploying tear gas extensively 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.360 during the RNC that the thing about tear gas is 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.320 it gets sucked into vents, and when it gets sucked 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.560 into vents, it gets on all kinds of people in 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.800 the subway and in buildings, and that causes lawsuits. And 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.640 the NYPD does not enjoy that, so they use pepper 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.160 spray instead, because pepper spray is more directed, it doesn't 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:49.040 linger in the air the same way. You hit the 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:50.840 people that you are trying to hit, you know, and 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.920 anybody else who's walking by, and also your buddies who 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.839 are standing next to you because you fired into the wind, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:58.200 which is always a good time. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.720 Any such cases, Yeah. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.440 So many, There's a there's a whole series of what 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:10.679 we are calling locally peppa pigs, which are it's what 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.280 you think it is. So yeah, we see a lot 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.080 of a lot of pepper sprite. We also, because one 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.760 of the primary weapons of the NYPD are just sheer, 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:23.680 overwhelming numbers, we see a lot of just direct hands 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:28.280 on violence, just cops hitting people, punching people, throwing people 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.200 to the ground, we see a lot of very rough takedowns. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.120 Now if you're you know, acting as a street medic 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.680 and in that situation, you don't get to treat those 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.400 people because if they are taking down by a cop, 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.880 they are then swarmed by many other cops and they 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.520 get taken away. Then that's something that we might see 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.800 when we meet that person later at jail support. But 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.640 the other weapon that we used to see quite a 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:56.040 bit but haven't in more recent years is the l RAT, 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.839 which is a sound cannon. They do still use it, 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:03.400 but they use it to like make announcements and annoy people. 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.000 They use it to like make obnoxiously loud announcements, but 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.560 not to blast out people's ear drums, which was sort 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.760 of its weaponized form. We haven't seen that recently though 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.680 police will willie you know, they all carry tasers. You 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.840 don't tend to see a lot of that at protests, 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.520 but it's certainly something that we're constantly aware that they 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.559 have the ability to do. But yeah, it is here. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:34.880 It's mostly pepper spray, nightsticks, fists, knees, you know that 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:35.520 kind of thing. 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.040 I would assume that a lot of what they'd do, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:44.040 like for example, tear gas was, to my understanding, first 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.920 developed in World War One really to cause confusion amongst 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.160 the enemy. And what I assume a lot of these 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.960 things that they're using, the sound canons, is to create 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.920 panic and confusion and hopefully get people to run and 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.960 move and in mass, unorganized ways. And I wonder if 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.080 you're seeing crush injuries, if you're seeing injuries related to 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.480 just the people moving and being scattered around and running 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.880 in different directions, is that something that you that you 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.640 have seen in this process, either of you. 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.719 Yeah, well, just real quick, like to the first thing 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.360 you said, the absolute like the purpose of every police 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:26.120 weapon is to cause fear. One of the reasons that 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.800 I think they so often use things like to your 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.640 gas and pepper spray when they could simply choose to 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:33.839 not is like one, because they have it because their 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.360 budgets are outrageous and they have, you know, all the 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.200 weapons they could ever dream of, and why not you know, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.160 well we have it. But I think that the other 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.960 reason they use it is because it does freak people out. 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.320 It scares people, and so you know a lot of 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.880 people have had like a big dude shove them before. 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.400 You know, that's like not a super unfamiliar situation. It's 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.360 not a great situation. People don't like it, but they 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.920 kind of they're familiar with it. They're familiar with the 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.040 concept getting sprayed by a mysterious chemical that makes you 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.760 feel a thing you've never really felt before. That's a 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.640 lot scarier. And you don't know what's in it. You 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.760 don't know what's on your body, you don't know why 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.240 it hurts the way it hurts like. You just know, like, oh, yeah, 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:17.800 I mean, I guess, I guess this is what tear 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:19.680 gas feels like. I guess this is what pepper spray 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.880 feels like. Yeah, it's frightening, and yeah, people absolutely get 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.400 hurt running away it makes it difficult to see. Like 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.560 squeezing your eyes shut is like a very immediate reaction. 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:35.680 So people run, They lose whoever they were at the 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.880 action with, they get separated from their group, they get disoriented, 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.800 they may be having trouble breathing. They may be panicking 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.360 because they're having trouble breathing. Then they're having trouble breathing 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.080 because they're panicking, you know. So yeah, you do absolutely 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:48.760 see all of that. 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.440 Yeah, I mean, I really want to second what Miriam 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.360 has been saying here. You know, as far as like 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.920 the most common agent that you see in tear gas 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.800 in the United States at this time, it's believed to 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.120 be agents CS and this this is something like you mentioned, 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.800 it was developed right around the time of World War Two, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.960 and they started like be coming into effect in the 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.480 in the in the late fifties. A point of thought 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.440 for this is it was actually made legal for use 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.600 in warfare in the nineties by the Geneva Convention. So 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.360 you don't see the US or other armies like using 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.440 this on soldiers, but we're using it in protests. 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:26.320 Well you don't. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:31.320 You don't necessarily see the US military following the Geneva Convention. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.280 Okay, well we can. That's a fair point. Yeah. 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.640 Of the wars of law, the TAA gas is one 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.880 that it is walls of law. Those of wool people 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.640 do be using TA gas sometimes, but yeah, they shouldn't be. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:44.040 Yeah, and you're right. 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.400 Is first in the Geneva Conventions in nineteen twenty five, 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.400 but then nineteen ninety seven specifically it was prohibited. The 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.720 thought behind that is they did it because they didn't 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.440 want someone to get one gas and not know exactly 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.120 what it was. And then use the really nasty stuff 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.800 like sirin gas, et cetera. And the reason our police 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.080 are able to do it on our protesters is because 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.520 they're pretty confident that our protesters don't have it would 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.360 use siren gas, so they feel they feel free to 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.720 use it at our Yeah. But speaking of sound canons 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:21.640 and disturbing noises being shot into your ear holes commercials, 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:22.640 we'll be right back. 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.000 All right, we're back. We should talk about noxious gases. 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.080 There has been this persistent rumor, I don't just mean 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.560 in the last link ten days, there's been a persistent 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.440 rumor every time that people have been taar gused that 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.320 this time the cops are using super tear gas, special 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.080 tea gas, cancer ta gas. To be clear, like the 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.280 effects of tear gas on people, especially to my understanding, 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.200 like people who menstrate, are fucking long term and nasty. 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.040 So let's just address like what are the reagents in 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.359 tag gas and what are some of the outcomes we 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.560 can expect short term and long term? And then do 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.160 we suspect that the cups are using super tags this time? 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.679 Well, I guess in terms of like the agent, like 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.200 we kind of mentioned it a little bit ago, agencs 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.680 the more complicated long name, oh chlora benze laden melanitril. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:25.919 So this is actually. 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.880 It's so that's absolutely the kind of thing you talk 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:34.119 about in dinner conversations. But the compound itself, it's actually 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.560 not in a gas form. It's actually a solid. It's 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:41.440 a crystalline substance that's released that's aerosolized after any type 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.679 of like explosion from you know, a grenade or canister, 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.040 and it's as far as you know the types of 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.320 things that you will experience. It takes effect in the 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.000 first twenty sixty seconds of contact with the body. It's 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:58.400 a nucleophilic substance, so that means it will adhere to tears, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.200 it will adhere to moisture on your skin, like sweat, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.000 any type of like saliva or mucus, and like the 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.880 first things you'll typically notice are the tearing, the redness, burning, 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.960 blurred vision in your eyes. Specifically on your skin, you 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.800 could develop burns or rash. A contact dermatitis has also 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.240 been associated with a development of this on your skin, 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.879 burning irritation in your mouth. You can also develop running nose. 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.760 The more kind of more serious, long term effects that 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.520 can be more systemic you can actually develop shortness of breath, wheezing, 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.240 or chest tightness. You can also develop nausea or vomiting 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.639 if you ingest much of it while you're in the 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.040 protest and you kind of already brought it up as well. Unfortunately, 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.399 we don't have a lot of systemic research that has 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.639 been done on the impacts of agents like CS that 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.280 are in tear gas on people, but we have a 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.360 couple of things that have come up about pregnancy outcomes. 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.760 We do see increased rates of uter and cramping, menstrual bleeding, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.840 breast tenderness, and delayed menstrual ramping as well in pregnancy. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.480 We also don't know how well it crosses into breast milk, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.560 so you know, it's this kind of challenging question and 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.040 the CDC is official like stance on it is this 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.480 idea that like they don't believe that it crosses. But again, 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:17.760 we don't have that research, so we can't know for sure. 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.159 Great cool, good thing to be fogging Live city blogs with. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:26.440 Yeah, well, we don't know everything it does, so probably 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.040 some of it is fine. 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.480 You know, James, when you're mentioning how it keeps coming 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.760 up and there's these concerns of there being. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:33.760 Like a cause and cancer. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.000 We have no proof of that right now, but I 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.600 mean we really don't know, so it is a little 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:43.240 concerning long term, especially journalists like yourself who are exposed 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.879 to it a lot, so that that is something I 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:48.760 would love to see. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:50.640 But I mean, how you're going to study it? Who 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.520 going to find that? Yeah, I mean I don't know. 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:55.200 Rfka Junior might who knows. 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.760 It might be like we're not funding real research anymore 0:19:58.880 --> 0:19:59.560 like vaccine. 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:01.919 So we get on the right pubcosts, we can probably 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:02.600 make that happen. 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.119 So before we move off of the gas, let's just 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.199 talk about, yeah, treatment of it and what you what 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.320 you will do out there in the field someone comes 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.840 to you, and let's try to address some of the 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.399 most common misconceptions about what you should be treating or 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:19.160 how you should be treating. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:20.040 Yeah. 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:25.359 Oh yeah, I'm so ready to go. Yeah yeah. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:30.760 Since forever, there have been like rumors that there are 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.159 these I think because of sort of the way that 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.879 it is mysterious, like the cops have these, like you know, 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:41.600 containers of this awful poisonous, magical potion that they spray 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.160 on you, and then we have to find the antidote. 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:49.120 So things that I have heard as being good for 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.440 tear gas and pepper spray include raw onion, lemon juice, 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:58.199 apple cider, vinegar, Coca cola, avocado. 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.400 Delicious, it sounds sounds. 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:09.040 A nice great actually, and then the classic milk as 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.840 well as maylocks. My personal favorite is when somebody like 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.520 jumps into correct somebody on milk and it's like no, no, no, 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.200 actually it's milk of magnesia, not regular milk. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:25.639 So oh you got to get it from which. 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:32.000 Is what you actually do is flush out the eyes 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.520 with water. I mean, that's it. That's the only thing. 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.399 It's water. The number of things that should go into 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:43.320 a human eye are basically water and any any medicine 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.320 that is designed for the human eye. And saline solution, 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:48.760 I guess you know. And definitely you could do an 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.359 eye flush with saline. It's just that if you have 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.320 saline in your bag, it weighs just as much as water, 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:58.320 and you can't drink it when you get tired. 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.320 You can, and way you can, but it's. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.920 Not recommended and you can't refill it from a tap. 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.080 You can drink anything, James, if you're not a cow, 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:11.600 but if you have. 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.840 A bottle of water, you can do a bunch of 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.000 eye flushes, and then when it starts to run low, 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.880 you can refill it from a tap because that has 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.119 water in it too. It's very readily available water in 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:28.280 most places. And all of the other things that are 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.399 out there that people will tell you should use, you 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:34.760 should not use. I have never seen any good evidence 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.280 that any of them are better than water at getting 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.160 pepper spray or cheer gus out of your eye. All 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.520 of them are kind of predicated on this idea that 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:45.520 there's like a chemical reaction you are trying to affect. 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.560 And then that is sort of further based on the 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.720 idea that the reason this stuff hurts is because it 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:54.359 is acidic. Because I think people think, like, what's a 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:56.320 chemical that burns acid? 0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:57.520 Right? 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.359 These are not acidic. That is not how they work. 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:04.280 They are chemical irritants. And you don't want an acid 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.560 base reaction in your eye anyway. 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:09.840 You want to be doing chemistry experiments in your eye. 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:13.359 Yeah, you actually usually wear goggles when you do chemistry experiments. 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:15.040 I'm not like a chemist. 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:19.080 But memium water sure is great, But what about all 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.399 that fluoride you're getting into your eyeballs. 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.080 Okay, have you thought about that. 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.199 That'll prevent eye cavities, Richard? 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:29.000 Anything else to add to that. 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:30.440 I know, I think you hit the nail on the head, 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:35.119 and I think that when I look at what physicians 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:38.280 typically recommend in terms of response to your gas, I 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:42.320 always think back on the doctor Glockham fleckin thread that 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.680 became very popular on Twitter. I'd be very interested to 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:46.359 hear what your thoughts are. 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:47.119 We're on that. 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.000 Miriam I think like one of the things that tended 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:53.240 to come from from that particular thread because he does 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:57.400 have experiences as an ophthalmologist. He mentioned washing your eyes 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.280 with baby shampoo and rinsing copiously. I think like the 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.600 challenge with that is obviously, like what Miriaman mentioned. One, 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:10.080 water saline are the better options for for irrigating your eyes, 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.639 especially after exposure. For one, the fact that it's you know, 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:17.080 you never know what else, like it's it's better to 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.280 avoid any other type of irritants that you could, you know, 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:21.240 be exposed to your eye. Also the fact, like we 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.040 already mentioned, the fact that the agents into your gas 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:26.400 there they're nuclear filth, meaning they're they're attracted to water. 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.159 So by using water itself. You are effectively going to 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:32.720 help to irrigate it. And you know, we typically recommend 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.640 anywhere upwards and twenty minutes for that type of exposure. 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:38.879 And then as far as I'm not sure if you 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:41.400 mentioned milk already, Maria. 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:42.119 Milk counts me. 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:47.200 Yeah, we can't mention it enough eyeball cheese. 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.639 We cannot mention eyeball cheese. 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:50.199 And what. 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:52.320 Is the. 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.600 Let's let's think about what the context of where we 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:04.520 are in a protest. It's very typically outdoors for many hours, 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:10.200 usually in summertime. Exactly kind of like the idea of 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:15.320 putting this you know, this this culture on people's eyes, like. 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:21.119 I think yogurt, actually yogurt. 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:23.040 You may as well, you may as well go and 0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:27.040 get some Greek yogurt and pour it on your eyes, so, 0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:28.920 you know, he really gets back to the idea of 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:33.439 like constant irrigation. Clean water is perfectly fine. If you 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.000 have water at the protests, usually the best thing to 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:39.000 do is have the types of water bottles that have 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.520 like a flip off cap, so that way you can easily, 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:44.320 you know, pour it over their face and then recap 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.080 it for later use on someone else or yourself I 0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:51.479 think the other thing too that's really important to discuss is, 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:56.800 you know, because it's this solid aerosolized substance, it can 0:25:56.840 --> 0:26:00.560 sometimes adhere to your clothing, So you know, there's a 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:01.919 couple of different approaches. 0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:02.639 You know. 0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:05.760 Physicians for Human Rights has a PDF that I strongly 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:09.240 encourage anybody who's listening to a review if you find 0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:11.679 yourself in the position of either being a protester at 0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:14.880 a protest or being a medic at a protest, they 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:19.000 recommend if you've been exposed to your gas to hang 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:22.240 your clothing afterwards in a heavily ventilated place for up 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:24.719 to forty eight hours. If you're not able to do that, 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:29.080 placing your clothing in a plastic bag, including your shoes, 0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:32.600 outside and not mixing it with any of your other 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:36.560 non exposed clothing is the ideal response afterwards. 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:41.400 Yeah, I'll add when doctor Glockinflecken was on our show 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:45.600 talking about this back during George Floyd, we discussed it 0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:48.159 and the other thing that he recommended, and he is 0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:51.200 actually not just a very very funny internet person, he's 0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:56.320 also a very good ophthalmologist. And he also recommended initially 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:59.080 when it happens soon as you can blink rapidly. That 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:01.800 really helps in the sate the tear response. You're still 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:04.600 gonna need water, but it's going to help start get 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:07.760 that jump starter for you, and it's going to require 0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:09.840 a lot of water. About one to two leaders is 0:27:09.880 --> 0:27:12.800 generally what people will say. So it's hard to have 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:16.399 that much with you on hand when you're out there protesting, 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:19.760 but if you're able to, I feel like water is 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:21.560 one of the more important things you can bring with you. 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:25.760 Yeah, So to the thing about the baby shampoo. First 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:28.479 of all, Yeah, I think the recommendation with that is 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.480 to wash the skin around the eyes with the baby shampoo, 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:34.159 not not directly in the eyes, but that that's like 0:27:34.480 --> 0:27:37.879 a less harsh way of removing the chemicals from the 0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:41.080 skin there, because you would definitely wash skin with soap 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:43.560 and water, but I could see maybe using like a 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:47.400 gentler soap directly around the eyes. That makes sense as 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:50.960 far as like my technique with doing an eyeflush in 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:55.840 the streets, a continual twenty minute irrigation just is not feasible. 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:56.080 Now. 0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:59.359 Sometimes at big actions, you know, medics will set up 0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:03.720 clinic space, says Tens, stuff like that, and occasionally very 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:07.680 Occasionally you can do the like true gold standard of 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:12.120 eye irrigation, which is twenty minutes of continual saline irrigation, 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:14.480 where you like have a bag of saline like in 0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:17.200 a hospital and you plug it into a nasal canula 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:18.840 and you tape that to the bridge of the nose 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:22.240 and just let the person lie down. That works, but 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:26.320 like it's just not feasible in most street situations. So 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:32.120 what I do is I will basically I'll put on gloves. 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:36.399 I will get consent, because you know, anytime you're treating 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:39.320 somebody who's been brutalized by the police, you are like 0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:42.080 you are treating an assault victim, and you should prioritize 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:45.840 their consent as much as you can. So I, you know, 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:47.960 do a quick like, hey, what's up. My name's Miriam, 0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.960 I'm a medic. Can I help you. I guide them 0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:54.200 out of the area of immediate danger if they can't see, 0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:59.560 and then I flush first one eye twice, and then 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:01.200 I have them blink a whole bunch, and then the 0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:03.480 other eye twice, and I have them blink a whole bunch, 0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:07.200 and then they're usually able to open their eyes and 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:10.840 navigate safely on their own. Sometimes they need another round 0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.520 with that, especially if I didn't you know, if I missed, 0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.000 you know, if it's dark and there things are moving 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:18.960 around and I miss the eye or something. But usually 0:29:19.160 --> 0:29:21.560 that gets enough out that they are going to be 0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:24.560 able to navigate the situation. And because they are tearing 0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:27.280 a lot, that's part of the flush too, right, the 0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:30.360 body is doing that on its own and flushing too 0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:33.560 much with water. I think in that initial moment, you're 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.040 just washing away tears at that point, so doing like 0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:40.480 a first round of like forceful of forceful flush. You know, 0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:43.160 you're really like using a forceful stream to push the 0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:48.160 chemicals out. And then Okay, their eyes are open, they're 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:52.080 still in pain, and like that's just gonna last for 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:54.440 a while. Your eyes are going to continue to hurt, 0:29:54.520 --> 0:29:57.640 and like that sucks. You've been harmed. Somebody did a 0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:00.240 harmful thing to you, and you are going and to 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.880 continue to have pain for a little while. But if 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:06.680 you can see that, your immediate danger is reduced and 0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:09.040 you can get out of there, and you can, you know, 0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:12.360 in a calmer moment, maybe do another couple eye flushes. 0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:14.800 Maybe you know, use soap and water on the face, 0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:17.600 clean up a little bit and like be a little 0:30:17.600 --> 0:30:20.720 bit happier with how you feel. But my priority in 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:23.560 the immediate moments after somebody's been spread is to like 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.560 help them so that they can get out of there 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:27.120 if they need to, because they probably do. 0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:27.920 Yeah. 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:32.560 Yeah, well, speaking of things that will make you tear up, 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:37.440 I'm sorry, I'm terrible commercials stay tube will be right back, beautiful. 0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:52.479 All right, we are back, and I guess let's talk 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:56.080 about rubber bullets of various impagnations, and then let's talk 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:59.120 about how people actions people can take to keep themselves 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:02.240 a little bit safe. Right, understanding that you are not 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:04.360 the one who gets to choose if violence arrives at 0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:07.640 your protest. The cops are. And we're recording this on Sunday, 0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:10.680 like date in June, and people had their big No 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:16.719 Kings March yesterday. They were largely like extremely nonviolent, and 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:20.040 they still got attacked by the cops in La. So 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:23.600 let's talk about impact munitions. 0:31:23.680 --> 0:31:23.840 Right. 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:26.480 One thing we didn't mention actually was pepper balls. I've 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:29.400 had the a combo, yeah right, I've had the ill 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:34.080 fortune and receiving some pepper balls in the balls. Oh yeah, 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:36.760 very uncomfortable. Cops will try and shoot you in the groin. 0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:39.920 I had a colleague who encountered this just a few 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:40.520 days ago. 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:43.560 I'm sorry they fucking like, there's no. 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:48.239 Yeah, it happens with such frequency that you'd have to 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:51.440 be really trying to believe that it was an accident. 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:53.760 So let's talk about things that can hit you, right, 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:56.480 if we start with pepper balls and then move on 0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:59.680 up to like what people call rubber bullets, which I 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:03.960 think baton rounds is like a more technical description of 0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:06.440 what they are, or marker rounds for a big foam 0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:08.960 or rubber things that hit you. Sometimes they leave a 0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:11.960 little puff of chalk on you, and theory like that 0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:15.440 identifies you for the cops to arrest you. I guess 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:17.520 in practice it's just another thing that they can use 0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:20.560 to smash into you. But let's talk about some of 0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:23.240 the things that the cops can shoot from their little guns. 0:32:23.400 --> 0:32:26.600 Bean backgrounds is another one, right, that comes out of 0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:29.800 a shotgun, and it's what it sounds like, right, It's 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:32.880 a bean bag traveling very fast. Somebody here in San 0:32:32.920 --> 0:32:35.440 Diego lost their eye to one of those in twenty twenty. 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:39.480 But let's talk about some of these impact munitions and 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:41.960 like what the potential risks are for people there. 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:43.320 Yeah, I think that. 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.520 I mean, just the one point I want to bring 0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:50.600 up in terms of these they're often called in the 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:56.040 media non lethal or quote unquote less lethals. Yeah, and 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.280 I think that what's really important to recognize, and you 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:00.959 kind of already hinted do with James, people have been 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:04.000 killed with rubber bullets, plastic bullets. 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:05.160 We actually have. 0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:09.120 Amnesty International did a report in twenty twenty three that 0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:13.760 you know, showed that over the course of about five years, 0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:17.920 you know, dozens of people have died as a result. 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:19.880 Of the use of rubber bullets. 0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:24.240 We showed that between nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty nine, 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:28.760 just in Ireland, sixteen people were killed. In Palestine, between 0:33:28.760 --> 0:33:32.040 eighty seven and ninety three, twenty people died just from 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:36.240 the use of rubber bullets. And you know, that's reports. 0:33:36.360 --> 0:33:39.960 We don't know how many in truth actually were impacted 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:40.200 by that. 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:40.720 Yeah. 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.760 I would also add to the British Medical Journal back 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:47.280 in twenty seventeen looked at about two thousand little bit 0:33:47.360 --> 0:33:50.920 or two thousand people who had been affected by these projectiles, 0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:55.840 and three percent actually did cause immediate mortality and then 0:33:55.920 --> 0:34:00.080 fifteen percent was long term chronic injury or illness or 0:34:00.200 --> 0:34:03.400 some sort of being maimed from the event. So, yeah, 0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:07.240 you're exactly right. It's pretty significant, especially with the number 0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:09.799 of these that are shot. You know, they don't have 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:13.000 to keep record about how many of these they shoot. 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:16.240 So Actually, one other question I have for you, Richard, 0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:20.319 that you could help answer to one in LA did 0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:23.120 you see them shooting these things and you would kind 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:25.280 of allude to that you felt that they were actually 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:28.800 directing them towards you. Did you feel that, being there 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:32.560 as a medical professional, that you were being targeted. 0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:37.200 I myself was fortunate and not hit by a rubber bullet. 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:40.839 From witnessing my colleagues who were actually there present at 0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:45.720 this protest, they themselves were hit with HERR bullets below 0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:49.440 the navel. He had previous experience from an earlier protest 0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:51.600 that week where he had actually been struggling. The thing 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:53.839 he told me that I remember is like, I'm never 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:54.399 going to one. 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:54.719 Of these things. 0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:57.080 I'm prepared again. Yeah, because he did have that situation 0:34:57.120 --> 0:34:58.640 where he was kind of hit closer to the groin, 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:01.280 So we ended up wearing I remember he was wearing 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:04.520 a kind of a fanny pack for this particular protest 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:07.160 that we were at, and you could very clearly see 0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:10.240 the dust marks, like the chalk marks of their bullets 0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:12.759 struck on this on his on his fanny pack. Yeah, 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:16.440 you know, it's it's it's definitely something that we noticed. 0:35:17.080 --> 0:35:20.719 Many of the other medics at this event commented that 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:24.560 they had been previously struck or targeted once they the 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.880 police began firing rubber bullets. As far as we we, 0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:30.279 fortunately we didn't see anybody who was struck, you know, 0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:34.319 closer to the face. But there were reports after the 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:39.040 No King's protest yesterday that you know, several people had 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.080 been struck in the eye or on the forehead. There 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:44.920 was one picture, i think earlier from earlier this week, 0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:48.160 that one of the reporters in downtown La had been 0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:51.080 struck with a non lethal foam round directly in his 0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:53.680 forehead and it was this you could see this very clear, 0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:59.000 enormous wealth the size of like a grapefruit, Yeah, and bleeding, 0:35:59.320 --> 0:36:02.400 and it was it was you know, very clearly like 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:04.400 aiming above at the face. 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:05.920 In these cases. 0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:09.640 Yeah, there was a huge number during the Chilean protests 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:13.840 in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, eye injuries were huge. There 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:18.719 were hundreds. There's a there's a club somewhere of journalists 0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:22.640 who've lost eyes to rubber bullets. I think they call 0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:27.560 themselves the Cyclops Club or something. They're writers, they you know. 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:31.719 But yeah, like, these things are incredibly dangerous, and eye 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:36.120 injuries especially are really common. They are less lethal only 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.960 in that it is less likely to kill you than 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:43.040 being shot with live ammunition. But like most things are 0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:45.840 less likely to kill you than live ammunia. 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:47.480 Grizzly barry is less likely to kill you. 0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:51.719 My friend Rebecca Watson says, you know, samurai blade is 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:55.600 less lethal than AK forty seven, but it's still not 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:59.040 something you want them to have to use against you. 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:02.279 Ideal if you weren't being attacked doing what is a 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:06.440 constitutionally protected rate in the US. Hey, everyone, I just 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.120 wanted to record a little pick up here to explain 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:12.040 a little bit more I guess about forty millimeter and 0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:17.839 thirty seven millimeter less lethal projectiles. They are sometimes called 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:20.279 baton rounds that I saw baton round written on the 0:37:20.280 --> 0:37:23.160 Safari land thirty seven millimeters one, but they are not 0:37:23.239 --> 0:37:25.360 the same as the baton rounds. You will have seen 0:37:25.560 --> 0:37:29.920 British military using in Northern Ireland. Most of the modern 0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:33.440 ones that I am aware of are not designed to 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:37.560 be skipped off the ground, albeit there deserately are, or 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.319 at least were rubber bullets that were designed to be 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:43.000 skipped off the ground at one point. The use of 0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:44.960 a bullet made of rubber that's fired out of a 0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:50.160 conventional rifle is very rare. In the United States, there 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:54.440 are things called simmunitions, which are munitions fire out of 0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:57.040 a conventional rifle using a different bolt, and they are 0:37:57.040 --> 0:38:00.640 generally used for simulated force on force training. You can 0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:03.560 think about it like going paintballing, but with regular guns 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:05.440 orbit with a bolt that makes it so you can't 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:08.200 load live ammunition into that gun while it's set up 0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:13.040 for simmunitions. Those will use extensively. I believe in Columbia 0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:16.640 identified some simmunition casings. I've not seen those used by 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:20.280 police anywhere in the United States. What the LAPD uses 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:24.080 is a forty millimeter exact impact round. It has a 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:27.920 plastic body and a sponge nosed and that is designed 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:29.920 to be point of an point of impact right, so 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:31.839 shot at someone like you would. 0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:33.120 Shoot a gun at somebody. 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:37.600 There are other leslethos in use even in LA I 0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:40.680 saw a thirty seven millimeter Safari land round. I saw 0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:44.719 FN three H three's, which is like seventeen millimeter. I 0:38:44.760 --> 0:38:50.600 saw pepper balls, various different versions of leslethal munitions, but 0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:53.520 most of the ones that I'm aware of in twenty 0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:56.960 twenty five are designed for point of a point of impact. 0:38:57.320 --> 0:39:00.160 They're also extremely dangerous, and as we've said here, they 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:03.600 can kill you. It's wanting to clarify that, So like, yeah, 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.960 these things are dangerous, right, like they have caused serious 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:09.480 injury or death. Let's assume for a minute that like 0:39:09.520 --> 0:39:12.359 the folks listening have not attended many actions before, right 0:39:12.560 --> 0:39:15.480 that they are right, they're younger or like they just 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:18.200 haven't been in that world in that part of their life, 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:20.680 and they've seen what's happening recently, and they're pissed off 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:23.040 and they want to attend, but they're afraid, right, and 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:25.480 they want to know what they can do, what they 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:28.440 can bring, how they can prepare themselves in the understanding 0:39:28.480 --> 0:39:31.440 that like, it isn't one hundred percent safe because the 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.000 cops can decide to attack you whenever they want. What 0:39:34.040 --> 0:39:36.040 can people bring? How can people prepare to be as 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:36.880 safe as they can be. 0:39:37.239 --> 0:39:40.319 Bring water, I mean not just the eyeflushes, but like 0:39:40.680 --> 0:39:42.680 bring snacks and water. Like you're going to be out 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:44.480 there for a while, you need to keep yourself going. 0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:47.480 You need to keep your friends going. Bring friends like 0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:50.240 be there with somebody who is going to watch your back, 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:55.200 somebody who knows a number for like your emergency contact, 0:39:55.680 --> 0:39:59.360 you know, if you get grabbed stuff like that, especially 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:00.920 if you're new to the It's like, try not to 0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:01.640 run alone. 0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:05.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, even if it's like just hooking up 0:40:05.120 --> 0:40:06.359 with people when you get there. 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:06.960 You know. 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:09.400 Yeah, I've been at a protest that was starting to 0:40:09.400 --> 0:40:12.840 look scary and a woman turned to me and said, 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:15.600 I'm here alone. Are you here alone? And I said yeah, 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:20.439 and she said, now we're here together, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:21.800 which is beautiful. 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:23.160 It's a good place to make friends. 0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.160 It's a very like honest feeling to have. I mean, 0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:28.760 you're seeing for the problem for many people is probably 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.080 the first time that you're seeing someone aiming a project 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:34.120 out at you and am aiming a firearm at you 0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:37.760 and firing. So yeah, you know, there's a good reason 0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:40.560 to feel worried. That's like the fact that we have 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:43.160 to worry about that in this country period is you know, 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:46.040 it's very chilling. I think that, you know, Miriam mentioned 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.840 it bringing friends is really important. Something else that like 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:51.640 we've talked about in circles in LA I think is 0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:55.120 like really understanding going in What is the amount of 0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:56.920 risk that you are willing to take entering into these 0:40:56.920 --> 0:41:00.239 spaces I think is extraordinarily important. I think of my 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:04.560 colleagues who were at the UCLA protests earlier during the 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.360 Palestine movement. Yeah, they kind of asked the question like 0:41:07.360 --> 0:41:10.560 they kind of framed it in like green light, yellow light, 0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:14.920 red light, Like in terms of green meaning like I'm 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:18.000 okay with you know, whatever risks might be involved, like 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:19.680 as far as like what my understanding of what this 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:23.320 protest could entail, yellow being like I'm I'm not prepared 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:27.239 to go so far as to be arrested, but I'm 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:31.000 willing to be present on record if necessary, serve as 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:33.520 a witness for my other colleagues who are going to 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:36.839 be in this space. Red meaning you know, I'm not 0:41:36.920 --> 0:41:41.000 necessarily prepared at this point to go that far. I 0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:43.200 don't I want to support, but I also don't want 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:45.360 to get arrested. And I think it's important to like, 0:41:45.480 --> 0:41:48.080 you know, recognize that not necessarily shame other people in 0:41:48.200 --> 0:41:49.440 terms of like where they're at in this. 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:53.440 Yeah, yeah, understand Yeah, absolutely, because because everybody comes at 0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:54.480 this from different places. 0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:56.279 I think it's really important, like when you're in these 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.920 spaces to like, you know, kind of understand the risk 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:02.000 of the other people who are alongside you, because if 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.480 you're a medic and you're trying to treat other people 0:42:04.560 --> 0:42:06.719 and then you have all of a sudden you're by 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:09.040 yourself because the other people are like, well, I you know, 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.080 this is what I sign up for out Yeah, that 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:13.400 is also scary, even if you're you know, you're very 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:14.120 willing to be there. 0:42:14.200 --> 0:42:14.480 Yeah. 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:18.080 So I think just having those conversations and planning more 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:21.400 than anything, planning, planning, and planning is extraordinarily important. 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:22.080 Yeah. 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:25.000 I think that's very well said, great points, and everyone 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:27.080 has a different level of risk. And just to be 0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:30.840 totally clear for our listeners, there was over two thousand 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:35.120 different protests yesterday and there was the minimal amount of 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:39.759 violence and they were all peaceful. For the protesters were 0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:43.960 the vast, vast, vast majority peaceful and things went fine, 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:46.840 and some like the one I attended was actually kid friendly, 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:50.480 so there was it was a safe place. But particularly 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:54.400 in certain places, there's always a small chance, if not large, 0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:57.799 and depending on the police presence there, that things could 0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:01.000 go the wrong way, and it is something to keep 0:43:01.000 --> 0:43:04.839 in mind. So I particularly like your point regarding everyone 0:43:04.880 --> 0:43:06.919 has a different level of risk and that's okay, you're 0:43:06.960 --> 0:43:07.920 still contributing. 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:08.560 I'm not. 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.319 I mean, I'm not a place myself where I'm planning 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:13.840 on getting arrested. That's just not something I want to do. 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:16.040 But I would like to protest that I would like 0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:18.480 to support. 0:43:18.320 --> 0:43:19.880 In along those lines. 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:24.279 What are ways that other people who have medical backgrounds 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:27.520 could potentially contribute or support. 0:43:27.120 --> 0:43:30.480 You in terms of the ways that like medics can 0:43:30.600 --> 0:43:33.120 you know, respond in these situations. I think for me, 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:36.279 I have you know, a box of medical equipment that 0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:39.359 I want to go to bring on site, like I'm 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:42.360 obviously like and said, I'm bringing water because that's going 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:45.120 to be foremost like my most useful tool to help 0:43:45.160 --> 0:43:46.960 anybody who's going to be affected by things like that, 0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:49.080 like to your desk, you know, as far as other 0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:52.280 things like having extra masks, I think is really really important, 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:56.400 you know, because it's a huge way of reducing respiratory 0:43:56.440 --> 0:43:59.480 exposure to the aerosols that are going to be in 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:03.560 the air. And then eye protection, eye protection, eye protection. Now, 0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:07.000 the thing about like, you know, we've seen different types 0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:09.759 of protection for your eyes that are effective. We've seen 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:12.080 goggles being used like the ones that you would you 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.960 would see in a lab. They're not actually effective unless 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:19.400 you close the sides the vents with tape because otherwise 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:22.160 the aerosols actually can still get inside the mask and 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:25.239 irritate your eyes. So if you are going to be 0:44:25.320 --> 0:44:27.160 like bringing that type of eye protection, it's important to 0:44:27.160 --> 0:44:30.640 think about that. There's like some higher end, you know, 0:44:30.760 --> 0:44:34.960 more effective tools that provide both eye protection and helping 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:39.080 to filter particles. Just using a basic goggle mask with 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.560 the vents covered in an N ninety five for just 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:44.719 about anybody, I think is a useful tool. So having 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:46.719 those types of supplies for people who need them is 0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:48.640 helpful for sure. 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:53.160 And as far as like a really low risk thing 0:44:53.360 --> 0:44:56.640 that people with medical training can do is show up 0:44:56.680 --> 0:45:01.000 to jail support, because that's like that is a huge 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:04.320 way you can help not just people who are arrested, 0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:07.400 but anybody coming out of jail is by doing jail support, 0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:11.440 and what that entails is hanging out where people get released. 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:17.840 People will usually bring food, drinks, clothes, shoelaces. People often 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:22.160 get out without shoelaces, belts, and like a couple of 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:25.279 you know, extra layers of clothes if people get let 0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:29.240 out and it's cold, and check out people's injuries. Often 0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:32.640 people will be taken to the hospital during processing if 0:45:32.640 --> 0:45:37.040 they have something that the police can't ignore. But people 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:40.200 often get released with injuries and it can be really 0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:43.480 good to have somebody there who can evaluate them. Honestly, 0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.960 it's often just giving them like a judgment call on 0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:49.000 do you think this needs somebody else to take a 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:51.480 look at it, you know, in a professional environment, or 0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:53.080 can I put some ice on it and go home? 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:57.279 Type thing. And almost everybody getting out of jail has 0:45:57.320 --> 0:46:00.200 handcuff injuries if they were arrested in a mass arrest 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:03.640 because in mass arrest situations, cops tend to use the 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:07.160 plastic zip tizes, which can get incredibly tight, even more 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.799 so than metal handcuffs, which have a little bit a 0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:14.520 little length of chain. They strain the shoulders, especially larger people, 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:18.080 especially if somebody has a bag on their back. Cops 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:20.000 will often cuff them in such a way that the 0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:23.280 bag pushes on their hands and makes the cuffs increasingly tight. 0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:26.719 And having a medical professional or a street medic or 0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:29.520 even somebody who's like just there to like take a 0:46:29.560 --> 0:46:32.200 look and be like, yeah, man, I see that that's 0:46:32.239 --> 0:46:33.879 really fucked up that they did that to you. I'm 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:37.520 so sorry can be useful. Having somebody there to witness 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:40.400 and acknowledge and to document. If somebody is planning on 0:46:40.480 --> 0:46:43.839 doing something with that, you know, then that's important too. 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.840 So if you cannot be arrested, find out what's happening 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:49.840 with jail, support and go support them because that's chill, 0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:53.799 that's calm now. I mean, there are no guarantees in 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:58.160 this world but now, but it is far more likely 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:00.799 to be chill and calm. Yeah, and you can hang 0:47:00.840 --> 0:47:02.960 out and eat snacks. Oh and this is the one 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:08.600 situation where medically speaking, bring cigarettes. People want cigarettes when 0:47:08.600 --> 0:47:12.200 they get out of jail, and they deserve a fucking cigarette. 0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:13.120 Is it good for them? 0:47:13.440 --> 0:47:13.680 No? 0:47:14.280 --> 0:47:16.839 I know, I just am sorry. I hate cigarettes so much. 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:19.200 I listen. I'm not going to say you can't, but 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:22.800 I will never give someone a cigarette. It goes against 0:47:23.920 --> 0:47:28.080 things I just can't listen. There's certain lines I will 0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:30.880 draw as a doctor. One I have to help everybody 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:33.239 even if I don't like them. Two, I can't give 0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:35.760 them cigarettes even if I like them. So I just can't. 0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:37.719 Those are two things I can't bring myself to do. 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:40.000 The cigarette one really adjusts me crazy, but I get it. 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:44.560 In that case, maybe bring some cards for whatever your 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:49.279 local public transit is, or failing that, you know, have 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:51.920 some cash on hand to send people home in a 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:54.399 taxi or have somebody who standing by with a car 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:57.399 to help people get home. Stuff like that that's really 0:47:57.440 --> 0:48:01.000 important for jail support, perhaps even more than a cigarette. 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:03.880 Yeah, I would add that. 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:06.480 Another thing you can do if you're medically like a 0:48:06.680 --> 0:48:09.960 medical professional. Especially it's helped other people learn really big 0:48:10.000 --> 0:48:12.480 sic skills. You don't even have to be at a protest, right, 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:15.080 it could be a week later. There are medical professionals 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:18.040 who do street medic training. You can teach people stop 0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:22.279 the bleed in a day and potentially save someone's life. 0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:25.640 And so if it's something that you you know, are 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:28.400 skilled enough to teach, and you need to be honest 0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:30.560 about whether you're skilled enough to teach that or not, 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:32.600 you know if you've watched a for you YouTube videos 0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:35.960 and you're not, that's something you could use to really 0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:37.759 help other people who are who are going to be 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:39.719 there at a time when you're not comfortable or safe 0:48:39.760 --> 0:48:43.560 being there. I guess for the end of the show 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:46.479 to wrap up, if people are just attending to be 0:48:46.600 --> 0:48:48.359 fucking mad and there are a lot of people who 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:51.400 are fucking mad right now, what should they bring? And 0:48:51.960 --> 0:48:54.799 if people want to access training right like, what are 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:57.680 some some resources that you would suggest. What are some 0:48:58.320 --> 0:49:01.960 types of training in terms of like first aid that 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:05.799 people can access, so that people should access if they're 0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:07.680 the thinking of attending these things and they're worried. 0:49:08.120 --> 0:49:10.560 I mean, I think in terms of the type of 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:13.000 first aid that you need to be really conscious of, 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:15.799 especially in any any type of like event where you're 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:17.279 going to be with a lot of people and you're 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:20.840 going in as a medic. And this isn't just for protests. 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:22.759 I think it's for any type of event. We do 0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:25.600 live in a world where unfortunately there is a lot 0:49:25.640 --> 0:49:29.400 of mass shootings. Even if they're firing rubber bullets, we 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:32.640 don't know who else may also attend, who may also 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:36.880 be going with the intention of being violent, So I 0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:39.400 mean you mentioned it yourself, stopped the bleed. Having basic 0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:43.200 understanding of how to what types of on the field. 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:47.439 First aid should be done. For individuals who have got 0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:51.279 received a gunshot wound, I think is really important if 0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:55.160 they've been struck by a car. We've already seen earlier 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:59.640 this this weekend that there were shootings in I believe 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:03.960 in a couple of different cities. It's I'm missing which 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:06.879 one unfortunately happened, but I do know of at least 0:50:06.960 --> 0:50:10.840 one report of a tesla being driven into a crowd 0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:15.080 of protesters this weekend, So it was, Yeah, if. 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:16.680 I get killed by a tesla, I'm going to be 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:17.640 so fucking mad. 0:50:18.440 --> 0:50:19.240 Indignity. 0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:24.760 That is actually the thing that concerns me the most 0:50:24.920 --> 0:50:29.400 most protest is some actor coming in from outside to 0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:32.239 do something like that. That part really does concern me, 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:35.400 especially because so many of these are, are, like I mentioned, 0:50:35.480 --> 0:50:38.120 kind of family friendly, and they should be. I think 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:39.799 families for the most part, should be able to come 0:50:39.800 --> 0:50:42.360 to these things. So that is something that I'm always 0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:44.160 constantly on the lookout for. 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:49.560 Yeah, cause fucking scammy, like I experienced car bombs in 0:50:49.600 --> 0:50:53.400 my career, but also just like cause. Driving into crowds 0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:59.000 of course undult damage and Americans do be loving large 0:50:59.040 --> 0:51:01.719 cause and the cops won't stop them. 0:51:02.000 --> 0:51:02.880 Like, at least in La. 0:51:03.000 --> 0:51:05.520 My experience with the cars were kind of in and 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:08.080 out the whole time, and that did not make me 0:51:08.120 --> 0:51:08.920 feel secure. 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:11.759 We had one individual who was stood in front of 0:51:11.800 --> 0:51:14.720 a van that was carrying ice agents and that person 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:18.000 essentially got run over them in that situation, I know 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:20.720 they were not at all stopping for. 0:51:20.719 --> 0:51:25.600 That because it's a big risk, Like I guess with 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:28.080 that in mind, one thing I think about sometimes and 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:31.840 these things is like you don't want to be going 0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:34.719 into this, like like traumatizing yourself by doing this. But 0:51:35.360 --> 0:51:38.400 a degree of situational when is to include what are 0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:41.000 my points of cover and what are my ways out? 0:51:41.960 --> 0:51:42.600 Is good to have. 0:51:43.400 --> 0:51:47.480 Yeah, it helps, It helps me feel safeer anyway. 0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:50.200 Yeah, And that's another huge reason to always run with 0:51:50.239 --> 0:51:53.960 a buddy, right because if you're running with a buddy especially, 0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:56.360 I mean I think I personally think that if you 0:51:56.440 --> 0:52:00.000 are doing medical stuff, you should always have a buddy 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:02.239 just because if you're going to be stopped and like 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:04.960 somebody's got to watch your back and like it's and 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:07.200 you know you might need a second opinion. You can 0:52:07.280 --> 0:52:09.920 call in that buddy for a consult. You know, the 0:52:09.960 --> 0:52:12.880 Medic collective that I that I run with On really 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:16.080 big action days, we'll put together like little bingo cards 0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:18.640 that will distribute to all the Medic buddy pairs as 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:22.360 a situational awareness game. So like, if we're all rolling 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:25.560 out to this, you know, to a big, big action, 0:52:25.680 --> 0:52:28.560 we'll put like they'll be squares for like a cop 0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:34.120 who clearly is not awake, or your ex or you know, 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:38.000 a person who forgot sunscreen, or you know, just just 0:52:38.040 --> 0:52:42.160 things to look out for. Yeah, and I think honestly 0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:44.399 like making a little bit of a game like that 0:52:44.880 --> 0:52:46.200 if you're going to be out all day can be 0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:49.560 kind of fun. And it also makes you keep looking. 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:51.640 It makes you not just look down at your feet 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:54.560 as you as you march another mile, you know. 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:55.759 Yeah. 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:59.840 Please, a's another great reminder. Please prepare for the weather, 0:53:00.560 --> 0:53:04.480 prepare for the elements. Bring water, bring sunscreen, bring hats, 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:05.840 all that stuff. 0:53:05.880 --> 0:53:10.480 Sunscreen can trap the chemical irritant next to your skin. 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:13.520 I like to wear a sun hoodie like you can 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:16.920 get hoodies with a SPF. I am a palass person, 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:19.200 right some of you can see. 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:20.960 Me for listeners. It is indeed true. 0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:23.319 I was gonna say, is that sun hoodie? Why you 0:53:23.400 --> 0:53:24.879 in no way have a watch tan? 0:53:25.719 --> 0:53:25.919 Yeah? 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:29.719 Okay, yeah, friends, trends can see my absolutely brutal tan 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:33.400 right now, absurdly white. When I was a bike racer, 0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:35.720 I used to have the logos of my sponsors burned 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:40.120 into my back and that was cool and normal. That's unsettling, 0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:46.200 yeah right, yeah, yeah, that was a political moment for me. Actually, yeah, 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:49.640 I like to wear sun hoodie because sunscreen it can 0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:53.359 trap irritants against your skin. But if it's a creamy kind, right, 0:53:53.680 --> 0:53:55.560 I think after point it absorbs and it doesn't. But 0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:58.840 I've definitely experienced that kind of paste on your skin 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:04.640 kind of situation. Interesting, some of the nalist like injuries 0:54:04.680 --> 0:54:08.480 I've seen have been heat related at protests. If you're 0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:10.879 organizing a protest, don't send it straight up a fucking hill, 0:54:11.239 --> 0:54:14.640 like I just don't let like like go easy on people. 0:54:15.280 --> 0:54:17.279 You know, the people will be bringing a lot of 0:54:17.360 --> 0:54:20.160 stuff and they have science and stuff like the might 0:54:20.280 --> 0:54:22.560 whether comfy shoes, like could go easy on them with 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:25.480 the with the hill climbing, and then because you're doing 0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:27.040 it in the middle of the day often as well, 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:30.000 like you know, don't hurt people, Richard. I know you 0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:31.160 were going to mention somebody else. 0:54:31.440 --> 0:54:34.319 The thing I was trying to mention this is this 0:54:34.400 --> 0:54:38.440 is less so for i'd say ems non physician individuals. Actually, 0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:41.160 before the podcast, I had a chance to talk with 0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:45.320 one of the regional vice presidents for CIR, the Physicians 0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.480 Union that I was formerly a part of when I 0:54:47.520 --> 0:54:47.879 was in my. 0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:49.440 Residency, Kayla. 0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:51.960 She has a lot of experience being involved in protests 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:54.000 and street medicine, and the thing that she likes to 0:54:54.000 --> 0:54:57.360 mention is like, physicians have a tendency to want to 0:54:58.000 --> 0:55:01.280 do a lot in a moment, and so Miry mentioned 0:55:01.320 --> 0:55:05.719 situational awareness. I think situational awareness is extremely important. Being 0:55:05.760 --> 0:55:09.200 able to know when you have the time to do 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:12.600 a certain intervention versus when it's time to get this 0:55:12.680 --> 0:55:15.560 person out of here and to a safer place, I 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:19.439 think is like very very important. Yay, so less does 0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:22.239 more in these situations, is what I would say, is 0:55:22.480 --> 0:55:23.200 pretty important. 0:55:23.400 --> 0:55:24.480 Yeah. Yeah, Well. 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:27.799 The thing I do like as a journalist primarily not 0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:30.719 a visual one, I often work with photographers right as 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.720 a two person team. I have been a photographer protest 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:35.239 in the past, and your world is very small than 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:37.560 that viewfinder, and it's kind of the same. If you're 0:55:37.600 --> 0:55:40.640 helping someone right who's injured, that becomes your whole shit. 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:43.279 I will have my physically have my hand on my 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:46.160 photographer a lot of the time on their back right, 0:55:46.200 --> 0:55:48.160 and if they need to start moving backwards, I am 0:55:48.200 --> 0:55:50.640 going to start moving them backwards. Obviously, you don't want 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:53.440 to leave someone who's hurt, but like if you're the buddy, 0:55:53.680 --> 0:55:56.120 it's good to be that close to the person who's 0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:58.719 providing care so that you can have a way out 0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:00.359 if you need to have a way out. 0:56:00.600 --> 0:56:05.200 This was so incredibly useful and helpful and insightful. We 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:11.040 appreciate both of you coming on. Let's close up here. 0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:14.680 What I would like to do is not only plug 0:56:14.800 --> 0:56:17.759 something for yourselves, but what I'd like to hear and 0:56:17.800 --> 0:56:22.040 our listeners actually enjoy, is to hear something that's bringing 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:30.160 you some joy in these times. Some piece of media, art, film, book, podcast, anything, 0:56:30.239 --> 0:56:32.759 you name it, a good restaurant that you really love. 0:56:33.200 --> 0:56:35.200 You want to give a shout out to whatever it is, 0:56:35.200 --> 0:56:37.080 something that's bringing you a little bit of joy. So 0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:40.440 let's do those two things. Marian, Let's start with you. 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:43.840 What can we plug and what's something that's bringing you 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:44.360 some joy? 0:56:45.160 --> 0:56:48.719 So thank you for having me on. This was delightful. 0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:53.359 So I will plug Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which 0:56:53.400 --> 0:56:55.920 is the collective that I'm a part of. You can 0:56:55.960 --> 0:57:00.280 find us at Tangled Wilderness on Blue Sky and Instagram 0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:03.640 and nowhere else. And we have a website which is 0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:06.600 Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have a Patreon, all 0:57:06.600 --> 0:57:08.480 that stuff. But the main thing I want to tell 0:57:08.480 --> 0:57:11.279 you about those guys over there is that James and 0:57:11.320 --> 0:57:14.719 I did a podcast recently for the show Lives Like 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:17.760 the World is Dying on protest health and safety, and 0:57:17.800 --> 0:57:22.160 we go really in detail on specifics of gear, specifics 0:57:22.160 --> 0:57:25.439 of first aid techniques, and I think people should maybe 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:27.680 check it out if they're if they're going to be 0:57:27.720 --> 0:57:28.160 out there. 0:57:28.480 --> 0:57:30.440 We'll put it in the show note. 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:35.200 Yeah, because we're professional podcasters like that. 0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:37.640 You can crazy on it to make it happen here 0:57:37.680 --> 0:57:39.080 if you'd like to find the show notes. 0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:42.880 Right. Wait, Miriam, So what's the thing that's bringing you joy? Oh? 0:57:43.320 --> 0:57:44.919 I have remember that, Joey. 0:57:45.160 --> 0:57:50.439 I'm familiar with the concept. I have been rewatching the 0:57:50.800 --> 0:57:53.520 Shira and the Princesses of Power cartoon. 0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:57.760 Wow, nice, love it. What about Jim? She is outrageous. 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:01.400 You know they didn't read make that as an overtly 0:58:01.800 --> 0:58:06.320 queer Netflix series, so I have had less exposure to it. 0:58:08.200 --> 0:58:12.360 But you know, cartoon sword lesbians can't argue with it. 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:16.200 Yeah, that sounds pretty awesome, all right, Rachel? What about you? 0:58:16.600 --> 0:58:20.720 As far as something to plug, A huge pleasure of 0:58:20.760 --> 0:58:23.800 being able to work on Blue Sky helping to put 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:28.360 together the med Sky feeds. So if you're on Blue Sky, 0:58:28.720 --> 0:58:30.840 be sure to subscribe to our labeler so that way 0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:35.000 you can get your medical specialty on your accounts and 0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:38.040 you can get your posts on one of our forty 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:41.880 different feeds. And then also as a Latino, I can't 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:45.800 leave the podcast without mentioning also we are working on 0:58:45.960 --> 0:58:53.560 Latin Sky and it's the amount of latinidad and joy 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:56.120 that I've been seeing on that feed over the last 0:58:56.120 --> 0:59:01.240 few days, despite the pain, it's been very inspiring. So 0:59:01.320 --> 0:59:03.560 I think that's like the plug that I want to 0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:05.800 put out there. And as far as the thing that 0:59:06.040 --> 0:59:09.240 brings me joy right now, I like I was torn. 0:59:10.040 --> 0:59:12.040 I heard it like a bunch of people have already plugged, 0:59:12.080 --> 0:59:12.640 and or so. 0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:15.080 I'm not gonna plug, and or you can. 0:59:14.960 --> 0:59:17.680 You Yeah, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna give some 0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:21.120 love to Ryan Coogler's Sinners, which. 0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:24.120 Is easily one of them movies. 0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:27.240 I have seen in at least the last five years. 0:59:27.280 --> 0:59:31.680 It is an extraordinary movie. Every everything about that movie. 0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:32.560 Is like art. 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:35.960 I just hope that Ryan Cooler can just make original 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:38.960 movies for the rest of his life and that he 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:42.280 doesn't have to like be stuck doing franchise stuff, because 0:59:42.360 --> 0:59:46.080 when he's just given a canvas, he he makes beautiful, 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:46.760 beautiful art. 0:59:47.440 --> 0:59:49.000 Yeah, right on, right on. 0:59:49.520 --> 0:59:55.320 That's for so James, what about what about you? 0:59:55.440 --> 0:59:58.480 What we plug? What can you plug? For you? What 0:59:58.520 --> 0:59:59.200 can I plug? 0:59:59.720 --> 1:00:01.640 That was a hot dog guy who went on the 1:00:01.640 --> 1:00:04.560 freeway in Los Angeles when everyone else went on the freeway. 1:00:04.720 --> 1:00:08.360 So that person's a fucking hero. I would let you 1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:10.600 know if you're if you're in the I'm vegan, so 1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:14.120 you know, maybe the bun. But for the rest of you, 1:00:14.160 --> 1:00:17.400 get after it. You know you can. You can listen 1:00:17.480 --> 1:00:20.760 to my podcast. You may be already are It could 1:00:20.800 --> 1:00:23.960 happen here if you haven't listened. It would mean a 1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:26.000 lot to me if you had listened to the podcast 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:29.520 I made in the Daddian Gap last year when I 1:00:29.560 --> 1:00:32.240 traveled with migrants who were on their way to the 1:00:32.280 --> 1:00:35.080 United States. Those people and those their stories are really 1:00:35.120 --> 1:00:37.920 important to me. So if you would listen to one 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:40.320 thing I ever made, it would be that you can 1:00:40.400 --> 1:00:44.720 find it by searching Dadien where Dreams Die, and then 1:00:44.760 --> 1:00:47.480 it could happen here podcast and it will come up 1:00:47.760 --> 1:00:50.240 unless you're using a really shit search engine a Google 1:00:50.240 --> 1:00:53.000 has been even more fucked by AI. And then, in 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:55.920 terms of stuff that gives me joy, recently, I have 1:00:56.040 --> 1:00:59.920 been listening to like the music of the anti apartheid movement. Again, 1:01:00.480 --> 1:01:02.920 I kind of when I was a very young person, 1:01:03.600 --> 1:01:07.400 my sort of first exposure to activism was through people 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:10.320 who had resisted apartheid in South Africa, and they were 1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:12.360 very inspiring to me, and they still are very inspiring 1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:15.040 to me. I listened to that music with them, right, 1:01:15.400 --> 1:01:18.000 Like apartheid, to be clear, ended when I was eight 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:21.280 years old, but like it was cool because it seemed 1:01:21.360 --> 1:01:24.479 like at that point the good guys were winning, right, 1:01:24.760 --> 1:01:29.440 and so here we fucking are Anyway, I listened to 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:30.040 that because it. 1:01:30.000 --> 1:01:32.600 Reminds me that they always lose in the end. 1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:35.840 So yeah, I enjoy like like the Specials and Eddie 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:39.280 Grant and even the incredibly eclectic sun City album. 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:41.080 Great choices, Great choices. 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.920 And for if you happen to be listening on the 1:01:43.960 --> 1:01:48.360 House of Pod, you've heard James come and talk about 1:01:48.400 --> 1:01:53.320 the Darien Gap. That was a really amazing story and 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:55.800 it resonated with a lot of listeners, and you should 1:01:55.800 --> 1:01:59.480 listen to the full multi part series that he put 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:02.680 out on that if it's so much better, So please 1:02:02.800 --> 1:02:06.000 do that for me. If you happen to be listening 1:02:06.040 --> 1:02:08.400 on it could happen here. Listen to the House of Pod. 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:08.960 You like it. 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:11.280 You'll hear James and lots of people you already know 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:14.760 love and meet some new people. And you'll hear us 1:02:14.760 --> 1:02:17.560 make fun of medical grifters in the wellness community and 1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:18.120 that sort of. 1:02:18.080 --> 1:02:22.080 Thing as well members of the Cabinet. And I can't 1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:25.560 believe it. Yeah boy. 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:29.760 As for the thing that's bringing me joy, I recently 1:02:29.880 --> 1:02:34.000 had a chance to expose my kids on a long 1:02:34.120 --> 1:02:39.240 drive to the work of Jeff Buckley, who is for 1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:42.040 you younger listeners out there, you may not know who he 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:45.320 was because he unfortunately passed away when he was only thirty. 1:02:45.400 --> 1:02:48.360 But he was really a once in a generation talent 1:02:48.880 --> 1:02:53.160 who was a voice. His songwriting transcended different genres. There 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:56.880 was rock, there's jazz, there was folk. He could span 1:02:57.040 --> 1:03:01.160 a vocal range that just really is amazing. And you 1:03:01.280 --> 1:03:04.680 only had one studio album, Grace, but it is amazing 1:03:04.840 --> 1:03:08.680 and highly recommend that or really any of his live album's, 1:03:08.760 --> 1:03:12.560 Mystery White Boy, They're all fantastic. His cover of Leonard 1:03:12.560 --> 1:03:15.720 Cohen's Hallelujah is the best version of it in my opinion. 1:03:15.960 --> 1:03:18.360 I will fight you. I will fight you. If you 1:03:18.440 --> 1:03:22.320 say rufus waynewright better, I will physically fight you. So 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:25.760 it's just raw and beautiful and I hope you guys 1:03:25.840 --> 1:03:28.680 check it out if you haven't already. Last thing I 1:03:28.800 --> 1:03:30.960 will plug June twenty eighth, if you happen to be 1:03:31.120 --> 1:03:33.760 in the Bay Area, my band will be playing at 1:03:33.880 --> 1:03:36.160 the Hotel Utah in San Francisco. It is one of 1:03:36.240 --> 1:03:39.360 my favorite places to watch or play music and it's 1:03:39.360 --> 1:03:41.800 just super fun. Come up and say hi, and we'll 1:03:41.880 --> 1:03:43.560 chat and we'll maybe share a drink. 1:03:43.400 --> 1:03:46.919 If we have time. Okay, thank you all so much. 1:03:47.200 --> 1:03:49.440 Thanks James. This was fun. Huh, Yeah, that was fun. 1:03:49.520 --> 1:03:52.080 It was beautiful. I had a nice time. Let's do 1:03:52.120 --> 1:03:52.439 it again. 1:03:52.520 --> 1:04:18.360 Okay, bye, hello, and welcome to it could happen here. 1:04:18.960 --> 1:04:21.760 I'm here once again with it's James again. 1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:23.680 Great to talk to you again, James. 1:04:24.080 --> 1:04:25.760 Yeah, likewise, glad to be here. 1:04:26.240 --> 1:04:28.600 You know, I spend a lot of time thinking about 1:04:28.600 --> 1:04:31.000 the world and how it works and all that jazz, 1:04:31.040 --> 1:04:31.320 and I. 1:04:31.320 --> 1:04:32.360 Assume you do as well. 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:36.080 I do, yeah, yeah, increasingly worrying about the word. 1:04:37.920 --> 1:04:38.120 Yeah. 1:04:38.160 --> 1:04:42.280 This place, this home is quite the puzzle. And much 1:04:42.440 --> 1:04:45.480 like a puzzle, it has been carved up and divided 1:04:45.680 --> 1:04:49.360 in so many different ways, sliced, labeled, ranked, and measured 1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:52.320 from all kinds of different angles. And that's really what 1:04:52.360 --> 1:04:55.960 I'm interested in talking about today, the different ways that 1:04:56.040 --> 1:04:58.760 we try to explain the differences we see on the 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:03.640 global stage. So going from the concept of civilized and primitive, 1:05:04.280 --> 1:05:07.560 to the East and West binary, to the imagined communities 1:05:07.640 --> 1:05:12.120 called nations, to the clash of quote unquote civilizations, to 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:14.720 the concept of first, second, and third worlds, to the 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:17.560 development spectrum, to the global North and global South, then 1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:19.960 finally to the core and the periphery. So we have 1:05:20.000 --> 1:05:22.000 a lot of ground to cover in this episode. 1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:25.480 Yeah, I really like this stuff. Like as a historian, 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:30.560 like we're always kind of forced into certain divisions, right, 1:05:30.640 --> 1:05:33.560 Like even when you apply to you to your funding, 1:05:33.680 --> 1:05:37.840 right like you're normally in like a geographical area, or 1:05:38.000 --> 1:05:42.600 like you're trying to shoehorn something that's just interesting into 1:05:42.680 --> 1:05:45.200 one of these boxes that gets funding. And I think 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.040 like often that impacts how we see the world, so 1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:50.040 we have to write with that goal. 1:05:50.480 --> 1:05:55.880 Absolutely absolutely. I find the way that we approach the 1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:59.240 telling of history so fascinating And in another life maybe 1:05:59.320 --> 1:06:01.000 I would have been historia. 1:06:01.240 --> 1:06:04.640 I never I can recommend it. Yeah, yeah, it's I 1:06:04.720 --> 1:06:07.360 enjoy the doing of history. It's the doing of academia 1:06:07.400 --> 1:06:08.520 that I don't enjoy so much. 1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:11.960 So I suppose as a historian, I'm going to ask 1:06:12.040 --> 1:06:17.600 you a discomforting question. Great, would you consider yourself civilized 1:06:17.800 --> 1:06:18.440 or primitive? 1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:20.480 Oh? That's a fun one. 1:06:21.640 --> 1:06:26.240 I don't know, Like I don't like that binary because 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:29.240 I think it's it's a value statement, right, And I think, 1:06:29.280 --> 1:06:32.960 like James Scott talks about this, Actually this is a 1:06:33.000 --> 1:06:36.280 really interesting I've had this. James Scott right talks about 1:06:36.280 --> 1:06:38.760 the idea of people who exist outside of the state 1:06:38.840 --> 1:06:42.000 being labeled as primitive by the state. It's in the 1:06:42.080 --> 1:06:44.600 art of not being governed, and that that's sort of 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:48.840 the narrative there. The inherent message is that the state 1:06:48.960 --> 1:06:51.760 is the final and superior form of human organizing and 1:06:51.840 --> 1:06:55.720 people who have chosen to exist outside it are not 1:06:55.880 --> 1:06:58.520 because they chose to, but because they haven't made it 1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:01.320 there yet. And of course Scott problematized that suggests that 1:07:01.400 --> 1:07:03.800 maybe it's a choice, not a failure to accede to 1:07:03.880 --> 1:07:08.080 that civilization. And it's a concept that like young Burmese 1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:11.760 fighters have echoed back to me, I don't. 1:07:11.560 --> 1:07:12.760 Think they're aware of James C. 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:16.600 Scott if I'm being honest, but they they will say 1:07:16.640 --> 1:07:18.760 to me, like when, because when they left the cities 1:07:18.880 --> 1:07:23.640 to live with the ethnic revolutionary organizations there, they had 1:07:23.680 --> 1:07:26.760 always been told that the reason those people lived outside 1:07:26.760 --> 1:07:29.320 of the Burmese state was because they were primitive, violent, 1:07:29.960 --> 1:07:32.400 But then they came to live and fight alongside them, 1:07:32.480 --> 1:07:35.320 and they were like, no, these are a family. They 1:07:35.320 --> 1:07:37.800 were brothers and sisters and siblings, and like they want 1:07:37.840 --> 1:07:41.800 the same thing as us, Like they're not primitive, they 1:07:41.920 --> 1:07:44.520 just don't want the state. So I guess in that sense, 1:07:44.560 --> 1:07:47.120 I would want to be labeled as primitive too. I 1:07:47.160 --> 1:07:49.560 think the primitive people are doing cool shit and then 1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:50.840 the civilized people are not. 1:07:51.640 --> 1:07:54.040 Yeah, yeah, I mean that's one of I think one 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:56.440 of the one you're in Global binary is one of 1:07:56.480 --> 1:07:59.480 the oldest. Yeah, you'd hear that sign of that kind 1:07:59.480 --> 1:08:04.000 of just position or civilized and primitive or civilized and barbarians. 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:04.640 Yeah. 1:08:04.680 --> 1:08:07.400 You know, in ancient Rome you see that distinction between 1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:11.000 the civilized Roman citizens and the barbarian other. 1:08:11.280 --> 1:08:11.520 Yeah. 1:08:11.760 --> 1:08:14.240 And in that instance, and in a lot of instance, 1:08:14.280 --> 1:08:16.680 it's just used as this ideological tool. 1:08:17.120 --> 1:08:20.120 Just at superiority. Definitely. Yeah. 1:08:20.560 --> 1:08:23.640 Like, I think we have to be really careful as 1:08:23.720 --> 1:08:27.759 his story about these assumptions that we make. It's always 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:30.200 we love to make a lot of assumptions about revolutions too, 1:08:30.720 --> 1:08:34.160 And I would wager that I've attended more revolutions and 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:36.720 many of my academic colleagues, and I think many of 1:08:36.720 --> 1:08:39.320 those are grounded in the truths that people accept as 1:08:39.320 --> 1:08:41.800 truths without ever testing them. And like, I think this 1:08:41.880 --> 1:08:44.200 sort of civilized barbarian one, it's kind of the same 1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:44.640 like that. 1:08:45.000 --> 1:08:46.760 Yeah, it's a classic one. I mean, do you know 1:08:46.760 --> 1:08:49.000 where the word barbarian even comes from. 1:08:49.200 --> 1:08:51.559 Isn't it the language thing? Like, because I didn't speak 1:08:51.640 --> 1:08:54.200 is it Latin? They were just going like bar ba? 1:08:54.720 --> 1:08:55.160 Is that right? 1:08:55.880 --> 1:08:58.120 Yeah, it's because of what you know, Rome did this 1:08:58.360 --> 1:09:00.880 all the time, where they just borrowed, will say, from 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:04.960 what the Greeks were doing. Yeah, so in Greek, barbaros 1:09:05.000 --> 1:09:08.360 meant anyone who did not speak Greek. Okay, as the 1:09:08.439 --> 1:09:12.000 Romans just kind of took that and expanded to talk 1:09:12.000 --> 1:09:15.080 about anybody who wasn't on their whole wave of urban 1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:19.200 planning and you know, codified legal systems, the philosophy, the 1:09:19.320 --> 1:09:21.559 education they are at, all of that stuff. 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:22.040 Yeah. 1:09:22.120 --> 1:09:26.120 Yeah, the Barbarians didn't have those those refinements, right, Yeah, 1:09:26.120 --> 1:09:28.960 you know, but of course the relationship between the two 1:09:29.080 --> 1:09:33.439 is not so simple, right because the later on in 1:09:33.600 --> 1:09:38.200 Roman history, as you'd know, Barbarians quote unquote were incorporated 1:09:38.280 --> 1:09:42.800 slowly into the state and became very useful armies and 1:09:42.840 --> 1:09:44.840 a reserve full of labor and all these different things 1:09:44.840 --> 1:09:47.080 for what Roman was trying to do with the expantship. 1:09:47.479 --> 1:09:51.519 Yeah, and luckily contemporary American right has been very normal 1:09:51.640 --> 1:09:54.920 about that, and it isn't using that for like it's 1:09:54.960 --> 1:09:57.160 sort of eugenic eugenic agenda right now. 1:09:57.720 --> 1:10:00.679 Yeah, very very much eugenics VI these days. 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:04.400 Yeah, where my father lives is right on the border 1:10:04.439 --> 1:10:08.240 between England and Scotland and you can visit Hadrian's Wall. 1:10:08.400 --> 1:10:09.960 I rode my bike all along it a couple of 1:10:10.040 --> 1:10:10.719 years ago. 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:11.599 Oh yeah. 1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:16.040 It's like a fun edge of empire kind of thought experiment, 1:10:16.200 --> 1:10:19.880 like you beyond this line of the barbarians or uncivilized 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:24.240 people today, it's like unremarkable, like like it's literally it 1:10:24.439 --> 1:10:27.040 keeps some people sheep in their fields at points along. 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:30.759 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:34.160 Yeah, like some stones kind of piled on top of 1:10:34.200 --> 1:10:37.240 each other and it's kind of an unremarkable novelty. But 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:39.120 it's funny to think that at one point there was 1:10:39.160 --> 1:10:43.520 this binary world, right and they felt that the outside 1:10:43.680 --> 1:10:45.799 was so dangerous to them that they had to provide 1:10:45.840 --> 1:10:48.960 a physical barrier, something we're still doing. 1:10:49.240 --> 1:10:52.080 Indeed, and as we're speaking of walls, by the way, 1:10:52.160 --> 1:10:55.880 this reminds me of another major empire where this sort 1:10:55.880 --> 1:10:58.200 of dichotomy was a curtain. You know, it wasn't just 1:10:58.240 --> 1:11:02.040 taking place in the Mediterranean bull you had and of 1:11:02.080 --> 1:11:03.240 course ancient China. 1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:05.679 This whole identity. 1:11:05.320 --> 1:11:09.920 Constructed around these moral and cultural and political ideals. 1:11:10.240 --> 1:11:11.000 Of course, you had the. 1:11:10.960 --> 1:11:14.720 Whole Confucianism, Taoism, a legalist thought all shape and what 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:18.640 it meant to be, you know, conducting yourself properly and 1:11:18.680 --> 1:11:21.800 in a civilized manner. And so those who did not 1:11:22.040 --> 1:11:24.720 ascribe to those ideals would have been people who were 1:11:24.800 --> 1:11:28.519 labeled barbarians, often the people on the other side of 1:11:28.720 --> 1:11:29.360 the Great Wall. 1:11:30.040 --> 1:11:33.680 Yeah, we are the United States is literally doing the 1:11:33.840 --> 1:11:38.000 exact same thing, right, Like we're building a giant wall 1:11:38.040 --> 1:11:41.000 and labeling other ring the people on the other side 1:11:41.000 --> 1:11:41.200 of it. 1:11:41.640 --> 1:11:44.320 Yeah, you definitely see the genealogy there. Yeah, but I 1:11:44.320 --> 1:11:47.360 think there's a closer genealogy we could draw upon for 1:11:47.439 --> 1:11:52.320 that particular reference, though, which is how later European empires 1:11:52.360 --> 1:11:57.720 would appropriate the Roman civilized Baberian binary to justify their 1:11:57.920 --> 1:12:01.080 assimilation and extermination and colonialism. 1:12:01.320 --> 1:12:04.960 Definitely one of the things I I like to do, 1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:07.280 even with the you know, the United States and it's 1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:10.840 in formal empire, right, Like I love to show my 1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:17.439 students cartoons, like political cartoons, like there's one of the 1:12:17.479 --> 1:12:20.200 White Man's Burden, which like distill. 1:12:19.880 --> 1:12:21.960 You know, sometimes the picture is worth a thousand words. 1:12:21.960 --> 1:12:26.320 But it distills that whole binary so well in it 1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:30.840 in a way that seems like repugnant to most of 1:12:30.880 --> 1:12:33.479 my students today. I guess, I don't know, maybe maybe 1:12:33.520 --> 1:12:37.760 folks are moving back that way, but like the imagery 1:12:37.800 --> 1:12:41.160 and the distinction between the way or even like Lewis 1:12:41.200 --> 1:12:43.559 and Clark when they're addressing the indigenous people they meet 1:12:43.560 --> 1:12:46.839 and calling them children, right like like this this binary 1:12:46.880 --> 1:12:51.439 distinction is so it's so apparent, and like, I don't know, 1:12:51.640 --> 1:12:56.000 it seems so outlandish, I think to most folks today, maybe, 1:12:56.000 --> 1:12:58.479 but then we do similar things, I guess in uh, 1:12:59.000 --> 1:13:02.439 you know, it just slightly most subtle ways sometimes. 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:04.160 Yeah, exactly. I mean when you look at what was 1:13:04.200 --> 1:13:09.000 taking place with the Enlightenment and that whole development of 1:13:09.760 --> 1:13:13.080 this particular order, it's deeped in these particular values with 1:13:13.200 --> 1:13:16.800 the European culture was the ideal standard, and everything that 1:13:16.880 --> 1:13:21.040 did not measure up to that standard was barbarical. Primative 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:25.000 is just that has never really gone away, you know, 1:13:25.080 --> 1:13:28.800 and it continues to be used to justify the domination 1:13:29.080 --> 1:13:32.840 of Western powers, particularly in the way that they've instilled 1:13:32.880 --> 1:13:37.840 these European norms and practices across the world when it 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:40.600 comes to things like relation to the land, when it 1:13:40.600 --> 1:13:45.920 comes to things like the divisions between people, between genders, 1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:51.560 all these things, all these attitudes that are now so widespread, 1:13:52.000 --> 1:13:57.479 originated from in part, this elevation of one above the other. 1:13:58.920 --> 1:14:01.880 And speaking of I mentioned that we'd western there, and 1:14:01.920 --> 1:14:06.800 that's really another way that we've sort of maintained this 1:14:06.960 --> 1:14:10.800 binary in a different course of pain, although it's not 1:14:11.000 --> 1:14:15.760 quite the same. So there's this sort of lingering framework 1:14:16.960 --> 1:14:19.000 of the notion of the East and the west. Right 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:23.280 in the ancient times, it was China versus Rome. These 1:14:23.360 --> 1:14:26.560 days it's probably China versus America. 1:14:27.800 --> 1:14:28.960 China really is that old? 1:14:29.560 --> 1:14:34.040 Yeah, yeah, and okay, this is probably a very probably 1:14:34.160 --> 1:14:36.680 very gen z reference for me to make. But I 1:14:36.720 --> 1:14:39.759 don't know if you've seen these edits circulated on social 1:14:39.760 --> 1:14:47.799 media of the Chinese president Chichin Ping going like buzzer Beijing, 1:14:48.240 --> 1:14:51.800 and then there's like a whole bunch of like skyscrapers 1:14:51.840 --> 1:14:56.800 and like like hardcore like electronic music edited to show 1:14:56.880 --> 1:14:59.200 like all these advanced ones, and people in the comments 1:14:59.200 --> 1:15:03.080 are saying things like be China do nothing win. 1:15:05.600 --> 1:15:07.040 I have not seen those. 1:15:07.520 --> 1:15:12.519 Yeah, yeah, that's definitely dating me a little bit in 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:16.719 terms of my social media diet. But yeah, just seeing 1:15:17.560 --> 1:15:21.479 the dynamic between China, or between the East and the West, 1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:24.680 the Orient and the Occident, to use an older term, 1:15:24.760 --> 1:15:27.840 it's just another way that we've created this sort of 1:15:28.080 --> 1:15:31.720 boundary between people that either on one side or the other, 1:15:32.240 --> 1:15:34.280 there's a necessary tension between the two. 1:15:35.320 --> 1:15:35.559 You know. 1:15:36.000 --> 1:15:39.360 This concept of the Orient and Orientalism is something that 1:15:39.600 --> 1:15:44.240 would side identified famously as something that was constructed by 1:15:44.320 --> 1:15:50.120 the West as an exotic, irrational, decadent, and dangerous place. 1:15:51.120 --> 1:15:53.639 And so that whole dualistic narrative was then put into 1:15:53.640 --> 1:15:58.479 the imperial project to legitimizet domination and to position the 1:15:58.520 --> 1:16:01.320 East as a passive subject without a voice of their 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:05.880 own and constant need of Western intervention and guidance. So 1:16:05.880 --> 1:16:09.000 this West becomes this sort of stage for modernity and 1:16:09.080 --> 1:16:12.000 science and region and progress, this whole idea of the 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:18.680 protagonist of history and the orients the East. They're the primitive, 1:16:19.160 --> 1:16:23.320 I guess, side of that binary. Although unlike the civilized 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:26.840 primitive binary or civilized barbarian binnary of old I think 1:16:27.360 --> 1:16:30.000 while there could have been racial components to it in 1:16:30.040 --> 1:16:34.560 the past, this one is more explicitly racial and geographic 1:16:34.680 --> 1:16:38.439 in its division, because I mean, in ancient Rome, anybody 1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:41.920 could essentially become a Roman citizen. You know, it wasn't 1:16:41.920 --> 1:16:46.680 necessarily racially, you know, pure area and sense that a 1:16:46.680 --> 1:16:48.960 lot of New Nazis and stuff today like to look 1:16:49.000 --> 1:16:52.800 back at that period as you had a quieter diversity 1:16:52.920 --> 1:16:58.120 of phenotypes in the Roman Empire. But you know, when 1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:01.360 you come to this orient and occident dichotomy, it's it's 1:17:01.479 --> 1:17:03.519 very much racialized. You know, a lot of times when 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:07.320 people talk about the Western Wold, it really tends to 1:17:07.400 --> 1:17:10.400 be I guess a more politically correct way of seeing 1:17:10.439 --> 1:17:12.799 the White Wold. Yes, at least in my observation. 1:17:13.120 --> 1:17:16.680 Yeah, yeah, definitely that's often the subtext. 1:17:16.600 --> 1:17:19.000 Because I mean that's something I've always struggled with, pin 1:17:19.080 --> 1:17:22.080 and down right, because why isn't Brazil considered part of 1:17:22.120 --> 1:17:25.040 the West? You know, why isn't Mexico considered part of 1:17:25.040 --> 1:17:25.439 the West? 1:17:25.760 --> 1:17:25.960 Right? 1:17:26.000 --> 1:17:29.920 What will we west of? Like? Like what it's not 1:17:29.960 --> 1:17:32.960 even it's not the Western hemisphere like as you say. 1:17:32.960 --> 1:17:35.200 Yeah, I mean Western Fami to say is more straightforward, 1:17:35.240 --> 1:17:37.920 but is it? Because there are too many colored people 1:17:39.120 --> 1:17:41.040 in Mexico and in Brazil. 1:17:41.240 --> 1:17:44.640 It seems to be, right, like, it's not even countries 1:17:44.720 --> 1:17:49.240 strongly from Western Europe was strongly impacted by settler colonialism 1:17:49.280 --> 1:17:54.120 from Western Europe. Because the entirety of Latin America is impact. 1:17:53.840 --> 1:17:55.400 And they should be included, but they're not. 1:17:55.520 --> 1:17:56.000 That they're not. 1:17:56.200 --> 1:17:59.640 Yeah, yeah, and it yeah, it's I've always struggled with 1:17:59.640 --> 1:18:03.680 that one. Other than the neoliberal, capitalist white countries. It's 1:18:04.040 --> 1:18:05.880 it's it's what people don't want to say. 1:18:06.120 --> 1:18:12.960 And Japan sometimes yeah yeah, Japan, yeah yeah, Amber of 1:18:13.000 --> 1:18:13.720 the Club. 1:18:13.720 --> 1:18:17.320 Yeah, or like sometimes also not Spain. This is a 1:18:17.320 --> 1:18:19.559 particular like bug Bury, I guess of Spanish history. 1:18:19.680 --> 1:18:21.000 Really, I don't think I've seen enough one. 1:18:21.240 --> 1:18:23.920 Yeah, for years, like literally you would be excluded from 1:18:23.920 --> 1:18:28.320 European history, like like Africa starts at the Pyrenees. 1:18:28.479 --> 1:18:31.800 It's a sort of phrase that needs to be used. Hilarious. 1:18:31.920 --> 1:18:35.160 Yeah, Like I guess it compounded because Spain was so 1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:38.599 isolated under Franco, right, but like, yeah, that this they 1:18:38.640 --> 1:18:40.800 called it the black legend that like Spain does not 1:18:40.920 --> 1:18:44.760 belong to Europe and and it's not again it's racialized, right, 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:50.479 it's because Spain had this exchange with the Muslim world right, 1:18:50.520 --> 1:18:54.200 and like that that culture deeply impacted Spanish culture. And 1:18:54.400 --> 1:18:58.559 even after the Conquista, it's like it's like you know, 1:18:59.000 --> 1:19:01.200 the French historian, so we're just like, nah, you guys 1:19:01.240 --> 1:19:03.880 are tainted, like you, you don't get to come back. 1:19:04.840 --> 1:19:07.600 It's kind of a similar situation with the territory. So 1:19:07.720 --> 1:19:11.120 the former Artoman Empire as well, technically part of Europe 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:14.320 and yet you know, maligned in some way. 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:17.640 Yeah, yeah, a little bit less than Still, it's like 1:19:17.960 --> 1:19:21.639 you'll have too much, too much Turkish to watch Muslim influence. 1:19:21.720 --> 1:19:23.960 You all got a. 1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:26.439 Yeah, you need like a thousand years to decompress before 1:19:26.439 --> 1:19:27.200 we let you back in. 1:19:27.760 --> 1:19:27.920 Yeah. 1:19:27.960 --> 1:19:32.280 I mean honestly, if the Pope wasn't based in Italy, 1:19:32.720 --> 1:19:35.360 I'm sure Italy would have a similar dynamic. I mean, 1:19:35.400 --> 1:19:37.760 Italy is a recent construction, right in terms of as 1:19:37.840 --> 1:19:40.840 a country. Ye, but only look at the two Sicilies 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:45.760 for example, that was under North African rule for a 1:19:45.800 --> 1:19:59.720 significant period of its history. But let me not get 1:20:00.280 --> 1:20:03.679 too far off track. One way, we're one more tangent, 1:20:03.880 --> 1:20:07.840 and that is I'm far from being a Dungist by 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:10.839 any means, or a Maurist or anything of that nature. 1:20:11.720 --> 1:20:17.880 But there is something to be said for the way 1:20:18.439 --> 1:20:23.040 that the East of the Orient has been sidelined, marginalized, 1:20:23.120 --> 1:20:26.439 treat it us lesser than for so long, and now 1:20:26.439 --> 1:20:30.559 they're at a point where their geopolitical sway has to 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:31.240 be respected. 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:33.200 Yeah, I'm not. 1:20:33.320 --> 1:20:36.040 Rooting for them by any means. I'm not one of 1:20:36.080 --> 1:20:39.920 those people is like, yeah, multipolar world. I would rather 1:20:39.960 --> 1:20:42.120 we have no poles, you know, as an anarchist. 1:20:42.760 --> 1:20:44.160 Yeah, yeah, I do know what you mean. 1:20:44.720 --> 1:20:46.920 But it's like it's a bit of shodding for it, 1:20:47.000 --> 1:20:47.360 I guess. 1:20:47.600 --> 1:20:50.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, you know, ironic in a 1:20:51.320 --> 1:20:54.720 but yeah, not necessarily in a good way. Like I've 1:20:54.760 --> 1:20:59.040 just seen Ji Jimping meeting with Minan Plang, the dictator 1:20:59.080 --> 1:21:01.960 of Miamma today, and I'm like, I'm not excited for 1:21:02.040 --> 1:21:03.440 that pole of the world. 1:21:03.840 --> 1:21:06.120 Not at all, not at all. Yeah. 1:21:06.680 --> 1:21:11.240 I feel the same way about the way that the 1:21:11.280 --> 1:21:15.759 Sahel Federation has kind of kicked out France. I'm like, yeah, 1:21:16.000 --> 1:21:21.200 stickt to France. But also military huinteras. 1:21:20.439 --> 1:21:24.759 You know, Yeah, yeah, like the rebranded Wagner Core now. 1:21:24.760 --> 1:21:28.240 Like yeah, and the the collaboration close collaborations Russia. But 1:21:28.280 --> 1:21:30.080 you know, a lot of this thing is really a 1:21:30.160 --> 1:21:35.400 lot of these relationships, these geopistical relationships are so opportunistic. 1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:38.160 It's all opportunistsm Yeah. End of the day, they don't 1:21:38.160 --> 1:21:41.200 really they're not really necessarily guided by principles. 1:21:41.600 --> 1:21:45.479 Yeah, like the difference I guess between like, for instance, 1:21:45.520 --> 1:21:47.479 I you know, I've been thinking a lot about anarchist 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:49.280 at war, right, and people go and fight in other 1:21:49.320 --> 1:21:52.720 people's to depend other people, right, like like the the 1:21:52.720 --> 1:21:54.760 people who went to Rajava to fight, people who went 1:21:54.760 --> 1:21:57.880 to Mima to fight. Like there's a difference between doing 1:21:57.880 --> 1:22:00.000 something out of a sense of solidarity and doing something 1:22:00.080 --> 1:22:04.120 get root opportunitiesm And like that always shows itself in 1:22:04.160 --> 1:22:04.519 the end. 1:22:05.320 --> 1:22:05.559 Yeah. 1:22:05.600 --> 1:22:08.200 I mean the Wagon Group's involvement in Africa is the 1:22:08.200 --> 1:22:11.679 most blatant capitalists dravn opportunism. 1:22:11.880 --> 1:22:15.560 Yeah. These people are not there for the anti colonials 1:22:15.600 --> 1:22:16.080 that are like. 1:22:16.120 --> 1:22:20.200 Standing with the oppressed peoples of the world. Yeah. 1:22:20.240 --> 1:22:22.639 Yeah, like watching the Battle of Algaeis and setting off 1:22:22.720 --> 1:22:25.520 to immediately liberate the people of Africa. 1:22:25.280 --> 1:22:31.360 Literal mercenaries right yeah. Yeah, But getting back onto the 1:22:31.400 --> 1:22:35.040 main topic, talking about all these ways we divvy up 1:22:35.040 --> 1:22:39.640 the world out of the linguistic and cultural and geographical 1:22:39.640 --> 1:22:45.000 differences that we observe around us came this concept of nations, right. 1:22:45.680 --> 1:22:50.000 Nation as an idea also came out of the European 1:22:50.040 --> 1:22:54.040 imagine nation. It's commonly defined and it's usable by today. 1:22:54.040 --> 1:22:56.040 But it's commonly defined as a large community of people 1:22:56.080 --> 1:23:00.040 who share common identity, often through language, culture, history, and 1:23:00.120 --> 1:23:04.440 sometimes ethnicity. Then who usually inhabit a specific geographic territory 1:23:04.760 --> 1:23:09.519 with its own political organization. The communations without states as 1:23:09.560 --> 1:23:12.360 simply a cultural community for people feel a collective belong 1:23:12.400 --> 1:23:15.640 and then share that snee. But nations are as we know, 1:23:15.760 --> 1:23:19.160 mostly tied up with states today, hence nation being used 1:23:19.160 --> 1:23:20.479 as a synonym for country. 1:23:20.800 --> 1:23:24.280 Yeah, this is one of my bug bears. I guess 1:23:24.400 --> 1:23:27.960 is an academic like I tried to develop this concept 1:23:28.000 --> 1:23:31.040 of Catalan nationalism that like at the time was inherently 1:23:31.040 --> 1:23:33.200 anti fascist, I think or was trying. 1:23:32.920 --> 1:23:33.760 To be like that. 1:23:33.960 --> 1:23:37.880 It ain't now like this. It's a very Catalan right now. 1:23:38.080 --> 1:23:41.599 And yeah, I do still find it hard when people 1:23:41.640 --> 1:23:44.439 say nation is the of state, especially Americans, Like, it's 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:47.560 very hard, right because state is like a subset of 1:23:47.560 --> 1:23:50.240 the state here, like the sort of motive division of 1:23:50.280 --> 1:23:53.519 the federal state. So it can be hard to explain 1:23:53.600 --> 1:23:55.240 those differences. 1:23:54.800 --> 1:23:58.240 And as you mentioned, this sort of way that the 1:23:58.360 --> 1:24:02.680 Catalan nationalism has shifted it really I think gets to 1:24:02.760 --> 1:24:07.919 the whole weakness of the nation idea. So Benick Anderson 1:24:08.000 --> 1:24:13.040 famously called nations imagined communities because the community exists as 1:24:13.040 --> 1:24:18.520 a collective fantasy. You know, they imagine a deep comradeship 1:24:18.560 --> 1:24:21.960 with people who they've never met, and this fantasy has 1:24:22.000 --> 1:24:25.639 boundaries not just about who is included, but also famously 1:24:25.680 --> 1:24:29.360 who is excluded. And this fantasy is not necessarily something 1:24:29.400 --> 1:24:32.200 that is automatic or natural as we tend to see 1:24:32.200 --> 1:24:35.120 it today, But it's really the rise of things like 1:24:35.160 --> 1:24:38.680 print capitalism, with the mass production of books and newspapers, 1:24:38.760 --> 1:24:45.000 and that's what really shaped the standardization and formalization of 1:24:45.040 --> 1:24:50.040 these imagined communities through the creational like common cultural reference 1:24:50.240 --> 1:24:53.360 and a shared sense of history. And then of course 1:24:53.360 --> 1:24:57.000 you had the nation idea further being developed by liberal 1:24:57.040 --> 1:25:00.559 revolutions and through the shared experience of clu your rule. 1:25:01.080 --> 1:25:05.040 You know, we're subject populations with mobilized nationalism to claim 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:05.760 self determination. 1:25:07.080 --> 1:25:09.320 Yeah, definitely like it. I'm sure. 1:25:09.479 --> 1:25:11.120 The only I'm trying to remember I borrowed this from 1:25:11.120 --> 1:25:14.160 someone but the idea of like identity entrepreneurs is one 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:18.960 I like, like it's when religion loses its claim on 1:25:19.080 --> 1:25:21.240 universal truth, specifically in Europe. 1:25:22.280 --> 1:25:24.840 That's like a market for identity that is open. 1:25:25.439 --> 1:25:29.719 And the creation of nations is like, to my mind, 1:25:29.760 --> 1:25:34.479 like a bourgeois project, right Like, it's an entrepreneurial endeavor 1:25:34.720 --> 1:25:37.439 that they seek to create something, a benefit from it 1:25:37.720 --> 1:25:40.320 and like it yet to a agree that's turned against them, 1:25:40.680 --> 1:25:43.960 it's still an entrepreneurial endeavor, right Like. Still, you could 1:25:43.960 --> 1:25:48.200 be creating a nation which wants to kick France out 1:25:48.200 --> 1:25:51.679 of Morocco, right that that nation may not have space 1:25:51.720 --> 1:25:54.760 for everyone who inhabits that territory of Morocco. Like it's 1:25:54.760 --> 1:25:57.280 still it's a sort of for some people. 1:25:57.800 --> 1:26:03.639 Construct absolutely absolutely, I think the elite intellectual current of 1:26:03.680 --> 1:26:07.960 nationalist movements can go under stated. You know, oftentimes what 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:13.040 stirs up the masses toward that specific direction, because I mean, 1:26:13.080 --> 1:26:17.200 the masses will revolt against their conditions, But what sort 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:20.560 of directs it in that national independence direction? And this 1:26:20.680 --> 1:26:23.320 concept of nation is tends to be that sort of 1:26:23.360 --> 1:26:25.560 elite intellectual current. I often look at the history of 1:26:25.760 --> 1:26:28.519 and Tobago as a reference point see is that's where 1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:29.160 I come from. 1:26:29.920 --> 1:26:31.240 The whole process of. 1:26:31.280 --> 1:26:34.160 Nation building is always ongoing, and we are in a 1:26:34.200 --> 1:26:38.080 position where there's an effort, there's very strong efforts to 1:26:38.200 --> 1:26:43.479 both push for a nation building but also recognize our 1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:46.720 divergent pasts, you know, because we have this sort of 1:26:47.160 --> 1:26:52.760 almost equal in population Indo Trinardian and Afrotrianardian populations, and 1:26:52.800 --> 1:26:54.760 then a mixed population as well, and then you have 1:26:54.800 --> 1:26:59.280 some Chinese and Syria and Lebanese and Venezuela and Filipino 1:26:59.280 --> 1:27:03.879 and all these different groups come into Trinidad, and because 1:27:03.920 --> 1:27:07.240 of that colonial past, their tensions is between those groups 1:27:07.280 --> 1:27:10.040 and things are still play out to this day. But 1:27:10.200 --> 1:27:12.479 while those tensions are played ound, there's also an effort 1:27:12.600 --> 1:27:17.719 to construct a unity through an allegiance to the nation 1:27:18.000 --> 1:27:21.080 of trinand Tobago to create a sense of national identity. 1:27:21.439 --> 1:27:23.799 And as a very young country, it's still quite difficult 1:27:23.880 --> 1:27:28.920 to do. I can imagine, especially in the United States, 1:27:29.760 --> 1:27:31.800 it might have been a similar situation where you have 1:27:31.880 --> 1:27:35.639 all these different European populations and different populations from around 1:27:35.640 --> 1:27:39.120 the world who are in the US, and there hasn't 1:27:39.200 --> 1:27:42.479 quite yet been a fully built up American identity yet, 1:27:43.400 --> 1:27:45.000 and so a lot of those tensions are still kind 1:27:45.000 --> 1:27:47.160 of playing out, and so it takes a couple of 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:49.640 generations for there to be a sense of American identity 1:27:49.920 --> 1:27:50.880 that arises. 1:27:50.479 --> 1:27:50.880 Out of that. 1:27:51.080 --> 1:27:54.800 Yeah, definitely, Trinidad being one a younger colony and two 1:27:54.960 --> 1:27:59.120 only recently becoming independent in nineteen sixty two, it hasn't 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:03.920 had enough time yet at I suppose develop that patriotism 1:28:04.160 --> 1:28:07.880 that America is so known for. And so you still 1:28:07.920 --> 1:28:11.960 see a lot of people continue to have allegiances to 1:28:12.120 --> 1:28:16.240 the ancestry, to their heritage, even before they have any 1:28:16.280 --> 1:28:20.360 sort of sense of connection to the country. Concept of truead. 1:28:20.479 --> 1:28:22.840 Yeah, the American would be interesting because the people who 1:28:22.880 --> 1:28:25.960 did the American Revolution might often call themselves English, right like, 1:28:27.479 --> 1:28:32.960 And it's this kind of post hawk nationalism that has applied, 1:28:33.080 --> 1:28:36.519 right like, they did begin constructing a nation, but after 1:28:36.600 --> 1:28:40.479 they after they gained the apparatus of the state, right like. 1:28:40.600 --> 1:28:43.360 And sometimes they'll talk about their freedoms in terms of 1:28:43.400 --> 1:28:46.400 English freedoms, which they themselves are not granted, right that 1:28:46.479 --> 1:28:48.680 they don't have the same freedoms as English people in 1:28:48.800 --> 1:28:52.120 England when they are a British colony. This concept of freedom, 1:28:52.160 --> 1:28:54.560 they will elucidate like it, and like so much of 1:28:54.600 --> 1:28:57.040 it is based on like English common law. Right, they 1:28:57.040 --> 1:29:02.200 didn't necessarily see themselves as distinct. That comes later. And 1:29:02.240 --> 1:29:04.240 like the US, one is interesting because they have to 1:29:04.280 --> 1:29:07.840 develop this kind of civic nationalism. M I guess France 1:29:07.920 --> 1:29:10.439 has said two of course, but like France is probably 1:29:10.479 --> 1:29:11.240 the og there. 1:29:11.320 --> 1:29:13.080 But like this. 1:29:13.040 --> 1:29:16.599 Idea, like you've subscribed to these ideals, therefore you're an 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:22.439 American because they're like this this nation constructed by people 1:29:22.439 --> 1:29:23.839 from all over Europe. 1:29:23.840 --> 1:29:24.559 For the most part. 1:29:25.200 --> 1:29:28.720 The phrasing is universal, but the implementation is not. Right, 1:29:28.720 --> 1:29:30.679 it's also a country where people own other people. 1:29:31.320 --> 1:29:34.799 Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, like I was saying earlier, 1:29:35.560 --> 1:29:38.360 it does help in our struggle for autonomy and independence 1:29:38.360 --> 1:29:42.240 from clune On rule to have this construct other nation, right, 1:29:43.320 --> 1:29:47.120 but it also obscures a lot of the real material 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:50.200 divisions and society, you know, between the wing class and 1:29:50.240 --> 1:29:53.240 the elites. And so you have this national identity that 1:29:53.360 --> 1:29:59.000 is constructed by intellectual and you know, economic elites, and 1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:02.360 it's overlaid on a population that doesn't really have us 1:30:02.360 --> 1:30:06.880 see in that construction. And so these nationalist projects will 1:30:06.880 --> 1:30:11.200 try to downplay or suppress differences in conflicts. And but 1:30:11.280 --> 1:30:18.439 as part of why nationalism so often lends itself to fascism, 1:30:18.680 --> 1:30:21.400 because fascism is an outgrowth of this idea of nation 1:30:22.400 --> 1:30:27.080 where they promote this vision of national unity and stifle 1:30:27.120 --> 1:30:31.799 class conflict and create a collusion of classes that pushes 1:30:31.840 --> 1:30:35.640 aside of people who don't fit within their concept of 1:30:35.640 --> 1:30:36.040 the nation. 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:37.040 Yeah. 1:30:37.120 --> 1:30:39.720 Yeah, I often think, like when I'm talking to my 1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:42.360 undergrads about nation, Like the most distinct way I could 1:30:42.360 --> 1:30:46.840 say is like the salient we through both space and time, right, Like, 1:30:47.080 --> 1:30:50.640 it's the people you identify with, it's the us, and 1:30:50.720 --> 1:30:55.599 fascism weaponizes us against the rest of humanity or against 1:30:55.680 --> 1:30:59.400 us mostly like against escapegoat group who become them. Right, 1:30:59.479 --> 1:31:02.920 and then like the nation is for us, the state 1:31:03.000 --> 1:31:05.880 is for us, it's not for them, Thus they must 1:31:05.960 --> 1:31:06.880 be exterminated. 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:07.680 Exactly. 1:31:07.800 --> 1:31:10.200 It's an obvious outgrowth of nationalism. 1:31:10.600 --> 1:31:15.920 Hence xenophobia, hence anti semitism, anti blackness, anti indigenuity, all 1:31:15.920 --> 1:31:19.679 these prejudices. I mean, And that's the thing about nationalism. 1:31:19.720 --> 1:31:23.719 It's not necessarily consistent because you'll say, all people from 1:31:23.760 --> 1:31:26.160 this land, you know, we should desay to be United 1:31:26.720 --> 1:31:28.639 except for those people who are also from this land. 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:31.640 They don't get to count, you know, they are perpetual outsiders. 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:34.519 They don't share the true culture. They aren't part of 1:31:34.520 --> 1:31:38.679 our destiny. So even if they're legally citizens or legally 1:31:38.960 --> 1:31:41.720 a long term residents, or they haven't residents there for 1:31:41.720 --> 1:31:44.320 a long time the entire lives for generations or if 1:31:44.320 --> 1:31:47.960 the case may be, they don't count. They're outside forever. 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:52.000 Yeah, yeah, they can never assent to like a sort 1:31:52.040 --> 1:31:55.880 of higher status of being one of us. British people 1:31:55.920 --> 1:31:58.200 like to mobilize this one a lot, right, Like you 1:31:58.240 --> 1:31:59.439 can be British, but. 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:00.680 You can never be English. 1:32:00.800 --> 1:32:06.679 Yeah, I forget who coined that coined the phrase cricket nationalism, 1:32:07.040 --> 1:32:10.120 but it's just particularly kind of ridiculous, Like, oh, if 1:32:10.360 --> 1:32:12.640 you know, if there's a Test match between Britain and 1:32:12.680 --> 1:32:16.440 Pakistan and Britain Trinidad Tobago, who do you support? Like 1:32:16.880 --> 1:32:18.479 is that, like are you really going to make that 1:32:18.479 --> 1:32:21.479 the core of your national identity? Like the cene qua 1:32:21.680 --> 1:32:25.439 non of being British is like which flag you take 1:32:25.479 --> 1:32:31.360 to the cricket match? Like it's particularly ridiculous and if 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:34.320 it doesn't reflect exclusion, right, people aren't taking their flag 1:32:34.360 --> 1:32:37.040 to the cricket match because like that's the core of 1:32:37.080 --> 1:32:39.120 the entity. They're just like, yeah, well kind of I 1:32:39.360 --> 1:32:44.000 get treated differently because of my ethnic boundary, like makeup 1:32:44.080 --> 1:32:48.080 right ethnic presentation. So I guess you guys don't like me, 1:32:48.240 --> 1:32:50.439 so like they'll be funny when we kick your ass cricket, 1:32:50.800 --> 1:32:54.559 like it's the cause of arrow points in the wrong direction. 1:32:54.640 --> 1:32:57.840 I guess I can imagine I will not be bringing 1:32:58.000 --> 1:33:00.439 any flags to any cricket match because because I don't 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:03.920 attend cricket matches, I'm not not too big of a 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:05.040 fan of cricket. 1:33:05.680 --> 1:33:06.599 It can't be doing it. 1:33:06.880 --> 1:33:09.360 I stick to my football, and I say football in 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:10.519 the international sense. 1:33:10.880 --> 1:33:14.160 Good, yeah, yeah, I can't stand around long enough to 1:33:14.160 --> 1:33:15.120 play cricket, to be honest. 1:33:15.800 --> 1:33:19.559 As we're talking about national liberation, these struggles often took 1:33:19.560 --> 1:33:22.639 place in the context of the Cold War, right, which 1:33:22.640 --> 1:33:25.240 is where we get this other sense of this other 1:33:25.280 --> 1:33:28.640 framework for divving up the world now. Growing up, I 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:30.880 was always told that, you know, trant Tobago is a 1:33:30.920 --> 1:33:34.120 third world country. I had a social studies textbook, and 1:33:34.160 --> 1:33:37.240 I taught first world, second world, third world, But I 1:33:37.280 --> 1:33:39.880 didn't teach first world second World, third world in the 1:33:39.880 --> 1:33:42.479 context of the Cold War, because I grew up in 1:33:42.479 --> 1:33:45.960 a post Cold War world and these terms came from 1:33:46.000 --> 1:33:48.320 the Cool War but persisted after the Cold War. So 1:33:48.920 --> 1:33:52.519 what happened I was taught we have third world because 1:33:52.560 --> 1:33:55.639 we are still developing. We're not at that intermediate stage 1:33:55.680 --> 1:33:58.240 development where we could see the second world, and we're 1:33:58.240 --> 1:34:02.160 not at that first world level of developed and like America, right. 1:34:02.080 --> 1:34:02.160 And. 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:07.479 That's that's a smaller side for me. But I've always 1:34:07.479 --> 1:34:11.640 found it mildly irritated when I see people use this 1:34:11.920 --> 1:34:15.439 famous social media catchphrase or America is a third World 1:34:15.439 --> 1:34:16.679 country in a Gucci belt. 1:34:18.560 --> 1:34:21.760 I haven't seen now on the yet. That's annoying. 1:34:22.040 --> 1:34:24.759 I'm sure you've seen similar sentiments, this idea all America's 1:34:24.840 --> 1:34:25.880 third world, American. 1:34:25.600 --> 1:34:27.360 Stud world, Yeah, I have. 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:31.559 Like, it's just annoying to me yet, So one, it 1:34:31.640 --> 1:34:34.799 completely divorces the concert of the third world from its actual 1:34:34.840 --> 1:34:38.360 origins and to it. Also, I think reflects that kind 1:34:38.360 --> 1:34:40.880 of a blindness to what's happened in the rest of 1:34:40.920 --> 1:34:43.880 the world, in the countries that are actually considered third 1:34:43.880 --> 1:34:46.759 world and the differences between them, you know, for everything 1:34:46.800 --> 1:34:51.360 that we can express frustrations about in the US anybody 1:34:51.360 --> 1:34:53.600 in the third world, I think, and I've when I 1:34:53.680 --> 1:34:55.360 when I've visited the US, I've seen it with my 1:34:55.400 --> 1:35:00.640 own eyes. You know, there's still things there that Americans 1:35:00.720 --> 1:35:06.200 might take for granted that are just not that would 1:35:06.200 --> 1:35:09.720 never be taken for granted in another context. And I see, 1:35:09.760 --> 1:35:12.639 of course the divisioncy in America's version of the First 1:35:12.680 --> 1:35:16.040 World versus you know, some of the European Social Democracy's 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:18.440 version of the First World. So I get that frustration, 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:20.400 you know, the lack of free health care and that 1:35:20.479 --> 1:35:25.560 kind of thing, investment in infrastructure and all that. But 1:35:25.680 --> 1:35:28.000 let me just get into the background behind the tomb. 1:35:28.320 --> 1:35:40.680 Right as we step into the Cool War, you have 1:35:40.760 --> 1:35:43.599 this concept of the three world model that came after 1:35:43.720 --> 1:35:46.840 World War Two. The pre war status cool was over 1:35:47.000 --> 1:35:50.120 and you had new conflicts on the horizon. And to 1:35:50.200 --> 1:35:55.120 the film, first World originally described the capitalist block led 1:35:55.160 --> 1:35:59.719 by the United States and Western Europe, were capitalist markets, liberals, 1:35:59.720 --> 1:36:02.840 and rock see an economic progress was celebrated. And then 1:36:02.880 --> 1:36:05.800 you had the Second World block, which referred to the 1:36:05.800 --> 1:36:09.439 communist bloc led by the Soviet Union, where what I 1:36:09.439 --> 1:36:14.560 would consider state capitalism and centrally planned economies shape their societies. 1:36:15.120 --> 1:36:18.200 So in the First World yet countries like the US, Australia, 1:36:18.720 --> 1:36:22.679 Africa today might be shocking. You know, Iran was even 1:36:22.680 --> 1:36:26.120 considered part of the First World block during the Cool War. 1:36:26.600 --> 1:36:28.320 That might be shocking now because when we think of 1:36:28.360 --> 1:36:30.559 some of these countries like, oh, those are third World countries. 1:36:30.600 --> 1:36:33.679 Those are undeveloped countries. They aren't at the developed level 1:36:33.720 --> 1:36:37.639 of the West yet. But in the context in which 1:36:37.640 --> 1:36:41.360 has three World model originated, these were countries that explicitly 1:36:41.439 --> 1:36:45.559 aligned themselves with the policies of the United States and 1:36:45.600 --> 1:36:51.160 its allies as capitalist nations against the Soviet Bloc. And 1:36:51.320 --> 1:36:54.400 the Soviet Bloc you had, of course countries like China 1:36:55.160 --> 1:37:02.280 and Vietnam, Laos, Ethiopia, Yeah, and Huba, all these different 1:37:02.360 --> 1:37:07.559 countries align themselves explicitly with the Soviet Union. Then the 1:37:07.600 --> 1:37:09.840 third World and where the third will concept came in 1:37:10.320 --> 1:37:15.320 was with all the countries that stood against picking aside. Yeah, 1:37:15.520 --> 1:37:17.920 a lot of these were former colonies and nations that 1:37:18.080 --> 1:37:21.280 chose not to side completely with either. And so this 1:37:21.320 --> 1:37:24.160 whole concept, this whole idea of the non aligned movement, 1:37:25.040 --> 1:37:28.800 it really kicked off thanks to the joining of the 1:37:28.800 --> 1:37:33.519 Indian Prime Minister, the Canayan president, the Indonesian president, and 1:37:33.560 --> 1:37:38.280 the president of the United Arab Republic, alongside Yugoslavia and 1:37:38.320 --> 1:37:41.959 so all these countries who all had very different economic 1:37:42.040 --> 1:37:45.280 arrange ones Yugoslavia famously was kind of doing its own 1:37:45.320 --> 1:37:48.880 thing compared to a lot of the other countries associated 1:37:48.920 --> 1:37:52.760 with socialism. India and Ghana they were also kind of 1:37:52.800 --> 1:37:56.280 doing their own thing, kind of a mix trance. Tobago's 1:37:56.320 --> 1:38:00.920 also considered part of the non aligned movement, and so 1:38:01.600 --> 1:38:05.240 these classifications at the time, these were geopolitical and all 1:38:05.320 --> 1:38:10.040 political ideology is not necessarily economic development. So technically speaking, 1:38:10.080 --> 1:38:13.479 the terms shouldn't even be relevant us today. I mean, 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:17.000 the Cold War of the twentieth century is over. But 1:38:17.080 --> 1:38:19.720 over time the narrative began to twist. You know, so 1:38:19.800 --> 1:38:22.280 because you didn't pick a side, you didn't pick the 1:38:22.360 --> 1:38:24.800 red team or the blue team, you didn't pick the 1:38:24.800 --> 1:38:29.400 First World of the Second World, this narrative developed where 1:38:29.600 --> 1:38:32.960 or you didn't pick a side, you're politically independent, so 1:38:33.040 --> 1:38:36.799 you're poor, you're chaotic, your failed state, all these different things. 1:38:37.120 --> 1:38:40.200 And of course there were incidents in part influenced of 1:38:40.240 --> 1:38:43.479 course by state actors in the US and state actors 1:38:43.640 --> 1:38:47.799 in the Soviet client block would have contributed to this outcome, 1:38:48.560 --> 1:38:51.160 But over time you get this sense of or the 1:38:51.200 --> 1:38:55.559 third World is failure. All these states were trying different 1:38:55.560 --> 1:39:00.280 path of development, different approaches to governance from either of 1:39:00.320 --> 1:39:04.120 the two camps, mixed hybrid approaches, but in the end 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:06.519 that's just this just got them stuck with the label 1:39:06.560 --> 1:39:10.599 of underdevelopment and at having them being seen as lesser. 1:39:11.160 --> 1:39:15.439 Now today people don't use food world as much as 1:39:15.439 --> 1:39:19.599 they use developing, at least in you know, the more 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:24.760 above board discourse. But that division also has its own implications, 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:28.040 right the developed countries versus the developing countries. It's kind 1:39:28.040 --> 1:39:31.800 of a softer sorts of version of the same thing. 1:39:31.920 --> 1:39:34.559 Yeah, it's kind of gentle, Yeah, the same shit. 1:39:35.520 --> 1:39:38.640 What those terms do implicitly, it's like, you know what, 1:39:38.680 --> 1:39:42.439 you're fish in water, so you can't recognize water. It's 1:39:42.479 --> 1:39:47.320 hard to recognize these things, these ideological impulses when we're 1:39:47.320 --> 1:39:50.760 submerged in them. If you take a step back, you realize, oh, 1:39:50.920 --> 1:39:54.560 these terms developed and developing, they have very heavy implications. 1:39:54.880 --> 1:39:57.519 And the implication is that there's a single linear path 1:39:57.560 --> 1:40:02.080 to progress modeled after Western cap that all societies are 1:40:02.080 --> 1:40:08.400 progressing towards through industrialization, through consumerism, through the ALMIGHTGP growth, 1:40:08.920 --> 1:40:13.160 and so development to your underdevelopment becomes a tool of intervention. 1:40:13.920 --> 1:40:17.800 It becomes a way to mask imperial interests with the 1:40:17.920 --> 1:40:19.880 sort of the nair of oh, we're just kind of 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:20.719 helping you out. 1:40:21.200 --> 1:40:21.360 You know. 1:40:21.400 --> 1:40:25.360 It's like we move from your savage you're primitive, so 1:40:25.720 --> 1:40:29.200 you're just not developed yet, but theory will help you out. 1:40:29.800 --> 1:40:32.440 And that's how you get the whole sort of IMF 1:40:32.520 --> 1:40:36.240 and World Bank, introductions of models of debts and policy 1:40:36.280 --> 1:40:39.960 conditions and metrics and all these different things to sort 1:40:39.960 --> 1:40:44.519 of shape these countries into client states, states that can 1:40:44.560 --> 1:40:49.559 be used to further Western development. The Cold War is 1:40:49.600 --> 1:40:53.920 technically over now, as I said, so I suppose we've 1:40:53.920 --> 1:40:58.040 reached the end of history, as the famous saying goes, 1:40:58.080 --> 1:41:02.200 but not exactly. In the only nineteen nineties, Samuel Huntington 1:41:02.560 --> 1:41:05.360 came up with a thesis to explain the conflicts that 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:08.800 would define the post Cold War world and as we 1:41:08.920 --> 1:41:11.599 entered into the twenty first century, and so he argued 1:41:11.600 --> 1:41:13.839 that the future of global conflict would not be defined 1:41:13.880 --> 1:41:18.719 by competing ideologies or economic systems, but by cultural fault lines. 1:41:19.520 --> 1:41:21.960 In his nineteen ninety three article in Foreign Affairs, which 1:41:22.040 --> 1:41:24.759 Lates expanded into his nineteen ninety six book The Clash 1:41:24.800 --> 1:41:28.080 of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, Huntington 1:41:28.120 --> 1:41:30.200 predicted that the primary source of conflict in a new 1:41:30.240 --> 1:41:34.760 era would be between distinct civilizations. His model would have 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:38.600 pointed to clashes between the West and other groups Islamic nations, 1:41:38.720 --> 1:41:42.040 the Confucian East, and of course set up this sense 1:41:42.080 --> 1:41:45.040 that the West is this pinnacle of rationality and modernity 1:41:45.479 --> 1:41:49.759 and all these others in competition with the fantastic, amazing West. 1:41:50.400 --> 1:41:51.800 And I always like to call out some of these 1:41:51.800 --> 1:41:54.240 strange ways that he has divided the world. 1:41:54.360 --> 1:41:56.400 Right, So sub Saharan. 1:41:56.080 --> 1:42:01.160 Africa is all grouped up into the African camp, all 1:42:01.200 --> 1:42:06.000 of North Africa, the Middle East, into West Asia, all 1:42:06.040 --> 1:42:09.479 of that is considered part of the Islamic civilization. Forget 1:42:09.520 --> 1:42:11.840 all the differences between any of them. By the way, 1:42:12.120 --> 1:42:15.200 Indonesia it's also part of the Islamic block. You have 1:42:15.320 --> 1:42:22.000 the Sinic or the Confucian block that includes China, both Koreas, Taiwan, 1:42:22.400 --> 1:42:26.479 and Vietnam, except for the parts of China that are 1:42:26.560 --> 1:42:30.519 under the Buddhist camp, such as Tibet, So Tibetan is 1:42:30.560 --> 1:42:33.120 kind of carved up on its own as its own camp. 1:42:33.160 --> 1:42:35.280 Mongolia is also under the Buddhist camp. 1:42:36.040 --> 1:42:38.240 Thailand and all. 1:42:38.080 --> 1:42:41.760 These others in Southeast Asia considered part of the Buddhist camp. Yeah, 1:42:41.800 --> 1:42:43.880 and then you have the Latin American block, which is 1:42:43.920 --> 1:42:46.559 everybody part of Latin America and even people who are 1:42:46.560 --> 1:42:50.599 not technically Latin America and are kind of swept in there. 1:42:51.520 --> 1:42:52.800 And I'm going to be a by the base of 1:42:52.880 --> 1:42:55.639 the map that I saw on the Wikipedia article on 1:42:55.680 --> 1:42:56.240 the subject. 1:42:56.280 --> 1:42:59.280 Yeah, I found that map. Now it's some. 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:03.400 Very busy are divisions, and we used to cut up 1:43:03.400 --> 1:43:06.920 this will we have the Western rule versus the Orthodox world, 1:43:07.360 --> 1:43:14.120 which includes Kazakhstan and Greece and Ukraine and Russia all 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:15.599 under that civilizational banner. 1:43:15.800 --> 1:43:16.400 Yeah. 1:43:16.479 --> 1:43:21.160 The Philippines is somehow part Islamic, part Western, and part Sinic. 1:43:22.120 --> 1:43:24.200 It's a very unusual blend. 1:43:24.600 --> 1:43:25.200 Yeah. 1:43:25.240 --> 1:43:27.439 And then he's just got like Japan, it's just hanging 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:28.439 out there by itself. 1:43:28.560 --> 1:43:32.479 Oh yeah, I forgot to mention especial Japan is kind 1:43:32.479 --> 1:43:33.240 of it's the one thing. 1:43:33.320 --> 1:43:35.040 Yeah, it literally says Japanese. 1:43:35.280 --> 1:43:38.560 I've forgotten about that, and then he goes on to 1:43:38.600 --> 1:43:42.280 freak out about like the like Latin world as he 1:43:42.360 --> 1:43:47.160 sees it, like fucking dividing the United States right like 1:43:47.240 --> 1:43:49.880 in his his is it called like who we are 1:43:50.040 --> 1:43:52.280 or where we are or something his book about migration 1:43:52.360 --> 1:43:55.640 in the United States m it was after Clash of 1:43:55.640 --> 1:43:58.800 civilizations he wrote this book about like how the like 1:43:59.360 --> 1:44:01.479 I think I don't know quite remember how he termed it, 1:44:01.520 --> 1:44:04.040 like this, he us Latino or Hispanic or something else, 1:44:04.640 --> 1:44:08.160 but like that that that population increasing in the United 1:44:08.200 --> 1:44:12.200 States will like divide the United States into two fundamentally 1:44:12.200 --> 1:44:13.800 opposed civilizations. 1:44:14.400 --> 1:44:20.520 Yeah, yeah, he has some interesting compulsion. Yeah, And unfortunately 1:44:20.800 --> 1:44:25.920 his thesis found its voice following the events of nine 1:44:25.960 --> 1:44:29.640 to eleven partitions and media. These people were taking his 1:44:29.720 --> 1:44:34.040 ideas to kind of justify the one and terror that 1:44:34.080 --> 1:44:37.600 would unfold. It also creates sort of cultural device that 1:44:37.720 --> 1:44:40.639 settle into place at home will not create but shape 1:44:41.120 --> 1:44:44.679 those cultural divides as you create the sense of oh, 1:44:44.760 --> 1:44:47.440 if there's if we're experience in a clash of civilizations 1:44:47.520 --> 1:44:51.120 right now, then this flood couldn't quote of people from 1:44:51.160 --> 1:44:55.000 another civilization is a threat to the vision. It's something 1:44:55.040 --> 1:44:59.000 that needs to be targeted and fought against. Yeah, and so, 1:44:59.200 --> 1:45:03.120 in a sense, his classicalizations is kind of a repackaging 1:45:03.240 --> 1:45:05.800 of a lot of the binaries and divisions we've spoken 1:45:05.800 --> 1:45:08.760 of what before. You have elements of nationalism, you have 1:45:08.800 --> 1:45:12.280 elements of civilized versus barbarian, you have elements of East 1:45:12.320 --> 1:45:16.800 and West, the Cold War dichotomies. All of that kind 1:45:16.800 --> 1:45:21.760 of comes together in this neat package. Finally, we enter 1:45:21.800 --> 1:45:24.240 the twenty first century, and they are two very popular 1:45:24.320 --> 1:45:27.800 ways that we now categorize the world. People tend to 1:45:27.920 --> 1:45:31.559 use the phrases global North and Global South as a 1:45:31.600 --> 1:45:35.800 softer or more politically correct alternative to develop developing or 1:45:35.840 --> 1:45:40.240 first and third world. It's considered less loaded, more neutral sounding, 1:45:40.520 --> 1:45:44.839 and it's originally popularized via UN frameworks and the brand line, 1:45:45.320 --> 1:45:48.479 which is done in nineteen eighty, which drew a literal 1:45:48.560 --> 1:45:51.519 line across the globe, separating the wealthier North from the 1:45:51.560 --> 1:45:55.280 poorer self. To be clear, though, despite the geographical language, 1:45:55.280 --> 1:45:59.439 it's not literally about hemispheres. Australia is considered part of 1:45:59.479 --> 1:46:02.600 the Global Nor and Mongolia is considered part of the 1:46:02.600 --> 1:46:06.240 global South, but generally speaking, the global salt refus the 1:46:06.240 --> 1:46:09.519 post colonial regions and the global North refoos the wealthy, 1:46:09.640 --> 1:46:12.960 industrialized countries of the world. To me, again, it's not 1:46:13.000 --> 1:46:16.520 really a flawless framework. It has all the same binaries 1:46:16.640 --> 1:46:22.839 and smoothing over of complexities of internal class divides between 1:46:22.920 --> 1:46:25.439 For example, ritually it's in the global South and poor 1:46:25.439 --> 1:46:28.960 communities in the North. It gives impression that entire countries 1:46:28.960 --> 1:46:33.200 share unified class experience, I think. I think it also 1:46:33.560 --> 1:46:39.880 has the potential to obscure inequality between South South relations. 1:46:40.240 --> 1:46:41.880 So yes, two countries may both be a part of 1:46:41.920 --> 1:46:44.000 the Global South, but there could be a massive power 1:46:44.000 --> 1:46:46.920 differential between them that you know, set them up for 1:46:47.080 --> 1:46:52.160 interventions and equal treaties, and also sort of different sorts 1:46:52.200 --> 1:46:57.519 of medaline. For example, Saudi Arabia, at least in one 1:46:57.560 --> 1:46:59.679 map that I saw, is considered part. 1:46:59.600 --> 1:47:00.880 Of the Global South. 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:04.959 But as we know, Sauy Arabia is famous first medline 1:47:05.080 --> 1:47:10.160 across Africa and the Middle East. It's interventions, it's financing 1:47:10.240 --> 1:47:14.679 of different conflicts across the region. Now I get why 1:47:15.200 --> 1:47:18.400 the term is used. It creates a sense of shared struggle, 1:47:18.800 --> 1:47:22.680 especially in anti imperialist and climate justice spaces. But I 1:47:22.680 --> 1:47:25.080 think it has weaknesses. You know, and how we construct 1:47:25.080 --> 1:47:26.559 solidarity on that basis. 1:47:26.800 --> 1:47:28.639 Yeah right, Yeah. 1:47:28.640 --> 1:47:30.880 And the other and final system that I wanted to 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:35.120 mention that has gained popularity these days is world systems theory, 1:47:35.640 --> 1:47:39.000 which is actually older than class civilizations. It came out 1:47:39.040 --> 1:47:43.200 of Immanuel Wallastein's work during the Cold War and he 1:47:43.320 --> 1:47:45.400 kind of stood out and said that he was rejecting 1:47:45.479 --> 1:47:48.280 the three world system and the simplistic country by country 1:47:48.320 --> 1:47:52.040 development models. Instead he created this world systems theory that 1:47:52.160 --> 1:47:57.160 saw capitalism as a single global system, not a patchwork 1:47:57.200 --> 1:48:02.599 of individual national economies, on labor roles, on commodity flows, 1:48:02.600 --> 1:48:05.719 and on power concentration. And I think in an even 1:48:05.720 --> 1:48:09.000 more globalized world it makes the most sense. So to 1:48:09.120 --> 1:48:12.080 wall Esteem, they have three different zones of the global economy. 1:48:12.560 --> 1:48:15.599 You have the core, which as you know, have strong 1:48:15.640 --> 1:48:21.160 states financial capital, tech heavy industries controlled over global institutions, 1:48:21.720 --> 1:48:24.240 and they tend to exploit the labor and resources of 1:48:24.280 --> 1:48:27.720 the periphery, while export and high value goods and debt 1:48:27.800 --> 1:48:30.960 structures and the periphery of the countries that tend to 1:48:31.000 --> 1:48:36.479 have weaker institutions, extractive or career economies, reliance and export 1:48:36.520 --> 1:48:41.280 and raw materials debt defendency and structural adjustment policies, and 1:48:41.320 --> 1:48:44.759 they often dump in grounds for pollution, waste and arms 1:48:45.000 --> 1:48:48.839 from the global North. The semi periphery are then considered 1:48:48.920 --> 1:48:51.519 under his model, the countries that mediates between the core 1:48:51.560 --> 1:48:54.880 and the periphery. These are industrialized and economies with mixed 1:48:54.960 --> 1:48:58.720 labor and capital exports. They sometimes exploit others while being 1:48:58.760 --> 1:49:03.559 exploited themselves. These include countries like Brazil, India, Mexico, Turkey, 1:49:03.600 --> 1:49:05.880 and South Africa, and they tend to seal as the 1:49:05.920 --> 1:49:10.080 buffers that stabilize the system while chasing core status. 1:49:10.680 --> 1:49:12.879 I think this model is very dynamic. 1:49:13.320 --> 1:49:16.439 It could be more dynamic, but it does have the 1:49:16.439 --> 1:49:21.920 capacity to highlight the systemic interdependence of this glocal system, 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:26.600 that one region's wealth is contingent on another's dispossession. It 1:49:26.640 --> 1:49:29.200 makes it very useful for understanding that, you know, poverty 1:49:29.280 --> 1:49:32.559 is not some religious happens, it's land is very clearly 1:49:32.600 --> 1:49:38.280 structured and developed by the wealth of the North. And 1:49:38.320 --> 1:49:41.280 I think also with the corporate free model, you see 1:49:41.439 --> 1:49:43.920 the sense of a one way flow where value and 1:49:44.040 --> 1:49:47.200 labor goes from the periphery to the core, but there 1:49:47.280 --> 1:49:52.160 is another direction that flew goes right because the migrants 1:49:52.320 --> 1:49:54.760 from the perifree, they go to the core. They fill 1:49:54.840 --> 1:49:58.040 precurious rules and core economy is like care work and 1:49:58.120 --> 1:50:01.600 agriculture and logistics, and so they almost become an important 1:50:01.640 --> 1:50:05.120 periphery within the core. And their absence from the periphree 1:50:05.200 --> 1:50:08.479 also deprives the perifhree. Hence the phenomenon of brain drain, 1:50:09.560 --> 1:50:11.840 where people are siphered the way as label and the 1:50:12.240 --> 1:50:15.559 and the educated population tends to leave, you know, their 1:50:15.600 --> 1:50:18.280 countries of origin. But I say, I'm saying it's not 1:50:18.360 --> 1:50:20.240 just a one way flow because you also have that 1:50:20.320 --> 1:50:24.040 sense of diaspora and diasporic networks that kind of reverse 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:28.640 the flow. Remittances for some countries can be a significant 1:50:28.720 --> 1:50:32.840 chunk of their national income. I think the Philippines is 1:50:32.840 --> 1:50:35.559 a classic example of this. Some of the Caribbean countries, 1:50:36.439 --> 1:50:41.479 either historically or presently, we're very dependent on remittances from 1:50:41.560 --> 1:50:46.080 their diasporic populations sending money back home. Lebanon is another example, 1:50:46.280 --> 1:50:49.519 Salvador is another example. They become key part of the national GDP, 1:50:50.040 --> 1:50:55.320 that sort of relationship of my creatia. Yeah, but I 1:50:55.360 --> 1:50:58.240 think what I want to do with this corporate free model, 1:50:58.479 --> 1:51:02.320 or this core prefree semi prefer model is expanded. And 1:51:02.439 --> 1:51:04.120 one of the ways that I found very useful to 1:51:04.120 --> 1:51:08.400 do so comes from fellow podcaster shout out to Elija 1:51:08.479 --> 1:51:12.720 j Ayub. Yeah, I read an article of his that 1:51:13.280 --> 1:51:15.640 was on the anarchist libraries called the periphery has no 1:51:15.720 --> 1:51:19.519 time for binaries. This very crucial point, and I coulte 1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:22.839 we are as peripheral to the global selt regimes crushing 1:51:22.960 --> 1:51:25.080 us as they are perceived to be by the Western 1:51:25.120 --> 1:51:28.519 think tanks and foreign ministers who view their imagined space 1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:31.200 as the center of the world. China and Russia and 1:51:31.240 --> 1:51:34.160 Iran are peripheral to the West, and any and all 1:51:34.200 --> 1:51:37.439 activists in China and Russia and Iran a peripheral to 1:51:37.479 --> 1:51:40.080 their governments. So I kind of like this sense of 1:51:40.160 --> 1:51:42.559 not just looking on the country level, but looking at 1:51:42.560 --> 1:51:46.719 particular populations, populations within countries the relationships between them, bringing 1:51:46.800 --> 1:51:52.080 that class dynamic. Yeah, with between populations more prominently. 1:51:52.800 --> 1:51:55.759 Yeah, Like if you look at the like the example 1:51:55.800 --> 1:51:58.920 I'm familiar with, relate like the what we could look 1:51:58.920 --> 1:52:01.679 at Kurdistan or meen right, there are ethnic groups within 1:52:01.720 --> 1:52:07.160 that country that are subject to colonialism by the core 1:52:07.200 --> 1:52:10.519 groups within that country, right, like asides Arab belt stuff 1:52:10.640 --> 1:52:14.880 for the Boma majority using classic colonial divide and rule 1:52:14.920 --> 1:52:18.280 tactics right now against the rahiner in Themma. And like, 1:52:18.720 --> 1:52:21.240 I think it doesn't make sense to see that whole 1:52:21.280 --> 1:52:25.439 country is peripheral, right, Like that binary doesn't function when 1:52:25.479 --> 1:52:29.479 like the salient colonial violence happening, especially in the MMA, 1:52:29.680 --> 1:52:34.040 it's happening within the Anma, but it doesn't make any 1:52:34.080 --> 1:52:39.240 less salient. And like the experience of colonialism is still violent. 1:52:40.160 --> 1:52:43.720 And if we only use this like state level binary, 1:52:44.680 --> 1:52:45.919 we will totally miss. 1:52:45.720 --> 1:52:50.439 That exactly exactly, And I think it's important to be clear. 1:52:51.000 --> 1:52:54.439 Obviously I've rejected a lot of these frameworks in covering them. 1:52:54.960 --> 1:53:00.000 You won't see me using the civilized primitive binary anytime soon. 1:53:00.800 --> 1:53:02.839 But some of these concepts can be useful. 1:53:03.000 --> 1:53:03.200 You know. 1:53:03.240 --> 1:53:05.599 They do shape the way that we view the world, 1:53:06.120 --> 1:53:06.479 how we. 1:53:06.439 --> 1:53:09.960 See ourselves the imperfect, of course, but because they're trying 1:53:10.000 --> 1:53:12.679 to map onto reality, and reality is a shifting beast. 1:53:13.040 --> 1:53:16.559 But I think it's good to have some sense or 1:53:16.600 --> 1:53:20.720 some language to understand the inequality and podynamics present in 1:53:20.760 --> 1:53:23.240 the world. So we can reclaim these frameworks, so we 1:53:23.240 --> 1:53:25.360 can reject them. You know, we could use them for 1:53:25.439 --> 1:53:28.160 solidarity or for division. But the question I want to 1:53:28.240 --> 1:53:31.360 leave us with the wrap of this episode is how 1:53:31.400 --> 1:53:34.800 do we build a world where these divisions are no 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:39.880 longer descriptive or relevant? And that's all I have for today, 1:53:40.439 --> 1:53:41.840 or power to all the people. 1:53:42.439 --> 1:53:42.759 Peace. 1:54:03.840 --> 1:54:06.120 Hey, and welcome to take it up. And here I'm 1:54:06.160 --> 1:54:08.679 Andrew Sage and I'm back with James. 1:54:08.720 --> 1:54:12.080 It's me again. Welcome back. Yeah, good to be here. 1:54:12.400 --> 1:54:15.680 Great to have you once again, offer you to have me. 1:54:15.800 --> 1:54:17.559 I'm not sure the dynamic is here. 1:54:18.600 --> 1:54:21.000 Yeah, yeah, MEI it's nice to be together. 1:54:21.280 --> 1:54:23.920 It's an egalitarian dynamic. You know, we're both having each 1:54:23.920 --> 1:54:24.880 other in a sense. 1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:28.200 Yeah, yeah, we're sharing this podcast. 1:54:28.680 --> 1:54:31.960 Yeah. I think there are a lot of concepts that 1:54:32.000 --> 1:54:33.880 it's good to grasp to get a sense of how 1:54:33.920 --> 1:54:36.960 this world works. Kind of continuing from the previous episode 1:54:36.960 --> 1:54:39.480 where we spoke about all the different ways that we 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:44.240 can divide up the world and understanding the world and 1:54:44.280 --> 1:54:48.760 so on. Today's sort of pursuit of that endeavor. I 1:54:48.800 --> 1:54:51.440 wanted to get into a particular concept that is so 1:54:51.600 --> 1:54:56.200 benign yet supervsive in this system, and it's the idea 1:54:56.360 --> 1:54:59.440 of externalization. Do you get what I mean by that? 1:55:00.120 --> 1:55:03.160 Yeah, like making people of things other. 1:55:03.880 --> 1:55:06.880 Yes, But specifically, I think I want to address how 1:55:07.000 --> 1:55:11.920 capitalism persists by pushing harm onto the other, Yeah, onto 1:55:11.920 --> 1:55:16.800 the someone or something else, shifting the costs of particular actions, 1:55:16.920 --> 1:55:21.560 either environmentally, socially, or economically. I think the easiest example 1:55:21.560 --> 1:55:23.360 I could point too is how a company may choose 1:55:23.400 --> 1:55:26.520 to save on disposal costs by dumping their waste into 1:55:26.560 --> 1:55:30.240 a river, which can thus poison the water supply, the ecosystem, 1:55:30.320 --> 1:55:32.920 and the health of all those human and non human 1:55:32.960 --> 1:55:36.400 lives who rely upon or live near that river. Do 1:55:36.440 --> 1:55:39.560 you have another example you could probably point to? Yeah, 1:55:39.680 --> 1:55:40.440 I mean there are lots of them. 1:55:40.480 --> 1:55:41.960 One of them that I think of a lot is 1:55:42.040 --> 1:55:46.240 like how in the US, rightly, products that we can't 1:55:46.400 --> 1:55:49.320 recycle or that we can't landfill, we will literally ship to. 1:55:49.360 --> 1:55:50.760 Somewhere else to be dumped. 1:55:51.960 --> 1:55:55.440 Like, our consumption creates so much excess and so much waste, 1:55:55.640 --> 1:55:57.920 and we can't be confronted with that waste, so we 1:55:58.000 --> 1:55:59.960 tip it to places where people consume less. 1:56:00.840 --> 1:56:03.320 Yeah, it's uh, I mean you see, I don't know 1:56:03.320 --> 1:56:05.880 if you've seen, ay the footage of some of these places, 1:56:06.400 --> 1:56:12.600 their whole costs of fast fashion waste for example in Africa, 1:56:13.440 --> 1:56:17.720 or just eweiste leaching into the soil. It's really quite tragic. 1:56:18.240 --> 1:56:18.920 Yeah. 1:56:19.080 --> 1:56:22.080 I remember someone on net once was telling me that 1:56:22.160 --> 1:56:25.360 like one of the things that children did where they 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:29.200 had come from was they would pick through e waste, 1:56:29.760 --> 1:56:33.880 specifically charging cables to get the copper out. M M. 1:56:34.560 --> 1:56:36.879 This would result in them having like these terrible injuries 1:56:36.880 --> 1:56:39.880 to their fingers because they were like prying the cables apart, 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:41.960 and you know, over time they would get little pieces 1:56:42.000 --> 1:56:44.440 of both shards of metal EMBD in their fingertips. 1:56:44.600 --> 1:56:44.880 Town. 1:56:45.320 --> 1:56:46.200 Yeah, that's terrible. 1:56:46.880 --> 1:56:51.080 Yeah, it's pretty pretty grim condemnation of a way of consuming. 1:56:51.520 --> 1:56:52.600 Yeah, it's messed up. 1:56:52.840 --> 1:56:56.240 It's messed up, and I think when you see that 1:56:56.320 --> 1:56:58.960 sort of stuff, it's hard to unsee it. When you 1:56:59.000 --> 1:57:02.760 see that impact on't the world, it's hard to unsee it. 1:57:02.800 --> 1:57:06.839 But that's part of how this concept thrives, this externalization thrives, 1:57:07.160 --> 1:57:10.160 it's by obscuring itself. Yeah, so that's what we kind 1:57:10.160 --> 1:57:11.920 of want to do with this episode, get up a 1:57:12.000 --> 1:57:14.839 full breadth of its history, its present, and its apparent 1:57:14.880 --> 1:57:20.640 future so that we can not see all the different 1:57:20.640 --> 1:57:24.680 ways that this occurs. Now, this pass and on of 1:57:24.760 --> 1:57:27.280 courts may have always been an option on the table, 1:57:27.760 --> 1:57:30.000 but we can see that a lot of traditional economies 1:57:30.080 --> 1:57:33.520 did not go that route because traditional economies were often 1:57:33.640 --> 1:57:37.640 human economies, as David Greeber used the term in Debt, 1:57:37.720 --> 1:57:40.200 the first five thousand years, you know, these were economies 1:57:40.200 --> 1:57:44.080 focused on human relationships. They were embedded in kinship and 1:57:44.200 --> 1:57:48.120 land and customs and obligation and reciprocity. So what you 1:57:48.200 --> 1:57:51.760 owed was really financial. It was to you enable your elder, 1:57:51.880 --> 1:57:56.440 your clan plan itself, and so you could not really 1:57:56.920 --> 1:58:00.640 avoid the costs of your actions on others, because that 1:58:00.800 --> 1:58:04.360 was at the center of it all others. But the 1:58:04.400 --> 1:58:07.440 transition to capitalism was a shift in what the economy was. 1:58:08.080 --> 1:58:10.600 It enforced the idea that everything is or should be, 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:15.360 up for sale. The economist called Polani called it the 1:58:15.440 --> 1:58:20.480 Great Transformation, when land, labor, and money were turned into 1:58:20.520 --> 1:58:24.640 fictitious commodities, treated as if they were products for sale. 1:58:25.880 --> 1:58:28.680 Plenty saw the modern state and the capitalist market economy 1:58:28.720 --> 1:58:32.320 as a package deal. Graybot also made this very clear 1:58:32.360 --> 1:58:35.280 in Debt as well. For this new kind of economy 1:58:35.280 --> 1:58:37.480 to take hold, people had to change how they thought 1:58:37.480 --> 1:58:40.160 about work and trade and relation with each other. And 1:58:40.160 --> 1:58:42.920 see in the world, those conditions had to be created 1:58:43.120 --> 1:58:46.360 by the state, so you could look at how electritional 1:58:46.360 --> 1:58:50.040 economies and commons had to be disrupted to force the shift. 1:58:50.440 --> 1:58:54.160 In England, you had people pushed off of common land 1:58:54.400 --> 1:58:56.600 that they had use for centuries, and they had no 1:58:56.680 --> 1:58:58.520 choice but to sell their labor to survive and go 1:58:58.600 --> 1:59:01.080 into the factories. We have to remember that he never 1:59:01.240 --> 1:59:04.320 started in the factories. That actually started in the colonies. 1:59:04.760 --> 1:59:09.520 This dispossession of people and from place started through that 1:59:09.600 --> 1:59:14.880 colonization process. Already amplify through that colonization process extracting the 1:59:14.920 --> 1:59:18.080 wealth of people or of labor, of land, of resources 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:21.680 from one place to concentrate it to another to displace 1:59:22.280 --> 1:59:27.040 people and land and costs and secluialism was capitalism sort 1:59:27.080 --> 1:59:30.440 of training ground for externalization. You plunder a little bit 1:59:30.440 --> 1:59:33.160 over here, you profit a little bit over there. And 1:59:33.200 --> 1:59:34.800 this is really where we get to the core of 1:59:34.840 --> 1:59:38.920 capitalist externalization. With the shifting of the costs. On a 1:59:38.920 --> 1:59:42.240 small scale that looks like the river pollution example. From 1:59:42.320 --> 1:59:44.760 the global scale, it looks like what will steam is 1:59:44.800 --> 1:59:47.960 getting into with world systems theory how the wealth and 1:59:48.040 --> 1:59:52.040 stability the coronations depends on the exploitation of the periphery. 1:59:52.800 --> 1:59:56.360 So slavery and genocide and ecological ruin, all of these 1:59:56.360 --> 2:00:00.760 are costs that create the wealth that the core enjoys, 2:00:00.800 --> 2:00:04.080 but it's made invisible to that core because when you're 2:00:04.160 --> 2:00:08.640 part of an ongoing relationship with community, with land, with ecology, 2:00:08.680 --> 2:00:13.080 with people, the actions have consequences that matter, They reverberate, 2:00:13.120 --> 2:00:15.360 you can feel them, and that demands a level of 2:00:15.400 --> 2:00:19.640 responsibility on your part. But when you take the things 2:00:19.680 --> 2:00:22.760 that have been woven into relationship and turn them into 2:00:23.440 --> 2:00:28.760 plain old transactions, those transactions can then offload the costs, 2:00:29.200 --> 2:00:33.800 offload the consequences, make them someone else's problem. So, yeah, 2:00:34.120 --> 2:00:37.720 cloven is very affordable now, but it's affordable because somebody 2:00:37.840 --> 2:00:44.400 somewhere was underpaid and overworked. The smartphone. It's convenient, it's useful, successible, 2:00:45.040 --> 2:00:48.480 but it's parts of mind and the dangerous conditions. You know, 2:00:48.560 --> 2:00:55.320 your food solicious, nutritious, not exactly affordable these days, but 2:00:55.760 --> 2:00:59.520 it's picked by hands that cannot afford that same meal. 2:01:00.760 --> 2:01:03.960 So the harms of these systems, the harms of these actions, 2:01:03.960 --> 2:01:08.920 of this level of consumption doesn't cease to exist, it's 2:01:08.960 --> 2:01:12.000 just externalized, so it could be rendered invisible to one 2:01:12.160 --> 2:01:15.120 point of view. Yeah, and it's not something that can 2:01:15.160 --> 2:01:18.360 be set up without a fight. You know, people would resist. 2:01:18.720 --> 2:01:23.120 Enclosures were met with resistance, colonizations met with resistance, and 2:01:23.200 --> 2:01:25.800 even to the workers strike, you know, people do fight back. 2:01:25.840 --> 2:01:30.760 It's not just this sweeping and nevitable process. But because 2:01:30.760 --> 2:01:34.800 of the collaboration between state and capital, that collusion of 2:01:34.840 --> 2:01:37.880 status and capitalist interests, the whole system has managed to 2:01:37.920 --> 2:01:41.800 persist thus far. It's a very formidable forward dealing with 2:01:41.960 --> 2:01:44.320 So we can set it back here and there, but 2:01:44.440 --> 2:01:48.200 we have not defeated it yet. Yeah, and I say yet, 2:01:48.280 --> 2:01:50.800 because you know, as we get into there are ways 2:01:50.840 --> 2:02:04.440 to loosen its script. I think what's fascinating about capitalistic 2:02:04.440 --> 2:02:08.920 externalization today is just how much it has skilled and 2:02:08.960 --> 2:02:12.840 got more sophisticated in terms of the work that makes 2:02:12.880 --> 2:02:16.800 the world run. The most essential label is often the 2:02:16.840 --> 2:02:21.920 most invisible and undervalued and precurious labor. You know, where 2:02:21.960 --> 2:02:25.280 we're talking about the work that's necessary to clothe ourselves, 2:02:25.960 --> 2:02:29.200 the work that's necessary to feed ourselves, the work is 2:02:29.240 --> 2:02:32.680 necessary to build infrastructure such as in the Gulf States 2:02:32.720 --> 2:02:36.120 where you have litual modern slavery taking place to build 2:02:36.160 --> 2:02:40.520 up those countries where they're talking about gig work, transportation 2:02:40.760 --> 2:02:43.720 to livery that sort of thing, or reproductive work stuff 2:02:43.800 --> 2:02:47.520 like what it's called housewifery or domestic labor. Should you 2:02:47.640 --> 2:02:49.240 think of other examples as well. 2:02:49.480 --> 2:02:52.000 Yeah, I like the one you gave about your cell phone, right, 2:02:52.080 --> 2:02:57.200 like those rare earth materials. Like it's not some like 2:02:57.440 --> 2:03:00.800 safe mining operation bring serves out. 2:03:00.680 --> 2:03:01.160 Of the ground. 2:03:01.920 --> 2:03:05.520 It's human hands in dangerous conditions that kill people. 2:03:06.000 --> 2:03:10.200 Exactly, poisons people. It's it's not even necessarily a quicker death, 2:03:10.240 --> 2:03:13.400 it's often a slow, yeah, lifelong death. 2:03:13.320 --> 2:03:16.360 And it poisons that part of the world for generator. 2:03:16.360 --> 2:03:18.680 Like we could stop right now, and it would take 2:03:18.760 --> 2:03:22.720 generations for the damage to stop, exactly. 2:03:23.480 --> 2:03:26.480 That's the thing about destruction, right, destruction can be very quick, 2:03:26.520 --> 2:03:28.520 as the rebuilding that can take. 2:03:28.400 --> 2:03:30.080 A long time. Yeah. 2:03:30.480 --> 2:03:33.520 And if you look at how quickly Gazo has been flattened, 2:03:34.200 --> 2:03:36.200 this is how long it's going to take to recover 2:03:36.280 --> 2:03:36.680 from that. 2:03:37.280 --> 2:03:40.680 It's like nine and d yeah, yeah, yeah, like it. 2:03:41.840 --> 2:03:45.040 I mean I'm very familiar with that particular example, right, 2:03:45.080 --> 2:03:47.400 Like how quickly you can destroy something with a bomb 2:03:47.400 --> 2:03:50.080 from an aeroplane, and how hard people had to work 2:03:50.120 --> 2:03:52.480 to build it. In October of twenty three, I was 2:03:52.520 --> 2:03:56.600 in Kurdistan and like, I know how hard people work 2:03:56.680 --> 2:03:58.960 to build it, Jaba, right, to try and build a 2:03:59.040 --> 2:04:02.000 little island of democracy without the state in a place 2:04:02.040 --> 2:04:07.760 where the state has been weaponized against tons of different 2:04:08.080 --> 2:04:10.960 ethnic groups who are not Arab, and even against Arab 2:04:11.000 --> 2:04:13.560 people who didn't agree with the state's particular. 2:04:13.840 --> 2:04:15.000 Wine a thing. 2:04:15.960 --> 2:04:20.600 And one night, you know, like the power station's gone, 2:04:20.760 --> 2:04:24.040 they bombed while I was there, like an oxygen bottling 2:04:24.120 --> 2:04:28.280 plant for people who need supplemental oxygen, either temporarily or permanently, 2:04:28.560 --> 2:04:31.320 and like it's gone now. And now to build that 2:04:31.440 --> 2:04:35.360 back up in a world where you are largely alienated 2:04:35.400 --> 2:04:38.080 from the system of states in capital, right, you're trying 2:04:38.120 --> 2:04:39.960 to build stuff back up as much as you can 2:04:40.040 --> 2:04:45.360 from networks of solidarity and ingenuity, and that takes years. 2:04:45.880 --> 2:04:49.520 And yeah, yeah, but it's not visible, and. 2:04:50.080 --> 2:04:53.200 That's not even getting into the emotional and mental tool 2:04:53.880 --> 2:04:54.760 of something like that. 2:04:55.200 --> 2:04:55.440 Yeah. 2:04:55.520 --> 2:04:58.680 Yeah, oh that can be a setback as well. Yeah, 2:04:58.920 --> 2:05:02.360 when I've been talking about sources, we're talking about Yeah, 2:05:02.400 --> 2:05:04.960 that loss. Yeah, that that that pain. 2:05:05.080 --> 2:05:06.200 Yeah, Yeah, the pain. 2:05:06.920 --> 2:05:11.880 Made even worse when the skilled people, skilled workers who 2:05:11.880 --> 2:05:16.200 were responsible for upkeeping such something like that also wiped 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:18.320 up by that same bomb. Makes it all the more 2:05:18.360 --> 2:05:19.920 difficult to recover. 2:05:20.160 --> 2:05:23.280 Yeah, or drawn away right by the conditions of becoming 2:05:23.280 --> 2:05:25.960 a livable So you have this like brain drain, where 2:05:25.960 --> 2:05:29.640 people who have skills that are considered to be commercially 2:05:29.800 --> 2:05:30.960 valuable have. 2:05:30.960 --> 2:05:32.120 An opportunity to leave. 2:05:32.640 --> 2:05:36.040 The people who who don't have those have the opportunity 2:05:36.080 --> 2:05:38.520 to stay or don't have your opportunity to leave, I guess, 2:05:38.560 --> 2:05:41.480 like or even like, you know, the US made a 2:05:41.520 --> 2:05:44.240 bit a different version of externalization, I guess. But like 2:05:44.280 --> 2:05:46.240 the US made a big thing of how it defeated 2:05:46.240 --> 2:05:51.280 the Islamic state in you know, twenty nineteen, I guess. 2:05:51.360 --> 2:05:53.920 I can't remember when the last Atlan Alba goose was, 2:05:54.560 --> 2:05:58.600 I think twenty nineteen, But like we externalized it off 2:05:58.640 --> 2:06:02.280 florid the cost of that's yeah, the dying part, like 2:06:02.320 --> 2:06:04.600 the Yeah, US pilots did a whole lot of killing, 2:06:05.080 --> 2:06:10.040 but the dying part that, yeah, we externalized that right 2:06:10.240 --> 2:06:14.080 to Kurdish and Arab and as Syrian fodder. Yeah, to 2:06:14.160 --> 2:06:18.480 people who would whose lives didn't matter. Yeah, Like I 2:06:18.480 --> 2:06:22.880 remember a time standing in a cemetery there, just looking 2:06:22.920 --> 2:06:26.040 at lines and lines of graves, and I just left 2:06:26.080 --> 2:06:28.560 the house of someone who's thirteen year old son was 2:06:28.680 --> 2:06:32.360 killed in a drone strike and just thinking, like, each 2:06:32.440 --> 2:06:36.400 of these is a mother burying her child. That like, 2:06:37.040 --> 2:06:39.960 we essentially asked for the most part, right, like, to 2:06:40.040 --> 2:06:41.960 do that. We said, hey, what you guys do the 2:06:42.080 --> 2:06:44.160 dying part because we don't want to like it kind 2:06:44.160 --> 2:06:47.040 of sucks, sucks for the United States and Britain in 2:06:47.080 --> 2:06:49.720 Iraq and Afghanistan, so we'd like someone else to die now. 2:06:51.000 --> 2:06:53.640 And then you know, here we are a few years later, 2:06:53.760 --> 2:06:57.120 right and like the night before, Turkey has been bombing 2:06:57.720 --> 2:07:02.000 the place where I'm looking at these graves, and the 2:07:02.120 --> 2:07:05.560 US a doing shit to help, right Like, even though 2:07:05.720 --> 2:07:09.760 these people had like made this massive sacrifice, the US 2:07:09.880 --> 2:07:14.120 wasn't like, yeah, we're your friends. It's not a friendship relationship, 2:07:14.160 --> 2:07:17.520 you know, Like it's it's like you said, it's an interaction, okay, 2:07:17.600 --> 2:07:21.960 like a yeah, purchase more than a solidarity based thing. 2:07:22.640 --> 2:07:27.400 Yeah, And once again we really see that core externalized 2:07:27.400 --> 2:07:32.320 and its costs onto periphery and We see that both 2:07:32.360 --> 2:07:36.280 in the sense of on the global stage between countries 2:07:36.480 --> 2:07:42.560 or between populations cores and peripheres, but even internally within countries, 2:07:42.600 --> 2:07:46.760 as we mentioned in the previous episode talking about that 2:07:46.840 --> 2:07:49.560 divide between the core and the periphery where you have 2:07:50.320 --> 2:07:52.560 but a lot of people have called the economies biggest trick, 2:07:52.800 --> 2:07:57.560 you know, your socialized failures and privatize profits. Yeah. So 2:07:57.600 --> 2:08:00.320 in two thousand and eight with the financial crash, people 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:04.040 were evicted, but the balance got built out and the 2:08:04.040 --> 2:08:10.480 early stages of COVID corporations got relief, gig workers were exposed. Yeah, 2:08:10.840 --> 2:08:15.560 you know, in the process of austerity resulting from neoliberalism, 2:08:16.600 --> 2:08:21.040 social services get cut in order to balance the books, 2:08:21.600 --> 2:08:25.600 but there's never any consideration of or let's trike cutting profits. 2:08:25.960 --> 2:08:28.200 Yeah, and that's one thing that can never go down. 2:08:29.040 --> 2:08:33.440 Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think or even like within you know, 2:08:33.480 --> 2:08:36.520 we all all food come from the soil at some point, 2:08:36.640 --> 2:08:40.640 right that, Like I can't tell you how many people 2:08:40.680 --> 2:08:42.840 I know that my family are in agriculture, right, who 2:08:42.880 --> 2:08:43.440 have died or. 2:08:43.440 --> 2:08:45.440 Lost limbs on farms. 2:08:45.440 --> 2:08:48.440 It's the same is true if you're in the mining industry, right, Like, 2:08:49.160 --> 2:08:52.200 that's not something that's visible. You know, you don't like 2:08:52.280 --> 2:08:54.600 go to the supermarket and bite your bread, right, and 2:08:54.600 --> 2:08:56.600 you don't think that someone got their arm in the 2:08:56.640 --> 2:08:59.040 combine harvester when they were doing the field that went 2:08:59.080 --> 2:09:01.520 to the flower that major loaf of bread that costs 2:09:01.520 --> 2:09:04.360 one dollars ninety cents, and now the person doesn't have 2:09:04.400 --> 2:09:04.720 an arm. 2:09:04.800 --> 2:09:06.600 It's invisibilized. Yeah. 2:09:07.240 --> 2:09:08.600 I mean, it's the same thing when you see like 2:09:08.840 --> 2:09:12.360 these natural disasters taking place right, floods or burnings, right 2:09:12.360 --> 2:09:16.160 when when California is on file and when Pakistan is 2:09:17.000 --> 2:09:22.280 completely flooded out. Those are the consequences of the actions 2:09:22.280 --> 2:09:26.880 of corporations, of the actions of this entire global economic system. 2:09:27.040 --> 2:09:30.400 And meanwhile, the corporations are getting carbon credits to continue 2:09:30.440 --> 2:09:32.640 doing what they will always do it. Yeah, you know, 2:09:32.800 --> 2:09:35.040 and so the actual consequences of what they're doing, they're 2:09:35.040 --> 2:09:38.280 paying for carbon credits, but the actual consequences of what 2:09:38.280 --> 2:09:41.840 they're doing are being paid for by the communities that 2:09:41.920 --> 2:09:46.120 are displaced by the consequences of this climate change. 2:09:46.440 --> 2:09:46.680 Yeah. 2:09:46.760 --> 2:09:49.600 Yeah, And we never talk about when we talk about migration, right, 2:09:49.640 --> 2:09:51.760 like that's a great The climate change is a great 2:09:51.800 --> 2:09:54.600 example that we don't talk about how the bulk of 2:09:54.680 --> 2:09:56.760 people coming to the United States are coming from the 2:09:56.760 --> 2:09:59.160 place is most heavily impacted by climate change. 2:09:59.320 --> 2:09:59.600 Yep. 2:10:00.120 --> 2:10:02.640 Like I was in the Marshall Islands a few years ago, 2:10:03.160 --> 2:10:09.000 and there will be no more Marshall Islands within our lifetime, yeah, 2:10:09.040 --> 2:10:12.200 because of the consequences and massive corporations have made. But 2:10:12.320 --> 2:10:15.080 like they don't have any agency. It made me really 2:10:15.120 --> 2:10:18.040 like it was hard because they're doing stuff like they 2:10:18.160 --> 2:10:21.240 use a to get it to get around the atolls, right, 2:10:21.280 --> 2:10:24.000 they use little like two strikeout boards, and they're trying 2:10:24.000 --> 2:10:27.560 to build solar canoes instead and solar boats so that 2:10:27.600 --> 2:10:31.480 it's it's cleaner energy, right, Like less than a percent 2:10:31.520 --> 2:10:34.480 of a percent of the world's carbon emissions come from 2:10:34.480 --> 2:10:38.600 the Marshall Islands, and they're like trying their hardest to 2:10:38.640 --> 2:10:42.760 do their part to reduce their emissions, but like they 2:10:42.800 --> 2:10:44.880 can't make the impact that needs to be made to 2:10:44.920 --> 2:10:48.320 stop the sea levels rising. And arguably, like when the 2:10:48.360 --> 2:10:50.480 world had a chance to do so, like you see 2:10:50.520 --> 2:10:52.720 them speaking at the United Nations and then the UN 2:10:52.800 --> 2:10:54.760 being like the line has to go up. 2:10:55.200 --> 2:10:55.480 Yep. 2:10:55.680 --> 2:10:57.440 That means your island does to sink. 2:10:57.920 --> 2:11:00.680 And that's why you know, reform is not in can 2:11:00.960 --> 2:11:03.720 be enough, because this is how the system is designed. 2:11:04.480 --> 2:11:07.720 It's designed to push risk downward and outward, onto the 2:11:07.720 --> 2:11:11.400 working class, onto the global south, and onto the next generation. 2:11:12.280 --> 2:11:16.600 Because that's another dimension of externalization. Right time, even our 2:11:16.680 --> 2:11:20.000 future gets externalized in a sense. You know, all of 2:11:20.040 --> 2:11:24.200 our resources are limited or finite resources that can used 2:11:24.240 --> 2:11:26.880 up now at an increase in velocity. 2:11:27.880 --> 2:11:29.920 Right. Yeah, the national debt. 2:11:29.840 --> 2:11:33.280 Of some countries is being something further and further into now. 2:11:33.960 --> 2:11:36.600 Right the emissions the center of all those emissions now 2:11:37.120 --> 2:11:40.520 fossil fuels, you know, all that stuff, because we don't 2:11:40.520 --> 2:11:43.040 have to do the consequences, so the future don't have 2:11:43.040 --> 2:11:47.920 to do the consequences as the system digging its own grave, 2:11:48.560 --> 2:11:53.120 because even though the system needs stability, it will sacrifice 2:11:53.160 --> 2:11:58.480 future stability for present profits. It will sacrifice nature, which 2:11:58.520 --> 2:12:01.560 is the basis of the economy. It will sacrifice nature 2:12:01.880 --> 2:12:04.760 to the economy in service of the economy. It will 2:12:04.800 --> 2:12:08.960 treat natures disposable and infinite and something external to the 2:12:09.000 --> 2:12:11.360 way that we run things as if as if it's 2:12:11.400 --> 2:12:14.600 not going to catch up to us, and so as 2:12:14.640 --> 2:12:18.360 collapse will accelerate, as the consequences become more apparent on 2:12:18.440 --> 2:12:22.080 the sacrifice zones of the periphery. The powers that beyond 2:12:22.400 --> 2:12:25.600 interested in fixing it. You know, they're going to fortify 2:12:25.680 --> 2:12:29.840 themselves against it through border patrols, through climate walls, through 2:12:29.880 --> 2:12:34.160 militarize disaster response. They're going to double down. 2:12:34.960 --> 2:12:37.720 Yeah, make it harder and harder to see the consequences 2:12:37.800 --> 2:12:44.360 of a excessive consumption of capitalism, like until the levy breaks, 2:12:44.400 --> 2:12:46.640 I guess literally or metaphorically. 2:12:47.400 --> 2:13:01.520 Yep, literally or metaphorically. And I want people to keep 2:13:01.560 --> 2:13:04.800 in mind who are listening. You know, this Qan periphery 2:13:04.960 --> 2:13:07.800 is und just the periphery out there, it's also the 2:13:07.800 --> 2:13:11.760 periphery within that we're talking about in terms of consequences, 2:13:11.800 --> 2:13:16.520 the internal dumping grounds, whether it be you know, indigenous reservations, 2:13:17.360 --> 2:13:21.040 or the neighborhoods of black and round people, or the 2:13:21.120 --> 2:13:25.600 prisons that often serve as the holding tanks for discontent 2:13:25.680 --> 2:13:28.920 and for poverty and for all the nasty consequences that 2:13:29.440 --> 2:13:31.400 society doesn't want to deal with because of the way 2:13:31.440 --> 2:13:32.600 society has been structured. 2:13:33.680 --> 2:13:37.120 Yeah, or just like under the bridge near your house, 2:13:37.240 --> 2:13:38.520 you know, like like we. 2:13:38.600 --> 2:13:40.760 Exactly treat exactly like. 2:13:42.120 --> 2:13:45.600 San Diego has this particular legisative initiative, which I find 2:13:45.720 --> 2:13:50.280 like obviously it's fucked, but also like it's very so 2:13:50.320 --> 2:13:53.600 it's so obvious, like they they passed to think on 2:13:53.720 --> 2:13:56.320 a camping there where they're going to make it illegal 2:13:56.360 --> 2:13:57.160 to be. 2:13:57.000 --> 2:13:58.720 Unhoused on the sidewalk. 2:13:59.040 --> 2:14:01.520 You're like, it's a bad and it's band against camping 2:14:01.640 --> 2:14:05.600 on the sidewalk, right, And all it does it doesn't 2:14:05.640 --> 2:14:09.720 provide housing for people, and that it doesn't solve the issue. 2:14:10.120 --> 2:14:13.280 It moves people. Our cities very hilly and we have 2:14:13.360 --> 2:14:15.920 lots of canyons in which they can't build. It moves 2:14:15.920 --> 2:14:17.280 people into these canyons. 2:14:17.520 --> 2:14:18.440 Wow, and it. 2:14:18.520 --> 2:14:21.280 Just makes the same people invisible, right, Like that's the 2:14:21.360 --> 2:14:24.800 goal that the goal is not to provide any form 2:14:24.840 --> 2:14:29.360 of solution. It's just to move these people away so 2:14:29.400 --> 2:14:32.440 they don't have to be poor in public. And so 2:14:32.640 --> 2:14:37.080 the people who who use homes as a vehicle for 2:14:37.200 --> 2:14:39.680 wealth creation, not as a place for humans to live, 2:14:40.640 --> 2:14:43.200 don't have to see the consequences of their actions. 2:14:44.000 --> 2:14:49.200 Exactly. It's all about what they want, right, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:14:49.280 --> 2:14:52.720 you know, in a sense, depending on how you look 2:14:52.760 --> 2:14:55.800 at it, any one of us can be a core 2:14:56.520 --> 2:14:58.400 and any one of us can be a periphery. You know, 2:14:58.480 --> 2:15:02.000 to our rulers, we are all the periphery that they 2:15:02.000 --> 2:15:06.240 can push their consequences onto. In another sense, you know, 2:15:06.720 --> 2:15:08.920 I am part of the periphery, and do you are 2:15:08.960 --> 2:15:12.400 part of the core, James? And in another sense, you know, 2:15:12.480 --> 2:15:14.080 I might be considered part of the core in my 2:15:14.120 --> 2:15:19.360 own country in some ways because of my class position, 2:15:19.560 --> 2:15:22.280 because of my educational background, because of some of the 2:15:22.320 --> 2:15:26.760 ways that I can be insulated, whereas you know, other ways, 2:15:26.800 --> 2:15:29.360 you know, you might be the periphree in the United States, 2:15:29.720 --> 2:15:32.520 to the core, to the elites, to the ruling class. 2:15:33.320 --> 2:15:36.800 And so this isn't to diminish the very real differences 2:15:36.880 --> 2:15:40.200 between the global core and the global periphery. It's also 2:15:40.240 --> 2:15:42.720 make it clear to those of you in the global 2:15:42.720 --> 2:15:45.160 core that you should be in solidarity with that global 2:15:45.160 --> 2:15:49.560 periphery because their consequences are ultimately your own. You know, 2:15:49.800 --> 2:15:51.760 ultimately we are all the ones who are going to 2:15:51.760 --> 2:15:55.600 be holding the costs, cleaning the mess, surviving the fallout. 2:15:57.800 --> 2:16:00.480 And then it's nothow tough. It is because when you 2:16:00.520 --> 2:16:04.800 live with a system that is based on externalization harm, 2:16:05.040 --> 2:16:07.920 you can end up lashing out on others as well. 2:16:08.480 --> 2:16:11.960 You know that that that logic, that systemic logic becomes 2:16:11.960 --> 2:16:14.000 it o an lies, become as part of how you 2:16:14.120 --> 2:16:17.920 navigate even your relationships. But we don't have to accept 2:16:17.920 --> 2:16:21.240 that way of doing things. The periphery, regardless of which 2:16:21.240 --> 2:16:24.600 prefer you're referring to, does hold the potential for change. 2:16:25.760 --> 2:16:28.440 And so you know, in the beginning, when we were 2:16:28.440 --> 2:16:33.840 speaking of externalization of economic and the economic dimension specifically, 2:16:34.680 --> 2:16:39.080 it's important to understand capitalism relies on these flowers, these 2:16:39.160 --> 2:16:43.240 very smooth flows of labor, energy, and resources and data 2:16:43.840 --> 2:16:47.520 from periferrey to core however you define those terms, and 2:16:47.600 --> 2:16:51.760 so when we interrupt those flows, even briefly, we can 2:16:51.760 --> 2:16:55.960 shake those foundations. And that sort of approached, that effort 2:16:56.040 --> 2:16:59.360 to interrupt, is really part of what social revolution is about. 2:16:59.640 --> 2:17:02.600 It's how we make the changes that we want to see. Yeah, 2:17:02.640 --> 2:17:06.280 you know, I speak a social revolution as not some 2:17:06.959 --> 2:17:12.640 flashy one time event or moment in history, but as 2:17:12.680 --> 2:17:15.280 an ongoing process, as something that is taking place right 2:17:15.320 --> 2:17:19.040 now at different levels, in different ways all over the world. 2:17:19.480 --> 2:17:21.039 And so we can speak of the things we do 2:17:21.200 --> 2:17:26.680 to oppose the current system, like these strikes and blockades 2:17:27.120 --> 2:17:30.720 that have taken place around the world, the indigenous land 2:17:30.720 --> 2:17:32.960 defense struggles that are taking place around the world, they 2:17:33.080 --> 2:17:36.600 rent strikes and mutual aid that have taken place around 2:17:36.640 --> 2:17:41.680 the world. And then beyond that sort of opposition, talking 2:17:41.680 --> 2:17:43.879 about the things we do to propose and alternative to 2:17:43.920 --> 2:17:46.400 construct the kind of world and the kind of life 2:17:47.200 --> 2:17:48.680 that we need so we don't have to rely on 2:17:48.720 --> 2:17:52.720 these systems anymore, that exploit us, to make these systems obsolete, 2:17:53.520 --> 2:17:57.359 to build the cooperatives, to build work a control, collectives 2:17:57.360 --> 2:18:00.640 and disaster response outside of the state, to sort of 2:18:00.760 --> 2:18:04.800 crack the system, and to create in those cracks the 2:18:04.840 --> 2:18:09.320 space where a different system, a new life can grue. Yeah, 2:18:09.680 --> 2:18:16.440 to not become one big machine or one centralized struggle 2:18:16.560 --> 2:18:21.160 or movement, but to multiply and interconnect and adapt to 2:18:21.360 --> 2:18:25.600 the niche circumstances we're all dealing with, like my celium, 2:18:26.280 --> 2:18:27.640 you know, like the mushrooms. 2:18:28.320 --> 2:18:32.240 Yeah, yeah, that technology, Like it's sort of you're like 2:18:32.280 --> 2:18:37.039 opening a crack thing paraphrases Zappatista texts right like and 2:18:37.120 --> 2:18:40.600 they have this either just phrase I like from Supermandente Marcos. 2:18:40.600 --> 2:18:44.039 That translates just like, we don't have to change the 2:18:44.080 --> 2:18:47.120 world because we're building another one right now, and you 2:18:47.160 --> 2:18:48.920 know you don't have to we don't have to conquer. 2:18:49.360 --> 2:18:53.359 Like there's this obsession on the left with like revolutionists, 2:18:53.560 --> 2:18:55.879 like you said, like an act that occurs at a 2:18:55.920 --> 2:18:56.360 point in. 2:18:56.360 --> 2:18:58.480 Time capital r revolution. 2:18:58.959 --> 2:19:03.440 Yes, yeah, as opposed to like building the world where 2:19:03.480 --> 2:19:05.840 the things that we don't wish to see become irrelevant 2:19:06.040 --> 2:19:09.760 through our actions every day. Like you use the example 2:19:09.879 --> 2:19:12.800 of people being an house, which I mentioned before, right, 2:19:12.879 --> 2:19:16.040 Like the way we build a world where those people 2:19:16.040 --> 2:19:20.920 aren't externalized is by not externalizing those people. Like you know, 2:19:20.959 --> 2:19:24.600 it's not hard to do. You probably talk to human 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:29.120 beings every day anyway. Just continue to do that, you know, 2:19:29.200 --> 2:19:32.720 take your neighbor a sandwich, and like that's the revolution 2:19:32.840 --> 2:19:36.600 that you can build slowly, and maybe it's not as exciting. 2:19:37.240 --> 2:19:42.040 It's like, you know, the one way you I've attended 2:19:42.080 --> 2:19:45.440 the revolutions where people fight against the state, but you 2:19:45.520 --> 2:19:47.360 still have to do the hard work. You still have 2:19:47.400 --> 2:19:49.959 to do that, like day to day building of a 2:19:49.959 --> 2:19:52.760 different way of relating to one another, even in those 2:19:52.840 --> 2:19:56.080 revolutions where things change quickly and violently exactly. 2:19:56.520 --> 2:19:58.959 Yeah, yeah, and I mean even before we get to 2:19:59.000 --> 2:20:01.560 that point you know, to be able to change the 2:20:01.560 --> 2:20:04.160 way relate to each other. It starts with mindset, It 2:20:04.240 --> 2:20:09.440 starts with shifting our realm or possibility is, you know, 2:20:10.040 --> 2:20:13.320 not necessarily killing the memes of capitalism, and I mean 2:20:13.680 --> 2:20:17.560 memes in the sensor. Richard Dawkins originally use the term 2:20:17.720 --> 2:20:20.879 as these cultural ideas that persist, that spread, that adapt 2:20:21.400 --> 2:20:24.600 It's difficult to kill those those memes, but you can 2:20:24.720 --> 2:20:29.160 replace them with better memes. And so replacing and popularizing 2:20:29.200 --> 2:20:33.760 those memes, those ideas, you are challenging the idea that 2:20:34.360 --> 2:20:37.960 you know rest is laziness, you know, challenging the idea 2:20:38.080 --> 2:20:41.280 that you know the end goal is profit, that there's 2:20:41.400 --> 2:20:44.160 no other system besides Catholics, and that that's something better 2:20:44.280 --> 2:20:47.720 isn't on the horizon. Shift in that sense reality, I 2:20:47.720 --> 2:20:50.680 think is a very important part of the struggle, and 2:20:50.760 --> 2:20:53.920 with every act, because I think ideas have to be 2:20:53.920 --> 2:20:57.600 accompanied by act. With every act, I think it helps 2:20:57.600 --> 2:21:02.200 to break the spell, to cut off, to put an 2:21:02.360 --> 2:21:06.480 end to that externalization. Because even though capitalists and will 2:21:06.520 --> 2:21:09.720 continue to try to push its arm outward and downward, 2:21:09.760 --> 2:21:13.240 are we and away from view, we can continue to 2:21:13.360 --> 2:21:17.640 challenge it inwardly, to push our struggle upward and to 2:21:17.760 --> 2:21:21.240 center our struggle in the center of view so we 2:21:21.280 --> 2:21:22.959 can see it, so that we can feel us, and 2:21:23.000 --> 2:21:26.640 so that we can act against it. And that's all 2:21:26.640 --> 2:21:31.560 I have for this episode. All forward to all the people. Peace. 2:21:52.760 --> 2:21:55.480 This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Today 2:21:55.480 --> 2:21:58.600 I'm joined by Mia Wong. I am reporting from the 2:21:58.800 --> 2:22:03.920 beautiful and side People's Republic of New York City, and 2:22:03.959 --> 2:22:08.000 we are Zoe back. It is Clover Dimes Squares on 2:22:08.080 --> 2:22:14.119 Suicide Watch. Zomentum is sweeping the nation. Zoronimum Donni has 2:22:14.360 --> 2:22:18.920 won the Democratic primary for the mayor of New York City, 2:22:19.000 --> 2:22:24.200 beating veterans sexual harasser Andrew Cuomo. It was it was 2:22:24.280 --> 2:22:26.800 quite a night in New York last night. We are 2:22:26.879 --> 2:22:32.000 recording this Wednesday morning. The final ranked vote will be 2:22:32.080 --> 2:22:35.920 done in about a week, but Cuomo has conceded the 2:22:36.000 --> 2:22:40.080 race to Zoron, who has declared a pretty decisive victory. 2:22:40.400 --> 2:22:43.880 It's been very funny seeing the dashing weeping of the 2:22:43.959 --> 2:22:46.440 Quotmo camp has been very funny. New York has officially 2:22:46.480 --> 2:22:48.800 been upgraded from a Tier two to a Tier one 2:22:48.800 --> 2:22:51.920 point five. Chinese City given give it another decade, it'll 2:22:52.400 --> 2:22:54.160 it will have entered Chinese civilization. 2:22:55.280 --> 2:22:58.280 The vibes are good. The vibes are good. Well. 2:22:58.440 --> 2:23:00.400 The only difference is that now we will have an 2:23:00.480 --> 2:23:04.039 actually communist government in a city instead of the fake 2:23:04.120 --> 2:23:07.600 state capitalist governments of the Chinese mega. 2:23:07.400 --> 2:23:13.640 City objectively more communists to one point five chety city government. 2:23:15.360 --> 2:23:16.720 An American bogeeli. 2:23:17.560 --> 2:23:17.720 Uh. 2:23:18.360 --> 2:23:20.320 It was. It was a pretty exciting night in New 2:23:20.360 --> 2:23:21.120 York last night. 2:23:21.240 --> 2:23:25.560 I and many people were not expecting a clear result 2:23:25.720 --> 2:23:29.360 so soon. I think Cuomo conceded around ten to thirty 2:23:29.959 --> 2:23:32.520 as the boat was still coming in, but it was 2:23:32.680 --> 2:23:37.000 pretty clear that Zoron did a like very very impressive, 2:23:37.760 --> 2:23:42.440 very impressive sweep, really solid turnout across the boroughs, just 2:23:42.480 --> 2:23:44.640 to like get a sense of like where we were at. 2:23:44.680 --> 2:23:48.520 Like I got to announce to a pretty pretty large 2:23:48.600 --> 2:23:51.959 room full of trans people at the Metropolitan Bar that 2:23:52.040 --> 2:23:55.720 Cuomo conceded to Zoron, and Zoron has won. And I 2:23:55.800 --> 2:23:59.680 had not felt better in months. It was really in 2:23:59.720 --> 2:24:03.000 big rating Is was like the first like ray of 2:24:03.080 --> 2:24:06.119 hope in a political sense that I've that that it's 2:24:06.120 --> 2:24:09.480 been like so deeply felt. Nothing ever happens. Camp Is 2:24:09.720 --> 2:24:11.840 Is is finally finally taking. 2:24:11.560 --> 2:24:16.440 It so jover for nothing ever happens the shear, the 2:24:16.480 --> 2:24:20.959 sheer like joy and excitement being in like a room 2:24:21.000 --> 2:24:24.640 of like one hundred, one hundred queer people, as as 2:24:24.800 --> 2:24:28.440 as Cuomo gets defeated and so on securing the primary, 2:24:28.879 --> 2:24:31.360 it was it was just infigurating. 2:24:32.160 --> 2:24:34.480 In many ways, this feels a lot bigger than even 2:24:34.560 --> 2:24:38.640 like AOC's win a few years ago. And it feels 2:24:38.680 --> 2:24:41.480 so much more real than like the Sanders campaign really 2:24:41.520 --> 2:24:44.240 ever did, because New York is such as like as 2:24:44.240 --> 2:24:47.720 such a condensed concentrated area. Now it has not quite 2:24:47.760 --> 2:24:51.160 like an inevitability but of a pretty a pretty strong 2:24:51.240 --> 2:24:54.480 certainty of of what's going to happen come November in 2:24:54.560 --> 2:24:55.400 the general election. 2:24:56.120 --> 2:24:59.120 Yeah, And I think the thing that's maybe in some 2:24:59.160 --> 2:25:01.040 ways the biggest deal about this is that New York 2:25:01.240 --> 2:25:05.200 was like the capital of the giant sort of right 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:09.440 wing backlash inside the Democratic Party to twenty twenty. Yeah, right, 2:25:09.800 --> 2:25:11.440 like this is the city that elected Eric Adams in 2:25:11.440 --> 2:25:12.119 twenty twenty one. 2:25:12.240 --> 2:25:12.920 Right, like it just. 2:25:12.920 --> 2:25:16.400 Straight up a cop is ruled for like four years 2:25:16.440 --> 2:25:21.920 by just like this unhinged, corrupt alliance of like fucking 2:25:21.920 --> 2:25:26.200 real estate developers and like unhinged right wing billionaires and 2:25:26.320 --> 2:25:30.640 the cops who ran this really really effective sort of 2:25:30.840 --> 2:25:33.640 politics of like the demonization of unhoused people and like 2:25:33.680 --> 2:25:37.400 anti immigrant politics, and the shift right in this in 2:25:37.400 --> 2:25:40.480 the Neu Democratic Party like single handedly shifted the entire 2:25:40.520 --> 2:25:42.800 country to the right. You could literally see where the 2:25:42.840 --> 2:25:45.800 New York media market was in the twenty twenty two elections. 2:25:45.840 --> 2:25:48.320 You could see on the map who was getting the 2:25:48.360 --> 2:25:51.320 news because it was so right wing. And that's just broken. 2:25:51.959 --> 2:25:54.120 That whole thing, Like this place was just which was 2:25:54.160 --> 2:25:56.760 like the capital of of the kind of revolution broke 2:25:57.920 --> 2:26:00.240 and that whole tide like you can it's you know, 2:26:00.280 --> 2:26:02.840 in the same way that like Hunters Thompson talked about 2:26:02.840 --> 2:26:04.440 how you could see like you could see them with 2:26:04.480 --> 2:26:06.440 the tide of the sixties broke standing in Vegas, Like 2:26:07.160 --> 2:26:09.920 sitting here right now, you can see the place where 2:26:09.959 --> 2:26:13.240 the tide of that right wing surge in New York broke. 2:26:13.400 --> 2:26:16.440 And it was last night we saw their high points. Yeah, 2:26:16.480 --> 2:26:19.280 they couldn't elect the fucking sexual predator. That was as 2:26:19.280 --> 2:26:20.200 far as they could go. 2:26:20.560 --> 2:26:22.080 A Cuomo too, Like like. 2:26:23.840 --> 2:26:25.800 I know some people are slightly annoyed about like the 2:26:25.800 --> 2:26:30.080 outsized influence of the New York mayoral election, affecting everybody 2:26:30.879 --> 2:26:33.920 who's like online and cares about politics in the United 2:26:33.959 --> 2:26:39.400 States and even even abroad. But this is like not 2:26:39.400 --> 2:26:40.920 not only as New York, like the biggest city in 2:26:40.959 --> 2:26:45.080 the country. This is like more so a representative battle 2:26:45.240 --> 2:26:47.440 for the future of the party and like what the 2:26:47.480 --> 2:26:51.320 future of democratic politics, not just the Democratic Party but 2:26:51.400 --> 2:26:54.280 literally like like democracies and like what the future of 2:26:54.320 --> 2:26:56.520 politics in this country is going to be is kind 2:26:56.520 --> 2:27:00.720 of emblematic over how this race went. Are we going 2:27:00.800 --> 2:27:03.800 to go back to like the same old establishment dem 2:27:03.879 --> 2:27:08.840 Party stuff, Clinton's Cuomos, Obama, Biden Harris, or are we 2:27:08.879 --> 2:27:12.280 actually going to legitimately chart a new course forward to 2:27:12.520 --> 2:27:17.440 counter this fascist element taking power across the country and 2:27:18.000 --> 2:27:22.440 against nearly all odds and like thirty million dollars, the 2:27:22.560 --> 2:27:26.680 underdogs actually would and pulled it off really strongly, And 2:27:26.840 --> 2:27:28.600 this really is like the battle for the future of 2:27:28.640 --> 2:27:31.200 the party. Early turnout was massive for this primary. In 2:27:31.240 --> 2:27:34.160 the final three days of early voting, we saw like 2:27:34.200 --> 2:27:38.240 the youngest demographic of voters come out in high high numbers. 2:27:38.879 --> 2:27:42.560 One quarter of early voters were first time Democratic primary participants. 2:27:43.000 --> 2:27:44.800 And young voters between the ages of twenty five and 2:27:44.840 --> 2:27:48.520 thirty four made up the largest share of early turnout. 2:27:49.080 --> 2:27:51.760 And this was all up against the entire forces of 2:27:51.800 --> 2:27:56.039 the Democratic Party establishment coming together in the past few months, 2:27:56.320 --> 2:28:00.840 just specifically to stop Mamdani from taking the primary election. 2:28:01.360 --> 2:28:04.000 There was twenty five million dollars of super pac funding 2:28:04.040 --> 2:28:07.600 behind Andrew Cuomo, which is the largest in New York 2:28:07.680 --> 2:28:11.480 City mayoral history. This pack was backed by Michael Bloomberg, 2:28:11.640 --> 2:28:15.480 Door Dash, Bill Ackman Trump funder and this pack allowed 2:28:15.560 --> 2:28:18.360 Cuomo backers to spend three times as much money than 2:28:18.440 --> 2:28:23.760 what Quomo's actual campaign legally can. In comparison, Mamdanie's pack 2:28:23.840 --> 2:28:26.800 had just one point two million dollars plus five hundred 2:28:26.959 --> 2:28:31.160 thousand in anti Cuomo spending from the Working Families Party. 2:28:32.160 --> 2:28:36.280 In an attempt to seal the deal, the Cuomo team 2:28:36.800 --> 2:28:41.959 got the coveted Bill Clinton endorsement, really really forming like 2:28:42.120 --> 2:28:47.599 the Toucher's alliance with Cuomo and Clinton, Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton. 2:28:47.360 --> 2:28:49.880 There's one more sex pens for you to endorse. It's 2:28:49.920 --> 2:28:55.320 time for you to endorse Donald Trump. What world job 2:28:55.840 --> 2:28:56.520 that like? 2:28:56.560 --> 2:28:59.760 That that really was like emblematic of like the type 2:28:59.760 --> 2:29:02.879 of democratic party that Mamdani was up against, right, and 2:29:02.920 --> 2:29:05.760 the one that working people of New York and people 2:29:05.760 --> 2:29:09.920 around the country we're hoping might finally get defeated after 2:29:09.959 --> 2:29:12.600 it's won one over on Sanders for the past like 2:29:12.760 --> 2:29:17.160 eight years, and last night it finally happened. 2:29:17.720 --> 2:29:17.920 Yeah. 2:29:18.040 --> 2:29:20.200 And I also want to say, like this is not 2:29:20.360 --> 2:29:23.240 just when we're talking about the sort of political apparatus 2:29:23.280 --> 2:29:26.240 to the Democratic Party being deployed in support of Cuomo. 2:29:26.720 --> 2:29:29.640 It wasn't just like the DoorDash guys like bringing out 2:29:29.680 --> 2:29:33.920 their checkbook. It was like the actual internal political machines 2:29:33.959 --> 2:29:36.520 of a whole bunch of very very important and influential 2:29:37.160 --> 2:29:40.360 local and sort of mid level political officials through their 2:29:40.560 --> 2:29:45.000 entire political machines behind Cuomo and then got fucking rolled 2:29:45.879 --> 2:29:50.520 in ways that are just absolutely hysterical. Entire political machines 2:29:50.560 --> 2:29:54.400 basically just got annihilated trying to stop this. 2:29:54.560 --> 2:29:54.800 It was. 2:29:55.080 --> 2:29:57.120 It reminds me in a lot of ways of like 2:29:57.240 --> 2:29:59.240 the way that like a bunch of the old machines 2:29:59.320 --> 2:30:03.280 broke in in Chicago with with Brandon Johnson were like 2:30:03.280 --> 2:30:05.800 you had like Mike Madigan making one last appearance the 2:30:05.800 --> 2:30:08.959 most powerful figure in Illinois politics for thirty years and 2:30:09.080 --> 2:30:13.720 just gets crushed in that election. So this was both 2:30:13.760 --> 2:30:17.119 a money efforts and a we're using our political machines 2:30:17.120 --> 2:30:18.280 on the ground to try to do this, and they 2:30:18.440 --> 2:30:20.080 fucking lost. 2:30:20.320 --> 2:30:21.199 And it rules. 2:30:22.080 --> 2:30:25.160 They were photo shopping images of Zoron to make him 2:30:25.200 --> 2:30:28.760 look more brown and muslimah. They were making its beard longer, 2:30:28.800 --> 2:30:31.600 they were making his skin and his hairy darker. Like, 2:30:31.680 --> 2:30:35.400 they were pulling out all the stops and it didn't work. 2:30:35.720 --> 2:30:37.959 It was like Clinton two thousand and eight, like Barack 2:30:38.000 --> 2:30:41.360 Hussein Obama, like burther conspiracy shit. Yeah, like, that's the 2:30:41.440 --> 2:30:44.280 last time I remember this party being this racist, like 2:30:44.600 --> 2:30:45.880 very specifically in these lines. 2:30:45.879 --> 2:30:48.480 And it failed, and it didn't work. It failed. 2:30:49.280 --> 2:30:51.800 We'll talk about some of the actual results and Zoron's 2:30:51.840 --> 2:31:05.840 campaign itself after this break. All right, we are back. 2:31:06.240 --> 2:31:08.760 It's a beautiful sunny day in New York. It's actually 2:31:08.879 --> 2:31:13.480 way too hot. There's a massive heat wave going through 2:31:13.520 --> 2:31:16.080 the entire East coast. New York has been like one 2:31:16.160 --> 2:31:19.240 hundred degrees the past few days. Thank god, it was 2:31:19.280 --> 2:31:21.640 one hundred degrees on the day of the election. It 2:31:21.720 --> 2:31:25.840 kept all those Cuomo supporters home. We're calling him Mandate 2:31:25.879 --> 2:31:29.880 of Heaven Mandani, good stuff. So let's let's let's talk 2:31:29.920 --> 2:31:33.520 about the actual results so far. So as as of 2:31:33.560 --> 2:31:35.400 this morning, Wednesday morning, we got ninety three percent of 2:31:35.400 --> 2:31:38.320 the vote in on the first rank, Mondanni has forty 2:31:38.360 --> 2:31:42.320 three point five percent versus Cuomo's thirty six point four 2:31:43.200 --> 2:31:47.959 and Zoran ally brad Lander with eleven point three followed 2:31:47.959 --> 2:31:51.400 by a whole bunch of others. Now, really, as soon 2:31:51.440 --> 2:31:54.080 as like numbers started coming in, like after the early vote, 2:31:54.080 --> 2:31:56.920 which which we expected would lean in favor of Zoran, 2:31:57.000 --> 2:32:00.880 but after more and more results started coming in, Manhattan 2:32:01.000 --> 2:32:03.360 started to looking more and more orange. And that's the 2:32:03.480 --> 2:32:06.600 that's color at the times as using for Zoron. And 2:32:06.959 --> 2:32:10.640 this was the first like sign for me that Zora 2:32:10.720 --> 2:32:12.960 might be having a pretty good night, because people were 2:32:12.959 --> 2:32:16.320 expecting that, you know, pretty big chunks of Manhattan and 2:32:16.360 --> 2:32:18.720 certainly like Staten Island in the Bronx would be would 2:32:18.760 --> 2:32:21.880 be going towards Cuomo decisively, or at least if this, 2:32:22.000 --> 2:32:23.640 if this was going to be Cumba's night, that's what 2:32:23.680 --> 2:32:27.320 we would be seeing. And that's not what happened. The 2:32:27.360 --> 2:32:30.160 northern tip of Staten Island leaning towards mom Donnie and 2:32:30.959 --> 2:32:35.080 really most of Manhattan except for the Upper west Side 2:32:35.080 --> 2:32:38.960 and the Upper east Side went to Zoron. And that 2:32:39.120 --> 2:32:43.039 is like super super I guess, like surprising, but like 2:32:43.120 --> 2:32:45.640 positive surprise, like surprisingly, this is this is like this 2:32:45.720 --> 2:32:48.360 is great. Yeah, like a really really strong night. 2:32:48.800 --> 2:32:49.000 Yeah. 2:32:49.280 --> 2:32:51.000 One of the most interesting trends of this was that 2:32:51.080 --> 2:32:55.800 Mandanny just just absolutely annihilated like every Asian district up 2:32:55.920 --> 2:32:59.680 up fifteen, up fifteen and not Okay, so you would 2:32:59.760 --> 2:33:03.000 kind of expect this in South Asian districts. He went 2:33:03.160 --> 2:33:08.000 into a bunch of what are generally pretty conservative, like 2:33:08.000 --> 2:33:11.480 like Chinese districts and like Queens and shit, and just 2:33:11.640 --> 2:33:13.359 fucking rolled them. 2:33:13.480 --> 2:33:16.000 Yeah, Like in like South Brooklyn. 2:33:15.680 --> 2:33:17.520 Like a very very powerful sort of like right wing 2:33:17.600 --> 2:33:20.320 Chinese political machine like went to war against him, just annihilated. 2:33:20.800 --> 2:33:21.000 Right. 2:33:21.320 --> 2:33:24.119 The Asian vote in general had kind of been trending 2:33:24.200 --> 2:33:26.440 right in the last half a decade based on sort 2:33:26.480 --> 2:33:29.840 of like anti immigrant shit, anti homeless shit and all 2:33:29.879 --> 2:33:32.480 of that. Just like instantly pivoted. 2:33:32.120 --> 2:33:35.440 Everything's out of astoria in Queens just just full full 2:33:35.480 --> 2:33:38.320 zor On. Yeah, and like just rolled these districts. 2:33:38.720 --> 2:33:41.080 And I think this is a thing where I think 2:33:41.080 --> 2:33:42.640 We're gonna talk more about the ice stuff later, but 2:33:42.680 --> 2:33:44.440 I genuinely think part of what we're starting to see 2:33:44.480 --> 2:33:45.920 here is like. 2:33:45.600 --> 2:33:49.440 Brad Lander, who the MVP brad Lander honestly like like 2:33:49.520 --> 2:33:52.160 a critical part of this who knows to him like absolutely, 2:33:52.280 --> 2:33:54.400 like we certainly have different opinions on some key issues, 2:33:54.800 --> 2:33:57.520 but he really pulled out the stops to make sure 2:33:57.560 --> 2:33:59.800 that Cuomo does not get in, yeah, and helped him 2:34:00.200 --> 2:34:04.080 defend against them pretty pretty horrific yeah, is homophobic attacks. 2:34:04.080 --> 2:34:06.400 Yeah, and like, and that alliance I think was actually 2:34:06.400 --> 2:34:09.120 was really really important because it meant that the kind 2:34:09.120 --> 2:34:12.800 of like left flank of the liberals and the progressives 2:34:12.800 --> 2:34:14.760 and sort of social democrats weren't fighting each other, which 2:34:14.800 --> 2:34:17.080 has been what's happening and like fucking every other city 2:34:17.320 --> 2:34:18.920 is that these two factions go to war and then 2:34:18.959 --> 2:34:22.680 like just the fucking sex predators win the election because 2:34:22.720 --> 2:34:25.360 of it, and shere you get a very very important 2:34:25.360 --> 2:34:28.200 strategic alliance that allows a bunch of people to vote 2:34:28.200 --> 2:34:33.400 for Mamdani who wouldn't have. And this this sort of 2:34:33.600 --> 2:34:39.000 alliance that they've forged here was just like stunningly successful, 2:34:39.040 --> 2:34:43.320 basically like outperformed expectations basically everywhere. I think this is 2:34:43.320 --> 2:34:45.760 also a kind of decisive anti ice thing because both 2:34:45.800 --> 2:34:49.000 Mamdanni and Lander have been actually straight up on the 2:34:49.000 --> 2:34:53.040 front lines of like anti ice stuff. Lander famously got 2:34:53.120 --> 2:34:56.600 arrested for trying to get in the way of a 2:34:56.800 --> 2:35:01.320 just hideously illegal disappearance of Uffish constituents and got fucking 2:35:01.400 --> 2:35:04.680 arrested for it. And I think that stuff we're seeing 2:35:04.680 --> 2:35:08.200 the political impacts of everyone being like, holy shit, they're 2:35:08.200 --> 2:35:10.360 trying to deport like every nu migration in this country. 2:35:10.440 --> 2:35:10.760 Yeah. 2:35:10.959 --> 2:35:14.640 Madanni up six points with the Hispanic up five with 2:35:14.840 --> 2:35:20.680 white plus fifteen Asian. Quomo is is up eighteen percent 2:35:20.760 --> 2:35:22.320 with the black vote. 2:35:22.040 --> 2:35:24.879 And Quomo like underperformed there too, he did underperform. 2:35:25.000 --> 2:35:25.320 Yeah. 2:35:25.480 --> 2:35:30.400 One thing that's interesting is the medium income levels. Madani 2:35:30.440 --> 2:35:35.280 did better with middle class and high income vote middle 2:35:35.280 --> 2:35:39.280 class up ten, high income up thirteen, whereas Cuomo did 2:35:39.520 --> 2:35:43.400 better up thirteen with lower income, Which I mean, this 2:35:43.480 --> 2:35:45.600 is like some classic We see this a lot in 2:35:45.600 --> 2:35:50.039 like national elections, where like people vote against their own interests. 2:35:50.440 --> 2:35:51.040 This is weird. 2:35:51.560 --> 2:35:54.680 This is like what the Republican Party gets so much 2:35:54.680 --> 2:35:58.160 of their support from. So this is also like education 2:35:58.240 --> 2:35:59.039 bracket difference. 2:35:59.160 --> 2:36:00.600 Yeah, and I think some of it also is like 2:36:00.680 --> 2:36:02.560 a lot of the voters who would have voted vandor 2:36:02.640 --> 2:36:06.520 and would not have supported Mondani like were given permission 2:36:06.560 --> 2:36:09.520 to back him, and that boosted his vote share a lot. 2:36:09.959 --> 2:36:12.480 Yes, But like in terms of like why lower income 2:36:12.560 --> 2:36:15.760 is swinging towards Cuomo, Yeah, specifically people making under fifty 2:36:15.840 --> 2:36:19.760 k year swinging more towards Cuomo, even though Zoran is 2:36:19.840 --> 2:36:23.360 running a campaign specifically for those people that is also 2:36:23.480 --> 2:36:24.600 largely up in the bronx. 2:36:24.920 --> 2:36:27.360 I will also say, like, the other thing that's very 2:36:27.400 --> 2:36:29.680 weird about the way these are tabulated is because it's 2:36:29.879 --> 2:36:33.560 it's tabulated by area, not by the actual people, yes, correct, 2:36:33.600 --> 2:36:36.560 which means you can get these things where like you 2:36:36.600 --> 2:36:39.160 see this Trump sometimes where like it looks like he's 2:36:39.160 --> 2:36:41.720 doing really well in like a district with like a 2:36:41.760 --> 2:36:44.680 really with like really low median income. But what's happening 2:36:44.720 --> 2:36:46.920 is like every single rich person in that district voted 2:36:46.959 --> 2:36:49.760 and then no one else did. Yeah, So the numbers 2:36:49.800 --> 2:36:52.560 are a bit weird when when when you're looking at 2:36:52.560 --> 2:36:55.240 these sort of like priestin counts. Yeah, votes, but yeah, 2:36:55.320 --> 2:36:56.960 it's it's been a I don't know it's a it 2:36:57.040 --> 2:36:59.039 is a constant trend in the Bara Ohough, I guess 2:36:59.040 --> 2:37:01.520 this is everything that was actually very very different from Chicago, 2:37:01.600 --> 2:37:04.879 where in Chicago it was like basically pure income line 2:37:04.920 --> 2:37:09.199 for Brandon Johnson, the sort of like vaguely left person. 2:37:09.879 --> 2:37:13.480 There is like New York is a very like middle 2:37:13.520 --> 2:37:15.680 class city in a lot of ways, Like there's a 2:37:15.800 --> 2:37:19.039 lot of people in the middle class bracket, a lot 2:37:19.080 --> 2:37:21.120 of people in the lower class bracket as well, but 2:37:21.280 --> 2:37:23.560 in terms of like like medium income levels, there's like 2:37:23.600 --> 2:37:27.400 a huge, huge number of like middle class voters. Specifically, 2:37:27.440 --> 2:37:30.200 like the vote map for the for the middle income 2:37:30.760 --> 2:37:35.519 is so much bigger. I think it is worth highlighting 2:37:36.000 --> 2:37:40.199 what made Zorn's campaign special right, Like people are probably 2:37:40.200 --> 2:37:43.520 pretty familiar with like the slick videos, which yeah, he 2:37:43.560 --> 2:37:46.480 was really good at making videos. He is a great communicator, 2:37:46.520 --> 2:37:50.200 probably his biggest, like biggest strength is his ability to 2:37:50.240 --> 2:37:53.640 be like personable and is of just a pretty good 2:37:53.720 --> 2:37:57.920 public speakers, great at communication. His mom's a relatively well 2:37:57.959 --> 2:38:00.960 known filmmaker, and not super surprising that he put he 2:38:01.000 --> 2:38:03.480 put a lot of work into making sure his like 2:38:03.840 --> 2:38:07.320 online TV ads were like top notch. One of the 2:38:07.360 --> 2:38:09.879 more unique things that he did is a huge focus 2:38:09.920 --> 2:38:13.840 on multi language outreach, which like, obviously New York is 2:38:13.840 --> 2:38:17.480 a city of like dozens and dozens and dozens of languages, 2:38:17.920 --> 2:38:22.080 and the Quoto campaign did not focus on that, but 2:38:22.160 --> 2:38:25.440 this was a huge, huge focus of Zoron's campaign. Like, 2:38:25.640 --> 2:38:27.520 when you signed up for phone banking, you got to 2:38:27.560 --> 2:38:31.520 go through a massive dropdown menu of languages to phone banking, 2:38:32.000 --> 2:38:35.640 and Zoron himself was like speaking multiple languages. On the 2:38:35.720 --> 2:38:39.920 campaign trail, he had a huge, huge volunteer ground game. 2:38:40.000 --> 2:38:43.760 It was canvassing door Knox phone banking. My apartment had 2:38:43.800 --> 2:38:46.520 people stop in multiple times in the past week alone. 2:38:47.280 --> 2:38:50.240 The biggest focus of his campaign itself was a focus 2:38:50.280 --> 2:38:53.720 on affordability. I want to Play a ad that started 2:38:53.800 --> 2:38:56.920 running on TV and online about two weeks ago. This 2:38:57.000 --> 2:38:58.880 is one of his less personal ads, right, like as 2:38:58.879 --> 2:39:00.640 opposed to his ads where he's like talking around New 2:39:00.760 --> 2:39:03.880 York talking to people, like addressing straight to camera, that 2:39:03.959 --> 2:39:05.480 kind of stuff, which is kind of in the staple 2:39:05.520 --> 2:39:08.160 of his campaign. So like, this ad is not that 2:39:08.280 --> 2:39:10.960 it is more like a classic political ad, but I 2:39:10.959 --> 2:39:14.959 think it still hits really hard. And this one like 2:39:15.400 --> 2:39:18.400 kind of brain wormed itself. Into my head because of 2:39:18.440 --> 2:39:21.840 how like concise it is, and it hits so many 2:39:21.879 --> 2:39:25.039 things that even because of the last like general election, 2:39:25.120 --> 2:39:28.440 right like the twenty twenty four presidential It reflects the 2:39:28.480 --> 2:39:30.320 things that a lot of voters are concerned about, which 2:39:30.360 --> 2:39:32.840 is affordability, even if that means they will vote against 2:39:32.879 --> 2:39:36.039 their interests and vote in support of these like crazy tariffs. 2:39:36.360 --> 2:39:38.960 But I'm going to play this thirty second ad here. 2:39:39.720 --> 2:39:41.520 There is a myth about this city. 2:39:41.600 --> 2:39:45.080 It's the lie that life has to be hard in 2:39:45.120 --> 2:39:48.320 New York. I believe we can guarantee cheaper groceries, we 2:39:48.360 --> 2:39:51.240 can raise the minimum wage, we can freeze the rent 2:39:51.240 --> 2:39:51.720 for more. 2:39:51.600 --> 2:39:53.320 Than two million tenants and. 2:39:53.320 --> 2:39:57.360 Build hundreds of thousands of affordable homes. It city government's 2:39:57.480 --> 2:40:01.520 job to deliver that. We are done settling for less. 2:40:02.120 --> 2:40:03.920 Are you ready for a city we can. 2:40:03.720 --> 2:40:05.680 Afford a. 2:40:08.040 --> 2:40:08.280 Rising? 2:40:08.320 --> 2:40:09.160 Went Thromlicus. 2:40:10.320 --> 2:40:12.280 So that was the main app that's been going across 2:40:12.360 --> 2:40:15.600 TV the past two weeks. This is this is his 2:40:15.720 --> 2:40:19.440 like final final push, and it addresses this like a 2:40:19.480 --> 2:40:21.640 conception of New York that's definitely been in my mind 2:40:21.640 --> 2:40:22.960 ever since I was a kid. I always thought this 2:40:23.040 --> 2:40:24.840 is a thing you can only live in if you're 2:40:24.879 --> 2:40:27.360 you know, very rich, if you're well off, and like, 2:40:27.920 --> 2:40:30.240 upon visiting here for the first time, I just realized 2:40:30.280 --> 2:40:31.920 how much that isn't true, how much this is like 2:40:31.959 --> 2:40:34.720 actually a working class city. How many people keep this 2:40:34.879 --> 2:40:38.640 massive like concrete machine running who do not live in 2:40:38.720 --> 2:40:41.920 like a Manhattan pent house. Obviously, and yes it can 2:40:41.959 --> 2:40:45.680 be challenging, but we've like almost abandoned this place as 2:40:45.680 --> 2:40:48.520 like a zone of combat, as like a place to 2:40:48.560 --> 2:40:52.400 actually like build like an affordable, an affordable, stable life. 2:40:52.640 --> 2:40:55.640 And to see a candidate just directly address this is 2:40:56.240 --> 2:41:00.480 so invigorating. He ran on freezing the rent, free buses, 2:41:00.520 --> 2:41:03.400 a pilot program for city run grocery stores, free to 2:41:03.440 --> 2:41:07.000 low cost childcare, raising minimum wage, and he didn't cave 2:41:07.200 --> 2:41:11.000 or waiver on controversial issues, or apologize or redact for 2:41:11.120 --> 2:41:14.480 past statements. He got really good at deflecting when people 2:41:14.600 --> 2:41:17.680 asked him about like previous statements out about how you know, 2:41:17.879 --> 2:41:21.600 the NYPD is terrible. He did really good about moving 2:41:21.600 --> 2:41:25.000 towards talking about how NYPD should not be handling people 2:41:25.080 --> 2:41:27.240 in like mental health crises, how there should be other 2:41:27.320 --> 2:41:30.240 public safety workers who can help people in distress who 2:41:30.320 --> 2:41:33.800 are not the NYPD and just a very very slick 2:41:33.879 --> 2:41:39.160 job handling some like massive, massive amounts of anti woke attacks, 2:41:39.280 --> 2:41:42.880 referencing like the twenty twenty era of politics. Let's go 2:41:42.920 --> 2:41:46.119 on a break and then talk about his acceptance speech 2:41:46.280 --> 2:42:02.679 and the reaction from the National Democrat and Republican parties. Okay, 2:42:03.080 --> 2:42:10.240 we are so back. So the past few months, Democrats 2:42:10.280 --> 2:42:13.120 have been asking this question like, how do we how 2:42:13.120 --> 2:42:15.400 do we reach young voters, how do we reach the 2:42:15.480 --> 2:42:18.879 young white to male vote. We need like a Joe 2:42:19.000 --> 2:42:20.920 Rogan of the left, all these types of crazy things. 2:42:21.440 --> 2:42:24.800 And you had this guy Zord who started to get 2:42:24.840 --> 2:42:29.280 massively popular with young people, including young young men, and 2:42:29.560 --> 2:42:33.039 that you saw this entire party mobilized to stop him, 2:42:33.120 --> 2:42:37.080 to suppress any any movement that Zora was able to make. 2:42:37.160 --> 2:42:40.879 And David Hogg, who is currently also being. 2:42:40.879 --> 2:42:45.520 Rap fucked by the Democratic National Committee, has been campaigning 2:42:45.560 --> 2:42:48.480 with Zoran the past few weeks, and he he said 2:42:48.520 --> 2:42:50.720 a few days ago, quote, the same establishment that is 2:42:50.720 --> 2:42:53.120 spending millions to destroy Zoron will say in a few 2:42:53.120 --> 2:42:55.200 months that we need to spend millions on polling and 2:42:55.240 --> 2:42:58.920 testing to win back young people. Open your goddamn eyes. 2:42:59.320 --> 2:43:03.520 It's free and yeah, he's right, this is the solution. 2:43:03.640 --> 2:43:05.200 The solution is staring them in the face and they 2:43:05.240 --> 2:43:06.560 were wanting to stop it. 2:43:06.680 --> 2:43:09.200 Yep, young people are begging you to co opt them, 2:43:09.240 --> 2:43:11.520 and they won't do it because they know what they 2:43:11.520 --> 2:43:14.240 would rather have Nazis and one percent higher taxes. 2:43:14.400 --> 2:43:16.160 They want to be co opted. 2:43:16.760 --> 2:43:19.800 And like actually fight for something, like actually have something 2:43:19.840 --> 2:43:23.200 to strive for, and like that's something that the Democrats 2:43:23.240 --> 2:43:26.480 have been so resistant to the past eight years. Like 2:43:26.560 --> 2:43:30.080 even even Joe Biden's campaign wasn't like fighting for anything, 2:43:30.160 --> 2:43:33.200 it was to like return to normal. Kamenthris's campaign wasn't 2:43:33.240 --> 2:43:35.039 really fighting for anything either. It was just to stop 2:43:35.080 --> 2:43:38.039 Donald Trump. And this is like this campaign wasn't just 2:43:38.080 --> 2:43:41.080 about beating Cuomo. It was also about like envisioning an 2:43:41.120 --> 2:43:45.360 actually positive future of the city. And I was legitimately 2:43:45.400 --> 2:43:49.000 surprised that Cuomo conceded so early on. In his speech, 2:43:49.040 --> 2:43:51.400 he said, quote, tonight was not our night, Tonight is 2:43:51.480 --> 2:43:53.039 his night. He deserved it. 2:43:53.360 --> 2:43:54.080 He won. 2:43:55.200 --> 2:43:57.680 And from the moves that Komo's making, it seems like 2:43:57.720 --> 2:44:00.200 he's probably not going to run as an independent in 2:44:00.240 --> 2:44:03.400 the general like he maybe have been planning to if 2:44:03.400 --> 2:44:06.040 it was closer. It does not seem to be going 2:44:06.120 --> 2:44:08.520 that direction. It seems like he's kind of realized that 2:44:08.640 --> 2:44:10.400 his career is finished. 2:44:10.520 --> 2:44:15.640 Yeah, he got rolled. Go back to the suburbs. Motherfucker. 2:44:16.320 --> 2:44:21.680 Ugh Chuck Schumer called Soharan Wednesday morning and posted quote, 2:44:21.720 --> 2:44:23.920 I've known Zora Mamdnnie since we were together to provide 2:44:23.920 --> 2:44:26.440 a debt relief for thousands of leaguered taxi drivers and 2:44:26.480 --> 2:44:30.359 fought to stop a fracked gas plant in a Storia. 2:44:30.520 --> 2:44:32.880 He ran an impressive campaign that connected with New Yorkers 2:44:32.879 --> 2:44:35.879 about affordability, fairness, and opportunity. I spoke with him this 2:44:35.959 --> 2:44:39.600 morning and I'm looking forward to getting together soon. Alkim 2:44:39.680 --> 2:44:43.480 Jeffries said, congratulations is Zar Mumdanni on a decisive primary victory. 2:44:43.480 --> 2:44:47.040 As having been, Mumdannie ran a strong campaign that relentlessly 2:44:47.080 --> 2:44:49.600 focused on the economy and bringing down the high cost 2:44:49.600 --> 2:44:51.480 of living in New York City. We spoke this morning 2:44:51.480 --> 2:44:54.959 and planned to meet in central Brooklyn shortly. The top 2:44:55.040 --> 2:44:56.840 dogs are bowing down. 2:44:57.320 --> 2:44:59.720 All these Chuck Schub retreats are just straight up Please 2:44:59.760 --> 2:45:02.280 don't primary me because AOC is going to beat him 2:45:02.280 --> 2:45:02.840 by thirty. 2:45:03.040 --> 2:45:05.040 He's gonna get primary like he's done. Who did you 2:45:05.080 --> 2:45:10.160 get obliterated? But I was expecting slightly more resistance, And 2:45:10.240 --> 2:45:13.120 it seems like parts of the Democrats have like realized 2:45:13.160 --> 2:45:14.920 that this actually is the future of the party now 2:45:14.920 --> 2:45:16.280 and there's no use fighting anymore. 2:45:16.360 --> 2:45:17.160 This is the way to go. 2:45:17.520 --> 2:45:19.440 Yes, it goes against what all like the consultants are saying, 2:45:19.480 --> 2:45:22.080 right to be like, you know, the Democrats went too woke, 2:45:22.120 --> 2:45:23.200 we went too far to the left. 2:45:23.200 --> 2:45:24.280 We have to return to the center. 2:45:24.320 --> 2:45:26.480 Even though that's what we've been doing for the Democratic 2:45:26.480 --> 2:45:29.560 Party for eight years. This election shows how much of 2:45:29.600 --> 2:45:33.320 that is like a complete bullshit lie that no, it's 2:45:33.360 --> 2:45:35.560 not about going too far left, it's about actually wanting 2:45:35.560 --> 2:45:38.800 to fight for something real. And I'm kind of surprised 2:45:38.800 --> 2:45:42.400 that the these these two top dogs are giving in 2:45:42.640 --> 2:45:44.279 to the zmentum. 2:45:44.640 --> 2:45:46.600 I think also, and this is the thing like some 2:45:46.680 --> 2:45:48.960 one of my friends brought up, is that like mom 2:45:49.040 --> 2:45:54.920 Downy like isn't really like aoc no, no, no, this 2:45:55.160 --> 2:45:57.520 is something like very very important for like New York politics, 2:45:57.520 --> 2:46:01.280 which is like he's not like I'll be politically he is, 2:46:01.320 --> 2:46:04.560 but like he's not a complete outsider to New York politics. 2:46:04.600 --> 2:46:07.320 All these people know him they know him from like 2:46:07.440 --> 2:46:11.400 legislative shit right, and he has like relationships with them 2:46:11.600 --> 2:46:13.400 in a way that would be very very different if 2:46:13.600 --> 2:46:15.400 if he was, like I don't know, just like some 2:46:15.560 --> 2:46:17.640 like a complete outsider who'd been like a protest leader 2:46:17.720 --> 2:46:17.880 or whatever. 2:46:18.480 --> 2:46:19.920 He has he has proven himself. 2:46:20.240 --> 2:46:23.280 He has like tense relations but like yeah, but like 2:46:23.400 --> 2:46:26.360 he like these people know him, and that's something that 2:46:26.400 --> 2:46:28.720 can matter a lot in terms of like how these 2:46:28.760 --> 2:46:31.920 reactions play out and in terms of like how desperate 2:46:31.959 --> 2:46:33.120 they are to stop him. 2:46:33.360 --> 2:46:35.680 The Attorney General of New York was making like Obama 2:46:35.720 --> 2:46:38.120 two thousand and eight references, being like this, this was 2:46:38.160 --> 2:46:41.280 the energy in New York last night. And I wasn't 2:46:41.560 --> 2:46:45.320 around for the two thousand and eight presidential election. I 2:46:45.320 --> 2:46:47.600 mean I was alive, I just don't remember because I 2:46:47.680 --> 2:46:52.279 was also in Canada. But it did feel pretty exuberant 2:46:52.440 --> 2:46:56.600 last night walking around Brooklyn. And like this absolutely still 2:46:56.680 --> 2:46:59.400 is like a rejection of the Democratic Party establishment. That's 2:46:59.400 --> 2:47:02.440 what these results show. And we have to like claim 2:47:02.959 --> 2:47:07.080 a firm victory now, like hard line with with with 2:47:07.080 --> 2:47:09.880 with such a strong fist that like any potential fuckery 2:47:09.879 --> 2:47:12.200 in the future, whether it's from like other Dems or 2:47:12.200 --> 2:47:15.440 from the Republicans, like from Trump right, like they're obviously 2:47:15.520 --> 2:47:18.560 willing to arrest the New York City controller. So like 2:47:18.600 --> 2:47:21.760 any potential fuckery needs to look so much worse. People 2:47:21.879 --> 2:47:24.320 have to close ranks around zor On like immediately and 2:47:24.360 --> 2:47:27.200 like strengthen him. He needs to be like the face, 2:47:27.320 --> 2:47:29.600 like if they're going to take this guy down, he 2:47:29.680 --> 2:47:32.320 needs to be like the face of everything for like 2:47:32.440 --> 2:47:33.599 the next while. 2:47:33.720 --> 2:47:38.400 We're sort of seeing like slightly smaller sharks, like trailing 2:47:38.440 --> 2:47:40.199 around the wake of the shark. Like you were talking 2:47:40.200 --> 2:47:42.960 about the Democratic Turnyan General Leatitia James, who gave a 2:47:43.000 --> 2:47:45.400 really really compelling speech, like I actually think she's like 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:48.360 a better speaker. 2:47:47.440 --> 2:47:49.440 Than any of the people involved in this race. 2:47:49.600 --> 2:47:52.600 And she is like she has one hundred percent primary 2:47:52.640 --> 2:47:54.560 in the governor, like not one hundred percent, but like 2:47:54.800 --> 2:47:57.920 probably primary in the governor next year. Like this is 2:47:58.320 --> 2:48:00.160 you know, like people, people are sort of people have 2:48:00.240 --> 2:48:03.280 been flocking around this for a while and I think, 2:48:04.040 --> 2:48:06.000 I don't know, this is this is some real doesn't 2:48:06.000 --> 2:48:07.680 take a weatherman to see which way the winds are 2:48:07.680 --> 2:48:10.800 blowing shit Like they are, Yeah, they are, they are. 2:48:10.840 --> 2:48:14.040 They are living in fear they are, they are bending 2:48:14.040 --> 2:48:16.080 the knee, they are et cetera, et cetera. 2:48:18.000 --> 2:48:18.600 Very funny. 2:48:19.000 --> 2:48:21.440 And now the Republican Party is going to be on 2:48:21.480 --> 2:48:24.400 the attack. The baton's being passed from establishment Dems to 2:48:24.440 --> 2:48:26.000 the Republicans to. 2:48:27.800 --> 2:48:29.039 Try to take down. 2:48:29.120 --> 2:48:31.200 Zoron, or at least paint Zoron as this new like 2:48:31.320 --> 2:48:34.680 radical face of the Democratic Party, like like racism levels 2:48:34.680 --> 2:48:36.920 are gonna They're gonna reach never before seen heights. It's 2:48:36.959 --> 2:48:38.720 gonna be like Post nine to eleven all over again. 2:48:39.280 --> 2:48:42.720 The National Republican Congression Committee is already calling Zoron the 2:48:42.760 --> 2:48:44.320 new face of the Democratic. 2:48:43.840 --> 2:48:46.440 Party, which yeah, he should be. 2:48:46.640 --> 2:48:49.600 That's not like fucking bring it if you want, just 2:48:49.720 --> 2:48:51.920 like a breath of fresh air, I would recommend watching 2:48:51.959 --> 2:48:55.960 some financial news from from Wednesday morning. 2:48:56.240 --> 2:49:01.080 Oh it's so good, Hot commy summer Baby, hot commed Sumner. 2:49:00.840 --> 2:49:03.600 Who I Am. 2:49:03.920 --> 2:49:06.760 Executions in Central Park are about to begin. 2:49:06.920 --> 2:49:10.680 The Workers Republic is established, the Commonwealth of Labor rules. 2:49:11.720 --> 2:49:15.000 We're waiting for Chairman mcdani to make the final call. 2:49:15.520 --> 2:49:16.720 Lists are being made. 2:49:16.920 --> 2:49:24.120 Only you can ford the Soviets seize your workplaces. At 2:49:24.160 --> 2:49:27.080 the time is now. I do want to play a 2:49:27.080 --> 2:49:28.760 brief click from c NBC. 2:49:29.320 --> 2:49:32.160 If you've seen where what Batman is up against in 2:49:32.240 --> 2:49:37.160 Gotham and what the guy running for mayor is up against. 2:49:36.760 --> 2:49:37.640 That's what it reminds you. 2:49:37.959 --> 2:49:40.760 They're taking Wall streeters and make him walk out onto 2:49:40.800 --> 2:49:43.840 the ice in the East river as and hope and 2:49:44.160 --> 2:49:45.039 then they fall through. 2:49:45.320 --> 2:49:47.879 I mean there is a class warfare. 2:49:47.440 --> 2:49:51.480 That's so what's happened here? I think it's a rich type. 2:49:52.520 --> 2:49:58.760 There's a division within the Demo. Whoa, that's right. There 2:49:58.840 --> 2:50:03.320 is a division. The revelation baby. 2:50:02.920 --> 2:50:05.800 Eat the Wrench. There is a division of the Democratic Party. 2:50:06.120 --> 2:50:09.600 Walked them out onto the ice. We're sending him onto 2:50:09.600 --> 2:50:10.040 the ice. 2:50:10.959 --> 2:50:13.560 Is all on hand in hand with the Bain and 2:50:13.879 --> 2:50:16.119 Chilly and Murphy are gonna be. 2:50:16.080 --> 2:50:18.480 Sending them on to the hunts and the spirit of 2:50:18.560 --> 2:50:22.560 occupy lives. Oh my god. 2:50:23.920 --> 2:50:29.280 Bill Ackman Cromo and Trump Backer said quote, I was 2:50:29.320 --> 2:50:32.160 a bit depressed when I woke up this morning, but 2:50:32.200 --> 2:50:34.360 now I'm optimistic. I have a great idea on New 2:50:34.440 --> 2:50:35.920 York City, and I will share it as soon as 2:50:35.959 --> 2:50:40.000 I can. We are looking into legal issues. Good luck, 2:50:40.200 --> 2:50:42.280 good luck, Bill, have fun out there. 2:50:44.440 --> 2:50:46.360 Oh no, they're good. Wait, this is they're just gonna 2:50:46.360 --> 2:50:49.320 do persperas in Agane who cares. Oh no, bring it, 2:50:49.640 --> 2:50:53.160 bring it. I will say like this this coverage, like 2:50:53.520 --> 2:50:54.680 I like, people don't. 2:50:54.560 --> 2:50:56.240 Understand how one hints coverage is going to be. Like 2:50:56.280 --> 2:50:59.480 in Chicago when when when Brandon Johnson won the election, 2:50:59.480 --> 2:51:03.320 Brandon john is like significantly to the right of mom Donnie. 2:51:03.600 --> 2:51:07.119 Right when Brandon Johnson won the election, the Chicago press 2:51:07.280 --> 2:51:10.039 went so insane that all of them pretended to be 2:51:10.120 --> 2:51:14.599 pro immigrant. Oh yeah, Like, do you understand how unhinged 2:51:15.360 --> 2:51:17.360 the press has to get here because like like one 2:51:17.400 --> 2:51:19.000 of Johnson things that he was like fucking over like 2:51:19.040 --> 2:51:21.240 immigrants here, and he was like this immigrant the shelters 2:51:21.280 --> 2:51:23.360 are putting put in where substandard and people are getting sick, 2:51:23.520 --> 2:51:26.080 and like we had the best coverage of immigration issues 2:51:26.160 --> 2:51:29.240 under Biden in the country because specifically that was the 2:51:29.240 --> 2:51:30.320 thing the reason to attack him. 2:51:30.320 --> 2:51:32.840 I'm super curious what the Times is gonna do because 2:51:32.879 --> 2:51:36.039 like they've also pulled out all the stops the past 2:51:36.200 --> 2:51:38.000 the past few weeks to try to to try to 2:51:38.040 --> 2:51:38.760 stop Zoran. 2:51:39.120 --> 2:51:40.879 It's gonna be unhinged. 2:51:41.200 --> 2:51:43.720 The winds blowing in his direction now though, like I 2:51:43.959 --> 2:51:44.959 don't know what they're gonna do. 2:51:45.360 --> 2:51:47.760 I don't know, Like I think that specific class of 2:51:47.760 --> 2:51:49.440 people is just going to hate him until the end, 2:51:49.920 --> 2:51:52.320 Like I think. I think, like like David Brooks is 2:51:52.360 --> 2:51:54.000 going to be writing college about how there are like 2:51:54.080 --> 2:51:58.160 pagrams going on like on this streets, Like Brett Stevens 2:51:58.240 --> 2:52:00.520 is gonna be like I don't know, they're going to 2:52:00.560 --> 2:52:02.960 go to call it like super Lebanon, Like it's gonna 2:52:02.959 --> 2:52:06.200 be like levels of unhinged no one's ever seen before. 2:52:06.920 --> 2:52:10.480 Now, speaking of the Times, Obama's tree strategist was quoted 2:52:10.480 --> 2:52:12.720 in a New York Times article Wednesday morning, quote, there 2:52:12.840 --> 2:52:15.640 is no doubt that Trump and Republicans will try and 2:52:15.720 --> 2:52:17.959 seize on him as a kind of exemplar of what 2:52:18.000 --> 2:52:21.560 the Democratic Party stands for. The thing is, he seems 2:52:21.560 --> 2:52:25.320 both principled and agile and deft enough to confront those 2:52:25.360 --> 2:52:29.920 sorts of confrontational plays. I do want to read off 2:52:30.040 --> 2:52:35.439 from a Fox News screenshot this morning, showcasing Zoron's horrific, 2:52:35.840 --> 2:52:42.120 terrifying communist platform, which includes housing freezing rent, building afford 2:52:42.160 --> 2:52:47.840 level housing, creating city owned grocery stores whoa fair, free buses, 2:52:48.160 --> 2:52:51.360 raising the minimum wage to thirty dollars by twenty thirty 2:52:51.600 --> 2:52:57.520 and LGBTQIA plus protections expanding and protecting gender affirming care citywide, 2:52:57.760 --> 2:53:01.520 making NYC and lgbtq a I plus the sanctuary city 2:53:01.800 --> 2:53:08.120 and trump proofing NYC to end ice cooperation. Hell yeah, 2:53:08.120 --> 2:53:10.040 thank you, thank you Fox News for that, for that 2:53:10.160 --> 2:53:11.600 great list of reasons. 2:53:11.680 --> 2:53:14.760 It's to like Zaran Mamdani, I think. 2:53:14.800 --> 2:53:16.840 I think I think it's actually genuinely really important. She's 2:53:16.879 --> 2:53:19.520 like the only Democratic candidate in fucking ages who actively 2:53:19.520 --> 2:53:22.480 campaigned on like putting more funding in the trans healthcare 2:53:22.480 --> 2:53:24.000 like sixty five million dollars of funding. 2:53:24.200 --> 2:53:26.520 Yeah, fucking being pro trans wins. 2:53:26.560 --> 2:53:29.280 Being anti trans gets your ass kicked back to the suburbs. 2:53:29.280 --> 2:53:32.080 Like fucking Cuomo, eat shit, eat shit. 2:53:32.520 --> 2:53:36.480 Your Democratic strategists fuck off and die eat shit. You 2:53:36.520 --> 2:53:38.879 will be the ones in the fucking graves that you 2:53:38.879 --> 2:53:43.600 were digging for us, Like, fuck off, we have dunk 2:53:43.680 --> 2:53:44.920 your electoral grapes. 2:53:45.200 --> 2:53:46.920 This is why when I was at this like trans 2:53:47.000 --> 2:53:50.480 open mic at Metropolitan last night, like the whole room 2:53:50.640 --> 2:53:53.920 just like lit up in cheers, because yeah, like we've 2:53:53.920 --> 2:53:55.840 been we've been dealing with the past like six months. 2:53:55.879 --> 2:53:58.280 This idea that like trans writes is like the thing 2:53:58.320 --> 2:54:02.160 that's killing Democratic paulics and fucking know it isn't. 2:54:02.760 --> 2:54:05.760 Yeah, and Quo Quoto Cuoto read as a fucking transphobe 2:54:05.760 --> 2:54:08.640 because he is, and it didn't work. This is the 2:54:09.120 --> 2:54:13.040 joint feminist transgender victory over the forces of the turf 2:54:13.160 --> 2:54:13.920 sex predator. 2:54:14.720 --> 2:54:15.480 Fuck them. 2:54:16.200 --> 2:54:17.600 To wrap up my stuff here, I do want to 2:54:17.640 --> 2:54:21.400 play one minute from Zorn's acceptance speech, which I think 2:54:22.000 --> 2:54:23.400 uh speaks for itself. 2:54:25.360 --> 2:54:29.840 And it's where the mayor will use their power to. 2:54:29.920 --> 2:54:39.560 Reject Donald Trump's fascism, to stop mass ice agents from 2:54:39.600 --> 2:54:41.240 deporting our naghbor. 2:54:43.800 --> 2:54:45.320 I to covered our. 2:54:45.200 --> 2:54:53.160 City as a model for the Democratic Party, a party 2:54:54.200 --> 2:55:02.039 where we fight for working people with no apology. A 2:55:02.160 --> 2:55:06.760 life of dignity should not be reserved for a fortunate fuel. 2:55:08.120 --> 2:55:11.640 It should be one that city government guarantees for each 2:55:11.760 --> 2:55:18.600 and every New Yorker. If this campaign has demonstrated anything 2:55:19.080 --> 2:55:24.640 to the world, it is that our dreams can become reality. 2:55:28.040 --> 2:55:30.720 I sure hope this is the model for the Democratic 2:55:30.800 --> 2:55:34.520 Party going forward. Via you wanted to close on a 2:55:34.560 --> 2:55:36.160 sad note. 2:55:36.760 --> 2:55:39.680 Yeah, I was really depressed this entire night because I 2:55:39.680 --> 2:55:42.720 remember feeling a lot like this in like twenty twenty 2:55:42.760 --> 2:55:44.039 three in Chicago. 2:55:44.360 --> 2:55:47.160 Yeah, because this happened in Chicago. Yeah, well not this, 2:55:47.360 --> 2:55:49.720 but a version of this. Yeah. 2:55:49.959 --> 2:55:53.080 Like obviously Brandon Johnson was like significantly to the right 2:55:53.640 --> 2:55:56.280 of like everything that's been happening in New York. Like 2:55:56.320 --> 2:55:58.039 not he wasn't like a right winger, but he was 2:55:58.120 --> 2:56:00.560 like you know, like the local DSA had conflict with 2:56:00.600 --> 2:56:02.640 him from other stuff. But like, you know, I remember 2:56:02.760 --> 2:56:05.800 feeling like this and then one year later, like swat 2:56:05.800 --> 2:56:08.640 teams like deployed by the mayor that. 2:56:08.600 --> 2:56:09.640 He claimed he didn't send. 2:56:09.680 --> 2:56:12.040 We're beating up art students outside like literally in the 2:56:12.080 --> 2:56:14.879 middle of downtown for trying to have a Palestine encampment. 2:56:15.680 --> 2:56:19.360 And you know, like my bitter cynical personally got rap 2:56:19.400 --> 2:56:20.879 fucked by the mayor's office. 2:56:21.080 --> 2:56:24.720 Yeah, like Citicis, I'm on, this is like it's gonna 2:56:24.720 --> 2:56:26.160 be weird. There's gonna be a lot of shit that 2:56:26.280 --> 2:56:27.360 sucks this. 2:56:27.360 --> 2:56:31.480 This guy is like advocated defunding the police and is 2:56:31.520 --> 2:56:34.119 attacked like the NYPPD for years. Yeah, and now he's 2:56:34.120 --> 2:56:36.400 intensively going to be in charge of it, and he's 2:56:36.560 --> 2:56:38.760 he's not gonna be able to abolish the NYPD like 2:56:38.800 --> 2:56:41.840 that that's not gonna happen. No, So there's gonna be 2:56:41.879 --> 2:56:45.360 a degree of like you know, moratl like crisis. He's 2:56:45.400 --> 2:56:47.200 gonna have to work against some of the things that 2:56:47.200 --> 2:56:48.400 he stated he believes in. 2:56:48.879 --> 2:56:51.039 Yeah, And on a structural level, there's there's a really 2:56:51.080 --> 2:56:53.879 significant problem here, which is that, like the moment you 2:56:54.200 --> 2:56:58.200 become the leader of a capitalist city, right, it becomes 2:56:58.240 --> 2:57:00.880 your job to keep the economy running. And the problem 2:57:00.959 --> 2:57:04.279 is that like keeping keeping a capitalist economy running means 2:57:04.280 --> 2:57:07.880 you have to your job is now maintaining growth for 2:57:07.879 --> 2:57:10.400 for this economy, right, and maintaining growth through the economy 2:57:10.400 --> 2:57:12.720 means figuring out how how to have corporation continue to 2:57:12.760 --> 2:57:16.720 make more and more money. And that's not compatible with 2:57:16.920 --> 2:57:20.560 being a socialist. And everyone who has ever tried to 2:57:20.680 --> 2:57:25.200 like deal with this crisis you either like you have 2:57:25.240 --> 2:57:29.480 two pass it's like one you become a capitalist, right, 2:57:29.520 --> 2:57:31.960 and we see this fucking all over the place, right, 2:57:32.040 --> 2:57:34.879 it's like you know, it's it's it's Barcelona and Caboo 2:57:34.879 --> 2:57:36.560 coming into power, which is like this sort of like 2:57:37.000 --> 2:57:39.880 left wing council kind of like books to Nite thing, 2:57:39.920 --> 2:57:42.039 and then they immediately start like evicting migrates right or 2:57:42.040 --> 2:57:45.520 two or two, you actually do the thing. You do 2:57:45.640 --> 2:57:48.520 the thing you do, you do the actual socialism, and 2:57:48.879 --> 2:57:50.680 we fucking we like you know this is this is 2:57:50.720 --> 2:57:53.080 the beginning of the end of fascism in a way 2:57:53.120 --> 2:57:54.920 where we see a fundamental change in the structure of 2:57:54.920 --> 2:57:57.760 our economic system and that can be the outcome of this, 2:57:58.040 --> 2:58:00.720 but we have to build it, not him, like. 2:58:00.959 --> 2:58:02.680 And I think the most he's gonna be able to 2:58:02.680 --> 2:58:05.280 do is provide a bit of a safer zone for 2:58:05.400 --> 2:58:06.920 us to operate in in New York. 2:58:07.160 --> 2:58:07.440 Yeah. 2:58:07.560 --> 2:58:11.840 Yeah, he's going to be introducing more like social democratic policies, 2:58:11.879 --> 2:58:15.200 Like he's gonna make the city like financially easier to 2:58:15.240 --> 2:58:18.080 live in. Yeah, things will suck less, which is good. 2:58:18.280 --> 2:58:20.000 He is going to to the end of his power 2:58:20.360 --> 2:58:21.879 fight against Trump's. 2:58:21.560 --> 2:58:23.400 Efforts to deport your. 2:58:23.280 --> 2:58:27.520 Neighbors, and like, that is so much better than both 2:58:27.600 --> 2:58:30.160 what Cromo would do and Eric Adams, who is actively 2:58:30.160 --> 2:58:32.600 collaborating with the Trump administration. So this man's not going 2:58:32.680 --> 2:58:35.480 to actually be the least algae. He's not actually going 2:58:35.560 --> 2:58:39.119 to be the guy that ushers in the Red Revolution, 2:58:39.160 --> 2:58:42.120 which is not even something I necessarily want. But I 2:58:42.160 --> 2:58:44.960 think what he can do is make this an actually 2:58:44.959 --> 2:58:47.760 better place to live right now, and specifically make it 2:58:47.800 --> 2:58:50.240 a better place to live as the national politics in 2:58:50.280 --> 2:58:54.120 this country are controlled by a fascist and a cabinet 2:58:54.240 --> 2:58:55.200 full of fascists. 2:58:55.800 --> 2:58:57.840 Yeah, and he can make the largest city in the 2:58:57.840 --> 2:59:01.080 country the rock upon which the tide of fascism breaks and. 2:59:01.000 --> 2:59:05.119 That matters, that does well, that doesn't for us today, 2:59:05.760 --> 2:59:07.039 greatest city in the world. 2:59:07.160 --> 2:59:09.080 Cheer one point five Chinese City. Let's go. 2:59:34.520 --> 2:59:37.840 Oh, who's got ed? 2:59:38.240 --> 2:59:40.040 That's not how we start these episodes. 2:59:40.080 --> 2:59:43.240 Wow, that's how we're starting this one, Garrison, it's already begun. 2:59:43.959 --> 2:59:49.440 Welcome to Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening 2:59:49.520 --> 2:59:51.920 in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it 2:59:51.959 --> 2:59:52.560 means for you. 2:59:53.640 --> 2:59:54.840 That's right, motherfuckers. 2:59:55.040 --> 2:59:57.840 That's Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm also joined by 2:59:57.879 --> 3:00:01.680 Mia Wong and James Stout. This week we are covering 3:00:02.200 --> 3:00:05.560 the week of June eighteen to June twenty five. 3:00:05.800 --> 3:00:09.080 That's right, a good week where nothing but good things happened. 3:00:09.680 --> 3:00:15.320 Assuming you are someone who manufactures thirty pound gravity utilizing 3:00:15.400 --> 3:00:17.000 bunker busting bombs. 3:00:16.760 --> 3:00:18.720 Thirty pound that's quite a small one. 3:00:18.520 --> 3:00:23.440 Thirty thousand, thirty thousand, that's thirty thousand. Sorry. Anyway, we're 3:00:23.440 --> 3:00:26.199 talking about Iran. We're gonna start with Iran. We're gonna 3:00:26.200 --> 3:00:28.320 start with Iran's nuclear program, and I think we should start. 3:00:28.360 --> 3:00:32.080 We need to start by giving the kol Zone media 3:00:32.200 --> 3:00:34.400 cool kid's guide for how to enrich uranium. 3:00:34.560 --> 3:00:38.680 Oh no, I don't want to get arrested robbers, now, Mia, 3:00:39.000 --> 3:00:42.080 it's not illegal to tell people how to enrich uranium. 3:00:42.320 --> 3:00:45.720 Google will do it, and I assume they're correct. Robert, 3:00:45.959 --> 3:00:48.560 it is legal for white people to do this. I 3:00:48.600 --> 3:00:49.800 don't know if it's legal for. 3:00:49.800 --> 3:00:50.640 Me to do this. 3:00:52.160 --> 3:00:56.120 It's okay, it's okay, it's okay. Look, if I've learned 3:00:56.160 --> 3:00:58.680 one thing, it's that it's okay for white people to 3:00:58.680 --> 3:01:00.920 talk about any kind of bomb on the internet. So 3:01:01.400 --> 3:01:04.160 we'll be fine. I'll be fine. That's what matters, Robert. 3:01:04.240 --> 3:01:08.560 Do I have kidnapping insurance? Do we have an extraction 3:01:08.720 --> 3:01:10.879 team for me when I go to ice prints? We don't. 3:01:11.840 --> 3:01:14.760 We have an extraction team, but it's not the cool 3:01:14.840 --> 3:01:18.840 kind anyway. So let's talk about how to make nukes. 3:01:18.840 --> 3:01:21.280 Because one thing you'll constantly hear whenever the US or 3:01:21.360 --> 3:01:23.760 Israel talks about Iran's nuclear program, is that they're just 3:01:24.000 --> 3:01:27.400 three to eight months away, right or weeks away. This 3:01:27.480 --> 3:01:29.520 is what you'll hear sometimes just technically if you three 3:01:29.520 --> 3:01:31.440 months is a number of weeks away whatever. 3:01:31.560 --> 3:01:34.120 And they've been saying this for longer than I've been alive. 3:01:36.160 --> 3:01:39.640 Here's the thing, it's technically correct, not in a way 3:01:39.640 --> 3:01:42.200 that like is correct in the way they are trying 3:01:42.240 --> 3:01:43.600 to push it, but in a way that is like 3:01:43.680 --> 3:01:47.640 literally correct, which is that Iran paused their nuclear program 3:01:47.680 --> 3:01:50.560 in two thousand and three. The current Ayatola has not 3:01:50.800 --> 3:01:53.160 given the command to start it up again. There is 3:01:53.240 --> 3:01:56.840 no evidence that it is currently operative. Back in March, 3:01:57.160 --> 3:02:01.080 US military intelligence the DA concluded that there was no 3:02:01.160 --> 3:02:05.600 indication Iran had decided or attempted to restart their nuclear program. 3:02:06.080 --> 3:02:08.240 That said, it has been true since two thousand and 3:02:08.280 --> 3:02:11.440 three that they are potentially about three months or so 3:02:11.640 --> 3:02:14.200 away from having a nuke because of the way that 3:02:14.240 --> 3:02:17.560 making nukes work. So in order to make the standard 3:02:17.640 --> 3:02:20.480 kind of nuclear weapon that we're talking about here, you 3:02:20.560 --> 3:02:24.440 need a bunch of enriched uranium, right, and there's two 3:02:24.520 --> 3:02:26.840 kinds of uranium. There's two thirty five and there's two 3:02:26.879 --> 3:02:30.280 thirty eight, and naturally they always show up together, and 3:02:30.320 --> 3:02:32.640 there's always a lot more two thirty eight than two 3:02:32.680 --> 3:02:35.920 thirty five, and two thirty eight is fucking bullshit. If 3:02:35.920 --> 3:02:38.320 you're trying to make yourself a bomb, right, you want 3:02:38.360 --> 3:02:41.560 the two thirty five. And I'm not going to go 3:02:41.640 --> 3:02:44.360 into a ton of detail about like how you do this, 3:02:44.520 --> 3:02:48.640 but because of just the nature of how uranium two 3:02:48.640 --> 3:02:51.600 thirty five and two thirty eight work, they're chemically identical, 3:02:51.879 --> 3:02:55.280 so you can't use chemical reactions to separate them, right, 3:02:55.360 --> 3:02:57.640 So you can't use any of the easy ways that 3:02:57.680 --> 3:02:59.560 you would like separate one from the other in order 3:02:59.560 --> 3:03:02.160 to constant trait the kind of uranium that they want. 3:03:02.480 --> 3:03:05.520 The only way to actually do that is by using 3:03:05.600 --> 3:03:09.600 a centrifuge, which is, in short, uses the magic of 3:03:09.680 --> 3:03:13.879 spinning in order to separate out the uranium that you 3:03:13.959 --> 3:03:16.600 want from their uranium that's not very useful to you. 3:03:17.320 --> 3:03:21.360 And Iran has a substantial quantity of like sixty percent 3:03:21.520 --> 3:03:25.720 enriched uranium, which is basically one step away from ninety percent, 3:03:25.760 --> 3:03:27.760 which is like what you need to actually build the 3:03:27.760 --> 3:03:29.840 bomb that they need. And they've had a shitload of 3:03:29.879 --> 3:03:33.600 this uranium sitting around for a while, right, because it 3:03:33.800 --> 3:03:37.680 keeps well, and theoretically, if they were to start their 3:03:37.720 --> 3:03:42.400 program up again, it would be theoretically possible to enrich 3:03:42.480 --> 3:03:46.280 it in fairly short order to the concentration that you need, 3:03:46.480 --> 3:03:49.720 right and at that point, once you have a sufficient quantity. 3:03:50.280 --> 3:03:54.200 And you'll hear slightly different numbers, but generally agreed that 3:03:54.320 --> 3:03:57.959 they have a sufficient quantity of uranium that is fairly 3:03:58.040 --> 3:04:01.160 enriched that if they were to finish the they can 3:04:01.240 --> 3:04:04.440 make somewhere between like eight to ten warheads with it, right, 3:04:04.560 --> 3:04:07.640 like something somewhere in that vicinity, and they could have 3:04:08.000 --> 3:04:11.039 a functional warhead within a matter of weeks after enriching, 3:04:11.080 --> 3:04:13.760 because enriching the uranium is the hard part. Once you've 3:04:13.800 --> 3:04:17.320 done that, it's very easy to make a nuclear weapon, right, 3:04:17.680 --> 3:04:20.840 sufficiently skilled people could do it with like fairly minimal 3:04:20.879 --> 3:04:23.800 technology if they like. Getting the rich uranium is the 3:04:23.800 --> 3:04:26.680 hard part. So it's technically true that Iran is that, 3:04:27.120 --> 3:04:29.320 you know, close to having a weapon they have been 3:04:29.360 --> 3:04:31.640 since two thousand and three. But the more important part 3:04:31.680 --> 3:04:34.119 of the story is that they have not been working 3:04:34.200 --> 3:04:36.360 on a weapon, and there's no evidence even for the 3:04:36.440 --> 3:04:39.800 DEA concluded in March that they were not actively working 3:04:39.800 --> 3:04:43.160 on a nuclear weapon. So what's actually been going on 3:04:43.240 --> 3:04:47.840 here is that while the Ayatola has not reauthorized the 3:04:47.879 --> 3:04:50.879 program in quite some time, pressure has been It's been 3:04:50.920 --> 3:04:54.360 generally agreed by people watching, you know, Iranian politics, that 3:04:54.600 --> 3:04:57.279 pressure has been building on him in order to reauthorize 3:04:57.280 --> 3:04:57.800 the program. 3:04:57.879 --> 3:04:58.080 Right. 3:04:58.480 --> 3:05:01.280 There's a good CBS News article on this that notes 3:05:01.280 --> 3:05:04.200 that the US Intelligence Community assessment stated that there was 3:05:04.240 --> 3:05:06.879 an erosion of a decades long taboo on discussing nuclear 3:05:06.920 --> 3:05:09.800 weapons in public, brought on by all of the pressure 3:05:10.080 --> 3:05:11.320 against Iran by Israel. 3:05:11.400 --> 3:05:11.640 Right. 3:05:11.720 --> 3:05:14.440 In other words, the more Israel and the United States 3:05:14.440 --> 3:05:17.760 threaten and actually do bomb Iran, the more public support 3:05:17.800 --> 3:05:20.800 there is, and the more acceptable it comes to talk 3:05:20.840 --> 3:05:24.480 about restarting the program, right, because continuing to bomb and 3:05:24.520 --> 3:05:27.680 attack them makes the case very strongly that well, we 3:05:27.760 --> 3:05:31.960 probably need one of these fucking things, right, because otherwise 3:05:31.959 --> 3:05:33.960 they're simply not going to stop. And that's been the 3:05:34.040 --> 3:05:36.440 lesson of the twenty first century, which is, if you 3:05:36.520 --> 3:05:39.000 are a country that has beef with the United States 3:05:39.120 --> 3:05:41.520 or any other nuclear power, the safest thing to do 3:05:41.680 --> 3:05:43.800 is get a nuke and then get more nukes as 3:05:43.879 --> 3:05:47.680 quickly as possible, right, So that's the situation that we're in. 3:05:47.840 --> 3:05:51.360 Iran has not moved any closer to having a nuclear 3:05:51.400 --> 3:05:54.440 weapon over the last twenty some years, but because they've 3:05:54.440 --> 3:05:57.680 got this uranium, you can always technically say, well, they 3:05:57.720 --> 3:05:58.920 could be months away. 3:05:59.120 --> 3:05:59.320 Right. 3:06:00.200 --> 3:06:03.640 So this all leads us up to last week's strikes 3:06:03.720 --> 3:06:08.000 on Iran. These were using a wing of B two bombers. Actually, 3:06:08.240 --> 3:06:11.160 there was quite a few aircraft involved. Prior to the 3:06:11.160 --> 3:06:13.080 bombing attack, there was a lot of discussions like the 3:06:13.160 --> 3:06:17.560 United States preparing for much more extensive action in Iran 3:06:17.640 --> 3:06:20.600 because we flew all of these different, like refueling planes 3:06:20.680 --> 3:06:23.600 all around the world, and we're like setting up very 3:06:23.640 --> 3:06:27.080 clearly this like massive set of infrastructure to refuel and 3:06:27.160 --> 3:06:29.360 keep a bunch of planes in the air. Now, the 3:06:29.400 --> 3:06:32.279 reality is that all of these refueling planes and whatnot 3:06:32.480 --> 3:06:35.240 were part of this bombing mission, and the bombing mission 3:06:35.280 --> 3:06:38.360 did not just include the seven bombers that actually struck Iran, 3:06:38.720 --> 3:06:41.039 but another wing of B two bombers that flew in 3:06:41.120 --> 3:06:43.800 the opposite direction as part of a feint, as well 3:06:43.840 --> 3:06:48.480 as fighter jets and reconplanes that were necessary to help 3:06:48.560 --> 3:06:51.120 set up and protect the whole apparatus that we were 3:06:51.160 --> 3:06:53.920 setting up to get these seven B twos to the 3:06:53.959 --> 3:06:58.280 target area. Right now, the actual mission was about thirty 3:06:58.320 --> 3:07:00.840 seven hours, which is not the law longest mission B 3:07:00.879 --> 3:07:03.039 two cruis have flown. That was forty four hours, and 3:07:03.040 --> 3:07:05.879 it was over Afghanistan in two thousand and one. And 3:07:06.000 --> 3:07:08.039 keep a pin in that because we will be talking 3:07:08.080 --> 3:07:11.400 about how successful that mission was, because there's some similarities 3:07:11.400 --> 3:07:13.680 between it and what was done in Iran. Now, the 3:07:13.720 --> 3:07:16.080 B twos that we flew over Iran were armed with 3:07:16.120 --> 3:07:20.160 these big thirty thousand pound bunker busting bombs, and well, 3:07:20.200 --> 3:07:22.240 we'll talk about these as well in a while, but 3:07:22.480 --> 3:07:24.560 I want to I found out there's a very interesting 3:07:24.720 --> 3:07:28.560 article on a CNN Politics by Michael Williams that interviews 3:07:28.680 --> 3:07:30.920 one of the guys who was part of the longest 3:07:31.000 --> 3:07:33.520 B two mission, that mission over Afghanistan, who talked about 3:07:33.560 --> 3:07:35.720 like what you have to do in order to carry 3:07:35.720 --> 3:07:37.080 out a mission like this. And I want to bring 3:07:37.120 --> 3:07:38.440 it up because, you know, in the middle of this 3:07:38.560 --> 3:07:41.560 very shameful episode for the United States, it reminds me 3:07:41.600 --> 3:07:43.640 of what makes me proud of this country and what 3:07:43.720 --> 3:07:46.200 makes me proud of this country is our tendency to 3:07:46.320 --> 3:07:49.880 dose bomber pilots with massive quantities of amphetamines so that 3:07:49.920 --> 3:07:53.119 they can be absolutely spun off their asses when bombing 3:07:53.120 --> 3:07:56.800 a foreign country. And that's exactly how you get bomber 3:07:56.840 --> 3:08:00.280 teams over to a country like Iran for thirty seven 3:08:00.320 --> 3:08:03.680 hours of flight time. Is everybody is prescribed amphetamines and 3:08:03.720 --> 3:08:06.120 they are high as shit. They are pissing in ziploc 3:08:06.160 --> 3:08:08.560 bags full of kitty litter. They've got a chemical toilet 3:08:08.600 --> 3:08:11.200 in the back. They're just spun off of their asses, 3:08:11.240 --> 3:08:14.080 pissing into cat litter. And that's that's how strikes like 3:08:14.120 --> 3:08:16.320 this are managed, which I think is beautiful. 3:08:16.440 --> 3:08:19.199 Yeah, except for the whole you know, Trump starting a 3:08:19.240 --> 3:08:20.760 little war aspect of it. 3:08:20.920 --> 3:08:24.800 Yeah, sure, sure, the massive civilian casualties are always a. 3:08:24.760 --> 3:08:26.800 Tragedy, Yeah, the death eminicent people. 3:08:26.840 --> 3:08:29.959 But you know it also, it was from fighter pilots 3:08:30.040 --> 3:08:32.640 that we get a swinger culture. And it's from fighter 3:08:32.680 --> 3:08:35.640 pilots and swinger culture that we get popularized amphetamines in 3:08:35.640 --> 3:08:39.280 the United States. And without that, you know, I don't know, 3:08:39.480 --> 3:08:41.360 we actually probably wouldn't miss out on much that was 3:08:41.480 --> 3:08:41.879 very good. 3:08:42.600 --> 3:08:45.760 But the seventies would have been different. Value was lost. 3:08:46.440 --> 3:08:48.600 Might have been better, Yeah, it might have been better. 3:08:48.640 --> 3:08:50.560 I don't know. I feel like Jefferson airplane wouldn't have 3:08:50.560 --> 3:08:54.640 been as good. But maybe they'd be close something else. Yeah, 3:08:54.680 --> 3:08:58.039 maybe they'd been called something else. So the primary munition 3:08:58.240 --> 3:09:00.880 that these B twos were supposed to be dropping over Iran, 3:09:00.920 --> 3:09:02.640 and the whole reason why the United States was needed 3:09:02.680 --> 3:09:04.760 because Israel had carried out a bunch of strikes on 3:09:04.920 --> 3:09:10.720 Iranian nuclear facilities. But basically, Iran, being intelligent, knew that, like, well, 3:09:10.760 --> 3:09:13.560 they're going to bomb these facilities like as long as 3:09:13.600 --> 3:09:16.720 they exist, and it's very difficult to get like these 3:09:16.760 --> 3:09:20.120 centrifugias made, right, Like that's the hardest part of getting 3:09:20.120 --> 3:09:22.840 a nuclear weapon is getting the equipment that will allow 3:09:22.920 --> 3:09:26.360 you to enrich uranium. And so it's very precious and 3:09:26.400 --> 3:09:28.240 you can't you don't just have you can't just remake 3:09:28.320 --> 3:09:31.840 it super easily. So Iran buried this shit, right. They 3:09:31.879 --> 3:09:33.840 had a number of different sites which were hit by 3:09:33.840 --> 3:09:36.240 both the US and Israel, the most deeply buried of 3:09:36.240 --> 3:09:38.240 which was a place called at a place called Fourdoh, 3:09:38.760 --> 3:09:41.760 and the actual facilities were buried underneath like the ridge 3:09:41.800 --> 3:09:44.720 of a mountain beneath ninety meters or about three hundred 3:09:44.760 --> 3:09:48.680 feet of rock. Right. And we have this tendency in 3:09:48.720 --> 3:09:52.439 the West in part because of generations of like military 3:09:52.440 --> 3:09:55.680 industry propaganda, and in part because the Air Force really 3:09:55.680 --> 3:09:58.320 wants you to believe this that bombs are a lot 3:09:58.400 --> 3:10:02.160 more powerful than they are now. Bombs are great at 3:10:02.160 --> 3:10:04.680 blowing up buildings that are just hanging around on the 3:10:04.720 --> 3:10:07.520 surface of the earth, and they're great at killing people. 3:10:07.600 --> 3:10:10.360 They're great at killing civilians, people who are not you know, 3:10:10.600 --> 3:10:13.280 armored or defended against them. They're awesome at that. You know, 3:10:13.280 --> 3:10:15.600 what bombs suck at is going more than a couple 3:10:15.600 --> 3:10:18.360 of feet below the earth. They're terrible at it. Even 3:10:18.480 --> 3:10:21.760 really big bombs, even the scariest bombs we've ever made, 3:10:22.080 --> 3:10:26.119 absolute dog shit at getting through, especially like stone and rock. 3:10:26.680 --> 3:10:29.640 And so Israel was like, we don't have the capacity, 3:10:29.640 --> 3:10:32.480 we don't have the technology to actually like crack a 3:10:32.520 --> 3:10:35.280 facility like fourd oh. The only thing that can is 3:10:35.320 --> 3:10:38.119 these bombs that can only be carried by the Bee two, 3:10:38.320 --> 3:10:40.920 which are these thirty thousand pounds bunker busters. 3:10:41.000 --> 3:10:41.200 Right. 3:10:41.680 --> 3:10:44.320 And the question that comes up then is like, Okay, 3:10:44.360 --> 3:10:47.280 well this four doah is ninety meters. It was beneath 3:10:47.360 --> 3:10:51.320 ninety meters of rock. How deep can these GBU fifty sevens, 3:10:51.360 --> 3:10:54.120 these massive ordnance penetrator bombs, which had not been used 3:10:54.160 --> 3:10:55.959 in combat before? How deep can these fuckers go? 3:10:56.200 --> 3:10:56.400 Right? 3:10:57.200 --> 3:11:00.000 That seems like a simple question. You will usually see 3:11:00.280 --> 3:11:02.879 most of the graphics on the news will show that 3:11:02.959 --> 3:11:05.520 it penetrates sixty meters right or two hundred feet, and 3:11:05.560 --> 3:11:08.800 then it detonates, right, which you could do damage to 3:11:08.800 --> 3:11:11.240 a facility that's buried deeper. Right, If you're detonating it 3:11:11.360 --> 3:11:14.080 like sixty meters down and it goes down ninety meters, 3:11:14.200 --> 3:11:17.039 that explosion could do enough extra damage. It could damage 3:11:17.040 --> 3:11:19.560 a facility that's just like another thirty meters below. 3:11:19.640 --> 3:11:19.800 Right. 3:11:19.840 --> 3:11:24.959 Theoretically, however, that doesn't tell the full story. And I'm 3:11:25.040 --> 3:11:27.400 very indebted in this part to an NPR article by 3:11:27.480 --> 3:11:30.920 Joff Brumfel, who did actually like the math. Right, So 3:11:31.000 --> 3:11:33.280 we figured out a long time ago when we started 3:11:33.320 --> 3:11:37.640 bombing things, there's like a mathematical equation to how far 3:11:37.840 --> 3:11:40.760 a bomb that's a given weight and dropped from a 3:11:40.760 --> 3:11:44.280 given height and has a given explosive payload can penetrate 3:11:44.360 --> 3:11:46.680 through different kind of substrates right that you can just 3:11:46.760 --> 3:11:49.879 kind of plug that equation in. And yeah, I want 3:11:49.920 --> 3:11:53.400 to quote from Jeff's article right now, because it does 3:11:53.440 --> 3:11:56.240 a very good job of like looking at kind of 3:11:56.320 --> 3:11:59.520 why this was sort of a dogshit plan from the start. 3:12:00.080 --> 3:12:01.440 I went back to take a look at the math 3:12:01.440 --> 3:12:03.920 from those early studies and I found it was actually straightforward. 3:12:04.000 --> 3:12:06.680 The so called penetration equations have existed since the nineteen 3:12:06.720 --> 3:12:09.160 sixties and depend on a limited number of factors, including 3:12:09.160 --> 3:12:11.080 the shape of the nose cone, the weight and diameter 3:12:11.120 --> 3:12:13.280 of the weapon, the speed at which it hits the ground, 3:12:13.360 --> 3:12:15.400 and crucially, the type of earth it gets dropped on. 3:12:15.800 --> 3:12:18.320 It depends enormously on the kind of rocks, as Raymond 3:12:18.640 --> 3:12:21.520 Gene Laws, the professor at the University of California, Berkeley 3:12:21.560 --> 3:12:23.360 and one of the original authors of the two thousand 3:12:23.360 --> 3:12:26.240 and five National Academic Study and Earth Penetrators. When I 3:12:26.280 --> 3:12:28.880 ran the calculations using a key equation from that study, 3:12:29.040 --> 3:12:31.000 I found that the GBU fifty seven could go up 3:12:31.040 --> 3:12:34.360 to eighty meters underground if it was dropped in salty clay. 3:12:34.680 --> 3:12:37.520 In medium strength rock, things looked far different. The GBU 3:12:37.600 --> 3:12:40.480 fifty seven could only go around seven point nine meters 3:12:40.480 --> 3:12:44.600 beneath the earth, So that's not nearly the sixty meters 3:12:44.600 --> 3:12:46.720 that you're seeing claimed on most and it's nowhere close 3:12:46.760 --> 3:12:50.160 to ninety, right, And there's a good amount of data 3:12:50.280 --> 3:12:52.680 we already have. Trump obviously claimed as soon as we 3:12:52.720 --> 3:12:56.400 did this bombing run, because we dropped a fairly heavy 3:12:56.440 --> 3:12:59.600 cluster of these bombs, twelve on four to zero. And 3:12:59.680 --> 3:13:01.959 Trump's claim was that, like, yeah, it was completely destroyed. 3:13:02.320 --> 3:13:04.959 His press secretary said, when you dropped twelve thirty thousand 3:13:05.000 --> 3:13:08.120 pound bombs with perfect precision on a target, there's only 3:13:08.160 --> 3:13:11.959 one result, complete destruction. And that's not true even if 3:13:12.000 --> 3:13:13.879 you just like look at the past of us using 3:13:13.879 --> 3:13:16.200 these weapons. I mentioned earlier that two thousand and one 3:13:16.240 --> 3:13:19.160 mission to Afghanistan that was us trying to blow up 3:13:19.200 --> 3:13:22.560 that's purported like cave fortress that bin Laden had. 3:13:22.800 --> 3:13:25.360 You may have seen the diagram in Tora Bora, and 3:13:25.800 --> 3:13:30.080 we didn't. It didn't work because it's really hard for 3:13:30.160 --> 3:13:33.840 all of our technological might, it's very hard to blow 3:13:33.959 --> 3:13:37.680 up something buried under rock, Like it doesn't matter how 3:13:37.680 --> 3:13:39.359 many of these giant bombs. 3:13:39.040 --> 3:13:42.360 You have, We're shit at it. Right now, there's still 3:13:42.360 --> 3:13:46.360 some debate. The DIA assessment says that basically, we did damage, 3:13:46.400 --> 3:13:48.520 but it was at most maybe enough to knock them 3:13:48.560 --> 3:13:51.200 back by eight months, and probably less than that. Right, 3:13:51.800 --> 3:13:54.240 it's kind of debatable, and we don't have perfect data 3:13:54.240 --> 3:13:56.199 on this, right, I don't know that Iran has perfect 3:13:56.240 --> 3:13:58.039 data on this, because one thing we can confirm is 3:13:58.040 --> 3:14:01.400 that the bombing sealed the intro, so it's possible they 3:14:01.440 --> 3:14:03.640 can't get into Ford Oh quite yet. Right, Like, there's 3:14:03.680 --> 3:14:05.320 going to be some work needed to do to be 3:14:05.320 --> 3:14:07.440 able to get these facilities if they were to do that, 3:14:07.480 --> 3:14:11.080 which again they were not based on US military intelligence, 3:14:11.120 --> 3:14:14.400 were not doing prior to the bombing, but based on 3:14:14.440 --> 3:14:17.119 satellite imagery, it does not look like there's not really 3:14:17.120 --> 3:14:20.400 good evidence that we did any kind of significant damage. 3:14:20.560 --> 3:14:24.040 There's some reports that some centrifugias were damaged, but those 3:14:24.040 --> 3:14:26.879 reports state that other centrifugias were intact. So it's one 3:14:26.879 --> 3:14:30.120 of those things where like there's not any strong evidence. 3:14:30.160 --> 3:14:32.720 And in fact, the DIA's report suggests that, like, the 3:14:32.800 --> 3:14:36.320 damage done was fairly minimal, given the extreme cost of 3:14:36.360 --> 3:14:39.160 this operation and the brags that the administration has been 3:14:39.200 --> 3:14:42.879 making that like they totally destroyed these facilities, right, right, 3:14:43.080 --> 3:14:47.440 We simply did not totally destroy these facilities. Now, it's 3:14:47.720 --> 3:14:51.480 a little too early to say so precisely, like how 3:14:51.560 --> 3:14:54.480 bad is this? Right, But you know again, that's kind 3:14:54.480 --> 3:14:57.680 of the early data is that, like the DIA assessment says, 3:14:57.720 --> 3:15:00.199 we set them back maybe a few months at most. 3:15:00.480 --> 3:15:02.520 One of the fun things about this is that Iran 3:15:02.640 --> 3:15:06.160 moved their uranium prior to the bombing, right, Like, you 3:15:06.200 --> 3:15:09.920 can't really move these giant centrifuges or these big underground facilities, 3:15:09.959 --> 3:15:11.959 but you can take the uranium and you can just 3:15:12.080 --> 3:15:14.600 drive at places and we don't know exactly where they 3:15:14.680 --> 3:15:16.720 hit it. The head of the IAEA, which is the 3:15:16.720 --> 3:15:20.280 International Atomic Energy Commission, has already come out and said, like, 3:15:20.360 --> 3:15:23.440 I have no idea where Iran's uranium is. And it's 3:15:23.480 --> 3:15:25.840 the job the IAEA's job is to account for every 3:15:25.879 --> 3:15:29.600 fucking gram of uranium held by every country in the world. Right, 3:15:29.600 --> 3:15:31.880 they are supposed to know at all times where it is. 3:15:32.400 --> 3:15:34.640 And he's like, I have no fucking idea, Like, we 3:15:34.720 --> 3:15:36.360 don't know where it is, and we don't know how 3:15:36.400 --> 3:15:38.080 much damage is double, we don't know where this is. 3:15:38.320 --> 3:15:40.600 There is at least one report stating that Iran's plan 3:15:40.720 --> 3:15:42.880 was basically load this up into the trunks of a 3:15:42.920 --> 3:15:45.320 bunch of cars and park them in public parking lots 3:15:45.400 --> 3:15:47.400 because they probably they're not going to bomb a public 3:15:47.440 --> 3:15:51.480 parking lot outside of like a store, which is really funny, 3:15:51.560 --> 3:15:54.400 actually fair, The US might do that. 3:15:55.200 --> 3:15:58.080 A Israel will send me bomb a fucking pokin they 3:15:58.200 --> 3:16:01.360 hit a press, which parking there's so yeah, yeah, and 3:16:01.400 --> 3:16:03.800 they'll pray a show game, right like they will send 3:16:03.879 --> 3:16:06.400 hundreds of trucks and vans from every location. 3:16:06.680 --> 3:16:08.120 Yeah right, they'll send way more. 3:16:08.200 --> 3:16:10.560 It's it's just the funniest thing in terms of it 3:16:10.600 --> 3:16:13.240 also points out how doomed efforts like this are where 3:16:13.240 --> 3:16:15.600 you just like, well, with our technology and our fancy 3:16:15.640 --> 3:16:18.400 stealth bombers, we clearly we should be able to figure 3:16:18.400 --> 3:16:20.360 this out. And it's like, nah, we're just gonna park. 3:16:20.440 --> 3:16:22.959 We need one hundred cars. We'll bring in six hundred 3:16:23.000 --> 3:16:26.039 cars and we'll park them randomly all around the country. 3:16:26.200 --> 3:16:29.640 Fuck you, what are you gonna do? Bomb every parking lot? Like, 3:16:32.120 --> 3:16:33.879 it's very funny quote. 3:16:33.600 --> 3:16:36.600 From parking lot bombed? What are you gonna do? Yeah? 3:16:37.240 --> 3:16:41.600 Anyway, that's uh, what's going on with us? Bombing Iran 3:16:41.920 --> 3:16:45.760 and so again very expensive. Yeah, probably did not do. 3:16:45.879 --> 3:16:49.240 Much Trump the Doves strikes again the peace maker they 3:16:49.320 --> 3:16:50.320 calling them the peace maker. 3:16:50.760 --> 3:16:53.320 Yeah, we'll talk about the peace bullshit after this. We 3:16:53.360 --> 3:16:54.560 should throw to ads first. 3:16:54.640 --> 3:16:56.840 Thank you note from Grumman for sponsoring this segment. 3:17:09.400 --> 3:17:14.720 We're back. So like the fourd Oh nuclear enrichment facility, 3:17:14.959 --> 3:17:18.360 Trump is between a rock and a hard place with 3:17:18.360 --> 3:17:22.680 with this whole carrying out illegal stripes on a sovereign 3:17:22.760 --> 3:17:25.440 nation thing. I'm a jig in that he came. He 3:17:25.520 --> 3:17:27.880 came to power a large part by promising I'm not 3:17:27.920 --> 3:17:30.240 going to do a World War three. I'm not gonna 3:17:30.320 --> 3:17:33.760 All these democrats are crazy warmongers, but not old Donnie t. 3:17:34.080 --> 3:17:35.800 You know, you can you can trust me to be 3:17:35.800 --> 3:17:39.200 a peacemaker. And then he fucking bombs around, which is 3:17:39.280 --> 3:17:42.879 kind of a major escalation, right, So, and we're not 3:17:42.920 --> 3:17:45.280 gonna There's been people arguing with this have happened under 3:17:45.320 --> 3:17:48.040 Kamala Yaddiya. I don't, I don't, I don't give a shit. 3:17:48.080 --> 3:17:50.440 I don't really shit it's happening now. Fucking fuck off, 3:17:50.840 --> 3:17:53.680 Like it's not it's not worth talking about that. We're 3:17:53.680 --> 3:17:55.800 talking about what's happening, which is that this is a 3:17:55.800 --> 3:17:58.640 major escalation. But Trump has had to He's kind of 3:17:58.640 --> 3:18:01.480 been hedging between like, yeah, look at how fucking cool 3:18:01.520 --> 3:18:03.440 our weapons are. We fuck them up so bad, and 3:18:03.520 --> 3:18:05.760 also and now it's time for peace. We have to 3:18:05.760 --> 3:18:08.400 stop the violence. Why don't you guys come to the table. 3:18:08.480 --> 3:18:11.440 Let's all be friends, and getting pretty pissed at the 3:18:11.480 --> 3:18:15.400 Israeli government, Yes, because he announced a ceasefire, and Iran 3:18:15.560 --> 3:18:18.879 was like, after striking back and hitting US bases in 3:18:18.920 --> 3:18:21.400 a number of countries, was like, okay, we're done. Like 3:18:21.480 --> 3:18:23.240 we did the thing we had, we did the face 3:18:23.280 --> 3:18:25.800 saving thing. We have to launch missiles after youbamas. We 3:18:25.840 --> 3:18:27.800 can't not do that. Yeah, but we did it. We 3:18:27.840 --> 3:18:30.240 got our strike off, and we're not going to continue 3:18:30.320 --> 3:18:33.080 if you guys don't continue, right, And Trump was like, 3:18:33.120 --> 3:18:34.920 I did it. I made peace. Look at look at 3:18:34.959 --> 3:18:37.760 how good I am. And then Israel immediately starts carrying 3:18:37.800 --> 3:18:41.440 out more straits and Trump is, are we gonna play 3:18:41.480 --> 3:18:44.119 the audio of it cursing on TV because it's very good. 3:18:44.720 --> 3:18:48.119 Here's here's Trump being confronted about this, Like, within hours 3:18:48.120 --> 3:18:49.600 of this Israeli strikes. 3:18:49.879 --> 3:18:50.560 You know what we have. 3:18:50.720 --> 3:18:54.240 We basically have two countries that have been fighting so 3:18:54.400 --> 3:18:57.160 long and so hard that they don't know what the 3:18:57.200 --> 3:18:58.039 fuck they're doing. 3:18:58.040 --> 3:18:58.879 Do you understand that? 3:19:00.640 --> 3:19:04.600 So that's a pissed off man, and he's pissed off again. 3:19:04.840 --> 3:19:07.040 I do think people are generally wrong when they're like, oh, 3:19:07.080 --> 3:19:09.760 Trump's much better on Israel because he can confront net Yahoo. 3:19:09.840 --> 3:19:12.160 That hasn't really proved to be the case yet. But 3:19:12.360 --> 3:19:16.120 unlike Biden, Trump clearly doesn't care about Like he's willing 3:19:16.160 --> 3:19:17.520 to be pissed at net Yahoo. 3:19:17.560 --> 3:19:22.320 And he was really pissed in this openly, like yeah, absolutely. 3:19:21.879 --> 3:19:24.400 Openly, very yeah, because again he's hanging a lot on 3:19:24.600 --> 3:19:27.320 like nobody would dare go back to war when I 3:19:27.400 --> 3:19:29.760 said they were at peace? Right, Like that's that this 3:19:29.840 --> 3:19:31.680 is like an ego thing for him more than anything. 3:19:31.720 --> 3:19:33.600 He certainly doesn't give a shit about the human cost 3:19:33.640 --> 3:19:37.120 of any of this. But yeah, and so that's where 3:19:37.120 --> 3:19:39.520 we are right now. Are we done? Will there continue 3:19:39.560 --> 3:19:43.240 to be more strikes and retaliation strikes. Something's gonna happen. 3:19:43.360 --> 3:19:46.800 It's not done, right, none of it's done. No. But 3:19:47.320 --> 3:19:51.280 you know, also, Iran's not stupid, right, This is a 3:19:51.360 --> 3:19:55.040 country that has been in these circumstances and in variations 3:19:55.040 --> 3:19:57.600 of this conflict for a long time, and they are 3:19:57.640 --> 3:20:00.920 neither foolish nor suicidal. So they're not going to be 3:20:01.480 --> 3:20:04.959 completely reckless here, right, Like I think you're seeing and 3:20:05.000 --> 3:20:08.000 what you've seen is pretty calculated responses where they are 3:20:08.080 --> 3:20:11.400 aware of how much they think they can push when 3:20:11.520 --> 3:20:13.920 and where, right, And so I, you know, I think 3:20:14.000 --> 3:20:17.560 we're likely to like I don't know that. I think 3:20:17.600 --> 3:20:20.240 the escalation ladder is in like a runaway state. I 3:20:20.280 --> 3:20:23.240 don't see that evidence right now. But this is not 3:20:23.360 --> 3:20:26.160 the end of this, right, Yeah. 3:20:26.200 --> 3:20:29.280 So something we got news of today in the last 3:20:29.320 --> 3:20:30.959 this is Wednesday. We got this in the last. 3:20:30.959 --> 3:20:34.800 Hour or so, is that Trump like send on TV 3:20:34.959 --> 3:20:36.720 the thing that you're not actually supposed to say, which 3:20:36.760 --> 3:20:39.720 is that the US and Iran coordinated to have the 3:20:40.040 --> 3:20:44.840 Iran shoot these bases. Oh my god, it's like okay, 3:20:44.879 --> 3:20:47.359 like they like we literally went on TV and said, quote, 3:20:48.360 --> 3:20:50.920 you saw that working vessels were shot at us the 3:20:50.959 --> 3:20:53.400 other day, and Iran was very nice. They said we're 3:20:53.400 --> 3:20:56.440 gonna shoot them at one at one Okay, I said, 3:20:56.480 --> 3:20:56.960 it's fine. 3:20:57.760 --> 3:20:58.879 Everybody evacuated. 3:20:58.959 --> 3:21:01.680 Not the basis Like obviously the US has always done this, 3:21:01.959 --> 3:21:04.480 but like we've never had the president go on TV 3:21:04.680 --> 3:21:08.320 and just say, yeah, we let Iran shoot empty military. 3:21:07.879 --> 3:21:11.280 Basis, Yeah we worked it out with them. Yep, yep. 3:21:12.160 --> 3:21:14.320 This highlights something that's so interesting when I when I 3:21:14.360 --> 3:21:17.080 say this, I don't mean to ignore the fact that 3:21:17.160 --> 3:21:21.199 real people are dying, like particularly in Iran. It's horrifying, 3:21:21.240 --> 3:21:23.160 But there is a massive degree of this at the 3:21:23.440 --> 3:21:26.879 at the the nation state level that is kfa right, 3:21:26.920 --> 3:21:29.120 and that that proves it like Iran is like okay, 3:21:29.160 --> 3:21:29.520 look k. 3:21:29.640 --> 3:21:32.640 FAE with the cost of like yeah, thousands of lives, 3:21:32.680 --> 3:21:35.839 people will die. Yeah, it's it's it's dick measuring. 3:21:35.680 --> 3:21:37.000 The fact that iron is only to talk with you 3:21:37.040 --> 3:21:38.879 us about like okay, what can we strike that's not 3:21:38.920 --> 3:21:40.640 going to escal things for you, like yeah, we'll pull 3:21:40.720 --> 3:21:42.920 you know whatever. And also that's to a degree that 3:21:43.040 --> 3:21:45.160 was going on with the strikes on Iran, right where 3:21:45.200 --> 3:21:47.240 they got enough of a warning that they were able 3:21:47.280 --> 3:21:51.120 to move their physical material right Like this is there, 3:21:51.320 --> 3:21:53.280 which is not to say that like things are like 3:21:53.360 --> 3:21:57.200 copasetic and friendly, but everybody's got everybody, but Israel has 3:21:57.280 --> 3:22:00.400 like a vested interest in things not escalating to much 3:22:00.520 --> 3:22:03.680 even the Trump administration, right has a vested interest in like, 3:22:03.760 --> 3:22:06.240 there's a line we don't want to cross because we 3:22:06.320 --> 3:22:08.800 just don't see any like benefit in it, right, and 3:22:08.840 --> 3:22:12.560 that is that is a part of what's going on here. Yeah, anyway, 3:22:12.800 --> 3:22:16.600 that's probably enough talk about Iran and news and stuff. 3:22:16.640 --> 3:22:19.640 But anyway, remember, folks, you too could be a nuclear 3:22:19.680 --> 3:22:21.240 power if you can just figure out how to make 3:22:21.240 --> 3:22:26.000 a functional centrifuge and get a shitload of uranium. You know, 3:22:26.400 --> 3:22:27.280 it's not that hard. 3:22:27.360 --> 3:22:30.080 It just comes out of the ground, depending on what 3:22:30.200 --> 3:22:30.879 that ground. 3:22:30.720 --> 3:22:32.160 Is, depending on where that ground is. 3:22:32.520 --> 3:22:36.080 Should you talk about immigration, sure, all right, I love 3:22:36.120 --> 3:22:39.680 immigration sadly, but Congress does not agree with you. 3:22:39.879 --> 3:22:41.720 They rarely do, James, they rarely do. 3:22:42.360 --> 3:22:43.720 Yeah, that is one of the things they say about 3:22:43.800 --> 3:22:47.080 Robot Evans. I want to start, actually with a little 3:22:47.959 --> 3:22:55.240 no disclaimer rant. Almost every day for the past six months, 3:22:55.320 --> 3:22:58.680 someone has sent me a tip saying that ice are 3:22:58.800 --> 3:23:02.440 rating a hospital. This has happened almost every month for 3:23:02.480 --> 3:23:07.120 the past ten years. I have received this tip thousands 3:23:07.120 --> 3:23:11.359 of times. To my knowledge, it has never been true. Nonetheless, 3:23:11.520 --> 3:23:14.800 this rumor persists, and especially among people who might be 3:23:14.879 --> 3:23:19.439 newer to migrant advocacy or newer to observing immigration enforcement. 3:23:20.240 --> 3:23:22.680 What is happening in one hundred percent of these cases 3:23:22.680 --> 3:23:25.400 that I have looked into, is the customs of Border 3:23:25.440 --> 3:23:30.360 Protection or ICE or some other immigration detention agency is 3:23:30.400 --> 3:23:34.240 taking somebody who is in their custody to the hospital, 3:23:34.840 --> 3:23:37.360 and then that person is getting treatment, and then they 3:23:37.400 --> 3:23:42.000 are released again to that immigration agency. Normally, those immigration 3:23:42.080 --> 3:23:45.080 agents can't enter non public areas of the hospital i e. 3:23:45.200 --> 3:23:48.200 Treatment rooms, but they can into public areas i e. 3:23:48.360 --> 3:23:48.800 Lobbies. 3:23:49.760 --> 3:23:53.240 This rumor, which continues to spread, which I've seen people 3:23:53.400 --> 3:23:58.920 including journalists sharing on social media, kills people right. I'm 3:23:58.920 --> 3:24:00.840 aware of one incident in which someone was having a 3:24:00.879 --> 3:24:04.280 medical emergency and didn't want to go to hospital, a 3:24:04.320 --> 3:24:08.080 medical emergency which could very well have killed them within hours, 3:24:08.520 --> 3:24:10.560 and didn't want to go to hospital because they had 3:24:10.600 --> 3:24:13.680 heard that ICE was at the hospitals. I understand that 3:24:13.760 --> 3:24:17.080 people are coming to this with varying levels of experience. 3:24:17.160 --> 3:24:20.199 It's cool, it's great that people are showing up for migrants, 3:24:20.600 --> 3:24:24.280 but people need to exercise caution around this because it 3:24:24.400 --> 3:24:27.880 is not harmless to spread that rumor unless you are 3:24:27.920 --> 3:24:29.880 absolutely certain that it is true. 3:24:30.480 --> 3:24:32.160 It hurts people and I. 3:24:32.320 --> 3:24:34.680 Keep seeing it and I think it's important to say 3:24:34.720 --> 3:24:39.360 something about it, including two other journalists. Okay, with that said, 3:24:39.440 --> 3:24:42.160 let's start with some good news about immigration. ICE agents 3:24:42.200 --> 3:24:46.160 in San Diego scattered from the San Diego Court when 3:24:46.200 --> 3:24:49.520 the newly appointed San Diego Bishop Michael Farm, who is 3:24:49.600 --> 3:24:53.279 himself a refugee. He was an accompanied miner from Vietnam, 3:24:54.040 --> 3:24:57.760 entered the court to accompany people to their immigration hearings. 3:24:58.400 --> 3:25:02.480 Bishop Farm was joined by Taha Hassane. I'm saying that 3:25:02.520 --> 3:25:05.640 correctly of the Islamic Center of San Diego and our 3:25:05.720 --> 3:25:09.200 Lady of Guadaloupe Church, Pastor Scott Santa Rossa. They say 3:25:09.200 --> 3:25:12.520 they're going to keep doing this quote as needed. So 3:25:12.959 --> 3:25:16.640 this is actually one of the very few things, at 3:25:16.720 --> 3:25:19.279 least in court houses, seems to have worked. 3:25:19.440 --> 3:25:19.640 Right. 3:25:19.879 --> 3:25:22.400 We've covered this in previous weeks that what is happening 3:25:22.480 --> 3:25:26.080 is that the government is dismissing the case against people 3:25:26.080 --> 3:25:29.680 and then immediately detaining them and forcing them to fight 3:25:29.720 --> 3:25:31.279 for their asylum well detained. 3:25:31.360 --> 3:25:31.480 Right. 3:25:31.520 --> 3:25:34.760 This has been happening all across the country. San Diego 3:25:34.959 --> 3:25:39.520 is the only place I'm aware of where religious leaders 3:25:39.560 --> 3:25:42.840 right from across the religious community are accompanying migrants to 3:25:42.879 --> 3:25:45.640 their detention hearings. So we saw Brad Lander doing this 3:25:45.720 --> 3:25:48.400 in New York politician, but this is the only instance 3:25:48.440 --> 3:25:51.160 I'm aware of where clerics are doing it, and it 3:25:51.200 --> 3:25:53.480 seems to have worked. It seems to have in this 3:25:53.600 --> 3:25:57.160 incident or in these instances, prevented ICE from detaining people. 3:25:57.640 --> 3:26:00.600 And like, I'm not a religious person myself, but I 3:26:00.600 --> 3:26:02.880 will say that I respect this. I think this is 3:26:03.800 --> 3:26:06.640 this is cool. I've reported before, I spoke a lot 3:26:06.680 --> 3:26:10.640 about Jesuits in the Darien Gap and the how impressed 3:26:10.760 --> 3:26:13.080 and in awe of their work with migrants I am. 3:26:13.440 --> 3:26:17.520 And I think this is another example of people organizing 3:26:17.959 --> 3:26:20.040 with groups and they might not normally organize with but 3:26:20.400 --> 3:26:22.440 that having really beneficial results. 3:26:22.520 --> 3:26:22.680 Right. 3:26:23.360 --> 3:26:25.720 This huge win for the woke Marxist pope as well. 3:26:25.879 --> 3:26:26.800 It's always good to see. 3:26:27.080 --> 3:26:27.320 Yep. 3:26:27.440 --> 3:26:30.880 Hell yeah, huge win for Marxism this week. Yeah, generally 3:26:30.920 --> 3:26:35.080 a big week for Marxism in other years. A district 3:26:35.120 --> 3:26:39.400 court has ordered another man, Geordian, Alexander Melga Saint Maron, 3:26:40.040 --> 3:26:45.200 returned from El Salvador. He's Salvadorian, but he was removed 3:26:45.520 --> 3:26:50.320 thirteen minutes after a court order barred his removal and 3:26:50.360 --> 3:26:52.760 thus he was removed in violation of that court order right, 3:26:52.760 --> 3:26:56.160 and the District Court has ordered him returned. I'm not 3:26:56.200 --> 3:26:59.320 aware if he's being returned yet. On Wednesday, we shall see, 3:26:59.400 --> 3:27:03.480 I guess, because the Supreme Court has allowed the Trump 3:27:03.480 --> 3:27:07.959 administration this week to continue removing migrants to countries which 3:27:07.959 --> 3:27:12.240 are not specifically noted on their removal orders. We spoke 3:27:12.280 --> 3:27:14.959 about this before, in the case of the attempt of 3:27:15.000 --> 3:27:18.520 the DODA to remove people to South Sudan. We've spoken 3:27:18.520 --> 3:27:20.879 about it in terms of removing people to El Salvador 3:27:20.920 --> 3:27:24.119 who are not themselves salvad are in right. This isn't 3:27:24.120 --> 3:27:26.600 really deportation, and I think rendition is a more accurate 3:27:26.600 --> 3:27:29.640 way to describe it. And it will certainly result in 3:27:29.680 --> 3:27:33.040 people facing hardship and more likely than not, people facing 3:27:33.080 --> 3:27:34.560 torture and probably being killed. 3:27:35.440 --> 3:27:37.400 It is a disaster. 3:27:38.080 --> 3:27:40.320 It was a very short and unsigned order, and the 3:27:40.480 --> 3:27:43.000 justices that it wasn't a final decision right, that they 3:27:43.120 --> 3:27:47.520 paused the Massachusetts District Court ruling, which had in turn 3:27:48.040 --> 3:27:52.279 paused the process. So the process is now ongoing again. 3:27:52.760 --> 3:27:55.800 It's worth noting that the Massachusetts District Court ruling didn't 3:27:56.400 --> 3:28:01.320 stop them doing it, it allowed them a meaning attempt 3:28:01.480 --> 3:28:04.279 at expressing their reasonable fear of torture. 3:28:04.800 --> 3:28:05.000 Right. 3:28:05.640 --> 3:28:10.800 Three justices dissented, so to Mayor, Kigan and Jackson. So 3:28:10.840 --> 3:28:13.200 to Mayor wrote the descent, I'm going to quote from 3:28:13.200 --> 3:28:16.920 it here briefly, apparently quote the Court finds the idea 3:28:16.959 --> 3:28:19.879 that thousands will suffer violence in far flung locales more 3:28:19.920 --> 3:28:23.199 palatable than the remote possibility that a district court exceeded 3:28:23.240 --> 3:28:26.280 its remedial powers when it ordered the government to provide 3:28:26.360 --> 3:28:30.080 notice and process to which the plaintiffs are constitutionally and 3:28:30.160 --> 3:28:34.920 statutorily entitled. As she pointed out, the government was seeking 3:28:34.959 --> 3:28:37.520 relief from this order in Supreme Court, but had also 3:28:37.560 --> 3:28:42.520 been openly flouting here right. This flouting of lower court 3:28:42.600 --> 3:28:46.840 orders lines up with a res Ruvenni, a DOJ lawyer 3:28:47.040 --> 3:28:50.840 who was fired for I guess not following the DOJ 3:28:51.000 --> 3:28:55.879 line in the Aberdegogavcia case. He filed a whistleblower complaint 3:28:55.879 --> 3:29:00.120 in Congress this week that the NAT has seen. You 3:29:00.160 --> 3:29:02.240 can read the whole article in the show notes, but 3:29:02.680 --> 3:29:06.720 in there you can hear Emil Bouvet, who's he was 3:29:06.760 --> 3:29:09.120 Trump's personal Laura in twenty twenty three. Trump is now 3:29:09.520 --> 3:29:12.840 nominated him to be a judge, but he tells DOJ 3:29:13.040 --> 3:29:16.400 lawyers that they need to be open to responding fuck 3:29:16.520 --> 3:29:21.160 you to court orders. The allegations in a whistleblower complaint 3:29:21.160 --> 3:29:24.800 are pretty concerning, right in terms of the ability of 3:29:25.520 --> 3:29:28.600 the courts to stop the DOJ doing anything. I would 3:29:28.720 --> 3:29:30.200 urge you to read it. It's going to be linked 3:29:30.240 --> 3:29:31.440 in the show notes. We don't really have time to 3:29:31.440 --> 3:29:33.080 summarize all of it here, but I think I think 3:29:33.120 --> 3:29:35.600 the fuck you comment summarizes it pretty well. 3:29:35.879 --> 3:29:46.480 Yeah, and speaking of things that you should buy, here's ads. 3:29:52.280 --> 3:29:56.240 We're back, And since we've just done ads, let's let 3:29:56.360 --> 3:29:58.960 James give an ad for something that's not a product 3:29:59.040 --> 3:30:03.080 or service but as better yeah things, if you have 3:30:03.120 --> 3:30:04.039 any money left. 3:30:03.840 --> 3:30:07.720 After investing in all the wonderful goal their appetites to 3:30:07.760 --> 3:30:09.920 want to sell you. One of the people who we 3:30:09.920 --> 3:30:13.080 have interviewed on this show extensively, who came into the 3:30:13.160 --> 3:30:17.680 Artistrates through Acumba and who provided us with a really 3:30:18.080 --> 3:30:21.200 in depth account of his immigration detention, has let me 3:30:21.240 --> 3:30:24.879 know that he is struggling to find a lawyer and 3:30:24.920 --> 3:30:27.160 pay for a lawyer. So far, he's been taking care 3:30:27.200 --> 3:30:30.400 of all of his legal paperwork himself, which is very admirable, 3:30:30.600 --> 3:30:33.520 but obviously, like many migrants, he understands his chance of 3:30:33.560 --> 3:30:35.680 the success will be much much better with a lawyer, 3:30:36.160 --> 3:30:39.080 something he himself is struggling to pay for right now 3:30:39.080 --> 3:30:43.440 whilst also supporting a family. If you would like to help, 3:30:43.720 --> 3:30:48.119 the link for that is www dot GoFundMe dot com 3:30:48.160 --> 3:30:52.960 slash f slash Standing with our Family. It will also 3:30:53.040 --> 3:30:57.000 be the first link in the sources for this episode, 3:30:57.000 --> 3:30:59.080 so if you're listening on your podcast app, you can 3:30:59.080 --> 3:31:00.959 scroll down to the show to find it that click 3:31:01.000 --> 3:31:02.600 it and help out if you'd like to. 3:31:04.000 --> 3:31:04.280 Well. 3:31:04.360 --> 3:31:07.039 I think it's time for Gahre's good news round up, 3:31:07.200 --> 3:31:11.880 and let's start with some actually like fantastic news. My 3:31:11.959 --> 3:31:15.640 mood Khalil has been released after one hundred and four 3:31:15.840 --> 3:31:17.640 days in ice custody. 3:31:18.840 --> 3:31:21.840 He missed the birth of his first child. 3:31:22.440 --> 3:31:24.640 Was it his first time meeting his child? Did he 3:31:24.680 --> 3:31:25.480 get to meet his child? 3:31:26.040 --> 3:31:28.760 I think he'd gotten one visit where he got to 3:31:28.800 --> 3:31:31.880 meet his kid, if if I'm remembering directly, it's still 3:31:31.920 --> 3:31:34.960 kind of about two thirds of the way through his detainment. 3:31:35.320 --> 3:31:39.160 But now he is back in New York as his 3:31:39.280 --> 3:31:42.320 case will continue. This is a good step in the 3:31:42.400 --> 3:31:46.000 fight against disappearing people for political differences. 3:31:46.240 --> 3:31:47.240 Like, this is important. 3:31:47.800 --> 3:31:49.959 This is possibly like the one of the most important 3:31:50.200 --> 3:31:54.960 national pieces of news. That's still a developing story right now. 3:31:55.080 --> 3:31:57.600 I've seen some responses that are like, yeah, so after 3:31:57.640 --> 3:32:00.160 one hundred and four days of being illegally detained and 3:32:00.400 --> 3:32:03.720 you know, a guy finally got released, this is still 3:32:03.720 --> 3:32:05.920 a bad thing, And like that's true, this is a 3:32:05.959 --> 3:32:08.800 bleak story. But like it's actually kind of like foolish 3:32:09.000 --> 3:32:12.240 to not acknowledge this as a significant win, right, Like, 3:32:12.680 --> 3:32:13.359 it's important. 3:32:13.440 --> 3:32:14.640 They did not want to release him. 3:32:14.640 --> 3:32:17.360 They wanted to keep him, Yeah, forever, they did not 3:32:17.520 --> 3:32:18.640 want to release him. 3:32:18.800 --> 3:32:21.959 Yes, this is good. This is a good thing, and 3:32:22.000 --> 3:32:24.720 it's proof that it is worth fighting because you can win. 3:32:25.200 --> 3:32:26.360 Yeah, Like every. 3:32:26.280 --> 3:32:27.960 Day he's not in jail and that he's with his 3:32:28.040 --> 3:32:29.480 family is a better day. 3:32:29.560 --> 3:32:32.120 Yes, is a win. Yeah, it's a victory. Yes. 3:32:32.840 --> 3:32:36.720 Also some good news in New York it is so 3:32:37.120 --> 3:32:42.440 clover Soran Mamdani won the Democratic primary for the mayor 3:32:42.600 --> 3:32:45.600 of New York City Tuesday night. 3:32:46.360 --> 3:32:47.480 This is quite exciting. 3:32:47.840 --> 3:32:49.600 I got to announce to a massive room full of 3:32:49.600 --> 3:32:53.720 trans people that Cuomo conceded to Zoron, and I have 3:32:53.840 --> 3:32:55.720 not felt better in months. 3:32:55.920 --> 3:32:58.640 It was like one of the one of the one 3:32:58.640 --> 3:32:58.959 of the. 3:32:58.840 --> 3:33:01.879 Brightest rays of hope that we've had, and a rejection 3:33:02.080 --> 3:33:06.000 of like the old Democratic Party establishment. Yes, Zoron had 3:33:06.000 --> 3:33:09.320 to beat like thirty million dollars of super pac funding 3:33:09.440 --> 3:33:13.520 against him. He mobilized the youth vote in ways we've 3:33:13.560 --> 3:33:16.440 never seen before in New York. A quarter of early 3:33:16.560 --> 3:33:21.200 voters for first time that Democratic primary participants. Zoron ran 3:33:21.280 --> 3:33:25.400 a very very solid campaign with slick videos online and 3:33:25.440 --> 3:33:31.119 on TV, multi language outreach, fifty thousand like on street volunteers, canvassing, 3:33:31.280 --> 3:33:34.959 door knocks, phone baking, and a distinct focus on affordability, 3:33:35.040 --> 3:33:38.720 including freezing rent, free buses, pilot program for city run 3:33:38.760 --> 3:33:42.240 grocery stores, free to low cost childcare, raising minimum wage, 3:33:42.360 --> 3:33:46.760 and resisting Trump's efforts to use ice to deport New Yorkers. 3:33:47.120 --> 3:33:49.879 Myself and Mia did a full episode yesterday if you 3:33:49.920 --> 3:33:52.600 want to have a more in depth look at the 3:33:52.680 --> 3:33:54.280 New York mayor roal primary. 3:33:54.840 --> 3:33:55.160 Yeah. 3:33:55.480 --> 3:33:59.240 We should also note here that per acbs New York 3:33:59.680 --> 3:34:03.280 inner with former Governor Cuomo. He has stated that he 3:34:03.360 --> 3:34:06.800 is considering running against Mom Donnie as an independent, So 3:34:06.879 --> 3:34:09.200 we'll see how that goes. We might get to see 3:34:09.240 --> 3:34:12.160 Cuomo lose twice in a year, which would be pretty funny. 3:34:12.920 --> 3:34:14.879 Yeah, I mean, honestly, I would be surprised if he 3:34:14.920 --> 3:34:18.200 actually decides to run in the general. A lot of 3:34:18.440 --> 3:34:22.040 like like Ackman is going behind Adams. It seems they're 3:34:22.080 --> 3:34:25.720 certainly going to be targeting from like Republicans and maybe 3:34:25.720 --> 3:34:27.440 even some den like establishments. 3:34:27.680 --> 3:34:29.160 Oh yeah, sure definitely. 3:34:29.240 --> 3:34:31.800 So to like remove Zoran as like a viable candidate, 3:34:31.840 --> 3:34:35.040 they're going to pull out some crazy like red scare 3:34:35.160 --> 3:34:37.959 communist shit from the fifties. Absolutely, they might try to 3:34:38.040 --> 3:34:41.800 remove his legal status as a citizen, like they're gonna 3:34:41.800 --> 3:34:45.160 pull out the stops. But this is like after the 3:34:45.160 --> 3:34:48.119 twenty twenty four election. This is like the first first 3:34:48.160 --> 3:34:51.480 like clear look at what a new Democratic Party could 3:34:51.520 --> 3:34:54.760 look like. And right now is the face of Zorrong. 3:34:54.920 --> 3:34:56.720 Yeah that's all I have. 3:34:57.480 --> 3:35:01.440 Yeah, and you know, it's nice to see a win again. 3:35:01.680 --> 3:35:04.760 It's like the Mahud Khalil thing, right, It's it's nice, absolutely, 3:35:04.840 --> 3:35:07.720 like this is this is good things can happen now? 3:35:08.040 --> 3:35:10.400 Does this mean is this a part of a fucking 3:35:10.480 --> 3:35:13.760 progressive wave that's sweeping the country. Does this prove that, 3:35:14.200 --> 3:35:17.480 you know, being pro Palestine and pro trans is the 3:35:17.520 --> 3:35:20.720 best electoral strategy in one hundred percent of districts? Now, 3:35:20.879 --> 3:35:23.080 like this is this is New York. We like, this 3:35:23.160 --> 3:35:26.440 is one election, but it's like good news and it 3:35:26.600 --> 3:35:29.320 it I think it there's a very solid possibility that 3:35:29.360 --> 3:35:32.000 we will see this as like part of a growing 3:35:32.040 --> 3:35:37.879 trend that when candidates are actually left wing and unabashedly so, 3:35:38.080 --> 3:35:40.200 when they don't try to tack to the middle, when 3:35:40.200 --> 3:35:43.720 they don't try to embrace you know, a hodgepodge of 3:35:44.240 --> 3:35:47.440 like contradictory policies in order to please some sort of 3:35:47.480 --> 3:35:52.200 like farcical median theoretical median voter, that they do better. 3:35:52.280 --> 3:35:54.560 I do think that, like maybe that's what we'll see. 3:35:54.560 --> 3:35:57.520 But you know, obviously one election in New York City 3:35:57.640 --> 3:35:59.840 is not a one one primary in New York City 3:36:00.120 --> 3:36:02.320 isn't enough to prove that like this is going to 3:36:02.400 --> 3:36:04.560 be the same kind of thing we see nationwide. 3:36:04.920 --> 3:36:07.080 I mean, but it did show how to mobilize like 3:36:07.480 --> 3:36:10.040 a huge number of like young people and like a 3:36:10.040 --> 3:36:12.240 lot of a lot of like young men, which which 3:36:12.280 --> 3:36:14.240 the Democratic Party has been like whining about for the 3:36:14.240 --> 3:36:14.800 past few. 3:36:14.640 --> 3:36:17.080 Months, terrible about Yeah, and that's a big. 3:36:16.920 --> 3:36:20.240 Deal, Like how do we reach out to the young 3:36:20.280 --> 3:36:23.640 men in this country? And like Zoron showed you how 3:36:23.640 --> 3:36:25.760 to do this, it's actually fighting for like real things 3:36:25.800 --> 3:36:26.760 that make your life better. 3:36:26.879 --> 3:36:30.520 You can get people excited about your candidacy. If you're 3:36:30.600 --> 3:36:33.680 standing for something and getting people excited, it's even more 3:36:33.720 --> 3:36:36.520 important than just being like, well, this theoretically polls the best, 3:36:36.520 --> 3:36:38.840 because if you do take all the positions that poll well, 3:36:39.080 --> 3:36:41.240 but nobody gives a shit and you don't have any 3:36:41.360 --> 3:36:44.320 kind of excitement or the ability to build like a 3:36:44.360 --> 3:36:47.600 grassroots ground game, then you'll do worse. Like if you 3:36:47.720 --> 3:36:50.440 have that behind you, if you have all that enthusiasm, 3:36:50.760 --> 3:36:55.160 you can make less popular positions more popular. That's how 3:36:55.360 --> 3:36:59.880 politics works, right, Look at Trump, you know, like the 3:37:00.120 --> 3:37:02.040 whole everyone's always wondering like how does he get away 3:37:02.080 --> 3:37:03.959 with all these things that were forbidden for so long? 3:37:04.440 --> 3:37:07.080 Is because he had a lot of enthusiasm behind them, 3:37:07.080 --> 3:37:10.160 and that wave allowed him to push a bunch of boundaries. 3:37:10.200 --> 3:37:11.879 And like that's how it works. 3:37:11.959 --> 3:37:14.720 It can work the other way too, if you try, 3:37:15.000 --> 3:37:17.720 if you're not just gutless if you're not a fucking shumer. 3:37:18.959 --> 3:37:21.480 So in less good news and the less good news, 3:37:21.520 --> 3:37:25.879 I mean really really horrible news, terrible news. Yeah, So 3:37:25.959 --> 3:37:28.560 last week we got the results of the United States 3:37:28.640 --> 3:37:33.359 versus Gremetti. I think most trans people have been expecting 3:37:33.400 --> 3:37:35.920 that this was going to be really bad, but it was. 3:37:36.200 --> 3:37:39.120 It was I guess technically not as bad as it 3:37:39.200 --> 3:37:43.800 theoretically could have been, but this ruling was. There's a six' 3:37:43.920 --> 3:37:48.400 three ruling that Upholds tennessee's yeah ban on gender affirming 3:37:48.440 --> 3:37:52.880 care for. Minors that ban IS i mean just like hideously. 3:37:53.280 --> 3:37:57.519 Illegal it's like very obviously ces. Discrimination The Supreme court 3:37:57.840 --> 3:38:03.480 gave genuinely LIKE i had a friend described, as like 3:38:03.520 --> 3:38:07.360 we're just in Pure calvin ball, Land like it's if 3:38:07.400 --> 3:38:08.720 you read the, decision it's fucking. 3:38:08.800 --> 3:38:11.400 Nonsense it's. Gibberish that also. 3:38:11.160 --> 3:38:13.280 Makes it hard to figure out what's gonna do because 3:38:13.320 --> 3:38:16.240 the legal reasoning is just so unbelievably. 3:38:16.320 --> 3:38:19.920 Nonsense like it leaves it it leaves in place the 3:38:20.120 --> 3:38:25.080 twenty twenty ruling on sex discrimination in the workplace for 3:38:25.120 --> 3:38:29.520 trans people, intact but it invents this new justification that 3:38:30.080 --> 3:38:33.000 you can discriminate against trans people if you're discriminating against 3:38:33.440 --> 3:38:38.240 gender dysphoria as a diagnosis specifically not necessarily them being, 3:38:38.360 --> 3:38:41.240 trans but but the ability to treat gender. 3:38:41.320 --> 3:38:44.120 Dysphoria, yeah it's it's really really fucking. 3:38:44.160 --> 3:38:47.879 Weird i'm probably gonna do like a full episode looking 3:38:47.920 --> 3:38:50.240 at like like bringing into actual legal people to talk 3:38:50.280 --> 3:38:53.199 about with degal. Impacts you're going to be this is really. 3:38:53.240 --> 3:38:56.760 Bad this means that like twenty five states bans on 3:38:56.800 --> 3:38:58.320 gender firming care go into. 3:38:58.400 --> 3:39:01.119 Effect. Yeah one of the. 3:39:00.800 --> 3:39:03.640 Worst parts of, this right is that you, know and 3:39:03.720 --> 3:39:05.840 this is this is one of the biggest issues with 3:39:05.920 --> 3:39:08.320 like targeting and trans kids in, general is that just 3:39:08.360 --> 3:39:10.520 the structure of the family and if childhood makes it 3:39:10.720 --> 3:39:14.000 really hard to help these kids because they're significantly more 3:39:14.080 --> 3:39:17.440 isolated than. Transadults, right it's harder for trans kids to find. 3:39:17.440 --> 3:39:20.320 Community it's harder for the community to find, Them. Yep 3:39:20.520 --> 3:39:22.600 and because of the structures in place, here like they 3:39:22.600 --> 3:39:24.480 are denied the autonomy to keep. Living and if their 3:39:24.520 --> 3:39:28.280 parents decide to just be like fuck, you we're just 3:39:28.320 --> 3:39:30.120 doing we're going to do conversion therapy on you by 3:39:30.160 --> 3:39:33.480 refusing to let you, transition they can do, that and 3:39:34.040 --> 3:39:35.440 it's extremely hard to resist. 3:39:35.440 --> 3:39:40.560 It, yeah the root of so much, AUTHORITARIANISM i would, argue, 3:39:40.560 --> 3:39:44.440 like the absolute core of the fascist movement is the 3:39:44.480 --> 3:39:47.960 idea that parents own their. Children, yeah and that like 3:39:48.040 --> 3:39:51.200 that is the most that is the single most important 3:39:51.200 --> 3:39:54.120 property right that, exists is your ownership of. 3:39:54.280 --> 3:39:56.360 Kids i'm going to, say it's bed time if we 3:39:56.440 --> 3:39:58.000 ready get to the core of, it isn't, It, Robert, 3:39:58.200 --> 3:39:58.760 yeah it's. 3:39:59.040 --> 3:40:02.240 No robert's go in full like no future queer, Theory 3:40:02.280 --> 3:40:04.039 LIKE I i agree with. 3:40:04.080 --> 3:40:07.119 You, no he's, Right, no this is THE i don't 3:40:07.120 --> 3:40:09.440 think this is even debatable as someone who has raised. 3:40:09.440 --> 3:40:11.879 It it's this and it's it's not a simple, problem 3:40:11.959 --> 3:40:15.800 right because like kids are not adults and shouldn't like 3:40:15.920 --> 3:40:19.440 have full autonomy about, choices like you, know because they'll 3:40:19.680 --> 3:40:21.959 they don't understand the world. Fully there's a degree to 3:40:21.959 --> 3:40:23.959 which kids need to be like. 3:40:24.480 --> 3:40:27.000 Guided, yeah you should stop a child if they're gonna 3:40:27.000 --> 3:40:29.119 walk into the street and get hit by a, bus right, 3:40:29.280 --> 3:40:31.320 yeah like grab a fire or. 3:40:31.280 --> 3:40:34.560 If they only want to eat candy for, dinner, Right, 3:40:34.640 --> 3:40:38.160 like that's there are. Limits but the idea that like 3:40:38.320 --> 3:40:41.920 and so parents own their, kids they're like that that 3:40:42.160 --> 3:40:44.560 is just it's pure poison and it's killing us. 3:40:44.600 --> 3:40:47.120 All and like more, broadly like guys who hate that 3:40:47.280 --> 3:40:49.240 kids are the fucking full front. 3:40:49.080 --> 3:40:49.959 Of fascism right. 3:40:49.959 --> 3:40:53.520 Now like, Yeah Elon musk Bought twitter because he hates his, Daughter, 3:40:53.640 --> 3:40:56.440 yes more more than if any any other. Thing like 3:40:56.680 --> 3:41:00.000 it's uh, yeah it's a repugnant. Ideology it's just. 3:41:00.040 --> 3:41:01.040 Gusting. Yeah. 3:41:01.120 --> 3:41:04.640 Yeah, anyway we'll do some sort of more detailed look 3:41:04.680 --> 3:41:06.840 at this that like that at some, point BUT i 3:41:07.120 --> 3:41:09.320 think we've you, know covered the. 3:41:09.360 --> 3:41:11.600 News, YEAH i, MEAN i think the last the last 3:41:11.640 --> 3:41:12.920 THING i want to say about that is like if 3:41:12.959 --> 3:41:14.760 your trends AND i know this was a bigger thing 3:41:15.360 --> 3:41:18.119 and the immediate wake of last, week but keep. 3:41:18.200 --> 3:41:23.720 Living yeah, yeah, yeah stay. Alive maybe get a passport 3:41:24.000 --> 3:41:25.880 because you can do that right. Now there's a lot 3:41:25.920 --> 3:41:27.680 of benefit even if you're not going to, travel if 3:41:27.680 --> 3:41:29.119 you don't have the money to, travel there's a lot 3:41:29.120 --> 3:41:30.160 of benefit in having that. 3:41:30.240 --> 3:41:30.440 Id. 3:41:31.120 --> 3:41:33.600 Yeah, yeah we're all going to see the sun rice 3:41:33.640 --> 3:41:35.840 together like we, are and it's going to be. 3:41:35.840 --> 3:41:38.840 Beautiful but do you know who won't is a man 3:41:38.879 --> 3:41:42.000 From norway who will probably never be seeing The United 3:41:42.000 --> 3:41:42.720 states ever. 3:41:42.920 --> 3:41:47.720 Again, god oh my, God, Okay, Garrison. 3:41:47.840 --> 3:41:49.720 So to finish this, episode we're going to talk about 3:41:49.720 --> 3:41:52.000 the one deportation we're kind of allowed to laugh. At 3:41:52.400 --> 3:41:54.879 not because the guy is. Bad the guy seems perfectly, 3:41:54.920 --> 3:41:58.480 fine but the circumstances around the deportation are so. Bizarre 3:41:58.600 --> 3:42:02.080 it's wild shit and it Affects. Norway so it's you, 3:42:02.120 --> 3:42:06.920 know it's like, Whatever garrison Anti norwegian, ACTION o no 3:42:06.959 --> 3:42:09.320 offense To. Norway i'm just, like it's it's not like 3:42:09.360 --> 3:42:11.320 this guy's getting deported to a place where he's in. 3:42:11.440 --> 3:42:14.119 DANGER i love You, norwegians even If garrison. 3:42:14.160 --> 3:42:16.800 Doesn't this is not a guy who's going to. Suffer 3:42:17.000 --> 3:42:19.760 he's not going To South, suda, beer life threatening or. 3:42:19.760 --> 3:42:20.400 Whatever he's. 3:42:20.440 --> 3:42:20.800 Fine. 3:42:20.920 --> 3:42:23.000 YEAH A norwegian man was coming to The United states 3:42:23.000 --> 3:42:26.240 for vacation and at the border check point AT i Think, 3:42:26.560 --> 3:42:31.760 newark he was questioned and handed over his. Phone on the, 3:42:31.840 --> 3:42:38.119 phone porter agents found a photoshopped picture of BABY JD 3:42:38.440 --> 3:42:42.360 v sorry of bald BABY jd. Vance yeah, yeah and 3:42:42.760 --> 3:42:47.160 for this, reason BABY jd denied entry into into The 3:42:47.280 --> 3:42:49.959 United states and deported back to Your. 3:42:51.480 --> 3:42:52.360 Thomas country On. 3:42:52.400 --> 3:42:56.640 Earth. Anyway said photo has now been shown in The 3:42:56.680 --> 3:43:00.920 Irish parliament because we live in it's beautif the world's. 3:43:00.959 --> 3:43:06.040 Beautiful they're Deporting norwegians for Jd vance. Memes, now this 3:43:06.120 --> 3:43:10.000 is the level that we're, At like The party Of 3:43:10.040 --> 3:43:15.360 Free speech deporting people who has have Jd vance memes 3:43:15.440 --> 3:43:15.960 on their. 3:43:16.000 --> 3:43:19.119 Phone, like on the one, HAND i think you can 3:43:19.200 --> 3:43:21.840 make the argument that fascism has always been this, stupid 3:43:22.040 --> 3:43:26.160 like google Google mussolini's headquarters and look at that. 3:43:26.200 --> 3:43:30.160 Building is this? Dumb but, like good, lord LIKE i, 3:43:30.320 --> 3:43:31.959 just oh my, GOD i have personal. 3:43:32.080 --> 3:43:35.600 Vanity there's such fucking tiny babies about. It like that's, 3:43:35.640 --> 3:43:38.400 like that's like the really defining characteristic of this era 3:43:38.480 --> 3:43:40.760 of fascism is that if you make fun of them 3:43:40.879 --> 3:43:43.400 the tiniest, bit it is the worst consequences they've ever 3:43:43.400 --> 3:43:46.160 stuffed in their entire, lives and they fucking lose their 3:43:46.240 --> 3:43:47.879 mind that everyone doesn't fucking love. 3:43:47.920 --> 3:43:51.000 Them, yeah they they're they're fully like willing and like 3:43:51.240 --> 3:43:54.879 desire to use the complete might of the states to 3:43:55.400 --> 3:43:58.920 uh to step on anyone who dares defy their, authority 3:43:58.959 --> 3:44:02.200 even even when that defiance is manifested through having a 3:44:02.240 --> 3:44:07.000 picture of baby Jd vance with a bald head like, 3:44:07.080 --> 3:44:09.840 that that is too. FAR i DON'T i don't know 3:44:09.840 --> 3:44:11.680 what else to say about bald BABY Jd. 3:44:11.800 --> 3:44:15.160 Fance you, know get get a, tattoo get a full 3:44:15.240 --> 3:44:18.840 facial tattoo or like a bin afflet. 3:44:20.720 --> 3:44:23.320 Denaturalized for YOUR jd events back. 3:44:23.400 --> 3:44:27.800 Tattoo you can't punish you not for a. Tattoo, no it, 3:44:27.879 --> 3:44:28.120 is it. 3:44:28.240 --> 3:44:30.840 Is it is funny how much vans in the border 3:44:30.879 --> 3:44:33.400 patrol do not understand the barber strikes that in. Effect 3:44:33.720 --> 3:44:37.400 this picture is now. Everywhere it shows how how HURT. 3:44:37.480 --> 3:44:40.879 Jd fance is by these, photoshops even though he's tried 3:44:40.879 --> 3:44:41.880 to laugh along in the. 3:44:41.920 --> 3:44:45.440 Past, Yeah i'd love to, know like how is there 3:44:45.440 --> 3:44:49.480 a directive that has come? Down like no streams did 3:44:49.560 --> 3:44:51.680 some like office and field operations, guy. 3:44:51.760 --> 3:44:54.560 Did they send it up To Stephen miller with like Hey, 3:44:54.560 --> 3:44:55.240 steven is this? 3:44:55.360 --> 3:44:56.920 Okay it seems like, no, no, no. 3:44:56.800 --> 3:45:00.160 It's somewhere a take offence on behalf Of Vaughan's like 3:45:00.320 --> 3:45:01.040 that could be very. 3:45:01.080 --> 3:45:02.240 LIKELY i think that is. 3:45:02.200 --> 3:45:04.800 What, Happened like that all of the data suggests that's what. 3:45:04.840 --> 3:45:08.240 Happened roberts talked about this like working towards the furor stuff. 3:45:08.240 --> 3:45:11.400 Before but like we're seeing a version of that, here, Right, like. 3:45:11.480 --> 3:45:13.600 Oh, YEAH i mean like all of the current border 3:45:13.640 --> 3:45:16.879 agents are Like trump cultists, essentially like they're they're the 3:45:16.879 --> 3:45:18.480 most evil people you will you will ever. 3:45:18.520 --> 3:45:21.160 MEET i, mean of the of all the federal, agencies, 3:45:21.240 --> 3:45:24.119 right IT'S cbp that has had the lowest vaccination. Rate 3:45:24.160 --> 3:45:27.400 they're playing One american use in their break, Rooms, like, 3:45:28.440 --> 3:45:31.840 yeah they are more ideologically sympathico with what's happening THEN 3:45:31.840 --> 3:45:35.080 i would imagine most OTHER feds. Are, yeah, certainly LIKE 3:45:35.160 --> 3:45:38.400 ice are pretty much in lockstep with The trump. Administration, 3:45:39.800 --> 3:45:44.360 yeah if you want to HELP, AMOS i guess don't 3:45:44.480 --> 3:45:47.879 send A. Jd vynce baby, meme but you can send 3:45:47.879 --> 3:45:53.840 your money again to GoFundMe dot com slash f slash 3:45:53.879 --> 3:45:57.760 standing with our. Family they'll be in the show notes, 3:45:57.800 --> 3:46:01.120 Too and if you would like to contact, us you 3:46:01.160 --> 3:46:06.200 can do so using proton, mail which is only encrypted 3:46:06.360 --> 3:46:09.040 end to end if you are sending from an encrypted 3:46:09.080 --> 3:46:12.840 email address like a proton mat. 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News, oh we reported the. 3:46:32.440 --> 3:46:32.960 News. 3:46:40.240 --> 3:46:43.440 Hey we'll be Back monday with more episodes every week 3:46:43.480 --> 3:46:44.879 from now until the heat death of the. 3:46:44.959 --> 3:46:48.280 Universe it Could Happen here is a production of Cool Zone. 3:46:48.320 --> 3:46:51.360 Media for more podcasts from Cool Zone, media visit our 3:46:51.400 --> 3:46:55.200 website coolzonmedia dot, com or check us out on The iHeartRadio, 3:46:55.240 --> 3:46:59.160 App Apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts can 3:46:59.160 --> 3:47:01.520 now find sources where It Could happen here listed directly 3:47:01.560 --> 3:47:02.039 in episode. 3:47:02.080 --> 3:47:03.920 Descriptions thanks for. 3:47:04.000 --> 3:47:04.400 Listening