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Speaker 1: Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you. But

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there is a topic that is too big for

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Speaker 3: just one podcaster. Sometimes a simple medical podcaster, a simple

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Speaker 3: wartime journalist can't handle a topic on their own. They

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Speaker 3: need to combine forces. A special team up has to happen.

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Speaker 3: And that, my friends, is what's happening today on this

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Speaker 3: special crossover edition of the House of Pod And it

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Speaker 3: could happen here in hop Ich Hoppitch special myself, doctor

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Speaker 3: cave Hote Hope I'm saying there correctly, and James Stout

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Speaker 3: are going to be talking to you, along with two

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Speaker 3: very special guests about what's happening out there in the protest,

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Speaker 3: What risks the protesters are facing, what health concerns we

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Speaker 3: have for them, how they can best prepare and more.

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Speaker 4: James, Hey, buddy. Hey, it's nice. Nice to be podcasting

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Speaker 4: with you again.

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Speaker 5: You really enjoy our team ups here, our special Marvel

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Speaker 5: team ups that we do.

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Speaker 4: It's a fait, it's a fun one. You're my favorite collaborator.

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Speaker 5: Covey. Hey, I'm going to.

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Speaker 3: Take that as total sincerity, even though I'm not entirely sure.

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Speaker 3: So I thank you for that. Yeah, because I think

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Speaker 3: that sounded sincere enough. I like these I like the

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Speaker 3: me too.

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Speaker 5: I do too.

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Speaker 3: Let's introduce our guests. We have some very special guests.

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Speaker 3: I will actually ask you guys to introduce yourselves. Let's

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Speaker 3: start with you, Miriam. Can you tell us a little

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Speaker 3: bit about who you are and what your background in

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Speaker 3: this field is.

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Speaker 6: Sure, Hi, I'm Miriam, she or they pronouns. My background

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Speaker 6: in the field of podcasting is that I'm with the

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Speaker 6: collective Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which puts out the

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Speaker 6: podcast Live Like the World Is Dying, as well as

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Speaker 6: the podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and the spectacle.

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Speaker 6: And my experience in the field of what I think

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Speaker 6: we're here to talk about today is that I've been

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Speaker 6: a street metic for over a decade, which means I've

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Speaker 6: treated a lot of injuries on people who've been messed

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Speaker 6: up by interactions with police.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we're going to talk about this more, but

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Speaker 3: my first question is, is it pretty much ninety percent

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Speaker 3: or more violence from the police that you encounter. Do

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Speaker 3: you ever encounter anything else, like violence amongst protesters themselves

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Speaker 3: or something else that happens along the way, or is

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Speaker 3: it solely what you're experiencing is treating violence from the

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Speaker 3: side of the police.

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Speaker 6: So that's a good question. It is mostly violence from police.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes it is violence from non state affiliated or or

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Speaker 6: at least not on duty fascists so you know, you're

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Speaker 6: proud boys, you know, other people like that, or just

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Speaker 6: generally sort of hostile right wing actors. Sometimes it is also,

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Speaker 6: you know, sort of underlying medical stuff more so, like

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Speaker 6: somebody has been out at the march all day and

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Speaker 6: they didn't bring their medication with them and so they're

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Speaker 6: having a seizure, and you know, then there's also environmental stuff.

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Speaker 6: You hate, stroke, your hypothermia, you're I was running to

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Speaker 6: catch up with the march and I stepped off the curb,

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Speaker 6: weird ow, you know, stuff like that. But in terms

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Speaker 6: of violence, yeah, it's it's mostly coming from the cops.

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Speaker 6: I've I've certainly never seen a friendly fire incident of

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Speaker 6: violence amongst amongst protesters. I'm sure it could happen, but

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Speaker 6: but I have not seen it. I've seen people that

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Speaker 6: I'm in the streets with or wherever with attacked by

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Speaker 6: by people who wish them harm, who are people from

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Speaker 6: the state or you know, like I said, not currently

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Speaker 6: on duty as cops, but you know, basically cops.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm digressing too far, and I need to introduce

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Speaker 3: her other guests. But I have another follow up question

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Speaker 3: and I need to ask. I'm so curious, Please, have

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Speaker 3: you ever had to take care of, say, someone on

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Speaker 3: the other side who's been injured.

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Speaker 6: So as anybody who works in any kind of emergency,

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Speaker 6: you know, medical response will tell you. Anybody who's an

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Speaker 6: a MT or even anybody who's like a lifeguard, the

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Speaker 6: first thing you do before you approach a patient is

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Speaker 6: established scene safety. So if a Nazi has been hurt,

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Speaker 6: it is not safe for me to approach that patient

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Speaker 6: because there's a Nazi over there.

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Speaker 3: I see, Okay, I think I'm picking up what you're

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Speaker 3: putting down on that one.

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Speaker 5: So it has not happened.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, anybody who is acting as a street medic is

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Speaker 6: acting under what called good Samaritan laws, you know, which

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Speaker 6: protect you from any kind of bad outcome. If you

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Speaker 6: start taking care of somebody, you know, start helping somebody

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Speaker 6: out in the streets based on whatever train you have,

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Speaker 6: you know. Same thing like if if somebody collapses at

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Speaker 6: a bus stop and you start doing CPR based on

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Speaker 6: the Red Cross class you took, that's good Samaritan stuff.

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Speaker 6: Same way, it does not obligate you to intervene, especially

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Speaker 6: in approaching somebody who is actively seeking to do you harm.

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Speaker 6: So I would not consider that within my within my lane.

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Speaker 5: Understood.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's introduce our second guest. We have doctor Richard Pharaoh,

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Speaker 3: who is a doctor in the Los Angeles area and

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Speaker 3: is a family practice physician.

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Speaker 5: May I call you Richard? Uh? Yeah, you may? Okay,

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Speaker 5: very good, Richard, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 7: Gotty, it's a pleasure to be on. You know, you

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Speaker 7: kind of mentioned it already. I'm Kelly Medicine. I've also

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Speaker 7: experienced in street medicine in the LA area. Also, you know,

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Speaker 7: this is obviously something that's really important to me right now,

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Speaker 7: given everything that's been going on. In the city and

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Speaker 7: also important for me just giving the fact that I'm

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Speaker 7: a Latino, I'm a proud Coaster, Rikan Cuban, and just

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Speaker 7: that's part of the huge reason why I'm in medicine.

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Speaker 7: So I'm really happy to have an opportunity to talk about,

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Speaker 7: you know, the ice protests and the stuff that's been

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Speaker 7: going on to protect our community.

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Speaker 3: That's great to hear. Can you tell us a little

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Speaker 3: bit about what you've been involved with recently down in

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Speaker 3: Los Angeles?

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Speaker 7: So I as far as what I've been involved in

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Speaker 7: in Los Angeles, you know, I've been coordinating with some

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Speaker 7: of my colleagues who I knew from residency and just

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Speaker 7: other colleagues just who are all involved in social justice,

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Speaker 7: as well as the CIR, the Physicians Union, you know,

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Speaker 7: who are engaged in trying to like provide medical support

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Speaker 7: to the protests in the area. So I've had experience

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Speaker 7: working on some of the protests that have occurred both

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Speaker 7: in LA and OC.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's really good to hear.

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Speaker 4: I think people will have been spending a lot of

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Speaker 4: time like watching footage the protests right in the last

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Speaker 4: I know what we weekend now, fuck knows, it seems

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Speaker 4: like a long time. I haven't been sleeping very much.

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Speaker 4: Give or take eight to twelve years.

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Speaker 6: Time has meant nothing. Yeah, March of twenty.

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Speaker 4: Twenty, yes exactly, yea, it is sixteenth or twenty twenty,

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Speaker 4: and here we are. I people would have seen a

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Speaker 4: lot of people get hurt, right, And I like, as

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Speaker 4: a journalist, like I was in La last week, you

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Speaker 4: kind of tend to get towards the more violent end

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Speaker 4: of things because that is our job. Most people who

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Speaker 4: go to protest don't get hurt, right, And I don't

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Speaker 4: want people to like hear anything we're saying today and think,

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Speaker 4: oh God, I'm going to get fucked up, because most

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Speaker 4: people don't get fucked up. And like my stunts, You

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Speaker 4: don't fight fascist because you think you're going to win

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Speaker 4: or you think you might not get hurt. You fight

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Speaker 4: fascist because they are fascists. And sometimes people do get hurt.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk about the ways that people get hurt.

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Speaker 4: Either of you is welcome to answer this, but like,

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Speaker 4: what are some of the common mechanisms of injury that

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Speaker 4: you see when you are out there street mega King,

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Speaker 4: when when the cops are out there hurting people.

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Speaker 7: I would say that like in terms of the things

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Speaker 7: that we would typically see. I just want to start

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Speaker 7: off by saying, like, absolutely, we're not out there just

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Speaker 7: because we know that we're going to be successful in

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Speaker 7: any type of advocacy. If that was the case, then

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Speaker 7: we wouldn't have that many people, you know on that front.

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Speaker 7: You know a lot of people know that it's you

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Speaker 7: might be losing ground, but you're not there because you're

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Speaker 7: trying to when you're doing it because you know that

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Speaker 7: you want to be on the right side of history.

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Speaker 7: You want to do the thing that you believe to

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Speaker 7: be morally right. As far as like the type of

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Speaker 7: injuries that you would typically see, I think in order

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Speaker 7: to answer this question, I would kind of break it off.

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Speaker 5: Into two sections.

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Speaker 7: Like you have mainly protests that have not evolved into

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Speaker 7: violent confrontations with law enforcement, and you have protests where

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Speaker 7: things like you know, for instance, right control agents have

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Speaker 7: been deployed in like the like the non you know,

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Speaker 7: dangerous side of things, Like you might have the kind

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Speaker 7: of stuff that you would encounter in any sort of

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Speaker 7: major events. You know, you're gonna deal with dehydration, You're

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Speaker 7: going to deal with people who are like in in

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Speaker 7: overcrowded areas that might you know, accidentally fall hit and

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Speaker 7: trip over one another. In those kind of circumstances, you know,

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Speaker 7: when we enter into the space where you know, riot

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Speaker 7: control agents are being involved, the quote unquote less lethals

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Speaker 7: non lethals, which I'm going to kind of go into later,

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Speaker 7: is a bit of a non uh a misnomer. In

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Speaker 7: those circumstances, we look at like chemical exposure to things

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Speaker 7: like to your gas. You know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 7: different ways that that manifests that type of exposure, and

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Speaker 7: we can kind of get into that a little bit

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Speaker 7: as well. And then also we have you know, projectile

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Speaker 7: weapons like rubber bullets, you know, flash bangs, those type

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Speaker 7: of things that you might encounter, you know, like sort

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Speaker 7: of blunt trauma to people's bodies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and you'd like to add Miriam.

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Speaker 6: I mean, first of all, like you're doing great out there.

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Speaker 6: Good for you for out there. It's a hell of

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Speaker 6: a time. There's regional variation, I think to some of

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Speaker 6: the stuff that we see. So I am based in

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Speaker 6: New York City. You know, not all of this the

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Speaker 6: work I've done has been in New York City, but

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Speaker 6: most of it has and in New York city. We

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Speaker 6: don't have tear gas. They just don't do it here

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Speaker 6: because the police found out after deploying tear gas extensively

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Speaker 6: during the RNC that the thing about tear gas is

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Speaker 6: it gets sucked into vents, and when it gets sucked

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Speaker 6: into vents, it gets on all kinds of people in

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Speaker 6: the subway and in buildings, and that causes lawsuits. And

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Speaker 6: the NYPD does not enjoy that, so they use pepper

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Speaker 6: spray instead, because pepper spray is more directed, it doesn't

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Speaker 6: linger in the air the same way. You hit the

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Speaker 6: people that you are trying to hit, you know, and

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Speaker 6: anybody else who's walking by, and also your buddies who

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Speaker 6: are standing next to you because you fired into the wind,

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Speaker 6: which is always a good time.

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Speaker 5: Any such cases, Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So many, There's a there's a whole series of what

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Speaker 6: we are calling locally peppa pigs, which are it's what

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Speaker 6: you think it is. So yeah, we see a lot

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Speaker 6: of a lot of pepper sprite. We also, because one

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Speaker 6: of the primary weapons of the NYPD are just sheer,

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Speaker 6: overwhelming numbers, we see a lot of just direct hands

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Speaker 6: on violence, just cops hitting people, punching people, throwing people

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Speaker 6: to the ground, we see a lot of very rough takedowns.

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Speaker 6: Now if you're you know, acting as a street medic

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Speaker 6: and in that situation, you don't get to treat those

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Speaker 6: people because if they are taking down by a cop,

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Speaker 6: they are then swarmed by many other cops and they

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Speaker 6: get taken away. Then that's something that we might see

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Speaker 6: when we meet that person later at jail support. But

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Speaker 6: the other weapon that we used to see quite a

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Speaker 6: bit but haven't in more recent years is the l RAT,

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Speaker 6: which is a sound cannon. They do still use it,

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Speaker 6: but they use it to like make announcements and annoy people.

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Speaker 6: They use it to like make obnoxiously loud announcements, but

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Speaker 6: not to blast out people's ear drums, which was sort

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Speaker 6: of its weaponized form. We haven't seen that recently though

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Speaker 6: police will willie you know, they all carry tasers. You

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Speaker 6: don't tend to see a lot of that at protests,

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Speaker 6: but it's certainly something that we're constantly aware that they

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Speaker 6: have the ability to do. But yeah, it is here.

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Speaker 6: It's mostly pepper spray, nightsticks, fists, knees, you know that

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Speaker 6: kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: I would assume that a lot of what they'd do,

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Speaker 3: like for example, tear gas was, to my understanding, first

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Speaker 3: developed in World War One really to cause confusion amongst

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Speaker 3: the enemy. And what I assume a lot of these

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Speaker 3: things that they're using, the sound canons, is to create

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Speaker 3: panic and confusion and hopefully get people to run and

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Speaker 3: move and in mass, unorganized ways. And I wonder if

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Speaker 3: you're seeing crush injuries, if you're seeing injuries related to

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Speaker 3: just the people moving and being scattered around and running

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Speaker 3: in different directions, is that something that you that you

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Speaker 3: have seen in this process, either of you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, just real quick, like to the first thing

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Speaker 6: you said, the absolute like the purpose of every police

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Speaker 6: weapon is to cause fear. One of the reasons that

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Speaker 6: I think they so often use things like to your

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Speaker 6: gas and pepper spray when they could simply choose to

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Speaker 6: not is like one, because they have it because their

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Speaker 6: budgets are outrageous and they have, you know, all the

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Speaker 6: weapons they could ever dream of, and why not you know,

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Speaker 6: well we have it. But I think that the other

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Speaker 6: reason they use it is because it does freak people out.

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Speaker 6: It scares people, and so you know a lot of

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Speaker 6: people have had like a big dude shove them before.

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Speaker 6: You know, that's like not a super unfamiliar situation. It's

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Speaker 6: not a great situation. People don't like it, but they

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Speaker 6: kind of they're familiar with it. They're familiar with the

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Speaker 6: concept getting sprayed by a mysterious chemical that makes you

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Speaker 6: feel a thing you've never really felt before. That's a

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Speaker 6: lot scarier. And you don't know what's in it. You

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Speaker 6: don't know what's on your body, you don't know why

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Speaker 6: it hurts the way it hurts like. You just know, like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I mean, I guess, I guess this is what tear

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Speaker 6: gas feels like. I guess this is what pepper spray

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Speaker 6: feels like. Yeah, it's frightening, and yeah, people absolutely get

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Speaker 6: hurt running away it makes it difficult to see. Like

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Speaker 6: squeezing your eyes shut is like a very immediate reaction.

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Speaker 6: So people run, They lose whoever they were at the

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Speaker 6: action with, they get separated from their group, they get disoriented,

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Speaker 6: they may be having trouble breathing. They may be panicking

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Speaker 6: because they're having trouble breathing. Then they're having trouble breathing

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Speaker 6: because they're panicking, you know. So yeah, you do absolutely

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Speaker 6: see all of that.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I really want to second what Miriam

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Speaker 7: has been saying here. You know, as far as like

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Speaker 7: the most common agent that you see in tear gas

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Speaker 7: in the United States at this time, it's believed to

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Speaker 7: be agents CS and this this is something like you mentioned,

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Speaker 7: it was developed right around the time of World War Two,

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Speaker 7: and they started like be coming into effect in the

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Speaker 7: in the in the late fifties. A point of thought

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Speaker 7: for this is it was actually made legal for use

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Speaker 7: in warfare in the nineties by the Geneva Convention. So

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Speaker 7: you don't see the US or other armies like using

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Speaker 7: this on soldiers, but we're using it in protests.

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Speaker 5: Well you don't.

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Speaker 6: You don't necessarily see the US military following the Geneva Convention.

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Speaker 5: Okay, well we can. That's a fair point. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Of the wars of law, the TAA gas is one

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Speaker 4: that it is walls of law. Those of wool people

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Speaker 4: do be using TA gas sometimes, but yeah, they shouldn't be.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and you're right.

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Speaker 3: Is first in the Geneva Conventions in nineteen twenty five,

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Speaker 3: but then nineteen ninety seven specifically it was prohibited. The

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Speaker 3: thought behind that is they did it because they didn't

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Speaker 3: want someone to get one gas and not know exactly

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Speaker 3: what it was. And then use the really nasty stuff

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Speaker 3: like sirin gas, et cetera. And the reason our police

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Speaker 3: are able to do it on our protesters is because

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Speaker 3: they're pretty confident that our protesters don't have it would

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Speaker 3: use siren gas, so they feel they feel free to

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Speaker 3: use it at our Yeah. But speaking of sound canons

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Speaker 3: and disturbing noises being shot into your ear holes commercials,

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Speaker 3: we'll be right back.

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Speaker 5: All right, we're back. We should talk about noxious gases.

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Speaker 4: There has been this persistent rumor, I don't just mean

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Speaker 4: in the last link ten days, there's been a persistent

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Speaker 4: rumor every time that people have been taar gused that

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Speaker 4: this time the cops are using super tear gas, special

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Speaker 4: tea gas, cancer ta gas. To be clear, like the

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Speaker 4: effects of tear gas on people, especially to my understanding,

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Speaker 4: like people who menstrate, are fucking long term and nasty.

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Speaker 4: So let's just address like what are the reagents in

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Speaker 4: tag gas and what are some of the outcomes we

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Speaker 4: can expect short term and long term? And then do

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Speaker 4: we suspect that the cups are using super tags this time?

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Speaker 7: Well, I guess in terms of like the agent, like

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Speaker 7: we kind of mentioned it a little bit ago, agencs

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Speaker 7: the more complicated long name, oh chlora benze laden melanitril.

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Speaker 5: So this is actually.

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Speaker 7: It's so that's absolutely the kind of thing you talk

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Speaker 7: about in dinner conversations. But the compound itself, it's actually

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Speaker 7: not in a gas form. It's actually a solid. It's

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Speaker 7: a crystalline substance that's released that's aerosolized after any type

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Speaker 7: of like explosion from you know, a grenade or canister,

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Speaker 7: and it's as far as you know the types of

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Speaker 7: things that you will experience. It takes effect in the

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Speaker 7: first twenty sixty seconds of contact with the body. It's

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Speaker 7: a nucleophilic substance, so that means it will adhere to tears,

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Speaker 7: it will adhere to moisture on your skin, like sweat,

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Speaker 7: any type of like saliva or mucus, and like the

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Speaker 7: first things you'll typically notice are the tearing, the redness, burning,

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Speaker 7: blurred vision in your eyes. Specifically on your skin, you

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Speaker 7: could develop burns or rash. A contact dermatitis has also

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Speaker 7: been associated with a development of this on your skin,

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Speaker 7: burning irritation in your mouth. You can also develop running nose.

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Speaker 7: The more kind of more serious, long term effects that

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Speaker 7: can be more systemic you can actually develop shortness of breath, wheezing,

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Speaker 7: or chest tightness. You can also develop nausea or vomiting

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Speaker 7: if you ingest much of it while you're in the

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Speaker 7: protest and you kind of already brought it up as well. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 7: we don't have a lot of systemic research that has

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Speaker 7: been done on the impacts of agents like CS that

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Speaker 7: are in tear gas on people, but we have a

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Speaker 7: couple of things that have come up about pregnancy outcomes.

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Speaker 7: We do see increased rates of uter and cramping, menstrual bleeding,

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Speaker 7: breast tenderness, and delayed menstrual ramping as well in pregnancy.

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Speaker 7: We also don't know how well it crosses into breast milk,

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Speaker 7: so you know, it's this kind of challenging question and

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Speaker 7: the CDC is official like stance on it is this

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Speaker 7: idea that like they don't believe that it crosses. But again,

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Speaker 7: we don't have that research, so we can't know for sure.

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Speaker 4: Great cool, good thing to be fogging Live city blogs with.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, we don't know everything it does, so probably

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Speaker 6: some of it is fine.

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Speaker 3: You know, James, when you're mentioning how it keeps coming

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Speaker 3: up and there's these concerns of there being.

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Speaker 5: Like a cause and cancer.

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Speaker 3: We have no proof of that right now, but I

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Speaker 3: mean we really don't know, so it is a little

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Speaker 3: concerning long term, especially journalists like yourself who are exposed

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Speaker 3: to it a lot, so that that is something I

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Speaker 3: would love to see.

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Speaker 5: But I mean, how you're going to study it? Who

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Speaker 5: going to find that? Yeah, I mean I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Rfka Junior might who knows.

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Speaker 3: It might be like we're not funding real research anymore

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Speaker 3: like vaccine.

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Speaker 4: So we get on the right pubcosts, we can probably

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Speaker 4: make that happen.

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Speaker 3: So before we move off of the gas, let's just

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Speaker 3: talk about, yeah, treatment of it and what you what

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Speaker 3: you will do out there in the field someone comes

383
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Speaker 3: to you, and let's try to address some of the

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Speaker 3: most common misconceptions about what you should be treating or

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Speaker 3: how you should be treating.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I'm so ready to go. Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 6: Since forever, there have been like rumors that there are

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Speaker 6: these I think because of sort of the way that

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Speaker 6: it is mysterious, like the cops have these, like you know,

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00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 6: containers of this awful poisonous, magical potion that they spray

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Speaker 6: on you, and then we have to find the antidote.

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Speaker 6: So things that I have heard as being good for

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Speaker 6: tear gas and pepper spray include raw onion, lemon juice,

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Speaker 6: apple cider, vinegar, Coca cola, avocado.

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Speaker 5: Delicious, it sounds sounds.

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Speaker 6: A nice great actually, and then the classic milk as

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Speaker 6: well as maylocks. My personal favorite is when somebody like

399
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 6: jumps into correct somebody on milk and it's like no, no, no,

400
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 6: actually it's milk of magnesia, not regular milk.

401
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 5: So oh you got to get it from which.

402
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 6: Is what you actually do is flush out the eyes

403
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Speaker 6: with water. I mean, that's it. That's the only thing.

404
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 6: It's water. The number of things that should go into

405
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Speaker 6: a human eye are basically water and any any medicine

406
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 6: that is designed for the human eye. And saline solution,

407
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 6: I guess you know. And definitely you could do an

408
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Speaker 6: eye flush with saline. It's just that if you have

409
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Speaker 6: saline in your bag, it weighs just as much as water,

410
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Speaker 6: and you can't drink it when you get tired.

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Speaker 5: You can, and way you can, but it's.

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Speaker 6: Not recommended and you can't refill it from a tap.

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Speaker 3: You can drink anything, James, if you're not a cow,

414
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Speaker 3: but if you have.

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Speaker 6: A bottle of water, you can do a bunch of

416
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Speaker 6: eye flushes, and then when it starts to run low,

417
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 6: you can refill it from a tap because that has

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00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 6: water in it too. It's very readily available water in

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Speaker 6: most places. And all of the other things that are

420
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Speaker 6: out there that people will tell you should use, you

421
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Speaker 6: should not use. I have never seen any good evidence

422
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 6: that any of them are better than water at getting

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Speaker 6: pepper spray or cheer gus out of your eye. All

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00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 6: of them are kind of predicated on this idea that

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Speaker 6: there's like a chemical reaction you are trying to affect.

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Speaker 6: And then that is sort of further based on the

427
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Speaker 6: idea that the reason this stuff hurts is because it

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Speaker 6: is acidic. Because I think people think, like, what's a

429
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Speaker 6: chemical that burns acid?

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Speaker 9: Right?

431
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 6: These are not acidic. That is not how they work.

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Speaker 6: They are chemical irritants. And you don't want an acid

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Speaker 6: base reaction in your eye anyway.

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Speaker 5: You want to be doing chemistry experiments in your eye.

435
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, you actually usually wear goggles when you do chemistry experiments.

436
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 6: I'm not like a chemist.

437
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 3: But memium water sure is great, But what about all

438
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 3: that fluoride you're getting into your eyeballs.

439
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 5: Okay, have you thought about that.

440
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 6: That'll prevent eye cavities, Richard?

441
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 5: Anything else to add to that.

442
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 7: I know, I think you hit the nail on the head,

443
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 7: and I think that when I look at what physicians

444
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 7: typically recommend in terms of response to your gas, I

445
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 7: always think back on the doctor Glockham fleckin thread that

446
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 7: became very popular on Twitter. I'd be very interested to

447
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 7: hear what your thoughts are.

448
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 5: We're on that.

449
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 7: Miriam I think like one of the things that tended

450
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 7: to come from from that particular thread because he does

451
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 7: have experiences as an ophthalmologist. He mentioned washing your eyes

452
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 7: with baby shampoo and rinsing copiously. I think like the

453
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 7: challenge with that is obviously, like what Miriaman mentioned. One,

454
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 7: water saline are the better options for for irrigating your eyes,

455
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 7: especially after exposure. For one, the fact that it's you know,

456
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 7: you never know what else, like it's it's better to

457
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 7: avoid any other type of irritants that you could, you know,

458
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 7: be exposed to your eye. Also the fact, like we

459
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 7: already mentioned, the fact that the agents into your gas

460
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 7: there they're nuclear filth, meaning they're they're attracted to water.

461
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 7: So by using water itself. You are effectively going to

462
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 7: help to irrigate it. And you know, we typically recommend

463
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 7: anywhere upwards and twenty minutes for that type of exposure.

464
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 7: And then as far as I'm not sure if you

465
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 7: mentioned milk already, Maria.

466
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 5: Milk counts me.

467
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't mention it enough eyeball cheese.

468
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 5: We cannot mention eyeball cheese.

469
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 9: And what.

470
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 8: Is the.

471
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 7: Let's let's think about what the context of where we

472
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 7: are in a protest. It's very typically outdoors for many hours,

473
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 7: usually in summertime. Exactly kind of like the idea of

474
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 7: putting this you know, this this culture on people's eyes, like.

475
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 5: I think yogurt, actually yogurt.

476
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 7: You may as well, you may as well go and

477
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 7: get some Greek yogurt and pour it on your eyes, so,

478
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 7: you know, he really gets back to the idea of

479
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 7: like constant irrigation. Clean water is perfectly fine. If you

480
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 7: have water at the protests, usually the best thing to

481
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 7: do is have the types of water bottles that have

482
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 7: like a flip off cap, so that way you can easily,

483
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 7: you know, pour it over their face and then recap

484
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 7: it for later use on someone else or yourself I

485
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 7: think the other thing too that's really important to discuss is,

486
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 7: you know, because it's this solid aerosolized substance, it can

487
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 7: sometimes adhere to your clothing, So you know, there's a

488
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 7: couple of different approaches.

489
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 6: You know.

490
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 7: Physicians for Human Rights has a PDF that I strongly

491
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 7: encourage anybody who's listening to a review if you find

492
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 7: yourself in the position of either being a protester at

493
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 7: a protest or being a medic at a protest, they

494
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 7: recommend if you've been exposed to your gas to hang

495
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 7: your clothing afterwards in a heavily ventilated place for up

496
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 7: to forty eight hours. If you're not able to do that,

497
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 7: placing your clothing in a plastic bag, including your shoes,

498
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 7: outside and not mixing it with any of your other

499
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 7: non exposed clothing is the ideal response afterwards.

500
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll add when doctor Glockinflecken was on our show

501
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: talking about this back during George Floyd, we discussed it

502
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 3: and the other thing that he recommended, and he is

503
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: actually not just a very very funny internet person, he's

504
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: also a very good ophthalmologist. And he also recommended initially

505
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: when it happens soon as you can blink rapidly. That

506
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 3: really helps in the sate the tear response. You're still

507
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: gonna need water, but it's going to help start get

508
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: that jump starter for you, and it's going to require

509
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: a lot of water. About one to two leaders is

510
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: generally what people will say. So it's hard to have

511
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 3: that much with you on hand when you're out there protesting,

512
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 3: but if you're able to, I feel like water is

513
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: one of the more important things you can bring with you.

514
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, So to the thing about the baby shampoo. First

515
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 6: of all, Yeah, I think the recommendation with that is

516
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 6: to wash the skin around the eyes with the baby shampoo,

517
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 6: not not directly in the eyes, but that that's like

518
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 6: a less harsh way of removing the chemicals from the

519
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 6: skin there, because you would definitely wash skin with soap

520
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 6: and water, but I could see maybe using like a

521
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 6: gentler soap directly around the eyes. That makes sense as

522
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 6: far as like my technique with doing an eyeflush in

523
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 6: the streets, a continual twenty minute irrigation just is not feasible.

524
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 5: Now.

525
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 6: Sometimes at big actions, you know, medics will set up

526
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 6: clinic space, says Tens, stuff like that, and occasionally very

527
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 6: Occasionally you can do the like true gold standard of

528
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 6: eye irrigation, which is twenty minutes of continual saline irrigation,

529
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 6: where you like have a bag of saline like in

530
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 6: a hospital and you plug it into a nasal canula

531
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 6: and you tape that to the bridge of the nose

532
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 6: and just let the person lie down. That works, but

533
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 6: like it's just not feasible in most street situations. So

534
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 6: what I do is I will basically I'll put on gloves.

535
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 6: I will get consent, because you know, anytime you're treating

536
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 6: somebody who's been brutalized by the police, you are like

537
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 6: you are treating an assault victim, and you should prioritize

538
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 6: their consent as much as you can. So I, you know,

539
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 6: do a quick like, hey, what's up. My name's Miriam,

540
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 6: I'm a medic. Can I help you. I guide them

541
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 6: out of the area of immediate danger if they can't see,

542
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 6: and then I flush first one eye twice, and then

543
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 6: I have them blink a whole bunch, and then the

544
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 6: other eye twice, and I have them blink a whole bunch,

545
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 6: and then they're usually able to open their eyes and

546
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 6: navigate safely on their own. Sometimes they need another round

547
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 6: with that, especially if I didn't you know, if I missed,

548
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 6: you know, if it's dark and there things are moving

549
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 6: around and I miss the eye or something. But usually

550
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 6: that gets enough out that they are going to be

551
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 6: able to navigate the situation. And because they are tearing

552
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 6: a lot, that's part of the flush too, right, the

553
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 6: body is doing that on its own and flushing too

554
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 6: much with water. I think in that initial moment, you're

555
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 6: just washing away tears at that point, so doing like

556
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 6: a first round of like forceful of forceful flush. You know,

557
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 6: you're really like using a forceful stream to push the

558
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 6: chemicals out. And then Okay, their eyes are open, they're

559
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 6: still in pain, and like that's just gonna last for

560
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 6: a while. Your eyes are going to continue to hurt,

561
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 6: and like that sucks. You've been harmed. Somebody did a

562
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 6: harmful thing to you, and you are going and to

563
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 6: continue to have pain for a little while. But if

564
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 6: you can see that, your immediate danger is reduced and

565
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 6: you can get out of there, and you can, you know,

566
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 6: in a calmer moment, maybe do another couple eye flushes.

567
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 6: Maybe you know, use soap and water on the face,

568
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 6: clean up a little bit and like be a little

569
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 6: bit happier with how you feel. But my priority in

570
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 6: the immediate moments after somebody's been spread is to like

571
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 6: help them so that they can get out of there

572
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 6: if they need to, because they probably do.

573
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

574
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, speaking of things that will make you tear up,

575
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm terrible commercials stay tube will be right back, beautiful.

576
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 4: All right, we are back, and I guess let's talk

577
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 4: about rubber bullets of various impagnations, and then let's talk

578
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: about how people actions people can take to keep themselves

579
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 4: a little bit safe. Right, understanding that you are not

580
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 4: the one who gets to choose if violence arrives at

581
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 4: your protest. The cops are. And we're recording this on Sunday,

582
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 4: like date in June, and people had their big No

583
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 4: Kings March yesterday. They were largely like extremely nonviolent, and

584
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 4: they still got attacked by the cops in La. So

585
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 4: let's talk about impact munitions.

586
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: Right.

587
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 4: One thing we didn't mention actually was pepper balls. I've

588
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: had the a combo, yeah right, I've had the ill

589
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 4: fortune and receiving some pepper balls in the balls. Oh yeah,

590
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 4: very uncomfortable. Cops will try and shoot you in the groin.

591
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 7: I had a colleague who encountered this just a few

592
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 7: days ago.

593
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 5: I'm sorry they fucking like, there's no.

594
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, it happens with such frequency that you'd have to

595
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 4: be really trying to believe that it was an accident.

596
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 4: So let's talk about things that can hit you, right,

597
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: if we start with pepper balls and then move on

598
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 4: up to like what people call rubber bullets, which I

599
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 4: think baton rounds is like a more technical description of

600
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 4: what they are, or marker rounds for a big foam

601
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 4: or rubber things that hit you. Sometimes they leave a

602
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 4: little puff of chalk on you, and theory like that

603
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 4: identifies you for the cops to arrest you. I guess

604
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 4: in practice it's just another thing that they can use

605
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 4: to smash into you. But let's talk about some of

606
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 4: the things that the cops can shoot from their little guns.

607
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 4: Bean backgrounds is another one, right, that comes out of

608
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: a shotgun, and it's what it sounds like, right, It's

609
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: a bean bag traveling very fast. Somebody here in San

610
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 4: Diego lost their eye to one of those in twenty twenty.

611
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 4: But let's talk about some of these impact munitions and

612
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 4: like what the potential risks are for people there.

613
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that.

614
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 7: I mean, just the one point I want to bring

615
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 7: up in terms of these they're often called in the

616
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 7: media non lethal or quote unquote less lethals. Yeah, and

617
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 7: I think that what's really important to recognize, and you

618
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 7: kind of already hinted do with James, people have been

619
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 7: killed with rubber bullets, plastic bullets.

620
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 5: We actually have.

621
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 7: Amnesty International did a report in twenty twenty three that

622
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 7: you know, showed that over the course of about five years,

623
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 7: you know, dozens of people have died as a result.

624
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 5: Of the use of rubber bullets.

625
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 7: We showed that between nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty nine,

626
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 7: just in Ireland, sixteen people were killed. In Palestine, between

627
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 7: eighty seven and ninety three, twenty people died just from

628
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 7: the use of rubber bullets. And you know, that's reports.

629
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 7: We don't know how many in truth actually were impacted

630
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 7: by that.

631
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

632
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 3: I would also add to the British Medical Journal back

633
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen looked at about two thousand little bit

634
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: or two thousand people who had been affected by these projectiles,

635
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: and three percent actually did cause immediate mortality and then

636
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 3: fifteen percent was long term chronic injury or illness or

637
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: some sort of being maimed from the event. So, yeah,

638
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: you're exactly right. It's pretty significant, especially with the number

639
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 3: of these that are shot. You know, they don't have

640
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 3: to keep record about how many of these they shoot.

641
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 3: So Actually, one other question I have for you, Richard,

642
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 3: that you could help answer to one in LA did

643
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: you see them shooting these things and you would kind

644
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 3: of allude to that you felt that they were actually

645
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 3: directing them towards you. Did you feel that, being there

646
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 3: as a medical professional, that you were being targeted.

647
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 7: I myself was fortunate and not hit by a rubber bullet.

648
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 7: From witnessing my colleagues who were actually there present at

649
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 7: this protest, they themselves were hit with HERR bullets below

650
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 7: the navel. He had previous experience from an earlier protest

651
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 7: that week where he had actually been struggling. The thing

652
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 7: he told me that I remember is like, I'm never

653
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 7: going to one.

654
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 5: Of these things.

655
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 7: I'm prepared again. Yeah, because he did have that situation

656
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 7: where he was kind of hit closer to the groin,

657
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 7: So we ended up wearing I remember he was wearing

658
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 7: a kind of a fanny pack for this particular protest

659
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 7: that we were at, and you could very clearly see

660
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 7: the dust marks, like the chalk marks of their bullets

661
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 7: struck on this on his on his fanny pack. Yeah,

662
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 7: you know, it's it's it's definitely something that we noticed.

663
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 7: Many of the other medics at this event commented that

664
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 7: they had been previously struck or targeted once they the

665
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 7: police began firing rubber bullets. As far as we we,

666
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 7: fortunately we didn't see anybody who was struck, you know,

667
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 7: closer to the face. But there were reports after the

668
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 7: No King's protest yesterday that you know, several people had

669
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 7: been struck in the eye or on the forehead. There

670
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 7: was one picture, i think earlier from earlier this week,

671
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 7: that one of the reporters in downtown La had been

672
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 7: struck with a non lethal foam round directly in his

673
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 7: forehead and it was this you could see this very clear,

674
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 7: enormous wealth the size of like a grapefruit, Yeah, and bleeding,

675
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 7: and it was it was you know, very clearly like

676
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 7: aiming above at the face.

677
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 5: In these cases.

678
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was a huge number during the Chilean protests

679
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 6: in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, eye injuries were huge. There

680
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 6: were hundreds. There's a there's a club somewhere of journalists

681
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 6: who've lost eyes to rubber bullets. I think they call

682
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 6: themselves the Cyclops Club or something. They're writers, they you know.

683
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 6: But yeah, like, these things are incredibly dangerous, and eye

684
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 6: injuries especially are really common. They are less lethal only

685
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 6: in that it is less likely to kill you than

686
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 6: being shot with live ammunition. But like most things are

687
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 6: less likely to kill you than live ammunia.

688
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 5: Grizzly barry is less likely to kill you.

689
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 3: My friend Rebecca Watson says, you know, samurai blade is

690
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: less lethal than AK forty seven, but it's still not

691
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: something you want them to have to use against you.

692
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 4: Ideal if you weren't being attacked doing what is a

693
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 4: constitutionally protected rate in the US. Hey, everyone, I just

694
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 4: wanted to record a little pick up here to explain

695
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 4: a little bit more I guess about forty millimeter and

696
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 4: thirty seven millimeter less lethal projectiles. They are sometimes called

697
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 4: baton rounds that I saw baton round written on the

698
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 4: Safari land thirty seven millimeters one, but they are not

699
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 4: the same as the baton rounds. You will have seen

700
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 4: British military using in Northern Ireland. Most of the modern

701
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 4: ones that I am aware of are not designed to

702
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 4: be skipped off the ground, albeit there deserately are, or

703
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 4: at least were rubber bullets that were designed to be

704
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 4: skipped off the ground at one point. The use of

705
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 4: a bullet made of rubber that's fired out of a

706
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 4: conventional rifle is very rare. In the United States, there

707
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 4: are things called simmunitions, which are munitions fire out of

708
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: a conventional rifle using a different bolt, and they are

709
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 4: generally used for simulated force on force training. You can

710
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 4: think about it like going paintballing, but with regular guns

711
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 4: orbit with a bolt that makes it so you can't

712
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 4: load live ammunition into that gun while it's set up

713
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 4: for simmunitions. Those will use extensively. I believe in Columbia

714
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 4: identified some simmunition casings. I've not seen those used by

715
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 4: police anywhere in the United States. What the LAPD uses

716
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 4: is a forty millimeter exact impact round. It has a

717
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 4: plastic body and a sponge nosed and that is designed

718
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 4: to be point of an point of impact right, so

719
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 4: shot at someone like you would.

720
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 5: Shoot a gun at somebody.

721
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 4: There are other leslethos in use even in LA I

722
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 4: saw a thirty seven millimeter Safari land round. I saw

723
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 4: FN three H three's, which is like seventeen millimeter. I

724
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 4: saw pepper balls, various different versions of leslethal munitions, but

725
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 4: most of the ones that I'm aware of in twenty

726
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 4: twenty five are designed for point of a point of impact.

727
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 4: They're also extremely dangerous, and as we've said here, they

728
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 4: can kill you. It's wanting to clarify that, So like, yeah,

729
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 4: these things are dangerous, right, like they have caused serious

730
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 4: injury or death. Let's assume for a minute that like

731
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 4: the folks listening have not attended many actions before, right

732
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 4: that they are right, they're younger or like they just

733
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: haven't been in that world in that part of their life,

734
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 4: and they've seen what's happening recently, and they're pissed off

735
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 4: and they want to attend, but they're afraid, right, and

736
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 4: they want to know what they can do, what they

737
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 4: can bring, how they can prepare themselves in the understanding

738
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 4: that like, it isn't one hundred percent safe because the

739
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 4: cops can decide to attack you whenever they want. What

740
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 4: can people bring? How can people prepare to be as

741
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 4: safe as they can be.

742
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 6: Bring water, I mean not just the eyeflushes, but like

743
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 6: bring snacks and water. Like you're going to be out

744
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 6: there for a while, you need to keep yourself going.

745
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 6: You need to keep your friends going. Bring friends like

746
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 6: be there with somebody who is going to watch your back,

747
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 6: somebody who knows a number for like your emergency contact,

748
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 6: you know, if you get grabbed stuff like that, especially

749
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 6: if you're new to the It's like, try not to

750
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 6: run alone.

751
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, even if it's like just hooking up

752
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 4: with people when you get there.

753
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 5: You know.

754
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've been at a protest that was starting to

755
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 6: look scary and a woman turned to me and said,

756
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 6: I'm here alone. Are you here alone? And I said yeah,

757
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 6: and she said, now we're here together, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

758
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 6: which is beautiful.

759
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 4: It's a good place to make friends.

760
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 7: It's a very like honest feeling to have. I mean,

761
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 7: you're seeing for the problem for many people is probably

762
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 7: the first time that you're seeing someone aiming a project

763
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 7: out at you and am aiming a firearm at you

764
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 7: and firing. So yeah, you know, there's a good reason

765
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 7: to feel worried. That's like the fact that we have

766
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 7: to worry about that in this country period is you know,

767
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 7: it's very chilling. I think that, you know, Miriam mentioned

768
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 7: it bringing friends is really important. Something else that like

769
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 7: we've talked about in circles in LA I think is

770
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 7: like really understanding going in What is the amount of

771
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 7: risk that you are willing to take entering into these

772
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 7: spaces I think is extraordinarily important. I think of my

773
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 7: colleagues who were at the UCLA protests earlier during the

774
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 7: Palestine movement. Yeah, they kind of asked the question like

775
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 7: they kind of framed it in like green light, yellow light,

776
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 7: red light, Like in terms of green meaning like I'm

777
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 7: okay with you know, whatever risks might be involved, like

778
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 7: as far as like what my understanding of what this

779
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 7: protest could entail, yellow being like I'm I'm not prepared

780
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 7: to go so far as to be arrested, but I'm

781
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 7: willing to be present on record if necessary, serve as

782
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 7: a witness for my other colleagues who are going to

783
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 7: be in this space. Red meaning you know, I'm not

784
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 7: necessarily prepared at this point to go that far. I

785
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 7: don't I want to support, but I also don't want

786
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 7: to get arrested. And I think it's important to like,

787
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 7: you know, recognize that not necessarily shame other people in

788
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 7: terms of like where they're at in this.

789
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, understand Yeah, absolutely, because because everybody comes at

790
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 10: this from different places.

791
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 7: I think it's really important, like when you're in these

792
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 7: spaces to like, you know, kind of understand the risk

793
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 7: of the other people who are alongside you, because if

794
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 7: you're a medic and you're trying to treat other people

795
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 7: and then you have all of a sudden you're by

796
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 7: yourself because the other people are like, well, I you know,

797
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 7: this is what I sign up for out Yeah, that

798
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 7: is also scary, even if you're you know, you're very

799
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 7: willing to be there.

800
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

801
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 7: So I think just having those conversations and planning more

802
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 7: than anything, planning, planning, and planning is extraordinarily important.

803
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

804
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 3: I think that's very well said, great points, and everyone

805
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 3: has a different level of risk. And just to be

806
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: totally clear for our listeners, there was over two thousand

807
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: different protests yesterday and there was the minimal amount of

808
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 3: violence and they were all peaceful. For the protesters were

809
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: the vast, vast, vast majority peaceful and things went fine,

810
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 3: and some like the one I attended was actually kid friendly,

811
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 3: so there was it was a safe place. But particularly

812
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 3: in certain places, there's always a small chance, if not large,

813
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 3: and depending on the police presence there, that things could

814
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: go the wrong way, and it is something to keep

815
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 3: in mind. So I particularly like your point regarding everyone

816
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 3: has a different level of risk and that's okay, you're

817
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 3: still contributing.

818
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 5: I'm not.

819
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not a place myself where I'm planning

820
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: on getting arrested. That's just not something I want to do.

821
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: But I would like to protest that I would like

822
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 3: to support.

823
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 5: In along those lines.

824
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 3: What are ways that other people who have medical backgrounds

825
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: could potentially contribute or support.

826
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 7: You in terms of the ways that like medics can

827
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 7: you know, respond in these situations. I think for me,

828
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 7: I have you know, a box of medical equipment that

829
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 7: I want to go to bring on site, like I'm

830
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 7: obviously like and said, I'm bringing water because that's going

831
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 7: to be foremost like my most useful tool to help

832
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 7: anybody who's going to be affected by things like that,

833
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 7: like to your desk, you know, as far as other

834
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 7: things like having extra masks, I think is really really important,

835
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 7: you know, because it's a huge way of reducing respiratory

836
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 7: exposure to the aerosols that are going to be in

837
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 7: the air. And then eye protection, eye protection, eye protection. Now,

838
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 7: the thing about like, you know, we've seen different types

839
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 7: of protection for your eyes that are effective. We've seen

840
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 7: goggles being used like the ones that you would you

841
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 7: would see in a lab. They're not actually effective unless

842
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 7: you close the sides the vents with tape because otherwise

843
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 7: the aerosols actually can still get inside the mask and

844
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 7: irritate your eyes. So if you are going to be

845
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 7: like bringing that type of eye protection, it's important to

846
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 7: think about that. There's like some higher end, you know,

847
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 7: more effective tools that provide both eye protection and helping

848
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 7: to filter particles. Just using a basic goggle mask with

849
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 7: the vents covered in an N ninety five for just

850
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 7: about anybody, I think is a useful tool. So having

851
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 7: those types of supplies for people who need them is

852
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 7: helpful for sure.

853
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 6: And as far as like a really low risk thing

854
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 6: that people with medical training can do is show up

855
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 6: to jail support, because that's like that is a huge

856
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 6: way you can help not just people who are arrested,

857
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 6: but anybody coming out of jail is by doing jail support,

858
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 6: and what that entails is hanging out where people get released.

859
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 6: People will usually bring food, drinks, clothes, shoelaces. People often

860
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 6: get out without shoelaces, belts, and like a couple of

861
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 6: you know, extra layers of clothes if people get let

862
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 6: out and it's cold, and check out people's injuries. Often

863
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 6: people will be taken to the hospital during processing if

864
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 6: they have something that the police can't ignore. But people

865
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 6: often get released with injuries and it can be really

866
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 6: good to have somebody there who can evaluate them. Honestly,

867
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 6: it's often just giving them like a judgment call on

868
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 6: do you think this needs somebody else to take a

869
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 6: look at it, you know, in a professional environment, or

870
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 6: can I put some ice on it and go home?

871
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 6: Type thing. And almost everybody getting out of jail has

872
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 6: handcuff injuries if they were arrested in a mass arrest

873
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 6: because in mass arrest situations, cops tend to use the

874
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 6: plastic zip tizes, which can get incredibly tight, even more

875
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 6: so than metal handcuffs, which have a little bit a

876
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 6: little length of chain. They strain the shoulders, especially larger people,

877
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 6: especially if somebody has a bag on their back. Cops

878
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 6: will often cuff them in such a way that the

879
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 6: bag pushes on their hands and makes the cuffs increasingly tight.

880
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 6: And having a medical professional or a street medic or

881
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 6: even somebody who's like just there to like take a

882
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 6: look and be like, yeah, man, I see that that's

883
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 6: really fucked up that they did that to you. I'm

884
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 6: so sorry can be useful. Having somebody there to witness

885
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 6: and acknowledge and to document. If somebody is planning on

886
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 6: doing something with that, you know, then that's important too.

887
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 6: So if you cannot be arrested, find out what's happening

888
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 6: with jail, support and go support them because that's chill,

889
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 6: that's calm now. I mean, there are no guarantees in

890
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 6: this world but now, but it is far more likely

891
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 6: to be chill and calm. Yeah, and you can hang

892
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 6: out and eat snacks. Oh and this is the one

893
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 6: situation where medically speaking, bring cigarettes. People want cigarettes when

894
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 6: they get out of jail, and they deserve a fucking cigarette.

895
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 6: Is it good for them?

896
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 8: No?

897
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 3: I know, I just am sorry. I hate cigarettes so much.

898
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 3: I listen. I'm not going to say you can't, but

899
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 3: I will never give someone a cigarette. It goes against

900
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: things I just can't listen. There's certain lines I will

901
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 3: draw as a doctor. One I have to help everybody

902
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: even if I don't like them. Two, I can't give

903
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 3: them cigarettes even if I like them. So I just can't.

904
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 3: Those are two things I can't bring myself to do.

905
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 3: The cigarette one really adjusts me crazy, but I get it.

906
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 6: In that case, maybe bring some cards for whatever your

907
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 6: local public transit is, or failing that, you know, have

908
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 6: some cash on hand to send people home in a

909
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 6: taxi or have somebody who standing by with a car

910
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 6: to help people get home. Stuff like that that's really

911
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 6: important for jail support, perhaps even more than a cigarette.

912
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would add that.

913
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 4: Another thing you can do if you're medically like a

914
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 4: medical professional. Especially it's helped other people learn really big

915
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 4: sic skills. You don't even have to be at a protest, right,

916
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 4: it could be a week later. There are medical professionals

917
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 4: who do street medic training. You can teach people stop

918
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 4: the bleed in a day and potentially save someone's life.

919
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 4: And so if it's something that you you know, are

920
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: skilled enough to teach, and you need to be honest

921
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 4: about whether you're skilled enough to teach that or not,

922
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 4: you know if you've watched a for you YouTube videos

923
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 4: and you're not, that's something you could use to really

924
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 4: help other people who are who are going to be

925
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 4: there at a time when you're not comfortable or safe

926
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 4: being there. I guess for the end of the show

927
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,479
Speaker 4: to wrap up, if people are just attending to be

928
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 4: fucking mad and there are a lot of people who

929
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 4: are fucking mad right now, what should they bring? And

930
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 4: if people want to access training right like, what are

931
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 4: some some resources that you would suggest. What are some

932
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 4: types of training in terms of like first aid that

933
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 4: people can access, so that people should access if they're

934
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 4: the thinking of attending these things and they're worried.

935
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 7: I mean, I think in terms of the type of

936
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 7: first aid that you need to be really conscious of,

937
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 7: especially in any any type of like event where you're

938
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 7: going to be with a lot of people and you're

939
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 7: going in as a medic. And this isn't just for protests.

940
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 7: I think it's for any type of event. We do

941
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 7: live in a world where unfortunately there is a lot

942
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 7: of mass shootings. Even if they're firing rubber bullets, we

943
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 7: don't know who else may also attend, who may also

944
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 7: be going with the intention of being violent, So I

945
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 7: mean you mentioned it yourself, stopped the bleed. Having basic

946
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 7: understanding of how to what types of on the field.

947
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 7: First aid should be done. For individuals who have got

948
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 7: received a gunshot wound, I think is really important if

949
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 7: they've been struck by a car. We've already seen earlier

950
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 7: this this weekend that there were shootings in I believe

951
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 7: in a couple of different cities. It's I'm missing which

952
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 7: one unfortunately happened, but I do know of at least

953
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 7: one report of a tesla being driven into a crowd

954
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 7: of protesters this weekend, So it was, Yeah, if.

955
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 6: I get killed by a tesla, I'm going to be

956
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 6: so fucking mad.

957
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 5: Indignity.

958
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 3: That is actually the thing that concerns me the most

959
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: most protest is some actor coming in from outside to

960
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 3: do something like that. That part really does concern me,

961
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 3: especially because so many of these are, are, like I mentioned,

962
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: kind of family friendly, and they should be. I think

963
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 3: families for the most part, should be able to come

964
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 3: to these things. So that is something that I'm always

965
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: constantly on the lookout for.

966
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, cause fucking scammy, like I experienced car bombs in

967
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 4: my career, but also just like cause. Driving into crowds

968
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 4: of course undult damage and Americans do be loving large

969
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: cause and the cops won't stop them.

970
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 5: Like, at least in La.

971
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 4: My experience with the cars were kind of in and

972
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 4: out the whole time, and that did not make me

973
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 4: feel secure.

974
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 7: We had one individual who was stood in front of

975
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 7: a van that was carrying ice agents and that person

976
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 7: essentially got run over them in that situation, I know

977
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 7: they were not at all stopping for.

978
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 4: That because it's a big risk, Like I guess with

979
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 4: that in mind, one thing I think about sometimes and

980
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 4: these things is like you don't want to be going

981
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 4: into this, like like traumatizing yourself by doing this. But

982
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 4: a degree of situational when is to include what are

983
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 4: my points of cover and what are my ways out?

984
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 5: Is good to have.

985
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it helps, It helps me feel safeer anyway.

986
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, And that's another huge reason to always run with

987
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 6: a buddy, right because if you're running with a buddy especially,

988
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 6: I mean I think I personally think that if you

989
00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 6: are doing medical stuff, you should always have a buddy

990
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 6: just because if you're going to be stopped and like

991
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 6: somebody's got to watch your back and like it's and

992
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 6: you know you might need a second opinion. You can

993
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 6: call in that buddy for a consult. You know, the

994
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 6: Medic collective that I that I run with On really

995
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 6: big action days, we'll put together like little bingo cards

996
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 6: that will distribute to all the Medic buddy pairs as

997
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 6: a situational awareness game. So like, if we're all rolling

998
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 6: out to this, you know, to a big, big action,

999
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 6: we'll put like they'll be squares for like a cop

1000
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 6: who clearly is not awake, or your ex or you know,

1001
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 6: a person who forgot sunscreen, or you know, just just

1002
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 6: things to look out for. Yeah, and I think honestly

1003
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 6: like making a little bit of a game like that

1004
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 6: if you're going to be out all day can be

1005
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 6: kind of fun. And it also makes you keep looking.

1006
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 6: It makes you not just look down at your feet

1007
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 6: as you as you march another mile, you know.

1008
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1009
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: Please, a's another great reminder. Please prepare for the weather,

1010
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 3: prepare for the elements. Bring water, bring sunscreen, bring hats,

1011
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 3: all that stuff.

1012
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 4: Sunscreen can trap the chemical irritant next to your skin.

1013
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 4: I like to wear a sun hoodie like you can

1014
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 4: get hoodies with a SPF. I am a palass person,

1015
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 4: right some of you can see.

1016
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 5: Me for listeners. It is indeed true.

1017
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 6: I was gonna say, is that sun hoodie? Why you

1018
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 6: in no way have a watch tan?

1019
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:25,919
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1020
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, friends, trends can see my absolutely brutal tan

1021
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 4: right now, absurdly white. When I was a bike racer,

1022
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 4: I used to have the logos of my sponsors burned

1023
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 4: into my back and that was cool and normal. That's unsettling,

1024
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 4: yeah right, yeah, yeah, that was a political moment for me. Actually, yeah,

1025
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 4: I like to wear sun hoodie because sunscreen it can

1026
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 4: trap irritants against your skin. But if it's a creamy kind, right,

1027
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 4: I think after point it absorbs and it doesn't. But

1028
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 4: I've definitely experienced that kind of paste on your skin

1029
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 4: kind of situation. Interesting, some of the nalist like injuries

1030
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 4: I've seen have been heat related at protests. If you're

1031
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 4: organizing a protest, don't send it straight up a fucking hill,

1032
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 4: like I just don't let like like go easy on people.

1033
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 4: You know, the people will be bringing a lot of

1034
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 4: stuff and they have science and stuff like the might

1035
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 4: whether comfy shoes, like could go easy on them with

1036
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 4: the with the hill climbing, and then because you're doing

1037
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 4: it in the middle of the day often as well,

1038
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 4: like you know, don't hurt people, Richard. I know you

1039
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 4: were going to mention somebody else.

1040
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 7: The thing I was trying to mention this is this

1041
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 7: is less so for i'd say ems non physician individuals. Actually,

1042
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 7: before the podcast, I had a chance to talk with

1043
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 7: one of the regional vice presidents for CIR, the Physicians

1044
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 7: Union that I was formerly a part of when I

1045
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 7: was in my.

1046
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 5: Residency, Kayla.

1047
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 7: She has a lot of experience being involved in protests

1048
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 7: and street medicine, and the thing that she likes to

1049
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 7: mention is like, physicians have a tendency to want to

1050
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 7: do a lot in a moment, and so Miry mentioned

1051
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 7: situational awareness. I think situational awareness is extremely important. Being

1052
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 7: able to know when you have the time to do

1053
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 7: a certain intervention versus when it's time to get this

1054
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 7: person out of here and to a safer place, I

1055
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 7: think is like very very important. Yay, so less does

1056
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 7: more in these situations, is what I would say, is

1057
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 7: pretty important.

1058
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, Well.

1059
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 4: The thing I do like as a journalist primarily not

1060
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 4: a visual one, I often work with photographers right as

1061
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,720
Speaker 4: a two person team. I have been a photographer protest

1062
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 4: in the past, and your world is very small than

1063
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 4: that viewfinder, and it's kind of the same. If you're

1064
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 4: helping someone right who's injured, that becomes your whole shit.

1065
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 4: I will have my physically have my hand on my

1066
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 4: photographer a lot of the time on their back right,

1067
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 4: and if they need to start moving backwards, I am

1068
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 4: going to start moving them backwards. Obviously, you don't want

1069
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 4: to leave someone who's hurt, but like if you're the buddy,

1070
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 4: it's good to be that close to the person who's

1071
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 4: providing care so that you can have a way out

1072
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 4: if you need to have a way out.

1073
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: This was so incredibly useful and helpful and insightful. We

1074
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 3: appreciate both of you coming on. Let's close up here.

1075
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 3: What I would like to do is not only plug

1076
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: something for yourselves, but what I'd like to hear and

1077
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 3: our listeners actually enjoy, is to hear something that's bringing

1078
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 3: you some joy in these times. Some piece of media, art, film, book, podcast, anything,

1079
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 3: you name it, a good restaurant that you really love.

1080
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 3: You want to give a shout out to whatever it is,

1081
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 3: something that's bringing you a little bit of joy. So

1082
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 3: let's do those two things. Marian, Let's start with you.

1083
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 3: What can we plug and what's something that's bringing you

1084
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 3: some joy?

1085
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 6: So thank you for having me on. This was delightful.

1086
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 6: So I will plug Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which

1087
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 6: is the collective that I'm a part of. You can

1088
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:00,280
Speaker 6: find us at Tangled Wilderness on Blue Sky and Instagram

1089
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 6: and nowhere else. And we have a website which is

1090
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 6: Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have a Patreon, all

1091
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 6: that stuff. But the main thing I want to tell

1092
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 6: you about those guys over there is that James and

1093
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 6: I did a podcast recently for the show Lives Like

1094
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 6: the World is Dying on protest health and safety, and

1095
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 6: we go really in detail on specifics of gear, specifics

1096
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,439
Speaker 6: of first aid techniques, and I think people should maybe

1097
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 6: check it out if they're if they're going to be

1098
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 6: out there.

1099
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 5: We'll put it in the show note.

1100
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, because we're professional podcasters like that.

1101
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 4: You can crazy on it to make it happen here

1102
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 4: if you'd like to find the show notes.

1103
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 5: Right. Wait, Miriam, So what's the thing that's bringing you joy? Oh?

1104
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 5: I have remember that, Joey.

1105
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:50,439
Speaker 6: I'm familiar with the concept. I have been rewatching the

1106
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 6: Shira and the Princesses of Power cartoon.

1107
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 5: Wow, nice, love it. What about Jim? She is outrageous.

1108
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 6: You know they didn't read make that as an overtly

1109
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 6: queer Netflix series, so I have had less exposure to it.

1110
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 6: But you know, cartoon sword lesbians can't argue with it.

1111
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, that sounds pretty awesome, all right, Rachel? What about you?

1112
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 7: As far as something to plug, A huge pleasure of

1113
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 7: being able to work on Blue Sky helping to put

1114
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 7: together the med Sky feeds. So if you're on Blue Sky,

1115
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 7: be sure to subscribe to our labeler so that way

1116
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 7: you can get your medical specialty on your accounts and

1117
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 7: you can get your posts on one of our forty

1118
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 7: different feeds. And then also as a Latino, I can't

1119
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 7: leave the podcast without mentioning also we are working on

1120
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 7: Latin Sky and it's the amount of latinidad and joy

1121
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 7: that I've been seeing on that feed over the last

1122
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 7: few days, despite the pain, it's been very inspiring. So

1123
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 7: I think that's like the plug that I want to

1124
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 7: put out there. And as far as the thing that

1125
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 7: brings me joy right now, I like I was torn.

1126
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 7: I heard it like a bunch of people have already plugged,

1127
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 7: and or so.

1128
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna plug, and or you can.

1129
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 7: You Yeah, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna give some

1130
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 7: love to Ryan Coogler's Sinners, which.

1131
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 5: Is easily one of them movies.

1132
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 7: I have seen in at least the last five years.

1133
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 7: It is an extraordinary movie. Every everything about that movie.

1134
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 5: Is like art.

1135
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 7: I just hope that Ryan Cooler can just make original

1136
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 7: movies for the rest of his life and that he

1137
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 7: doesn't have to like be stuck doing franchise stuff, because

1138
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 7: when he's just given a canvas, he he makes beautiful,

1139
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 7: beautiful art.

1140
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, right on, right on.

1141
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 3: That's for so James, what about what about you?

1142
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 5: What we plug? What can you plug? For you? What

1143
00:59:58,520 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 5: can I plug?

1144
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 4: That was a hot dog guy who went on the

1145
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 4: freeway in Los Angeles when everyone else went on the freeway.

1146
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 4: So that person's a fucking hero. I would let you

1147
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 4: know if you're if you're in the I'm vegan, so

1148
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 4: you know, maybe the bun. But for the rest of you,

1149
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 4: get after it. You know you can. You can listen

1150
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 4: to my podcast. You may be already are It could

1151
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 4: happen here if you haven't listened. It would mean a

1152
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 4: lot to me if you had listened to the podcast

1153
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 4: I made in the Daddian Gap last year when I

1154
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 4: traveled with migrants who were on their way to the

1155
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 4: United States. Those people and those their stories are really

1156
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 4: important to me. So if you would listen to one

1157
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 4: thing I ever made, it would be that you can

1158
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 4: find it by searching Dadien where Dreams Die, and then

1159
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 4: it could happen here podcast and it will come up

1160
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 4: unless you're using a really shit search engine a Google

1161
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 4: has been even more fucked by AI. And then, in

1162
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 4: terms of stuff that gives me joy, recently, I have

1163
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 4: been listening to like the music of the anti apartheid movement. Again,

1164
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 4: I kind of when I was a very young person,

1165
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 4: my sort of first exposure to activism was through people

1166
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 4: who had resisted apartheid in South Africa, and they were

1167
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 4: very inspiring to me, and they still are very inspiring

1168
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 4: to me. I listened to that music with them, right,

1169
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 4: Like apartheid, to be clear, ended when I was eight

1170
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 4: years old, but like it was cool because it seemed

1171
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,479
Speaker 4: like at that point the good guys were winning, right,

1172
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 4: and so here we fucking are Anyway, I listened to

1173
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 4: that because it.

1174
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 5: Reminds me that they always lose in the end.

1175
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 4: So yeah, I enjoy like like the Specials and Eddie

1176
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 4: Grant and even the incredibly eclectic sun City album.

1177
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 5: Great choices, Great choices.

1178
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 3: And for if you happen to be listening on the

1179
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 3: House of Pod, you've heard James come and talk about

1180
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 3: the Darien Gap. That was a really amazing story and

1181
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 3: it resonated with a lot of listeners, and you should

1182
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 3: listen to the full multi part series that he put

1183
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 3: out on that if it's so much better, So please

1184
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 3: do that for me. If you happen to be listening

1185
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 3: on it could happen here. Listen to the House of Pod.

1186
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 5: You like it.

1187
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 3: You'll hear James and lots of people you already know

1188
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 3: love and meet some new people. And you'll hear us

1189
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 3: make fun of medical grifters in the wellness community and

1190
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 3: that sort of.

1191
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 5: Thing as well members of the Cabinet. And I can't

1192
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 5: believe it. Yeah boy.

1193
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 3: As for the thing that's bringing me joy, I recently

1194
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 3: had a chance to expose my kids on a long

1195
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: drive to the work of Jeff Buckley, who is for

1196
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 3: you younger listeners out there, you may not know who he

1197
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 3: was because he unfortunately passed away when he was only thirty.

1198
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 3: But he was really a once in a generation talent

1199
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 3: who was a voice. His songwriting transcended different genres. There

1200
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 3: was rock, there's jazz, there was folk. He could span

1201
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 3: a vocal range that just really is amazing. And you

1202
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 3: only had one studio album, Grace, but it is amazing

1203
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 3: and highly recommend that or really any of his live album's,

1204
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 3: Mystery White Boy, They're all fantastic. His cover of Leonard

1205
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 3: Cohen's Hallelujah is the best version of it in my opinion.

1206
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 3: I will fight you. I will fight you. If you

1207
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 3: say rufus waynewright better, I will physically fight you. So

1208
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 3: it's just raw and beautiful and I hope you guys

1209
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 3: check it out if you haven't already. Last thing I

1210
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 3: will plug June twenty eighth, if you happen to be

1211
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 3: in the Bay Area, my band will be playing at

1212
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 3: the Hotel Utah in San Francisco. It is one of

1213
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 3: my favorite places to watch or play music and it's

1214
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 3: just super fun. Come up and say hi, and we'll

1215
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 3: chat and we'll maybe share a drink.

1216
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,919
Speaker 5: If we have time. Okay, thank you all so much.

1217
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 5: Thanks James. This was fun. Huh, Yeah, that was fun.

1218
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 5: It was beautiful. I had a nice time. Let's do

1219
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:52,439
Speaker 5: it again.

1220
01:03:52,520 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 11: Okay, bye, hello, and welcome to it could happen here.

1221
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 5: I'm here once again with it's James again.

1222
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: Great to talk to you again, James.

1223
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, likewise, glad to be here.

1224
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: You know, I spend a lot of time thinking about

1225
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: the world and how it works and all that jazz,

1226
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: and I.

1227
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 5: Assume you do as well.

1228
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 4: I do, yeah, yeah, increasingly worrying about the word.

1229
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1230
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 1: This place, this home is quite the puzzle. And much

1231
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: like a puzzle, it has been carved up and divided

1232
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: in so many different ways, sliced, labeled, ranked, and measured

1233
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: from all kinds of different angles. And that's really what

1234
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm interested in talking about today, the different ways that

1235
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: we try to explain the differences we see on the

1236
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: global stage. So going from the concept of civilized and primitive,

1237
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 1: to the East and West binary, to the imagined communities

1238
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: called nations, to the clash of quote unquote civilizations, to

1239
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: the concept of first, second, and third worlds, to the

1240
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: development spectrum, to the global North and global South, then

1241
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 1: finally to the core and the periphery. So we have

1242
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 1: a lot of ground to cover in this episode.

1243
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I really like this stuff. Like as a historian,

1244
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 4: like we're always kind of forced into certain divisions, right,

1245
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 4: Like even when you apply to you to your funding,

1246
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 4: right like you're normally in like a geographical area, or

1247
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 4: like you're trying to shoehorn something that's just interesting into

1248
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 4: one of these boxes that gets funding. And I think

1249
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 4: like often that impacts how we see the world, so

1250
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 4: we have to write with that goal.

1251
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I find the way that we approach the

1252
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: telling of history so fascinating And in another life maybe

1253
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: I would have been historia.

1254
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 4: I never I can recommend it. Yeah, yeah, it's I

1255
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 4: enjoy the doing of history. It's the doing of academia

1256
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 4: that I don't enjoy so much.

1257
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 1: So I suppose as a historian, I'm going to ask

1258
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: you a discomforting question. Great, would you consider yourself civilized

1259
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: or primitive?

1260
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 5: Oh? That's a fun one.

1261
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 4: I don't know, Like I don't like that binary because

1262
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 4: I think it's it's a value statement, right, And I think,

1263
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 4: like James Scott talks about this, Actually this is a

1264
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 4: really interesting I've had this. James Scott right talks about

1265
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 4: the idea of people who exist outside of the state

1266
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 4: being labeled as primitive by the state. It's in the

1267
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 4: art of not being governed, and that that's sort of

1268
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 4: the narrative there. The inherent message is that the state

1269
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 4: is the final and superior form of human organizing and

1270
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 4: people who have chosen to exist outside it are not

1271
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 4: because they chose to, but because they haven't made it

1272
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 4: there yet. And of course Scott problematized that suggests that

1273
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 4: maybe it's a choice, not a failure to accede to

1274
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 4: that civilization. And it's a concept that like young Burmese

1275
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 4: fighters have echoed back to me, I don't.

1276
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 5: Think they're aware of James C.

1277
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 4: Scott if I'm being honest, but they they will say

1278
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 4: to me, like when, because when they left the cities

1279
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 4: to live with the ethnic revolutionary organizations there, they had

1280
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 4: always been told that the reason those people lived outside

1281
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 4: of the Burmese state was because they were primitive, violent,

1282
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 4: But then they came to live and fight alongside them,

1283
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 4: and they were like, no, these are a family. They

1284
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 4: were brothers and sisters and siblings, and like they want

1285
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 4: the same thing as us, Like they're not primitive, they

1286
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 4: just don't want the state. So I guess in that sense,

1287
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 4: I would want to be labeled as primitive too. I

1288
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 4: think the primitive people are doing cool shit and then

1289
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 4: the civilized people are not.

1290
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's one of I think one

1291
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: of the one you're in Global binary is one of

1292
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: the oldest. Yeah, you'd hear that sign of that kind

1293
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: of just position or civilized and primitive or civilized and barbarians.

1294
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1295
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 1: You know, in ancient Rome you see that distinction between

1296
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: the civilized Roman citizens and the barbarian other.

1297
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1298
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: And in that instance, and in a lot of instance,

1299
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 1: it's just used as this ideological tool.

1300
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 5: Just at superiority. Definitely. Yeah.

1301
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,640
Speaker 4: Like, I think we have to be really careful as

1302
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,759
Speaker 4: his story about these assumptions that we make. It's always

1303
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 4: we love to make a lot of assumptions about revolutions too,

1304
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 4: And I would wager that I've attended more revolutions and

1305
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 4: many of my academic colleagues, and I think many of

1306
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 4: those are grounded in the truths that people accept as

1307
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 4: truths without ever testing them. And like, I think this

1308
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 4: sort of civilized barbarian one, it's kind of the same

1309
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 4: like that.

1310
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a classic one. I mean, do you know

1311
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 1: where the word barbarian even comes from.

1312
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 4: Isn't it the language thing? Like, because I didn't speak

1313
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 4: is it Latin? They were just going like bar ba?

1314
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 5: Is that right?

1315
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because of what you know, Rome did this

1316
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: all the time, where they just borrowed, will say, from

1317
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 1: what the Greeks were doing. Yeah, so in Greek, barbaros

1318
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: meant anyone who did not speak Greek. Okay, as the

1319
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: Romans just kind of took that and expanded to talk

1320
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 1: about anybody who wasn't on their whole wave of urban

1321
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:19,200
Speaker 1: planning and you know, codified legal systems, the philosophy, the

1322
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 1: education they are at, all of that stuff.

1323
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1324
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Barbarians didn't have those those refinements, right, Yeah,

1325
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, but of course the relationship between the two

1326
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 1: is not so simple, right because the later on in

1327
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: Roman history, as you'd know, Barbarians quote unquote were incorporated

1328
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 1: slowly into the state and became very useful armies and

1329
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: a reserve full of labor and all these different things

1330
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 1: for what Roman was trying to do with the expantship.

1331
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, and luckily contemporary American right has been very normal

1332
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 4: about that, and it isn't using that for like it's

1333
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 4: sort of eugenic eugenic agenda right now.

1334
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, very very much eugenics VI these days.

1335
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, where my father lives is right on the border

1336
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 4: between England and Scotland and you can visit Hadrian's Wall.

1337
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 4: I rode my bike all along it a couple of

1338
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:10,719
Speaker 4: years ago.

1339
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 5: Oh yeah.

1340
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 4: It's like a fun edge of empire kind of thought experiment,

1341
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 4: like you beyond this line of the barbarians or uncivilized

1342
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 4: people today, it's like unremarkable, like like it's literally it

1343
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 4: keeps some people sheep in their fields at points along.

1344
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1345
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, like some stones kind of piled on top of

1346
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 4: each other and it's kind of an unremarkable novelty. But

1347
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 4: it's funny to think that at one point there was

1348
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:43,520
Speaker 4: this binary world, right and they felt that the outside

1349
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:45,799
Speaker 4: was so dangerous to them that they had to provide

1350
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 4: a physical barrier, something we're still doing.

1351
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: Indeed, and as we're speaking of walls, by the way,

1352
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: this reminds me of another major empire where this sort

1353
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: of dichotomy was a curtain. You know, it wasn't just

1354
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 1: taking place in the Mediterranean bull you had and of

1355
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: course ancient China.

1356
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 5: This whole identity.

1357
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: Constructed around these moral and cultural and political ideals.

1358
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 5: Of course, you had the.

1359
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 1: Whole Confucianism, Taoism, a legalist thought all shape and what

1360
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:18,640
Speaker 1: it meant to be, you know, conducting yourself properly and

1361
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,800
Speaker 1: in a civilized manner. And so those who did not

1362
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 1: ascribe to those ideals would have been people who were

1363
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: labeled barbarians, often the people on the other side of

1364
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: the Great Wall.

1365
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, we are the United States is literally doing the

1366
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 4: exact same thing, right, Like we're building a giant wall

1367
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:41,000
Speaker 4: and labeling other ring the people on the other side

1368
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 4: of it.

1369
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely see the genealogy there. Yeah, but I

1370
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 1: think there's a closer genealogy we could draw upon for

1371
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 1: that particular reference, though, which is how later European empires

1372
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:57,720
Speaker 1: would appropriate the Roman civilized Baberian binary to justify their

1373
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 1: assimilation and extermination and colonialism.

1374
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 4: Definitely one of the things I I like to do,

1375
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 4: even with the you know, the United States and it's

1376
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 4: in formal empire, right, Like I love to show my

1377
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 4: students cartoons, like political cartoons, like there's one of the

1378
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 4: White Man's Burden, which like distill.

1379
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 5: You know, sometimes the picture is worth a thousand words.

1380
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 4: But it distills that whole binary so well in it

1381
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 4: in a way that seems like repugnant to most of

1382
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 4: my students today. I guess, I don't know, maybe maybe

1383
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 4: folks are moving back that way, but like the imagery

1384
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 4: and the distinction between the way or even like Lewis

1385
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 4: and Clark when they're addressing the indigenous people they meet

1386
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:46,839
Speaker 4: and calling them children, right like like this this binary

1387
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 4: distinction is so it's so apparent, and like, I don't know,

1388
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 4: it seems so outlandish, I think to most folks today, maybe,

1389
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 4: but then we do similar things, I guess in uh,

1390
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 4: you know, it just slightly most subtle ways sometimes.

1391
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean when you look at what was

1392
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:09,000
Speaker 1: taking place with the Enlightenment and that whole development of

1393
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: this particular order, it's deeped in these particular values with

1394
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 1: the European culture was the ideal standard, and everything that

1395
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 1: did not measure up to that standard was barbarical. Primative

1396
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 1: is just that has never really gone away, you know,

1397
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: and it continues to be used to justify the domination

1398
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 1: of Western powers, particularly in the way that they've instilled

1399
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: these European norms and practices across the world when it

1400
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,600
Speaker 1: comes to things like relation to the land, when it

1401
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 1: comes to things like the divisions between people, between genders,

1402
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:51,560
Speaker 1: all these things, all these attitudes that are now so widespread,

1403
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 1: originated from in part, this elevation of one above the other.

1404
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 1: And speaking of I mentioned that we'd western there, and

1405
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 1: that's really another way that we've sort of maintained this

1406
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 1: binary in a different course of pain, although it's not

1407
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: quite the same. So there's this sort of lingering framework

1408
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: of the notion of the East and the west. Right

1409
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 1: in the ancient times, it was China versus Rome. These

1410
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:26,560
Speaker 1: days it's probably China versus America.

1411
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 5: China really is that old?

1412
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and okay, this is probably a very probably

1413
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:36,680
Speaker 1: very gen z reference for me to make. But I

1414
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,759
Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen these edits circulated on social

1415
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:47,799
Speaker 1: media of the Chinese president Chichin Ping going like buzzer Beijing,

1416
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 1: and then there's like a whole bunch of like skyscrapers

1417
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: and like like hardcore like electronic music edited to show

1418
01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 1: like all these advanced ones, and people in the comments

1419
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: are saying things like be China do nothing win.

1420
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:07,040
Speaker 5: I have not seen those.

1421
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely dating me a little bit in

1422
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 1: terms of my social media diet. But yeah, just seeing

1423
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: the dynamic between China, or between the East and the West,

1424
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 1: the Orient and the Occident, to use an older term,

1425
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:27,840
Speaker 1: it's just another way that we've created this sort of

1426
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 1: boundary between people that either on one side or the other,

1427
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 1: there's a necessary tension between the two.

1428
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:35,559
Speaker 5: You know.

1429
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: This concept of the Orient and Orientalism is something that

1430
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 1: would side identified famously as something that was constructed by

1431
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 1: the West as an exotic, irrational, decadent, and dangerous place.

1432
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 1: And so that whole dualistic narrative was then put into

1433
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 1: the imperial project to legitimizet domination and to position the

1434
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 1: East as a passive subject without a voice of their

1435
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 1: own and constant need of Western intervention and guidance. So

1436
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 1: this West becomes this sort of stage for modernity and

1437
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: science and region and progress, this whole idea of the

1438
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 1: protagonist of history and the orients the East. They're the primitive,

1439
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: I guess, side of that binary. Although unlike the civilized

1440
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 1: primitive binary or civilized barbarian binnary of old I think

1441
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 1: while there could have been racial components to it in

1442
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:34,560
Speaker 1: the past, this one is more explicitly racial and geographic

1443
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: in its division, because I mean, in ancient Rome, anybody

1444
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 1: could essentially become a Roman citizen. You know, it wasn't

1445
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 1: necessarily racially, you know, pure area and sense that a

1446
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: lot of New Nazis and stuff today like to look

1447
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:52,800
Speaker 1: back at that period as you had a quieter diversity

1448
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: of phenotypes in the Roman Empire. But you know, when

1449
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 1: you come to this orient and occident dichotomy, it's it's

1450
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 1: very much racialized. You know, a lot of times when

1451
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 1: people talk about the Western Wold, it really tends to

1452
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: be I guess a more politically correct way of seeing

1453
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:12,799
Speaker 1: the White Wold. Yes, at least in my observation.

1454
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely that's often the subtext.

1455
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:19,000
Speaker 1: Because I mean that's something I've always struggled with, pin

1456
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 1: and down right, because why isn't Brazil considered part of

1457
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 1: the West? You know, why isn't Mexico considered part of

1458
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:25,439
Speaker 1: the West?

1459
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 5: Right?

1460
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 4: What will we west of? Like? Like what it's not

1461
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 4: even it's not the Western hemisphere like as you say.

1462
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Western Fami to say is more straightforward,

1463
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 1: but is it? Because there are too many colored people

1464
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: in Mexico and in Brazil.

1465
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 4: It seems to be, right, like, it's not even countries

1466
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:49,240
Speaker 4: strongly from Western Europe was strongly impacted by settler colonialism

1467
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 4: from Western Europe. Because the entirety of Latin America is impact.

1468
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 1: And they should be included, but they're not.

1469
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:56,000
Speaker 5: That they're not.

1470
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and it yeah, it's I've always struggled with

1471
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:03,680
Speaker 4: that one. Other than the neoliberal, capitalist white countries. It's

1472
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 4: it's it's what people don't want to say.

1473
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 1: And Japan sometimes yeah yeah, Japan, yeah yeah, Amber of

1474
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:13,720
Speaker 1: the Club.

1475
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, or like sometimes also not Spain. This is a

1476
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:19,559
Speaker 4: particular like bug Bury, I guess of Spanish history.

1477
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: Really, I don't think I've seen enough one.

1478
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, for years, like literally you would be excluded from

1479
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 4: European history, like like Africa starts at the Pyrenees.

1480
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 5: It's a sort of phrase that needs to be used. Hilarious.

1481
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I guess it compounded because Spain was so

1482
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 4: isolated under Franco, right, but like, yeah, that this they

1483
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 4: called it the black legend that like Spain does not

1484
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 4: belong to Europe and and it's not again it's racialized, right,

1485
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 4: it's because Spain had this exchange with the Muslim world right,

1486
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 4: and like that that culture deeply impacted Spanish culture. And

1487
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:58,559
Speaker 4: even after the Conquista, it's like it's like you know,

1488
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:01,200
Speaker 4: the French historian, so we're just like, nah, you guys

1489
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 4: are tainted, like you, you don't get to come back.

1490
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,600
Speaker 1: It's kind of a similar situation with the territory. So

1491
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 1: the former Artoman Empire as well, technically part of Europe

1492
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: and yet you know, maligned in some way.

1493
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a little bit less than Still, it's like

1494
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 4: you'll have too much, too much Turkish to watch Muslim influence.

1495
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 5: You all got a.

1496
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, you need like a thousand years to decompress before

1497
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 4: we let you back in.

1498
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1499
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 1: I mean honestly, if the Pope wasn't based in Italy,

1500
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure Italy would have a similar dynamic. I mean,

1501
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 1: Italy is a recent construction, right in terms of as

1502
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: a country. Ye, but only look at the two Sicilies

1503
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:45,760
Speaker 1: for example, that was under North African rule for a

1504
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 1: significant period of its history. But let me not get

1505
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 1: too far off track. One way, we're one more tangent,

1506
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 1: and that is I'm far from being a Dungist by

1507
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,839
Speaker 1: any means, or a Maurist or anything of that nature.

1508
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 1: But there is something to be said for the way

1509
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 1: that the East of the Orient has been sidelined, marginalized,

1510
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 1: treat it us lesser than for so long, and now

1511
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 1: they're at a point where their geopolitical sway has to

1512
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 1: be respected.

1513
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not.

1514
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: Rooting for them by any means. I'm not one of

1515
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 1: those people is like, yeah, multipolar world. I would rather

1516
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: we have no poles, you know, as an anarchist.

1517
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I do know what you mean.

1518
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:46,920
Speaker 1: But it's like it's a bit of shodding for it,

1519
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 1: I guess.

1520
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, you know, ironic in a

1521
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:54,720
Speaker 4: but yeah, not necessarily in a good way. Like I've

1522
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:59,040
Speaker 4: just seen Ji Jimping meeting with Minan Plang, the dictator

1523
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 4: of Miamma today, and I'm like, I'm not excited for

1524
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:03,440
Speaker 4: that pole of the world.

1525
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:06,120
Speaker 5: Not at all, not at all. Yeah.

1526
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: I feel the same way about the way that the

1527
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:15,759
Speaker 1: Sahel Federation has kind of kicked out France. I'm like, yeah,

1528
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:21,200
Speaker 1: stickt to France. But also military huinteras.

1529
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, yeah, like the rebranded Wagner Core now.

1530
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and the the collaboration close collaborations Russia. But

1531
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of this thing is really a

1532
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 1: lot of these relationships, these geopistical relationships are so opportunistic.

1533
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: It's all opportunistsm Yeah. End of the day, they don't

1534
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 1: really they're not really necessarily guided by principles.

1535
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, like the difference I guess between like, for instance,

1536
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 4: I you know, I've been thinking a lot about anarchist

1537
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 4: at war, right, and people go and fight in other

1538
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 4: people's to depend other people, right, like like the the

1539
01:21:52,720 --> 01:21:54,760
Speaker 4: people who went to Rajava to fight, people who went

1540
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 4: to Mima to fight. Like there's a difference between doing

1541
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 4: something out of a sense of solidarity and doing something

1542
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 4: get root opportunitiesm And like that always shows itself in

1543
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 4: the end.

1544
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1545
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 1: I mean the Wagon Group's involvement in Africa is the

1546
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 1: most blatant capitalists dravn opportunism.

1547
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. These people are not there for the anti colonials

1548
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 4: that are like.

1549
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 5: Standing with the oppressed peoples of the world. Yeah.

1550
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, like watching the Battle of Algaeis and setting off

1551
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:25,520
Speaker 4: to immediately liberate the people of Africa.

1552
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: Literal mercenaries right yeah. Yeah, But getting back onto the

1553
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,040
Speaker 1: main topic, talking about all these ways we divvy up

1554
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:39,640
Speaker 1: the world out of the linguistic and cultural and geographical

1555
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 1: differences that we observe around us came this concept of nations, right.

1556
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 1: Nation as an idea also came out of the European

1557
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 1: imagine nation. It's commonly defined and it's usable by today.

1558
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 1: But it's commonly defined as a large community of people

1559
01:22:56,080 --> 01:23:00,040
Speaker 1: who share common identity, often through language, culture, history, and

1560
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:04,440
Speaker 1: sometimes ethnicity. Then who usually inhabit a specific geographic territory

1561
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 1: with its own political organization. The communations without states as

1562
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 1: simply a cultural community for people feel a collective belong

1563
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:15,640
Speaker 1: and then share that snee. But nations are as we know,

1564
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 1: mostly tied up with states today, hence nation being used

1565
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 1: as a synonym for country.

1566
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is one of my bug bears. I guess

1567
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 4: is an academic like I tried to develop this concept

1568
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 4: of Catalan nationalism that like at the time was inherently

1569
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 4: anti fascist, I think or was trying.

1570
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:33,760
Speaker 5: To be like that.

1571
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 4: It ain't now like this. It's a very Catalan right now.

1572
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:41,599
Speaker 4: And yeah, I do still find it hard when people

1573
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 4: say nation is the of state, especially Americans, Like, it's

1574
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,560
Speaker 4: very hard, right because state is like a subset of

1575
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 4: the state here, like the sort of motive division of

1576
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:53,519
Speaker 4: the federal state. So it can be hard to explain

1577
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 4: those differences.

1578
01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, this sort of way that the

1579
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:02,680
Speaker 1: Catalan nationalism has shifted it really I think gets to

1580
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:07,919
Speaker 1: the whole weakness of the nation idea. So Benick Anderson

1581
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 1: famously called nations imagined communities because the community exists as

1582
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:18,520
Speaker 1: a collective fantasy. You know, they imagine a deep comradeship

1583
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,960
Speaker 1: with people who they've never met, and this fantasy has

1584
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:25,639
Speaker 1: boundaries not just about who is included, but also famously

1585
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 1: who is excluded. And this fantasy is not necessarily something

1586
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 1: that is automatic or natural as we tend to see

1587
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,120
Speaker 1: it today, But it's really the rise of things like

1588
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 1: print capitalism, with the mass production of books and newspapers,

1589
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 1: and that's what really shaped the standardization and formalization of

1590
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:50,040
Speaker 1: these imagined communities through the creational like common cultural reference

1591
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: and a shared sense of history. And then of course

1592
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: you had the nation idea further being developed by liberal

1593
01:24:57,040 --> 01:25:00,559
Speaker 1: revolutions and through the shared experience of clu your rule.

1594
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 1: You know, we're subject populations with mobilized nationalism to claim

1595
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:05,760
Speaker 1: self determination.

1596
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely like it. I'm sure.

1597
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:11,120
Speaker 4: The only I'm trying to remember I borrowed this from

1598
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:14,160
Speaker 4: someone but the idea of like identity entrepreneurs is one

1599
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 4: I like, like it's when religion loses its claim on

1600
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:21,240
Speaker 4: universal truth, specifically in Europe.

1601
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 5: That's like a market for identity that is open.

1602
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:29,719
Speaker 4: And the creation of nations is like, to my mind,

1603
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:34,479
Speaker 4: like a bourgeois project, right Like, it's an entrepreneurial endeavor

1604
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 4: that they seek to create something, a benefit from it

1605
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,320
Speaker 4: and like it yet to a agree that's turned against them,

1606
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 4: it's still an entrepreneurial endeavor, right Like. Still, you could

1607
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:48,200
Speaker 4: be creating a nation which wants to kick France out

1608
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:51,679
Speaker 4: of Morocco, right that that nation may not have space

1609
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:54,760
Speaker 4: for everyone who inhabits that territory of Morocco. Like it's

1610
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:57,280
Speaker 4: still it's a sort of for some people.

1611
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:03,639
Speaker 1: Construct absolutely absolutely, I think the elite intellectual current of

1612
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 1: nationalist movements can go under stated. You know, oftentimes what

1613
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 1: stirs up the masses toward that specific direction, because I mean,

1614
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:17,200
Speaker 1: the masses will revolt against their conditions, But what sort

1615
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:20,560
Speaker 1: of directs it in that national independence direction? And this

1616
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: concept of nation is tends to be that sort of

1617
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:25,560
Speaker 1: elite intellectual current. I often look at the history of

1618
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:28,519
Speaker 1: and Tobago as a reference point see is that's where

1619
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 1: I come from.

1620
01:26:29,920 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 5: The whole process of.

1621
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 1: Nation building is always ongoing, and we are in a

1622
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 1: position where there's an effort, there's very strong efforts to

1623
01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:43,479
Speaker 1: both push for a nation building but also recognize our

1624
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:46,720
Speaker 1: divergent pasts, you know, because we have this sort of

1625
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:52,760
Speaker 1: almost equal in population Indo Trinardian and Afrotrianardian populations, and

1626
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:54,760
Speaker 1: then a mixed population as well, and then you have

1627
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 1: some Chinese and Syria and Lebanese and Venezuela and Filipino

1628
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:03,879
Speaker 1: and all these different groups come into Trinidad, and because

1629
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 1: of that colonial past, their tensions is between those groups

1630
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 1: and things are still play out to this day. But

1631
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:12,479
Speaker 1: while those tensions are played ound, there's also an effort

1632
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:17,719
Speaker 1: to construct a unity through an allegiance to the nation

1633
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:21,080
Speaker 1: of trinand Tobago to create a sense of national identity.

1634
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:23,799
Speaker 1: And as a very young country, it's still quite difficult

1635
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:28,920
Speaker 1: to do. I can imagine, especially in the United States,

1636
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 1: it might have been a similar situation where you have

1637
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:35,639
Speaker 1: all these different European populations and different populations from around

1638
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:39,120
Speaker 1: the world who are in the US, and there hasn't

1639
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:42,479
Speaker 1: quite yet been a fully built up American identity yet,

1640
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 1: and so a lot of those tensions are still kind

1641
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: of playing out, and so it takes a couple of

1642
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:49,640
Speaker 1: generations for there to be a sense of American identity

1643
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:50,880
Speaker 1: that arises.

1644
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:50,880
Speaker 5: Out of that.

1645
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, Trinidad being one a younger colony and two

1646
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 1: only recently becoming independent in nineteen sixty two, it hasn't

1647
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 1: had enough time yet at I suppose develop that patriotism

1648
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:07,880
Speaker 1: that America is so known for. And so you still

1649
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,960
Speaker 1: see a lot of people continue to have allegiances to

1650
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:16,240
Speaker 1: the ancestry, to their heritage, even before they have any

1651
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:20,360
Speaker 1: sort of sense of connection to the country. Concept of truead.

1652
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:22,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, the American would be interesting because the people who

1653
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,960
Speaker 4: did the American Revolution might often call themselves English, right like,

1654
01:28:27,479 --> 01:28:32,960
Speaker 4: And it's this kind of post hawk nationalism that has applied,

1655
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:36,519
Speaker 4: right like, they did begin constructing a nation, but after

1656
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:40,479
Speaker 4: they after they gained the apparatus of the state, right like.

1657
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 4: And sometimes they'll talk about their freedoms in terms of

1658
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:46,400
Speaker 4: English freedoms, which they themselves are not granted, right that

1659
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:48,680
Speaker 4: they don't have the same freedoms as English people in

1660
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 4: England when they are a British colony. This concept of freedom,

1661
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,560
Speaker 4: they will elucidate like it, and like so much of

1662
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 4: it is based on like English common law. Right, they

1663
01:28:57,040 --> 01:29:02,200
Speaker 4: didn't necessarily see themselves as distinct. That comes later. And

1664
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 4: like the US, one is interesting because they have to

1665
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:07,840
Speaker 4: develop this kind of civic nationalism. M I guess France

1666
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 4: has said two of course, but like France is probably

1667
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:11,240
Speaker 4: the og there.

1668
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:13,080
Speaker 5: But like this.

1669
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:16,599
Speaker 4: Idea, like you've subscribed to these ideals, therefore you're an

1670
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:22,439
Speaker 4: American because they're like this this nation constructed by people

1671
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:23,839
Speaker 4: from all over Europe.

1672
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 5: For the most part.

1673
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:28,720
Speaker 4: The phrasing is universal, but the implementation is not. Right,

1674
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:30,679
Speaker 4: it's also a country where people own other people.

1675
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:34,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, like I was saying earlier,

1676
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 1: it does help in our struggle for autonomy and independence

1677
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:42,240
Speaker 1: from clune On rule to have this construct other nation, right,

1678
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:47,120
Speaker 1: but it also obscures a lot of the real material

1679
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 1: divisions and society, you know, between the wing class and

1680
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:53,240
Speaker 1: the elites. And so you have this national identity that

1681
01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 1: is constructed by intellectual and you know, economic elites, and

1682
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,360
Speaker 1: it's overlaid on a population that doesn't really have us

1683
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:06,880
Speaker 1: see in that construction. And so these nationalist projects will

1684
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:11,200
Speaker 1: try to downplay or suppress differences in conflicts. And but

1685
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 1: as part of why nationalism so often lends itself to fascism,

1686
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 1: because fascism is an outgrowth of this idea of nation

1687
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 1: where they promote this vision of national unity and stifle

1688
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 1: class conflict and create a collusion of classes that pushes

1689
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:35,640
Speaker 1: aside of people who don't fit within their concept of

1690
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:36,040
Speaker 1: the nation.

1691
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:37,040
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1692
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I often think, like when I'm talking to my

1693
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 4: undergrads about nation, Like the most distinct way I could

1694
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:46,840
Speaker 4: say is like the salient we through both space and time, right, Like,

1695
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:50,640
Speaker 4: it's the people you identify with, it's the us, and

1696
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:55,599
Speaker 4: fascism weaponizes us against the rest of humanity or against

1697
01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:59,400
Speaker 4: us mostly like against escapegoat group who become them. Right,

1698
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:02,920
Speaker 4: and then like the nation is for us, the state

1699
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 4: is for us, it's not for them, Thus they must

1700
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 4: be exterminated.

1701
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 1: Exactly.

1702
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,200
Speaker 5: It's an obvious outgrowth of nationalism.

1703
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:15,920
Speaker 1: Hence xenophobia, hence anti semitism, anti blackness, anti indigenuity, all

1704
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:19,679
Speaker 1: these prejudices. I mean, And that's the thing about nationalism.

1705
01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:23,719
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily consistent because you'll say, all people from

1706
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 1: this land, you know, we should desay to be United

1707
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:28,639
Speaker 1: except for those people who are also from this land.

1708
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,640
Speaker 1: They don't get to count, you know, they are perpetual outsiders.

1709
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 1: They don't share the true culture. They aren't part of

1710
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:38,679
Speaker 1: our destiny. So even if they're legally citizens or legally

1711
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:41,720
Speaker 1: a long term residents, or they haven't residents there for

1712
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:44,320
Speaker 1: a long time the entire lives for generations or if

1713
01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:47,960
Speaker 1: the case may be, they don't count. They're outside forever.

1714
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:52,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they can never assent to like a sort

1715
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 4: of higher status of being one of us. British people

1716
01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 4: like to mobilize this one a lot, right, Like you

1717
01:31:58,240 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 4: can be British, but.

1718
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:00,680
Speaker 1: You can never be English.

1719
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:06,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I forget who coined that coined the phrase cricket nationalism,

1720
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:10,120
Speaker 4: but it's just particularly kind of ridiculous, Like, oh, if

1721
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:12,640
Speaker 4: you know, if there's a Test match between Britain and

1722
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:16,440
Speaker 4: Pakistan and Britain Trinidad Tobago, who do you support? Like

1723
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 4: is that, like are you really going to make that

1724
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:21,479
Speaker 4: the core of your national identity? Like the cene qua

1725
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 4: non of being British is like which flag you take

1726
01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 4: to the cricket match? Like it's particularly ridiculous and if

1727
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:34,320
Speaker 4: it doesn't reflect exclusion, right, people aren't taking their flag

1728
01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:37,040
Speaker 4: to the cricket match because like that's the core of

1729
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 4: the entity. They're just like, yeah, well kind of I

1730
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 4: get treated differently because of my ethnic boundary, like makeup

1731
01:32:44,080 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 4: right ethnic presentation. So I guess you guys don't like me,

1732
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 4: so like they'll be funny when we kick your ass cricket,

1733
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:54,559
Speaker 4: like it's the cause of arrow points in the wrong direction.

1734
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: I guess I can imagine I will not be bringing

1735
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:00,439
Speaker 1: any flags to any cricket match because because I don't

1736
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:03,920
Speaker 1: attend cricket matches, I'm not not too big of a

1737
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 1: fan of cricket.

1738
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:06,599
Speaker 5: It can't be doing it.

1739
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 1: I stick to my football, and I say football in

1740
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 1: the international sense.

1741
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:14,160
Speaker 4: Good, yeah, yeah, I can't stand around long enough to

1742
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 4: play cricket, to be honest.

1743
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:19,559
Speaker 1: As we're talking about national liberation, these struggles often took

1744
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,639
Speaker 1: place in the context of the Cold War, right, which

1745
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 1: is where we get this other sense of this other

1746
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,640
Speaker 1: framework for divving up the world now. Growing up, I

1747
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:30,880
Speaker 1: was always told that, you know, trant Tobago is a

1748
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 1: third world country. I had a social studies textbook, and

1749
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:37,240
Speaker 1: I taught first world, second world, third world, But I

1750
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:39,880
Speaker 1: didn't teach first world second World, third world in the

1751
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:42,479
Speaker 1: context of the Cold War, because I grew up in

1752
01:33:42,479 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 1: a post Cold War world and these terms came from

1753
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 1: the Cool War but persisted after the Cold War. So

1754
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:52,519
Speaker 1: what happened I was taught we have third world because

1755
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 1: we are still developing. We're not at that intermediate stage

1756
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:58,240
Speaker 1: development where we could see the second world, and we're

1757
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: not at that first world level of developed and like America, right.

1758
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 9: And.

1759
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,479
Speaker 1: That's that's a smaller side for me. But I've always

1760
01:34:07,479 --> 01:34:11,640
Speaker 1: found it mildly irritated when I see people use this

1761
01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:15,439
Speaker 1: famous social media catchphrase or America is a third World

1762
01:34:15,439 --> 01:34:16,679
Speaker 1: country in a Gucci belt.

1763
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:21,760
Speaker 5: I haven't seen now on the yet. That's annoying.

1764
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,759
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen similar sentiments, this idea all America's

1765
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 1: third world, American.

1766
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 5: Stud world, Yeah, I have.

1767
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:31,559
Speaker 1: Like, it's just annoying to me yet, So one, it

1768
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:34,799
Speaker 1: completely divorces the concert of the third world from its actual

1769
01:34:34,840 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 1: origins and to it. Also, I think reflects that kind

1770
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 1: of a blindness to what's happened in the rest of

1771
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:43,880
Speaker 1: the world, in the countries that are actually considered third

1772
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,759
Speaker 1: world and the differences between them, you know, for everything

1773
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: that we can express frustrations about in the US anybody

1774
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:53,600
Speaker 1: in the third world, I think, and I've when I

1775
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 1: when I've visited the US, I've seen it with my

1776
01:34:55,400 --> 01:35:00,640
Speaker 1: own eyes. You know, there's still things there that Americans

1777
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:06,200
Speaker 1: might take for granted that are just not that would

1778
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:09,720
Speaker 1: never be taken for granted in another context. And I see,

1779
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:12,639
Speaker 1: of course the divisioncy in America's version of the First

1780
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 1: World versus you know, some of the European Social Democracy's

1781
01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:18,440
Speaker 1: version of the First World. So I get that frustration,

1782
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, the lack of free health care and that

1783
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:25,560
Speaker 1: kind of thing, investment in infrastructure and all that. But

1784
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:28,000
Speaker 1: let me just get into the background behind the tomb.

1785
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:40,680
Speaker 1: Right as we step into the Cool War, you have

1786
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:43,599
Speaker 1: this concept of the three world model that came after

1787
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: World War Two. The pre war status cool was over

1788
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:50,120
Speaker 1: and you had new conflicts on the horizon. And to

1789
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 1: the film, first World originally described the capitalist block led

1790
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:59,719
Speaker 1: by the United States and Western Europe, were capitalist markets, liberals,

1791
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 1: and rock see an economic progress was celebrated. And then

1792
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:05,800
Speaker 1: you had the Second World block, which referred to the

1793
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 1: communist bloc led by the Soviet Union, where what I

1794
01:36:09,439 --> 01:36:14,560
Speaker 1: would consider state capitalism and centrally planned economies shape their societies.

1795
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 1: So in the First World yet countries like the US, Australia,

1796
01:36:18,720 --> 01:36:22,679
Speaker 1: Africa today might be shocking. You know, Iran was even

1797
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:26,120
Speaker 1: considered part of the First World block during the Cool War.

1798
01:36:26,600 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 1: That might be shocking now because when we think of

1799
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:30,559
Speaker 1: some of these countries like, oh, those are third World countries.

1800
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:33,679
Speaker 1: Those are undeveloped countries. They aren't at the developed level

1801
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:37,639
Speaker 1: of the West yet. But in the context in which

1802
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:41,360
Speaker 1: has three World model originated, these were countries that explicitly

1803
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:45,559
Speaker 1: aligned themselves with the policies of the United States and

1804
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:51,160
Speaker 1: its allies as capitalist nations against the Soviet Bloc. And

1805
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:54,400
Speaker 1: the Soviet Bloc you had, of course countries like China

1806
01:36:55,160 --> 01:37:02,280
Speaker 1: and Vietnam, Laos, Ethiopia, Yeah, and Huba, all these different

1807
01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:07,559
Speaker 1: countries align themselves explicitly with the Soviet Union. Then the

1808
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 1: third World and where the third will concept came in

1809
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 1: was with all the countries that stood against picking aside. Yeah,

1810
01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:17,920
Speaker 1: a lot of these were former colonies and nations that

1811
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:21,280
Speaker 1: chose not to side completely with either. And so this

1812
01:37:21,320 --> 01:37:24,160
Speaker 1: whole concept, this whole idea of the non aligned movement,

1813
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:28,800
Speaker 1: it really kicked off thanks to the joining of the

1814
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:33,519
Speaker 1: Indian Prime Minister, the Canayan president, the Indonesian president, and

1815
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:38,280
Speaker 1: the president of the United Arab Republic, alongside Yugoslavia and

1816
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,959
Speaker 1: so all these countries who all had very different economic

1817
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: arrange ones Yugoslavia famously was kind of doing its own

1818
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 1: thing compared to a lot of the other countries associated

1819
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:52,760
Speaker 1: with socialism. India and Ghana they were also kind of

1820
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:56,280
Speaker 1: doing their own thing, kind of a mix trance. Tobago's

1821
01:37:56,320 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 1: also considered part of the non aligned movement, and so

1822
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:05,240
Speaker 1: these classifications at the time, these were geopolitical and all

1823
01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 1: political ideology is not necessarily economic development. So technically speaking,

1824
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:13,479
Speaker 1: the terms shouldn't even be relevant us today. I mean,

1825
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:17,000
Speaker 1: the Cold War of the twentieth century is over. But

1826
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,720
Speaker 1: over time the narrative began to twist. You know, so

1827
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 1: because you didn't pick a side, you didn't pick the

1828
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 1: red team or the blue team, you didn't pick the

1829
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 1: First World of the Second World, this narrative developed where

1830
01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:32,960
Speaker 1: or you didn't pick a side, you're politically independent, so

1831
01:38:33,040 --> 01:38:36,799
Speaker 1: you're poor, you're chaotic, your failed state, all these different things.

1832
01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:40,200
Speaker 1: And of course there were incidents in part influenced of

1833
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:43,479
Speaker 1: course by state actors in the US and state actors

1834
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:47,799
Speaker 1: in the Soviet client block would have contributed to this outcome,

1835
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 1: But over time you get this sense of or the

1836
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:55,559
Speaker 1: third World is failure. All these states were trying different

1837
01:38:55,560 --> 01:39:00,280
Speaker 1: path of development, different approaches to governance from either of

1838
01:39:00,320 --> 01:39:04,120
Speaker 1: the two camps, mixed hybrid approaches, but in the end

1839
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:06,519
Speaker 1: that's just this just got them stuck with the label

1840
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:10,599
Speaker 1: of underdevelopment and at having them being seen as lesser.

1841
01:39:11,160 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 1: Now today people don't use food world as much as

1842
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 1: they use developing, at least in you know, the more

1843
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 1: above board discourse. But that division also has its own implications,

1844
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 1: right the developed countries versus the developing countries. It's kind

1845
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:31,800
Speaker 1: of a softer sorts of version of the same thing.

1846
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of gentle, Yeah, the same shit.

1847
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:38,640
Speaker 1: What those terms do implicitly, it's like, you know what,

1848
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:42,439
Speaker 1: you're fish in water, so you can't recognize water. It's

1849
01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:47,320
Speaker 1: hard to recognize these things, these ideological impulses when we're

1850
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:50,760
Speaker 1: submerged in them. If you take a step back, you realize, oh,

1851
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:54,560
Speaker 1: these terms developed and developing, they have very heavy implications.

1852
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,519
Speaker 1: And the implication is that there's a single linear path

1853
01:39:57,560 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 1: to progress modeled after Western cap that all societies are

1854
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:08,400
Speaker 1: progressing towards through industrialization, through consumerism, through the ALMIGHTGP growth,

1855
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:13,160
Speaker 1: and so development to your underdevelopment becomes a tool of intervention.

1856
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 1: It becomes a way to mask imperial interests with the

1857
01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:19,880
Speaker 1: sort of the nair of oh, we're just kind of

1858
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:20,719
Speaker 1: helping you out.

1859
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:21,360
Speaker 5: You know.

1860
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:25,360
Speaker 1: It's like we move from your savage you're primitive, so

1861
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:29,200
Speaker 1: you're just not developed yet, but theory will help you out.

1862
01:40:29,800 --> 01:40:32,440
Speaker 1: And that's how you get the whole sort of IMF

1863
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:36,240
Speaker 1: and World Bank, introductions of models of debts and policy

1864
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:39,960
Speaker 1: conditions and metrics and all these different things to sort

1865
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:44,519
Speaker 1: of shape these countries into client states, states that can

1866
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:49,559
Speaker 1: be used to further Western development. The Cold War is

1867
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 1: technically over now, as I said, so I suppose we've

1868
01:40:53,920 --> 01:40:58,040
Speaker 1: reached the end of history, as the famous saying goes,

1869
01:40:58,080 --> 01:41:02,200
Speaker 1: but not exactly. In the only nineteen nineties, Samuel Huntington

1870
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:05,360
Speaker 1: came up with a thesis to explain the conflicts that

1871
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 1: would define the post Cold War world and as we

1872
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:11,599
Speaker 1: entered into the twenty first century, and so he argued

1873
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:13,839
Speaker 1: that the future of global conflict would not be defined

1874
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:18,719
Speaker 1: by competing ideologies or economic systems, but by cultural fault lines.

1875
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:21,960
Speaker 1: In his nineteen ninety three article in Foreign Affairs, which

1876
01:41:22,040 --> 01:41:24,759
Speaker 1: Lates expanded into his nineteen ninety six book The Clash

1877
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:28,080
Speaker 1: of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, Huntington

1878
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:30,200
Speaker 1: predicted that the primary source of conflict in a new

1879
01:41:30,240 --> 01:41:34,760
Speaker 1: era would be between distinct civilizations. His model would have

1880
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,600
Speaker 1: pointed to clashes between the West and other groups Islamic nations,

1881
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:42,040
Speaker 1: the Confucian East, and of course set up this sense

1882
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:45,040
Speaker 1: that the West is this pinnacle of rationality and modernity

1883
01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:49,759
Speaker 1: and all these others in competition with the fantastic, amazing West.

1884
01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:51,800
Speaker 1: And I always like to call out some of these

1885
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 1: strange ways that he has divided the world.

1886
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:56,400
Speaker 5: Right, So sub Saharan.

1887
01:41:56,080 --> 01:42:01,160
Speaker 1: Africa is all grouped up into the African camp, all

1888
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:06,000
Speaker 1: of North Africa, the Middle East, into West Asia, all

1889
01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:09,479
Speaker 1: of that is considered part of the Islamic civilization. Forget

1890
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:11,840
Speaker 1: all the differences between any of them. By the way,

1891
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 1: Indonesia it's also part of the Islamic block. You have

1892
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:22,000
Speaker 1: the Sinic or the Confucian block that includes China, both Koreas, Taiwan,

1893
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 1: and Vietnam, except for the parts of China that are

1894
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:30,519
Speaker 1: under the Buddhist camp, such as Tibet, So Tibetan is

1895
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:33,120
Speaker 1: kind of carved up on its own as its own camp.

1896
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:35,280
Speaker 1: Mongolia is also under the Buddhist camp.

1897
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 5: Thailand and all.

1898
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:41,760
Speaker 1: These others in Southeast Asia considered part of the Buddhist camp. Yeah,

1899
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:43,880
Speaker 1: and then you have the Latin American block, which is

1900
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:46,559
Speaker 1: everybody part of Latin America and even people who are

1901
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 1: not technically Latin America and are kind of swept in there.

1902
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:52,800
Speaker 1: And I'm going to be a by the base of

1903
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:55,639
Speaker 1: the map that I saw on the Wikipedia article on

1904
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:56,240
Speaker 1: the subject.

1905
01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:59,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I found that map. Now it's some.

1906
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:03,400
Speaker 1: Very busy are divisions, and we used to cut up

1907
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:06,920
Speaker 1: this will we have the Western rule versus the Orthodox world,

1908
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 1: which includes Kazakhstan and Greece and Ukraine and Russia all

1909
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:15,599
Speaker 1: under that civilizational banner.

1910
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1911
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:21,160
Speaker 1: The Philippines is somehow part Islamic, part Western, and part Sinic.

1912
01:43:22,120 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 1: It's a very unusual blend.

1913
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1914
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 4: And then he's just got like Japan, it's just hanging

1915
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:28,439
Speaker 4: out there by itself.

1916
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:32,479
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention especial Japan is kind

1917
01:43:32,479 --> 01:43:33,240
Speaker 1: of it's the one thing.

1918
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:35,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it literally says Japanese.

1919
01:43:35,280 --> 01:43:38,560
Speaker 4: I've forgotten about that, and then he goes on to

1920
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:42,280
Speaker 4: freak out about like the like Latin world as he

1921
01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 4: sees it, like fucking dividing the United States right like

1922
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:49,880
Speaker 4: in his his is it called like who we are

1923
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:52,280
Speaker 4: or where we are or something his book about migration

1924
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:55,640
Speaker 4: in the United States m it was after Clash of

1925
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:58,800
Speaker 4: civilizations he wrote this book about like how the like

1926
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:01,479
Speaker 4: I think I don't know quite remember how he termed it,

1927
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:04,040
Speaker 4: like this, he us Latino or Hispanic or something else,

1928
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:08,160
Speaker 4: but like that that that population increasing in the United

1929
01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:12,200
Speaker 4: States will like divide the United States into two fundamentally

1930
01:44:12,200 --> 01:44:13,800
Speaker 4: opposed civilizations.

1931
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he has some interesting compulsion. Yeah, And unfortunately

1932
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:25,920
Speaker 1: his thesis found its voice following the events of nine

1933
01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:29,640
Speaker 1: to eleven partitions and media. These people were taking his

1934
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:34,040
Speaker 1: ideas to kind of justify the one and terror that

1935
01:44:34,080 --> 01:44:37,600
Speaker 1: would unfold. It also creates sort of cultural device that

1936
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:40,639
Speaker 1: settle into place at home will not create but shape

1937
01:44:41,120 --> 01:44:44,679
Speaker 1: those cultural divides as you create the sense of oh,

1938
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:47,440
Speaker 1: if there's if we're experience in a clash of civilizations

1939
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:51,120
Speaker 1: right now, then this flood couldn't quote of people from

1940
01:44:51,160 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 1: another civilization is a threat to the vision. It's something

1941
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:59,000
Speaker 1: that needs to be targeted and fought against. Yeah, and so,

1942
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:03,120
Speaker 1: in a sense, his classicalizations is kind of a repackaging

1943
01:45:03,240 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 1: of a lot of the binaries and divisions we've spoken

1944
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:08,760
Speaker 1: of what before. You have elements of nationalism, you have

1945
01:45:08,800 --> 01:45:12,280
Speaker 1: elements of civilized versus barbarian, you have elements of East

1946
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:16,800
Speaker 1: and West, the Cold War dichotomies. All of that kind

1947
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:21,760
Speaker 1: of comes together in this neat package. Finally, we enter

1948
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:24,240
Speaker 1: the twenty first century, and they are two very popular

1949
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 1: ways that we now categorize the world. People tend to

1950
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:31,559
Speaker 1: use the phrases global North and Global South as a

1951
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:35,800
Speaker 1: softer or more politically correct alternative to develop developing or

1952
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 1: first and third world. It's considered less loaded, more neutral sounding,

1953
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:44,839
Speaker 1: and it's originally popularized via UN frameworks and the brand line,

1954
01:45:45,320 --> 01:45:48,479
Speaker 1: which is done in nineteen eighty, which drew a literal

1955
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 1: line across the globe, separating the wealthier North from the

1956
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:55,280
Speaker 1: poorer self. To be clear, though, despite the geographical language,

1957
01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: it's not literally about hemispheres. Australia is considered part of

1958
01:45:59,479 --> 01:46:02,600
Speaker 1: the Global Nor and Mongolia is considered part of the

1959
01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 1: global South, but generally speaking, the global salt refus the

1960
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:09,519
Speaker 1: post colonial regions and the global North refoos the wealthy,

1961
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 1: industrialized countries of the world. To me, again, it's not

1962
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:16,520
Speaker 1: really a flawless framework. It has all the same binaries

1963
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:22,839
Speaker 1: and smoothing over of complexities of internal class divides between

1964
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 1: For example, ritually it's in the global South and poor

1965
01:46:25,439 --> 01:46:28,960
Speaker 1: communities in the North. It gives impression that entire countries

1966
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:33,200
Speaker 1: share unified class experience, I think. I think it also

1967
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 1: has the potential to obscure inequality between South South relations.

1968
01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:41,880
Speaker 1: So yes, two countries may both be a part of

1969
01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:44,000
Speaker 1: the Global South, but there could be a massive power

1970
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:46,920
Speaker 1: differential between them that you know, set them up for

1971
01:46:47,080 --> 01:46:52,160
Speaker 1: interventions and equal treaties, and also sort of different sorts

1972
01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:57,519
Speaker 1: of medaline. For example, Saudi Arabia, at least in one

1973
01:46:57,560 --> 01:46:59,679
Speaker 1: map that I saw, is considered part.

1974
01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:00,880
Speaker 5: Of the Global South.

1975
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:04,959
Speaker 1: But as we know, Sauy Arabia is famous first medline

1976
01:47:05,080 --> 01:47:10,160
Speaker 1: across Africa and the Middle East. It's interventions, it's financing

1977
01:47:10,240 --> 01:47:14,679
Speaker 1: of different conflicts across the region. Now I get why

1978
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:18,400
Speaker 1: the term is used. It creates a sense of shared struggle,

1979
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:22,680
Speaker 1: especially in anti imperialist and climate justice spaces. But I

1980
01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:25,080
Speaker 1: think it has weaknesses. You know, and how we construct

1981
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:26,559
Speaker 1: solidarity on that basis.

1982
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:28,639
Speaker 5: Yeah right, Yeah.

1983
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 1: And the other and final system that I wanted to

1984
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:35,120
Speaker 1: mention that has gained popularity these days is world systems theory,

1985
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:39,000
Speaker 1: which is actually older than class civilizations. It came out

1986
01:47:39,040 --> 01:47:43,200
Speaker 1: of Immanuel Wallastein's work during the Cold War and he

1987
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:45,400
Speaker 1: kind of stood out and said that he was rejecting

1988
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:48,280
Speaker 1: the three world system and the simplistic country by country

1989
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:52,040
Speaker 1: development models. Instead he created this world systems theory that

1990
01:47:52,160 --> 01:47:57,160
Speaker 1: saw capitalism as a single global system, not a patchwork

1991
01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:02,599
Speaker 1: of individual national economies, on labor roles, on commodity flows,

1992
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:05,719
Speaker 1: and on power concentration. And I think in an even

1993
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:09,000
Speaker 1: more globalized world it makes the most sense. So to

1994
01:48:09,120 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 1: wall Esteem, they have three different zones of the global economy.

1995
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:15,599
Speaker 1: You have the core, which as you know, have strong

1996
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:21,160
Speaker 1: states financial capital, tech heavy industries controlled over global institutions,

1997
01:48:21,720 --> 01:48:24,240
Speaker 1: and they tend to exploit the labor and resources of

1998
01:48:24,280 --> 01:48:27,720
Speaker 1: the periphery, while export and high value goods and debt

1999
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:30,960
Speaker 1: structures and the periphery of the countries that tend to

2000
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 1: have weaker institutions, extractive or career economies, reliance and export

2001
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:41,280
Speaker 1: and raw materials debt defendency and structural adjustment policies, and

2002
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:44,759
Speaker 1: they often dump in grounds for pollution, waste and arms

2003
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:48,839
Speaker 1: from the global North. The semi periphery are then considered

2004
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:51,519
Speaker 1: under his model, the countries that mediates between the core

2005
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:54,880
Speaker 1: and the periphery. These are industrialized and economies with mixed

2006
01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:58,720
Speaker 1: labor and capital exports. They sometimes exploit others while being

2007
01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 1: exploited themselves. These include countries like Brazil, India, Mexico, Turkey,

2008
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 1: and South Africa, and they tend to seal as the

2009
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:10,080
Speaker 1: buffers that stabilize the system while chasing core status.

2010
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:12,879
Speaker 5: I think this model is very dynamic.

2011
01:49:13,320 --> 01:49:16,439
Speaker 1: It could be more dynamic, but it does have the

2012
01:49:16,439 --> 01:49:21,920
Speaker 1: capacity to highlight the systemic interdependence of this glocal system,

2013
01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:26,600
Speaker 1: that one region's wealth is contingent on another's dispossession. It

2014
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:29,200
Speaker 1: makes it very useful for understanding that, you know, poverty

2015
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:32,559
Speaker 1: is not some religious happens, it's land is very clearly

2016
01:49:32,600 --> 01:49:38,280
Speaker 1: structured and developed by the wealth of the North. And

2017
01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:41,280
Speaker 1: I think also with the corporate free model, you see

2018
01:49:41,439 --> 01:49:43,920
Speaker 1: the sense of a one way flow where value and

2019
01:49:44,040 --> 01:49:47,200
Speaker 1: labor goes from the periphery to the core, but there

2020
01:49:47,280 --> 01:49:52,160
Speaker 1: is another direction that flew goes right because the migrants

2021
01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:54,760
Speaker 1: from the perifree, they go to the core. They fill

2022
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,040
Speaker 1: precurious rules and core economy is like care work and

2023
01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:01,600
Speaker 1: agriculture and logistics, and so they almost become an important

2024
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:05,120
Speaker 1: periphery within the core. And their absence from the periphree

2025
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:08,479
Speaker 1: also deprives the perifhree. Hence the phenomenon of brain drain,

2026
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:11,840
Speaker 1: where people are siphered the way as label and the

2027
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:15,559
Speaker 1: and the educated population tends to leave, you know, their

2028
01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 1: countries of origin. But I say, I'm saying it's not

2029
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:20,240
Speaker 1: just a one way flow because you also have that

2030
01:50:20,320 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 1: sense of diaspora and diasporic networks that kind of reverse

2031
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:28,640
Speaker 1: the flow. Remittances for some countries can be a significant

2032
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:32,840
Speaker 1: chunk of their national income. I think the Philippines is

2033
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:35,559
Speaker 1: a classic example of this. Some of the Caribbean countries,

2034
01:50:36,439 --> 01:50:41,479
Speaker 1: either historically or presently, we're very dependent on remittances from

2035
01:50:41,560 --> 01:50:46,080
Speaker 1: their diasporic populations sending money back home. Lebanon is another example,

2036
01:50:46,280 --> 01:50:49,519
Speaker 1: Salvador is another example. They become key part of the national GDP,

2037
01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:55,320
Speaker 1: that sort of relationship of my creatia. Yeah, but I

2038
01:50:55,360 --> 01:50:58,240
Speaker 1: think what I want to do with this corporate free model,

2039
01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:02,320
Speaker 1: or this core prefree semi prefer model is expanded. And

2040
01:51:02,439 --> 01:51:04,120
Speaker 1: one of the ways that I found very useful to

2041
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:08,400
Speaker 1: do so comes from fellow podcaster shout out to Elija

2042
01:51:08,479 --> 01:51:12,720
Speaker 1: j Ayub. Yeah, I read an article of his that

2043
01:51:13,280 --> 01:51:15,640
Speaker 1: was on the anarchist libraries called the periphery has no

2044
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:19,519
Speaker 1: time for binaries. This very crucial point, and I coulte

2045
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:22,839
Speaker 1: we are as peripheral to the global selt regimes crushing

2046
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:25,080
Speaker 1: us as they are perceived to be by the Western

2047
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:28,519
Speaker 1: think tanks and foreign ministers who view their imagined space

2048
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:31,200
Speaker 1: as the center of the world. China and Russia and

2049
01:51:31,240 --> 01:51:34,160
Speaker 1: Iran are peripheral to the West, and any and all

2050
01:51:34,200 --> 01:51:37,439
Speaker 1: activists in China and Russia and Iran a peripheral to

2051
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 1: their governments. So I kind of like this sense of

2052
01:51:40,160 --> 01:51:42,559
Speaker 1: not just looking on the country level, but looking at

2053
01:51:42,560 --> 01:51:46,719
Speaker 1: particular populations, populations within countries the relationships between them, bringing

2054
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:52,080
Speaker 1: that class dynamic. Yeah, with between populations more prominently.

2055
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:55,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like if you look at the like the example

2056
01:51:55,800 --> 01:51:58,920
Speaker 4: I'm familiar with, relate like the what we could look

2057
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:01,679
Speaker 4: at Kurdistan or meen right, there are ethnic groups within

2058
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:07,160
Speaker 4: that country that are subject to colonialism by the core

2059
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:10,519
Speaker 4: groups within that country, right, like asides Arab belt stuff

2060
01:52:10,640 --> 01:52:14,880
Speaker 4: for the Boma majority using classic colonial divide and rule

2061
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:18,280
Speaker 4: tactics right now against the rahiner in Themma. And like,

2062
01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:21,240
Speaker 4: I think it doesn't make sense to see that whole

2063
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:25,439
Speaker 4: country is peripheral, right, Like that binary doesn't function when

2064
01:52:25,479 --> 01:52:29,479
Speaker 4: like the salient colonial violence happening, especially in the MMA,

2065
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 4: it's happening within the Anma, but it doesn't make any

2066
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:39,240
Speaker 4: less salient. And like the experience of colonialism is still violent.

2067
01:52:40,160 --> 01:52:43,720
Speaker 4: And if we only use this like state level binary,

2068
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:45,919
Speaker 4: we will totally miss.

2069
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:50,439
Speaker 1: That exactly exactly, And I think it's important to be clear.

2070
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:54,439
Speaker 1: Obviously I've rejected a lot of these frameworks in covering them.

2071
01:52:54,960 --> 01:53:00,000
Speaker 1: You won't see me using the civilized primitive binary anytime soon.

2072
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:02,839
Speaker 1: But some of these concepts can be useful.

2073
01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:03,200
Speaker 9: You know.

2074
01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:05,599
Speaker 5: They do shape the way that we view the world,

2075
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:06,479
Speaker 5: how we.

2076
01:53:06,439 --> 01:53:09,960
Speaker 1: See ourselves the imperfect, of course, but because they're trying

2077
01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:12,679
Speaker 1: to map onto reality, and reality is a shifting beast.

2078
01:53:13,040 --> 01:53:16,559
Speaker 1: But I think it's good to have some sense or

2079
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:20,720
Speaker 1: some language to understand the inequality and podynamics present in

2080
01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:23,240
Speaker 1: the world. So we can reclaim these frameworks, so we

2081
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:25,360
Speaker 1: can reject them. You know, we could use them for

2082
01:53:25,439 --> 01:53:28,160
Speaker 1: solidarity or for division. But the question I want to

2083
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:31,360
Speaker 1: leave us with the wrap of this episode is how

2084
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:34,800
Speaker 1: do we build a world where these divisions are no

2085
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:39,880
Speaker 1: longer descriptive or relevant? And that's all I have for today,

2086
01:53:40,439 --> 01:53:41,840
Speaker 1: or power to all the people.

2087
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:42,759
Speaker 5: Peace.

2088
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:06,120
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to take it up. And here I'm

2089
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:08,679
Speaker 1: Andrew Sage and I'm back with James.

2090
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 5: It's me again. Welcome back. Yeah, good to be here.

2091
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:15,680
Speaker 1: Great to have you once again, offer you to have me.

2092
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:17,559
Speaker 1: I'm not sure the dynamic is here.

2093
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:21,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, MEI it's nice to be together.

2094
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 1: It's an egalitarian dynamic. You know, we're both having each

2095
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:24,880
Speaker 1: other in a sense.

2096
01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:28,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we're sharing this podcast.

2097
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:31,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there are a lot of concepts that

2098
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:33,880
Speaker 1: it's good to grasp to get a sense of how

2099
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:36,960
Speaker 1: this world works. Kind of continuing from the previous episode

2100
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:39,480
Speaker 1: where we spoke about all the different ways that we

2101
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:44,240
Speaker 1: can divide up the world and understanding the world and

2102
01:54:44,280 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 1: so on. Today's sort of pursuit of that endeavor. I

2103
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:51,440
Speaker 1: wanted to get into a particular concept that is so

2104
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 1: benign yet supervsive in this system, and it's the idea

2105
01:54:56,360 --> 01:54:59,440
Speaker 1: of externalization. Do you get what I mean by that?

2106
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, like making people of things other.

2107
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:06,880
Speaker 1: Yes, But specifically, I think I want to address how

2108
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:11,920
Speaker 1: capitalism persists by pushing harm onto the other, Yeah, onto

2109
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 1: the someone or something else, shifting the costs of particular actions,

2110
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 1: either environmentally, socially, or economically. I think the easiest example

2111
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:23,360
Speaker 1: I could point too is how a company may choose

2112
01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:26,520
Speaker 1: to save on disposal costs by dumping their waste into

2113
01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:30,240
Speaker 1: a river, which can thus poison the water supply, the ecosystem,

2114
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:32,920
Speaker 1: and the health of all those human and non human

2115
01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 1: lives who rely upon or live near that river. Do

2116
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:39,560
Speaker 1: you have another example you could probably point to? Yeah,

2117
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 1: I mean there are lots of them.

2118
01:55:40,480 --> 01:55:41,960
Speaker 4: One of them that I think of a lot is

2119
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:46,240
Speaker 4: like how in the US, rightly, products that we can't

2120
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:49,320
Speaker 4: recycle or that we can't landfill, we will literally ship to.

2121
01:55:49,360 --> 01:55:50,760
Speaker 5: Somewhere else to be dumped.

2122
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:55,440
Speaker 4: Like, our consumption creates so much excess and so much waste,

2123
01:55:55,640 --> 01:55:57,920
Speaker 4: and we can't be confronted with that waste, so we

2124
01:55:58,000 --> 01:55:59,960
Speaker 4: tip it to places where people consume less.

2125
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:03,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, I mean you see, I don't know

2126
01:56:03,320 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 1: if you've seen, ay the footage of some of these places,

2127
01:56:06,400 --> 01:56:12,600
Speaker 1: their whole costs of fast fashion waste for example in Africa,

2128
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:17,720
Speaker 1: or just eweiste leaching into the soil. It's really quite tragic.

2129
01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2130
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:22,080
Speaker 4: I remember someone on net once was telling me that

2131
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:25,360
Speaker 4: like one of the things that children did where they

2132
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:29,200
Speaker 4: had come from was they would pick through e waste,

2133
01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 4: specifically charging cables to get the copper out. M M.

2134
01:56:34,560 --> 01:56:36,879
Speaker 4: This would result in them having like these terrible injuries

2135
01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 4: to their fingers because they were like prying the cables apart,

2136
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:41,960
Speaker 4: and you know, over time they would get little pieces

2137
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:44,440
Speaker 4: of both shards of metal EMBD in their fingertips.

2138
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:44,880
Speaker 5: Town.

2139
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's terrible.

2140
01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:51,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty pretty grim condemnation of a way of consuming.

2141
01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:52,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's messed up.

2142
01:56:52,840 --> 01:56:56,240
Speaker 1: It's messed up, and I think when you see that

2143
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:58,960
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, it's hard to unsee it. When you

2144
01:56:59,000 --> 01:57:02,760
Speaker 1: see that impact on't the world, it's hard to unsee it.

2145
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:06,839
Speaker 1: But that's part of how this concept thrives, this externalization thrives,

2146
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:10,160
Speaker 1: it's by obscuring itself. Yeah, so that's what we kind

2147
01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:11,920
Speaker 1: of want to do with this episode, get up a

2148
01:57:12,000 --> 01:57:14,839
Speaker 1: full breadth of its history, its present, and its apparent

2149
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 1: future so that we can not see all the different

2150
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 1: ways that this occurs. Now, this pass and on of

2151
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:27,280
Speaker 1: courts may have always been an option on the table,

2152
01:57:27,760 --> 01:57:30,000
Speaker 1: but we can see that a lot of traditional economies

2153
01:57:30,080 --> 01:57:33,520
Speaker 1: did not go that route because traditional economies were often

2154
01:57:33,640 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 1: human economies, as David Greeber used the term in Debt,

2155
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:40,200
Speaker 1: the first five thousand years, you know, these were economies

2156
01:57:40,200 --> 01:57:44,080
Speaker 1: focused on human relationships. They were embedded in kinship and

2157
01:57:44,200 --> 01:57:48,120
Speaker 1: land and customs and obligation and reciprocity. So what you

2158
01:57:48,200 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 1: owed was really financial. It was to you enable your elder,

2159
01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:56,440
Speaker 1: your clan plan itself, and so you could not really

2160
01:57:56,920 --> 01:58:00,640
Speaker 1: avoid the costs of your actions on others, because that

2161
01:58:00,800 --> 01:58:04,360
Speaker 1: was at the center of it all others. But the

2162
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:07,440
Speaker 1: transition to capitalism was a shift in what the economy was.

2163
01:58:08,080 --> 01:58:10,600
Speaker 1: It enforced the idea that everything is or should be,

2164
01:58:10,720 --> 01:58:15,360
Speaker 1: up for sale. The economist called Polani called it the

2165
01:58:15,440 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 1: Great Transformation, when land, labor, and money were turned into

2166
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:24,640
Speaker 1: fictitious commodities, treated as if they were products for sale.

2167
01:58:25,880 --> 01:58:28,680
Speaker 1: Plenty saw the modern state and the capitalist market economy

2168
01:58:28,720 --> 01:58:32,320
Speaker 1: as a package deal. Graybot also made this very clear

2169
01:58:32,360 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 1: in Debt as well. For this new kind of economy

2170
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:37,480
Speaker 1: to take hold, people had to change how they thought

2171
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:40,160
Speaker 1: about work and trade and relation with each other. And

2172
01:58:40,160 --> 01:58:42,920
Speaker 1: see in the world, those conditions had to be created

2173
01:58:43,120 --> 01:58:46,360
Speaker 1: by the state, so you could look at how electritional

2174
01:58:46,360 --> 01:58:50,040
Speaker 1: economies and commons had to be disrupted to force the shift.

2175
01:58:50,440 --> 01:58:54,160
Speaker 1: In England, you had people pushed off of common land

2176
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:56,600
Speaker 1: that they had use for centuries, and they had no

2177
01:58:56,680 --> 01:58:58,520
Speaker 1: choice but to sell their labor to survive and go

2178
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 1: into the factories. We have to remember that he never

2179
01:59:01,240 --> 01:59:04,320
Speaker 1: started in the factories. That actually started in the colonies.

2180
01:59:04,760 --> 01:59:09,520
Speaker 1: This dispossession of people and from place started through that

2181
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:14,880
Speaker 1: colonization process. Already amplify through that colonization process extracting the

2182
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:18,080
Speaker 1: wealth of people or of labor, of land, of resources

2183
01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:21,680
Speaker 1: from one place to concentrate it to another to displace

2184
01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:27,040
Speaker 1: people and land and costs and secluialism was capitalism sort

2185
01:59:27,080 --> 01:59:30,440
Speaker 1: of training ground for externalization. You plunder a little bit

2186
01:59:30,440 --> 01:59:33,160
Speaker 1: over here, you profit a little bit over there. And

2187
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:34,800
Speaker 1: this is really where we get to the core of

2188
01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:38,920
Speaker 1: capitalist externalization. With the shifting of the costs. On a

2189
01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:42,240
Speaker 1: small scale that looks like the river pollution example. From

2190
01:59:42,320 --> 01:59:44,760
Speaker 1: the global scale, it looks like what will steam is

2191
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:47,960
Speaker 1: getting into with world systems theory how the wealth and

2192
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:52,040
Speaker 1: stability the coronations depends on the exploitation of the periphery.

2193
01:59:52,800 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 1: So slavery and genocide and ecological ruin, all of these

2194
01:59:56,360 --> 02:00:00,760
Speaker 1: are costs that create the wealth that the core enjoys,

2195
02:00:00,800 --> 02:00:04,080
Speaker 1: but it's made invisible to that core because when you're

2196
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:08,640
Speaker 1: part of an ongoing relationship with community, with land, with ecology,

2197
02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:13,080
Speaker 1: with people, the actions have consequences that matter, They reverberate,

2198
02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:15,360
Speaker 1: you can feel them, and that demands a level of

2199
02:00:15,400 --> 02:00:19,640
Speaker 1: responsibility on your part. But when you take the things

2200
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 1: that have been woven into relationship and turn them into

2201
02:00:23,440 --> 02:00:28,760
Speaker 1: plain old transactions, those transactions can then offload the costs,

2202
02:00:29,200 --> 02:00:33,800
Speaker 1: offload the consequences, make them someone else's problem. So, yeah,

2203
02:00:34,120 --> 02:00:37,720
Speaker 1: cloven is very affordable now, but it's affordable because somebody

2204
02:00:37,840 --> 02:00:44,400
Speaker 1: somewhere was underpaid and overworked. The smartphone. It's convenient, it's useful, successible,

2205
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:48,480
Speaker 1: but it's parts of mind and the dangerous conditions. You know,

2206
02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:55,320
Speaker 1: your food solicious, nutritious, not exactly affordable these days, but

2207
02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:59,520
Speaker 1: it's picked by hands that cannot afford that same meal.

2208
02:01:00,760 --> 02:01:03,960
Speaker 1: So the harms of these systems, the harms of these actions,

2209
02:01:03,960 --> 02:01:08,920
Speaker 1: of this level of consumption doesn't cease to exist, it's

2210
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:12,000
Speaker 1: just externalized, so it could be rendered invisible to one

2211
02:01:12,160 --> 02:01:15,120
Speaker 1: point of view. Yeah, and it's not something that can

2212
02:01:15,160 --> 02:01:18,360
Speaker 1: be set up without a fight. You know, people would resist.

2213
02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:23,120
Speaker 1: Enclosures were met with resistance, colonizations met with resistance, and

2214
02:01:23,200 --> 02:01:25,800
Speaker 1: even to the workers strike, you know, people do fight back.

2215
02:01:25,840 --> 02:01:30,760
Speaker 1: It's not just this sweeping and nevitable process. But because

2216
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:34,800
Speaker 1: of the collaboration between state and capital, that collusion of

2217
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:37,880
Speaker 1: status and capitalist interests, the whole system has managed to

2218
02:01:37,920 --> 02:01:41,800
Speaker 1: persist thus far. It's a very formidable forward dealing with

2219
02:01:41,960 --> 02:01:44,320
Speaker 1: So we can set it back here and there, but

2220
02:01:44,440 --> 02:01:48,200
Speaker 1: we have not defeated it yet. Yeah, and I say yet,

2221
02:01:48,280 --> 02:01:50,800
Speaker 1: because you know, as we get into there are ways

2222
02:01:50,840 --> 02:02:04,440
Speaker 1: to loosen its script. I think what's fascinating about capitalistic

2223
02:02:04,440 --> 02:02:08,920
Speaker 1: externalization today is just how much it has skilled and

2224
02:02:08,960 --> 02:02:12,840
Speaker 1: got more sophisticated in terms of the work that makes

2225
02:02:12,880 --> 02:02:16,800
Speaker 1: the world run. The most essential label is often the

2226
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 1: most invisible and undervalued and precurious labor. You know, where

2227
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:25,280
Speaker 1: we're talking about the work that's necessary to clothe ourselves,

2228
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:29,200
Speaker 1: the work that's necessary to feed ourselves, the work is

2229
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:32,680
Speaker 1: necessary to build infrastructure such as in the Gulf States

2230
02:02:32,720 --> 02:02:36,120
Speaker 1: where you have litual modern slavery taking place to build

2231
02:02:36,160 --> 02:02:40,520
Speaker 1: up those countries where they're talking about gig work, transportation

2232
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:43,720
Speaker 1: to livery that sort of thing, or reproductive work stuff

2233
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:47,520
Speaker 1: like what it's called housewifery or domestic labor. Should you

2234
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:49,240
Speaker 1: think of other examples as well.

2235
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:52,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like the one you gave about your cell phone, right,

2236
02:02:52,080 --> 02:02:57,200
Speaker 4: like those rare earth materials. Like it's not some like

2237
02:02:57,440 --> 02:03:00,800
Speaker 4: safe mining operation bring serves out.

2238
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:01,160
Speaker 5: Of the ground.

2239
02:03:01,920 --> 02:03:05,520
Speaker 4: It's human hands in dangerous conditions that kill people.

2240
02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:10,200
Speaker 1: Exactly, poisons people. It's it's not even necessarily a quicker death,

2241
02:03:10,240 --> 02:03:13,400
Speaker 1: it's often a slow, yeah, lifelong death.

2242
02:03:13,320 --> 02:03:16,360
Speaker 4: And it poisons that part of the world for generator.

2243
02:03:16,360 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 4: Like we could stop right now, and it would take

2244
02:03:18,760 --> 02:03:22,720
Speaker 4: generations for the damage to stop, exactly.

2245
02:03:23,480 --> 02:03:26,480
Speaker 1: That's the thing about destruction, right, destruction can be very quick,

2246
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:28,520
Speaker 1: as the rebuilding that can take.

2247
02:03:28,400 --> 02:03:30,080
Speaker 5: A long time. Yeah.

2248
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:33,520
Speaker 1: And if you look at how quickly Gazo has been flattened,

2249
02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:36,200
Speaker 1: this is how long it's going to take to recover

2250
02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:36,680
Speaker 1: from that.

2251
02:03:37,280 --> 02:03:40,680
Speaker 5: It's like nine and d yeah, yeah, yeah, like it.

2252
02:03:41,840 --> 02:03:45,040
Speaker 4: I mean I'm very familiar with that particular example, right,

2253
02:03:45,080 --> 02:03:47,400
Speaker 4: Like how quickly you can destroy something with a bomb

2254
02:03:47,400 --> 02:03:50,080
Speaker 4: from an aeroplane, and how hard people had to work

2255
02:03:50,120 --> 02:03:52,480
Speaker 4: to build it. In October of twenty three, I was

2256
02:03:52,520 --> 02:03:56,600
Speaker 4: in Kurdistan and like, I know how hard people work

2257
02:03:56,680 --> 02:03:58,960
Speaker 4: to build it, Jaba, right, to try and build a

2258
02:03:59,040 --> 02:04:02,000
Speaker 4: little island of democracy without the state in a place

2259
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:07,760
Speaker 4: where the state has been weaponized against tons of different

2260
02:04:08,080 --> 02:04:10,960
Speaker 4: ethnic groups who are not Arab, and even against Arab

2261
02:04:11,000 --> 02:04:13,560
Speaker 4: people who didn't agree with the state's particular.

2262
02:04:13,840 --> 02:04:15,000
Speaker 5: Wine a thing.

2263
02:04:15,960 --> 02:04:20,600
Speaker 4: And one night, you know, like the power station's gone,

2264
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:24,040
Speaker 4: they bombed while I was there, like an oxygen bottling

2265
02:04:24,120 --> 02:04:28,280
Speaker 4: plant for people who need supplemental oxygen, either temporarily or permanently,

2266
02:04:28,560 --> 02:04:31,320
Speaker 4: and like it's gone now. And now to build that

2267
02:04:31,440 --> 02:04:35,360
Speaker 4: back up in a world where you are largely alienated

2268
02:04:35,400 --> 02:04:38,080
Speaker 4: from the system of states in capital, right, you're trying

2269
02:04:38,120 --> 02:04:39,960
Speaker 4: to build stuff back up as much as you can

2270
02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:45,360
Speaker 4: from networks of solidarity and ingenuity, and that takes years.

2271
02:04:45,880 --> 02:04:49,520
Speaker 5: And yeah, yeah, but it's not visible, and.

2272
02:04:50,080 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 1: That's not even getting into the emotional and mental tool

2273
02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:54,760
Speaker 1: of something like that.

2274
02:04:55,200 --> 02:04:55,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2275
02:04:55,520 --> 02:04:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that can be a setback as well. Yeah,

2276
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:02,360
Speaker 1: when I've been talking about sources, we're talking about Yeah,

2277
02:05:02,400 --> 02:05:04,960
Speaker 1: that loss. Yeah, that that that pain.

2278
02:05:05,080 --> 02:05:06,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, the pain.

2279
02:05:06,920 --> 02:05:11,880
Speaker 1: Made even worse when the skilled people, skilled workers who

2280
02:05:11,880 --> 02:05:16,200
Speaker 1: were responsible for upkeeping such something like that also wiped

2281
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:18,320
Speaker 1: up by that same bomb. Makes it all the more

2282
02:05:18,360 --> 02:05:19,920
Speaker 1: difficult to recover.

2283
02:05:20,160 --> 02:05:23,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, or drawn away right by the conditions of becoming

2284
02:05:23,280 --> 02:05:25,960
Speaker 4: a livable So you have this like brain drain, where

2285
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:29,640
Speaker 4: people who have skills that are considered to be commercially

2286
02:05:29,800 --> 02:05:30,960
Speaker 4: valuable have.

2287
02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:32,120
Speaker 5: An opportunity to leave.

2288
02:05:32,640 --> 02:05:36,040
Speaker 4: The people who who don't have those have the opportunity

2289
02:05:36,080 --> 02:05:38,520
Speaker 4: to stay or don't have your opportunity to leave, I guess,

2290
02:05:38,560 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 4: like or even like, you know, the US made a

2291
02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:44,240
Speaker 4: bit a different version of externalization, I guess. But like

2292
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:46,240
Speaker 4: the US made a big thing of how it defeated

2293
02:05:46,240 --> 02:05:51,280
Speaker 4: the Islamic state in you know, twenty nineteen, I guess.

2294
02:05:51,360 --> 02:05:53,920
Speaker 4: I can't remember when the last Atlan Alba goose was,

2295
02:05:54,560 --> 02:05:58,600
Speaker 4: I think twenty nineteen, But like we externalized it off

2296
02:05:58,640 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 4: florid the cost of that's yeah, the dying part, like

2297
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:04,600
Speaker 4: the Yeah, US pilots did a whole lot of killing,

2298
02:06:05,080 --> 02:06:10,040
Speaker 4: but the dying part that, yeah, we externalized that right

2299
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:14,080
Speaker 4: to Kurdish and Arab and as Syrian fodder. Yeah, to

2300
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:18,480
Speaker 4: people who would whose lives didn't matter. Yeah, Like I

2301
02:06:18,480 --> 02:06:22,880
Speaker 4: remember a time standing in a cemetery there, just looking

2302
02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:26,040
Speaker 4: at lines and lines of graves, and I just left

2303
02:06:26,080 --> 02:06:28,560
Speaker 4: the house of someone who's thirteen year old son was

2304
02:06:28,680 --> 02:06:32,360
Speaker 4: killed in a drone strike and just thinking, like, each

2305
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:36,400
Speaker 4: of these is a mother burying her child. That like,

2306
02:06:37,040 --> 02:06:39,960
Speaker 4: we essentially asked for the most part, right, like, to

2307
02:06:40,040 --> 02:06:41,960
Speaker 4: do that. We said, hey, what you guys do the

2308
02:06:42,080 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 4: dying part because we don't want to like it kind

2309
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:47,040
Speaker 4: of sucks, sucks for the United States and Britain in

2310
02:06:47,080 --> 02:06:49,720
Speaker 4: Iraq and Afghanistan, so we'd like someone else to die now.

2311
02:06:51,000 --> 02:06:53,640
Speaker 4: And then you know, here we are a few years later,

2312
02:06:53,760 --> 02:06:57,120
Speaker 4: right and like the night before, Turkey has been bombing

2313
02:06:57,720 --> 02:07:02,000
Speaker 4: the place where I'm looking at these graves, and the

2314
02:07:02,120 --> 02:07:05,560
Speaker 4: US a doing shit to help, right Like, even though

2315
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:09,760
Speaker 4: these people had like made this massive sacrifice, the US

2316
02:07:09,880 --> 02:07:14,120
Speaker 4: wasn't like, yeah, we're your friends. It's not a friendship relationship,

2317
02:07:14,160 --> 02:07:17,520
Speaker 4: you know, Like it's it's like you said, it's an interaction, okay,

2318
02:07:17,600 --> 02:07:21,960
Speaker 4: like a yeah, purchase more than a solidarity based thing.

2319
02:07:22,640 --> 02:07:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And once again we really see that core externalized

2320
02:07:27,400 --> 02:07:32,320
Speaker 1: and its costs onto periphery and We see that both

2321
02:07:32,360 --> 02:07:36,280
Speaker 1: in the sense of on the global stage between countries

2322
02:07:36,480 --> 02:07:42,560
Speaker 1: or between populations cores and peripheres, but even internally within countries,

2323
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:46,760
Speaker 1: as we mentioned in the previous episode talking about that

2324
02:07:46,840 --> 02:07:49,560
Speaker 1: divide between the core and the periphery where you have

2325
02:07:50,320 --> 02:07:52,560
Speaker 1: but a lot of people have called the economies biggest trick,

2326
02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, your socialized failures and privatize profits. Yeah. So

2327
02:07:57,600 --> 02:08:00,320
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight with the financial crash, people

2328
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:04,040
Speaker 1: were evicted, but the balance got built out and the

2329
02:08:04,040 --> 02:08:10,480
Speaker 1: early stages of COVID corporations got relief, gig workers were exposed. Yeah,

2330
02:08:10,840 --> 02:08:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, in the process of austerity resulting from neoliberalism,

2331
02:08:16,600 --> 02:08:21,040
Speaker 1: social services get cut in order to balance the books,

2332
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:25,600
Speaker 1: but there's never any consideration of or let's trike cutting profits.

2333
02:08:25,960 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's one thing that can never go down.

2334
02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:33,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think or even like within you know,

2335
02:08:33,480 --> 02:08:36,520
Speaker 4: we all all food come from the soil at some point,

2336
02:08:36,640 --> 02:08:40,640
Speaker 4: right that, Like I can't tell you how many people

2337
02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:42,840
Speaker 4: I know that my family are in agriculture, right, who

2338
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:43,440
Speaker 4: have died or.

2339
02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:45,440
Speaker 5: Lost limbs on farms.

2340
02:08:45,440 --> 02:08:48,440
Speaker 4: It's the same is true if you're in the mining industry, right, Like,

2341
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 4: that's not something that's visible. You know, you don't like

2342
02:08:52,280 --> 02:08:54,600
Speaker 4: go to the supermarket and bite your bread, right, and

2343
02:08:54,600 --> 02:08:56,600
Speaker 4: you don't think that someone got their arm in the

2344
02:08:56,640 --> 02:08:59,040
Speaker 4: combine harvester when they were doing the field that went

2345
02:08:59,080 --> 02:09:01,520
Speaker 4: to the flower that major loaf of bread that costs

2346
02:09:01,520 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 4: one dollars ninety cents, and now the person doesn't have

2347
02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:04,720
Speaker 4: an arm.

2348
02:09:04,800 --> 02:09:06,600
Speaker 5: It's invisibilized. Yeah.

2349
02:09:07,240 --> 02:09:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the same thing when you see like

2350
02:09:08,840 --> 02:09:12,360
Speaker 1: these natural disasters taking place right, floods or burnings, right

2351
02:09:12,360 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 1: when when California is on file and when Pakistan is

2352
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:22,280
Speaker 1: completely flooded out. Those are the consequences of the actions

2353
02:09:22,280 --> 02:09:26,880
Speaker 1: of corporations, of the actions of this entire global economic system.

2354
02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:30,400
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, the corporations are getting carbon credits to continue

2355
02:09:30,440 --> 02:09:32,640
Speaker 1: doing what they will always do it. Yeah, you know,

2356
02:09:32,800 --> 02:09:35,040
Speaker 1: and so the actual consequences of what they're doing, they're

2357
02:09:35,040 --> 02:09:38,280
Speaker 1: paying for carbon credits, but the actual consequences of what

2358
02:09:38,280 --> 02:09:41,840
Speaker 1: they're doing are being paid for by the communities that

2359
02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:46,120
Speaker 1: are displaced by the consequences of this climate change.

2360
02:09:46,440 --> 02:09:46,680
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2361
02:09:46,760 --> 02:09:49,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we never talk about when we talk about migration, right,

2362
02:09:49,640 --> 02:09:51,760
Speaker 4: like that's a great The climate change is a great

2363
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:54,600
Speaker 4: example that we don't talk about how the bulk of

2364
02:09:54,680 --> 02:09:56,760
Speaker 4: people coming to the United States are coming from the

2365
02:09:56,760 --> 02:09:59,160
Speaker 4: place is most heavily impacted by climate change.

2366
02:09:59,320 --> 02:09:59,600
Speaker 1: Yep.

2367
02:10:00,120 --> 02:10:02,640
Speaker 4: Like I was in the Marshall Islands a few years ago,

2368
02:10:03,160 --> 02:10:09,000
Speaker 4: and there will be no more Marshall Islands within our lifetime, yeah,

2369
02:10:09,040 --> 02:10:12,200
Speaker 4: because of the consequences and massive corporations have made. But

2370
02:10:12,320 --> 02:10:15,080
Speaker 4: like they don't have any agency. It made me really

2371
02:10:15,120 --> 02:10:18,040
Speaker 4: like it was hard because they're doing stuff like they

2372
02:10:18,160 --> 02:10:21,240
Speaker 4: use a to get it to get around the atolls, right,

2373
02:10:21,280 --> 02:10:24,000
Speaker 4: they use little like two strikeout boards, and they're trying

2374
02:10:24,000 --> 02:10:27,560
Speaker 4: to build solar canoes instead and solar boats so that

2375
02:10:27,600 --> 02:10:31,480
Speaker 4: it's it's cleaner energy, right, Like less than a percent

2376
02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:34,480
Speaker 4: of a percent of the world's carbon emissions come from

2377
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:38,600
Speaker 4: the Marshall Islands, and they're like trying their hardest to

2378
02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:42,760
Speaker 4: do their part to reduce their emissions, but like they

2379
02:10:42,800 --> 02:10:44,880
Speaker 4: can't make the impact that needs to be made to

2380
02:10:44,920 --> 02:10:48,320
Speaker 4: stop the sea levels rising. And arguably, like when the

2381
02:10:48,360 --> 02:10:50,480
Speaker 4: world had a chance to do so, like you see

2382
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:52,720
Speaker 4: them speaking at the United Nations and then the UN

2383
02:10:52,800 --> 02:10:54,760
Speaker 4: being like the line has to go up.

2384
02:10:55,200 --> 02:10:55,480
Speaker 1: Yep.

2385
02:10:55,680 --> 02:10:57,440
Speaker 5: That means your island does to sink.

2386
02:10:57,920 --> 02:11:00,680
Speaker 1: And that's why you know, reform is not in can

2387
02:11:00,960 --> 02:11:03,720
Speaker 1: be enough, because this is how the system is designed.

2388
02:11:04,480 --> 02:11:07,720
Speaker 1: It's designed to push risk downward and outward, onto the

2389
02:11:07,720 --> 02:11:11,400
Speaker 1: working class, onto the global south, and onto the next generation.

2390
02:11:12,280 --> 02:11:16,600
Speaker 1: Because that's another dimension of externalization. Right time, even our

2391
02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:20,000
Speaker 1: future gets externalized in a sense. You know, all of

2392
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:24,200
Speaker 1: our resources are limited or finite resources that can used

2393
02:11:24,240 --> 02:11:26,880
Speaker 1: up now at an increase in velocity.

2394
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:29,920
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah, the national debt.

2395
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:33,280
Speaker 1: Of some countries is being something further and further into now.

2396
02:11:33,960 --> 02:11:36,600
Speaker 1: Right the emissions the center of all those emissions now

2397
02:11:37,120 --> 02:11:40,520
Speaker 1: fossil fuels, you know, all that stuff, because we don't

2398
02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:43,040
Speaker 1: have to do the consequences, so the future don't have

2399
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:47,920
Speaker 1: to do the consequences as the system digging its own grave,

2400
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:53,120
Speaker 1: because even though the system needs stability, it will sacrifice

2401
02:11:53,160 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 1: future stability for present profits. It will sacrifice nature, which

2402
02:11:58,520 --> 02:12:01,560
Speaker 1: is the basis of the economy. It will sacrifice nature

2403
02:12:01,880 --> 02:12:04,760
Speaker 1: to the economy in service of the economy. It will

2404
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:08,960
Speaker 1: treat natures disposable and infinite and something external to the

2405
02:12:09,000 --> 02:12:11,360
Speaker 1: way that we run things as if as if it's

2406
02:12:11,400 --> 02:12:14,600
Speaker 1: not going to catch up to us, and so as

2407
02:12:14,640 --> 02:12:18,360
Speaker 1: collapse will accelerate, as the consequences become more apparent on

2408
02:12:18,440 --> 02:12:22,080
Speaker 1: the sacrifice zones of the periphery. The powers that beyond

2409
02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:25,600
Speaker 1: interested in fixing it. You know, they're going to fortify

2410
02:12:25,680 --> 02:12:29,840
Speaker 1: themselves against it through border patrols, through climate walls, through

2411
02:12:29,880 --> 02:12:34,160
Speaker 1: militarize disaster response. They're going to double down.

2412
02:12:34,960 --> 02:12:37,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, make it harder and harder to see the consequences

2413
02:12:37,800 --> 02:12:44,360
Speaker 4: of a excessive consumption of capitalism, like until the levy breaks,

2414
02:12:44,400 --> 02:12:46,640
Speaker 4: I guess literally or metaphorically.

2415
02:12:47,400 --> 02:13:01,520
Speaker 1: Yep, literally or metaphorically. And I want people to keep

2416
02:13:01,560 --> 02:13:04,800
Speaker 1: in mind who are listening. You know, this Qan periphery

2417
02:13:04,960 --> 02:13:07,800
Speaker 1: is und just the periphery out there, it's also the

2418
02:13:07,800 --> 02:13:11,760
Speaker 1: periphery within that we're talking about in terms of consequences,

2419
02:13:11,800 --> 02:13:16,520
Speaker 1: the internal dumping grounds, whether it be you know, indigenous reservations,

2420
02:13:17,360 --> 02:13:21,040
Speaker 1: or the neighborhoods of black and round people, or the

2421
02:13:21,120 --> 02:13:25,600
Speaker 1: prisons that often serve as the holding tanks for discontent

2422
02:13:25,680 --> 02:13:28,920
Speaker 1: and for poverty and for all the nasty consequences that

2423
02:13:29,440 --> 02:13:31,400
Speaker 1: society doesn't want to deal with because of the way

2424
02:13:31,440 --> 02:13:32,600
Speaker 1: society has been structured.

2425
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:37,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, or just like under the bridge near your house,

2426
02:13:37,240 --> 02:13:38,520
Speaker 4: you know, like like we.

2427
02:13:38,600 --> 02:13:40,760
Speaker 1: Exactly treat exactly like.

2428
02:13:42,120 --> 02:13:45,600
Speaker 4: San Diego has this particular legisative initiative, which I find

2429
02:13:45,720 --> 02:13:50,280
Speaker 4: like obviously it's fucked, but also like it's very so

2430
02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:53,600
Speaker 4: it's so obvious, like they they passed to think on

2431
02:13:53,720 --> 02:13:56,320
Speaker 4: a camping there where they're going to make it illegal

2432
02:13:56,360 --> 02:13:57,160
Speaker 4: to be.

2433
02:13:57,000 --> 02:13:58,720
Speaker 5: Unhoused on the sidewalk.

2434
02:13:59,040 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 4: You're like, it's a bad and it's band against camping

2435
02:14:01,640 --> 02:14:05,600
Speaker 4: on the sidewalk, right, And all it does it doesn't

2436
02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:09,720
Speaker 4: provide housing for people, and that it doesn't solve the issue.

2437
02:14:10,120 --> 02:14:13,280
Speaker 4: It moves people. Our cities very hilly and we have

2438
02:14:13,360 --> 02:14:15,920
Speaker 4: lots of canyons in which they can't build. It moves

2439
02:14:15,920 --> 02:14:17,280
Speaker 4: people into these canyons.

2440
02:14:17,520 --> 02:14:18,440
Speaker 5: Wow, and it.

2441
02:14:18,520 --> 02:14:21,280
Speaker 4: Just makes the same people invisible, right, Like that's the

2442
02:14:21,360 --> 02:14:24,800
Speaker 4: goal that the goal is not to provide any form

2443
02:14:24,840 --> 02:14:29,360
Speaker 4: of solution. It's just to move these people away so

2444
02:14:29,400 --> 02:14:32,440
Speaker 4: they don't have to be poor in public. And so

2445
02:14:32,640 --> 02:14:37,080
Speaker 4: the people who who use homes as a vehicle for

2446
02:14:37,200 --> 02:14:39,680
Speaker 4: wealth creation, not as a place for humans to live,

2447
02:14:40,640 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 4: don't have to see the consequences of their actions.

2448
02:14:44,000 --> 02:14:49,200
Speaker 1: Exactly. It's all about what they want, right, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah,

2449
02:14:49,280 --> 02:14:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, in a sense, depending on how you look

2450
02:14:52,760 --> 02:14:55,800
Speaker 1: at it, any one of us can be a core

2451
02:14:56,520 --> 02:14:58,400
Speaker 1: and any one of us can be a periphery. You know,

2452
02:14:58,480 --> 02:15:02,000
Speaker 1: to our rulers, we are all the periphery that they

2453
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:06,240
Speaker 1: can push their consequences onto. In another sense, you know,

2454
02:15:06,720 --> 02:15:08,920
Speaker 1: I am part of the periphery, and do you are

2455
02:15:08,960 --> 02:15:12,400
Speaker 1: part of the core, James? And in another sense, you know,

2456
02:15:12,480 --> 02:15:14,080
Speaker 1: I might be considered part of the core in my

2457
02:15:14,120 --> 02:15:19,360
Speaker 1: own country in some ways because of my class position,

2458
02:15:19,560 --> 02:15:22,280
Speaker 1: because of my educational background, because of some of the

2459
02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:26,760
Speaker 1: ways that I can be insulated, whereas you know, other ways,

2460
02:15:26,800 --> 02:15:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, you might be the periphree in the United States,

2461
02:15:29,720 --> 02:15:32,520
Speaker 1: to the core, to the elites, to the ruling class.

2462
02:15:33,320 --> 02:15:36,800
Speaker 1: And so this isn't to diminish the very real differences

2463
02:15:36,880 --> 02:15:40,200
Speaker 1: between the global core and the global periphery. It's also

2464
02:15:40,240 --> 02:15:42,720
Speaker 1: make it clear to those of you in the global

2465
02:15:42,720 --> 02:15:45,160
Speaker 1: core that you should be in solidarity with that global

2466
02:15:45,160 --> 02:15:49,560
Speaker 1: periphery because their consequences are ultimately your own. You know,

2467
02:15:49,800 --> 02:15:51,760
Speaker 1: ultimately we are all the ones who are going to

2468
02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:55,600
Speaker 1: be holding the costs, cleaning the mess, surviving the fallout.

2469
02:15:57,800 --> 02:16:00,480
Speaker 1: And then it's nothow tough. It is because when you

2470
02:16:00,520 --> 02:16:04,800
Speaker 1: live with a system that is based on externalization harm,

2471
02:16:05,040 --> 02:16:07,920
Speaker 1: you can end up lashing out on others as well.

2472
02:16:08,480 --> 02:16:11,960
Speaker 1: You know that that that logic, that systemic logic becomes

2473
02:16:11,960 --> 02:16:14,000
Speaker 1: it o an lies, become as part of how you

2474
02:16:14,120 --> 02:16:17,920
Speaker 1: navigate even your relationships. But we don't have to accept

2475
02:16:17,920 --> 02:16:21,240
Speaker 1: that way of doing things. The periphery, regardless of which

2476
02:16:21,240 --> 02:16:24,600
Speaker 1: prefer you're referring to, does hold the potential for change.

2477
02:16:25,760 --> 02:16:28,440
Speaker 1: And so you know, in the beginning, when we were

2478
02:16:28,440 --> 02:16:33,840
Speaker 1: speaking of externalization of economic and the economic dimension specifically,

2479
02:16:34,680 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 1: it's important to understand capitalism relies on these flowers, these

2480
02:16:39,160 --> 02:16:43,240
Speaker 1: very smooth flows of labor, energy, and resources and data

2481
02:16:43,840 --> 02:16:47,520
Speaker 1: from periferrey to core however you define those terms, and

2482
02:16:47,600 --> 02:16:51,760
Speaker 1: so when we interrupt those flows, even briefly, we can

2483
02:16:51,760 --> 02:16:55,960
Speaker 1: shake those foundations. And that sort of approached, that effort

2484
02:16:56,040 --> 02:16:59,360
Speaker 1: to interrupt, is really part of what social revolution is about.

2485
02:16:59,640 --> 02:17:02,600
Speaker 1: It's how we make the changes that we want to see. Yeah,

2486
02:17:02,640 --> 02:17:06,280
Speaker 1: you know, I speak a social revolution as not some

2487
02:17:06,959 --> 02:17:12,640
Speaker 1: flashy one time event or moment in history, but as

2488
02:17:12,680 --> 02:17:15,280
Speaker 1: an ongoing process, as something that is taking place right

2489
02:17:15,320 --> 02:17:19,040
Speaker 1: now at different levels, in different ways all over the world.

2490
02:17:19,480 --> 02:17:21,039
Speaker 1: And so we can speak of the things we do

2491
02:17:21,200 --> 02:17:26,680
Speaker 1: to oppose the current system, like these strikes and blockades

2492
02:17:27,120 --> 02:17:30,720
Speaker 1: that have taken place around the world, the indigenous land

2493
02:17:30,720 --> 02:17:32,960
Speaker 1: defense struggles that are taking place around the world, they

2494
02:17:33,080 --> 02:17:36,600
Speaker 1: rent strikes and mutual aid that have taken place around

2495
02:17:36,640 --> 02:17:41,680
Speaker 1: the world. And then beyond that sort of opposition, talking

2496
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:43,879
Speaker 1: about the things we do to propose and alternative to

2497
02:17:43,920 --> 02:17:46,400
Speaker 1: construct the kind of world and the kind of life

2498
02:17:47,200 --> 02:17:48,680
Speaker 1: that we need so we don't have to rely on

2499
02:17:48,720 --> 02:17:52,720
Speaker 1: these systems anymore, that exploit us, to make these systems obsolete,

2500
02:17:53,520 --> 02:17:57,359
Speaker 1: to build the cooperatives, to build work a control, collectives

2501
02:17:57,360 --> 02:18:00,640
Speaker 1: and disaster response outside of the state, to sort of

2502
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:04,800
Speaker 1: crack the system, and to create in those cracks the

2503
02:18:04,840 --> 02:18:09,320
Speaker 1: space where a different system, a new life can grue. Yeah,

2504
02:18:09,680 --> 02:18:16,440
Speaker 1: to not become one big machine or one centralized struggle

2505
02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:21,160
Speaker 1: or movement, but to multiply and interconnect and adapt to

2506
02:18:21,360 --> 02:18:25,600
Speaker 1: the niche circumstances we're all dealing with, like my celium,

2507
02:18:26,280 --> 02:18:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, like the mushrooms.

2508
02:18:28,320 --> 02:18:32,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that technology, Like it's sort of you're like

2509
02:18:32,280 --> 02:18:37,039
Speaker 4: opening a crack thing paraphrases Zappatista texts right like and

2510
02:18:37,120 --> 02:18:40,600
Speaker 4: they have this either just phrase I like from Supermandente Marcos.

2511
02:18:40,600 --> 02:18:44,039
Speaker 4: That translates just like, we don't have to change the

2512
02:18:44,080 --> 02:18:47,120
Speaker 4: world because we're building another one right now, and you

2513
02:18:47,160 --> 02:18:48,920
Speaker 4: know you don't have to we don't have to conquer.

2514
02:18:49,360 --> 02:18:53,359
Speaker 4: Like there's this obsession on the left with like revolutionists,

2515
02:18:53,560 --> 02:18:55,879
Speaker 4: like you said, like an act that occurs at a

2516
02:18:55,920 --> 02:18:56,360
Speaker 4: point in.

2517
02:18:56,360 --> 02:18:58,480
Speaker 1: Time capital r revolution.

2518
02:18:58,959 --> 02:19:03,440
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, as opposed to like building the world where

2519
02:19:03,480 --> 02:19:05,840
Speaker 4: the things that we don't wish to see become irrelevant

2520
02:19:06,040 --> 02:19:09,760
Speaker 4: through our actions every day. Like you use the example

2521
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:12,800
Speaker 4: of people being an house, which I mentioned before, right,

2522
02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:16,040
Speaker 4: Like the way we build a world where those people

2523
02:19:16,040 --> 02:19:20,920
Speaker 4: aren't externalized is by not externalizing those people. Like you know,

2524
02:19:20,959 --> 02:19:24,600
Speaker 4: it's not hard to do. You probably talk to human

2525
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:29,120
Speaker 4: beings every day anyway. Just continue to do that, you know,

2526
02:19:29,200 --> 02:19:32,720
Speaker 4: take your neighbor a sandwich, and like that's the revolution

2527
02:19:32,840 --> 02:19:36,600
Speaker 4: that you can build slowly, and maybe it's not as exciting.

2528
02:19:37,240 --> 02:19:42,040
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, the one way you I've attended

2529
02:19:42,080 --> 02:19:45,440
Speaker 4: the revolutions where people fight against the state, but you

2530
02:19:45,520 --> 02:19:47,360
Speaker 4: still have to do the hard work. You still have

2531
02:19:47,400 --> 02:19:49,959
Speaker 4: to do that, like day to day building of a

2532
02:19:49,959 --> 02:19:52,760
Speaker 4: different way of relating to one another, even in those

2533
02:19:52,840 --> 02:19:56,080
Speaker 4: revolutions where things change quickly and violently exactly.

2534
02:19:56,520 --> 02:19:58,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I mean even before we get to

2535
02:19:59,000 --> 02:20:01,560
Speaker 1: that point you know, to be able to change the

2536
02:20:01,560 --> 02:20:04,160
Speaker 1: way relate to each other. It starts with mindset, It

2537
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:09,440
Speaker 1: starts with shifting our realm or possibility is, you know,

2538
02:20:10,040 --> 02:20:13,320
Speaker 1: not necessarily killing the memes of capitalism, and I mean

2539
02:20:13,680 --> 02:20:17,560
Speaker 1: memes in the sensor. Richard Dawkins originally use the term

2540
02:20:17,720 --> 02:20:20,879
Speaker 1: as these cultural ideas that persist, that spread, that adapt

2541
02:20:21,400 --> 02:20:24,600
Speaker 1: It's difficult to kill those those memes, but you can

2542
02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:29,160
Speaker 1: replace them with better memes. And so replacing and popularizing

2543
02:20:29,200 --> 02:20:33,760
Speaker 1: those memes, those ideas, you are challenging the idea that

2544
02:20:34,360 --> 02:20:37,960
Speaker 1: you know rest is laziness, you know, challenging the idea

2545
02:20:38,080 --> 02:20:41,280
Speaker 1: that you know the end goal is profit, that there's

2546
02:20:41,400 --> 02:20:44,160
Speaker 1: no other system besides Catholics, and that that's something better

2547
02:20:44,280 --> 02:20:47,720
Speaker 1: isn't on the horizon. Shift in that sense reality, I

2548
02:20:47,720 --> 02:20:50,680
Speaker 1: think is a very important part of the struggle, and

2549
02:20:50,760 --> 02:20:53,920
Speaker 1: with every act, because I think ideas have to be

2550
02:20:53,920 --> 02:20:57,600
Speaker 1: accompanied by act. With every act, I think it helps

2551
02:20:57,600 --> 02:21:02,200
Speaker 1: to break the spell, to cut off, to put an

2552
02:21:02,360 --> 02:21:06,480
Speaker 1: end to that externalization. Because even though capitalists and will

2553
02:21:06,520 --> 02:21:09,720
Speaker 1: continue to try to push its arm outward and downward,

2554
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:13,240
Speaker 1: are we and away from view, we can continue to

2555
02:21:13,360 --> 02:21:17,640
Speaker 1: challenge it inwardly, to push our struggle upward and to

2556
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:21,240
Speaker 1: center our struggle in the center of view so we

2557
02:21:21,280 --> 02:21:22,959
Speaker 1: can see it, so that we can feel us, and

2558
02:21:23,000 --> 02:21:26,640
Speaker 1: so that we can act against it. And that's all

2559
02:21:26,640 --> 02:21:31,560
Speaker 1: I have for this episode. All forward to all the people. Peace.

2560
02:21:52,760 --> 02:21:55,480
Speaker 9: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

2561
02:21:55,480 --> 02:21:58,600
Speaker 9: I'm joined by Mia Wong. I am reporting from the

2562
02:21:58,800 --> 02:22:03,920
Speaker 9: beautiful and side People's Republic of New York City, and

2563
02:22:03,959 --> 02:22:08,000
Speaker 9: we are Zoe back. It is Clover Dimes Squares on

2564
02:22:08,080 --> 02:22:14,119
Speaker 9: Suicide Watch. Zomentum is sweeping the nation. Zoronimum Donni has

2565
02:22:14,360 --> 02:22:18,920
Speaker 9: won the Democratic primary for the mayor of New York City,

2566
02:22:19,000 --> 02:22:24,200
Speaker 9: beating veterans sexual harasser Andrew Cuomo. It was it was

2567
02:22:24,280 --> 02:22:26,800
Speaker 9: quite a night in New York last night. We are

2568
02:22:26,879 --> 02:22:32,000
Speaker 9: recording this Wednesday morning. The final ranked vote will be

2569
02:22:32,080 --> 02:22:35,920
Speaker 9: done in about a week, but Cuomo has conceded the

2570
02:22:36,000 --> 02:22:40,080
Speaker 9: race to Zoron, who has declared a pretty decisive victory.

2571
02:22:40,400 --> 02:22:43,880
Speaker 12: It's been very funny seeing the dashing weeping of the

2572
02:22:43,959 --> 02:22:46,440
Speaker 12: Quotmo camp has been very funny. New York has officially

2573
02:22:46,480 --> 02:22:48,800
Speaker 12: been upgraded from a Tier two to a Tier one

2574
02:22:48,800 --> 02:22:51,920
Speaker 12: point five. Chinese City given give it another decade, it'll

2575
02:22:52,400 --> 02:22:54,160
Speaker 12: it will have entered Chinese civilization.

2576
02:22:55,280 --> 02:22:58,280
Speaker 5: The vibes are good. The vibes are good. Well.

2577
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:00,400
Speaker 9: The only difference is that now we will have an

2578
02:23:00,480 --> 02:23:04,039
Speaker 9: actually communist government in a city instead of the fake

2579
02:23:04,120 --> 02:23:07,600
Speaker 9: state capitalist governments of the Chinese mega.

2580
02:23:07,400 --> 02:23:13,640
Speaker 12: City objectively more communists to one point five chety city government.

2581
02:23:15,360 --> 02:23:16,720
Speaker 5: An American bogeeli.

2582
02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:17,720
Speaker 12: Uh.

2583
02:23:18,360 --> 02:23:20,320
Speaker 5: It was. It was a pretty exciting night in New

2584
02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:21,120
Speaker 5: York last night.

2585
02:23:21,240 --> 02:23:25,560
Speaker 9: I and many people were not expecting a clear result

2586
02:23:25,720 --> 02:23:29,360
Speaker 9: so soon. I think Cuomo conceded around ten to thirty

2587
02:23:29,959 --> 02:23:32,520
Speaker 9: as the boat was still coming in, but it was

2588
02:23:32,680 --> 02:23:37,000
Speaker 9: pretty clear that Zoron did a like very very impressive,

2589
02:23:37,760 --> 02:23:42,440
Speaker 9: very impressive sweep, really solid turnout across the boroughs, just

2590
02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:44,640
Speaker 9: to like get a sense of like where we were at.

2591
02:23:44,680 --> 02:23:48,520
Speaker 9: Like I got to announce to a pretty pretty large

2592
02:23:48,600 --> 02:23:51,959
Speaker 9: room full of trans people at the Metropolitan Bar that

2593
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:55,720
Speaker 9: Cuomo conceded to Zoron, and Zoron has won. And I

2594
02:23:55,800 --> 02:23:59,680
Speaker 9: had not felt better in months. It was really in

2595
02:23:59,720 --> 02:24:03,000
Speaker 9: big rating Is was like the first like ray of

2596
02:24:03,080 --> 02:24:06,119
Speaker 9: hope in a political sense that I've that that it's

2597
02:24:06,120 --> 02:24:09,480
Speaker 9: been like so deeply felt. Nothing ever happens. Camp Is

2598
02:24:09,720 --> 02:24:11,840
Speaker 9: Is is finally finally taking.

2599
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:16,440
Speaker 13: It so jover for nothing ever happens the shear, the

2600
02:24:16,480 --> 02:24:20,959
Speaker 13: sheer like joy and excitement being in like a room

2601
02:24:21,000 --> 02:24:24,640
Speaker 13: of like one hundred, one hundred queer people, as as

2602
02:24:24,800 --> 02:24:28,440
Speaker 13: as Cuomo gets defeated and so on securing the primary,

2603
02:24:28,879 --> 02:24:31,360
Speaker 13: it was it was just infigurating.

2604
02:24:32,160 --> 02:24:34,480
Speaker 9: In many ways, this feels a lot bigger than even

2605
02:24:34,560 --> 02:24:38,640
Speaker 9: like AOC's win a few years ago. And it feels

2606
02:24:38,680 --> 02:24:41,480
Speaker 9: so much more real than like the Sanders campaign really

2607
02:24:41,520 --> 02:24:44,240
Speaker 9: ever did, because New York is such as like as

2608
02:24:44,240 --> 02:24:47,720
Speaker 9: such a condensed concentrated area. Now it has not quite

2609
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:51,160
Speaker 9: like an inevitability but of a pretty a pretty strong

2610
02:24:51,240 --> 02:24:54,480
Speaker 9: certainty of of what's going to happen come November in

2611
02:24:54,560 --> 02:24:55,400
Speaker 9: the general election.

2612
02:24:56,120 --> 02:24:59,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, And I think the thing that's maybe in some

2613
02:24:59,160 --> 02:25:01,040
Speaker 12: ways the biggest deal about this is that New York

2614
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:05,200
Speaker 12: was like the capital of the giant sort of right

2615
02:25:05,200 --> 02:25:09,440
Speaker 12: wing backlash inside the Democratic Party to twenty twenty. Yeah, right,

2616
02:25:09,800 --> 02:25:11,440
Speaker 12: like this is the city that elected Eric Adams in

2617
02:25:11,440 --> 02:25:12,119
Speaker 12: twenty twenty one.

2618
02:25:12,240 --> 02:25:12,920
Speaker 5: Right, like it just.

2619
02:25:12,920 --> 02:25:16,400
Speaker 12: Straight up a cop is ruled for like four years

2620
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:21,920
Speaker 12: by just like this unhinged, corrupt alliance of like fucking

2621
02:25:21,920 --> 02:25:26,200
Speaker 12: real estate developers and like unhinged right wing billionaires and

2622
02:25:26,320 --> 02:25:30,640
Speaker 12: the cops who ran this really really effective sort of

2623
02:25:30,840 --> 02:25:33,640
Speaker 12: politics of like the demonization of unhoused people and like

2624
02:25:33,680 --> 02:25:37,400
Speaker 12: anti immigrant politics, and the shift right in this in

2625
02:25:37,400 --> 02:25:40,480
Speaker 12: the Neu Democratic Party like single handedly shifted the entire

2626
02:25:40,520 --> 02:25:42,800
Speaker 12: country to the right. You could literally see where the

2627
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:45,800
Speaker 12: New York media market was in the twenty twenty two elections.

2628
02:25:45,840 --> 02:25:48,320
Speaker 12: You could see on the map who was getting the

2629
02:25:48,360 --> 02:25:51,320
Speaker 12: news because it was so right wing. And that's just broken.

2630
02:25:51,959 --> 02:25:54,120
Speaker 12: That whole thing, Like this place was just which was

2631
02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:56,760
Speaker 12: like the capital of of the kind of revolution broke

2632
02:25:57,920 --> 02:26:00,240
Speaker 12: and that whole tide like you can it's you know,

2633
02:26:00,280 --> 02:26:02,840
Speaker 12: in the same way that like Hunters Thompson talked about

2634
02:26:02,840 --> 02:26:04,440
Speaker 12: how you could see like you could see them with

2635
02:26:04,480 --> 02:26:06,440
Speaker 12: the tide of the sixties broke standing in Vegas, Like

2636
02:26:07,160 --> 02:26:09,920
Speaker 12: sitting here right now, you can see the place where

2637
02:26:09,959 --> 02:26:13,240
Speaker 12: the tide of that right wing surge in New York broke.

2638
02:26:13,400 --> 02:26:16,440
Speaker 12: And it was last night we saw their high points. Yeah,

2639
02:26:16,480 --> 02:26:19,280
Speaker 12: they couldn't elect the fucking sexual predator. That was as

2640
02:26:19,280 --> 02:26:20,200
Speaker 12: far as they could go.

2641
02:26:20,560 --> 02:26:22,080
Speaker 5: A Cuomo too, Like like.

2642
02:26:23,840 --> 02:26:25,800
Speaker 9: I know some people are slightly annoyed about like the

2643
02:26:25,800 --> 02:26:30,080
Speaker 9: outsized influence of the New York mayoral election, affecting everybody

2644
02:26:30,879 --> 02:26:33,920
Speaker 9: who's like online and cares about politics in the United

2645
02:26:33,959 --> 02:26:39,400
Speaker 9: States and even even abroad. But this is like not

2646
02:26:39,400 --> 02:26:40,920
Speaker 9: not only as New York, like the biggest city in

2647
02:26:40,959 --> 02:26:45,080
Speaker 9: the country. This is like more so a representative battle

2648
02:26:45,240 --> 02:26:47,440
Speaker 9: for the future of the party and like what the

2649
02:26:47,480 --> 02:26:51,320
Speaker 9: future of democratic politics, not just the Democratic Party but

2650
02:26:51,400 --> 02:26:54,280
Speaker 9: literally like like democracies and like what the future of

2651
02:26:54,320 --> 02:26:56,520
Speaker 9: politics in this country is going to be is kind

2652
02:26:56,520 --> 02:27:00,720
Speaker 9: of emblematic over how this race went. Are we going

2653
02:27:00,800 --> 02:27:03,800
Speaker 9: to go back to like the same old establishment dem

2654
02:27:03,879 --> 02:27:08,840
Speaker 9: Party stuff, Clinton's Cuomos, Obama, Biden Harris, or are we

2655
02:27:08,879 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 9: actually going to legitimately chart a new course forward to

2656
02:27:12,520 --> 02:27:17,440
Speaker 9: counter this fascist element taking power across the country and

2657
02:27:18,000 --> 02:27:22,440
Speaker 9: against nearly all odds and like thirty million dollars, the

2658
02:27:22,560 --> 02:27:26,680
Speaker 9: underdogs actually would and pulled it off really strongly, And

2659
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:28,600
Speaker 9: this really is like the battle for the future of

2660
02:27:28,640 --> 02:27:31,200
Speaker 9: the party. Early turnout was massive for this primary. In

2661
02:27:31,240 --> 02:27:34,160
Speaker 9: the final three days of early voting, we saw like

2662
02:27:34,200 --> 02:27:38,240
Speaker 9: the youngest demographic of voters come out in high high numbers.

2663
02:27:38,879 --> 02:27:42,560
Speaker 9: One quarter of early voters were first time Democratic primary participants.

2664
02:27:43,000 --> 02:27:44,800
Speaker 9: And young voters between the ages of twenty five and

2665
02:27:44,840 --> 02:27:48,520
Speaker 9: thirty four made up the largest share of early turnout.

2666
02:27:49,080 --> 02:27:51,760
Speaker 9: And this was all up against the entire forces of

2667
02:27:51,800 --> 02:27:56,039
Speaker 9: the Democratic Party establishment coming together in the past few months,

2668
02:27:56,320 --> 02:28:00,840
Speaker 9: just specifically to stop Mamdani from taking the primary election.

2669
02:28:01,360 --> 02:28:04,000
Speaker 9: There was twenty five million dollars of super pac funding

2670
02:28:04,040 --> 02:28:07,600
Speaker 9: behind Andrew Cuomo, which is the largest in New York

2671
02:28:07,680 --> 02:28:11,480
Speaker 9: City mayoral history. This pack was backed by Michael Bloomberg,

2672
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:15,480
Speaker 9: Door Dash, Bill Ackman Trump funder and this pack allowed

2673
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:18,360
Speaker 9: Cuomo backers to spend three times as much money than

2674
02:28:18,440 --> 02:28:23,760
Speaker 9: what Quomo's actual campaign legally can. In comparison, Mamdanie's pack

2675
02:28:23,840 --> 02:28:26,800
Speaker 9: had just one point two million dollars plus five hundred

2676
02:28:26,959 --> 02:28:31,160
Speaker 9: thousand in anti Cuomo spending from the Working Families Party.

2677
02:28:32,160 --> 02:28:36,280
Speaker 9: In an attempt to seal the deal, the Cuomo team

2678
02:28:36,800 --> 02:28:41,959
Speaker 9: got the coveted Bill Clinton endorsement, really really forming like

2679
02:28:42,120 --> 02:28:47,599
Speaker 9: the Toucher's alliance with Cuomo and Clinton, Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton.

2680
02:28:47,360 --> 02:28:49,880
Speaker 5: There's one more sex pens for you to endorse. It's

2681
02:28:49,920 --> 02:28:55,320
Speaker 5: time for you to endorse Donald Trump. What world job

2682
02:28:55,840 --> 02:28:56,520
Speaker 5: that like?

2683
02:28:56,560 --> 02:28:59,760
Speaker 9: That that really was like emblematic of like the type

2684
02:28:59,760 --> 02:29:02,879
Speaker 9: of democratic party that Mamdani was up against, right, and

2685
02:29:02,920 --> 02:29:05,760
Speaker 9: the one that working people of New York and people

2686
02:29:05,760 --> 02:29:09,920
Speaker 9: around the country we're hoping might finally get defeated after

2687
02:29:09,959 --> 02:29:12,600
Speaker 9: it's won one over on Sanders for the past like

2688
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:17,160
Speaker 9: eight years, and last night it finally happened.

2689
02:29:17,720 --> 02:29:17,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2690
02:29:18,040 --> 02:29:20,200
Speaker 12: And I also want to say, like this is not

2691
02:29:20,360 --> 02:29:23,240
Speaker 12: just when we're talking about the sort of political apparatus

2692
02:29:23,280 --> 02:29:26,240
Speaker 12: to the Democratic Party being deployed in support of Cuomo.

2693
02:29:26,720 --> 02:29:29,640
Speaker 12: It wasn't just like the DoorDash guys like bringing out

2694
02:29:29,680 --> 02:29:33,920
Speaker 12: their checkbook. It was like the actual internal political machines

2695
02:29:33,959 --> 02:29:36,520
Speaker 12: of a whole bunch of very very important and influential

2696
02:29:37,160 --> 02:29:40,360
Speaker 12: local and sort of mid level political officials through their

2697
02:29:40,560 --> 02:29:45,000
Speaker 12: entire political machines behind Cuomo and then got fucking rolled

2698
02:29:45,879 --> 02:29:50,520
Speaker 12: in ways that are just absolutely hysterical. Entire political machines

2699
02:29:50,560 --> 02:29:54,400
Speaker 12: basically just got annihilated trying to stop this.

2700
02:29:54,560 --> 02:29:54,800
Speaker 9: It was.

2701
02:29:55,080 --> 02:29:57,120
Speaker 12: It reminds me in a lot of ways of like

2702
02:29:57,240 --> 02:29:59,240
Speaker 12: the way that like a bunch of the old machines

2703
02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:03,280
Speaker 12: broke in in Chicago with with Brandon Johnson were like

2704
02:30:03,280 --> 02:30:05,800
Speaker 12: you had like Mike Madigan making one last appearance the

2705
02:30:05,800 --> 02:30:08,959
Speaker 12: most powerful figure in Illinois politics for thirty years and

2706
02:30:09,080 --> 02:30:13,720
Speaker 12: just gets crushed in that election. So this was both

2707
02:30:13,760 --> 02:30:17,119
Speaker 12: a money efforts and a we're using our political machines

2708
02:30:17,120 --> 02:30:18,280
Speaker 12: on the ground to try to do this, and they

2709
02:30:18,440 --> 02:30:20,080
Speaker 12: fucking lost.

2710
02:30:20,320 --> 02:30:21,199
Speaker 5: And it rules.

2711
02:30:22,080 --> 02:30:25,160
Speaker 9: They were photo shopping images of Zoron to make him

2712
02:30:25,200 --> 02:30:28,760
Speaker 9: look more brown and muslimah. They were making its beard longer,

2713
02:30:28,800 --> 02:30:31,600
Speaker 9: they were making his skin and his hairy darker. Like,

2714
02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:35,400
Speaker 9: they were pulling out all the stops and it didn't work.

2715
02:30:35,720 --> 02:30:37,959
Speaker 12: It was like Clinton two thousand and eight, like Barack

2716
02:30:38,000 --> 02:30:41,360
Speaker 12: Hussein Obama, like burther conspiracy shit. Yeah, like, that's the

2717
02:30:41,440 --> 02:30:44,280
Speaker 12: last time I remember this party being this racist, like

2718
02:30:44,600 --> 02:30:45,880
Speaker 12: very specifically in these lines.

2719
02:30:45,879 --> 02:30:48,480
Speaker 5: And it failed, and it didn't work. It failed.

2720
02:30:49,280 --> 02:30:51,800
Speaker 9: We'll talk about some of the actual results and Zoron's

2721
02:30:51,840 --> 02:31:05,840
Speaker 9: campaign itself after this break. All right, we are back.

2722
02:31:06,240 --> 02:31:08,760
Speaker 9: It's a beautiful sunny day in New York. It's actually

2723
02:31:08,879 --> 02:31:13,480
Speaker 9: way too hot. There's a massive heat wave going through

2724
02:31:13,520 --> 02:31:16,080
Speaker 9: the entire East coast. New York has been like one

2725
02:31:16,160 --> 02:31:19,240
Speaker 9: hundred degrees the past few days. Thank god, it was

2726
02:31:19,280 --> 02:31:21,640
Speaker 9: one hundred degrees on the day of the election. It

2727
02:31:21,720 --> 02:31:25,840
Speaker 9: kept all those Cuomo supporters home. We're calling him Mandate

2728
02:31:25,879 --> 02:31:29,880
Speaker 9: of Heaven Mandani, good stuff. So let's let's let's talk

2729
02:31:29,920 --> 02:31:33,520
Speaker 9: about the actual results so far. So as as of

2730
02:31:33,560 --> 02:31:35,400
Speaker 9: this morning, Wednesday morning, we got ninety three percent of

2731
02:31:35,400 --> 02:31:38,320
Speaker 9: the vote in on the first rank, Mondanni has forty

2732
02:31:38,360 --> 02:31:42,320
Speaker 9: three point five percent versus Cuomo's thirty six point four

2733
02:31:43,200 --> 02:31:47,959
Speaker 9: and Zoran ally brad Lander with eleven point three followed

2734
02:31:47,959 --> 02:31:51,400
Speaker 9: by a whole bunch of others. Now, really, as soon

2735
02:31:51,440 --> 02:31:54,080
Speaker 9: as like numbers started coming in, like after the early vote,

2736
02:31:54,080 --> 02:31:56,920
Speaker 9: which which we expected would lean in favor of Zoran,

2737
02:31:57,000 --> 02:32:00,880
Speaker 9: but after more and more results started coming in, Manhattan

2738
02:32:01,000 --> 02:32:03,360
Speaker 9: started to looking more and more orange. And that's the

2739
02:32:03,480 --> 02:32:06,600
Speaker 9: that's color at the times as using for Zoron. And

2740
02:32:06,959 --> 02:32:10,640
Speaker 9: this was the first like sign for me that Zora

2741
02:32:10,720 --> 02:32:12,960
Speaker 9: might be having a pretty good night, because people were

2742
02:32:12,959 --> 02:32:16,320
Speaker 9: expecting that, you know, pretty big chunks of Manhattan and

2743
02:32:16,360 --> 02:32:18,720
Speaker 9: certainly like Staten Island in the Bronx would be would

2744
02:32:18,760 --> 02:32:21,880
Speaker 9: be going towards Cuomo decisively, or at least if this,

2745
02:32:22,000 --> 02:32:23,640
Speaker 9: if this was going to be Cumba's night, that's what

2746
02:32:23,680 --> 02:32:27,320
Speaker 9: we would be seeing. And that's not what happened. The

2747
02:32:27,360 --> 02:32:30,160
Speaker 9: northern tip of Staten Island leaning towards mom Donnie and

2748
02:32:30,959 --> 02:32:35,080
Speaker 9: really most of Manhattan except for the Upper west Side

2749
02:32:35,080 --> 02:32:38,960
Speaker 9: and the Upper east Side went to Zoron. And that

2750
02:32:39,120 --> 02:32:43,039
Speaker 9: is like super super I guess, like surprising, but like

2751
02:32:43,120 --> 02:32:45,640
Speaker 9: positive surprise, like surprisingly, this is this is like this

2752
02:32:45,720 --> 02:32:48,360
Speaker 9: is great. Yeah, like a really really strong night.

2753
02:32:48,800 --> 02:32:49,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2754
02:32:49,280 --> 02:32:51,000
Speaker 12: One of the most interesting trends of this was that

2755
02:32:51,080 --> 02:32:55,800
Speaker 12: Mandanny just just absolutely annihilated like every Asian district up

2756
02:32:55,920 --> 02:32:59,680
Speaker 12: up fifteen, up fifteen and not Okay, so you would

2757
02:32:59,760 --> 02:33:03,000
Speaker 12: kind of expect this in South Asian districts. He went

2758
02:33:03,160 --> 02:33:08,000
Speaker 12: into a bunch of what are generally pretty conservative, like

2759
02:33:08,000 --> 02:33:11,480
Speaker 12: like Chinese districts and like Queens and shit, and just

2760
02:33:11,640 --> 02:33:13,359
Speaker 12: fucking rolled them.

2761
02:33:13,480 --> 02:33:16,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like in like South Brooklyn.

2762
02:33:15,680 --> 02:33:17,520
Speaker 12: Like a very very powerful sort of like right wing

2763
02:33:17,600 --> 02:33:20,320
Speaker 12: Chinese political machine like went to war against him, just annihilated.

2764
02:33:20,800 --> 02:33:21,000
Speaker 5: Right.

2765
02:33:21,320 --> 02:33:24,119
Speaker 12: The Asian vote in general had kind of been trending

2766
02:33:24,200 --> 02:33:26,440
Speaker 12: right in the last half a decade based on sort

2767
02:33:26,480 --> 02:33:29,840
Speaker 12: of like anti immigrant shit, anti homeless shit and all

2768
02:33:29,879 --> 02:33:32,480
Speaker 12: of that. Just like instantly pivoted.

2769
02:33:32,120 --> 02:33:35,440
Speaker 9: Everything's out of astoria in Queens just just full full

2770
02:33:35,480 --> 02:33:38,320
Speaker 9: zor On. Yeah, and like just rolled these districts.

2771
02:33:38,720 --> 02:33:41,080
Speaker 12: And I think this is a thing where I think

2772
02:33:41,080 --> 02:33:42,640
Speaker 12: We're gonna talk more about the ice stuff later, but

2773
02:33:42,680 --> 02:33:44,440
Speaker 12: I genuinely think part of what we're starting to see

2774
02:33:44,480 --> 02:33:45,920
Speaker 12: here is like.

2775
02:33:45,600 --> 02:33:49,440
Speaker 9: Brad Lander, who the MVP brad Lander honestly like like

2776
02:33:49,520 --> 02:33:52,160
Speaker 9: a critical part of this who knows to him like absolutely,

2777
02:33:52,280 --> 02:33:54,400
Speaker 9: like we certainly have different opinions on some key issues,

2778
02:33:54,800 --> 02:33:57,520
Speaker 9: but he really pulled out the stops to make sure

2779
02:33:57,560 --> 02:33:59,800
Speaker 9: that Cuomo does not get in, yeah, and helped him

2780
02:34:00,200 --> 02:34:04,080
Speaker 9: defend against them pretty pretty horrific yeah, is homophobic attacks.

2781
02:34:04,080 --> 02:34:06,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, and like, and that alliance I think was actually

2782
02:34:06,400 --> 02:34:09,120
Speaker 12: was really really important because it meant that the kind

2783
02:34:09,120 --> 02:34:12,800
Speaker 12: of like left flank of the liberals and the progressives

2784
02:34:12,800 --> 02:34:14,760
Speaker 12: and sort of social democrats weren't fighting each other, which

2785
02:34:14,800 --> 02:34:17,080
Speaker 12: has been what's happening and like fucking every other city

2786
02:34:17,320 --> 02:34:18,920
Speaker 12: is that these two factions go to war and then

2787
02:34:18,959 --> 02:34:22,680
Speaker 12: like just the fucking sex predators win the election because

2788
02:34:22,720 --> 02:34:25,360
Speaker 12: of it, and shere you get a very very important

2789
02:34:25,360 --> 02:34:28,200
Speaker 12: strategic alliance that allows a bunch of people to vote

2790
02:34:28,200 --> 02:34:33,400
Speaker 12: for Mamdani who wouldn't have. And this this sort of

2791
02:34:33,600 --> 02:34:39,000
Speaker 12: alliance that they've forged here was just like stunningly successful,

2792
02:34:39,040 --> 02:34:43,320
Speaker 12: basically like outperformed expectations basically everywhere. I think this is

2793
02:34:43,320 --> 02:34:45,760
Speaker 12: also a kind of decisive anti ice thing because both

2794
02:34:45,800 --> 02:34:49,000
Speaker 12: Mamdanni and Lander have been actually straight up on the

2795
02:34:49,000 --> 02:34:53,040
Speaker 12: front lines of like anti ice stuff. Lander famously got

2796
02:34:53,120 --> 02:34:56,600
Speaker 12: arrested for trying to get in the way of a

2797
02:34:56,800 --> 02:35:01,320
Speaker 12: just hideously illegal disappearance of Uffish constituents and got fucking

2798
02:35:01,400 --> 02:35:04,680
Speaker 12: arrested for it. And I think that stuff we're seeing

2799
02:35:04,680 --> 02:35:08,200
Speaker 12: the political impacts of everyone being like, holy shit, they're

2800
02:35:08,200 --> 02:35:10,360
Speaker 12: trying to deport like every nu migration in this country.

2801
02:35:10,440 --> 02:35:10,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2802
02:35:10,959 --> 02:35:14,640
Speaker 9: Madanni up six points with the Hispanic up five with

2803
02:35:14,840 --> 02:35:20,680
Speaker 9: white plus fifteen Asian. Quomo is is up eighteen percent

2804
02:35:20,760 --> 02:35:22,320
Speaker 9: with the black vote.

2805
02:35:22,040 --> 02:35:24,879
Speaker 5: And Quomo like underperformed there too, he did underperform.

2806
02:35:25,000 --> 02:35:25,320
Speaker 12: Yeah.

2807
02:35:25,480 --> 02:35:30,400
Speaker 9: One thing that's interesting is the medium income levels. Madani

2808
02:35:30,440 --> 02:35:35,280
Speaker 9: did better with middle class and high income vote middle

2809
02:35:35,280 --> 02:35:39,280
Speaker 9: class up ten, high income up thirteen, whereas Cuomo did

2810
02:35:39,520 --> 02:35:43,400
Speaker 9: better up thirteen with lower income, Which I mean, this

2811
02:35:43,480 --> 02:35:45,600
Speaker 9: is like some classic We see this a lot in

2812
02:35:45,600 --> 02:35:50,039
Speaker 9: like national elections, where like people vote against their own interests.

2813
02:35:50,440 --> 02:35:51,040
Speaker 5: This is weird.

2814
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:54,680
Speaker 9: This is like what the Republican Party gets so much

2815
02:35:54,680 --> 02:35:58,160
Speaker 9: of their support from. So this is also like education

2816
02:35:58,240 --> 02:35:59,039
Speaker 9: bracket difference.

2817
02:35:59,160 --> 02:36:00,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I think some of it also is like

2818
02:36:00,680 --> 02:36:02,560
Speaker 12: a lot of the voters who would have voted vandor

2819
02:36:02,640 --> 02:36:06,520
Speaker 12: and would not have supported Mondani like were given permission

2820
02:36:06,560 --> 02:36:09,520
Speaker 12: to back him, and that boosted his vote share a lot.

2821
02:36:09,959 --> 02:36:12,480
Speaker 9: Yes, But like in terms of like why lower income

2822
02:36:12,560 --> 02:36:15,760
Speaker 9: is swinging towards Cuomo, Yeah, specifically people making under fifty

2823
02:36:15,840 --> 02:36:19,760
Speaker 9: k year swinging more towards Cuomo, even though Zoran is

2824
02:36:19,840 --> 02:36:23,360
Speaker 9: running a campaign specifically for those people that is also

2825
02:36:23,480 --> 02:36:24,600
Speaker 9: largely up in the bronx.

2826
02:36:24,920 --> 02:36:27,360
Speaker 12: I will also say, like, the other thing that's very

2827
02:36:27,400 --> 02:36:29,680
Speaker 12: weird about the way these are tabulated is because it's

2828
02:36:29,879 --> 02:36:33,560
Speaker 12: it's tabulated by area, not by the actual people, yes, correct,

2829
02:36:33,600 --> 02:36:36,560
Speaker 12: which means you can get these things where like you

2830
02:36:36,600 --> 02:36:39,160
Speaker 12: see this Trump sometimes where like it looks like he's

2831
02:36:39,160 --> 02:36:41,720
Speaker 12: doing really well in like a district with like a

2832
02:36:41,760 --> 02:36:44,680
Speaker 12: really with like really low median income. But what's happening

2833
02:36:44,720 --> 02:36:46,920
Speaker 12: is like every single rich person in that district voted

2834
02:36:46,959 --> 02:36:49,760
Speaker 12: and then no one else did. Yeah, So the numbers

2835
02:36:49,800 --> 02:36:52,560
Speaker 12: are a bit weird when when when you're looking at

2836
02:36:52,560 --> 02:36:55,240
Speaker 12: these sort of like priestin counts. Yeah, votes, but yeah,

2837
02:36:55,320 --> 02:36:56,960
Speaker 12: it's it's been a I don't know it's a it

2838
02:36:57,040 --> 02:36:59,039
Speaker 12: is a constant trend in the Bara Ohough, I guess

2839
02:36:59,040 --> 02:37:01,520
Speaker 12: this is everything that was actually very very different from Chicago,

2840
02:37:01,600 --> 02:37:04,879
Speaker 12: where in Chicago it was like basically pure income line

2841
02:37:04,920 --> 02:37:09,199
Speaker 12: for Brandon Johnson, the sort of like vaguely left person.

2842
02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:13,480
Speaker 9: There is like New York is a very like middle

2843
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:15,680
Speaker 9: class city in a lot of ways, Like there's a

2844
02:37:15,800 --> 02:37:19,039
Speaker 9: lot of people in the middle class bracket, a lot

2845
02:37:19,080 --> 02:37:21,120
Speaker 9: of people in the lower class bracket as well, but

2846
02:37:21,280 --> 02:37:23,560
Speaker 9: in terms of like like medium income levels, there's like

2847
02:37:23,600 --> 02:37:27,400
Speaker 9: a huge, huge number of like middle class voters. Specifically,

2848
02:37:27,440 --> 02:37:30,200
Speaker 9: like the vote map for the for the middle income

2849
02:37:30,760 --> 02:37:35,519
Speaker 9: is so much bigger. I think it is worth highlighting

2850
02:37:36,000 --> 02:37:40,199
Speaker 9: what made Zorn's campaign special right, Like people are probably

2851
02:37:40,200 --> 02:37:43,520
Speaker 9: pretty familiar with like the slick videos, which yeah, he

2852
02:37:43,560 --> 02:37:46,480
Speaker 9: was really good at making videos. He is a great communicator,

2853
02:37:46,520 --> 02:37:50,200
Speaker 9: probably his biggest, like biggest strength is his ability to

2854
02:37:50,240 --> 02:37:53,640
Speaker 9: be like personable and is of just a pretty good

2855
02:37:53,720 --> 02:37:57,920
Speaker 9: public speakers, great at communication. His mom's a relatively well

2856
02:37:57,959 --> 02:38:00,960
Speaker 9: known filmmaker, and not super surprising that he put he

2857
02:38:01,000 --> 02:38:03,480
Speaker 9: put a lot of work into making sure his like

2858
02:38:03,840 --> 02:38:07,320
Speaker 9: online TV ads were like top notch. One of the

2859
02:38:07,360 --> 02:38:09,879
Speaker 9: more unique things that he did is a huge focus

2860
02:38:09,920 --> 02:38:13,840
Speaker 9: on multi language outreach, which like, obviously New York is

2861
02:38:13,840 --> 02:38:17,480
Speaker 9: a city of like dozens and dozens and dozens of languages,

2862
02:38:17,920 --> 02:38:22,080
Speaker 9: and the Quoto campaign did not focus on that, but

2863
02:38:22,160 --> 02:38:25,440
Speaker 9: this was a huge, huge focus of Zoron's campaign. Like,

2864
02:38:25,640 --> 02:38:27,520
Speaker 9: when you signed up for phone banking, you got to

2865
02:38:27,560 --> 02:38:31,520
Speaker 9: go through a massive dropdown menu of languages to phone banking,

2866
02:38:32,000 --> 02:38:35,640
Speaker 9: and Zoron himself was like speaking multiple languages. On the

2867
02:38:35,720 --> 02:38:39,920
Speaker 9: campaign trail, he had a huge, huge volunteer ground game.

2868
02:38:40,000 --> 02:38:43,760
Speaker 9: It was canvassing door Knox phone banking. My apartment had

2869
02:38:43,800 --> 02:38:46,520
Speaker 9: people stop in multiple times in the past week alone.

2870
02:38:47,280 --> 02:38:50,240
Speaker 9: The biggest focus of his campaign itself was a focus

2871
02:38:50,280 --> 02:38:53,720
Speaker 9: on affordability. I want to Play a ad that started

2872
02:38:53,800 --> 02:38:56,920
Speaker 9: running on TV and online about two weeks ago. This

2873
02:38:57,000 --> 02:38:58,880
Speaker 9: is one of his less personal ads, right, like as

2874
02:38:58,879 --> 02:39:00,640
Speaker 9: opposed to his ads where he's like talking around New

2875
02:39:00,760 --> 02:39:03,880
Speaker 9: York talking to people, like addressing straight to camera, that

2876
02:39:03,959 --> 02:39:05,480
Speaker 9: kind of stuff, which is kind of in the staple

2877
02:39:05,520 --> 02:39:08,160
Speaker 9: of his campaign. So like, this ad is not that

2878
02:39:08,280 --> 02:39:10,960
Speaker 9: it is more like a classic political ad, but I

2879
02:39:10,959 --> 02:39:14,959
Speaker 9: think it still hits really hard. And this one like

2880
02:39:15,400 --> 02:39:18,400
Speaker 9: kind of brain wormed itself. Into my head because of

2881
02:39:18,440 --> 02:39:21,840
Speaker 9: how like concise it is, and it hits so many

2882
02:39:21,879 --> 02:39:25,039
Speaker 9: things that even because of the last like general election,

2883
02:39:25,120 --> 02:39:28,440
Speaker 9: right like the twenty twenty four presidential It reflects the

2884
02:39:28,480 --> 02:39:30,320
Speaker 9: things that a lot of voters are concerned about, which

2885
02:39:30,360 --> 02:39:32,840
Speaker 9: is affordability, even if that means they will vote against

2886
02:39:32,879 --> 02:39:36,039
Speaker 9: their interests and vote in support of these like crazy tariffs.

2887
02:39:36,360 --> 02:39:38,960
Speaker 9: But I'm going to play this thirty second ad here.

2888
02:39:39,720 --> 02:39:41,520
Speaker 5: There is a myth about this city.

2889
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:45,080
Speaker 8: It's the lie that life has to be hard in

2890
02:39:45,120 --> 02:39:48,320
Speaker 8: New York. I believe we can guarantee cheaper groceries, we

2891
02:39:48,360 --> 02:39:51,240
Speaker 8: can raise the minimum wage, we can freeze the rent

2892
02:39:51,240 --> 02:39:51,720
Speaker 8: for more.

2893
02:39:51,600 --> 02:39:53,320
Speaker 5: Than two million tenants and.

2894
02:39:53,320 --> 02:39:57,360
Speaker 8: Build hundreds of thousands of affordable homes. It city government's

2895
02:39:57,480 --> 02:40:01,520
Speaker 8: job to deliver that. We are done settling for less.

2896
02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:03,920
Speaker 5: Are you ready for a city we can.

2897
02:40:03,720 --> 02:40:05,680
Speaker 12: Afford a.

2898
02:40:08,040 --> 02:40:08,280
Speaker 5: Rising?

2899
02:40:08,320 --> 02:40:09,160
Speaker 1: Went Thromlicus.

2900
02:40:10,320 --> 02:40:12,280
Speaker 9: So that was the main app that's been going across

2901
02:40:12,360 --> 02:40:15,600
Speaker 9: TV the past two weeks. This is this is his

2902
02:40:15,720 --> 02:40:19,440
Speaker 9: like final final push, and it addresses this like a

2903
02:40:19,480 --> 02:40:21,640
Speaker 9: conception of New York that's definitely been in my mind

2904
02:40:21,640 --> 02:40:22,960
Speaker 9: ever since I was a kid. I always thought this

2905
02:40:23,040 --> 02:40:24,840
Speaker 9: is a thing you can only live in if you're

2906
02:40:24,879 --> 02:40:27,360
Speaker 9: you know, very rich, if you're well off, and like,

2907
02:40:27,920 --> 02:40:30,240
Speaker 9: upon visiting here for the first time, I just realized

2908
02:40:30,280 --> 02:40:31,920
Speaker 9: how much that isn't true, how much this is like

2909
02:40:31,959 --> 02:40:34,720
Speaker 9: actually a working class city. How many people keep this

2910
02:40:34,879 --> 02:40:38,640
Speaker 9: massive like concrete machine running who do not live in

2911
02:40:38,720 --> 02:40:41,920
Speaker 9: like a Manhattan pent house. Obviously, and yes it can

2912
02:40:41,959 --> 02:40:45,680
Speaker 9: be challenging, but we've like almost abandoned this place as

2913
02:40:45,680 --> 02:40:48,520
Speaker 9: like a zone of combat, as like a place to

2914
02:40:48,560 --> 02:40:52,400
Speaker 9: actually like build like an affordable, an affordable, stable life.

2915
02:40:52,640 --> 02:40:55,640
Speaker 9: And to see a candidate just directly address this is

2916
02:40:56,240 --> 02:41:00,480
Speaker 9: so invigorating. He ran on freezing the rent, free buses,

2917
02:41:00,520 --> 02:41:03,400
Speaker 9: a pilot program for city run grocery stores, free to

2918
02:41:03,440 --> 02:41:07,000
Speaker 9: low cost childcare, raising minimum wage, and he didn't cave

2919
02:41:07,200 --> 02:41:11,000
Speaker 9: or waiver on controversial issues, or apologize or redact for

2920
02:41:11,120 --> 02:41:14,480
Speaker 9: past statements. He got really good at deflecting when people

2921
02:41:14,600 --> 02:41:17,680
Speaker 9: asked him about like previous statements out about how you know,

2922
02:41:17,879 --> 02:41:21,600
Speaker 9: the NYPD is terrible. He did really good about moving

2923
02:41:21,600 --> 02:41:25,000
Speaker 9: towards talking about how NYPD should not be handling people

2924
02:41:25,080 --> 02:41:27,240
Speaker 9: in like mental health crises, how there should be other

2925
02:41:27,320 --> 02:41:30,240
Speaker 9: public safety workers who can help people in distress who

2926
02:41:30,320 --> 02:41:33,800
Speaker 9: are not the NYPD and just a very very slick

2927
02:41:33,879 --> 02:41:39,160
Speaker 9: job handling some like massive, massive amounts of anti woke attacks,

2928
02:41:39,280 --> 02:41:42,880
Speaker 9: referencing like the twenty twenty era of politics. Let's go

2929
02:41:42,920 --> 02:41:46,119
Speaker 9: on a break and then talk about his acceptance speech

2930
02:41:46,280 --> 02:42:02,679
Speaker 9: and the reaction from the National Democrat and Republican parties. Okay,

2931
02:42:03,080 --> 02:42:10,240
Speaker 9: we are so back. So the past few months, Democrats

2932
02:42:10,280 --> 02:42:13,120
Speaker 9: have been asking this question like, how do we how

2933
02:42:13,120 --> 02:42:15,400
Speaker 9: do we reach young voters, how do we reach the

2934
02:42:15,480 --> 02:42:18,879
Speaker 9: young white to male vote. We need like a Joe

2935
02:42:19,000 --> 02:42:20,920
Speaker 9: Rogan of the left, all these types of crazy things.

2936
02:42:21,440 --> 02:42:24,800
Speaker 9: And you had this guy Zord who started to get

2937
02:42:24,840 --> 02:42:29,280
Speaker 9: massively popular with young people, including young young men, and

2938
02:42:29,560 --> 02:42:33,039
Speaker 9: that you saw this entire party mobilized to stop him,

2939
02:42:33,120 --> 02:42:37,080
Speaker 9: to suppress any any movement that Zora was able to make.

2940
02:42:37,160 --> 02:42:40,879
Speaker 5: And David Hogg, who is currently also being.

2941
02:42:40,879 --> 02:42:45,520
Speaker 9: Rap fucked by the Democratic National Committee, has been campaigning

2942
02:42:45,560 --> 02:42:48,480
Speaker 9: with Zoran the past few weeks, and he he said

2943
02:42:48,520 --> 02:42:50,720
Speaker 9: a few days ago, quote, the same establishment that is

2944
02:42:50,720 --> 02:42:53,120
Speaker 9: spending millions to destroy Zoron will say in a few

2945
02:42:53,120 --> 02:42:55,200
Speaker 9: months that we need to spend millions on polling and

2946
02:42:55,240 --> 02:42:58,920
Speaker 9: testing to win back young people. Open your goddamn eyes.

2947
02:42:59,320 --> 02:43:03,520
Speaker 9: It's free and yeah, he's right, this is the solution.

2948
02:43:03,640 --> 02:43:05,200
Speaker 9: The solution is staring them in the face and they

2949
02:43:05,240 --> 02:43:06,560
Speaker 9: were wanting to stop it.

2950
02:43:06,680 --> 02:43:09,200
Speaker 12: Yep, young people are begging you to co opt them,

2951
02:43:09,240 --> 02:43:11,520
Speaker 12: and they won't do it because they know what they

2952
02:43:11,520 --> 02:43:14,240
Speaker 12: would rather have Nazis and one percent higher taxes.

2953
02:43:14,400 --> 02:43:16,160
Speaker 5: They want to be co opted.

2954
02:43:16,760 --> 02:43:19,800
Speaker 9: And like actually fight for something, like actually have something

2955
02:43:19,840 --> 02:43:23,200
Speaker 9: to strive for, and like that's something that the Democrats

2956
02:43:23,240 --> 02:43:26,480
Speaker 9: have been so resistant to the past eight years. Like

2957
02:43:26,560 --> 02:43:30,080
Speaker 9: even even Joe Biden's campaign wasn't like fighting for anything,

2958
02:43:30,160 --> 02:43:33,200
Speaker 9: it was to like return to normal. Kamenthris's campaign wasn't

2959
02:43:33,240 --> 02:43:35,039
Speaker 9: really fighting for anything either. It was just to stop

2960
02:43:35,080 --> 02:43:38,039
Speaker 9: Donald Trump. And this is like this campaign wasn't just

2961
02:43:38,080 --> 02:43:41,080
Speaker 9: about beating Cuomo. It was also about like envisioning an

2962
02:43:41,120 --> 02:43:45,360
Speaker 9: actually positive future of the city. And I was legitimately

2963
02:43:45,400 --> 02:43:49,000
Speaker 9: surprised that Cuomo conceded so early on. In his speech,

2964
02:43:49,040 --> 02:43:51,400
Speaker 9: he said, quote, tonight was not our night, Tonight is

2965
02:43:51,480 --> 02:43:53,039
Speaker 9: his night. He deserved it.

2966
02:43:53,360 --> 02:43:54,080
Speaker 5: He won.

2967
02:43:55,200 --> 02:43:57,680
Speaker 9: And from the moves that Komo's making, it seems like

2968
02:43:57,720 --> 02:44:00,200
Speaker 9: he's probably not going to run as an independent in

2969
02:44:00,240 --> 02:44:03,400
Speaker 9: the general like he maybe have been planning to if

2970
02:44:03,400 --> 02:44:06,040
Speaker 9: it was closer. It does not seem to be going

2971
02:44:06,120 --> 02:44:08,520
Speaker 9: that direction. It seems like he's kind of realized that

2972
02:44:08,640 --> 02:44:10,400
Speaker 9: his career is finished.

2973
02:44:10,520 --> 02:44:15,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, he got rolled. Go back to the suburbs. Motherfucker.

2974
02:44:16,320 --> 02:44:21,680
Speaker 9: Ugh Chuck Schumer called Soharan Wednesday morning and posted quote,

2975
02:44:21,720 --> 02:44:23,920
Speaker 9: I've known Zora Mamdnnie since we were together to provide

2976
02:44:23,920 --> 02:44:26,440
Speaker 9: a debt relief for thousands of leaguered taxi drivers and

2977
02:44:26,480 --> 02:44:30,359
Speaker 9: fought to stop a fracked gas plant in a Storia.

2978
02:44:30,520 --> 02:44:32,880
Speaker 9: He ran an impressive campaign that connected with New Yorkers

2979
02:44:32,879 --> 02:44:35,879
Speaker 9: about affordability, fairness, and opportunity. I spoke with him this

2980
02:44:35,959 --> 02:44:39,600
Speaker 9: morning and I'm looking forward to getting together soon. Alkim

2981
02:44:39,680 --> 02:44:43,480
Speaker 9: Jeffries said, congratulations is Zar Mumdanni on a decisive primary victory.

2982
02:44:43,480 --> 02:44:47,040
Speaker 9: As having been, Mumdannie ran a strong campaign that relentlessly

2983
02:44:47,080 --> 02:44:49,600
Speaker 9: focused on the economy and bringing down the high cost

2984
02:44:49,600 --> 02:44:51,480
Speaker 9: of living in New York City. We spoke this morning

2985
02:44:51,480 --> 02:44:54,959
Speaker 9: and planned to meet in central Brooklyn shortly. The top

2986
02:44:55,040 --> 02:44:56,840
Speaker 9: dogs are bowing down.

2987
02:44:57,320 --> 02:44:59,720
Speaker 12: All these Chuck Schub retreats are just straight up Please

2988
02:44:59,760 --> 02:45:02,280
Speaker 12: don't primary me because AOC is going to beat him

2989
02:45:02,280 --> 02:45:02,840
Speaker 12: by thirty.

2990
02:45:03,040 --> 02:45:05,040
Speaker 9: He's gonna get primary like he's done. Who did you

2991
02:45:05,080 --> 02:45:10,160
Speaker 9: get obliterated? But I was expecting slightly more resistance, And

2992
02:45:10,240 --> 02:45:13,120
Speaker 9: it seems like parts of the Democrats have like realized

2993
02:45:13,160 --> 02:45:14,920
Speaker 9: that this actually is the future of the party now

2994
02:45:14,920 --> 02:45:16,280
Speaker 9: and there's no use fighting anymore.

2995
02:45:16,360 --> 02:45:17,160
Speaker 5: This is the way to go.

2996
02:45:17,520 --> 02:45:19,440
Speaker 9: Yes, it goes against what all like the consultants are saying,

2997
02:45:19,480 --> 02:45:22,080
Speaker 9: right to be like, you know, the Democrats went too woke,

2998
02:45:22,120 --> 02:45:23,200
Speaker 9: we went too far to the left.

2999
02:45:23,200 --> 02:45:24,280
Speaker 5: We have to return to the center.

3000
02:45:24,320 --> 02:45:26,480
Speaker 9: Even though that's what we've been doing for the Democratic

3001
02:45:26,480 --> 02:45:29,560
Speaker 9: Party for eight years. This election shows how much of

3002
02:45:29,600 --> 02:45:33,320
Speaker 9: that is like a complete bullshit lie that no, it's

3003
02:45:33,360 --> 02:45:35,560
Speaker 9: not about going too far left, it's about actually wanting

3004
02:45:35,560 --> 02:45:38,800
Speaker 9: to fight for something real. And I'm kind of surprised

3005
02:45:38,800 --> 02:45:42,400
Speaker 9: that the these these two top dogs are giving in

3006
02:45:42,640 --> 02:45:44,279
Speaker 9: to the zmentum.

3007
02:45:44,640 --> 02:45:46,600
Speaker 12: I think also, and this is the thing like some

3008
02:45:46,680 --> 02:45:48,960
Speaker 12: one of my friends brought up, is that like mom

3009
02:45:49,040 --> 02:45:54,920
Speaker 12: Downy like isn't really like aoc no, no, no, this

3010
02:45:55,160 --> 02:45:57,520
Speaker 12: is something like very very important for like New York politics,

3011
02:45:57,520 --> 02:46:01,280
Speaker 12: which is like he's not like I'll be politically he is,

3012
02:46:01,320 --> 02:46:04,560
Speaker 12: but like he's not a complete outsider to New York politics.

3013
02:46:04,600 --> 02:46:07,320
Speaker 12: All these people know him they know him from like

3014
02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:11,400
Speaker 12: legislative shit right, and he has like relationships with them

3015
02:46:11,600 --> 02:46:13,400
Speaker 12: in a way that would be very very different if

3016
02:46:13,600 --> 02:46:15,400
Speaker 12: if he was, like I don't know, just like some

3017
02:46:15,560 --> 02:46:17,640
Speaker 12: like a complete outsider who'd been like a protest leader

3018
02:46:17,720 --> 02:46:17,880
Speaker 12: or whatever.

3019
02:46:18,480 --> 02:46:19,920
Speaker 5: He has he has proven himself.

3020
02:46:20,240 --> 02:46:23,280
Speaker 12: He has like tense relations but like yeah, but like

3021
02:46:23,400 --> 02:46:26,360
Speaker 12: he like these people know him, and that's something that

3022
02:46:26,400 --> 02:46:28,720
Speaker 12: can matter a lot in terms of like how these

3023
02:46:28,760 --> 02:46:31,920
Speaker 12: reactions play out and in terms of like how desperate

3024
02:46:31,959 --> 02:46:33,120
Speaker 12: they are to stop him.

3025
02:46:33,360 --> 02:46:35,680
Speaker 9: The Attorney General of New York was making like Obama

3026
02:46:35,720 --> 02:46:38,120
Speaker 9: two thousand and eight references, being like this, this was

3027
02:46:38,160 --> 02:46:41,280
Speaker 9: the energy in New York last night. And I wasn't

3028
02:46:41,560 --> 02:46:45,320
Speaker 9: around for the two thousand and eight presidential election. I

3029
02:46:45,320 --> 02:46:47,600
Speaker 9: mean I was alive, I just don't remember because I

3030
02:46:47,680 --> 02:46:52,279
Speaker 9: was also in Canada. But it did feel pretty exuberant

3031
02:46:52,440 --> 02:46:56,600
Speaker 9: last night walking around Brooklyn. And like this absolutely still

3032
02:46:56,680 --> 02:46:59,400
Speaker 9: is like a rejection of the Democratic Party establishment. That's

3033
02:46:59,400 --> 02:47:02,440
Speaker 9: what these results show. And we have to like claim

3034
02:47:02,959 --> 02:47:07,080
Speaker 9: a firm victory now, like hard line with with with

3035
02:47:07,080 --> 02:47:09,880
Speaker 9: with such a strong fist that like any potential fuckery

3036
02:47:09,879 --> 02:47:12,200
Speaker 9: in the future, whether it's from like other Dems or

3037
02:47:12,200 --> 02:47:15,440
Speaker 9: from the Republicans, like from Trump right, like they're obviously

3038
02:47:15,520 --> 02:47:18,560
Speaker 9: willing to arrest the New York City controller. So like

3039
02:47:18,600 --> 02:47:21,760
Speaker 9: any potential fuckery needs to look so much worse. People

3040
02:47:21,879 --> 02:47:24,320
Speaker 9: have to close ranks around zor On like immediately and

3041
02:47:24,360 --> 02:47:27,200
Speaker 9: like strengthen him. He needs to be like the face,

3042
02:47:27,320 --> 02:47:29,600
Speaker 9: like if they're going to take this guy down, he

3043
02:47:29,680 --> 02:47:32,320
Speaker 9: needs to be like the face of everything for like

3044
02:47:32,440 --> 02:47:33,599
Speaker 9: the next while.

3045
02:47:33,720 --> 02:47:38,400
Speaker 12: We're sort of seeing like slightly smaller sharks, like trailing

3046
02:47:38,440 --> 02:47:40,199
Speaker 12: around the wake of the shark. Like you were talking

3047
02:47:40,200 --> 02:47:42,960
Speaker 12: about the Democratic Turnyan General Leatitia James, who gave a

3048
02:47:43,000 --> 02:47:45,400
Speaker 12: really really compelling speech, like I actually think she's like

3049
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:48,360
Speaker 12: a better speaker.

3050
02:47:47,440 --> 02:47:49,440
Speaker 5: Than any of the people involved in this race.

3051
02:47:49,600 --> 02:47:52,600
Speaker 12: And she is like she has one hundred percent primary

3052
02:47:52,640 --> 02:47:54,560
Speaker 12: in the governor, like not one hundred percent, but like

3053
02:47:54,800 --> 02:47:57,920
Speaker 12: probably primary in the governor next year. Like this is

3054
02:47:58,320 --> 02:48:00,160
Speaker 12: you know, like people, people are sort of people have

3055
02:48:00,240 --> 02:48:03,280
Speaker 12: been flocking around this for a while and I think,

3056
02:48:04,040 --> 02:48:06,000
Speaker 12: I don't know, this is this is some real doesn't

3057
02:48:06,000 --> 02:48:07,680
Speaker 12: take a weatherman to see which way the winds are

3058
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:10,800
Speaker 12: blowing shit Like they are, Yeah, they are, they are.

3059
02:48:10,840 --> 02:48:14,040
Speaker 12: They are living in fear they are, they are bending

3060
02:48:14,040 --> 02:48:16,080
Speaker 12: the knee, they are et cetera, et cetera.

3061
02:48:18,000 --> 02:48:18,600
Speaker 5: Very funny.

3062
02:48:19,000 --> 02:48:21,440
Speaker 9: And now the Republican Party is going to be on

3063
02:48:21,480 --> 02:48:24,400
Speaker 9: the attack. The baton's being passed from establishment Dems to

3064
02:48:24,440 --> 02:48:26,000
Speaker 9: the Republicans to.

3065
02:48:27,800 --> 02:48:29,039
Speaker 5: Try to take down.

3066
02:48:29,120 --> 02:48:31,200
Speaker 9: Zoron, or at least paint Zoron as this new like

3067
02:48:31,320 --> 02:48:34,680
Speaker 9: radical face of the Democratic Party, like like racism levels

3068
02:48:34,680 --> 02:48:36,920
Speaker 9: are gonna They're gonna reach never before seen heights. It's

3069
02:48:36,959 --> 02:48:38,720
Speaker 9: gonna be like Post nine to eleven all over again.

3070
02:48:39,280 --> 02:48:42,720
Speaker 9: The National Republican Congression Committee is already calling Zoron the

3071
02:48:42,760 --> 02:48:44,320
Speaker 9: new face of the Democratic.

3072
02:48:43,840 --> 02:48:46,440
Speaker 5: Party, which yeah, he should be.

3073
02:48:46,640 --> 02:48:49,600
Speaker 9: That's not like fucking bring it if you want, just

3074
02:48:49,720 --> 02:48:51,920
Speaker 9: like a breath of fresh air, I would recommend watching

3075
02:48:51,959 --> 02:48:55,960
Speaker 9: some financial news from from Wednesday morning.

3076
02:48:56,240 --> 02:49:01,080
Speaker 12: Oh it's so good, Hot commy summer Baby, hot commed Sumner.

3077
02:49:00,840 --> 02:49:03,600
Speaker 5: Who I Am.

3078
02:49:03,920 --> 02:49:06,760
Speaker 9: Executions in Central Park are about to begin.

3079
02:49:06,920 --> 02:49:10,680
Speaker 12: The Workers Republic is established, the Commonwealth of Labor rules.

3080
02:49:11,720 --> 02:49:15,000
Speaker 9: We're waiting for Chairman mcdani to make the final call.

3081
02:49:15,520 --> 02:49:16,720
Speaker 9: Lists are being made.

3082
02:49:16,920 --> 02:49:24,120
Speaker 5: Only you can ford the Soviets seize your workplaces. At

3083
02:49:24,160 --> 02:49:27,080
Speaker 5: the time is now. I do want to play a

3084
02:49:27,080 --> 02:49:28,760
Speaker 5: brief click from c NBC.

3085
02:49:29,320 --> 02:49:32,160
Speaker 9: If you've seen where what Batman is up against in

3086
02:49:32,240 --> 02:49:37,160
Speaker 9: Gotham and what the guy running for mayor is up against.

3087
02:49:36,760 --> 02:49:37,640
Speaker 5: That's what it reminds you.

3088
02:49:37,959 --> 02:49:40,760
Speaker 9: They're taking Wall streeters and make him walk out onto

3089
02:49:40,800 --> 02:49:43,840
Speaker 9: the ice in the East river as and hope and

3090
02:49:44,160 --> 02:49:45,039
Speaker 9: then they fall through.

3091
02:49:45,320 --> 02:49:47,879
Speaker 2: I mean there is a class warfare.

3092
02:49:47,440 --> 02:49:51,480
Speaker 5: That's so what's happened here? I think it's a rich type.

3093
02:49:52,520 --> 02:49:58,760
Speaker 5: There's a division within the Demo. Whoa, that's right. There

3094
02:49:58,840 --> 02:50:03,320
Speaker 5: is a division. The revelation baby.

3095
02:50:02,920 --> 02:50:05,800
Speaker 9: Eat the Wrench. There is a division of the Democratic Party.

3096
02:50:06,120 --> 02:50:09,600
Speaker 5: Walked them out onto the ice. We're sending him onto

3097
02:50:09,600 --> 02:50:10,040
Speaker 5: the ice.

3098
02:50:10,959 --> 02:50:13,560
Speaker 9: Is all on hand in hand with the Bain and

3099
02:50:13,879 --> 02:50:16,119
Speaker 9: Chilly and Murphy are gonna be.

3100
02:50:16,080 --> 02:50:18,480
Speaker 5: Sending them on to the hunts and the spirit of

3101
02:50:18,560 --> 02:50:22,560
Speaker 5: occupy lives. Oh my god.

3102
02:50:23,920 --> 02:50:29,280
Speaker 9: Bill Ackman Cromo and Trump Backer said quote, I was

3103
02:50:29,320 --> 02:50:32,160
Speaker 9: a bit depressed when I woke up this morning, but

3104
02:50:32,200 --> 02:50:34,360
Speaker 9: now I'm optimistic. I have a great idea on New

3105
02:50:34,440 --> 02:50:35,920
Speaker 9: York City, and I will share it as soon as

3106
02:50:35,959 --> 02:50:40,000
Speaker 9: I can. We are looking into legal issues. Good luck,

3107
02:50:40,200 --> 02:50:42,280
Speaker 9: good luck, Bill, have fun out there.

3108
02:50:44,440 --> 02:50:46,360
Speaker 5: Oh no, they're good. Wait, this is they're just gonna

3109
02:50:46,360 --> 02:50:49,320
Speaker 5: do persperas in Agane who cares. Oh no, bring it,

3110
02:50:49,640 --> 02:50:53,160
Speaker 5: bring it. I will say like this this coverage, like

3111
02:50:53,520 --> 02:50:54,680
Speaker 5: I like, people don't.

3112
02:50:54,560 --> 02:50:56,240
Speaker 12: Understand how one hints coverage is going to be. Like

3113
02:50:56,280 --> 02:50:59,480
Speaker 12: in Chicago when when when Brandon Johnson won the election,

3114
02:50:59,480 --> 02:51:03,320
Speaker 12: Brandon john is like significantly to the right of mom Donnie.

3115
02:51:03,600 --> 02:51:07,119
Speaker 12: Right when Brandon Johnson won the election, the Chicago press

3116
02:51:07,280 --> 02:51:10,039
Speaker 12: went so insane that all of them pretended to be

3117
02:51:10,120 --> 02:51:14,599
Speaker 12: pro immigrant. Oh yeah, Like, do you understand how unhinged

3118
02:51:15,360 --> 02:51:17,360
Speaker 12: the press has to get here because like like one

3119
02:51:17,400 --> 02:51:19,000
Speaker 12: of Johnson things that he was like fucking over like

3120
02:51:19,040 --> 02:51:21,240
Speaker 12: immigrants here, and he was like this immigrant the shelters

3121
02:51:21,280 --> 02:51:23,360
Speaker 12: are putting put in where substandard and people are getting sick,

3122
02:51:23,520 --> 02:51:26,080
Speaker 12: and like we had the best coverage of immigration issues

3123
02:51:26,160 --> 02:51:29,240
Speaker 12: under Biden in the country because specifically that was the

3124
02:51:29,240 --> 02:51:30,320
Speaker 12: thing the reason to attack him.

3125
02:51:30,320 --> 02:51:32,840
Speaker 9: I'm super curious what the Times is gonna do because

3126
02:51:32,879 --> 02:51:36,039
Speaker 9: like they've also pulled out all the stops the past

3127
02:51:36,200 --> 02:51:38,000
Speaker 9: the past few weeks to try to to try to

3128
02:51:38,040 --> 02:51:38,760
Speaker 9: stop Zoran.

3129
02:51:39,120 --> 02:51:40,879
Speaker 5: It's gonna be unhinged.

3130
02:51:41,200 --> 02:51:43,720
Speaker 9: The winds blowing in his direction now though, like I

3131
02:51:43,959 --> 02:51:44,959
Speaker 9: don't know what they're gonna do.

3132
02:51:45,360 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 12: I don't know, Like I think that specific class of

3133
02:51:47,760 --> 02:51:49,440
Speaker 12: people is just going to hate him until the end,

3134
02:51:49,920 --> 02:51:52,320
Speaker 12: Like I think. I think, like like David Brooks is

3135
02:51:52,360 --> 02:51:54,000
Speaker 12: going to be writing college about how there are like

3136
02:51:54,080 --> 02:51:58,160
Speaker 12: pagrams going on like on this streets, Like Brett Stevens

3137
02:51:58,240 --> 02:52:00,520
Speaker 12: is gonna be like I don't know, they're going to

3138
02:52:00,560 --> 02:52:02,960
Speaker 12: go to call it like super Lebanon, Like it's gonna

3139
02:52:02,959 --> 02:52:06,200
Speaker 12: be like levels of unhinged no one's ever seen before.

3140
02:52:06,920 --> 02:52:10,480
Speaker 9: Now, speaking of the Times, Obama's tree strategist was quoted

3141
02:52:10,480 --> 02:52:12,720
Speaker 9: in a New York Times article Wednesday morning, quote, there

3142
02:52:12,840 --> 02:52:15,640
Speaker 9: is no doubt that Trump and Republicans will try and

3143
02:52:15,720 --> 02:52:17,959
Speaker 9: seize on him as a kind of exemplar of what

3144
02:52:18,000 --> 02:52:21,560
Speaker 9: the Democratic Party stands for. The thing is, he seems

3145
02:52:21,560 --> 02:52:25,320
Speaker 9: both principled and agile and deft enough to confront those

3146
02:52:25,360 --> 02:52:29,920
Speaker 9: sorts of confrontational plays. I do want to read off

3147
02:52:30,040 --> 02:52:35,439
Speaker 9: from a Fox News screenshot this morning, showcasing Zoron's horrific,

3148
02:52:35,840 --> 02:52:42,120
Speaker 9: terrifying communist platform, which includes housing freezing rent, building afford

3149
02:52:42,160 --> 02:52:47,840
Speaker 9: level housing, creating city owned grocery stores whoa fair, free buses,

3150
02:52:48,160 --> 02:52:51,360
Speaker 9: raising the minimum wage to thirty dollars by twenty thirty

3151
02:52:51,600 --> 02:52:57,520
Speaker 9: and LGBTQIA plus protections expanding and protecting gender affirming care citywide,

3152
02:52:57,760 --> 02:53:01,520
Speaker 9: making NYC and lgbtq a I plus the sanctuary city

3153
02:53:01,800 --> 02:53:08,120
Speaker 9: and trump proofing NYC to end ice cooperation. Hell yeah,

3154
02:53:08,120 --> 02:53:10,040
Speaker 9: thank you, thank you Fox News for that, for that

3155
02:53:10,160 --> 02:53:11,600
Speaker 9: great list of reasons.

3156
02:53:11,680 --> 02:53:14,760
Speaker 5: It's to like Zaran Mamdani, I think.

3157
02:53:14,800 --> 02:53:16,840
Speaker 12: I think I think it's actually genuinely really important. She's

3158
02:53:16,879 --> 02:53:19,520
Speaker 12: like the only Democratic candidate in fucking ages who actively

3159
02:53:19,520 --> 02:53:22,480
Speaker 12: campaigned on like putting more funding in the trans healthcare

3160
02:53:22,480 --> 02:53:24,000
Speaker 12: like sixty five million dollars of funding.

3161
02:53:24,200 --> 02:53:26,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, fucking being pro trans wins.

3162
02:53:26,560 --> 02:53:29,280
Speaker 12: Being anti trans gets your ass kicked back to the suburbs.

3163
02:53:29,280 --> 02:53:32,080
Speaker 5: Like fucking Cuomo, eat shit, eat shit.

3164
02:53:32,520 --> 02:53:36,480
Speaker 12: Your Democratic strategists fuck off and die eat shit. You

3165
02:53:36,520 --> 02:53:38,879
Speaker 12: will be the ones in the fucking graves that you

3166
02:53:38,879 --> 02:53:43,600
Speaker 12: were digging for us, Like, fuck off, we have dunk

3167
02:53:43,680 --> 02:53:44,920
Speaker 12: your electoral grapes.

3168
02:53:45,200 --> 02:53:46,920
Speaker 9: This is why when I was at this like trans

3169
02:53:47,000 --> 02:53:50,480
Speaker 9: open mic at Metropolitan last night, like the whole room

3170
02:53:50,640 --> 02:53:53,920
Speaker 9: just like lit up in cheers, because yeah, like we've

3171
02:53:53,920 --> 02:53:55,840
Speaker 9: been we've been dealing with the past like six months.

3172
02:53:55,879 --> 02:53:58,280
Speaker 9: This idea that like trans writes is like the thing

3173
02:53:58,320 --> 02:54:02,160
Speaker 9: that's killing Democratic paulics and fucking know it isn't.

3174
02:54:02,760 --> 02:54:05,760
Speaker 12: Yeah, and Quo Quoto Cuoto read as a fucking transphobe

3175
02:54:05,760 --> 02:54:08,640
Speaker 12: because he is, and it didn't work. This is the

3176
02:54:09,120 --> 02:54:13,040
Speaker 12: joint feminist transgender victory over the forces of the turf

3177
02:54:13,160 --> 02:54:13,920
Speaker 12: sex predator.

3178
02:54:14,720 --> 02:54:15,480
Speaker 5: Fuck them.

3179
02:54:16,200 --> 02:54:17,600
Speaker 9: To wrap up my stuff here, I do want to

3180
02:54:17,640 --> 02:54:21,400
Speaker 9: play one minute from Zorn's acceptance speech, which I think

3181
02:54:22,000 --> 02:54:23,400
Speaker 9: uh speaks for itself.

3182
02:54:25,360 --> 02:54:29,840
Speaker 5: And it's where the mayor will use their power to.

3183
02:54:29,920 --> 02:54:39,560
Speaker 14: Reject Donald Trump's fascism, to stop mass ice agents from

3184
02:54:39,600 --> 02:54:41,240
Speaker 14: deporting our naghbor.

3185
02:54:43,800 --> 02:54:45,320
Speaker 5: I to covered our.

3186
02:54:45,200 --> 02:54:53,160
Speaker 8: City as a model for the Democratic Party, a party

3187
02:54:54,200 --> 02:55:02,039
Speaker 8: where we fight for working people with no apology. A

3188
02:55:02,160 --> 02:55:06,760
Speaker 8: life of dignity should not be reserved for a fortunate fuel.

3189
02:55:08,120 --> 02:55:11,640
Speaker 8: It should be one that city government guarantees for each

3190
02:55:11,760 --> 02:55:18,600
Speaker 8: and every New Yorker. If this campaign has demonstrated anything

3191
02:55:19,080 --> 02:55:24,640
Speaker 8: to the world, it is that our dreams can become reality.

3192
02:55:28,040 --> 02:55:30,720
Speaker 9: I sure hope this is the model for the Democratic

3193
02:55:30,800 --> 02:55:34,520
Speaker 9: Party going forward. Via you wanted to close on a

3194
02:55:34,560 --> 02:55:36,160
Speaker 9: sad note.

3195
02:55:36,760 --> 02:55:39,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, I was really depressed this entire night because I

3196
02:55:39,680 --> 02:55:42,720
Speaker 12: remember feeling a lot like this in like twenty twenty

3197
02:55:42,760 --> 02:55:44,039
Speaker 12: three in Chicago.

3198
02:55:44,360 --> 02:55:47,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, because this happened in Chicago. Yeah, well not this,

3199
02:55:47,360 --> 02:55:49,720
Speaker 5: but a version of this. Yeah.

3200
02:55:49,959 --> 02:55:53,080
Speaker 12: Like obviously Brandon Johnson was like significantly to the right

3201
02:55:53,640 --> 02:55:56,280
Speaker 12: of like everything that's been happening in New York. Like

3202
02:55:56,320 --> 02:55:58,039
Speaker 12: not he wasn't like a right winger, but he was

3203
02:55:58,120 --> 02:56:00,560
Speaker 12: like you know, like the local DSA had conflict with

3204
02:56:00,600 --> 02:56:02,640
Speaker 12: him from other stuff. But like, you know, I remember

3205
02:56:02,760 --> 02:56:05,800
Speaker 12: feeling like this and then one year later, like swat

3206
02:56:05,800 --> 02:56:08,640
Speaker 12: teams like deployed by the mayor that.

3207
02:56:08,600 --> 02:56:09,640
Speaker 5: He claimed he didn't send.

3208
02:56:09,680 --> 02:56:12,040
Speaker 12: We're beating up art students outside like literally in the

3209
02:56:12,080 --> 02:56:14,879
Speaker 12: middle of downtown for trying to have a Palestine encampment.

3210
02:56:15,680 --> 02:56:19,360
Speaker 12: And you know, like my bitter cynical personally got rap

3211
02:56:19,400 --> 02:56:20,879
Speaker 12: fucked by the mayor's office.

3212
02:56:21,080 --> 02:56:24,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, like Citicis, I'm on, this is like it's gonna

3213
02:56:24,720 --> 02:56:26,160
Speaker 5: be weird. There's gonna be a lot of shit that

3214
02:56:26,280 --> 02:56:27,360
Speaker 5: sucks this.

3215
02:56:27,360 --> 02:56:31,480
Speaker 9: This guy is like advocated defunding the police and is

3216
02:56:31,520 --> 02:56:34,119
Speaker 9: attacked like the NYPPD for years. Yeah, and now he's

3217
02:56:34,120 --> 02:56:36,400
Speaker 9: intensively going to be in charge of it, and he's

3218
02:56:36,560 --> 02:56:38,760
Speaker 9: he's not gonna be able to abolish the NYPD like

3219
02:56:38,800 --> 02:56:41,840
Speaker 9: that that's not gonna happen. No, So there's gonna be

3220
02:56:41,879 --> 02:56:45,360
Speaker 9: a degree of like you know, moratl like crisis. He's

3221
02:56:45,400 --> 02:56:47,200
Speaker 9: gonna have to work against some of the things that

3222
02:56:47,200 --> 02:56:48,400
Speaker 9: he stated he believes in.

3223
02:56:48,879 --> 02:56:51,039
Speaker 12: Yeah, And on a structural level, there's there's a really

3224
02:56:51,080 --> 02:56:53,879
Speaker 12: significant problem here, which is that, like the moment you

3225
02:56:54,200 --> 02:56:58,200
Speaker 12: become the leader of a capitalist city, right, it becomes

3226
02:56:58,240 --> 02:57:00,880
Speaker 12: your job to keep the economy running. And the problem

3227
02:57:00,959 --> 02:57:04,279
Speaker 12: is that like keeping keeping a capitalist economy running means

3228
02:57:04,280 --> 02:57:07,880
Speaker 12: you have to your job is now maintaining growth for

3229
02:57:07,879 --> 02:57:10,400
Speaker 12: for this economy, right, and maintaining growth through the economy

3230
02:57:10,400 --> 02:57:12,720
Speaker 12: means figuring out how how to have corporation continue to

3231
02:57:12,760 --> 02:57:16,720
Speaker 12: make more and more money. And that's not compatible with

3232
02:57:16,920 --> 02:57:20,560
Speaker 12: being a socialist. And everyone who has ever tried to

3233
02:57:20,680 --> 02:57:25,200
Speaker 12: like deal with this crisis you either like you have

3234
02:57:25,240 --> 02:57:29,480
Speaker 12: two pass it's like one you become a capitalist, right,

3235
02:57:29,520 --> 02:57:31,960
Speaker 12: and we see this fucking all over the place, right,

3236
02:57:32,040 --> 02:57:34,879
Speaker 12: it's like you know, it's it's it's Barcelona and Caboo

3237
02:57:34,879 --> 02:57:36,560
Speaker 12: coming into power, which is like this sort of like

3238
02:57:37,000 --> 02:57:39,880
Speaker 12: left wing council kind of like books to Nite thing,

3239
02:57:39,920 --> 02:57:42,039
Speaker 12: and then they immediately start like evicting migrates right or

3240
02:57:42,040 --> 02:57:45,520
Speaker 12: two or two, you actually do the thing. You do

3241
02:57:45,640 --> 02:57:48,520
Speaker 12: the thing you do, you do the actual socialism, and

3242
02:57:48,879 --> 02:57:50,680
Speaker 12: we fucking we like you know this is this is

3243
02:57:50,720 --> 02:57:53,080
Speaker 12: the beginning of the end of fascism in a way

3244
02:57:53,120 --> 02:57:54,920
Speaker 12: where we see a fundamental change in the structure of

3245
02:57:54,920 --> 02:57:57,760
Speaker 12: our economic system and that can be the outcome of this,

3246
02:57:58,040 --> 02:58:00,720
Speaker 12: but we have to build it, not him, like.

3247
02:58:00,959 --> 02:58:02,680
Speaker 9: And I think the most he's gonna be able to

3248
02:58:02,680 --> 02:58:05,280
Speaker 9: do is provide a bit of a safer zone for

3249
02:58:05,400 --> 02:58:06,920
Speaker 9: us to operate in in New York.

3250
02:58:07,160 --> 02:58:07,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3251
02:58:07,560 --> 02:58:11,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, he's going to be introducing more like social democratic policies,

3252
02:58:11,879 --> 02:58:15,200
Speaker 9: Like he's gonna make the city like financially easier to

3253
02:58:15,240 --> 02:58:18,080
Speaker 9: live in. Yeah, things will suck less, which is good.

3254
02:58:18,280 --> 02:58:20,000
Speaker 9: He is going to to the end of his power

3255
02:58:20,360 --> 02:58:21,879
Speaker 9: fight against Trump's.

3256
02:58:21,560 --> 02:58:23,400
Speaker 5: Efforts to deport your.

3257
02:58:23,280 --> 02:58:27,520
Speaker 9: Neighbors, and like, that is so much better than both

3258
02:58:27,600 --> 02:58:30,160
Speaker 9: what Cromo would do and Eric Adams, who is actively

3259
02:58:30,160 --> 02:58:32,600
Speaker 9: collaborating with the Trump administration. So this man's not going

3260
02:58:32,680 --> 02:58:35,480
Speaker 9: to actually be the least algae. He's not actually going

3261
02:58:35,560 --> 02:58:39,119
Speaker 9: to be the guy that ushers in the Red Revolution,

3262
02:58:39,160 --> 02:58:42,120
Speaker 9: which is not even something I necessarily want. But I

3263
02:58:42,160 --> 02:58:44,960
Speaker 9: think what he can do is make this an actually

3264
02:58:44,959 --> 02:58:47,760
Speaker 9: better place to live right now, and specifically make it

3265
02:58:47,800 --> 02:58:50,240
Speaker 9: a better place to live as the national politics in

3266
02:58:50,280 --> 02:58:54,120
Speaker 9: this country are controlled by a fascist and a cabinet

3267
02:58:54,240 --> 02:58:55,200
Speaker 9: full of fascists.

3268
02:58:55,800 --> 02:58:57,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, and he can make the largest city in the

3269
02:58:57,840 --> 02:59:01,080
Speaker 12: country the rock upon which the tide of fascism breaks and.

3270
02:59:01,000 --> 02:59:05,119
Speaker 9: That matters, that does well, that doesn't for us today,

3271
02:59:05,760 --> 02:59:07,039
Speaker 9: greatest city in the world.

3272
02:59:07,160 --> 02:59:09,080
Speaker 5: Cheer one point five Chinese City. Let's go.

3273
02:59:34,520 --> 02:59:37,840
Speaker 2: Oh, who's got ed?

3274
02:59:38,240 --> 02:59:40,040
Speaker 5: That's not how we start these episodes.

3275
02:59:40,080 --> 02:59:43,240
Speaker 2: Wow, that's how we're starting this one, Garrison, it's already begun.

3276
02:59:43,959 --> 02:59:49,440
Speaker 9: Welcome to Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening

3277
02:59:49,520 --> 02:59:51,920
Speaker 9: in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it

3278
02:59:51,959 --> 02:59:52,560
Speaker 9: means for you.

3279
02:59:53,640 --> 02:59:54,840
Speaker 2: That's right, motherfuckers.

3280
02:59:55,040 --> 02:59:57,840
Speaker 9: That's Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm also joined by

3281
02:59:57,879 --> 03:00:01,680
Speaker 9: Mia Wong and James Stout. This week we are covering

3282
03:00:02,200 --> 03:00:05,560
Speaker 9: the week of June eighteen to June twenty five.

3283
03:00:05,800 --> 03:00:09,080
Speaker 2: That's right, a good week where nothing but good things happened.

3284
03:00:09,680 --> 03:00:15,320
Speaker 2: Assuming you are someone who manufactures thirty pound gravity utilizing

3285
03:00:15,400 --> 03:00:17,000
Speaker 2: bunker busting bombs.

3286
03:00:16,760 --> 03:00:18,720
Speaker 5: Thirty pound that's quite a small one.

3287
03:00:18,520 --> 03:00:23,440
Speaker 2: Thirty thousand, thirty thousand, that's thirty thousand. Sorry. Anyway, we're

3288
03:00:23,440 --> 03:00:26,199
Speaker 2: talking about Iran. We're gonna start with Iran. We're gonna

3289
03:00:26,200 --> 03:00:28,320
Speaker 2: start with Iran's nuclear program, and I think we should start.

3290
03:00:28,360 --> 03:00:32,080
Speaker 2: We need to start by giving the kol Zone media

3291
03:00:32,200 --> 03:00:34,400
Speaker 2: cool kid's guide for how to enrich uranium.

3292
03:00:34,560 --> 03:00:38,680
Speaker 12: Oh no, I don't want to get arrested robbers, now, Mia,

3293
03:00:39,000 --> 03:00:42,080
Speaker 12: it's not illegal to tell people how to enrich uranium.

3294
03:00:42,320 --> 03:00:45,720
Speaker 2: Google will do it, and I assume they're correct. Robert,

3295
03:00:45,959 --> 03:00:48,560
Speaker 2: it is legal for white people to do this. I

3296
03:00:48,600 --> 03:00:49,800
Speaker 2: don't know if it's legal for.

3297
03:00:49,800 --> 03:00:50,640
Speaker 5: Me to do this.

3298
03:00:52,160 --> 03:00:56,120
Speaker 2: It's okay, it's okay, it's okay. Look, if I've learned

3299
03:00:56,160 --> 03:00:58,680
Speaker 2: one thing, it's that it's okay for white people to

3300
03:00:58,680 --> 03:01:00,920
Speaker 2: talk about any kind of bomb on the internet. So

3301
03:01:01,400 --> 03:01:04,160
Speaker 2: we'll be fine. I'll be fine. That's what matters, Robert.

3302
03:01:04,240 --> 03:01:08,560
Speaker 5: Do I have kidnapping insurance? Do we have an extraction

3303
03:01:08,720 --> 03:01:10,879
Speaker 5: team for me when I go to ice prints? We don't.

3304
03:01:11,840 --> 03:01:14,760
Speaker 2: We have an extraction team, but it's not the cool

3305
03:01:14,840 --> 03:01:18,840
Speaker 2: kind anyway. So let's talk about how to make nukes.

3306
03:01:18,840 --> 03:01:21,280
Speaker 2: Because one thing you'll constantly hear whenever the US or

3307
03:01:21,360 --> 03:01:23,760
Speaker 2: Israel talks about Iran's nuclear program, is that they're just

3308
03:01:24,000 --> 03:01:27,400
Speaker 2: three to eight months away, right or weeks away. This

3309
03:01:27,480 --> 03:01:29,520
Speaker 2: is what you'll hear sometimes just technically if you three

3310
03:01:29,520 --> 03:01:31,440
Speaker 2: months is a number of weeks away whatever.

3311
03:01:31,560 --> 03:01:34,120
Speaker 5: And they've been saying this for longer than I've been alive.

3312
03:01:36,160 --> 03:01:39,640
Speaker 2: Here's the thing, it's technically correct, not in a way

3313
03:01:39,640 --> 03:01:42,200
Speaker 2: that like is correct in the way they are trying

3314
03:01:42,240 --> 03:01:43,600
Speaker 2: to push it, but in a way that is like

3315
03:01:43,680 --> 03:01:47,640
Speaker 2: literally correct, which is that Iran paused their nuclear program

3316
03:01:47,680 --> 03:01:50,560
Speaker 2: in two thousand and three. The current Ayatola has not

3317
03:01:50,800 --> 03:01:53,160
Speaker 2: given the command to start it up again. There is

3318
03:01:53,240 --> 03:01:56,840
Speaker 2: no evidence that it is currently operative. Back in March,

3319
03:01:57,160 --> 03:02:01,080
Speaker 2: US military intelligence the DA concluded that there was no

3320
03:02:01,160 --> 03:02:05,600
Speaker 2: indication Iran had decided or attempted to restart their nuclear program.

3321
03:02:06,080 --> 03:02:08,240
Speaker 2: That said, it has been true since two thousand and

3322
03:02:08,280 --> 03:02:11,440
Speaker 2: three that they are potentially about three months or so

3323
03:02:11,640 --> 03:02:14,200
Speaker 2: away from having a nuke because of the way that

3324
03:02:14,240 --> 03:02:17,560
Speaker 2: making nukes work. So in order to make the standard

3325
03:02:17,640 --> 03:02:20,480
Speaker 2: kind of nuclear weapon that we're talking about here, you

3326
03:02:20,560 --> 03:02:24,440
Speaker 2: need a bunch of enriched uranium, right, and there's two

3327
03:02:24,520 --> 03:02:26,840
Speaker 2: kinds of uranium. There's two thirty five and there's two

3328
03:02:26,879 --> 03:02:30,280
Speaker 2: thirty eight, and naturally they always show up together, and

3329
03:02:30,320 --> 03:02:32,640
Speaker 2: there's always a lot more two thirty eight than two

3330
03:02:32,680 --> 03:02:35,920
Speaker 2: thirty five, and two thirty eight is fucking bullshit. If

3331
03:02:35,920 --> 03:02:38,320
Speaker 2: you're trying to make yourself a bomb, right, you want

3332
03:02:38,360 --> 03:02:41,560
Speaker 2: the two thirty five. And I'm not going to go

3333
03:02:41,640 --> 03:02:44,360
Speaker 2: into a ton of detail about like how you do this,

3334
03:02:44,520 --> 03:02:48,640
Speaker 2: but because of just the nature of how uranium two

3335
03:02:48,640 --> 03:02:51,600
Speaker 2: thirty five and two thirty eight work, they're chemically identical,

3336
03:02:51,879 --> 03:02:55,280
Speaker 2: so you can't use chemical reactions to separate them, right,

3337
03:02:55,360 --> 03:02:57,640
Speaker 2: So you can't use any of the easy ways that

3338
03:02:57,680 --> 03:02:59,560
Speaker 2: you would like separate one from the other in order

3339
03:02:59,560 --> 03:03:02,160
Speaker 2: to constant trait the kind of uranium that they want.

3340
03:03:02,480 --> 03:03:05,520
Speaker 2: The only way to actually do that is by using

3341
03:03:05,600 --> 03:03:09,600
Speaker 2: a centrifuge, which is, in short, uses the magic of

3342
03:03:09,680 --> 03:03:13,879
Speaker 2: spinning in order to separate out the uranium that you

3343
03:03:13,959 --> 03:03:16,600
Speaker 2: want from their uranium that's not very useful to you.

3344
03:03:17,320 --> 03:03:21,360
Speaker 2: And Iran has a substantial quantity of like sixty percent

3345
03:03:21,520 --> 03:03:25,720
Speaker 2: enriched uranium, which is basically one step away from ninety percent,

3346
03:03:25,760 --> 03:03:27,760
Speaker 2: which is like what you need to actually build the

3347
03:03:27,760 --> 03:03:29,840
Speaker 2: bomb that they need. And they've had a shitload of

3348
03:03:29,879 --> 03:03:33,600
Speaker 2: this uranium sitting around for a while, right, because it

3349
03:03:33,800 --> 03:03:37,680
Speaker 2: keeps well, and theoretically, if they were to start their

3350
03:03:37,720 --> 03:03:42,400
Speaker 2: program up again, it would be theoretically possible to enrich

3351
03:03:42,480 --> 03:03:46,280
Speaker 2: it in fairly short order to the concentration that you need,

3352
03:03:46,480 --> 03:03:49,720
Speaker 2: right and at that point, once you have a sufficient quantity.

3353
03:03:50,280 --> 03:03:54,200
Speaker 2: And you'll hear slightly different numbers, but generally agreed that

3354
03:03:54,320 --> 03:03:57,959
Speaker 2: they have a sufficient quantity of uranium that is fairly

3355
03:03:58,040 --> 03:04:01,160
Speaker 2: enriched that if they were to finish the they can

3356
03:04:01,240 --> 03:04:04,440
Speaker 2: make somewhere between like eight to ten warheads with it, right,

3357
03:04:04,560 --> 03:04:07,640
Speaker 2: like something somewhere in that vicinity, and they could have

3358
03:04:08,000 --> 03:04:11,039
Speaker 2: a functional warhead within a matter of weeks after enriching,

3359
03:04:11,080 --> 03:04:13,760
Speaker 2: because enriching the uranium is the hard part. Once you've

3360
03:04:13,800 --> 03:04:17,320
Speaker 2: done that, it's very easy to make a nuclear weapon, right,

3361
03:04:17,680 --> 03:04:20,840
Speaker 2: sufficiently skilled people could do it with like fairly minimal

3362
03:04:20,879 --> 03:04:23,800
Speaker 2: technology if they like. Getting the rich uranium is the

3363
03:04:23,800 --> 03:04:26,680
Speaker 2: hard part. So it's technically true that Iran is that,

3364
03:04:27,120 --> 03:04:29,320
Speaker 2: you know, close to having a weapon they have been

3365
03:04:29,360 --> 03:04:31,640
Speaker 2: since two thousand and three. But the more important part

3366
03:04:31,680 --> 03:04:34,119
Speaker 2: of the story is that they have not been working

3367
03:04:34,200 --> 03:04:36,360
Speaker 2: on a weapon, and there's no evidence even for the

3368
03:04:36,440 --> 03:04:39,800
Speaker 2: DEA concluded in March that they were not actively working

3369
03:04:39,800 --> 03:04:43,160
Speaker 2: on a nuclear weapon. So what's actually been going on

3370
03:04:43,240 --> 03:04:47,840
Speaker 2: here is that while the Ayatola has not reauthorized the

3371
03:04:47,879 --> 03:04:50,879
Speaker 2: program in quite some time, pressure has been It's been

3372
03:04:50,920 --> 03:04:54,360
Speaker 2: generally agreed by people watching, you know, Iranian politics, that

3373
03:04:54,600 --> 03:04:57,279
Speaker 2: pressure has been building on him in order to reauthorize

3374
03:04:57,280 --> 03:04:57,800
Speaker 2: the program.

3375
03:04:57,879 --> 03:04:58,080
Speaker 5: Right.

3376
03:04:58,480 --> 03:05:01,280
Speaker 2: There's a good CBS News article on this that notes

3377
03:05:01,280 --> 03:05:04,200
Speaker 2: that the US Intelligence Community assessment stated that there was

3378
03:05:04,240 --> 03:05:06,879
Speaker 2: an erosion of a decades long taboo on discussing nuclear

3379
03:05:06,920 --> 03:05:09,800
Speaker 2: weapons in public, brought on by all of the pressure

3380
03:05:10,080 --> 03:05:11,320
Speaker 2: against Iran by Israel.

3381
03:05:11,400 --> 03:05:11,640
Speaker 5: Right.

3382
03:05:11,720 --> 03:05:14,440
Speaker 2: In other words, the more Israel and the United States

3383
03:05:14,440 --> 03:05:17,760
Speaker 2: threaten and actually do bomb Iran, the more public support

3384
03:05:17,800 --> 03:05:20,800
Speaker 2: there is, and the more acceptable it comes to talk

3385
03:05:20,840 --> 03:05:24,480
Speaker 2: about restarting the program, right, because continuing to bomb and

3386
03:05:24,520 --> 03:05:27,680
Speaker 2: attack them makes the case very strongly that well, we

3387
03:05:27,760 --> 03:05:31,960
Speaker 2: probably need one of these fucking things, right, because otherwise

3388
03:05:31,959 --> 03:05:33,960
Speaker 2: they're simply not going to stop. And that's been the

3389
03:05:34,040 --> 03:05:36,440
Speaker 2: lesson of the twenty first century, which is, if you

3390
03:05:36,520 --> 03:05:39,000
Speaker 2: are a country that has beef with the United States

3391
03:05:39,120 --> 03:05:41,520
Speaker 2: or any other nuclear power, the safest thing to do

3392
03:05:41,680 --> 03:05:43,800
Speaker 2: is get a nuke and then get more nukes as

3393
03:05:43,879 --> 03:05:47,680
Speaker 2: quickly as possible, right, So that's the situation that we're in.

3394
03:05:47,840 --> 03:05:51,360
Speaker 2: Iran has not moved any closer to having a nuclear

3395
03:05:51,400 --> 03:05:54,440
Speaker 2: weapon over the last twenty some years, but because they've

3396
03:05:54,440 --> 03:05:57,680
Speaker 2: got this uranium, you can always technically say, well, they

3397
03:05:57,720 --> 03:05:58,920
Speaker 2: could be months away.

3398
03:05:59,120 --> 03:05:59,320
Speaker 5: Right.

3399
03:06:00,200 --> 03:06:03,640
Speaker 2: So this all leads us up to last week's strikes

3400
03:06:03,720 --> 03:06:08,000
Speaker 2: on Iran. These were using a wing of B two bombers. Actually,

3401
03:06:08,240 --> 03:06:11,160
Speaker 2: there was quite a few aircraft involved. Prior to the

3402
03:06:11,160 --> 03:06:13,080
Speaker 2: bombing attack, there was a lot of discussions like the

3403
03:06:13,160 --> 03:06:17,560
Speaker 2: United States preparing for much more extensive action in Iran

3404
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:20,600
Speaker 2: because we flew all of these different, like refueling planes

3405
03:06:20,680 --> 03:06:23,600
Speaker 2: all around the world, and we're like setting up very

3406
03:06:23,640 --> 03:06:27,080
Speaker 2: clearly this like massive set of infrastructure to refuel and

3407
03:06:27,160 --> 03:06:29,360
Speaker 2: keep a bunch of planes in the air. Now, the

3408
03:06:29,400 --> 03:06:32,279
Speaker 2: reality is that all of these refueling planes and whatnot

3409
03:06:32,480 --> 03:06:35,240
Speaker 2: were part of this bombing mission, and the bombing mission

3410
03:06:35,280 --> 03:06:38,360
Speaker 2: did not just include the seven bombers that actually struck Iran,

3411
03:06:38,720 --> 03:06:41,039
Speaker 2: but another wing of B two bombers that flew in

3412
03:06:41,120 --> 03:06:43,800
Speaker 2: the opposite direction as part of a feint, as well

3413
03:06:43,840 --> 03:06:48,480
Speaker 2: as fighter jets and reconplanes that were necessary to help

3414
03:06:48,560 --> 03:06:51,120
Speaker 2: set up and protect the whole apparatus that we were

3415
03:06:51,160 --> 03:06:53,920
Speaker 2: setting up to get these seven B twos to the

3416
03:06:53,959 --> 03:06:58,280
Speaker 2: target area. Right now, the actual mission was about thirty

3417
03:06:58,320 --> 03:07:00,840
Speaker 2: seven hours, which is not the law longest mission B

3418
03:07:00,879 --> 03:07:03,039
Speaker 2: two cruis have flown. That was forty four hours, and

3419
03:07:03,040 --> 03:07:05,879
Speaker 2: it was over Afghanistan in two thousand and one. And

3420
03:07:06,000 --> 03:07:08,039
Speaker 2: keep a pin in that because we will be talking

3421
03:07:08,080 --> 03:07:11,400
Speaker 2: about how successful that mission was, because there's some similarities

3422
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:13,680
Speaker 2: between it and what was done in Iran. Now, the

3423
03:07:13,720 --> 03:07:16,080
Speaker 2: B twos that we flew over Iran were armed with

3424
03:07:16,120 --> 03:07:20,160
Speaker 2: these big thirty thousand pound bunker busting bombs, and well,

3425
03:07:20,200 --> 03:07:22,240
Speaker 2: we'll talk about these as well in a while, but

3426
03:07:22,480 --> 03:07:24,560
Speaker 2: I want to I found out there's a very interesting

3427
03:07:24,720 --> 03:07:28,560
Speaker 2: article on a CNN Politics by Michael Williams that interviews

3428
03:07:28,680 --> 03:07:30,920
Speaker 2: one of the guys who was part of the longest

3429
03:07:31,000 --> 03:07:33,520
Speaker 2: B two mission, that mission over Afghanistan, who talked about

3430
03:07:33,560 --> 03:07:35,720
Speaker 2: like what you have to do in order to carry

3431
03:07:35,720 --> 03:07:37,080
Speaker 2: out a mission like this. And I want to bring

3432
03:07:37,120 --> 03:07:38,440
Speaker 2: it up because, you know, in the middle of this

3433
03:07:38,560 --> 03:07:41,560
Speaker 2: very shameful episode for the United States, it reminds me

3434
03:07:41,600 --> 03:07:43,640
Speaker 2: of what makes me proud of this country and what

3435
03:07:43,720 --> 03:07:46,200
Speaker 2: makes me proud of this country is our tendency to

3436
03:07:46,320 --> 03:07:49,880
Speaker 2: dose bomber pilots with massive quantities of amphetamines so that

3437
03:07:49,920 --> 03:07:53,119
Speaker 2: they can be absolutely spun off their asses when bombing

3438
03:07:53,120 --> 03:07:56,800
Speaker 2: a foreign country. And that's exactly how you get bomber

3439
03:07:56,840 --> 03:08:00,280
Speaker 2: teams over to a country like Iran for thirty seven

3440
03:08:00,320 --> 03:08:03,680
Speaker 2: hours of flight time. Is everybody is prescribed amphetamines and

3441
03:08:03,720 --> 03:08:06,120
Speaker 2: they are high as shit. They are pissing in ziploc

3442
03:08:06,160 --> 03:08:08,560
Speaker 2: bags full of kitty litter. They've got a chemical toilet

3443
03:08:08,600 --> 03:08:11,200
Speaker 2: in the back. They're just spun off of their asses,

3444
03:08:11,240 --> 03:08:14,080
Speaker 2: pissing into cat litter. And that's that's how strikes like

3445
03:08:14,120 --> 03:08:16,320
Speaker 2: this are managed, which I think is beautiful.

3446
03:08:16,440 --> 03:08:19,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, except for the whole you know, Trump starting a

3447
03:08:19,240 --> 03:08:20,760
Speaker 9: little war aspect of it.

3448
03:08:20,920 --> 03:08:24,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, sure, the massive civilian casualties are always a.

3449
03:08:24,760 --> 03:08:26,800
Speaker 4: Tragedy, Yeah, the death eminicent people.

3450
03:08:26,840 --> 03:08:29,959
Speaker 2: But you know it also, it was from fighter pilots

3451
03:08:30,040 --> 03:08:32,640
Speaker 2: that we get a swinger culture. And it's from fighter

3452
03:08:32,680 --> 03:08:35,640
Speaker 2: pilots and swinger culture that we get popularized amphetamines in

3453
03:08:35,640 --> 03:08:39,280
Speaker 2: the United States. And without that, you know, I don't know,

3454
03:08:39,480 --> 03:08:41,360
Speaker 2: we actually probably wouldn't miss out on much that was

3455
03:08:41,480 --> 03:08:41,879
Speaker 2: very good.

3456
03:08:42,600 --> 03:08:45,760
Speaker 5: But the seventies would have been different. Value was lost.

3457
03:08:46,440 --> 03:08:48,600
Speaker 5: Might have been better, Yeah, it might have been better.

3458
03:08:48,640 --> 03:08:50,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like Jefferson airplane wouldn't have

3459
03:08:50,560 --> 03:08:54,640
Speaker 2: been as good. But maybe they'd be close something else. Yeah,

3460
03:08:54,680 --> 03:08:58,039
Speaker 2: maybe they'd been called something else. So the primary munition

3461
03:08:58,240 --> 03:09:00,880
Speaker 2: that these B twos were supposed to be dropping over Iran,

3462
03:09:00,920 --> 03:09:02,640
Speaker 2: and the whole reason why the United States was needed

3463
03:09:02,680 --> 03:09:04,760
Speaker 2: because Israel had carried out a bunch of strikes on

3464
03:09:04,920 --> 03:09:10,720
Speaker 2: Iranian nuclear facilities. But basically, Iran, being intelligent, knew that, like, well,

3465
03:09:10,760 --> 03:09:13,560
Speaker 2: they're going to bomb these facilities like as long as

3466
03:09:13,600 --> 03:09:16,720
Speaker 2: they exist, and it's very difficult to get like these

3467
03:09:16,760 --> 03:09:20,120
Speaker 2: centrifugias made, right, Like that's the hardest part of getting

3468
03:09:20,120 --> 03:09:22,840
Speaker 2: a nuclear weapon is getting the equipment that will allow

3469
03:09:22,920 --> 03:09:26,360
Speaker 2: you to enrich uranium. And so it's very precious and

3470
03:09:26,400 --> 03:09:28,240
Speaker 2: you can't you don't just have you can't just remake

3471
03:09:28,320 --> 03:09:31,840
Speaker 2: it super easily. So Iran buried this shit, right. They

3472
03:09:31,879 --> 03:09:33,840
Speaker 2: had a number of different sites which were hit by

3473
03:09:33,840 --> 03:09:36,240
Speaker 2: both the US and Israel, the most deeply buried of

3474
03:09:36,240 --> 03:09:38,240
Speaker 2: which was a place called at a place called Fourdoh,

3475
03:09:38,760 --> 03:09:41,760
Speaker 2: and the actual facilities were buried underneath like the ridge

3476
03:09:41,800 --> 03:09:44,720
Speaker 2: of a mountain beneath ninety meters or about three hundred

3477
03:09:44,760 --> 03:09:48,680
Speaker 2: feet of rock. Right. And we have this tendency in

3478
03:09:48,720 --> 03:09:52,439
Speaker 2: the West in part because of generations of like military

3479
03:09:52,440 --> 03:09:55,680
Speaker 2: industry propaganda, and in part because the Air Force really

3480
03:09:55,680 --> 03:09:58,320
Speaker 2: wants you to believe this that bombs are a lot

3481
03:09:58,400 --> 03:10:02,160
Speaker 2: more powerful than they are now. Bombs are great at

3482
03:10:02,160 --> 03:10:04,680
Speaker 2: blowing up buildings that are just hanging around on the

3483
03:10:04,720 --> 03:10:07,520
Speaker 2: surface of the earth, and they're great at killing people.

3484
03:10:07,600 --> 03:10:10,360
Speaker 2: They're great at killing civilians, people who are not you know,

3485
03:10:10,600 --> 03:10:13,280
Speaker 2: armored or defended against them. They're awesome at that. You know,

3486
03:10:13,280 --> 03:10:15,600
Speaker 2: what bombs suck at is going more than a couple

3487
03:10:15,600 --> 03:10:18,360
Speaker 2: of feet below the earth. They're terrible at it. Even

3488
03:10:18,480 --> 03:10:21,760
Speaker 2: really big bombs, even the scariest bombs we've ever made,

3489
03:10:22,080 --> 03:10:26,119
Speaker 2: absolute dog shit at getting through, especially like stone and rock.

3490
03:10:26,680 --> 03:10:29,640
Speaker 2: And so Israel was like, we don't have the capacity,

3491
03:10:29,640 --> 03:10:32,480
Speaker 2: we don't have the technology to actually like crack a

3492
03:10:32,520 --> 03:10:35,280
Speaker 2: facility like fourd oh. The only thing that can is

3493
03:10:35,320 --> 03:10:38,119
Speaker 2: these bombs that can only be carried by the Bee two,

3494
03:10:38,320 --> 03:10:40,920
Speaker 2: which are these thirty thousand pounds bunker busters.

3495
03:10:41,000 --> 03:10:41,200
Speaker 5: Right.

3496
03:10:41,680 --> 03:10:44,320
Speaker 2: And the question that comes up then is like, Okay,

3497
03:10:44,360 --> 03:10:47,280
Speaker 2: well this four doah is ninety meters. It was beneath

3498
03:10:47,360 --> 03:10:51,320
Speaker 2: ninety meters of rock. How deep can these GBU fifty sevens,

3499
03:10:51,360 --> 03:10:54,120
Speaker 2: these massive ordnance penetrator bombs, which had not been used

3500
03:10:54,160 --> 03:10:55,959
Speaker 2: in combat before? How deep can these fuckers go?

3501
03:10:56,200 --> 03:10:56,400
Speaker 5: Right?

3502
03:10:57,200 --> 03:11:00,000
Speaker 2: That seems like a simple question. You will usually see

3503
03:11:00,280 --> 03:11:02,879
Speaker 2: most of the graphics on the news will show that

3504
03:11:02,959 --> 03:11:05,520
Speaker 2: it penetrates sixty meters right or two hundred feet, and

3505
03:11:05,560 --> 03:11:08,800
Speaker 2: then it detonates, right, which you could do damage to

3506
03:11:08,800 --> 03:11:11,240
Speaker 2: a facility that's buried deeper. Right, If you're detonating it

3507
03:11:11,360 --> 03:11:14,080
Speaker 2: like sixty meters down and it goes down ninety meters,

3508
03:11:14,200 --> 03:11:17,039
Speaker 2: that explosion could do enough extra damage. It could damage

3509
03:11:17,040 --> 03:11:19,560
Speaker 2: a facility that's just like another thirty meters below.

3510
03:11:19,640 --> 03:11:19,800
Speaker 1: Right.

3511
03:11:19,840 --> 03:11:24,959
Speaker 2: Theoretically, however, that doesn't tell the full story. And I'm

3512
03:11:25,040 --> 03:11:27,400
Speaker 2: very indebted in this part to an NPR article by

3513
03:11:27,480 --> 03:11:30,920
Speaker 2: Joff Brumfel, who did actually like the math. Right, So

3514
03:11:31,000 --> 03:11:33,280
Speaker 2: we figured out a long time ago when we started

3515
03:11:33,320 --> 03:11:37,640
Speaker 2: bombing things, there's like a mathematical equation to how far

3516
03:11:37,840 --> 03:11:40,760
Speaker 2: a bomb that's a given weight and dropped from a

3517
03:11:40,760 --> 03:11:44,280
Speaker 2: given height and has a given explosive payload can penetrate

3518
03:11:44,360 --> 03:11:46,680
Speaker 2: through different kind of substrates right that you can just

3519
03:11:46,760 --> 03:11:49,879
Speaker 2: kind of plug that equation in. And yeah, I want

3520
03:11:49,920 --> 03:11:53,400
Speaker 2: to quote from Jeff's article right now, because it does

3521
03:11:53,440 --> 03:11:56,240
Speaker 2: a very good job of like looking at kind of

3522
03:11:56,320 --> 03:11:59,520
Speaker 2: why this was sort of a dogshit plan from the start.

3523
03:12:00,080 --> 03:12:01,440
Speaker 2: I went back to take a look at the math

3524
03:12:01,440 --> 03:12:03,920
Speaker 2: from those early studies and I found it was actually straightforward.

3525
03:12:04,000 --> 03:12:06,680
Speaker 2: The so called penetration equations have existed since the nineteen

3526
03:12:06,720 --> 03:12:09,160
Speaker 2: sixties and depend on a limited number of factors, including

3527
03:12:09,160 --> 03:12:11,080
Speaker 2: the shape of the nose cone, the weight and diameter

3528
03:12:11,120 --> 03:12:13,280
Speaker 2: of the weapon, the speed at which it hits the ground,

3529
03:12:13,360 --> 03:12:15,400
Speaker 2: and crucially, the type of earth it gets dropped on.

3530
03:12:15,800 --> 03:12:18,320
Speaker 2: It depends enormously on the kind of rocks, as Raymond

3531
03:12:18,640 --> 03:12:21,520
Speaker 2: Gene Laws, the professor at the University of California, Berkeley

3532
03:12:21,560 --> 03:12:23,360
Speaker 2: and one of the original authors of the two thousand

3533
03:12:23,360 --> 03:12:26,240
Speaker 2: and five National Academic Study and Earth Penetrators. When I

3534
03:12:26,280 --> 03:12:28,880
Speaker 2: ran the calculations using a key equation from that study,

3535
03:12:29,040 --> 03:12:31,000
Speaker 2: I found that the GBU fifty seven could go up

3536
03:12:31,040 --> 03:12:34,360
Speaker 2: to eighty meters underground if it was dropped in salty clay.

3537
03:12:34,680 --> 03:12:37,520
Speaker 2: In medium strength rock, things looked far different. The GBU

3538
03:12:37,600 --> 03:12:40,480
Speaker 2: fifty seven could only go around seven point nine meters

3539
03:12:40,480 --> 03:12:44,600
Speaker 2: beneath the earth, So that's not nearly the sixty meters

3540
03:12:44,600 --> 03:12:46,720
Speaker 2: that you're seeing claimed on most and it's nowhere close

3541
03:12:46,760 --> 03:12:50,160
Speaker 2: to ninety, right, And there's a good amount of data

3542
03:12:50,280 --> 03:12:52,680
Speaker 2: we already have. Trump obviously claimed as soon as we

3543
03:12:52,720 --> 03:12:56,400
Speaker 2: did this bombing run, because we dropped a fairly heavy

3544
03:12:56,440 --> 03:12:59,600
Speaker 2: cluster of these bombs, twelve on four to zero. And

3545
03:12:59,680 --> 03:13:01,959
Speaker 2: Trump's claim was that, like, yeah, it was completely destroyed.

3546
03:13:02,320 --> 03:13:04,959
Speaker 2: His press secretary said, when you dropped twelve thirty thousand

3547
03:13:05,000 --> 03:13:08,120
Speaker 2: pound bombs with perfect precision on a target, there's only

3548
03:13:08,160 --> 03:13:11,959
Speaker 2: one result, complete destruction. And that's not true even if

3549
03:13:12,000 --> 03:13:13,879
Speaker 2: you just like look at the past of us using

3550
03:13:13,879 --> 03:13:16,200
Speaker 2: these weapons. I mentioned earlier that two thousand and one

3551
03:13:16,240 --> 03:13:19,160
Speaker 2: mission to Afghanistan that was us trying to blow up

3552
03:13:19,200 --> 03:13:22,560
Speaker 2: that's purported like cave fortress that bin Laden had.

3553
03:13:22,800 --> 03:13:25,360
Speaker 10: You may have seen the diagram in Tora Bora, and

3554
03:13:25,800 --> 03:13:30,080
Speaker 10: we didn't. It didn't work because it's really hard for

3555
03:13:30,160 --> 03:13:33,840
Speaker 10: all of our technological might, it's very hard to blow

3556
03:13:33,959 --> 03:13:37,680
Speaker 10: up something buried under rock, Like it doesn't matter how

3557
03:13:37,680 --> 03:13:39,359
Speaker 10: many of these giant bombs.

3558
03:13:39,040 --> 03:13:42,360
Speaker 2: You have, We're shit at it. Right now, there's still

3559
03:13:42,360 --> 03:13:46,360
Speaker 2: some debate. The DIA assessment says that basically, we did damage,

3560
03:13:46,400 --> 03:13:48,520
Speaker 2: but it was at most maybe enough to knock them

3561
03:13:48,560 --> 03:13:51,200
Speaker 2: back by eight months, and probably less than that. Right,

3562
03:13:51,800 --> 03:13:54,240
Speaker 2: it's kind of debatable, and we don't have perfect data

3563
03:13:54,240 --> 03:13:56,199
Speaker 2: on this, right, I don't know that Iran has perfect

3564
03:13:56,240 --> 03:13:58,039
Speaker 2: data on this, because one thing we can confirm is

3565
03:13:58,040 --> 03:14:01,400
Speaker 2: that the bombing sealed the intro, so it's possible they

3566
03:14:01,440 --> 03:14:03,640
Speaker 2: can't get into Ford Oh quite yet. Right, Like, there's

3567
03:14:03,680 --> 03:14:05,320
Speaker 2: going to be some work needed to do to be

3568
03:14:05,320 --> 03:14:07,440
Speaker 2: able to get these facilities if they were to do that,

3569
03:14:07,480 --> 03:14:11,080
Speaker 2: which again they were not based on US military intelligence,

3570
03:14:11,120 --> 03:14:14,400
Speaker 2: were not doing prior to the bombing, but based on

3571
03:14:14,440 --> 03:14:17,119
Speaker 2: satellite imagery, it does not look like there's not really

3572
03:14:17,120 --> 03:14:20,400
Speaker 2: good evidence that we did any kind of significant damage.

3573
03:14:20,560 --> 03:14:24,040
Speaker 2: There's some reports that some centrifugias were damaged, but those

3574
03:14:24,040 --> 03:14:26,879
Speaker 2: reports state that other centrifugias were intact. So it's one

3575
03:14:26,879 --> 03:14:30,120
Speaker 2: of those things where like there's not any strong evidence.

3576
03:14:30,160 --> 03:14:32,720
Speaker 2: And in fact, the DIA's report suggests that, like, the

3577
03:14:32,800 --> 03:14:36,320
Speaker 2: damage done was fairly minimal, given the extreme cost of

3578
03:14:36,360 --> 03:14:39,160
Speaker 2: this operation and the brags that the administration has been

3579
03:14:39,200 --> 03:14:42,879
Speaker 2: making that like they totally destroyed these facilities, right, right,

3580
03:14:43,080 --> 03:14:47,440
Speaker 2: We simply did not totally destroy these facilities. Now, it's

3581
03:14:47,720 --> 03:14:51,480
Speaker 2: a little too early to say so precisely, like how

3582
03:14:51,560 --> 03:14:54,480
Speaker 2: bad is this? Right, But you know again, that's kind

3583
03:14:54,480 --> 03:14:57,680
Speaker 2: of the early data is that, like the DIA assessment says,

3584
03:14:57,720 --> 03:15:00,199
Speaker 2: we set them back maybe a few months at most.

3585
03:15:00,480 --> 03:15:02,520
Speaker 2: One of the fun things about this is that Iran

3586
03:15:02,640 --> 03:15:06,160
Speaker 2: moved their uranium prior to the bombing, right, Like, you

3587
03:15:06,200 --> 03:15:09,920
Speaker 2: can't really move these giant centrifuges or these big underground facilities,

3588
03:15:09,959 --> 03:15:11,959
Speaker 2: but you can take the uranium and you can just

3589
03:15:12,080 --> 03:15:14,600
Speaker 2: drive at places and we don't know exactly where they

3590
03:15:14,680 --> 03:15:16,720
Speaker 2: hit it. The head of the IAEA, which is the

3591
03:15:16,720 --> 03:15:20,280
Speaker 2: International Atomic Energy Commission, has already come out and said, like,

3592
03:15:20,360 --> 03:15:23,440
Speaker 2: I have no idea where Iran's uranium is. And it's

3593
03:15:23,480 --> 03:15:25,840
Speaker 2: the job the IAEA's job is to account for every

3594
03:15:25,879 --> 03:15:29,600
Speaker 2: fucking gram of uranium held by every country in the world. Right,

3595
03:15:29,600 --> 03:15:31,880
Speaker 2: they are supposed to know at all times where it is.

3596
03:15:32,400 --> 03:15:34,640
Speaker 2: And he's like, I have no fucking idea, Like, we

3597
03:15:34,720 --> 03:15:36,360
Speaker 2: don't know where it is, and we don't know how

3598
03:15:36,400 --> 03:15:38,080
Speaker 2: much damage is double, we don't know where this is.

3599
03:15:38,320 --> 03:15:40,600
Speaker 2: There is at least one report stating that Iran's plan

3600
03:15:40,720 --> 03:15:42,880
Speaker 2: was basically load this up into the trunks of a

3601
03:15:42,920 --> 03:15:45,320
Speaker 2: bunch of cars and park them in public parking lots

3602
03:15:45,400 --> 03:15:47,400
Speaker 2: because they probably they're not going to bomb a public

3603
03:15:47,440 --> 03:15:51,480
Speaker 2: parking lot outside of like a store, which is really funny,

3604
03:15:51,560 --> 03:15:54,400
Speaker 2: actually fair, The US might do that.

3605
03:15:55,200 --> 03:15:58,080
Speaker 4: A Israel will send me bomb a fucking pokin they

3606
03:15:58,200 --> 03:16:01,360
Speaker 4: hit a press, which parking there's so yeah, yeah, and

3607
03:16:01,400 --> 03:16:03,800
Speaker 4: they'll pray a show game, right like they will send

3608
03:16:03,879 --> 03:16:06,400
Speaker 4: hundreds of trucks and vans from every location.

3609
03:16:06,680 --> 03:16:08,120
Speaker 5: Yeah right, they'll send way more.

3610
03:16:08,200 --> 03:16:10,560
Speaker 2: It's it's just the funniest thing in terms of it

3611
03:16:10,600 --> 03:16:13,240
Speaker 2: also points out how doomed efforts like this are where

3612
03:16:13,240 --> 03:16:15,600
Speaker 2: you just like, well, with our technology and our fancy

3613
03:16:15,640 --> 03:16:18,400
Speaker 2: stealth bombers, we clearly we should be able to figure

3614
03:16:18,400 --> 03:16:20,360
Speaker 2: this out. And it's like, nah, we're just gonna park.

3615
03:16:20,440 --> 03:16:22,959
Speaker 2: We need one hundred cars. We'll bring in six hundred

3616
03:16:23,000 --> 03:16:26,039
Speaker 2: cars and we'll park them randomly all around the country.

3617
03:16:26,200 --> 03:16:29,640
Speaker 2: Fuck you, what are you gonna do? Bomb every parking lot? Like,

3618
03:16:32,120 --> 03:16:33,879
Speaker 2: it's very funny quote.

3619
03:16:33,600 --> 03:16:36,600
Speaker 5: From parking lot bombed? What are you gonna do? Yeah?

3620
03:16:37,240 --> 03:16:41,600
Speaker 2: Anyway, that's uh, what's going on with us? Bombing Iran

3621
03:16:41,920 --> 03:16:45,760
Speaker 2: and so again very expensive. Yeah, probably did not do.

3622
03:16:45,879 --> 03:16:49,240
Speaker 4: Much Trump the Doves strikes again the peace maker they

3623
03:16:49,320 --> 03:16:50,320
Speaker 4: calling them the peace maker.

3624
03:16:50,760 --> 03:16:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about the peace bullshit after this. We

3625
03:16:53,360 --> 03:16:54,560
Speaker 2: should throw to ads first.

3626
03:16:54,640 --> 03:16:56,840
Speaker 5: Thank you note from Grumman for sponsoring this segment.

3627
03:17:09,400 --> 03:17:14,720
Speaker 2: We're back. So like the fourd Oh nuclear enrichment facility,

3628
03:17:14,959 --> 03:17:18,360
Speaker 2: Trump is between a rock and a hard place with

3629
03:17:18,360 --> 03:17:22,680
Speaker 2: with this whole carrying out illegal stripes on a sovereign

3630
03:17:22,760 --> 03:17:25,440
Speaker 2: nation thing. I'm a jig in that he came. He

3631
03:17:25,520 --> 03:17:27,880
Speaker 2: came to power a large part by promising I'm not

3632
03:17:27,920 --> 03:17:30,240
Speaker 2: going to do a World War three. I'm not gonna

3633
03:17:30,320 --> 03:17:33,760
Speaker 2: All these democrats are crazy warmongers, but not old Donnie t.

3634
03:17:34,080 --> 03:17:35,800
Speaker 2: You know, you can you can trust me to be

3635
03:17:35,800 --> 03:17:39,200
Speaker 2: a peacemaker. And then he fucking bombs around, which is

3636
03:17:39,280 --> 03:17:42,879
Speaker 2: kind of a major escalation, right, So, and we're not

3637
03:17:42,920 --> 03:17:45,280
Speaker 2: gonna There's been people arguing with this have happened under

3638
03:17:45,320 --> 03:17:48,040
Speaker 2: Kamala Yaddiya. I don't, I don't, I don't give a shit.

3639
03:17:48,080 --> 03:17:50,440
Speaker 2: I don't really shit it's happening now. Fucking fuck off,

3640
03:17:50,840 --> 03:17:53,680
Speaker 2: Like it's not it's not worth talking about that. We're

3641
03:17:53,680 --> 03:17:55,800
Speaker 2: talking about what's happening, which is that this is a

3642
03:17:55,800 --> 03:17:58,640
Speaker 2: major escalation. But Trump has had to He's kind of

3643
03:17:58,640 --> 03:18:01,480
Speaker 2: been hedging between like, yeah, look at how fucking cool

3644
03:18:01,520 --> 03:18:03,440
Speaker 2: our weapons are. We fuck them up so bad, and

3645
03:18:03,520 --> 03:18:05,760
Speaker 2: also and now it's time for peace. We have to

3646
03:18:05,760 --> 03:18:08,400
Speaker 2: stop the violence. Why don't you guys come to the table.

3647
03:18:08,480 --> 03:18:11,440
Speaker 2: Let's all be friends, and getting pretty pissed at the

3648
03:18:11,480 --> 03:18:15,400
Speaker 2: Israeli government, Yes, because he announced a ceasefire, and Iran

3649
03:18:15,560 --> 03:18:18,879
Speaker 2: was like, after striking back and hitting US bases in

3650
03:18:18,920 --> 03:18:21,400
Speaker 2: a number of countries, was like, okay, we're done. Like

3651
03:18:21,480 --> 03:18:23,240
Speaker 2: we did the thing we had, we did the face

3652
03:18:23,280 --> 03:18:25,800
Speaker 2: saving thing. We have to launch missiles after youbamas. We

3653
03:18:25,840 --> 03:18:27,800
Speaker 2: can't not do that. Yeah, but we did it. We

3654
03:18:27,840 --> 03:18:30,240
Speaker 2: got our strike off, and we're not going to continue

3655
03:18:30,320 --> 03:18:33,080
Speaker 2: if you guys don't continue, right, And Trump was like,

3656
03:18:33,120 --> 03:18:34,920
Speaker 2: I did it. I made peace. Look at look at

3657
03:18:34,959 --> 03:18:37,760
Speaker 2: how good I am. And then Israel immediately starts carrying

3658
03:18:37,800 --> 03:18:41,440
Speaker 2: out more straits and Trump is, are we gonna play

3659
03:18:41,480 --> 03:18:44,119
Speaker 2: the audio of it cursing on TV because it's very good.

3660
03:18:44,720 --> 03:18:48,119
Speaker 2: Here's here's Trump being confronted about this, Like, within hours

3661
03:18:48,120 --> 03:18:49,600
Speaker 2: of this Israeli strikes.

3662
03:18:49,879 --> 03:18:50,560
Speaker 5: You know what we have.

3663
03:18:50,720 --> 03:18:54,240
Speaker 14: We basically have two countries that have been fighting so

3664
03:18:54,400 --> 03:18:57,160
Speaker 14: long and so hard that they don't know what the

3665
03:18:57,200 --> 03:18:58,039
Speaker 14: fuck they're doing.

3666
03:18:58,040 --> 03:18:58,879
Speaker 5: Do you understand that?

3667
03:19:00,640 --> 03:19:04,600
Speaker 2: So that's a pissed off man, and he's pissed off again.

3668
03:19:04,840 --> 03:19:07,040
Speaker 2: I do think people are generally wrong when they're like, oh,

3669
03:19:07,080 --> 03:19:09,760
Speaker 2: Trump's much better on Israel because he can confront net Yahoo.

3670
03:19:09,840 --> 03:19:12,160
Speaker 2: That hasn't really proved to be the case yet. But

3671
03:19:12,360 --> 03:19:16,120
Speaker 2: unlike Biden, Trump clearly doesn't care about Like he's willing

3672
03:19:16,160 --> 03:19:17,520
Speaker 2: to be pissed at net Yahoo.

3673
03:19:17,560 --> 03:19:22,320
Speaker 5: And he was really pissed in this openly, like yeah, absolutely.

3674
03:19:21,879 --> 03:19:24,400
Speaker 2: Openly, very yeah, because again he's hanging a lot on

3675
03:19:24,600 --> 03:19:27,320
Speaker 2: like nobody would dare go back to war when I

3676
03:19:27,400 --> 03:19:29,760
Speaker 2: said they were at peace? Right, Like that's that this

3677
03:19:29,840 --> 03:19:31,680
Speaker 2: is like an ego thing for him more than anything.

3678
03:19:31,720 --> 03:19:33,600
Speaker 2: He certainly doesn't give a shit about the human cost

3679
03:19:33,640 --> 03:19:37,120
Speaker 2: of any of this. But yeah, and so that's where

3680
03:19:37,120 --> 03:19:39,520
Speaker 2: we are right now. Are we done? Will there continue

3681
03:19:39,560 --> 03:19:43,240
Speaker 2: to be more strikes and retaliation strikes. Something's gonna happen.

3682
03:19:43,360 --> 03:19:46,800
Speaker 2: It's not done, right, none of it's done. No. But

3683
03:19:47,320 --> 03:19:51,280
Speaker 2: you know, also, Iran's not stupid, right, This is a

3684
03:19:51,360 --> 03:19:55,040
Speaker 2: country that has been in these circumstances and in variations

3685
03:19:55,040 --> 03:19:57,600
Speaker 2: of this conflict for a long time, and they are

3686
03:19:57,640 --> 03:20:00,920
Speaker 2: neither foolish nor suicidal. So they're not going to be

3687
03:20:01,480 --> 03:20:04,959
Speaker 2: completely reckless here, right, Like I think you're seeing and

3688
03:20:05,000 --> 03:20:08,000
Speaker 2: what you've seen is pretty calculated responses where they are

3689
03:20:08,080 --> 03:20:11,400
Speaker 2: aware of how much they think they can push when

3690
03:20:11,520 --> 03:20:13,920
Speaker 2: and where, right, And so I, you know, I think

3691
03:20:14,000 --> 03:20:17,560
Speaker 2: we're likely to like I don't know that. I think

3692
03:20:17,600 --> 03:20:20,240
Speaker 2: the escalation ladder is in like a runaway state. I

3693
03:20:20,280 --> 03:20:23,240
Speaker 2: don't see that evidence right now. But this is not

3694
03:20:23,360 --> 03:20:26,160
Speaker 2: the end of this, right, Yeah.

3695
03:20:26,200 --> 03:20:29,280
Speaker 5: So something we got news of today in the last

3696
03:20:29,320 --> 03:20:30,959
Speaker 5: this is Wednesday. We got this in the last.

3697
03:20:30,959 --> 03:20:34,800
Speaker 12: Hour or so, is that Trump like send on TV

3698
03:20:34,959 --> 03:20:36,720
Speaker 12: the thing that you're not actually supposed to say, which

3699
03:20:36,760 --> 03:20:39,720
Speaker 12: is that the US and Iran coordinated to have the

3700
03:20:40,040 --> 03:20:44,840
Speaker 12: Iran shoot these bases. Oh my god, it's like okay,

3701
03:20:44,879 --> 03:20:47,359
Speaker 12: like they like we literally went on TV and said, quote,

3702
03:20:48,360 --> 03:20:50,920
Speaker 12: you saw that working vessels were shot at us the

3703
03:20:50,959 --> 03:20:53,400
Speaker 12: other day, and Iran was very nice. They said we're

3704
03:20:53,400 --> 03:20:56,440
Speaker 12: gonna shoot them at one at one Okay, I said,

3705
03:20:56,480 --> 03:20:56,960
Speaker 12: it's fine.

3706
03:20:57,760 --> 03:20:58,879
Speaker 5: Everybody evacuated.

3707
03:20:58,959 --> 03:21:01,680
Speaker 12: Not the basis Like obviously the US has always done this,

3708
03:21:01,959 --> 03:21:04,480
Speaker 12: but like we've never had the president go on TV

3709
03:21:04,680 --> 03:21:08,320
Speaker 12: and just say, yeah, we let Iran shoot empty military.

3710
03:21:07,879 --> 03:21:11,280
Speaker 5: Basis, Yeah we worked it out with them. Yep, yep.

3711
03:21:12,160 --> 03:21:14,320
Speaker 2: This highlights something that's so interesting when I when I

3712
03:21:14,360 --> 03:21:17,080
Speaker 2: say this, I don't mean to ignore the fact that

3713
03:21:17,160 --> 03:21:21,199
Speaker 2: real people are dying, like particularly in Iran. It's horrifying,

3714
03:21:21,240 --> 03:21:23,160
Speaker 2: But there is a massive degree of this at the

3715
03:21:23,440 --> 03:21:26,879
Speaker 2: at the the nation state level that is kfa right,

3716
03:21:26,920 --> 03:21:29,120
Speaker 2: and that that proves it like Iran is like okay,

3717
03:21:29,160 --> 03:21:29,520
Speaker 2: look k.

3718
03:21:29,640 --> 03:21:32,640
Speaker 5: FAE with the cost of like yeah, thousands of lives,

3719
03:21:32,680 --> 03:21:35,839
Speaker 5: people will die. Yeah, it's it's it's dick measuring.

3720
03:21:35,680 --> 03:21:37,000
Speaker 2: The fact that iron is only to talk with you

3721
03:21:37,040 --> 03:21:38,879
Speaker 2: us about like okay, what can we strike that's not

3722
03:21:38,920 --> 03:21:40,640
Speaker 2: going to escal things for you, like yeah, we'll pull

3723
03:21:40,720 --> 03:21:42,920
Speaker 2: you know whatever. And also that's to a degree that

3724
03:21:43,040 --> 03:21:45,160
Speaker 2: was going on with the strikes on Iran, right where

3725
03:21:45,200 --> 03:21:47,240
Speaker 2: they got enough of a warning that they were able

3726
03:21:47,280 --> 03:21:51,120
Speaker 2: to move their physical material right Like this is there,

3727
03:21:51,320 --> 03:21:53,280
Speaker 2: which is not to say that like things are like

3728
03:21:53,360 --> 03:21:57,200
Speaker 2: copasetic and friendly, but everybody's got everybody, but Israel has

3729
03:21:57,280 --> 03:22:00,400
Speaker 2: like a vested interest in things not escalating to much

3730
03:22:00,520 --> 03:22:03,680
Speaker 2: even the Trump administration, right has a vested interest in like,

3731
03:22:03,760 --> 03:22:06,240
Speaker 2: there's a line we don't want to cross because we

3732
03:22:06,320 --> 03:22:08,800
Speaker 2: just don't see any like benefit in it, right, and

3733
03:22:08,840 --> 03:22:12,560
Speaker 2: that is that is a part of what's going on here. Yeah, anyway,

3734
03:22:12,800 --> 03:22:16,600
Speaker 2: that's probably enough talk about Iran and news and stuff.

3735
03:22:16,640 --> 03:22:19,640
Speaker 2: But anyway, remember, folks, you too could be a nuclear

3736
03:22:19,680 --> 03:22:21,240
Speaker 2: power if you can just figure out how to make

3737
03:22:21,240 --> 03:22:26,000
Speaker 2: a functional centrifuge and get a shitload of uranium. You know,

3738
03:22:26,400 --> 03:22:27,280
Speaker 2: it's not that hard.

3739
03:22:27,360 --> 03:22:30,080
Speaker 4: It just comes out of the ground, depending on what

3740
03:22:30,200 --> 03:22:30,879
Speaker 4: that ground.

3741
03:22:30,720 --> 03:22:32,160
Speaker 2: Is, depending on where that ground is.

3742
03:22:32,520 --> 03:22:36,080
Speaker 4: Should you talk about immigration, sure, all right, I love

3743
03:22:36,120 --> 03:22:39,680
Speaker 4: immigration sadly, but Congress does not agree with you.

3744
03:22:39,879 --> 03:22:41,720
Speaker 2: They rarely do, James, they rarely do.

3745
03:22:42,360 --> 03:22:43,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is one of the things they say about

3746
03:22:43,800 --> 03:22:47,080
Speaker 4: Robot Evans. I want to start, actually with a little

3747
03:22:47,959 --> 03:22:55,240
Speaker 4: no disclaimer rant. Almost every day for the past six months,

3748
03:22:55,320 --> 03:22:58,680
Speaker 4: someone has sent me a tip saying that ice are

3749
03:22:58,800 --> 03:23:02,440
Speaker 4: rating a hospital. This has happened almost every month for

3750
03:23:02,480 --> 03:23:07,120
Speaker 4: the past ten years. I have received this tip thousands

3751
03:23:07,120 --> 03:23:11,359
Speaker 4: of times. To my knowledge, it has never been true. Nonetheless,

3752
03:23:11,520 --> 03:23:14,800
Speaker 4: this rumor persists, and especially among people who might be

3753
03:23:14,879 --> 03:23:19,439
Speaker 4: newer to migrant advocacy or newer to observing immigration enforcement.

3754
03:23:20,240 --> 03:23:22,680
Speaker 4: What is happening in one hundred percent of these cases

3755
03:23:22,680 --> 03:23:25,400
Speaker 4: that I have looked into, is the customs of Border

3756
03:23:25,440 --> 03:23:30,360
Speaker 4: Protection or ICE or some other immigration detention agency is

3757
03:23:30,400 --> 03:23:34,240
Speaker 4: taking somebody who is in their custody to the hospital,

3758
03:23:34,840 --> 03:23:37,360
Speaker 4: and then that person is getting treatment, and then they

3759
03:23:37,400 --> 03:23:42,000
Speaker 4: are released again to that immigration agency. Normally, those immigration

3760
03:23:42,080 --> 03:23:45,080
Speaker 4: agents can't enter non public areas of the hospital i e.

3761
03:23:45,200 --> 03:23:48,200
Speaker 4: Treatment rooms, but they can into public areas i e.

3762
03:23:48,360 --> 03:23:48,800
Speaker 5: Lobbies.

3763
03:23:49,760 --> 03:23:53,240
Speaker 4: This rumor, which continues to spread, which I've seen people

3764
03:23:53,400 --> 03:23:58,920
Speaker 4: including journalists sharing on social media, kills people right. I'm

3765
03:23:58,920 --> 03:24:00,840
Speaker 4: aware of one incident in which someone was having a

3766
03:24:00,879 --> 03:24:04,280
Speaker 4: medical emergency and didn't want to go to hospital, a

3767
03:24:04,320 --> 03:24:08,080
Speaker 4: medical emergency which could very well have killed them within hours,

3768
03:24:08,520 --> 03:24:10,560
Speaker 4: and didn't want to go to hospital because they had

3769
03:24:10,600 --> 03:24:13,680
Speaker 4: heard that ICE was at the hospitals. I understand that

3770
03:24:13,760 --> 03:24:17,080
Speaker 4: people are coming to this with varying levels of experience.

3771
03:24:17,160 --> 03:24:20,199
Speaker 4: It's cool, it's great that people are showing up for migrants,

3772
03:24:20,600 --> 03:24:24,280
Speaker 4: but people need to exercise caution around this because it

3773
03:24:24,400 --> 03:24:27,880
Speaker 4: is not harmless to spread that rumor unless you are

3774
03:24:27,920 --> 03:24:29,880
Speaker 4: absolutely certain that it is true.

3775
03:24:30,480 --> 03:24:32,160
Speaker 5: It hurts people and I.

3776
03:24:32,320 --> 03:24:34,680
Speaker 4: Keep seeing it and I think it's important to say

3777
03:24:34,720 --> 03:24:39,360
Speaker 4: something about it, including two other journalists. Okay, with that said,

3778
03:24:39,440 --> 03:24:42,160
Speaker 4: let's start with some good news about immigration. ICE agents

3779
03:24:42,200 --> 03:24:46,160
Speaker 4: in San Diego scattered from the San Diego Court when

3780
03:24:46,200 --> 03:24:49,520
Speaker 4: the newly appointed San Diego Bishop Michael Farm, who is

3781
03:24:49,600 --> 03:24:53,279
Speaker 4: himself a refugee. He was an accompanied miner from Vietnam,

3782
03:24:54,040 --> 03:24:57,760
Speaker 4: entered the court to accompany people to their immigration hearings.

3783
03:24:58,400 --> 03:25:02,480
Speaker 4: Bishop Farm was joined by Taha Hassane. I'm saying that

3784
03:25:02,520 --> 03:25:05,640
Speaker 4: correctly of the Islamic Center of San Diego and our

3785
03:25:05,720 --> 03:25:09,200
Speaker 4: Lady of Guadaloupe Church, Pastor Scott Santa Rossa. They say

3786
03:25:09,200 --> 03:25:12,520
Speaker 4: they're going to keep doing this quote as needed. So

3787
03:25:12,959 --> 03:25:16,640
Speaker 4: this is actually one of the very few things, at

3788
03:25:16,720 --> 03:25:19,279
Speaker 4: least in court houses, seems to have worked.

3789
03:25:19,440 --> 03:25:19,640
Speaker 5: Right.

3790
03:25:19,879 --> 03:25:22,400
Speaker 4: We've covered this in previous weeks that what is happening

3791
03:25:22,480 --> 03:25:26,080
Speaker 4: is that the government is dismissing the case against people

3792
03:25:26,080 --> 03:25:29,680
Speaker 4: and then immediately detaining them and forcing them to fight

3793
03:25:29,720 --> 03:25:31,279
Speaker 4: for their asylum well detained.

3794
03:25:31,360 --> 03:25:31,480
Speaker 5: Right.

3795
03:25:31,520 --> 03:25:34,760
Speaker 4: This has been happening all across the country. San Diego

3796
03:25:34,959 --> 03:25:39,520
Speaker 4: is the only place I'm aware of where religious leaders

3797
03:25:39,560 --> 03:25:42,840
Speaker 4: right from across the religious community are accompanying migrants to

3798
03:25:42,879 --> 03:25:45,640
Speaker 4: their detention hearings. So we saw Brad Lander doing this

3799
03:25:45,720 --> 03:25:48,400
Speaker 4: in New York politician, but this is the only instance

3800
03:25:48,440 --> 03:25:51,160
Speaker 4: I'm aware of where clerics are doing it, and it

3801
03:25:51,200 --> 03:25:53,480
Speaker 4: seems to have worked. It seems to have in this

3802
03:25:53,600 --> 03:25:57,160
Speaker 4: incident or in these instances, prevented ICE from detaining people.

3803
03:25:57,640 --> 03:26:00,600
Speaker 4: And like, I'm not a religious person myself, but I

3804
03:26:00,600 --> 03:26:02,880
Speaker 4: will say that I respect this. I think this is

3805
03:26:03,800 --> 03:26:06,640
Speaker 4: this is cool. I've reported before, I spoke a lot

3806
03:26:06,680 --> 03:26:10,640
Speaker 4: about Jesuits in the Darien Gap and the how impressed

3807
03:26:10,760 --> 03:26:13,080
Speaker 4: and in awe of their work with migrants I am.

3808
03:26:13,440 --> 03:26:17,520
Speaker 4: And I think this is another example of people organizing

3809
03:26:17,959 --> 03:26:20,040
Speaker 4: with groups and they might not normally organize with but

3810
03:26:20,400 --> 03:26:22,440
Speaker 4: that having really beneficial results.

3811
03:26:22,520 --> 03:26:22,680
Speaker 5: Right.

3812
03:26:23,360 --> 03:26:25,720
Speaker 4: This huge win for the woke Marxist pope as well.

3813
03:26:25,879 --> 03:26:26,800
Speaker 4: It's always good to see.

3814
03:26:27,080 --> 03:26:27,320
Speaker 5: Yep.

3815
03:26:27,440 --> 03:26:30,880
Speaker 4: Hell yeah, huge win for Marxism this week. Yeah, generally

3816
03:26:30,920 --> 03:26:35,080
Speaker 4: a big week for Marxism in other years. A district

3817
03:26:35,120 --> 03:26:39,400
Speaker 4: court has ordered another man, Geordian, Alexander Melga Saint Maron,

3818
03:26:40,040 --> 03:26:45,200
Speaker 4: returned from El Salvador. He's Salvadorian, but he was removed

3819
03:26:45,520 --> 03:26:50,320
Speaker 4: thirteen minutes after a court order barred his removal and

3820
03:26:50,360 --> 03:26:52,760
Speaker 4: thus he was removed in violation of that court order right,

3821
03:26:52,760 --> 03:26:56,160
Speaker 4: and the District Court has ordered him returned. I'm not

3822
03:26:56,200 --> 03:26:59,320
Speaker 4: aware if he's being returned yet. On Wednesday, we shall see,

3823
03:26:59,400 --> 03:27:03,480
Speaker 4: I guess, because the Supreme Court has allowed the Trump

3824
03:27:03,480 --> 03:27:07,959
Speaker 4: administration this week to continue removing migrants to countries which

3825
03:27:07,959 --> 03:27:12,240
Speaker 4: are not specifically noted on their removal orders. We spoke

3826
03:27:12,280 --> 03:27:14,959
Speaker 4: about this before, in the case of the attempt of

3827
03:27:15,000 --> 03:27:18,520
Speaker 4: the DODA to remove people to South Sudan. We've spoken

3828
03:27:18,520 --> 03:27:20,879
Speaker 4: about it in terms of removing people to El Salvador

3829
03:27:20,920 --> 03:27:24,119
Speaker 4: who are not themselves salvad are in right. This isn't

3830
03:27:24,120 --> 03:27:26,600
Speaker 4: really deportation, and I think rendition is a more accurate

3831
03:27:26,600 --> 03:27:29,640
Speaker 4: way to describe it. And it will certainly result in

3832
03:27:29,680 --> 03:27:33,040
Speaker 4: people facing hardship and more likely than not, people facing

3833
03:27:33,080 --> 03:27:34,560
Speaker 4: torture and probably being killed.

3834
03:27:35,440 --> 03:27:37,400
Speaker 5: It is a disaster.

3835
03:27:38,080 --> 03:27:40,320
Speaker 4: It was a very short and unsigned order, and the

3836
03:27:40,480 --> 03:27:43,000
Speaker 4: justices that it wasn't a final decision right, that they

3837
03:27:43,120 --> 03:27:47,520
Speaker 4: paused the Massachusetts District Court ruling, which had in turn

3838
03:27:48,040 --> 03:27:52,279
Speaker 4: paused the process. So the process is now ongoing again.

3839
03:27:52,760 --> 03:27:55,800
Speaker 4: It's worth noting that the Massachusetts District Court ruling didn't

3840
03:27:56,400 --> 03:28:01,320
Speaker 4: stop them doing it, it allowed them a meaning attempt

3841
03:28:01,480 --> 03:28:04,279
Speaker 4: at expressing their reasonable fear of torture.

3842
03:28:04,800 --> 03:28:05,000
Speaker 1: Right.

3843
03:28:05,640 --> 03:28:10,800
Speaker 4: Three justices dissented, so to Mayor, Kigan and Jackson. So

3844
03:28:10,840 --> 03:28:13,200
Speaker 4: to Mayor wrote the descent, I'm going to quote from

3845
03:28:13,200 --> 03:28:16,920
Speaker 4: it here briefly, apparently quote the Court finds the idea

3846
03:28:16,959 --> 03:28:19,879
Speaker 4: that thousands will suffer violence in far flung locales more

3847
03:28:19,920 --> 03:28:23,199
Speaker 4: palatable than the remote possibility that a district court exceeded

3848
03:28:23,240 --> 03:28:26,280
Speaker 4: its remedial powers when it ordered the government to provide

3849
03:28:26,360 --> 03:28:30,080
Speaker 4: notice and process to which the plaintiffs are constitutionally and

3850
03:28:30,160 --> 03:28:34,920
Speaker 4: statutorily entitled. As she pointed out, the government was seeking

3851
03:28:34,959 --> 03:28:37,520
Speaker 4: relief from this order in Supreme Court, but had also

3852
03:28:37,560 --> 03:28:42,520
Speaker 4: been openly flouting here right. This flouting of lower court

3853
03:28:42,600 --> 03:28:46,840
Speaker 4: orders lines up with a res Ruvenni, a DOJ lawyer

3854
03:28:47,040 --> 03:28:50,840
Speaker 4: who was fired for I guess not following the DOJ

3855
03:28:51,000 --> 03:28:55,879
Speaker 4: line in the Aberdegogavcia case. He filed a whistleblower complaint

3856
03:28:55,879 --> 03:29:00,120
Speaker 4: in Congress this week that the NAT has seen. You

3857
03:29:00,160 --> 03:29:02,240
Speaker 4: can read the whole article in the show notes, but

3858
03:29:02,680 --> 03:29:06,720
Speaker 4: in there you can hear Emil Bouvet, who's he was

3859
03:29:06,760 --> 03:29:09,120
Speaker 4: Trump's personal Laura in twenty twenty three. Trump is now

3860
03:29:09,520 --> 03:29:12,840
Speaker 4: nominated him to be a judge, but he tells DOJ

3861
03:29:13,040 --> 03:29:16,400
Speaker 4: lawyers that they need to be open to responding fuck

3862
03:29:16,520 --> 03:29:21,160
Speaker 4: you to court orders. The allegations in a whistleblower complaint

3863
03:29:21,160 --> 03:29:24,800
Speaker 4: are pretty concerning, right in terms of the ability of

3864
03:29:25,520 --> 03:29:28,600
Speaker 4: the courts to stop the DOJ doing anything. I would

3865
03:29:28,720 --> 03:29:30,200
Speaker 4: urge you to read it. It's going to be linked

3866
03:29:30,240 --> 03:29:31,440
Speaker 4: in the show notes. We don't really have time to

3867
03:29:31,440 --> 03:29:33,080
Speaker 4: summarize all of it here, but I think I think

3868
03:29:33,120 --> 03:29:35,600
Speaker 4: the fuck you comment summarizes it pretty well.

3869
03:29:35,879 --> 03:29:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking of things that you should buy, here's ads.

3870
03:29:52,280 --> 03:29:56,240
Speaker 2: We're back, And since we've just done ads, let's let

3871
03:29:56,360 --> 03:29:58,960
Speaker 2: James give an ad for something that's not a product

3872
03:29:59,040 --> 03:30:03,080
Speaker 2: or service but as better yeah things, if you have

3873
03:30:03,120 --> 03:30:04,039
Speaker 2: any money left.

3874
03:30:03,840 --> 03:30:07,720
Speaker 4: After investing in all the wonderful goal their appetites to

3875
03:30:07,760 --> 03:30:09,920
Speaker 4: want to sell you. One of the people who we

3876
03:30:09,920 --> 03:30:13,080
Speaker 4: have interviewed on this show extensively, who came into the

3877
03:30:13,160 --> 03:30:17,680
Speaker 4: Artistrates through Acumba and who provided us with a really

3878
03:30:18,080 --> 03:30:21,200
Speaker 4: in depth account of his immigration detention, has let me

3879
03:30:21,240 --> 03:30:24,879
Speaker 4: know that he is struggling to find a lawyer and

3880
03:30:24,920 --> 03:30:27,160
Speaker 4: pay for a lawyer. So far, he's been taking care

3881
03:30:27,200 --> 03:30:30,400
Speaker 4: of all of his legal paperwork himself, which is very admirable,

3882
03:30:30,600 --> 03:30:33,520
Speaker 4: but obviously, like many migrants, he understands his chance of

3883
03:30:33,560 --> 03:30:35,680
Speaker 4: the success will be much much better with a lawyer,

3884
03:30:36,160 --> 03:30:39,080
Speaker 4: something he himself is struggling to pay for right now

3885
03:30:39,080 --> 03:30:43,440
Speaker 4: whilst also supporting a family. If you would like to help,

3886
03:30:43,720 --> 03:30:48,119
Speaker 4: the link for that is www dot GoFundMe dot com

3887
03:30:48,160 --> 03:30:52,960
Speaker 4: slash f slash Standing with our Family. It will also

3888
03:30:53,040 --> 03:30:57,000
Speaker 4: be the first link in the sources for this episode,

3889
03:30:57,000 --> 03:30:59,080
Speaker 4: so if you're listening on your podcast app, you can

3890
03:30:59,080 --> 03:31:00,959
Speaker 4: scroll down to the show to find it that click

3891
03:31:01,000 --> 03:31:02,600
Speaker 4: it and help out if you'd like to.

3892
03:31:04,000 --> 03:31:04,280
Speaker 5: Well.

3893
03:31:04,360 --> 03:31:07,039
Speaker 9: I think it's time for Gahre's good news round up,

3894
03:31:07,200 --> 03:31:11,880
Speaker 9: and let's start with some actually like fantastic news. My

3895
03:31:11,959 --> 03:31:15,640
Speaker 9: mood Khalil has been released after one hundred and four

3896
03:31:15,840 --> 03:31:17,640
Speaker 9: days in ice custody.

3897
03:31:18,840 --> 03:31:21,840
Speaker 5: He missed the birth of his first child.

3898
03:31:22,440 --> 03:31:24,640
Speaker 4: Was it his first time meeting his child? Did he

3899
03:31:24,680 --> 03:31:25,480
Speaker 4: get to meet his child?

3900
03:31:26,040 --> 03:31:28,760
Speaker 2: I think he'd gotten one visit where he got to

3901
03:31:28,800 --> 03:31:31,880
Speaker 2: meet his kid, if if I'm remembering directly, it's still

3902
03:31:31,920 --> 03:31:34,960
Speaker 2: kind of about two thirds of the way through his detainment.

3903
03:31:35,320 --> 03:31:39,160
Speaker 9: But now he is back in New York as his

3904
03:31:39,280 --> 03:31:42,320
Speaker 9: case will continue. This is a good step in the

3905
03:31:42,400 --> 03:31:46,000
Speaker 9: fight against disappearing people for political differences.

3906
03:31:46,240 --> 03:31:47,240
Speaker 5: Like, this is important.

3907
03:31:47,800 --> 03:31:49,959
Speaker 9: This is possibly like the one of the most important

3908
03:31:50,200 --> 03:31:54,960
Speaker 9: national pieces of news. That's still a developing story right now.

3909
03:31:55,080 --> 03:31:57,600
Speaker 2: I've seen some responses that are like, yeah, so after

3910
03:31:57,640 --> 03:32:00,160
Speaker 2: one hundred and four days of being illegally detained and

3911
03:32:00,400 --> 03:32:03,720
Speaker 2: you know, a guy finally got released, this is still

3912
03:32:03,720 --> 03:32:05,920
Speaker 2: a bad thing, And like that's true, this is a

3913
03:32:05,959 --> 03:32:08,800
Speaker 2: bleak story. But like it's actually kind of like foolish

3914
03:32:09,000 --> 03:32:12,240
Speaker 2: to not acknowledge this as a significant win, right, Like,

3915
03:32:12,680 --> 03:32:13,359
Speaker 2: it's important.

3916
03:32:13,440 --> 03:32:14,640
Speaker 5: They did not want to release him.

3917
03:32:14,640 --> 03:32:17,360
Speaker 9: They wanted to keep him, Yeah, forever, they did not

3918
03:32:17,520 --> 03:32:18,640
Speaker 9: want to release him.

3919
03:32:18,800 --> 03:32:21,959
Speaker 2: Yes, this is good. This is a good thing, and

3920
03:32:22,000 --> 03:32:24,720
Speaker 2: it's proof that it is worth fighting because you can win.

3921
03:32:25,200 --> 03:32:26,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like every.

3922
03:32:26,280 --> 03:32:27,960
Speaker 4: Day he's not in jail and that he's with his

3923
03:32:28,040 --> 03:32:29,480
Speaker 4: family is a better day.

3924
03:32:29,560 --> 03:32:32,120
Speaker 5: Yes, is a win. Yeah, it's a victory. Yes.

3925
03:32:32,840 --> 03:32:36,720
Speaker 9: Also some good news in New York it is so

3926
03:32:37,120 --> 03:32:42,440
Speaker 9: clover Soran Mamdani won the Democratic primary for the mayor

3927
03:32:42,600 --> 03:32:45,600
Speaker 9: of New York City Tuesday night.

3928
03:32:46,360 --> 03:32:47,480
Speaker 5: This is quite exciting.

3929
03:32:47,840 --> 03:32:49,600
Speaker 9: I got to announce to a massive room full of

3930
03:32:49,600 --> 03:32:53,720
Speaker 9: trans people that Cuomo conceded to Zoron, and I have

3931
03:32:53,840 --> 03:32:55,720
Speaker 9: not felt better in months.

3932
03:32:55,920 --> 03:32:58,640
Speaker 5: It was like one of the one of the one

3933
03:32:58,640 --> 03:32:58,959
Speaker 5: of the.

3934
03:32:58,840 --> 03:33:01,879
Speaker 9: Brightest rays of hope that we've had, and a rejection

3935
03:33:02,080 --> 03:33:06,000
Speaker 9: of like the old Democratic Party establishment. Yes, Zoron had

3936
03:33:06,000 --> 03:33:09,320
Speaker 9: to beat like thirty million dollars of super pac funding

3937
03:33:09,440 --> 03:33:13,520
Speaker 9: against him. He mobilized the youth vote in ways we've

3938
03:33:13,560 --> 03:33:16,440
Speaker 9: never seen before in New York. A quarter of early

3939
03:33:16,560 --> 03:33:21,200
Speaker 9: voters for first time that Democratic primary participants. Zoron ran

3940
03:33:21,280 --> 03:33:25,400
Speaker 9: a very very solid campaign with slick videos online and

3941
03:33:25,440 --> 03:33:31,119
Speaker 9: on TV, multi language outreach, fifty thousand like on street volunteers, canvassing,

3942
03:33:31,280 --> 03:33:34,959
Speaker 9: door knocks, phone baking, and a distinct focus on affordability,

3943
03:33:35,040 --> 03:33:38,720
Speaker 9: including freezing rent, free buses, pilot program for city run

3944
03:33:38,760 --> 03:33:42,240
Speaker 9: grocery stores, free to low cost childcare, raising minimum wage,

3945
03:33:42,360 --> 03:33:46,760
Speaker 9: and resisting Trump's efforts to use ice to deport New Yorkers.

3946
03:33:47,120 --> 03:33:49,879
Speaker 9: Myself and Mia did a full episode yesterday if you

3947
03:33:49,920 --> 03:33:52,600
Speaker 9: want to have a more in depth look at the

3948
03:33:52,680 --> 03:33:54,280
Speaker 9: New York mayor roal primary.

3949
03:33:54,840 --> 03:33:55,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3950
03:33:55,480 --> 03:33:59,240
Speaker 2: We should also note here that per acbs New York

3951
03:33:59,680 --> 03:34:03,280
Speaker 2: inner with former Governor Cuomo. He has stated that he

3952
03:34:03,360 --> 03:34:06,800
Speaker 2: is considering running against Mom Donnie as an independent, So

3953
03:34:06,879 --> 03:34:09,200
Speaker 2: we'll see how that goes. We might get to see

3954
03:34:09,240 --> 03:34:12,160
Speaker 2: Cuomo lose twice in a year, which would be pretty funny.

3955
03:34:12,920 --> 03:34:14,879
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I would be surprised if he

3956
03:34:14,920 --> 03:34:18,200
Speaker 9: actually decides to run in the general. A lot of

3957
03:34:18,440 --> 03:34:22,040
Speaker 9: like like Ackman is going behind Adams. It seems they're

3958
03:34:22,080 --> 03:34:25,720
Speaker 9: certainly going to be targeting from like Republicans and maybe

3959
03:34:25,720 --> 03:34:27,440
Speaker 9: even some den like establishments.

3960
03:34:27,680 --> 03:34:29,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure definitely.

3961
03:34:29,240 --> 03:34:31,800
Speaker 9: So to like remove Zoran as like a viable candidate,

3962
03:34:31,840 --> 03:34:35,040
Speaker 9: they're going to pull out some crazy like red scare

3963
03:34:35,160 --> 03:34:37,959
Speaker 9: communist shit from the fifties. Absolutely, they might try to

3964
03:34:38,040 --> 03:34:41,800
Speaker 9: remove his legal status as a citizen, like they're gonna

3965
03:34:41,800 --> 03:34:45,160
Speaker 9: pull out the stops. But this is like after the

3966
03:34:45,160 --> 03:34:48,119
Speaker 9: twenty twenty four election. This is like the first first

3967
03:34:48,160 --> 03:34:51,480
Speaker 9: like clear look at what a new Democratic Party could

3968
03:34:51,520 --> 03:34:54,760
Speaker 9: look like. And right now is the face of Zorrong.

3969
03:34:54,920 --> 03:34:56,720
Speaker 9: Yeah that's all I have.

3970
03:34:57,480 --> 03:35:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, it's nice to see a win again.

3971
03:35:01,680 --> 03:35:04,760
Speaker 2: It's like the Mahud Khalil thing, right, It's it's nice, absolutely,

3972
03:35:04,840 --> 03:35:07,720
Speaker 2: like this is this is good things can happen now?

3973
03:35:08,040 --> 03:35:10,400
Speaker 2: Does this mean is this a part of a fucking

3974
03:35:10,480 --> 03:35:13,760
Speaker 2: progressive wave that's sweeping the country. Does this prove that,

3975
03:35:14,200 --> 03:35:17,480
Speaker 2: you know, being pro Palestine and pro trans is the

3976
03:35:17,520 --> 03:35:20,720
Speaker 2: best electoral strategy in one hundred percent of districts? Now,

3977
03:35:20,879 --> 03:35:23,080
Speaker 2: like this is this is New York. We like, this

3978
03:35:23,160 --> 03:35:26,440
Speaker 2: is one election, but it's like good news and it

3979
03:35:26,600 --> 03:35:29,320
Speaker 2: it I think it there's a very solid possibility that

3980
03:35:29,360 --> 03:35:32,000
Speaker 2: we will see this as like part of a growing

3981
03:35:32,040 --> 03:35:37,879
Speaker 2: trend that when candidates are actually left wing and unabashedly so,

3982
03:35:38,080 --> 03:35:40,200
Speaker 2: when they don't try to tack to the middle, when

3983
03:35:40,200 --> 03:35:43,720
Speaker 2: they don't try to embrace you know, a hodgepodge of

3984
03:35:44,240 --> 03:35:47,440
Speaker 2: like contradictory policies in order to please some sort of

3985
03:35:47,480 --> 03:35:52,200
Speaker 2: like farcical median theoretical median voter, that they do better.

3986
03:35:52,280 --> 03:35:54,560
Speaker 2: I do think that, like maybe that's what we'll see.

3987
03:35:54,560 --> 03:35:57,520
Speaker 2: But you know, obviously one election in New York City

3988
03:35:57,640 --> 03:35:59,840
Speaker 2: is not a one one primary in New York City

3989
03:36:00,120 --> 03:36:02,320
Speaker 2: isn't enough to prove that like this is going to

3990
03:36:02,400 --> 03:36:04,560
Speaker 2: be the same kind of thing we see nationwide.

3991
03:36:04,920 --> 03:36:07,080
Speaker 5: I mean, but it did show how to mobilize like

3992
03:36:07,480 --> 03:36:10,040
Speaker 5: a huge number of like young people and like a

3993
03:36:10,040 --> 03:36:12,240
Speaker 5: lot of a lot of like young men, which which

3994
03:36:12,280 --> 03:36:14,240
Speaker 5: the Democratic Party has been like whining about for the

3995
03:36:14,240 --> 03:36:14,800
Speaker 5: past few.

3996
03:36:14,640 --> 03:36:17,080
Speaker 2: Months, terrible about Yeah, and that's a big.

3997
03:36:16,920 --> 03:36:20,240
Speaker 9: Deal, Like how do we reach out to the young

3998
03:36:20,280 --> 03:36:23,640
Speaker 9: men in this country? And like Zoron showed you how

3999
03:36:23,640 --> 03:36:25,760
Speaker 9: to do this, it's actually fighting for like real things

4000
03:36:25,800 --> 03:36:26,760
Speaker 9: that make your life better.

4001
03:36:26,879 --> 03:36:30,520
Speaker 2: You can get people excited about your candidacy. If you're

4002
03:36:30,600 --> 03:36:33,680
Speaker 2: standing for something and getting people excited, it's even more

4003
03:36:33,720 --> 03:36:36,520
Speaker 2: important than just being like, well, this theoretically polls the best,

4004
03:36:36,520 --> 03:36:38,840
Speaker 2: because if you do take all the positions that poll well,

4005
03:36:39,080 --> 03:36:41,240
Speaker 2: but nobody gives a shit and you don't have any

4006
03:36:41,360 --> 03:36:44,320
Speaker 2: kind of excitement or the ability to build like a

4007
03:36:44,360 --> 03:36:47,600
Speaker 2: grassroots ground game, then you'll do worse. Like if you

4008
03:36:47,720 --> 03:36:50,440
Speaker 2: have that behind you, if you have all that enthusiasm,

4009
03:36:50,760 --> 03:36:55,160
Speaker 2: you can make less popular positions more popular. That's how

4010
03:36:55,360 --> 03:36:59,880
Speaker 2: politics works, right, Look at Trump, you know, like the

4011
03:37:00,120 --> 03:37:02,040
Speaker 2: whole everyone's always wondering like how does he get away

4012
03:37:02,080 --> 03:37:03,959
Speaker 2: with all these things that were forbidden for so long?

4013
03:37:04,440 --> 03:37:07,080
Speaker 2: Is because he had a lot of enthusiasm behind them,

4014
03:37:07,080 --> 03:37:10,160
Speaker 2: and that wave allowed him to push a bunch of boundaries.

4015
03:37:10,200 --> 03:37:11,879
Speaker 5: And like that's how it works.

4016
03:37:11,959 --> 03:37:14,720
Speaker 2: It can work the other way too, if you try,

4017
03:37:15,000 --> 03:37:17,720
Speaker 2: if you're not just gutless if you're not a fucking shumer.

4018
03:37:18,959 --> 03:37:21,480
Speaker 12: So in less good news and the less good news,

4019
03:37:21,520 --> 03:37:25,879
Speaker 12: I mean really really horrible news, terrible news. Yeah, So

4020
03:37:25,959 --> 03:37:28,560
Speaker 12: last week we got the results of the United States

4021
03:37:28,640 --> 03:37:33,359
Speaker 12: versus Gremetti. I think most trans people have been expecting

4022
03:37:33,400 --> 03:37:35,920
Speaker 12: that this was going to be really bad, but it was.

4023
03:37:36,200 --> 03:37:39,120
Speaker 12: It was I guess technically not as bad as it

4024
03:37:39,200 --> 03:37:43,800
Speaker 12: theoretically could have been, but this ruling was. There's a six'

4025
03:37:43,920 --> 03:37:48,400
Speaker 12: three ruling that Upholds tennessee's yeah ban on gender affirming

4026
03:37:48,440 --> 03:37:52,880
Speaker 12: care for. Minors that ban IS i mean just like hideously.

4027
03:37:53,280 --> 03:37:57,519
Speaker 12: Illegal it's like very obviously ces. Discrimination The Supreme court

4028
03:37:57,840 --> 03:38:03,480
Speaker 12: gave genuinely LIKE i had a friend described, as like

4029
03:38:03,520 --> 03:38:07,360
Speaker 12: we're just in Pure calvin ball, Land like it's if

4030
03:38:07,400 --> 03:38:08,720
Speaker 12: you read the, decision it's fucking.

4031
03:38:08,800 --> 03:38:11,400
Speaker 5: Nonsense it's. Gibberish that also.

4032
03:38:11,160 --> 03:38:13,280
Speaker 12: Makes it hard to figure out what's gonna do because

4033
03:38:13,320 --> 03:38:16,240
Speaker 12: the legal reasoning is just so unbelievably.

4034
03:38:16,320 --> 03:38:19,920
Speaker 9: Nonsense like it leaves it it leaves in place the

4035
03:38:20,120 --> 03:38:25,080
Speaker 9: twenty twenty ruling on sex discrimination in the workplace for

4036
03:38:25,120 --> 03:38:29,520
Speaker 9: trans people, intact but it invents this new justification that

4037
03:38:30,080 --> 03:38:33,000
Speaker 9: you can discriminate against trans people if you're discriminating against

4038
03:38:33,440 --> 03:38:38,240
Speaker 9: gender dysphoria as a diagnosis specifically not necessarily them being,

4039
03:38:38,360 --> 03:38:41,240
Speaker 9: trans but but the ability to treat gender.

4040
03:38:41,320 --> 03:38:44,120
Speaker 5: Dysphoria, yeah it's it's really really fucking.

4041
03:38:44,160 --> 03:38:47,879
Speaker 12: Weird i'm probably gonna do like a full episode looking

4042
03:38:47,920 --> 03:38:50,240
Speaker 12: at like like bringing into actual legal people to talk

4043
03:38:50,280 --> 03:38:53,199
Speaker 12: about with degal. Impacts you're going to be this is really.

4044
03:38:53,240 --> 03:38:56,760
Speaker 12: Bad this means that like twenty five states bans on

4045
03:38:56,800 --> 03:38:58,320
Speaker 12: gender firming care go into.

4046
03:38:58,400 --> 03:39:01,119
Speaker 5: Effect. Yeah one of the.

4047
03:39:00,800 --> 03:39:03,640
Speaker 12: Worst parts of, this right is that you, know and

4048
03:39:03,720 --> 03:39:05,840
Speaker 12: this is this is one of the biggest issues with

4049
03:39:05,920 --> 03:39:08,320
Speaker 12: like targeting and trans kids in, general is that just

4050
03:39:08,360 --> 03:39:10,520
Speaker 12: the structure of the family and if childhood makes it

4051
03:39:10,720 --> 03:39:14,000
Speaker 12: really hard to help these kids because they're significantly more

4052
03:39:14,080 --> 03:39:17,440
Speaker 12: isolated than. Transadults, right it's harder for trans kids to find.

4053
03:39:17,440 --> 03:39:20,320
Speaker 12: Community it's harder for the community to find, Them. Yep

4054
03:39:20,520 --> 03:39:22,600
Speaker 12: and because of the structures in place, here like they

4055
03:39:22,600 --> 03:39:24,480
Speaker 12: are denied the autonomy to keep. Living and if their

4056
03:39:24,520 --> 03:39:28,280
Speaker 12: parents decide to just be like fuck, you we're just

4057
03:39:28,320 --> 03:39:30,120
Speaker 12: doing we're going to do conversion therapy on you by

4058
03:39:30,160 --> 03:39:33,480
Speaker 12: refusing to let you, transition they can do, that and

4059
03:39:34,040 --> 03:39:35,440
Speaker 12: it's extremely hard to resist.

4060
03:39:35,440 --> 03:39:40,560
Speaker 2: It, yeah the root of so much, AUTHORITARIANISM i would, argue,

4061
03:39:40,560 --> 03:39:44,440
Speaker 2: like the absolute core of the fascist movement is the

4062
03:39:44,480 --> 03:39:47,960
Speaker 2: idea that parents own their. Children, yeah and that like

4063
03:39:48,040 --> 03:39:51,200
Speaker 2: that is the most that is the single most important

4064
03:39:51,200 --> 03:39:54,120
Speaker 2: property right that, exists is your ownership of.

4065
03:39:54,280 --> 03:39:56,360
Speaker 4: Kids i'm going to, say it's bed time if we

4066
03:39:56,440 --> 03:39:58,000
Speaker 4: ready get to the core of, it isn't, It, Robert,

4067
03:39:58,200 --> 03:39:58,760
Speaker 4: yeah it's.

4068
03:39:59,040 --> 03:40:02,240
Speaker 9: No robert's go in full like no future queer, Theory

4069
03:40:02,280 --> 03:40:04,039
Speaker 9: LIKE I i agree with.

4070
03:40:04,080 --> 03:40:07,119
Speaker 2: You, no he's, Right, no this is THE i don't

4071
03:40:07,120 --> 03:40:09,440
Speaker 2: think this is even debatable as someone who has raised.

4072
03:40:09,440 --> 03:40:11,879
Speaker 2: It it's this and it's it's not a simple, problem

4073
03:40:11,959 --> 03:40:15,800
Speaker 2: right because like kids are not adults and shouldn't like

4074
03:40:15,920 --> 03:40:19,440
Speaker 2: have full autonomy about, choices like you, know because they'll

4075
03:40:19,680 --> 03:40:21,959
Speaker 2: they don't understand the world. Fully there's a degree to

4076
03:40:21,959 --> 03:40:23,959
Speaker 2: which kids need to be like.

4077
03:40:24,480 --> 03:40:27,000
Speaker 9: Guided, yeah you should stop a child if they're gonna

4078
03:40:27,000 --> 03:40:29,119
Speaker 9: walk into the street and get hit by a, bus right,

4079
03:40:29,280 --> 03:40:31,320
Speaker 9: yeah like grab a fire or.

4080
03:40:31,280 --> 03:40:34,560
Speaker 2: If they only want to eat candy for, dinner, Right,

4081
03:40:34,640 --> 03:40:38,160
Speaker 2: like that's there are. Limits but the idea that like

4082
03:40:38,320 --> 03:40:41,920
Speaker 2: and so parents own their, kids they're like that that

4083
03:40:42,160 --> 03:40:44,560
Speaker 2: is just it's pure poison and it's killing us.

4084
03:40:44,600 --> 03:40:47,120
Speaker 4: All and like more, broadly like guys who hate that

4085
03:40:47,280 --> 03:40:49,240
Speaker 4: kids are the fucking full front.

4086
03:40:49,080 --> 03:40:49,959
Speaker 5: Of fascism right.

4087
03:40:49,959 --> 03:40:53,520
Speaker 4: Now like, Yeah Elon musk Bought twitter because he hates his, Daughter,

4088
03:40:53,640 --> 03:40:56,440
Speaker 4: yes more more than if any any other. Thing like

4089
03:40:56,680 --> 03:41:00,000
Speaker 4: it's uh, yeah it's a repugnant. Ideology it's just.

4090
03:41:00,040 --> 03:41:01,040
Speaker 5: Gusting. Yeah.

4091
03:41:01,120 --> 03:41:04,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway we'll do some sort of more detailed look

4092
03:41:04,680 --> 03:41:06,840
Speaker 2: at this that like that at some, point BUT i

4093
03:41:07,120 --> 03:41:09,320
Speaker 2: think we've you, know covered the.

4094
03:41:09,360 --> 03:41:11,600
Speaker 12: News, YEAH i, MEAN i think the last the last

4095
03:41:11,640 --> 03:41:12,920
Speaker 12: THING i want to say about that is like if

4096
03:41:12,959 --> 03:41:14,760
Speaker 12: your trends AND i know this was a bigger thing

4097
03:41:15,360 --> 03:41:18,119
Speaker 12: and the immediate wake of last, week but keep.

4098
03:41:18,200 --> 03:41:23,720
Speaker 2: Living yeah, yeah, yeah stay. Alive maybe get a passport

4099
03:41:24,000 --> 03:41:25,880
Speaker 2: because you can do that right. Now there's a lot

4100
03:41:25,920 --> 03:41:27,680
Speaker 2: of benefit even if you're not going to, travel if

4101
03:41:27,680 --> 03:41:29,119
Speaker 2: you don't have the money to, travel there's a lot

4102
03:41:29,120 --> 03:41:30,160
Speaker 2: of benefit in having that.

4103
03:41:30,240 --> 03:41:30,440
Speaker 5: Id.

4104
03:41:31,120 --> 03:41:33,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah we're all going to see the sun rice

4105
03:41:33,640 --> 03:41:35,840
Speaker 12: together like we, are and it's going to be.

4106
03:41:35,840 --> 03:41:38,840
Speaker 9: Beautiful but do you know who won't is a man

4107
03:41:38,879 --> 03:41:42,000
Speaker 9: From norway who will probably never be seeing The United

4108
03:41:42,000 --> 03:41:42,720
Speaker 9: states ever.

4109
03:41:42,920 --> 03:41:47,720
Speaker 2: Again, god oh my, God, Okay, Garrison.

4110
03:41:47,840 --> 03:41:49,720
Speaker 9: So to finish this, episode we're going to talk about

4111
03:41:49,720 --> 03:41:52,000
Speaker 9: the one deportation we're kind of allowed to laugh. At

4112
03:41:52,400 --> 03:41:54,879
Speaker 9: not because the guy is. Bad the guy seems perfectly,

4113
03:41:54,920 --> 03:41:58,480
Speaker 9: fine but the circumstances around the deportation are so. Bizarre

4114
03:41:58,600 --> 03:42:02,080
Speaker 9: it's wild shit and it Affects. Norway so it's you,

4115
03:42:02,120 --> 03:42:06,920
Speaker 9: know it's like, Whatever garrison Anti norwegian, ACTION o no

4116
03:42:06,959 --> 03:42:09,320
Speaker 9: offense To. Norway i'm just, like it's it's not like

4117
03:42:09,360 --> 03:42:11,320
Speaker 9: this guy's getting deported to a place where he's in.

4118
03:42:11,440 --> 03:42:14,119
Speaker 4: DANGER i love You, norwegians even If garrison.

4119
03:42:14,160 --> 03:42:16,800
Speaker 2: Doesn't this is not a guy who's going to. Suffer

4120
03:42:17,000 --> 03:42:19,760
Speaker 2: he's not going To South, suda, beer life threatening or.

4121
03:42:19,760 --> 03:42:20,400
Speaker 2: Whatever he's.

4122
03:42:20,440 --> 03:42:20,800
Speaker 5: Fine.

4123
03:42:20,920 --> 03:42:23,000
Speaker 9: YEAH A norwegian man was coming to The United states

4124
03:42:23,000 --> 03:42:26,240
Speaker 9: for vacation and at the border check point AT i Think,

4125
03:42:26,560 --> 03:42:31,760
Speaker 9: newark he was questioned and handed over his. Phone on the,

4126
03:42:31,840 --> 03:42:38,119
Speaker 9: phone porter agents found a photoshopped picture of BABY JD

4127
03:42:38,440 --> 03:42:42,360
Speaker 9: v sorry of bald BABY jd. Vance yeah, yeah and

4128
03:42:42,760 --> 03:42:47,160
Speaker 9: for this, reason BABY jd denied entry into into The

4129
03:42:47,280 --> 03:42:49,959
Speaker 9: United states and deported back to Your.

4130
03:42:51,480 --> 03:42:52,360
Speaker 5: Thomas country On.

4131
03:42:52,400 --> 03:42:56,640
Speaker 2: Earth. Anyway said photo has now been shown in The

4132
03:42:56,680 --> 03:43:00,920
Speaker 2: Irish parliament because we live in it's beautif the world's.

4133
03:43:00,959 --> 03:43:06,040
Speaker 9: Beautiful they're Deporting norwegians for Jd vance. Memes, now this

4134
03:43:06,120 --> 03:43:10,000
Speaker 9: is the level that we're, At like The party Of

4135
03:43:10,040 --> 03:43:15,360
Speaker 9: Free speech deporting people who has have Jd vance memes

4136
03:43:15,440 --> 03:43:15,960
Speaker 9: on their.

4137
03:43:16,000 --> 03:43:19,119
Speaker 12: Phone, like on the one, HAND i think you can

4138
03:43:19,200 --> 03:43:21,840
Speaker 12: make the argument that fascism has always been this, stupid

4139
03:43:22,040 --> 03:43:26,160
Speaker 12: like google Google mussolini's headquarters and look at that.

4140
03:43:26,200 --> 03:43:30,160
Speaker 5: Building is this? Dumb but, like good, lord LIKE i,

4141
03:43:30,320 --> 03:43:31,959
Speaker 5: just oh my, GOD i have personal.

4142
03:43:32,080 --> 03:43:35,600
Speaker 12: Vanity there's such fucking tiny babies about. It like that's,

4143
03:43:35,640 --> 03:43:38,400
Speaker 12: like that's like the really defining characteristic of this era

4144
03:43:38,480 --> 03:43:40,760
Speaker 12: of fascism is that if you make fun of them

4145
03:43:40,879 --> 03:43:43,400
Speaker 12: the tiniest, bit it is the worst consequences they've ever

4146
03:43:43,400 --> 03:43:46,160
Speaker 12: stuffed in their entire, lives and they fucking lose their

4147
03:43:46,240 --> 03:43:47,879
Speaker 12: mind that everyone doesn't fucking love.

4148
03:43:47,920 --> 03:43:51,000
Speaker 9: Them, yeah they they're they're fully like willing and like

4149
03:43:51,240 --> 03:43:54,879
Speaker 9: desire to use the complete might of the states to

4150
03:43:55,400 --> 03:43:58,920
Speaker 9: uh to step on anyone who dares defy their, authority

4151
03:43:58,959 --> 03:44:02,200
Speaker 9: even even when that defiance is manifested through having a

4152
03:44:02,240 --> 03:44:07,000
Speaker 9: picture of baby Jd vance with a bald head like,

4153
03:44:07,080 --> 03:44:09,840
Speaker 9: that that is too. FAR i DON'T i don't know

4154
03:44:09,840 --> 03:44:11,680
Speaker 9: what else to say about bald BABY Jd.

4155
03:44:11,800 --> 03:44:15,160
Speaker 2: Fance you, know get get a, tattoo get a full

4156
03:44:15,240 --> 03:44:18,840
Speaker 2: facial tattoo or like a bin afflet.

4157
03:44:20,720 --> 03:44:23,320
Speaker 5: Denaturalized for YOUR jd events back.

4158
03:44:23,400 --> 03:44:27,800
Speaker 2: Tattoo you can't punish you not for a. Tattoo, no it,

4159
03:44:27,879 --> 03:44:28,120
Speaker 2: is it.

4160
03:44:28,240 --> 03:44:30,840
Speaker 9: Is it is funny how much vans in the border

4161
03:44:30,879 --> 03:44:33,400
Speaker 9: patrol do not understand the barber strikes that in. Effect

4162
03:44:33,720 --> 03:44:37,400
Speaker 9: this picture is now. Everywhere it shows how how HURT.

4163
03:44:37,480 --> 03:44:40,879
Speaker 9: Jd fance is by these, photoshops even though he's tried

4164
03:44:40,879 --> 03:44:41,880
Speaker 9: to laugh along in the.

4165
03:44:41,920 --> 03:44:45,440
Speaker 4: Past, Yeah i'd love to, know like how is there

4166
03:44:45,440 --> 03:44:49,480
Speaker 4: a directive that has come? Down like no streams did

4167
03:44:49,560 --> 03:44:51,680
Speaker 4: some like office and field operations, guy.

4168
03:44:51,760 --> 03:44:54,560
Speaker 9: Did they send it up To Stephen miller with like Hey,

4169
03:44:54,560 --> 03:44:55,240
Speaker 9: steven is this?

4170
03:44:55,360 --> 03:44:56,920
Speaker 5: Okay it seems like, no, no, no.

4171
03:44:56,800 --> 03:45:00,160
Speaker 4: It's somewhere a take offence on behalf Of Vaughan's like

4172
03:45:00,320 --> 03:45:01,040
Speaker 4: that could be very.

4173
03:45:01,080 --> 03:45:02,240
Speaker 5: LIKELY i think that is.

4174
03:45:02,200 --> 03:45:04,800
Speaker 2: What, Happened like that all of the data suggests that's what.

4175
03:45:04,840 --> 03:45:08,240
Speaker 4: Happened roberts talked about this like working towards the furor stuff.

4176
03:45:08,240 --> 03:45:11,400
Speaker 4: Before but like we're seeing a version of that, here, Right, like.

4177
03:45:11,480 --> 03:45:13,600
Speaker 9: Oh, YEAH i mean like all of the current border

4178
03:45:13,640 --> 03:45:16,879
Speaker 9: agents are Like trump cultists, essentially like they're they're the

4179
03:45:16,879 --> 03:45:18,480
Speaker 9: most evil people you will you will ever.

4180
03:45:18,520 --> 03:45:21,160
Speaker 4: MEET i, mean of the of all the federal, agencies,

4181
03:45:21,240 --> 03:45:24,119
Speaker 4: right IT'S cbp that has had the lowest vaccination. Rate

4182
03:45:24,160 --> 03:45:27,400
Speaker 4: they're playing One american use in their break, Rooms, like,

4183
03:45:28,440 --> 03:45:31,840
Speaker 4: yeah they are more ideologically sympathico with what's happening THEN

4184
03:45:31,840 --> 03:45:35,080
Speaker 4: i would imagine most OTHER feds. Are, yeah, certainly LIKE

4185
03:45:35,160 --> 03:45:38,400
Speaker 4: ice are pretty much in lockstep with The trump. Administration,

4186
03:45:39,800 --> 03:45:44,360
Speaker 4: yeah if you want to HELP, AMOS i guess don't

4187
03:45:44,480 --> 03:45:47,879
Speaker 4: send A. Jd vynce baby, meme but you can send

4188
03:45:47,879 --> 03:45:53,840
Speaker 4: your money again to GoFundMe dot com slash f slash

4189
03:45:53,879 --> 03:45:57,760
Speaker 4: standing with our. Family they'll be in the show notes,

4190
03:45:57,800 --> 03:46:01,120
Speaker 4: Too and if you would like to contact, us you

4191
03:46:01,160 --> 03:46:06,200
Speaker 4: can do so using proton, mail which is only encrypted

4192
03:46:06,360 --> 03:46:09,040
Speaker 4: end to end if you are sending from an encrypted

4193
03:46:09,080 --> 03:46:12,840
Speaker 4: email address like a proton mat. Address and the way

4194
03:46:12,959 --> 03:46:16,160
Speaker 4: you can do that is by typing the email address

4195
03:46:16,240 --> 03:46:19,920
Speaker 4: cool zone tips at proton dot me into the two

4196
03:46:20,000 --> 03:46:23,520
Speaker 4: field and sending an email to. Us that, way we

4197
03:46:23,560 --> 03:46:26,240
Speaker 4: do read them. All we don't respond to them, all

4198
03:46:26,360 --> 03:46:27,640
Speaker 4: but all of them get.

4199
03:46:27,640 --> 03:46:32,400
Speaker 5: Read we reported the. News, oh we reported the.

4200
03:46:32,440 --> 03:46:32,960
Speaker 1: News.

4201
03:46:40,240 --> 03:46:43,440
Speaker 2: Hey we'll be Back monday with more episodes every week

4202
03:46:43,480 --> 03:46:44,879
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the.

4203
03:46:44,959 --> 03:46:48,280
Speaker 15: Universe it Could Happen here is a production of Cool Zone.

4204
03:46:48,320 --> 03:46:51,360
Speaker 15: Media for more podcasts from Cool Zone, media visit our

4205
03:46:51,400 --> 03:46:55,200
Speaker 15: website coolzonmedia dot, com or check us out on The iHeartRadio,

4206
03:46:55,240 --> 03:46:59,160
Speaker 15: App Apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts can

4207
03:46:59,160 --> 03:47:01,520
Speaker 15: now find sources where It Could happen here listed directly

4208
03:47:01,560 --> 03:47:02,039
Speaker 15: in episode.

4209
03:47:02,080 --> 03:47:03,920
Speaker 6: Descriptions thanks for.

4210
03:47:04,000 --> 03:47:04,400
Speaker 3: Listening