1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol. 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We are joined as always with 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: our super producer Paul, Mission Control dec and most importantly, 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here and that makes this 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know now, uh, Matt Noel. 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,319 Speaker 1: As as we know, we cover a wide range of 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: topics here on the show, and some topics are things 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: that occurred way back in the day, in the years 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: of your and some topics or things that may occur 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: in the future. And some topics, like today's show, are 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: things where we enter into an ongoing conversation and ongoing debate. 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: And as you know, any time that we are able 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: to do so, we we aim to go toward our 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: primary sources. Right. You want firsthand experience, You want people 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: who have had their boots on the ground, as it were, 20 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: and that is why today we are immensely fortunate to 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: welcome to the show Rob Black, who is a corporate 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: defense attorney or was for eight years, and took on 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: an environmental suit that would ultimately expose a decade long, 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: like multiple decades long history of intense chemical pollution. You 25 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: may be familiar with Rob from the headline of a 26 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: New York Times article in sten titled the lawyer who 27 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: became DuPont's worst Nightmare. Rob, thank you so much for 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: coming on the show today. Well, thank you for having me. 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: Let's let's jump right into this. We we got a 30 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: chance to see the movie Dark Waters that is based 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: on your experience, and I would say much of that 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: film is told through your perspective and really your story, 33 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: and it is largely, at least according to director Todd Haynes, 34 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: based on that New York Times magazine article that we 35 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top. And uh, the way the way 36 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: it gets started, the way the movie gets started, it 37 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: takes us to nineteen ninety eight. So let's go ahead 38 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: and just go there. What was your position at uh 39 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: at Taft It's called Taft Law in the movie, I 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: believe it has a slightly different name. But what was 41 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: your position there at Taft Law? What kinds of clients 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: were you representing? And what kinds of lawsuits were you 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: fighting at that time. Yeah, that the the full name 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: of the law firm. It's the shorthand is now referred 45 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: to as Taft Law, but it's Taft at Tineas Hollister 46 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: and I actually started there at a law school in 47 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: nine uh working in the environmental group along with folks 48 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: like Tom Turp, who you also see in the film 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: Um and I was working on environmental matters for primarily 50 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: our corporate clients, helping them understand and comply with the 51 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: vast array of federal and state environmental rules, statutes, regulations. 52 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: And that's primarily what I was doing up until right 53 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: about the time I became a partner at the law firm, 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: when I received a call from Wilbur Tennant out of 55 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: West Virginia and explained to us a little bit the 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: contents of that call and the problem that was sort 57 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: of posed to you that you were able to kind 58 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: of step into address in I was contacted by a 59 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: gentleman who was starting to describe all kinds of problems 60 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: he was having with cows on this property in West Virginia. 61 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: And I really wasn't sure why he was contacting me. 62 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Let this had to do with anything, I was working 63 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: on it. And then he mentioned the name of my 64 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: grandmother and that he had gotten my name through my grandmother, 65 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: And so I paid a little more attention at that 66 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: point and found out that he apparently owned property that 67 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: was right next to land that one of my grandmother's 68 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: good friends owned, and they apparently had been talking earlier 69 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: that day and Mr Tennant was complaining about cow's dying 70 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: on his property. Nobody locally, they're outside of purpose for 71 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: West Virginia, would really talk to him. He had tried 72 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: contacting the states, the federal e p A folks at 73 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: the plants, and wasn't getting very far as was looking 74 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: for a lawyer who might be able to help him, 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: and so the neighbor had just been talking to my 76 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: grandmother who had mentioned that I was a environmental lawyer 77 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: in Cincinnati and surely I could help him. So he 78 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: was calling me, and we agreed to you know, once 79 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: I heard this is from my grandmother, I agreed to 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: to sit down and look at what he had. So 81 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: let's let's pull back just a little bit here before 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: we get too deep into the case itself and what 83 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: you were exploring um at the around that time in 84 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: the nineties. How would you describe du Pont at that time, 85 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: like how big of a player were they in the 86 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: chemical industry, what kind of products were they producing, and 87 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: ultimately what was their relationship to Parkersburg, West Virginia at 88 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: that point in time. Back in the late nineties, du 89 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: Pont was of the world's largest chemical companies. You know, 90 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: had a sterling reputation UM. They had an immense um 91 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: um amount of scientists within the company that had had 92 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: a good reputation for um scientific work over the years 93 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: on toxicity of chemicals. I knew them fairly well. We 94 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: had run across their lawyers over the years at various 95 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: super fun cleanup sites. But we were representing our other 96 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: clients and DuPont was not one of our clients, but 97 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: we know their attorneys would be in the same room 98 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: with us, and we were discussing which companies ought to 99 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: be cleaning up various sites across the country. So we 100 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: knew them well. They had a good reputation. They were 101 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: a very large company, well known in the chemical world 102 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: UM and they happened to own the world's largest teslon 103 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: manufacturing facility UM and it was located in Parkersburg, West 104 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Virginia long the Ohio River. So we're talking about Wilbur Tenant. 105 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: He's the he's the farmer that that contact, the man 106 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: who owned farmland that contacted you. UM, and you were 107 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: talking about that land that was immediately adjacent to his UM. 108 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: It was something called the dry run landfill, I believe, 109 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: or at least that's what it's referred to in the 110 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: movie um as and what So you initially sued DuPont 111 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: just to find out, at least the way is depicted 112 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: in the movie, just to find out what was inside 113 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: that landfill that could possibly be contaminating Wilbur's land. Correct, 114 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: that's right. UM. When we sat down with Mr Tennants 115 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: and looked at videotapes and photographs that he had, UM, 116 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: what we found out was there was a landfill right 117 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: next to Mr. Tennant's property that DuPont was using. UM. 118 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: It was supposed to be just routine trash and regular 119 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: non hatchardist waste from the plant. UM. And we were 120 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: trying to figure out why the water coming out of 121 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: this landfill, the runoff out of the landfill had white 122 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: foam and it appeared that that foam was making the 123 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: cows that were drinking the water, sick wildlife in the area, 124 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: sick um. And so we started digging into what exactly 125 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: was going into this landfill because what we were seeing 126 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: in the records and the permits for the landsfill from 127 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: the state weren't weren't revealing any anything that would explain 128 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: what was happening to the animals of what we were 129 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: seeing with the white foaming water. So just let's talk 130 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: in particular what was occurring to the cows. So the 131 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: evidence that Mr Tennant brought to you was a ton 132 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: of videotapes, right, like a bunch of VHS tapes of 133 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: him documenting his cattle as they are dying off and 134 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: he's showing that they have appear to have enlarged organs 135 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: and blackened teeth. And he's also noticing that some of 136 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: the rocks within his creek that's running on his property 137 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: are bleached or at least appear to be you know, um, 138 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: discolored discolored. Yeah, So, like, talk to me about how 139 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: you felt when you saw that, Like what what was 140 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: your reaction to seeing those things and did you immediately 141 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: think there was something really really bad going on there? Yeah. 142 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: Mr Tennet's had been taking videotape of what he was 143 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: seeing on his property and in the creek for years. 144 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: Um He he had started seeing problems in the mid 145 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: to late nineties around or so and had been trying 146 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: to get somebody to pay attention, and so he figured 147 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: he'd start videotaping it so at least people could see 148 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: what he was talking about. And so he brought these 149 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: tapes up to us, and as you indicated, I mean, 150 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: it was pretty powerful video. It showed animals that were 151 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: wasting away, you know, just were skin and bones, that 152 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: had tumors, that had black and teeth, their eyes were 153 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: sunken back in their head or just colored. There were 154 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: other wildlife in the area, fish and frogs and fear 155 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: that seemed to be suffering as well. And there were 156 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: actually portions of those tapes or Mr Tenant was cutting 157 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: into the animals that had died to try to find 158 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: out what had happened. Did you see misshape and miscolored 159 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: organs and um and tumors and black and teeth in 160 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: these animals. So it was pretty powerful when we looked 161 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: at that videotape, and you can see these animals standing 162 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: in water with white foam um that something clearly was wrong, 163 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: something was was very wrong there, so we figured, yes, 164 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: we would try to help. So this is the pivotal 165 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: moment right where where you decide that, yes, we will 166 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: take this case. For for anyone who's unfamiliar with the 167 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: way these sorts of investigations involved, like how they evolve 168 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: over time, what were the next early steps, like as 169 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: soon as as soon as you decide we will take 170 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: on this matter. What what is the first the first 171 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: iteration of the investigation? Do we identify the foam? Do 172 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: we take samples? How does it work? Well? You know? What? 173 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: What are things? I did was try to go to 174 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: the state agency that was regulating that landfill, that had 175 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: given the company a permit, and pull the permits and 176 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: find out what types of materials are being disposed there. 177 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: What are they monitoring for in the water? You are 178 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: we seeing detections of those chemicals above the limits that 179 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: the state has set um you know, in my world 180 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: to that point, I've been dealing with all these different 181 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: federal state laws. You know. My understanding was if there 182 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: were toxic or hazardous materials of concern, those are the 183 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: ones that would be listed in the permits or those 184 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: would be the ones that you would have to be 185 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: monitoring for UM. So I thought this would be a 186 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: fairly straightforward thing that we could pull these permits, pull 187 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: the records for this landfill, and surely there must be 188 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: something that was out of lack um you know, something 189 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: that was being admitted and way too high of concentration 190 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: um you know, and that we would be able to 191 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: find that through going through these government permits. And that's 192 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: what we focused on with du Pont initially as well. 193 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: M was their records relating to what was permitted, what 194 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: was regulated at that landfill, and we simply didn't see 195 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: anything um that was explaining what we were seeing through 196 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: those permit records. I'm fascinated by this whole concept of 197 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: allowable limits of toxins and the process of you know, 198 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,359 Speaker 1: how the EPA decides what is it is not acceptable 199 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, um impurities in or in 200 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: contaminations and environments and drinking water, etcetera. UM. Is that like, 201 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: can you speak to that a little bit, to someone 202 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: with your expertise as to what that process is like 203 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: and why we sometimes see you know, rollbacks of e 204 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: p A standards for example that oh no, actually wait 205 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: we don't need to be this rigorous where we're over 206 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: overdoing it, you know, or um or re examining something 207 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: like this where maybe it goes in the opposite direction. Well, 208 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's an extremely complex process. Um. You know, 209 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about a regulatory system that really, uh you 210 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: look at the grand scheme of events here hasn't been 211 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: around all that long. You know, the u s e. 212 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: P A didn't even come into existence until um in 213 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: some of the first laws at the federal level regulating 214 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: chemicals going out into the market and how you test 215 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: them and how you assess their safety really didn't come 216 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: out until six And you know, it's a fairly limited 217 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: group of chemicals that have actually been assessed and have 218 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: been deemed worthy to be regulated at a federal level 219 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: or state level, and you know, with standards being set 220 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: under different federal laws and regulations, and really what we 221 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: came to find a help through this case, uh, you know, 222 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:02,359 Speaker 1: was there's a much larger world of unregulated chemicals. Chemicals 223 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: that have escaped that process. Either they were already out 224 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: in our world in our environment decades before these new 225 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: federal laws came into play, but before the EPA even 226 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: existed or somehow they skated through or or bypassed the 227 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: system altogether. And we're gonna talk more about this topic 228 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: after a quick word from our sponsor, and we're back. 229 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: So at this point, we we see, of course, the 230 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: the what many people would think of as the looming 231 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: shadow of the gigantic company du Pont, and the firm 232 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: has done some I believe the firm has in its 233 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: past done some corporate work on the plaintiff side. What 234 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: was the prospect, like, what was the conversation like on 235 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: your side when you when you had to choose shall 236 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: we take on DuPont? Shall we take on this enormous 237 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: corporate entity. Was there any hesitation, any um, any sense 238 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: of uh that this could endanger your livelihood or anything 239 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: like that. Well, I think that that was a conversation 240 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: that's definitely evolved over time. You know, when when Mr 241 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: Tennant first came to us and we were first looking 242 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: into this issue, um, you know, we assumed this would 243 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: be something that would be rather straightforward. You know, it's 244 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: there was a regulated, permitted landfill, something that was being 245 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: controlled by the state of West Virginia. We thought we 246 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: would be able to to find out what what you know, 247 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: hazardous materials we're in that landfill and assume that we 248 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: could get to the bottom of it relatively quickly. Um. 249 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: We had no idea at the time that this was 250 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: going to involve some unregulated mystery can nical. But even 251 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: even on those initial stages where we were talking with 252 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: Mr Tennant and trying to decide whether to take the 253 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: case and actually sue du pot um, you know, it 254 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: was clear Mr Tennant in his family probably we're not 255 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: going to be able to uh, you know, afford the 256 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: kind of rates we typically charged our corporate clients. So 257 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: that was one of the first times we ever took 258 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: on a case on what they call contingency, you know, 259 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: where the clients only pays at the end if there's 260 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: actually a recovery. But again, we thought it was a 261 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: fairly straightforward, Uh we hoped it would get further straightforward case. 262 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't until you know, it was getting into the 263 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: discovery and getting into the documents that we realized we 264 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: were dealing with a much much bigger issue, one that 265 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: went way beyond just this farmer's family, um and his property, 266 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: but what something that was impacting the entire community and 267 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: eventually realized the entire country, if not the entire world 268 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: old it's going to be a much bigger undertaking. And 269 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: in in the movie at least, it's it's depicted as 270 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: when you stumble upon something within the discovery all these documents, 271 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: something that that is referred to as p f O 272 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: A or pfo A related with regards to the dry 273 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: running landfill. Um, can you can you just talk about that, 274 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: like what that was, what your journey was to figuring 275 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: out what the heck that substance was, because there wasn't nobody, 276 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: nobody actually had anything written down in these documents about 277 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: what it was, and you didn't really learn about it 278 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: until you were at the at least it appears like 279 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: you were at that Chemical Alliance dinner where you saw 280 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: the reaction to p f O A S. So let's 281 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: just talk about how you found it, what it is, 282 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: and that Chemical Alliance dinner. Well. I I have also 283 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: recently published the book called Exposure, which I try to 284 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: go into more detail about the discovery of this chemical 285 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: and how it was we came to find out it 286 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: even existed, and in what documents we saw this in 287 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: and how how I really started to understand what was 288 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: going on here was a pretty complicated process. But what 289 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: I can tell you is we were, you know, getting 290 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: getting nowhere really with focusing on the regulated listed materials 291 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: in this landfill and their permits. So I got to 292 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: the point where I finally decided I would ask to 293 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: Pond for all of their records relating to anything that 294 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: was going to this landfill from the plant. And we 295 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: met with great pushback from the company at that point, No, 296 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: you you need to keep focused on these hazardous listed materials, 297 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: and we had to go to court and we eventually 298 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: got a core order that required the company to start 299 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: turning over this broader group of documents. And it was 300 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: pouring through all of those materials, and there was a 301 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: lot that I stumbled upon the document one day that 302 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: mentioned this chemical referred to as a e f O 303 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: or p f O a H. And I tried to 304 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: find out what was this because it was indicating that 305 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: there was a lot of that material that had been 306 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: used at the plant and that it had been some 307 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: of that waste has been sent to this landfill. Uh. 308 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: So it was finding that reference really changed everything. I 309 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: tried to find information, you know, that was available publicly 310 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: online or in our library and really couldn't find much 311 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: of anything about this chemical. I wasn't even sure it 312 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: was a chemical at that point. Um, So that really 313 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: launched us down a whole new road. And really, you know, 314 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: it is something I had been had to focus on 315 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: for the next several years, just finding out what is 316 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: this stuff? And why is so much of it being 317 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: used at that plan? And why did it why did 318 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: the waste end up to this landfill? What does it 319 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: do to the cows that are drinking people? And in 320 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: the fall or autumn of two thousands, you had to 321 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: you You took them to court. You took to Pont 322 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: to court to comply with that request that they share 323 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: all documentation related to p f O A and that 324 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: that this feels like the watershed moment because you find 325 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: that not only is there uh, not only is their 326 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: correspondence internally or documentation eternally onto Pont side, but it 327 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: is robust, I believe, more than a hundred ten thousand pages. 328 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: And the thing that was scary to me is that 329 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: some of this paperwork is uh what fifty years old 330 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: at that point? Um, what did you do when you 331 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: got this this just mass info dump of all these 332 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: different things from it feels like they're from different sources, right, 333 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: medical reports, like thousands of boxes. Right? Yeah, what how 334 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: did you how did you begin to digest that? Well? 335 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: As you indicated, I mean that process us really began 336 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: after we were able to get the courts, you know, 337 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: to order the company to start turning over its internal 338 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: files about this material. And it eventually ended up being 339 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: millions of pages of documents. And those were the days 340 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: really before things were produced on electronic disks or thumb drives. 341 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: So we were getting physical, hard copy paper, which frankly 342 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: I think ended up being a blessing in the end, because, um, 343 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 1: we didn't necessarily know exactly what terms, you know, we 344 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: were looking for, how it do refer to this chemical? 345 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: In fact, we eventually learned they were referring to it 346 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: in four or five different ways that we wouldn't have 347 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: even known to ask for documents about FC one for 348 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: three or C eight you know it. It only was 349 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: going through all those documents that were able to piece 350 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: that together, um, and that that took many years sitting 351 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: through you know, I physically printed these things out, were 352 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: organized all those hard copies, read through every page and 353 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: trying to put together, put it in chronological order, and 354 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: try to piece together the history of what happened here. 355 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: And as you indicated, we saw documents going back to 356 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: the nineties fifties, the company started purchasing this material in 357 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: from the three M Company and had started extensive toxicology 358 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: studies on it in the sixties, and human studies in 359 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: the seventies and cancer studies in the eighties. So there 360 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: was a wealth of information and the most disturbing aspect 361 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: of it was realizing there was a lot known about 362 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: the toxicity of the chemical. Not only was it in 363 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: the waste that had been sent to this landfill and 364 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: that the cows were drinking, but it had been found 365 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: in the drinking water of the community in the eighties, 366 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: and nobody else outside the company seemed to be aware 367 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: of this. It did not look like the community you've 368 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: been told, did not look like the regulators were aware. 369 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: Um In fact, they're even draft stand by press releases 370 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: in case somebody found out that apparently never went out. 371 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: So it was very disturbing information and realized we were 372 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: dealing with, but we've realized was a public health threat 373 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: that had gone unnoticed. I don't want to come off 374 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: to naive here, But I mean the implication as this 375 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: went to the very top of this company in terms 376 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: of covering up these studies and just absolute brazen disregard 377 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: for people's safety. We're talking about information that was definitely 378 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: within the corporate files, within the scientific files, within the 379 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: lawyers were aware of that. The lawyers were even advising, 380 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: you know, the clients that this was a problem going 381 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: back years UM. And you know, there's a point where 382 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: I eventually even sat down with the CEO of the 383 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: company UM and showed him all of these internal documents 384 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: after he was standing up and publicly saying that there 385 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: was no information suggesting there were any health issues. So 386 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: I sat down with him and went through all of 387 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: those internal documents that showed just the opposite. UM. So 388 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: it was there was a wealth of information within the 389 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: company's own files. And this is this is something that 390 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: we want to want to emphasize. Is it true that 391 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: when you were when you were looking through all this 392 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: extensive documentation that literally no one else outside of DuPont 393 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: had ever seen before. Is it true that you found 394 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: they were contradicting their own recommendations about how to handle 395 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: pfo A. UM, You know, there were internal recommendations and 396 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: discussion about whether to switch frankly away from the chemical 397 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: to a different one in order to avoid some of 398 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: the problems they were seeing with p f l A. 399 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: And these discussions went back into the eighties, and there 400 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: were recommendations from three M, the company that was making 401 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: the p f l A and sending it to pot 402 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: since uh, you know, the three M was recommending that 403 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: it not be put into waterways, um, you know, that 404 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: it should be incinerated, and unfortunately DuPont was was not 405 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: solving those recommendations. I'm just gonna take a quick break 406 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: here and hear a word from our sponsor and we're 407 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: back talking about dark Waters and robbed a lots experience. Okay, so, uh, 408 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: we're really starting to get into the direness of this 409 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: story and the effects of what was going on there. 410 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: Let's jump I want to I want to kind of 411 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: focus in on the individual rules, the people in the 412 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: community who are working on you know, in these in 413 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: these facilities where they're actually creating the chemicals, and then 414 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: the people living that are drinking that water, and the 415 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, in the movie, it's just kind of a 416 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: known thing that if you go and you work at 417 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: the that the chemical plant, your life is going to 418 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: be shortened. It's just something that people in the community 419 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: would talk about. The it's a known thing. You're gonna 420 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: make a good living for a fairly shortened amount of time. 421 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: And it was almost as if it's a trade off 422 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: and a known thing, at least as it depicted in 423 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: the movie. And I had a conversation with some of 424 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: my family from Ohio and like the Acron area, m 425 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: Caiago falls that area, and there it was just even 426 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: and within my relatives it was a known thing that 427 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: if you go and you work at a chemical company, 428 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: you're basically risking your life to get a good stable job. 429 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: Is that what you found in Parkersburg? And um, what 430 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: we're what were the effects on the people working in 431 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: these plants? I think as you see in the film 432 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: Dark Waters, Um, you know that there was definitely pushed 433 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: back within the community when the lawsuits began. Uh. You know, 434 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: this was one of the major employers in town. It 435 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: had been a contributor and you had provided funding for 436 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the local organizations. Um, so there were 437 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,479 Speaker 1: a lot of folks that we're not happy with the 438 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: idea you know that that there was litigation being brought 439 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: against you know, this this this employer in the community. UM. 440 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: And there was there was pushback you know, from the 441 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: against the folks that were speaking out UM. And you know, 442 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: even among the employees, UM, you know, there were folks 443 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: that were that we're definitely becoming thick. UM. In fact, 444 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: in the book, we discussed one of the former employees UM, 445 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, who used to work at the lab um 446 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, for for decades, was working with these chemicals 447 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: who developed ultort of colitis and just the severe personal 448 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: impact you know that that has on folks like that, UM, 449 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's one of the great 450 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: things about the film Dark Waters is that it really 451 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: gives you a good insight into how something like this 452 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: really impacts the real people in the community that are 453 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: dealing with it on a day to day basis. You know, 454 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: we're talking about something that was dragging on for years 455 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: and years. In the meantime, real people are living there, 456 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: you know, real people are drinking this in real people 457 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: are getting sick and dying. UM. And I think, you know, 458 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: it's something, Uh, I think it was powerful. It's powerful 459 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: to see what that really does to folks. I tremendously 460 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: appreciate that point. I think we all do, because one 461 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: thing the film does a fantastic job of depicting is 462 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: the human costs, the very real human costs of these 463 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: this sort of contamination and pollution and cover up with um. 464 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: You know, it could be so easy for us, you know, 465 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: just as people everyday people to see a headline on 466 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: the news or to hear a statistic and for us 467 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: to relegate that to the realm of abstraction. I we 468 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: can we can also tell that this had um a 469 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: clear dare I say, personal impact on you, specifically as 470 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: as an individual and as an attorney, because while this 471 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: is moving through court, while you're aggregating this evidence, while 472 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: you're finding this documentation, eventually, if we just if we 473 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: jump to two thousand again, eventually you call the attorney 474 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: on DuPonts and you have this conversation that results in 475 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: the tenants settling their case. And as as we as noted, right, 476 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: there's there's this one moment where it could have stopped. 477 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: There as that one single case, right, and the firm 478 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: gets as as you would indicated earlier, it's contingency fee. 479 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: But that's not where it stops because you make the 480 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: decision to continue unraveling this strange web. Could could you 481 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about, well, what compelled you 482 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: or what propelled you forward after the settlement. Yeah, you know, 483 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: by the time I had that conversation that we were 484 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: able to resolve the case for Mr Tenant and his family, 485 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: you know, we had I'll say I had been looking 486 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: through enough of the documentation at that point to realize 487 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: this one far beyond Mr Tennant's property. UM. And you know, 488 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: Mr Tennant, even in his family, were extremely concerned about 489 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: their community and their neighbors who, you know, we're drinking 490 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: this and had no idea. You know, we had found out, 491 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, by looking at these documents that this was 492 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: not just on their property, not just in the landfill, 493 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: but it was in the local drinking water and nobody 494 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: was being told. So he was very passionate about finding 495 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: a way that we could get this information out to 496 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: the broader community. UM. And that that really bothered me 497 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: as well, knowing that, you know, I may be one 498 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: of the only people that had seen this information, was 499 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: aware of this public health threat, and nobody else seemed 500 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: to know it. So I did make the decision to 501 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: sit down and put all that information, at least most 502 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: of what I could find, um um, into a letter 503 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: that I sent to the U. S. E p A 504 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: in various different governmental agencies back on March six, two 505 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: thousand one, where I hoped by laying out what I 506 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: had been seeing in these documents, these agencies would see 507 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: the same thing and realized there was a public health 508 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: right here. People were drinking this material. This is out 509 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: there in the environment. You know. This agencies really hadn't 510 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: been given this information, and they would come in and 511 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: stop it and take action to clean it up, get 512 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: the water filtered and regulated, um you know. And I, 513 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: looking back, realized how naive I was to think that 514 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: the government agencies would actually swoop in and do something. 515 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: But um to me, that was a critical um step. 516 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: We needed to alert these agencies and the public to 517 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: this public health threat. And that happened, and Duplant actually 518 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: went to court to get a gag order to stop 519 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: us and talking about it, and luckily the court rejected 520 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: that and I was allowed to go and provide the 521 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: information to the e p A. And eventually, you know, 522 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: EPA started digging through it and realized this information had 523 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: been withheld sued DuPont and one of the few times 524 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: that's ever happened for suing a company for withholding information 525 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: like this from the agency. And that began the process 526 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: of looking into these chemicals and starting to regulate them, 527 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: where we unfortunately that process is still grinding on some 528 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: eighteen years later. And you said chemicals, they're right because 529 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: for a lot of this and a lot of people 530 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: maybe think teflon this one product, this one singular thing 531 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: is the issue. The carbon is a repeating carbon chain. 532 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: I believe that's how it's referred to. UM. It's this 533 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: one thing, but no, no, it's uh, it's numerous chemicals 534 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: that are very similar to this one. Right. Well, the 535 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: chemical that we were focused on in particular was one 536 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: of these chemicals called p f L A, and it 537 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: is one of a large group of chemicals that we 538 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: now know as t FAS p S A S a 539 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: group of man made chemicals that were invented right after 540 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: World War Two, primarily by three M. You know though, 541 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: these man made carbon and flooring combination chemicals UM that 542 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: share similar characteristics, and at the time we were focused 543 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: on one of them, p f O A. But what 544 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: we've now come to know is that there's a large 545 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: number of these out there, UM, and they're being found 546 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: also in drinking water across the country, and in all 547 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: of our blood and in the environment. So let's let's 548 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: talk about what that means for us. UM. There, the 549 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: three of us sitting in this room talking to you, 550 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: are are super producer Paul out there in the booth. 551 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: We all grew up with with my parents and I 552 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: making omelets in our you know, our saucepans that have 553 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: were covered with teflon, and we do. I'd use a 554 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: fork to make my omelet, and I know for a 555 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: fact that I've ingested that stuff in that way, outside 556 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: of the drinking water, outside of all you know, all 557 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: the other ways are being contaminated. Like what what does 558 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: that big what does the big picture really look like 559 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,479 Speaker 1: for for all of humanity, for all of organic life. Well, 560 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, that's the thing that's really very disturbing about 561 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: this whole story is we're talking about contamination on a 562 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: global scale that I'm not sure we've seen before. UM. 563 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: Where you know this this this chemical and this family 564 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: of chemicals, the PFAS chemicals have been used in an 565 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: enormous variety and array of different products over the decades 566 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: where you know, not just um um uh nonstick cookware, 567 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: but fast food wrappings, UM, stain resistant carpeting clothing, UH, 568 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: wire cabling, firefighting films, UH, microwave, popcorn, bag coatings, I mean, 569 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: you name it. And so these chemicals have been used 570 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: in such a vast array of products that it's out 571 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: there and not only in our water, but it's gotten 572 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: into soils, it's gotten into food. It's unfortunately, these chemicals 573 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: have a great ability to to stay out in the environment. 574 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: You know, once they're out there, they have a great 575 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: inability to be broken down by natural conditions. So you 576 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: hear them now referred to as forever chemicals p fl 577 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: A for example. UM it just really doesn't break down 578 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: under natural conditions and would be there for millions of years. 579 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: So pretty much everything that's been pumped out in the 580 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: last sixty seventy years is still there in our soil 581 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: and our water and now getting into us. And not 582 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: only does the stuff get out and stay in the environment, 583 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: it has a unique ability to get into living things 584 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 1: where it tends to stick into the blood. PFOA, for example, 585 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: gets into our blood and even the tiny these amounts 586 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: will build up over time. UM, So it's persistent and biocumulative, 587 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: and now we also know toxic. So you know, these 588 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: these chemicals in there, they're great, um persistence, Their ability 589 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: to be basically contaminating the whole planet and people on 590 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: the planet are presenting really tremendous challenges and concerns to 591 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: the scientific community right now, particularly as we just now 592 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: start sampling and finding out exactly where this stuff is. 593 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: It's been being pumped out there for decades, but we're 594 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: only just now really starting to sample and find it 595 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: and really realize the extent of the contamination. And I 596 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: certainly see and share your concern about the big picture 597 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: of contamination issues involved here. But to Matt's question, you know, 598 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: you know your story involves high levels of contamination literally 599 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: being pumped into water supplies and environments. Um, the whole 600 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: flicking off of tep long with a fork or you know, 601 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: over time, that would necessarily be something as much to 602 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: worry about as the big picture of things that you're addressing. 603 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: Or maybe I'm wrong, I just wanted to put that 604 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: to you. Well, but drinking these chemicals, you know, in 605 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: the water is has certainly been recognized by the scientific world, 606 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: is one of the primary sources of getting exposed. I mean, 607 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: if you're living in a community where these chemicals are 608 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: in your drinking water, that's going to be one of 609 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: your primary ways of getting it into your body. Uh. 610 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: These other exposures are probably going to be less significant, 611 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: but they'll still um, you know, managed to get into 612 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: you somehow. But really, you know, if you're in an 613 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: area where it's it's made it into the water, that's 614 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: really a prime concern to stop that that exposure, that's 615 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: a direct exposure into the body. And I believe one 616 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: thing that if there's one takeaway that everyone listening to 617 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: today's episode needs to carry with them after after the 618 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: audio has stopped played, it's this we're talking about the 619 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: jennis of an investigation that expands, you know, to these 620 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: vast parameters. But we're not really talking about something that 621 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: happened in the past. We're not only talking about that 622 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: because as as you establish, Rob, this is this is 623 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: going on, These chemicals, these substances are still out there 624 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: in multitudes of different Uh, let's see multitudes of different applications, 625 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: multitudes of different h ellicit distributions right whether in in 626 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: drinking water or in DuPont so called digestion ponds. We 627 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: now are looking towards the future and would love to 628 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: hear your perspective on what the future of p f 629 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: O A and these related contaminants may actually be. What, 630 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: because you know that directly translates to the health of 631 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,320 Speaker 1: the public and the health of livestock and and even 632 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: perhaps not to be alarmist about it, the health of 633 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,919 Speaker 1: generations to come, could you speak with us a little 634 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: bit about what you see in the near to mid 635 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: future as um as the state of America's health as 636 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: it applies to these substances, or any any action, whether 637 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: environmental recovery actions or whether legal actions that might mitigate 638 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: potential future harm. Yeah, you know, as the information finally 639 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: started coming out about about these chemicals. Actually three m 640 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: back in two thousand announced that it was going to 641 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: stop making uh p f o A and the related 642 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: one PFOS that was used to Scotch Guard and cirefighting films. 643 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: So they very quickly announced they would stop making two 644 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: of these DuPont unfortunately then jumped in at that point 645 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: and started making and continue to make p fl A 646 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, as more of this information came out to 647 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: our litigation and the e p A got more involved 648 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: and more concerns, du Pont and the other companies that 649 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: were still using and making p f A at the 650 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: time announced in two thousand six that they would stop 651 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: making p f A and phase put out over the 652 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: next ten years. By during that period of time, companies 653 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: have brought out what they referred to as alternatives or 654 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 1: safer replacements for these UM longer chain C eights, ones 655 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: that have eight carbons, things like C fixes, C fours, 656 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: and the hopes that they're less persistent, less biocumulative, and unfortunately, 657 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: the data that's coming out suggest they might share very 658 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: similar toxicities and hopefully won't last in the environment. Though 659 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: is long and I think what we're seeing is as 660 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: this data is coming out about this broader class of 661 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: chemicals and more testing as occurring, people are finally becoming 662 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: aware that these chemicals even exist and what their exposures 663 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,399 Speaker 1: have been or might be UM And you know, that's 664 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: one of the things I'm very encouraged about with the 665 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: release of Dark Waters in the book, is that that 666 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: information it will now be out to a wider group 667 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: of people will now understand that they've been exposed at 668 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: least have the tools to start beginning to two avoid 669 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: those exposures hopefully going forward at least be aware of 670 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: what kind of products and where where in the environment 671 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: these chemicals might be, so that they can choose to 672 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: avoid it if they want. And we are now finally 673 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: seeing regulatory authorities start to finally take action. It's taken 674 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: a long time. The u s e p A still 675 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: has not regulated these chemicals on a federal level, but 676 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: the states are moving forward setting drinking water guidelines on 677 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 1: their own in order to protect people. So we're seeing 678 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: action begin, and I think we're seeing increased awareness so 679 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: that people can take steps to protect themselves, and hopeful 680 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,879 Speaker 1: we'll also see technologies being developed to help us get 681 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,240 Speaker 1: these things out of our environment and hopefully find ways 682 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: to make sure that our exposures are minimized going forward. 683 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having something positive to talk 684 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: about in the story, Rob because man, it's um it's 685 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: we get into very dark waters here when we're when 686 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,439 Speaker 1: we're dealing this. Sorry, I just have one in there, 687 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: No for real, It's it's it's this movie and this 688 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: story and your experience. It's it's very intense and at 689 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: times it can be disheartening many weeks. Yeah, I mean, 690 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: for sure, it really points to a real um lack 691 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 1: of humanity on the parts of folks that can really 692 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: that that are the ones who are most empowered to 693 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: really make a difference and just choose not to, it 694 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: would seem I believe the euphemism is self regulation. Well yeah, so, 695 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: so I don't want to spoil the ending of the movie. 696 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: If you've read the r iCal, you know how how 697 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: it turns out for the people of Parkersburg and a 698 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: lot of the other people affected. But I just really quickly, 699 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: for my money, the biggest the biggest issue is the 700 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: self regulation of these chemical companies with their proprietary chemicals. 701 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: And the problem is that the e p A and 702 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: all these regulatory bodies won't know what chemicals to to 703 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: regulate if the chemical company doesn't come forward and give 704 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: them those guidelines. Um. At least that's the way it 705 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: was when these lawsuits began. Have you have you seen 706 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: any change in that respect or is it still kind 707 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: of the way it was? Yeah, I mean for existing chemicals, 708 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 1: like those chemicals that were out there before a lot 709 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: of these rules and laws came into play. Um. In fact, 710 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:54,439 Speaker 1: this situation was cited as an example UM of why 711 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: those laws needed to be changed. In fact, in twenty 712 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: the federal law regulated chemicals coming out in the market 713 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: was a beef stop in order to to try to 714 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: address that very issue. I think it remains to be 715 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: seen how effective you know, that's going to be going forward, 716 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: But to me, it's encouraging. What's really encouraging is to 717 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: see this information come out, um And because I think 718 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: once you give people the facts and this information, um, 719 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,720 Speaker 1: you know, even if it's going to take a while 720 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: for these things to grind through the regulatory system or 721 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: the political system, people on an individual basis, once they 722 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: know the information, they can at least take steps to 723 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: protect themselves. And I think that's something you see in 724 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: the movie as well. It is just the power of 725 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,840 Speaker 1: information and individuals to stand up and do things to 726 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: protect themselves in their communities. Well said, then we completely 727 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: agree we've seen dark waters for ourselves. For anyone listening, 728 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: if you would like more information, because information is power, 729 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: and in this case it's also self empowerment. If you 730 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: would like to learn more about this again, ongoing story, 731 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: then check out the film Dark Waters. Additionally, uh find Exposure, 732 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:23,479 Speaker 1: which is Rob Blood's book coming out via Simon and Schuster. Yeah, Rob, 733 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Is there anything else you want 734 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: to leave us with? No, and I really appreciate the opportunity. Again, 735 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, anything like this that helps people understand, um, 736 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,360 Speaker 1: what has actually happened, What is happening, believe it or 737 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: not in the United States in today's world. You know, 738 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: this is, as you indicated, not something that happened, you know, 739 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: back in the nineteen tens or twice. This is modern 740 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: day United States and for people to understand this is 741 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: what's happening, and here are the things we need to 742 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: do that hopefully will make things better. Well, and as 743 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: we know from this story, the step in a lot 744 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: of this is just reporting and letting people know what's 745 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: going on in your neck of the global woods, as 746 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 1: Ben would say. So if you want to do that 747 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: and you have something like this happening around you, or 748 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: you just want to share how things like this have 749 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: affected your lives, please connect with us on social media 750 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: where we're Conspiracy Stuff and Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can 751 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: also find us on our Facebook group. Here's where it 752 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: gets crazy on Facebook. A great place to post articles 753 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: and follow up with the topics that we discussed on 754 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: the show every week. And if you want to call in, 755 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: if you're out there listening, we have a phone number 756 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: you can leave us. A message. Number is one eight 757 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,800 Speaker 1: three three st d w y t k uh. Sorry, 758 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: Robin Well, it might be a little strange coming out 759 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: of nowhere there um uh. And if you don't want 760 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: to do that, if you want to write us a 761 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,359 Speaker 1: good old fashioned email, we are conspiracy at i heart 762 00:47:49,480 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: radio dot com. M hm. Stuff they Don't Want You 763 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: to Know is a production of I Heart Radio's How 764 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,799 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 765 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 766 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:19,800 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.