1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt. Noel is on 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: an adventure. They call me Ben when you're joined as 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: always with our super producer team. Our good buddy Mission 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: Control is on an adventure as well. Perhaps you will 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: tell us about it if you return safe. In the meantime, 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: we're joined again with our friends Maya and Seth, both 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: of whom, by the way, spent their respective first days 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: at work listening to one of our shows and decided 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: to stay on. So thanks for staying. I mean, they 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of have to write that's far of a job. 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: But still we're glad you're here. Yeah, and you guys 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: doing alright. Thumbs up, thumbs down, All right, got some 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: enthusiastic thumbs up. What about you, Matt, how are you? 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: What's what's going on? Oh? Thumbs decidedly sideways. No, I'm 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: just ding. It's great. We just launched Insomniac The Monster 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: Presents Insomnia actually that we're working on for a long time, 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: So I'm really excited about that. And um, I wanted 22 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: to ask you, by the way, we haven't talked about 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: it at length, but you just got back from l 24 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: A on your own adventure. Yes, that's true, that's true. First, 25 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: I'd like to shout out to Insomniac. I'd like to 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: emphasize that is hosted by my long time friend, your 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: longtime friend, as well a collaborator and my ride or 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: dies Scott Benjamin, who will be appearing on this show 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: very soon, hopefully if we can get him to work 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: us into his busy schedule. Yeah, it might even happen 31 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: before this episode comes out. Who knows who knows? Time is? 32 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Time is a wonky controversial thing. So if we assume 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: that time still works the way it did when we 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: recorded this podcast. Yes, I was previously in Los Angeles. 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: I was there for a thing called Alien Con and 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: I was asked to go there through some friends of ours, 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: fellow podcasters here in our network Brent and John who 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: hosts Hysteria fifty one. Longtime listeners will remember them from 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: their previous appearances on this very show. Stuff they don't 40 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: want you to know. And I heard you ran into 41 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: some of the big names in the extraterrestrial world. Yeah. 42 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: It was weird, man, I'm not going to lie. It 43 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: was a it was a trip that became a trip. 44 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: English is strange, but you get what I'm saying. Yeah, 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: the so Georgio Sukulos was there. Uh, the guy who 46 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: is responsible for the fire and the sky story was there. Uh. 47 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: There were some other There were some other big names, 48 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: some of whom maybe most familiar to people who already 49 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: very into the ufology or UFO sighting community. Eric Vonden, 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: Eric von Denikin. Yes, that's rights and that's that is 51 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: probably one of the biggest ones for me. William Shatner 52 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: was there. I'm not sure if he was aware that 53 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: he was there or knew where he was, but he 54 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: was definitely there. This is a convention that it seems 55 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: to take place numerous cities throughout throughout the year. There's 56 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: another one coming up soon in Dallas. But we went 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: to check it out to represent our show, to do 58 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: a panel in UFOs and podcasting, and then through a 59 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: series of strange circumstances, I ended up hosting the costume contests, 60 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: which was a lot of fun and there were some 61 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: great costumes, but probably one of the best things there 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: was the ability to meet some of our fellow podcasters. 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: So I'd like to recommend one podcast I listened to 64 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: by a guy named Chris Cogswell. It's called the Mad 65 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: Science Tis Podcast. Chris Cogwell is a long time vet 66 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: of the UFO community. He's got his stripes, but not 67 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: just in the world of ufology. He also has his 68 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: stripes in the academic towers, the Ivory ones, you remember those, Matt. 69 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: He has a PhD and material science and so he 70 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: spends a lot of time looking at the hard science 71 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: and data behind reports of anomalous things in the sky 72 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: or your favorite things in the water, UFOs and usos alike. 73 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll have him on the show one day. But 74 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: if you are interested in looking more into the hard 75 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: science rather than the anecdotes that are so ubiquitous in 76 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: the world of UFO reporting, then we would highly recommend 77 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: the Mad Scientist podcast. Dude. Chris Cogswell has a PhD 78 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: in chemical engineering with a focus on nano materials for 79 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: absorption and separations. Oh yeah, what I right? And here's 80 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: the thing that he's He's the nicest guy and He's 81 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: incredibly knowledgeable, so I love to get him on this 82 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: show to talk about the cases that he feels have 83 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: the most sand, the cases that he feels are the 84 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: most compelling. But yep, that was Los Angeles. Almost wish 85 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: I had stayed, because it is here in Atlanta, Georgia, 86 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: where we record the podcast. It is the weather is 87 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: best described as tepid soup. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, running 88 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: into what do we call it, a soaking wet blanket 89 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: that is a hundred degrees and you're just walking into 90 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: the blanket at all times when you're moving forward, and 91 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: it clings to your skin everywhere, and then the mosquitoes 92 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: and then the mosquitoes arrive. Yes, yes, right on Q. So, 93 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you are in uh, 94 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: the southeast of the United States, good luck. And as 95 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: they say on Mitchell and Webb, remain indoors, Remain calm 96 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: and indoors. Yes, tell us about your adventures. How has 97 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: the weather changed over time, maybe over the year or 98 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: since you were a wee tyke of your own. You 99 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: don't have to wait for the whole podcast and forget. 100 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: You can pause and you can call us now to 101 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: let us know what you think. Yes, but make sure 102 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 1: you you pull over before you do so if you're driving. Yes, Yeah, 103 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: this is not a This is not a Yolo moment. 104 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: Now it is now it is yep, right now is 105 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: a yellow moment. Now it's gone, so too bad. I 106 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: hope you could caught ahold of that while it occurred. 107 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: Now you're cursed to live many times. That's correct. So 108 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: what do you say, Ben, Let's uh, let's give him 109 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: the phone number. We are one eight three three sst 110 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: d W y t K. Seriously leave a message. We 111 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: will see it. Uh, somebody I'm not going to name names. 112 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: Jennifer left eight messages, last eight consecutive messages starting around 113 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: eleven o'clock PM. That's great. So it sounds like we 114 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: have another call in show in the future. Yeah, there's 115 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: a whole episode of just Jennifer, like addressing Jennifer's concerns. 116 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Should we call it just Jennifer? Yeah, it's just a 117 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: Jennifer Jennifer. I hope that you are okay with those 118 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: messages being mentioned on air. If not, this is your 119 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: time to let us know. At the number of Matt 120 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: and I already repeated. So we're talking a little bit 121 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: about the future, but today's episode is largely centered on 122 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: the past. William Faulkner, the author, not just some guy. Uh. 123 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: William Faulkner was fond of saying, the past isn't dead, 124 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: it isn't even past. And that's something that's come up 125 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: on this show before, because while it might sound like 126 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: one of those clever, glib quips that people say on 127 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: a late night talk show, there is serious grit to 128 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: this notion. The discipline that we call history is not 129 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: some pursuit of static, set in stone events. It's an 130 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: attempted understanding. The discipline instead is, at its best, a 131 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,559 Speaker 1: conversation between the present and the past, between the living 132 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: and the dead. History is alive, and like all living things, 133 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: history appears to change over time simply because of our 134 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: understanding of it. I know this sounds abstract, but the 135 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: effects are concrete, and they are very real. Research has 136 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: proven things that were once considered myths or legends were 137 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: indeed real people, places, and events. This is not a 138 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: consistent but this happens frequently enough that we can as 139 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: a species surmised that we have we have no real 140 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: we have no real standing upon which debase our confidence 141 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: in in the story of humanity or the story of 142 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: the planet in a lot of ways, you know, besides 143 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: the best efforts of archaeologists and history orients who are 144 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: attempting to track all that stuff down. Again, we it's 145 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: just the best version that we know at this moment, 146 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: right right, which is how all science should work. So 147 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: examples that are going to be very familiar to a 148 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: lot to a lot of us long time listeners out there. 149 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: The Seely canth that's living history that was for a 150 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: long time considered extinct for a long time, considered a cryptic, 151 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: very well known to the people who had lived in 152 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: the area for thousands of thousands of years. But then 153 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: Western people found it and said, oh, we rediscovered this 154 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: once extinct creature. Yeah, again to the knowledge of the 155 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: people who keep the records, it was gone. Right, That's 156 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: very important distinction. Uh. And then the other famous example 157 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: we often site would be the city of Troy, which 158 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: is the perfect example. Uh. Until fairly recently, you know, 159 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,359 Speaker 1: in in the past few hundred years, Troy was considered 160 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: a myth, entirely made up thing. There were people who 161 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: were aiding huge academic, uh research initiatives on Troy as 162 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: a metaphor for something or what was Troy a code 163 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: name for or whatever. It turns out there was a 164 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: real city of Troy. This guy, who was not a 165 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: professional archaeologist found it. People didn't believe them for a while, 166 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: because of course we'd all decided Troy was made up. 167 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: That's right. And as we're going to find out a 168 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: little later today in this episode, another find that was 169 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: not initially discovered by any kind of archaeologist or someone 170 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: going out to study it. It was just stumbled upon. 171 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: And similarly, we just found a story coming out of 172 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: the Curdistan region of Iraq where there was a brand 173 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: new palace that was discovered because of drought that was 174 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: occurring in a reservoir there, Yeah, the most well damn 175 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: reservoir on the banks of the Tigris River. As we 176 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: were coming into record today, we we learned about this, 177 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: my Seth, did you guys hear about this? Okay? So, 178 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: so there's a alice. It's almost three thousand five years old. 179 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: We never would have found it except for the drought 180 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: that dramatically lowered water levels. It appears to be a 181 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: palace from the Matani Empire, which is one of the 182 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: least researched empires of the ancient Near East. We had 183 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,119 Speaker 1: no idea it existed. We're not sure we as a species, 184 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: not not us recording. We're not sure when it went 185 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: to Ruin, how it ended up underwater in this dam, 186 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: and we don't know exactly what we will learn about this. 187 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: This is where this this is interesting because this is 188 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: where archaeology and folklore may come to may come to collaborate, 189 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: kind of have an Avengers Assemble thing, you know, happening 190 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: just like in a Marvel movie, because this is where 191 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: some of folklorists and anthropology just may be able to 192 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: glean some knowledge or leads from oral history, which I 193 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: think it's downplayed a lot, but it leads us to 194 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: some important things, you know, definitely, and not to get 195 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: away from that too much. But one of the coolest 196 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: things that was found there were these ten clay tablets 197 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: that actually had Cunea form written on them. They were 198 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: still preserved after being underwater for that long, which was 199 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: somewhat surprising to me. But again, as we're gonna learn 200 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: in this episode, water and certain types of water have 201 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: a way of preserving like the pH balance of the water. 202 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: What else is like um inside that water as far 203 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: as plant life and material go, can preserve the heck 204 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: out of things. We also learned some very gross things 205 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: about Florida. Yeah, just climate wise, not not a statement 206 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: about the state nor the people living there. And if 207 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: you're listening, thanks for tuning in. This may be news 208 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: to you. In today's episode, you see, we are going 209 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: to explore a bizarre example of hidden history, one not 210 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: in the Middle East. Instead, it's going to be in 211 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: the comparatively speaking, the backyard of the West. Right, our 212 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: tail begins on an ordinary Floorida day, near the intersection 213 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: of Interstate and State Road fifty. This is fairly close 214 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: to the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in the nineteen eighties. 215 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: This intersection is this sort of place you drive by 216 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: without a second look, especially if you're in the sweltering 217 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: days of summer, because we have to remember the air 218 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: turns to soup and Florida too. Yeah, it's just it's 219 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: a huge interstate and a state road. Okay, great, maybe 220 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: there's a gas station, not really a photo opportunity. If 221 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: you drove by on the right day in nineteen eighty two, 222 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: you might note the construction occurring as crews work to 223 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: clear the nearby land and build what would later become 224 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: the Windover Farms subdivision. You might even if they're slow enough, 225 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: your eyes are sharp and you're on the lookout for 226 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: some for some reason, if you're a very alert driver, 227 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: you might even see a back ho operator named Steve 228 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: vander Jatt who was working to clear out an area 229 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: around a nearby pond. Yeah, he was just on his 230 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: back ho doing everything he was supposed to be doing, 231 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: clearing out part of the Again, it's kind of a 232 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: bog This pond that we're talking about is it's um swamps, marshy, swampy. 233 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: It's just that that kind of Florida. It reminds me 234 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: of the Everglades a little bit, but it's it's a 235 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: little different. So anyway, he's just going, he's using his 236 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: back ho and oh you know what this would be. 237 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: This would be a perfect Florida man story. This would 238 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: be a Florida man man story. Yeah, let's get it 239 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: a try. Okay, Uh, Florida man's back ho stumbles upon 240 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: ancient skull. There we go. I also like attributing the 241 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: action to the Baco because it sounds as if he 242 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: just left it running. Yeah, exactly something. So it's true. 243 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: In Steve found what while he was cleaning stuff out, 244 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: he saw what he thought was maybe around brown rock, 245 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: and a rock would be unusual in this terrain. So 246 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: he stops working. He starts digging through the muck and 247 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: the mud and the swampy stuff that you're mentioning, Matt 248 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: the mucky muck, the mucky muck, that's the technical term. 249 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: And he picks up this object. He makes his way 250 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: over and he picks it up, wipes off some of 251 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: the stuff. You can't see it, folks, but I'm miming 252 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: his actions here. Uh. And then he turns around this 253 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: this object, this smooth, round rock to find too, equally round, 254 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: empty eye sockets staring back at him. And that's when 255 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: Steve realizes this is not a rock. This is a skull. 256 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: And he's not an expert, but it looks pretty old. 257 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: Well yeah, it looks a little old, but again, who 258 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: knows how old it is. So imagine you're Steve and 259 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: you find a skull while you're working. You have to 260 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: call the police and report finding a skull because there's 261 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: a possibility that this maybe you know, a homicide or 262 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: a missing person or something to that effect. So that 263 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: was exactly what he did. And then they continued looking 264 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: because they're still working in this area. It's not like 265 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: you just immediately stopped all the construction there because of 266 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: a skull. You definitely pause for a moment again, called 267 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: the police, and then maybe keep going. But they started 268 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: finding a lot more skulls, a lot more bones again 269 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: inside the bucket of the bacco where he was working. 270 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: Right the site supervisor is the first person that Steve 271 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: contacts and they say, okay, it's just a murder, we 272 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: have to call the police. And then they look in 273 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: the bucket of Steve Spacco and they find more skulls. 274 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: So he had apparently been digging up some remains before 275 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: he was aware of it, right, And when they realized 276 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: they were looking at multiple bodies, they immediately knew something 277 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: was up. Now, this is where two things could have happened, 278 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: and it all depends on a fellow named Jim Swan. 279 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: Jim Swan was the developer of the subdivision, and he 280 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: could do he could do one of two things. He could, 281 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: like many unscrupulous developers, just pay off the crew, suppress 282 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: the news of the find, and carry over with the 283 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: construction of Windover Farms, and that is you know, like 284 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: that's a plot point in the horror film Poultergeist, right, well, 285 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: debatably the horror themed family film Poultergeist. There you go, yes, 286 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: building on top of an ancient burial ground of sorts, right, 287 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: and that that only enters fiction because that has really 288 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: happened in multiple instances, not just here in the US, 289 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: but many places abroad. Jim, for one reason or another, 290 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: hopefully because he's a decent human being, maybe because he's 291 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: afraid of legal action, we don't know. Jim decides to 292 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: halt all the work, just like you were talking about, Matt. 293 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: He says, Okay, there's not a pause. We're stopping everything. 294 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: Shut it down. We have to contact the experts. We 295 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: have to determine the providence of these bones. More importantly, 296 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: I have to figure out what we do next. Yeah, 297 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: I've got millions sunk in the subdivision. Probably at this point, 298 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: you know, I was hoping that I could, you know, 299 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: construct it and not go bankrupt. But maybe there's another 300 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: way here, There's something else to do. So he immediately 301 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: reaches out to Florida State University to see if there's 302 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 1: anyone on staff there that can come over and help 303 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: assist identifying these bones, and they speak to Dr Glenn 304 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: Duran d O R A. N and UM again. He's 305 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: he's staff member of the Florida State University UM and archaeologist. 306 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: He shows up on the scene and initially he's looking 307 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: at these bones and he's thinking, oh, wow, these are 308 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: preserved pretty well. They are old. I can tell they're old. UM. 309 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: And one of the first things he sees are the teeth, 310 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: and he notices that they've been ground down, naturally ground down, UM, 311 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: just through wear and tear and not the way you know, 312 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: if someone was was going to physically injure you and 313 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: hurt your teeth or something or filing them or any Yeah, 314 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: it was just natural wear and tear on the teeth. 315 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: But to the point where he he realized that UM, 316 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: from an archaeologist standpoint, these must be thousands of years old, 317 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: or at least that's what he believes, right. He surmised 318 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: initially from his own his own just on the scene assessment, 319 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: that these bones were from a Native American population, according 320 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: to him, do primarily to uh the dentation and due 321 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: to what he thought that told him about the age. 322 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: So he said, these are perhaps a thousand years old. 323 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: He arranged for carbon dating test. This was financed by 324 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: Swan and Swan's company E K. S Corporation, and they 325 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: were shocked by the results. What were those results? Will 326 00:19:51,080 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: tell you after a word from our sponsor. Okay, Now, 327 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: when when we left you, we were talking about duran 328 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: and the carbon dating tests that we're going to be 329 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: done on the bones and the teeth and everything that 330 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: were found there at the Windover site. And there's the 331 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: company E K S Corporation. Uh, they are doing this, 332 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: this carbon dating, and they were shocked when they realized 333 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: the bones were indeed more than a thousand years old. 334 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: In fact, the human remains uncovered at this site we're 335 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: somewhere between seven thousand and eight thousand years old. That 336 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: makes them thirty two hundred years older than King Tut 337 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: in Common and two thousand years older than the Great 338 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: Pyramids of Giza themselves in Egypt. It's incredible to imagine 339 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: in Florida, bones of this age were found and then 340 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: carbon dated to show that yes, in fact, they are 341 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: that old, and these were also modern human beings. This 342 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: was not one of the early mixtapes of humanity like 343 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: uh Neanderthal or something like that. Right, right, right, exactly 344 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: seven thousand and eight thousand years old, is on the 345 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 1: east coast of Florida. Everything that is commonly accepted about 346 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: the spread of the human species argues that the human 347 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: species by and large arrived at North and South America 348 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: what we call those two continents today, by crossing the 349 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: Bearing Land Bridge over what is now the Bearing Straight 350 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: and that in case anyone is not familiar, that is 351 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: in the most opposite corner of the continent that one 352 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: could imagine. It is in the far far far northwest 353 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: and Cape Canaveral, far far southeast. So what's going on? 354 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: They spent two years trying to dig this up. Overall, 355 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: there were three archaeological digs conducted there between six. They 356 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: ended up finding more than two hundred distinct intact burials. 357 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: And you'll hear you'll hear a couple of different numbers 358 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: thrown around. One will be they found two more than 359 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: two hundred burials. One will be like, they found more 360 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: than one hundred and sixty eight bodies, right, And part 361 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: of that is because of the extreme length of time 362 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: that these folks were literally poor choice of words on 363 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: my part bogged down, you know what I mean? Things shift, 364 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: the bones may get jumbled. But the weird thing is 365 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: that despite being in there for almost ten thousand years, 366 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: the better part of ten thousand years, uh, the bodies 367 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: have been ritualistically buried, and with maybe a few exceptions, 368 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: they were all placed in the same position. They were 369 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: in a fetal position, lying on their left side, Their 370 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: heads were pointed west and their faces up to the north. 371 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: In some cases, the next were broken to get this. Yeah, God, 372 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: we don't know why, we can we can? We can 373 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: speculate it best that this shows us some sort of 374 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: belief in the afterlife and ritualistic burial. The deceased were 375 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: also wrapped in what archaeologists believe is the oldest existing 376 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: woven fabric in the world, which is you know, when 377 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: you think of the oldest thing in the world, you 378 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: think of something in Africa and in the Fertile Crescent 379 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: somewhere nearly right or maybe yeah, or maybe a Middle East, right, 380 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: think of something on that continent or in the Middle East. 381 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: You don't really think and it's not a ding again 382 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: on Florida, But you don't think, oh yeah, Florida. That's 383 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: where it is. The oldest fabric ever in Florida. In 384 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: my mind, it would just be in an old beach towel, 385 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: the first one that was ever used, you know, created 386 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: in like Myrtle Beach or Daytona Beach or something. Wouldn't 387 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: it be amazing if it also had uh ancient drawing 388 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: of a cartoon mouse, Oh, turtle or turtle better. No, 389 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: let's fine, let's find both of them. Let's just write this. 390 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: Let's just write this story. It just says salt life 391 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: on it. It just says salt life. Will write this story, 392 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: will bury it somewhere, and thousands of years from now 393 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: a Florida man will discover it with his back full circle. 394 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: So well, that's our show, folks. Thanks for turning in. 395 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: I think we did some meaningful work today. Uh. Yet 396 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: we did find that there were grave goods though that's 397 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: what they're called. Yeah, And it's not even the most 398 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: odd thing that was found here, the oldest fabric, because 399 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: it's the way that this stuff was used, and and 400 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: it's puzzling to me. Help help me understand this a 401 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: little better, Ben, because my understanding is that the bodies 402 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: were actually submerged into the water on purpose using some 403 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: piece of technology, essentially like a tool of some sort. Yeah, 404 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: so they were. They were buried in this fetal position 405 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: with certain body parts responding to certain directions, and then 406 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: branches would be lashed together over them to create a 407 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: tripod which kept the bodies in that fetal position from 408 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: floating up and to prevent them from floating to the 409 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: top of that tripod, they had this. This this woven 410 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: fabric is essentially functioning as a funeral shroud, and a 411 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: wooden steak would be hammered in or or somehow thrust 412 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: through the fabric of the shroud I'm just calling it 413 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: a shroud into the bed of the pond so that 414 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: they would they being the bodies would not float up 415 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: to the top of the the wooden formation that was 416 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: keeping them submerged. And the reason they had to do 417 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: this is because when the body would decompose, it would 418 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: begin to float because it would begin to fill with 419 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: gas and air. The practical step here is that it 420 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: ultimately protects the bodies from the men any many scavengers 421 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: in the area, mostly animals, but there would probably be 422 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: some grave robbers understandably as well. And it kept them 423 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: in that intended again very purposeful position, seems like a 424 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: ritualistic perhaps religious position. Man. That to me is fascinating, 425 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: just the concept that that long ago you would Again, 426 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: maybe this is that thing we always talk about when 427 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: when we discuss European settlers going to parts of Africa 428 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: and discovering these ancient ruins and they think, oh, there's 429 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: no way that they could have an understanding about the 430 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: certain geometry here or this or that. Um, that like 431 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: terrible belief. The institutionalized racism that has occurred over all 432 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: those years. Um, I worry that I'm having a little 433 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: bit of that when I'm trying to imagine, you know, 434 00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: people eight thousand years ago creating an underwater burial almost 435 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: to preserve the bodies. Maybe perhaps they had no understanding 436 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: that they were actually preserving the bodies by doing this, 437 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: but that's in fact what they were doing using all 438 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: of these tools and mechanisms. I mean, it's it's um, 439 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: it's baffling, and it's also really really cool. Right. Yeah. 440 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: The institutionalized racism that has to a great degree stifled 441 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: scientific progress for centuries is still alive and well in 442 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: a lot of places, and sometimes unintentional. I would argue 443 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: I saw a little bit of that at Alien con 444 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: to be candid with you, but you're right here. Generally speaking, 445 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: when people inter or get rid of the bodies of 446 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: their dead and their loved ones or even their hated ones, 447 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: the thing is that you don't want to see them forever, 448 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: especially if you love someone or they're meaningful to your life. 449 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: You want to help them into the afterlife. That's the 450 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: way it's usually phrased. And that will be like by burial. 451 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: Maybe in some parts of the world there will be 452 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: a you'll be consumed by carnivorous birds, which I think 453 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: is sky burial is probably the coolest cremation, right, things 454 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: like that. The idea is that you don't want them 455 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: to come back. You don't want to see if their 456 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: software is gone. You don't want to be haunted by 457 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: their hardware, which is why it's such a such an 458 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: ancient psy op to take the bodies of dead enemies 459 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: and display them where their living can see them. But 460 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: then others want to preserve the body as much as 461 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: they can because the belief is that that body will 462 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: have to come back. Right, Yeah, that's a and to 463 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: certain rules, right, so that's why we have the preservation 464 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: of organs in some societies. That's and also when when 465 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: we go into a secular world, a lot of times 466 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: there's this interpretation where I would say, this assumption that 467 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: burial rituals are all religiously based, which is not the case. 468 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: I mean, think about all the time spent embalming lenin. 469 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: You know, in the days of of the USSR. It 470 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: was not really a religion, but it took the place 471 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: of a religion because it was a symbol, you know, Lenin, 472 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: not Lenin in my head, I heard of lenin. Oh yes, sorry, 473 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: l and I and perhaps my Tennessee accent, and not 474 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: John Lennon. It was Lennen and lennen in lenen In 475 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: Lennon grad that's right. Yeah, alright, we solved the case. 476 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: But but we're saying all this to give maybe a 477 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: little bit more anthropological perspective. One of the most important 478 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: points you made, Matt, that we shouldn't skip over is 479 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: whether or not the people who were entering folks this 480 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: way knew it. What they ended up doing was preserving 481 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: the bodies of their loved ones for thousand, some thousands 482 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: of years. Because the peat bog is an anaerobic environment, 483 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: which means that a lot of the rules of decomposition, 484 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: which are air and oxygen it dependent, will will not 485 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: play out the same way. Also, the fact that's a 486 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: pete bog means that there's a pH balance that's tremendously 487 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: conducive to preserving things. And there's not a lot you know, 488 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: if it's in the ocean or something or somewhere that 489 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: has a current, there's not a lot of physical movement 490 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: occurring there in the biggest variable is the rising and 491 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: lowering of water, the water essentially in these places depending 492 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: on drought or or the amount of rain um and 493 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: that pH balance. To man, oh god, it's so cool 494 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: to me. Okay, so it feels purposeful, right, it's done 495 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: something with all those factors, Like we've been doing this 496 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: for so long. We know that this is the place 497 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: to bury people, and this is how we will do it. 498 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: And though it's been ten thousand, twelve thousand years at least, 499 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: the practice, right and and the the site itself, as 500 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: will come to find, was active for a very very 501 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: long time before it was forgotten and almost became the 502 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: the non consensual foundation of a suburb. We know that 503 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: the environment of Florida was very challenging remains very challenging 504 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: for preservation, and we can explore that in a little bit. 505 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: Right now, let's talk about the life of the people 506 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: who lived in this prehistoric time. About half of the 507 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: remains found at wind Over again, that's anywhere from a 508 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: sixty eight to two hundred something people were children, not all. 509 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: The oldest people found in the site were around sixty 510 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: years old. Unlike the human remains found in European bogs, 511 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, you might think of something and like Ireland 512 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: or Scotland or something, Unlike those remains, the bodies in 513 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: Florida were only skeletons or no flesh on the bones. 514 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: And again a lot of that has to do with 515 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: the climate of Florida. Yeah, the temperature is going to 516 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: make a big difference there, and as you get closer 517 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: to the equator, you will see you know, increasingly inhospitable 518 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: environments for preservation. But also you know, think of think 519 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: of how rare these places are. But if you if 520 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: you go back a few centuries when there was much 521 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: more forest land and jungle lands in the world, Uh, 522 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: those ecosystems, those biomas are hungry, they eat things. There's 523 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: still eating cities. I think a lot of us would 524 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: be surprised how much maintenance goes on into just keeping 525 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: even what you think of as a metropolis alive from 526 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: one year to the next. Can you imagine in Atlanta 527 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: if we didn't have a kud Zoo team going out 528 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: there every day working, working their tails off. I love 529 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: the kudzoo man. I think about it a lot, and 530 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: how out quickly it would grow. Yeah, I'm just kidding. 531 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: I don't think there's an official Atlanta Kudzoo team. Maybe 532 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: there is, if you work for the official Atlanta Kudzoo 533 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: what do we call it? Kutzoo task Force? Yeah, yeah, 534 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: let us know. I mean, yeah, they're definitely they're definitely 535 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: ongoing wars Kudzu is an excellent example their ongoing efforts 536 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: to prevent the spread of cuts, which is technically an 537 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: invasive species right, but adapted amazingly well. So we know 538 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: a little bit about what these people's lives were like. 539 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 1: But the same environment of Florida, which makes it so 540 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: difficult to preserve bodies or buildings, let alone books and 541 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: so on, also teaches us about how they were buried. 542 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: Because despite the fact that there was no flesh on 543 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: the bones, about half of the skulls or so contained 544 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: brain matter. It's pretty gruesome, but it also means that 545 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: they were buried within at the very most, at the 546 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: very upper limit, they were in the pond, interred within 547 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: forty eight hours of expiring, because if they were out 548 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: in the Florida environment any time after that, their brain 549 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,720 Speaker 1: would have liquefied, because that's what Florida does to dead people. 550 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: It's true. We also got to look at their stomach contents, right, 551 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: and that's tricky because you're saying, well, there's there's no flesh. Yeah, 552 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 1: we're approximating, because it looked like it was the jets 553 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: that we learned that for one one corpse they have 554 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: been eating primarily fish and berries, and the ground down 555 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: teeth that you mentioned earlier, Matt show us similar to uh, 556 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: it's the thing Egyptologists have found before as well. In 557 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: places where people live around a lot of sand. The 558 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: sand gets into your food and it naturally grits down 559 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: your teeth. They didn't have cavities they have they didn't 560 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: have cavities. Well, well, you have to imagine it's only 561 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: over a span of sixty years and there's absolutely you know, 562 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: no dental work being done. There's nothing, there's no way 563 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: to help clean or fix your teeth when things are 564 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: going wrong. Um, and that sand just takes it out quickly. Yeah. 565 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: We also know that even though their lives were very difficult, 566 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: they were also very caring with their community. And this 567 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: is this is a big thing that maybe doesn't occur 568 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: to a lot of people when we think of ancient societies, 569 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: but one of the huge, huge leaping points or one 570 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: of the um one of the huge breakthroughs, a watershed 571 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: moment in evolution was the idea of caring for the 572 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: injured and the dead, which is something higher cognition entities 573 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: do so not not necessarily just mammals, you know what 574 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: I mean. There's some birds that will care for the injured, 575 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: and of course there's citations are still mammals, but who knows, 576 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: maybe there's an octopus hospital, you know, maybe, But I 577 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: see exactly what you're saying. In an organized humanoid society, 578 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: a human society taking care of someone who's incapacitated, who 579 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: cannot contribute to you know, the the wealth, essentially the 580 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: health and wealth of your tribe, your group. Then you know, 581 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: for a certain time, there's no reason to have that 582 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: person besides to you know, keep them around because you 583 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: love them, right, or you care about them, or because 584 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: you're a decent Well yeah, but if you if you 585 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: think about it from the most basic needs of a human, 586 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: like a singular human as well as a group of humans, 587 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: it's ah, that's a choice that what you're saying is 588 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: it only comes along with the higher cognition, the really 589 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: thinking about essentially good like doing good. Well, I would say, also, 590 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: there's gonna on very cold. Biologically speaking, an individual human 591 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: has zero value unless something can reproduce a sexually. An 592 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: individual of any species has zero value in terms of 593 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: the big picture. So a group of things that can 594 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: care for one another in groups may lose a couple 595 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: of checkers games, but they will win the chess game 596 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: to go right, So we do know that they were 597 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: playing this chess game right. We found several examples of 598 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: people who would have died quite quickly and probably quite 599 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: painfully had they not have folks caring for them. And 600 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: this again is a huge hallmark of what we would 601 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: call modern humanity. Yeah, there's an older woman and she 602 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: was perhaps around fifty years old. It's kind of an 603 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: estimation there, but she showed signs of having broken bones, 604 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: like several of them, to the point where this person 605 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 1: is not going to survive if it's eight thousand years ago. 606 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: But she she did for a while, at least while 607 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: she was being taken care of. UM. The fractures occurred 608 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: several years before she died. So that's how you know somebody, 609 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: somebody was was doing a lot for this person. UM. 610 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: It really means that there are other villagers, other humans 611 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: around her that helped her even even when she could 612 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: no longer contribute. And that's really what we're saying. There's 613 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: another body of a fifteen year old boy, at least 614 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: again an estimated fifteen year old boy, that showed he 615 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 1: was a victim of UM. Spina bifida, which is something 616 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: intense to encounter in modern day with modern day medicine, 617 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: you can only imagine what it was like then, right. 618 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: Spina bifida as a birth defect that occurs when you're 619 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: the cord of your spine and your actual spine don't 620 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: form properly. It used to be considered a pediatric illness, 621 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: even even relatively recently, meaning that if you survive into adulthood, 622 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: you would just still continue to see your pediatric doctor. 623 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: This kid made it to fifteen, so he was he 624 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: was well on his way to becoming an adult. They 625 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: also saw various different tools. Perhaps one of the most 626 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: heartbreaking things is that every single child that was buried 627 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: there was buried with a couple of toys. Wow, how 628 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: much more human can you get? We have to ask ourselves, Okay, 629 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: these are people, but who were these people? Where did 630 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: they come from? And how did they get there? How, 631 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 1: perhaps even more importantly, did they become lost to time 632 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,439 Speaker 1: for more than seven thousand years. It's questionable answer. After 633 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, here's where it gets crazy. First, 634 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: this was not a mass grave, just a place where 635 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: bodies were thrown just because someone had died and it 636 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: was done. We've already already established that these bodies are 637 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: placed there on purpose and in a way that it 638 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: is meaningful. It's not a massacre as far as it's 639 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: not an all die. At the same time, and we 640 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: also know that this is likely not a matter of 641 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: some kind of uh sacrifice, some kind of ritual that 642 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: was done to to to put these people out of 643 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: their misery or for worship of some other you know, 644 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: deity or or being or something like that. And we 645 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: know this because of the way in which they were interred, 646 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: and because of the the nature of ritualistic human sacrifice 647 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: usually indicates are usually is predicated upon a similar method 648 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: of death. Someone is you know, ritualistically strangled by the 649 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: thug cult, or someone has is vivisected right somewhere in 650 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: Mesoamerica or something this or or in the case of 651 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: bogs in Europe, someone has their throat cut and then 652 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: they're tossed and tossed in a bog. Right, doesn't seem 653 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 1: to be the case here. One of the reasons, one 654 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: of the biggest here's where it gets crazy moments in 655 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: this Windover investigation, which has again been going on since 656 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties, not eighteen eighties as far as 657 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: we know, hinges on the concept of d n A. 658 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: And this goes back a little bit to what you 659 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: were talking about, Matt. You will hear some folks, including 660 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: members of academia here in two thousand nineteen, arguing that 661 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: the DNA tests conducted on the remains indicated that these 662 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: people were descended from Europeans rather than the Far Eastern, 663 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, the far the Far Eastern groups that migrated 664 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: out of Siberia right or through Siberia. This would be 665 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: a huge discovery, but the question is is it true? 666 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: First we have to remember the only way they could 667 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: find anything close enough to try to analyze would be 668 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: that that brain matter the marrow is probably long gone 669 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: and the DNA's rate of decay makes it a lot 670 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: like forget trying to find a needle in the haystack. 671 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: It's trying to find a lottery ticket in a haystack 672 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: and hoping that it wins. And you have to find 673 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: multiple lottery tickets because you can't just test one subject 674 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: and say, oh, this whole group of people they're definitely European, right, 675 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: And in the past people have been way too quick 676 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: to do that. There's a geneticist named Joseph Lawrence from 677 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: the Corey l Institute for Medical Research. He was searching 678 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: for DNA markers that he thought were typical of Native Americans, 679 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: and the DNA samples taken from the bones of five 680 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,879 Speaker 1: different people in wind Over. So so they did, let 681 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: me correct myself there, they did find at least something 682 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: in the bones they could use. He didn't find what 683 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: he was looking for. He did not find those common 684 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: markers he thought would be extant, and so he compared 685 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: the wind over DNA results. He had to present European populations, 686 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: and this is what he said. I went back to 687 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: the screen and looked at the sequences again. The first 688 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: person's DNA it looked European. When I looked at the 689 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: second one, it looked European. When I looked at the third, 690 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: the fourth, and the fifth, it was slightly different from 691 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: the first two, but they looked European. So there are 692 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: three common presumptions that are inherent intrinsic in every interpretation 693 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: of the wind over DNA. The first is the assumption 694 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: that one combination of DNA haplo groups typifies all Native 695 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: American populations. It's demonstrably untrue. There's been well documented Polynesian 696 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: DNA material found in skeletons in northwest Mexico as well 697 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: as southern California. There are early populations of South America 698 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: that also don't necessarily fit that assumption. Also, there are 699 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: no DNA text markers for a lot of indigenous people 700 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: in southeastern US. The researches wasn't quite there at the time. 701 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: And then there's the Ute group, which has consistently stated, 702 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: again in folklore and the importance of world storytelling, that 703 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: their ancestors crossed the Atlantic to the Savannah River. These 704 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: are you'll hear them called the oldest indigenous people's in 705 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 1: the Southeast. Their migration legend states that they found evidence 706 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 1: of an earlier people who had lived in the Savannah 707 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,760 Speaker 1: River basin before them. I think it's clutching at straws 708 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: because that's anecdotal, you know what I mean, But that 709 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mean there's not a grain of truth to it. 710 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: And this whole DNA exploration is where things get so 711 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: sticky because for some more conspiratorially minded people this was 712 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: seen as a gold mine. It was proof that there 713 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: could be some previously unidentified migration patterns in ancient human history. 714 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: It's true there are. We're going to find more as 715 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: we learn more about the expansion of the species. But 716 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. There's there's a thing that used a 717 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: lot of Weasley word language that we found describing this, 718 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: and we've got a quote here, Yes, this comes from 719 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: about archaeology. All those scientists believed they had retrieved DNA 720 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: from the fairly intact brain matter recovered from some of 721 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: the human burials. Subsequent research has shown that the mt 722 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: DNA lineage is reported are absent in all other prehistoric 723 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: and contemporary Native American populations studied to date. Further attempts 724 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: to retrieve more DNA have failed, and an amplification study 725 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: has shown that there is no analyzable DNA left at 726 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: the wind Over burials. So let's unpack this quickly. What 727 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,959 Speaker 1: this shows is that scientists did at one point get 728 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: some DNA material from one uh one or more of 729 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: the brains, definitely more one would one would hope, and 730 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: they found that the mitochondrial DNA lineage reported didn't match 731 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: what we knew about other Native American populations, right, So 732 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: then they said, we've tried or other people have tried 733 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: to grab more DNA material and they can't get it, 734 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: and we think there's no more left. So we shot 735 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: our shot, basically shot our shot, and we got more 736 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: questions than answers. However, this thing we just read from 737 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: about archaeology, well, um, several people take exception to this, 738 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: including someone a researcher named Gary Carson, and we have 739 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: a quote from him. Yeah, Yeah, he unpacks this stuff, 740 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: and he says, I've read this particular passage two or 741 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: three times and it's a masterpiece of hand waving and misdirection. 742 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: He's a little steamed about it. That last part was me. 743 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: The article makes it sound like DNA wasn't discovered after all, 744 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: but it goes on to say that mt DNA lineages 745 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,799 Speaker 1: were discovered that's might have condrodney and subsequently analyzed, but 746 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: then dismisses the analysis because it doesn't match the expected results, 747 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: specifically because it didn't connect the wind Over Bogg people 748 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: with other prehistoric and contemporary Native American populations. In other words, 749 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,280 Speaker 1: according to Gary, the DNA results couldn't be accurate because 750 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: they didn't show that the Bog people were Native Americans. 751 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: So he's he's not necessarily arguing some secret migration from 752 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: some hitherto unmentioned land, but he is saying that these 753 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: people may be committing one of the one of the 754 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: big sins of critical thinking, which is throwing out stuff 755 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,319 Speaker 1: that doesn't fit your preconceived notion. There's a facial reconstruction 756 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,799 Speaker 1: project that you can you can see google wind Over 757 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: a woman online, and they don't they don't appear European. 758 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,399 Speaker 1: But a lot of facial reconstruction like that is interpretive, right. 759 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't know dinos stars had feathers. We 760 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: did forever, but we figured it out because somebody just 761 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: decided one day that they had feathers. That's honestly what happened. 762 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: Is that what happens, Like, dude, these guys got feathers. 763 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: That was you, it was me. I should have been 764 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: on that call. When I grew up, dinosaurs we're just 765 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: all green or brown or gray stripes. Yeah, eighties kids, 766 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: dinosaurs are green, brown, gray, maybe maybe a little tan 767 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 1: light brown. But now they're just multicolored. They got feathers. 768 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 1: I don't believe it. I'm just kidding. I think it's 769 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: wonderful what we're learning. Uh, paleontologists teaching against some things. No, 770 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: I love it. You think there should be a bright 771 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: line between pokemon and dinosaurs. I choose you packy cephalosaurs 772 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 1: so great. So there are there are other opinions here, 773 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,839 Speaker 1: one that argues one that bases his argument on the timeline. 774 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: So time estimates for the arrival of certain genomes or 775 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 1: Janeque material are twelve thousand, thirty six thousand years ago, 776 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,400 Speaker 1: depending on the number of assumed founders, and this supports 777 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 1: the conclusion that people harboring this Haplow group, this, this 778 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: weird one that sticks out right where among the original 779 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: founders of Native American populations to date, Haplow Group X, 780 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: as this guy William Holsworth is calling it, has not 781 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: been unambiguously identified in Asia, which would have been the 782 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: origin point, And to this author raises the possibility that 783 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: some of these Native American founding populations had ancestors somewhere 784 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: else so ultimately came to what we recognize as Florida 785 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: today through some other migration pattern. As the Internet likes 786 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 1: to say, big if true, Big if true, Big if true? 787 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: But is it true? At this point, it seems experts 788 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,279 Speaker 1: are still debating the origin of the ancient wind over 789 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,240 Speaker 1: population and occasionally, if you read closely, accusing one another 790 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: of having an agenda, which is not not at all unusual. Yeah, 791 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that's pretty darn common when it comes to 792 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: things like this, and it's an important debate. It's when 793 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 1: we should treat with extreme seriousness, primarily because of the 794 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: point you raised, Matt, which is it is a fundamental 795 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,280 Speaker 1: point that is all too often skipped over. The human 796 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: species has a long, long, incredibly unfortunate history of institutionalized racism, 797 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: attempting to shoehorn insert favorite group here into so many things, 798 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 1: from pyramids to the ruins of empires to the creation 799 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 1: of civilization. You know what I mean. And this is 800 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: not just This is not just a practice of one 801 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,759 Speaker 1: sect of people from one part of the world, nor 802 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 1: is it the practice of one discipline. And just to 803 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 1: take it back to alien con we see it perpetuated 804 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,720 Speaker 1: there where. If Europeans or some sort didn't have anything 805 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: to do with this, well, then it must be aliens 806 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: making all of these ancient sites. And to the in 807 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,480 Speaker 1: the defense of people who will make those arguments, typically 808 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 1: nowadays they're not just arguing something based on that the loss, 809 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,120 Speaker 1: I say, Stonehenge, How could ancient people have made that? Those? 810 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 1: Look at those the big that's the biggest rock I 811 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,000 Speaker 1: ever saw. It's true. I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing, but true. 812 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 1: It's just something we we cannot stress enough. That is 813 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: um It's it's highly important and remember it when you 814 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: read things. And at least it leads us almost full 815 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: circle here, Matt, because what we're talking about is underestimating 816 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 1: ancient people, which we should never do. These are modern 817 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:43,800 Speaker 1: human beings. Human humanity is slowly evolving. But but people 818 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: thousands of years ago were as smart and as capable 819 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,759 Speaker 1: of of invention and ingenuity as people are today. So 820 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 1: this is where it gets us to a weird spot. 821 00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,160 Speaker 1: And this is maybe where we end today's conversation and 822 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: to hear from to hear from you, folks, if you know, 823 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:08,840 Speaker 1: if if we accept there's absolutely true that ancient people's could, 824 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: through their own ingenuity and their own mcgivernus, build things 825 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: like stonehinge, like pyramids like Catalahok and so on, doesn't 826 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,080 Speaker 1: that mean we also need to be open to the 827 00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,759 Speaker 1: idea that that same ingenuity could be applied to migration 828 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:31,240 Speaker 1: and travel, absolutely especially over water, especially over water. Thank 829 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in today, folks. I know 830 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 1: that I know that we had some some diversions here, 831 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: but but this is a real and unfolding story. We 832 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,120 Speaker 1: would love to hear what you think. Have you visited, 833 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: uh the wind Over site and if so, what are 834 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: your experiences or this doesn't have anything to do with 835 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: wind Over ancient sites throughout the world, what do you 836 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,359 Speaker 1: visit in your neck of the Global Woods. We would 837 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: love to hear your stories, anything from burial side to 838 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: cave paintings to any any traces of humanity from from long, 839 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:11,480 Speaker 1: long ago. Tell us about your local your locations. Yeah, 840 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:18,240 Speaker 1: let's say anything older than twelve hundred a D. That's great. 841 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 1: Pick that one because I think that's that's around the 842 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,240 Speaker 1: time of the phantom time hypothesis. Right, I can't remember 843 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 1: we have no you're right, it's the middle, it's the 844 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: Dark Ages. Right, let me let me correct that phantom 845 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: time is uh a D six fourteen to nine eleven 846 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: eight to ask what it was. Yeah, so let's just 847 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: say any any Let's stick with twelve D said twere 848 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,920 Speaker 1: any any time before twelve hundred And you know what 849 00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,240 Speaker 1: if you visited something that was built in the twelve 850 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,400 Speaker 1: hundreds and it is still around and you're like, guys, 851 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 1: I think that was twelve seventy three, that's fine. We 852 00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: still want to know. We want to hear the story. 853 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: Please a right to and if your name is Chris 854 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: Cogswell and you have a podcast, right to us too, 855 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,560 Speaker 1: because I'd love to. I'd love to interact with you. 856 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,879 Speaker 1: Ben got to now and I want to know more. 857 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,719 Speaker 1: And also Mary Mayhew, who was the co host of 858 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,279 Speaker 1: that podcast that now I can't remember. I remember, Chris 859 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: Cogswellings Mad Scientist Something podcast, Matt Sidentist podcast. I'm really interested. 860 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,400 Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna have to listen. So you can reach 861 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,600 Speaker 1: us at the aforementioned telephone number. We are one eight 862 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: three three s T D W y t K. You 863 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,840 Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram. You can find us on Facebook, 864 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,760 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. We highly recommend hanging 865 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: out with our favorite part of the show, your fellow 866 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 1: listeners on Here's where It Gets Crazy. That's on Facebook. 867 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,080 Speaker 1: It's a group you can talk about the show, anything 868 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: you you've been thinking about with that stuff in particular, 869 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,560 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and mention it now. Ben, a lot 870 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 1: of people have been writing to us about the David 871 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: Eike interview. If you have thoughts on that, please continue 872 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,399 Speaker 1: to write to us. We're going to have some more 873 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,439 Speaker 1: discussion internally and with you about it as well. And Hey, 874 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,839 Speaker 1: you might be saying I have something that I would 875 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: love to tell you. I have a show that my 876 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 1: fellow listeners need to hear, but I hate social media. 877 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,319 Speaker 1: Why do you guys still have a Facebook page after 878 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,239 Speaker 1: you told me about how bad Facebook is. Yeah, and 879 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,279 Speaker 1: we were right. We have to have one. We have 880 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,400 Speaker 1: to have it. Uh. And I hate being on the phone. 881 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,160 Speaker 1: It's twenty nineteen. Real friends text I don't know how 882 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: to get in contact with you. All I use is email. Well, 883 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: do we have some good news for you? You can 884 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,800 Speaker 1: indeed write us an old fashioned email. We are conspiracy 885 00:55:39,880 --> 00:56:01,520 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want 886 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,360 Speaker 1: you to Know is a production of iHeartRadio's How Stuff Works. 887 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 888 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.