1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Dear listener. This episode contains a mention of an incident 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: of sexual violence. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 2: Well, what happened with Erasutlan Dante is that with the 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: years it sold more and more copies, more and more copies. 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 2: It was amazing. This was no marketing team that sold 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: this book. Kids sold this book to each other. 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: From media. It's Latino USA. I'm Maria no Josa Today. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: A journey to the Borderlands with author Mehamine Alide Science. 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: Mehamine Alida Science. Wouldn't want to live anywhere else but 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: in El Paso. 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: Texas near Palos. I love this town. And you know, 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: and as people ask me when they look at me, 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: like why there's no talking to them, you know, like 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: they would never get it. 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: Born to a Mexican American family near the border, Mahamin 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: grew up on a small farm outside of a small 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: town called Messia, New Mexico, just forty miles away from Elbaso. 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: But Mahamine's life would end up taking him far and wide. 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: After high school, he moved to Colorado and entered a seminary. 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: He was a priest for several years until realizing that 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: his calling was the written word. Right before turning thirty, 22 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: Mahamen walked away from the church to study creative writing. 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: He eventually enrolled at Stanford University, where he was a 24 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: Stegner Fellow. It was there where he wrote his first 25 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: poetry collection, Calendar of Dust, which won a nineteen ninety 26 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: two American Book Award. Mahamen had lived across the United States, 27 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: but he realized his heart was always on the border, 28 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: and this region would inspire some of his greatest works. 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, now settled back in Elbaso, he released 30 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: a collection of short stories set into the Aquades. It's 31 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: called Everything Begins and Ends at the Kentucky Club. It 32 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: won the Penn Faulkner Award for Fiction, making Behamen the 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: first Latino to earn the prize, and then Aristotle and 34 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: Dante came along. The book Aristotle and Dante Discover the 35 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: Secrets of the Universe is a young adult novel about 36 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: two teenage Mexican American boys in Elbaso in the nineteen eighties. 37 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: They forge a close relationship which opens them up to 38 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: new experiences, and along the way, they fall in love. 39 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: The novel won a lot of awards, and it made 40 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: us splash. 41 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: In the literary world. 42 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: But it's the readers who have made it. 43 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: A true phenomenon. 44 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: Aristota and Dante has found its way to audiences around 45 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: the world, especially young queer LATINX readers who see themselves 46 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: reflected in the pages of this book. Benghamen, a gay 47 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: Latino man who came out just a few years before 48 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: the book was published, found Solis, in Airy and in 49 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: Dante Io. 50 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: Those boys, I know them because they're me and I 51 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: understand them. And writing that book, I always say that 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: writing has saved my life, and I think that's true. 53 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: Mahamin recently released a long awaited sequel to Aristotle and Dante. 54 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: It's called Aristotle and Dante Dive into the Waters of 55 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: the World. The novel became an instant bestseller. Banjamen sat 56 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: down with me and we discussed well a bit of everything. 57 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: We talked about his Mexican American identity, Catholicism, and how 58 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: he found his true calling as a writer. Mayhamine, welcome 59 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: to Latino, USA. And by the way, is it Benjamin 60 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: or Ben quite? 61 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: But I few it is. Well, it's it's Benjamin, Benjamin 62 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: or Ben And I like Benjamin. 63 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: You like Benjamin the most. 64 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 2: I do now because I'm not a little kid anymore. 65 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: And ben Hami was what my parents called me. When 66 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: they were mad at me, they would say signs. 67 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: So I want to kind of go back to where 68 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: you grew up. You're in Albaso now, but you actually 69 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: were born and raised on a small farm in rural 70 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: New Mexico. Sometimes people forget how close El Paso is 71 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: to you. It's like next door to literally next door, 72 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: And so I'd actually love for you to describe it. 73 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: Were you like, oh my god, the world is my oyster, 74 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: everything is mine? Or were you god, we're kind of 75 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: invisible out here in the middle of nowhere, or was 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: it something totally different. 77 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 2: Well, I was invisible too. I was the fourth of 78 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: seven children and we're all about a year apart, and 79 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: I always kind of felt invisible and nothing was actually 80 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: mine except my toothbrush, and even then sometimes I wondered. 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: But I liked being invisible because I lived in my head. 82 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: I was the kid that always got lost. And then 83 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: living on a farm, we weren't integrated into society. Really. 84 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: My parents spoke English, but they didn't speak at home. 85 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: We really kept Spanish intact, and we lived very separate 86 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 2: and segregated from the dominant society, and it remains segregated 87 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: in my lifetime in the sense of schools were integrated, 88 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: but we didn't hang out with geringhos hearty at all. 89 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: My mom called them los Americanos. 90 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: Even though you all were American citizens. 91 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she said, yoso Mehicana. And I'd asked, Mom, 92 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: you're confusing me. You've never been to Mexico And she says, no, well, no, 93 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: in Porta, you also in Mexicana. And that's how she 94 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: thought of herself. And my father was I thought more 95 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: reasonable because he called himself when the time came, a Chicano, 96 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: which is what I called myself, because that made sense 97 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 2: to me for my identity. I didn't feel like a gringo. 98 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: I didn't feel American. I didn't feel like a Mexican 99 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: because we were two Portos. 100 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: So you said that you lived in your head, that 101 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: the fact that you were on this farm, you know, 102 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: you were battling for attention or just one of so 103 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: many kids. And so I'm wondering when you were in 104 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: your head, were you writing or were you just dreaming 105 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: or were you making up stories? 106 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 2: Like yeah, I was, you know, I have to backtrack. 107 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: You know, I was also at that time sexually abused, 108 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: so I had developed a way of escaping. And then 109 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: I would write stories, and I became a storyteller, a 110 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: story writer in my head. 111 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: Can I ask you something? I'm sorry to interrupt. You 112 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: kind of said, well, you know, I was sexually abused 113 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: as a kid, but I found a way to deal 114 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: with it by becoming a writer. And I'm like, okay, 115 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: that went really fast. There was a big leap there. 116 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's because you disassociate. 117 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: Did you understand that you were using writing as a 118 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: way to disassociate from what you were experiencing? 119 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: No, no, no, I did not. Only on looking. 120 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: Back, what did you understand the writing to be then 121 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: for your life? 122 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: I could tell a story that had absolutely nothing to 123 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 2: do with my life. So, for instance, I used to 124 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: relye on on the ground and look up at the 125 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: summer clouds. The things I would see were not my reality. 126 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: I would see elephants, I'd see Africa. I'd see palm trees. 127 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: I'd see all kinds of things that were completely unrelated 128 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: to me, my surroundings and my culture. 129 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't mind, can you talk a 130 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: little bit about the abuse, just because it seems like 131 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: obviously it was part of your formation as a young 132 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: man and an understanding how to deal with trauma. But 133 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, what can you tell us about surviving abuse 134 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: at that age? And how old were you? 135 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: Oh, maybe six fives like that, So you're five years old, 136 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 3: six years old, the sexual abuse goes on for a year. 137 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: Were you told like, look, you don't talk about this. 138 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: Was it clear that this was something that you were 139 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: not to discuss ever in your whole life? 140 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: It was clear to me. You know, It's funny how 141 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: without knowing it, we protect our parents. I think would 142 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: have devastated my mother. That was one lady I really 143 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: loved my whole life. She was a great person, and 144 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: so it seemed I mean, you know, you're a kid. 145 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: You don't tell yourself this is what you're doing. I'm 146 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: not saying to myself, I'm particuting my mother. Just kind 147 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: of do things by instinct, and you survived by instinct. 148 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: And I have to say, I don't really like talking 149 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: about this, but I have to say it's ironic and interesting. 150 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: It was that that made me a writer. 151 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Well maha, mean, I have to say I wasn't immediately 152 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: going to ask you, and yet you kind of made 153 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: it clear, like in your life as a writer, surviving 154 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: this abuse by becoming a writer was kind of central. 155 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and I have an amazing life, but I know 156 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: that I learned to be a survivor. I think I 157 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 2: spent a lot of good deal of my life because 158 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: of what happened to me in self lowly, but that's 159 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: not unusual for many survivors abuse to at physical abuse 160 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: as well to not like themselves. You know, we blame ourselves. 161 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: We develop what some would call impostor syndromes, and so 162 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: we feel like we're always a fraud. And my therapist 163 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: always reminded me, Benjamin, who writes your books? Well, that's 164 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 2: just the question. I do, well, Lintin, You're not an impostor. 165 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: You write those things. This is you. But we kind 166 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: of live in fear that they're going to find us out, 167 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: the real us, whoever that is, and we do get 168 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: past it. I'm sorry I went for help so late 169 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 2: in my life because I just thought I remembered it. 170 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: It was a part of me. So I thought that 171 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: I was okay, but I wasn't. I mean, I managed 172 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of people that would tell 173 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: you that when I was in high school that I 174 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: was like Dante, You're Dante, But really I was more 175 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: like airy. I wasn't interpere pressure, you know. I couldn't 176 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: be pressured into anything I didn't want to do. I 177 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: wasn't interested in fitting in, and I wasn't interested in 178 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: not fitting in either. A lot of nobody read, you know. 179 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: I was a reader, and the guys would go buy 180 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: it on bicycles, and they go and they called me hote, 181 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: and they call me all this stuff because I was 182 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: like reading and I didn't care. I flip them off 183 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 2: with a bird and keep reading because I didn't want 184 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: to be like them. I was a real dork. 185 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: It's interesting the word that you choose to name yourself dork. 186 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: I'm stuck on the word that was being hauled at 187 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: you as an insult at a very young age. It's 188 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: a very aggressive anti gay word in Spanish hotel, which 189 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: actually means means right. It's it's roto because you're a 190 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: man who is broken, and I'm wondering that's a very 191 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: to be called that at a young age, and you're like, 192 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: I just walked back I didn't. Yeah, I was reading 193 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: my books, but still. 194 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I'm sure that on some level, 195 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: and I was hurt, but I really lived in my books, 196 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 2: and I started reading to escape, and I wound up 197 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: reading to confront the world I lived in. 198 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: But you were also dealing with like serious straight up homophobia. 199 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like one hundred percent in your face, verbally 200 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: accosting and probably physically violent, just because you had been 201 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: labeled as somebody who was different, in this case gay. 202 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: Yes, But it's hard for me to describe myself because 203 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: I was an overachiever. I went to seminary. I want 204 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: to become a Catholic priest, and I a good student, 205 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: and I knew I had a good mind, and I 206 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: knew I had a great mind. Actually that was some 207 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 2: consolation because I could live in the world of books 208 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 2: and I could live without a body. Right, I didn't 209 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: need a body, But eventually you need a body, and 210 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: you need to accept your body and its desires. That 211 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: took me a long time to come to grips with 212 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: and it has really kind of, in many ways shaped 213 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: my life. But you would think that it would all 214 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: be negative, but it isn't. It sounds like it. But 215 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: I'm not an angry person. I'm passionate about things. I 216 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 2: get mad like anybody else. But but you. 217 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: Don't have You're You're basically saying you don't have that 218 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: rancor that anger. Although I do find it interesting that 219 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: the decision that you make as a young person is 220 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: to turn to Catholicism some spirituality and not just I 221 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: go to church and I find soulis but I'm going 222 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: to become a priest. We could do the entire interview 223 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: talking about Mexicans, Catholicism, the priesthood, but there is also 224 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: an element of and I'll just be honest with you, 225 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: but almost like if you joined the priesthood or you 226 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: became a nun, it was because, yes, you were being called, 227 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: but also because you were turning away from something. And 228 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you look at your decision to become 229 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: a priest. Was it definitively I'm turning away from anything 230 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: that has to do with the body, with has to 231 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: do with touch, passions, sexuality, all of that. It's all bad. 232 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm turning away It. 233 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: Just it wasn't that I was like I grew up Catholic. 234 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: We'd go to confession once a month because our mother 235 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: sent us. And you know, we were in a Catholic 236 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: youth groups, and I was very political, and my huge, 237 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: huge heroes were people like Dorothy Day who started the 238 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: the Quirker movement, and Thomas Merton, who was a spiritual guy, 239 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: and then the Barrigan Brothers who were radicals. All of 240 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: these people to me were like heroes, and they were Catholic, 241 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: of course, and I was Catholic. It wasn't so bad 242 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: to me because some of the priests were not so great. 243 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: But my mother was the best Catholic I knew when 244 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: she was a wonderful person. So Catholicism didn't bring with 245 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: it a lot of the baggage, perhaps because the way 246 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: I grew up. 247 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: You know, I have to say, may I mean the 248 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: fact that you're like citing the Barrigan Brothers and the 249 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: Catholic Worker movement. This is all like deep liberation theology. 250 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: Basically the perspective that Jesus Christ and everything he symbolized 251 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: was about social justice and really working on behalf of 252 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: the poor. So you were like a kind of radical 253 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: Catholic priest. I mean, am I right? In the sense 254 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: that you were like it's about justice. 255 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and one of the reasons that so disappointed 256 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: me when I was a priest is that, wow, I 257 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: was blown away at a little concern there was about 258 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: social justice. And it has really that theology which I 259 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: got from my mother, who absolutely believed that God was 260 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: the God of the poor, as I do, and that 261 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: hasn't changed in me, which is incredibly frustrating, because I 262 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: think that Christianity is something incredibly radical. I mean, Christianity 263 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 2: demands that you love, and it demands that you forgive. 264 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: It doesn't ask that maybe it demands it of you, 265 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: and you know, it's an impossible religion actually, But that 266 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that doesn't mean that we have to be 267 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: so damned hypocritical about things. 268 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: Either the hypocrisy in the Catholic Church fueled you or 269 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: was it part of also again, beh mean kind of 270 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: understanding your life as contradictory itself. 271 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: When I was a pret it was so many terrible priests, really, 272 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: so many terrible things going on, and I was amazing 273 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: to me, how can you just look the other way 274 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 2: all of the time about any of the troubled priests. 275 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 2: It wasn't just the sexual things that the priest did, 276 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: but things like I was with a pastor once and 277 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 2: when he left because they moved him, he took everything. 278 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: There was no money in the accounts of the furniture, 279 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: everything in the rectory, which was paid for by the people. 280 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: He took everything. There was nothing in there. Nothing. What 281 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: did they do to him? Nothing? That was the Catholic Church. 282 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: When I was a young priest. You know, I was 283 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: ordaining when I was twenty six. I left right before 284 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: I was thirty. And what I really really resented is 285 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 2: that when you are discerning, you're supposed to have spiritual 286 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: directors that help you discern whether you're called to be 287 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: a priest. There is no discernment. They just want a body. 288 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: They don't help me discern whether I'm really called to 289 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 2: be a priest or not. I did that on my own. 290 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: And when I discerned that I was not called to 291 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 2: be a priest, there was nothing to do but leave, 292 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: because that was the honest thing to do. It doesn't 293 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: matter that I didn't know what else to do with 294 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: my life. I had to leave. I did, though. That's 295 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: what we get to the part about me being a writer. 296 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: I knew that I was called to be a writer. 297 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 2: I was convinced of it. 298 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino Usa Mehamim Alide Signs follows his 299 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: calling as a writer and brings Aristotle and Dante to life. 300 00:18:31,280 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: Stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back. I've been speaking 301 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: with author Benjamin Alire Signs. After Behamen embraced his gift 302 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: for writing, he used it to write a groundbreaking story 303 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: about two queer Latino boys falling in love in El Paso, 304 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: Texas in the nineteen eighties. But that's not where the 305 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: story ended, and nearly a decade after the first book, 306 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: Behamen released a long awaited sequel. I actually want to 307 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: move into your work as a writer, your work with 308 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: the most amazing young reader's book called Aristotle and Dante. 309 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: The full title Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of 310 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: the Universe. It was released in twenty twelve, and it 311 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: is one of those books that a lot of readers 312 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: grew up with in the years leading up to the 313 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: big news about your sequel. So we actually went out 314 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: and talked to our listeners, Mahaman, and we asked them 315 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: about Aristotle and Dante. And so here are a few 316 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: of your fans. 317 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 4: I can't even begin to explain just how much it 318 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 4: meant to have these books out, not just as a 319 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: lesbian Latina individual, but also having been born and raised 320 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 4: in Olpaso, and born and raised in a part of 321 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 4: town that Aristotle and Dante takes place. I can't even 322 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 4: explain just how much it hit home. 323 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: It's the story about accepting yourself and others as messy humans. 324 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 2: I wonder, you know, had I read this when I 325 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: was a teenager, could this have saved me a lot 326 00:20:59,040 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: of grief? 327 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 5: This book really helped me realize that there's a lot 328 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 5: of beauty and a lot of poetry in those struggles 329 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: that I went through as a queer kid in Texas. 330 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 5: But I think most importantly, it showed me that I 331 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 5: wasn't alone in those struggles and those experiences. 332 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: Obviously, you've been hearing this because the book came out 333 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, and these are the kinds of love 334 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: poems that your readers have for you and for Aristotle 335 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: and Dante. And I'm figuring that you were a bit surprised, 336 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: or were you not? 337 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I wasn't very surprised. You know, I 338 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: get messages like that today because young people are still 339 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: coming along and reading it. My best friend told me 340 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: that if I didn't read this book, she wasn't going 341 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: to talk to me anymore, you know, and stuff like that. 342 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: The most surprising, though, is from people my age. Are 343 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: older men right to me, and all these messages have 344 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: two things in common. They say, I wish I'd had 345 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 2: this book when I was growing up, and the other 346 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 2: one is they tell me, reading your book healed the 347 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: broken boy that lived inside of me, and that makes 348 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 2: me weep. Writing for me it was literary, right. We 349 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: want to be a good enough writer that you're considered 350 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 2: a literary writer, but our endeavors are not literary. Not 351 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: when you write young adult novels. Of course, you want 352 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: to write well, and you always want to write a 353 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 2: good book. If you're half a writer, you always want 354 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: to push yourself to be more excellent. But when you 355 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: write for young people, I take that very seriously, and 356 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: to me, it's like my job is to give young 357 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: people hope because I believe that the world conspires to 358 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: take their hope away, and I believe that if young 359 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: people lose their hope, we have no future. And I 360 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,479 Speaker 2: write with that in mind. I do. It's important to 361 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 2: me the young people understand that the world sucks and 362 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: the world that we have given them is really shitty 363 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 2: in many ways, and it's violent and it's broken and 364 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,239 Speaker 2: it's mean. But there are so many beautiful things in 365 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 2: this world, and one of them are them. Them. They 366 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: give me hope. Young people give. 367 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 1: Me hope, especially if they are able to kind of 368 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: really be their full selves. And I'm wondering about I mean, 369 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: maybe people don't know, but the young reader's market is 370 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: actually a very important market in the book world. But 371 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: it's not easy to write for young people. And I'm wondering. 372 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: You're a star for a lot of young people, and 373 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that brings you a tremendous amount of joy 374 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: as a human being, maybe even more so as a 375 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: human being than even as a writer. 376 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 2: It does. But also it would be nice if my 377 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: books were famous and didn't drag me along for the ride, 378 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:57,479 Speaker 2: you know. 379 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 4: I just. 380 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 2: I've never been this happy. I've never been disgraceful for 381 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: my life, for my heart, for everything in my life. 382 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: And really I finally arrived at a place called serenity. 383 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 2: It took me a long time, and serenity isn't compatible 384 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: with celebrity, but I have to say, you know how 385 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: many copies that book sold when this first week Aristotlan Dante, 386 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: how many eleven the book was dead eleven books compared 387 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 2: to the sequel, which sold thirteen thousand plus in the 388 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: first week. It did not seem that this book was 389 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: going to be what it became. It wasn't promising. I 390 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: had an editor who loved the book, and I didn't 391 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: really think that a lot of people were going to 392 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: read it. And you know why, You know how they 393 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 2: have those writers' conferences and you go and there's agents 394 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: out there, and you give them a pitch, right, can 395 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: you imagine this pitch? Two boys Latinos Mexican Americans, nineteen 396 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 2: eighty seven, Elpaso, Texas. They fall in love. What do 397 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 2: you think They look at you like, oh, you poor bastard. 398 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 2: But I you know, I can write, and I thought 399 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: the book was good. Well, I think this book became 400 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: what it became because on the day that it was published, 401 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: my mother died. She knows, she always told me then, 402 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: coming to a dying day, she said the hat they 403 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: get it. She says, you can love people, but you 404 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: don't let them love you. And I think that's what's 405 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: devastating about my mother's death is that I let her 406 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 2: love me. I always say this to people. Think I'm crazy. 407 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 2: I think she blessed that book. I do, she said, Migo, 408 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: me boy. 409 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: But I'm going to give you a best seller. 410 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm going to give you something, Mihito. 411 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you're talking about so much love for 412 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: your first book, because the sequel is actually set in 413 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: a time that might be considered dark but also in 414 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: some ways hopeful too. Waters of the World. The sequel 415 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: is set in the midst of the AIDS crisis. That's 416 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: a lot again for young readers. But you made a 417 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: decision and I'm wondering why. 418 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 2: Well, the reason I wrote the sequel was because I 419 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: had left out the AIDS epidemic out of the first one. 420 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: So you almost feel like you had some guilt about 421 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: the fact that this was happening and you weren't even 422 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: talking about it. 423 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 2: Yes, because it was. The first book was so internal, 424 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 2: goes inward. It's very intimate about Arian and Dante and 425 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: his mother and their parents and a couple of friends 426 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: in there. But that was about as big as that 427 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: world was, and they live in in a much bigger 428 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: world and you know, I lost a brother today's I 429 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: lost my mentor, Ardudo is Islas, who was from Alipasa, 430 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 2: also gay, and he was a professor at Stanford. And 431 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: I lost one of my closest friends who was ten 432 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 2: years younger than I was. And he was Dante. It's 433 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 2: just like Dante, and it was beautiful and gifted and 434 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 2: a musician, and he played the baroque violin and his 435 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: name was Norman. These people are lovely people, and we 436 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: lost so many people, so many gifted and talented people, 437 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 2: and it's enraging and it's heartbreaking. 438 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: When I think about being Mexican, Mexican American. As much 439 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: as Mexicans and Mexico is very open and accepting, there's 440 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: also a lot of repression, a lot of hiding, a 441 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: lot of the way I was raised. You don't talk 442 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: about it. So thinking about actually the AIDS epidemic and 443 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: the border left on data and in particular how the 444 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: Mexican and Mexican American community was impacted by AIDS but 445 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: by the silence. 446 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: By the silence, and there was so much silence, and 447 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: then between all of that so much love. I think 448 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: I grew up with them that people still love their children. 449 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 2: They just didn't want to talk about it. If you 450 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: can even get your lover here and we won't call 451 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 2: them your lover and they're welcome here, Gonad, I know, 452 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 2: but it was hard on people. I think that's what's 453 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: so important to know who you are. And a story 454 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: is very much along with the aids. We're talking about 455 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: men and acceptance. What is it mean to be a man? 456 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: Aris Suttlan Dante are growing up this coming of as 457 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: novel to soon be men? What does that mean? You see? 458 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: For me, when I finally embraced my identity as a 459 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 2: gay man, then it was an opportunity for me to 460 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: define my own manhood. And I think we have to 461 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 2: as gay man. And that does say to him, never 462 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: do anything to prove to yourself or to anyone else 463 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: that you're a man, because you are one. 464 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: I can't imagine how hard it is to grow up 465 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: when you are surrounded by homophobia and hyper masculinity. And 466 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: by the way, these things, yes, they exist in the 467 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: Mexican community, but they exist in every community. But certainly 468 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: there is something that is particular if you are Latino 469 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: and you are gay, and I'm wondering if you wanted 470 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: something in particular that you wanted to capture about the 471 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: experience of a queer Latino boy and kind of pushing 472 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: against all of those pressures. 473 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: You know, writing comes from who you are and what 474 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: you are for as long as it took me to 475 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: come to terms with myself. When I come to terms 476 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: with myself, I come to terms with myself and I 477 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: feel really comfortable in who I am, and I write 478 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: from that space. And so what I wind up doing 479 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: in that book is I normalize gayness and I normalize 480 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: being Latino in those books. That's the key. I don't 481 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: perform my own ethnicity and I don't perform my own 482 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 2: gayness either. Nobody can tell me that. I know. Straight 483 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: people don't mean to be condescending, but they can be. 484 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 2: You know, when they say, well, it doesn't matter to 485 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: me if you're gay, I mean I don't. I don't 486 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: see you as gay. You know, you're just a person. 487 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 2: And I don't go around telling straight people that, well 488 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I know you're straight, but you 489 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: know what I look past that. You know, it's the 490 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: same bullshit. And they don't know because straight people do 491 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: speak out of privilege. I mean, my Latino peeps might 492 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: well take over America one day, but the gay people 493 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: will not. And because we will always be a minority, 494 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: we will always rely on the good will of straight 495 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: people for our survival. And that makes me sometimes angry. 496 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: That doesn't make me incredibly sad, but it's true. If 497 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: straight people decide one day the tie turns against us, 498 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: it will turn against us. And so therefore I think 499 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: it's it is important for me to be a writer 500 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: to normalize us and to normalize us Latino because there's 501 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: lot of racism against Latinos in this country, and so 502 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: that they do see us as normal. 503 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: So we're going to end on an up note, and 504 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: you kind of make a decision behind mean to actually 505 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: end the sequel for Ari and Dante with a kind 506 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: of happy ending, And I'm wondering about your decision to 507 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: give them a happy ending, and it kind of takes 508 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: us almost to the beginning of our interview where you 509 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: said I'm in a place of serenity, and if that 510 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: had anything to do with your decision to have Ari 511 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: and Dante have a happy ending. 512 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: When I was writing that novel, I was a mess. 513 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: I've I've had the weirdest schedule I'd write until three 514 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: in the morning. I'd get up at six in the morning. 515 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: I was a madman. You know, the real story is 516 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: in most time time they break up. But this is 517 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: arian Dante. You want break hundreds of thousands of kids' hearts, 518 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: you know, have them break up. Go ahead, you know, 519 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: be mean, no, because I do think their story in 520 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 2: my mind and in the minds of my readers continue. 521 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 2: I think that's an appropriate ending, because arian Dante now 522 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: have become arian Dante, and the two names don't exist 523 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: apart from each other, which is crazy because they're not 524 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: real people. And yet one of my editors told me 525 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 2: that then you don't write characters, you write people. That's 526 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: what you do. And I do think that's one of 527 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 2: my gifts. I have a lot of compassion for my 528 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: fellow human beings and their troubles and the mysteries and 529 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: the contradictions that we are. Most people are really incredible 530 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: and moving and lovely, and I am happy to be 531 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: a human being and live my struggles alongside other people. 532 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: Oh my love. And I think that Aristola and Dante, 533 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 2: in its own way was an amazing journey. And look 534 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: at we thought when we were growing up that only 535 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: white people could be representations of the world. Two gay 536 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 2: Latino boys have become universal. From Elbaso, from Elbaso, from Elchuco, 537 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: you wouldn't know how to rely on that that book 538 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 2: was translated into twenty four languages, because it makes my point. 539 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: They translate, you know, they translate well. 540 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: Bang, I mean, thank you so much for speaking with me. 541 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: This was such a joy. 542 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 1: And you know what, Aristotle and Dundee they are everywhere. 543 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: They were invisible and then you have brought them hyper 544 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: visibility to us and to the entire world. So thank 545 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: you so much, Bejamen for becoming the writer that you are. 546 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Maria. 547 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: Aristotle and Dante. Dive into the Waters of the World 548 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: is available now, and Ari and Dante are also coming 549 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: to the big screen soon. A film adaptation of the 550 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: first book just wrap shooting, and it's got some big 551 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: names attached, including Eva Longoria, Elheno de Rebes and lin 552 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: Manuel Miranda. This episode was produced by Alejandra Salasad and 553 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: edited by Mitra Bonschahi. It was mixed by JJ Carubin. 554 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: The Latino USA team includes Andrea Lopez Grussado, Marta Martinez, 555 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: Mike Sargent, Julieta Martinelli, Victori Estrada, Patricia Sulvaran, Gini Montalbo, Rinaldo, 556 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: Leanos Junior and Julia Rocha, with help from Raul Berees. 557 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: Our editorial director is Julio Ricarella. Our supervising senior Engineer 558 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: is Stephanie Lebau. Our assistant senior engineer is Julia Caruso. 559 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: Our associate engineer is gabriel A Bias. Our digital editor 560 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: is Luis Duna. Our fellows are Elisa Vena, Monica Morales 561 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: and Andrew Vignalis. Our theme music was composed by Zenia Rubinos. 562 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: If you like the music you heard on this episode, 563 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: stop by Latinousa dot org and check out our weekly 564 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: Spotify playlist. I'm your host and executive producer Maria na Posa. 565 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: Join us again on our next episode, and in the meantime, 566 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: look for us on all of your social media. I'll 567 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: see you there. 568 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 2: BAYI. 569 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 6: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Annie 570 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 6: Casey Foundation, creates a brighter future for the nation's children 571 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 6: by strengthening families, building greater economic opportunity, and transforming communities. 572 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 6: The wind Coade Foundation and funding for Latino USA is 573 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 6: Coverage of a culture of Health is made possible, in 574 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 6: part by a grant from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. 575 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 2: I have two Yorkis. 576 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: All right, well, I need to see pictures because I've 577 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: got a mini picture. 578 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, my Chewi is just the most adorable thing. 579 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 2: His name is Jesus Antonio Sciens, but we call him Chewy. 580 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: I definitely want to see pictures.