Speaker 1: The Around the NFL podcast Big Bone.
Speaker 2: Randy is beautiful from the Chris Westling podcast studio.
Speaker 1: It's Around the NFL.
Speaker 2: Yeah he is, because beauty comes in all shape and
Speaker 2: soysus case in point. I am Dan Hansis I am
Speaker 2: joined by Greg Rosenthal.
Speaker 1: Ladies two options on the spectrum.
Speaker 3: I mean you might want a third option. I don't know,
Speaker 3: but yes, I think you're only two options. We show
Speaker 3: the various ways men can be beautiful and you can
Speaker 3: check that out are differing, you know types on my
Speaker 3: last Instagram post on our little photo shoot we took
Speaker 3: one day when Mark didn't show.
Speaker 2: Up for striking the photos, striking the differences in physical builds.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we forget because we work so closely and then
Speaker 2: you see a photo.
Speaker 3: By the way, to be clear, Randy is Randy Bullock
Speaker 3: that the everybody knows that I know, but just to
Speaker 3: make sure, because we do have someone in the chair
Speaker 3: also name is Randy.
Speaker 1: Well, you're talking about Big Funk, Big Funk.
Speaker 3: I don't want the listeners who are just joining the
Speaker 3: show and maybe weren't work with us.
Speaker 1: But this is such a twenty fourteen season.
Speaker 2: It's such a Greg slash Larry David moment. I mean, like,
Speaker 2: why are you connecting the dot? You know that's borderline
Speaker 2: body shaming itself.
Speaker 3: I'm not connecting any dots. We have a we have three.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry that the people with the microphone right now
Speaker 3: one of them is named Randy. I think it's okay
Speaker 3: to tell the people about the history of Randy Bullock
Speaker 3: from the Texas.
Speaker 1: Just being a little fresh. It was Mother's Day. You
Speaker 1: go see your mom's like, have you been exercising? And
Speaker 1: then you come that one I've got.
Speaker 4: We all get it.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you get the birthday gift that's like Jim closed,
Speaker 2: It's like, oh yeah, all right, mom, I got you.
Speaker 2: By the way, Uh, there is another there's another body
Speaker 2: type not in the studio right now. Mark Sessler is
Speaker 2: not with us today, but he'll be back on Wednesday.
Speaker 1: Leave it there. Coming up on today's show.
Speaker 2: It's many thirteenth, and yes, happy Mother's Day to all
Speaker 2: the moms who listened to this show, which there are
Speaker 2: dozens and everyone. I hope you were good to your mom.
Speaker 2: Were you good to Deb Rosenthal?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 3: I mean she's in Massachusetts, so it would have been nice
Speaker 3: to be there. Yeah, spoke enough and some flowers, the
Speaker 3: same stuff talked t had a big week. She had
Speaker 3: a special art show in Martha's Vineyard. If anyway it
Speaker 3: happens that to be in Martha's Vineyards, it's still going
Speaker 3: the next three weeks check out at the Vineyard Playhouse
Speaker 3: with Debbie Rosenthal retrospective.
Speaker 2: What I mean do you ever think do you ever
Speaker 2: think you're or brother Dean correct? Yeah, a very talented musician. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like almost a virtuoso, right.
Speaker 3: Went to Yeah classical he composes classical music and went
Speaker 3: to school for it. And yeah, he's great, more talented
Speaker 3: than you.
Speaker 1: Your mother.
Speaker 2: She's actually has showcases and arguably more talented. In the
Speaker 2: Rosenthal Power rankings, you might be third. That's all just
Speaker 2: throwing it out. There's an option. It's me Rade, I
Speaker 2: got your back.
Speaker 1: Tom. Give him some to think that he lays his
Speaker 1: head on the pill.
Speaker 3: We decided who was more talented when I took him
Speaker 3: out as like a twelve year old on a tennis court.
Speaker 1: So he's fourth. You can figure dubs or you can.
Speaker 2: Because it's May thirteenth, we're gonna do random stuff like
Speaker 2: just talk about tight ends today.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about tight ends.
Speaker 2: Tight end palooza with John Ledyard, who is a really
Speaker 2: really smart football guy who does the Audibles and Analytics podcast,
Speaker 2: among other things, and he's going to join this on
Speaker 2: that conversation.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's hit the news just overall.
Speaker 5: It hit me this morning about three thirty four in
Speaker 5: the morning. Woke up staring straight at the ceiling and
Speaker 5: said to myself, it's not just another day, it's two day.
Speaker 5: And uh, maybe that's just another way of saying attack
Speaker 5: this datement an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. But yeah, it
Speaker 5: was a it was a great day.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Jim Harbaugh.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to pinch yourself and remind yourself that
Speaker 2: Jim Harbaugh is back in the NFL.
Speaker 3: I love it. I love that he's Justin Herbert's coach.
Speaker 3: I love that he's the Chargers coach. Just gives them
Speaker 3: a certain stature they just I've been I've been wanting
Speaker 3: out of him. I've been I've been wishing that they
Speaker 3: have every year when I predict.
Speaker 1: Them to do well and they and I know you
Speaker 1: will again this year. Yeah, Now, isn't it Is it
Speaker 1: fair to say that? And maybe this is just like
Speaker 1: my perspective on it that.
Speaker 6: Seems a little bit more off kilter than his last
Speaker 6: NFL stay, like not not deranged or anything, but maybe
Speaker 6: eight percent more kind of old Jim.
Speaker 3: He's sixty years old, so I think we're starting to
Speaker 3: find this. We're in our forties, and you see this
Speaker 3: with older friends or family members, Like as you get older,
Speaker 3: I think you become even more of who you are,
Speaker 3: Like whatever care you had about trying to hold back
Speaker 3: the parts of yourself that maybe weren't as you know,
Speaker 3: like just boring or average, and you're just like, he doesn't.
Speaker 3: He's Jim Harbo. He just won the national championship. He's
Speaker 3: going to lean into all things hard.
Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like there might be a tipping point
Speaker 2: in that realm when you're the leader that's an organization.
Speaker 1: But maybe we're not there yet.
Speaker 2: By the way, just out of curiosity, because there is,
Speaker 2: and check it out on YouTube.
Speaker 1: He's behind these.
Speaker 2: Like shaded glasses and the eyes are kind of bulging
Speaker 2: a little bit, and he's looking toward the heavens as
Speaker 2: he's saying these kind of crazy things. I just figure,
Speaker 2: let's hear what it sounds like with a little music
Speaker 2: music accompaniment, just just overall hit me.
Speaker 5: This morning about three thirty four in the morning, woke
Speaker 5: up staring straight at the ceiling and said to myself,
Speaker 5: it's not just another day, it's two day. And uh,
Speaker 5: maybe that's just another way of saying attack this day
Speaker 5: when an enthusiasm unknown to mankind.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was a it was a great day.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know what I mean now what
Speaker 1: I was expecting. But I see what you're where you're
Speaker 1: going here.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, if you like, just look at it
Speaker 2: from a little bit of a different angle. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a little disturbing that he's running an NFL team now, Like,
Speaker 2: if I'm a Chargers fan, I'm ninety percent thrilled about this,
Speaker 2: ten percent terrified.
Speaker 1: I I hear that there's a little bit of terrified.
Speaker 3: Like he John Harby always has thought, has had that
Speaker 3: little there's like a little bit I'm a little scared
Speaker 3: of John.
Speaker 1: What's really that John? Jim is like that to another level.
Speaker 3: The thing I'd be scared about is, yes, the history
Speaker 3: of guys, after all the success that he had, at
Speaker 3: some point they get to one stop and then you
Speaker 3: look at it in the rear view mirror and you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: that was kind of a bridge too far.
Speaker 1: That was like the last contract that he got, So
Speaker 1: that's not But I.
Speaker 2: Disagree with you that John gives me any type of
Speaker 2: similar vibes, if that's what you're saying, because John is
Speaker 2: no doubt intense as well, and he could be very
Speaker 2: demonstrative and when he gets fired up, but there's just
Speaker 2: something a little different about Jim. John would agree with
Speaker 2: you on that. Iagine I agree. All right, let's get
Speaker 2: to the news finally. Yes, the schedule will be released.
Speaker 2: We can say this not breaking news. It's coming on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: and we will our schedule this week will reflect that
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a little different. We'll do a Wednesday
Speaker 2: schedule release show. We don't know everything obviously about the
Speaker 2: schedule right now. Leaks will are inevitable. That's how we're
Speaker 2: leading up to Wednesday. But the one thing we do
Speaker 2: know is what The NFL announced that the season will
Speaker 2: kick off with the defending Super Bowl champion Chiefs facing
Speaker 2: the Ravens at Arrowhead on Thursday night.
Speaker 1: The game will be on NBC.
Speaker 2: Of course, Gregi a rematch of the AFC title Game,
Speaker 2: which was played in Baltimore. The Chiefs won that game
Speaker 2: seventeen to ten, and then won their third title in
Speaker 2: five years. They are the Kings of the Castle, so
Speaker 2: it makes sense that they kick off the season last
Speaker 2: year a great opener where they got picked off by
Speaker 2: one point by the Lions. That is the Kadarius Tony game,
Speaker 2: as I recall it as a Patrick Mahomes and I
Speaker 2: think Katarius Tony fantasy owner.
Speaker 1: But this game should be similarly exciting to watch.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wasn't thrilled, just because I like the Ravens
Speaker 3: and this is a tough spot.
Speaker 1: Though you know Lines pulls it off. Why not the Ravens.
Speaker 3: It's obviously as one of the most exciting games on
Speaker 3: the calendar. I wanted Texans personally. I just thought that'd
Speaker 3: be nice, the new fresh CJ. Stroud opening night, like
Speaker 3: new quarterback versus mohammeas, but I guess I'll settle.
Speaker 1: For a ring. Yeah.
Speaker 2: My only quibble is the because that's why I thought
Speaker 2: Chiefs Lines was perfect last year. Yes, Intra conference or
Speaker 2: whatever these mega tilts for that, could you know, decide
Speaker 2: tiebreakers at the end of the season happening in week
Speaker 2: one after you know nobody even plays in the preseason anymore.
Speaker 2: It's a little early for a game this Titanic. But
Speaker 2: also we're all going to be, you know, chopping at
Speaker 2: the bit to watch it, so you can't really get
Speaker 2: after the NFL in that one either.
Speaker 1: So that will be how the season starts.
Speaker 2: And then I believe is that this year they'll have
Speaker 2: a Friday night game also.
Speaker 3: The Brazil game, so NBC gets back to back games.
Speaker 3: I think it's Peacock Friday Night in Brazil, Eagles, Packers
Speaker 3: and Ravens.
Speaker 1: You start you on Thursday. How about that? How about that?
Speaker 3: In other news, we also got to get the international
Speaker 3: games get their own little mini show on NFL network
Speaker 3: Wednesday morning to announce the international game. So that will
Speaker 3: be before the rest of the schedule.
Speaker 2: I have an announcement, by the way, that will be
Speaker 2: coming up for the international audience. So I'll say no more.
Speaker 2: But that's a tease as well. In other news, you know,
Speaker 2: connected to the schedule. It's all connected. In other news,
Speaker 2: fire the trope alert off because the Las Vegas Raiders.
Speaker 1: Want you to know. Yeah, go ahead, the.
Speaker 2: True Antonio Pierce with that interim tagged freshly ripped off,
Speaker 2: has a quarterback decision to make well. I think most
Speaker 2: of us assume it's Gardner Minshew who they signed in
Speaker 2: free agency, who will be the QB.
Speaker 1: But Pierce said, uh, this week, when was it? Did
Speaker 1: he say it? There's I believe that over the weekend and.
Speaker 2: Over the weekend that Aidan O'Connell has quote earned the
Speaker 2: right to have the first snap.
Speaker 1: Do we have the sound of that.
Speaker 7: Aiden is already kind of taking a bull by the
Speaker 7: horn and he's leading away and Mention's right there doing
Speaker 7: as well. Two guys has played and he saw him
Speaker 7: play against each other last year and they went neck
Speaker 7: to neck. But I'm really excited to see what happens.
Speaker 7: I think he's gonna be a process. We're gonna stick
Speaker 7: to the process. But as I said before, Aiden's earned
Speaker 7: the right to go out there and get the first nap.
Speaker 1: Mmmm.
Speaker 3: It was actually a little surprised by that. I mean,
Speaker 3: they gave Gardner minshew a lot of playing time. It
Speaker 3: is worth remembering. And Steve Paulozzola from the PFF pot
Speaker 3: I did last week, actually he was the first person
Speaker 3: I heard say like he wants to see what Aidan
Speaker 3: O'Connell can do. I was like, well, that's the take
Speaker 3: I haven't heard, and then you think about it. It's like,
Speaker 3: I mean, Aidan O'Connell was pretty solid for a rookie.
Speaker 3: I put it this way. He was a lot better
Speaker 3: than Bryce Young. He was a lot better than a
Speaker 3: lot of first round picks we've seen over there. It's
Speaker 3: in their rookie season. Like he was just like a
Speaker 3: solid player and he's interesting aggressive throw. I think the
Speaker 3: upside's pretty small. But saying that makes me think, Okay,
Speaker 3: he's got a shot. It's not that crazy.
Speaker 2: Gardner, Uh, not that crazy, but I find it to
Speaker 2: be unlikely. But you know, he's playing the game the
Speaker 2: way he wants.
Speaker 1: To play, by the way.
Speaker 2: I do like the idea of AFC West, Antonio Pierce
Speaker 2: and Jim Harbaugh.
Speaker 1: I feel like they're not gonna like each other. I
Speaker 1: see like a nice little feud. You think that too
Speaker 1: funk right, He's shaking his head, but it's weird.
Speaker 3: Eric Roberts is in the building, he's in the production
Speaker 3: you know, bass here, and he's just watching over Randy
Speaker 3: shaves his shoulder. It kind of reminds me it's like
Speaker 3: what Bill Belichick was trying to avoid when Bill Parcells
Speaker 3: tried to name him the coach of the Jets.
Speaker 2: Right, it just sounds like another brilliant decision by management.
Speaker 2: Here's what's behind this anyway?
Speaker 3: Well, my baby is due soon. No, I think it's good. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it makes sense. I'm just it's funny watching
Speaker 3: literally have him watched.
Speaker 1: He has sat in for.
Speaker 8: Me a couple times in the past weeks for like
Speaker 8: ultra sound appointment stuff like that. So I don't know
Speaker 8: what's more stressful, me being out of the building and
Speaker 8: knowing this is happening, or me being like not five
Speaker 8: feet of this and like kind of I don't want
Speaker 8: to backseat drive, you know?
Speaker 1: Right? What how about for funk?
Speaker 2: Like the idea of someone not just figuratively looking over
Speaker 2: your shoulder, but literally looking over your shoulder and telling
Speaker 2: you whether you're doing things right or wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm used to it. I've known Eric for like five
Speaker 1: plus years.
Speaker 2: Okay, is he one of those buddies judging.
Speaker 1: I would impressed that one. It's like, I wouldn't. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't hit that sound. I'm like, okay, for sure, unbelieve
Speaker 1: that's classic team.
Speaker 2: That's how it goes, how it goes In other quarterback news, Uh,
Speaker 2: you know bully to the Bears.
Speaker 1: They're not playing that game.
Speaker 2: Caleb Williams is supposed to be the guy who's going
Speaker 2: to take the franchise out of permanent mediocrity.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: They pick him number one overall and they are not
Speaker 2: messing around because he is the QB one on May thirteenth.
Speaker 1: Good job, guys. Here is Matt Eberfluse on that decision?
Speaker 1: Has he even told that he's the starter? Going and
Speaker 1: training gept you and have to have that conversation. No conversation,
Speaker 1: he's the starter. I mean, look at this ebra Flus.
Speaker 1: I like that. Actually he looks good. I mean totally different.
Speaker 3: The flu sclow up is really crazy this news I
Speaker 3: liked you said that, and he said, you know what
Speaker 3: he wants to see out of Caleb boyas just don't
Speaker 3: get ahead of yourself and everything. It made me think
Speaker 3: for a sec I was like, oh, yeah, well of
Speaker 3: course he's, you know, the starter, but who are even
Speaker 3: the options?
Speaker 1: And I was like, it's.
Speaker 3: Tyson Bagent and Brett Rippin. I wouldn't mind a veteran
Speaker 3: in there. I wouldn't mind Ryan Tannehill behind Caleb boy
Speaker 3: Maybe Ryan Tannel doesn't want that kind of gig. I
Speaker 3: don't know, but you're one injury away from Tyson Bagent
Speaker 3: and you don't need a veteran there to maybe help
Speaker 3: out your guy.
Speaker 2: Or, as Mark Sessler would say, Brett Rippiam. All right,
Speaker 2: so let's see, let's see, let's see, let's see news.
Speaker 2: This just went on before we This just went down
Speaker 2: right before we started. We have a major payday for
Speaker 2: Antoine Winfield.
Speaker 3: Four years, eighty four million dollar extension, forty five million
Speaker 3: dollars guaranteed. I want to see how this is structured there.
Speaker 3: You can make it sound any sort of way, but
Speaker 3: it's probably the best contract for a safety year.
Speaker 2: Here is an ever huge, huge headline banner headline on
Speaker 2: nfl dot COM's landing page. Winfield Junior becomes NFL's highest
Speaker 2: paid dB.
Speaker 1: History. Okay, that's where I will. I want to see.
Speaker 1: I want to see the details.
Speaker 3: Is it like an extension off the franchise tag that
Speaker 3: he had already? I don't even know. I guess not.
Speaker 3: That's amazing. I think he probably is the best safety
Speaker 3: right now to bet on. I think his season last
Speaker 3: year was so exceptional it's kind of hard for a
Speaker 3: safety to repeat that season year after year.
Speaker 1: The guys that can do that become Hall of Famers.
Speaker 3: He's been a little not up and down, because he's
Speaker 3: always been a very good player, but he's had two
Speaker 3: of these seasons out of four where he really popped
Speaker 3: out and like, they would not have made the playoffs
Speaker 3: if not for Antoine Winfield making these plays, especially in
Speaker 3: that Panthers game where he stopped him from going up big,
Speaker 3: and they would have basically been knocked out of the playoffs.
Speaker 1: So he has made an incredible amount of good plays.
Speaker 3: Yeah, considering Derwin James is healthy, he's probably safety one
Speaker 3: right now in the NFL.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last huge safety contract I remember is Jamal Adams.
Speaker 1: I know there's been others, but Minca got a nice
Speaker 1: Niga did too.
Speaker 2: Adams, for instance, was known more as like a box
Speaker 2: safety guy that can do some damage. But Winfield is
Speaker 2: a real all around type player.
Speaker 1: And this is interesting. Schefter pointed out he.
Speaker 2: Is the first time it's the first time a safety
Speaker 2: has been named the highest paid defensive like in NFL history,
Speaker 2: So that, I mean, that's a big deal. And again
Speaker 2: the numbers and how it's cooked up, maybe it's not
Speaker 2: quite that.
Speaker 1: But also he's one of those rare.
Speaker 2: Guys that was a first team All Pro and did
Speaker 2: not make the Pro Bowl.
Speaker 1: How does that happen? I don't know. My Pro Bowls
Speaker 1: are overrated.
Speaker 3: We'll get to that later on our historic look back
Speaker 3: at the tight end position.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, a good call.
Speaker 2: In other news, the Jets, they have really improved their roster.
Speaker 1: I've talked about that. I've, you know, I've.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to keep it in perspective and understand so
Speaker 2: much cautious optimism and a lot of the reason for
Speaker 2: their you know, hitting the brakes on just full out
Speaker 2: optimism is you know, the Nathaniel Hackett of it all,
Speaker 2: which is an offensive coordinator that is clearly was out
Speaker 2: of his depth last year once Aaron Rodgers went out
Speaker 2: for the season. Immediately he had a terrible of course,
Speaker 2: one year run with the Denver Broncos, didn't even making
Speaker 2: the full year as a head coach, so his his
Speaker 2: stock is at its lowest, and there was this idea
Speaker 2: like why is he even still the oc.
Speaker 1: Let's hear some Nate Hackett. By the way, we got
Speaker 1: to hear some Nate.
Speaker 2: There was this this idea like, why wouldn't you replace
Speaker 2: him now? Connor Hughes of s n Y, who used
Speaker 2: to cover the Jets on their beat and but still
Speaker 2: remains attached to the team in some ways, said that
Speaker 2: the team did internally Greg Look made quote legitimate attempts
Speaker 2: this offseason to hire someone who would essentially replace Hackett,
Speaker 2: not as a new offensive coordinator, but a title above
Speaker 2: who would run the show.
Speaker 1: My question of that is an easy one. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: then why did they do it? Right? Just my name's
Speaker 1: Nathaniel Hackett. Thanks, it's nice to see you out here.
Speaker 2: I mean, if they were that serious about it, how
Speaker 2: can they weren't able to identify someone and now instead
Speaker 2: you're just going to go into this year the same
Speaker 2: as last year, and it's a legitimate concern.
Speaker 3: Well, they have to answer questions about that too. That's
Speaker 3: my biggest takeaway from this, which is that's uncomfortable for him,
Speaker 3: for Robert Sala, for this to be out there. It's
Speaker 3: just gonna be brought up, like if they struggle on
Speaker 3: offense to start the season. The reporting of it's a
Speaker 3: little odd though too. You know, Hughes puts it in
Speaker 3: a mail bag like gives it the headline. But it's
Speaker 3: like the fourth question in a May mail bag and like,
Speaker 3: that's a big If you're reporting something like this to me,
Speaker 3: is a real story, report it with your chest and
Speaker 3: really make it.
Speaker 1: Am shot against the mail bag guy. No, I'm just saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: a little bit. Whoa.
Speaker 2: But it's not like a regular beat reporter anymore either.
Speaker 2: It's I don't know, we can't really who cares about
Speaker 2: Connor Hues is like the deep dive into what he
Speaker 2: does and how much writing is doing. But maybe this
Speaker 2: just for him makes sense.
Speaker 3: And to be fair, they were going to try to
Speaker 3: hire someone above him. It sounded like he wouldn't get
Speaker 3: fired in that scenario, but they were.
Speaker 1: They were trying to which would appease hypothetically the Rogers.
Speaker 3: And I don't I don't take anything into the fact
Speaker 3: that he, you know, he noted how often Rogers, you know,
Speaker 3: I guess this is in the pre you know, in
Speaker 3: the practices, would just completely change plays based on what
Speaker 3: he was seeing and not run Hackett's call. And if
Speaker 3: that was a sign that the OC is not a
Speaker 3: good sc literally every o c Aaron Rodgers has ever
Speaker 3: had like was a problem, didn't ever expect That's just
Speaker 3: why Aaron Rodgers does, and it's mostly what you know
Speaker 3: has helped Aaron Rodgers be great.
Speaker 1: So I'm not holding that against the thing you hang
Speaker 1: it that part of it. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Damn,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Let's move on, Bill Belichick, you know, finally, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not happy with the way Bill is being meant
Speaker 2: to sing for his supper this offseason. But here's one
Speaker 2: thing I can get behind because this feels like it's
Speaker 2: in his wheelhouse and doesn't put him in a situation
Speaker 2: beneath him. Bill Belichick will appear every week on The
Speaker 2: Manning Cast this season, so that is the alternate Monday
Speaker 2: night football telecast that has both Manning brothers.
Speaker 1: So I guess he'll I don't imagine he'll be.
Speaker 2: On the whole show, Greg, but he'll be on a
Speaker 2: section of the show, maybe one quarter of the show.
Speaker 2: And that sounds like it's gonna make that show even better.
Speaker 2: Because if I could say there is one negative to
Speaker 2: the Manning Cast, it's very when it goes guest heavy,
Speaker 2: which is the nature of the show.
Speaker 1: If it's a guest I'm not really into. Yes, it
Speaker 1: kind of ruins the flow of it. Because I do like,
Speaker 1: like I think many people do.
Speaker 2: You like to hear Peyton and Eli kind of chopping
Speaker 2: it up, been going back and forth about the strategy
Speaker 2: of the game with Bill.
Speaker 1: They'll be able to do that, you would imagine at
Speaker 1: a very high level.
Speaker 3: Believe the report indicated it would be like first quarter.
Speaker 3: So he's gonna have all this preparation. He's going to
Speaker 3: be coming on what's happening by how these teams are looking.
Speaker 3: I mean, he's also can get to bed a little earlier.
Speaker 3: That way, you know, maybe if he wants.
Speaker 2: More agism, that's perfect. I am with a warm cup
Speaker 2: of milk. So he's in bed by ten.
Speaker 3: Greg, I'm just saying, these games are on late and
Speaker 3: fourteen years old. You just want it to be an
Speaker 3: easier lift. If you're Bill Belichick, can I pick my quarter? Okay,
Speaker 3: I'll take the first. I'm with you. The parts where
Speaker 3: it's just Manny and Elight. To me, they should just
Speaker 3: have faith that that's the best part of the show.
Speaker 3: And I've always thought watching this show, if they did
Speaker 3: two guests instead of four, it'd be better, Like, just
Speaker 3: just pick two guests.
Speaker 2: We don't need it every quarter. And Peyton is so
Speaker 2: Peyton is so skilled in the media. He does a
Speaker 2: great job that he's able to kind of show run
Speaker 2: in real time. But sometimes you can see the gears
Speaker 2: turning on Peyton that he has to like maneuver certain
Speaker 2: things as like the host of the show all elis
Speaker 2: just doing his ELI thing, Like just let Peyton cook too,
Speaker 2: so he doesn't have to worry about doing that because
Speaker 2: some of us can do it easily, like some of
Speaker 2: us can be high level entertainers and steer the show.
Speaker 2: Some of us struggle a little with it. That's that's
Speaker 2: just the way it is. Greg talk about takes the
Speaker 2: show where it needs to go.
Speaker 3: You know, we've all improved though, you know from that
Speaker 3: they're now entering year three. I'm with you, and I like,
Speaker 3: I like, what about my uli.
Speaker 2: Barry Horowitz patting myself on the back monologue there.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about myself too, that all of us, when
Speaker 3: I've listened to that first season of shows, we all
Speaker 3: got better.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, reps help and everything in life.
Speaker 2: Uh real quick, Mike McCarthy, Cowboys head coach Zeke Elliott
Speaker 2: is back in the building and there's this horrifying thought
Speaker 2: of Zeke Elliott and all the pop the hood stats.
Speaker 1: Around Zeke are horrific. That he is a.
Speaker 2: Good goal line back, perhaps still or a competent one,
Speaker 2: but is maybe the slowest running back in the league
Speaker 2: or high up on that list. He can't possibly be
Speaker 2: their starter in twenty twenty four, while Mike says probably not.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't think that's fair. I mean, what
Speaker 4: do you mean? I mean, he guy carried a ball
Speaker 4: more than anybody in history of football in the first
Speaker 4: couple of years. You know, that's that's not going to
Speaker 4: be his role. You know, we're we're running back by committee,
Speaker 4: you know. But I think he'll definitely play at the
Speaker 4: level that he's played. I know, my time here, I
Speaker 4: anticipate that. I don't see, you know, any drop off
Speaker 4: in the way he moves.
Speaker 1: He's in good shape, all right.
Speaker 2: So Mike's gonna say that in May, but he's obviously
Speaker 2: a much lesser player at this point. Zeke and I
Speaker 2: feel like this is a team they're gonna add somebody,
Speaker 2: somebody's gonna shake free, or they're gonna make a move.
Speaker 1: It just feels like that depth chart's not done, do you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm doing projected starters for NFL dot Com. The
Speaker 3: first one's up AFC East and yeah, looking at that Cowboys,
Speaker 3: it's like Rico Dubtele or Zeke Orduce Vaughan.
Speaker 1: They'll probably add someone late in camp, you know.
Speaker 3: I found though looking this up, looking at Zeke's numbers,
Speaker 3: he was the leading receiver by receptions at least for
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty three New England Patriot. Though, if you
Speaker 3: want to know why that offense, Uh, that's one one
Speaker 3: way to use zero in.
Speaker 1: That's horrifying.
Speaker 2: It's pretty I might have to like, have you say
Speaker 2: that's stat again with this scary Jim Harborough music under you?
Speaker 1: All right? Uh, quick hitters Patriots.
Speaker 2: Zeke's former team hire Elliott Wolf as their personnel chief.
Speaker 2: We talked about that last week that it was coming,
Speaker 2: and now it is a deal. The Chargers signed pass
Speaker 2: rusher Bud Dupree Zay Jones, the wide receiver heads to
Speaker 2: the Cardinals. Oh your boy, Greg Washington's second round pick,
Speaker 2: Johnny Newton needs yet another foot surgery.
Speaker 1: It's explaining why he fell in the draft.
Speaker 2: And uh, remember you try to bury that info to
Speaker 2: win a sandwich prop But I said, does he have
Speaker 2: any medical red flags? And he was like no, no, no,
Speaker 2: Now he's having another I mean, I hope he keeps
Speaker 2: the foot.
Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, another surgery. It's not what
Speaker 1: you want right off the bat.
Speaker 2: And finally sad news, Former Chargers General manager A. J.
Speaker 1: Smith passed away over the weekend.
Speaker 2: And AJ Smith Greg was a very notable figure in
Speaker 2: Chargers history.
Speaker 1: He was there during In fact, he's the winningest GM
Speaker 1: in Chargers history.
Speaker 2: He kind of was the architect of those great early
Speaker 2: you know aughts Chargers teams and also never got over
Speaker 2: the hump in the playoffs obviously, but built some really
Speaker 2: damn good rosters in his time there.
Speaker 3: He's one of those guys that I think about if
Speaker 3: we had a podcast then he would have been a sneaky,
Speaker 3: huge figure in it, because those were the best teams.
Speaker 3: Year after you had the fourteen and two season where
Speaker 3: it was one of the best regular season teams I've
Speaker 3: ever seen that lost in the playoffs to the Patriots,
Speaker 3: and then they fire Marty Schottenheimer after a fourteen and
Speaker 3: two season and A. J. Smith and Marty Schottenheimer had
Speaker 3: these kind of knocked down, drag out stuff where impressers.
Speaker 1: A J.
Speaker 3: Smith was really cutting to his team to his coaches,
Speaker 3: to the reporters, and he was that dude.
Speaker 1: And he also stared down the Manning family, made Eli Manning.
Speaker 3: Hold up the Chargers jersey, and while that was happening live,
Speaker 3: this is pre Twitter, like, we didn't really know how
Speaker 3: that was gonna go, and he didn't totally know either.
Speaker 1: He had a good feeling that it's like they're gonna
Speaker 1: blink and they're gonna give us what we want.
Speaker 3: And he got Philip Rivers and yeah, they were always good,
Speaker 3: the North Turner ones with him never quite got over them.
Speaker 3: They were always like a nine to seven team, but
Speaker 3: he built up some superpowers and was a weirdly huge
Speaker 3: figure in the NFL for like six seven years.
Speaker 1: So rip a j Smith.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they lost that the crushing Patriots game with all
Speaker 2: that bad blood I as a Jets fan.
Speaker 1: The Jets knocked off two big.
Speaker 2: Time Chargers gems where they were the underdog in both years,
Speaker 2: both times in San Diego, and that was obviously just
Speaker 2: kind of the story of those teams filled with talent,
Speaker 2: big time regular seat and then could never get over
Speaker 2: the hump.
Speaker 3: But the one time they overachieved, they get to the
Speaker 3: conference finals and there it's Philip Rivers with the torney
Speaker 3: sal playing on a torn a ceo. Danian Thomlinson kind
Speaker 3: of moping on the bench. Come on, also hurt, but
Speaker 3: that's why it is moping.
Speaker 2: Don't mope, fight through it anyway. A j Smith passes
Speaker 2: away at the age of seventy five.
Speaker 1: Rest in peace. Let's take a break and when we
Speaker 1: come back, it's John Ledyard time.
Speaker 9: Blurs it out in the flat caught Kelsey forty five
Speaker 9: across midfield hurdles a defender George Kettle chucking away, go
Speaker 9: underneath and this is clot from a joke.
Speaker 1: Could carry the defender on his bench.
Speaker 2: Jackson points cruising down till Andrews got free.
Speaker 1: Remark couldn't give it.
Speaker 2: Two and they cut it anyway more than chitch by
Speaker 2: Andrews wit two seconds.
Speaker 1: Back on the clock. There he is a rookie porter.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a big year in twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: for the tight end and now we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about it, both the current class and a little atm
Speaker 2: history lesson going back in the last thirteen years or so,
Speaker 2: and to help us.
Speaker 1: Along on that ride.
Speaker 2: As a man who knows his ball, he is a
Speaker 2: host on the Audibles and Analytics pod.
Speaker 1: You could find him all over the place.
Speaker 2: In fact, John Ledyard, Welcome to around the NFL.
Speaker 9: Hey, guys, is an honor to be with you, guys.
Speaker 9: I'm excited to talk some tight ends with y'all.
Speaker 2: How did a feel when Greg Rosenthal, the man who
Speaker 2: once built rode a world brick by brick with his
Speaker 2: bare hands his calloused hands, connected with you randomly and said,
Speaker 2: do you want to talk about tight ends?
Speaker 1: Hey?
Speaker 9: Well, I didn't have it on my bingo card, but
Speaker 9: I was greatly honored. Greg and I have fought each
Speaker 9: other for a while, and so it was exciting when
Speaker 9: he jumped in and was like, Hey, would you like
Speaker 9: to jump on this pod? And I was like, you
Speaker 9: guys have probably more fun than anybody else in the
Speaker 9: NIMAL on a podcast. You're definitely in the top five
Speaker 9: of the fun rankings, and so I was like, man,
Speaker 9: opportunity to talk ball with those guys as a dream
Speaker 9: come true. So I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I like it.
Speaker 3: And you mentioned yeah, rankings, so that's it's the off season.
Speaker 3: I like little rankings. We're gonna do, We're gonna do,
Speaker 3: take a little snapshot. We might revisit this various times
Speaker 3: in the off season. It's fun to kind of take
Speaker 3: a snapshot of a position, talk about where they're at now,
Speaker 3: and then also, yeah, we're going to look back and
Speaker 3: try to decide who are the best tight ends of
Speaker 3: the since twenty ten?
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking who knows ball?
Speaker 3: And I've been listening to the Audibles and Analytics podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm a relatively recent convert during draft season, a little
Speaker 3: late later in the playoff season, and you and Annie
Speaker 3: Ollie Connolly, I should say, do a great job. So
Speaker 3: everyone should check out John's substack right and with it.
Speaker 3: And I also felt bad because I gave him a
Speaker 3: lot of like homework kind of it was like a
Speaker 3: little as we're a little ass minute, I try not
Speaker 3: to give you kind of want to give homeworks. But
Speaker 3: he seemed like of all the people and this is
Speaker 3: meant as a compliment that wouldn't feel like maybe it
Speaker 3: was a huge burden last minute to all of a
Speaker 3: sudden conjure up multiple sets of rankings.
Speaker 1: I thought John would be a honest show. It is
Speaker 1: that how you feel.
Speaker 9: Would he read it extremely well? I may or may
Speaker 9: not do this in my spare time, so I may
Speaker 9: or may not have been prepared.
Speaker 2: But you know, while John is perhaps an exception, I
Speaker 2: just want everyone to know out there that has a podcast,
Speaker 2: which is most of America and beyond. H when you
Speaker 2: have someone on as a guest, don't try not to
Speaker 2: give them a homework assignment.
Speaker 3: Depends, depends, depends if you give him like a week's notice,
Speaker 3: at least not twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: I mean, just take it easy. Okay, they're coming on
Speaker 2: your show. That should be enough. Let's get into it. John,
Speaker 2: you came up with a list. Let's start with the
Speaker 2: modern day, the current, the twenty twenty three into now
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four tight end class. We each submitted to
Speaker 2: our production team our top ten, and then I believe
Speaker 2: Funk and ETP did there wiz and took those three
Speaker 2: options or those three lists and made it into one
Speaker 2: Mondo list.
Speaker 3: Right, So we do not know the results of these rankings.
Speaker 3: Let's put them up. We do not see them yet.
Speaker 3: I see I see them back in the control room.
Speaker 3: We need to see them.
Speaker 2: All right, Fly him up, all right? So this is
Speaker 2: this is what the interesting, all right, So here we go.
Speaker 2: I'll go ten to one here. Dalton Kincaid not in
Speaker 2: my top ten. Came in at number ten. Evan Ingram
Speaker 2: of the Jaguars, number nine, Dallas Goddard, number eight, David
Speaker 2: Njoku my guy, number seven, t J. Hockinson, number six,
Speaker 2: Trey McBride. Oh it's number five. This is what I'm
Speaker 2: talking about. This are all these young guys new on
Speaker 2: the scene. Number four, Sam Laporta of the Lions, number three,
Speaker 2: Mark Andrews of the Ravens, number two, George Kittle of
Speaker 2: the Niners, and of course number one, Travis.
Speaker 1: Kelsey of the Chiefs. All right, let's start at John.
Speaker 2: Do you have when we look at our combined list here,
Speaker 2: do you have a name that kind of does not
Speaker 2: jibe overall that you've had somebody higher or lower.
Speaker 1: Let's start that way.
Speaker 9: I don't have any big gripes with this list. Honestly,
Speaker 9: it's not too far off from mine. The only player
Speaker 9: in this ten that I didn't have in mind was
Speaker 9: Evan Ingram, and he was eleven for me, just outside,
Speaker 9: so very strongly consider him. I also kind of split
Speaker 9: mine up into tiers a little bit, so when you
Speaker 9: get past the first six guys, to me, I think
Speaker 9: there's about six or seven guys after that that, I
Speaker 9: would say you could put them in any order, and
Speaker 9: I would understand your reasoning. Depending on the scheme that
Speaker 9: you're looking at to fit with a certain quarterback or
Speaker 9: coordinator offensive system, you could prioritize different things at that position,
Speaker 9: different skill set traits you value. So it really does
Speaker 9: become after I think the first six or so, I
Speaker 9: think it does become almost like a dealer's choice.
Speaker 1: I mean almost the whole list.
Speaker 3: I thought it was hard to decide who is sort
Speaker 3: of a top the tight end mountain right now, Let's
Speaker 3: start there, because our top three is Kelsey, Kittle, Andrews Kittle. First,
Speaker 3: I feel like Travis, I mean, George Kittle was the
Speaker 3: best tight end in the league last year. I think
Speaker 3: I'm always going to lean a little bit to a
Speaker 3: guy who's that dynamic as a blocker. He hasn't stayed
Speaker 3: as healthy and explosive as you would want, but he's
Speaker 3: still much younger than Travis Kelce, and he was healthy
Speaker 3: and mostly explosive last year. So I'm guessing the two
Speaker 3: of you both had Kelsey number one. I almost I
Speaker 3: think I had a Kelsey a few spots lower because
Speaker 3: I was thinking about this year, and I expect that
Speaker 3: decline to come. And then as I did the process
Speaker 3: and went into him, where I was like, I can't
Speaker 3: doubt this guy. It's ridiculous to put him any lower
Speaker 3: than two. At least I had Kelsey at number one.
Speaker 3: But I could see why you went down that road.
Speaker 2: With Kelsey wasn't quite as good as he was the
Speaker 2: previous season, where I think he was heading shoulders the
Speaker 2: best tight end in the league. And Kittle, if you
Speaker 2: look at some of the advanced numbers at PFF, i'll
Speaker 2: cite them. First of all, he was their highest graded
Speaker 2: tight end by quite a margin over Travis Kelcey, who
Speaker 2: was second.
Speaker 1: And then he had some really numbers.
Speaker 2: He Kittle had twenty nine games of fifteen plus yards,
Speaker 2: which is tied for first among all tight ends. He
Speaker 2: led all tight ends in deep receiving yards. He averaged
Speaker 2: ten yards depth per target, seven point three yards per
Speaker 2: after the catch game two hundred and seventy nine yards
Speaker 2: after contact John And of course everyone knows Kittle is
Speaker 2: the complete tight end and is a boss as a
Speaker 2: blocker as well. So for a guy that sometimes can
Speaker 2: get overlooked in certain conversations, he had a great season,
Speaker 2: playing five hundred and sixty eight snaps.
Speaker 9: I thought the first three guys, which you've mentioned, two
Speaker 9: of them, Kelsey and Kittle, and then for me it
Speaker 9: was Sam Laporto was the third and we'll talk about him,
Speaker 9: and those three were in a tier together for me
Speaker 9: at the top. And the reason why it was difficult
Speaker 9: to rank him and I did rank Travis kelce first,
Speaker 9: as you mentioned, Greg, was that the playoffs. Honestly, that
Speaker 9: was the big part of it. I don't think in
Speaker 9: the regular season that Travis Kelcey was as transcendent as
Speaker 9: he normally is. I think he was fine, He was
Speaker 9: very good, But I don't think you were like, Wow,
Speaker 9: this guy is just on a historic pace still at
Speaker 9: his age, all this kind of stuff, and then he
Speaker 9: goes into the postseason thirty two catches on thirty eight targets,
Speaker 9: three hundred and fifty five yards, three touchdowns, and four
Speaker 9: playoff games. To me, just the stage that he was in,
Speaker 9: the spotlight that was on him, considering the fact that
Speaker 9: they didn't have a lot of other weaponry like that,
Speaker 9: to me took it to another level when you consider
Speaker 9: like the role he played in actually winning a championship
Speaker 9: this past year. Now we're projecting ahead, and you're right, Greg,
Speaker 9: at some point that is good. That decline is going
Speaker 9: to continue to come for Kelsey and perhaps that was
Speaker 9: his last hurra and it goes downhill from here. But
Speaker 9: with Kittle, who I think is the most complete tight
Speaker 9: end in the NFL and probably the one if we
Speaker 9: were just saying I'm starting a neutral team and I
Speaker 9: want to pick a guy for this season, like just
Speaker 9: to be on that team, and the situation is just
Speaker 9: we don't know yet all question marks at quarterback play
Speaker 9: car he'd probably be the guy you pick because he
Speaker 9: can pretty much do anything, and also you get the
Speaker 9: splash play on and he's probably the best downfield tight
Speaker 9: end in the league. All of that combined makes him
Speaker 9: very enticing target to pick, even in be number one.
Speaker 9: But I just kept coming back to, Okay, Kelsey has
Speaker 9: hardly missed any games since entire career, and Kittles has
Speaker 9: had more nagging degrees that he's dealt with and worked through,
Speaker 9: and perhaps that all changes this year, but that gave
Speaker 9: Kelsey a slight edge to me, but very close between
Speaker 9: those two guys, and even Laporta being in that mix.
Speaker 9: For me, I had a hard time sputting up those guys,
Speaker 9: thinking about twenty twenty four as the kind of the
Speaker 9: barometer by which we're saying we want these guys on.
Speaker 3: Our teap This's why it's good to have three of
Speaker 3: us combined on these because now you've kind of tuked
Speaker 3: you guys, have tucked me into it, giving anyone else
Speaker 3: the top of the mountain other than Travis Kelcey and
Speaker 3: giving it to a guy who, in Kittle, now thinking
Speaker 3: about it, had a total of four catches in those
Speaker 3: last two games. He wasn't a huge part of that
Speaker 3: offense with Kelsey had three times the production.
Speaker 1: You're right in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: So if you're trying to pick between the two, even
Speaker 3: though he's a little more dynamic Kittle, it's hard to
Speaker 3: go against that. The super Bowl was on yesterday and
Speaker 3: I kind of let Walker watch. It's like, I won't
Speaker 3: let you watch TV. Force Well, no, I'm not forcings.
Speaker 3: He's dying, but uh, you know, on the weekends, okay,
Speaker 3: you can watch some sports. You don't don't watch TV,
Speaker 3: but you canna have sports on. So he's watching the
Speaker 3: super Bowl, and yeah, you're reminded that. It's like it's
Speaker 3: Rashid Rice or Kelsey on all the big plays, which
Speaker 3: you know the situation there and now it reminds you
Speaker 3: how important Rice was to them. And otherwise it's like
Speaker 3: Richie James on clearout routes. And they won a Super
Speaker 3: Bowl that way, not like dominating the Oy. You kind
Speaker 3: of forget they didn't score the first twenty five minutes
Speaker 3: of that Super Bowl. They got it done. I do
Speaker 3: want to hear from you why you had Laporta that high.
Speaker 3: I still put Andrews ahead of him, but Laporta is
Speaker 3: better as a blocker than probably we would have expected
Speaker 3: as a rookie. And just his usage was incredible, Like
Speaker 3: how how they used him for him to step in
Speaker 3: and be that good that right away. I had him forced,
Speaker 3: so I wasn't too far off, but you had him
Speaker 3: a whole whole tier ahead.
Speaker 1: I'm curious why.
Speaker 9: For me, the biggest thing with the Porte is that
Speaker 9: I think to already be able to do I'd rather
Speaker 9: be early than late on a guy like that that's
Speaker 9: that good. I loves a puge him. Coming out of
Speaker 9: college too, he was my number two tight end behind
Speaker 9: Kim Kid in the class. I thought he was the
Speaker 9: real deal, and it was easily a top thirty player
Speaker 9: in the class. And the fact that he was able
Speaker 9: to go into that situation in Detroit where they obviously
Speaker 9: have a bunch of targets to earn the trust of
Speaker 9: the staff enough from camp you could tell right away
Speaker 9: they're like, Oh, not only are we going to play
Speaker 9: this guy, his role isn't going to be siloed. He's
Speaker 9: going to play in line forty seven percent of the time,
Speaker 9: twenty six percent of the time will play out wide
Speaker 9: for us. We'll match him up against corners and he
Speaker 9: will beat them off the line of scrimmage, and at
Speaker 9: the top of the route one v one he'll be
Speaker 9: in the slot twenty six percent of the time. Give
Speaker 9: him a two way go he can function a flot
Speaker 9: receiver for us. So just the fact that he can
Speaker 9: do everything at the position at his age with such
Speaker 9: limited experience, I mean, almost nine hundred yards and ten
Speaker 9: touchdowns last year in the regular season. I already think
Speaker 9: he's the best tight end in the league at the
Speaker 9: top of his route. When we just talk about who
Speaker 9: creates max separation at the top of the route with footwork, quickness,
Speaker 9: explosiveness out of the break to me that support. I
Speaker 9: think it was a big calling guard for him in
Speaker 9: college too. They literally took what he did at Iowa
Speaker 9: and they said, it's going to be an exact carbon Coffy.
Speaker 9: We we're gonna ask you to do in the NFL,
Speaker 9: only against way better competition. And he was able to
Speaker 9: do that as a rookie. I just think that's incredibly rare.
Speaker 9: I think he is a very special player. Also, fourteen
Speaker 9: of twenty two on contested gatch situations. Last time he
Speaker 9: forced thirteen miss tackles. So really where the weaknesses with
Speaker 9: the porters where I think I kind of like had
Speaker 9: a hard time ranking him lower than this.
Speaker 2: Him, Laporta and goff in play action was absolute death
Speaker 2: to defenses last year.
Speaker 1: I had him as four. I put Mark Andrews just ahead.
Speaker 2: And he's kind of a guy that maybe gets overlooked
Speaker 2: just because you know, he missed the end of the
Speaker 2: last season with an injury. He's been banged up at times.
Speaker 2: But a good data point here, Andrews generated the second
Speaker 2: highest passer rating when targeted among tight ends one thirty
Speaker 2: five point one when Lamar was targeting him last year
Speaker 2: before he went down.
Speaker 1: Here's a little good Ravens nug for you, GREGI all right,
Speaker 1: the only.
Speaker 2: Person that had a higher passer rating target was at
Speaker 2: one forty one point two isaaa likely of the Ravens,
Speaker 2: So that works.
Speaker 1: He's on my long list.
Speaker 3: We'll get to some of the guys that didn't make
Speaker 3: the ten, because I do think at least one name
Speaker 3: is very interesting to talk about, but likely when I
Speaker 3: made my long list out, he was like top fifteen.
Speaker 3: He's pretty dynamic. I do want to get to Trey
Speaker 3: mcbridebeing so high. I thought I was going to be
Speaker 3: the highest on him, but apparently we all were if
Speaker 3: he just about if he ended up fifth, he is
Speaker 3: one of those guys thinking about him versus Kyle Pitts
Speaker 3: who didn't make the list, And we can get to
Speaker 3: Kyle Pitts, but like if it's by the way he
Speaker 3: was eleven.
Speaker 1: On him, Oh really, he was just.
Speaker 3: He was just off of Mi okay, So that's how
Speaker 3: Kincaid slipped on there because I had Kakaid quite high.
Speaker 3: I think Kaid's movement is just crazy and he's set
Speaker 3: to have a big season, and part of his production
Speaker 3: last year being a little lower I think was just
Speaker 3: him getting used to the league, and by the end
Speaker 3: of the season you can see he is a special,
Speaker 3: special mover.
Speaker 1: I get why you had him t one in.
Speaker 3: A great class, but McBride, Like, if you just watched
Speaker 3: Trey McBride's tape from last season and you told me
Speaker 3: he was taken in the top twenty picks in the
Speaker 3: NFL draft, was like, I would believe that. Like, to me,
Speaker 3: he does everything he is. He is a special ball winner.
Speaker 3: He is good after the catch, like he's tough. There's
Speaker 3: kind of nothing I don't see. And he just kept
Speaker 3: backing it up week after week. And he started to
Speaker 3: show it a little bit late in his rookie year too,
Speaker 3: that like, I don't have that many more questions. To me,
Speaker 3: he's sort of at that level that now I expect
Speaker 3: him to be a Pro Bowl caliber player for the
Speaker 3: next some odd years.
Speaker 1: John die for me. Yeah, Okay, there we go. That's
Speaker 1: how it happened.
Speaker 9: Yes, I'm a huge I saw I had McBride forth.
Speaker 9: I'm a huge fan of McBride. I mean, so this
Speaker 9: was the most interesting stat one of the most interesting
Speaker 9: stats that I found, Uh, his yards per route run
Speaker 9: last year. He was first amongst all tight ends over
Speaker 9: two point over two yards per route run last year
Speaker 9: for McBride, and better than the better than Kelsey, better
Speaker 9: than all these guys here about how great their seasons were.
Speaker 9: And with McBride, I just kept coming back to man, like,
Speaker 9: what is the weakness was? I watched him and remember
Speaker 9: he had that rookie year that was so nondescript and
Speaker 9: everything was a mess. Obviously, then he did half this
Speaker 9: season without great quarterback play here and Kyler comes in
Speaker 9: and it gets a little bit better, I think. But
Speaker 9: I mean to be the ball winning that you talked
Speaker 9: about is a really valuable thing at this position. I
Speaker 9: think tight ends are often working the middle of the
Speaker 9: field down seams. Windows on them are usually closing pretty
Speaker 9: quickly with guys working top down on them, and so
Speaker 9: to be able to make catches with your back to
Speaker 9: defenders I think is really important. You often have somebody
Speaker 9: crowding your space as you're making catches at this position.
Speaker 9: So love that forced twelve miss tackles. He's not like
Speaker 9: super elusive in space or anything like that, but just
Speaker 9: the fact that he's so tough. He's just very physical player,
Speaker 9: you know, And I watched him, I said, power forward
Speaker 9: type of player. He doesn't have this elite on ground
Speaker 9: athleticism kind of but when you watch him, you just
Speaker 9: think power forward and everything that he does. He bulldozes people,
Speaker 9: He knocks people back his physicality at the top of
Speaker 9: the route, you know where Laporta kind of sinks and
Speaker 9: cuts and accelerates and is so smooth, and you can
Speaker 9: see the athleticism. McBride just like knocks guys out of
Speaker 9: his path and subtle though he doesn't mean nobody gets
Speaker 9: called for OPI consistently in the NFL, but he's just
Speaker 9: a very physical player. You were not going to set
Speaker 9: the tone on him. Good blocker as well. He can
Speaker 9: do a lot of different stuff too. I think that's
Speaker 9: what it being going to be one of the more
Speaker 9: valuable things when we talk about this position. How many
Speaker 9: guys can do a lot of different stuff. McBride can
Speaker 9: block in line, he can block on the move, which
Speaker 9: he does frequently for them, and on the perimeter as well.
Speaker 9: A great stock blocker, and so they trust him a lot,
Speaker 9: I think, and that's a big thing with him and
Speaker 9: Laporta to be really young and to be trusted as
Speaker 9: much as they are to do as many different things
Speaker 9: as they are is just not very common in today's NFL,
Speaker 9: so that's why I have them both so high up
Speaker 9: the list.
Speaker 3: He also was had like thirty straight minutes of him
Speaker 3: during a in season hard Knocks. I believe it was
Speaker 3: or all or nothing. I don't even remember at this
Speaker 3: point that literally no one on earth watched other than
Speaker 3: me a solid thirty minute chunk in one episode. And
Speaker 3: I think I'm just like glad that that. I feel like,
Speaker 3: now that paid off for me.
Speaker 2: That's good, that's important, and I'm glad it enriched you
Speaker 2: in your analysis. Can we talk a little Davin Joku,
Speaker 2: because your guy, he's my guy. I always believed in him,
Speaker 2: and it was a little bit of a slow train
Speaker 2: to get where it needed to be. But I really
Speaker 2: thought it happened last year, especially when Flacco got involved.
Speaker 2: He set career highs in targets, catches, touchdowns, He led
Speaker 2: all tight ends, john in mistackles, forced also in explosive gains.
Speaker 2: This was a guy who was absolute terror. I could
Speaker 2: I could just picture it. It happened against my team,
Speaker 2: the Jets, but happened against a lot of teams this
Speaker 2: year where in Joku all of a sudden streaking over
Speaker 2: the middle like a rampaging Mustang.
Speaker 1: It's hard to bring down.
Speaker 2: I think he could even be better if he ever
Speaker 2: gets truly consistent quarterback.
Speaker 1: Play your thoughts on njuco in Djoko in Juko.
Speaker 9: For me, he was seventh, uh he but I am
Speaker 9: a huge fan of his game. He was my number
Speaker 9: one tight end in the draft when he came out
Speaker 9: that you remember that was oj Howard m and Ingram.
Speaker 9: There was a lot of guys in that class and
Speaker 9: for him, like, the biggest thing I thought when I
Speaker 9: watched him was that just the post catchability, which honestly
Speaker 9: we've kind of seen a little bit of over the
Speaker 9: course of his career, but this was the first year
Speaker 9: where it felt like it really all came together for him. Man.
Speaker 9: I mean, just you speak about intangibles, and I think
Speaker 9: that batters a ton like let's I mean, and Djoku
Speaker 9: has those right. One of the toughest dudes in the league.
Speaker 9: Physical Uh, he's selfless. His teammates love him. Remember when
Speaker 9: we thought.
Speaker 3: The freaking face burned off and he was playing the
Speaker 3: next week, John, Yeah, dude, it's.
Speaker 9: Fas like it just one of those dudes that he
Speaker 9: will talk to talk and walk the walk. And I
Speaker 9: remember when early in his career we were like, maybe
Speaker 9: they'll trade him, like it doesn't seem like it's working
Speaker 9: out there, and they were like, no chance, we're trading
Speaker 9: this guy, like we know it's going to come around,
Speaker 9: and he's still only twenty seven. I think that's just
Speaker 9: an insane part of all.
Speaker 2: This when you could try safeties with no eyelashes, like
Speaker 2: that's that's different, Like you're built different.
Speaker 1: Let's let's put the list back up there.
Speaker 3: Eric, You're right, some of these guys are sneaky young,
Speaker 3: like in Joko you just mentioned. I couldn't believe TJ. Hockinson,
Speaker 3: who I think comes in at number six. Let's see
Speaker 3: the list, Eric, He's still just twenty six years old.
Speaker 3: It feels like TJ. Hockinson's been in the league forever.
Speaker 3: He's coming off a tourney ACL.
Speaker 2: That's such a bummer because he was he had had
Speaker 2: a perfect place in that offense and hopefully he's able
Speaker 2: to come back as the same TJ.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and John made a good he asked me, and
Speaker 3: this is why you know he's a pro. He's like,
Speaker 3: if we're talking about yea, John, take it for twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four. He's like, are we holding it against Hockinson
Speaker 3: that he's coming off with torn acl because he might
Speaker 3: not be even ready for the start, As I say,
Speaker 3: a personal don't don't hold it against him, so that
Speaker 3: I put him where right in the middle. Goddard's been
Speaker 3: kind of slumping lately, and then looking at Ingram.
Speaker 1: You missed my top ten by the way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just didn't look like the same guy, and
Speaker 3: you do worry about the miles that he's put on him.
Speaker 3: But if we had done this exercise last year, would
Speaker 3: have been in my top four. So I had a
Speaker 3: hard time putting a much lower. I think I had
Speaker 3: him eight or nine. I'm guessing John, you had him
Speaker 3: somewhere in that ballpark because Dan five.
Speaker 9: Actually I thought ahead of Andrews. This is probably my
Speaker 9: most controversial ranking.
Speaker 3: I guess it's well there, No, that's where he was
Speaker 3: for me initially, and then I just kept sliding him down,
Speaker 3: thinking like, he just didn't quite look like the same
Speaker 3: guy a year ago.
Speaker 1: But tell me if I'm wrong, Well, both.
Speaker 9: These guys have that. The Goddard and Andrews conversation is
Speaker 9: both like are they who they were last year? Or
Speaker 9: are they who they've been in the past. I think
Speaker 9: is the conversation with both of them moving forward. I
Speaker 9: believe in Goddard maybe a little bit more because it
Speaker 9: goes back to how much does your team trust you,
Speaker 9: how much does your team, how many different things does
Speaker 9: your team ask of you? How important you are? Are
Speaker 9: you to your team's success? And I think you saw
Speaker 9: it a lot right that Eagles offense really struggled when
Speaker 9: God wasn't in there. And it's not so much about like, oh,
Speaker 9: he wasn't around to literally catch the football and produce
Speaker 9: like in that way. It's because of how much he
Speaker 9: gives that offense and what he's able to do as
Speaker 9: a player, just in part of being a big part
Speaker 9: of their RPO game game as a blocker, what they
Speaker 9: do with him on the move as a blocker, A
Speaker 9: very hard player to find a fact simile for. He's
Speaker 9: a second best blocker on this list, I think other
Speaker 9: than Carol and Joki's playing that conversation too. So he's used,
Speaker 9: He's formed himself into an all around player. I really
Speaker 9: don't love Field, not that the way Philly uses him
Speaker 9: is bad. I think they use him in ways that
Speaker 9: are helpful to their offense, but not as helpful to
Speaker 9: Dallas Goddard as they could, whereas Andrews is like the
Speaker 9: feature piece I think in Baltimore. To me with Goddard,
Speaker 9: the A dot is just plummeting, like can we get
Speaker 9: him targets down the field?
Speaker 1: Can we?
Speaker 9: I mean, he has done this stuff in his career.
Speaker 9: We know he can be this player. I think a
Speaker 9: big reason for what if Philly is going to go
Speaker 9: back up on offense, if they are going to climb
Speaker 9: the rankings again and truly be one of the most
Speaker 9: feared offense in the NFL again, I think they have
Speaker 9: to expand their usage of Goddard again. It's it just
Speaker 9: became so narrow of a usage for him, and I
Speaker 9: think he's just capable a lot more so. I did
Speaker 9: have him five and Andrews six. That was a very
Speaker 9: close one. They're in the same tier for me. Andrews
Speaker 9: I think is still very good. What is great about
Speaker 9: his game I think last year, even when he played,
Speaker 9: he was eighty percent of the time in the slot,
Speaker 9: So he's kind of like he's become like a big
Speaker 9: slot receiver, which he's always spent a good amount of
Speaker 9: time in there, But is he much of an inline
Speaker 9: guy at all anymore? His A dot was just way
Speaker 9: down last year in that offense, and so does that
Speaker 9: system know how to use him?
Speaker 1: As well?
Speaker 9: As another question with him, I think he had some
Speaker 9: ugly drops. It wasn't his best season as a blocker.
Speaker 9: He's never been the biggest playmaker with the ball in
Speaker 9: his hands. But I think everything about his game is
Speaker 9: still like pretty good, I think. And he's only twenty
Speaker 9: seven to two, which is crazy. So who bounces back
Speaker 9: out of those two is probably going to determine which
Speaker 9: ones in the top five next year when we do.
Speaker 1: This, right, you think the Eagles going back to God.
Speaker 3: It is such a great situation for him, But you
Speaker 3: said it right, And actually Jalen Hurts might not be
Speaker 3: like the best quarterback for him because Jalen Hurts his
Speaker 3: best attribute is on the outside, Like he's just not
Speaker 3: as consistent working in the middle of the field. He's
Speaker 3: great at, you know, throwing the go balls, and they
Speaker 3: build the offense around that. So maybe that hasn't helped
Speaker 3: him vice versa like the flip side of that. As
Speaker 3: Everitingram had one hundred forty three targets last year. I
Speaker 3: was like, I can't believe that I'm glad Evan ingraand
Speaker 3: find found the role that like he deserves to have
Speaker 3: because I always thought he had something to him and
Speaker 3: the Jaggars have gotten that out of him.
Speaker 1: Before we move on to by the.
Speaker 2: Way, check out the splits too, because Ingram was very
Speaker 2: quiet in the first half. Even he's getting targeted, he was.
Speaker 2: He was a really good player for them and productive.
Speaker 1: He's great after the back.
Speaker 3: He's great at what they what he does, which is
Speaker 3: just those those drag routes and everything.
Speaker 1: Is Kyle Pitts. Are we sure he's good?
Speaker 3: I guess I'm the only person that didn't put him
Speaker 3: in the top ten. He's He's someone i've actually I
Speaker 3: have watched a lot of them, and I just don't
Speaker 3: think he moves the same way as we that he
Speaker 3: did coming out of college or even his rookie year.
Speaker 3: And and I know the quarterbacks have been bad and
Speaker 3: that's a big part of it, but I look at
Speaker 3: Drake London and I think, Okay, Drake London's really underrated.
Speaker 3: If he was in a different situation, he'd be like
Speaker 3: a top ten wide receiver. And I don't know watching
Speaker 3: week after week, I don't I don't know if I've
Speaker 3: seen that totally out of Pits. There's always a lot
Speaker 3: of miscommunications with Pitts, which is tough to know, Like
Speaker 3: is that his fault to the quarterbacks? But when it's
Speaker 3: happening so much, you kind of think it's him. So
Speaker 3: he was my number eleven player. I was like, these
Speaker 3: other guys have have been a little more consistent, and
Speaker 3: I don't totally see like the special athleticism anymore than
Speaker 3: I have expected, because probably because he's playing through injuries.
Speaker 1: What do you think, John, Yeah.
Speaker 9: I had inn Djoku seven, Hawkinson eight, Kincaid nine, and
Speaker 9: then Pitts ten. And you're completely right about bets, Like,
Speaker 9: he wasn't a better player than Evan Ingram last year,
Speaker 9: So you could put Jake Ferguson over him, you could
Speaker 9: put him further down the list.
Speaker 3: For me, Friarmuth is in that mix guys that didn't
Speaker 3: make Yeah Shultz.
Speaker 9: I mean there were a lot of guys that were
Speaker 9: better than him last year. I just think about his age,
Speaker 9: I think about the offense he was in, and I
Speaker 9: just wasn't a big fan of a lot of the
Speaker 9: usage for him and I think he basically just has
Speaker 9: to be like this field stretcher, Well, what else can
Speaker 9: he do for your team? Like I think he can
Speaker 9: do more things for your team. All that is. All
Speaker 9: that said, there's no doubt Cowpits, and I don't think
Speaker 9: we talked about this enough. Cow Pits has not played
Speaker 9: well enough in the NFL. Frankly, Like, there's no question
Speaker 9: about it, Like when it comes to route running, when
Speaker 9: it comes to mental mistakes, when it comes to making
Speaker 9: tough catches. Look at his contestant goat trades and then
Speaker 9: watch the tape and you'll see a lot of those
Speaker 9: concerns show ups So this is very much of twenty
Speaker 9: twenty four. Who am I taking? Like, if I need somebody,
Speaker 9: I still want to bet on the upside around this range,
Speaker 9: just because I think the upside is a little more
Speaker 9: limited as you get further down the list. But there's
Speaker 9: no doubt that this is This is a critical year
Speaker 9: for cow Pits, obviously for payment long term all of
Speaker 9: those kind of things. He goes into a pivotal fourth season,
Speaker 9: but this is it for him. I mean, he's got
Speaker 9: to put it all together. There's still unbelievable traits here
Speaker 9: We've seen the flashes. Yeah, a thousand yards of a
Speaker 9: rogie like this guy is capable of it, it just
Speaker 9: hasn't happened consistently.
Speaker 3: We were in London for one of the high moments
Speaker 3: of his career. He lit up the Jets that game.
Speaker 3: Yeah they went like seven or something.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, he's got one thousand yard season on his
Speaker 2: resume and maybe some of those miscommunications. He's had a
Speaker 2: lot of quarterbacks, a lot of bad quarterbacks. I think
Speaker 2: this is a perfect setup for him. He might only
Speaker 2: get Kirk Cousins for one year because of their absurd
Speaker 2: roster strategy, but give me a consistent quarterback that puts
Speaker 2: it on the numbers. How many times you see Kyle Pitts,
Speaker 2: you know, jackknifing trying to reach behind his body and
Speaker 2: throws over his career so far, I'm really excited by
Speaker 2: his upside. And we're gonna take a break and then
Speaker 2: quickly talk a little more historical in the last fifteen.
Speaker 1: Years or so.
Speaker 2: But I want to let everyone know that I put
Speaker 2: Taysom Hill at number nine and whoa, that doesn't count
Speaker 2: because he's not a real tight end. But if you
Speaker 2: give me three hundred receiving yards and four hundred rushing
Speaker 2: yards and six touchdowns, and you could throw a nice spiral,
Speaker 2: you could find the back ten, back half of the
Speaker 2: back ten of me.
Speaker 1: For me, that's every time that is bold.
Speaker 3: I gotta say last year was the year that I
Speaker 3: did start thinking, Okay, Taysom Hill actually is underrated. He
Speaker 3: actually was very helpful to their winning and was making
Speaker 3: pretty consistent plays. We got you tasting top ten is
Speaker 3: a little rich for me, but I got you Saints
Speaker 3: fans pretty unique.
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a break and we'll be right back.
Speaker 2: All right, we are back just for fun. This is
Speaker 2: Greg's idea of fun. And I was like, yeah, let's
Speaker 2: go for a ride. Let's go through the mind of
Speaker 2: Greg and with John along for the ride. He said,
Speaker 2: you know what's even more from the talking tight ends,
Speaker 2: Let's crank back the clock and let's talk about our
Speaker 2: favorite and the best tight end since twenty ten, which
Speaker 2: is somewhat arbitrary. I thought it was a little like
Speaker 2: he just wants to talk about Gronk and and I
Speaker 2: thought to myself, I here's my logic, here's what let
Speaker 2: me just say number So I know that a big
Speaker 2: part of this conversation for Greg now is so he
Speaker 2: could say Gronk's better than Travis Kelce.
Speaker 1: So here's what I did. I.
Speaker 2: Even if I don't totally believe it, put Travis Kelce
Speaker 2: one over Gronk. And my hope, my hope is that John,
Speaker 2: who we don't know each other prior to this conversation,
Speaker 2: He's probably gonna put Cronk number one. But if he doesn't,
Speaker 2: if he put Travis Kelce number one, that's two to one.
Speaker 2: It's Kelsey beats Gronk, and the entire idea of the
Speaker 2: exercise turns and collapses in on itself on GREGGI in
Speaker 2: a big spot.
Speaker 1: So, without further ado, the it also means I'm not
Speaker 1: allowing anyone else to vote.
Speaker 2: Next time the top ten tight end since twenty ten.
Speaker 2: Come on, Travis number one. Give it to me, Give
Speaker 2: me what I need because we need it to.
Speaker 1: Stick it to Gregy in a big spot. It sounds
Speaker 1: like you already know the end. I don't know. Let's
Speaker 1: see it. Oh yes, Kelsey, Oh big time, what a win.
Speaker 1: Oh that's why I get up in the morning. That's
Speaker 1: why I love this job. We big focused on his
Speaker 1: arms up in the air, too.
Speaker 3: This is preposterous, all right. Here always have for like
Speaker 3: wins and losses. What is it that Jim Harbos said
Speaker 3: at the top.
Speaker 2: Of The Urracious Loser, It's happened, and now you got today.
Speaker 1: It's today? What was it?
Speaker 2: Number number ten, Mark Andrews number nine, Vernon Davis number eight,
Speaker 2: Zach Ertz number seven, Antonio Gates number six. Greg Olsen, Yes,
Speaker 2: that Greg Olsen. It was a quite a fine tight
Speaker 2: end before his feet turned on him. Jimmy Graham at
Speaker 2: number five, Jason Whitne at number four, George Kittle at
Speaker 2: number three, Rob Gronkowski Gronk himself number two, and Kelsey
Speaker 2: the Great Travis Kelsey comes in at number one. Let
Speaker 2: us Greg before you can, because you deserve the opportunity,
Speaker 2: because now that this segment is imploded on itself in
Speaker 2: a big spot for you, I'm gonna give you the floor.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna move out of the way, But first I
Speaker 2: want to hear yes, iris.
Speaker 1: John, your opinions? Why John said Travis over Rob? Go ahead, John, Yeah.
Speaker 9: Greg's probably regretting having me on the show. I apologized, Greg.
Speaker 9: I had to do this, so this actually hurt me too,
Speaker 9: because I covered Gronk in Tampa Bay for a couple
Speaker 9: of years and just an absolute joy if as a
Speaker 9: player as everything to be able to cover. And honestly,
Speaker 9: if you this is obviously a great conversation or probably
Speaker 9: discourse that'll happen for years. These guys are obviously in
Speaker 9: the same tier. There's no wrong ranking here in my opinion.
Speaker 9: Oh Greg might disagree. But the big thing for me,
Speaker 9: I think is when you look at games played, there's
Speaker 9: an edge with Kelsey. I think even though he is
Speaker 9: still he's still has when you look at the starts
Speaker 9: of their career, Kelsey didn't even really play his first year,
Speaker 9: I think, so you go back to that a little.
Speaker 1: He's like a season he's a season up.
Speaker 3: Just to put the stats out, he basically has sixteen
Speaker 3: games up on Gronk now going in.
Speaker 2: And Gronk started at age twenty one. Kelsey's career didn't
Speaker 2: really start to lage twenty five, which is interesting.
Speaker 9: Right, and I think Kelsey's still adding to that. Plus
Speaker 9: just really always being healthy is a big part of
Speaker 9: this ranking. Now if you ask, it's kind of like
Speaker 9: the Kittle Kelsey debate. Honestly in a little ways, like
Speaker 9: if you're just saying I'm starting both these guys at
Speaker 9: the beginning of the career. I'm starting a neutral franchise.
Speaker 9: Who do I want to build my offense around. I
Speaker 9: think there's definitely a real strong argument for Gronkowski because
Speaker 9: of how good he was as a blocker. You could
Speaker 9: play Gronk and you could do this with Kelsey two
Speaker 9: to a degree. You could play him as an ax
Speaker 9: like by himself. You could put him on the back
Speaker 9: side of three by one on the single receiver side,
Speaker 9: and he was like in his heyday, he was like
Speaker 9: cash money basically.
Speaker 3: That And that's the reason why let him think they
Speaker 3: beat the Chiefs in that game was exactly that reason
Speaker 3: that they could do that.
Speaker 1: Greg, You're gonna get your check.
Speaker 9: I've just never really seen anybody win the way Kelsey win,
Speaker 9: Like I've never seen him. He isn't even a great
Speaker 9: athlete anymore. And he's open all the time. How like,
Speaker 9: how is he he knows everything that's happening around him
Speaker 9: all the time. I obviously he has cart blanche to
Speaker 9: kind of do what he wants as a route runner,
Speaker 9: which is incredible to watch. But I just don't know
Speaker 9: how anybody who moves like the way he does is
Speaker 9: getting open to the degree that he is at his
Speaker 9: age and staying healthy all the time. It's just watching
Speaker 9: him is remarkable to me because I feel like, okay,
Speaker 9: like you should be able to knock him around, like
Speaker 9: he's not that fit. You should be able to like
Speaker 9: stay in his hip pocket. He can't think he's not
Speaker 9: that explosive. Like you look at his contested catch numbers
Speaker 9: and it's like he does a good job, but he's
Speaker 9: also hardly ever in contested catch situations, so you just
Speaker 9: like it doesn't make any sense. And then you watch
Speaker 9: him in every single game. He's open all the time,
Speaker 9: all over the field at all levels. When they needed
Speaker 9: him to be the vertical guy last year because they
Speaker 9: had absolutely nothing, he goes out and he makes plays
Speaker 9: down the field. I'm just like, I don't even understand
Speaker 9: the production is the counting numbers are a little bit
Speaker 9: on his side over like when you look at yards
Speaker 9: and things like that, But he's got the game's advantage
Speaker 9: there too a little bit since twenty ten. So it's
Speaker 9: a fascinating discussion. I've bounced around throughout my lifetime uncovering
Speaker 9: these guys and watching them play, but I think that
Speaker 9: there really is no wrong answer on it, but I
Speaker 9: just had to go with Kelsey because of a couple
Speaker 9: of those factors.
Speaker 3: I get it everything that you said is right on
Speaker 3: when it's talking about why Kelsey is so great, and
Speaker 3: he's he's kind of a genius in term of football,
Speaker 3: genius in terms of route running, and he gets to
Speaker 3: play with another one in Mahomes, and that's awesome, like
Speaker 3: you think about players that never got that chance, like
Speaker 3: the fact Randy Moss get to play with Tom Brady
Speaker 3: at that point in both of their careers. You got
Speaker 3: to see greatness elevate each other, and Kelsey has done that.
Speaker 3: And the argument to me is a little bit compiler
Speaker 3: versus peak. But I have to give it to Kelsey
Speaker 3: that his peaks now are all so pretty awesome. So
Speaker 3: it truly is an argument where two or three years
Speaker 3: ago I really didn't think it was an argument. The
Speaker 3: reason I feel strongly it's Gronk is I'm gonna take
Speaker 3: the guy who, if it's close enough, is better at
Speaker 3: their their respective peaks. They're both four time first team
Speaker 3: All Pro, so they've been literally the best tight in
Speaker 3: the league both four times. But there's two parts where
Speaker 3: Gronk is just clearly better. And that's explosive plays including
Speaker 3: touchdowns and blocking like those are two massive components of
Speaker 3: playing the tight end position. And it took me looking
Speaker 3: at this to remember Rob Gronkowski averaged like fifteen yards
Speaker 3: per catch for his career, like that is that is
Speaker 3: just outrageous. And he still has Kelsey by a good
Speaker 3: margin in terms of touchdowns, in terms of if you're
Speaker 3: just like playing like fantasy points, just like you know,
Speaker 3: just fantasy points, like he'd even have Kelsey per game
Speaker 3: over that, and that's because of all the touchdowns. So
Speaker 3: when I think, like, what makes a tight end special,
Speaker 3: like scoring explosive plays, and I do think the explosive
Speaker 3: plays gets a little lost in the grond conversation to
Speaker 3: average fifteen yards per catch the tight end, you're I'm
Speaker 3: looking at all these lists and I sorted it on
Speaker 3: Pro Football Reference. I mean, there's no other tight end
Speaker 3: that's even remotely in the ballpark. Everyone's two yards per
Speaker 3: catch like behind Gronk. And then you add the touchdowns,
Speaker 3: and then most importantly, I think you add the blocking.
Speaker 3: Where at his peak and he kept it going pretty
Speaker 3: well to the end of his career, they could just
Speaker 3: do so many things because of the way he blocked.
Speaker 3: Not only did he do a great job blocking, but
Speaker 3: they just could call plays in such a different way
Speaker 3: that that was almost impossible to defend. And that was
Speaker 3: because of Gronk. And I think he does have that
Speaker 3: in a way that that's better than Kelsey at his peak.
Speaker 3: But I'm not going to kill you for going Kelsey
Speaker 3: at this point. I think it's an argument he's not
Speaker 3: a good one.
Speaker 2: But here's yeah, here's here. Here it is to me, like,
Speaker 2: can't you can't say anything negative about Gronk? Maybe his
Speaker 2: durability and there's a reason why he kind of left
Speaker 2: the game in twenty nineteen because he got so beat
Speaker 2: up over the years he came into the league with
Speaker 2: the back surgery. Obviously it led to the Patriots I think,
Speaker 2: being able to get him in the first place where
Speaker 2: they did, whereas Kelsey has been just an iron man
Speaker 2: for that team and the things that's more like what
Speaker 2: do I what kind of excites me a little bit
Speaker 2: more as a football fan. Kelsey's cerebral nature is so
Speaker 2: incredible and John, I'll point to two instances in the
Speaker 2: last couple of years. One is one of the plays
Speaker 2: many plays that Kadarius Tony ruined for the team last year,
Speaker 2: that long play against the Bills where he catches the
Speaker 2: pass and then in stride throws a perfect ball across
Speaker 2: the field to complete an unlikely touchdown that you know
Speaker 2: would have swung that game, and he gets called back
Speaker 2: as Tony lined up off sides, and.
Speaker 1: Everyone was like, can you believe that Travis Kelcey would
Speaker 1: do that?
Speaker 2: And then after the game, everybody's like, no, Kelsey does
Speaker 2: that stuff all the time in practic Like he just
Speaker 2: sees the field in a way that other people don't,
Speaker 2: and then he has this incredible ability to make plays
Speaker 2: because he's just so naturally athletically gifted. The other play
Speaker 2: all point two is the thirteen seconds game the Divisional
Speaker 2: round playoffs, also obviously against the Bills, and on that
Speaker 2: amazing sequence where they were able to tie the game.
Speaker 2: It's Kelsey who kind of calls out or sets up
Speaker 2: the play on the first Tyreek Hill game and then
Speaker 2: says to Mahomes, all this happening in real time, Hey,
Speaker 2: if they stay in that same defense, look for me
Speaker 2: because I'm going to have a seam. And sure enough,
Speaker 2: he gets hit for the huge pass games, so he
Speaker 2: kind of set up both those plays and allowed them
Speaker 2: to escape and win that game.
Speaker 1: So those are just two examples.
Speaker 2: And while I'm not going to get on Gronk because
Speaker 2: everybody knows Gronk's not a rocket scientist, although I know
Speaker 2: he leans into the gronkness of it all, just Kelsey,
Speaker 2: I think, separates himself with his ability to be like
Speaker 2: his brother it did on the offensive line physically gifted
Speaker 2: but also mentally superstar.
Speaker 9: Well, it's also absolutely crazy that just when you talk,
Speaker 9: we'll look at the production for both these two guys.
Speaker 9: There's so many things to just be like jaw on
Speaker 9: the floor about. But Kelsey has since twenty ten, almost
Speaker 9: almost three hundred more catches than Ron Gronkowski now, and
Speaker 9: Gronkowski still has eighteen more touchdowns than him, which speaks
Speaker 9: to Green's point. Also speaks to the fact that Andy
Speaker 9: Reid is just this savant near the goal line, and
Speaker 9: obviously everybody like Anthony Sherman's and those types of players
Speaker 9: are getting touchdowns that Kelsey probably would get if he
Speaker 9: was featured as much as Gronk down there. But I yeah,
Speaker 9: speaks to just like the production that Gronk had as
Speaker 9: a red zone guy and as a big play guy,
Speaker 9: if he just never had all the injury concerns that
Speaker 9: he had, and now he's over two thousand yards bying
Speaker 9: Kelsey as well since twenty ten. Like the numbers in
Speaker 9: the production we would have seen from this guy would
Speaker 9: have just been off the charts. And it's just such
Speaker 9: a bummer that he ended up, hey, you know, retiring
Speaker 9: and this and that year and then we have plenty.
Speaker 3: I feel like, well, maybe maybe I'm speaking out of turn,
Speaker 3: but I feel like it could have gone different ways.
Speaker 3: We could have seen less of Gronk. I mean the
Speaker 3: fact that you got five or six great seasons. You
Speaker 3: think about the last two times he played Travis Kelcey.
Speaker 3: You know, not for nothing that AFC Championship game. They
Speaker 3: win it in part by putting Gronk out to the
Speaker 3: left and on the game winning drive he makes big plays.
Speaker 3: Kelsey has a quiet game, and then he scores a
Speaker 3: couple of touchdowns in the Super Bowl with the Buccaneers
Speaker 3: at the very end. So he still did get kind
Speaker 3: of a nice little Gronk spike at the end of
Speaker 3: his career. Even if even if you guys are going
Speaker 3: to put him first. Should we just zoom through the
Speaker 3: rest of the list at least I would say, like
Speaker 3: Jimmy put that back up. Yeah, Jimmy Graham had like four,
Speaker 3: he ends up five on this list. I had him
Speaker 3: three because he just for the four for four or
Speaker 3: five years. He just had absolute monster years. He was
Speaker 3: a first team All Pro, like during Gronk's prime a
Speaker 3: couple times, and it fell off fairly quickly. But we
Speaker 3: have Kittle third. No problem with that, in who to
Speaker 3: me was a little bit of a compiler, I don't think.
Speaker 2: I think that's not fair though, because he was what
Speaker 2: you dream of in a tight end a guy, a
Speaker 2: great safety, valve slash, moved the chain guy in a
Speaker 2: big third down. He did so much for them and
Speaker 2: had some huge years as well in terms of straight.
Speaker 3: Production, and got a couple first team All pros too.
Speaker 3: And then I was happy to see greg Al sitting
Speaker 3: on this list. I sorted by a couple of different measures,
Speaker 3: but on Pro Football Reference they have something called approximate value,
Speaker 3: which it's not perfect, but it's trying to be there
Speaker 3: be all end all, I just wanted an initial list.
Speaker 3: They had him fourth since twenty ten behind Kelsey Gronk
Speaker 3: and Jimmy Graham. And that just shows the kind of production.
Speaker 3: And he was a very John intelligent player too.
Speaker 1: John.
Speaker 2: I killed Antonio Gates's ranking here because I left him
Speaker 2: off only because his last kind of big time year
Speaker 2: was twenty ten and then he hung around and had
Speaker 2: the issues obviously health down the line. But if he's
Speaker 2: still finished seventh, you must have had him high up
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 9: I had him, Yeah, what did I have him?
Speaker 1: Sixth?
Speaker 9: I think was on my list I had I actually
Speaker 9: had Graham lower. I had Graham eighth, and so I'll
Speaker 9: contribute to I contributed to him being probably five. It
Speaker 9: seems like you would have been hired for you guys. Actually,
Speaker 9: my most controversy, I had Kittle third as well. I
Speaker 9: had Greg Olsen fourth, and wit in fo wow Gate sixth,
Speaker 9: Arch seventh, and I had Graham eighth and Vernon Davis
Speaker 9: ninth and then tenth. I was like Mark Andrews. Jared Cook.
Speaker 9: I don't know, like it's.
Speaker 1: Jared Cook made the list. Dang Jared Cook. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: you know his production is there though, on all these
Speaker 1: lists of yards.
Speaker 3: When I sorted in approximate value, he's top seven or eight,
Speaker 3: and you're like, dang, Jared Cook's had a nice career.
Speaker 9: I sent the list that I refused to just put
Speaker 9: Jared Cook because we ever think of him as a
Speaker 9: top ten tight end in the last fifteen years.
Speaker 1: But he just.
Speaker 2: Underhead one of the best catches you'll ever see from
Speaker 2: a tight end in a playoff game against Dallas with
Speaker 2: the Packers. I just threw Darren Waller at number ten,
Speaker 2: and I know that he has not been able to
Speaker 2: keep it up and sustain it, but when he did
Speaker 2: lock into that zone, he was as impossible to cover
Speaker 2: as anyone. So I game a little love. I don't
Speaker 2: even know if his career is contending with at this point,
Speaker 2: but little pop for day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it felt like there was like nine solid apparently
Speaker 3: for all of us, because I actually had Vernon Davis tenth.
Speaker 3: I split nine and ten with Vernon Davis's old teammate
Speaker 3: on the Super Bowl reaching twenty twelve forty nine or seen.
Speaker 3: I gave Delane and Walker a little love and old
Speaker 3: West fail almost three Pro Bowls, a great blocker, great
Speaker 3: at his very peak, and so he's snuck in at ten.
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm glad you mentioned Gates.
Speaker 3: That is the last thing I want to say, because
Speaker 3: he didn't make the Hall of Fame last year, and
Speaker 3: I was just like, what he'll get there.
Speaker 1: I know who got there, and you gotta wait.
Speaker 3: It's like Devin Hester and Patt I love Patrick Willis,
Speaker 3: but like if you had said in the middle of
Speaker 3: their primes, like who's a better player? And Antonio Gates
Speaker 3: was so good And this exercise was interesting because this
Speaker 3: was the second half of his career where he just
Speaker 3: kind of cruised as terrific, where he did the compiling
Speaker 3: that you often need for Hall of Fames and he
Speaker 3: was still making a lot of Pro bowls and he's
Speaker 3: six hundred to eight hundred yards, but the first five
Speaker 3: he has that Jimmy Graham and Gronk type peak too
Speaker 3: before that, and then he cruised along, So to me,
Speaker 3: it was crazy. He's even even waiting a year and
Speaker 3: it's just an awesome all time great.
Speaker 9: All right, all those guys are pretty I mean, I
Speaker 9: think after the top three that are I think going
Speaker 9: to be pretty consensus. All those guys really are kind
Speaker 9: of a pretty similar clump up until you get probably
Speaker 9: to the Vernon Davis range and Wherever's it nine or
Speaker 9: ten for you. But I just thought Olsen is kind
Speaker 9: of one of the forgotten. Yes, he had three one
Speaker 9: thousand yard seasons in a row, and if he had
Speaker 9: not had the foot injuries, when you just talk about
Speaker 9: peak of your power stuff, he was just Remember they
Speaker 9: didn't have a ton of other guys in Carolina and
Speaker 9: they said super Bowl. He was the guy like talk
Speaker 9: about cerebral leadership, consistency across the board until those injuries.
Speaker 1: Some hands like just great everything, great rats, I mean
Speaker 1: really friendly.
Speaker 2: When who ran him and ran into him in Vegas
Speaker 2: and he was feeling no pain at all in the casino.
Speaker 3: I mean, he's very nice guy. He's doing it right,
Speaker 3: he's living well. He's had a great life.
Speaker 2: Like if you I try to make the case to
Speaker 2: Andrew Marshawn that Greg Olsen was really the you know,
Speaker 2: the big loser of the offseason in terms of the
Speaker 2: Tom Brady of it all in the broadcasting booth.
Speaker 1: But no, Greg Olsen is doing great.
Speaker 9: Greg Golsen, he's the JJ Reddick of the I think
Speaker 9: he's on that trajectory right, great player who's kind of
Speaker 9: forgotten about a little bit, goes great analysts now it's a.
Speaker 3: Good although Reddick actually got head coaching interview and might
Speaker 3: get more.
Speaker 1: Olson Olsen has poked his head around there. He tried to,
Speaker 1: He tried to.
Speaker 3: There was some like you know, source report that Greg
Speaker 3: Olsen would be open if you would want to talk
Speaker 3: to him, but they never did.
Speaker 1: All right, John, You've said it all.
Speaker 2: Follow John on Twitter at Ledyard NFL Draft, Like I said,
Speaker 2: the Audibles and Analytics pod, and he's a busy man,
Speaker 2: So just keep an eye on him because he's doing
Speaker 2: all sorts of great coverage of ball.
Speaker 1: Thank you, buddy for joining Strong Jaw to appreciate it.
Speaker 9: John, Hey, my jawsband comped to Bill Cower at times.
Speaker 2: Very nice John Ledyard everywhere, John, we'll be right back
Speaker 2: to closing size.
Speaker 1: All right, we are back close some things up. Nice
Speaker 1: conversation there with John Ledyard. Good addition, I.
Speaker 3: Love that stuff. I don't know where I saw. I
Speaker 3: think it was a book I read. It was just
Speaker 3: like men, or maybe it was a tweet Like all
Speaker 3: men like to do is just like rank thing ranks,
Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, let's rank.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that. I mean, who better than us
Speaker 1: to do it? We've been doing this show we've been following.
Speaker 2: Who's Got a Better of Us? Yes again, Mark Sessler
Speaker 2: not with us today, but Mark will be back on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: so tune in for that. Also Wednesday is the schedule
Speaker 2: release show, so we will be breaking down all the
Speaker 2: interesting tidbits that are coming out of that. And before
Speaker 2: we say goodbye, we were just talking tight ends and
Speaker 2: all the fun ranking of it, all that men like
Speaker 2: to do. There's some heat between one of the great
Speaker 2: tight ends of all time. He retired before he would
Speaker 2: be part of this conversation.
Speaker 1: We just had.
Speaker 2: But Shannon Sharp, who was most recently seen kicking the
Speaker 2: hell out of us in a podcast award show, right,
Speaker 2: they flew him down there.
Speaker 1: That's what we knew.
Speaker 3: We were done, well I knew, and they not only that,
Speaker 3: they had their own roped off section that we were
Speaker 3: that I tried to get it.
Speaker 1: Oh that was rough. As soon as we got to Austin, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this was all a trap.
Speaker 2: But Shannon Sharp is one of the great tight ends
Speaker 2: of the nineties into the two thousands. But he came
Speaker 2: after a Shaquille O'Neill, the NBA legend. You know what
Speaker 2: if shack you know, really tried hard, and Shack didn't
Speaker 2: take too kindly to that.
Speaker 1: Let's check out this. This I just thought was awesome because.
Speaker 2: Shack cited gil Brandt's NFL dot Com write ups multiple times. Okay,
Speaker 2: so Shack cited gil ranking Sean Sharp eleventh all time,
Speaker 2: tight ends gilbrand who rest in peace, left us a
Speaker 2: year ago, former Cowboys general manager. And I just like that, Shaks,
Speaker 2: post's gotta be top ten in your profession before you
Speaker 2: speak on someone in there in their profession tough, they're
Speaker 2: they're their break for Shaq in a big spot there.
Speaker 2: But Shacks pointing to gil Brandt putting Shannon Sharp number
Speaker 2: eleven as the bible and the be all end all
Speaker 2: of rankings, I just got to kick.
Speaker 3: Not only that it's an old school NFL dot Com
Speaker 3: photo gallery. I can't believe Sharp didn't make the.
Speaker 1: Top Labenberg special. But then I look at.
Speaker 3: Who is in it, for instance, and you can't you
Speaker 3: can't really fault gil gil Wait, actually I do fault
Speaker 3: some things. He's got Jason Witten fourth and Gronk like
Speaker 3: two spots, but you know what's going to give Jason
Speaker 3: Witten a little extra pop. But either way, I love
Speaker 3: this rap beef that I never knew anything.
Speaker 9: I know.
Speaker 2: This is the this is the new Drake and Lamar
Speaker 2: pull up the Instagram feed one again because there's I
Speaker 2: love coded messaging that It's.
Speaker 1: Like, what's going on? Does everybody know about about this
Speaker 1: but us?
Speaker 2: But at one point Shack and his long die drop
Speaker 2: against Shannon Sharp over nonsense rights.
Speaker 1: Don't forget I know what you did to get where
Speaker 1: you were at. Oh hell yeah, what's that all about? Whoa?
Speaker 1: What's that all about? Whoa? Whoa? Oie? Oh I need
Speaker 1: more on that.
Speaker 3: I do like that, Shack said, Google me four rings seven,
Speaker 3: Top seventy five, NBA PA.
Speaker 2: He calls himself. You think I have too many nicknames?
Speaker 2: He calls him he hashtags at the end, Apex Predator.
Speaker 2: Young Shaq was the most dominant athlete I've ever seen
Speaker 2: in my life. We took a growing up in you know,
Speaker 2: right on the border of northern New Jersey. We couldn't
Speaker 2: get into the garden to see the Knicks because they
Speaker 2: were very popular and successful at the time, but you
Speaker 2: could always get to a Nets game down at the Metalands.
Speaker 2: So there was like a clash trip to go see
Speaker 2: Shack when he was a rookie at the me We
Speaker 2: took the bus down. My dad was one of the chaperones,
Speaker 2: and we just saw Shack just thrash a NETS team
Speaker 2: that was like looking at each other like, how is
Speaker 2: this grown man on the court and we are but
Speaker 2: little boys. So maybe Shannon needs to remember that he
Speaker 2: was a specimen Shack and his numbers stack up pretty
Speaker 2: well with the all time greats.
Speaker 1: Football is completely different than basketball.
Speaker 2: All Right, we'll be back Wednesday. Great job behind the glass.
Speaker 2: Tag team effort.
Speaker 1: Kind of tag. What tag team would they been? Demolition?
Speaker 3: I think the Legion of Doom Doom aush
Speaker 7: He the gall