1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The defining issue of our time. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: The great problem that allowed a demagogue like Donald Trump 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: to rise is the complete and total collapse of trust 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: between the American people and institutions of government, of civil society, 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: of nonprofits, religious institutions, corporations. Everywhere you look, powerful interests, 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: powerful people have broken trust. When trust collapses, when it 7 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: is incineric, it gives rise to demagogues, people who believe 8 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: that they can say anything, that if they speak fast enough, 9 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: if they speak loudly enough, if they talk over someone 10 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: persistently enough, that they will be able to lie with precision. 11 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: You can think about it at an individual level, beloved 12 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: entertainers like Bill Cosby disgraced. You can think about it 13 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: at a presidential level. Donald Trump, who lied to the 14 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: American people thirty five thousand times. The Catholic Church, the 15 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: Boy Scouts, en Ron, the mortgage crisis, the list goes 16 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: on and on and on. Everywhere the American people look, 17 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: they see malfeasans. What they see is a rig system, 18 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: one set of rules for people at the top, and 19 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: a different set of rules for everybody else. And remember 20 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: always the everybody else includes forty percent of the American 21 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: population that does not have four hundred dollars cash available 22 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: for an emergency, and sixty percent of the population that 23 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: lives paycheck to paycheck. When trust collapses completely, what it 24 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: produces is a field where demagogues can rise. And of 25 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: course that's what Donald Trump is and was, always has been, 26 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: and always will be. What Trump has spawned is a 27 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: new generation of demagogues, demagogues like vvak Ramaswami. The interview 28 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 2: that Mehdi Hassan did on MSNBC Peacock with vvk Ramaswami 29 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: is a masterclass in how journalists should interview their subjects. 30 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: Mehdi Hassan is in a league of his own among 31 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: American journalists. There's no reason that there can't be twenty 32 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 2: five people on American television doing what Mehdi Hassan did. 33 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: Watch vvk Ramaswami's reaction to being held to account, to 34 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 2: being confronted by reality. What he does is a bad 35 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 2: Trump imitation. He blusters, he lies, he bullshits, but he's 36 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: not feeling very good at it and he's not very convincing. 37 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: Let's watch him talk over medi Hassan. Let's watch him interrupt, 38 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 2: Let's watch him try to evade his reality and hit 39 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: his record. 40 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: It is remarkable. 41 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 3: You say he behaved in downright abhorrent behavior that makes 42 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 3: him a danger to democ. 43 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 4: Let's tell me what let's actually be Let's actually be 44 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 4: really fair to your audience. So on January tenth, twenty 45 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 4: twenty one thereabouts, days after that incident, I wrote an 46 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 4: outbed on the Wall Street Journal arguing that censorship was 47 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 4: the real cause of what happened. On January sixth, when 48 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: asked in response, somebody asked me the question, are you 49 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 4: that that's that's well, that's what I wrote. I'm giving 50 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 4: you the facts of. 51 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: What I said. 52 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 4: That's a harsh fact that was published in the Wall 53 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 4: Street Journal. When pressed on was that condoning what Trump did? 54 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 4: My answer was no, there's a difference between a bad judgment. 55 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: And understood, and we were able to tell the difference 56 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: that Trump do your view, that was downright abhorrent. Second time, I. 57 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 4: Think that the thing that I would have done differently 58 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 4: if I were in his shoes, declared reelection on January seven, 59 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 4: that's exactly the thing I would Trump do. 60 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: That was egregious, quote, downright abhorrent and a danger to democracy. 61 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 3: Can you just explain to our view is your words. 62 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 4: So so you're you're mixing two differentquoess. But what did 63 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 4: I think was reprehensible about what happened that day? 64 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:33,119 Speaker 1: Look? 65 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 4: I think that the way a true leader should have 66 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 4: handled that situation should have been to actually say, this 67 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 4: is me running for re election, not actually litigating what 68 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 4: is already passed in behind us. And I would have 69 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 4: done things differently. That is not a crime, though, understand. 70 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 4: And the reason I have been so vehmic you would 71 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 4: have done because this is from your mouth. 72 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: No, No, I would feel scared of him. Why wouldn't 73 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: you say I'm horrible. 74 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 4: I'm not going to let you stitch ditching together three 75 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 4: things with different places. 76 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: Do you want that Trump didn't want to have a conversation. Yes, 77 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 3: I want you to answer my question. Trump, it was 78 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: downright abhorrent. It's a simple question. It's your words, it's 79 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 3: on screen. I think what did he do that was 80 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: downright horrent? 81 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,239 Speaker 4: I believe that failing to unite this country falls short 82 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 4: of what a true leader ought to do. That is 83 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 4: why I'm in this race, is to do things differently 84 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 4: than any prior president has done them. That's the hard truth, Okay, 85 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: And that's what the media and well, the reality is 86 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 4: none of that is a crime. And the reason I 87 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 4: have been so vocal, the reason I have been so vocal, 88 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 4: is because when somebody actually prosecutes somebody for a bad judgment, 89 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 4: and I've been cleared, I understand the judgment. They get 90 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 4: their judgments. 91 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 2: It's easy to look at Vivek Ramaswami and dismiss him 92 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: as a very rich googball. But he's dangerous. Why is 93 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: he dangerous? He's dangerous because of the message, his message, 94 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 2: his placards. And I'm in the state of New Hampshire 95 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: as we speak. They're all over the place, and what 96 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: they say on them is truth. When someone comes to 97 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: you running for president of the United States with a 98 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: banner that says truth above them, and they lie, and 99 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: they lie, and they lie some more, and when they 100 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: get caught in the lie, they double down and they 101 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: lie again, and then they lie and lie some more, 102 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: and double down and lie some more. That person, at 103 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: a moral level is unfit for public trust. And the 104 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: unfitness of an accumulation of enough people has brought America 105 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 2: to the edge of the greatest crisis it has faced 106 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: since the American Civil War, when the Union was merely 107 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: divided and the country nearly ended. The American system, American society, 108 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: and the American way of life is built around elections, 109 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: a radical concept that we get to choose, and when 110 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: we pick our leaders, we give them power, limited power, 111 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: constrained by the Constitution, and they have no right whatsoever 112 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: to interfere in our rights. These rights are threatened by 113 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: dishonest demagogues who disregard the outcomes of elections. The lying 114 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: is a feature of every authoritarian movement there has ever been, 115 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: and everywhere in the world where people live burdened by 116 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: a government that can impose its will on them, they 117 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: live in. 118 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: A culture of lies. 119 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: And that culture of lies is dangerous because it is 120 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: a cancer on a democracy. At the moment it becomes 121 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: impossible to distinguish what is real and what is not, 122 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: what is bullshit and what is not. Democracy is imperiled 123 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: when you cannot distinguish between the lie and the truth. 124 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: Because they stand equally in the town square, society stands 125 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 2: on the edge of the abyss. This is important and 126 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: fundamental to understand. This is the role the journalists should 127 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: play in a society, and it is the role that 128 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: journalists largely have abandoned during the Trump era. They've abandoned 129 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: it to go into business with Donald Trump in a 130 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: vast Trump industrial complex. We're outraged, and clicks and anger 131 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: sell and get more cliques and more anger and more rage, 132 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 2: and on and on it goes. What's the antidote to it? 133 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: The antidote is. 134 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: The transparency that comes from. 135 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: Reality, being able to confront the lie in real time, 136 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: in playview, masterfully done and constructed the way that Mehdi 137 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: Hassan did it. That is how democracy is protected by journalism, 138 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: not by batal slogans like on the masthead of the 139 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: Washington Post that declare democracy dies in darkness, when in 140 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: fact it's dying in the plane light of day. Over 141 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: seven years in this country and in the full view 142 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: of every editor and every politician in the United States, 143 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: Mehdi Hassan is in a league of his own because 144 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: no one else seems to play out the interviews, setting 145 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 2: up one question after another, leading their subjects into a 146 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: box canyon where they get to expose for all of 147 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: us to see their character. That's what Mehdi Hassan did 148 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: with VVK Ramaswami, and he did a great service to 149 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: the country because he exposed the young demagogue who wants 150 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: to strip the right to vote for millions of Americans 151 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: between eighteen and twenty five years old. Vvek Ramaswami is 152 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: a professional bullshitter and obviously he's done very well for 153 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: himself with that. But let's be clear about something. Vvk 154 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: Ramaswami is a liar. He can't be trusted, certainly not 155 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: with your family's future. He doesn't care. 156 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: About it at all. What he cares about his attention, 157 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: fame and more money. You know how you know that? 158 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: Watch Mehdi Hassan's interview. 159 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: Fevak Ramaswami told you all you ever need to know 160 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: about him. Another Republican magic candidate, completely unfit to ever 161 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: serve the American people in any public capacity that requires trust.