WEBVTT - Brené Brown on Our Flawed, Imperfect Selves 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.876 Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers, I've got a special guest for 0:00:32.956 --> 0:00:36.756 you this week, Brenee Brown. You may have heard Brene's 0:00:36.796 --> 0:00:40.476 ted talk, The Power of Vulnerability. It's been viewed more 0:00:40.516 --> 0:00:44.956 than sixty four million times. She's a social science professor 0:00:45.036 --> 0:00:47.836 at the University of Houston and is best known for 0:00:47.876 --> 0:00:52.916 her research on complex emotions like shame and vulnerability. She's 0:00:52.996 --> 0:00:55.556 also the best selling author of books like Braving the 0:00:55.556 --> 0:00:59.156 Wilderness and Atlas of the Heart. A few years ago, 0:00:59.356 --> 0:01:01.516 I was a guest on her podcast, Dare to Lead. 0:01:02.076 --> 0:01:04.756 We talked about cultivating courage and the face of change 0:01:04.916 --> 0:01:08.476 and how change can affect our identities. And so today 0:01:08.636 --> 0:01:11.716 I wanted to continue that conversation and talk a bit 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:15.356 more about identity, how we can find ourselves picking up 0:01:15.516 --> 0:01:17.956 and holding on to different ones over the course of 0:01:17.996 --> 0:01:21.836 our lives. Brenee and I discussed a few identities that 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:28.116 she holds particularly close. Recovering, perfectionist, reluctant public figure, partner 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:31.876 to her husband, and parent to two kids. We began 0:01:31.916 --> 0:01:36.316 our conversation talking about one of her earliest identities, big sister. 0:01:37.156 --> 0:01:39.836 She says her role as big sister really started to 0:01:39.876 --> 0:01:41.996 take shape when she was around eight years old. 0:01:42.876 --> 0:01:48.756 In my family, there was a very fine line between 0:01:49.196 --> 0:01:50.996 older sister and co parent. 0:01:51.436 --> 0:01:52.916 I think those. 0:01:54.196 --> 0:02:01.716 Identities grew together in an inextricably connected way, for better 0:02:01.756 --> 0:02:08.436 and worse. My parents, like many of our parents, really 0:02:08.476 --> 0:02:12.116 had no idea what they were doing, and they were 0:02:12.116 --> 0:02:14.236 doing the best they could. They both came from a 0:02:14.236 --> 0:02:20.716 ton of trauma, and so very early on, my job 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:25.836 was to maintain as much stability as possible in a 0:02:25.916 --> 0:02:27.396 very tumultuous household. 0:02:29.196 --> 0:02:31.476 In the context of young Brune, did that look like 0:02:32.596 --> 0:02:34.356 emotional support? 0:02:34.956 --> 0:02:38.156 It's a tough question. I think that identity of. 0:02:39.796 --> 0:02:45.756 Older sister, co parent protector grew in harmony with another 0:02:45.876 --> 0:02:50.516 identity that's really profoundly still who I am, which is patternfinder. 0:02:51.116 --> 0:02:57.516 I could understand very quickly what comment between my parents 0:02:57.676 --> 0:02:59.836 or someone else that was maybe at the house. 0:03:00.156 --> 0:03:02.676 Would unwind in a way that. 0:03:02.636 --> 0:03:08.476 Would make things tenuous and possibly dangerous. I think I 0:03:08.516 --> 0:03:13.756 was always kind of of running around sorting things, calming 0:03:13.796 --> 0:03:19.676 things down, intervening, making sure everything was as okay as 0:03:19.716 --> 0:03:21.876 it could be, to prevent some kind of blow up. 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:25.476 I love this idea of patternfinder. I think in so 0:03:25.516 --> 0:03:28.716 many ways we're kindred spirits in that way. I mean, oh, 0:03:28.756 --> 0:03:30.956 I don't know. Yeah, Like, even though I was the 0:03:30.996 --> 0:03:35.876 youngest of four, I was so emotionally attuned to dynamics 0:03:35.876 --> 0:03:40.956 and was trying to like implicitly or explicitly negotiate things, 0:03:40.996 --> 0:03:44.156 and it was almost impossible for me to ever turn 0:03:44.236 --> 0:03:45.116 that switch. 0:03:44.876 --> 0:03:48.116 Off one hundred percent. I actually. 0:03:49.316 --> 0:03:52.156 Have spent probably twenty years of my life trying to 0:03:52.156 --> 0:03:56.676 do work to turn that off. I am I am 0:03:56.756 --> 0:04:05.596 always assessing, and I very quickly can see how behavior, emotion, 0:04:05.876 --> 0:04:09.716 and cognition are connected in people. I mean my family 0:04:09.716 --> 0:04:13.596 growing up, if someone made a joke, everyone would laugh 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:16.996 and I would just kind of like uh. And I 0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:19.196 could see if the exact same joke was made but 0:04:19.236 --> 0:04:24.716 the context was different, there is potentially going to be 0:04:24.756 --> 0:04:28.276 a screaming match or potential violence just based on the 0:04:28.316 --> 0:04:32.316 context of it happening. And it explains a lot about me, 0:04:32.836 --> 0:04:39.836 which is I was not fun. I was the protector 0:04:40.236 --> 0:04:46.556 or the protector in waiting. It's kind of like that 0:04:46.596 --> 0:04:49.076 movie where the where the kids like I see dead people. 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:51.756 Yeah, yeah, sixth sense yeah yeah, y yeah. 0:04:51.796 --> 0:04:53.996 It's kind of like I see when shit's getting ready 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:57.556 to go down. Yeah, absolutely, And I don't intervene anymore. 0:04:57.596 --> 0:05:00.436 But I also, you know, want to high tail it 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:02.036 out of there and take the people I love with me. 0:05:02.916 --> 0:05:07.196 How do you see your relationship as protector patterns secret 0:05:07.236 --> 0:05:09.996 big sister having evolved over time? So, now that you're 0:05:10.636 --> 0:05:14.916 in adulthood and you're outside of the immediately threatening environment, 0:05:14.996 --> 0:05:18.796 let's say, a family life, how has that role changed 0:05:19.436 --> 0:05:21.876 for you, if at all. I mean, it still might 0:05:21.916 --> 0:05:24.196 have those same tones. I'm just curious. 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:29.316 I think when you come from kind of an eggshell environment, 0:05:30.716 --> 0:05:33.556 there's a hyper vigilance around what's going to cause the 0:05:33.636 --> 0:05:37.876 response that's dangerous, either verbally, emotionally, or maybe even physically. 0:05:38.596 --> 0:05:40.596 I have done and am doing a lot of personal 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:43.756 work around it, and continue to do it. I think 0:05:43.836 --> 0:05:47.276 my sisters and I call each other out on it. 0:05:47.876 --> 0:05:50.316 One of my sisters will say, hey, hey, hey, we 0:05:50.396 --> 0:05:52.316 know how to handle we're grown up too now, and 0:05:52.556 --> 0:05:53.996 we also think we can do some of this way 0:05:53.996 --> 0:05:57.076 better than you can do it, So back off, call 0:05:57.116 --> 0:05:58.956 your therapist, sit down, you know. 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:01.236 And so I'm like, Okay, yeah, that's great because I can't. 0:06:01.316 --> 0:06:06.036 Yeah yeah, yeah, what a wonderful evolution. I'd love to 0:06:06.076 --> 0:06:08.956 hop to the next identity lily pad if you will, 0:06:09.196 --> 0:06:12.916 and talk about perfectionism. So yet another one that we 0:06:12.996 --> 0:06:16.636 share in common, Vernee, where do you think the roots 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:20.196 of your perfectionism emerged? So let's take genes off the table. 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:21.996 So let's say you know, we both have a genetic 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:25.636 predisposition towards this, but environmentally, what do you think might 0:06:25.676 --> 0:06:26.676 have led to that? 0:06:27.516 --> 0:06:33.436 I from an early age, as the oldest, as the protector, 0:06:34.636 --> 0:06:40.196 I saw and experienced a link between my loveability and 0:06:40.276 --> 0:06:46.716 how good I was, and I needed to be morally 0:06:47.956 --> 0:06:55.676 ethically performatively, you know, like in every dimension good equated 0:06:55.716 --> 0:06:56.436 to love ability. 0:06:56.956 --> 0:06:59.116 And was this love from your parents or just in 0:06:59.116 --> 0:07:00.956 general from all the adults in your life? 0:07:01.756 --> 0:07:03.516 I think it was from all the adults. I think 0:07:03.556 --> 0:07:07.636 there was this collection of moments that just continue to 0:07:07.676 --> 0:07:11.116 provide data piece after data piece after data piece, you know, 0:07:11.276 --> 0:07:25.076 like dependability, sacrifice, manners, grades, a million pieces of data 0:07:25.276 --> 0:07:36.276 that reinforce this idea that good is lovable and not 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:38.596 good is not lovable. 0:07:40.276 --> 0:07:43.636 Is there a time you remember where you actively wished 0:07:44.156 --> 0:07:46.956 you were not a perfectionist, where you felt it's sabotaging 0:07:47.876 --> 0:07:49.596 some aspect of your life. 0:07:49.876 --> 0:07:51.476 I guess one of the things that's dawning on me 0:07:51.516 --> 0:07:55.236 as we're having this conversation right now, is the idea 0:07:55.236 --> 0:08:00.916 of perfectionism being what will other people think? I am 0:08:01.116 --> 0:08:05.476 not as vulnerable to that as I used to be. 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:13.116 Where I am still vulnerable is when people say you're 0:08:13.116 --> 0:08:17.236 not a good person. That I have to work on 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:21.716 that to not be crippling. So when I do something 0:08:21.716 --> 0:08:24.196 that people disagree with, or I have a position that 0:08:24.236 --> 0:08:27.796 people disagree with and they attribute that to what they 0:08:27.796 --> 0:08:31.956 think they know about me, that can be really, really 0:08:32.076 --> 0:08:32.756 painful for me. 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:38.596 And how do you engage with that pain? What's your response? 0:08:39.756 --> 0:08:42.716 Because surely it's not just changing your position, right, you 0:08:42.796 --> 0:08:46.436 have a set of values, and so I wonder when 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:51.396 you run up against that tension, but appeasing that audience 0:08:51.836 --> 0:08:53.676 by changing your point of view isn't on the table. 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:54.276 What do you do? 0:08:57.276 --> 0:09:00.076 I try to always keep curiosity in learning on the table. 0:09:00.716 --> 0:09:02.996 I try to extend the same generosity to other people 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:06.196 that I'd want extended to me. I try to take 0:09:06.236 --> 0:09:09.796 in what's learnable and then what's mean spirited or hateful. 0:09:10.116 --> 0:09:11.036 But I think. 0:09:12.516 --> 0:09:14.636 I don't know how to do it really well. To 0:09:14.636 --> 0:09:16.716 be honest with you, I don't have a solution there. 0:09:16.836 --> 0:09:20.476 No, and I'm with you girl. So yeah, there was 0:09:20.556 --> 0:09:25.396 an experience that I had at work where because of 0:09:25.436 --> 0:09:29.676 a misunderstanding, I felt like a colleague of mine thought 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:32.676 I wasn't a good person and she wouldn't engage with 0:09:32.716 --> 0:09:35.396 me on the topic. So I never had the opportunity 0:09:35.956 --> 0:09:39.956 to conflict resolve. And this was one of the most 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:43.116 maddening experiences for me because I am not prideful. I 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:45.316 will come to every table admit where I went wrong 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:47.276 or what my weaknesses are. But the fact she wasn't 0:09:47.276 --> 0:09:51.236 willing to engage brene put me into this frantic state 0:09:51.276 --> 0:09:53.676 of panic, like I will never get resolution here. I 0:09:53.716 --> 0:09:56.356 will never be able to prove to this person that 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:58.556 I'm actually good and I didn't mean any harm. And 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:00.316 I don't know what it is she even is upset 0:10:00.316 --> 0:10:02.596 with me about. And the only thing I had in 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:05.676 that moment to work with was my own brain, because 0:10:05.676 --> 0:10:08.436 I had no ability to communicate with her. So I 0:10:08.436 --> 0:10:11.356 had to find a way to change my own perception, 0:10:11.596 --> 0:10:15.796 and so I visualized what it meant for her to 0:10:15.836 --> 0:10:18.196 maybe think that I was a bad person, And in 0:10:18.276 --> 0:10:22.396 my head, the visual was there are these electrical signals 0:10:22.396 --> 0:10:27.716 in her brain that occasionally occur where these neurons fire 0:10:27.756 --> 0:10:31.716 and say I don't like Maya, okay, and it's fleeting, 0:10:31.756 --> 0:10:33.636 and like, I'm not a narcisst I know it's having 0:10:33.716 --> 0:10:38.556 very infrequently, but all it is is just this transient 0:10:38.756 --> 0:10:43.556 electrical signal, and we pump so much air into this 0:10:43.636 --> 0:10:45.836 feeling of what other people think of us as this 0:10:46.196 --> 0:10:50.716 massive concept, and for some reason, that visual took the 0:10:50.756 --> 0:10:53.836 air out of it. It like deflated that balloon. It 0:10:53.876 --> 0:10:56.316 took the power away from her. I was like, Okay, 0:10:56.996 --> 0:10:59.356 so I'm going to walk around this world and there's 0:10:59.396 --> 0:11:03.676 going to be humans who have that neural activity that 0:11:03.716 --> 0:11:05.396 I don't agree with Maya. I don't like Maya. I 0:11:05.436 --> 0:11:08.876 think Maya's XYZ. And maybe that's a world that I 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:11.956 can comfortably live in and be happy in and find 0:11:11.996 --> 0:11:15.076 peace in anyway. I don't know if that's helpful, but 0:11:15.116 --> 0:11:18.436 it's just it's taken some of the emotional punch out 0:11:18.476 --> 0:11:20.836 of this feeling of someone not liking you or not 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:21.476 approving of you. 0:11:22.636 --> 0:11:28.116 God, I'm like mesmerized, I'm hanging on every word. I 0:11:28.196 --> 0:11:32.636 just think it's so right sizing that it's a fleeting 0:11:32.676 --> 0:11:35.836 thought in the mind of a single person that we 0:11:35.876 --> 0:11:36.996 have no control over. 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:40.356 I mean, it makes so much sense to me. 0:11:40.956 --> 0:11:47.076 And the disproportionate amount of energy we spend compared to 0:11:47.196 --> 0:11:50.716 the fleeting littles exactly mine. 0:11:52.276 --> 0:11:54.236 You would have thought I was getting my PhD in 0:11:54.276 --> 0:11:56.556 this woman during that period of time, I was like 0:11:56.996 --> 0:11:59.036 ninety percent of my brain power was like how do 0:11:59.116 --> 0:12:00.436 I get her to not be mad at me? And 0:12:00.476 --> 0:12:02.516 I don't even know why she's mad? You know, I 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:06.676 put so much mental labor into trying to solve this 0:12:06.756 --> 0:12:09.916 problem that was unsolvable. Yeah, I meanside though, by the 0:12:09.956 --> 0:12:11.996 way it just takes on this point, as you might think, well, 0:12:12.036 --> 0:12:14.916 then every positive thought people have about me is transient too. 0:12:15.276 --> 0:12:17.476 But I actually think it's good to think of the 0:12:17.516 --> 0:12:21.036 positive stuff as transient as well. I mean, because otherwise 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:23.556 you can over index on that, you can attach so 0:12:23.676 --> 0:12:26.556 much value and self worth to that and then suddenly 0:12:26.596 --> 0:12:27.956 collapses and you don't know what to do. 0:12:28.876 --> 0:12:34.276 I absolutely and the positive vilance is much more scary 0:12:34.316 --> 0:12:38.036 for me than the negative personally. To be honest with you, 0:12:38.076 --> 0:12:39.956 I don't like that party there very much. 0:12:40.476 --> 0:12:43.956 Yeah, SayMore. I'm so curious, especially as because you're such 0:12:43.956 --> 0:12:46.036 a public figure and so I'm so curious to know 0:12:46.036 --> 0:12:46.876 how that intersects. 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.556 Yeah, I'll go back to Braving the Wilderness. When I 0:12:50.676 --> 0:12:55.956 wrote that book, i shared my support for Black Lives 0:12:56.036 --> 0:12:58.716 Matter and why I thought it was a really important 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:03.076 movement that we should be paying attention to. And it 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:09.156 was the first time I experienced people walking out of 0:13:10.236 --> 0:13:15.756 event centers and places during my book tour talks specifically 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:18.356 around that issue, like getting up in the middle of 0:13:18.356 --> 0:13:23.476 like what I'm talking, people said they felt personally betrayed 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:28.396 by me and disappointed in me because my work had 0:13:28.396 --> 0:13:33.116 meant so much to them and overcoming hard things the 0:13:33.116 --> 0:13:36.196 death of a child or you know, their own eating disorder, 0:13:36.276 --> 0:13:40.156 their divorce, or you know, just like really hard things, 0:13:40.196 --> 0:13:41.916 And then how could I betray them by having an 0:13:41.956 --> 0:13:45.476 opinion a political belief that was so far from their own. 0:13:47.196 --> 0:13:53.676 And what I realized in that moment is that's a 0:13:53.716 --> 0:13:58.276 result of people projecting on me who they need me 0:13:58.396 --> 0:14:01.436 to be. Does that make sense to you at all? 0:14:01.876 --> 0:14:06.876 Yeah, that's that is so interesting because basically, they they 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:10.876 found your work meaningful, therapy, resonant. It's helped them during 0:14:10.916 --> 0:14:15.116 a hard time, and obviously they have some fraction of 0:14:15.116 --> 0:14:17.836 an understanding of who you are. Right, they're consuming a 0:14:17.876 --> 0:14:20.756 book you've written, and what you're saying is they're essentially 0:14:20.836 --> 0:14:22.916 filling in all the gaps in their knowledge of who 0:14:22.916 --> 0:14:26.356 you are with an idealized version of you that meets 0:14:26.436 --> 0:14:27.556 their criteria. 0:14:27.916 --> 0:14:29.796 I remember the first time I became aware of it. 0:14:30.396 --> 0:14:34.956 Oh, I was telling a story and I was like, oh, 0:14:34.956 --> 0:14:36.956 I was so mad. I was flipping this driver off 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:38.996 underneath that, you know, underneath the steering wall where they 0:14:39.036 --> 0:14:43.116 couldn't see me. And someone said, you really actually don't 0:14:43.156 --> 0:14:46.476 sound very wholehearted at all. 0:14:46.556 --> 0:14:47.596 And I was like what. 0:14:48.156 --> 0:14:50.556 And they're like, I thought you were all about wholeheartedness, 0:14:50.676 --> 0:14:56.916 and I was like, I think I'm about deep, flawed, messy, lovable, 0:14:56.916 --> 0:15:02.036 amazing humanity like I, you know, And so I'm not 0:15:02.236 --> 0:15:11.676 going to be a good avatar for you. 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:12.956 Looking for a messy, complicated, deeply flawed person. 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:13.436 Right. 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:20.156 More of my conversation with Brene after the break. We'll 0:15:20.196 --> 0:15:22.596 be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 0:15:34.516 --> 0:15:37.516 One identity Brene Brown has had for a long time 0:15:37.996 --> 0:15:41.956 is partner to her husband Steve. They've been together for decades. 0:15:42.676 --> 0:15:45.236 I wanted to know more about how this identity has 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:49.596 evolved over time because I'm a hopeless romantic and I 0:15:49.636 --> 0:15:53.796 also watch crappy TV like The Bachelor. Just indulge me 0:15:53.836 --> 0:15:55.996 for indulgent for a moment. 0:15:56.676 --> 0:15:57.676 This I love about you. 0:15:57.756 --> 0:15:59.596 I mean, there's so many things to love about you, 0:15:59.636 --> 0:16:00.716 but this is one of my favorites. 0:16:00.756 --> 0:16:01.036 Okay. 0:16:01.396 --> 0:16:03.396 I may or may not have attended the live taping 0:16:03.516 --> 0:16:06.076 of After the Final Rows in LA for The Bachelor, 0:16:06.196 --> 0:16:08.796 So maybe I don't know. Did I miss a work 0:16:08.836 --> 0:16:09.956 dated that. I don't know? 0:16:10.156 --> 0:16:13.196 Okay, I don't know either. We will never know, actually. 0:16:12.916 --> 0:16:14.276 Like who would do that? I mean, wow, what a 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:18.116 wait of time? Right? Yeah? Okay, so just indulge me 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:21.196 for a second. And I would love to hear about 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:23.276 falling in love with Steve, Like when did you know 0:16:23.316 --> 0:16:25.076 that you wanted to marry him? And what was what 0:16:25.116 --> 0:16:27.796 were the traits that he exhibited that made you think, Okay, 0:16:28.076 --> 0:16:29.596 I think this guy. I could make it work with 0:16:29.636 --> 0:16:29.996 this guy. 0:16:33.556 --> 0:16:35.676 I mean I the first time I met him, I 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:37.396 went home and told my roommate, I think I'm going 0:16:37.436 --> 0:16:38.196 to marry this guy. 0:16:39.356 --> 0:16:40.156 And we were young. 0:16:40.196 --> 0:16:43.596 We were lifeguards in love at a pool over the summer. 0:16:43.676 --> 0:16:44.796 And how old were you? 0:16:46.116 --> 0:16:46.356 God? 0:16:46.436 --> 0:16:47.116 We were. 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:53.716 Eighteen and twenty one, and so we made mixtapes and. 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:56.676 We we like it was like. 0:16:58.836 --> 0:17:00.836 Yeah, and you know, and he comes from a lot 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:03.076 of hard family stuff too, and he was the first 0:17:03.076 --> 0:17:05.316 person that we talked about that. And then we dated 0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:07.596 off and on for seven years and got married and 0:17:07.636 --> 0:17:08.636 we've been married now. 0:17:09.476 --> 0:17:12.476 It'll be thirty years in June. 0:17:12.876 --> 0:17:15.836 Wow, COVID the last couple of years has been the 0:17:15.876 --> 0:17:21.636 hardest season of our marriage, for sure. I think we 0:17:21.756 --> 0:17:25.596 both believe it's supposed to be hard as hell. 0:17:27.996 --> 0:17:30.116 Can you tell me about why COVID in particular was 0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:30.556 so hard. 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:34.076 I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are. 0:17:34.716 --> 0:17:37.156 I think, you know, he's a pediatrician. I'm trying to 0:17:37.236 --> 0:17:41.316 keep a business afloat. My mom had just been diagnosed 0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:45.076 with rapid onset dementia, and then we tried to get 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:48.036 snink my mom out of her assisted living facility, like 0:17:48.076 --> 0:17:50.436 in the hour before it shut down, where we couldn't 0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:54.236 get in everybody's living together. It was just like it 0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:56.676 was what everybody was going through in the world, you know, 0:17:56.916 --> 0:18:01.716 And we had resources and access to things that the 0:18:01.836 --> 0:18:04.036 vast majority of people didn't have, and we were still 0:18:04.076 --> 0:18:07.396 just barely holding on and we did not have any 0:18:08.236 --> 0:18:11.796 bandwidth for each other or anything but what was in 0:18:11.836 --> 0:18:14.956 front of us to accomplish that day. And that's the 0:18:14.956 --> 0:18:18.196 conditions under which things, you know, fall apart. So it 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:22.316 was a rebuild. And we're also in a weird season 0:18:22.356 --> 0:18:25.116 of our lives. Our youngest is going to college. There's 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:27.196 a real like, hi, and Brene, nice to meet you. 0:18:27.236 --> 0:18:29.796 I'm Steve, nice to meet you. It's a season on 0:18:29.836 --> 0:18:30.596 it in its own. 0:18:31.316 --> 0:18:33.596 Yeah. You know, you had mentioned that you and Steve 0:18:33.756 --> 0:18:36.396 both believe that marriage is supposed to be hard as hell, 0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:39.116 and I'm wondering if you can unpack that for me. 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:44.156 So I think expecting it to be hard, expecting it 0:18:44.196 --> 0:18:47.516 to be work, it's just not two people hanging out 0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:51.636 being themselves. There's like that third entity that is your 0:18:51.676 --> 0:18:55.116 relationship that very few of us saw modeled how to 0:18:55.156 --> 0:18:56.316 build it in a way that we want to be 0:18:56.396 --> 0:19:00.956 in it. My parents are divorced, Steve's parents are divorced. 0:19:01.356 --> 0:19:04.396 See's parents are divorced, remarried, were married, divorced. My parents divorce, 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:06.796 We married divorced, you know, like, and so we knew 0:19:06.796 --> 0:19:09.076 what we didn't want it to be and we also 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:11.396 just knew it was going to be a ton of work. 0:19:12.356 --> 0:19:13.396 I've done a lot of hard. 0:19:13.196 --> 0:19:16.796 Shit in my life, nothing compares to how hard this is. 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:27.836 And so I think that having kids shocked to the system, 0:19:27.876 --> 0:19:36.876 Balancing careers shock to the system, navigating different career trajectories 0:19:36.956 --> 0:19:42.596 and ambitions, death, illness shocks to the system. I mean, 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:48.876 I think I heard Paul Newman saying the reason why 0:19:48.876 --> 0:19:51.116 his marriage lasted so long is neither one of them 0:19:51.116 --> 0:19:52.316 wanted to get a divorce at. 0:19:52.276 --> 0:19:56.796 The same time. And I think that's so funny and true. 0:19:56.876 --> 0:20:02.276 But I think very few of us know how to. 0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:09.836 Fight well, talk about our feelings a way where we 0:20:09.836 --> 0:20:11.676 can stay curious with each other and not defensive. 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:14.556 I mean, I'm still learning that stuff, Like we're still 0:20:14.556 --> 0:20:14.916 trying to. 0:20:14.876 --> 0:20:17.196 Get better, and I mean, hey, the jury still out, 0:20:17.196 --> 0:20:19.916 I would you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot 0:20:19.956 --> 0:20:23.636 of shit can go bad really fast. But to this point, 0:20:24.316 --> 0:20:29.676 we were able to coordinate our individual growth inside of 0:20:29.676 --> 0:20:30.436 our partnership. 0:20:31.276 --> 0:20:34.436 Yeah, it is. So I'm just reflecting this moment. It's 0:20:34.436 --> 0:20:37.956 hearkening back to twenty sixteen when my husband Jimmy and 0:20:38.036 --> 0:20:40.156 I got married, and I remember writing our vows, and 0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:42.276 at the end it was something like, you know, with 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:44.636 all these people surrounding us who love us so dearly, 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:47.356 you know, I feel that we can beat anything. And 0:20:47.396 --> 0:20:48.996 then I like took my pen and I was like, 0:20:49.356 --> 0:20:52.436 I don't believe that there are so many things that 0:20:52.476 --> 0:20:55.396 could break us, Like, yeah, I have the humility to 0:20:55.476 --> 0:20:57.476 know all the many things that could break us. And 0:20:57.516 --> 0:21:00.716 so I remember striking that out and writing instead, the 0:21:00.836 --> 0:21:05.756 odds are in our favor, which was such a maya 0:21:05.836 --> 0:21:08.556 thing to put in a vows and made perfect sense 0:21:08.596 --> 0:21:11.316 to Jimmy and probably made it more romantic from his perspective. 0:21:11.356 --> 0:21:13.236 But it's so awesome. 0:21:13.836 --> 0:21:15.996 It's so statistically, I think the odds are good. 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:18.396 Yeah, the odds are good. So that was kind of 0:21:18.436 --> 0:21:22.316 acknowledging what you've been saying this whole time, which is 0:21:23.036 --> 0:21:27.036 things can get really really hard. Yeah, as you think 0:21:27.036 --> 0:21:29.596 to the future, is there an identity that you would 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:31.916 love to lay claim to that you would love to 0:21:31.956 --> 0:21:37.476 have but you haven't yet? God Lee, Sorry, that's a toughie. 0:21:38.156 --> 0:21:39.036 No, it's so good. 0:21:40.596 --> 0:21:44.756 I think the identity that I have right now that 0:21:44.836 --> 0:21:49.956 I can't wait to see where it goes is two 0:21:49.996 --> 0:21:56.756 have a my guess our mom and partner. I I 0:21:56.836 --> 0:21:59.956 there's so much better sweetness in being a mom, because 0:22:00.316 --> 0:22:03.276 the whole gig is such a shit show because you're 0:22:03.316 --> 0:22:06.316 just really trying to help them leave you, and so 0:22:06.476 --> 0:22:07.316 that's like tough. 0:22:07.556 --> 0:22:11.356 But of course, yeah, yeah, But I will say that 0:22:12.156 --> 0:22:12.596 I have. 0:22:12.676 --> 0:22:18.436 Loved being the mom of adult children as much as 0:22:18.516 --> 0:22:21.756 I loved you know, four year olds and eight year 0:22:21.796 --> 0:22:25.156 olds and twelve year olds and fifteen year olds and toddlers. 0:22:25.196 --> 0:22:31.796 And it's just watching my kids figure out who they 0:22:31.836 --> 0:22:33.756 want to be and how they want to contribute to 0:22:33.796 --> 0:22:38.116 the world and navigate their own partnerships and friendships is 0:22:38.196 --> 0:22:40.876 just such a privilege to get to do and it's 0:22:41.036 --> 0:22:45.836 so fun, and so I'm excited to continue that role 0:22:46.436 --> 0:22:48.836 and just to see how it plays out and to continue, 0:22:49.036 --> 0:22:50.996 you know, the privilege of getting to be a part 0:22:50.996 --> 0:22:54.076 of their lives. And I think also I'm very curious 0:22:54.076 --> 0:22:56.836 and interested in committed to figuring out how Steve and 0:22:56.836 --> 0:23:00.316 I do this next season. And I'll be curious to 0:23:00.356 --> 0:23:04.676 see what I want to do with my career and 0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:08.356 what I won't want to do anymore. And I have 0:23:08.436 --> 0:23:10.956 some some usual some suspects on the list of what 0:23:10.996 --> 0:23:12.836 I don't want to do anymore and some suspects on 0:23:12.876 --> 0:23:14.876 the list of what I might want to do. I 0:23:14.916 --> 0:23:17.556 think getting off social for a year was really helpful 0:23:18.036 --> 0:23:20.676 because I do think there is the leading of who 0:23:20.716 --> 0:23:22.316 you are for the avatar. 0:23:21.916 --> 0:23:22.556 Of who you are. 0:23:23.076 --> 0:23:25.236 Yeah, definitely a. 0:23:25.196 --> 0:23:28.276 Lot of the systems that we thought would be good 0:23:28.276 --> 0:23:33.276 around this or broken and the algorithms are set the 0:23:33.316 --> 0:23:33.876 wrong way. 0:23:34.956 --> 0:23:35.956 Do you agree, yes? 0:23:36.996 --> 0:23:38.556 Yeah, Yeah, I. 0:23:38.476 --> 0:23:40.716 Don't know what the answer is. I don't know how 0:23:41.596 --> 0:23:50.196 to build community have impact. Yeah, in a world that's 0:23:50.236 --> 0:23:52.556 full of so much pain and projection. 0:23:55.196 --> 0:23:57.516 I don't know what the experience of your advantage point is. 0:23:58.036 --> 0:24:01.316 I only have my own. But I can see myself 0:24:02.076 --> 0:24:06.556