1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers, I've got a special guest for 2 00:00:32,956 --> 00:00:36,756 Speaker 1: you this week, Brenee Brown. You may have heard Brene's 3 00:00:36,796 --> 00:00:40,476 Speaker 1: ted talk, The Power of Vulnerability. It's been viewed more 4 00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 1: than sixty four million times. She's a social science professor 5 00:00:45,036 --> 00:00:47,836 Speaker 1: at the University of Houston and is best known for 6 00:00:47,876 --> 00:00:52,916 Speaker 1: her research on complex emotions like shame and vulnerability. She's 7 00:00:52,996 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: also the best selling author of books like Braving the 8 00:00:55,556 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 1: Wilderness and Atlas of the Heart. A few years ago, 9 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:01,516 Speaker 1: I was a guest on her podcast, Dare to Lead. 10 00:01:02,076 --> 00:01:04,756 Speaker 1: We talked about cultivating courage and the face of change 11 00:01:04,916 --> 00:01:08,476 Speaker 1: and how change can affect our identities. And so today 12 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: I wanted to continue that conversation and talk a bit 13 00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:15,356 Speaker 1: more about identity, how we can find ourselves picking up 14 00:01:15,516 --> 00:01:17,956 Speaker 1: and holding on to different ones over the course of 15 00:01:17,996 --> 00:01:21,836 Speaker 1: our lives. Brenee and I discussed a few identities that 16 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:28,116 Speaker 1: she holds particularly close. Recovering, perfectionist, reluctant public figure, partner 17 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:31,876 Speaker 1: to her husband, and parent to two kids. We began 18 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:36,316 Speaker 1: our conversation talking about one of her earliest identities, big sister. 19 00:01:37,156 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: She says her role as big sister really started to 20 00:01:39,876 --> 00:01:41,996 Speaker 1: take shape when she was around eight years old. 21 00:01:42,876 --> 00:01:48,756 Speaker 2: In my family, there was a very fine line between 22 00:01:49,196 --> 00:01:50,996 Speaker 2: older sister and co parent. 23 00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:52,916 Speaker 3: I think those. 24 00:01:54,196 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 2: Identities grew together in an inextricably connected way, for better 25 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 2: and worse. My parents, like many of our parents, really 26 00:02:08,476 --> 00:02:12,116 Speaker 2: had no idea what they were doing, and they were 27 00:02:12,116 --> 00:02:14,236 Speaker 2: doing the best they could. They both came from a 28 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:20,716 Speaker 2: ton of trauma, and so very early on, my job 29 00:02:20,836 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 2: was to maintain as much stability as possible in a 30 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:27,396 Speaker 2: very tumultuous household. 31 00:02:29,196 --> 00:02:31,476 Speaker 1: In the context of young Brune, did that look like 32 00:02:32,596 --> 00:02:34,356 Speaker 1: emotional support? 33 00:02:34,956 --> 00:02:38,156 Speaker 3: It's a tough question. I think that identity of. 34 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:45,756 Speaker 2: Older sister, co parent protector grew in harmony with another 35 00:02:45,876 --> 00:02:50,516 Speaker 2: identity that's really profoundly still who I am, which is patternfinder. 36 00:02:51,116 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 2: I could understand very quickly what comment between my parents 37 00:02:57,676 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 2: or someone else that was maybe at the house. 38 00:03:00,156 --> 00:03:02,676 Speaker 3: Would unwind in a way that. 39 00:03:02,636 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 2: Would make things tenuous and possibly dangerous. I think I 40 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 2: was always kind of of running around sorting things, calming 41 00:03:13,796 --> 00:03:19,676 Speaker 2: things down, intervening, making sure everything was as okay as 42 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:21,876 Speaker 2: it could be, to prevent some kind of blow up. 43 00:03:22,516 --> 00:03:25,476 Speaker 1: I love this idea of patternfinder. I think in so 44 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:28,716 Speaker 1: many ways we're kindred spirits in that way. I mean, oh, 45 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, Like, even though I was the 46 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 1: youngest of four, I was so emotionally attuned to dynamics 47 00:03:35,876 --> 00:03:40,956 Speaker 1: and was trying to like implicitly or explicitly negotiate things, 48 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:44,156 Speaker 1: and it was almost impossible for me to ever turn 49 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 1: that switch. 50 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:48,116 Speaker 3: Off one hundred percent. I actually. 51 00:03:49,316 --> 00:03:52,156 Speaker 2: Have spent probably twenty years of my life trying to 52 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 2: do work to turn that off. I am I am 53 00:03:56,756 --> 00:04:05,596 Speaker 2: always assessing, and I very quickly can see how behavior, emotion, 54 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:09,716 Speaker 2: and cognition are connected in people. I mean my family 55 00:04:09,716 --> 00:04:13,596 Speaker 2: growing up, if someone made a joke, everyone would laugh 56 00:04:14,316 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 2: and I would just kind of like uh. And I 57 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 2: could see if the exact same joke was made but 58 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:24,716 Speaker 2: the context was different, there is potentially going to be 59 00:04:24,756 --> 00:04:28,276 Speaker 2: a screaming match or potential violence just based on the 60 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:32,316 Speaker 2: context of it happening. And it explains a lot about me, 61 00:04:32,836 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 2: which is I was not fun. I was the protector 62 00:04:40,236 --> 00:04:46,556 Speaker 2: or the protector in waiting. It's kind of like that 63 00:04:46,596 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 2: movie where the where the kids like I see dead people. 64 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:51,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sixth sense yeah yeah, y yeah. 65 00:04:51,796 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 2: It's kind of like I see when shit's getting ready 66 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 2: to go down. Yeah, absolutely, And I don't intervene anymore. 67 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:00,436 Speaker 2: But I also, you know, want to high tail it 68 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:02,036 Speaker 2: out of there and take the people I love with me. 69 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:07,196 Speaker 1: How do you see your relationship as protector patterns secret 70 00:05:07,236 --> 00:05:09,996 Speaker 1: big sister having evolved over time? So, now that you're 71 00:05:10,636 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: in adulthood and you're outside of the immediately threatening environment, 72 00:05:14,996 --> 00:05:18,796 Speaker 1: let's say, a family life, how has that role changed 73 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 1: for you, if at all. I mean, it still might 74 00:05:21,916 --> 00:05:24,196 Speaker 1: have those same tones. I'm just curious. 75 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:29,316 Speaker 2: I think when you come from kind of an eggshell environment, 76 00:05:30,716 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 2: there's a hyper vigilance around what's going to cause the 77 00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:37,876 Speaker 2: response that's dangerous, either verbally, emotionally, or maybe even physically. 78 00:05:38,596 --> 00:05:40,596 Speaker 2: I have done and am doing a lot of personal 79 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:43,756 Speaker 2: work around it, and continue to do it. I think 80 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 2: my sisters and I call each other out on it. 81 00:05:47,876 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 2: One of my sisters will say, hey, hey, hey, we 82 00:05:50,396 --> 00:05:52,316 Speaker 2: know how to handle we're grown up too now, and 83 00:05:52,556 --> 00:05:53,996 Speaker 2: we also think we can do some of this way 84 00:05:53,996 --> 00:05:57,076 Speaker 2: better than you can do it, So back off, call 85 00:05:57,116 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 2: your therapist, sit down, you know. 86 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 3: And so I'm like, Okay, yeah, that's great because I can't. 87 00:06:01,316 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, what a wonderful evolution. I'd love to 88 00:06:06,076 --> 00:06:08,956 Speaker 1: hop to the next identity lily pad if you will, 89 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: and talk about perfectionism. So yet another one that we 90 00:06:12,996 --> 00:06:16,636 Speaker 1: share in common, Vernee, where do you think the roots 91 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 1: of your perfectionism emerged? So let's take genes off the table. 92 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: So let's say you know, we both have a genetic 93 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:25,636 Speaker 1: predisposition towards this, but environmentally, what do you think might 94 00:06:25,676 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 1: have led to that? 95 00:06:27,516 --> 00:06:33,436 Speaker 2: I from an early age, as the oldest, as the protector, 96 00:06:34,636 --> 00:06:40,196 Speaker 2: I saw and experienced a link between my loveability and 97 00:06:40,276 --> 00:06:46,716 Speaker 2: how good I was, and I needed to be morally 98 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:55,676 Speaker 2: ethically performatively, you know, like in every dimension good equated 99 00:06:55,716 --> 00:06:56,436 Speaker 2: to love ability. 100 00:06:56,956 --> 00:06:59,116 Speaker 1: And was this love from your parents or just in 101 00:06:59,116 --> 00:07:00,956 Speaker 1: general from all the adults in your life? 102 00:07:01,756 --> 00:07:03,516 Speaker 2: I think it was from all the adults. I think 103 00:07:03,556 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 2: there was this collection of moments that just continue to 104 00:07:07,676 --> 00:07:11,116 Speaker 2: provide data piece after data piece after data piece, you know, 105 00:07:11,276 --> 00:07:25,076 Speaker 2: like dependability, sacrifice, manners, grades, a million pieces of data 106 00:07:25,276 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 2: that reinforce this idea that good is lovable and not 107 00:07:36,396 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 2: good is not lovable. 108 00:07:40,276 --> 00:07:43,636 Speaker 1: Is there a time you remember where you actively wished 109 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:46,956 Speaker 1: you were not a perfectionist, where you felt it's sabotaging 110 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 1: some aspect of your life. 111 00:07:49,876 --> 00:07:51,476 Speaker 2: I guess one of the things that's dawning on me 112 00:07:51,516 --> 00:07:55,236 Speaker 2: as we're having this conversation right now, is the idea 113 00:07:55,236 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 2: of perfectionism being what will other people think? I am 114 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 2: not as vulnerable to that as I used to be. 115 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:13,116 Speaker 2: Where I am still vulnerable is when people say you're 116 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:17,236 Speaker 2: not a good person. That I have to work on 117 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:21,716 Speaker 2: that to not be crippling. So when I do something 118 00:08:21,716 --> 00:08:24,196 Speaker 2: that people disagree with, or I have a position that 119 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:27,796 Speaker 2: people disagree with and they attribute that to what they 120 00:08:27,796 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 2: think they know about me, that can be really, really 121 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:32,756 Speaker 2: painful for me. 122 00:08:34,756 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 1: And how do you engage with that pain? What's your response? 123 00:08:39,756 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 1: Because surely it's not just changing your position, right, you 124 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 1: have a set of values, and so I wonder when 125 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 1: you run up against that tension, but appeasing that audience 126 00:08:51,836 --> 00:08:53,676 Speaker 1: by changing your point of view isn't on the table. 127 00:08:53,716 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 1: What do you do? 128 00:08:57,276 --> 00:09:00,076 Speaker 2: I try to always keep curiosity in learning on the table. 129 00:09:00,716 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 2: I try to extend the same generosity to other people 130 00:09:03,316 --> 00:09:06,196 Speaker 2: that I'd want extended to me. I try to take 131 00:09:06,236 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 2: in what's learnable and then what's mean spirited or hateful. 132 00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 3: But I think. 133 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 2: I don't know how to do it really well. To 134 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:16,716 Speaker 2: be honest with you, I don't have a solution there. 135 00:09:16,836 --> 00:09:20,476 Speaker 1: No, and I'm with you girl. So yeah, there was 136 00:09:20,556 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 1: an experience that I had at work where because of 137 00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:29,676 Speaker 1: a misunderstanding, I felt like a colleague of mine thought 138 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 1: I wasn't a good person and she wouldn't engage with 139 00:09:32,716 --> 00:09:35,396 Speaker 1: me on the topic. So I never had the opportunity 140 00:09:35,956 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 1: to conflict resolve. And this was one of the most 141 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:43,116 Speaker 1: maddening experiences for me because I am not prideful. I 142 00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 1: will come to every table admit where I went wrong 143 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 1: or what my weaknesses are. But the fact she wasn't 144 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:51,236 Speaker 1: willing to engage brene put me into this frantic state 145 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 1: of panic, like I will never get resolution here. I 146 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:56,356 Speaker 1: will never be able to prove to this person that 147 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:58,556 Speaker 1: I'm actually good and I didn't mean any harm. And 148 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is she even is upset 149 00:10:00,316 --> 00:10:02,596 Speaker 1: with me about. And the only thing I had in 150 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:05,676 Speaker 1: that moment to work with was my own brain, because 151 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:08,436 Speaker 1: I had no ability to communicate with her. So I 152 00:10:08,436 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 1: had to find a way to change my own perception, 153 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 1: and so I visualized what it meant for her to 154 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:18,196 Speaker 1: maybe think that I was a bad person, And in 155 00:10:18,276 --> 00:10:22,396 Speaker 1: my head, the visual was there are these electrical signals 156 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 1: in her brain that occasionally occur where these neurons fire 157 00:10:27,756 --> 00:10:31,716 Speaker 1: and say I don't like Maya, okay, and it's fleeting, 158 00:10:31,756 --> 00:10:33,636 Speaker 1: and like, I'm not a narcisst I know it's having 159 00:10:33,716 --> 00:10:38,556 Speaker 1: very infrequently, but all it is is just this transient 160 00:10:38,756 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 1: electrical signal, and we pump so much air into this 161 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:45,836 Speaker 1: feeling of what other people think of us as this 162 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 1: massive concept, and for some reason, that visual took the 163 00:10:50,756 --> 00:10:53,836 Speaker 1: air out of it. It like deflated that balloon. It 164 00:10:53,876 --> 00:10:56,316 Speaker 1: took the power away from her. I was like, Okay, 165 00:10:56,996 --> 00:10:59,356 Speaker 1: so I'm going to walk around this world and there's 166 00:10:59,396 --> 00:11:03,676 Speaker 1: going to be humans who have that neural activity that 167 00:11:03,716 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: I don't agree with Maya. I don't like Maya. I 168 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:08,876 Speaker 1: think Maya's XYZ. And maybe that's a world that I 169 00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: can comfortably live in and be happy in and find 170 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:15,076 Speaker 1: peace in anyway. I don't know if that's helpful, but 171 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:18,436 Speaker 1: it's just it's taken some of the emotional punch out 172 00:11:18,476 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 1: of this feeling of someone not liking you or not 173 00:11:20,836 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 1: approving of you. 174 00:11:22,636 --> 00:11:28,116 Speaker 2: God, I'm like mesmerized, I'm hanging on every word. I 175 00:11:28,196 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 2: just think it's so right sizing that it's a fleeting 176 00:11:32,676 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 2: thought in the mind of a single person that we 177 00:11:35,876 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 2: have no control over. 178 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 3: I mean, it makes so much sense to me. 179 00:11:40,956 --> 00:11:47,076 Speaker 2: And the disproportionate amount of energy we spend compared to 180 00:11:47,196 --> 00:11:50,716 Speaker 2: the fleeting littles exactly mine. 181 00:11:52,276 --> 00:11:54,236 Speaker 1: You would have thought I was getting my PhD in 182 00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: this woman during that period of time, I was like 183 00:11:56,996 --> 00:11:59,036 Speaker 1: ninety percent of my brain power was like how do 184 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 1: I get her to not be mad at me? And 185 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: I don't even know why she's mad? You know, I 186 00:12:02,596 --> 00:12:06,676 Speaker 1: put so much mental labor into trying to solve this 187 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: problem that was unsolvable. Yeah, I meanside though, by the 188 00:12:09,956 --> 00:12:11,996 Speaker 1: way it just takes on this point, as you might think, well, 189 00:12:12,036 --> 00:12:14,916 Speaker 1: then every positive thought people have about me is transient too. 190 00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:17,476 Speaker 1: But I actually think it's good to think of the 191 00:12:17,516 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 1: positive stuff as transient as well. I mean, because otherwise 192 00:12:21,076 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: you can over index on that, you can attach so 193 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:26,556 Speaker 1: much value and self worth to that and then suddenly 194 00:12:26,596 --> 00:12:27,956 Speaker 1: collapses and you don't know what to do. 195 00:12:28,876 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 2: I absolutely and the positive vilance is much more scary 196 00:12:34,316 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 2: for me than the negative personally. To be honest with you, 197 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:39,956 Speaker 2: I don't like that party there very much. 198 00:12:40,476 --> 00:12:43,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, SayMore. I'm so curious, especially as because you're such 199 00:12:43,956 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 1: a public figure and so I'm so curious to know 200 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:46,876 Speaker 1: how that intersects. 201 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:50,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll go back to Braving the Wilderness. When I 202 00:12:50,676 --> 00:12:55,956 Speaker 2: wrote that book, i shared my support for Black Lives 203 00:12:56,036 --> 00:12:58,716 Speaker 2: Matter and why I thought it was a really important 204 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:03,076 Speaker 2: movement that we should be paying attention to. And it 205 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:09,156 Speaker 2: was the first time I experienced people walking out of 206 00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 2: event centers and places during my book tour talks specifically 207 00:13:15,796 --> 00:13:18,356 Speaker 2: around that issue, like getting up in the middle of 208 00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:23,476 Speaker 2: like what I'm talking, people said they felt personally betrayed 209 00:13:23,516 --> 00:13:28,396 Speaker 2: by me and disappointed in me because my work had 210 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:33,116 Speaker 2: meant so much to them and overcoming hard things the 211 00:13:33,116 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 2: death of a child or you know, their own eating disorder, 212 00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:40,156 Speaker 2: their divorce, or you know, just like really hard things, 213 00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:41,916 Speaker 2: And then how could I betray them by having an 214 00:13:41,956 --> 00:13:45,476 Speaker 2: opinion a political belief that was so far from their own. 215 00:13:47,196 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 2: And what I realized in that moment is that's a 216 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:58,276 Speaker 2: result of people projecting on me who they need me 217 00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:01,436 Speaker 2: to be. Does that make sense to you at all? 218 00:14:01,876 --> 00:14:06,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that is so interesting because basically, they they 219 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: found your work meaningful, therapy, resonant. It's helped them during 220 00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 1: a hard time, and obviously they have some fraction of 221 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 1: an understanding of who you are. Right, they're consuming a 222 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:20,756 Speaker 1: book you've written, and what you're saying is they're essentially 223 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 1: filling in all the gaps in their knowledge of who 224 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:26,356 Speaker 1: you are with an idealized version of you that meets 225 00:14:26,436 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 1: their criteria. 226 00:14:27,916 --> 00:14:29,796 Speaker 3: I remember the first time I became aware of it. 227 00:14:30,396 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 2: Oh, I was telling a story and I was like, oh, 228 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:36,956 Speaker 2: I was so mad. I was flipping this driver off 229 00:14:37,036 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 2: underneath that, you know, underneath the steering wall where they 230 00:14:39,036 --> 00:14:43,116 Speaker 2: couldn't see me. And someone said, you really actually don't 231 00:14:43,156 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 2: sound very wholehearted at all. 232 00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:47,596 Speaker 3: And I was like what. 233 00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 2: And they're like, I thought you were all about wholeheartedness, 234 00:14:50,676 --> 00:14:56,916 Speaker 2: and I was like, I think I'm about deep, flawed, messy, lovable, 235 00:14:56,916 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 2: amazing humanity like I, you know, And so I'm not 236 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:11,676 Speaker 2: going to be a good avatar for you. 237 00:15:09,276 --> 00:15:12,956 Speaker 1: Looking for a messy, complicated, deeply flawed person. 238 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:13,436 Speaker 4: Right. 239 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:20,156 Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Brene after the break. We'll 240 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:22,596 Speaker 1: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 241 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 1: One identity Brene Brown has had for a long time 242 00:15:37,996 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 1: is partner to her husband Steve. They've been together for decades. 243 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 1: I wanted to know more about how this identity has 244 00:15:45,276 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 1: evolved over time because I'm a hopeless romantic and I 245 00:15:49,636 --> 00:15:53,796 Speaker 1: also watch crappy TV like The Bachelor. Just indulge me 246 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:55,996 Speaker 1: for indulgent for a moment. 247 00:15:56,676 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 3: This I love about you. 248 00:15:57,756 --> 00:15:59,596 Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many things to love about you, 249 00:15:59,636 --> 00:16:00,716 Speaker 2: but this is one of my favorites. 250 00:16:00,756 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 3: Okay. 251 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 1: I may or may not have attended the live taping 252 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:06,076 Speaker 1: of After the Final Rows in LA for The Bachelor, 253 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 1: So maybe I don't know. Did I miss a work 254 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:09,956 Speaker 1: dated that. I don't know? 255 00:16:10,156 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 3: Okay, I don't know either. We will never know, actually. 256 00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 1: Like who would do that? I mean, wow, what a 257 00:16:14,356 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 1: wait of time? Right? Yeah? Okay, so just indulge me 258 00:16:18,156 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 1: for a second. And I would love to hear about 259 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:23,276 Speaker 1: falling in love with Steve, Like when did you know 260 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:25,076 Speaker 1: that you wanted to marry him? And what was what 261 00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:27,796 Speaker 1: were the traits that he exhibited that made you think, Okay, 262 00:16:28,076 --> 00:16:29,596 Speaker 1: I think this guy. I could make it work with 263 00:16:29,636 --> 00:16:29,996 Speaker 1: this guy. 264 00:16:33,556 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 2: I mean I the first time I met him, I 265 00:16:35,676 --> 00:16:37,396 Speaker 2: went home and told my roommate, I think I'm going 266 00:16:37,436 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 2: to marry this guy. 267 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:40,156 Speaker 3: And we were young. 268 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:43,596 Speaker 2: We were lifeguards in love at a pool over the summer. 269 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:44,796 Speaker 1: And how old were you? 270 00:16:46,116 --> 00:16:46,356 Speaker 3: God? 271 00:16:46,436 --> 00:16:47,116 Speaker 4: We were. 272 00:16:48,516 --> 00:16:53,716 Speaker 2: Eighteen and twenty one, and so we made mixtapes and. 273 00:16:53,596 --> 00:16:56,676 Speaker 3: We we like it was like. 274 00:16:58,836 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, and he comes from a lot 275 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:03,076 Speaker 2: of hard family stuff too, and he was the first 276 00:17:03,076 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 2: person that we talked about that. And then we dated 277 00:17:05,356 --> 00:17:07,596 Speaker 2: off and on for seven years and got married and 278 00:17:07,636 --> 00:17:08,636 Speaker 2: we've been married now. 279 00:17:09,476 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 3: It'll be thirty years in June. 280 00:17:12,876 --> 00:17:15,836 Speaker 2: Wow, COVID the last couple of years has been the 281 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 2: hardest season of our marriage, for sure. I think we 282 00:17:21,756 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 2: both believe it's supposed to be hard as hell. 283 00:17:27,996 --> 00:17:30,116 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about why COVID in particular was 284 00:17:30,156 --> 00:17:30,556 Speaker 1: so hard. 285 00:17:31,876 --> 00:17:34,076 Speaker 2: I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are. 286 00:17:34,716 --> 00:17:37,156 Speaker 2: I think, you know, he's a pediatrician. I'm trying to 287 00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:41,316 Speaker 2: keep a business afloat. My mom had just been diagnosed 288 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:45,076 Speaker 2: with rapid onset dementia, and then we tried to get 289 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:48,036 Speaker 2: snink my mom out of her assisted living facility, like 290 00:17:48,076 --> 00:17:50,436 Speaker 2: in the hour before it shut down, where we couldn't 291 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 2: get in everybody's living together. It was just like it 292 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 2: was what everybody was going through in the world, you know, 293 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 2: And we had resources and access to things that the 294 00:18:01,836 --> 00:18:04,036 Speaker 2: vast majority of people didn't have, and we were still 295 00:18:04,076 --> 00:18:07,396 Speaker 2: just barely holding on and we did not have any 296 00:18:08,236 --> 00:18:11,796 Speaker 2: bandwidth for each other or anything but what was in 297 00:18:11,836 --> 00:18:14,956 Speaker 2: front of us to accomplish that day. And that's the 298 00:18:14,956 --> 00:18:18,196 Speaker 2: conditions under which things, you know, fall apart. So it 299 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 2: was a rebuild. And we're also in a weird season 300 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:25,116 Speaker 2: of our lives. Our youngest is going to college. There's 301 00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:27,196 Speaker 2: a real like, hi, and Brene, nice to meet you. 302 00:18:27,236 --> 00:18:29,796 Speaker 2: I'm Steve, nice to meet you. It's a season on 303 00:18:29,836 --> 00:18:30,596 Speaker 2: it in its own. 304 00:18:31,316 --> 00:18:33,596 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, you had mentioned that you and Steve 305 00:18:33,756 --> 00:18:36,396 Speaker 1: both believe that marriage is supposed to be hard as hell, 306 00:18:37,036 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if you can unpack that for me. 307 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:44,156 Speaker 2: So I think expecting it to be hard, expecting it 308 00:18:44,196 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 2: to be work, it's just not two people hanging out 309 00:18:47,636 --> 00:18:51,636 Speaker 2: being themselves. There's like that third entity that is your 310 00:18:51,676 --> 00:18:55,116 Speaker 2: relationship that very few of us saw modeled how to 311 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:56,316 Speaker 2: build it in a way that we want to be 312 00:18:56,396 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 2: in it. My parents are divorced, Steve's parents are divorced. 313 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:04,396 Speaker 2: See's parents are divorced, remarried, were married, divorced. My parents divorce, 314 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 2: We married divorced, you know, like, and so we knew 315 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 2: what we didn't want it to be and we also 316 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:11,396 Speaker 2: just knew it was going to be a ton of work. 317 00:19:12,356 --> 00:19:13,396 Speaker 3: I've done a lot of hard. 318 00:19:13,196 --> 00:19:16,796 Speaker 2: Shit in my life, nothing compares to how hard this is. 319 00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 2: And so I think that having kids shocked to the system, 320 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:36,876 Speaker 2: Balancing careers shock to the system, navigating different career trajectories 321 00:19:36,956 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 2: and ambitions, death, illness shocks to the system. I mean, 322 00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 2: I think I heard Paul Newman saying the reason why 323 00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 2: his marriage lasted so long is neither one of them 324 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:52,316 Speaker 2: wanted to get a divorce at. 325 00:19:52,276 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 3: The same time. And I think that's so funny and true. 326 00:19:56,876 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 3: But I think very few of us know how to. 327 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:09,836 Speaker 2: Fight well, talk about our feelings a way where we 328 00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:11,676 Speaker 2: can stay curious with each other and not defensive. 329 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,556 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm still learning that stuff, Like we're still 330 00:20:14,556 --> 00:20:14,916 Speaker 3: trying to. 331 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:17,196 Speaker 2: Get better, and I mean, hey, the jury still out, 332 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 2: I would you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot 333 00:20:19,956 --> 00:20:23,636 Speaker 2: of shit can go bad really fast. But to this point, 334 00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:29,676 Speaker 2: we were able to coordinate our individual growth inside of 335 00:20:29,676 --> 00:20:30,436 Speaker 2: our partnership. 336 00:20:31,276 --> 00:20:34,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. So I'm just reflecting this moment. It's 337 00:20:34,436 --> 00:20:37,956 Speaker 1: hearkening back to twenty sixteen when my husband Jimmy and 338 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:40,156 Speaker 1: I got married, and I remember writing our vows, and 339 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 1: at the end it was something like, you know, with 340 00:20:42,316 --> 00:20:44,636 Speaker 1: all these people surrounding us who love us so dearly, 341 00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:47,356 Speaker 1: you know, I feel that we can beat anything. And 342 00:20:47,396 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 1: then I like took my pen and I was like, 343 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:52,436 Speaker 1: I don't believe that there are so many things that 344 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:55,396 Speaker 1: could break us, Like, yeah, I have the humility to 345 00:20:55,476 --> 00:20:57,476 Speaker 1: know all the many things that could break us. And 346 00:20:57,516 --> 00:21:00,716 Speaker 1: so I remember striking that out and writing instead, the 347 00:21:00,836 --> 00:21:05,756 Speaker 1: odds are in our favor, which was such a maya 348 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,556 Speaker 1: thing to put in a vows and made perfect sense 349 00:21:08,596 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 1: to Jimmy and probably made it more romantic from his perspective. 350 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:13,236 Speaker 1: But it's so awesome. 351 00:21:13,836 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 3: It's so statistically, I think the odds are good. 352 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, the odds are good. So that was kind of 353 00:21:18,436 --> 00:21:22,316 Speaker 1: acknowledging what you've been saying this whole time, which is 354 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:27,036 Speaker 1: things can get really really hard. Yeah, as you think 355 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:29,596 Speaker 1: to the future, is there an identity that you would 356 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:31,916 Speaker 1: love to lay claim to that you would love to 357 00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:37,476 Speaker 1: have but you haven't yet? God Lee, Sorry, that's a toughie. 358 00:21:38,156 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 3: No, it's so good. 359 00:21:40,596 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 2: I think the identity that I have right now that 360 00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 2: I can't wait to see where it goes is two 361 00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 2: have a my guess our mom and partner. I I 362 00:21:56,836 --> 00:21:59,956 Speaker 2: there's so much better sweetness in being a mom, because 363 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:03,276 Speaker 2: the whole gig is such a shit show because you're 364 00:22:03,316 --> 00:22:06,316 Speaker 2: just really trying to help them leave you, and so 365 00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 2: that's like tough. 366 00:22:07,556 --> 00:22:11,356 Speaker 3: But of course, yeah, yeah, But I will say that 367 00:22:12,156 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 3: I have. 368 00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:18,436 Speaker 2: Loved being the mom of adult children as much as 369 00:22:18,516 --> 00:22:21,756 Speaker 2: I loved you know, four year olds and eight year 370 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:25,156 Speaker 2: olds and twelve year olds and fifteen year olds and toddlers. 371 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:31,796 Speaker 2: And it's just watching my kids figure out who they 372 00:22:31,836 --> 00:22:33,756 Speaker 2: want to be and how they want to contribute to 373 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 2: the world and navigate their own partnerships and friendships is 374 00:22:38,196 --> 00:22:40,876 Speaker 2: just such a privilege to get to do and it's 375 00:22:41,036 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 2: so fun, and so I'm excited to continue that role 376 00:22:46,436 --> 00:22:48,836 Speaker 2: and just to see how it plays out and to continue, 377 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 2: you know, the privilege of getting to be a part 378 00:22:50,996 --> 00:22:54,076 Speaker 2: of their lives. And I think also I'm very curious 379 00:22:54,076 --> 00:22:56,836 Speaker 2: and interested in committed to figuring out how Steve and 380 00:22:56,836 --> 00:23:00,316 Speaker 2: I do this next season. And I'll be curious to 381 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:04,676 Speaker 2: see what I want to do with my career and 382 00:23:05,476 --> 00:23:08,356 Speaker 2: what I won't want to do anymore. And I have 383 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:10,956 Speaker 2: some some usual some suspects on the list of what 384 00:23:10,996 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 2: I don't want to do anymore and some suspects on 385 00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 2: the list of what I might want to do. I 386 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 2: think getting off social for a year was really helpful 387 00:23:18,036 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 2: because I do think there is the leading of who 388 00:23:20,716 --> 00:23:22,316 Speaker 2: you are for the avatar. 389 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:22,556 Speaker 3: Of who you are. 390 00:23:23,076 --> 00:23:25,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely a. 391 00:23:25,196 --> 00:23:28,276 Speaker 2: Lot of the systems that we thought would be good 392 00:23:28,276 --> 00:23:33,276 Speaker 2: around this or broken and the algorithms are set the 393 00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:33,876 Speaker 2: wrong way. 394 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 3: Do you agree, yes? 395 00:23:36,996 --> 00:23:38,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I. 396 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:40,716 Speaker 2: Don't know what the answer is. I don't know how 397 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:50,196 Speaker 2: to build community have impact. Yeah, in a world that's 398 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 2: full of so much pain and projection. 399 00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 1: I don't know what the experience of your advantage point is. 400 00:23:58,036 --> 00:24:01,316 Speaker 1: I only have my own. But I can see myself 401 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 1: tempering classic ambition in this space because I'm afraid of 402 00:24:06,636 --> 00:24:10,356 Speaker 1: it because it just. 403 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 2: Say that again, because it seems like really important. I 404 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 2: really want to understand what you're saying. 405 00:24:15,396 --> 00:24:18,036 Speaker 1: So I want my ideas to reach as many people 406 00:24:18,076 --> 00:24:23,996 Speaker 1: as possible. What I found myself resisting in the recent 407 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: online climate is more followers, more likes, more downloads, more this, 408 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:35,156 Speaker 1: more that, because I don't actually know if that's a 409 00:24:35,196 --> 00:24:41,076 Speaker 1: net good anymore, And so then what becomes the north star? Like, 410 00:24:41,156 --> 00:24:44,476 Speaker 1: what is my goal? I mean, it's meaningful connection with 411 00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:49,396 Speaker 1: individual people, right, how does that scale? And the current 412 00:24:49,996 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: social media environment is so unappealing to me because of 413 00:24:53,156 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: what it incentivizes. But at the same time, I spent 414 00:24:56,836 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: a lot of time doing a lot of thoughtful work. 415 00:24:58,756 --> 00:25:01,716 Speaker 1: I want the conversations on the show to be widely heard. 416 00:25:01,716 --> 00:25:04,876 Speaker 1: I want it in as many earbudds as possible. So like, 417 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 1: there's a tension there for me and I just don't 418 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:07,756 Speaker 1: know what the answers are. 419 00:25:09,396 --> 00:25:11,796 Speaker 2: That's just such a beautiful framing of the question. I 420 00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:13,636 Speaker 2: one of the questions that I'm asking myself based on 421 00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 2: what you just said, is how do you operationalize ambition? 422 00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,916 Speaker 2: How do you set metrics for success in the current 423 00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:25,036 Speaker 2: milieu that we live in. 424 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:28,716 Speaker 1: So, like, one example of this is that I know 425 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 1: that a slight change of plans would quote perform better 426 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 1: if I did more episodes a year. This is a 427 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:40,116 Speaker 1: situation where I will only produce high quality content if 428 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:44,156 Speaker 1: I have a life that I live outside of this world, 429 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,556 Speaker 1: because otherwise I'm not living enough of life to be 430 00:25:47,636 --> 00:25:50,876 Speaker 1: interesting or to learn to consume other people's content, to 431 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:54,916 Speaker 1: read books and just be a better person. 432 00:25:55,076 --> 00:25:58,236 Speaker 2: But let's but let's can I just could you just 433 00:25:58,396 --> 00:26:02,436 Speaker 2: indulge me for a second, please, talking about a powerful 434 00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:08,596 Speaker 2: and beautiful way of operationalizing ambition. I am ambitious for 435 00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:11,156 Speaker 2: converse I want to have. I am ambitious for books 436 00:26:11,196 --> 00:26:14,596 Speaker 2: I want to read. I am ambitious for my own life. 437 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:21,556 Speaker 2: Operationalizing ambition in a way that includes our lives and 438 00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:25,156 Speaker 2: our families and our health and our mental wellness, and 439 00:26:25,196 --> 00:26:28,676 Speaker 2: then setting metrics for success that include those same things. 440 00:26:28,956 --> 00:26:29,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. 441 00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:31,036 Speaker 2: So. 442 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 1: One thing I've done recently, just in case this is 443 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 1: the thing you want to do too, can really help 444 00:26:35,596 --> 00:26:38,636 Speaker 1: me is every time I get a letter from a 445 00:26:38,676 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 1: listener over the last couple of years, the ones that 446 00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:42,996 Speaker 1: really are so beautiful and meaningful and that you're just like, Wow, 447 00:26:43,236 --> 00:26:45,716 Speaker 1: how did I earn this trust from you? I mean, 448 00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:48,276 Speaker 1: it's such an honor, right, So I've been screencapping them, 449 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 1: and I recently created an album in my photos app 450 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 1: which is called Slight Change Love Letters. So on a 451 00:26:56,756 --> 00:27:00,676 Speaker 1: rainy day where I feel low morale, go to the album, 452 00:27:02,116 --> 00:27:05,996 Speaker 1: remind yourself, reorient yourself, reground yourself and what really matters 453 00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:09,756 Speaker 1: and is actually like all of these tangible lives that 454 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:12,276 Speaker 1: have been improved by the work that you do, and 455 00:27:12,316 --> 00:27:14,316 Speaker 1: that's just going to have to be enough. That's going 456 00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:18,436 Speaker 1: to have to be what matters, and it's all that matters. Yeah, 457 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:20,276 Speaker 1: and oh okay, let me just share this with you, 458 00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:23,956 Speaker 1: the interview that you did with me on Dare to Lead. Yes, 459 00:27:24,236 --> 00:27:27,556 Speaker 1: I heard from a woman who said, I heard your 460 00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:33,956 Speaker 1: conversation with Brene, and I've been trying to reckon with 461 00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 1: the loss of my nineteen year old son to a 462 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:40,116 Speaker 1: drug overdose, and that conversation that you had with Brene 463 00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 1: unlocked healing for me. 464 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:48,796 Speaker 2: M I mean that woman that that story, that story 465 00:27:48,876 --> 00:27:51,436 Speaker 2: is kind of the summary of our entire conversation in 466 00:27:51,476 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 2: my heart, Maya, because that story wasn't like, oh, you 467 00:27:54,996 --> 00:27:58,236 Speaker 2: and Brene are such badasses and y'all are rock stars 468 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:00,636 Speaker 2: and y'all are the best and better than everyone. It 469 00:28:00,796 --> 00:28:03,476 Speaker 2: was you had a conversation that was intimate and hard, 470 00:28:04,196 --> 00:28:08,116 Speaker 2: and that specific conversation unlocked something in my grieving process 471 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 2: about my child who died. It wasn't the avatar creation. 472 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:18,996 Speaker 2: It was you said something that helped me heal. And 473 00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:23,716 Speaker 2: it's not about celebrity, and it's not about fame, and 474 00:28:23,796 --> 00:28:29,116 Speaker 2: it's not about who we are as people flawed imperfect, 475 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 2: messy learners. It's about trying to put good work into 476 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:33,276 Speaker 2: the world. 477 00:28:33,596 --> 00:28:34,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 478 00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 3: Every time I talk to. 479 00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:43,956 Speaker 2: You, I learned things, and I freaking love how your 480 00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:46,116 Speaker 2: mind and your heart work, and I love how they 481 00:28:46,156 --> 00:28:46,716 Speaker 2: work together. 482 00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:47,436 Speaker 4: Thank you. 483 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 2: It's a really unique and special thing that I know 484 00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:51,156 Speaker 2: you work hard at. 485 00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:56,156 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. And I've found today just so 486 00:28:56,916 --> 00:28:58,516 Speaker 1: lovely to talk to a kindred spirit. 487 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:14,676 Speaker 4: Same. 488 00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:23,516 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you want to 489 00:29:23,516 --> 00:29:26,036 Speaker 1: listen to my episode with Brene on dare to Lead, 490 00:29:26,516 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 1: check out the link in our show notes. And if 491 00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:32,036 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this conversation, we on the Slight Change team 492 00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:34,556 Speaker 1: would be so grateful if you shared the episode with 493 00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:37,676 Speaker 1: someone you know, maybe it's someone who's finding their own 494 00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 1: identity shifting lately. It helps us get out the words 495 00:29:41,316 --> 00:29:44,316 Speaker 1: so we can keep making more episodes for you. We'll 496 00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:46,276 Speaker 1: be back in just a few weeks with a new 497 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 1: season of A Slight Change of Plans. See you then. 498 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:02,156 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 499 00:30:02,196 --> 00:30:06,116 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 500 00:30:06,156 --> 00:30:10,476 Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson, Morgan, 501 00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:15,076 Speaker 1: our senior producer Trisha Bobida and our engineer Eric o'kwang. 502 00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:19,116 Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith 503 00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:22,476 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 504 00:30:22,476 --> 00:30:25,396 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to 505 00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 1: everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to 506 00:30:29,156 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 1: Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans 507 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:35,676 Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.