WEBVTT - Manafort Accountant Denies Gates Deception Theory

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. As the first

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<v Speaker 1>week of Paul Maniforts tax and bank fraud trial comes

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<v Speaker 1>to an end, federal prosecutors are shifting away from highlighting

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<v Speaker 1>the excesses of President Trump's former campaign chairman's lifestyle and

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<v Speaker 1>are now concentrating on the core of their fraud accusations

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<v Speaker 1>against him, joining us as Brad Moss, a partner at

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Zade Brad, So, the prosecutors are turning away from

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<v Speaker 1>the lavish lifestyle into the nitty gritty with the bookkeeper

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<v Speaker 1>or the accountant and all the documents. What's your take

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<v Speaker 1>on how the prosecution is putting on its case. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>so looks the way they're doing this is they set

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<v Speaker 1>the stage initially to give the jury as sense of

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<v Speaker 1>just how high on the hog Paul Manifold was living.

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<v Speaker 1>All the fancy clothes, the ridiculous Ostrich jacket and the

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<v Speaker 1>python jack and all these different things and they give

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<v Speaker 1>them a sense of just how lavish of a lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 1>Now they're explaining how he paid for and how he

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<v Speaker 1>committed tax fraud and bank fraud and wire fraud in

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<v Speaker 1>order to live like that. He was hiding for bank

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<v Speaker 1>accounts and defrauding the I R s when he could

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<v Speaker 1>submit his tax returns. He was submitting fraudulent invoices to

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<v Speaker 1>banks in order to get loan, bank frauds, wire fraud.

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<v Speaker 1>So all these things where they set up the initial piece,

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<v Speaker 1>and now they're showing the jury how he broke the

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<v Speaker 1>law in order to live like that. What's your assessment

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<v Speaker 1>of how the government is is prosecuting the case, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>this latest part with the accountant and the bookkeeper. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So these types of process like color crimes, the very

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<v Speaker 1>document heavy, and they're candidly generally pretty boring. This isn't

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<v Speaker 1>this isn't matt lock, this isn't law order. There's not

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<v Speaker 1>going to be anything, you know, really thrilling about this.

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<v Speaker 1>This is all about documents and the details of who

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<v Speaker 1>provided invoices and how it was provided falsely. They're doing

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<v Speaker 1>a simple standard paper case they do for all these

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<v Speaker 1>type of white collar crimes, and by and large, they

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<v Speaker 1>kind of fell in love with the bit of some

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<v Speaker 1>of their evidence, and the judge rained him in and

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<v Speaker 1>that's fine, um, But they're largely setting out a pretty lot,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, lockdown case. I don't really know where manaforts

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<v Speaker 1>defense is going to come in here to really beat

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<v Speaker 1>back most of this. The idea that Richard Gates was

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<v Speaker 1>doing all of this on his own and that Maniford

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know just is belied by the testaments coming out

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<v Speaker 1>from the account they seem to be preparing for that

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<v Speaker 1>defense cross of their star witness, Rick Gates. How does

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<v Speaker 1>Manifort get past tax returns where he answered none to

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<v Speaker 1>the question of whether he had foreign accounts? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you get past that kind of evidence? Now,

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<v Speaker 1>your guess is as good as mine. Where they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to go with that, and the interesting to see how

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<v Speaker 1>they present their case when the testimony is coming out

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<v Speaker 1>from the accounts from the cp a's the tax prepares

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<v Speaker 1>laid it out pretty thickly that Gates was not the one,

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<v Speaker 1>by and large who was controlling all this, even if

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<v Speaker 1>when he did ford information. They testified that Manafort was

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<v Speaker 1>well aware of the details, that he was very involved.

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know if the Manafort team has some

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<v Speaker 1>other trick up their sleeve and they're preparing and waiting

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<v Speaker 1>for once they start their case, or if they're just

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<v Speaker 1>banking on one of two things, One Aparton from the

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<v Speaker 1>President who's clearly not happy with this whole thing going

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<v Speaker 1>down because it implicates this campaign. Or two they're hoping

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<v Speaker 1>there's one juror just one who maybe thinks this is

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<v Speaker 1>a little heavy handed, maybe you know, secretly thinks it's

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<v Speaker 1>just the deep state coming out to go after Trump

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<v Speaker 1>through Manafort and won't budge. So, Brad, what are the

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<v Speaker 1>chances that mana Fort might actually take the stands in

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<v Speaker 1>his own defense? Zero to none or yes, I say,

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<v Speaker 1>I say, slim the Nune if he would be completely

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<v Speaker 1>against the advice of his law hears, if he goes

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<v Speaker 1>understand there's no reason for him to go up there.

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<v Speaker 1>This is all about documentation and whether or not they

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<v Speaker 1>can just under ride as our undermine the credibility of

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution witnesses, particularly someone like Gates. If it gets

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<v Speaker 1>to the idea of Manaphort testifying, that's a hail Mary

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<v Speaker 1>and there's no reason why he should be going up there.

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<v Speaker 1>The prosecution is already putting in evidence of some of

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<v Speaker 1>the illegal things that Gates did in this sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the alteration of documents. So what are they trying to

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<v Speaker 1>do to prepare for gates testimony? Look, I mean, they're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to try to point our story portray Gates

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<v Speaker 1>is some kind of you know, white Knight. He was

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<v Speaker 1>part of the conspiracy. He's now cooperating witness outlining how

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<v Speaker 1>he helped perpetrate or and perpetuate this fraud and explain

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<v Speaker 1>how he did it in coordination with Manaphor. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>that Gates was doing it all alone and Manaphort was

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<v Speaker 1>this completely unaware individual. They're gonna outline how every piece

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<v Speaker 1>of this was a coordinated conspiracy involving both of these individuals.

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<v Speaker 1>And what do you make Brad of that one slip

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<v Speaker 1>on on Tuesday, I think it was or Wednesday where

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution said, well we may not call Gates. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean that that seemed like it was something that even

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<v Speaker 1>the judge didn't believe at the time. Yeah, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if that was just a little bit of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>psychological warfare or up the up the drama. There was

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<v Speaker 1>no way as far as at least as far as

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<v Speaker 1>I was concerned that they weren't going to be bringing

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<v Speaker 1>on Gates. He's the star witness. They could probably make

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<v Speaker 1>their case without them. They certainly planned the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>prosecuting both of these individuals without having the other one,

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<v Speaker 1>so they have enough. But it's just I think they've

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<v Speaker 1>done a pretty good job through the initial witnesses of

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<v Speaker 1>demonstrating that Manafort knew what he was doing. Manafort was

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<v Speaker 1>the one setting of the invoices, Manafort was the one

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<v Speaker 1>using wire transfers. The idea that this was all Rick

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<v Speaker 1>Gates and Maniport was unaware. Just isn't Ben a fly?

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<v Speaker 1>What do you mean? We had a Bloomberg News story

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<v Speaker 1>out today about what the deep roots of Trump's hostility

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<v Speaker 1>toward Mueller might be, even before the the initial you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the investigation um where he he he interviewed him to

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<v Speaker 1>be the FBI director. What do you make of that

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<v Speaker 1>as a possible sort of motive. Yeah, I saw that.

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<v Speaker 1>I think if if the fact that's where the President's

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<v Speaker 1>thinking is, I think he's just you know, pulling it

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<v Speaker 1>whatever strand and straw he can to try to claim

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<v Speaker 1>to some type of bias, some type of conflict. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry that what they're pointing to, what Rudy gian Giuliani

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<v Speaker 1>keeps referencing with the President's referencing, that's just a way

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<v Speaker 1>too thin of a read on which to hang this hat.

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<v Speaker 1>The idea that there was a dispute over the golf

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<v Speaker 1>fees seven years ago. That's not going to be enough

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<v Speaker 1>to can flick Mueller out. Nor is the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>he was interviewed for the job that he had once

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<v Speaker 1>held for twelve years. So what this is why the

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<v Speaker 1>d O j f S people looked at Mueller and

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<v Speaker 1>screened him before he took over the role of special counsel.

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<v Speaker 1>He was already cleared for that. Nothing else is come

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<v Speaker 1>up and that's simply not how to COMPLI The interest

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<v Speaker 1>will work, all right, Thanks so much, Brad. As always,

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<v Speaker 1>that's Brad Moss. He's a partner at Mark Zaid. And

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<v Speaker 1>of course the trial will continue tomorrow. It's expected to

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<v Speaker 1>be about three weeks, but at the pace it's going,

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<v Speaker 1>who knows, it could be even shorter. Coming up on Bloomberg, Politics, policy,

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<v Speaker 1>power and law. Rick Scott blankets Florida with campaign ads

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<v Speaker 1>as he tries to unsee Democratic senator Bill Nelson. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>look at the numbers and the latest polls to see

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening in Florida with that important seat. This is Bloomberg. Yesterday,

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<v Speaker 1>the Trump administration took another step in its efforts to

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<v Speaker 1>chip away at President Obama's environmental policies. It proposed suspending

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<v Speaker 1>required increases in vehicle vehicle fuel efficiency standards after and

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<v Speaker 1>to limit California's ability to limit greenhouse gas emissions. Speaking yesterday, yesterday,

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<v Speaker 1>excuse me, White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders defended the actions.

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<v Speaker 1>What the e p A released yesterday was a notice

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<v Speaker 1>of proposed rule making, not a final rule. The notice

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<v Speaker 1>lays out a series of options for how to go

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<v Speaker 1>forward with CAFE standards, and the notice asked for comments

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<v Speaker 1>on the range of options. We're simply opening it up

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<v Speaker 1>for a comment period, and we'll make a final decision

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<v Speaker 1>at the end of that. Jennifer Deloe is Bloomberg News

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<v Speaker 1>environmental and energy regulation reporters. She joins us Now for

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<v Speaker 1>more on this story in our Bloomberg One Studios. So, Jen,

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<v Speaker 1>what is the process now? Well, right now, we're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at a public comment period, frankly, for the next sixty days.

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<v Speaker 1>At which point stakeholders, you know, environmentalists, automakers, the general

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<v Speaker 1>public will weigh in, give their ideas and feedback back

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<v Speaker 1>to the administration, and then it will be many months

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<v Speaker 1>that we'll see the administration negotiating with automakers, with California

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<v Speaker 1>regulators and others, trying to get to a final proposal.

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<v Speaker 1>We could see at the very end of this year

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<v Speaker 1>or more likely early next year. Does that trouble car makers?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that is a long process and they have

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<v Speaker 1>to plan as to how they build these cars and

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<v Speaker 1>what sort of standards they need to meet. Our reporting

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<v Speaker 1>indicates that, you know, automakers are concerned about uncertainty generally. UH.

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<v Speaker 1>It's important to to look at how we got to

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<v Speaker 1>this point. Automakers, frankly, UH to some degree, started this process.

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<v Speaker 1>They asked the Trump administration to revisit the issue and UH,

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<v Speaker 1>and now that Trump administration has UH, they are most

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<v Speaker 1>concerned about a prolonged legal battle with California and other

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<v Speaker 1>states over the aggressiveness and the stringency of these standards.

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<v Speaker 1>That could delay, you know, a final plan next year

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<v Speaker 1>from really taking effect and really extends the uncertainty around

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<v Speaker 1>this for years. As they really need to be making

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<v Speaker 1>cars to meet these standards now, and doesn't this get

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<v Speaker 1>to the fact that they don't. They can't build two

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<v Speaker 1>separate types of cars, one for California and states that

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<v Speaker 1>similarly are tough on emission standards, and then one model

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<v Speaker 1>for the rest of the country. Exactly. So, for years,

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<v Speaker 1>actually decades, California has had the authority and the ability

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<v Speaker 1>to set its own rules on air pollution and UH,

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<v Speaker 1>and that, frankly, as the most populous state, that has

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<v Speaker 1>meant that it's effectively been in the driver's seat. It's

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<v Speaker 1>standards tend to encourage the federal government to follow along.

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<v Speaker 1>Other states follow California's requirements. UH, they set a benchmark

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<v Speaker 1>and UH. In the Adbomit administration, when these UH rules

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<v Speaker 1>were put into place, the administration worked with California and

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<v Speaker 1>with automakers to develop one harmonized program so that you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have these dueling standards. The concern here from automakers

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<v Speaker 1>is that because the administration is going after California's ability

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<v Speaker 1>to set its own tail pipe emission standards, that you

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<v Speaker 1>could see two different standards emerging, and that of course

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<v Speaker 1>would be tricky. UH. I mean, in some cases it

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<v Speaker 1>would be a significant economic blow. Yeah, I was gonna

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<v Speaker 1>ask why he was going after California specifically, But there

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<v Speaker 1>are other states too that are kind of following California's lead.

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<v Speaker 1>Are they at risk? Is going to target exactly? So

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<v Speaker 1>we had a pretty clear indication of how they felt

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Yesterday, those states, along with some others uh

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen in total, vowed to challenge the Trump administration's plan

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<v Speaker 1>if it's finalized in in its current form. Uh. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>they have a vested interest in preserving essentially the California

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<v Speaker 1>model and the California standards since they follow them, and

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<v Speaker 1>they've indicated they're going to fight this where it has

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<v Speaker 1>big oil been in all of this. It's interesting you

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't necessarily hear them talking about it too terribly much

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<v Speaker 1>in public, but they have been working behind the scenes

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<v Speaker 1>in favor of the uh some more so, some companies

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<v Speaker 1>more so than others. Refiners, uh, sometimes more than oil producers. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>We uh. We have reporting that you know, they've met

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<v Speaker 1>with administration officials. Members of these companies and and their

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<v Speaker 1>leading trade groups have met with administration officials to push

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<v Speaker 1>this and and it's really no surprise, I mean, this

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<v Speaker 1>would increase oil demand domestically. Uh, the government estimates that

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<v Speaker 1>it would be some five hundred thousand additional barrels of

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<v Speaker 1>demand in the early twenty thirties. That's per day that

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<v Speaker 1>would result from this program. So you know that that's

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<v Speaker 1>not chump change. It's it's a small amount in a

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<v Speaker 1>in a global market, but it's not it's not insignificant

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<v Speaker 1>to the oil industry, which is why they're quietly lobbying

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<v Speaker 1>behind the scenes on this. You know, Jennet, it occurs

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<v Speaker 1>to me as this whole other industry that exists now

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.880
<v Speaker 1>because of lower pollution in different standards, electric vehicles are

0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 1>not going to go anywhere. There are other h you know,

0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.959
<v Speaker 1>parts of the industry as well to that provided a

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.560
<v Speaker 1>traction or pushback against the rollbacks, which is I think

0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.760
<v Speaker 1>that's a proper sentence. But as that appropriate type of pushback,

0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.679
<v Speaker 1>are they speaking up? You know, electric vehicles, as you noted,

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, they're they're here to stay elsewhere in the world.

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.040
<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's unclear you know, their long term

0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 1>status in the United States, but you know, around the

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.480
<v Speaker 1>world you have government policies that encourage their development in

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 1>places like China and major cities in Europe um that

0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.319
<v Speaker 1>that are contemplating in some cases banning combustion engines altogether.

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.320
<v Speaker 1>So you know that global pressure means that automakers need

0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.679
<v Speaker 1>electric vehicles to gain more traction. In the United States

0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.440
<v Speaker 1>here they're just one percent of new auto sales right now.

0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 1>So what came makers don't want our our unrealistic mandates

0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.040
<v Speaker 1>that force them to sell these electrics at a huge

0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 1>loss for years, uh in the United States just to

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.840
<v Speaker 1>get more traction. They really would like to see a

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 1>program that rewards them in the United States and encourages

0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.800
<v Speaker 1>their development here since they're having to sell them around

0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.800
<v Speaker 1>the world intense seconds. What's the administration's official reason for

0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.720
<v Speaker 1>making this making these changes? Well, they say that the

0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 1>proposal would lower the cost of new cars, and because

0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.520
<v Speaker 1>it does that, it gets people buying new cars that

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.040
<v Speaker 1>are safer and not holding onto older, clunky or less

0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 1>safe models. Okay, Jennifer Gloway, Bloomberg News Environmental and Energy

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 1>regulation reporter, thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.480
<v Speaker 1>You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts,

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.840
<v Speaker 1>SoundCloud and on Bloomberg dot Com slash podcast. I'm June

0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 1>Bolso this is Bloomberg,