WEBVTT - Ep 17 Oh No Tetrodo: Crossover w/ TBOSP 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:05.360 Hi, I'm erin Welsh and I'm Aaron Alman Updike And this. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.119 Is this Podcast Will Kill You crossover edition with the 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.039 Biology of Superheroes podcast. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.840 This is actually part two of a crossover in which 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:20.280 we're going to talk about zombie. In the first episode, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.000 which was released on Halloween, we joined Shane Campbell Stayton 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.440 and Arian Darby of the Biology of Superheroes podcast to 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.640 talk all things zombies. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.239 You guys should definitely go check out that episode. You 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.239 can find it at the Biology of Superheroes podcast on 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.760 whatever platform you listen to your podcasts. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.120 And this week we're so excited to be joined by 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.680 Shane to take a deeper dive into the physiology, history, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:01:00.240 and evolutionary biology of zombies. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.160 Do you want to introduce yourself, Shane, Yeah, it's. 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.119 Good to be here. I'm Shane Campbell Stateon and I 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.240 am an evolutionary biologist. 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.679 Hey, yes, doctor Campbell Stateon. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:24.040 Please please remember it. 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.480 Also the host of your own amazing podcast tell us 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:24.920 about It. 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.080 Yeah, we do our thing, so, host of the Biology 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.760 of Superheroes podcast. Yeah. So we use a lot of 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.640 you know, science fiction, and use science fiction basically as 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:41.080 a way to you know, to talk about biology, evolution, physiology, 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.400 so on and so forth. So merging the nerd multiverse 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:44.880 over here. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.920 I love it, Yes, and definitely everyone check it out. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:50.920 It's an amazing podcast. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:57.000 Yeah, it's fantastic. It's really fun. We've been waiting to 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.520 do this crossover since before we even started our podcast. 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:03.240 Oh yeah, it's been like on the books. 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:05.560 It has been a long time coming, isn't it. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:07.160 Yeah. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:12.880 Okay, so before we jump into that, we've got some 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:17.160 important business to take care of. Yeah, we do our quarantining. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:19.880 What are we drinking this week? 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.680 This week we're drinking Rum for your Life. 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.440 And it's called that because guess what it has in it? 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.040 Rum and more rum. 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.960 It has so much more rum. 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.519 So we will post the entire recipe on all of 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.320 our social media as well as our place Barrita for 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:43.200 this episode. 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.880 Absolutely you can find us at tpwk Y on Twitter 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.480 and this podcast will kill you on Instagram and Facebook. 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.400 Let's let's get we'll move on. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:03:14.280 Okay, all right, all. 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:22.359 Right, So today we are talking about zombies and basically 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.480 sort of the biological basis for whether zombification can happen 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.240 via tatrota toxin. And then Shane is going to hit 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:35.600 us with some expertise on the evolutionary history of tatroda toxin. 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.280 And I don't know anything about it yet, so I'm 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.520 really excited because I think it's super cool. Same, I 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:42.520 know it's going to be super cool. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:43.920 I should say, well. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:45.880 We'll see how cool it is when I'm done. 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.280 The coolest. Everyone's going to want to become a marine 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:51.960 biologist after this episode. 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.880 Yeah, I'm going to take you through the cultural history 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.240 of the zombie, tracing the origins of the modern zombie 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.120 back to it's religious and spiritual roots. And we're going 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.680 to have a blast because, as we talked about, this 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.680 is one of our favorite topics all of us. Yeah, 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:13.560 and first I want to ask you something. Have you, 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.600 either of you secretly ever wanted to be in a 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:25.240 zombie apocalypse to maybe see how you'd react or whether 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:26.680 you'd be the first to die. 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.640 I feel like this is a conversation that I used 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.960 to have, like back in college. You know, It's like 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.160 one of those like two am conversations. Yeah, man, do 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:40.039 you think you would be able to survive the zombie apocalypse? Yeah? Man, Yeah, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.520 I totally get a machete and this and that, and 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:44.520 I go up into the mountains and so on. So 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.080 you know, meanwhile, you know, at that time, I had 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.479 like barely like slept outside, you know, but it's like 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.560 super confident that I'd be able to survive the zombie apocalypse. 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:55.719 Yeah. 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.120 Yeah, I feel like it's it's human nature to sort 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.279 of think about the end of days scenarios. And yeah, 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.640 I think it's safe to say that we've all watched 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.039 or read our fair share of zombie movies, shows, books, comics, 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.640 et cetera. Because we're nerds nerds, But I don't think 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.480 zombies are necessarily nerdy, are. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.400 They, Shane, you're the expert. 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.039 Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna put them up as nerdy. They're 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.000 pretty nerd cool. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:23.880 Well, I like being a nerd anyway. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.240 Yeah, ain't nothing wrong with that. I mean to own 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:27.640 the nerds. 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:28.320 Yeah exactly. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.599 So, now that we are self proclaimed zombie experts, I 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.960 want to ask you guys what you see as them 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.760 as the unifying characteristics of zombies or zombies as they 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.280 are presented today, great questions to do a little list. 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:47.279 I feel like they have to be they have to 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:51.080 be after humans, so they've got to be like aggressive 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:55.640 in some way after Okay, not like human no, no, no, 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.640 coming after you for some reason. 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:03.919 Okay, So driven by human flesh, yes, okay, right, Yeah, I. 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.279 Mean I think there's a typical sort of mangled appearance 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.720 one way or the other, right, either you know, if 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.200 you're talking about the actual walking dead or if you're 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.120 talking about the infected yea, you know there are you know, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.279 there's typically a you know, very like run down, like 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:23.360 dirty clothes, bloody thing happening once you turn into a zombie. Yeah, 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.520 you you start to you know, you don't worry about 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.960 taking a shower and washing your clothes anymore. Here preoccupied 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.000 by brains in general, biting related activities. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.839 Yeah, And I do think the whole transmitted by bite thing, 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:42.520 it's like it's become pretty classic, right, I'm not opposed 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.000 to it, I'll say that much. I'm not opposed to 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:45.480 that idea. 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.360 I mean, I haven't I can't think of a modern 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.440 zombie movie that doesn't have where a bite from a 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:57.040 zombie turns you into a zombi or yeah, agreed, Yeah, 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:02.680 so okay, so we have that they're mangled dead, undead, 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.080 they eat human flesh. That's that's the sole thing that 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.760 they're driven by. Yeah, and they're infectious or being a 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.760 zombie is infectious for sure. So this the zombie that 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.000 we just that we just described, is this modern zombie 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.320 which was born in nineteen sixty eight when Night of 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.680 the Living Dead was released, which is kind of funny actually, 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.240 considering that the word zombie is never used in the movie. 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.920 Yeah, but that's so typical, and I feel like all 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.840 zombie movies now do that because they did that, and 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.760 it really bothers me. Like in Walking Dead, why can't 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.200 they just call them zombie? What do they call them 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.640 the walkers, the blah blah blah. 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:48.240 Walker or I think it depends on the group, Like 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.640 every sort of group that runs around has their own 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:51.280 name for it. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.320 Which is so unrealistic. Bro, everyone knows it's a freaking zombie. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.840 Well so I think. I think in later, later movies 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.080 in between that time, they were called zombies and a 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.840 lot of them so annoys me. Well, it was actually 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.240 so George Romeiro only used the terms like ghouls or 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.560 flesh eaters when he made this movie, and he didn't 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.760 really encounter the term zombie until critics started using it 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.280 when describing the film, So it was really only then 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:20.320 when he was like, oh, these ares like and he 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:25.720 had taken clearly from zombie fictions. But I think it 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.840 sort of he put two and two together after the fact. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.280 So he didn't know he was making the zombie movie 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:32.840 until after it was already made. 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.360 Well, no, I don't think that's necessarily true. I just 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.880 don't know if he would have called them zombies or 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.400 a brand new creature, because he did definitely take from 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.400 zombie fascinating films. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.000 Okay, so okay, So if. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.360 You haven't seen the movie, which Aaron and I just 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:53.440 watched it yesterday for research, the plot revolves around a 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.439 group of people hiding out in a house somewhere in 0:08:55.480 --> 0:09:00.559 Pennsylvania as reanimated corpses due to a radiation accident around 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:05.760 the house. This movie effectively began or created an entire 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.640 new subgenre of horror movie. Romero and his co writer 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.559 John Russo drew from a bunch of sources, as I mentioned, 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.400 for inspiration, including a zombie called White Zombie, which I'll 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.400 talk more about later, and I am legend the book 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.800 by Richard Matheson about a plague of vampires. But Night 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.680 of the Living Dead was something really brand new in 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.520 many ways. This was the first movie to depict zombies 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:35.000 as flesh eating, as outnumbering people, as not controlled by 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:40.960 an outside force, as being contagious, and a government struggling 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.760 to maintain control. This was a far cry from the 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.240 early depictions of zombies and Hollywood movies. This movie, in 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.600 many zombie movies that followed, used zombies as a metaphor 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.880 for whatever was really threatening society or humanity, such as 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.439 unchecked consumerism, the violence of Vietnam War or the resistance 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:03.120 against America, the threat of nuclear war, racial inequality, and 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.120 so on. In modern zombie movies, zombies are used to 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.520 expose the true nature of humanity. How are people going 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.840 to react in a crisis. And it's not just using 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:19.040 zombies as this apocalyptic backdrop. The zombies themselves are scary 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.960 because they occupy this uncanny valley where the familiar appearance 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.160 of your neighbors or friends or spouse or child suddenly 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.720 becomes horrifying when they're trying to eat your brains all 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:30.240 of a sudden. 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.679 Yeah, then you have to shoot them in the head. 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.440 Yeah, I feel it's a pretty common trope. Right, There's 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.480 always that moment where you know there's a zombie horde 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.600 and they're trying to get away, and then you see 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.760 the face in the hoard that's you know, your best 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.360 friend or you know the person who you used to love, 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:51.040 and you're like, oh, but but Susie, how could And 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.000 then Susie like chomps down on your jugular and then. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:55.040 Yeah, you're done. 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.200 Yeah so, and all of these characteristics of modern zombie 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.880 movies have the end result of making you scared of zombies, 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.920 not of becoming a zombie. So you're more scared of 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.920 the zombies attacking you rather than of actually becoming one. 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:11.720 I feel interesting. 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.840 So before Night of the Living Dead, though the perception 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.240 of zombies in Western culture was totally different, the modern 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.720 zombie actually has its roots in Haiti. And to understand 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.480 how the Haitian zombie was warped and misappropriated into what 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.680 we know as a zombie today, we have to go 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.240 back a bit to the history of Haiti itself. Also, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.600 I just want to say that I'm totally out of 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.360 my depth here and I'm probably gonna miss some stuff, 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:38.960 but I'm gonna do the best I can, So if 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:41.720 there are any corrections, please. 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.480 Way yeah, Okay. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:54.560 At the beginning, Christopher Columbus Great Guy y Well hand 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.480 it on the island of Hispaniola, which Haiti is the 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.400 western third of Hispaniola, which with the eastern two third 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.360 being the Dominican Republic. During his first trans oceanic voyage 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.079 in fourteen ninety two, as you can imagine, he instantly 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.200 claimed it for Spain, set up camps there, and introduced 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.520 diseases that led to nearly the entire indigenous population of 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.680 Taino and Arouak being wiped out. 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.559 Check our smallpox episode three if you are interested in more. 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.600 Uh huh, and with many of the rest of the 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:29.600 indigenous population being enslaved. Over the next couple of centuries, French, 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.520 English and Dutch pirates set up bases on the remote 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.880 western and northern coast of Hispaniola, which grew as a 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.920 trading hub throughout the sixteen hundreds while Spanish control lessened. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.360 In the early seventeen hundreds, the French had taken control 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.959 of the western part, which would later become Haiti. They 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.959 ramped up export and production, and by the mid seventeen 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.160 hundred the small piece of land was responsible for producing 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.960 sixty percent of the world's coffee whoa yeah, and more 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.280 sugar than all the British Caribbean possessions quote unquote combined. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.160 WHOA, dude, Yeah, I didn't know any of that. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.160 Can you guess how it got to be so productive? Uh? 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.280 Slave labor, unbelievable amounts of slave labor. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:14.600 Yeah. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.360 Slaves on these plantations were treated so terribly and forced 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.400 to live under such horrific conditions that at least seventeen 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.640 thousand slaves died each year. Whoa, and the death rate 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:30.640 outpassed the birth rate eight percent to one percent. Oh 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:35.400 my god, it's yeah. Every year the number of people 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.240 enslaved and taken from Africa to work in the French 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.559 colony increased, with around forty thousand slaves brought over every 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.680 year in the years leading up to the Haitian Revolution. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.720 On the eve of the revolution, thirty two thousand white 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:55.080 colonists ruled over nearly five hundred thousand slaves, the majority 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.079 of which were born in Africa, like three quarters. 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.280 Whoa, dude, So they killed off everyone who lived there, 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.319 and then they just kept shipping over more human beings 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:05.840 that they just murdered. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.960 Well, seventeen ninety one comes around, and this marks the 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.360 start of a twelve year revolution that would lead to 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.080 the formation of an independent Haiti, which was huge. This 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:22.440 was the second oldest independent nation in the Western hemisphere. 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.000 WHOA yeah, tell me the year again. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.200 Seventeen ninety one marks the beginning. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:28.240 Of that revolution, thank you. 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.640 So I talked a little bit actually about the Haitian 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.440 Revolution in our episode on yellow fever. Oh, and the 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.680 possible but debated role that that yellow fever played in 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:43.040 destroying French troops when trying to quash the rebellion. But so, 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.800 the takeaway from all of this is that the free 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.040 country of Haiti was largely composed of people who were 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.880 born in Africa and had fought very hard for their freedom. 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.520 In the decades leading up to the revolution, a religion 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:59.520 had taken shape to unify everyone, which drew heavily from 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.080 summer reigions in West Africa, including the fun people living 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.800 in the area we call Benin, the Yoruba people in Nigeria, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.080 and the Congo peoples in Angola and Basayer. And also 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:16.280 this religion incorporated elements of Catholicism and indigenous Taino beliefs 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.560 and practices. WHOA yeah. So it was really kind of 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:24.280 this very interesting mix. And after the revolution, the US 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.840 and Europe effectively cut contact with Haiti. They were like, nope, 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.640 you're on your own, and they prevented trade from happening. 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.920 And they also didn't allow any Catholic priests to go 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.760 to the country, which the French had set up as 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.800 a Catholic colony. So, as a result, Haitian culture is 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:46.320 really strongly influenced by traditions and practices directly from different 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:51.160 African cultures, without this sustained colonial presence quashing these influences 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.359 the way some other Caribbean nations were Wow. 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:55.880 Yeah. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:02.560 So this religion, or more accurately, experience continued to develop 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.680 and is known as as vodu to those outside of it. 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.640 So if you are someone who practices vodu, you don't 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.680 call it vodu. It's just your spiritual experience. It's serving 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.520 the spirits. I'm not going to go into any real 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.400 details of vodu because there are many great resources for that, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.360 me not being one of them, but I will say 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.240 that vodu is this is this spiritual system focused on 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:33.480 healing and spirituality. Zombies or zombification are not a part 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.720 of vodu as it is practiced. Rather, zombie making is 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.280 considered a folk religious practice that derives from vodu, but 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.880 isn't a part of it, okay, So I just wanted 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.480 to make that clear. So what is a zombie then? 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.000 In Haitian culture? Great question. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.120 I love that asked and answered and complimented. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:03.280 Great it self compliments. Well, the word zombie probably came 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.160 from the West African and Congo words in zabie in zombie, 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.399 which is god or spirit of a dead person, and zombie, 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.560 which means fetish. A zombie is created by a boko, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.560 which is basically a priest who practices sorcery. There are 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.720 two types of zombies. One is a zombie astrol, which 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.520 is the soul of a deceased person that the boko 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.600 can use to enhance his powers, and the other is 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.840 the one that we are more familiar with, the zombie 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.560 of flesh. This corporeal zombie is one who has either 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.480 been raised from the dead or is made to appear 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:42.959 dead and then awakened or reanimated by a boko. So 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.200 this zombie flesh has no will and is under complete 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.919 control by the bokhor who uses the zombie to do 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:53.080 his bidding, which often involves laboring in some way, and 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.359 so the threat of Haitian zombification is different than this 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.800 modern zombification as in the movies. The loss of a 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.440 being forced to work against your will, loss of contact 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.520 with family and loved ones. These are the consequences of 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.480 becoming a Haitian zombie, which makes sense for a country 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.359 with such a horrific history of slavery. In contrast with 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.080 the modern zombie, becoming a Haitian zombie is scarier than 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.960 the zombie itself, So you're more scared of becoming a 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:21.520 zombie than you are of the zombie. 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.600 Right, that does make sense. Yeah, I now understand how 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.240 why you made that distinction earlier because I was like, 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.560 I don't want to become a zombie because then you die. 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:38.760 But now it makes more so how did the modern 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:43.560 zombie evolve from this? Well? In characteristic manifest destiny form, 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:48.200 the US invaded unoccupied Haiti from nineteen fifteen to nineteen 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:54.480 thirty four. Classic During the occupation, a bunch of ethnographers 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.720 and writers, including Zora Neil Hurston, who wrote one of 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.720 the first books on Vhoto and Haitian culture, came to 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:06.760 Haiti and exported stories of zombies. Many were very sensationalized, 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.960 which kind of gave rise to this like fear and 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:14.600 otherness of vodoo in US culture and Western culture in general. 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.560 One of these stories was by a man named William Seabrook, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.840 who wrote a sensationalist book called The Magic Island. In 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.920 one chapter, Seabrook describes seeing a zombie master controlling a 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.640 group of zombies to labor for free. This was turned 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:34.439 into a movie called White Zombie, which has all kinds 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.399 of racist and sexist I guess, not really undertones, like 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:45.320 overtones overtones, yes, sorry, so yeah. In White Zombie, the 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.080 zombies are catatonic and completely under control of the bocort, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.359 and this was the prevailing image of zombies in Western 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.439 culture until Romero changed the game with Knight of the 0:19:55.440 --> 0:20:01.560 Living Dead. Interesting, we're still though a piece of the puzzle, 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.800 which is the how of a zombie? So what is 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.320 the medical basis for zombification? Yeah, bro, and I think 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.960 it's also just an in passing. We're thinking about why 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.640 researchers and I'm including us in this, feel the need 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:21.120 to demystify some cultural or spiritual practices to reduce them 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.239 to compounds or chemicals or oh well, this happens. This 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.600 is how it can happen in reality, you know, And 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.399 that's just something to kind of I wanted to just 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.600 say to think about because it was kind of after 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.680 reading Wade Davis's books, I was like, why are you 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:36.240 why why? 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:37.560 Yeah, that's a good question. 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:44.120 Okay, So that aside. In general, back to zombies, there 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.520 are two basic ideas as to how zombies are created. 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:49.000 Okay, give them to me, okay. 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.560 One basically says this is Haitian zombies. One basically says 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.560 that zombies are created through spiritual belief and that often 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:01.600 so called zombies are cases of mental illness and deprivation. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.080 The other focuses more on the medical basis of zombification. 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.560 Belonging to the second category is Wade Davis. As a 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.600 grad student, WAYE. Davis went down to Haiti in the 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:18.080 nineteen eighties seeking to uncover the truth about zombification, in 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.240 particular whether it exists at all and whether there was 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.399 a plant or animal based compound that can actually cause 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:28.560 a zombie like state in people. In his journeys, he 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.159 came across the story of a man whose name I 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.200 will definitely mess up the pronunciation of Clervius Narses. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:37.280 I don't know you. 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:42.439 Tried who had emerged after years sixteen years actually of 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.480 allegedly being kept in a zombie like state and forced 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.399 to work. And he had been confirmed to have died 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.120 and been buried. So this was like nineteen sixty two, 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.159 I think is when he was buried and then only 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.000 to emerge sixteen years later. 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.000 Wait, he died and was buried in sixteen years later 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:03.640 he came up. 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:08.600 No, sixteen years later he sort of re emerged into society. 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.560 Society got it? Okay, he wasn't buried for sixteen years? No, no, no, no, 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:17.080 because I would call the sm well anyway. 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.240 So Davis sought to find out how this could have happened, 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.200 and he was able to gain access to various quote 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.800 zombie powders and to observe their preparation. The contents of 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.439 these powders varied region by region, but he found that 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.560 a few ingredients were always present, among them human remains, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:38.639 cane toad, the hyla tree frog, and various species of 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:43.960 pufferfish puffle fish who say. In examining each of these, 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:47.920 he found one likely candidate for making someone appear dead, 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.000 the pufferfish, which contains a compound known as to trottoxin. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.320 Davis alleged that this toxin, when given to the intended zombie, 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.480 could imitate death, so that the person could be buried 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.320 and then dug up and held under control by the 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:10.200 use of other compounds, including the datura plant. Aaron, please 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.359 tell us how to tret to talxin works and whether 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.680 it is the true zombie powder. 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:17.240 I love to. 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:36.360 I'm excited for this part because I avoided it. 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.560 And I was like, oh great, then let me tell 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.720 you about it. To trot to toxin. 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:42.320 Okay. 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.879 The thing is, as I started researching this, I was like, 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:49.840 we already did this. We've already done this episode. It's 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:55.800 called crossover with crossover. Yes, you already knew the answer. Yes, 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:59.280 if you haven't yet listened to our crossover episode with 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:03.040 Matt Candas of in Defensive Plants, where we discuss Monk's 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:08.240 Hood aka Wolf'spin, then go listen to that. You'll probably 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.800 like it because we're talking about something that has a 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:16.960