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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt, my name is

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul. Mission control decands, most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. I'm going to start

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Speaker 1: out with with something very, very honest, and it's one

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Speaker 1: of the great commonalities of our species, is this people

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Speaker 1: doc Whether due to accident, injury, disease, or crime, the

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Speaker 1: unexpected loss of a loved one is one of the

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Speaker 1: most harrowing events in human experience. It doesn't matter who

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Speaker 1: you are, prince, a pauper. We love people, and at

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Speaker 1: some point they or we are gone. And when people

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Speaker 1: are struggling in the wake of these these terrible, indescribable tragedies,

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Speaker 1: we often find ourselves desperately searching for answers. You know,

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Speaker 1: uh questions haunt us. Was there something I could have

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Speaker 1: done differently? We might ask? Or out of all of

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Speaker 1: the billions of people in the world. Why was my child,

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Speaker 1: my partner, my parents, or my friend the one to

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Speaker 1: pass away? And this intense pain worsens when survivors are

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Speaker 1: left with missing pieces to their stories. You know, we

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Speaker 1: we always hear about we always hear about legal proceedings

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Speaker 1: maybe for a disappearance or a crime or murder that

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Speaker 1: that go on for years or decades after the event.

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Speaker 1: And in many ways it's driven by uh surviving family

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Speaker 1: members or loved ones, not because they believe this will somehow,

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Speaker 1: you know, bring someone back. It's because the the experience

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Speaker 1: of closure is so much better than the experience of

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Speaker 1: wondering what happened to a child or a spouse or

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Speaker 1: a loved one. But then there's this other chilling situation,

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Speaker 1: which is what do you do when authorities have ruled

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Speaker 1: the death of a loved when accidental, but you feel

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Speaker 1: they got it wrong. I mean, we've we've seen examples

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Speaker 1: of that, and we know at least we can't speak

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Speaker 1: for every country, but we know that here in the

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Speaker 1: US there is a clear and systemic problem with things

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Speaker 1: being um with, with causes of death being misidentified right

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Speaker 1: or with some kind of malfunction in the justice system

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Speaker 1: leading to the wrong person being convicted of a crime.

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Speaker 1: The real criminal walks away and they get caught, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: four assaults, five murders later. Yeah, Well, we also know

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Speaker 1: there are real problems within institutions where sometimes and this

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Speaker 1: is certainly not true of all cases, and this is

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Speaker 1: certainly not speaking ill of any individual out there who

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Speaker 1: may be listening or who is working in any of

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Speaker 1: these fields, but sometimes it is more beneficial to have

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Speaker 1: a let's say, a case be classified one way rather

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Speaker 1: than the other. That will prevent a major investigation from occurring,

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Speaker 1: because as far as the authorities are concerned, that closes

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Speaker 1: the book on it. They can devote resources elsewhere. And

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Speaker 1: we all know that law enforcement agencies are often quite

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Speaker 1: strapped for resources, and every agency is every we all,

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Speaker 1: all human beings out here, are trying to do the

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Speaker 1: best we can with what we have, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that speaks to most of us, especially you're listening,

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Speaker 1: because I'm you're you're awesome. Whoever overachievers? Yeah, well, I

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Speaker 1: mean we It's just the nature of large systems like

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Speaker 1: that sometimes you have to you have to at least

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Speaker 1: attempt to make it function at its highest level. And

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Speaker 1: to do that you have to pick and choose basically

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Speaker 1: what priorities are. And by its very nature, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying it's inherently callous, but it has to take a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of a clinical approach to these things

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Speaker 1: then would be taken on the family side, which is

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Speaker 1: obviously a much more personal and emotional approach to this

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Speaker 1: idea of closure. So while the book might be closed

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Speaker 1: on a case as far as law enforcement is concerned,

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Speaker 1: that would be far from the case if a family

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Speaker 1: member thinks they got something a little off. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: all of this is doesn't change the way those family

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Speaker 1: members or those loved ones feel and what they believe.

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Speaker 1: None of this, none of the realities change the way

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Speaker 1: that experience at that level. Right, it makes We can

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Speaker 1: all think of specific cases where the where in law enforcement, municipal,

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Speaker 1: maybe even on federal level, said Okay, we've figured out

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Speaker 1: what happened, is what happened in the family? UH says no,

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Speaker 1: this is not a satisfactory explanation. It's a matter of fact.

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Speaker 1: In the past, we've covered many examples of this, UH,

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Speaker 1: often with journalists who found something they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know, and then later somehow died and before we

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Speaker 1: go on. You know, this reminds me. I recently rewatched

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Speaker 1: some clips of one of your favorite shows, Matt, The Wire.

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Speaker 1: I believe it is everybody's favorite show. Okay, right, one

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Speaker 1: of the best shows then, right, uh, backstory, Matt introduced

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Speaker 1: me to The Wire. So we would not have Luther

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Speaker 1: if we didn't have The Wire. Okay, that's also true,

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Speaker 1: that's all. We also wouldn't have Macavity, and that the

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Speaker 1: latest iteration of Cats, which is a thing of monstrosity

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Speaker 1: and beauty, and then everyone should experience it for themselves,

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Speaker 1: just putting that out. Yeah, I saw it to it,

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Speaker 1: and I think it is the true spiritual successor to

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Speaker 1: The Wire. It's basically the last season of The Wire,

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Speaker 1: singer Bell pirouetting around in a weird anthropomorphic g I

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Speaker 1: Cats suit with ripped abs. Yeah yeah. In in the

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Speaker 1: Why before the Cats season of The Wire, you guys

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Speaker 1: will recall there was a there was a ongoing plot

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Speaker 1: and I think maybe season four slight spoiler alert, you

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Speaker 1: mean with the vacants where there were bodies that were

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Speaker 1: just kind of disappearing, and I think they're the newspaper

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Speaker 1: essentially created a narrative of their own to explain this. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: full spoiler alert. Now McNulty is involved anties, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and is creating essentially or or working with this narrative, right,

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Speaker 1: the idea of creating a sort of false narrative to

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Speaker 1: get some more resources put into solving some of these murders.

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Speaker 1: Right right, right now that I think about it, I

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Speaker 1: believe it was season five, McNulty, one of the main

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Speaker 1: characters full spoiler alert, creates a serial killer essentially and

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Speaker 1: does this by working with the press, and he's they're

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Speaker 1: getting they're they're essentially getting more funding through doing this.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that I think struck a lot of

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Speaker 1: people about that about that move was that The Wire

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Speaker 1: had always been praised for its realism, and so for

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Speaker 1: something like that to occur in a very grounded show,

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Speaker 1: the implication is that this happens, you know what I mean? Now,

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Speaker 1: of course, critics didn't universally love that plot line, but

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Speaker 1: it shows us how how common this debate is, this

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Speaker 1: um idea that there might be some greater pattern to

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Speaker 1: the tragedy that surrounds us. Here are the facts. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: there are no shortages of real life cases not on

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Speaker 1: the Wire. Real life cases wherein parents or uh partners

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Speaker 1: of a deceased individual are certain that authorities, through either incompetence,

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Speaker 1: in difference, or even corruption, have misidentified a cause of death,

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Speaker 1: essentially that they've ruled a homicide an accident. And over

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Speaker 1: recent decades in the US, we've seen hundreds of of

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Speaker 1: these stories. One that still stays with me that I've

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Speaker 1: been doing some outside research on is the the Kendrick

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Speaker 1: Johnson case in Valdosta, Georgia. That's the basketball player, the

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Speaker 1: high school kid who was who was found dead rolled

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Speaker 1: up in the rolled up in a Jim Matt Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and his parents say that, you know, bullies killed or

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Speaker 1: accidentally killed him, and the authorities argue otherwise, they say

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Speaker 1: accidentally killed himself. Story for another day. Maybe maybe we'll

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Speaker 1: do a whole podcast series on them one day. But

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Speaker 1: this might surprise some of us in the audience. Also,

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Speaker 1: over the recent decades, we've seen one surprising source of

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Speaker 1: controversy for these debates over accident versus homicide, and it

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Speaker 1: comes in the case of drown which is an unpleasant

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Speaker 1: way to go, of course it really is. But I

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Speaker 1: do think it's surprising that you know, when you would

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Speaker 1: think of accidental death versus homicide, you would think of

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Speaker 1: things like maybe, uh, firearm related deaths. Yeah, exactly, Well

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Speaker 1: that's not not the case. Um. In this country, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of fairly large bodies of water and

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Speaker 1: smaller ones too. They're everywhere water, it's everywhere, raging rivers,

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Speaker 1: you know, they they are UM. And people every year die, uh,

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Speaker 1: whether accidentally or not accidentally in these bodies of water,

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Speaker 1: and to a lot of people. According to the CDC

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Speaker 1: from two thousand five, there were an average of three thousand,

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Speaker 1: five hundred and thirty six fatal unintentional drownings. Um. And

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Speaker 1: those were not related to boating and no in know,

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Speaker 1: so not like drinking and voting and that kind of thing. Um.

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Speaker 1: And that that occurs annually within the United States. So

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Speaker 1: every year that is that's pretty crazy. It translates to

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Speaker 1: about ten deaths a day. You know. I just have

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Speaker 1: to say, I grew up near Lake Laniar, which is

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Speaker 1: a fairly large man made lake here in Georgia, and

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Speaker 1: it it is um, it would be surprising, maybe it

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Speaker 1: would be surprising to you, certainly surprising to me the

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Speaker 1: number of people who would accidentally drown in that lake

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Speaker 1: every year, and I was unaware of it as a kid,

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Speaker 1: but now when I see statistics about it, it's just

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Speaker 1: it blows my mind. And to be fair, a lot

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Speaker 1: of those do have they end up having to do

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Speaker 1: with drinking and swimming, or drinking and voting, something like that.

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Speaker 1: Um in today's case that we're gonna get into a

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Speaker 1: little later, also involves perhaps drinking, perhaps drug use, and

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Speaker 1: being in a body of water. I have a very

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Speaker 1: tangentially related, perhaps fun uh act for which you probably

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Speaker 1: already know, and you probably already known. No, it's this

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Speaker 1: Georgia has no natural lakes. They're all man made. Oh

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Speaker 1: so that's that's a little palate cleanser. I'm okay with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the ingenuity of mankind, you know, on full display here

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Speaker 1: in Georgia. Yeah, but we do have some swamps, that's right,

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Speaker 1: we do have some some schwamps. Not the best for swimming, no, no,

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Speaker 1: just for swimmers. Um Ross, David Schwimmer, is that the

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Speaker 1: one he notoriously loves a good swamp. Okay, yes, swamp

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Speaker 1: Ross used to think was his name. In the pilot.

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Speaker 1: They changed his character a little bit. But okay, so

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Speaker 1: that palate cleanser just helps us get further into the

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole here because of those drowning deaths. When we

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Speaker 1: look at drowning deaths, an additional three hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: two people died each year in death, So we're the

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Speaker 1: linear esque ones voting related. Of the people who die

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Speaker 1: about one from drowning, about one in five are children

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Speaker 1: fourteen or younger. And that sadly makes brutal sense, which

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Speaker 1: is why life fests are the law, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: kids under certain age are required to wear life fests

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Speaker 1: and lifeguards even in kittie pools for sure. And here's

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Speaker 1: something that was surprising to me of drowning victims according

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Speaker 1: to the CDC are mail that, I that doesn't make

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Speaker 1: sense to me. But let's continue on down here, because

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Speaker 1: almost fifty percent of drownings can be attributed in some

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Speaker 1: way or or in to some extent, to intoxication of

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Speaker 1: some kind or another. How do you differentiate between a

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Speaker 1: purposeful drowning and an accidental drowning? There there's the rub.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that proving a drowning was purposeful intentional homicide.

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Speaker 1: Proving that is very very difficult. A lot of evidence

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Speaker 1: can be washed away, And because rowning is tragically common,

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Speaker 1: and because fifty percent of drownings in this country can

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Speaker 1: be attributed to some sort of inebriation, law enforcement is

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Speaker 1: often it's easy to assume it was an accident because

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Speaker 1: the odds against it being a homicide statistically, you're very high.

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Speaker 1: Short of there being like a cinder block tied to

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Speaker 1: someone's leg or the like, or maybe you know, choking

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Speaker 1: marks around a neck or something like that, or some

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Speaker 1: sign of trauma that someone was thrown or held down

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Speaker 1: or whatever, it could very easily be ruled um an

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Speaker 1: accidental death. And again that benefits. Again we're not saying

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Speaker 1: they're doing it on purpose for being lazy, but that

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Speaker 1: absolutely is probably a desired outcome for law enforcement to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: close the book on that. Let's move on to the

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Speaker 1: million other cases that we have just jumping through here.

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Speaker 1: And I know we're gonna hit on this, but the

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Speaker 1: concept if you're thinking in your mind of Okay, we

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Speaker 1: found a drowning victim, but there is blunt force trauma,

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Speaker 1: like there's evidence of blunt force trauma to the head

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Speaker 1: or something, Sure, how how can you fully rule out

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Speaker 1: that that didn't occur? Or when a fall happened, or

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Speaker 1: you know, there there, It just becomes it becomes a

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Speaker 1: labyrinth of you have to basically work to say this

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Speaker 1: was a homicide. You yeah, the order of conclusions or operations,

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Speaker 1: the sort of the decision tree does have when it

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Speaker 1: comes to drowning. Uh, the best way to say it

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Speaker 1: is that medical examiners have to rule out every other

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Speaker 1: possible explanation as to why someone ended up dead in

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Speaker 1: the water, and they have to think of, you know,

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Speaker 1: drug overdoses, right, maybe maybe a heart attack, maybe a

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Speaker 1: slip and fall and that caused blunt injury to their

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Speaker 1: head and they were unconscious and couldn't get out of

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Speaker 1: the water. And only after saying it was definitely none

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Speaker 1: of those things are they able to say maybe it

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Speaker 1: was murder. Not to mention the fact that unless a

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Speaker 1: body is weighted down, which would be clear indication of

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Speaker 1: foul play, it's kind of drift some distance, so it's

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Speaker 1: harder to tie it to the location where the fall

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Speaker 1: maybe actually happened, or say, oh, this is definitely where

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Speaker 1: they hit their head, etcetera. So it really is kind

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Speaker 1: of a perfect storm of of being able to declare

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Speaker 1: it an accident depending on in which body of water

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Speaker 1: they're recovered. And then it gets more complicated because all

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Speaker 1: of that if if all of those things somehow happened

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Speaker 1: in a medical examiner is able to say, this indicates

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Speaker 1: that it could only be a murder if that very

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Speaker 1: rare set of circumstances occurs. Then the next step is

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Speaker 1: to prosecute or find, you know, someone who would have

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Speaker 1: done this. And like a lot of violent crime, in

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Speaker 1: homicide murders that we know of and that are proven, uh,

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Speaker 1: the the criminal is usually someone familiar with the victim.

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Speaker 1: It's not just a random right, but proceed, shooters have

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Speaker 1: to prove that. They have to prove a drowning was intentional,

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Speaker 1: which means they have to build a case on circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 1: They have to be able not just to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: the flow of the river is this, or we know

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Speaker 1: that the lake works this way. They have to also say, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know these people were fighting, uh Tammy and tamarrow

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Speaker 1: or whatever, we're angry at each other. Yeah, they have

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Speaker 1: to do motive exactly where there was money, there were

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Speaker 1: money issues. There was an insurance policy that just got

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Speaker 1: taken out forty eight hours before. Uh, there was trouble

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Speaker 1: with the law. And because of all of these factors,

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult to know how many homicides involving drowning

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Speaker 1: actually exists, and there's not much research on it. Local

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Speaker 1: police statistics, of course, are not always as well documented

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Speaker 1: as people would hope. Um, Like, consider this, Matt, you

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Speaker 1: give us the statistics of drowning. Overall proval proving cases

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Speaker 1: of drowning. According to the FBI, in seen, we just

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Speaker 1: pull one one year from their uniform crime report, there

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Speaker 1: were only eight homicides by drowning and that's out of

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Speaker 1: what more than three and a half thousand per year,

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Speaker 1: So they out of those that were only able to

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Speaker 1: prove the eight, we're homicides. And this bothers people in

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Speaker 1: multiple aspects of law enforcement. There's a diver less than

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Speaker 1: the average number of of drownings that occur per day. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: That's a great way to look at it. So according

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Speaker 1: to people like a diver named Andreas Afferis, who began

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Speaker 1: assisting homicide investigators with cases involving drowning way back in

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Speaker 1: this diver says, we're absolutely missing more than we're catching

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Speaker 1: in homicide drowning cases. A vast majority of drownings are accidental,

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Speaker 1: but many which can be the result of foul foul

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Speaker 1: play are overlooked. So they're saying they're not They're saying, Look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everybody who drowned was murdered, but

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Speaker 1: I'm saying we are missing stuff, and behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: everybody knows it. Because also a lot of um, a

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Speaker 1: lot of professionals like that it's their career to investigate

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Speaker 1: this stuff, don't receive the training they need. But what

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Speaker 1: if a killer knew that too, Like, knew those stats

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Speaker 1: and knew how easily these things can go under the

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Speaker 1: radar and be ruled an accident, Because if you ask me,

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Speaker 1: drowning someone wouldn't necessarily be the first way you might

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Speaker 1: choose to kill somebody. It's it's it's a little tenuous, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: unless certain things are in place, how are you going

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Speaker 1: to know if the person actually died or not? Um,

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting question. But what if someone did know

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Speaker 1: and I was able to kind of fit this into

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Speaker 1: their plan? Right? What if some of these accidental drownings

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Speaker 1: are in fact murders, And furthermore, what if these murders

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Speaker 1: are related we'll talk about that right after a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. We are

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Speaker 1: entering the realm of what is commonly called the smiley

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Speaker 1: face murder theory, the smiley face murders, the smiley face

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Speaker 1: killer or slight spoiler alert here killers. Yeah. This, This

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Speaker 1: theory argues that more than forty cases I think forty

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Speaker 1: five or so of fatal drownings between and at least

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight were mistakenly labeled accidental when they

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Speaker 1: were in fact homicides. And that number, by the way,

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Speaker 1: as we go through this has the number of suspected

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Speaker 1: cases of fatal drowning related to this case um hasn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily grown, but the possible cases identified by some of

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Speaker 1: these guys has risen up into the three hundred something range, right,

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Speaker 1: And this uh, that number comes often from people who

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Speaker 1: later came to the theory and started finding what they

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Speaker 1: felt were common analogies and some of the original investigators

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Speaker 1: and some of the original investigators here's so, here's the gist.

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Speaker 1: The these cases of fatal drownings involved young men, college

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Speaker 1: age dudes who were found dead in bodies of water

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Speaker 1: across several different Midwestern states in the US over the

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Speaker 1: last decade, and the investigators eventually started using the term

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Speaker 1: serial killer, which a lot of a lot of professionals

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Speaker 1: hate because it feels a little alarmist and hyperbolic. But

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Speaker 1: why smiley face? What did they just pick that one?

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Speaker 1: We all know what a smiley faces. We don't have

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Speaker 1: to overthink that. It's like we all knew what drowning is.

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Speaker 1: Smiley face to bottom half of a circle. Oh, it

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Speaker 1: looks like a face. Well in this case UM. The

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Speaker 1: idea of the smiley face became connected to this alleged

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Speaker 1: UM string of murders cluster of murders UM when it

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Speaker 1: was announced publicly that police had discovered graffiti UM depicting

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Speaker 1: that that ubiquitous two dots and in half a circle

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Speaker 1: smiley face near the locations where they believe UH the

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Speaker 1: killer or potentially killers dumped bodies in UM at least

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Speaker 1: a dozen of these cases. Also a phrase uh sincinewa

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Speaker 1: UM was also cited as being found near some of

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Speaker 1: these areas that were being investigated in connection with bodies

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Speaker 1: found floating in water. I would like to point out

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Speaker 1: here that the smiley faces again, it's only in thirteen

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Speaker 1: of these identified forty something cases. But it it changes

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Speaker 1: a lot. You can go online and see pictures of

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Speaker 1: several of the alleged smiley face connected graffiti's and they

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Speaker 1: really like one of them looks like a little version

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Speaker 1: of a devil or demon. They're in varying colors, varying

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Speaker 1: sizes and styles. Um. It's it's interesting that it's not

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Speaker 1: a single symbol. You know, if it was going to

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Speaker 1: be just a serial killer, you'd think that it would

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Speaker 1: just be a symbol. But perhaps, uh, as we get

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Speaker 1: through here, it'll make more sense of why it would change. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in in a few minutes as well,

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Speaker 1: the differing interpretations of what a smiley face might be

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Speaker 1: or what the import of it is. Let's let's look,

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Speaker 1: let's step back, let's look at the proponents, the creators

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Speaker 1: of this theory. To do so, we journey to New

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Speaker 1: York where we meet New York Police Department detectives Kevin

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Speaker 1: Gannon and Anthony d'Arte. Now we're tired. Now we're tired,

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Speaker 1: both retired and private investigators. In two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: they announced that they believed one Patrick McNeil, four year

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Speaker 1: old ford him accounting major at the time of his death.

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Speaker 1: Did not drown accidentally. But okay, what happened to McNeil

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Speaker 1: at the time, By the way, Gannon was Gannon was

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Speaker 1: a working detective. He wasn't retired yet, so me Neil

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Speaker 1: was hanging out in the East Side, the upper east

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Speaker 1: Side of New York City. He was having a night

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Speaker 1: of it. He was drinking. It was February sixteenth, nineteen seven.

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Speaker 1: He's at this place called the Dapper Dog that's on

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Speaker 1: East nine Street there in New York City, and he's

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Speaker 1: hanging out, he's doing his thing, he's having a night

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Speaker 1: of it. He disappears, and then later on April seven,

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Speaker 1: his body is discovered. He's discovered near the sixty ninth

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Speaker 1: Street pier in Brooklyn. He is floating in the water. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Gannon at the time specifically working in missing persons

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Speaker 1: and he catches the case. It's in the East River.

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Speaker 1: By the way, the case is ruled unintentional or accidental.

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Speaker 1: And this is one of those things that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's weird. A lot of a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement or in related jobs tend to to get

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Speaker 1: a case or certain cases that that stay with them

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Speaker 1: that haunt them, you know, And this was it for Gannon.

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Speaker 1: He did not agree with the official findings, and he

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Speaker 1: spoke with the parents of McNeil and he said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, job aside, I am not giving up this

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Speaker 1: investigation until I find the real story of what happened

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Speaker 1: to your son. And this stays with him throughout his career.

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Speaker 1: When he retires, he enlists Anthony Darty, who is his

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Speaker 1: old partner, and he says, let's let's do this full time.

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Speaker 1: It's similar to in a way of to do another

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Speaker 1: UH fictional comparison. It's similar to UH Marty and rust

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Speaker 1: Coal in True Detective season one, right when they This

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Speaker 1: doesn't really spoil the story, but there's a segment where

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Speaker 1: neither of them are working for law enforcement, but there's

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Speaker 1: a case they can't let go and they become they're

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Speaker 1: working as p i s. Essentially, that's what these guys

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Speaker 1: do in real life. And Gannon mortgages his house, spends

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Speaker 1: his savings researching this, chasing these cases, and they start

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Speaker 1: linking McNeil's death to other cases that they feel have

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Speaker 1: disturbing things in common. Because it turns out that McNeil

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Speaker 1: is not the only person in this part of the

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Speaker 1: world who went out for a night partying with their

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Speaker 1: friends and was later found dead in the water. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's let's jump right back quickly, just to talk about

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Speaker 1: how McNeil is a college senior. He is uh like

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Speaker 1: a lot of the people were going to talk about.

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Speaker 1: He's pretty athletic. He's kind of at the top of

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Speaker 1: his game. Right, He's a young white male um. And

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00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: that is one of the things that ends up linking

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Speaker 1: a lot of these cases together, just one of the

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Speaker 1: top level things. So they noticed that McNeil's death was

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Speaker 1: similar to that of a gentleman named Lawrence Andrews. This

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Speaker 1: guy was twenty two years old. He was New Year's

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Speaker 1: Even two thousand and six. He was drinking their Grand

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Speaker 1: Central terminal and he vanished and then later his body

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Speaker 1: was discovered on February twelve, two thousand seven, also off

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Speaker 1: the sixty nine Street Pier's close to where to where

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00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: McNeel was found. And Gannon says that he and his

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Speaker 1: partners studied the water flow of the area and the

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Speaker 1: contours of the land, and he said, look, the similarities

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Speaker 1: between these two cases cannot just be accident. He believed

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Speaker 1: that in both cases the victims were drugged with g HB.

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Speaker 1: Is the day rape drug right right right that makes

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Speaker 1: you know, insensate, unconscious, unable to fight back or defend yourself.

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Speaker 1: Is it essentially like a sedative or is it more

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Speaker 1: like maybe you know what they would call it, benzo diazepin,

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Speaker 1: like a xanax or something where it kind of makes

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Speaker 1: you black out almost where you don't remember what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I do know it affects. It does affect memory, I believe,

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Speaker 1: and people have used it as a party drug. But

427
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: I always learned about it as as I always learned

428
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: about it as you know, a drug that creeps give

429
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: to people to sexually assault, and technically I believe it

430
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: is a central nervous system depressant. Anyhow, he says, this

431
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: specific substance has been given to these guys. They were drugged,

432
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: and then they were placed in the water after some

433
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: amount of time, which will become very important later. And

434
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: then these two guys learned that four young men had

435
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over forty day period in

436
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, and that they, like McNeil and

437
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: like Lawrence Andrews, had a lot of the similar things

438
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: that you had just described as somebody's out maybe partying

439
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: with their friends, and then they walk off, perhaps not

440
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: seeming to be in a state of distress, and then

441
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: they disappear. The detectives did something interesting here, and it

442
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: goes to a point you made earlier. No, they started

443
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: looking not to where the bodies were physically found, but

444
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: to where, according to their best guests, the bodies had

445
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: entered the water right and that's where they found the

446
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: smiley faces. And again, as as established earlier, not they

447
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: didn't find forty five different smiley face icons for every

448
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, everybody that that was discovered. They only found, uh,

449
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: twenty two or twenty something at the time. I know

450
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna get there, but I do want to say

451
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: that that is a as we mentioned, a pretty ubiquitous,

452
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 1: very low key graffiti. Everyone knows how to do it,

453
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, any of your fair weather taggers. That would

454
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: be a pretty easy go to to just do a circle,

455
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: two dots and a and a half a circle, you know. Yeah,

456
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: and the guy who made this smiley face uh work

457
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: of genius. Really, Like imagine doing something that that important.

458
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: It's it's three lines. It's one of those things too,

459
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: where it's like such a parallel thinking type thing and

460
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: such a simple thing. I don't I I almost guarantee

461
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: there's no one like credited with the smiley face. I

462
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: actually I think there might be. Actually I think there

463
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: might be. Uh. And it maybe just because of uh,

464
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: just because that's the person who got it on a

465
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: T shirt and I was having a nice day. Maybe, right, Yeah,

466
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Harvey ross Ball yep.

467
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: Interesting fifty years ago in Worcester, Massachusetts. Uh, an American

468
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: graphic artist. He's credited as creating this, right, I did. Uh.

469
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: I think I did an episode of maybe Stuff of

470
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: Genius about that. A lot of people in the US

471
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: learned about that through the film adaptation of Forrest Gump

472
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: when the guys going on his running streak and then

473
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: he wipes his face with them. Yeah. Yeah, but that aside,

474
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: it is a very very very very common dare I say,

475
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: ubiquitous icon. It's funny not to get up too off talk,

476
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: but you guys know, I worked on a show called

477
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: Happy Face about the Happy Face serial killer, and he

478
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: was given that moniker because he signed his letters to

479
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: the press us with that very same icon. And when

480
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: you Google Smiley Face Killer, Happy Face Killer comes up

481
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: a lot too, so they're often kind of conflated because

482
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: of the similarities in the in the in the monikers. Right, Yeah,

483
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: that's that's a very important distinction. These are These are,

484
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: as far as we know, not related, and I don't

485
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: think Gannon or Darte are arguing that they are. But

486
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: they are arguing that they found copious evidence suggesting that McNeil,

487
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: who again is that sort of the genesis the origin

488
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: point for this theory, that McNeil didn't just walk off

489
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: a few sheets to the wind and then fall in

490
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: a river and drown. They're saying that someone intoxicated him,

491
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 1: they drugged him. There was a car scene following him

492
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: after he left the bar the Dapper Dog. They're also

493
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: saying he had ligurature marks on his neck, charring on

494
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: his head and torso, and that the way his body

495
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: was positioned was inconsistent with normal drowning. So someone tortured him,

496
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: drugged him, tortured him and then placed him in the water.

497
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: They said he had been stalked, drugged, abducted, bound, burned,

498
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: and then killed and then dumped in the water. Well,

499
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: and you know, the one major thing that makes sense

500
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: there is that he was missing for a month, you know,

501
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: so it's he dropped off the map, he was somewhere,

502
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: and then forty days later he was found dead and

503
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: he you know, he doesn't seem like he was sitting

504
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: in the water for forty days exactly right. It seems

505
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: like he had been in the water for a relatively

506
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: short amount of time, right, And we see that that's

507
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: another commonality they look for in some of these cases

508
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: is the the amount of time, the gap between when

509
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: a victim was last seen and when their body was discovered.

510
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: And in some cases that's that's quite a stretch, you know.

511
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: They said that McNeil was murdered by what they called

512
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: the Smiley Face gang. See, because they don't believe it's

513
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: just one person. They believe there isn't a group doing this.

514
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: That's the only way they think you can explain the

515
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: the regional distribution of the murders cities across eleven states

516
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: since maybe even continuing today, according to them, And we

517
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about the commonalities they link they

518
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: use to link these cases, but but what are they

519
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: other than you know, the method of murder, which would

520
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: be drugging and drowning. One of the big things they

521
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: noticed is that these guys were very similar with regards

522
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: to their demographics. These are young men, a lot of

523
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: them college age, who disappeared after a night of drinking,

524
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: specifically going out and drinking, and they did end up dying.

525
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: They also noticed that these guys are athletic, a lot

526
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: of them at least UM. The majority of these cases

527
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: were young white men who were athletic and UH. This

528
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: purported symbol of what you could call, I guess, a

529
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: gang or a cell of potential killers. The smiley faces

530
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: UM were drawn on walls around just twenty two of

531
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 1: the crime scenes in five different states, including Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania,

532
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: and Ohio. We also have the size and shape of

533
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: the smiley faces varying UM and the paint used also

534
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 1: varying UM. Some of the faces, for example, might have

535
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: had horns, just a popular variation on that, like you

536
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: can think of like an emoji uh, like the kind

537
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: of wicked having you know, like sort of dastardly fun

538
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: mischievous uh emoji smiley that has sort of like a

539
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: smirk and the horns be a hot topic and gad

540
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: to totally. Yeah. I actually remember when I was a kid,

541
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan, and there was a Smashing

542
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: Pumpkins T shirt for um that Melancholy Infinante Sadness album,

543
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: and it said the world is a vampire and it

544
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: had a kind of iconic smiley vampire with fangs and

545
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: little horns drawn in this exact same style. Yeah, and

546
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: Gannon the the investigator there. Even he has a quote

547
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: I think we mentioned this, but he calls it an evil,

548
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: happy smiley man. Right. And just for a second when

549
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: you said Gannon, I was thinking to the antagonist in

550
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: Zelda Too. It different Gannon. Gannon turned a new corner

551
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: and he left High Rule and became a p I

552
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: because he's got a lot, he's got a lot of skeletons,

553
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: and he's a tortured anti hero. Yeah, he's the main

554
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: bad guy I was from from the beginning of the series,

555
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,479
Speaker 1: from the ones that I played. Yes, yeah, you're talking

556
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: to like early Nintendo versions are like more like recent

557
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: ones like the wind Walkers. For me, it was the

558
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: early Nintendo Uh but but but our Gannon in this

559
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: story is Gannon with G A N N O N

560
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,959
Speaker 1: spelling Kevin in front of it and with a Kevin

561
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: in front of it. Kevin is the important distinction. They're

562
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: really quick, another little just a pellet cleans there, did

563
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: you hear they are? It seems like this is such

564
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: a missed opportunity. They're making a Zelda series. Yeah, it's

565
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: gonna be a stream took long enough, right, doesn't this

566
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: seem like that one is rife? There was a Zelda series, right,

567
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: I don't think so. There maybe a cartoon, but this

568
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: will be live action. Yeah? Really? Oh, you're like one

569
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: of the few video game adaptations that actually could be

570
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: really cool. Yes, I do remember watching the legend of

571
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: Zelda cartoons. Okay, I just wanted to make sure I

572
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: was remembering that correctly. Matt, you had you had mentioned

573
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: earlier that idea, that the idea of the differentiation between

574
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: the icons, and again the idea that there's a very

575
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: common icon. But for now, let's just let's approach it

576
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: this way. If this theory is true, it is profoundly disturbing.

577
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: And again, if it's true, there are terrified and implications here. First,

578
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: there's the possibility of multiple killers working in concert. The

579
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: reason that is disturbing is because despite what fiction would

580
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: have you believe. It is incredibly rare for investigators, for

581
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: anyone to find a proven case of serial killers operate, cooperating. Really,

582
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: it's um the kind of um mental disfigurement that leads

583
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: someone to become a serial murderer doesn't really doesn't doesn't

584
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: really predispose them to group work or group projects. There

585
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: are some, of course, there are exceptions there. Uh. Lake

586
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: and Ing would be one famous case, Henry Lee Lucas

587
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: an oddest tool. Uh once you may remember from our

588
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: Hand of Death episodes, Uh, and our he got a

589
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: recent mention under Samuel Little episode. So for that to exist,

590
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: for a group like that to exist, this would be

591
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: one of the first proving cases. The second terrifying implication.

592
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: They have a long career, you know what I mean,

593
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: almost twenty three years, right, And that's just that's right,

594
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 1: that's just assuming what Gannon and Darte have found is legit.

595
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: The third is, if you think about it, this is

596
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: technically organized crime at that point, because it denotes a

597
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: level of organization that serial killers have not been proven

598
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: to have. Lake and Ing weren't doing this, Lucas and Tools,

599
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: certainly we're not in fact Gannon has described this as

600
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: a a nationwide group that functions in in terms of cells,

601
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: similar to a terrorist group. The weird thing about that

602
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: is it is possible for it is possible for people

603
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: to operate in a decentralized way like this just by

604
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: using Internet forms to communicate, similar to the what was

605
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: the thing with Old Dutch the Lake City Quiet Hills?

606
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: Similar to that, you know, it's it's very easy to

607
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: start a group and if you're careful with your language,

608
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: to communicate things from point A to point B without

609
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: ever pining law enforcement, you know what I mean, or

610
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: anyone else, or anyone else that you don't want them

611
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: to know. You could do it right under the nose

612
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: of somebody. I mean, have you ever gone to a

613
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: form and found some stuff that seemed like it was

614
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: a code? I don't know, No, Okay, alright, well, I

615
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to put you in a bad spot

616
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: there or a Facebook group right right right. But let's

617
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: say it's all true. If this is all true, then

618
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: that means those implications are necessarily true. It logically follows,

619
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: and then the next question is why aren't the authorities

620
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: doing more? Well, that's because it's a controversial theory, and

621
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 1: not everyone agrees on what's happening here. We'll dive into

622
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: the problems with the narrative. After a word from our sponsors,

623
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: we're back. So, as you said, there are problems with

624
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: this narrative. This exploring these problems, of course, should no

625
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: way be interpreted as disrespectful to the families, or the

626
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: victims or the investigators involved. We're just looking at all

627
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: the different explorations. There's a nonprofit group called the Center

628
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: for Homicide Research, and they attempted to scientifically debunk the

629
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: smiley faced murders or killers theory. They they came up with.

630
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: They came up with They had a report that you

631
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: can find online that has lawn tree list of reasons

632
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: why they think this narrative described by Gannon doesn't hold water.

633
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: And honestly, they have some good points, like we do

634
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: not have solid evidence that the smiley faces were drawn

635
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: at the same time the bodies were put in the water, right,

636
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: that makes sense. They also know that graffiti exists everywhere,

637
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: especially I mean, if you think about a place that

638
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: isn't visited a whole bunch, even if it's down by

639
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: a river or somewhere you know you will find graffiti.

640
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: Well that's where you're running the mill. Novice tagger is

641
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: going to cut their teeth is out of like you know,

642
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: the public eye, like under a bridge or on a

643
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: retaining wall, like around or like the l a river

644
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: for example, or any other body of water that's in

645
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: a mean the municipal type area, you know, like up here,

646
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: like in the New York City where several of these

647
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: cases took place. Well, they also make the exact same

648
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: point that we were just talking about, how ubiquitous smiley

649
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: faces just are as a symbol, and what a dashed

650
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: off thing a kid might do. You know, I want

651
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: to do a graffiti artist. You know what's the first

652
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: thing that's going to come to mind. The most simple

653
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: iconographic thing you could do is that circle two dots

654
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: in a half moon. You know, it's it's it takes

655
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: very little forethought, the easiest thing in the world just

656
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: to dash off from the top of your head, you know. Yeah,

657
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: And it also pretty clearly doesn't seem to be a

658
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: you know, a gang sign that because it's not matching, right,

659
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: they're so dissimilar. But they also noticed that that other

660
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: word that we mentioned earlier, sinewa, sin Cinewa. They they

661
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: note that that is a common use of graffiti, a

662
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: common thing to be written, so it appears to be

663
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: also a red herring. They're saying both the smiler face

664
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: and that her red herring. Then made the point that

665
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: you know how a lot of you'll see single words

666
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: written on overpass bridges, etcetera. That is typically a signature

667
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: of a particular tagger or a graffiti artist. So since

668
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: Cinewa could be one individual who travels around, maybe a

669
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 1: train kid or something who travels around and just does

670
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: this tag, or it could or it could be multiple

671
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: people who think that's a cool name, super creepy sounding, right,

672
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, because grapheads and and and painters they get

673
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: they take that name stuff very seriously, you know. Uh.

674
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: It Also, it also reminds me of one of my

675
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: favorite taggers over the years in Atlanta. There was for

676
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: a time a guy or girl or person who did

677
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: the tag goat Ravisher, And they didn't do it in

678
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: a stylistic way. They did a really bad job, so

679
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: bad that you would think it's on purpose. They it

680
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: just looked like they have found something and in shaky

681
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: block letters, spray painted the goat Ravisher, and they were

682
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: all over little five points uh they had they had

683
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: some spots on the bridge right outside of our office,

684
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: and I kept thinking, Man, I love I love this

685
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: in my head. There's always some weird knowledge to doom,

686
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: like I love this dude's energy because it was really

687
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: it was right next to really really nice ornate tags

688
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: and pieces, and this guy would come by and be like, oh,

689
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: and that probably took them like six hours. Anyway, the

690
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: goat Ravisher strikes again. I also, like, you know, I

691
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: also love the idea that this person is clearly romancing

692
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 1: the goat. You know, it's really like, you know, whining

693
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: and dining the goat. It's pretty sure. It's like greatest

694
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: of all time. I think it's pretty good. So it's

695
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: the greatest of all time. So goat Rabisher if you're listening.

696
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: Nice work man missing on the streets. Yeah, we see you,

697
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: We see you. But sinuswat is a sin sinewa that's

698
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: s i n s i n i w a is

699
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: also common graffiti. So this nonprofit Center for Homicide Research

700
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: dismisses that as a red herring. A lot of people

701
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: have never seen a lot of people who are yeah,

702
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: it's not coming here in Atlanta, right. A lot of

703
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: people who are proponents of the theory feel like this

704
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: list is uh, somewhat dismissive. But the raison another great point,

705
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: which is estimating where the body might have entered the water.

706
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: If it's you know, X number of yards up or

707
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: even a mile up river from where the body was discovered,

708
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: it's just that it's an estimation. It can be it

709
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: can be an estimation with a high degree of sophistication,

710
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: but it's still it's never going to be a definite,

711
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: or it's it's gonna be rare for it to be

712
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 1: a definite. There will always be that question. They also

713
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: disagree with Gannon's findings on McNeil. They say there's no

714
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: evidence of victim trauma and the vast majority of recovered

715
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: remains don't show that the victims were recipients of trauma,

716
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: that they didn't have some you know, egregious signs of

717
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: a beating or something. They also point out that homicidal

718
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: drowning is incredibly rare. Again, this this is this, this

719
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: is this statement. You could you could pick a bone with.

720
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: You could have a problem with this one because they're

721
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: saying that homicidal drownings account for two tenths of one

722
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: percent of all U S killings. However, that number has

723
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: to be based on the very rare proven cases of

724
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: homicide by drowning, and to be a proven case of

725
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: homicide by drowning, remember that entire checklist of things that

726
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: investigators have to go through first. So odds are I mean,

727
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 1: there's no question by odds are more people have died

728
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: by homicidal drowning than the official numbers would suggest. Can

729
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: we double back really quickly to Gannon's obsession and where

730
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: you think this what the seeds of this were. It

731
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: was that one particular case, the family. That's it, right,

732
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: family like case. I mean, think about that. I think

733
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: just thinking about that. Somebody comes to you and you

734
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 1: know you're working, let's say, with them for some reason,

735
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: in in in in some ways working for them, um

736
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: as a public servant, as a part of the NYPD

737
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: trying to find her son. It's because it's aid, remember

738
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: it's a missing person's case for him in the beginning.

739
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: So he's learning everything he possibly can. I'm just this

740
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: is me projecting onto Kevin Gannon. But he's he's so

741
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 1: invested in that family and in this person that he's

742
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: trying to locate for days and days and days, and

743
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden shows up dead and drowned.

744
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: And I mean, you can imagine the effect that I

745
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: would have on you. If the family is like pleading

746
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: with you to to figure out what happened, you absolutely can.

747
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: And this is why I could never do that job.

748
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: But does this not seem like a classic example of

749
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: someone getting a little too close to what they're investigating.

750
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: You think he got lost in the case, and got

751
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: lost in the case, and got lost in the emotion

752
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: of it all, and and needed to build another narrative

753
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: and maybe was looking for things that weren't necessarily there,

754
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: because when you see this list all gathered together like this,

755
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: it really does seem like he was making quite the

756
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: leap of judgment. Well, that's that's the question. So there

757
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: is more I'm gonna say, We're gonna bring up later.

758
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: There's there's one or two major things that make me

759
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: lean a little closer to thinking there's something going on.

760
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: But let's let's continue on this list of why it's

761
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: probably not, at least according to this one. The idea

762
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: that water washes away all evidence is somewhat of a

763
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: myth or misleading. Uh. They argue that the drownings do

764
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: not fit a serial killer motive. I do also want

765
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: to point out that, I this might be a hot take,

766
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 1: but I don't think Harvey ross Ball, the inventor of

767
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: the smiley face, is directly related. You know, I think

768
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: his hands are clean in this one, pretty sure, yes. Uh.

769
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: And then they also have confessions of confessions of people

770
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: who are incarcerated that are saying something was a murder,

771
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: right or saying that saying that they saw something, they

772
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: witness something leading up to one of these disappearances. The

773
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: problem with that is that it's you have to be

774
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: really skeptical when you hear the confessions of inmates. Right

775
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: the again the Lucas conundrum, right with Henry Lee Lucas

776
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: confessing to hundreds of murders he could not have possibly done,

777
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: not have physically accomplished in exchange for you know, perks

778
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: in life. Find little case. Yeah, oh absolutely yeah, which

779
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: is the whole reason we found out about America's most

780
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: prolific serial killer. So they also say that, in their opinion,

781
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: the general environment of the disappearances sound like they're more

782
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 1: related to accidental or unintentional drownings. They occurred at night,

783
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: they were in areas not far from bars or college towns,

784
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: and they said that, you know, people have been drinking

785
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: who stagger away from bars are more likely to walk

786
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: or staggered downhill because it's easier. I get that, but

787
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: that's like, this is not an open sandbox game when

788
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: when you're walking home from anywhere, you have a specific direction,

789
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: and if it's uphill, you still have to go uphill.

790
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody is like, oh, my apartments at

791
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: the top of that hill, so I guess I'm going

792
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: the other way. And then they also say that, you know,

793
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: rivers also are downhill, and there are only a few

794
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: blocks away from the bars where these cases occur, and

795
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 1: that there's there there's a dearth of barriers. There are

796
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: very many fences or railings, so intoxicated people who are

797
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,959
Speaker 1: having tough time coordinating their ambulation might just slip and fall.

798
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: That's a really fancy way of saying walking. I love Well, yeah,

799
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: I just said walking so many times. It's fair. No,

800
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: it's great, you're a wordsmith. It just stinks because they're saying, look,

801
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: drunk people when they're super super drunk, are just gonna

802
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 1: stumble away from that bar and maybe you fall down

803
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: the hill land in a river because there's no barrier there.

804
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love that point about it being downhill

805
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: because that's just gravity is gonna like take its course. Yeah.

806
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: But these people were missing for a period of time

807
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 1: from a week to you know, a month, in a

808
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: quarter or something. It's like and I take issue with it,

809
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: but it feels a little victim blaming, right, Yeah, that's

810
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: I see. I see your point there. I see your

811
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: point there, Matt. I I agree. And they also say,

812
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, saying that only males are drowning in these

813
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: cases doesn't necessarily mean as serial killers involved, which is true. Uh.

814
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: They also say that in Wisconsin, particularly the town of

815
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: Lacrosse foot patrols and police have stopped over fifty plus

816
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: drunk people walking essentially, and they've stopped them because they

817
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: were about to walk into the area where the river

818
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: is late at night and there are no barriers. They

819
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: can slip at fall or into traffic. I mean, you know,

820
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: who knows. There's any number of things, But again, not

821
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: no victim blaming here at all. I do want to

822
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: point out too that, um, I maybe got this a

823
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: little wrong early on when I was leaning on the

824
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: idea of killing someone by drowning them is not really

825
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: a sure thing, right, Like if you're just pushing someone

826
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: into a river, like, how do you know they're not

827
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: just gonna swim away or like, you know, get out.

828
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: But part of this theory is the idea that they

829
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: were drugged and potentially killed in advance of being thrown

830
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: into the river. That's that's part of it, you know

831
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: what I mean, I wholeheartedly agree and that point is

832
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: one of the things that bugs me and so but

833
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: there's no evidence of that though, right there's some there's

834
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: some weird stuff going on, and we're gonna talk to

835
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: there's some weird stuff. I want to hit this. They

836
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,760
Speaker 1: also report on the actions of law enforcement in the

837
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: same town, saying that they've they've documented the circumstances of

838
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: at least twenty different people who would have drowned but

839
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: have survived. And they said, you know, in in every case,

840
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: we tried to figure out what got them to that

841
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: point where they almost drowned. Most of the time, uh,

842
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: these would be accidents. Sometimes they were dares because college kids. Right,

843
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: we were all we were all there before, or they

844
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: were attempting to commit suicide or they were again, this

845
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: is the most victim blamey thing they were involved in

846
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: aspects of auto assassination. This is a first for me

847
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: on this term. But I get it. It's dark. It's

848
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: Darwin's uh what is it? The Darwin award, that's what.

849
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,919
Speaker 1: That's what. Auto assassination is a Darwin award. Yeah, doing

850
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: something so stupid or like, you know, reckless, that's what

851
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 1: they're saying. Well, it's also just a lifestyle that involves

852
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: utter disregard for one's zone, longevity or or personal well

853
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: being safety. Right, Like you just throw all caution to

854
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: the wind, and you clearly are not looking out for yourself.

855
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: People who weren't searching for a victim blamey euphemism would

856
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: have just said self destructive. There you go. And I

857
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 1: think sometimes, you know, as the guy who just said

858
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: ambulation a few minutes ago, we have to be careful,

859
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: especially in law enforcement reports or government reports, when you

860
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: start to see the jargon words, you know, when you

861
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: when you start to hear I don't. It's like it's

862
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: the reason that successful cults always go into acronyms. Have

863
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: you guys ever read but behind the scenes, like actual

864
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: leaked scientology documents, they're riddled with acronyms. They're they're like

865
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: military writing from the nineteen fifties. Yeah, I've I've watched

866
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: all of George Carlin's specials, and in every one of

867
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: them he's always got a great section on euphemisms and

868
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: how we like whitewash everything. Yeah, you're right, it is.

869
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: It is a clinical way of referring to something that

870
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: potentially is a little darker, or it's a way of

871
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: maybe normalizing concepts that are a little more outlandish or

872
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: a little more troubling by giving them a nice pithy

873
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, like unsub for example, that's the unidentified subject

874
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: in a murder investigation. When you say unsub, it sounds

875
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: a lot more um digestible, maybe, you know, yeah, or

876
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist. That way you can ignore what uh kind

877
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: of drug money and international bank is moving? Oh whoa

878
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 1: the old thought terminating cliche exactly. But these points they

879
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: also say, as I think we mentioned earlier, that presence

880
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: of g HB in a victim's body does not indicate

881
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: whether they were maliciously drugged or whether they did it themselves.

882
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: That's true if we're exercising skepticism. But they also say

883
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: we don't have enough evidence to say that they were

884
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: drugged by offenders prior to their abduction. These points have

885
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 1: some validity, but let's just let's talk about let's talk

886
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 1: about the other side, because there there are several things

887
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: here that are incredibly I don't want to say they're

888
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: deal breakers, but they're they're problematic for anyone who thinks

889
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: that Gannon is completely just reading tea leaves. And the

890
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: first one is the one I keep coming back to,

891
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: is the the length of time, Like you said, Matt,

892
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: the length of time between when they were last seen

893
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 1: and when they were discovered. We didn't have great statistics

894
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 1: that we could dig up. Love to read him if you,

895
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: if you were listening to find him, have great statistics

896
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: on how long, on average it takes to find the

897
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: victim of the corpse of a drowning victim. Right, Yeah, Well,

898
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: here's the deal for me. I'm just gonna lay it

899
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: out really quickly. Um In the Rolling Stones article on

900
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: this subject that I think it came out in September

901
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: of last year. Yeah, exactly. It um it. It names

902
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: several victims. In particular. We we talked about Patrick Neil.

903
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: If you go to this person William Hurley, that I

904
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: don't think we actually mentioned on air here. Uh. He

905
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: was a guy who was hanging out of Boston Bruins

906
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: game in two thousand nine October eight, two thousand nine,

907
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: and his cell phone battery was really low. He's um.

908
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: He calls his girlfriend drunkenly, he's very intoxicated and says, hey,

909
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: come pick me up. She goes out to meet him

910
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 1: and he's gone. He's not there. She can't get in

911
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,479
Speaker 1: touch with him. Six days later, his body is found

912
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 1: in the Charles River and his cell phone is smashed nearby.

913
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 1: They recover that. Um like, okay, So that's one right,

914
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: that's one instance here we talked about McNeil. Dakota James, Yes,

915
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: Dakota James. So Dakota James is interesting in this in

916
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: that if we link him to the Smiley face theory,

917
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: he's a case where something almost went wrong, where something

918
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 1: did go wrong for the criminals because on December he

919
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: called his friend Shelley. He said he was terrified. He

920
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: was wandering around Pittsburgh. He was cold, he was he

921
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: didn't know where he was. He asked that he couldn't

922
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: remember what happened. He just sort of came to and

923
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: he was walking around the area and the police wouldn't

924
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: help him. So his friend freaks out. Did he get mugged?

925
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: His was he in an accident? Where are you? I'll

926
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: come find you. And then she actually does find him, uh,

927
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: and he's not where he said he would be her.

928
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: She was able to use her phone to find him. Uh.

929
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: And then when she got there, she saw a dark

930
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: suv in the wrong lane facing the wrong direction. He

931
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: was walking out of the hotel headed towards the suv,

932
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: and she caught him. She yelled at him, hey, I'm

933
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 1: over here, and he goes to his car. He got it,

934
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: goes to her car, got him with her and left. Uh.

935
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: He didn't seem drunk, didn't seem drugged. Uh. He was emotional,

936
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: but he wasn't you know, wet, dirty, hadn't been beaten.

937
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: He said, he just became a where he was walking

938
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: on the street, had no idea where he was or

939
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: how he got there. And the last thing he remembered

940
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: was leaving his work Christmas party and then going to

941
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: an after party with some of his co workers around

942
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: seven pm, and the rest of it he didn't remember.

943
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: He was traumatized, didn't want to go to the hospital.

944
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: He just went home and then uh, the next day,

945
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, I must have just had a crazy hangover,

946
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: living wild uh and they may have just forgotten it.

947
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: Just one friend helping out another, except that five weeks

948
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: later he vanished after after a similar night out with

949
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: some co workers, and his body was found forty days later.

950
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: Going back to your point, so so this sounds like

951
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: someone almost got him. Yeah, exactly, so he almost he

952
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 1: knew this person or he encountered this person early on,

953
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: it feels like. But the craziest thing, at least according

954
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: to Kevin Gannon, Anthony Duarte, and Lee Gilbertson, a criminal

955
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: justice professor, his body when it was recovered only showed

956
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: decomposition for two and a half days and he was

957
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: gone for forty days. So that's a weird one. But

958
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: that's why. Isn't that just an outlier? Maybe? Sure, maybe

959
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: that's a weird one. Okay, that's a weird one. How

960
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: about todd GIEB G E I B. He was missing

961
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: for twenty one days and according to these three guys.

962
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: He showed decomposition of two and a half days. But

963
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: I still don't see the connection. They're They're they're trying

964
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: to hang like hundreds of murders on this theory, and

965
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: there's maybe two or three outliers that like are suspicious,

966
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: and we know that people dispose of bodies and bodies

967
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: of water all the time. I mean, it's the oldest

968
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: trick in the book. But they haven't they have They've

969
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: said they believed there could be hundreds of related murders,

970
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: but they admit they can't prove it, at least for that.

971
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: And I see the point, Yeah, because for one thing

972
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: to be for one case to be a case of murder,

973
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: we have to realize one case or two cases isolated

974
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: cases could be cases of murder without inherently tying this

975
01:00:54,440 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: all in together. For law enforcement overall, people are still

976
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: pretty skeptical about this. You know, at this point, honestly,

977
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: the majority of l e os don't think the theory

978
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: has a lot of sand. The police department in Lacrosse, Wisconsin,

979
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: which is one of is in their theory. It's one

980
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: of the like primary sites for this. They were in

981
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: charge of eight of the investigations. They released a statement

982
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: reiterating their initial conclusion that the deaths were accidental or

983
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: non intentional drownings of inebriated young men, and they said

984
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: that they had found no smiley faced symbols in connection

985
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: with their cases. And so we see other agencies saying

986
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: that the FBI released his statement in twenty two thousand

987
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: eight denying any any sort of killer or uh group

988
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: of killers. The multiple sources who disagree with Gannon Darte's

989
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: theories say that we are creating a pattern where none exists,

990
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: perhaps as an emotional reaction to the um indescribable pain

991
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: of unexpectedly losing a loved one. At this point, Gannon

992
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: and Darte still stand by their findings and their research.

993
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: They insist the case or linked. They think the smiley

994
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: face killer or killers is or are still at large.

995
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: And I'm with you guys. There there are specific cases

996
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: where the official explanation leaves something to be desired. Yeah,

997
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, we didn't even get into things that Gaining

998
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: believes about the lividity lividity of some of these victims,

999
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: and that that's a term that's describing the pooling of

1000
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: blood and a dead body like after death has occurred

1001
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: within a body, and you know, I mean, I get

1002
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: this exactly right. But around sixty hours after death, lividity

1003
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 1: occurs where blood pools, it just goes, it uses gravity

1004
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: and heads towards the ground, right, and then there's discoloration

1005
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 1: on the body where the blood has pulled and he

1006
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: at least you know this team Gannon and then the rest.

1007
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: They're saying that the lividity within these dead bodies is

1008
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 1: not matching up, and it appears that they were killed

1009
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 1: on land and then dumped in the water. So and

1010
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: and here's here's the deal for me. Even if these

1011
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: cases aren't linked and it's not a single killer or

1012
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 1: a single group or something killing these people, there are

1013
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 1: individual cases out there that appear to have enough um

1014
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 1: questionable things about them that Gannon and those guys have

1015
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: identified that some of these cases maybe should be expanded

1016
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: upon or could be expanded upon. That's where I'm sitting

1017
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,919
Speaker 1: with it currently. I see what you're saying, absolutely, and

1018
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: we have an abundance of other theories. This this is

1019
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: pretty much an intro episode to the concept, right, because

1020
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: we can deep dive into other theories, such as the

1021
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 1: once popular belief that the killer or killers was traveling

1022
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 1: via their their work right, and they were able to

1023
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: use that as a cover because, of course, as as

1024
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: we all know, if you want to successfully get away

1025
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: with committing crimes against strangers, or if you want to

1026
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: you want to murder someone and be a ghost and

1027
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: never be connected to it, one very efficient way to

1028
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: cover your tracks is to already have been traveling for work. Oh,

1029
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,919
Speaker 1: which reminds me. We're going to l a soon, aren't we. Yeah.

1030
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: I know if you guys, if I told you guys this,

1031
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: But I actually have a jury summons on the Monday

1032
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: of that week that I'm supposed to be traveling. I'm

1033
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: going on Thursday, so I really hoping that I can

1034
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: either plead uh reason with the judge that there's I'm

1035
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: taking my kid to this as a big part of

1036
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: her birthday gift, and I have to make my case

1037
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: to the judge. But also worst case, maybe I'll to speak.

1038
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: I've got Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday to do my public service,

1039
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: so hopefully that will be enough. I don't think tell

1040
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: them you believe in jury nullification and that more people

1041
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: should be aware of it. Do you know what jury

1042
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: your nullification. I do, and I saw that on a

1043
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: message board. But I also saw a response to that saying,

1044
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: and then be ready to be taken away by the

1045
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: bailiff for being an attempt of court. Just say it

1046
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 1: in a polite way. Yeah, don't I mean, don't be

1047
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: don't be one of those am I being detained bro

1048
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: people that never goes well? Just like and also go

1049
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: quietly when the bailiff takes me away. No, no, I'm saying,

1050
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: if you pose something in a respectful manner and just

1051
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: gonna say, all right, this is not the guy for

1052
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: this case. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm not an expert,

1053
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure you can say, you know, I

1054
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: have work stuff that won't allow me to do this,

1055
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: and they'll just summon you for something else. But now

1056
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: we are at Now we are at the end of

1057
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: the intro to the Smiley face murders. As you can

1058
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 1: probably tell. And you may be on the same page

1059
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: with us, fellow listener, We're not. We're not a percent

1060
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: one way or the other. I will say that there

1061
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: are there are some compelling arguments that individual or isolated

1062
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: cases did not uh did not get their full story told.

1063
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: But also I can completely understand the people who would say, look,

1064
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 1: because we don't know the age of these smiley faces,

1065
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: because we don't have a good definition of what counts

1066
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: as quote unquote nearby, there's just not enough of a

1067
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: hook to hang this belief on. But take the smiley

1068
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: face away. What if the smiley face wasn't a part

1069
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: of it, right? What if that was just these drownings

1070
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: of young white college as males with some of these

1071
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: weird things going on, impossible drugging and being missing. Would

1072
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 1: you think they're could be any connection there? Yeah? Because

1073
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 1: for me, I I would believe it more if you

1074
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: took the smiley face and bout it feels a little

1075
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 1: prs right. I think that's an excellent point. And we

1076
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: want to know what you think. We want to hear Grotes.

1077
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 1: There are, of course, as we said, uh, a multitude

1078
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: of individual cases. Which ones stick out for you? Let

1079
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: us know. You can find us on Facebook, you can

1080
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,280
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter.

1081
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: We especially like to recommend our Facebook community page. Here's

1082
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. And while we're on the subject,

1083
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: if here's where it gets crazy, this is interesting. J Black.

1084
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: About an hour before we've recorded this episode J you

1085
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: went onto Here's where it gets crazy and said episode

1086
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 1: request the Smiley Face Killers urban legend. The guys have

1087
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: referenced it a few times, but never dug into it.

1088
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: It would be great to hear their take on it. Additionally,

1089
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 1: someone else nailed us yesterday last evening asking the same question.

1090
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: So are we group minding here? I'm pretty sure because

1091
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: we decided to do this a while ago. So we

1092
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 1: also had an email come through I think yesterday as

1093
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: we were recording us asking us to cover Q and

1094
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:22,560
Speaker 1: on Yeah, whoa and that we just got out of

1095
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 1: the studio doing that. One is somebody reading our internal documents,

1096
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 1: I mean our minds, man, that's what those are, ours,

1097
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: my internal document all right, So you don't only do

1098
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: any of that stuff. You can give us a phone call.

1099
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: We are one eight three three st d w y

1100
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: t K. You can call that number. Leave us a message.

1101
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: I will hear it. We've been getting lots of fantastic

1102
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: ones lately. UM. I need to do a better job

1103
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 1: of sharing that out to you guys. I apologize to

1104
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,640
Speaker 1: all three of you. UM, but we oh and you,

1105
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: I apologize to you. I'm not getting that out to

1106
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: you either, but some of them don't want to be

1107
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 1: got out to you. You listener, um, but that's okay. Leave,

1108
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: leave your messages, will do with them whatever you ask, okay.

1109
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 1: And if you don't want to do any of that stuff,

1110
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 1: you can send us a good old fashioned email. We

1111
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 1: are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't

1112
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:42,839
Speaker 1: want you to Know is a production of iHeart Radio's

1113
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1114
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1115
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.