Speaker 1: Welcome to the MLK Tapes, a production of iHeartRadio and
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
Speaker 1: are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
Speaker 1: in the podcast, and do not represent those of iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2: The National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis traces the history
Speaker 2: of slavery in America and then follows the nation's long
Speaker 2: struggle for human rights. Its rooms portray lunch counter sit ins,
Speaker 2: freedom rides, bus boycotts, and burned churches. To walk through
Speaker 2: its halls is a moving experience, made all the more
Speaker 2: exceptional because the museum is built into the shell of
Speaker 2: the former Lorraine Motel, where Martin Luther King was murdered.
Speaker 2: Being at the Lorraine also helps to bring into focus
Speaker 2: some of the unresolved questions surrounding the death of doctor King,
Speaker 2: more so because in two thousand and two, the museum
Speaker 2: acquired the neighboring rooming house from where James Earl Ray
Speaker 2: was said to have fired the fatal bullet. The rooming
Speaker 2: house has been renovated to accommodate the public and its
Speaker 2: access from the museum by way of a tunnel. Its
Speaker 2: interior is dedicated to displays that pertained to the assassination,
Speaker 2: such as a rifle said to be the murder weapon
Speaker 2: and a replica of Ray's famous white Mustang. But a
Speaker 2: few places had been preserved in the condition in which
Speaker 2: they were found after the murder, such as the bedroom
Speaker 2: that Ray had rented and the bathroom from which he
Speaker 2: was said to have fired the shot. When I visited
Speaker 2: Memphis last year, I was joined by historian Ryan Jones,
Speaker 2: who accompanied me through both the Lorraine and the rooming
Speaker 2: house sections of the museum. I was not permitted to
Speaker 2: record any sound, so the voice of mister Jones that
Speaker 2: you'll hear in this segment was recorded at a later date.
Speaker 2: Mister Jones had grown up in Memphis and has been
Speaker 2: with the museum for ten years. He is an expert
Speaker 2: on the King assassination, and I asked him what God
Speaker 2: him interested in the case.
Speaker 3: It wasn't until I moved back to Memphis in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety seven.
Speaker 4: I think I was watching a talk show.
Speaker 3: It may have been Montell Williams to be exact, and
Speaker 3: the King family, some of his children appeared on that
Speaker 3: talk show and they were talking of getting James Olray,
Speaker 3: the accused assassin, a trial here in Memphis, which he
Speaker 3: never got in nineteen sixty eight and sixty nine. And
Speaker 3: I really didn't get back into it until I began
Speaker 3: starting to work at the museum.
Speaker 4: And it was there when I realized that the.
Speaker 3: Museum holds all of the state's evidence against James Alray
Speaker 3: and its collections, and I just began to go by
Speaker 3: box by box, file by file.
Speaker 4: I left no foul, you know, unturned.
Speaker 3: So I just began to do my own individual research
Speaker 3: and began to interview people. And almost ten years later,
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like I have a pathway of
Speaker 3: what truly happened here in Memphis at the Lorraine on
Speaker 3: April fourth, nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 2: It should be noted here that on the issue of
Speaker 2: whether James Earl Ray was the lone assassin or if
Speaker 2: others were involved, the museum itself takes what it calls
Speaker 2: a neutral position. The people who work there are entitled
Speaker 2: to their opinions, But we should remember that Ryan Jones
Speaker 2: is speaking here on his own and not for the
Speaker 2: museum itself. Of course, working at the museum in the
Speaker 2: old Lorraine motel. Jones is in an excellent position to
Speaker 2: have an informed opinion about certain matters. For example, did
Speaker 2: King always stay at the Lorraine when he came to Memphis,
Speaker 2: has some said? Or did he usually stay at other
Speaker 2: places and was shamed or maneuvered into staying at the
Speaker 2: Lorraine because a certain reception had been planned.
Speaker 3: There is this myth that has been floating around for
Speaker 3: the past fifty two years that doctor King was a
Speaker 3: normal guest, and even that he stayed at the Lorraine
Speaker 3: on numerous occasions.
Speaker 4: This is, however, not true. This is indeed false.
Speaker 3: The Reverend James Lawson, who lived in Memphis at the time,
Speaker 3: whom King met with the day before his assassination, stated
Speaker 3: affirmatively many times that when he came to Memphis, they
Speaker 3: would stay at his house, they'd go to the Peabody,
Speaker 3: They'd stayed at the Admiral Bimbo.
Speaker 2: On March twenty eight, the night following the Memphis March
Speaker 2: that became a riot, King stayed at the Rivermont Hotel
Speaker 2: and held a press conference there the next morning, where
Speaker 2: he condemned the riot but couldn't say for sure how
Speaker 2: it had started, though there were those in his camp
Speaker 2: who believed the window smashing and looting had somehow been
Speaker 2: arranged in advance. Seven years later, in congressional hearings, it
Speaker 2: would be revealed that the same morning that King was
Speaker 2: speaking to the press, document was being produced by the
Speaker 2: FBI in Washington. It was in the form of a
Speaker 2: press release that criticized King for staying at the Rivermont
Speaker 2: and specifically named the Lorraine Motel as the more appropriate
Speaker 2: place for him to stay. It bore the approving initials
Speaker 2: of J at Gar Hoover and was to be circulated
Speaker 2: to what the FBI called friendly news outlets.
Speaker 3: The very next day, on the twenty ninth, there is
Speaker 3: a press release calling doctor King a hypocrite, and it
Speaker 3: pretty much states that you are staying at a predominantly
Speaker 3: white business and you're asking African Americans to boycott white
Speaker 3: merchants when you're not even given business to the lavish
Speaker 3: and plus Lorraine Motel. This was an FBI memorandum that
Speaker 3: was released on March to twenty ninth, nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 3: Whyou the FBI care where doctor King stays at this
Speaker 3: time unless the Lorraine Motel was a particular area that
Speaker 3: they needed him to be at, and of course, you know,
Speaker 3: he was eventually moved from his original room which was
Speaker 3: down below, and was moved upstairs to three of six.
Speaker 2: And just how did this room change come about? There
Speaker 2: are two stories. Both come from the owner of the Lorraine,
Speaker 2: Walter Bailey.
Speaker 3: Mister Bailey told this story to an investigative reporter by
Speaker 3: the name of Wayne Chastain, and the story states that
Speaker 3: someone who appeared to be very tall and athletic with
Speaker 3: it like complexion, came to missus Bailey, who did all
Speaker 3: of the hotel reservations, and stated that doctor King did
Speaker 3: not want this nice room inside and away from the
Speaker 3: original trajectory, and that he wonted room three US six
Speaker 3: on the second floor. The second story is that it
Speaker 3: was a phone call from Atlanta that was made so
Speaker 3: that the Bailey's got a phone call from Atlanta a
Speaker 3: day or two before they arrived, stating that doctor King
Speaker 3: specifically won at room three oh six.
Speaker 2: Why two stories, both supposedly from mister Bailey, we don't know,
Speaker 2: But if the real story involved the phone call from Atlanta,
Speaker 2: why would Walter Bailey make up another story of a tall,
Speaker 2: athletic man coming to the Lorraine to make the room change.
Speaker 5: It makes no sense.
Speaker 2: But if it were the other way around, and the
Speaker 2: room was changed by someone posing as an advanced man,
Speaker 2: a description of that man might, upon further thought, be
Speaker 2: a dangerous story to tell and give birth to the
Speaker 2: supposed phone call. Of course, a quick conversation with missus
Speaker 2: Bailey who changed the room could clear up the situation,
Speaker 2: but as mister Jones explains, that was never possible.
Speaker 3: Her name was Laurie Bailey, and she really was the
Speaker 3: one who ran the Loraino Motel. On the afternoon of
Speaker 3: April fourth, nineteen sixty eight, doctor King speaks with Missus
Speaker 3: Bailey standing on the balcony and he says, listen, Missus Bailey,
Speaker 3: if the food over at Reverend Kyle's's home is not good,
Speaker 3: I'm going to come back and count on you. And
Speaker 3: she kind of blushed and said, of course, anything for you,
Speaker 3: Doctor King, And then they go back into the kitchen
Speaker 3: area of the diner of the Lorraine. Then the shot
Speaker 3: rings out and the Baileys hear it from inside. They
Speaker 3: walk outside and they see doctor King Worley wounded on
Speaker 3: the second floor outside of room three of six, and
Speaker 3: immediately Missus Bailey says, why why, why? She took her
Speaker 3: hand and she kept hitting the side of her temple
Speaker 3: to the point where he could see her blood vessels
Speaker 3: moving oddly enough, mister Bailey left the Lora Hotel a
Speaker 3: few hours he lays his wife when there's police and
Speaker 3: investigators all over the motel's grounds, and he goes to
Speaker 3: his other job at the Holiday Inn on Lamar Avenue,
Speaker 3: and he gets a call from his brother, Beatrice Bailey,
Speaker 3: and Beatrice says Laurie, he's not an answering, She's not answering,
Speaker 3: And then they finally get to her, and they found
Speaker 3: her slumped over and she's gone into a coma to
Speaker 3: a stroke where she never gains consciousness again and actually
Speaker 3: dies at nine am on April and ninth, nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 3: We know now that a bud vessel ruptured in her brain.
Speaker 2: Mister Jones and I walk through the tunnel to the
Speaker 2: basement of the rooming house and then take the elevator
Speaker 2: up to the second floor. We come upon a glass
Speaker 2: case displaying the rifle that was found on the street
Speaker 2: just minutes after the shooting. Mister jo Jones gives a
Speaker 2: small laugh and informs me that the scope on the
Speaker 2: rifle is still not properly sighted. The rooming house has
Speaker 2: been gut renovated, so on the inside it doesn't look
Speaker 2: like it did in nineteen sixty eight, but the room
Speaker 2: that Ray rented and the bathroom down the hall had
Speaker 2: been recreated to be replicas of what was found right
Speaker 2: after King was killed. Over the years, a lot has
Speaker 2: been made about Ray choosing room five B because of
Speaker 2: its window rather than the only other room, which had
Speaker 2: no view but did have a stove. I asked Jones
Speaker 2: about five B and what problems it might present to
Speaker 2: a would be assassin.
Speaker 3: You are able to see the Lorainotel, and you are
Speaker 3: able to see the second four balcony of the Lorainmotel
Speaker 3: as well. Now, however, if your purpose is to assassinate
Speaker 3: Martin Luther King Jr. And you're using a rifle, you
Speaker 3: have a significant problem. In order to get a sufficient trajectory,
Speaker 3: have to walk outside of the bedroom of five B,
Speaker 3: down the hall and into a community bathroom in order
Speaker 3: to even get an attempt.
Speaker 2: The problem with that window was although you could see
Speaker 2: the rear part of the Lorraine Motel, you could not
Speaker 2: see room three h six, where doctor King was staying.
Speaker 2: Without opening the window and leaning out, and no one
Speaker 2: has ever said the shot was fired from there. I
Speaker 2: asked mister Jones to describe the bathroom, but I encourage
Speaker 2: the listener to look on her website to see the
Speaker 2: photo of the tiny room to better understand the issues
Speaker 2: at play here.
Speaker 3: When you look inside of this very small community bathroom
Speaker 3: that was shared by other people who were staying on
Speaker 3: the same floor, you see a commode, you see a
Speaker 3: very small sink, and until the left and the corner
Speaker 3: right beneath a partially open window, there's a bathtub. Now
Speaker 3: here's a significant red flag with that. James Olray was
Speaker 3: six feet in height, and the weapon that he admitted
Speaker 3: to buying in Birmingham, Alabama, a few days prior to
Speaker 3: doctor King's death is not a small weapon at all.
Speaker 3: It's a fairly large weapon with a scope as well.
Speaker 3: And James Alray, we know, was a right handed marksman.
Speaker 3: I about six feet, I'm about five to nine, and
Speaker 3: I've gotten into that bathtub with a rifle that's not
Speaker 3: the size of the one that rifle is accused of musing.
Speaker 3: And it was almost impossible for myself, also right handed,
Speaker 3: to have gotten a sufficient trajectory and My honest estimation
Speaker 3: is that if there was a shot fired from that
Speaker 3: community bathroom, which I don't think happened, you will have
Speaker 3: had to have been a left handed marksman to situate
Speaker 3: yourself in the bathtub in a very uncomfortable position.
Speaker 2: The bathroom window is small and leaves very little room
Speaker 2: for a weapon and a body to gain the needed
Speaker 2: angle to make the shot not impossible, But it's not
Speaker 2: like someone would just walk up to this window, take aim,
Speaker 2: and shoot something directly in front of it. As it
Speaker 2: exists today, the window is now open, just a matter
Speaker 2: of benches, as it apparently was on the day of
Speaker 2: the murder, and it appears to me as though the
Speaker 2: wooden bottom frame of the window would block or partially
Speaker 2: block the view through the scope of the rifle, even
Speaker 2: assuming it was properly sighted. But what got me most
Speaker 2: when I looked at the bathroom is the tub, a small, narrow,
Speaker 2: old fashioned bathtub with steep sloping sides. So instead of
Speaker 2: spreading his legs and creating a secure base for a
Speaker 2: difficult shot, our presumed shooter, mister Ray has to stand
Speaker 2: with his feet close together inside this narrow bathtub and
Speaker 2: get all balanced and squared away at just the time
Speaker 2: the King came out of his room at the Lorraine.
Speaker 2: Then Ray fired the only bullet he had loaded into
Speaker 2: his gun because he was that certain of his skill
Speaker 2: with the rifle he had only owned for four days.
Speaker 2: Then there is the question of what needs to happen
Speaker 2: in the next couple of minutes. As soon as the
Speaker 2: fatal shot us fired. Ray would need to return to
Speaker 2: Room five B, place the rifle in the box, and
Speaker 2: throw his personal belongings into a bag made from a bedspread,
Speaker 2: if he hadn't already done that before making his way
Speaker 2: down to his car. But instead of just throwing his
Speaker 2: stuff into his car, he leaves the bag and the
Speaker 2: gun on the street. Harold Weisberg's nineteen seventy one book
Speaker 2: Frame Up was the first to call into question the
Speaker 2: official story of the king murder, and we all owe
Speaker 2: him a debt. He died in two thousand and two,
Speaker 2: but I'd like to play for you here. His take
Speaker 2: on the stuff found on the street with Ray's rifle ridiculous.
Speaker 6: He's required of going to his room in the flophouse
Speaker 6: and picked up the why does collection of junk bobby pins,
Speaker 6: bobby pins, cans of beer that hadn't been opened. You know,
Speaker 6: a guy has been a crime like that and he's
Speaker 6: playing for his life. You're going to pick up a
Speaker 6: couple of cans of beer or bobby pin. The box
Speaker 6: didn't hold the rifle. He had to put the rifle
Speaker 6: in that all sorts of other junk, ridiculous collection of it.
Speaker 6: The one thing that that bundle served to do was
Speaker 6: the point a finger it ready.
Speaker 2: Ryan Jones agrees with Weisberg's doubt about the likelihood that
Speaker 2: Ray was the one who left the bundle with the
Speaker 2: rifle on the street.
Speaker 3: Why he would have ever have done that will always
Speaker 3: be a mystery. The car wasn't parked right in front
Speaker 3: of Jim's drills.
Speaker 7: Parked a little closer to the firehouse, but it's close
Speaker 7: enough to where he does not have to like run
Speaker 7: a significant long way.
Speaker 3: He had more than enough time. It was probably safer
Speaker 3: for him to just put the rifle and his car
Speaker 3: and drive off.
Speaker 2: It was strange to stand on South Maine with Ryan
Speaker 2: Jones and try to imagine things that had happened.
Speaker 5: Fifty years ago.
Speaker 2: There's no question that James Earl Ray rented Room five
Speaker 2: B from Bessie Brewer the day of the murder, but
Speaker 2: all the rest of it seems unlikely. I was grateful
Speaker 2: for the time Ryan Jones spent with me, so I
Speaker 2: asked him if he had anything else he wanted to say.
Speaker 3: I think that this would have been a very very
Speaker 3: interesting trial had Ray gone to trial. We have this
Speaker 3: weapon and it's never you know, the ballistics and trajectory
Speaker 3: are not tested. The room changed, Why the weapon was
Speaker 3: found when it was found? Who supplied Ray? The aliases
Speaker 3: of Gault Lobyer, Willard Bridgeman, Snay and you know what,
Speaker 3: this was a hate crime. You know I'm not buying
Speaker 3: it is said, hey crime, any ku kluks klansmen could
Speaker 3: have gotten doctor King of Montgomery. They could have got
Speaker 3: him in Reachville, Georgia. They could have gotten him in Birmingham.
Speaker 3: They could have got him in Saint Augustine Selma, Chicago,
Speaker 3: walking the two hundred and twenty one mile distance from
Speaker 3: Memphis to Jackson at the March against Fear. But no,
Speaker 3: they don't get him until he is opposing the Vietnam
Speaker 3: War in April of nineteen sixty seven. For the very
Speaker 3: last year. They wait and get him when he proposes
Speaker 3: on December fourth, nineteen sixty seven to the Poor People's Campaign,
Speaker 3: where he wants to bring black and white people who
Speaker 3: are stricken by poverty to the nation's capital and to
Speaker 3: demand that the country, you know, write the check to
Speaker 3: the people out in their backyard versus an a war.
Speaker 3: I think that the story that we've been given for
Speaker 3: the past fifty three years is just fictional. It's laughable
Speaker 3: in certain areas that this limon was sold to the
Speaker 3: American public, that this insignificant man is James Olray was
Speaker 3: able to kill Martin Luther King Junior standing on the
Speaker 3: balcony of a Memphis hotel room, and to flee and
Speaker 3: get away untouched, not once. At the end of the day,
Speaker 3: when we look at it, the people who hated him
Speaker 3: the most yetbi who was committed to discrediting him, to
Speaker 3: destroy him, who urged him to commit suicide in January
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty five, are the same people responsible for investigating
Speaker 3: his death. If that's done a disservice to justice in
Speaker 3: this country, I don't know it is. And I feel
Speaker 3: that the story will never rest, and I will never
Speaker 3: rest until we get it to the bottom of it,
Speaker 3: until we give the justice that's due and served to
Speaker 3: doctor King's family into history.
Speaker 5: One of my court reporters was down at the Shelby
Speaker 5: County Courthouse and said there was a British English producer
Speaker 5: named Jack Saltman there and he was going to be
Speaker 5: doing this teletrial that never occurred, the trial of James
Speaker 5: Earl Ray. I thought it was a hoax at first,
Speaker 5: but I threw on my coat, ran down seven blocks
Speaker 5: on a cold winter's day, and there was Jack Saltman
Speaker 5: with contract in hand. He said, I need a real
Speaker 5: time court reporting for this trial I'm doing. It's going
Speaker 5: to be a real trial for all intents and purposes,
Speaker 5: but it will have no judicial weight. Trial of James
Speaker 5: Earl Ray is what it was called.
Speaker 2: I'm in Memphis, a block away from the Formula Rainbow
Speaker 2: Tel talking to Brian de Minski, who is a court
Speaker 2: reporter and someone who has lived in Memphis.
Speaker 5: For most of his life.
Speaker 2: For the last three decades, he's had a front row
Speaker 2: seat for some of the more important events in the
Speaker 2: ongoing challenge to the story of how Martin Luther King
Speaker 2: was murdered. As we just heard, Brian's entrance into the
Speaker 2: case began when he offered himself as a court reporter
Speaker 2: to an English producer who was attempting to stage a.
Speaker 5: Mock trial of James Earl Ray.
Speaker 2: The trial was to mimic in all possible ways a
Speaker 2: real trial, with a retired federal judge presiding, attorneys arguing
Speaker 2: both sides, and an impartial jury to hear the evidence
Speaker 2: and to come to a verdict. This is in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety three. An edited tape of the trial was televised
Speaker 2: on HBO on the twenty fifth anniversary of the murder
Speaker 2: of Martin Luther King.
Speaker 5: It was a little surreal doing my job as a
Speaker 5: court reporter, but so that my left is a track
Speaker 5: with a journey on it and a big television camera
Speaker 5: filming me. It was cool stuff. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 8: And who were the attorneys involved?
Speaker 5: Bill Pepper, William Pepper and Pickman Ewing Junior, who was
Speaker 5: our United States District Attorney for the Western District of
Speaker 5: Tennessee prior to that he had left that post and
Speaker 5: they hired him as the prosecutor against versus Bill. James
Speaker 5: Rolry tested via satellite for two full days and one
Speaker 5: of the days was a vigorous cross examination by Hickman
Speaker 5: Ewing Jr. The jury was sequestered every evening. It was
Speaker 5: done airtight, better than the ones that I actually would
Speaker 5: handle in my other court reporting life.
Speaker 2: And for our listeners who were not in class that day,
Speaker 2: what was the result of the trial.
Speaker 5: That Ray was not guilty of the assassination of Martin
Speaker 5: Luther King?
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell us about Bill Pepper? What was he like?
Speaker 5: He was very difficult during that entire time. He was frankly,
Speaker 5: he was an ass to everybody. And as you and
Speaker 5: I know, he's a charming, wonderful man. But during that
Speaker 5: trial it was so intense because he was having his
Speaker 5: shot now. He was extremely intense and he was difficult
Speaker 5: to everybody. He even made his co consul cry during
Speaker 5: the trial. April Ferguson made her cry because I don't
Speaker 5: know what the issue was, so she left the table
Speaker 5: during one of the days in tears.
Speaker 8: Did you feel going into the HBO trial that there
Speaker 8: was something wrong with the King murder or did you
Speaker 8: basically think that Ray had done ed? What was your
Speaker 8: mindset before you went in or did it change during
Speaker 8: the trial.
Speaker 5: I had an open mind. As the days unfolded, though,
Speaker 5: I was just astounded at what I didn't know and
Speaker 5: then what I was learning.
Speaker 8: What witnesses stick out in your mind from that trial, Well,
Speaker 8: there's there's Lieutenant Hamby who is sent to a coroner
Speaker 8: of Francisco's office to pick up the slug and bring
Speaker 8: it back to Director Holloman's office, the head of Fire
Speaker 8: in place of Memphis.
Speaker 5: He saw it was an intact bullet. And now even
Speaker 5: at the Civil Rights Museum across the street from where
Speaker 5: we're at, there was this three fragments of a bullet.
Speaker 5: I recall they were going to put Lloyd Jowers on
Speaker 5: the stand. I think he actually was on the stand,
Speaker 5: and there were certain questions that Judge Frankel said, we're
Speaker 5: not going there. You're not going to ask this. Well,
Speaker 5: Pepper tried to ask it anyway. He asked, mister Jowers, well,
Speaker 5: you know what were you doing behind your bar and
Speaker 5: grilla in that day? And Judge Frankel said, you'll see
Speaker 5: me in chambers right now. And they went into the chambers,
Speaker 5: hic Youing and Jowers, lawyer Lewis Garrison and Bill and
Speaker 5: they came back out and they took Jowers off the stand.
Speaker 8: Frankel had some objection to asking Jowers whether he was
Speaker 8: involved or what he might have been doing.
Speaker 5: Correct now. During the HbA trial is when I first
Speaker 5: saw the photograph of the open window where they alleged
Speaker 5: ray what fired the shot from in the rooming house.
Speaker 5: Sergeant Papia testified and he said that he came upon
Speaker 5: the scene at approximately six point thirty and goes up
Speaker 5: to the rooming house and then requisitions a photographer to
Speaker 5: come up there. So that's the exact position of the window.
Speaker 5: And in the Civil Rights Museum there is a photograph
Speaker 5: of that on the wall. And when you look at
Speaker 5: that window, it is open. We couldn't go in the
Speaker 5: bathroom and measure it three four inches max. If you
Speaker 5: take the Remington game Master with scope and you put
Speaker 5: it into that window sill, the scope then a butts
Speaker 5: into the wood of the window sill. That's the first
Speaker 5: time I came across that evidence. After the HBO trial,
Speaker 5: we left shaking hands and he went on his way.
Speaker 5: I went on my way, thinking I'd never hear from
Speaker 5: him again. About three years later, he calls me up
Speaker 5: out of the blue and says, I need to use
Speaker 5: your services and your conference room, Brian, and I want
Speaker 5: you to be the court reporter. We have another trial
Speaker 5: coming up, a civil trial involving doctor King's death, and
Speaker 5: this one will be in Shelby County Circuit Court, and
Speaker 5: we need to take some depositions. Can you do that?
Speaker 5: And of course I said yes, And it was a
Speaker 5: different William Pepper this time around. I like to say
Speaker 5: that once that aired on HBO and national television, it
Speaker 5: shook things loose because people saw that and they said
Speaker 5: I was there that day too, or I know this,
Speaker 5: and they started contacting William Pepper or others saying I'd
Speaker 5: like to come forth and give you my testimony of
Speaker 5: what happened. So that was a real watershed event for
Speaker 5: the case.
Speaker 8: So who did you depose?
Speaker 5: We had a series of people like Glinda Grabo, the
Speaker 5: captain of the fire station, Carthel Whedon, taxi drivers. We
Speaker 5: deposed the Jowers. Although I didn't do Jowers deposition, one
Speaker 5: of my associates did. At that day. A lot of
Speaker 5: the people that appear in the ninety nine trial were deposed. First.
Speaker 8: Now, you said you deposed Glinda Grabo. Tell me about
Speaker 8: Glenda Grabo, Well.
Speaker 5: She was extremely nervous. She was going to testify a trial,
Speaker 5: but she became ill. She didn't want to take the
Speaker 5: stand in a public forum. But she did give her deposition.
Speaker 5: It speaks for itself. But she tied in the fact
Speaker 5: that she knew Raoul the operative that we had learned
Speaker 5: that was raised operative leading him around the country.
Speaker 8: I'm kind of interested in your perception of her as
Speaker 8: a person. Did she have some reason to come and
Speaker 8: make up a story that you're aware of?
Speaker 5: I sensed her she was fearing for her life just
Speaker 5: giving her deposition. I mean, she was extremely nervous, and
Speaker 5: Pepper had a kind of draw out from her by
Speaker 5: this point that William Pepper is representing the King family,
Speaker 5: not James Alray. They've come to him and they said,
Speaker 5: you know, we know you're onto something. We believe what
Speaker 5: you've got. We'd like to retain you for the civil trial.
Speaker 5: What was it like.
Speaker 8: I don't know being there with Coreta Scott King.
Speaker 5: I'm not a big spiritual person, but when Missus King,
Speaker 5: she was the first witness when she took the stand,
Speaker 5: the jury hadn't come out yet, and the core reporters
Speaker 5: spot was right in front of the witness stand, so
Speaker 5: Missus King was standing there and I introduced myself and
Speaker 5: we chatted for a moment, and she had this angelic
Speaker 5: glow about her, just a specially touched person. And again
Speaker 5: I'm not spiritual, but she had just a glower aura
Speaker 5: that she was unique.
Speaker 2: We are listening to a conversation that I had this
Speaker 2: past summer with court reporter Brian Domnski, who's been involved
Speaker 2: in the King case in one way or another for
Speaker 2: thirty years. He has told us how he was brought
Speaker 2: in as court reporter for the nineteen ninety three hbo
Speaker 2: Mont trial, which found James Earl Ray not guilty of
Speaker 2: murdering Martin Luther King. Now we served the same function
Speaker 2: in the nineteen ninety nine civil trial King Family versus Showers,
Speaker 2: which found that doctor King had been killed by a conspiracy.
Speaker 2: But in the twenty plus years following the civil trial,
Speaker 2: Dominski participated in or was witnessed to a half dozen
Speaker 2: events that brought new understanding to the murder of doctor King.
Speaker 2: One of those events was something Dominski did on his own,
Speaker 2: the publication of the entire transcript of the ninety nine
Speaker 2: civil trial.
Speaker 5: It took me a good five years because I was
Speaker 5: fearful too that if I put this out, particularly under
Speaker 5: my name in Memphis I'd have lawyers saying I'm never
Speaker 5: using Dominski again. I finally came to the conclusion. I said,
Speaker 5: somebody's going to find this transcript in my attic one
Speaker 5: day after I'm deceased and go, oh my god, this
Speaker 5: is the ninety nine King trial, and then read it
Speaker 5: and go, wait a second. They've just proved that it
Speaker 5: wasn't James, all right.
Speaker 2: The book is titled The Thirteenth Juror, and anyone can
Speaker 2: buy it online. It is seven hundred and fifty pages,
Speaker 2: a complete record of the civil trial, and it was
Speaker 2: a has helped me in the making of this podcast.
Speaker 2: Another unique contribution by Domnski was his in depth interview
Speaker 2: of Lewis Garrison, the lawyer for the self confessed conspirator
Speaker 2: Lloyd Jowers.
Speaker 5: So we have Lewis Garrison, who represented Lloyd Jowers from
Speaker 5: approximately nineteen seventy two, and he was his lawyer for
Speaker 5: the HBO trial. He was a lawyer for the ninety
Speaker 5: nine trial. I know Lewis. He's a Memphis lawyer. I'd
Speaker 5: known him over the years. We would chat about the
Speaker 5: case because we both intimately involved. So in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 5: Lewis calls me he says, Brian, because of your involvement
Speaker 5: in the case and being licensed corport as stenographer, I'd
Speaker 5: like you to come to my office. I want to
Speaker 5: tell you everything I know. Lewis is about eighty nine
Speaker 5: at this point eighty seven, and I don't know if
Speaker 5: it's a Catharsis or what. But I videoed it as well,
Speaker 5: since wasn't an illegal proceeding pending anymore, I just called
Speaker 5: it a video affidavit of Lewis Garrison not attaching in
Speaker 5: I llegal proceeding. But yet I swore him in under oath,
Speaker 5: and he being a member of the Memphis barr he
Speaker 5: felt that oath was binding. And he testified for about
Speaker 5: an hour and a half and he spoke of everything
Speaker 5: that mister Jowers had told him over the years as
Speaker 5: his lawyer. But he said the Jowers had received one
Speaker 5: hundred thousand dollars from mister Loberto and bought the cab
Speaker 5: company shortly some time after the assassination, and how he
Speaker 5: could have never done that owning a greasy spoon bar
Speaker 5: and grill, and he didn't have one hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 5: to buy that. And Lewis Garrison said he bought the
Speaker 5: cab company with the money he got for acting as
Speaker 5: the facilitator. Lewis had said when Lloyd Jowers passing away
Speaker 5: on his deathbed, he called Lewis up and the day
Speaker 5: before he died he told Lewis that yes, I was
Speaker 5: a shooter. Now, that's in juxtaposition to two other stories
Speaker 5: that we know.
Speaker 2: Dominski was also in the room with Bill Pepper and
Speaker 2: Martin king Thid for the two thousand and three sworn
Speaker 2: deposition of Lenny Curtis.
Speaker 5: Lenny Curtis was a janitor at the MPD shooting range
Speaker 5: and Jim and on the day of the assassination. Lenny
Speaker 5: Curtis testified that Frank Strauser had came in early that
Speaker 5: day and was carrying a rifle and went down to
Speaker 5: the shooting range and was constantly firing away. Around noon,
Speaker 5: Director Hollman, Mayor Loeb and two people he doesn't know
Speaker 5: in suits and ties come and meet with Frank Strauser
Speaker 5: in a conference room. He's next door sweeping. He's trying
Speaker 5: to listen in and he doesn't quite pick up on
Speaker 5: what they're talking about, but they leave. Strausser then goes
Speaker 5: and practices a little longer and then leaves in a
Speaker 5: sports car with the rifle.
Speaker 2: As we heard Curtis tell us in episode eleven, he
Speaker 2: felt certain that Strausser was intending to shoot doctor King.
Speaker 2: Curtis tried to call a minister he knew to pass
Speaker 2: the warning along, but he couldn't get through. Curtis told
Speaker 2: his story in the presence of Martin King II, with
Speaker 2: a promise that no one could listen to it or
Speaker 2: even hear of it until after he had died. But
Speaker 2: after Curtis did die, Bill Pepper sought out Frank Strausser
Speaker 2: and offered him five hundred if he would have.
Speaker 5: Lunch with him.
Speaker 2: Strausser agrees, and the two men meet and Brian Demnsky
Speaker 2: is sitting at a nearby table.
Speaker 5: Ahead of time. Bill asked that I have him wired
Speaker 5: for sound, and we did a rudimentary attempt at that
Speaker 5: recorder in his pocket, but Bill welcomed him and they
Speaker 5: sat down and they had about a forty five minute
Speaker 5: chat about what life was like in nineteen sixty eight
Speaker 5: in Memphis and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: In episode eleven, you can hear our recreation of Pepper's
Speaker 2: conversation with Frank Strausser that Brian de Minsky overheard and
Speaker 2: taped via recorder in Bill Pepper's shirt pocket. Dominski was
Speaker 2: also in the room, this time as a court reporter.
Speaker 2: During the stunning seven hours sworn deposition by Ronnie Lee Atkins.
Speaker 5: Ronnie Lee was a fascinating interesting man. He was an
Speaker 5: iron horseman, biker and his family. They were the Dixie
Speaker 5: Mafia family, not mafia as an Italian mafia. Dixie Mafias
Speaker 5: in Southern tough guys that do things, illicit things, and
Speaker 5: they still exist. He gave his deposition for seven hours.
Speaker 5: At first I was skeptical. He almost looked like Hulk Hogan.
Speaker 5: He's had this flowing hair, big mustache. I had to
Speaker 5: be two eighty but really built strong. But as he
Speaker 5: gave his testimony over those seven hours, he had so
Speaker 5: many intricate Memphis facts. No, he's from Memphis, so it's understandable,
Speaker 5: but he had so much detail that he couldn't have
Speaker 5: possibly made this up. Bill. He was telling the story
Speaker 5: of his life and his family's life back in the day.
Speaker 2: As we were beginning to pack up, I asked Brian
Speaker 2: Demnsky if looking back, he felt encouraged by all the
Speaker 2: people that have braved the storm and come forward and
Speaker 2: all the evidence they have brought with them, or was
Speaker 2: he discouraged by how immune to it all the lie
Speaker 2: surrounding King's murder seemed to be he was upbeat.
Speaker 5: Pepper would like this, I'm a wax poetic, but doctor
Speaker 5: King used to like to quote the truth crushed Earth
Speaker 5: will rise again. So as the years passed, it is rising.
Speaker 5: It's coming out. But we're not totally there now. The
Speaker 5: ninety nine Trials a wonderful template, and there's more, of course,
Speaker 5: the weave on Earth, and there's still a little bit
Speaker 5: more that we don't have, but we did a pretty
Speaker 5: good job of those two trials.
Speaker 2: This is Bill Klaber, creator of the MLK Tapes. Before
Speaker 2: we walk away from the podcast, I wanted to play
Speaker 2: the interviews you just heard of two people who have
Speaker 2: had a front row seat as this story has played
Speaker 2: out in Memphis. For most of us, the murder of
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King is something that took place over fifty
Speaker 2: years ago, but for Ryan Jones and Brian Deminski, it
Speaker 2: is a battle between truth and lies that is still
Speaker 2: very much alive today. If you are with us this far,
Speaker 2: I would like to think that you now know a
Speaker 2: great deal more about the murder of Martin Luther King
Speaker 2: than you did before, and considering the importance of the
Speaker 2: man murdered, I hope that feels odd to you, and
Speaker 2: it should, because US Americans think King was killed by
Speaker 2: alone assassin driven by racial hatred. They think this because
Speaker 2: for fifty years, the American media has seen fit to
Speaker 2: champion the single corrupt story that was provided to them
Speaker 2: and to allow for nothing else. So, for example, if
Speaker 2: you have written a book that challenges the official version
Speaker 2: of this crime, as Bill Pepper has done, your book,
Speaker 2: no matter how carefully vetted, will not even be reviewed.
Speaker 2: Polite people don't talk about the.
Speaker 5: Murder of doctor King.
Speaker 2: But podcasts offer a way around those gatekeepers. So we
Speaker 2: have put the evidence as we know it into audio
Speaker 2: episodes and shot them out into the ether, where from
Speaker 2: now on.
Speaker 5: Anyone can access them.
Speaker 2: Anyone can hear how Percy Foreman was paid to make
Speaker 2: sure that James Earl Ray pled guilty, and they can
Speaker 2: ask themselves how did this happen and why? And of course,
Speaker 2: none of this could have happened if Bill Pepper hadn't
Speaker 2: decided to investigate the murder of his friend Martin King,
Speaker 2: so I want to thank Bill again for those efforts
Speaker 2: and for his bravery. I also want to thank Donald
Speaker 2: Albright and Jamie Olbright of Tenderfoot TV, and Matt Frederick
Speaker 2: and Trevor Young of iHeartMedia for the belief and the
Speaker 2: importance of this story and for their confidence in me.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for their exceptional talent and for the spirit
Speaker 2: they brought with it. It's not every day that one
Speaker 2: gets to shatter a lie as big as this one.
Speaker 9: Thanks for listening to The MLK Tapes, a production of
Speaker 9: iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. This podcast is not specifically endorsed
Speaker 9: by the King Family or the King of State. The
Speaker 9: MLK Tapes is written and hosted by Bill Clayber, Matt Frederick,
Speaker 9: and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf of iHeartRadio,
Speaker 9: with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Fonk. Donald Albright and
Speaker 9: Payne Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
Speaker 9: with producers Jamie Albright and Meredith Dedman. Original music by
Speaker 9: Makeup and Vanity Set. Cover art by Mister Soul two
Speaker 9: one six with photography by Artemis Jenkins. Special thanks to
Speaker 9: Owin Rosenbaum and Grace Royer at UTA, the Nord Group,
Speaker 9: Beck Median Marketing, Envision Business Management, and Station sixteen. If
Speaker 9: you have questions, you can visit our website, the emailktapes
Speaker 9: dot com. We posted photos and videos related to the
Speaker 9: podcast on our social media accounts. You can check them
Speaker 9: out at the emailk Tapes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio
Speaker 9: and Tenderfoot TV, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 9: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,