1 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:15,690 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,850 --> 00:00:20,169 Speaker 2: Hi are you ell? 3 00:00:20,610 --> 00:00:23,770 Speaker 1: I'm good. How are you good? Thank you for doing 4 00:00:24,050 --> 00:00:26,489 Speaker 1: the chip or exchange you're now hearing is between me 5 00:00:26,770 --> 00:00:29,889 Speaker 1: and Curtis Sittenfeld, the best selling novelist and author of 6 00:00:29,970 --> 00:00:33,170 Speaker 1: books like Prep American Wife and You Think It. 7 00:00:33,450 --> 00:00:35,130 Speaker 2: I'll say it, nice to see you. 8 00:00:35,370 --> 00:00:37,930 Speaker 1: Nice to see you. Although Curtis and I live in 9 00:00:37,970 --> 00:00:40,769 Speaker 1: the same city, I'm seeing her over a zoom call. 10 00:00:41,170 --> 00:00:43,170 Speaker 1: We sometimes ask guests on the show to talk to 11 00:00:43,250 --> 00:00:46,130 Speaker 1: us from a small closet where the sound quality is best, 12 00:00:46,690 --> 00:00:49,970 Speaker 1: but that isn't the case today. Curtis Sittenfeld is seated 13 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,970 Speaker 1: at her desk, her writer's desk. When I heard that 14 00:00:54,130 --> 00:00:56,529 Speaker 1: we were going to put Curtis Sittenfeld in a closet, 15 00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:00,370 Speaker 1: I was like, nobody puts. That would be a shame 16 00:01:00,490 --> 00:01:05,649 Speaker 1: to all podcasting everywhere. Curtis and I are going to 17 00:01:05,650 --> 00:01:08,810 Speaker 1: talk about her latest novel, Rodham. Right after the break. 18 00:01:16,490 --> 00:01:20,330 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Curtis Sittenfeld about her novel Rodham, which 19 00:01:20,370 --> 00:01:22,970 Speaker 1: deals with many of the themes that we explore on Heavyweight, 20 00:01:23,250 --> 00:01:25,810 Speaker 1: things like returning to the past to change it and 21 00:01:25,850 --> 00:01:27,770 Speaker 1: the question of what our lives might have been like 22 00:01:27,890 --> 00:01:31,450 Speaker 1: if we'd made one decision Differently, Rodham is a novel 23 00:01:31,450 --> 00:01:34,570 Speaker 1: about what Hillary Clinton's life and political career might have 24 00:01:34,610 --> 00:01:37,770 Speaker 1: looked like if she had never married Bill Clinton. 25 00:01:40,770 --> 00:01:45,410 Speaker 2: So, in real life, he proposed twice and she said no, 26 00:01:45,730 --> 00:01:48,810 Speaker 2: and then she said yes the third time. And I 27 00:01:48,810 --> 00:01:51,930 Speaker 2: imagine what would have happened if she had said no 28 00:01:52,370 --> 00:01:54,610 Speaker 2: the third time as well. 29 00:01:54,930 --> 00:01:58,290 Speaker 1: And that's when the timeline bifurcates. It becomes an alternate history. 30 00:01:58,770 --> 00:02:01,330 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly after. 31 00:02:01,090 --> 00:02:05,370 Speaker 1: Twenty sixteen, it felt like people did not want to 32 00:02:05,410 --> 00:02:10,530 Speaker 1: hear anything more about Hillary Clinton. You had the opposite reaction. 33 00:02:12,010 --> 00:02:16,769 Speaker 2: I wanted to hear four hundred pages more about her. Yeah. No, Well, 34 00:02:16,810 --> 00:02:22,810 Speaker 2: I think that, like it's very strange when she makes 35 00:02:23,010 --> 00:02:26,250 Speaker 2: a public statement or does like a prominent interview, there 36 00:02:26,330 --> 00:02:30,170 Speaker 2: almost always will be this backlash where people will kind 37 00:02:30,210 --> 00:02:35,169 Speaker 2: of say, like go away, and which I don't. It's 38 00:02:35,210 --> 00:02:39,850 Speaker 2: hard for me to think of any parallel that exists 39 00:02:40,410 --> 00:02:43,410 Speaker 2: for a man in the public eye or a man 40 00:02:43,570 --> 00:02:47,169 Speaker 2: who's held public office. You know, like we're almost saying 41 00:02:47,210 --> 00:02:51,130 Speaker 2: like does this woman deserve to exist, does she deserve attention? 42 00:02:51,290 --> 00:02:54,130 Speaker 2: Does she deserve a public voice? And it's kind of 43 00:02:54,170 --> 00:02:59,609 Speaker 2: like that is ludicrous if that's like the starting question. 44 00:02:59,650 --> 00:03:02,130 Speaker 2: I mean, like you don't have to read a book 45 00:03:02,250 --> 00:03:05,490 Speaker 2: she writes or listen to a speech she gives, but 46 00:03:05,610 --> 00:03:09,410 Speaker 2: like she's entitled to write them and she's entitled to speak. 47 00:03:11,170 --> 00:03:13,090 Speaker 2: I don't have strong feelings about any of this. 48 00:03:14,210 --> 00:03:16,530 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was struck in reading the novel 49 00:03:17,330 --> 00:03:20,090 Speaker 1: by the fact that it is written in the first person. 50 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:22,810 Speaker 1: You know, you are the eye of the novel. You 51 00:03:22,890 --> 00:03:27,810 Speaker 1: are Hillary, And even hearing you talk about her right now, 52 00:03:27,890 --> 00:03:32,450 Speaker 1: it feels like there is this identification that you feel 53 00:03:32,450 --> 00:03:34,490 Speaker 1: with her, and it's almost as though you have a 54 00:03:34,490 --> 00:03:37,610 Speaker 1: certain kind of like, you know, love for her. 55 00:03:38,330 --> 00:03:42,690 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I definitely do. I mean I've never met her, 56 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:48,290 Speaker 2: and I think it's relatively unlikely that I will, but 57 00:03:48,410 --> 00:03:53,370 Speaker 2: I certainly respect and admire her, and I feel like 58 00:03:53,570 --> 00:03:57,250 Speaker 2: the person that I think she is based on everything 59 00:03:57,330 --> 00:04:02,450 Speaker 2: I've read, is really different from the public image of 60 00:04:02,490 --> 00:04:05,890 Speaker 2: her in a way that does kind of hurt my heart. 61 00:04:06,410 --> 00:04:09,330 Speaker 1: Hmmm, yeah, yeah, it just I guess it underlines just 62 00:04:09,370 --> 00:04:12,290 Speaker 1: how weird it is to have a public life in 63 00:04:12,330 --> 00:04:12,970 Speaker 1: that way. 64 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:15,250 Speaker 2: Which I actually think that's one of the things that 65 00:04:15,290 --> 00:04:19,609 Speaker 2: I'm really interested in, where I'm very interested in the 66 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:23,330 Speaker 2: sort of intimate moments of these really famous people. Like 67 00:04:23,370 --> 00:04:28,489 Speaker 2: it's almost like being interested in what we'll never see, 68 00:04:28,529 --> 00:04:29,890 Speaker 2: what the public never sees. 69 00:04:30,369 --> 00:04:35,409 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And I mean, on that note, I would 70 00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:37,249 Speaker 1: like to ask you to read a passage from your 71 00:04:37,330 --> 00:04:42,529 Speaker 1: novel that definitely qualifies as one of those intimate private moments. Okay, 72 00:04:42,890 --> 00:04:44,929 Speaker 1: And I'll just say that part of the pleasure of 73 00:04:44,969 --> 00:04:48,450 Speaker 1: this passage is in imagining the real Bill and the 74 00:04:48,450 --> 00:04:51,650 Speaker 1: real Hillary speaking the dialogue that you've written for them, 75 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:54,409 Speaker 1: because we have such a strong mental image of who 76 00:04:54,409 --> 00:04:58,770 Speaker 1: they are. So okay, So again, in the alternate universe 77 00:04:58,770 --> 00:05:02,249 Speaker 1: of the book, Hillary and Bill never get married. Bill 78 00:05:02,729 --> 00:05:08,010 Speaker 1: leaves politics to become this rich tech dot com mogul 79 00:05:08,049 --> 00:05:11,210 Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and Hillary goes on to have this 80 00:05:11,289 --> 00:05:14,850 Speaker 1: impressive political career. Yes, And the passage I'm going to 81 00:05:14,890 --> 00:05:17,570 Speaker 1: ask you to read takes place in two thousand and five, 82 00:05:18,010 --> 00:05:20,849 Speaker 1: as Hillary is gearing up to run for president in 83 00:05:20,890 --> 00:05:23,089 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and she runs into Bill by 84 00:05:23,169 --> 00:05:25,969 Speaker 1: chance at an event and they reconnect, and a couple 85 00:05:26,010 --> 00:05:28,610 Speaker 1: of weeks later, Bill invites her over for dinner at 86 00:05:28,609 --> 00:05:32,529 Speaker 1: his penthouse. They're both single and Hillary hasn't had sex 87 00:05:32,570 --> 00:05:35,049 Speaker 1: in a long time, and she's excited because she thinks 88 00:05:35,049 --> 00:05:39,290 Speaker 1: Bill has invited her over to sleep with him. Yeah, 89 00:05:39,570 --> 00:05:43,010 Speaker 1: but things don't end up going the way that she expects. 90 00:05:43,969 --> 00:05:46,570 Speaker 1: So you're going to read this passage, and just a 91 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:49,369 Speaker 1: small heads up for those of you listening with kids, 92 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:52,849 Speaker 1: there are some bad words, some famously bad words, that 93 00:05:52,929 --> 00:05:57,409 Speaker 1: we are not going to bleep, So without further ado, 94 00:05:57,650 --> 00:06:01,010 Speaker 1: we'll pick it up just when Hillary arrives. 95 00:06:05,289 --> 00:06:08,690 Speaker 2: Bill's apartment was a penthouse in nob Hill. When I 96 00:06:08,690 --> 00:06:12,210 Speaker 2: stepped off the dedicated elevator, which itself was large enough 97 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:15,529 Speaker 2: to include a bench and fancy enough to include a chandelier, 98 00:06:16,089 --> 00:06:18,809 Speaker 2: I was in a vast open space that led on 99 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:21,089 Speaker 2: the left to a kitchen and on the right to 100 00:06:21,169 --> 00:06:24,450 Speaker 2: a living room. Straight in front of me were floor 101 00:06:24,529 --> 00:06:28,570 Speaker 2: to ceiling windows overlooking the Financial District, including the Trans 102 00:06:28,609 --> 00:06:32,169 Speaker 2: America Building, and beyond it the San Francisco Bay, the 103 00:06:32,210 --> 00:06:37,010 Speaker 2: Bay Bridge, and Oakland. You made it. Bill approached from 104 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:40,089 Speaker 2: the kitchen wearing a royal blue apron over a dress 105 00:06:40,130 --> 00:06:44,729 Speaker 2: shirt and jeans. He really was incredibly handsome, tall and 106 00:06:44,810 --> 00:06:48,929 Speaker 2: slim and white haired, with that familiar smile. I set 107 00:06:48,969 --> 00:06:51,449 Speaker 2: my purse next to a red porcelain lamp, and he 108 00:06:51,570 --> 00:06:53,689 Speaker 2: leaned in to hug me and kissed the top of 109 00:06:53,729 --> 00:06:57,969 Speaker 2: my head. Upbeat classical music played in the background, no 110 00:06:58,089 --> 00:07:00,489 Speaker 2: doubt on a state of the art sound system, and 111 00:07:00,570 --> 00:07:04,450 Speaker 2: the sweet smell of something baking filled the air. I said, 112 00:07:04,609 --> 00:07:08,010 Speaker 2: quite a view you've got, he grinned. Not bad for 113 00:07:08,089 --> 00:07:11,569 Speaker 2: a boy from Hope ark Saha, I grinned back at him. 114 00:07:11,690 --> 00:07:15,210 Speaker 2: Does that country boyshtick still work for you? Better than ever? 115 00:07:15,570 --> 00:07:18,850 Speaker 2: But not with everyone? Apparently you look great by the way, 116 00:07:19,610 --> 00:07:22,570 Speaker 2: you look great too, I said, California must agree with you. 117 00:07:23,610 --> 00:07:26,369 Speaker 2: He opened a bottle of his own wine, a red, 118 00:07:26,530 --> 00:07:29,850 Speaker 2: saying it's one of my favorites, very velvety but structured. 119 00:07:30,530 --> 00:07:33,530 Speaker 2: When we made eye contact, he added to saying, that 120 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:37,330 Speaker 2: make me sound sophisticated or like an asshole? Why choose? 121 00:07:37,369 --> 00:07:40,210 Speaker 2: I said, and he laughed, I'm teasing. I said, you 122 00:07:40,250 --> 00:07:42,410 Speaker 2: don't sound like an asshole, and I'd love a glass 123 00:07:42,450 --> 00:07:46,889 Speaker 2: of something velvety and structured. After he'd poured, we clinked 124 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:50,770 Speaker 2: our glasses together to the past and the present, he said, 125 00:07:50,929 --> 00:07:54,850 Speaker 2: and I said, here here. I sat on a barstool 126 00:07:54,890 --> 00:07:57,330 Speaker 2: at the Granite Island while he stood facing me, with 127 00:07:57,369 --> 00:08:00,570 Speaker 2: the bay behind him, dicing an onion on a cutting board. 128 00:08:01,290 --> 00:08:04,290 Speaker 2: Using the knife, he swept the diced onion into the 129 00:08:04,330 --> 00:08:07,570 Speaker 2: pan and it sizzled a little. When did you learn 130 00:08:07,610 --> 00:08:11,130 Speaker 2: to cook, I asked, After my second divorce, I decided 131 00:08:11,170 --> 00:08:13,009 Speaker 2: not to be one of those bachelors with nothing but 132 00:08:13,050 --> 00:08:15,250 Speaker 2: a six pack and a jar of mustard in the fridge. 133 00:08:15,570 --> 00:08:18,210 Speaker 2: Turns out cooking is kind of fun. I'll bet I 134 00:08:18,250 --> 00:08:21,449 Speaker 2: haven't touched a stove in a decade. I said, would 135 00:08:21,450 --> 00:08:24,530 Speaker 2: you like for tonight to be the night? He said yes, 136 00:08:24,610 --> 00:08:27,850 Speaker 2: I thought, but not with the stove. I said, you 137 00:08:27,890 --> 00:08:30,009 Speaker 2: look like you've got things under control. What are you 138 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:34,890 Speaker 2: making anyway? You ever had a ratitudey tart full disclosure. 139 00:08:35,010 --> 00:08:37,050 Speaker 2: The crust that's in the oven as we speak was 140 00:08:37,090 --> 00:08:40,730 Speaker 2: made earlier today by my housekeeper, Elena. I still want 141 00:08:40,730 --> 00:08:42,930 Speaker 2: you to be impressed by my slicing and dicing, though 142 00:08:43,570 --> 00:08:47,770 Speaker 2: I'm very impressed, I said. The smell of the baking 143 00:08:47,890 --> 00:08:52,530 Speaker 2: crust competed pleasantly with the savory scent of the simmering vegetables. 144 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:55,050 Speaker 2: I was hungry, but I didn't want to be full 145 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:58,290 Speaker 2: if we had sex. I took another sip of wine 146 00:08:58,410 --> 00:09:01,050 Speaker 2: and said, do you remember when you told me about 147 00:09:01,090 --> 00:09:04,210 Speaker 2: going home with Kirby Haiti for Thanksgiving your first year 148 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:07,730 Speaker 2: at Yale. You were very impressed that his parents' penthouse 149 00:09:07,770 --> 00:09:11,490 Speaker 2: had its own elevator. And look at you now. It's funny, 150 00:09:11,490 --> 00:09:13,810 Speaker 2: he said, because I don't think I ever ride up 151 00:09:13,850 --> 00:09:18,490 Speaker 2: here without recalling that. He looked at me intently. What 152 00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:20,970 Speaker 2: you and I had, he said, I never found that 153 00:09:21,050 --> 00:09:24,410 Speaker 2: with anyone else. I mourned it for so many years. 154 00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:27,610 Speaker 2: I did too, I said, And it seems like it 155 00:09:27,650 --> 00:09:29,890 Speaker 2: should be weird as hell to be standing across from 156 00:09:29,970 --> 00:09:32,810 Speaker 2: you right now, he said, but it feels totally natural. 157 00:09:33,530 --> 00:09:38,130 Speaker 2: I agree, I said. The intensity of his expression made 158 00:09:38,130 --> 00:09:42,250 Speaker 2: it difficult to maintain eye contact, and with feigned casualness, 159 00:09:42,410 --> 00:09:44,770 Speaker 2: I said, tell me about a day in the life 160 00:09:44,770 --> 00:09:48,050 Speaker 2: of Bill Clinton. I've got a yoga instructor who comes 161 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:50,370 Speaker 2: here three mornings a week at seven. Is this too 162 00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:53,930 Speaker 2: much detail? I shook my head. So I arrived in 163 00:09:53,970 --> 00:09:56,610 Speaker 2: the office at nine thirty or ten. I've got a driver. 164 00:09:57,050 --> 00:10:00,610 Speaker 2: His smile was sheepish. I'll confess I feel self conscious 165 00:10:00,650 --> 00:10:03,010 Speaker 2: around you with regard to some of this, But a 166 00:10:03,010 --> 00:10:05,850 Speaker 2: lot of our dreams came true, didn't they we've both 167 00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:08,690 Speaker 2: risen to the highest level of our fields or your 168 00:10:08,810 --> 00:10:12,850 Speaker 2: damn near it. My God, if you do become president, Hillary, 169 00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:15,850 Speaker 2: it'll be the greatest fucking thing. You'll be so good 170 00:10:15,890 --> 00:10:18,090 Speaker 2: at it. And just think of making history like that. 171 00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:22,210 Speaker 2: I can't pretend I won't be envious. Honestly, I try 172 00:10:22,210 --> 00:10:24,170 Speaker 2: not to think too much in those terms. I said, 173 00:10:24,570 --> 00:10:26,490 Speaker 2: it makes me feel as if everything that comes out 174 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:29,130 Speaker 2: of my mouth should be written in calligraphy with a 175 00:10:29,210 --> 00:10:34,090 Speaker 2: quill pen, which is immobilizing. I'm not, you know, George Washington, 176 00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:39,290 Speaker 2: not even Georgia Washington. Bell grind is that George's sister, 177 00:10:39,490 --> 00:10:42,050 Speaker 2: I asked, or him when he lets his wig down, 178 00:10:42,130 --> 00:10:47,010 Speaker 2: he replied, we were both smiling. I watched as Bill 179 00:10:47,130 --> 00:10:50,290 Speaker 2: shook some oregano into his palm and dropped it into 180 00:10:50,330 --> 00:10:53,610 Speaker 2: the mixture. Hey, I hear that Tara and Pete Forgod, 181 00:10:53,690 --> 00:10:55,850 Speaker 2: held a fundraiser for you at their house last night. 182 00:10:56,570 --> 00:11:00,450 Speaker 2: News travels fast. I said, the Foregods are terrific. He said. 183 00:11:00,650 --> 00:11:03,410 Speaker 2: I was invited, but I had a conflict, and I thought, Hell, 184 00:11:03,650 --> 00:11:07,050 Speaker 2: I get you all to myself for dinner tonight. There 185 00:11:07,130 --> 00:11:11,450 Speaker 2: is a happiness I felt in this moment, A pure, warm, 186 00:11:11,970 --> 00:11:17,970 Speaker 2: unambivalent animal happiness. I just really really enjoyed being in 187 00:11:18,090 --> 00:11:22,890 Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's company and then sitting there on his barstool 188 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:26,770 Speaker 2: listening to his classical music. I thought, what if I 189 00:11:26,850 --> 00:11:29,610 Speaker 2: didn't run for president, What if I didn't even run 190 00:11:29,650 --> 00:11:33,250 Speaker 2: for Senate again after this term. Let some other woman 191 00:11:33,410 --> 00:11:37,090 Speaker 2: make history while having her clothes and voice and intellect 192 00:11:37,210 --> 00:11:41,810 Speaker 2: and voting record picked apart. Let me have great sex 193 00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:46,570 Speaker 2: and stimulating conversations. Let me travel to foreign countries, not 194 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:50,770 Speaker 2: to meet with dignitaries and eat chicken in ballrooms, but 195 00:11:50,890 --> 00:11:54,970 Speaker 2: to swim in fancy pools at expensive hotels and read 196 00:11:55,130 --> 00:11:59,210 Speaker 2: novels while lying on enormous mattresses. Let me be a 197 00:11:59,210 --> 00:12:03,330 Speaker 2: well paid lawyer or consultant or lobbyist. Let me be 198 00:12:03,410 --> 00:12:09,250 Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's girlfriend again. Let me finally be Bill Clinton's wife. 199 00:12:09,570 --> 00:12:12,929 Speaker 2: Allowed I said, that's true. You do get me all 200 00:12:12,930 --> 00:12:17,170 Speaker 2: to yourself tonight. This is when he said, I have 201 00:12:17,210 --> 00:12:19,930 Speaker 2: a story that I think you'll appreciate. He reached for 202 00:12:19,970 --> 00:12:23,250 Speaker 2: the wine bottle and refilled my glass. You may have 203 00:12:23,330 --> 00:12:26,210 Speaker 2: heard that I've started a foundation. We're still getting our 204 00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:29,010 Speaker 2: sea legs, but we're focusing on all the big issues, 205 00:12:29,370 --> 00:12:34,570 Speaker 2: climate change, poverty biomedical research. Eighteen months ago, I hired 206 00:12:34,610 --> 00:12:37,610 Speaker 2: a woman named Kira Duncan to run the foundation. She 207 00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:40,410 Speaker 2: has a stellar record, went to Stanford for undergrad and 208 00:12:40,450 --> 00:12:43,250 Speaker 2: business school. After b school, she worked for a gay 209 00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:46,250 Speaker 2: rights advocacy group. So I assume she's a lesbian, even 210 00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:52,170 Speaker 2: though she's gorgeous, long red hair, milky white skin, very slender. Really, 211 00:12:52,250 --> 00:12:59,810 Speaker 2: I thought, long red hair, milky white skin, very slender. Now, Riley, 212 00:13:00,050 --> 00:13:02,530 Speaker 2: I said, I've heard that it's possible for a woman 213 00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:06,290 Speaker 2: to be gorgeous and gay at the same time. He laughed. 214 00:13:06,690 --> 00:13:10,170 Speaker 2: Just wait now. I'm not usually in the fount Foundation office, 215 00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:12,890 Speaker 2: but Kira and I talk five six times a week. 216 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:16,370 Speaker 2: She's very on the ball, always prepared, a tireless worker 217 00:13:16,570 --> 00:13:18,250 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. She reminds me of you, 218 00:13:18,890 --> 00:13:21,330 Speaker 2: and she's pretty buttoned up about her personal life, but 219 00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:24,930 Speaker 2: bits and pieces emerge. She does indeed have a female partner, 220 00:13:25,090 --> 00:13:28,250 Speaker 2: a gown named Louise we. Kira and I go to 221 00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:31,330 Speaker 2: Haiti together to meet with Dan Jacobs, who runs Global 222 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:35,090 Speaker 2: Health Mission. Do you know Dan, Yes, I said, Ghim 223 00:13:35,170 --> 00:13:38,610 Speaker 2: does wonderful work. When Kira and I are in Haiti, 224 00:13:38,650 --> 00:13:40,770 Speaker 2: he went on, she tells me, she and Louise want 225 00:13:40,770 --> 00:13:43,250 Speaker 2: to have a baby. They're going back and forth about 226 00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:45,530 Speaker 2: who should carry it and who the donor will be. 227 00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:50,170 Speaker 2: If that's not the quintessential modern problem, huh, well, there 228 00:13:50,170 --> 00:13:54,050 Speaker 2: have always been divisions of childcare, I said. Although I 229 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:56,690 Speaker 2: was speaking in what I hoped was a normal tone, 230 00:13:56,970 --> 00:14:00,210 Speaker 2: my wariness was increasing. I wanted to go back just 231 00:14:00,290 --> 00:14:03,050 Speaker 2: a minute or two to when he'd said, I get 232 00:14:03,090 --> 00:14:07,250 Speaker 2: you all to myself. Now I've met Louise by this point, 233 00:14:07,330 --> 00:14:11,170 Speaker 2: he continued, and she's smart, a tough customer, very butch. 234 00:14:11,890 --> 00:14:14,730 Speaker 2: A few weeks pass and Kira and Louise invite me 235 00:14:14,770 --> 00:14:17,370 Speaker 2: over for brunch and say they have something to ask me. 236 00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:20,650 Speaker 2: They've decided Kia will carry the baby and they want 237 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:24,090 Speaker 2: me to be the sperm donor. Remind me how old 238 00:14:24,170 --> 00:14:27,890 Speaker 2: your kids are now, I said, Alexis is twenty six 239 00:14:27,970 --> 00:14:31,610 Speaker 2: and Ricky is twenty nine. That was a consideration. Absolutely, 240 00:14:31,810 --> 00:14:34,930 Speaker 2: How would this look to them? Ricky is very relaxed, 241 00:14:35,010 --> 00:14:38,410 Speaker 2: very accepting, but Alexis can be judgmental. I say to 242 00:14:38,490 --> 00:14:40,610 Speaker 2: Kia and Louise, let me take a week to think 243 00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:45,290 Speaker 2: about it. Why did I so dislike the turn our 244 00:14:45,330 --> 00:14:49,970 Speaker 2: conversation had taken. Was it jealousy, the reminder of my age, 245 00:14:50,570 --> 00:14:54,730 Speaker 2: or the reminder of Bill's narcissism, as if his sperm, 246 00:14:55,050 --> 00:14:59,810 Speaker 2: his fifty nine year old sperm, was uniquely worthy. The 247 00:14:59,930 --> 00:15:03,210 Speaker 2: day after brunch, Kira calls me up sobbing, he continued, 248 00:15:03,490 --> 00:15:07,010 Speaker 2: She's crying so hard. I can scarcely understand what she's saying, 249 00:15:07,610 --> 00:15:09,850 Speaker 2: but I make out that Louise is accused her of 250 00:15:09,890 --> 00:15:11,770 Speaker 2: wanting me to be the donor as a way of 251 00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:15,810 Speaker 2: creating intimacy with me. Kia says, I felt so angry 252 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:18,250 Speaker 2: when Louise said this. I went for a run, just 253 00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:22,010 Speaker 2: feeling furious, and that's when I realized she's right. I'm 254 00:15:22,050 --> 00:15:25,810 Speaker 2: in love with you. Kia offers to resign effective immediately, 255 00:15:25,930 --> 00:15:29,610 Speaker 2: which I don't allow. Wow, I said, where do things 256 00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:33,810 Speaker 2: stand now? At least the mystery of why I disliked 257 00:15:33,890 --> 00:15:37,650 Speaker 2: hearing all this had been solved. We're taking things slow, 258 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:43,450 Speaker 2: just enjoying being together, not rushing into any decisions. Wait 259 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:47,530 Speaker 2: a second, I said, you're in a relationship with Kira. 260 00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:51,690 Speaker 2: She's not big on labels, Bill said, and here she 261 00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:55,330 Speaker 2: is the sexually fluid individual. She hasn't dated a man 262 00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:58,570 Speaker 2: since she was a teenager. But the energy between us, 263 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:03,610 Speaker 2: the connection, it's truly incredible. Kia's extraordinary in the way 264 00:16:03,610 --> 00:16:07,890 Speaker 2: she sees the world, her creativity and compassion. Hopefully she'll 265 00:16:07,930 --> 00:16:10,370 Speaker 2: pop in later tonight and I can introduce the two 266 00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:15,530 Speaker 2: of you. She'll pop in tonight, I asked. He looked 267 00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:18,250 Speaker 2: at his watch. She has a dinner meeting, so probably 268 00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:23,730 Speaker 2: not before nine, and she is or isn't pregnant. For now, 269 00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:26,330 Speaker 2: We've hit pause on that, he said. We've got a 270 00:16:26,370 --> 00:16:29,370 Speaker 2: trip together to Namibia in November, and we'll discuss it 271 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:33,530 Speaker 2: after we get back. One of the most important lessons 272 00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:38,130 Speaker 2: I've learned in life is this, do not preemptively take 273 00:16:38,290 --> 00:16:42,450 Speaker 2: no for an answer. Do not decide your request has 274 00:16:42,450 --> 00:16:47,250 Speaker 2: been rejected before it officially has. As with so many 275 00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:51,610 Speaker 2: other lessons that involve assertion, this one applies far more 276 00:16:51,650 --> 00:16:54,810 Speaker 2: to women than men. Thus I took a sip of 277 00:16:54,850 --> 00:17:01,210 Speaker 2: wine and said, surely you and Kira aren't monogamous. He squinted. 278 00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:05,210 Speaker 2: Your tart smells delicious, I said, But just to give 279 00:17:05,250 --> 00:17:09,090 Speaker 2: ourselves time, let's go to bed now and eat afterwards. 280 00:17:10,290 --> 00:17:15,330 Speaker 2: He blinked, then smiled a little questioningly. For old time's sake, 281 00:17:15,409 --> 00:17:20,330 Speaker 2: I said, for fun with no strings attached. I'm certainly flattered, 282 00:17:20,369 --> 00:17:26,209 Speaker 2: he said, And surprised, are you? I asked? Hillary? You 283 00:17:26,290 --> 00:17:29,770 Speaker 2: know you've always always held a special place in my heart, 284 00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:32,569 Speaker 2: he said, Having you in my home now it's a 285 00:17:32,609 --> 00:17:35,530 Speaker 2: true joy. I've thought about you so many times over 286 00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:40,129 Speaker 2: the years. Then he said, for anything physical to happen 287 00:17:40,169 --> 00:17:44,250 Speaker 2: between us, that's just not where I am. So now 288 00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:49,250 Speaker 2: my request had been officially rejected. There were other things 289 00:17:49,290 --> 00:17:52,929 Speaker 2: I thought in this moment and later, but the main 290 00:17:53,050 --> 00:17:57,609 Speaker 2: one was what a giant, fucking waste of time and 291 00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:01,489 Speaker 2: energy it had been to worry over the acquisition of 292 00:18:01,649 --> 00:18:06,249 Speaker 2: condoms and lubricant. This was the man for whom, not 293 00:18:06,490 --> 00:18:11,689 Speaker 2: five minutes earlier, I'd pondered, chuck my presidential aspirations, my 294 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:16,210 Speaker 2: entire career, setting aside, what was wrong with him? What 295 00:18:16,250 --> 00:18:21,129 Speaker 2: was wrong with me? I heard myself ask? What is 296 00:18:21,169 --> 00:18:24,330 Speaker 2: it about that story of you and Kira that made 297 00:18:24,330 --> 00:18:29,009 Speaker 2: you think I'd particularly appreciate it? His tone was wary 298 00:18:29,209 --> 00:18:32,609 Speaker 2: but cheerful. He couldn't discern if we were moving away 299 00:18:32,689 --> 00:18:36,570 Speaker 2: from or deeper into a fraud topic, as he said, 300 00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:40,090 Speaker 2: the feminist angle, for one thing, sisters are doing it 301 00:18:40,129 --> 00:18:44,409 Speaker 2: for themselves, and her directness, her lack of gamesmanship. Do 302 00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:48,889 Speaker 2: I mean gameswomanship? He smiled. I remember how frustrated you 303 00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:51,889 Speaker 2: felt by the narrow expectations for women when we were 304 00:18:51,929 --> 00:18:55,250 Speaker 2: in law school. And what did you want from tonight? 305 00:18:55,369 --> 00:19:00,129 Speaker 2: I asked? Why am I here? He bit his lower lip, 306 00:19:00,409 --> 00:19:03,010 Speaker 2: and I could see that my opinion mattered to him, 307 00:19:03,290 --> 00:19:07,450 Speaker 2: that he sincerely wanted my approval, or at least feared 308 00:19:07,609 --> 00:19:12,530 Speaker 2: my opprobrium. But hadn't this been Bill's genius as a politician, 309 00:19:12,850 --> 00:19:15,529 Speaker 2: That he was this way with everyone and it was 310 00:19:15,649 --> 00:19:20,010 Speaker 2: always sincere, he said, When two old friends have the 311 00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:23,009 Speaker 2: chance to catch up, that's something I value more and 312 00:19:23,090 --> 00:19:25,569 Speaker 2: more as the years passed, and I thought we were 313 00:19:25,609 --> 00:19:30,249 Speaker 2: having a nice time old friends. It was hard to 314 00:19:30,330 --> 00:19:35,129 Speaker 2: know which word was more insulting. Then he added, I 315 00:19:35,169 --> 00:19:37,330 Speaker 2: also wanted to float the idea of you joining my 316 00:19:37,409 --> 00:19:41,169 Speaker 2: foundation's board. There can be a shortage of female leadership, 317 00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:45,169 Speaker 2: the female perspective in these parts. But god knows, I 318 00:19:45,209 --> 00:19:49,969 Speaker 2: didn't mean to be confusing, I said, just out of curiosity, 319 00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:53,889 Speaker 2: how old is the oldest woman you've slept with? I 320 00:19:53,929 --> 00:19:57,369 Speaker 2: don't see what that has to do with anything. Forty five, 321 00:19:57,609 --> 00:20:02,209 Speaker 2: I said, forty Evangeline was forty four when we separated 322 00:20:02,290 --> 00:20:05,209 Speaker 2: last year. He bowed his head. If I gave you 323 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:09,290 Speaker 2: the impression this dinner was romantic, I'm sorry in the 324 00:20:09,369 --> 00:20:11,769 Speaker 2: last few days, did it cross your mind we'd have 325 00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:15,969 Speaker 2: sex tonight? Given the inherently loaded nature of the question, 326 00:20:16,330 --> 00:20:20,609 Speaker 2: I asked, as neutrally as possible. I just I wasn't 327 00:20:20,609 --> 00:20:23,369 Speaker 2: thinking in those terms. He said, what with being in 328 00:20:23,409 --> 00:20:28,129 Speaker 2: a brand new relationship. The oven timer beeped then, and 329 00:20:28,209 --> 00:20:31,290 Speaker 2: we didn't speak as he slid on an oven, mit 330 00:20:31,449 --> 00:20:35,129 Speaker 2: opened the glass door and removed the crust. He set 331 00:20:35,169 --> 00:20:38,769 Speaker 2: the crust on a stove burner. We still didn't speak 332 00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:42,929 Speaker 2: as he began spooning the ratitude into the crust, and finally, 333 00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:46,409 Speaker 2: when he was finished, he said, that doesn't look half bad, 334 00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:49,810 Speaker 2: does it. But I didn't want to eat his food. 335 00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:53,210 Speaker 2: I didn't want to join his board, I didn't want 336 00:20:53,209 --> 00:20:55,530 Speaker 2: to be in his penthouse, and I didn't want to 337 00:20:55,570 --> 00:20:59,810 Speaker 2: be in his presence. It wouldn't I thought, be difficult 338 00:20:59,850 --> 00:21:03,969 Speaker 2: to remain on good terms with him. Salvaging this moment 339 00:21:04,129 --> 00:21:08,770 Speaker 2: would require little effort. Perhaps in the future he'd even 340 00:21:08,810 --> 00:21:11,930 Speaker 2: feel guilt. He wouldn't want a name and be more 341 00:21:12,050 --> 00:21:15,889 Speaker 2: generous and donating to my campaign, or more helpful in 342 00:21:15,970 --> 00:21:22,369 Speaker 2: soliciting others. But backpedaling restoring the goodwill between us would 343 00:21:22,409 --> 00:21:27,330 Speaker 2: be difficult for me putting up with Bill Clinton's bullshit. 344 00:21:28,010 --> 00:21:31,169 Speaker 2: Hadn't I earned the right never to do it again? 345 00:21:32,290 --> 00:21:36,649 Speaker 2: Sometimes speaking your mind is expensive, which doesn't mean it's 346 00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:40,770 Speaker 2: not worth it. There's nothing you did wrong tonight that's 347 00:21:40,889 --> 00:21:43,570 Speaker 2: provable in a court of law, I said, which is 348 00:21:43,609 --> 00:21:46,649 Speaker 2: your specialty, Bill, But I do think you led me on. 349 00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:50,690 Speaker 2: It's funny because all those years ago when you proposed 350 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:54,449 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, on the one hand, he'll never be faithful, 351 00:21:54,850 --> 00:21:57,729 Speaker 2: but on the other hand, he'll never not be attracted 352 00:21:57,770 --> 00:22:01,690 Speaker 2: to me. He just loves women and sex. But now 353 00:22:01,730 --> 00:22:04,489 Speaker 2: I think I was wrong. If we'd gotten married, you 354 00:22:04,570 --> 00:22:07,090 Speaker 2: eventually would have traded me in for a new model. 355 00:22:07,929 --> 00:22:11,490 Speaker 2: His face flushed as he said, what our marriage would 356 00:22:11,490 --> 00:22:14,690 Speaker 2: have looked like is immaterial, and you're the one who 357 00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:18,209 Speaker 2: made it immaterial. I was prepared to do my best 358 00:22:18,250 --> 00:22:22,010 Speaker 2: as your husband was. My best is my best perfect? 359 00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:22,369 Speaker 1: No? 360 00:22:23,129 --> 00:22:24,810 Speaker 2: Was it enough for you? Also? 361 00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:25,010 Speaker 1: No? 362 00:22:25,570 --> 00:22:28,609 Speaker 2: Therefore, the subject of whom I've chosen to be involved 363 00:22:28,609 --> 00:22:32,570 Speaker 2: with since is none of your business, except I said, 364 00:22:32,770 --> 00:22:35,889 Speaker 2: for your decision to invite me over for an intimate dinner. 365 00:22:36,330 --> 00:22:39,090 Speaker 2: I swept my arm through the air, taking in the tart, 366 00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:42,169 Speaker 2: the music, the view. Is it that you wanted to 367 00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:44,689 Speaker 2: leave your options open? But now that I'm here, I 368 00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:48,250 Speaker 2: look too wrinkly to you? Is my skin not milky 369 00:22:48,290 --> 00:22:52,010 Speaker 2: white enough? He bit his lip. He actually had two 370 00:22:52,290 --> 00:22:56,129 Speaker 2: bitten lip modes, one pensive and one angry, and this 371 00:22:56,290 --> 00:23:00,689 Speaker 2: was the angry version, and said, you've never understood that 372 00:23:00,810 --> 00:23:05,889 Speaker 2: you can't litigate the human heart. Spare me. I slid 373 00:23:05,929 --> 00:23:08,729 Speaker 2: forward on the barstool. I know we didn't get through 374 00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:10,810 Speaker 2: a tip day for you, but I hope that on 375 00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:14,929 Speaker 2: a regular basis seeing a therapist as part of your schedule, because, 376 00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:18,209 Speaker 2: without question, you're a narcissist. And I mean that in 377 00:23:18,209 --> 00:23:21,729 Speaker 2: the clinical sense. What diagnosis would you give to a 378 00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:26,570 Speaker 2: woman who tries unsuccessfully to seduce a narcissist? If he 379 00:23:26,689 --> 00:23:30,689 Speaker 2: wasn't shouting by this point, he was close fuck you, 380 00:23:31,050 --> 00:23:34,249 Speaker 2: I said, I believe I made it clear I'd rather not. 381 00:23:34,609 --> 00:23:37,529 Speaker 2: He said, you know, I said, if you're trying to 382 00:23:37,649 --> 00:23:41,609 Speaker 2: humiliate me, I am ashamed of myself, but not for 383 00:23:41,689 --> 00:23:45,810 Speaker 2: thinking you'd find me attractive. I'm ashamed because you've given 384 00:23:45,889 --> 00:23:49,649 Speaker 2: me so much evidence for so many years about what 385 00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:53,330 Speaker 2: a piece of shit you are, and once again I 386 00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:58,129 Speaker 2: ignored it. I stood goodbye, Bill. I didn't wait for 387 00:23:58,209 --> 00:24:02,450 Speaker 2: him to respond before I turned and strode toward the elevator. 388 00:24:03,449 --> 00:24:06,529 Speaker 2: You think that's how it works, he yelled. I welcome 389 00:24:06,609 --> 00:24:09,090 Speaker 2: you into my home, and when things don't go exact 390 00:24:09,129 --> 00:24:13,050 Speaker 2: exactly how you imagined, you get to impugne my character. 391 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:17,330 Speaker 2: I glanced over my shoulder. I don't impune your character, 392 00:24:17,409 --> 00:24:21,649 Speaker 2: I said, you do that all by yourself. If we'd 393 00:24:21,649 --> 00:24:25,050 Speaker 2: been on the ground floor, my dramatic exit could have 394 00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:29,489 Speaker 2: been more efficient as it was. After reaching the elevator, 395 00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:33,210 Speaker 2: grabbing my purse off the table, and pressing the call button, 396 00:24:33,530 --> 00:24:36,330 Speaker 2: I didn't need to wait longer than a few seconds, 397 00:24:36,689 --> 00:24:39,570 Speaker 2: but any delay as I stood there with my back 398 00:24:39,609 --> 00:24:44,129 Speaker 2: to him and those enormous windows imbued the situation with 399 00:24:44,209 --> 00:24:49,369 Speaker 2: a certain absurdity Behind me, I heard him say, you've 400 00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:52,850 Speaker 2: always gotten off on making me feel bad about myself, 401 00:24:53,209 --> 00:24:57,250 Speaker 2: holding me to your impossible standards, then scolding me when 402 00:24:57,290 --> 00:25:00,250 Speaker 2: I don't meet them. You know what you are, You're 403 00:25:00,290 --> 00:25:05,489 Speaker 2: a self righteous cunt. I looked over my shoulder and said, 404 00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:11,289 Speaker 2: and you're a spoiled, selfish child. This is when he 405 00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:14,929 Speaker 2: threw the serving spoon. Was he throwing it at me? 406 00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:18,290 Speaker 2: I'd never known him to be violent, though I'd also 407 00:25:18,449 --> 00:25:22,729 Speaker 2: never seen him this enraged. He hit the red porcelain 408 00:25:22,810 --> 00:25:25,769 Speaker 2: lamp on the table, knocking it to the floor and 409 00:25:25,929 --> 00:25:29,450 Speaker 2: shattering it. I was shocked, and when I looked at him, 410 00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:34,169 Speaker 2: it seemed he was too. The elevator doors opened and 411 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:38,369 Speaker 2: I stepped inside, then turned around. I held the doors 412 00:25:38,409 --> 00:25:42,169 Speaker 2: open as I spoke. Did you say your housekeeper's name 413 00:25:42,330 --> 00:25:46,649 Speaker 2: is Elena. You're so good at getting other people to 414 00:25:46,810 --> 00:25:48,570 Speaker 2: clean up your messes. 415 00:25:58,050 --> 00:26:02,010 Speaker 1: That was Curtis Sinenfeld, reading from her novel Rodham. After 416 00:26:02,050 --> 00:26:04,729 Speaker 1: the break, I continue to talk with Curtis about this 417 00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:08,010 Speaker 1: passage and about the real Bill Clinton and the reality 418 00:26:08,129 --> 00:26:21,609 Speaker 1: of his legacy. What I love about this passage is 419 00:26:21,649 --> 00:26:24,730 Speaker 1: you see played out, over the course of about twenty pages, 420 00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:30,249 Speaker 1: the entirety of a romantic relationship. Like there's the hopefulness 421 00:26:30,290 --> 00:26:33,489 Speaker 1: at the beginning, and the flirtation and the projection about 422 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:38,249 Speaker 1: the future, and then it gives way to the dashed 423 00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:41,010 Speaker 1: hopes and the hurt, and then this kind of divorce. 424 00:26:41,689 --> 00:26:45,369 Speaker 2: That's funny. That's an interesting observation which I agree with 425 00:26:45,449 --> 00:26:46,850 Speaker 2: and had not thought of before. 426 00:26:47,050 --> 00:26:54,249 Speaker 1: My undergraduate degree in literature is really paid off. This 427 00:26:54,330 --> 00:26:56,010 Speaker 1: is something that struck me in maybe this is something 428 00:26:56,010 --> 00:26:58,530 Speaker 1: that you've thought about more and you could bring clarity 429 00:26:58,570 --> 00:27:00,449 Speaker 1: to this whole thing. But in the book you avoid 430 00:27:00,530 --> 00:27:04,409 Speaker 1: the Monica Lewinsky scandal because in your version of history 431 00:27:04,409 --> 00:27:07,649 Speaker 1: Booklinton never becomes president, so he never has this intern 432 00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:11,410 Speaker 1: but there is and in for the Wenita Broaderick story 433 00:27:11,609 --> 00:27:14,889 Speaker 1: where Hillary has a confrontation with a woman who accuses 434 00:27:15,609 --> 00:27:19,330 Speaker 1: Bill of having raped her. So in the passage that 435 00:27:19,369 --> 00:27:23,330 Speaker 1: you just read it Bill's penthouse, when you have Hillary 436 00:27:24,209 --> 00:27:27,489 Speaker 1: accused Bill of doing nothing wrong that could be proven 437 00:27:27,689 --> 00:27:30,330 Speaker 1: in a court of law, and in the next breath 438 00:27:30,449 --> 00:27:33,090 Speaker 1: she goes on to say that he's a man who 439 00:27:33,129 --> 00:27:37,289 Speaker 1: loves women and sex. How is the reader meant to 440 00:27:37,409 --> 00:27:37,850 Speaker 1: hear that? 441 00:27:39,770 --> 00:27:46,369 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a question about Bill Clinton and 442 00:27:46,449 --> 00:27:49,490 Speaker 2: like sort of who he is or who he mostly 443 00:27:49,649 --> 00:27:53,810 Speaker 2: is that exists for the American public, Like is he 444 00:27:54,810 --> 00:27:58,129 Speaker 2: basically a good guy or basically a bad guy? And 445 00:27:58,290 --> 00:28:02,090 Speaker 2: I feel like in some ways that question has been 446 00:28:02,889 --> 00:28:06,530 Speaker 2: discussed you know, since the early nineties, so for almost 447 00:28:06,689 --> 00:28:10,850 Speaker 2: thirty years, and I think the way people answer that 448 00:28:10,929 --> 00:28:16,209 Speaker 2: has changed during that time. In the book, one of 449 00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:22,169 Speaker 2: the reasons Hillary doesn't stay with him is that she 450 00:28:22,369 --> 00:28:27,769 Speaker 2: kind of gets this glimpse of his darker interactions with 451 00:28:27,850 --> 00:28:32,770 Speaker 2: women and doesn't really want to be responsible for them. 452 00:28:33,850 --> 00:28:36,209 Speaker 2: And I think in real life, I mean, Hillary in 453 00:28:36,209 --> 00:28:43,090 Speaker 2: some ways could not draw that much attention to Trump's 454 00:28:43,209 --> 00:28:48,410 Speaker 2: offenses against women in the twenty sixteen campaign because Trump 455 00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:51,690 Speaker 2: would always invoke Bill's history, so it sort of seemed 456 00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:55,890 Speaker 2: like Hillary was held in some ways more accountable for 457 00:28:55,930 --> 00:29:01,850 Speaker 2: Bill's behavior than Bill was. But I think one of 458 00:29:01,890 --> 00:29:05,729 Speaker 2: the things that draws me to reading and writing fiction, 459 00:29:05,890 --> 00:29:14,010 Speaker 2: it's that it captures the contradictory nature of people, and 460 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,410 Speaker 2: like so much of the public discourse, I think, you know, 461 00:29:18,570 --> 00:29:20,410 Speaker 2: like we either like want to worship someone. You can 462 00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:22,930 Speaker 2: sort of see this on Twitter, like it's like this 463 00:29:23,010 --> 00:29:25,130 Speaker 2: is the week that we're all going to like worship 464 00:29:25,330 --> 00:29:28,410 Speaker 2: Jeff Goldbloom or like designed he's the best person ever, 465 00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:30,610 Speaker 2: and then like this is when we're going to turn 466 00:29:30,690 --> 00:29:35,410 Speaker 2: against this person, and that it's either or instead of that, 467 00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:40,130 Speaker 2: like people are contradictory and we even recognize that. Like, 468 00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:43,450 Speaker 2: I think probably almost all of us have someone in 469 00:29:43,490 --> 00:29:47,690 Speaker 2: our life where we feel like, if that person weren't 470 00:29:47,690 --> 00:29:51,770 Speaker 2: my close friend, I really wouldn't like them, or I 471 00:29:52,290 --> 00:29:54,810 Speaker 2: really wouldn't be comfortable with their behavior. And maybe I 472 00:29:54,850 --> 00:29:58,049 Speaker 2: am uncomfortable with their behavior and I like them, and 473 00:29:58,209 --> 00:30:01,529 Speaker 2: a part of me feels like, maybe that's what life 474 00:30:01,570 --> 00:30:02,650 Speaker 2: is like for Hillary. 475 00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:04,890 Speaker 1: Yeah. 476 00:30:05,290 --> 00:30:09,930 Speaker 2: I think that Heavyweight does a really big, beautiful job. 477 00:30:10,730 --> 00:30:16,010 Speaker 2: It's rare in nonfiction that lets people be both good 478 00:30:16,050 --> 00:30:22,729 Speaker 2: and bad or like illustrates the contradictory nature of humans. 479 00:30:23,290 --> 00:30:26,209 Speaker 2: Like I feel like so many of the episodes flip 480 00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:30,850 Speaker 2: something around where the person that we didn't like it first, 481 00:30:31,250 --> 00:30:33,650 Speaker 2: we get some piece of information that forces us to 482 00:30:33,850 --> 00:30:36,010 Speaker 2: like them more, or maybe vice versa. 483 00:30:35,930 --> 00:30:40,329 Speaker 1: Like yeah, wow, thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad to 484 00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:42,850 Speaker 1: hear you say that, because yeah, like I think it's 485 00:30:42,890 --> 00:30:46,770 Speaker 1: probably the highest aspiration of the show or those moves, 486 00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:49,850 Speaker 1: and yeah, I don't know if I've ever heard, actually 487 00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:56,450 Speaker 1: anyone say that. That's very gratifying to here. Do do 488 00:30:56,730 --> 00:30:59,009 Speaker 1: know if Hillary has read the book? 489 00:31:00,050 --> 00:31:01,810 Speaker 2: I don't think she has. I mean, I don't know, 490 00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:05,010 Speaker 2: Like if I mean, I promise not to do this. 491 00:31:05,850 --> 00:31:08,729 Speaker 2: But if like two years from now, I said, like, 492 00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:12,249 Speaker 2: I've written a book based on your life, like, do 493 00:31:12,330 --> 00:31:14,529 Speaker 2: you think you'd be intrigued or horrified? 494 00:31:16,930 --> 00:31:23,290 Speaker 1: I would be I think, uh yeah, I think Curtis 495 00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:30,250 Speaker 1: has lost her mind. I mean I think I would 496 00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:43,050 Speaker 1: read it. I just want to say, thank you, Curtis. 497 00:31:43,290 --> 00:31:44,930 Speaker 2: You're welcome, Jonathan, thank you. 498 00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:52,090 Speaker 1: Curtis Enfeld's novel Rodham is available in bookstores everywhere. And 499 00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:54,090 Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with our final check in 500 00:31:54,209 --> 00:31:57,009 Speaker 1: of the year. And it's a fun one, Kaylee, Stevie 501 00:31:57,050 --> 00:32:00,130 Speaker 1: and I will be talking about the holidays and baldness. 502 00:32:00,730 --> 00:32:01,370 Speaker 1: We'll see you then