WEBVTT - A Culture of Submission 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:09.320 M The day that it landed in my inbox was 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.680 such a crazy day. I was receiving so many emails 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.919 and communications from people at the time, so it was 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.040 just sort of another thing that landed. And then later 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.960 that night I went hang on. Someone sent me all 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.920 these PDFs of reports coming through from from New York, 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.240 and so I opened them and was trying to read them, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.280 and there was just so much information. It was actually 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.519 really overwhelming at first. It sort of took me a 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.519 few days to actually be able to sit down and 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:41.720 think about what I would seeing. This was outlining just 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.840 the extent of the culture of impunity, of the culture 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.800 of sexual assault, of abusing the labor of a lot 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:55.760 of young women especially. This was the culture that completely 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.640 got out of hand with hill Song and almost singlehandedly 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.000 brought it down. When their own lawyers are saying, you 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.200 guys have got to get control of this, because you're 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.440 in big trouble. This was never exactly about writing all 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.720 of the wrongs. This is really about protecting the institution 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.080 of Hillsong and a lot of the people who were 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.160 still employed by it, who have clearly done wrong things, 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.160 looked the other way and and just been a part 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.720 of a really rotten and toxic culture. This is Fast 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.080 Profits the story of Hillsong Church with Miami ut eb 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:33.680 and journalists Our Hardy. We're investigating Hillsong success and scandals. 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.120 Just some of the quotes in the report are quite incredible. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.759 They say things like there was a culture of submission, 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:45.080 a wild West attitude, acceptance of rudeness, abusive work rules 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.240 and unfair treatment, an ocean of ill will, concern, hurt feelings, 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:54.000 and despair. They even quote passer Carl Lentz admitting that 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.240 he's a very good liar. I guess I just wanted 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.560 to know from your perspective, how did you feel when 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.920 you first so this stuff written in print, I mean, 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.080 actually saying it that must have elicited quite some strong 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.000 feelings for me. It was just like so much to 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:15.040 process of, Like, holy sh it. The first reaction I 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.200 had was a gasp when I read a name that 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.120 was familiar to me and that I didn't know what 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.520 they had gone through because I know they're currently in therapy. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:30.320 So it was it was very non surprising, but also disgusting, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.760 and I'm like, I need to take a walk after 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.040 reading all of this. So the lawyers used this raise 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.920 a culture of submission. I want to dig a little 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.320 deeper into that. What does that mean? How did it happen? 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.840 And perhaps even how did we let it happen. It's 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:50.480 about power, it's about hierarchy, and it's about accountability. The 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.120 kate is the power and privilege of senior postage. The 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.560 report that was sent to me says the most serious 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.480 incidents happened in New York because the senior past is 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.400 behavior was and a quote privileged, even when their conduct 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:08.720 was undesirable, immoral, or potentially illegal. So the lawyers say 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.640 it's difficult to establish what actually happened. Remember, the report 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.040 describes personal recollections and there was a lot of ill 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.120 will and some access to grind. But here's a list 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.840 of what the lawyers heard. First, allegations of consensual and 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:28.880 non consensual sex between leaders and congregants, staff volunteers, and 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:34.120 people outside the church. Second, allegations of sexual harassment and 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:40.080 hostile work environments. Third, allegations of cover ups design to 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.040 conceal ms conduct, and the list goes on. There are 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.280 claims of low wages that might have broken labor laws, 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:52.040 discrimination on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, and race, 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.360 and finally claims of non sexual harassment and abuse. There's 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.680 a quote that stood out for me on that last point. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:06.279 The lawyers talk about behavior designed to intimidate, humiliate, subjugate, 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.520 and exercise pala. This episode is all about abuse of 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:15.120 power in that word submission. It's weird, right. No one 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.320 at Hillsong said you've got to submit to abusive behavior. 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.839 There was no big banner next to welcome home saying 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.560 welcome to a culture of submission. Of course not you'd 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.920 run for the hills. But this isn't quite as mild 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.600 as it sounds. I want to go back to Jannis Lagata, 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.200 who we talked to in the first episode. She was 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.760 there at Hillsong, New York while this culture of submission 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.000 was happening. She was trying to change things, and she 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.359 felt she was failing. If, like Janice and me, you 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.840 come from a background of Pentecostalism, you might recognize a 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.800 little christian Ee happening here. To hear something like that, 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:56.800 like the culture of submission to the world, yeah, I 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.520 think that would sound wild. But in Christie Nity, that 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.320 would be not even just the tame part of that 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.440 report like that would almost that that's like a given, 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:14.520 Like submission is a word that I didn't realize as 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.599 someone who grew up in the church. That's not that's 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:19.640 not a normal word. Like, that's not a word you 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.880 just hear a lot. But all throughout childhood, as children, 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.280 you are submitting to your parents. As women, you are 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:34.040 submitting to men. As sheep, you are submitting to your shepherd. 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.960 As followers, you are submitting to your leader. And so 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:43.760 there is just a Christian culture of having to be 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.440 in community and having to have a leader, Like you 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.160 need to be submitted to somebody or something right, And 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.440 they'll tell you are submitted to something. And if it's 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:59.120 not God, maybe it's money, maybe it's sex, maybe it's drugs, 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.880 maybe it's your job up, maybe it's your relationship. Like 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.280 everyone is submitting to something, so you want to make 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.880 sure you're submitting to the right things. And yeah, if 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.600 you're part of Hillsong, then you have said this is 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.960 my church and these are my leaders. They are hearing 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.800 from God on behalf of this community which I am 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.880 a part of, and so I need to be submitted. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.760 And who do you submit to? Well, the most senior 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.360 passes in Hillsong, New York were the ones with the power, 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.600 and we know from the report many people felt that 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.880 they couldn't challenge their behavior. My name's Ashley Easter. I'm 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.640 a cult survivor and abuse victim advocate. I'm also the 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.960 founder of Courage three sixty five, where we support survivors 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.920 of abuse. I think people would describe me as being 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:51.479 pretty fiery. I'm only five ft one, but I think 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:53.920 I pack a lot of punch in this small frame. 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.000 Some people have called me a witch. I've been told 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.640 that I'm rebellious and that rebellion in is like the 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.760 sin of witchcraft. Witchcraft is alliance with the devil, and 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.159 alliance with the devil will get you cast into hell. 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:10.640 And so I've certainly been called a rebellious woman. I've 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.760 been told that I just don't know what I'm talking about. 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.960 But at the same time, I've confronted face to face 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:24.440 some tall, large men who have a lot of stature 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.280 and some of these church movements, and it's so interesting 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.080 to see them cower when you actually talk to them 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.240 in person. So I think that they try to dismiss me, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.160 but I also think that I'm sort of that little 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.840 stone in their shoe. That I might be small, but 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.240 they can't really forget about me because I'm going to 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.680 keep calling them out, and I think that really annoys 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.520 them a lot. Actually worked with survivors of abuse at 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.800 different churches, and she campaigns for better safeguards and accountability. 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.000 We asked her to look at the claims in the 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.720 Hillsong Report and the Sexual Abuses Report it in New York. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.600 This is your take on what she learned. So I 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.880 was looking at the sexual exploitation and the sexual abuse, 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.080 and the first thing that stood out to me is 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:16.240 that Hillsong seems to know that there's already a dangerous culture. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.120 And the thing to start to pick up on that 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.720 was their conversation around the green rooms. So the green 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.200 rooms are basically, I assume where speakers go before they 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.560 go on stage, and they were talking about not allowing 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:36.640 loose women into the green rooms, basically with this ideology 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.400 that the men could not control themselves. These are pastors, 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.640 people who are supposed to be the cream of the 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.440 crop when it comes to morality, and they couldn't be 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.760 trusted to have women in the green room because nobody 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.120 knew what they would do. To me, that signals that 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.360 the church already knows that there is a culture a 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.720 misogyn that there's a culture of men blaming women for 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.720 their short falls, for their sexual abuse in many cases, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.080 and putting the onus on women just not to be 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:17.840 available because these pastors and church leaders can't control themselves. 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.840 So that's what stood out to me first is it's 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:25.000 not just that there are these isolated instances of abuse, 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.600 of rape, of sexual assault, but there's a whole culture 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.440 where the church is even aware that they need to 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:37.920 keep women out of a green room around pastors because 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.040 they don't know what would happen. And keeping in mind, 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.880 the pastors in that situation are the ones with the 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.479 power and control, not women who would walk into the room. 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.199 And I just want to add something on the green rooms. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.560 Another quote really jumped out at me from the lawyers. 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.120 It says they didn't appear to be any effort to 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:00.080 exclude women who are attractive, to the contrary the in 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.440 ram saying to have selected beautiful helps. Only women with 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.040 history of sexual encounters were excluded. Yeah, and there are 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:14.000 multiple allegations of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, and inappropriate behavior 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.440 against quite a long list of people at Hillsong. People 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.920 also complained about misogynistic and dismissive behavior, and the teaching 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.240 of celibacy before marriage only seemed to be enforced against women. 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.840 Here's actually Easter again. Then there's this idea, this whole 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:37.360 culture of submission within Hillsong, where pastors, church leaders, ministers 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:44.400 are given this almost godlike honor, praise, and really worship 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:51.839 in some scenarios, and abuse is always, always, always motivated 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.920 by a lust for power and control, whether that sexual abuse, 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.680 verbal abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse. These aren't accidents. There 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:04.800 may be other factors like anger management issues or impulse controlled. 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.640 But ultimately, when it comes down to it, the choice 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.480 to abuse somebody is the choice to try to gain 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.280 power and control over them. So when you have a 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.959 culture where it's very hierarchical, particularly with the men, you 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:24.240 are going to find some sort of abuse because abuses 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:28.199 about power and control. So this whole culture lends to 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.760 dangerous things happening and being excused because who wants to 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.280 speak out about the Man of God. Now we come 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.160 to the allegations against one high ranking pasta. These are 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.680 the most serious allegations we've come across. It's a difficult 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.360 story to listen to The details we're going to share 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.559 with you are from a lawyer's report ordered by Hillsong 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:56.320 and leaked to out. We have concealed the woman's identity 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.200 and some of the most explicit details. At the center 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.800 is a hills passer called Read Bogarde, and a junior 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.679 staff member at Hillsong New York. Let's rewind to two 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.600 thousand fourteen Hillsong leadership in Australia. It's told about what's 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:16.640 called misconducts between Read Bogarde, who's married, and an unmarried 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.800 junior staff member. They heard the pair had an affair 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.880 from fall two thousand and thirteen till early two thousand 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.960 and fourteen. Let's hear how Hillsong's own lawyer described what happened. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.640 Hillsong did not conduct any meaningful inquiry into the details 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.760 or circumstances of the affair, and no one with appropriate 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.959 training was assigned to look into matters. No one at 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.640 any time ever probed for more information or tried to 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.400 discern how one of the most powerful men in the 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.280 New York church could have found himself in a sexual 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.680 relationship with a young, vulnerable junior staff member, and no 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.760 one appears to have questioned whether meaningful consent was possible, 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.600 let alone given the obvious power dynamic. So what action 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.760 did Hillsong take over these reports of an affair? Okay, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.920 this is what happened. Read Bogard stood down publicly from 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.679 his platform for up to twelve months. Then he returned 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.800 to full pastoral duties, and later he got promoted to 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.760 the job of lead pastor at a new Hillsong church 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.720 in Dallas. Six years later, the same woman came forward 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:31.400 and said her sexual experience with read Bogard initially had 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.959 not been consensual. She said Mr Bogard had reaped her. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.239 That's when Hillsong lawyers were brought in and they interviewed 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.720 thirteen witnesses about the case. But the lawyers say because 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.920 of the passage of time and the lack of any 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:51.480 prior investigation, their own investigation was hampered. They also described 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.439 read Bogard as less than entirely reliable in his interviews, 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.160 and because there are no records or eyewitness accounts from 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.040 the time, it's difficult to find definitive conclusions about the truth. 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.040 Read Bogarde told investigators he had no recollection of the woman, 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.719 saying no, let's hear what the lawyers had to say 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.160 there can be no doubt that given the extreme power 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.520 imbalance between the two, as well as the don't say 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.920 no culture which permeated the New York Church, there was 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.480 ample opportunity for Mr Bogard to take advantage of a 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.400 systemic inability for the woman to have meaningfully consented at 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:30.920 the time in question, and to pick up on some 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.880 other issues the lawyers raise. They say read Bogarde put 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.320 pressure on the woman to sign a non disclosure agreement 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.880 as a condition of her employment, and he also urged 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.800 her to get a matching tattoo, even though she didn't 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.880 want one. We asked Ashley Easter to look at the case, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.680 and she has a strong personal reaction to what she heard. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:58.120 So when I read this case about this pasture, really 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:03.120 it was described as him initially raping the woman, sexually 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:07.880 assaulting her, and then drawing her into this relationship that 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.200 was long term. Personally, I would say that all of 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.480 that is sexual sault if it began with a power 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.000 differentiation and if there was a rape at the beginning. 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.880 But other things that I noticed about this case was 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.440 that it had such similar lines to what you would 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:34.200 see in a traditional sex slavery situation because not only 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.320 was there the sexual thought there, not only was there 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.800 the abuse of power, but it was then tied to 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.800 the woman's job. It was like, sign these papers or 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.440 you don't have a job, in the middle of him 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:53.600 having this sexualized power and control dynamic relationship with this woman. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.720 So that is definitely something that you would see a 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.600 lot of times in sex trafficking and sexual slavery situations. 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.280 But then on top of that, he took it a 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.560 step farther and he did this, He encouraged this woman 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.360 to getting matching tattoo, and it was something that she 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.000 really didn't want to do it. It really is a 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:19.120 sign of ownership. Read Bogard left hill Song. No criminal 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.840 charges have been brought against him. We'll be asking Hill 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.600 Song to explain what action they've taken, whether they've introduced 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:30.000 new safeguards and reporting systems recommended by their lawyers, and 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.320 we'll be asking them to respond to another set of allegations, 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:39.480 this time about the exploitation of volunteers. I could probably 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:44.520 pull up the numbers right now, so on a Sunday, 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.920 every Sunday, I would collect numbers from all the teams 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:56.280 of who volunteered and what uh October one for the 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:00.720 ten am service, there were in the audience three hundred 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.760 and people and a total of four hundred and forty people, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.160 and we had a hundred and one volunteers. This culture 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.240 of submission at Hillsong led to another type of abuse 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:17.320 as well, exploitation of volunteers and staff. The mega productions 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.160 like the one I helped run at Royale in Boston 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.280 rely on thousands of volunteers, and that's okay up to 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:28.760 a point. Every week they would do Captain of the week, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:30.320 that's what they would call it. So it's just like 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.680 the volunteer who had stood out. They would give out 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.680 antela to whoever like got it, and they would give 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.600 you like a soccer band for team captain and it 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.119 said captain on it. So that was like your little 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.760 prize for being Captain of the week or volunteer of 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:50.399 the week. Josh comes did like a thank you for 0:17:50.520 --> 0:18:22.200 volunteering with us small It's there's no calories. It felt 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.040 nice to be recognized for the work I was doing. 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.360 When I look at it now, um, when I look 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.800 at that video and watch it, it's it's really it 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.600 frustrates me because The words that Josh Comes was saying 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.919 in that video were very generic. He didn't really know me. 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:46.920 This happened September. I came out to my leader probably 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:51.159 like two months later, and I was never on stage 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.000 and never recognized again for anything. And I was there 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.720 every Sunday and not saying that like I'm bitter about 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.520 not having received recognition. I feel like during that time 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.800 of starting to question some thing's theologically, and so it 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.960 felt like a way to keep me in of like 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:16.040 where we're recognizing you, like stay. The investigators that New 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.320 York picked up on how this hierarchy really benefited the 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.640 church because it motivated people to give more time and 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.639 more effort to heal song and that could include some 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.960 pretty extreme expectations. Megan Fallon was one of the volunteers. 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.040 She showed her experience at the New York church with 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.960 the investigators and with us. I felt like I was 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.080 building God's church and I felt included and it felt 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.639 like a family. I made myself available all the time, 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.359 and I felt like I was welcoming people home like 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:48.760 that was what we were supposed to be doing. You know, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:50.879 you don't realize it when you're in it. You know 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.240 what I mean, or you don't realize it until you're 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.679 too far in it. Looking back on it, they really 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.000 manipulate you into, you know, wanting to do different things. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:01.760 And I look back at the things that I was 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.760 doing back then, like volunteering from six am to midnight, 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.480 and I really wanted to be a part of City Care, 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.919 which was painted as the outreach that they were going 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.320 to be doing to the community, and that's like what 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.679 I wanted to do for a career, and so I 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:19.960 really wanted to get involved with that, but it was 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.360 really slow coming off the ground. So as a part 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.399 of the Connections team, I would volunteer for like different things, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.320 and it was like working a full time job, you know, 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.200 but for free. But it was made to be like, well, 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.679 this is an honor and like, you know, when city 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.360 Care starts, you know, you'll get to be the main volunteer. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:41.640 I don't know, but they paint this picture that it's 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.560 adding up to something. And I remember the first Christmas again, 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.000 there was no city Care, there was nothing going on, 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.280 but they were taking donations at church for some nonprofit 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:56.560 organization to donate presents to children, and so I volunteered 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:58.880 and they were like, oh, great, so you can bring 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.240 them from church to your house and then bring them 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.359 to the place in the morning. But I lived on 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.359 like a sixth floor walk up on the upper east side, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.560 and I had to bring hundreds of presents up all 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.760 of these stairs by myself, no help. But they were 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:15.600 all over the living room. Like I still have a 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.240 picture of me sitting in the middle of all these pictures, 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.520 like smiling looking back on that. Now, that's insane. I 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.199 wouldn't do that for my full time job, now, you 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.159 know what I mean. But back then it was for 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.479 free and it was awesome and it was an honor 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.919 that they considered me to help with this project. And 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:36.040 it's crazy thinking about that now. I'm just really curious, 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.639 where do you think that this culture came from, of 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.320 manipulation and of taking advantage of really well intentioned people. 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:44.520 Did it come from the top? Did it come from 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.640 Carl Was it just so deeply ingrained within the church? 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.400 You know, the folks that I was helping out they 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.360 learned that from someone. And so I think American culture 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.760 is a little bit different, right, and so I think 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:02.240 it probably was more so here. But you know, as 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:04.520 I continued to volunteer. And the more you got to 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.399 see that this was across the board. So when we 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:10.919 did conferences, when we had special guests come to speak, 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:16.960 they all had super outlandish requests and needs that we're 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:22.280 all required, right, and so um, it came from the topic, 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.720 came from Sydney, and this was just a norm. And 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.639 the pastors in New York are fairly young, and so 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.399 they were just following what was modeled to them. And 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:34.479 then it probably got a little bit out of control, 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.800 just because America's a little bit out of control. I'm 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:39.760 just wondering, if you have a talied up, how many 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.359 hours you actually did as a volunteer. Oh my god, 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.720 I could never do that because it's a number that 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.160 I mean because even when I was technically working for them, 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.280 I was getting paid so little. It was basically volunteering too. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.280 So you know, four years straight, doesn't it sound crazy? 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.400 But not so crazy if you in it. And joannicely 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:04.960 gotta picks up on a Christianese things happening here, You've 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.800 got to remember this really played into our sense of 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.960 duty and obligation. The word sacrifice. We don't walk around 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:15.920 talking about sacrificing all the time. But in Christianity you do, 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.360 and so your life is not your own. And the 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.760 deal is Jesus did for you. He gave his life 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:24.720 for you, and the least you can do is give 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:28.439 your life back. And so whatever part of your life 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:30.719 is needed, that's your money, If that's your time, that's 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.920 your energy, that's your your gifts and your talents. You're 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:38.119 giving it. And it seems crazy on this side of things, 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:41.639 because you are doing all this work and being encouraged 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.040 to give and keep giving by people who are getting 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.960 a lot. I don't have an issue with volunteerism, but 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.119 I think whatever the mode, whatever the model you're using is, 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.239 then everyone should be subject to that. So if you 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.439 want an all volunteer church, then the pastors need to 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.919 be volunteers too. But if you can't afford to pay 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.439 the pastor for the work that they're doing, then you 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.800 can afford to pay everyone for the work that they're doing. 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:12.200 And so it's just right right for abuse and for 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.200 robbing people's system when you are just drawing these arbitrary 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:19.680 lines about whose time is worth money and whose isn't. 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.760 Some people were giving a lot and others were getting 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:28.080 a lot, while volunteers and staff were giving hours of 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:33.200 unpaid work, even when some were struggling financially. It was 0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:37.560 a different story for some pastors. For example, the lawyers 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.800 highlighted how a senior pastor would spend lavishly on the 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.560 church credit card for personal expenses, and at the same time, 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.840 juniorrself were held to a standard of perfection that the 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.760 lads didn't follow and if they complained, they were shamed. 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:55.360 And it really pisces me off to read this part 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:59.040 of the report, how volunteers were working their asses off 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.399 while Carl Lens spent like five thousand dollars on a 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.560 dinner with celebrities, and there are so many examples of 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:10.679 these ridiculous demands. Staff were on call seven. One of 0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:13.760 the staff said he was called out at one fifteen 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.040 in the morning to set up a drum set for 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:20.280 Carl's son. Collins told the lawyers he had no recollection 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:23.720 of that, but he was very frank about his sexual 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:27.880