1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: M The day that it landed in my inbox was 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: such a crazy day. I was receiving so many emails 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: and communications from people at the time, so it was 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: just sort of another thing that landed. And then later 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: that night I went hang on. Someone sent me all 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: these PDFs of reports coming through from from New York, 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: and so I opened them and was trying to read them, 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: and there was just so much information. It was actually 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: really overwhelming at first. It sort of took me a 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: few days to actually be able to sit down and 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: think about what I would seeing. This was outlining just 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: the extent of the culture of impunity, of the culture 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: of sexual assault, of abusing the labor of a lot 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: of young women especially. This was the culture that completely 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: got out of hand with hill Song and almost singlehandedly 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: brought it down. When their own lawyers are saying, you 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: guys have got to get control of this, because you're 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: in big trouble. This was never exactly about writing all 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: of the wrongs. This is really about protecting the institution 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: of Hillsong and a lot of the people who were 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: still employed by it, who have clearly done wrong things, 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: looked the other way and and just been a part 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: of a really rotten and toxic culture. This is Fast 24 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: Profits the story of Hillsong Church with Miami ut eb 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: and journalists Our Hardy. We're investigating Hillsong success and scandals. 26 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: Just some of the quotes in the report are quite incredible. 27 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: They say things like there was a culture of submission, 28 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: a wild West attitude, acceptance of rudeness, abusive work rules 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: and unfair treatment, an ocean of ill will, concern, hurt feelings, 30 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: and despair. They even quote passer Carl Lentz admitting that 31 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: he's a very good liar. I guess I just wanted 32 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: to know from your perspective, how did you feel when 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: you first so this stuff written in print, I mean, 34 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: actually saying it that must have elicited quite some strong 35 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: feelings for me. It was just like so much to 36 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: process of, Like, holy sh it. The first reaction I 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: had was a gasp when I read a name that 38 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: was familiar to me and that I didn't know what 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: they had gone through because I know they're currently in therapy. 40 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: So it was it was very non surprising, but also disgusting, 41 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I need to take a walk after 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: reading all of this. So the lawyers used this raise 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: a culture of submission. I want to dig a little 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: deeper into that. What does that mean? How did it happen? 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: And perhaps even how did we let it happen. It's 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: about power, it's about hierarchy, and it's about accountability. The 47 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: kate is the power and privilege of senior postage. The 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: report that was sent to me says the most serious 49 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: incidents happened in New York because the senior past is 50 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: behavior was and a quote privileged, even when their conduct 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: was undesirable, immoral, or potentially illegal. So the lawyers say 52 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: it's difficult to establish what actually happened. Remember, the report 53 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: describes personal recollections and there was a lot of ill 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: will and some access to grind. But here's a list 55 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: of what the lawyers heard. First, allegations of consensual and 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: non consensual sex between leaders and congregants, staff volunteers, and 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: people outside the church. Second, allegations of sexual harassment and 58 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: hostile work environments. Third, allegations of cover ups design to 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: conceal ms conduct, and the list goes on. There are 60 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: claims of low wages that might have broken labor laws, 61 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: discrimination on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, and race, 62 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: and finally claims of non sexual harassment and abuse. There's 63 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: a quote that stood out for me on that last point. 64 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:06,279 Speaker 1: The lawyers talk about behavior designed to intimidate, humiliate, subjugate, 65 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: and exercise pala. This episode is all about abuse of 66 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: power in that word submission. It's weird, right. No one 67 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: at Hillsong said you've got to submit to abusive behavior. 68 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: There was no big banner next to welcome home saying 69 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: welcome to a culture of submission. Of course not you'd 70 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: run for the hills. But this isn't quite as mild 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: as it sounds. I want to go back to Jannis Lagata, 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: who we talked to in the first episode. She was 73 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: there at Hillsong, New York while this culture of submission 74 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: was happening. She was trying to change things, and she 75 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: felt she was failing. If, like Janice and me, you 76 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: come from a background of Pentecostalism, you might recognize a 77 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: little christian Ee happening here. To hear something like that, 78 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: like the culture of submission to the world, yeah, I 79 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: think that would sound wild. But in Christie Nity, that 80 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: would be not even just the tame part of that 81 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: report like that would almost that that's like a given, 82 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: Like submission is a word that I didn't realize as 83 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: someone who grew up in the church. That's not that's 84 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: not a normal word. Like, that's not a word you 85 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: just hear a lot. But all throughout childhood, as children, 86 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: you are submitting to your parents. As women, you are 87 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: submitting to men. As sheep, you are submitting to your shepherd. 88 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: As followers, you are submitting to your leader. And so 89 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: there is just a Christian culture of having to be 90 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: in community and having to have a leader, Like you 91 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: need to be submitted to somebody or something right, And 92 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: they'll tell you are submitted to something. And if it's 93 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: not God, maybe it's money, maybe it's sex, maybe it's drugs, 94 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: maybe it's your job up, maybe it's your relationship. Like 95 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: everyone is submitting to something, so you want to make 96 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: sure you're submitting to the right things. And yeah, if 97 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: you're part of Hillsong, then you have said this is 98 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: my church and these are my leaders. They are hearing 99 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: from God on behalf of this community which I am 100 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: a part of, and so I need to be submitted. 101 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: And who do you submit to? Well, the most senior 102 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: passes in Hillsong, New York were the ones with the power, 103 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: and we know from the report many people felt that 104 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: they couldn't challenge their behavior. My name's Ashley Easter. I'm 105 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: a cult survivor and abuse victim advocate. I'm also the 106 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: founder of Courage three sixty five, where we support survivors 107 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: of abuse. I think people would describe me as being 108 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: pretty fiery. I'm only five ft one, but I think 109 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: I pack a lot of punch in this small frame. 110 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: Some people have called me a witch. I've been told 111 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: that I'm rebellious and that rebellion in is like the 112 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: sin of witchcraft. Witchcraft is alliance with the devil, and 113 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: alliance with the devil will get you cast into hell. 114 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: And so I've certainly been called a rebellious woman. I've 115 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: been told that I just don't know what I'm talking about. 116 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I've confronted face to face 117 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: some tall, large men who have a lot of stature 118 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: and some of these church movements, and it's so interesting 119 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: to see them cower when you actually talk to them 120 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: in person. So I think that they try to dismiss me, 121 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: but I also think that I'm sort of that little 122 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: stone in their shoe. That I might be small, but 123 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: they can't really forget about me because I'm going to 124 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: keep calling them out, and I think that really annoys 125 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: them a lot. Actually worked with survivors of abuse at 126 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: different churches, and she campaigns for better safeguards and accountability. 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: We asked her to look at the claims in the 128 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: Hillsong Report and the Sexual Abuses Report it in New York. 129 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: This is your take on what she learned. So I 130 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: was looking at the sexual exploitation and the sexual abuse, 131 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: and the first thing that stood out to me is 132 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: that Hillsong seems to know that there's already a dangerous culture. 133 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: And the thing to start to pick up on that 134 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: was their conversation around the green rooms. So the green 135 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: rooms are basically, I assume where speakers go before they 136 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: go on stage, and they were talking about not allowing 137 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: loose women into the green rooms, basically with this ideology 138 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: that the men could not control themselves. These are pastors, 139 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be the cream of the 140 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: crop when it comes to morality, and they couldn't be 141 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: trusted to have women in the green room because nobody 142 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: knew what they would do. To me, that signals that 143 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: the church already knows that there is a culture a 144 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: misogyn that there's a culture of men blaming women for 145 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: their short falls, for their sexual abuse in many cases, 146 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: and putting the onus on women just not to be 147 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: available because these pastors and church leaders can't control themselves. 148 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: So that's what stood out to me first is it's 149 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: not just that there are these isolated instances of abuse, 150 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: of rape, of sexual assault, but there's a whole culture 151 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: where the church is even aware that they need to 152 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: keep women out of a green room around pastors because 153 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: they don't know what would happen. And keeping in mind, 154 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: the pastors in that situation are the ones with the 155 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,479 Speaker 1: power and control, not women who would walk into the room. 156 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: And I just want to add something on the green rooms. 157 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: Another quote really jumped out at me from the lawyers. 158 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: It says they didn't appear to be any effort to 159 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: exclude women who are attractive, to the contrary the in 160 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: ram saying to have selected beautiful helps. Only women with 161 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: history of sexual encounters were excluded. Yeah, and there are 162 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: multiple allegations of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, and inappropriate behavior 163 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: against quite a long list of people at Hillsong. People 164 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: also complained about misogynistic and dismissive behavior, and the teaching 165 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: of celibacy before marriage only seemed to be enforced against women. 166 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: Here's actually Easter again. Then there's this idea, this whole 167 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: culture of submission within Hillsong, where pastors, church leaders, ministers 168 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: are given this almost godlike honor, praise, and really worship 169 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: in some scenarios, and abuse is always, always, always motivated 170 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: by a lust for power and control, whether that sexual abuse, 171 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: verbal abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse. These aren't accidents. There 172 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: may be other factors like anger management issues or impulse controlled. 173 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: But ultimately, when it comes down to it, the choice 174 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: to abuse somebody is the choice to try to gain 175 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: power and control over them. So when you have a 176 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: culture where it's very hierarchical, particularly with the men, you 177 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: are going to find some sort of abuse because abuses 178 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: about power and control. So this whole culture lends to 179 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: dangerous things happening and being excused because who wants to 180 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: speak out about the Man of God. Now we come 181 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: to the allegations against one high ranking pasta. These are 182 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: the most serious allegations we've come across. It's a difficult 183 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: story to listen to The details we're going to share 184 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: with you are from a lawyer's report ordered by Hillsong 185 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: and leaked to out. We have concealed the woman's identity 186 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: and some of the most explicit details. At the center 187 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: is a hills passer called Read Bogarde, and a junior 188 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: staff member at Hillsong New York. Let's rewind to two 189 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen Hillsong leadership in Australia. It's told about what's 190 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: called misconducts between Read Bogarde, who's married, and an unmarried 191 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: junior staff member. They heard the pair had an affair 192 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: from fall two thousand and thirteen till early two thousand 193 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: and fourteen. Let's hear how Hillsong's own lawyer described what happened. 194 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: Hillsong did not conduct any meaningful inquiry into the details 195 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: or circumstances of the affair, and no one with appropriate 196 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: training was assigned to look into matters. No one at 197 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: any time ever probed for more information or tried to 198 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: discern how one of the most powerful men in the 199 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: New York church could have found himself in a sexual 200 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: relationship with a young, vulnerable junior staff member, and no 201 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: one appears to have questioned whether meaningful consent was possible, 202 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: let alone given the obvious power dynamic. So what action 203 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: did Hillsong take over these reports of an affair? Okay, 204 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: this is what happened. Read Bogard stood down publicly from 205 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: his platform for up to twelve months. Then he returned 206 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: to full pastoral duties, and later he got promoted to 207 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: the job of lead pastor at a new Hillsong church 208 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: in Dallas. Six years later, the same woman came forward 209 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: and said her sexual experience with read Bogard initially had 210 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: not been consensual. She said Mr Bogard had reaped her. 211 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,239 Speaker 1: That's when Hillsong lawyers were brought in and they interviewed 212 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: thirteen witnesses about the case. But the lawyers say because 213 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: of the passage of time and the lack of any 214 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: prior investigation, their own investigation was hampered. They also described 215 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: read Bogard as less than entirely reliable in his interviews, 216 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: and because there are no records or eyewitness accounts from 217 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: the time, it's difficult to find definitive conclusions about the truth. 218 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: Read Bogarde told investigators he had no recollection of the woman, 219 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 1: saying no, let's hear what the lawyers had to say 220 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: there can be no doubt that given the extreme power 221 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: imbalance between the two, as well as the don't say 222 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: no culture which permeated the New York Church, there was 223 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: ample opportunity for Mr Bogard to take advantage of a 224 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: systemic inability for the woman to have meaningfully consented at 225 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: the time in question, and to pick up on some 226 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: other issues the lawyers raise. They say read Bogarde put 227 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: pressure on the woman to sign a non disclosure agreement 228 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: as a condition of her employment, and he also urged 229 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: her to get a matching tattoo, even though she didn't 230 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: want one. We asked Ashley Easter to look at the case, 231 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: and she has a strong personal reaction to what she heard. 232 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: So when I read this case about this pasture, really 233 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: it was described as him initially raping the woman, sexually 234 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: assaulting her, and then drawing her into this relationship that 235 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: was long term. Personally, I would say that all of 236 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: that is sexual sault if it began with a power 237 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: differentiation and if there was a rape at the beginning. 238 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: But other things that I noticed about this case was 239 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: that it had such similar lines to what you would 240 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: see in a traditional sex slavery situation because not only 241 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: was there the sexual thought there, not only was there 242 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: the abuse of power, but it was then tied to 243 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: the woman's job. It was like, sign these papers or 244 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: you don't have a job, in the middle of him 245 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: having this sexualized power and control dynamic relationship with this woman. 246 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: So that is definitely something that you would see a 247 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: lot of times in sex trafficking and sexual slavery situations. 248 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: But then on top of that, he took it a 249 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: step farther and he did this, He encouraged this woman 250 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: to getting matching tattoo, and it was something that she 251 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: really didn't want to do it. It really is a 252 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: sign of ownership. Read Bogard left hill Song. No criminal 253 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: charges have been brought against him. We'll be asking Hill 254 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: Song to explain what action they've taken, whether they've introduced 255 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: new safeguards and reporting systems recommended by their lawyers, and 256 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: we'll be asking them to respond to another set of allegations, 257 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: this time about the exploitation of volunteers. I could probably 258 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: pull up the numbers right now, so on a Sunday, 259 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: every Sunday, I would collect numbers from all the teams 260 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: of who volunteered and what uh October one for the 261 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: ten am service, there were in the audience three hundred 262 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: and people and a total of four hundred and forty people, 263 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: and we had a hundred and one volunteers. This culture 264 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: of submission at Hillsong led to another type of abuse 265 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: as well, exploitation of volunteers and staff. The mega productions 266 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: like the one I helped run at Royale in Boston 267 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: rely on thousands of volunteers, and that's okay up to 268 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: a point. Every week they would do Captain of the week, 269 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: that's what they would call it. So it's just like 270 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: the volunteer who had stood out. They would give out 271 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: antela to whoever like got it, and they would give 272 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: you like a soccer band for team captain and it 273 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: said captain on it. So that was like your little 274 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: prize for being Captain of the week or volunteer of 275 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: the week. Josh comes did like a thank you for 276 00:17:50,520 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: volunteering with us small It's there's no calories. It felt 277 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: nice to be recognized for the work I was doing. 278 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: When I look at it now, um, when I look 279 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: at that video and watch it, it's it's really it 280 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: frustrates me because The words that Josh Comes was saying 281 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: in that video were very generic. He didn't really know me. 282 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: This happened September. I came out to my leader probably 283 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: like two months later, and I was never on stage 284 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: and never recognized again for anything. And I was there 285 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: every Sunday and not saying that like I'm bitter about 286 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: not having received recognition. I feel like during that time 287 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: of starting to question some thing's theologically, and so it 288 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: felt like a way to keep me in of like 289 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: where we're recognizing you, like stay. The investigators that New 290 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: York picked up on how this hierarchy really benefited the 291 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: church because it motivated people to give more time and 292 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: more effort to heal song and that could include some 293 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: pretty extreme expectations. Megan Fallon was one of the volunteers. 294 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: She showed her experience at the New York church with 295 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: the investigators and with us. I felt like I was 296 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: building God's church and I felt included and it felt 297 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: like a family. I made myself available all the time, 298 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: and I felt like I was welcoming people home like 299 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: that was what we were supposed to be doing. You know, 300 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: you don't realize it when you're in it. You know 301 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: what I mean, or you don't realize it until you're 302 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: too far in it. Looking back on it, they really 303 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: manipulate you into, you know, wanting to do different things. 304 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: And I look back at the things that I was 305 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: doing back then, like volunteering from six am to midnight, 306 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: and I really wanted to be a part of City Care, 307 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: which was painted as the outreach that they were going 308 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: to be doing to the community, and that's like what 309 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to do for a career, and so I 310 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: really wanted to get involved with that, but it was 311 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: really slow coming off the ground. So as a part 312 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: of the Connections team, I would volunteer for like different things, 313 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: and it was like working a full time job, you know, 314 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: but for free. But it was made to be like, well, 315 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: this is an honor and like, you know, when city 316 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 1: Care starts, you know, you'll get to be the main volunteer. 317 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, but they paint this picture that it's 318 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: adding up to something. And I remember the first Christmas again, 319 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: there was no city Care, there was nothing going on, 320 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: but they were taking donations at church for some nonprofit 321 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: organization to donate presents to children, and so I volunteered 322 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, great, so you can bring 323 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: them from church to your house and then bring them 324 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: to the place in the morning. But I lived on 325 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: like a sixth floor walk up on the upper east side, 326 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: and I had to bring hundreds of presents up all 327 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: of these stairs by myself, no help. But they were 328 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: all over the living room. Like I still have a 329 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: picture of me sitting in the middle of all these pictures, 330 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: like smiling looking back on that. Now, that's insane. I 331 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: wouldn't do that for my full time job, now, you 332 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: know what I mean. But back then it was for 333 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: free and it was awesome and it was an honor 334 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: that they considered me to help with this project. And 335 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: it's crazy thinking about that now. I'm just really curious, 336 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: where do you think that this culture came from, of 337 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: manipulation and of taking advantage of really well intentioned people. 338 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: Did it come from the top? Did it come from 339 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: Carl Was it just so deeply ingrained within the church? 340 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: You know, the folks that I was helping out they 341 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: learned that from someone. And so I think American culture 342 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: is a little bit different, right, and so I think 343 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: it probably was more so here. But you know, as 344 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: I continued to volunteer. And the more you got to 345 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: see that this was across the board. So when we 346 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: did conferences, when we had special guests come to speak, 347 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: they all had super outlandish requests and needs that we're 348 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: all required, right, and so um, it came from the topic, 349 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: came from Sydney, and this was just a norm. And 350 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: the pastors in New York are fairly young, and so 351 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: they were just following what was modeled to them. And 352 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 1: then it probably got a little bit out of control, 353 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: just because America's a little bit out of control. I'm 354 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: just wondering, if you have a talied up, how many 355 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: hours you actually did as a volunteer. Oh my god, 356 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: I could never do that because it's a number that 357 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean because even when I was technically working for them, 358 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: I was getting paid so little. It was basically volunteering too. 359 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: So you know, four years straight, doesn't it sound crazy? 360 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: But not so crazy if you in it. And joannicely 361 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: gotta picks up on a Christianese things happening here, You've 362 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: got to remember this really played into our sense of 363 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: duty and obligation. The word sacrifice. We don't walk around 364 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: talking about sacrificing all the time. But in Christianity you do, 365 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: and so your life is not your own. And the 366 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: deal is Jesus did for you. He gave his life 367 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: for you, and the least you can do is give 368 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: your life back. And so whatever part of your life 369 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: is needed, that's your money, If that's your time, that's 370 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: your energy, that's your your gifts and your talents. You're 371 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: giving it. And it seems crazy on this side of things, 372 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: because you are doing all this work and being encouraged 373 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: to give and keep giving by people who are getting 374 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: a lot. I don't have an issue with volunteerism, but 375 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: I think whatever the mode, whatever the model you're using is, 376 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 1: then everyone should be subject to that. So if you 377 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: want an all volunteer church, then the pastors need to 378 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: be volunteers too. But if you can't afford to pay 379 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: the pastor for the work that they're doing, then you 380 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: can afford to pay everyone for the work that they're doing. 381 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: And so it's just right right for abuse and for 382 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: robbing people's system when you are just drawing these arbitrary 383 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: lines about whose time is worth money and whose isn't. 384 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: Some people were giving a lot and others were getting 385 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: a lot, while volunteers and staff were giving hours of 386 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: unpaid work, even when some were struggling financially. It was 387 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: a different story for some pastors. For example, the lawyers 388 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: highlighted how a senior pastor would spend lavishly on the 389 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: church credit card for personal expenses, and at the same time, 390 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: juniorrself were held to a standard of perfection that the 391 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: lads didn't follow and if they complained, they were shamed. 392 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: And it really pisces me off to read this part 393 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: of the report, how volunteers were working their asses off 394 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: while Carl Lens spent like five thousand dollars on a 395 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: dinner with celebrities, and there are so many examples of 396 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: these ridiculous demands. Staff were on call seven. One of 397 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: the staff said he was called out at one fifteen 398 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: in the morning to set up a drum set for 399 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: Carl's son. Collins told the lawyers he had no recollection 400 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: of that, but he was very frank about his sexual 401 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: encounters with people inside and outside of Hillsong, giving very 402 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: detailed and explicit accounts of what happened. Of course, he 403 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: got fired for that and for what Hillsong called failures 404 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: of leadership. And you might be thinking, why didn't people 405 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: call out this stuff? Well, some did, but you've got 406 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: to understand this was a culture where staff and volunteers 407 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: were encouraged to be invisible in the presence of senior pastors. 408 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: They were taught to maintain a wall of silence about 409 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: the private lives of pastors. And in my experience in Boston, 410 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: one of the reasons they got away with this behavior 411 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: was by pinning us against each other. This is how 412 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: it operated between the volunteers during the stage operations, the 413 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: creative team and the rest of us. Creative team had 414 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: a green room where before service, during and after they 415 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: could use this room to go and rest and and eat, 416 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: and they would have their meetings in there, and no 417 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: one else was allowed, and they would have someone from 418 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: venue safety standing at the door. And if you didn't 419 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: have the credentials to go in there, you were not 420 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: allowed in. Inside of creative room, they would give them breakfast, lunch, 421 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: and sometimes even dinner, and they would I remember, they 422 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: would have things like pulled pork, salads, um sandwiches. They 423 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: would bring cake and fruit and muffins and doughnuts and 424 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: so much like a big table full of food and 425 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: and that was all paid for. But on the front 426 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: of house to eat, we created our own little corner 427 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: where we needed to have some water, and there wasn't 428 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: a budget for us, and we would put two little 429 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: couches in there and we would just go in there 430 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: and rest. Some people would go in there and just 431 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: cry or have an anxiety attack and like recover from it. 432 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: And and to think back, now, we kind of like 433 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: we're pinned against each other so that we didn't realize 434 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: that the system of hierarchy was created by them, by 435 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: the pastors, and we could retaliate and be like, I'm 436 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: no longer going to volunteer. If this is how you're 437 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: going to be treating people, for some to have more 438 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: privileged than others, it should be the same. And it 439 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: was getting to the point where this system of hierarchy 440 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: that they had created UM was causing people to to 441 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: have a lot of frustration and anger UM, and so 442 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: they would have to create lingos for people to cling 443 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: onto that. But I remember one year the lingo was 444 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: can you believe we get to do this? And often 445 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: people would be running around serving or volunteering however you 446 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: want to call it, and we would be getting anxiety 447 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: attacks and running into a room to drink some water 448 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: and calm down and have like a breathing exercise, and 449 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: I would sometimes do it with them because I was 450 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: also crying. And at the end of it, it it was 451 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: so bizarre because someone would be like, Wow, can you 452 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: believe we get to do this? And to think back 453 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: on the irony And that's how we were accepting all 454 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: of this abuse, because we were being brainwashed by saying 455 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: and repeating these lingos and thinking that us having an 456 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: anxiety attack and us being in this position of allowing 457 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: and accepting this amount of abuse was okay because we 458 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: were being honored with having the opportunity to volunteer for them. Hi, 459 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm Alodara. I am a psychotherapist based in Los Angeles 460 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: almost an author of Self Care for Black Woman. Should 461 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: I share about like my history with Hill Songarader was 462 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: part of hill Song for many years in New York 463 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: during the Lentz era, but also in New Jersey and 464 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: later in Los Angeles. She was a volunteer kids Pasta 465 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: and she left Hill Song in I'm okay with sharing. 466 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: It's part of the healing process, I would say. In 467 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: New York it felt very like like high school. I 468 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: think that might be the best way to put it, 469 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: in the sense of everyone's influenced by a Regina George. 470 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: I was ay, So if Carl Lenz was wearing jeans 471 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: and skinny pants and certain boots and had the eyes 472 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: of his head shaved, then there are a bunch of 473 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: men wearing skinny jeans and jean jacket and the side 474 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: of their head shaved. People changed the way they dressed 475 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: once they started joining Hillsong. They all dressed a certain 476 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: way and looked a certain way. That sounds pretty funny, 477 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: a bit dumb, but harmless, but buying the hip image 478 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: was a power structure with pastors at the top could 479 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: shut down descent and shame critics. It was a culture 480 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: that I felt like you weren't really allowed to speak 481 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: out against things that you didn't agree with. There's a 482 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: lot of keeping people in their place. Yes, you have 483 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: all these ideas of how things could be better, but 484 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: we're not going to take it into consideration because basically, 485 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: who were you for me? Whether you were exploited as 486 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: a volunteer, abused as a staffer, harmed by bulling and subjugation, 487 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: or discriminated against, you were spiritually abused. Remember this was church. 488 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to define spiritual abuse as using someone's spirituality 489 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: and vulnerability to kind of manipulate them into maybe doing 490 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: something they wouldn't want to do, in the sense disguised 491 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: as this is the culture. With cults. I hate to 492 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: say the C word, but I will say, in my 493 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: own perspective, I do believe that I was part of 494 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: a cult. That's just my own view. I know others 495 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: will disagree, but cults, you know, they tend to manipulate 496 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: the way you view yourself, the way you view the world, 497 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: the way you may view your finances, the way you 498 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: may speak, talk, etcetera. So I definitely feel like because 499 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: Hillsong had such a strong influence on the way people 500 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: would start living their lives after they joined the church, 501 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: I would say that there was definitely some spiritual abuse. 502 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: And most people who enter these spaces are vulnerable, are feeling, 503 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: are also genuinely just nice people, and so obviously you're 504 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: going to want to try to please your church. You're 505 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: gonna want to try to please your community because you 506 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 1: don't want to lose your community. So in that sense, 507 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: I would say, yes, there was definitely some spiritual abuse 508 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: at Hillsong, whether it was on purpose or just by accident. 509 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: I feel like when you're in an abusive relationship, you 510 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: actually don't realize you're in the abusive relationship. So I 511 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: would watch my friends leave and I wouldn't really understand why, 512 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: and I would make up excuses for the things they experienced. 513 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: So then when the scandal came out with Carl, it 514 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: basically shattered the core of my Christianity, which was very 515 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: action driven. Then you begin to rethink everything. You're like, Okay, 516 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: so while I was working my ass off at this church, 517 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: while I was volunteering twelve hour days, and you were 518 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: just coming in as like a rock star every now 519 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: and then, I definitely was like, wait a minute, I 520 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: was operating in this really wholesome spirituality. And then it 521 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: turns out that this whole time, some of the pastors 522 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: and the people who we looked up to word I 523 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: think the big question Hillsong needs to answer is what's changed? 524 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: What have you done to stop it happening across your 525 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: other churches all over the world. And my question is 526 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: when are you going to listen to people like Megan, 527 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: Janice Oludhara and me it's easy to say move on, 528 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: it's a few bad actors, it's just one branch of 529 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: a huge church. But is there something more at play, 530 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: something about Hillsong's model. Here's bos to vician again. We 531 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: heard from him in episode one. Boss represents victims of 532 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: abused and he believes there's a problem with the system 533 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: that turns pastors into stars. Let's just pick on the 534 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: Baptist church. You go to Baptist church, you go to 535 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: church every week, you sing some hymns, here's some announcements, 536 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: you provide money in the offering plate, and then the 537 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: whole service culminates in what the whole service culminates in 538 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: a pastor getting up in front of the group and 539 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: for thirty minutes if you're lucky, forty five or fifty 540 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: if you're not so lucky, speaking uninterrupted, weekend and week out. Now, 541 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: if we don't think that that in and of itself, 542 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: that structure is fueling narcissism and thus fueling the abuse 543 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: of those very members of that community, we're lying to ourselves. 544 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: We have made so much about the pastor and the preaching, 545 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: where that pastor ultimately ends up having complete control over 546 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: the congregation and also complete control over the other leaders 547 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: within the church because ultimate I saw this at Willow Creek, 548 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: a huge mega church up in Illinois, where the pastor 549 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: was engaged in misconduct, but nobody wanted to confront him 550 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: about it, because he was why everybody was coming to 551 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: this church. He was why people were putting hundreds of 552 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars in the offering plate every week to 553 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: keep this big machine running. And so if you get 554 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: rid of him, now, you can't pay your bills, you 555 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: can't pay your employees. And so it's very easy to 556 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: rationalize why we put up with and even sometimes embrace 557 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: this type of toxic and abusive leader for the greater 558 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: good of ministry, when an actuality, it's destroying the ministry 559 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: because it's destroying lives. Perhaps Hillsong learned its lesson from 560 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: what happened in New York, where the pastor's egos went 561 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: and checked and power was abused. We'll see as we 562 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: dig deeper in the series. I guess it's worth pointing 563 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: out that one reason we can read about these alleged 564 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: abieases in black and white is because Hillsong commissioned an 565 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: investigation and the results were lated. So what about the 566 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: report's own recommendations on this issue of passes who misuse 567 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: their power. The lawyers advised hill Song to introduce better 568 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: oversight of pastas and more robust complaints systems, But that 569 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: feels like a minimum to me, and I know a 570 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: lot of people believe the recommendations fell short. Ashley Easter, 571 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: who's looked at failings in many churches, is one of them. 572 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: There's some baseline things in there that could be useful, 573 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: but one of the big ones was writing a policy 574 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: to address abuse. And yes, write a policy, I'm not 575 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: knocking that, but when you write the policy, you need 576 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: to make sure that this policy is actually in favor 577 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: of the victims and people who are vulnerable and not 578 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: the church. The policies and procedures shouldn't first and foremost 579 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: be about how can I reduce liability for myself? It's 580 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: how can I make sure people you show up here 581 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: are safe and God forbid if something does happen, that 582 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: they are completely a supported. But then on top of that, 583 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: I didn't see anywhere in the report where they said, hey, 584 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: you should recommend as soon as the victim comes forward 585 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: for them to go talk to the police for you 586 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: to offer to pay for them to choose their own 587 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: license therapist so they can get the healing. You should 588 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: encourage them to seek their own legal support if that's 589 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: something that they want to do. Another thing to realize 590 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 1: about this report and the recommendations is, whenever you're getting 591 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: a report or having an investigation that is paid for 592 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: by the organization, victims are not going to be at 593 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: the forefront of their recommendations because the victims aren't paying 594 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: the check. The church is writing the check. Internal investigations 595 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: will sometimes highlight small areas, but they're not going to 596 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: really address the whole thing, and their focus is going 597 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: to be reducing liability. And one section that I read 598 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: that really screamed that this was the the ultimate goal 599 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: of this internal investigation by an attorney firm was this. 600 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: It said, at the same time that pr is important, 601 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: it is not necessary and not desirable to throw open 602 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: the doors of the investigation to bear all of the 603 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: church's dirty laundry, some matters from the past could cause 604 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: liability or embarrassment from the church. And then it goes 605 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: on and it says, instead, tell a new story of renewal. 606 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: In the next episode of False Profits, the revelations keep coming. 607 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: We're looking into the lifestyle of Hillsong pastors. The lawyers 608 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: start asking awkward questions about staff and money, and we 609 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: start unpacking the complex world of church finances with investigator 610 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: Barry Bowen. One of my favorite Bible verses is found 611 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 1: in Second Peter two, verse three, and the King James 612 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: version of the Bible. It talks about these false teachers 613 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: making merchandise of people, basically the ideas they've turned the 614 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: church into a marketplace. When you read that same verse 615 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: in the New Living Translation, it says, in their greed, 616 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: they will make up clever lives to get hold of 617 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,919 Speaker 1: your money. I just love that verse.