WEBVTT - Are we in cyber war? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:09.040 It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:17.960 tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello there, everybody, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.840 and welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette, 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.560 and I'm an editor here at how stuff works dot com. 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.920 Sitting next to me, as usual, with a sunny disposition, 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:32.400 is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. Hey there, and today, unfortunately, 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.360 we have some serious things to talk about. Actually, we 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:37.440 have some pretty scary stuff to talk about. This this 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.440 I think is even scarier than our zombie computers and 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:45.919 Halloween shows combined. Really, yeah, I think so. Okay, so 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:52.040 we're gonna talk today about cyber war. Are It's not 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:58.040 pirate war, cyber war cyber war, so we're all we're 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.600 not talking about tron here um, nor are we talking 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.039 about war games, both of which are awesome movies, so 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.080 put them to the top of your Netflix que um. No, 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:13.640 we're talking about using computers to either spy upon, or 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:20.560 sabotage or otherwise inflict some sort of harm upon a nation. Um. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.520 And this can be done by one of a dozen 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.880 different entities. That's the that's one of the scary things 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.800 about cyber war? Is that all? Right? So in classic warfare, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.639 you know, usually you you would talk about two different 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.920 nations or perhaps two different factions within a nation fighting 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:44.800 one another. Pretty easy to identify who the parties involved are, right, normally, Yeah, 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.520 because guys shooting at you, right, and normally they have, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.400 you know, uniforms of some kind on you know, not 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:52.720 to shoot your own guy. Yeah, yeah, there's some there's 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.360 some general little rules that make it easier to know 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.280 which guys are the ones you're supposed to be shooting. Um. 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.240 Cyber war is not quite that clean cut. But the 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.880 problem with cyber war is that the attacks can come 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.680 from anywhere. They can come from another country. They can 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.040 come from patriots within another country that are acting on 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.800 their own. That could come from essentially a mercenary, a 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.320 hacker that's hired to do this sort of thing. Um. 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:21.640 That could come from someone who's just trying to cause 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.320 mischief and they don't have any other motives. Uh. So 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:27.960 it's an attack that can come from another country, or 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.520 that they can come from within the country that is 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.639 being attacked. I mean, you know, you're talking about uh 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.200 sort of a cyber terrorism in a way. Yeah. And 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.800 as a matter of fact, hum, it could be somebody 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.560 sitting in his jammie, is in his living room in 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.120 the computer. You know, it doesn't need to be somebody out, 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.440 you know, skulking around the streets or you know, somewhere 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.240 in a foxhole. Heck, it could be someone parked in 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.919 your driveway hacking into your WiFi. Good point. I mean, 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.400 it's that's why we're talking about how scary this is. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.000 It's um and and on another level, it's also scary 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.280 because it takes so little, relatively speaking to uh, to 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.239 perform an effective cyber attack. Now, when you're talking about 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.680 a traditional attack on from one nation on to another, 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:18.400 you're talking about billions of dollars worth of of equipment, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.760 of of personnel. Uh, you know, the things that have 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.119 to go behind a war machine. I mean, we're that's 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.000 a huge investment. When you're talking about cyber attacks, you're 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:33.680 talking about a computer and a computer connection. And you know, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:35.560 you might have a couple of other little bells and 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.640 whistles to help you along, but you really you don't 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.040 necessarily need it if you know what you're doing and 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.640 you have the right software. So it's one of those things. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.120 Wherefore a very low small entrance fee, I guess you 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.440 could say you could have a huge, huge impact. As 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.640 a matter of fact, your computer could be used to 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.040 carry out a cyber attack. Yes, if you've if you've 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.880 installed some kind of malware like a virus or a 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.080 worm that UH can turn your machine into a zombie. 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.520 Someone else can direct your computer to UH to send 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.760 email and a denial of service attack which basically floods 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:18.160 UM floods computers with spam and other and other requests 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.200 if you will for information. The thing is that doesn't 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.880 require any cost on the part of on the part 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.000 of the attack at all, because all the machines are 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.120 essentially donated, you know, from somebody else, right and the 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:34.719 And to make matters worse, UH, when when anyone in 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.880 authority tries to trace the source of the attack, they 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.919 might come to your computer and never find the person 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.480 who actually infected your computer in the first place. So 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.840 then you become the person of interest, the person who's 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.440 under suspicion for committing an attack, and the whole time 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:55.320 you were completely unaware. UM. Actually, that's another big, big 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.520 issue with the cyber warfare problem. Even when you can 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.279 detect an attack and trace it back, you can never 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:06.240 be a sure that the last place you you trace 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.680 it back to is in fact the original spot of 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.360 the attack, because there are these you know, there's there 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.280 are things like proxy sites, there are these zombie computers 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.040 where there's always the possibility that there's one more link 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.080 you haven't found yet that will take you back even further. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.600 So that's uh, you know, if you if you uh, 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:28.760 if you were to detect, say an attack, and you say, well, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.919 we've traced it back to China, you can never be 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.880 sure that that the Chinese government was behind it. It 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.720 could have been patriots in China who had the same 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:39.720 sort of goals as the government of China, but we're 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:41.840 acting on their own. Or it could have even been 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.040 a people in a totally different country that just managed 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.280 to use proxy sites in China to fool you into 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:54.080 thinking that's where the attack came from. So it's really insidious, um, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.040 And you might wonder, well, how how vulnerable are we 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.720 to these sort of attacks? And I guess it really 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.520 depends on which system you're talking about, because you know, 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.600 the Internet is a network of networks, right right, So 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.839 any given network or any given computer could be the 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:15.000 weak spot, you know, and and there are just tons 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.480 of computers as part of the Internet. You know, every 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.440 time you were computer is hooked up for Internet access, 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.960 you become part of this giant cloud. Um So. And 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:29.239 then the really sophisticated crackers, those are the really nasty hackers. 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.360 Those are the ones who can find ways to manipulate 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.479 a network in ways that you know, most people don't 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.280 think of, right And and to give you an idea 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:43.640 of how vulnerable certain systems can be. Back in seven, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:48.480 there was a secret experiment the Department of Defense commissioned 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.680 and it was called Eligible Receiver. I remember that. Yeah, 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.640 this isn't This was a kind of an eye opener 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.640 um Now, a lot of Eligible Receiver. A lot of 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.760 that mission remains classified, so we don't know all the details. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.039 But what we do know is that part of the 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:09.119 the experiment involved getting a group of hackers together, giving 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:13.920 them some very basic computing hardware and software, and telling 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.480 them to try and break their way into the Pentagon's 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:22.160 computer system. And it took them three days using basic 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:28.320 computers and basic software. Uh, three days. Just for regular hackers, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.400 these aren't necessarily the people who are who have a 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.320 you know, an actual motive to break into the Pentagon, 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.840 and the fact that they're part of an experiment. Right, 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:38.720 it's not like they have a government breathing down their 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.560 next saying we need access to this information. Uh. So 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.280 that's that's pretty sobering to think that within three days 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.520 one of the nation's most important computing systems was compromised, 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.320 even though it was an inside job and an experiment. Right. Well, 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:00.560 they there have been attempts to shore that up since then, 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:05.880 and in fact, they conduct regular exercises in order to 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.120 do that. In fact, there was one not that long ago. 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:13.480 Every year they there are students from Army, Navy, Air Force, 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:15.600 and the Coast Guarden Merchant Marine, as well as the 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.720 Naval Postgraduate Academy and the Air Force Institute of Technology. 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.080 And uh, basically it's it's uh undergrads were given the 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.240 opportunity to defend themselves from an attack by the n 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:34.199 s a UM and uh every year they undergo this experiment. 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.320 And uh, the West Point held out the longest and 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.480 they the Army got to defend their title. But they 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:46.319 were using Lenox computers. But this is apparently a normal thing. Um. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.640 The Defense Department is only graduating eighties students a year 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.640 from schools of cyber war in the United States. According 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.080 to the New York Times article that I read about it, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.920 um and if you're wondering, this is the fifty seven 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.000 Information aggress Or Squadron. They're based in Nellis Air Force Base, 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.480 and they are they they are, they are. They make 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.959 a point of doing this test every year, and um, 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.760 you know they it's one of those things where they 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:18.600 are making a conscious effort to attack and defend uh 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.960 computer networks. And apparently the uh you know, the nerds 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.880 are nerds everywhere, even at West Point um according to 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.800 the way, according to the way the article was written, 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.079 they get a little ribbing for being the geeks of 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.960 the group. But even the you know, the the future 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.679 officers that graduate from their know the importance of the 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.640 computer network because that's one of the very first things 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.320 they do. They're about to deploy these guys to Afghanistan, 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:45.520 as a matter of fact, and the first thing they're 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.200 gonna do is set up a secure internet connection, and 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.720 they have to be ready to defend themselves against denial 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.959 denial of service attacks and uh another attacks. So I mean, 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.559 they're they're coming right out of the service academies with 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:05.319 knowledge of how to attack and to protect UM computer 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.240 networks military computer networks. Sure. UM. Usually we call those 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:14.280 sort of exercises red team attacks UM, where a group 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:19.080 is is designated to play the part of an UM 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.640 adversary and that's the red team. And the Red team's 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.600 job is to is to achieve their goals by whatever 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.440 means necessary. So in other words, you know, you're not 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.600 supposed to necessarily follow a certain protocol or rules. You're 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.160 supposed to be inventive and creative and try and find 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:39.439 new ways to to really compromise or defeat the other 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.719 team and UM, because that's exactly what the enemy is 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:44.320 going to do. You know, the enemy is not going 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.920 to play by rules necessarily, especially if you're talking about 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:49.760 enemies that you can't predict. I mean, they may not 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:54.600 even be directly involved with any other government or or 0:10:54.640 --> 0:11:00.000 official agency. So UM. And and you know, we government 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.280 websites and our government web servers and and systems aren't 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.240 the only targets. One of the big targets in the 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.319 United States, and it's been in the news quite a 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.080 bit over the spring of two thousand nine is the 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.320 electric grid and UH part of the problem with that 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.040 is that systems like the electric grid and and some 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.880 water and fuel systems are using UM using the software 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.640 that that directly ties into hardware, and if you just 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:31.240 change a few settings, you can cause catastrophic damage to 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.760 the the equipment. UM. There was a video that was 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:39.160 on CNN for a while where some uh, some electric 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.120 utility experts showed that with just a couple of tweaks, 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.760 you could completely destroy a generator by changing some settings 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.199 through the computer system, and they essentially turned a generator 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.760 into a pile of scrap metal. UM. Yeah, it was 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.120 very sobering to me to see that, because not that 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.040 long ago the news broke out that the United States 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.400 Electric red certain parts of it. Anyway, UH has been 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:10.320 under attack by some cyber spies over the last several years, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.679 and I don't really know who it is, right right right. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.600 They've traced them back mostly to China and Russia. But again, um, 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:18.960 both China and Russia deny that they had anything to 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.920 do with it. But I mean, of course, the thing 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.800 is it, you know, those countries are are gradually becoming 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:30.160 more and more uh, computer centric, and it you know, 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.720 it could be anybody, It could be you know, it 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.200 could it could be that they are directly involved um 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.679 or it could be that it's groups of of individuals 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:41.920 within those countries, or like we said, it could even 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.760 be that the attacks are ultimately originating somewhere else, but 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:46.800 we're only able to trace them back as far as 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.920 Russia and China. So that's that's the other issue with 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.440 the Internet is that it is a global entity, and 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.840 so law enforcement officials only have so much authority to 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.200 pursue cyber attacks. You know, they can cross over borders 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.080 easily on the Internet, but law enforcement can't. They don't 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.760 necessarily have the authority to pursue an investigation beyond the 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.880 borders of you know, whatever their jurisdiction is. So that 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.280 also makes life much more complicated when you're talking about 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.560 fending off cyber warfare attacks. Yeah, you know, uh, it 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:26.000 wasn't even that long ago that some countries were complaining 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:31.960 of real cyber attacks launched on their inner infrastructure, like 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.640 Estonia not too long ago, and uh they were blaming 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:37.800 the Russians for that attack. But that was back in 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:42.280 in two thousand seven, all those years ago. Yeah, all 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.600 those both years ago. Yeah, well, you know they say 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.400 that Internet time is sort of like dog years. It's 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.880 about that would make it about fourteen years ago in internet, 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.480 so I guess so, um yeah. And then of course 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.120 there's the example of the Dalai Lama's office that the 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:02.720 Tibetan office that was UH. They knew they were being watched. 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:08.280 They were absolutely certain that their systems had been compromised UM, 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.840 and they hired a Canadian firm to investigate. In the 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.599 Canadian firm found that indeed, there there were programs installed 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.960 upon the Dali lamas Uh computer systems, and that it 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.160 appeared to be coming from an offshore island off the 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:32.800 coast of a China. And the software even included UM 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.640 controls that would allow people on the other end to 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.480 activate audio and video software UM and hardware so that 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.600 they could turn on if the computer had a webcam 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:43.760 or a microphone, they could turn it on and turn 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.080 it into a remote listening station, so they could actually 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:52.720 spy on the goings on of these offices remotely. UM. So, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.440 I mean, this is a very real problem worldwide. It's 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.360 not just something that we have to worry about in 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.800 the United States or or you know, any other specific nation. 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.160 It's it's pretty much if if you have computers, there's 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.600 a good chance there's another party somewhere that's really interested 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.320 in finding out what you know and what you don't 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.400 know and what you're up to. Yea, And um there's 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.400 there's even another component to it that I know we 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.760 were gonna stick, uh mainly to talking about how you 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:25.680 could use computers to launch computer attacks. But um, another 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.040 facet of this that I think is interesting was sort 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.120 of relates to a blog post I wrote in early 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.960 April UM on the tech Stuff blog that that talked 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:40.240 about the Moldovan pro democracy protesters and they weren't launching 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.280 computer attacks, but what they were doing was using uh 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:49.080 social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook to coordinate their 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.880 efforts sort of like flash mobs. They could go ahead 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:57.560 and use computer networks like those and uh text messaging 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.960 to discuss where and when they were going to organize 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:05.880 and meet and hold a demonstration. So that's um, I mean, 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.760 that's you know, relying on the network staying up and 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.480 rather than taking them down. But UM, I just it's 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.640 just kind of funny because you know, you don't think 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.640 of you think of Facebook and Twitter or something we 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.000 use for fun or to to keep up with people 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.560 and just another way that you can use them to Actually, 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.000 I mean those could those could just as well have 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.400 been used to hold a violent, you know attack on someone. Say, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:31.840 you know, meet at this corner at one forty in 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.640 the afternoon. Uh, you know, and have everybody show up 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.600 and start fighting. Well, if the law enforcement is unaware 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:41.920 of it or the military forces are unaware of it, 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.480 you know, that could be a devastating attack, and it 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.040 could be used by virtually anybody. Sure, and uh, you know, 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.560 the dangers of these attacks go beyond just damaging a 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.720 network or shutting down a system. UM. One of the 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:59.200 big fears that that a lot of security folks have 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.800 is that what if you were to coordinate a physical 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.840 attack with a cyber attack. So what if you were 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.480 to target a major city and first you bring down 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.960 the city's power grid through a cyber attack, and then 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.440 you couple that with an actual physical attack link bombs 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:20.359 or or whatever, and that UM together, that would cause 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.720 a real panic because suddenly you have an entire population 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:28.119 that that doesn't have access to UM information the way 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.880 they normally would, and yet there is obviously chaos going on. 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.840 And uh that that really is the true definition of terrorism. There, 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.080 you're you're inspiring terror in the victim. UM. Now would 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.159 this be nationwide? Probably not. For one thing, the electric 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.560 grid is really much a pretty much a regional kind 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.640 of thing. UM. But it's something that every region could 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:58.120 theoretically be vulnerable to without the right security measures in place. Um. I. Now, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.399 that sort of attack obviously would have to come from 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.480 a much more organized group. UM. It would have to 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.159 come from a country or organization that had a strong 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.840 financial backing to be able to fund the physical side 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.560 of the attack. UM. So that that narrows down the 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.840 list of possible suspects who could do that. But it's 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.159 still within the realm of possibility. And it's one of 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.000 those things that you know, keep security people up at night. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:28.800 Sure sure UM. And you know, I'm really not certain 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.399 what we're going to be able to do short of 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.520 pulling all the plugs um to make it an impost 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.600 complete and utter impossibility that they could carry out those 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.800 kinds of attacks, because UM, it's just going to require 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.960 constant monitoring and searching for vulnerabilities. That's why the the 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:51.280 efforts of those who are participating in those um those 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:56.400 computer security uh war games. If you will. Um, they're 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:58.879 they're so important because they're searching, they're actively searching for 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.119 those vulnerabilities in the system and try, you know, to 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:02.959 try to find ways to patch them up before they 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.480 can be hacked into. But um, you know, I think 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.320 that any time that you update those systems, you're going 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.800 to open up new vulnerabilities and new problems. And you know, 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.480 it's just one of those things where the people who 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.640 whose job it is to pay attention to it are 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.879 just going to have to stay constantly vigilant to prevent 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.360 something like that from happening. And it is even more 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.080 complicated when you think that, you know, not every system 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.840 runs on the same software or operating system or whatever, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.440 so some of them are proprietary and uh and and 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.640 so you might find something that works as a great 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.479 security measure for one system, but it's not at all 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.520 applicable to any other. So it is a huge challenge. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.159 I mean, well, what's the response to that. Do you 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.280 go ahead and try and standardize everything so that hopefully 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.719 the same measures will work across the board. Because if 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.399 you do that and someone does find a vulnerability, suddenly 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.880 they've got a vulnerability that works across all systems. Right, So, 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.399 I mean it's a yeah, it's a double edged sword, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.200 and it's it's there are no easy answers. We've got 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.479 people who are way smarter than I am working on this, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.359 UM and I wish them the best because this is 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.479 this is scary stuff. Now. Are we all in danger 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.600 of something like this happening anytime soon? I don't know. 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:18.600 I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, I'm 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.800 not I'm not staying up at night worrying the next 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.879 day about that's going to be the day when the 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.360 cyber war attack is going to happen. But it's I mean, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.760 it is possible. It's just not necessarily something that you 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.439 know that I'm gonna have to worry about on a 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.679 day to day basis. Well, the more systems come online 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.480 UM in more places around the world, I think it's 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.439 going to be it becomes sort of like you know, 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.840 aerial assaults were after you know, that became a real 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.760 possibility in the twentieth century. It's it's going to be 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:54.200 something that a well planned military strategy is going to include. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:59.360 You've got your ground troops, you know, air, sea, and internet. 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.920 Anything that can take down the computer network, the computer 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:07.200 the communications network, the power grid all at one time. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.680 If you can do that, then you know you'll panic 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.280 the citizenry, and that just gives you a better chance. 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.280 I can pretty much guarantee that just about every modern 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.679 nation in the world has some sort of plan like 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.119 that in place. Um, and I can also guarantee that 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.520 they're not going to share that because that kind of 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.080 defeats the purpose of the plan. Yeah, but you know, 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.280 my internet connection goes down plenty without anybody attacking it. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.240 So and I occasionally lose power if I sneeze too hard, 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.560 so or maybe I blackout. It's one of the two 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:42.719 either way. Alright, then I'm done. I'm yeah, that's all 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.240 I have that divulge to the public. Now that we've 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:49.760 scared the pants off of you, it's time for listener 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:56.199 me fitness knows that scares the pants off me. And 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.439 you know what, in retrospect, the alarm noise is probably 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.320 not the most appropriate one to play the podcast holbably not. 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.560 I apologize, folks, I should have picked something like Kittens 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:11.960 Purring Kittens. Well, today's listener mail comes from Tom from Kansas. 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:14.520 When I call a radio station to try and win 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:16.439 a contest, would I have an advantage if I were 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.840 closer to the radio station, or closer to a tower 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.520 that's closest to the station. Sometimes when I call, I 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.320 never get through. Who's getting through? And why? Um? Tom, 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.119 I was getting through? No, Seriously, I used to have 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.919 like the bat phone into the local radio station. I 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.280 won so many tickets from that station that they actually 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.160 had to say, Hey, how long has it been since 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.359 the last time you won. I'd be like sixty two days, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:46.040 and your your policies is sixty hands them over? Um. 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.000 Does it help if I could just see you doing that? 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.360 Does it help if you're closer now? Does it help 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:56.679 if the tower is closer. No, these signals are moving 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.439 really really fast. Um. Otherwise you couldn't have a conversation 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:06.000 normal time. Exactly. These signals are moving essentially at the 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.080 speed of light, um, or close enough to it. Because 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.480 if you if they weren't moving that fast, if when 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.200 you spoke into the phone, the person on the other 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.879 end would experience a really long delay and then they 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:18.680 would hear you, and then they would speak, and you 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.880 would hear a really long pause, and then you would 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:23.760 hear them and then you'd speak. That's not how it happens. 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.840 Conversations have happened in near real time, so we're talking 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.600 about really really fast signals. Now, what is happening, Tom, 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:34.320 is that the radio station has only so many incoming 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.000 lines available. After that, you're going to get a busy 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.960