1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Hi, It's Sukha. There's been a lot of news from 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: North America this week as Trump kicks off his first 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: week in office. But in other news from South America, 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Brazil has named the COP thirty president. It's Andre Korea 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: the logo, and I had a chance to speak with 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: him back in Baku at COP twenty nine. We're bringing 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: you that episode again today, so take a listen, and 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: after that go check out the story from my colleague 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: Simon Iglesias, who got up with Andre shortly after the 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: announcement was made. We'll link that story in the show notes. 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to Zero. 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: I am Akshatrati this week Good Cop, Bad Cop. 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 3: I had to use it sometime. 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: I'm in Baku. Yes, still in Baku for COP twenty nine. 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: It's week to which means the biggest heads of state 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: have gone home, as have many climate celebrities like Al 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: Gore and Theresa May. Now negotiators are getting down to business. 18 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: We are still days away from knowing what agreement, if any, 19 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: might be reached, and Zero will come to you with 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: how it all went down next week. In the meantime, 21 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: there are already questions about what the next COP might 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: look like. 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: And for good reasons. 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: As we explode in a previous episode, the small state 25 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: of Azerbaijan has had its hands full in hosting fifty 26 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: thousand delegates and advocates who arrived in Baku from around 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: the world. Next year, Brazil will play host, but not 28 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: in Rio on sub Paolo. Instead, the conference is said 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: to be in the city of Belem, the gateway to 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: the Amazon, a beautiful coastal city that might not have 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: the infrastructure to host fifty thousand people, but Brazil has 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: been trying to position itself as a leader on climate 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: and it wants people who come to COP thirty to 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: realize what's on the line. But Brazil is also growing. 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: It's all in gas production and quickly reaching levels that 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: match the United Arab Emirates. So I was eager to 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: catch up with Andre core at the Logo, Brazil's Secretary 38 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: for Climate, Energy and the Environment. He's rumored to be 39 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: the next COP president, something he wouldn't confirm on the record, 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: but he wasn't shy in answering just how much Brazil 41 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: has to do to make COP thirty a success, from 42 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: challenging logistics to fracturing geopolitics, and what COP twenty nine 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: must get. 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: Right to give Brazil a better footing. 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: Andre, welcome to the show. 46 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: Hello, it's lovely to be here. 47 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: Now tell us what Brazil is hoping to get out 48 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: of COP twenty nine specifically. 49 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, you know that one of the basic principles 50 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: of brazil foreign policy is to strengthen multilateralism. So we want, 51 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: obviously Cop twenty nine to be very successful. We believe 52 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: in the UNFCCC, we believe in the Paris Accord, and 53 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: we have to show the world that this is the 54 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: right way of doing things. 55 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: And at Copter and nine there are going to be 56 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: two things that need to be worked on. One, it seems, 57 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: has already been worked on, which is Article six. Are 58 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: you happy with the Article six outcome? 59 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: I think that to have an outcome is already a 60 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: very good news. I like quite a lot the solution, 61 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: but now we have to transform it into something practical 62 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: because the problem is that we've been thinking about that 63 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: for nine years and we saw that in general, carbon 64 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: markets and everything else have been very complicated in recent years, 65 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: and I think that this decision will be extremely important 66 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: to put some order into that. We think that this 67 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: is a very important step. 68 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: So you know that among the things that were approved 69 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: our possibility of old credits being grandfathered into the Article 70 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: six program and they could be on sale as soon 71 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: as January one, twenty twenty five. And many of those 72 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: old credits, vast majority of them are renewable energy credits, 73 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: which many experts have said are junk and really should 74 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: not have been allowed to grandfather into a new market 75 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: that is hoping to be quite credible so that it 76 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: can sustain and it could grow. Are you not worried 77 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: about the credibility of the old offsets? 78 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: Look, we need to have environmental integrity in that operation 79 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: or we're going to destroy the already battered carbon market. 80 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: Carbon markets can be I think can be amazing, but 81 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: it's true that these years have been very confusing. So 82 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: we have to analyze that and somehow, you know, in 83 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: a negotiation, for good things to pass, sometimes you need 84 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: other things also to pass. So let's see how we 85 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: can manage that. We are very concerned with forestry credits 86 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: because we believe that they are the most important credits 87 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: possible because as we know, restoration of forests are probably 88 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: today the most science supported form of sink that you 89 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: can create. And these credits, for instance, have been very 90 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: much discredited. I'm sorry for using the word but and 91 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 2: this is absurd because if you believe in urgency to 92 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: fight climate change, you need to do the best possible 93 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 2: things as soon as possible. It's useless also to try 94 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 2: to do the perfect system if we know that we 95 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 2: have very few years ahead of us. So let's try 96 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: to be ambitious and at the same time to be 97 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: practical and not to be unhappy in three years when 98 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: we discovered that we could have done many things. Some 99 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: of them may fail, some of them may not have 100 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: environmental integrity, but let's concentrate on the majority. They try 101 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: to have the overwhelming majority of what do we do 102 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 2: with environmental integrity. 103 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: The second thing on the agenda is the new quantified 104 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 1: goal on climate finance, and that is crucial for developing 105 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: countries like Brazil, like India, but so many other developing 106 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: countries to step up their climate actions. And without a 107 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: good outcome on a larger amount of money supporting the 108 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: action of developing com you're not likely to get very 109 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: ambitious targets set under the nationally determined contributions, and that 110 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: will have so many downstream impacts it will affect COP thirty, 111 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: which is going to come to Brazil. So on NCQG, 112 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: where do you think things stand right now and how 113 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: much of an ambitious deal could we get. 114 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: We're not in the right direction. That I think is 115 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: quite clear, and I think that we have to understand 116 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: the Convention. Although we are all developing countries under a 117 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: certain category in the Convention. But the truth is that 118 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: you have some very low income countries that really need 119 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: full support. That it's even absurd to think that they 120 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: have to mitigate when they are absolutely not responsible for 121 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: emissions and they have to take care of schools, they 122 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: have to take care of health and other things, and 123 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: their action is not going to have such a big 124 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: impact because they emit very little. It's very unfair somehow. 125 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: And then you have the middle income developing countries like Brazil, 126 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: like Indonesia, like India, and we can do a lot 127 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: to mitigate climate change, and we are doing a lot 128 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: to mitigate climate change, and the sums that we're talking 129 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: about under the NCQG is very far from what we 130 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: know is reality. Most of the studies have been showing 131 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: that we're going to need trillians and we're talking about 132 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: some hundred billions that are very necessary. I'm not going 133 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: to say they are not necessary, but they are not 134 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: the full solution. And then you have to organize the 135 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: finance in a way that it can fulfill the needs 136 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: of the lower income countries, which I think the NCQG 137 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: can deal with that, but we need much more money 138 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: for these middle income countries to do what they need 139 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: to do, and this is not going to come in 140 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: the n seq G. I don't see the developed countries 141 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: having the same sense of urgency that they proclaim as 142 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: climate change. Our proclimaty is very close, it's very close, 143 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: but the this urgency is not in the finances. You 144 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: don't see the same sense of urgency. So what do 145 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: countries like in the Indonesia and Brazil, for instance, do 146 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: Brazil worked on that very hard on the G twenty 147 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: in our presidency of the G twenty now and how 148 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: much we have to mainstream climates into investments in general 149 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: and not in specific funds. We are huge economies, the 150 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: developing countries that are in the G twenty, and we 151 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 2: perfectly understand that it's not going to be grants, It's 152 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: not going to be that that is going to solve 153 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: our issue. The problem is that we pay too much 154 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: for foreign capital. We cannot afford to pay. It's completely 155 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 2: absurd that we have to pay such a high price 156 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: to have this capital. So we have to work on 157 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: many fields. So the NCQG is one of them. Is 158 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: extremely important, but we also have to be practical and 159 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: think that we have very few years ahead of it. 160 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: Yes, so if I am hearing you right, you're saying NCQG, 161 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: the needs are clearly in the trillions, but there is 162 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: very little possibility or political feasibility of the trillions being approved. 163 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 1: But the hundreds of billions may get approved, and that 164 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: means the gap has to be filled in other ways. 165 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: And those other ways are what. 166 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: The other ways are the mainstream of the economy. Countries 167 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: like Brazil, Indonesia or India. We are very investible countries. 168 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: I mean, there are many things to be done in 169 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: our countries and our economies are huge and our population 170 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: is huge, and so we have to lower the cost 171 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: of capital. I think will have an amazing impact. Then 172 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: you have also to recognize that countries like ours, including China, 173 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: we've been doing so many things inside our country without 174 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: foreign support and this is never taken into consideration. For instance, 175 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: fighting deforestation in Brazil, ninety percent of what we spend 176 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: is from our budget, is not international support. So this 177 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: recognition of what we're doing and the importance that we 178 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: invest in our own efforts to combat climate change is 179 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: not taken into consideration. So there is this very strange 180 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: idea of increasing the donor base, which is completely getting 181 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: out of the main subject. The main subject is what 182 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: are the developed countries going to provide for the developing 183 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 2: countries under the rules of the Paris Accord. 184 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: Are there steps that can be taken are being taken 185 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: to lower the cost of capital coming into Brazil, India 186 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: and Indonesia. 187 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: We're trying In the G twenty, I think that there 188 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: was quite a good progress because we put together for 189 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: the first time in the G twenty the ministers of 190 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: finance and the central bankers talking together with their ministers 191 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 2: of foreign Affairs and ministers of climate and it was 192 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: quite surprising because even in the developed countries they hardly 193 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: knew each other. So I think this is a progress. 194 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: But what really drives us is the sense of urgency, 195 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: and the sense of urgency cannot only be in ambition. 196 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 2: It has to be financed. It has to be action. 197 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 1: Where is the next G twenty happening. 198 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: In South Africa? So that's great, But I hear. 199 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: That the South African Economy ministry and the finance ministry 200 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: do not get on with each other, so they might 201 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: not do what you did so successfully under the Brazil 202 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: G twenty. Is that right? 203 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: I think that. I have to tell you that the 204 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: biggest differences between finance ministries and climate ministries that I 205 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: saw in the G twenty was in some European countries. 206 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: So do you think given the tense negotiations, which is 207 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: the case every COP, but especially when it comes to money, 208 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: and there's sorts of money we are talking at COP 209 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: twenty nine, do you think there will be a deal 210 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: at the end. 211 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 2: I do hope that because I hope that for two reasons, 212 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: First as a citizen of the planet, and second because 213 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: Brazil is going to preside the next COP, so we 214 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: need a successful COP twenty nine. 215 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: So between now and the next COP, Donald Trump is 216 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: going to come to power, and he has said that 217 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: he will pull the US out of the Paris Agreement, 218 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: which is something he did in his first term in 219 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Last time, around, the impact wasn't very much 220 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: cause of rules. He only left in November twenty twenty 221 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: and jan twenty twenty one, Joe Biden joined the US 222 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: into the Paris Agreement again. This time he can have 223 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: much greater impact because he will leave within a year, 224 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: and he could pull the US out of the UN 225 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: Climate Treaty altogether. So when you meet your US counterparts 226 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: right now who are from the Biden administration, do you 227 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: take them seriously? 228 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: I take them very seriously because they are really serious negotiators. 229 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: But we have to try to find a new way 230 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: of dealing with the US. But we cannot think that 231 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: the US is just the government of the US. The 232 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: US is universities, scientists, states, cities, and many of them, 233 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: most of them believe in climate change and believe the 234 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: things have to be done. So if you just take California, 235 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: it's one of the biggest economies in the world. So 236 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: if you concentrate your efforts on the sectors of the 237 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: US that can contribute to this debate, it's already a lot. 238 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: It's obvious that it would be much better to have 239 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: the whole government together. Now, what I also believe is 240 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: that even the most anti climate personality in America or whatever, 241 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: will rethink about it if he sees that he can 242 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: have profits working with climate change. So see for instance, Texas. 243 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: Texas has become one of the states of the United 244 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: States that uses most renewables with the wind energy, with 245 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: solar energy. Why it's not an ideological decision like people 246 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: say that California is. This was exclusively because of the cost, 247 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: because it was a good business. So for those who 248 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: don't believe in those discussions, let's talk with the language 249 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: of business with others. Let's talk with the appropriate language 250 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 2: of each one. 251 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: Say there is a deal at COP twenty nine on 252 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: the NCQG, and then the US pulls out of the 253 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: Paris Agreement. The US is the world's largest economy. It would, 254 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: I believe, have to promise the largest sum to be 255 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: given under the NCQG. If the US gets out, what 256 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: happens to the NCQG. 257 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: I think that it would be quite logical not to 258 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: expect the US to be one of the main funders 259 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: of the NCQG. 260 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: Even now, so going into the deal, you don't think that'll. 261 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: Happen because even if you're negotiating with the bide and administration, 262 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: the truth is that the signs that President Trump has 263 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: already shown are very clear. 264 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: And so if what happens at the NCQG and the 265 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: US is backtracking from its commitments shows up at COP thirty, 266 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: how are you going to make sure COP thirty is 267 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: a success. Because the NCQG will be a challenge. Not 268 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: enough countries will have submitted ambitious NDCs. They will look 269 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: at the US, the world's largest historical emitter, and say 270 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: they're out. Why should we contribute? And you get into 271 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: a new, bigger fight when you come to COP thirty. 272 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: So what are you doing now to avoid that? 273 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think we cannot avoid that. We have to 274 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: deal with that, and so we'll have to find some 275 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: intelligence answers to those intelligent questions. But that is reality. 276 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: We have to face reality like climate change if you 277 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: believe in it. So it's a big challenge, there is 278 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: no doubt about it. 279 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: After the break, more from my conversation with Brazilian Secretary 280 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: for Climate, Energy and the Environment Andre Corea the logo. 281 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 3: By the way, if you've been. 282 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: Enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and 283 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps 284 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: other listeners find the show. 285 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 2: Now. 286 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: COP thirty is currently scheduled to happen in Bellm. We 287 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: just got attendance figures today and there are expecting fifty 288 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: two thousand people coming to this COP. Now, this is 289 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: the capital of a country. It's a small country, but 290 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: it's the capital of a country, and you are able 291 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: to manage that crowd. My understanding is Bellim is a 292 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: really good place to go to just understand what the 293 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: Amazon is, but it's not got the capacity to host 294 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: fifty thousand people, let alone eighty thousand people which showed 295 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: up in Dubai. So what is the plan currently for 296 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: COP thirty in Brazil? 297 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: In Bellem? The plan is to have a COP that 298 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 2: is proportional to what the city can offer, but also 299 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: a COP that will leave a very positive legacy to 300 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: the city. So we cannot build pharonic things just for 301 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: a coup. If we are going to improve the city 302 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: for the COP, it's to improve the city itself and 303 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: there will be a legacy for the population. Now, we're 304 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: going to have to do it differently, obviously very differently 305 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: than Dubai was or what Baku is operating. But you 306 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: can be sure that we will be very transparent about 307 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 2: what is possible to have in Bilin. We have a 308 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: full team of the people that are organizing the Bilim 309 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: Cup here seeing all the challenges that we will have 310 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: to face. But the symbolism of having it in the Amazon, 311 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: and the fact that Brazil is developing countries with many 312 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: success stories but also with huge challenges. The fact that 313 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: Brazil assumes to do it in a complex place, I 314 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: think it has a fantastic political power. We are not 315 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: trying to hide the problems we have, and as you know, 316 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: deforestation is our main source of emissions. We have a 317 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: very strange profile of emissions. So we are taking the 318 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: world to the place where we have our biggest source 319 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: of emission, and we're going to show to the world 320 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: how complex the Amazon region is. With the best food 321 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: in Brazil on one side, the most beautiful natural place 322 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: you can imagine, but a city that still has lots 323 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 2: of very strong social challenges. So I think that it 324 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: is quite refreshing to have a country. Obviously I'm suspicious 325 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: because I'm Brazilian, but I'm quite proud of being a 326 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: country that doesn't hide its problem. It's a country that 327 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: is showing the world its problems. And let's try to 328 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 2: work on that. Everybody has its problem and we are 329 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: showing ours very clearly to everybody. 330 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: So how many people do you think, well, then will 331 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: be able to fit. 332 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: I think that the organizers are working on fifty thousand people. 333 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 2: They are working on fifty thousand, but President Lula wants 334 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: very strong participation of civil society. So we'll have to 335 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: measure how many people. I mean, because the negotiators, as 336 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: you know, is something that doesn't move very much, is 337 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 2: around twenty thousand people. Then you have the UNFCCC staff 338 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: is one hundred. There's like eight hundred two one thousand people. 339 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 2: So we're dealing with the realistic numbers. But President Lula 340 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 2: doesn't want, you know, to let's have less people from 341 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: civil society. No, we need lots of president civilzens. Yeah. 342 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: Now, Brazil produces more oil than the UAE does, and 343 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: President Lula has asked Petrobrass to produce even more oil. 344 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: How is that going to play in your NBC. 345 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 2: We have to you with this very very challenging reality 346 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,479 Speaker 2: is that last year Brazil's main expert was oil. So 347 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: from an economic point of view, this is obviously interpreted 348 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: by most of the Brazilians as something that we didn't expect, 349 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: and this only happened because of the incredible technological progress 350 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: of Petro Brass that is looking for oil in places 351 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: that are extremely complex and technologically difficult in places to 352 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: exploit oil. So there is a part of Brazil that 353 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: is extremely proud of Petrobras to have found oil in 354 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 2: such deep areas. And then on the other side, we 355 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 2: all are conscious that we have to transition away from 356 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 2: fossil fuels. So this is the big debate we're going 357 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: to have in Brazil next year because we have to 358 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: arrive at COP thirty lead by example as our Minister 359 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: of the environment, but in US a silver always says. 360 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: So over here, you're hoping there will be a big 361 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: financing push that will hopefully make it possible for countries 362 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: to come with new ambitions in Bellum at COP thirty. 363 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: What other metrics are you setting for success? First is 364 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: that countries need to come up with new ambition with 365 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: goals set out to twenty thirty five and ideally start 366 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: to finally reduce emissions that paces needed. What are the 367 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: other priorities? 368 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: I think that to try to make it as simple 369 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: as possible, we feel that urgency has to be everywhere 370 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: when we talk about climate change. So this is progress 371 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: in these debates that will make a huge difference. So 372 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 2: it's not only due an FECC. It's not only the 373 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: Paris Accord. It's the economy in general. It's the behavior 374 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: of people that have to take to consideration the urgency, 375 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: economic theory, ministries of finance, ministries of transportation. I mean, 376 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 2: it's not that's the sense of the n disis is 377 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: that the NDCs create a number that is an objective, 378 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: and each country is going to find its way to 379 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: reach it, and we have to do it together because, 380 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 2: as you are saying, if the richest country in the 381 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: world is going to backtrack maybe on some of its commitments, 382 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: why the others are going to follow. So we have 383 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: to build something really strong in which the world is 384 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: convinced of the urgency. How are we going to do that? 385 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: This I cannot give you the answer now. 386 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: So in a way, now COP thirty becomes how to 387 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: defend the climate consensus even as the US leaves the 388 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: Paris a card. 389 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but remember that when we say the US is 390 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 2: leaving us, scientists are not leaving us. Businesses, not living 391 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: and we have to think that the symbolic billionaire that 392 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: supports President Trump is eln Musk. Elon Musk is the 393 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 2: guy that made America fall in love with electric cars. 394 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: So there are many dimensions in America. We cannot oversimplify 395 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: what it is. And I mean, if the oil companies 396 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: find a way of contributing to the transition away from 397 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: fossil fuels, that would be super welcome. I mean everybody 398 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: has to come with solutions in their own way, in 399 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: a reasonable with reasonable costs, and with reasonable social costs. 400 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: Because we have seen in some countries that the fight 401 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 2: against climate change has made some of the basic services 402 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: more expensive. This is not the solution. You lose the 403 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: support of the population for this fight. 404 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward to the new Brazil climate plan. 405 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: But giving Petro Brass is state backed, are we also 406 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: going to see a new climate plan from your state 407 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: backed oil company. 408 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: Ah, that's a good question. Let's talk to Peter Brass together. 409 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on the show. 410 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Thank you for listening to zero. 411 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: And now for the sound of the week. This is 412 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: the sound of cop Every year, almost always there is 413 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: wooden flooring newly put to turn something into a cop 414 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: venue and have thousands and thousands of people walk across it, 415 00:26:52,400 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: making this drumbeat of a noise that's the sound of 416 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: the footsteps inside the Baku Olympic Stadium, the drumbeat that 417 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: dictates the pace of negotiations. If you liked this episode, 418 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate or review the show 419 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Also check out Bloombergreen's coverage 420 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: of COP twenty nine. It's free to read, share this 421 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: episode with a friend or with someone who is ready 422 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: to plan a trip to Brazil in twenty twenty five. 423 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: You can get in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg 424 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: dot net. Zero's producer is might Lee Raw. Bloomberg's head 425 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: a podcast is Sage Bauman, and head of Talk is 426 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Brendan newnan. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special 427 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: thanks to Simone Iglesias, Chowan Wagner, Ethan Steinberg, Blake Maples 428 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: and Jessica bank I am Aksha Thrati Back soon.