1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, Welcome back to Killers amongst us, 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: the production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. We are investigating 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: the disappearance of a beautiful young girl, Corina Patronto, who 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: goes missing in broad daylight while jogging in a popular park. 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: Corina's dad, Phil joins us this week, as does Newsday 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: reporter Tony de Stefano. Also with US renowned psychologist doctor 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig and detective Steve Lampley. Also in the house 8 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the State of Florida. 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: We pick up the investigation police trying to piece together 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: evidence and potential DNA without a match. What will be 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: the key to solve Corina's brutal murder? Will that clue, 12 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: that critical clue be a long forgotten note by an 13 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: awful duty cop one emergency? Um, it looks like a kid. 14 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: There's a bombing a house, Nancy Grace, Killers, unlit stas 15 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: you ameber backyards, back yard? What's the location? Howard being 16 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: in New York right now, He's sitting on the curb. 17 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: He definitely don't blow there, Okay? Is the black white 18 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: Hispanic agent. He's black American white sweatshirt, black pants with 19 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: the hood I'm sorry, what call is the shirt white 20 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: white sweatshirt, hoodie, white sweatshirt and a white sweashirt and 21 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: the hoodie or the hoodie, sweashirt, white white hooded sweatshirt. Okay, pants, 22 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: black pants, and now he's in the front of the house, 23 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: in the out of the backyards place. It looks like 24 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: he's a crowbar on the floor something. Somebody, my neighbor. 25 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: He had told me that he was walking around yesterday, 26 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: so he was also the yesterday und yesterday. Yes, I'm 27 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: definitely going to make ano. You are hearing the voice 28 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: of Angelo Canino, who lives in the neighborhood at Howard Beach, 29 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: and calls him when he sees a suspicious person trying 30 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: to break into a home. But that person had been 31 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: spotted before wandering around with a crowbar in his hand, 32 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: looking in windows. Finally, all the tips, all the police work, 33 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: all the forensics, and it boils down to a neighbor 34 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: seeing a guy walking around in the neighborhood with a crowbar. 35 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: That guy raises the suspicion of police and he's apprehended. 36 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: With me right now. Karina's father, Phil Vatronto Newsday reporter 37 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: Tony DeStefano, psychologist, doctor Robbie Ludwig and forensic expert with 38 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: Bare Bones consulting Karen Smith, Phil Vatronto. As a matter 39 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: of fact, Angelo Ganino lives not too far from you 40 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: at all. Do you think this guy Chanel Lewis had 41 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: walked by your home? Andy Little lives about one hundred 42 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: and fifty foot away, and he has told me that 43 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: he saw him walking down my block also, and other 44 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: people have told me, so it's a good possibility that 45 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: he saw Karina before, and I believe he was waiting 46 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: for her, you know, to Tony DeStefano, Newsday reporter, So 47 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: they get this guy who's basically a loiterer in the neighborhood. 48 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: People that see him, they know he doesn't live there 49 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: because they're not that many homes there along the Howard 50 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: Beach area, and the ones that are there, everybody knows 51 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: each other. It reminds me of our neighborhood growing up, Tony. 52 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean, there were only four houses when I grew up, 53 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: and we all knew who they were. I could tell 54 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: you right now. It was our house, Beverly Wilson's house, 55 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: her father's house. And let's say there was one more 56 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: that would have been the Matthews. We knew all of 57 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: them same thing here. So when they see this guy 58 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: walking around with the crowbar, everybody goes, hey, who's hey? 59 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: You know Lewis and his walks stood out, as mister 60 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: Garno noted, he was doing things that raised his suspicions, 61 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: and of course he called the cops Quel nine one one, 62 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: and that started the ball rolling, you know, just to recap, 63 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: they didn't arrest, you know, Lewis that day. They simply 64 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: took his information. They didn't see him doing anything wrong 65 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: the police at that point, but they had his name 66 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: in somebody's memo book, so later on this would raise 67 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: questions and officer Lieutenant Russo's mind his recollections about this 68 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: fellow loitering in the neighborhood. So this is a crucial break, 69 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: Tony to Stephano, you are absolutely correct. And what's so 70 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: amazing Karen Smith with me, with her law enforcement background, 71 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: forensic expert with Beer Bones Consulting, did you hear what 72 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: Stefano just said. Did people see this guy loitering and 73 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: it didn't even rise to a police report? The police 74 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: officer just wrote it down as a memo in a notebook, 75 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: and thank god that he did, right, Yes, we did. 76 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: We called them field investigative reports. They're not official police reports. 77 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: But if we saw a suspicious person around, let's say, 78 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: an armed robbery or something like that, and they just 79 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: didn't look right, we could stop them. We could get 80 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: their information on what's called an fire a field investigative report. 81 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: It's not filed. You keep it in your filebook. You 82 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: turn it into your sergeant at the end of the 83 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: day and it just goes into a file. And those 84 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: are used a lot of the time to weave down suspects. 85 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: We use them all the time, Nancy. And what's so 86 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: amazing and frankly a miracle. Miraculously this happens. They see 87 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: the guy Lloyd Ring walking around with the crowbar. They 88 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: know he doesn't live there. It's not even a police 89 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: report because he didn't catch him doing anything technically wrong, 90 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: all right, So they write it down as a memo 91 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: and it's in somebody's notebook. Time passes and then as 92 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: Tony to Stephano and Neuesday points out accurately, listen to 93 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Lieutenant John Russ and I'm one way the emergency, suspicious trail, 94 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: a sufficious amen or male like pizza mel you only 95 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: in a single mile? Am in? They're wondering? Okay, wait, 96 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: matt um certain what is the address of the emergency? 97 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: Or close the corner of one sixty four uh huh 98 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: Avenue and a seventh Street? How wild? Okay? So it's 99 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: one sixty four Avenue? And what was the other street? 100 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: Stir in the OFN three eight seven Street? And is 101 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: he in front of a certain location or bill? No, 102 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: he's walking around if you're walking around the block? Okay, 103 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: Hold on one second, So on one sixty fourth in 104 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: eighty seven street, and this is in Queens, correct, And 105 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: you said Howard Beach okay, so, and he's a suspicious 106 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: person just walking back and forth around the block. Here 107 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: is looking in yards around different blocks to blow himself. 108 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: And with that one phone call, Chanelle Lewis is apprehended. 109 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: Was it a hunch or was it months and months 110 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: of searching and then suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, 111 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: in one twist, every thing changes. Listen to this. Now, 112 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: while you're in the park, does something happened? Yes? What 113 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: happened while you're in the park? Punk just girl jog 114 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: in it? You know, one thing left to another loocause 115 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: we'll get some other situation. All right, Well the girl 116 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: that was jogging? Was she buy yourself or with anybody else? 117 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: By herself? Um? What does he look like? What was 118 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: he wearing? Was going a especially uncause you went? You 119 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: got a tank top? Maybe? Okay? What kind of pants? 120 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: I want? Were they long or short? Do you remember? 121 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Remember they long pants or short pants? Okay? Um? And 122 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: was he was he jogging? Was she coming from the 123 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: same direction that you came from when you entered the park? 124 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: We got out the direction? It's okay. And when you 125 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: first saw her? Where were you? Were you in the 126 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: grass or were you're on the trail on the trail? 127 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: All right? And were you moving or you were you 128 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: standing still? I was moving? Toto too? Music? You were 129 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: you were walking or jogging? Walking? Walking? Are you were 130 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: walking towards her? Was walking towards? And then let's side 131 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: to side and then anything that's there? You were hearing 132 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: this guy who ostensibly had done nothing but loitering and 133 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: potentially breaking into a home. Lieutenant Russo's memory was jogged 134 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: as they all racked their brains and tried every investigative 135 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: tool possible to solve the case. You know. To doctor 136 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig Psychologists, joining me from her Facebook live program 137 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: in Times Square, Doctor Robbie Ludwig, I say, there's no 138 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: such thing as hunches. We think they're hunches, but they're 139 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: really born off thousands of years of evolution of things. 140 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: Our body. Our body is like one big radar unit 141 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: picking up on smells, things you hear, gestures, looks, sounds 142 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: that other people may make. Just it's the slightest thing. 143 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: And we call it a hunch because we don't really 144 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: know where the idea comes from. But this is one 145 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: heck of a hunch. Yeah, this is incredible. I mean, 146 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: it is amazing police work that took place here. I'm 147 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: truly amazed. And it just underscores the importance of when 148 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: you see something, say something, because when something doesn't seem right, 149 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: it certainly is worth pursuing and following up on. And 150 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: so that's what this bystander did. He saw something that 151 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: seemed unusual, that seems suspicious, and it turned out that 152 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: it really solved the case. But as it also turns out, 153 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: Robbie are right, the bystander happened to be a cop, 154 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: and cops smell trouble. Also, I'm going to point out 155 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: that Phil Viatronto was a long time firefighter, so he 156 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: was like a brother to these police officers and they 157 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: were just working twenty four seven to help him. Before 158 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: I go any further, I want to ask you, Pheil, 159 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: do you mind hearing what Channel Lewis is about to 160 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,239 Speaker 1: say twenty times already? Nancy, I know, I know it verbatim, 161 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: so no, I don't mind. You know, I just love 162 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: you and your wife so much and I do not 163 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: want to be part of hurting your feelings at all. 164 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: You can't. And what you were talking about earlier about hunches. 165 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: I got that intuition when I was sitting on the 166 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: couch and I call it intuition, and you're right, it 167 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: is a primal, well you can call it a some 168 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: kind of mechanism that we had when we were close 169 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: to being animals, and you have to trust your intuition. 170 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: And ever since that moment, I always trust my intuition 171 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: because that's what it is. It goes back to wherever 172 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: it goes back to. But it is an an instinctive 173 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: ability that we once had and now we disallow it. 174 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: You know, you said, it's so much better than I did. Hey, 175 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: with all that in mind, take a listen to Janelle 176 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: Lewis and when you grabbed her? What happened then start 177 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: hitting arrow and stuff like that? All right? Now? Um, 178 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: did you hit it with both hands? Probably? Yeah? All right? 179 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: And what part of her body to hit with your hands? Any? Everybody? 180 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: Her face? Just a face? All right? About how many 181 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: times did you hit her in the face? On five? 182 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: All right? Was he standing when you started to hit her? 183 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: Or was he on the ground? He was on the ground, okay, 184 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: So did she When did she fall to the ground 185 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: after you grabbed her? All right? Now, when she fell 186 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: to the ground, was he lying in the path or 187 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: was he off the path the pathway? When when she 188 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: when she fell to the ground and you were hitting her, 189 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: was he on the pathway or was he off the 190 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: pathway on the pathway? All right? You are here Chanelle 191 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: Lewis describing how he came upon Karina Vatranto and started 192 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: beating her. And I noticed, and I've noticed this over many, 193 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: many years of interrogating suspects, reading their confessions, watching their confessions, 194 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: they'll go right up to the moment, the critical moment, 195 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: ie the time of the gunshot, at the time of 196 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: the rape, the time of the robbery, and somehow at 197 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: that moment everything kind of gets vague. They've got perfect 198 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: memory up till right then. I noticed he was saying 199 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: he started hitting her and quote stuff like that, and 200 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: then his voice trails off. Take a listen to this. 201 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: Did she say anything at all? Well? Did she screaming, 202 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry? Can put book? What are you clubbing her 203 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: mouth at all? No? Okay? Um? The tooth that broke? 204 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: Was it like in the front, the top of the bottom? 205 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: Do you remember? Okay? How long would you say you 206 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: were hitting her for? About? How how long in time? 207 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: I mean, no thing about farmings? Five minutes? All right? 208 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: And did you do anything else to it besides hitter? 209 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: Did you put her hands on any other part of 210 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: her body, m up, around her neck or anything? Yeah? 211 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: The sorry? Yeah? Did you put her hands on ack 212 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: or around the neck? Okay? Do remember? Was it one 213 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: hand in both hands? Well? Both? All? Right? Then? How 214 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: long did you have your hands around her neck? Okay? 215 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: Did you squeeze her neck when you had your hands 216 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: around her neck? Yeah? Yeah, okay, you don't remember but 217 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: how long though, Okay, it was mad at it incident. 218 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: You were mad about an incident. Okay, we're gonna get 219 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: to that in a little bit or right. I just 220 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: want to find what happened, really mad about an incident. 221 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: He had never met Karinava Toronto in his life. Now. 222 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: I was listening very carefully, but Tony to Stephano Newsday reporter, 223 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: they're talking about Karna's tooth, her teeth being broken. But 224 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: when they asked, did you hit her in the mouth? 225 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: Did he say no? It's hard to tell from you know, 226 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: some of that mumbling and low voice where he had 227 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: indicated that her tooth broke, that's clear from you know, 228 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: from the from the tape. Um he seemed to indicate 229 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: to me that you know, he had he had hit her. Uh, 230 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: certainly in the mouth and face. We had a broken 231 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: we had a chip tooth that we know of from 232 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: the autopsy. Uh. So it becomes you know, there's a 233 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: lot that he says that he doesn't say, you're it's 234 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: a little vague. Yeah, at the moment of the critical moment, 235 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: he seems to veer off. Do you notice that Phil 236 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: the Toronto Yes, he tried First of all, he never 237 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: admitted to the sexual assault because he admitted to murdering her, 238 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: hemitted to strangling her, but he wouldn't admit to the 239 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: sexual assault. I didn't touch her there. I didn't touch 240 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: her anybody or else. And I think he's a lot 241 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: smarter than people think he is. What kind of top? 242 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: What kind of pants? I mean, he knew damn well 243 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: that she was wearing shorts because he pulled them down. Yeah, 244 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: he he doesn't. He kind of brings himself away from 245 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: the situation as much as he could and just admitting 246 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: to certain things. I want to clarify for everyone. She 247 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: was raped. She was raped. He was convicted of rape. 248 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: So why do I keep hearing he didn't finish a 249 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: sex attack, He raped her and he was convicted of right. 250 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: H Nancy if fightmag interject, this is county. Yes, Yes, 251 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: it wasn't as defined in New York as rape. It 252 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: was a sexual aggravated sexual abuse. Uh uh and that 253 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: you know there is a legal distinction, and I'm sure 254 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: you can, you know you can, you can appreciate that. 255 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: But there was sexual trauma on Koreana. Okay, So we 256 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: keep saying that she was not he didn't finish a 257 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: sex attack. They did get DNA and he did sex 258 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: attack her. Listen, when you lived here in the grist 259 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: what we were close to long? What was the status 260 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: of her clothing? I was I was clothing full off? 261 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: Pulled off? Yeah? Okay? What was pulled off? I felt closed? 262 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: Her shirt, her pants, her pants? What about his shirt? Sure? 263 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: Stinking was still at still made me me? Okay? Then 264 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: when you say her pants were pulled off, were they 265 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: totally off or with a half on a half off? 266 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: What were they kind of half off? Okay? Um? Were 267 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: they down or up? I mean her pants club lay down? Okay? 268 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: What about her underwear? Maybe it was down't okay? Did 269 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: you um touch her in any way her her her 270 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: her vagina, or her anus at all at all? Okay? 271 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: Well we know that to be completely false. What is 272 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: it to doctor Robbie Ludwig? Now we need a shrink. 273 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: He will admit to beating her, that her teeth were broken, 274 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: that he attacked her over some previous incident. That's very vague. 275 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: But when it gets down to how did her pants 276 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: get pulled down? And we know the damage done to 277 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: her private parts, We know all about that from the 278 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: medical examiner's report, but that he won't admit to. What 279 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: is that? I wonder what sex means to this killer. 280 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing to be a murderer. That 281 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: almost sounds very macho, right, You're strong, you're macho, you're powerful, 282 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: you're the king of your own world. But sexual assault 283 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: may mean something different to him. And actually it could 284 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: have been the whole trigger for the murder, that he 285 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: was sexually excited by this woman and by women in general. 286 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: And you know, this primal urge took over that he 287 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: had some shame and guilt about because I am guessing 288 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: this is somebody who nobody wanted to have sex with. 289 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: So there in lies some problem with him, and on 290 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: some level he knows it and feels ashamed about it. Well, 291 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: if I may interject, Championsai, Okay, he has a mommy issue. 292 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: The reason he wouldn't admit to the sexual assault because 293 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: his mother would be ashamed of that. And we know 294 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: that because he has a mother issue, and that is 295 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: the reason he would not take complete because he could 296 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: never admit in front of his mother what he had done. 297 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to say too. I just want 298 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: to say too that you know it's very interesting that 299 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: we have a rapist killer who has mommy issues because 300 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: I imagine the original rage towards women stems from his mother. 301 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: But if he was ashamed to admit to rape in 302 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: front of his mother, then he also has internalized that 303 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: shame in himself. Sadly, that shame did not stop him 304 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: from behaving in this impulsive way, because I think he 305 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: just had primal urges that he couldn't stop himself from 306 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: and that could have contributed to the murder as well. 307 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: To Peel, the Toronto Karina is a dad with us, Phil, 308 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: what do you mean, how do you know about the 309 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: mommy issues and what exactly do you mean by that? Well, 310 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: we know for a fact that his mother was a 311 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: very dominating, domineering person, and you know, even when he 312 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: was arrested, her response was, God didn't give me no killer. 313 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: And yet that's true, God didn't give give her a killer. 314 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: He was made and he had issues and his issues 315 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: were not addressed. He was on medication until he got 316 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: out of high school and then he was just allowed 317 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: to roam the streets. He had no job, no friends, 318 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: no girlfriend, and he lived with his mother and he 319 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: used to as in the defensive summation. He used to 320 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: rub his mother's feet and definitely had mommy issues and 321 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: female is very very strong rage issues about women. Wow, 322 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just a JD. Juris doctorate, just a lawyer. 323 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: You would need like a whole team of psychiatrists flown 324 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: in from Prague, Okay to figure this thing out. But 325 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: I do know that rage at one woman in your 326 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: life can turn into it can be projected on other women. 327 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: And I don't understand it, but I know that it's 328 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: true because I've seen it so many times. And the 329 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: rage he and it's not about sex, It's about anger 330 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: and rage, and that's exactly what he unleashed on Carina. 331 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: The Toronto with me now the medical examiner for the 332 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: State of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher, a renowned medical examiner. 333 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: Dotor Gallagher, thank you for spending time with us. You know, 334 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: as testimony came out in trial, family members actually had 335 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 1: to cradle hold Karina's mother, Kathy while the medical examiner 336 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: reviewed autopsy photos regarding the extensive bruising, the injuries, the 337 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: lacerations on her daughter Karina's body. Her teeth were knocked 338 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: out of her mouth, her neck, was bruised with the 339 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: imprint of fingerprints. She was strangled so tightly she was 340 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: truly truly brutalized. You have studied the autopsy of Karina Vatrono. 341 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: Autopsies are very, very detailed, doctor Gallagher. What have you 342 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: learned about the injuries Karina Vatrono sustained? Well, I learned 343 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: that she received potentially fatal injuries to her neck area, 344 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: most likely in the form of strangulation. The tissue around 345 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: her neck, the musculature, and the blood vessels have been 346 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: broken and deeply injured, to the point where it appears 347 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: as though she met her death via strangulation. Well, we 348 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: know that her injuries were so severe that it was 349 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: first believed she had been murdered by quote multiple assailants. 350 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: There were there were so many injuries to her. Now, 351 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: let me understand, how do they determine the cod cause 352 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: of death was by asphyxiation, strangulation, manual strangulation. Well, the 353 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: cause of death is always a product of elimination. People 354 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: only die four different ways. You could die of natural disease, 355 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: you can die of an accident, you can die of suicide, 356 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: or you can die of homicide. If you were able 357 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: to rule out that she died as a result of 358 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: an accident. And as you can rule out she died, 359 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: she did not die of natural disease or suicide. That 360 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: would leave homicide. And in order to substantiate a diagnosis 361 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: of homicide, there must be fatal injuries on the person 362 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: that occurred as a result of being assaulted by another person. 363 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: So those are the types of injuries that we key 364 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: in on when we've eliminated the other possibilities. The senior 365 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: medical examiner, doctor Margaret Preel, conducted the autopsy, and she 366 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: did that just twelve hours after Carina was murdered. How 367 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: could the medical examiner figure out that she had only 368 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: been dead twelve hours? How do you come up with 369 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: that exact number? Well, it's not an exact number. It's 370 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: often arranged and it is determined by the amount of 371 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: a decomposition when a body. When somebody dies, they immediately 372 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: start to decompose, and a trained medical examiner can tell 373 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: by the amount of decomposition approximately when the cause of 374 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: death was I'm sorry, when the time of death occurred. 375 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: What were your learning is that Carina suffered so many injuries, 376 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: including a large, extensive abrasion on her right, but a 377 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: career end, a laceration to her vagina, bruising around her neck, 378 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: burst blood vessels across her face, teeth knocked out. How 379 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: how do you get a laceration to your vagina, Doctor Gallagher? 380 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: Typically in an assault case that is a result of 381 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: a sexual attack, you would not only have to find 382 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: a laceration to the vagina, but you would also have 383 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: to find contusions or black and blue marks, so to speak, 384 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: around the pubic area and on the inner thighs, and 385 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: these would support a diagnosis of sexual assaults. I found 386 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: something very curious. Her cause of death is strangulation. But 387 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: the medical examiner, doctor Priole, says that Karina's hair was wet. 388 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: Her hair was wet, She was not drowned. Her hair 389 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: was wet. However, her neck was marked with linear scratches. 390 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: Could this be a sign that she scratched herself with 391 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: her own nails while trying to pry her attacker's hands 392 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: off her neck. That is an absolutely vital piece of 393 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: information in this case. One of the most difficult things 394 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: a medical examiner can do is try to distinguish a 395 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: strangulation from a suicide. These linear marks on her neck 396 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: are most likely from her own fingernails, and if samples 397 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: of DNA were taken from under her own fingernails, you 398 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: might find that it is her skin that is under 399 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: the fingernails as well as maybe another the skin of 400 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: maybe her attacker. Well, I would think so, doctor Gallagher, 401 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: because if she is scratching herself trying to pull his 402 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: hands off of her, then I would imagine his DNA 403 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: his skin is under her nails as well. You know, 404 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: she's a tiny, tiny woman. She's only four eleven. She 405 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: only weighs around one hundred and ten pounds. When she 406 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: was found, her sports bra was pulled down to reveal 407 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: her breasts. Her underwear and shorts were rolled around her 408 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: left thigh and pulled off her right leg. And I 409 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: believe her attackers sex attack on her, resulting in her 410 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: right tennis shee being found elsewhere because her underwear and 411 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: shorts have been rolled down the left thigh and completely 412 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: pulled off the right leg. Would you agree or disagree? 413 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: I would I would agree. You know, even though it's 414 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: a sexual attack, typically they are signs of somebody dominating 415 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: over somebody else and then taking their clothes and tossing it, 416 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: perhaps in a fit of anger or perhaps in a 417 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: show of domination, is quite common on scenes like these. 418 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: The medical examiner, doctor Priole, also described Karina's vagina and 419 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: her anus. Her we're end both bruised inside and out, 420 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: as the medical examer says, consistent with an object being 421 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: inserted into her vagina and her anus? How do you 422 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: determine that, doctor Gallagher? And let me warn everyone listening 423 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: right now, this is very very difficult conversation and testimony. 424 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: Go ahead, Gallagher. It is so typically what you would 425 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: think was the object the assailants penis or was it 426 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: an inanimate object that he had with him were found 427 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: near the site. An inspection of the inner portion of 428 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: the body, the insides of the body, If it reveals 429 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: that the object had gone into the vagina, through the 430 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: uterus and up into the abdominal cavity, that would be 431 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: most likely an object that was inanimate, as though not 432 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: his penis, for instance, not a penis, and the same 433 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: would go for the anal area. If the portion of 434 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: the colon over there is torn is perforated, that is 435 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: most likely an inanimate object rather than being that of 436 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: the assailants penis. The brutality with which she is attacked, 437 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: horribly beaten. It's it's overwhelming. As a matter of fact, 438 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: at trial, jurors actually had to turn away from these photos. 439 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, with all of these injuries to 440 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: create a vitranto's body, how in the world could a 441 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: medical examiner isolate the cause of death as to as 442 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: being strangulation, manual strangulation, not asphyxiation such as smothering, not 443 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: ligature strangulation such as with a rope or a pair 444 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: of stockings, but manual strangulation amidst all of these injuries. Well, 445 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: number one, I really have to show appreciation for the 446 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: New York City Office of the Medical Examiner. They do 447 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: wonderful work, and we try to model the high standards 448 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: that they set in our offices in Florida. Right, But 449 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: then we have to remember that the cause of death 450 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: and the manner of death is an opinion, is an 451 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: opinion of the medical examiner based on all the facts 452 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: that they were able to gather during the case. And 453 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: so in the medical examiner's opinion, the most likely cause 454 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: of death based on the degree of injury was in 455 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: the neck area, and in her opinion, that is the 456 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: immediate cause of death. According to police insiders, they believe 457 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: that Carina was punched multiple times with a fist in 458 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: the face. What would be consistent with that theory that 459 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: you have observed in autopsy, There's a couple of things 460 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: taken the entire body into totality. There had to be 461 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: at one point where she was taken off of her feet, 462 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: and she does have an injury to her face, and 463 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: she has those linear abrasions on her buttocks, So it's 464 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: totally possible she may have been attacked initially by a 465 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: punch to the face that threw her on the ground 466 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: and gave her a bit of road rash on her 467 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: buttock cheek. Other things that would I would be able 468 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: to find would be broken bones in her face. We 469 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: would do a procedure called a face dissection and where 470 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: we would use our instruments to remove much of the 471 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: skin and soft tissue around the face and look for 472 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: broken bones, especially the cheek bones, the nose bone, i'side, 473 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: the nasal bone, and then bones of the jaw to 474 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: see if they were injured during the punching attack. With 475 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: the punching attack to this four foot eleven, one hundred 476 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: and ten pound woman attack to the face. Would the 477 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: injuries to Karina's face be consistent with her perpetrator straddling 478 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: her a knee on each side, on top of her, 479 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: and repeatedly punching her with fists to her face. Is 480 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: she lie there defenseless? You can't rule that out, Nancy, 481 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: And you know many many scenarios are possible, and without 482 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: a direct witness, it's impossible to determine what exactly happened. 483 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: But certainly that is within the realm of possibility. As 484 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: I am talking to a renowned medical examiner for the 485 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: State of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher. This is why people cry, 486 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: they get physically sick during murder trials when they are 487 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: confronted with this type of evidence. I remember so many 488 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: times when I would leave the medical examiner's office, which 489 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: I would visit for every single homicide case I tried. 490 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: I would just sit in the parking lot trying to 491 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: compose myself after what I have been told. Because you 492 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: hear Gallagher and I talking about this so clinically, but 493 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: we are talking about a beautiful young girl, just the 494 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: light of her parents' life, the apple of their eyes, 495 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: and we were talking about her face being beaten to 496 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 1: mush and distortion of her vagina and her anus. It's 497 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: about anger and rage and that's exactly what he un 498 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: leased on Karina the Tronto listen. At some point before 499 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: she went into the waters, he had stopped moving. Is 500 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: that right? She's not moving before her face went into 501 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: the water? Correct? All right? Did? Um? I'm sorry? Kind 502 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: of did it? Kind of? Did? All right? What could 503 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: you tell us he was breathing or not? What do 504 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: you say be the last question? Could you tell us 505 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: she was breathing on the other one? Oh before that? 506 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: I said no, At some point before she went out, 507 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: she stopped moving and you said kind of right, this 508 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: is that after the after the water? Well, that's when 509 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: when you when she went when you put her in 510 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: the water, was she still moving? Theme? Develop? What's she moving? Theme? 511 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: After that? She wouldn't move? Okay, did you fall in 512 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: the water when you first threw it to the ground 513 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: or when you're on the ground with her hiding her, 514 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: did she like kind of moved towards the water. It 515 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: was more like the strong leash and then she moved 516 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 1: into the water. So say after you had your hands 517 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: on her neck that she went the water? Right? Um? 518 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: And what did you do then after that that she 519 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: was the sling there and then I'll go to my 520 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: ankles and then picked up back far back and putting 521 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: the bushes. Okay, look, can you just describe to me, 522 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: like how you moved to a little what part of 523 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: the body were you holding when when you moved her? 524 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: Thank you on the hats. Do you hear that feel 525 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: of a toronto? She went into the water, And remember 526 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: at the very beginning feel when you told us something 527 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: led you to that precise spot. You saw one piece 528 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: of grass broken or bent over, and something inside a 529 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: voice inside to go that way. You found her and 530 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: her hair was wet, Remember you told me that, And 531 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: now we know how how her hair got wet. But 532 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: did you hear him say she went in the water. 533 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: She didn't walk over to the water and stick her 534 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: head in the water and a mud puddle he put 535 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: her in there? Uly exactly. Hassock was wet also, and 536 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: it was bewildering too. The police like, why was a 537 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: hair wet? Why was hassock wet? And it was a 538 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: puddle like thirty foot away, a small little puddle, and 539 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: they surmised that she must have been dragged through the puddle, 540 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, and we know she didn't drown because there 541 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: was no water in her lungs, so she did not 542 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: walk and fall into the puddle. Now she did not 543 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: quote went into the puddle exactly. You know, we were 544 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: talking earlier about Tony to Stefano from Newsday was talking 545 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: about how he would not admit in front of his mother. 546 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: You know, Karen Smith, Frensy expert, you know who. This 547 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: reminds me of Scott Peterson because he stuck to his 548 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: story no matter what. And I was there in the 549 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: courtroom and he would turn around and look at his 550 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: mother all the time, all the time. Jackie was her name, 551 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: and he could not admit. I got mad and I 552 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: strangled her because he would have probably got a voluntary 553 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: on that and get twenty years to serve out in 554 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: ten but he wouldn't do it. Now he's on death row. 555 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: Karen Smith, how many times have you seen somebody not 556 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: be able to admit in front of their mother or 557 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: their family? They did it any times. This is not unusual. 558 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: You know, there's certain suspects out there that light still 559 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 1: said have mommy issues. I don't know what the stems from. 560 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what the psychological analysis is behind it. 561 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: But I've seen it. You've seen it. It's not unusual 562 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: emancy at all. Take a listen to what Chanel Lewis 563 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: tells police. So you would dragging her by the hands 564 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: on the arms, right, and when you dragged her, was 565 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 1: was he facing down on to the ground or facing 566 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: up to this guy? Oh? Facing off? Okay? And when 567 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: it just rank her too? Somewhere of the pathway, off 568 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: the pathway, what's on the side of the pathway, bushes, trees, grass, 569 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: some kind of trees, I mean, some weird love foam. 570 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: It's called weed and leaves. Wait and lead. Look about 571 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:21,879 Speaker 1: how high would you say it was? Was it high 572 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: or like about eight feet somebody that it's like higher 573 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: than your head when you're standing. Is that consistent the 574 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: over tronto with where you found her pretty much exactly? Yeah, yeah, 575 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: off the path about thirty feet And like I said before, 576 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: it just started out as one weed bent over and 577 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: I went in. The trail got more and more matted, 578 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: until where I found her there was a five or 579 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: six foot round area that the weeds were completely matted 580 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: and flattened down. So it is my belief that that 581 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: is where the biggest total qualification took place, and that 582 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: is where he killed her. Now, the question is why 583 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: now you said that you did this because you had 584 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: some anger? Is that right? All right? Um? Can you 585 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: tell me about that anger? Because you know, I used 586 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: to live in a different address and I currently live 587 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: right now right And then there was sometimes d this 588 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: man that comes around there. He played that a lot 589 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: of music and carry a lot of friends around there, 590 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: and didn't like it because I feel unsafe, comfortable, and 591 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: I like my beast private and peaceful. And you just okay, 592 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: what place was this that you used to live in 593 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: a different place, a place where it was the same 594 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: neighborhood but a different street, was at Logan Street and 595 00:41:58,280 --> 00:41:59,959 Speaker 1: there was someone there who ain't who got you? Ain't? 596 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: Do you remember who that was? Do you remember who 597 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: that was? Well? What you want to see? Okay, I 598 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: don't get it? What did you hear that? Tony de 599 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: Stephano Newsday reporter. He was asked about why he was angry, 600 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: In other words, why did he pick out Karina pa 601 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: Toronto of all people assault her and murder her? And 602 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,320 Speaker 1: he says he's angry about a guy in his neighborhood 603 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,800 Speaker 1: playing loud music. That was one of the stranger parts 604 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: of this case. There seemed to have been something going 605 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: on in either his home or in Ja the immediate 606 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: neighborhood that got him angry and made him feel insecure. Well, 607 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm angry right now. I'm angry because 608 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: John David and Lucy got a comment on their report 609 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: card that they talked during band Now, John David, maybe, yes, 610 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: Lucy never, I know that did not happen. Yeah, I'm 611 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: mad about it, but I'm not going to go attack 612 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: some soccer mom in the car pool and strangler and 613 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: Draguto the bushes. We hope, we hope that. So this 614 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: is totally bogus. Why is he saying this? I think, 615 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: you know, this may have been a triggering event, but 616 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: I think what that may have really done is just 617 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: sent him away from the neighborhood into the park where 618 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: other things were taking over. When he met came in 619 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: contact with Karina, which whether's anger or sexual frustration towards women, 620 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: anger towards women, sexual frustration. Maybe there was a woman 621 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: at the root of his anger and this was his 622 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: way of striking out. In any case, he did, you 623 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: know in the evidence showed that he did it. Well, 624 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: I think his total bait s. I believe Phil Vatronto, 625 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: this is all BS trigger schmaker Nancy. I don't believe 626 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: that incident ever happened. I do not believe that is 627 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: true because we have his cell phone. We tracked his 628 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 1: cell phone, and he left his home around one one 629 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: pm that afternoon, and he walked deeper into Brooklyn. He 630 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: walked by the water, he walked down towards Howard Beach. 631 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: He didn't get into Howard Beach till about five o'clock. 632 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: So if he was enraged four hours of walking, that 633 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: rage probably is going to dissipate. So I don't believe 634 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,280 Speaker 1: his excuse. Well again, Phil, I'm just a trial lawyer, okay, 635 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: But I know this. He did not attack this beautiful girl, 636 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: Karina Vatronto on the inside and the outside because some 637 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: guy is playing loud music. He attacked her because he 638 00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: hates women and she was an outlet for his rage. 639 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: And right now he's looking for the boogeyman. Wow, it's 640 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: not really my fault. It's this guy's fault because he 641 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: played loud music. That's what he's doing. He's transferring blame. 642 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: Probably himself to somebody else. Listen, had you ever gone 643 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: to that park like before this date? Would you go 644 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: there on occasion? Or yeah? Sometimes when I was when 645 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,879 Speaker 1: I get angry and stuff out there? How many times 646 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: would you say you've been there before, to the park, 647 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:31,280 Speaker 1: like several times? More than three or four times? Yeah? Okay? 648 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: Would you always go into the park by that trail? Yeah? 649 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: All right? And would you always walk or there would 650 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: other ways to get there? I always walk? Would you 651 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: walk the same route? Sometimes? Doesn't little, sometimes you're a 652 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: different route? Okay? Did um, did you ever go there 653 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: with someone else, with friends or anything? No? No, okay? 654 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: Did you ever one on while you were in that area? 655 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: Did you ever once get spoken to by police in 656 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: the area, like for this avenue stopped points by the police. 657 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,479 Speaker 1: How long before this was that? A couple of months? Agoo? 658 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,879 Speaker 1: Couple of months before the August second? Let me ask 659 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: you one question to Donnie to Stephana Newsday reporter. The 660 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: DNA found on Karinavatronto's body, did it match to Channel Lewis. Yes, 661 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: the DNA the trial evidence showed from the cell phone 662 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: and from Corina's neck area matched. It was a very 663 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,800 Speaker 1: robust sample and it did match. There was also a 664 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: DNA found under her fingernails, which through a different probability 665 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: analysis also was found to have been a match. So 666 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: they had matches three ways in this case, two very 667 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: very robust samples, and this fingernails stuff, which was also 668 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: very very convincing. Phil Vatronto Tony de Stefano gave me 669 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: the professional newsday reporter answer, Phil Va Tronto Qarna's dad 670 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,359 Speaker 1: did the DNA taken from Corrina's body and her cell 671 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,719 Speaker 1: phone match Channel Lewis. It was an exact match, and 672 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,879 Speaker 1: the metal Google examiner they made statistics and it would 673 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:41,400 Speaker 1: take nine the population of nine Earth planets for it 674 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: not to be him. It was one in seven trillion 675 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: that it wasn't that it could be anybody else, one 676 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: in seven trillion likelihood that it could possibly be anybody else. 677 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: So you've got a confession detail, confession plus overwhelming DNA 678 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: right stunting. In the murder trial of a jagger from Queens, 679 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: New York, a judge declaring a mistrial by hung jury 680 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: following just thirteen hours. The jury deadlocked in the case. 681 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: With DNA evidence and the confession tape, the jurors, seven 682 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,880 Speaker 1: women and five men, sending a note to the judge 683 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: telling him they could not agree on whether twenty two 684 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: year old suspect Channel Lewis was guilty of killing thirty 685 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: year old Katrina Vatranto two years ago. We are split, 686 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: they wrote. It doesn't seem that we can make progress. 687 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: We feel that we have exhausted all of our options. 688 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,320 Speaker 1: Late Tuesday night, the jury asking to review evidence photos 689 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,720 Speaker 1: of Vitronto's injuries, and rewatching Lewis's confession tape. On that tape, 690 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: Lewis seemed telling police that he was upset with a 691 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 1: neighbor and that when he came across Vitronto in a 692 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: secluded section of the park, he quote just lost it, 693 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: saying he beat and strangled her but did not mollust her. 694 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: Lewis's defense attorney's arguing the crime scene was corrupted and 695 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: that Lewis's confession was wrongly up and should not have 696 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: been admissible on the trial. His attorney say Lewis only 697 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 1: confessed because he wanted to go home after waiting hours 698 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:13,040 Speaker 1: in an interrogation room. What a mistrial with DNA, stating 699 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: it's a one in seven trillion likelihood, the possibility that 700 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,399 Speaker 1: it's not him. It matches him from her neck, from 701 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: her body, from her cell phone, he confesses in detail, 702 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: he's there in the neighborhood. Everything fits, and there's a 703 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 1: mistrial field the Toronto. You were in the courtroom when 704 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: the mistrial was announced. What went through your mind and body? 705 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,800 Speaker 1: I was already concerned that something was going wrong. You know, 706 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: I've seen studying and surprising verdicts before, like the O. J. 707 00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 1: Simpson not guilty okay, and I handful of others of 708 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: that ilk, of that magnitude, Robert Blake, this is one 709 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: of those Channel Lewis mistrial. Your heart had to be 710 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:18,040 Speaker 1: absolutely broken fill the Toronto, to wait two years for 711 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: this moment and then to have the rug pulled out 712 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: from under you and then have to go through this again. 713 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: It was tortuous. Were we felt like the day she died, 714 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: like it was all happening all over again. That's how 715 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: badly we felt. Yeah, we were stunned. I mean the 716 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: world was stunned. I could not believe it. But I 717 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: got to tell you something, Phil During the jury deliberations, 718 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: when it went on past X number of hours, I 719 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 1: started getting really worried. And I still have the texts 720 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,799 Speaker 1: that you and I were sending back and forth after 721 00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: the court day, and as the hours went on, I 722 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,359 Speaker 1: really started getting worried. Now a lot of prosecutors, hey, 723 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,239 Speaker 1: I've gotten to miss trial before I got one. And 724 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,400 Speaker 1: it's because in the opening statement I called the defendant 725 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 1: a pimp, which he was, but he was not charged 726 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,439 Speaker 1: with being a pimp. He was charged with child sex 727 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 1: trafficking and child rape. Well, I got a mistrial, and 728 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people, including the prosecutors in this case, 729 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,360 Speaker 1: could have just taken a cheap play. Went well, you know, 730 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: got screwed up. Let's take a cheap plea and cut 731 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: our losses. Oh no, oh no. I had that guy 732 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,439 Speaker 1: re indicted for the same felonies plus a misdemeanor charge 733 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 1: of pimping. And I did it all over again and 734 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,879 Speaker 1: called him a pimp an opening statement with impunity. Now 735 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 1: in this case, the prosecutor said, okay, let's just let 736 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: him play ten years on voluntary and get this thing done. 737 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:54,800 Speaker 1: Oh no, oh, absolutely not. They went back to trial. 738 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 1: Did you agree with that decision to take it back 739 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,480 Speaker 1: to trial to a second trial field the Toronto I 740 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: pleaded to have it done. Yes, I implored the prosecution. 741 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: I was. I wanted that. I was not going to 742 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 1: see him get off easy, making that very difficult decision 743 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: to take it back to trial and not take a 744 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,400 Speaker 1: cheap plea, you know the old saying one in the 745 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: hands worth two in the bush. Mmmmm. They went back 746 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: to the bush. They went back to the battleground. The 747 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,280 Speaker 1: thunderous reaction from the VA Toronto side of the courtroom 748 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,920 Speaker 1: was unmistakable when the jurors delivered a guilty verdict on 749 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: each of the four counts against Channel Lewis. The twenty 750 00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,919 Speaker 1: two year old was retried after the first court case 751 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,920 Speaker 1: ended in a hung jury. Lewis is now a convicted murderer, 752 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: found guilty of killing and sexually assaulting Karnava Toronto as 753 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,799 Speaker 1: she went out for a jog near her Howard Beach 754 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,160 Speaker 1: home in twenty sixteen. You're hearing CBS two reporter Valerie 755 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: Castro reporting that verdict. Listen to this. Today is a 756 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:24,440 Speaker 1: day where grieving can begin. Clutching a photo of her 757 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: beautiful daughter, Carina, Kathy and Phil Vitranto speaking from the 758 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,920 Speaker 1: steps of their Howard Beach home. I thank the jors 759 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,879 Speaker 1: from the bottom of our souls and hearts. I thank them. 760 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,880 Speaker 1: Less than twenty four hours ago, the jury returned a 761 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: guilty verdict against twenty two year old Toel Lewis. I 762 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,840 Speaker 1: sat for two and a half years listening to the 763 00:53:54,280 --> 00:54:05,000 Speaker 1: most disgusting details of my daughter almost horrendous death and moments, 764 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 1: last moments of her life at the hands of a 765 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,640 Speaker 1: savage demon. And it has nothing to do about what 766 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: color he is or who he is. Vatranto, referring to 767 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 1: a last minute anonymous letter alleging racial profiling not admitted 768 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,600 Speaker 1: at the trial. As for their daughters so cruelly taken 769 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: from them almost three years ago, nobody will ever forget 770 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,200 Speaker 1: our daughter Karina, I mean Cyby. She's magical, She's special, 771 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,879 Speaker 1: She's an angel. You know your voice speaking about her 772 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:44,800 Speaker 1: being special and magical and an angel. I think about 773 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: that so often, vill Vatrano. Chanel Lewis guilty of murdering 774 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: jogger Karina Vatranto after a dramatic retrial cheers in the courtroom. 775 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,760 Speaker 1: Justice being served over two years after her brutalized body 776 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: was found on that lonely jogging trail. Justice, wait a minute, 777 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:20,799 Speaker 1: even now, Defense teams are trying to get that verdict reversed. 778 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:27,880 Speaker 1: But in this moment, in this moment with Chanelle Lewis 779 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:35,399 Speaker 1: behind bars to fill the Toronto, Phil, tell me when 780 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,719 Speaker 1: you wake up in the morning, as you go through 781 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,720 Speaker 1: your day, as you put your head on the pillow 782 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: at night, I believe Karina communicates with you. Definitely tell 783 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: me about that. I mean in her own way and 784 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:53,400 Speaker 1: the ability that angels can, and she is an angel, 785 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:55,759 Speaker 1: and that has proven just by the fact that we're 786 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: she didn't get talking about her, and the fact that 787 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: it went world why, I mean instantly, it went viral instantly. 788 00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: You know. I have friends now that they've made that 789 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:14,400 Speaker 1: from come from other countries, and everybody in the world 790 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,920 Speaker 1: knows about Karina Vatrano. Now that's why I say she's special, 791 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: because that doesn't happen. That's not normal. You know, a 792 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,800 Speaker 1: little girls get killed every day. But when Karina was murdered, 793 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,960 Speaker 1: the whole world was mourning for her. And yeah, she 794 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 1: does communicate with me in her own way, and I 795 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,880 Speaker 1: think about her all the time every day, but I 796 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 1: never think about him ever. Phil, I want to tell 797 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,399 Speaker 1: you something. Every morning, as you know, I get out 798 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,759 Speaker 1: between four to forty and five get everything ready for 799 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,800 Speaker 1: the twins, and you know, I'll start working early so 800 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,920 Speaker 1: I can try to be done by the time they 801 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,319 Speaker 1: get out of school. But since you and I've been 802 00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,279 Speaker 1: talking so in depth about Karina, when I go out 803 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: in the morning, I load up my beat up minivan 804 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,400 Speaker 1: with all their stuff they have to take, whether them 805 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,239 Speaker 1: their books, their backpacks, their snacks, their soccer and their 806 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,600 Speaker 1: volleyball stuff. All that is still dark, and I've found 807 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,480 Speaker 1: a new star I've never seen before. It's kind of 808 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: gold and it twinkles. And for some reason, every time 809 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: I see that, say five o'clock in the morning, I 810 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 1: think about Corina Vatronto. She's been weighing so heavy on 811 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:32,960 Speaker 1: my mind. I just want to thank you for everything 812 00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,480 Speaker 1: you've done, not only for us here at Quake, but 813 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,120 Speaker 1: for every life that you've touched, every life that Corina 814 00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:45,480 Speaker 1: is touching through you. Your fight for familial DNA to 815 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,040 Speaker 1: be allowed, and in the end it wasn't even used 816 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,080 Speaker 1: in this case, but you have opened up a door 817 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,880 Speaker 1: for so many people, so many crime victims. So I 818 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,840 Speaker 1: want to give our closing thought to you. Fill Vatronto. 819 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:05,920 Speaker 1: I'm just an instrument everything I've done, I've done for Koreana. 820 00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 1: I am an instrument of her to be used for good, 821 00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,360 Speaker 1: and I try to do that. You know, the familiar DNA, 822 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,720 Speaker 1: the scholarship funding. There's a lot of things that we 823 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:26,440 Speaker 1: do in her name, and that's the only thing that 824 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,880 Speaker 1: gives me any kind of I'm not gonna say pleasure, 825 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,720 Speaker 1: because I have no pleasure, but it gives me an 826 00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:39,520 Speaker 1: ambition to keep going and to do more good. I 827 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,520 Speaker 1: don't know where it's going to stop. I probably never 828 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,240 Speaker 1: going to stop, but you know, I'd like to get 829 00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,240 Speaker 1: the familiar DNA testing in other states. There's only eleven 830 00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,160 Speaker 1: states that do it. And by the way, the only 831 00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,720 Speaker 1: reason that came about was because of Tony. Tony get 832 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,120 Speaker 1: the final He wrote the article that I picked up 833 00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,680 Speaker 1: on and I just ran with it. Techs Smith, Doctor 834 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:08,560 Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig, Tony DeStefano, Field Vatranto, and Carina Vatranto, who 835 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,680 Speaker 1: means so much to so many of us. Nancy Grace 836 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,720 Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,