Speaker 1: What happens when we try to push that beach ball
Speaker 1: of anxiety underwater is that it's going to pop up later,
Speaker 1: and probably with more force than before.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We
Speaker 2: hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor Ellen Hendrickson,
Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist who helps millions calm their anxiety and
Speaker 2: be their authentic selves through her award winning podcast, The
Speaker 2: Savvy Psychologist, and in the clinic at Boston University's Center
Speaker 2: for anxiety and related disorders. Her debut book is How
Speaker 2: to Be Yourself, Quiet, Your Inner Critic, and Rise Above
Speaker 2: Social Anxiety.
Speaker 3: Hi Ellen, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me Eric.
Speaker 4: I'm really excited to talk with you. Your book is
Speaker 4: called How to Be Yourself, Quiet, Your Inner Critic and
Speaker 4: Rise Above Social Anxiety. And I know this is something
Speaker 4: that a lot of our listeners deal with and are
Speaker 4: going to be really happy to hear about. So we'll
Speaker 4: get into the book in a second, but let's start
Speaker 4: like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather
Speaker 4: who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life,
Speaker 4: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 4: a battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 4: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 4: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 4: and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about
Speaker 4: it for a second, and she looks up at her grandfather.
Speaker 4: She says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says,
Speaker 4: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 4: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 4: your life and in the work.
Speaker 1: That you do, absolutely. So since we are here to
Speaker 1: talk about social anxiety and how to rise above it
Speaker 1: overcome it, we might assume that social anxiety is the
Speaker 1: bad wolf, and it's you know, it's certainly not like
Speaker 1: greed or hatred. It's definitely not in that camp. But
Speaker 1: you know, it holds a lot of people back. It
Speaker 1: keeps a lot of people from living if they want
Speaker 1: to live. But I will argue that actually it's not
Speaker 1: all bad for two reasons. So one is that social
Speaker 1: anxiety often comes bundled with some really wonderful strengths. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to start out on a positive note here
Speaker 1: for all our listeners with social anxiety, because because folks
Speaker 1: with social anxiety often have things like high standards, deep empathy,
Speaker 1: they are pro social, which is simply means helpful and altruistic.
Speaker 1: They're often good listeners, often very conscientious, you know, work
Speaker 1: hard to get along with people, which is ever more
Speaker 1: important in this increasingly diverse world. And the best part
Speaker 1: is that all those wonderful things don't go away even
Speaker 1: as we work on our social anxiety and it lessens.
Speaker 1: So that's one thing. But secondly, a little bit of
Speaker 1: social anxiety actually serves a really useful function, Like a
Speaker 1: little bit of insecure is part of the human condition,
Speaker 1: and I would argue is necessary because a little bit
Speaker 1: of self doubt, a little bit of social anxiety helps
Speaker 1: us monitor ourselves and monitor our behavior and is really
Speaker 1: I think necessary to spark introspection which makes us want
Speaker 1: to grow and stretch and change. And I always like
Speaker 1: to say we doubt ourselves in order to check ourselves.
Speaker 1: And there's some really fascinating research out there that the
Speaker 1: opposite of social anxiety is not confidence as we think
Speaker 1: it might be, but it's actually psychopathy. It's been a
Speaker 1: psychopath which is characterized, you know, by a disregard for others,
Speaker 1: being really ruthless, reckless, irresponsible, having a real lack of empathy.
Speaker 1: So I would say to our listeners with social anxiety,
Speaker 1: you know, so you know, it's certainly fine to put
Speaker 1: the social anxiety wolf on a diet, and we can
Speaker 1: talk about how to do that, but don't starve it
Speaker 1: completely because a little bit of it is necess saria
Speaker 1: and keeps you human wonderful.
Speaker 4: That's a great perspective to start things off with. So
Speaker 4: let's talk for a minute about what is happening in
Speaker 4: the brains of people who have social anxiety versus the
Speaker 4: people that aren't. There's some really clear things that we're
Speaker 4: able to see and notice about people who have social anxiety.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, we're gonna jump right into the neuroscience. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, So it's it's interesting. So the architecture of
Speaker 1: the brains of people with social anxiety versus people without
Speaker 1: social anxieties all the same, you know, all the same
Speaker 1: parts are are there. But my analogy is that when
Speaker 1: there's a perceived social threat, you know whether or not
Speaker 1: that's actually a social threat. When there's a threat, the
Speaker 1: brains of folks without social anxiety will send a firetruck
Speaker 1: to the scene right away. And with the folks with
Speaker 1: social anxiety, our brain sends a guy on a bicycle
Speaker 1: with a bucket of water. It's a slower response, and
Speaker 1: it's it's just it's not it's not as robust a response.
Speaker 1: And so there is all this room left over to
Speaker 1: jump to the worst case scenario or to uh, to
Speaker 1: kind of freak out because our friend has not texted
Speaker 1: us back, and we assume it's because they hate us.
Speaker 1: And so for somebody without social anxiety, their brain will
Speaker 1: kick in and say, well, you know, she's probably just busy,
Speaker 1: maybe she's in the bathroom, maybe her phone died. Whereas
Speaker 1: with the folks with social anxiety, that prefrontal cortex response,
Speaker 1: that response of the you know, the part of our
Speaker 1: brain that is reasonable and logical, doesn't kick in right away.
Speaker 1: There's a like about a three second leg and in
Speaker 1: those three seconds a lot of freaking out can happen.
Speaker 1: And so the good news is that there are things
Speaker 1: that can change this speed and intensity of response, and
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy is one of those. We can talk
Speaker 1: about that. But my point is that as you practice,
Speaker 1: and as you grow and stretch and try to change
Speaker 1: and really face your fear is a little at a time,
Speaker 1: you can change your brain and make it look much
Speaker 1: more like the folks without social anxiety.
Speaker 4: And would it be safe to say that this brain
Speaker 4: pattern is common across all types of anxiety.
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I don't know if that is
Speaker 1: the case. So basically what happens in anxiety is, yes,
Speaker 1: the amigdala sounds the alarm. Now, so the amigola is
Speaker 1: part of the fear system. It's not the fear center
Speaker 1: per se, but it's part of the fear system. It's
Speaker 1: also a member of many other systems. It's a kind
Speaker 1: of a jack of all trades, but it is particularly
Speaker 1: prominent in anxiety. And then the prefrontal cortex will we'll
Speaker 1: talk it down and we'll tuck it off the ledge. So,
Speaker 1: like I said, in social anxiety, that response takes longer
Speaker 1: and the response is less robust. I honestly don't know
Speaker 1: if that is the case in other forms of anxiety,
Speaker 1: like say OCD or generalized anxiety or phobias. I don't
Speaker 1: know if science knows that. Personally, I am not sure.
Speaker 4: And so one of the things that you say is
Speaker 4: the biggest challenge with social anxiety, and frankly this is
Speaker 4: kind of with a lot of types of anxiety is avoidance.
Speaker 4: So talk to me about what avoidance is and why
Speaker 4: is it so harmful.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. Avoidance absolutely
Speaker 1: drives social anxiety. This is the big If we are
Speaker 1: feeding a wolf, avoidance is its favorite food. And so
Speaker 1: there are two types of avoidance in social anxiety. One
Speaker 1: is overt avoidance, and that's when we don't show up
Speaker 1: to the party or we don't raise our hand in class,
Speaker 1: it's refusing to do the thing. Now, there's also covert avoidance,
Speaker 1: which is showing up to the party but perhaps only
Speaker 1: talking to the person we came with, or scrolling through
Speaker 1: our phone so we don't have to make eye contact
Speaker 1: with anyone, or spending most of our time, you know,
Speaker 1: petting the host's cat. We might raise our hand in class,
Speaker 1: but then second guess ourselves, or we might rehearse the
Speaker 1: answer that we're going to give before we actually say it,
Speaker 1: and then after we say it kind of check it
Speaker 1: mentally to make sure we didn't sound stupid. So there's
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot. There's a lot of tricks that
Speaker 1: our brains play to try to artificially tamp down the anxiety.
Speaker 1: But what happens when we avoid, when we try to
Speaker 1: push that beach ball of anxiety underwater, is that it's
Speaker 1: going to pop up later, and probably with more force
Speaker 1: than before.
Speaker 4: You say that avoidance means well, but by protecting us
Speaker 4: from a situation, it inadvertently sends the message that we
Speaker 4: just can't cope with it.
Speaker 1: Exactly. So, avoidance feeds anxiety, and it feeds the two
Speaker 1: lies of anxiety, which are one that the worst case
Speaker 1: scenario is a foregone conclusion that if I raise my
Speaker 1: hand and answer this question in class, that I will
Speaker 1: inevitably get it wrong and everyone will look at me,
Speaker 1: and maybe the professor will laugh or something something terribly
Speaker 1: humiliating will occur. And so by avoiding, we don't get
Speaker 1: the chance to learn through experience that that doesn't happen. Secondly,
Speaker 1: we don't get a chance to learn that we can
Speaker 1: cope with things that that we can handle either more
Speaker 1: than we think or we can handle what, you know,
Speaker 1: what naturally occurs when we answer that question in class
Speaker 1: or when we go to the party or whatever it
Speaker 1: is that we're avoiding that with, you know, with some
Speaker 1: time and practice, Like we might be uncomfortable at first,
Speaker 1: but as we try, you know, as we kind of
Speaker 1: inch our way into the pool, you know, we don't
Speaker 1: have to do a Candon ball into the deep end.
Speaker 1: But as we enter our way into the well, we
Speaker 1: can we can handle this, We can do this.
Speaker 4: We've given our Instagram account a new look, and we're
Speaker 4: sharing content there that we don't share anywhere else, encouraging
Speaker 4: positive posts with wisdom that support you in feeding your
Speaker 4: good wolf, as well as in behind the scenes video
Speaker 4: of the show and some of Genianiz's day to day life,
Speaker 4: which I'm kind of still amazed that anybody would be
Speaker 4: interested in. It's also a great place for you to
Speaker 4: give us feedback on the episodes that you like, or
Speaker 4: concepts that you've learned that you think are helpful, or
Speaker 4: any other feedback you'd like to give us. If you're
Speaker 4: on Instagram, follow us it at one underscore you underscore
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Speaker 4: You underscore feed to add some nourishing content to your
Speaker 4: daily scrolling. See you there. Let's talk about one of
Speaker 4: the major players in our social anxiety, which is the
Speaker 4: inner critic. Yes, tell me about what the inner critic is,
Speaker 4: and then let's go into how can we work with
Speaker 4: the inner critic in relation to social anxiety.
Speaker 1: We all have an inner critic, like this is just hardwired.
Speaker 1: Nobody except the psychopath, like I mentioned before, is without
Speaker 1: an inner critic. And so in social anxiety, this inner
Speaker 1: critic will tell us that we have a fatal flaw,
Speaker 1: that there is something that is wrong with us, and
Speaker 1: that if we don't work very hard to conceal it,
Speaker 1: it will be revealed and people will judge or reject
Speaker 1: us for it. And this inner critic usually chooses a
Speaker 1: trait from one of four buckets. So that first bucket
Speaker 1: is appearance, and so our inner critic might say you're
Speaker 1: too fat, or your ugly, or your hair is weird,
Speaker 1: or something to that extent. The second bucket that our
Speaker 1: inner critic likes to kind of dip into is the
Speaker 1: signs of anxiety themselves, So our inner critic might say, wow,
Speaker 1: you better, you better hide, or people will see that
Speaker 1: you're blushing and they'll think you're an anxious shreak. Or
Speaker 1: they'll see that you're sweating through your shirt, or that
Speaker 1: your voice is trembling as you speak, or that your
Speaker 1: hands are shaking. That the signs of anxiety themselves will
Speaker 1: give you a way and people will judge you. The
Speaker 1: third bucket are social skills, so the inner critic will say,
Speaker 1: you know you're boring, nobody wants to listen to this story,
Speaker 1: you have no sense of humor, you have no personality.
Speaker 1: It will be very critical of one's attempt to connect
Speaker 1: with others. And the last bucket is the biggest bucket,
Speaker 1: and it's where the inner critic criticizes one's kind of
Speaker 1: entire personality. So you're stupid, or you're incompetent, or nobody
Speaker 1: wants you hear it, you're you're a loser. And so
Speaker 1: in one of those four buckets, the inner critic will,
Speaker 1: you know, choose one of these and we'll we'll let
Speaker 1: you know it. And the bucket they dip into can change,
Speaker 1: you know, over time, over the lifespan from situation to situation,
Speaker 1: or maybe it'll whisper more than one thing at you.
Speaker 1: But but whatever it is, it feels like God's honest truth.
Speaker 1: It feels like self consciousness on steroids. And an analogy
Speaker 1: I like to use is for folks who don't have
Speaker 1: social anxiety, is that it's it's as if like we've
Speaker 1: all had days where we look in the mirror and
Speaker 1: there's just something off, like we you know, we're having
Speaker 1: a really bad hair day, or like suddenly we have
Speaker 1: a really big ZiT or something to that extent, and
Speaker 1: if we have to go out in public like that,
Speaker 1: we will feel self conscious and try to cover it.
Speaker 1: So maybe we'll you know, wear a hat that day,
Speaker 1: or we'll you know, try to cover that, is it
Speaker 1: with some you know, some concealer or something like that.
Speaker 1: But if you can't. If you have, I have to
Speaker 1: go out with your hair looking weird or this big ZiT,
Speaker 1: you feel very self conscious. You feel like everybody's paying
Speaker 1: attention to it, and that they'll judge you or notice
Speaker 1: it and evaluate you negatively. So it's that same feeling
Speaker 1: that's the seed of the feeling, but blown up to
Speaker 1: a whole other level. And rather than being about something external,
Speaker 1: it's usually about something internal, so something about personality or
Speaker 1: like who we are, how we conduct ourselves in the world.
Speaker 4: Right, And I think those four buckets are so informative,
Speaker 4: and they sort of by being able to sort of
Speaker 4: see what it is that we are feeling anxious about
Speaker 4: or that we're afraid about, leads me into a tool
Speaker 4: that you talk about that you call social anxiety mad libs. Yeah, sure,
Speaker 4: so walk me through what this is, because it's one
Speaker 4: of the first steps in a really powerful tool that
Speaker 4: you talk about and is a cornerstone of cognitive behavioral therapy, which.
Speaker 1: Is replace exactly anxiety mad libs is essentially this sentence,
Speaker 1: So it's you know when, and then fill in the
Speaker 1: blank here, just like in mad libs, fill in a
Speaker 1: social situation that makes you feel anxious. So when I
Speaker 1: raise my hand in class, it will become obvious that
Speaker 1: I am blank, I am stupid, I am stuttering, I
Speaker 1: am turning red, whatever whatever it is. When I go
Speaker 1: out with my coworkers, it will become obvious that they
Speaker 1: don't really want me here. If I ask someone out
Speaker 1: on a date, it will become obvious that I have
Speaker 1: no personality, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So you can,
Speaker 1: you can fill in, have your inner critic fill in
Speaker 1: the blank. Think about the things that you avoid and
Speaker 1: what what is your feared reveal? What are you afraid
Speaker 1: is going to be shown to the world, And that's
Speaker 1: that's what your critic is whispering to you. For me,
Speaker 1: So I have a history of social anxiety myself, and
Speaker 1: you know, many decades and a PhD in clinical psychology later,
Speaker 1: I am doing much better. I am to the point
Speaker 1: where it does not own me. And I still get
Speaker 1: nervous about particular things, like, for instance, being like if
Speaker 1: I'm around somebody in authority, I can get a little
Speaker 1: tongue tied and formal. I don't love being on camera.
Speaker 1: I can do it, but I don't not a huge fan.
Speaker 1: I can speak in public, I have psych myself up beforehand,
Speaker 1: but I can do it anyway. And so my inner
Speaker 1: critic has kind of shifted throughout my life. When I
Speaker 1: was in college, it was if or when when I
Speaker 1: show up at a social event, it will become obviously
Speaker 1: I am a big loser. When I was starting my career,
Speaker 1: it was when I, you know, hand in whatever work
Speaker 1: I am doing, it will become obvious that I'm incompetent.
Speaker 1: When I was writing how to Be Yourself and I
Speaker 1: had to cold email intellectual luminaries who have studied social
Speaker 1: anxiety for their whole lives, it was when I email
Speaker 1: these people, it will become obvious that I am annoying.
Speaker 1: And I know enough now that I can put some
Speaker 1: space between my inner critics whisperings and say like, okay,
Speaker 1: inner critic, I know what you're trying to do. You're
Speaker 1: trying to help me, You're trying to keep me safe.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, but really you're holding me back. And
Speaker 1: so again I thank you, and I'm going to go
Speaker 1: do this now because I know from experience, from not
Speaker 1: avoiding you know over many many years that the thing
Speaker 1: that you're trying to tell me is actually not true.
Speaker 1: So there's a big difference between I'm annoying, which sounds
Speaker 1: like a truth, and I'm having the thought that I'm annoying,
Speaker 1: which is just a thought and can be challenged. And
Speaker 1: so that brings us to the tool you mentioned, which
Speaker 1: is replace.
Speaker 4: Yes, and it's such a powerful tool. I really love
Speaker 4: the way that you go into it. And before we
Speaker 4: go too far into it, I want to stress what
Speaker 4: replace isn't. And you're saying that replacing is not about
Speaker 4: thinking positive or positive thinking or positive affirmations. You say,
Speaker 4: those don't get you very far in the court room
Speaker 4: of your brain.
Speaker 1: Right exactly. So replace is not simply taking. So we'll
Speaker 1: take my last example of I'm annoying, and it's not
Speaker 1: simply saying like no, I'm awesome, Like it's it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not. It's not just like having a cheerleader, you know,
Speaker 1: stand on the opposite shoulder, you know, of your inner
Speaker 1: critic and say like no, like go girl, you can
Speaker 1: do it. It's that's it's not. It's not that simple.
Speaker 1: We're not trying to look through rose colored glasses when
Speaker 1: we replace. We're trying to look through clear colored glasses.
Speaker 1: We're trying to look at this more accurately exactly. And
Speaker 1: so so what we can do is is ask some
Speaker 1: questions of the inner critic. And so one the first
Speaker 1: thing that it's very important to do is to specify.
Speaker 1: And so anxiety is all anxiety, particularly social anxiety is vague.
Speaker 1: So anxiety will tell us something bad we'll happen, or
Speaker 1: everybody will hate me, And those are so vague, what
Speaker 1: what particular bad thing will happen? Or who is this?
Speaker 1: Everybody name names, and so we need to reduce and
Speaker 1: specify in pinpoint what exactly it is we are afraid of.
Speaker 1: Because if we can whittle down something bad will happen to,
Speaker 1: you know, my shoes will click clack on the floor
Speaker 1: too well the and everybody will turn and look to
Speaker 1: see who that is. Then that becomes much easier to
Speaker 1: to logic with. So they look at me. That's how
Speaker 1: how bad is that is? That? That I can handle
Speaker 1: that as opposed to something bad will happen or everybody
Speaker 1: will hate me. We can whittle that down to I
Speaker 1: will go to a party and try to make conversation
Speaker 1: and the person I talk to will give me a
Speaker 1: weird look and say he has to go refill his drink.
Speaker 1: Now you know that's there are a lot of different
Speaker 1: reasons for that. Maybe he's maybe he's hungry, maybe he's
Speaker 1: an a mood, maybe he's kind of a jerk. And
Speaker 1: so if we specify what exactly it is we are
Speaker 1: afraid of, what our feared outcome is, then it becomes
Speaker 1: much easier to logic our way out of. So that's
Speaker 1: one to specify.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a powerful tool to go away from
Speaker 4: that that sort of vague, amorphous fears that we have
Speaker 4: and sort of boil them down to all right, here's
Speaker 4: what the actual thing is. Even just that alone can
Speaker 4: be so powerful. And then from there you recommend three
Speaker 4: magic questions.
Speaker 1: Sure, so, so the magic questions want to specified, are
Speaker 1: you know, what's the worst that can happen? Like? What what?
Speaker 1: What am I really afraid of? Let's let's push this
Speaker 1: to to its limit. And and so when when we
Speaker 1: think about like, okay, like what what what is the
Speaker 1: worst that can happen? So let's let's say we are
Speaker 1: going to a job interview, So what's the worst that
Speaker 1: can happen? Yeah, I don't I don't get the job?
Speaker 1: How And then the next question, how bad is that? Well,
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, if I really want this job,
Speaker 1: that would that would be disappointed. I you know, I've
Speaker 1: I've worked hard, I've prepared. I would really like this job.
Speaker 1: But if I don't get it, I can look for
Speaker 1: another job. So so really think about, like what's what's
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario? Sometimes we realize that the worst
Speaker 1: case scenario would never actually occur, which makes it very
Speaker 1: easy to logic with. So for example, we might think,
Speaker 1: in a I don't know, crowded cafeterre, we we ask, oh,
Speaker 1: is this is this seat taken? The worst case scenario,
Speaker 1: the person stands up and stops at us and says, yes,
Speaker 1: this seat is taken. What are you doing? Go away?
Speaker 1: Nobody wants you here. That's never going to happen. So
Speaker 1: that's often the things that that our brain comes up with. Once,
Speaker 1: once we either write them down or say them out loud,
Speaker 1: we realize, wait, whoa, my brain is is going a
Speaker 1: little haywire here and in this universe that would never occur.
Speaker 1: So be very helpful to think about, like, what what
Speaker 1: is my brain think is the worst case scenario? And
Speaker 1: then and then we can ask to go with that
Speaker 1: same example, what are the odds? What are the odds
Speaker 1: that will actually occur? Because again, our inner critic and
Speaker 1: our social anxiety tells us that terrible things are a
Speaker 1: foregone conclusion, when actually most people are nice, most people
Speaker 1: are helpful. It's really hard to hate up close. If
Speaker 1: you're talking to an individual person, it's the chances that
Speaker 1: they will be rude to you are actually quite low.
Speaker 1: So what are the odds is another question you can
Speaker 1: ask yourself. And then the third is how would I cope?
Speaker 1: What would I do if the worst case scenario or
Speaker 1: or even the most likely case scenario comes to pass?
Speaker 1: How how can I deal with that? What can I do?
Speaker 1: What resources can I gather? Is? If something were to
Speaker 1: occur that we're to rattle you, could you call a
Speaker 1: friend and talk it out. Could you take care of
Speaker 1: yourself and maybe just take a few deep breaths, or
Speaker 1: next chance you get, go to a yoga class? Can you, like,
Speaker 1: what can you do to take care of yourself if
Speaker 1: something you know untoward were to happen? So to realize
Speaker 1: how bad could this be? What are the odds? And
Speaker 1: how would I cope? So those are the three questions
Speaker 1: you can ask yourself to kind of psyche yourself up
Speaker 1: to go into the situations very slowly, again at your
Speaker 1: own pace that you fear.
Speaker 4: Yeah, those are such great tools and such a really
Speaker 4: practical way of having some very specific questions that we
Speaker 4: can ask ourselves, and you know, the very process of
Speaker 4: getting very specific. So much of this stuff it's not
Speaker 4: about positive thinking. It's about not about rose colored glasses,
Speaker 4: but it's about precision in our thinking and really trying
Speaker 4: to sort of, you know, pull things out of the
Speaker 4: closet and look at them, you know, a little bit
Speaker 4: more closely and from a few different angles. And when
Speaker 4: we do that, it usually shrinks things down to some degree.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, you're you're absolutely right. So it's taking
Speaker 1: these thoughts that are often very automatic or you know,
Speaker 1: our inner critic sometimes just becomes a habit and we
Speaker 1: avoid things just because we always have. But if we
Speaker 1: stop and really shine a bright light on what it
Speaker 1: is we're afraid of, we might realize either wait a minute,
Speaker 1: that's unlikely, that's illogical, or I could probably handle that.
Speaker 1: So let me go and try that and see what happens.
Speaker 1: Let me do a little experiment and see what occurs,
Speaker 1: and so and any of those things will get us,
Speaker 1: We'll start to get us unstuck and rolling on our way.
Speaker 4: Yep. So let's move to another major tool, which is embrace.
Speaker 4: So step one is we're replacing. Step two is embracing.
Speaker 4: So what are we doing in the embrace step?
Speaker 1: Sure? So with embrace, this is codeword for acceptance, which
Speaker 1: is also code for mindfulness. And so I talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about this before without really labeling it as such,
Speaker 1: in terms of the difference between just the taking the
Speaker 1: thought as truth and taking it as a thought. And
Speaker 1: so to to get some space and realize that all
Speaker 1: the things our inner critic is whispering to us are
Speaker 1: are just thoughts, that's all it is, and that we
Speaker 1: don't have to follow the inner critics directions or even
Speaker 1: follow it to its advice is actually quite lousy. It's
Speaker 1: keeping us from, you know, living the life we want
Speaker 1: to live. It's probably holding us back. And so some
Speaker 1: some mindfulness and just realizing like, Okay, I might feel
Speaker 1: like this social anxiety is a ball and chain. I
Speaker 1: might feel like it is really shackling me and hold
Speaker 1: me back. But in reality, what I can do with
Speaker 1: embrace and mindfulness is to pick up that ball and
Speaker 1: carry it with me. The ball is still going to
Speaker 1: be there, the inner critic's still going to be there,
Speaker 1: the thoughts will still come, but rather than reacting to
Speaker 1: the thoughts, I can choose how to respond to the thoughts,
Speaker 1: and in that is a whole world of difference. So
Speaker 1: there's a lovely study on mindfulness and social anxiety by
Speaker 1: two Canadian researchers, doctor Stephanie Cassen and doctor Neil Rector.
Speaker 1: And so they trained about sixty people with diagnosables so
Speaker 1: what I call capital s social anxiety for just ten
Speaker 1: minutes in either mindfulness distraction, which is paying attention to
Speaker 1: something that is not the task at hand, and the
Speaker 1: third group got trained in nothing at all. So there
Speaker 1: are three conditions, mindfulness, distraction, and then a pure control condition.
Speaker 1: So in the mindfulness condition they were taught have focus
Speaker 1: on their breath to bring their attention back when it wandered,
Speaker 1: to be aware of their thoughts and feelings, and accept
Speaker 1: their experience in the present moment. So after this you know,
Speaker 1: little ten minute training, these sixty people with you know,
Speaker 1: social anxiety were asked to remember a really humiliating awkward
Speaker 1: or anxiety provoking experience like a date gone horribly wrong,
Speaker 1: or a presentation that flopped, or like something super awkward
Speaker 1: they did at a party. And so they were asked
Speaker 1: to bring memory to mind as vividly as possible, to
Speaker 1: like really get in there and wallow around in their
Speaker 1: embarrassment and their anxiety for five minutes, and then they
Speaker 1: rated how upset they were about that. Okay. Then for
Speaker 1: the next five minutes they were asked to apply what
Speaker 1: they had just learned mindfulness distraction, which was basically trying
Speaker 1: not to think about it or just to wait it out,
Speaker 1: and then they were asked to rate how upset they
Speaker 1: were again, and so, of course, which you know which
Speaker 1: group won out. So the mindfulness group won out because
Speaker 1: and so their distress went down steadily and significantly over
Speaker 1: those five minutes. In distraction it didn't go down at all,
Speaker 1: and in the weighted out group it actually went up.
Speaker 1: And so this was after just ten minutes of training,
Speaker 1: which I think is remarkable, And so it really speaks
Speaker 1: to how simply being aware that like this, this is
Speaker 1: the thought I'm having and that's okay, I can accept
Speaker 1: my thoughts and feelings in the as a present in
Speaker 1: the present. We want to realize it's it's just a
Speaker 1: thought can be so helpful in reducing that distress that
Speaker 1: goes along with social anxiety.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is so powerful to actually be able to
Speaker 4: just experience what's actually happening in a more open and
Speaker 4: non judgmental way. The other part of embrace that you
Speaker 4: talk about that I think is so important. You give
Speaker 4: an example of like how two different coaches might help
Speaker 4: somebody and one is really yelling at them and the
Speaker 4: the other is the other is being kind, and so
Speaker 4: a big part of embrace that you talk about is
Speaker 4: just this turning our inner environment into a hospitable place,
Speaker 4: and the huge difference that makes if we just treat
Speaker 4: ourselves like we would a friend. I feel like that's
Speaker 4: one of the most fundamental shifts if we can learn
Speaker 4: to make to consistently think about, all right, how am
Speaker 4: I talking to myself? What am I saying to myself?
Speaker 4: And what would I say to a friend? And can
Speaker 4: I just turn the tone back towards a kinder, more
Speaker 4: hospitable interior environment.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. We can't heal in a punitive environment. You
Speaker 1: can't grow in a punitive environment. And so I've talked
Speaker 1: to a lot of people who say that their inner
Speaker 1: critic is a real jerk, you know, like really yells
Speaker 1: at them or tells them they're stupid or that they're
Speaker 1: an idiot, and they would never say that to a
Speaker 1: friend or somebody they love. And so trying to translate,
Speaker 1: you know, the again, the inner critic means well, even
Speaker 1: if even as the inner critic is calling you an idiot,
Speaker 1: it's trying to help you, it's trying to keep you safe.
Speaker 1: But what we can do is to use what's you know,
Speaker 1: what is widely known as self compassion and to to
Speaker 1: talk to ourselves in a compassionate, more accepting bay. And
Speaker 1: when we create that environment, then we can grow and change.
Speaker 1: We're not we're not letting ourselves off the hook. We're
Speaker 1: not giving in So a wonderful example I've heard from
Speaker 1: doctor Kristin Neff, who is a researcher at the University
Speaker 1: of Texas and has done a lot in the field
Speaker 1: of self compassion, is that she says, imagine, imagine a
Speaker 1: compassionate mother. That mother is not going to say, go
Speaker 1: ahead and eat all the cookies, no problem. The compassionate
Speaker 1: mother will say, well, I know cookies are tempting. I
Speaker 1: totally get that you want to eat all these cookies,
Speaker 1: but maybe you can make a healthier choice. And so
Speaker 1: it doesn't it doesn't allow you to be indult. It
Speaker 1: doesn't let you off the hook and say like you
Speaker 1: don't have to go to the party, or you don't
Speaker 1: have to apply for that promotion, or you know, you
Speaker 1: don't have to go hang out with your co workers.
Speaker 1: It doesn't allow you, but it says, you know, I
Speaker 1: know this is hard. It's really hard to go to
Speaker 1: a neighborhood barbecue where you only know a couple of people.
Speaker 1: It's really hard to go on a first date. It's
Speaker 1: really hard to put yourself out there. It's really hard
Speaker 1: to walk up to someone and start a conversation. But
Speaker 1: you know what, you've done hard things before. I know
Speaker 1: you can do it. I know you can get through it.
Speaker 1: Give it a shot and see what happens. That's self compassion,
Speaker 1: And so for me, my inner critic actually is not
Speaker 1: a jerk. My inner critic is I like to say,
Speaker 1: a little old lady who clutches her pearls so she's
Speaker 1: easily scandalized and says that's not appropriate. You can't do that,
Speaker 1: and so I will say to her like, thank you,
Speaker 1: I appreciate what you're doing. And it is hard to
Speaker 1: reach out to intellectual I luminaries, to research book. It
Speaker 1: is it is hard to do this, but you know,
Speaker 1: it actually is appropriate. I think they might be flattered
Speaker 1: that that I'm asking them for their advice or their wisdom.
Speaker 1: And so let's give this a shot and see what happens.
Speaker 1: That makes the road so much smoother than saying, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, this is not appropriate, this can't this can't
Speaker 1: be so uh So I've I've found it. It's it's
Speaker 1: much easier to talk to yourself as that coach as
Speaker 1: opposed to the putative coach, which is your your unvarnished
Speaker 1: inner critic.
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean it really makes all the difference in
Speaker 4: the world. I mean it's a small change, it's also
Speaker 4: a huge change, but it is one of those things
Speaker 4: that's just so fundamental to a better and happier life. Absolutely, so,
Speaker 4: we're nearing the end of our time here, but let's
Speaker 4: talk about creating structure in our social situations. I found
Speaker 4: this to be a really powerful tool and a good
Speaker 4: alternative to, as you mentioned, spending all your time with
Speaker 4: the cab. I love dogs, but if you put me
Speaker 4: in a party and there's a dog, it's a combination
Speaker 4: to me loving dogs and it being easier to pat
Speaker 4: and talk to a dog than a person.
Speaker 3: I'll go right for it.
Speaker 4: But I have found this trick of creating structure to
Speaker 4: be really helpful for me also, so I was wondering
Speaker 4: if you could share that with listeners.
Speaker 1: Oh it's so great. I used this the other day.
Speaker 1: So yeah, my department at work had a spring reception,
Speaker 1: and so you know, and I know these people well
Speaker 1: enough now that it was I was not, you know,
Speaker 1: fantasizing about jumping out the window, you know, before I went.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I said, okay, well let
Speaker 1: me go in with some structure. Let me give myself
Speaker 1: a mission to fulfill. I give myself a role to play.
Speaker 1: And so this can be done formally. So for instance,
Speaker 1: like if you're a member of an organization like this,
Speaker 1: a well kept secret, in my opinion, is to take
Speaker 1: on a leadership role and that gives you a reason
Speaker 1: to talk to everybody, it gives you a duty to fulfill.
Speaker 1: Or it can also be done informally like what I
Speaker 1: did at this respect where you can go in and
Speaker 1: say like, all right, I'm going to talk to each person,
Speaker 1: I supervise my boss and the receptionist, and after that
Speaker 1: I can go and to just kind of give yourself
Speaker 1: a mental checklist of like what you're going to do
Speaker 1: or who you're going to talk to, and then after
Speaker 1: that you're done. You can do the same thing in
Speaker 1: terms of a goal. So like if you and your
Speaker 1: friends want to get together and make a goal to
Speaker 1: try every Mexican restaurant in town, or when you go
Speaker 1: to a birthday party, you can assign yourself the task
Speaker 1: of talking to, you know, two people you've never talked
Speaker 1: to before, or like if you're at a networking event,
Speaker 1: you can say, like, all right, I'm going to try
Speaker 1: to exchange three sets of business cards. Essentially, it gives
Speaker 1: you a purpose and it takes away the biggest driver
Speaker 1: of anxiety, which is uncertainty. And so I can I'll
Speaker 1: I'll just close this bit with there's a lovely study
Speaker 1: I like to talk about by doctors Simon Thompson and
Speaker 1: Ron Repay and so they they're Australian researchers who work
Speaker 1: with social anxiety, and so they did this lovely experiment
Speaker 1: which brought in women with social anxiety, so diagnosable social anxiety,
Speaker 1: and then women who were kind of the opposite, not
Speaker 1: not psychopaths, but women who were kind of more confident
Speaker 1: and outgoing and could chat easily with others. They were
Speaker 1: kind of at the top end of the extrovert socially
Speaker 1: confident spectrum. And one at a time, they had each
Speaker 1: of these women come into a waiting room, essensibly for
Speaker 1: the experiment, and little did they know that the experiment
Speaker 1: began as soon as they walked through the door. So
Speaker 1: they sat down and a male research assistant who they
Speaker 1: thought was also a participant came in, sat down next
Speaker 1: to them and said, I hope we don't have to
Speaker 1: wait too long. And every thirty seconds for five minutes,
Speaker 1: if the conversation had lulled, he would give another prompt
Speaker 1: so he would say like, oh, nice weather we're having
Speaker 1: or something like that. And this went on for five
Speaker 1: minutes and was surreptitiously videotaped by the researchers. After five minutes,
Speaker 1: a researcher came in and said, oh, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming. I really appreciate you taking part in
Speaker 1: the study. Here's your task for the next five minutes,
Speaker 1: I'd like to pretend that you're at a party, and
Speaker 1: I'd like the two of you to get to know
Speaker 1: each other as well as you can in the next
Speaker 1: five minutes. Go. So now they had some structure, they
Speaker 1: had a mission and a goal. And when these two
Speaker 1: five minute periods, these videotapes were watched and compared and
Speaker 1: rated on social competence. When the raiders looked at those
Speaker 1: first five minutes with the women with social anxiety, they
Speaker 1: rated much lower than the women who were kind of
Speaker 1: more confidently chatty. But if we look at the second
Speaker 1: five minutes there the two groups, social anxiety and the
Speaker 1: opposite thereof were almost neck and neck. The social anxiety
Speaker 1: group was a little bit behind, but not much, which
Speaker 1: is really impressive given that they were being compared to
Speaker 1: to people who you know, kind of do this naturally,
Speaker 1: who have never met a stranger. And so just a
Speaker 1: little bit of structure, kind of giving yourself a mission
Speaker 1: can magically take away that uncertainty, and it seems like
Speaker 1: it confers social skills, but really all it does is
Speaker 1: create a structure for you to kind of hang your
Speaker 1: conversation on, and that that is so helpful. In so
Speaker 1: many situations.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's another one that you mentioned in the book
Speaker 4: that I have used, which is if I go into
Speaker 4: a networking situation when I don't know anyone, I will
Speaker 4: often make it my goal to find somebody who looks
Speaker 4: more uncomfortable than me and absolutely and go talk, you know,
Speaker 4: go talk to that person and try and help them
Speaker 4: to feel better.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a tool that has.
Speaker 4: Helped me often when I, you know, when I'm in
Speaker 4: a situation like that, because it does give me something
Speaker 4: to do. And also, you know, I've got a lot
Speaker 4: of experience. My previous company was a solar energy company,
Speaker 4: and I was always networking, and so I also found
Speaker 4: it really helpful, like you said, to go in with
Speaker 4: a goal of like, all right, I want to find
Speaker 4: these five people, and I want to have a conversation
Speaker 4: with them. Like it just gave me a little bit
Speaker 4: more focus than just standing there being anxious.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And the well kept secret is that pretty much
Speaker 1: everybody is waiting for somebody else to initiate, and when
Speaker 1: someone does initiate, they're so relieved, and so it takes
Speaker 1: the burden off of others when we initiate. When when
Speaker 1: we search out the person who might be kind of
Speaker 1: nervously scrolling through their phone or standing alone by the
Speaker 1: you know, punch bowl or the bar, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of sipping their drink and looking around. And when we
Speaker 1: find the people who look like they could use some
Speaker 1: help starting a conversation or would be relieved if we
Speaker 1: started the conversation, oftentimes they're they're very grateful and it
Speaker 1: leads to a wonderful connection. So yes, I wholeheartedly support
Speaker 1: your technique there.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, Ellen, we are at the end of our
Speaker 4: time here. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I really enjoyed
Speaker 4: the book, and I hope that these tools are useful
Speaker 4: to listeners. You and I are going to continue the
Speaker 4: conversation in our post show conversation where listeners can get
Speaker 4: access to that by becoming supporters of the show. If
Speaker 4: you're interested, go to oneufeed dot net slash support and
Speaker 4: we are going to talk about the five myths of
Speaker 4: social anxiety in the post show conversation. But thank you again, Ellen,
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 1: It was a delight to talk to you. Eric. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me on the show.
Speaker 3: Okay, bye.
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