1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:24,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I don't want to pick a fight with the 2 00:00:24,236 --> 00:00:27,836 Speaker 1: cartel or the biker gangs or drug boards. I'm not 3 00:00:28,516 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: I'm a small town chief trying to run the department, 4 00:00:31,116 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 1: and we have one cold case that we're trying to solve, 5 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:36,756 Speaker 1: so we just want to find the truth. That's Ben Ford, 6 00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:39,956 Speaker 1: the chief of police in Traveler's Rest. When I was 7 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: reporting for this podcast, I spent a bunch of time 8 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: with Chief Ford, or Ben, that's what he said I 9 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: should call him. He's a very personable guy, and he's 10 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:53,356 Speaker 1: deeply invested in Brooke Henson's case. In fact, when I 11 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 1: first started poking around on the story, he actually reached 12 00:00:56,836 --> 00:00:59,516 Speaker 1: out to me. He wanted to share what he knew 13 00:00:59,916 --> 00:01:02,156 Speaker 1: in the hopes that by getting the word out there, 14 00:01:02,516 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 1: he might finally solve this case. So when I first 15 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:09,836 Speaker 1: got into town, we drove around owned for a while, 16 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:12,956 Speaker 1: gave me a little tour, and we talked about the case, 17 00:01:13,356 --> 00:01:16,636 Speaker 1: about all the competing theories and what happened, and then 18 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:20,196 Speaker 1: we headed back to his office and talk some more. Honestly, 19 00:01:20,556 --> 00:01:23,836 Speaker 1: it's unusual for law enforcement to be quite this candid, 20 00:01:24,476 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 1: So today we're sharing some of that conversation, and one 21 00:01:28,796 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 1: of The first things that Ben shared with me was 22 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:34,556 Speaker 1: that he'd grown up here in Traveler's Rest, and so 23 00:01:34,756 --> 00:01:38,476 Speaker 1: everything that happened here with Brooke Henson it was personal 24 00:01:38,516 --> 00:01:55,556 Speaker 1: for him. I'm Jake Halbern and this is deep cover 25 00:02:08,876 --> 00:02:20,716 Speaker 1: this week or going back to Traveler's Rest. So what 26 00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:22,316 Speaker 1: was it like growing up here? I'll just give me 27 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:25,716 Speaker 1: a sense for her. Yeah, yeah, So you know, quiet 28 00:02:25,876 --> 00:02:29,516 Speaker 1: small town. You pretty much knew everybody, and you're you 29 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: knew of everybody, so there weren't many things that could 30 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:38,956 Speaker 1: get kept secret around here. So you know, it was 31 00:02:38,996 --> 00:02:40,996 Speaker 1: a quiet little town, not a whole lot of crime, 32 00:02:41,156 --> 00:02:43,316 Speaker 1: you know, just a great place to grow up. Really, 33 00:02:44,316 --> 00:02:47,036 Speaker 1: Brook Henson must have been about your age, maybe a 34 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:49,116 Speaker 1: bit younger. She was a little younger than me. Yes, 35 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:51,956 Speaker 1: did you know her or her family growing up? I 36 00:02:52,036 --> 00:02:54,476 Speaker 1: did not. I didn't know. I was five years I see, 37 00:02:54,556 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 1: five years older than her. I believe my brother actually 38 00:02:59,756 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 1: is three years younger than me and actually knew her, 39 00:03:01,916 --> 00:03:05,796 Speaker 1: and actually my my wife knew her from school, so 40 00:03:06,396 --> 00:03:10,116 Speaker 1: I have those connections that they knew of her, and 41 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 1: and Brooke dropped out of school early in high school, 42 00:03:12,956 --> 00:03:15,236 Speaker 1: in tenth grade. I believe it was But but growing 43 00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:17,316 Speaker 1: up through middle school in high school. Yeah, I've got 44 00:03:17,316 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 1: family members and my wife that that kind of knew her. 45 00:03:19,916 --> 00:03:24,436 Speaker 1: Does that change things in terms of making them more personal? 46 00:03:24,516 --> 00:03:29,556 Speaker 1: Like this is not just some random person who you're investigating. 47 00:03:29,596 --> 00:03:32,116 Speaker 1: What happeness is someone that you have personal connections to 48 00:03:32,236 --> 00:03:34,716 Speaker 1: in a small town. It does for me. And even 49 00:03:34,756 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 1: when I worked to another agency, the Maldon Police Department, 50 00:03:39,436 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 1: I knew of this case. I knew of this case 51 00:03:41,516 --> 00:03:43,716 Speaker 1: my entire career. When I worked to other agencies and 52 00:03:43,756 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 1: I knew that she was missing and it was unsolved. 53 00:03:46,716 --> 00:03:49,516 Speaker 1: And if there were people that I came across that 54 00:03:49,596 --> 00:03:52,476 Speaker 1: I thought may know something, I would ask And it 55 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:54,956 Speaker 1: wasn't even my case. Then I worked for other agencies, 56 00:03:54,996 --> 00:03:57,716 Speaker 1: but I would ask and if if they had good information, 57 00:03:57,756 --> 00:03:59,756 Speaker 1: I would refer them up here to travels rest to 58 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:02,276 Speaker 1: see if they could help help out with the case. 59 00:04:02,316 --> 00:04:05,116 Speaker 1: So it does. It does make it a little more personal. 60 00:04:06,556 --> 00:04:10,396 Speaker 1: I have an investigative background throughout my career. Most of 61 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:13,436 Speaker 1: my career has been investigations, and it's something that that 62 00:04:13,476 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 1: I don't like to give up home. It's just especially 63 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:19,996 Speaker 1: when when it hits home and it's so close to 64 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 1: people that I know. So there's so many of different 65 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:27,156 Speaker 1: accounts in the media, and I know a lot of uh, 66 00:04:27,436 --> 00:04:29,596 Speaker 1: there's a lot of misinformation out there. But let's maybe 67 00:04:29,636 --> 00:04:31,636 Speaker 1: just start like, what do we know about the facts 68 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: of this case? Are what are the things that we 69 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:37,636 Speaker 1: can say relatively certain, and what don't we know about 70 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:42,276 Speaker 1: the facts surrounding her disappearance. So interestingly enough, what we 71 00:04:42,396 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 1: thought were facts in this case may not have been 72 00:04:45,436 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 1: now that we've we found out in the last year. 73 00:04:48,716 --> 00:04:52,756 Speaker 1: So what was reported was that Brooke was last seen 74 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:55,436 Speaker 1: at her residence at about two thirty in the morning, 75 00:04:56,076 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 1: outside of the residence going for a walk. That's reported 76 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 1: by her mother and a couple of other individuals family 77 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 1: members there that spoke to her saw her. That's their account. 78 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:13,636 Speaker 1: We don't actually know if that's true or not. They're 79 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 1: they're conflicting stories now saying that no, she never walked 80 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:20,756 Speaker 1: away from the house. She was other places. We have 81 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:24,636 Speaker 1: several statements now that she was last seen alive up 82 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:27,876 Speaker 1: in the River Falls community of Greenville County, which is 83 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:32,156 Speaker 1: about six or eight miles north of Traveler's Rest, and 84 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:34,916 Speaker 1: we believe that she was last thing alive up there 85 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:37,076 Speaker 1: on the same night or a different night. It would 86 00:05:37,076 --> 00:05:39,956 Speaker 1: be the same night, the same night she was known 87 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:42,676 Speaker 1: to leave and maybe walk around the town. She was 88 00:05:42,756 --> 00:05:44,956 Speaker 1: known as a walker around town, and she may walk 89 00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:48,116 Speaker 1: to get some cigarettes or walk up to the to 90 00:05:48,236 --> 00:05:52,476 Speaker 1: the local store, and there was some pool tables there 91 00:05:52,556 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 1: and a little hangout. Of course, these places were closed 92 00:05:55,476 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 1: this time of night, which makes it even more strange 93 00:05:58,076 --> 00:06:01,076 Speaker 1: on why she would have went for a walk. Then, however, 94 00:06:02,316 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 1: we have statements that say that, you know, this person 95 00:06:05,516 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 1: picked her up, or this person picked her up, or 96 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:10,036 Speaker 1: we have so many different statements. Don't know what's true 97 00:06:10,076 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 1: and what's not. So what we're finding out is the 98 00:06:13,356 --> 00:06:18,156 Speaker 1: deeper we dig, the more stories we're hearing. I heard 99 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:20,836 Speaker 1: one the other day and I can't go into detail 100 00:06:20,836 --> 00:06:24,756 Speaker 1: about some of the stories, but allegedly this person killed 101 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:26,476 Speaker 1: her now and we never heard that person's name in 102 00:06:26,476 --> 00:06:29,716 Speaker 1: twenty three years, and this is how this person did it. 103 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:32,396 Speaker 1: So you know, we're we're still following up on that obviously, 104 00:06:32,436 --> 00:06:36,316 Speaker 1: but but you know, she was The facts remain in 105 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:39,716 Speaker 1: the case file that she was last seen at her residence. However, 106 00:06:39,796 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 1: we do have statements she was seen in Riverfalls, so 107 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 1: we believe somebody picked her up what we believe now 108 00:06:45,036 --> 00:06:48,396 Speaker 1: took her to River Falls to some more parties. We've 109 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:50,236 Speaker 1: been told there were parties up there too that night, 110 00:06:50,276 --> 00:06:52,436 Speaker 1: so we believe that she was last seen alive up there. 111 00:06:52,756 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 1: What happened that all of a sudden a year ago, 112 00:06:55,276 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 1: this changes. I mean we're almost more than twenty years out, 113 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 1: so what happens that kind of gets this new information going. 114 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: So when I came in the end of twenty eighteen, 115 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 1: I started digging into the case myself. I wanted to 116 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:14,156 Speaker 1: look at it and see after a couple of years 117 00:07:14,236 --> 00:07:16,356 Speaker 1: of doing that off and on, you know, being the 118 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:20,236 Speaker 1: police chief, I have other responsibilities too. There's a friend 119 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:24,156 Speaker 1: of mine, this retired law enforcement that he and I 120 00:07:24,196 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 1: talked about this case a little bit, and he wants 121 00:07:27,916 --> 00:07:29,996 Speaker 1: to be anonymous, and I'm going to keep him anonymous. 122 00:07:30,076 --> 00:07:34,236 Speaker 1: But he came into the picture and we talked a 123 00:07:34,236 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 1: little bit, and I allowed him to look at the 124 00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 1: case file, which is, you know, for bankers box full 125 00:07:41,556 --> 00:07:44,756 Speaker 1: of information. Of course, I scanned it and put it 126 00:07:44,756 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 1: on digital format so he could look at it and 127 00:07:46,356 --> 00:07:48,316 Speaker 1: that type of thing. So when he came on the scene, 128 00:07:49,036 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 1: he had some it was a fresh set eyes. It 129 00:07:51,276 --> 00:07:53,036 Speaker 1: was a retired law enforce a officer. This is just 130 00:07:53,116 --> 00:07:55,716 Speaker 1: volunteer in his time. So at that point we really 131 00:07:55,716 --> 00:07:57,876 Speaker 1: sort of hitting it hard and talking to more and 132 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 1: more people. And so about a year. It was April 133 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 1: of last year, April twenty twenty one when we started that, 134 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:07,156 Speaker 1: and that kind of jolted us in this investigation to 135 00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 1: spend more time working on it. The main thing that 136 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:15,356 Speaker 1: we've heard in the last year is that it's not 137 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:19,836 Speaker 1: necessarily how Route was killed, it's what happened to her afterwards, 138 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:24,756 Speaker 1: and that it's much bigger than we could ever imagine. 139 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:28,356 Speaker 1: That's what people are telling us, So we're trying to 140 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:31,356 Speaker 1: figure out what they mean by that. And and the 141 00:08:31,396 --> 00:08:34,116 Speaker 1: different theories that have come into play is one has 142 00:08:34,156 --> 00:08:36,476 Speaker 1: to do with some type of satanic worship or cult, 143 00:08:37,116 --> 00:08:40,316 Speaker 1: some something's you know that could be a possibility. Um, 144 00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 1: there's been mentions of of maybe biker motorcycle clubs involvement. UM, 145 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:48,836 Speaker 1: I won't go in specifics because you just don't know 146 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:50,956 Speaker 1: if it's true. We haven't proved any of that. And 147 00:08:50,956 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 1: then there's there's also been mentioned of of cartel of 148 00:08:54,396 --> 00:08:57,716 Speaker 1: Mexican cartel involvement and over drugs and stuff. Is that 149 00:08:57,836 --> 00:09:00,636 Speaker 1: carteller was that cartel active at that time in this area. 150 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:04,196 Speaker 1: They were, They were not and not the way that 151 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:08,356 Speaker 1: they are in today's world with the with the methamphetamine 152 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:10,516 Speaker 1: trade and things like that. But and again I'm not 153 00:09:10,596 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 1: gonna accuse any which one of those because I don't 154 00:09:13,436 --> 00:09:17,236 Speaker 1: know yet. Um, but you know, these may be distractions 155 00:09:17,236 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 1: as far as we know, we don't. We don't know, 156 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:21,396 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of things that lead us that 157 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:26,036 Speaker 1: point to those different possibilities with the Satanic worshiping and 158 00:09:26,396 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 1: then the drugs and the money, you know, because when 159 00:09:29,036 --> 00:09:31,916 Speaker 1: when people go missing or or get killed, you know, 160 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 1: funny and drugs and greed, you know, lust, those are 161 00:09:35,236 --> 00:09:38,876 Speaker 1: big reasons why people die. Among those three theories, is 162 00:09:38,916 --> 00:09:41,596 Speaker 1: there a front runner or is it impossible to say? 163 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 1: I think it's impossible to say right now. Depends on 164 00:09:45,996 --> 00:09:47,876 Speaker 1: what week it is. And one week we're looking at 165 00:09:48,316 --> 00:09:52,516 Speaker 1: at the theory of the Satanic worshiping and the black magic, 166 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:56,556 Speaker 1: and then uh, the next week something points us in 167 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:58,716 Speaker 1: a different direction. So we're just trying to keep an 168 00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 1: open mind to all of it and not get tunnel 169 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 1: vision on it. The one key thing we're really missing, 170 00:10:04,996 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 1: it's the body, and that's the big, big thing we're missing. 171 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:11,716 Speaker 1: I believe that if we could find the body, then 172 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 1: this case would move forward faster. We just don't have 173 00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:17,996 Speaker 1: a body. Talked me through how that would be true. 174 00:10:18,276 --> 00:10:22,476 Speaker 1: So when you have a missing person, you can't there's 175 00:10:22,476 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 1: no crime. So somebody that's missing, there's no crime. If 176 00:10:26,796 --> 00:10:29,836 Speaker 1: you find a body, and then you can determine if 177 00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:34,076 Speaker 1: the person was murdered normally, or if they died of 178 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:36,796 Speaker 1: natural causes or whatever the case may be. Brooke could 179 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: be alive in California right now. Do you think that's 180 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:42,116 Speaker 1: a possibility. I don't know. I don't think that she 181 00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: would have left her mom. Her mom and her very close. 182 00:10:45,716 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 1: I don't think she would have left her mom or friends. 183 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 1: And if she had, she would have she would have 184 00:10:51,276 --> 00:10:53,396 Speaker 1: made contact by now. I don't believe that's a possibility. 185 00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 1: So the body you were saying, if you could find, 186 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:00,956 Speaker 1: if you had the body, then what if we had 187 00:11:00,996 --> 00:11:05,036 Speaker 1: the body, that would confirm one of the many stories 188 00:11:05,156 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: we have or theories about how she died about maybe, 189 00:11:10,956 --> 00:11:17,876 Speaker 1: for example, if the body is in said grave and 190 00:11:18,116 --> 00:11:21,036 Speaker 1: said wooded area, then we take it and go back 191 00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 1: and look at all the tips that came in and say, okay, 192 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:25,956 Speaker 1: well these ten tips now may be true because of 193 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:27,796 Speaker 1: where the body's found. I see. So it's kind of 194 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:30,356 Speaker 1: like putting the putting the puzzle together, but we don't 195 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:33,196 Speaker 1: have that that main piece we need. It's almost like 196 00:11:33,236 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 1: you know how the story ends, and then you can 197 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:37,836 Speaker 1: work backwards to figure out what happens in between. Correct. Correct. 198 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 1: We believe that in the case file the answers are 199 00:11:42,036 --> 00:11:44,716 Speaker 1: in there. We just don't know. It's like a multiple 200 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:47,956 Speaker 1: choice tests. We don't know which one is true. But 201 00:11:48,076 --> 00:11:50,036 Speaker 1: we believe that the answers right there in front of 202 00:11:50,156 --> 00:11:51,556 Speaker 1: so we just don't know which one's true yet. That 203 00:11:51,596 --> 00:11:55,076 Speaker 1: sounds like that could drive you crazy. Absolutely can Absolutely 204 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:57,716 Speaker 1: it has been driving me crazy for three years. Now. 205 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:01,756 Speaker 1: Can I ask you why is this so important to you? 206 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 1: I mean, I get I think I understand it. But 207 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:07,756 Speaker 1: someone might look and say, hey, this happens so long ago. 208 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 1: Parents are both deceased, Brook appears to be deceased. Why 209 00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:16,076 Speaker 1: why is this so important to get to the bottom 210 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:21,556 Speaker 1: of this? Because this is my hometown, and when someone 211 00:12:21,636 --> 00:12:27,476 Speaker 1: goes missing and allegedly something happened to that person, somebody 212 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:32,036 Speaker 1: needs to fight for justice for her, and if the 213 00:12:32,116 --> 00:12:36,196 Speaker 1: family has passed on, there are friends of hers, and 214 00:12:36,236 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: there's me, and there's this police department that will fight 215 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 1: for justice for And I don't plan on giving up, 216 00:12:44,436 --> 00:12:47,236 Speaker 1: even though it gets frustrating, because someone needs to fight 217 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:49,836 Speaker 1: for her. And if we don't fight for her, then 218 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:52,636 Speaker 1: who then who's going to fight for the justice for her? 219 00:12:53,116 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 1: If this person or those persons killed her. We want 220 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of it and hold those 221 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:04,516 Speaker 1: individuals accountable. So it's justice is what it's about. For me. 222 00:13:05,116 --> 00:13:07,876 Speaker 1: I get that. And I could also see how it 223 00:13:08,356 --> 00:13:10,596 Speaker 1: in some ways to finds this place and sense of like, 224 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:13,276 Speaker 1: this is not okay to happen in this town, right 225 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:16,556 Speaker 1: and we're not gonna accept this right exactly, And in 226 00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:19,956 Speaker 1: twenty three years, this is the only cold case we have, 227 00:13:20,356 --> 00:13:24,076 Speaker 1: This is it? We don't We don't have a lot 228 00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:27,556 Speaker 1: of violent crime happen here, well, you know, and I 229 00:13:27,636 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 1: pride myself on that, and I love this city because 230 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:32,356 Speaker 1: of that. And we're four and a half square miles. 231 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:36,156 Speaker 1: It was small. We're small, seven thousand residents, and we 232 00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: have about five violent crimes a year, which I love. 233 00:13:40,036 --> 00:13:43,716 Speaker 1: But this one, you know, if we don't try to 234 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:45,916 Speaker 1: find out and give it my all. I'm gonna try 235 00:13:45,956 --> 00:13:47,836 Speaker 1: it to the day I retire the best I can 236 00:13:47,836 --> 00:13:49,996 Speaker 1: to try to find out what happened to her. And 237 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 1: if we don't try, then who John Campbell and I 238 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 1: and view him today was talking about being involved in 239 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:56,596 Speaker 1: the early days at this case, and he said a 240 00:13:56,596 --> 00:13:59,196 Speaker 1: few things that were interesting. One he said he took 241 00:13:59,196 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 1: over about two years into it, and he said all 242 00:14:01,956 --> 00:14:03,876 Speaker 1: he got were some written notes that were pretty hard 243 00:14:03,916 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 1: to make sense of because it was pre computer days. 244 00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:10,956 Speaker 1: And he wished that it had been treated as a 245 00:14:11,036 --> 00:14:13,956 Speaker 1: murder right from the beginning. What's your take on that. Yeah, 246 00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 1: you know, anyone that looks when you put a new 247 00:14:16,316 --> 00:14:18,556 Speaker 1: set of eyes on a case like this, you can 248 00:14:18,596 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 1: always say, well, why didn't they do this, why didn't 249 00:14:20,636 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 1: they do that? And some of that's been frustrating for 250 00:14:23,756 --> 00:14:26,436 Speaker 1: me too, you know, wondering why they didn't document it better, 251 00:14:26,516 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 1: or why they didn't do this or that. Unfortunately, you know, 252 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:33,356 Speaker 1: after you spend a couple of days worrying about that, 253 00:14:33,556 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 1: you kind of have to let it go because it's 254 00:14:35,156 --> 00:14:37,236 Speaker 1: just not there and you kind of move on with 255 00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:39,676 Speaker 1: what you have. But but John's right there there. I 256 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:42,796 Speaker 1: wish it had been treated differently. But then again, you 257 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 1: look at you know, hundreds of thousands of people go 258 00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: missing every year in this country, and if every one 259 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 1: of them was treated like a homicide, imagine how many 260 00:14:52,756 --> 00:14:56,716 Speaker 1: officers it would take to, you know, follow those cases 261 00:14:56,756 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 1: correctly and work them like a homicide. Sure, we may 262 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:01,396 Speaker 1: get a missing person called this afternoon and then thirty 263 00:15:01,396 --> 00:15:05,116 Speaker 1: minutes find the person, and that's the happy ending. We 264 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 1: find the person, they're safe, and you know, then we 265 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:10,356 Speaker 1: may get one that maybe another twenty three years we 266 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:13,476 Speaker 1: haven't found. So you never know how it's going to 267 00:15:13,596 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 1: end out. So I guess back then they thought it 268 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 1: was just another runaway and that maybe she just ran away, 269 00:15:20,036 --> 00:15:21,476 Speaker 1: she'll be home in a couple of days. You know, 270 00:15:21,516 --> 00:15:23,356 Speaker 1: it was kind of thought of that way, and you 271 00:15:23,436 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 1: never really know. So unfortunately it was handled in a 272 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:32,036 Speaker 1: way that that turned out to not be just another runaway. 273 00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:35,156 Speaker 1: John made a reference to an area. Didn't tell me where, 274 00:15:35,756 --> 00:15:37,676 Speaker 1: but that there was a place where they thought the 275 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 1: body might be. What can you tell me about I 276 00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:43,076 Speaker 1: understand that's sensitive, but what can you tell me about 277 00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:46,596 Speaker 1: about that? There's several places mentioned in all of these 278 00:15:46,636 --> 00:15:49,836 Speaker 1: tips that came in where the body may be, and 279 00:15:50,556 --> 00:15:57,076 Speaker 1: some of the places are very difficult to navigate. If 280 00:15:57,596 --> 00:16:02,036 Speaker 1: and I'm going to mention just a pond for example. Okay, 281 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:05,796 Speaker 1: if you have a pond and over the course of 282 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:09,076 Speaker 1: twenty plush years, and the pond is in the mound, 283 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:13,356 Speaker 1: the sediment that rolls that comes down the mountains over 284 00:16:13,436 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 1: twenty plush years, gathers in the bottom that pond. So 285 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:17,396 Speaker 1: the bottom of the pond is not the bottom of 286 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 1: the pond that it was twenty years ago. Or if 287 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:27,996 Speaker 1: you have concrete that is sixteen feet deep and a 288 00:16:28,116 --> 00:16:32,756 Speaker 1: body is put in concrete fifteen feet down, how are 289 00:16:32,796 --> 00:16:34,956 Speaker 1: we ever going to get it? How are we going 290 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:39,796 Speaker 1: to know it's down there? So these things are those hypothetical? 291 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:43,036 Speaker 1: Are those those are possibilities? Those are actual possible possibilities, 292 00:16:43,116 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 1: their possibilities, there's real possibilities. But I don't I don't 293 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: know which one is to me. They're all equally important 294 00:16:49,316 --> 00:16:51,916 Speaker 1: to check out. So what do you do with those 295 00:16:51,956 --> 00:16:55,836 Speaker 1: two possibilities. Well, you hope that technology comes along far 296 00:16:55,956 --> 00:16:59,316 Speaker 1: enough and you get someone that can either volunteer their 297 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:03,196 Speaker 1: equipment or maybe get the FEDS involved, or maybe Greenville 298 00:17:03,196 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 1: County helps out and tries to locate you know, a 299 00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:11,836 Speaker 1: body in in these areas. UM. So a combination of 300 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:17,716 Speaker 1: all those things. And then UM, you know one you know, 301 00:17:17,796 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: you think you can drain a pond. You know, ponds 302 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 1: can be drained, but depends on how big the pond is, 303 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:25,196 Speaker 1: how deep it is. There's so many factors that come 304 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:30,236 Speaker 1: into play. UM. Concrete, you know, you can't just tear 305 00:17:30,276 --> 00:17:33,796 Speaker 1: up the concrete unless you have something solid to to show, yes, 306 00:17:33,876 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 1: that body is down there. So then you look at 307 00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:42,956 Speaker 1: you know, equipment like UH or penetrating UM, I forget 308 00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:46,676 Speaker 1: what the solar penetrating or you know, the ground penetrating radar, 309 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:49,436 Speaker 1: that's it ground and you look at that and using that, 310 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: but it's not going to show a three D image 311 00:17:51,916 --> 00:17:54,756 Speaker 1: of a body or bones. It may just show avoid 312 00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:59,436 Speaker 1: you know. So technology, it depends on technology, It depends 313 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: on and and I do believe that if we were 314 00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 1: ever to find a body, UM, then you do you 315 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:07,556 Speaker 1: have DNA possibilities. You know, Now, if there's anything with 316 00:18:07,636 --> 00:18:10,836 Speaker 1: the body, maybe we find one of these suspects DNA 317 00:18:10,916 --> 00:18:12,676 Speaker 1: in there with it. You know, So that type of thing. 318 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:15,636 Speaker 1: That's why I mentioned the body's important right now. But um, 319 00:18:15,916 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: you've got whales. People have said she's been put in 320 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 1: a whale. Well in the country, there's lots of whales 321 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:25,676 Speaker 1: and if and to look in whales, we had to 322 00:18:25,836 --> 00:18:28,196 Speaker 1: We've looked in one whale. We had to get a 323 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:33,276 Speaker 1: camera from a local um a company, drop it down 324 00:18:33,316 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 1: about fifty feet and look around in that whale. And 325 00:18:35,316 --> 00:18:37,836 Speaker 1: of course we didn't find anything. But there's a lot 326 00:18:37,876 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: that goes into trying to use the equipment and check 327 00:18:40,556 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 1: out these places. It seems it seems overwhelming very much. 328 00:18:44,476 --> 00:18:46,836 Speaker 1: So it is I go home with this, I think 329 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: about it all the time. I have to try to 330 00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 1: set it aside because I have a family, you know, 331 00:18:52,476 --> 00:18:53,996 Speaker 1: I have to try to set it aside and just 332 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:56,916 Speaker 1: not think about it all the time. But when you 333 00:18:57,036 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 1: open up this Pandora's box of of what happened to Brooke, 334 00:19:01,716 --> 00:19:06,516 Speaker 1: then you know there's fifty people that have my work 335 00:19:06,556 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 1: cell phone number and they'll call me weekends nights if 336 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 1: they have information. They don't mind calling, and I don't 337 00:19:12,836 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 1: mind them calling me because I want to try to 338 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: get everybody involved I can to see if we can, 339 00:19:17,036 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 1: you know, find out. But it weighs on me a 340 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: little bit. I think I've had hair turned gray and 341 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 1: turned loose a lot over the past couple of years, 342 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 1: given me both. I mean, the other thing that seems 343 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:32,516 Speaker 1: that they would kind of mess with my head is 344 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 1: that there are folks walking around this town. You said, 345 00:19:35,516 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 1: you said, one of the first things you said we 346 00:19:37,076 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: said this interview is they're not a lot of secrets 347 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:42,436 Speaker 1: in this town. And yet we're talking about maybe the 348 00:19:42,476 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 1: biggest secret right here. Because if what you're saying is right, 349 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:49,476 Speaker 1: there may be multiple people who know what happened to her. Now. 350 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 1: I believe that. I believe multiple people know. I believe 351 00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:55,516 Speaker 1: in my mind six eight ten people know what happened 352 00:19:55,556 --> 00:19:58,076 Speaker 1: to her. And I believe there were accomplices and there 353 00:19:58,076 --> 00:20:03,916 Speaker 1: were people that helped help move the body or help 354 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:07,596 Speaker 1: you know, bear the body. There's I believe a lot 355 00:20:07,596 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 1: of people know. However, the people that they're scared of, 356 00:20:11,636 --> 00:20:14,916 Speaker 1: the ones above them that are run that we're running 357 00:20:14,916 --> 00:20:17,636 Speaker 1: the show back then, or that they help control over them, 358 00:20:18,076 --> 00:20:19,756 Speaker 1: that's why they can't tell. And I believe a lot 359 00:20:19,796 --> 00:20:21,236 Speaker 1: of the people that are several of the people that 360 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: know are dead now. Ricky Shawn Shirley, he's dead now, 361 00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:26,516 Speaker 1: and I believe he knew what happened to her. It 362 00:20:26,516 --> 00:20:30,876 Speaker 1: sounds like your investigation would be helped by support from 363 00:20:30,876 --> 00:20:33,716 Speaker 1: the county and maybe even the FEDS. Yeah, And to 364 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:35,796 Speaker 1: be honest with you, the FEDS have been here, They've 365 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 1: talked to us, they're assisting us on some things. The 366 00:20:39,156 --> 00:20:41,996 Speaker 1: FBI is they've worked with us a little bit when 367 00:20:41,996 --> 00:20:46,036 Speaker 1: a halftime. The county has helped us on some things 368 00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:49,716 Speaker 1: with some searches of some areas outside of our jurisdiction 369 00:20:49,756 --> 00:20:52,276 Speaker 1: here in the city. We do not believe our bodies 370 00:20:52,276 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 1: in this city. We believe it's out in the county. 371 00:20:55,156 --> 00:20:58,076 Speaker 1: All these different locations that that Dopu mentioned as possibilities 372 00:20:58,076 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 1: that they're all out in the county. Yeah, talk to 373 00:21:02,476 --> 00:21:05,316 Speaker 1: me about a little bit about the Aster Reid situation. 374 00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:08,316 Speaker 1: Obviously that's first of all, you weren't here in Champa's 375 00:21:08,356 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 1: rest and it's kind of peripheral to to brock Hanston's story. 376 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: But do you remember that unfolding at the time, What 377 00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:19,156 Speaker 1: were thoughts about about all that? I do remember that unfolding, 378 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:23,796 Speaker 1: and when that happened, it really piqued my interest, and 379 00:21:23,876 --> 00:21:27,036 Speaker 1: I actually called John back then and I said, John, 380 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:30,916 Speaker 1: what's going on? Is this a possibility, and he said, 381 00:21:31,436 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 1: I'm checking, I'm checking, let me check, And I said, 382 00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:37,236 Speaker 1: do what you gotta do. You know, I'm just because 383 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:41,356 Speaker 1: I knew John worked here. Um. I was an investigator 384 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:43,996 Speaker 1: in another agency at the time, and it really piqued 385 00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 1: my interest that Now, when you say a possibility, do 386 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 1: you mean that that that this was really Brooke Hanson. 387 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:50,116 Speaker 1: It was up in New York at Columbia, right right? 388 00:21:50,116 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 1: I mean it would it would have been um, it 389 00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:56,556 Speaker 1: would have been very interesting. Um. You know, one tip 390 00:21:56,676 --> 00:22:00,276 Speaker 1: back then in the Brooke Henston case was that that 391 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:02,956 Speaker 1: she left and went to California, and she just ran 392 00:22:02,996 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 1: away to California and wanted to be on her own. 393 00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 1: So it was feasible that she could have possibly went 394 00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:10,636 Speaker 1: to New York, you know, and stayed up there, so 395 00:22:10,676 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 1: that it was a possibility. But then it didn't take 396 00:22:13,436 --> 00:22:17,596 Speaker 1: much checking to determine the truth, obviously, But but it 397 00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:20,156 Speaker 1: did pique my interest in the case, and I was 398 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 1: very curious at the time and talked with John about 399 00:22:22,836 --> 00:22:25,556 Speaker 1: it a little bit back then. What I mean, there 400 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:28,116 Speaker 1: was for a brief while there was a ton of 401 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:32,236 Speaker 1: media attention, mainly ons to read, but probably also spill 402 00:22:32,316 --> 00:22:34,476 Speaker 1: over into Broke Hanson. Me. Look here, I am all 403 00:22:34,516 --> 00:22:38,396 Speaker 1: these years later. What did that do for the case? 404 00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 1: Between two thousand, Between about two thousand and I guess 405 00:22:44,236 --> 00:22:48,636 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, there was hardly anything done on 406 00:22:48,676 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 1: this case. Very little. John did a little bit, but 407 00:22:52,316 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot to go on. When Esther read happened, 408 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 1: all kinds of tips started coming in after that, so 409 00:23:00,116 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 1: they determined that Esther Reid was Ester Reid, not Brooke Henson. 410 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:04,476 Speaker 1: But then more tips came in and more tip It 411 00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:06,396 Speaker 1: brought more attention. It brought it back to life, so 412 00:23:06,516 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 1: to say. And that's kind of what I did when 413 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:12,236 Speaker 1: I came in twenty eight, twenty nineteen, kind of bring 414 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:14,916 Speaker 1: it back to life. So it was very it was 415 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 1: good attention. It was sad that it happened the way 416 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 1: it did, but it was it kind of brought it 417 00:23:19,836 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 1: back to life. And and uh so, so the friends 418 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 1: of hers wouldn't forget, so the community wouldn't forget. And 419 00:23:27,476 --> 00:23:31,516 Speaker 1: as far as as as long as I'm here, um, 420 00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:34,596 Speaker 1: we'll use our social media to always remind the community 421 00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 1: will never forget. I was surprised that you reached out 422 00:23:37,316 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 1: to me in all my years as a journalist. I 423 00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:41,676 Speaker 1: don't think I know a case where the law enforcement 424 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 1: reached out. I mean, this is a missing person, but 425 00:23:45,156 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: clearly this must be part of your mission. It is, 426 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 1: and transparency is what I'm all about. I don't mind sharing. 427 00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:55,236 Speaker 1: Of course, you know there's details of the case. I 428 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 1: can obviously and you understand why. But why hide We 429 00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 1: need the we need help. If if if one of 430 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:04,476 Speaker 1: your listeners here's here's this and says, you know what. 431 00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:07,756 Speaker 1: I know the truth and I'm tired of you know 432 00:24:07,876 --> 00:24:10,116 Speaker 1: it needs to come out now, and it'd be great. 433 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:12,636 Speaker 1: And like I said earlier, if if we don't care, 434 00:24:12,676 --> 00:24:16,156 Speaker 1: who's going to care? If I retire from here in 435 00:24:16,276 --> 00:24:19,996 Speaker 1: whatever year I retire, it may be the end of it. 436 00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 1: Maybe nobody picks up, maybe nobody messes with it anymore. 437 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:25,076 Speaker 1: It's just my mentality. I don't want to let it go. 438 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: Do you think you're going to solve it today? It 439 00:24:33,316 --> 00:24:36,956 Speaker 1: feels like I'm not. Why do you say that? Because 440 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:40,476 Speaker 1: tomorrow it may change And one day I feel like 441 00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 1: I will, and the next day I feel like I 442 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:45,196 Speaker 1: want it based on what information has come in that 443 00:24:45,276 --> 00:24:51,236 Speaker 1: day that has changed my mind. And last week there's 444 00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 1: some information that came in, I felt really good about 445 00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:57,516 Speaker 1: Today I don't feel as good about it. So this 446 00:24:57,556 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 1: is unlike any other case I've ever worked. I could 447 00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:01,396 Speaker 1: work a case and I could tell you with one 448 00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: hundred percent certainty, I'm gonna solve this case, or with 449 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:06,636 Speaker 1: one hundred percent certainty, there's no way I can solve 450 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 1: this case because I don't have any evidence in this case. 451 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: There's a plethora of information, but we don't have a body. Yeah, 452 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:18,796 Speaker 1: I honestly think that we won't solve this case unless 453 00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 1: we have a body. After speaking with Ben Ford, I 454 00:25:23,556 --> 00:25:26,996 Speaker 1: spent the next several months reporting this story, making the 455 00:25:27,036 --> 00:25:30,436 Speaker 1: season that you just heard, But I never stopped thinking 456 00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:33,636 Speaker 1: about Ben and the enormity of the task that he faced. 457 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:37,476 Speaker 1: Part of me hope that maybe after the podcast came 458 00:25:37,516 --> 00:25:41,636 Speaker 1: out he might get some new leads. So when our 459 00:25:41,716 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: last episode dropped, I called him up to check in. 460 00:25:45,476 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 1: That's next after the break? Any you there? Yeah, I 461 00:26:01,596 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 1: hear you that. How are you any good? How are 462 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:06,116 Speaker 1: you I'm good, I'm good. I want to check in 463 00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:07,556 Speaker 1: with you on a few things. So it sounds like 464 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,236 Speaker 1: you had a chance to to listen to the podcast. 465 00:26:10,316 --> 00:26:13,836 Speaker 1: I wondered, like, what your reactions were. You know, I 466 00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. I didn't know a lot about Esther 467 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:20,876 Speaker 1: Reid in that case, just for what John Campbell told 468 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:24,396 Speaker 1: me and what I read in the news. I mean, 469 00:26:24,396 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 1: I was very surprised that you had a conversation with 470 00:26:28,676 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 1: Esther and I loved hearing what was going on in 471 00:26:32,276 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: her mind. What did you make of this kind of 472 00:26:35,716 --> 00:26:38,116 Speaker 1: new stage of her life where she's after Matthews and 473 00:26:38,156 --> 00:26:41,236 Speaker 1: she's a professor atak and Zaga. What did you what 474 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:44,916 Speaker 1: did you make of that? Well, you know, hearing where 475 00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:47,516 Speaker 1: she came from and what she went through and you 476 00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:50,156 Speaker 1: know when she was younger. You know, it just showed 477 00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 1: me and it confirmed that anybody, know, anybody can do 478 00:26:54,676 --> 00:26:57,596 Speaker 1: what they put their mind to. And she chose to 479 00:26:57,676 --> 00:27:00,276 Speaker 1: live one way and do certain things a certain way 480 00:27:00,316 --> 00:27:02,436 Speaker 1: for a long time, and then she decided to do 481 00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:06,276 Speaker 1: it a different way. I'd love to see when people 482 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 1: actually turned their lives around, and there's six more successful 483 00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: than they were when they were making bad decisions. So 484 00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:15,756 Speaker 1: I thought it was great. I thought it was a 485 00:27:15,756 --> 00:27:19,956 Speaker 1: great story. Oh, I appreciate that. I'm wondering if, since 486 00:27:19,996 --> 00:27:24,196 Speaker 1: the podcast came out, whether any additional tips or bits 487 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:27,756 Speaker 1: of information have come your way. We haven't, not since 488 00:27:27,836 --> 00:27:31,676 Speaker 1: the not since the podcast has come out. Ironically, though, 489 00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:37,076 Speaker 1: before the podcast was released, I did have a man 490 00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 1: contact me from our county's attencive Center and we talked 491 00:27:42,196 --> 00:27:45,756 Speaker 1: with him and eventually we got him in here and 492 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:50,076 Speaker 1: he gave us some information and he actually said I 493 00:27:50,196 --> 00:27:54,756 Speaker 1: knew where Brooke is buried whoa And we said, well, 494 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:57,196 Speaker 1: how do you know that? And he said, well, I 495 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 1: heard two people talking about it and they said where 496 00:28:01,876 --> 00:28:04,356 Speaker 1: she was buried at? I said, can you take us 497 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 1: to the spot, and he said yes, I said, let's go. 498 00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:11,716 Speaker 1: So we went to the spot. Um, it was on 499 00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:17,436 Speaker 1: a piece of property that belongs to a family that 500 00:28:17,916 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 1: the mom and dad are deceased there. So the sister 501 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:23,916 Speaker 1: was in charge of the property and gave us permission 502 00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:26,276 Speaker 1: to look on the property. So we went on the property. 503 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:30,356 Speaker 1: He pointed out the location. We put him back in 504 00:28:30,436 --> 00:28:33,156 Speaker 1: the vehicle away from the scene, and we brought in 505 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:39,436 Speaker 1: cadaver dog. Cadaver dog alerted. So we took that dog 506 00:28:39,476 --> 00:28:42,476 Speaker 1: away and we brought another dog in and that dog 507 00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 1: at what is that when you said cadaver dog alerted? 508 00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:51,516 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Exactly? So that means they picked 509 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:58,316 Speaker 1: up what they believed to be the scent of decayed 510 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:02,996 Speaker 1: body or bones. Now it's it's not a it's not 511 00:29:03,076 --> 00:29:09,156 Speaker 1: a perfect science, and it's it's not an absolute So 512 00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 1: that's why we use two different dogs, and we had 513 00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: a statement from somebody, so we used all of that 514 00:29:16,076 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 1: in order to get a search warrant for the property. Well, 515 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:24,436 Speaker 1: Greeble County came out and helped, and we dug and 516 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:30,036 Speaker 1: found nothing. So we kind of like climax there, thinking 517 00:29:30,156 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 1: we were gonna we were on something and we didn't 518 00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:36,836 Speaker 1: find one ball, nothing and we dug a lot big area. 519 00:29:37,516 --> 00:29:39,396 Speaker 1: Do you think this was at the time where you 520 00:29:39,436 --> 00:29:41,596 Speaker 1: like this this is in or were you we use 521 00:29:41,716 --> 00:29:44,676 Speaker 1: skeptical You know, I try to not to get my 522 00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:47,676 Speaker 1: hopes up, um and I I try not to show 523 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:49,436 Speaker 1: that I get my hopes up because I've been let 524 00:29:49,476 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 1: down so many times, you know. But in this case, 525 00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:55,196 Speaker 1: you know, I thought there was gonna be something. I thought, yeah, 526 00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: this is a very good possibility. Let's let's find her. 527 00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:02,676 Speaker 1: And and so I did think it was, but I 528 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:06,996 Speaker 1: didn't want to show too much enthusiasm due to the 529 00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 1: fact I've been let down so many times. So when 530 00:30:09,636 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 1: we found out it wasn't, I was disappointed. But then 531 00:30:12,476 --> 00:30:15,676 Speaker 1: yet again, it's another lead that we've checked off. Wow, 532 00:30:16,716 --> 00:30:19,916 Speaker 1: it's true. It's it's like, you don't know, you have 533 00:30:19,956 --> 00:30:22,756 Speaker 1: to follow up every lead. I guess that seems even 534 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:27,116 Speaker 1: remotely credible. I guess right, that's the only Yeah, and 535 00:30:27,836 --> 00:30:30,956 Speaker 1: you know, we we were hesitant to listen to him 536 00:30:30,956 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: at first, But anytime somebody says I know where the 537 00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 1: body's at, I can show you. I mean, we've got 538 00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:40,556 Speaker 1: to go. We've got to go with it and we've 539 00:30:40,556 --> 00:30:44,396 Speaker 1: got to check it out. Um. But that's that's the 540 00:30:44,556 --> 00:30:47,716 Speaker 1: most we've done with the case. In the past few months. 541 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 1: I've had people ask me too, whether you're any further 542 00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:54,076 Speaker 1: along than they beginning some ground penetrating radar at the 543 00:30:54,556 --> 00:30:58,556 Speaker 1: at the water treatment plan. So you know, I did 544 00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: some more research and I found a company and they 545 00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 1: volunteer their services to law enforce in all of the 546 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:09,556 Speaker 1: country and they have ground penetrating radar. So who are 547 00:31:09,556 --> 00:31:11,636 Speaker 1: I'm planning to call? Nick? Yeah, please let let me 548 00:31:11,676 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 1: know how let me know how that goes, whether I mean, 549 00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:17,356 Speaker 1: if that ends up happening, or just stay in touch 550 00:31:17,356 --> 00:31:19,436 Speaker 1: with me. I'd be curious. I really wouldn't be curious. 551 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 1: Look is so so by far to you again and 552 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:25,036 Speaker 1: you'll have a good weekend there, Okay, take care of Ben. 553 00:31:25,036 --> 00:31:30,876 Speaker 1: Bye bye, thank ye. Talking to Ben and getting this 554 00:31:30,996 --> 00:31:34,276 Speaker 1: update on the investigation, it really hit home for me 555 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 1: how there were all these leads, all these people who 556 00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:40,916 Speaker 1: claim to know what happened to Brooke, and how each 557 00:31:40,956 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 1: time one of these leads surfaced he had to take 558 00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:47,636 Speaker 1: it seriously, and that inevitably part of him hoped that 559 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:50,836 Speaker 1: this one might be the breakthrough, the one that helped 560 00:31:50,916 --> 00:31:54,116 Speaker 1: him solve the case and at long last bring some 561 00:31:54,236 --> 00:31:58,596 Speaker 1: closure and some healing to this town. But so far 562 00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 1: it was just dead ends and heartbreak, and then inevitably 563 00:32:03,716 --> 00:32:07,076 Speaker 1: a new lead and the cycle would begin again. I 564 00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:10,196 Speaker 1: could see how, after so many years, this would all 565 00:32:10,236 --> 00:32:14,396 Speaker 1: take a toll on everyone. And yet He's still added, 566 00:32:17,556 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 1: we'll keep you updated if we hear anything else from 567 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:23,956 Speaker 1: the Travelers RESTPD. Then Ford is still working diligently on 568 00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:28,116 Speaker 1: the Brookenson case. So if you have any new information 569 00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:31,676 Speaker 1: at all that might be helpful, please contact him at 570 00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: Ford at tr police dot com. That's fr D at 571 00:32:36,716 --> 00:32:46,876 Speaker 1: tr police dot com. Deep Cover is produced by Amy 572 00:32:46,956 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 1: Gaines and Jacob Smith. This episode was edited by Sophie Crane, 573 00:32:51,956 --> 00:32:55,996 Speaker 1: mastering by Sarah Bruger. Our show art was designed by 574 00:32:55,996 --> 00:33:00,156 Speaker 1: Sean Karney. Original scoring and our theme was composed by 575 00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:05,356 Speaker 1: Luis Gera Special thanks to Karen Shakergie Mia Loobelle, Greta 576 00:33:05,436 --> 00:33:09,036 Speaker 1: Khne and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Jake Halper