1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: boy do we have a treat for you today. We 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: have a special guest. Four time podcast guest, Dr Mara Hart, 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: marine biologist extraordinary and author of Sex in the Sea. 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: She's back. That's right, Yeah, we she was on three 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: times before she took. One episode she talked about the 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: autodox bone worm. Another episode she talked about sharks and 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: shark reproduction, and then another episode was all about coral 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: and the reproductive strategies of coral. Man. Marine reproduction is 12 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: just one of those endlessly deep, endlessly rich, endlessly fascinating 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: subjects like you never run out of weird, fascinating stuff 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: to talk about when it comes down to getting busy 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: in the ocean. That's right. I mean we we keep 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: covering it on the show here, and of course that 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: is the central topic in Mara's book, Sex in the Sea. Now, 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: for those of you out there who haven't heard our 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: previous episodes with Dr Mara Heart, we should introduce her 20 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: a little bit. That's right. Dr Marahart is research co 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: director for Future of Fish and her work has appeared 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: in Scientific American, The American Prospect, yale E three sixty, 23 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: Creation Care Magazine, UH, Scuba Diver Magazine as well. And 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: again she's the author of Sex in the Sea, which 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: is available now in all formats. You know. Actually we 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: just finished talking tomorrow and so she emailed us right 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: after we finished talking and said like, hey, one more 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: thing can you remind the people? And absolutely we can. 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: So that extra thing is that Dr Mara Heart will 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: be giving a talk at the Denver Museum of Nature 31 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: and Science on Valentine's Day this year, so February four, nineteen. Uh, 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: you should look into it. It will be for those 33 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: of y'all in the Denver region. We know there are 34 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: quite a few of you out there. Actually, Uh, it's 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: supposed to be a really cool event with cocktails, apps, 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: book talk and signing. If you're a Colorado person, you 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: should check that out. All right, without further Ado, let's 38 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: chat with Mara Hart. Heymorrow, welcome to the show. So 39 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: for listeners who haven't heard the other episodes you were on, 40 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: could you go ahead and introduce yourself. Hi guys, thanks 41 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: for having me back I'm thrilled to be here. My 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: name is Mara Hart, and I'm a marine biologist and 43 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: research director at the nonprofit Future of Fish. And I'm 44 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: also author of the book Sex in the Sea, where 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: I explore all the weird and wild and wonderful sex 46 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: habits of marine life and how humans impact those behaviors 47 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: and what we can do to help create more sex 48 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: friendly oceans. So, Maura, I just read this book for 49 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: the first time and I loved it. It was full 50 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: of fascinating stuff, I mean, really really great, and I 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: guess it's uh, I mean, the CEA is full of 52 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: fascinating reproduction itself. And one of the fact that's stuck 53 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: with me the most, actually, I think just because this 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: is something that people actually tend to put in their 55 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: mouths without knowing what it is, is that is gonads. 56 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: I had no idea. Yeah, I know, right, and it's 57 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: it's one of these things that we do right with, 58 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: especially ocean animals and seafood. You know, we call things 59 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: fish or we call things, you know, uni, and we 60 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: don't know what the part is. And half the time 61 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: we don't even know what the animal is that we're eating, 62 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: what species it is. So yeah, nis unis gonads. And 63 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: I actually have a question for any chefs that listen 64 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: to your your podcast whether or not it's male or females, 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: because sea urchins have separate sexes, and so I don't 66 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: know whether or not like male gonads make better UNI 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: or female gonads make better UNI, and whether they screen 68 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: or it just doesn't matter. Now it's been I guess 69 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: in three years since I read the book for the 70 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: first time, so I'm blanking a little bit on on UNI. 71 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: Like where where where am I encountering this in my 72 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: restaurant going experiences. Yeah, specific item on the sushi yep, 73 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: and normally it's in the fancier sushi places. It'll actually 74 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: be served in the sea urchin. So sea urchins are 75 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: they look like big spiky balls. They're sort of just 76 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: giant round organisms. They're related to see stars and sea cucumbers. 77 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: And what they do in the restaurants is they tend 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: to kind of chop off the top and then they'll 79 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: serve it in the test or it's kind of like 80 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: the shell, but it's called the test for the sea urchin, 81 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: and they have spines all over them, and then the 82 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: UNI is normally like a bright orange color and it's 83 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: sort of a I don't know, what would you say 84 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: it consistency is Joe. It's like a sort of like 85 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: a creamy row if you imagine like a very like 86 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: like like salmon egg row, except with tighter, tighter sphere 87 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: ules whatever you call them, like a creamy texture like 88 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: cream of wheat. Almost it's it, and it is the 89 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: the equivalent of row, except you know, in fish we 90 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: eat the row, which are the eggs? We don't We 91 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: don't eat the male gam meats the but in searchins. 92 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: That's my question is I think uni can be either 93 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: male or female gamme eats. So anyway, standing question to anybody, 94 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: any of your listeners who might know the answer to that, 95 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: if they're sushi aficionados or chefs, um, please let me know. Well, 96 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder are there other animals were eating 97 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: the gonads without knowing about it? Ah, it's a good question. 98 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: You know, I will fully claim that I'm a vegetarian, 99 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: so I'm not going to be the right that, um, 100 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: but you know, I think they're I think there definitely are, 101 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: and certainly it's a delicacy in some cases, right like um, 102 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I can't. I can't speak in detail, but 103 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure, um, I'm sure, Mark, if if you don't 104 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: mind me asking, um, concerning vegetarianism, I know a lot 105 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: of the work that you do has to do with UH, 106 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: sustainable seafood and UH and and and certainly you're you 107 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: have this connection with marine biology. Did did either of these? 108 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: Were these factors in and you choosing a vegetarian diet. Yeah, 109 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: it's it's a good question. So I'm one of the rare, 110 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: I think, folks who gave up fish. Before I gave 111 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: up cow, I was totally happy eating burgers and chickens 112 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: and everything for quite some time. Um, But it was 113 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: it was when I was I got certified to scuba 114 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: dive at twelve, and after I started diving and just 115 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: seeing the animals on the reef, I just didn't want 116 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: to eat them anymore. And I loved I grew up 117 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: eating tons of seafood. I'm from the East Coast, Northeast, 118 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: and yeah, lobsters and cod and gosh everything you can imagine. Um, 119 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: but yeah, I just sort of lost lost interest. UM. 120 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: I just prefer seeing them seeing out seeing them out 121 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: there in nature. And now, given my work I'm I'm 122 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: actually it's it's sort of ironic because I'm a huge 123 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: proponent of people eating seafood, because I think it's actually 124 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: the more sustainable um choice in terms of animal protein, 125 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: certainly better in terms of carbon footprints and water footprints 126 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: then eating land based animals. But for me personally, I 127 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: just still yeah, still don't don't go for it, but 128 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: I do miss it. I mean, I the rest of 129 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: my family is not vegetarians, so I'm surrounded by really 130 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: good sea food a lot of the time and certainly 131 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: through my work, and it is tempting. But at the 132 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: same time, I just sort of yeah, I just sort 133 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: of figure I can let somebody else look, somebody else 134 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: enjoy it, and that's another way that I can try 135 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: to help bring them back. I bet it's interesting to 136 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: eat seafood around you where you have a lot of 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: things to say that we kind of make people maybe 138 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: stop chewing for a second. I know, I try to. 139 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: I try to pick my fun facts wisely so that 140 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: I don't put anyone off their meal. I've definitely misjudged 141 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: sometimes and thought something that was really interesting wound, you know, 142 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: winds up kind of grossing somebody out. I'm like, yeah, 143 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: but it's fascinating that your oyster can change sex. That's 144 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: not a bad thing, that's just really cool, you don't, 145 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: you know? And people are like they do what you know? 146 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: One thing, um that your book really made me think 147 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: about is that I find when talking to people, one 148 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: of the most common misconceptions about evolution that I find 149 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: is a question of emphasis about like where natural selection happens. 150 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: I think people tend to focus almost entirely on survival 151 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: advantages when they're thinking about what natural selection is, and 152 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: don't think nearly enough about reproduction advantages. And uh, and 153 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: when we when we do think about reproductive advantages, it's 154 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: very often in this kind of outdated Vic Torrean style 155 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: you talk about in the book, where it's all about big, 156 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: strong males fighting for access to females, which, of course, 157 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: as you say, is only a tiny sliver of how 158 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: reproductive selection takes place. Do you think it's the case 159 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: that studying nature more closely kind of inherently leads a 160 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: person to think less about violence and survival and more 161 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: about sex and to think about sex in a more 162 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: complex way. I hope, so, I do. I mean, so 163 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, an all fairness. Survival obviously is still a 164 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: massive driver and as I as I mentioned in the 165 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: book in several places, one of the challenges is that 166 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: if an animal is or a population is facing a 167 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: threat um you know, either pollution or fishing or disease, 168 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: bleaching events and corals, and they're stressed out, then successful 169 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: sex and sex in general tends to take a backseat, 170 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: right And the same happens with us if we're if 171 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: we're you know, really tired after a long work day, 172 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, sex isn't always top of mind. UM so 173 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: it is. Its survival is really important. But I do 174 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: think that the more we can understand how much the 175 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: drive to reproduce and how much the need for reproduction 176 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: governs behaviors in wildlife, the more one we can understand, um, 177 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, how these systems work and therefore what our 178 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: impacts can be. But also I do think it it 179 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: lands a nuance to how we think about our own 180 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: behaviors and how we think about um our own societies 181 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: and what it is that we are um being motivated 182 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: by and and and and also those power dynamics. Like 183 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: you said this, it just helps us to question any 184 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: UM reference or cultural sort of carry over that you 185 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: know may have been based on old norms and and 186 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: reconsider what you know, what is quote unquote natural and 187 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: what is quote unquote common or average. UM, Because especially 188 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: in the oceans, I think the subject of sex is 189 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: one of the best ones to do that because it's 190 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: just truly in anything goes kind of a space. UM. 191 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: It is so creative and so innovative. It's UM, it's 192 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: my moggling. And we're and we're continuing to see new 193 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: things that we never thought of UM all the time. Now, 194 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: on that note, I think we chatted with you last 195 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: in in the last year or so, have there been 196 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: any particular UM, new discoveries or breakthroughs in understanding marine reproduction. 197 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: UM that that that that really stuck out to you, 198 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: that you absolutely so last year one of the coolest things. 199 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: And everyone listening out there, please go straight to YouTube 200 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: and look up anglerfish sex and you will find a 201 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: video and like, turn all the lights off in your room, 202 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: put it into full screen mode if you can pull 203 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: it up on your TV, do so and just watch. 204 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: It is unbelievable. There's footage of a living deep sea 205 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: anglerfish and she has these um, really long tendrils that 206 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: are are coming off of her body and they're almost 207 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: luminescing there. They're these like kind of glowing filaments that 208 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: are extending off her body, you know, twice the length 209 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: of her own body in every direction, and she's sort 210 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: of just floating through this dark water with these sort 211 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: of glowing tendrils and then attached right at the base 212 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: of her belly, right before the tail is the tiny 213 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: dwarf mail who she is mating. And it is the 214 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: first time we've ever seen this live um. You know, 215 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: got got footage of these animals in in the act 216 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: and it is just it's something out of science fiction. 217 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it is so cool just to sit and watch. 218 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: So that was one of the neatest things. It wasn't 219 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: a new discovery so much, but it was the first 220 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: time we've been able to see this um that will 221 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: fuse with her body. Correct, Yes, yes, and I think 222 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: this one. So there's there's different um types of relationships there, 223 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: so not all angler fish. Is it a permanent fusion 224 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: um And and to be honest, I should go look, 225 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure he's definitely attached, but I don't know 226 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: if it's the kind where he stays attached for life. 227 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: I think so. Um, And if that is the case, 228 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: then what's happened is his blood, vessels, his tissues, I 229 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: mean everything has literally fused with their females and they 230 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: are now a a like mutual organism and they and 231 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: all of her nutrients because he doesn't eat, all of 232 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: her nutrients are being shared with him. And his job, 233 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: his function is basically to to produce sperm. So he's 234 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: he basically dissolves into a test. These just a giant, 235 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: big test these that hangs off her body. UM, that's 236 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: his role. So yeah, it's it's a really cool video. Um. 237 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: And it's like a you describe it, and it almost 238 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: sounds like a communications array. Um, yeah, that's what it 239 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: looks like. It does. And and UM, I think they're 240 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: still trying to figure out what what all those things 241 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: are for. And if she's you know, out there sensing 242 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: um as part of her way to hunt, um, you know, 243 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: to feel where prey is and then lure them in 244 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: with those that glowing Um that's why they're called angler 245 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: fish because she has that little moore. But UM, I 246 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: think we're still trying to figure that out. I'm not 247 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm not remembering exactly what they're for, whether or whether 248 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: we know, but I'm trying to think. The other really 249 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: cool discovery UM that I just became aware of happened 250 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: um late in a year, and it was researchers over 251 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: in Asia UM discovered that they put cameras inside a 252 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: I think it was a gray nurse shark and they 253 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: discovered that. So I think we've talked about when we 254 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: when we did this show on Shark Sex that there's 255 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: this weird thing where um in San tiger sharks, the 256 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: baby embryos that developing embryos can hatch out of their 257 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: egg cases and the two biggest one in each uterus 258 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: will eat its siblings. It's a it's a cannibalism within 259 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: the uterus, right, So it's totally bizarre. But these researchers 260 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: that just last year showed that it looks like the 261 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: embryos can swim back and forth between the two uterus 262 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: and then attack. So, UM, this is really really different 263 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: and we didn't know that was happening, and they got 264 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: it on camera. This was an animal that was in 265 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: an aquarium and they and they were able to put 266 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: put some I don't know whether it was through ultrasound 267 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: or whether they used fiber optics. Um. Again, you can 268 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: go onto YouTube and look up shark embryo cannibalism and 269 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: there there are videos that have been taken inside the female, 270 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: pregnant female of these voracious developing baby sharks. But in 271 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: this case, yeah, they swam from one to the next, 272 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: from one chamber to the other, which is, yeah, I'm 273 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: not something we knew they could do. So that's a 274 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: really cool discovery and it and it then challenges this 275 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: idea of well, you know, in the Santiger sharks, some 276 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: of the genetics were showing that really it was one 277 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: male that fathered the two biggest embryos that seemed to survive, 278 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: and we thought that maybe it was from the first 279 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: mating and um their subsequent matings after that, than those 280 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: males were really just fertilizing eggs that would ultimately just 281 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: basically serve as food um for these these original residents. 282 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: But if they can swim back and forth, then it's 283 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: you know, does only one survive? Do they battle it 284 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: out or is there enough that they they are okay 285 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: having you know, one in each it's yeah, I don't know, 286 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: really what's happening there? So it definitely calls into question 287 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: some of those strategies. And so to clarify, you're saying 288 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: that this is a case where the sharks can have 289 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: multiple embryos internally at the same time, fertilized by different males, 290 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: and that those embryos can be in competition. Yeah, oh yeah, yep, 291 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: and it might be again one theory and and it's 292 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: it's it's a working hypothesis, is that it's a way 293 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: that the female might actually have more control over the 294 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: fate of her offspring, in the genetic fate of her offspring. Right. 295 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: So with shark mating, there's it's pretty aggressive. Um. Often 296 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: multiple males can can work together to help, and we 297 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: do see this in therese sharks where the multiple males 298 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: will come in and kind of corral a female and 299 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: then it's pretty rough. Um. So for a female who's resisting, UM, 300 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: she she can get torn up pretty pretty badly. And um, 301 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: any of those bites or or scrapes or things can 302 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: can lead to infection, UH, cast her energy to heal. 303 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: UH in some cases could could lead to more serious conditions. 304 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: So resistance is something that a female needs to weigh, right, 305 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: if it's worth that um, even just a chase to 306 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: try to escape is an energy demand. So what what 307 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: one thing that could be happening with this strategy, uh, 308 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: that we see with the sand tiger sharks at least, 309 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: is that if the first mating is with a you know, 310 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: a dominant male and it seems like it's she's good 311 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: with it, then the subsequent matings don't really matter, right 312 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: because those males, even though they're they're copulating and deposing 313 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: their sperm and fertilizing eggs, those later eggs are those 314 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: embryos aren't making it out into the wild and they're 315 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: just again serving as a buffet for their older sibling 316 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: to to munch on. And so it might afford the 317 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: female the ability to not not have to worry about 318 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: the mating and so she can sort of acquiesce. But 319 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: it's strategic, right, Um, we don't know, but that's one 320 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: one potential that that could come out of that kind 321 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: of a system. And so it kind of gives the 322 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: female the chance to to have sex and allow sex 323 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: with other males without it being a consequence in terms 324 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: of her offspring um, which is really interesting to think 325 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: about again how much agents she she really has, how 326 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: much choice quote unquote she's making. We don't know, but 327 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: but the system and some of those opportunities or the 328 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: potential is there. Okay, time to take a quick break, 329 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: but we will be right back with more of our 330 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: conversation with Dr mar Hart. Thank and we're back. So, 331 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: in the past on the show, we've talked with you 332 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: or Robert and Christian in the past talked with you 333 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: about the osodox sharks and coral But in getting ready 334 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: for today's episode, we figured out that you wanted to 335 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: talk about marine gastro pods. So are you ready to 336 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: take us to the world of gastropods? Yes? Please? So, yeah, 337 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: So gastro pods are snails, that's a more common term. Um. 338 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: They are related to the larger film known as mollusks, 339 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: which include all the bivalves you know, clams and hustles 340 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: and oysters, and also the cephalopods which squids and cuttlefish, octopus, 341 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: and then there's a whole bunch of other really cool 342 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: mollusks out there, um that are in different family groups. 343 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: But the snails are are the gastropods um, and they 344 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: are just really cool. And this includes everything from the 345 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: land snails that folks may see, you know, in their 346 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: garden and see slugs that you you know, try not 347 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: to step on when the when the rains come and 348 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: they come out all over your your sidewalks, all the 349 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: way through to abalone and conk and um and the 350 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: new to brinks, which are shell less um slugs that 351 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: live in in the sea but are absolutely beautiful and 352 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: often come in those incredibly dazzling colors that are so 353 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: fun to see if if you're a diverse so there 354 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: are really really diverse group, and of course that diversity 355 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: includes the way that they reproduce. So I it would 356 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: be fun because um, besides corals, we haven't gotten to 357 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: talk too much. I guess ossidas also are inverts. But 358 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: we often overlook the cool invertebrates in the ocean. So 359 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: I thought it might be a fun a fun topic. Well, 360 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: let's not overlook any longer. Where do you want to start? Well, 361 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: I let's see where could we start? Um one of 362 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: my favorite, especially when I was doing the book, because 363 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: I grew up on the Long Island Sound on the 364 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: shores of Connecticut, and there is a shell that you 365 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: can find on the beach out there. That's the common 366 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 1: slipper shell. So it's sort of a pale pink and 367 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: it looks um kind of like if you flip it over, 368 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: it looks like a really fat canoe. Um. So it's 369 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: a sort of this domed shell, and then there's like 370 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: a shelf that comes about halfway across, which is why 371 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: they're called slipper shells, right, because it does look like 372 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: a slipper And there are times, you know, I was 373 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: just back back east um over Thanksgiving and there was 374 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: a full moon and it had been a really high 375 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: tide and the beach was covered in these shells. I 376 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: mean it was you couldn't see any sand. It was 377 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: there were just millions of them. And so they're they're 378 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: really a popular or easily seen snail, and they have 379 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: this fabulous reproductive strategy, and I think they're they're often overlooked. 380 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: M So we could start with them if you want, 381 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: We could dive in. Oh certainly. Now, now to be clear, 382 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about all the shells. Are you talking about 383 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: living specimens on the beach or these like the shell remnants. Yeah, 384 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: So it's both. So that on the higher part of 385 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: the beach you'll often find the empty shells from the snail. 386 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: But if you go down kind of to the low 387 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: tide mark or certainly by the water's edge, what you'll 388 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: find are the living snails. And you'll always find them, 389 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: or almost always, i should say, but nearly always find 390 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: them in groups, and they stuck up on one another 391 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: and they form these sort of wonky dr seuice looking 392 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: like towers. They're never, you know, perfectly straight, but they 393 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: actually grow one on top of the other and sort 394 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: of mold to each other's shell and they'll stay there 395 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: their their whole lives. And then the bottom snail is 396 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: the one that's attached or was attached to some substrate 397 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: at some point a rock or appear or you know, 398 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: a jetty something hard that it can kind of hold 399 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: on to. But um, you can see both the living 400 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: in and then just the shell. The shells are often 401 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: collected um uh, you know, higher up on the beach. 402 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: But yeah, they formed these towers, and so that's another 403 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: good way to know what you're looking at, is to 404 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: see if there's like a whole clump of them. They'll 405 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: often grow on other shells to other animals. But yeah, 406 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: they're they're pretty fun. So when I've seen a stack 407 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: of these shells on top of each other before I've 408 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: actually mistaken it for a single shell. That's like growing 409 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: in a spiral. Does that make any sense? Yeah, yeah, 410 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: it can look like that. It can look like that. Well, 411 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: so so here's what's happening. Um. You know, like most gastropods, 412 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: the baby snail called a villager, starts off in the 413 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: water column and they're sort of floating around and then 414 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: there's they're developing and they get to a point where 415 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: they're like, all right, it's time for me to settle 416 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: and get to the bottom. And so in the slipper shells, 417 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: when they settle down as juveniles, if they find a 418 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: new area where there are no other slippershells, they first 419 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: develop as a male and then they'll very quickly transition 420 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 1: and become a female. So this is known as sequential hermaphroditism. 421 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: There's sequential hermaphrodite. So hermaphrodite is um from from the 422 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: Greek right, Hermes was the male god, Aphrodite is the 423 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: female goddess. And you put those two together, Hermes and Aphrodite, 424 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: you get hermaphrodite. So it means an animal that has 425 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: both male and female parts UM. Often we think of 426 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: this for what's known as a simultaneous hermaphrodite, which means 427 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: that the animal has both male and female parts at 428 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: the same time at once, and we do see that 429 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: in some snails and especially in many new to branks. 430 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: But in the case of the slipper shell, they're sequential hermaphrodites. 431 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: So they start as one sex and then transition into 432 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: the other. And we see this in um many species. 433 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: Clown Fish do this, oysters do this UM and they 434 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: can go it can go either direction in the sea um. 435 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: In this case, they start as males and they transition 436 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: into female. And so that's the first thing that's really 437 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: cool is that they are they are sex changers, which 438 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: again is kind of novel. That's amazing. So what triggers 439 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: the change, Like, what's the advantage to going from one 440 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: sex to the other. Yeah, it's a it's a really 441 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: good question. And again, depending on the species and depending 442 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: on the circumstance, there can be different kinds of UM use. 443 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: But for the slipper shell, when they land, or if 444 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: they land and there is no other slipper shell around, 445 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: no other buddies, then they'll start as mail and do 446 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: this quick transformation to a female and then as a 447 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: mature female with what she will do is release a 448 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: chemical queue into the water, and that chemical que is 449 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: an attractant, and what she's attracting are the new juveniles 450 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: that might be floating around nearby and saying I'm here, 451 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: come on over, and it's and it's a it's a 452 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: scent trail that can lead these baby snails to her. 453 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: But it also has this great side effect of keeping 454 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: those juveniles when they mature as males, just as she did. 455 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: It actually keeps them in the male state so that 456 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: they don't transition into females like she did, but instead 457 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: they attach onto her and they remain a mature male 458 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: producing sperm to fertilize her eggs. And what they do 459 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: is as they attach, they sort of um find a 460 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: clean spot on her on her shell, they'll put their 461 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: foot down, they'll hold on, and then like I said 462 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: with those towers, they sort of grow together, so they 463 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: sort of conform um to one another. And then the 464 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: way that they reproduce is the male has a extendable 465 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: penis and it's actually quite long um and it can 466 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 1: stretch down from his shell and reach down underneath in 467 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 1: order to fertilize her eggs. Now, if you imagine, she 468 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: doesn't just want one male, she wants lots of males 469 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: because she can make a lot of eggs, and so 470 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: she keeps attracting and more and more new newcomers arrived. 471 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: They continue to build these towers and they can be 472 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: six seven, eight animals high. Well, if you're sort of 473 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: late to the party as a male coming on the 474 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: very top, at some point your penis cannot stretch that 475 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: far right, it is too far. Also, you now have 476 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: all these males producing so much sperm that there's actually 477 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: now a lot of competition to fertilize those eggs. So 478 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: what happens is the male that's closest to the female 479 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: will transition into female, and then that will someone up 480 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: the chain to be able to change to reach, and 481 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: for that male, the advantages will Rather than my sperm 482 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,479 Speaker 1: competing with all these other guys to fertilize a limited 483 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: number of eggs, I'm going to swap over and become 484 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: a female and may get all my eggs fertilized because 485 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: there's tons of males now, so my sperm is not needed. 486 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: And as a female, I can ensure because we've got 487 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: this nice big tower of males that all my eggs 488 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: will be fertilized. So my reproductive output is up. I 489 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: will I will gain from this, and so they can transition. 490 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,959 Speaker 1: And so when you're looking at a tower, the next 491 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: time you're looking at this tower, um, you know, the 492 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: bottom one is definitely a female. And then depending how 493 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: big that tower is, the second, the second one maybe 494 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: a female, maybe even the third um. And it's something 495 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: that's a sort of a quote unquote work in progress, 496 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: depending on how how tall these towers grow. And one 497 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: one of my favorite parts about all of this is, 498 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, again, I grew up knowing that these were 499 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: slipper shells, and as I was writing the book and 500 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: learning about this strategy and just how you know, how 501 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: funky it is and in the way that they do 502 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: this amazing reproduction, it occurred to me that their name 503 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: gives it away. In Latin, the scientific name is crepidula 504 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: for nicota, so they're the fornicating snails because those are 505 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: just big sex towers, which it's awesome and a great 506 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: way to introduce folks, especially on the East coast, to 507 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: sex and the sea right right on your local beach, 508 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: so you can, I guarantee you can go out and 509 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: find these. Well there there are a couple of things 510 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: that are really interesting there that we could pick up on. 511 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: One is the idea because I think from reading your book, 512 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: these are not the only organisms that can change sex 513 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: if the like local sex ratio is not not optimal. 514 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: But the other thing is just uh sessile organisms with 515 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: long penises. Because Robert and I just did an episode 516 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: where we talked a bit about barnacles and we we 517 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: mentioned the barnacle penis, but we didn't go into any 518 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: depth on it. Um no pun intended. So the so 519 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: it's true that the barnacle, or at least some species 520 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: of barnacle, have the longest penis to body size ratio 521 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: of any animal on Earth. Absolutely, they're the winners. They are, 522 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: and it's and there's a reason for it, right, it 523 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: makes sense. They are stuck. So barnacles are basically for 524 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: for folks who don't know, you know, often what we 525 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: know of a barnacle is the outer sort of test 526 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: that they build. Um, these sort of interlocking plates that 527 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: create almost it looks like a volcano, right, a mini 528 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: volcano that are stuck on rocks or peel pilings, or 529 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: you know the heads of humpback whales. UM. But the 530 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: animal is it's a crustacean. It's related to like a shrimp, 531 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: and it lies on its back and it sticks its 532 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: feet out of the hole that it creates in this 533 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: sort of volcano like structure, and it waves its feet 534 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: around in the ocean currents and collects little particulates. But 535 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: it's stuck there for its whole life. Can't move. UM. 536 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: But barnacles are hermaphrodites, most species, and so what they 537 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: do is they're kind of you know, on some rocks 538 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: around a tide pool, and they decide they want to reproduce. 539 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: They extend this incredibly long penis out the hole and 540 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: they sort of poke around that died pool, sort of 541 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: reaching around to see, you know, as anybody else open 542 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: for business and can I can I come in? And 543 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: so clearly the longer the reach, the more fertilization they 544 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: can achieve, the more reproduction they can have. So you 545 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: can I almost picture it like when I fly um 546 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: and you look down over the Central Us and you 547 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: see those big crop circles where the water, you know, 548 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: sweeps around. It's kind of like that, right, they're just 549 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: sort of sweeping around with their sperm fertilizing this area. 550 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: They've got a penis radius. It's it's a penis radius. 551 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, right, because there's always a catch. 552 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: The longer your penis, the more it's out there, the 553 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: more drag and the more vulnerability you have. Especially in 554 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: a water environment and the inner tidal environment where barnacles 555 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: tend to be found, it can be pretty rough. And 556 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: so if you have waves coming back and forth and 557 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: slashing over you barnacles, and you know, it's it's a 558 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: it's a sharp environment, and and you you could risk, 559 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, having something shorn off, and that's not not 560 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: always so nice to have happen, right, You don't really 561 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: want that. So we there's been some really cool experiment 562 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: showing not only that the barnacles have these incredible ability 563 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: to extend a very very long fallas, but it's it's malleable, 564 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: it's changeable. So if if you have barnacles that are 565 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: in a really calm lagoon environment, their penises will be 566 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: very long, very thin and kind of stretched out and 567 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: and can kind of sweep really far. But if you 568 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: move them to a rougher environment and environment where there's 569 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: a lot of wave activity, it'll sort of shorten and thicken, right, 570 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: They'll become more stout and and they'll adjust it so 571 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: that it's not at risk to to the environment into 572 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: the sort of rough waters, and they'll have to give up, 573 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, some of that reach in exchange for being 574 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,479 Speaker 1: a little bit thicker and and and sturdier in order 575 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: to deal with the literally like the sheer that's in 576 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: the environment that the forces that they have to battle. 577 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: So I always say props to barnacles for not only lengths, 578 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: but they've got you know, changeable penises, which is pretty cool. Yeah. 579 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: I mean this is on top of just how how 580 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: fascinating I've found barnacles and researching this, uh this previous episode. 581 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: I I it's one of those creatures that you know, 582 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: you you know that they accumulate on on shore rocks 583 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: and certainly on the wholes of ships, but I never 584 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: really realized to what extent they accumulate on the wholes 585 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: of ships like this, the sheer biomass that can occurs, 586 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: it's a it's a big deal. Um. In fact, related 587 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: to back to snail sex um, there was an incident. 588 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember. I think it was like in 589 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: the of ands Um where they the in the shipping 590 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: industry had had created a type of paint you know 591 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: that they paint the bottom of boats with often with 592 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: with biofouling compounds, you know, or anti biofouling compounds, right, 593 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: so that things can't grow in the paint. Yeah, it's 594 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: basically a poison in the paint that um that helps 595 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: to um make sure animals can't accumulate, right, won't won't 596 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: attach their um. And so the the problem was that 597 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: there was a toxin in this paint that was starting 598 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: to affect marine life and in particular was showing up 599 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: in snails. And what was happening was it was triggering 600 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: growth like abnormal growth of penises in female snails. And 601 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: the female snails what was happening was pretty kind of 602 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 1: awful would think about, but the penis was blocking the 603 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: ability of the female to release her eggs, and so 604 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: it was like creating like they were like exploding basically, 605 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: these snails from being blocked up and having these really 606 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: weird growths um. And it was also starting to impact 607 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: other other animals like oysters and so it got the 608 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: attention of oyster farmers and um, I think it was 609 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: in France, in the Mediterranean in particular, where where some 610 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: of these signals started. And so it was it was 611 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: a huge problem. And they wound up having to change 612 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: the chemical compounds in the paint in order to um, 613 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, stop having this effect. And they were able 614 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: to do so, and it was able to clean up 615 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: and and the snail sort of next generation seemed to 616 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: write right there there strange parents anatomies and and the 617 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: next generation sort of was was fixed. But it it 618 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: was it was this crazy reaction again where a pollutant 619 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: that we had put into the environment was having this 620 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: bizarre effect on on the reproduction in these snails. But 621 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: the reason we were using the pollutant was to keep 622 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: things like barnacles off the bottom of the boats because 623 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: they are such a problem. That's a real sci fi 624 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: movie scenario, plague of anomalous penises. It wasn't just like 625 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: the fact that they like were blowing up, you know, exploding. 626 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: It was just like, oh man, that's a that's an 627 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: early end. So uh, I was just wondering something when 628 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: you were talking about like barnacle penises, like do we 629 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: know what drives the different kinds of strategies that that 630 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: an immobile organism could have, Like that, because some like 631 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: you talked about in the book, some immobile organisms would 632 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: just like broadcast their sex cells. Right, You could just 633 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: like release game meats into the water and hope they 634 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: get into another nearby organism. Or you could have you 635 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: could like grow a really long penis and try to 636 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: do internal fertilization on your neighbors. What what makes an 637 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,879 Speaker 1: organism choose between those two strategies. It's a really it's 638 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: a really good um. It's a really good question. So 639 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: some of some strategy is sort of quote unquote choice, 640 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: but there's also the limitations of your evolutionary history. Right. 641 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: And so with crustaceans, they tend to they have external fertilization, 642 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: but the females tend to um carry eggs around like 643 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: lobsters and crabs, right. The females hold the eggs near them. 644 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: The males have to to reach the female to fertilize 645 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: those eggs. Um, it's different than in it's it's a 646 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: different approach overall than in animals like um corals that 647 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: can broadcast spawn or sea ur chins you know similarly. 648 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: So some of it's the limitation of the fact that 649 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: that's the barnacle is a crustace shin and it's it 650 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: does not broadcast spawn um and cannot and it has 651 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: this appendage. And so the challenge was that by being 652 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: a sessile crustacean, it had to figure out how to 653 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: get that appendage to to kind of work in this strategy. 654 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: And and that's the direction evolution took um. But it 655 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: is true that across these different kinds of organisms that 656 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: don't move, we do see a whole variety, but most 657 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: of them do broadcast spawn normally. It's that there, if 658 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: you're stuck in place, you you do release your eggs 659 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: and sperm into the water, and it's about timing that release. 660 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,839 Speaker 1: Or for those animals that can move a tiny little bit, 661 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: like sear chains or abalone, they try to huddle up 662 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: um and then release into the water so that they 663 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: can try to increase the you know, the density of 664 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: their sperm and eggs. But it's a lot of it 665 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,240 Speaker 1: comes down to, you know, ultimately, what's the evolutionary baggage 666 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: that you have to work with. All Right, we're going 667 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: to take a quick break and then we'll be right 668 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: back with more of this interview. Thank alright, we're back now. 669 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: Speaking of density, one thing we could come back to 670 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: with the idea of marine gastropod sex is like density 671 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: dependent sex, the sort of the undersea orgies. Do you 672 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: want to talk about that little bit, Yeah, of course. 673 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: So it's really interesting um what we see, and we 674 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: see this actually in a couple of species that are 675 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: really popular for for seafood. So um abylone is one 676 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: um and abalone. Sometimes people get it confused and think 677 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: it's a bivalve because it does have that very flat 678 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: um shell on top. But it's a single shell and 679 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: if you look closely at it, it is that spiral. 680 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: So for those who aren't familiar, it's sort of a 681 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: a like a very gentle domed snail. They can be, 682 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, they can be bigger than than the you know, 683 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,280 Speaker 1: the palm of your hand, and they have those holes, 684 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: kind of a series of holes that come on to 685 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: the top and that's where the animal will let go 686 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: its waste and pull in um water. And they have 687 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: that beautiful the inside of their shell is um mother 688 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: of pearl. It's that lacquer that's that's sort of iridescent. 689 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: And so four centuries people have collected and eaten abalone, 690 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: and they've also collected the shell for jewelry and trade 691 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: and all sorts of things. And during the nineteen fifties, 692 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: sixties seventies off of the coast of California in particular, 693 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: abyloni were harvested in extraordinary numbers, um, just thousands of 694 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: tons of abaloni. There's there's these incredible photos of abaloni 695 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: divers like leaning up against piles, you know, mountains of 696 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: abalone shell behind them. You know, divers would take hundreds 697 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: a day um in some cases, Am I remembering this correctly? 698 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: Where to to collect one of these you would have 699 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: to flip it off the rock really quickly, and there's 700 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 1: a manger in having your your your finger like suction 701 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: to the rock by the boy. Yeah. Yeah. They they 702 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: have an incredibly strong section and in they would latch 703 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: onto rocks in the inner title where it could be 704 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: really rough. So it was a pretty precarious, um sort 705 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: of exercise to go and get them off the rocks 706 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,839 Speaker 1: and using knives to kind of try to um cut 707 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: the seal basically to try to get under there and 708 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: cut the seal, and there there were times when folks, 709 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, um, I don't remember whether folks could get 710 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: like their fingers sucked under the abalonian stuck there, but 711 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: I think it was more that you're in this really 712 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: rough environment and you're trying to get these these shells 713 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: to release and and you know, definitely could get bashed 714 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: around also as you as as the shallows got picked 715 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: um and there were fewer abalone, that's when your hard 716 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: hat divers came in, right, who would start going deeper 717 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: and deeper with these long hoses up to up to 718 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: the surface, which of course is um not the safest technique, 719 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: and they would be down there trying to hunt for 720 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: abyloni and again same thing, you know, trying to work 721 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: to get them off the rocks. And so yeah, it 722 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: was it was definitely hazardous UM. But the thing is 723 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: is we we knew at the time. Science knew that 724 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: abalone produced over one season billions of sperm and eggs. 725 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 1: They are extremely facund, right, They they just have an 726 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: incredible amount of game meats that they can release. And 727 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: so the assumption was surely an animal that's making billions 728 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: of sperm and eggs, those there's gonna be plenty of 729 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: offspring to replenish what we're taking. And abalone are single sex, 730 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: so there's male and females, and the assumption was that 731 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: they could they could handle the fishing pressure and that 732 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: there was enough out there. What wound up being, um 733 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: the case was that while there was enough total abalone, 734 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, the numbers might have been high enough, they 735 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: started to become too far apart. So science um was 736 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,720 Speaker 1: able to show, unfortunately a little bit late in the game, 737 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: that if you separate an abalone more than about a 738 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 1: meter or two, so you know, three to six ft, 739 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: which you know, really isn't that far, fertilization success goes 740 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: down drastically. And so what happened was there was this 741 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: serial depletion. So there's multiple species of Abylonian in California, 742 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: their names sort of kind of for their color, and 743 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: there's reds and pinks and greens and blacks, and then 744 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: the white abaloni and the white tended to be the 745 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: deeper ones and um, so they were hit sort of 746 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: last um, but they were also hit really hard, and 747 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: so the white Abalonie still to this day it's it 748 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: was the first invertebrate that made it onto the endangered 749 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: species list. It is still on the endangered species list, 750 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,760 Speaker 1: and it's the case that, uh, without intervention, at this point, 751 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: it is unlikely that that that that species will very 752 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,920 Speaker 1: likely go extinct. Um, there are just almost none left 753 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 1: in the wild that we can find, and so it's 754 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: a it was a one of these things where again, 755 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: density dependence isn't something that we have to worry about 756 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 1: in mammals, right, the the individual success of of the 757 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: individual sexual success does not depend on whether you're in 758 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: a small group or a highly dense group. Right, It's 759 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: just two individuals just need to get together. Um. So 760 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,880 Speaker 1: whether you're in a country town owner a big city, 761 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: your your fertilization rate doesn't change. But in many invertebrate population, 762 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: many fish populations, they need to have a critical mass 763 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: and in close enough. You know, you have to have 764 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,240 Speaker 1: your neighbors near you in order for sex to work. 765 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: And we missed that with the abalone, and so their 766 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: populations tanked and remain in pretty critical state, especially for 767 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: for the white abalone. Um. There's a good news story 768 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: though that comes with it. Do you guys want to 769 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: hear that? No? Just leave us with the bad news. No, No, 770 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,919 Speaker 1: we can't so UM, there's a an effort. UM. The 771 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: California Department of Fish and Wildlife has a white abalone 772 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: recovery plan underway and they've partnered with several different institutions, 773 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: including the Bodega Bay Marine Lab, and a wonderful woman 774 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: by the name of Kristin Naquino has been working there 775 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: for years to try to rear white abalone to raise 776 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: them UM in the lab. And so they were able 777 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,360 Speaker 1: to get a few white abalone out of the wild. 778 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,720 Speaker 1: They started a captive breeding program and at first they 779 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: had you know, fairly good success UM. So this was 780 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: back in the early two thousand's and then unfortunately, UM 781 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: a disease epidemic came through and I think it was 782 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: around two thousand and two, and it wiped out like 783 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: of all the captive bread white abalone. UM. It absolutely 784 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: decimated and they had years where they struggled to bring 785 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: the population, you know, to get their numbers back up, 786 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,800 Speaker 1: and also to keep the facilities UM clean from this disease. 787 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: It's a I don't know if it's a virus or bacteria. 788 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 1: It's called withering withering syndrome, and it's UM some sort 789 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: of you know pathogen that just rex havoc on the 790 00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: shells and and and makes it impossible. You know, the 791 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: animal eventually sort of shrivels up and and dies. And 792 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: so it took from I think it was like two 793 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: thousand two or three until I think almost ten years, 794 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,320 Speaker 1: and Kristen was one of the ones who was there 795 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: in the lab on the night that they were actually 796 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: able two for the first time, UM fertilized, get male 797 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: and female abalone to spawn, get that spawn together, UM 798 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: bring the game together and actually create fertilized embryos that 799 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: then settled into juvenile abalonies. It was like a ten 800 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: year period where there was this gap, but since then 801 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: over the last you know, five six years, you know, 802 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: it started where they got I think like twenty individuals 803 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,320 Speaker 1: the first year and then like a hundred and now 804 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: I think they're up around five eight thousand, maybe even 805 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:58,640 Speaker 1: ten thousand that they're able to produce every year. And UM, 806 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: so we've we've figured out how to how to get 807 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: them to spawn in the lab. There's all sorts of 808 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: things they need to do to control temperature and light 809 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: and sort of trick the abyaloni into thinking it's it's 810 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: go time. All the time. UM diet, you know, is 811 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: really important. So they've put an extraordinary effort into understanding 812 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: the techniques and systems that need to be in place, 813 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: and they've had UM really really good success in the 814 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,440 Speaker 1: last few years. And so fingers crossed that this continues. 815 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: UM they'll they'll be able to start out planting these 816 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 1: individuals back into the wild and the hope is to 817 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,800 Speaker 1: be able to UM sort of fill in those gaps 818 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: so that this the individuals that are still out there 819 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 1: won't be so few and far between. Well, and again 820 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,840 Speaker 1: this is with the species that that early on people 821 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: made the the the assumption that it was essentially going 822 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 1: to be like the rabbit or the rat of the 823 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,239 Speaker 1: sea as opposed to the panda of the sea. When 824 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: it came actually exactly you know again, billions billions of 825 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,359 Speaker 1: sperm and eggs, you would never think that they would 826 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: have a problem making making babies. So another thing to 827 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 1: think about as we were talking about slipper shells, but 828 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: also this pollution and the strange impacts it has is 829 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,080 Speaker 1: the ability for some of these species to change sex 830 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: depends on these chemical cues, right, That's how they're communicating. 831 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,240 Speaker 1: It's pheromones, or some sort of compound that they're releasing 832 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,360 Speaker 1: in the water that says, okay, you know it's you know, 833 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: all you juveniles out there, come stack up on me, 834 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 1: or or hey, don't transition to female. I need you 835 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: as males. Um. And so when you think about our impacts, 836 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,759 Speaker 1: and again are unexpected impacts when we put pollutants into 837 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: the environment, those those chemicals can either mess with those 838 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: signals in the sense that they can they can change 839 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,320 Speaker 1: the chemistry and make it hard for animals to read 840 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: those signals, or it's like putting something really smelly out. 841 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: They're right, and they could be masking those signals. The 842 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: other thing that can happen is and we're seeing this 843 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:11,920 Speaker 1: with ocean acidification, is so when as the climate warms, 844 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,840 Speaker 1: as we put more CO two from burning fossil fuels 845 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,759 Speaker 1: out into the atmosphere, the oceans are sucking that all up. 846 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: They're the major sink for c O two, and when 847 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,959 Speaker 1: c O two reacts with seawater, it changes the chemistry 848 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:29,240 Speaker 1: and lowers the pH So the oceans are becoming more acidic, 849 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: more towards the lemon um. Not that extreme, but it 850 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,759 Speaker 1: is the acidity is going going up. Um and the 851 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,920 Speaker 1: pH is going down. What that means is that these 852 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,160 Speaker 1: chemical messages that pass through sea water, we don't know 853 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,400 Speaker 1: how they're going to be affected because the medium, the 854 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 1: water through which they're passing that chemistry is changing and 855 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,720 Speaker 1: that's going to interact with that signal. And so there's 856 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,759 Speaker 1: all of these unknown effects of things like ocean a 857 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: cidification or chemical pollutants in the marine environment. Because they're subtle, 858 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 1: often they're dispersed at first, so they're really hard to measure. 859 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,920 Speaker 1: But what we know is that animals are highly dependent, 860 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: especially for sex, on chemical signaling um, whether it's for 861 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,960 Speaker 1: sex change, whether it's for like we see in lobsters 862 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: where females seduce really aggressive males and turn them into 863 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: gentle lovers through the power of their p sprits p 864 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: in their face and that's how they sort of seduce 865 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 1: their their mate. So these chemical signals are are critical 866 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: for successful sex and successful reproduction. And you know, pollution 867 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: and climate change are major major impacts and disruptors um 868 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,319 Speaker 1: to the chemistry of the sea, and we don't know 869 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: what kind of impacts that's going to have. Yeah, it 870 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: seems like especially in the sea, I mean, maybe it's 871 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,360 Speaker 1: not different than on the land, but it seems like, 872 00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,439 Speaker 1: especially in the sea, there's so much like delicate communication involved. Yeah, 873 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 1: it's it is, it's it's really true. You know, we're 874 00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,600 Speaker 1: very visual as humans. We're visual creatures. I mean, there 875 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,800 Speaker 1: are some weird studies though I don't know, and weird 876 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,359 Speaker 1: things have I shouldn't say weird. Um, there are some 877 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,319 Speaker 1: interesting studies and things happening. I don't know if you 878 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: guys have heard of these, um, oh gosh, what are 879 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,040 Speaker 1: they even called? Like these T shirt parties? Have you 880 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:31,359 Speaker 1: guys heard about this? Second? Now? Is this the thing 881 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:36,120 Speaker 1: where you like smell a T shirt that? Yeah, And 882 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,319 Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of them, but they're they're 883 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,040 Speaker 1: basically like singles can go out and you wear a 884 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,839 Speaker 1: T shirt for a few days, and then you bring 885 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 1: your T shirt to the party and everybody I don't 886 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: know if you're blindfolded or I guess you just don't 887 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,799 Speaker 1: know who's whose T shirt is whom. And you go 888 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,280 Speaker 1: around and you sniff T shirts and you decide which 889 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,160 Speaker 1: person you want to talk with based on which T 890 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,720 Speaker 1: shirt smell is a try it's like a smell based 891 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: speed dating kind of it is. It's smell based speed dating, 892 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 1: and so you know that is a that is a pheromone, right, 893 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 1: That's a chemical way that we're deciding what's attractive. And 894 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: you know we're a little late to the game. Lobsters 895 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: and and conk and slipper shells have been using that 896 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,480 Speaker 1: for rages. Um, I guess we're just becoming conscious of it. 897 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,799 Speaker 1: But you know it works for us too, So it 898 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: is it's it's a really important mechanism. Um. Well, yeah, 899 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: about like the chemical signals and the complexity makes me 900 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 1: think about what I was asking earlier about people only 901 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,480 Speaker 1: thinking about evolution in terms of survival and less so 902 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,000 Speaker 1: in terms of reproductive advantage. And and I wonder if 903 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,319 Speaker 1: one of the reasons for that is just like the 904 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,600 Speaker 1: visual access we have to like a chase for survival. 905 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 1: You can watch a documentary and very clearly see what's 906 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 1: happening when one organism chases and tries to catch another. 907 00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: And when you look at some kind of you reproductive 908 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,000 Speaker 1: process going on under the ocean, a lot of times 909 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like anything. You can't see it, or 910 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:11,200 Speaker 1: if you can see it, you can't understand what's going on. Yeah, absolutely, Um, 911 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,800 Speaker 1: and I think you know, like we're talking about you 912 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,879 Speaker 1: can't see, can't cannibalistic embryos swimming back and forth right 913 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:24,480 Speaker 1: inside a pregnant shark. There's so much that we we 914 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: miss even when we can see the organism. And then 915 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,760 Speaker 1: most of these organisms we just we never even see 916 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,799 Speaker 1: um or we don't know what it is we're looking at. 917 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the another great example in snails 918 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: and new to break are these hermaphrodites that are simultaneous hermaphrodites, right, 919 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 1: so rather than like the slipper shell, these are animals 920 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,520 Speaker 1: that are both have both male and female organs at 921 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,040 Speaker 1: the same time, so they produce sperm and they produce eggs. 922 00:56:54,680 --> 00:57:03,040 Speaker 1: And there's one that in particular is is really unique 923 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,879 Speaker 1: in that as far as we know, as far as 924 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,720 Speaker 1: I know, um, it's the only animal that has a disposable, 925 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 1: regrowable penis. So it's like a penis pez dispenser. Okay, 926 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:23,800 Speaker 1: so um it's It's basically what happens is there two 927 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: individuals will kind of come up to one another, and 928 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,439 Speaker 1: they'll sort of feel along each other's edge and they'll 929 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,080 Speaker 1: actually explore the genital opening on each other, and then 930 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,560 Speaker 1: they will turn to face in opposite directions and line up, 931 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,080 Speaker 1: and then they will simultaneously insert each of them will 932 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: insert their penis into the other snail um into their 933 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:53,520 Speaker 1: opening in deposit sperm. So it's like a mutual reciprocal 934 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: meeting and it all seems very civilized and great takes. 935 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,680 Speaker 1: It takes a little bit for to happen, and then 936 00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: the two animals will start to pull apart, and the 937 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,320 Speaker 1: penis is like basically they just like stretch like two 938 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,360 Speaker 1: rubber bands between the animals, and they stretch and they stretch, 939 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:12,800 Speaker 1: and they stretch and they stretch, and then they just 940 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:17,439 Speaker 1: sort of like pop out. And so then the each 941 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 1: snail has like they're like it's kind of like you 942 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: know when you when you were a little and used 943 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,200 Speaker 1: to play with slinkies and then the slinkies got really 944 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 1: stretched and they never kind of bounced back. It's kind 945 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,160 Speaker 1: of like that, right, They've got this like long extended 946 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,760 Speaker 1: ballast that's dragging behind them that they can no longer 947 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 1: like recoil, so they just drop it and within a 948 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,640 Speaker 1: day the next penis is ready to go. It's like 949 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 1: they have to. I think it's like two or three 950 00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,280 Speaker 1: backups um and for two to three days, they can mate, 951 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:48,600 Speaker 1: they can make they can mate, and then they have 952 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,919 Speaker 1: to take a longer break for it to regenerate. But 953 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,960 Speaker 1: what researchers found was while this all looked like very like, 954 00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: i don't know, civilized, sort of a fair kind of um, 955 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, mutual mating, it turns out that part of 956 00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,880 Speaker 1: the reasons why they have to drop the penis and 957 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,800 Speaker 1: they can't pull it back inside their own bodies is 958 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,200 Speaker 1: because if you look under a microscope, the heads of 959 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: the penis are covered with these like hooks, the sharp, 960 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,520 Speaker 1: thorny hooks. And what happens is when they insert into 961 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: their mate, they let go a stream of sperm that 962 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,560 Speaker 1: can kind of like flush to the front deep inside 963 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,880 Speaker 1: the animal, into their mate, and then they pull with 964 00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,400 Speaker 1: these hooks back out. And while they may grab some 965 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,000 Speaker 1: of their own sperm, what they're doing is trying to 966 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:45,520 Speaker 1: like clean out and get rid of any previous sperm 967 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,800 Speaker 1: deposits from a different mating event, and so they kind 968 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:53,360 Speaker 1: of scrape the inside out. And because of that, yeah, 969 00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,920 Speaker 1: it's pretty it's you know, kind of early, but because 970 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: of that, they don't want to retract that back inside 971 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,800 Speaker 1: their own body, right, because that's that's just not gonna 972 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,760 Speaker 1: turn out well, so they just drop it and grow another. 973 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,920 Speaker 1: So it's really but you would have no idea if 974 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 1: you saw these two you know, pretty colored neuter braak 975 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:18,320 Speaker 1: kind of sitting next to one another hanging out that 976 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,760 Speaker 1: that's what we're going on. You can't you can't see it, 977 01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,880 Speaker 1: and you have no idea that you know a few 978 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,720 Speaker 1: hours later they'd regrow their penis. It's yeah, you're right, 979 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,000 Speaker 1: it's not stuff we can see. So, um, that's why 980 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,400 Speaker 1: we need more science and we need more scientists, and 981 01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,440 Speaker 1: we need more funding to support this kind of just 982 01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:40,640 Speaker 1: basic research. Um, because it's fascinating and it matters for 983 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:46,040 Speaker 1: how how these animals are surviving. And you know, in 984 01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:51,160 Speaker 1: some cases these are you know, abalone was a major industry, 985 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,360 Speaker 1: It was a major food supply. It was devastating when 986 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,440 Speaker 1: that fishery collapsed. Um, we see something similar happening in 987 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:03,400 Speaker 1: the Bahamas right now with cons iconic giant snail that 988 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:07,440 Speaker 1: you know the um you blow on the shell and 989 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,280 Speaker 1: it makes that beautiful like kind of um loud honking 990 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:17,280 Speaker 1: sound to call it. Yeah. So so there are these 991 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 1: are really large gastropods. They can grow over a foot 992 01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: and a half. They can live up to twenty years, 993 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 1: maybe even longer. UM. But again, even though they're not 994 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: broadcast spawners UM. So they again, the male has a 995 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:39,400 Speaker 1: penis that it it has to insert into the into 996 01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,400 Speaker 1: the female underneath her shell. UM. It's called the verge. 997 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,560 Speaker 1: The penis is called the verge, which I think is 998 01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,920 Speaker 1: such a cool sexy name. UM. But you know, they 999 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:50,600 Speaker 1: have these huge shells that they kind of have to 1000 01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,480 Speaker 1: heft around, and so it takes a lot of energy 1001 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,680 Speaker 1: to move if you're a conk. And so they do 1002 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 1: group up and then they kind of all just like 1003 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,920 Speaker 1: go around and sort of mate. And so again they 1004 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,920 Speaker 1: need that density. They need enough conk near enough to 1005 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,240 Speaker 1: one another that they can have enough mating events. And 1006 01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,840 Speaker 1: what they're finding is that in in places the conk 1007 01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,520 Speaker 1: have been over fished and even though there may be 1008 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:18,360 Speaker 1: enough conk you know, over a certain area in terms 1009 01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:22,160 Speaker 1: of number, they're not close enough together. They're not finding 1010 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,560 Speaker 1: each other or there's not enough of them huddling up. 1011 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,600 Speaker 1: And they're starting to see some some really um strong 1012 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:33,600 Speaker 1: signals that the recruitment so the next generations, the numbers 1013 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:37,200 Speaker 1: of of juveniles, it's going down. And so it's it's 1014 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:42,040 Speaker 1: a really big problem um in in one that would 1015 01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:47,200 Speaker 1: affect you know, food security, it affects um you know, livelihoods. 1016 01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,880 Speaker 1: So it's not just I mean, they're great tales to tell, UM, 1017 01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,480 Speaker 1: but there's a reason, especially for me. You know, the 1018 01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,560 Speaker 1: reason why I care about this topic and why I'm 1019 01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,560 Speaker 1: I'm so passionate about it is because it matters UM 1020 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,640 Speaker 1: in a very selfish way. It matters back for our 1021 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,520 Speaker 1: own um our own benefit as as people UM in 1022 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:13,120 Speaker 1: the communities that depend on on these fisheries. We depend 1023 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,520 Speaker 1: on the delicate balance of marine ecosystems for the for 1024 01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 1: the food we eat, in the air we breathe, right, yeah, yeah, 1025 01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:22,320 Speaker 1: and the cool chemical compounds. You know, we've talked a 1026 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,560 Speaker 1: lot about that, but you know there are trials right 1027 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,600 Speaker 1: now for an anti cancer compounds, compounds, medicinals that are 1028 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:36,120 Speaker 1: helping fight uh, neurological disorders, heart disease, all all coming 1029 01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:41,960 Speaker 1: from marine organisms. And you know, it's a wealth of 1030 01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,000 Speaker 1: resources that we we've barely begun to tap. So yeah, absolutely, 1031 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:48,720 Speaker 1: all right, Well, it looks like we're about out of 1032 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:50,880 Speaker 1: time here, but thanks for coming on the show again 1033 01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,200 Speaker 1: and chatting with this Mora it's been so great to 1034 01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:57,480 Speaker 1: get to meet you. Oh sorry, it's been great to 1035 01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,000 Speaker 1: get to meet meet you too, Joe and Robert. It's 1036 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,360 Speaker 1: always such a pleasure. I love talking with you guys, 1037 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:06,320 Speaker 1: and I mean you guys just cover the best stuff. 1038 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,080 Speaker 1: I love getting on a show and you're talking about 1039 01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,439 Speaker 1: so we were talking about Barnacle penis Is the other day. 1040 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,400 Speaker 1: I don't I don't get to have this kind of 1041 01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,120 Speaker 1: connection with with a lot of folks, So I'm always 1042 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,400 Speaker 1: up for it. Now, if our listeners want to want 1043 01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:19,120 Speaker 1: to connect with you and learn more about what you're 1044 01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,640 Speaker 1: up to. Your your website is sex in the Sea 1045 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:25,600 Speaker 1: dot org, and that has your blog on their details 1046 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,560 Speaker 1: about upcoming appearances. And then of course the book itself. 1047 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:33,560 Speaker 1: Sex in the Sea is available in like every format. Absolutely. 1048 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,560 Speaker 1: We got it's on audible, we got e books, we 1049 01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,040 Speaker 1: got hardbacks, paperbacks, and you can get it pretty much, 1050 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, online or in your local bookstore. Makes a 1051 01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:46,880 Speaker 1: great gift heading into Valentine's Day for anybody out there 1052 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: looking for perfect science Valentine's Day gift. Yeah, you can 1053 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,040 Speaker 1: be you can be sex slightly sexy, I guess you 1054 01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:59,520 Speaker 1: could say. All right, So there you have it. Thanks 1055 01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,120 Speaker 1: again to Dr mar J Hart for coming on the 1056 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,360 Speaker 1: show and chatting with us once more about the weird, 1057 01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,840 Speaker 1: wild world of marine reproduction. Now, just one more reminder, 1058 01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,040 Speaker 1: Dr Maurra Hart will be giving a talk in the 1059 01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,800 Speaker 1: Denver Museum of Nature and Science on Valentine's Day this 1060 01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 1: year February nineteen. If you're in the Denver area, you 1061 01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,040 Speaker 1: should look into that. It's going to be a cool 1062 01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:26,560 Speaker 1: event with cocktails, apps, book talk and signing. If I 1063 01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:28,680 Speaker 1: was nearby, I would not miss it for the world. Now, 1064 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,120 Speaker 1: if you want to listen to any of the other 1065 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,720 Speaker 1: episodes in which we talked with Maura, head on over 1066 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,880 Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where 1067 01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 1: you'll find all the episodes of the podcast. But I'll 1068 01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,480 Speaker 1: make sure that on the landing page for this episode 1069 01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,920 Speaker 1: we linked to those older episodes as well, so you 1070 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,280 Speaker 1: can look those up. We also, of course, have a 1071 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,240 Speaker 1: have a place on the website where you can click 1072 01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:49,360 Speaker 1: on our store you can check out some cool merchandise options. 1073 01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,520 Speaker 1: But if you another great way, perhaps the best way 1074 01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,360 Speaker 1: to support the show is to simply rate and review 1075 01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,600 Speaker 1: us wherever you have the power to do so, and 1076 01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,880 Speaker 1: make sure you are subscribed to Have to Blow Your Mind, 1077 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,680 Speaker 1: and while you're at it, go ahead and subscribe to 1078 01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,880 Speaker 1: Invention as well. That's our other show. Absolutely, if you 1079 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:08,360 Speaker 1: like stuff to blow your mind, you'll like Invention two. 1080 01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,880 Speaker 1: We almost guarantee it. We're pretty confident. You go over there, 1081 01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,440 Speaker 1: you check it out, you click subscribe, you'll be happy. 1082 01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 1: We'll be happy. It's a great thing to do anyway, 1083 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:21,400 Speaker 1: huge thanks to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and 1084 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,080 Speaker 1: Tori Harrison. If you would like to get in touch 1085 01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:26,760 Speaker 1: with us directly with feedback on this episode or any other, 1086 01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,240 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic or a guest for the future, 1087 01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:31,160 Speaker 1: or just to say hi, let us know how you 1088 01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,200 Speaker 1: found out about the show where you listen from all 1089 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,640 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, you can email us at blow 1090 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:48,120 Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com for more 1091 01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,440 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 1092 01:06:50,480 --> 01:07:08,800 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Bastard four part Proper