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Speaker 1: Music saved me to be This is just this is neurology.

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Speaker 1: You know, somebody can tell me it's okay that you're

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Speaker 1: going through a season of depression right now, and that

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Speaker 1: can be powerful if I hear someone telling me that.

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Speaker 1: But there's also beautiful music that's happening at the same time.

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Speaker 1: It sort of puts it on steroids, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better term.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lynn Hoffman and welcome to the Music Save Me podcast,

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Speaker 2: the podcast where we talk with musicians about their personal

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Speaker 2: stories that transform into their powerful music. Music Save Me

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Speaker 2: is also a proud supporter of musicians on call. On

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Speaker 2: this episode, we are so happy to have singer songwriter

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Speaker 2: William Fitzsimmons, who definitely knows a thing or two about

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Speaker 2: the healing and transformative powers of music. He has some

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Speaker 2: great new music out that we'll get to as well

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Speaker 2: as talk about how music affected him and in essence,

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Speaker 2: transformed his life. William Fitzsimmons, Welcome to Music Save Me.

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Speaker 2: It's so great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful to be here. Thanks, Lynn.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're not only an incredible talented musician and songwriter

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Speaker 2: and engineer and producer, but you also have which I

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Speaker 2: find so incredibly interesting. A master's degree in mental health therapy,

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Speaker 2: and prior to your successful career in music, you worked

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Speaker 2: as a mental health therapist. So that makes you just

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Speaker 2: about the most perfect guest for this show that I

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Speaker 2: could get. So my first question to you is do

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Speaker 2: you believe that music has healing powers?

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Speaker 1: It'd be crazy if I said no, right now, right,

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Speaker 1: and then well see you guys, letter, I really do yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I never I was not a music therapist. I

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Speaker 1: worked with music therapist. I did impatient for about five

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Speaker 1: years in Camden, New Jersey, and we would occasionally have

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Speaker 1: music therapist that would come in and I thought it

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Speaker 1: was fascinating. But at that point I had never put

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Speaker 1: the two together in anything more than just an experiential way.

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Speaker 1: Music my entire life was a healing force. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it in a professional manner, but I

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Speaker 1: always knew that in my personal life it was wildly transformative.

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Speaker 2: When did you realize that it was a huge part

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Speaker 2: of your calling in life? And did your unique childhood

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Speaker 2: upbringing have anything to do with it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, of course, I mean I think so. My

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Speaker 1: parents are both blind. There I'm supposed to say visually disabled,

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Speaker 1: but they stay blind, so I feel like I can

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Speaker 1: probably stay blind to And the thing that I realized

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Speaker 1: of being a peripheral part of that community of watching

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Speaker 1: my parents and the organizations they were part of and

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Speaker 1: their friends, is that music. It was like this. It

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Speaker 1: was like a leveling force where like my dad is

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Speaker 1: an amazing organist, wonderful organ player, he just doesn't need

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Speaker 1: his eyes. It would be lovely if he could, you know,

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Speaker 1: when he's when he's learning a new bach piece or something.

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Speaker 1: If he could site read it, that'd be great. But

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Speaker 1: to actually experience to play music, to sing a song

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Speaker 1: with somebody else, you just don't need to see to

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Speaker 1: do that. And so in our family that was one

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Speaker 1: of the very few things that we could fully connect

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Speaker 1: on and be in the same level. So I think

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Speaker 1: even as a kid, you know, not like not being

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Speaker 1: able to have eye contact with my mom as like

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Speaker 1: a toddler, which you don't know it when you're three

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Speaker 1: or four, but you feel it, you know. But she

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Speaker 1: would sing like John Denver songs to me and I

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Speaker 1: would start sing them with her, and so there was

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Speaker 1: no disconnect at that point. So I had the understanding

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Speaker 1: of how connect at the very least how connecting music

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Speaker 1: can be. And it's cheesy, but it actually brings people together.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the few things that can do that

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Speaker 1: in a really powerful way.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's cheesy at all.

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Speaker 2: Think it's incredible and what a skill to be given

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Speaker 2: to you at such a young age and you didn't

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Speaker 2: even realize the extent of.

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Speaker 1: Well idea, Yeah, it was just something really special. That's

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Speaker 1: why I didn't think of it as a as a job,

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Speaker 1: you know. I was like, well, no, of course, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to play music, that's what you know. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be that annoying the guy with the acoustic guitar

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Speaker 1: and college campus like singing wonderwall, like trying to get

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Speaker 1: all the girls to come over and listen to them, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, with the puppy and the guitar case.

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Speaker 1: I maybe that's why I didn't work that well, that

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Speaker 1: would have been well.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've read that you'd once said about your

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Speaker 2: job description as a musician that that pretty much you

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Speaker 2: have to write about the hard shit and nothing's off

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Speaker 2: limits in your private life. What allows you to be

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Speaker 2: so profoundly open about the personal aspects of your life.

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Speaker 1: It's how my mom has always been where nothing really

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Speaker 1: was off limits and like even to an uncomfortable level.

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Speaker 1: So I had that education pretty young where you know,

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Speaker 1: she when when my parents split up and we stayed,

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Speaker 1: my mom had full custody. She's a very open emotional person,

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Speaker 1: and for better or worse, that was kind of the

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Speaker 1: That was the experience that I That was the modal

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Speaker 1: experience that I had of encountering emotions was being fully

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Speaker 1: free to talk about like I'm angry, I'm sad. You know.

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Speaker 1: It was that and frankly just the training for being

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Speaker 1: a therapist. If if you're unwilling to sit in a

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Speaker 1: room with somebody and then literally described like the darkest,

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Speaker 1: most difficult stuff, you're never going to make it. So

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Speaker 1: it's really sink or swim like that. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: one thing when you're doing you're in grad school and

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Speaker 1: you're practicing with your your peers and they're making up

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Speaker 1: problems they have, and then all of a sudden, you're

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Speaker 1: in your internship and someone is weeping and they're talking

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Speaker 1: about a parent that died, like you have to. You

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Speaker 1: either can show up and sit with them in that pain,

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Speaker 1: or it's time to find a new job. So it

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Speaker 1: really I don't give myself much credit for it. That's

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Speaker 1: just the experiences that I had, And I was ready

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Speaker 1: when I started writing my own songs, like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about you know, boring, ineffectual stuff like

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Speaker 1: to me, the fund's not the right word. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about the really hard stuff because that's where

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Speaker 1: I saw the most change and the most reward for

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Speaker 1: everybody in the room.

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Speaker 2: I mean, to some degree, we all sort of struggle

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Speaker 2: in our own ways with so many similar things, but

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Speaker 2: nobody really ever talks about it. So combined talking about

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Speaker 2: it with music, I would imagine that would probably be

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Speaker 2: like the pinnacle of Yeah, just later all out there

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Speaker 2: and connecting with people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well there's good, there's good stalts. Right, the whole

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Speaker 1: is greater than the some of its parts. And that's

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Speaker 1: you know, music, film, like any multi modal kind of

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Speaker 1: art form. I think it the more modes that you

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Speaker 1: have in there, the better you're able to bypass the

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Speaker 1: frontal lobe, because to be this is just this is neurology.

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Speaker 1: You know, somebody can tell me, you know, it's okay

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Speaker 1: that you're going through a season of depression right now

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Speaker 1: and that can be powerful if I hear someone telling

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Speaker 1: me that, But there's also beautiful music that's happening at

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Speaker 1: the same time. I just I think it's like it's

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Speaker 1: it sort of puts it on steroids, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better term, and I just think it goes right

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Speaker 1: in and your your defense mechanisms have a lot of

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Speaker 1: difficulty fighting it because you just you know, you listen

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Speaker 1: to a song and you start crying right and you

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Speaker 1: have no idea why that. That to me, that's the

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Speaker 1: strength that music has. I think it can get deeper quicker.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about your new project, Incidental Contact, and

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Speaker 2: in particular your stepmom, who I'm sorry to hear.

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Speaker 3: That passed away. How did that impact you and your music?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I it's you have to be careful with

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Speaker 1: some of these things that you write about. I remember

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Speaker 1: there was one I did a I did a piece

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, like a long form interview about

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Speaker 1: my third record that was about my first divorce. Can't

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Speaker 1: I have to have to count on my fingers which

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Speaker 1: one it is? And I'm just kidding kind of, and

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Speaker 1: like everything was overwhelming and positive. There was great feedback

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Speaker 1: on it, but there was one comment, which that that's

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Speaker 1: why I learned never to read internet comments where I

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Speaker 1: was like, what a what a disgrace? Two to make

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Speaker 1: money off of this? You know, this this painful like experience.

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Speaker 1: And I'm old enough now or I can look at

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Speaker 1: that and be like, oh that I see that person's

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Speaker 1: point and that's the react they had and for some

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Speaker 1: reason they were put off by it, and that's okay,

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Speaker 1: Like I have room for that. I felt like my

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Speaker 1: intentions were pretty pure, so I wasn't overly bothered by it,

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Speaker 1: but for you know, a day or two. But all

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Speaker 1: that to say, when Vicky, when my stepmom died, it

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Speaker 1: was a really big surprise. And writing is just that

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Speaker 1: that tends to be the tool that I've developed to

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Speaker 1: figure stuff out. It's really very similar to journaling, which

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Speaker 1: which I do on and off as well. That my

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Speaker 1: therapist got me into that years ago, but I had

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Speaker 1: already been doing that with writing songs. It just it

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Speaker 1: just helped me get stuff out that maybe I was

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Speaker 1: having trouble figuring out, like what am I actually feeling

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Speaker 1: right now? Am I angry? You know? Am I guilty

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Speaker 1: for maybe things that were left unseat or undone? And

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Speaker 1: so writing those songs. Really was just about okay, the

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Speaker 1: we're in grief right now, let's start, let's start walking

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Speaker 1: through it. What do we do, Let's sit at the

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Speaker 1: piano and see what comes out. It was really that

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Speaker 1: it was that simple, and you know, it didn't fix everything,

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Speaker 1: but I think it got me like to the next

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Speaker 1: stage where I could start figuring out what was next.

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Speaker 2: So many people are not fortunate enough to have people

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Speaker 2: in their lives to talk to, so having that skill

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Speaker 2: is is huge.

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Speaker 1: I'd be nicer. Mental health was not something that we

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Speaker 1: had to pay exorbit at fees for. That's a different conversation.

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Speaker 2: But something that you said right before, what you just

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Speaker 2: said too, I mean, it hits me even you know

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Speaker 2: where we're sitting here trying to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 2: what is it about music that helps people so much

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Speaker 2: and also helps the people who create it, not just

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Speaker 2: the people who consume it or listen to it. And

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Speaker 2: where do you draw that line of feeling like you're

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Speaker 2: capitalizing for a better word off of someone's pain when

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Speaker 2: it actually is.

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Speaker 3: Really coming from your heart. You're not.

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Speaker 2: You don't do it for other reasons other than to

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Speaker 2: help those listening in yourself.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm just trying to buy a boat. I figured

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Speaker 1: the the best way to make money in music and

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Speaker 1: buy a boat is writing really really sad folk music.

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Speaker 1: And I nailed it. You know, the feedback that I

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Speaker 1: got really early on when I wasn't even doing this,

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Speaker 1: you know as a career I was. I just bought

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Speaker 1: a really cheat it. I went to Guitar Center. I

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Speaker 1: had a little bit of money from like Christmas and

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Speaker 1: birthday saved up when I was in grad school, and

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Speaker 1: I went and bought this little little recording box and

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Speaker 1: a really cheap microphone. Because that I had always wanted

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Speaker 1: to record music. I used to do a thing where

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Speaker 1: my parents had the Hi Fi system, and you would

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Speaker 1: my mom had a little radio shack mic and you

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Speaker 1: could record yourself singing, and then you'd put that tape

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Speaker 1: in the in the stereo, put a new tape in

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Speaker 1: the recorder, and you were multi tracking.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I was so fast, and I was like, this is

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Speaker 1: the coolest thing ever. But the feedback that I got

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Speaker 1: really early on from those songs was really really powerful stuff. Literally,

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Speaker 1: people were like, you know this this I'm going through

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Speaker 1: a divorce right now or a lot of like death.

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Speaker 1: Death was a big bit because I wrote about that

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Speaker 1: early on. You know, my father died a year ago

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Speaker 1: and this song really helped me. Oh, I never really

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Speaker 1: I never looked back after that. I was like, well, clearly,

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Speaker 1: even if other people are put off by it, the

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Speaker 1: great majority of people that are talking to me are

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Speaker 1: saying that's helping them. So if it's helping me get

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Speaker 1: stuff out, and if it's helping them feel less alone,

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Speaker 1: then that's a that's just a win, right, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: Your music is described as inward looking, of course what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about. Can you tell us how you feel

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Speaker 2: when you visually see and feel people reacting in a

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Speaker 2: positive way to your music? How does how does it

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Speaker 2: make you feel?

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Speaker 1: It's great, It's it's so great. You have to like,

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Speaker 1: you have to check your ego, you know, And I

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Speaker 1: really do like performing. It's it's wonderful. It's one I

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Speaker 1: feel so happy and comfortable on a stage. And part

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Speaker 1: of that is just we like the things that we

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Speaker 1: believe we're good at, and I think I'm half way

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Speaker 1: decent at doing that. But no, it's really start. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've seen people sing along and cry and go through

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Speaker 1: a whole host of emotions. And that's I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: it's incredible. But you know, I also had to temper

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Speaker 1: that early on too, because you really do, you start

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Speaker 1: to feel like you're real important. I can help people

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Speaker 1: go through emotion that's dangerous. Even as a therapist, like

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Speaker 1: you have to recognize it's not you, you know, you you're

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Speaker 1: you're essentially just reflecting back what they're going through and

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Speaker 1: helping them move a little forward. There's no you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a magician or something. So I do love it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie, but I always like, I always

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Speaker 1: like the grounding experience of like having somebody that's just

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Speaker 1: looking at their phone while I'm singing about like the

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Speaker 1: biggest heartbreak of my life and they could give two

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Speaker 1: craps about what's happening. That's actually kind of beautiful too,

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Speaker 1: because you're like, dude, you're just a dude up here

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Speaker 1: with the guitar. Man.

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Speaker 2: Calm down, you know, keeping it real's that's very important.

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Speaker 2: But you know, and speaking of that, though, why do

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Speaker 2: you think it is so hard for people to look inward?

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Speaker 2: And you know, and the better way of putting it is,

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Speaker 2: why do you think it's so hard for people to

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Speaker 2: be able to laugh at themselves.

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Speaker 1: It hurts, it's scary. There's a lot more fun stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like there's really funny TV shows,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's like there's cal zones, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, And those things are so much more fun.

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Speaker 3: Did you know cal zones?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's my favorite food. I was gonna say, that's

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Speaker 1: that's my bingo card. It's not fun. Nobody wants to

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Speaker 1: even for me, which I really like. I enjoy being

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Speaker 1: emotional as like ask my wife, you know, it's one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite things. Oh, here's another deep conversation. It's

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Speaker 1: it's just because it's hard. It doesn't it doesn't feel good,

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Speaker 1: you know. It's it's like listening to I would like

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Speaker 1: more challenging me, like a Radiohead record. It feels amazing,

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Speaker 1: but it's so good and it's complicated that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: always feel like handy on the first listen, Right, It's

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Speaker 1: like a really good meal that it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: of time to digest. So yeah, I don't fault anybody

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Speaker 1: that I tend to think that people that are like

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Speaker 1: really put off by my music are you know, they

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Speaker 1: might just not be ready to experience or they just

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Speaker 1: hate it. But that's fine too. You know, people have

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Speaker 1: a different preparedness, different readiness. You know, I would never recommend,

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Speaker 1: for example, somebody do therapy if they're not ready for it.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's just gonna be a waste of time

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Speaker 1: and money. There has to be like a little spark

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Speaker 1: of Okay, this thing happened, I'm ready to start thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. Well.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting if I look back across your career,

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Speaker 2: you've been making people feel even before you became a

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Speaker 2: known musician, just doing scores for television shows and creating

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Speaker 2: that emotional transition for things that we were seeing on television.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, like little shows like what was it Gray's.

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Speaker 2: Anatomy, And you've been around doing stuff even behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes that people wouldn't even know besides helping them therapeutically

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Speaker 2: and now with your music, which is pretty incredible stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I mentioned before, I always loved you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a big Wes Anderson fan, so Royal Tannenbaum's Rushmore,

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Speaker 1: Grand Budapest Hotel, all those, and what an absolute genius

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Speaker 1: at at using music too to really highlight what's happening emotionally,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's a there's a there's a scene

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Speaker 1: when in Royal Tannetbombs when Gwyneth Paltrow's character is walking

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Speaker 1: off a bus and it's the it's a Jackson Brown

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Speaker 1: song these days, but it was covered by I believe

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Speaker 1: it was Nico that covered it and she's walking off

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Speaker 1: the bus in slow motion and like I just remember

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Speaker 1: seeing that, like ah, like that's the I understand exactly

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Speaker 1: what Richie, what Luke Wilson's character is feeling. And that

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Speaker 1: song with like if you change the song or if

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Speaker 1: you put no music on there, it just doesn't hit

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Speaker 1: the same way. So I always love them. My music

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Speaker 1: is is it even when it's on like Jersey Shore

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Speaker 1: or something like that, which which has happened before. It's

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Speaker 1: cool it. It's helping to convey something that would be

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Speaker 1: difficult to do just with with words or visuals alone.

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Speaker 2: I think, oh yeah, I think all picture is nothing

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Speaker 2: without the music. I mean, picture can be powerful, but

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Speaker 2: the music really just just take me to that next level.

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Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, I agree, Yeah, I agree with you.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a snob, but not.

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Speaker 1: To say that, not to say that there are you know,

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Speaker 1: wildly powerful images that stand completely on their own of course,

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Speaker 1: like a you know, it doesn't have to be a musical.

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Speaker 1: There's plays that are just life changing, you know. But

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Speaker 1: for for me, you know, I like when I always

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Speaker 1: like when there's music happening too.

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Speaker 2: What do you what songs in particular during those challenging

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Speaker 2: times depression, divorce, death, we've talked about all of it

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Speaker 2: when you were going through those things in your life,

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Speaker 2: do you remember specific artists or bands that you turn to?

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Speaker 2: And on the flip side of that, how would you

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Speaker 2: suggest others utilize music to help them through challenging times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got It's been different at different stages. I

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Speaker 1: remember David Wilcox who not never got like a huge

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Speaker 1: which is a great injustice. He's an American singer, songwriter,

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Speaker 1: incredible guitar player, and really like upfront sentimental. I think

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why maybe he never you know,

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Speaker 1: completely blew up is because for some reason, sentimentality and

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Speaker 1: music is it hasn't been in vogue for a long time,

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Speaker 1: Like in the you know, I was thinking, like John Denver,

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Speaker 1: who's one of my favorites of Annie's song you fill

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Speaker 1: up my senses like Night in the Forest, like, you can't.

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Speaker 1: You can't say that anymore. You can, but I think

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Speaker 1: people are like, uh, it's cringey or something. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's fine, but yet David Wilcox was one very early

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Speaker 1: on in in high school. A friend shared his music

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Speaker 1: with me, and I was a real rough go in

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Speaker 1: high school. I developed an eating disorder. I was really

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Speaker 1: depressed and it was it was it was a rough

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Speaker 1: rough patch. And there was one song in particular, it

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Speaker 1: was called hold It Up to the Light, and it's

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Speaker 1: about spirituality, and we don't have to go in on that,

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Speaker 1: but there was something about it that just made me

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Speaker 1: feel like, regardless of what's happening right now, things are

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Speaker 1: going to be okay later. Will Cox has always been

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Speaker 1: like a go to if there's a hard moment. Another

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Speaker 1: another big one for my last divorce record that I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I would have got through without it. It

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Speaker 1: was Mental Illness by Amy Mann, which which I think

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Speaker 1: she she finally won her first Grammy for, and that

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Speaker 1: record is well, that's a hard one to listen to,

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Speaker 1: but she's got a song on there called You Never

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Speaker 1: Loved Me, and that just that chorus, that that hook

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Speaker 1: helped me feel like it was okay to be angry

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Speaker 1: about what was happening. So no, I've got like a rolodex.

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Speaker 1: It's not that large, but of artists that kind of

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Speaker 1: depending on what I'm feeling, it's like, Okay, here's the prescription,

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Speaker 1: here's the pill, you know, And I mean, honestly, I

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Speaker 1: as far as how people get it, there's a million

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Speaker 1: different ways. But for me, I like to ask friends,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, what are they listening to? What's something

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Speaker 1: that's been really meaningful to you that you've heard in

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Speaker 1: the last year or something. Those are great conversations and

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Speaker 1: that's how I wouldn't have found David Wilcox. I probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have found Nick Drake, Soufie and Stevens, artists that

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Speaker 1: have become my like just lifetime favorites.

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Speaker 2: What would you say if you ever got to meet them?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've gotten to me a couple folks that

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Speaker 1: I would I would say are heroes. And I kept

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Speaker 1: it real, chill. I just said very point like when

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Speaker 1: I met I met Ben Gibberd a death cab for

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Speaker 1: Cutie and I'm a really big fan of his and

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Speaker 1: I just I walked up and I said, Ben, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to bother you. I just wanted you to

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Speaker 1: know that Plans is a really really important record for me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for thanks for making that And he said thanks,

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Speaker 1: and I walked away. I don't want to bug anybody.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's probably heard that a few million times,

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Speaker 1: but I think I would just say thank you.

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Speaker 3: Would you?

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Speaker 2: I think it's interesting for people to hear that, because

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Speaker 2: it takes a lot to walk up to somebody that

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Speaker 2: you look up to like that, especially someone who's famous

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Speaker 2: or that you listen to their music, And it's nice

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Speaker 2: to know that that you do that too with other

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Speaker 2: people in your industry, and for people to share that,

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Speaker 2: because we are all human, it's not it's important, and

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Speaker 2: especially if someone's helping you to heal, why wouldn't you

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Speaker 2: want to take that opportunity to thank them and tell them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the day that, the day that I stop

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Speaker 1: being a fan of music, I probably have no business

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Speaker 1: writing songs anymore, because then what am I doing? You know? Yeah? No,

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Speaker 1: I god no. There have been a lot of artists.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's Soufion Stevens. Like I said, he's probably

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Speaker 1: probably my favorite ever I think at this point, and

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Speaker 1: his music's gotten me through a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Well, William Fitzimmons, you have to keep I could talk

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Speaker 2: to you for hours. Just keep making that incredible medicine

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Speaker 2: called music that you do. And thank you for all

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Speaker 2: of that powerful music that you put out there. And

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Speaker 2: I hope everyone takes a listen. William fitz Simmons, your

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Speaker 2: new album is Incidental Contact and it's out now. And

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for being on Music Save Me

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Speaker 2: and helping us try to figure out what it is

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Speaker 2: exactly about music that helps us all so much.

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Speaker 3: And I hope you come back again soon.

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Speaker 1: I would love to thank you so much