1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised, so. 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: He turns into a sort of horribly compelling character and 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: one who certainly behaved in the most appalling way. 4 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 6 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 10 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 11 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 12 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 13 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. This week on Wicked Words, 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: we're traveling to eighteen fifty six, Ireland for a locked 15 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: door mystery. A cashier for a Dublin railway station is 16 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: found dead, savagely beaten. Nothing appears to be stolen. Can 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: an experienced detective crack this case. Author Thomas Morris tells 18 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: us the story in his new book The Dublin Railway Murder. 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: The sensational true story of a Victorian murder mystery. Tell 20 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: me how you came to write this book. Where did 21 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: you discover this story? 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: Well, I came across this story in a slightly unusual 23 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: sideways fashion, which is that before I wrote this book, 24 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: I really had no intention of writing a true crime 25 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: book at all. But what I was writing about a 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: lot was the history of medicine. My first book was 27 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: History of Cardiac Surgery, and after that I wrote a 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: slightly more kind of frivolous book, which was based on 29 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: the lots of stories I'd come across during two or 30 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: three years research. And what I found was that when 31 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: I looked through medical journals for material I was using 32 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: for the heart surgery book, there were these strange little stories, 33 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: case studies, case histories of patients who got into strange 34 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: difficulties or been treated in unusual ways. And I collected 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: a lot of this material and it formed the basis 36 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: of my second book. So for quite a long period, 37 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: I was constantly looking into old medical journals between about 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: the dates of about sort of seventeen fifty nineteen hundred, 39 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: that sort of era, mainly the nineteenth century, and a 40 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: lot of this stuff I would just sort of squirrel 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: away for future use, and sometimes I thought it might 42 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: turn into a slightly bigger project. And one of the 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: stories I came across and didn't actually return to for 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: a good two years was a single page report in 45 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: an English medical journal about a court case that was 46 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: then going on in Ireland. It was a court report 47 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: which was only included in a medical journal because there 48 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: were some medical evidence that was submitted. It wasn't actually 49 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: very interesting as medical evidence goes, but when I read 50 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: the page, I thought, actually, this sounded quite an interesting story. 51 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: And the bit of it in particular that I was 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: interested in was the fact that this court report was 53 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: a murder trial. It was the murder of a clerk 54 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: in an Irish railway station in Dublin in eighteen fifty six, 55 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 2: and that day's evidence had discussed the ways in which 56 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: the murderer might have got in and out of the room, 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 2: whether the victim was killed, And just reading that one 58 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: paragraph about this discussion of how the murderer might have 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: got in and out of the room reminded me of 60 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: a Golden age detective story, one of those nineteen thirties 61 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: Agatha Christie's stories. One of her Great Contemporaries. I didn't 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: really think very much more of it until a couple 63 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: of years later when I found that the whole trial 64 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: had been transcribed, And when I read that, I found 65 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: that actually it was not just as good as I 66 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: had thought it might be, but actually quite a lot better. 67 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: It was a really fantastic murder mystery with a genuine 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: mystery at its heart, also elements of the sort of 69 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: locked room mystery going on. In particular, the one feature 70 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: I'd kind of single out as the reason I was 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: interested in writing about it as a non fiction book 72 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 2: was that it had all those elements that make detective 73 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: fiction of the early twentieth century so enjoyable, which is 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: to say, a distinctive setting, a cast of characters which 75 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: includes a relatively limited number of suspects that you can 76 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: choose between, and then a distinctive detective at the heart 77 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: of it all, even with a distinctive name, Augustus Guy. 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: So when I went back to it and read the 79 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: transcript of this trial, I thought, this has to be 80 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: a book. 81 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: And you have some wacky science that goes along with 82 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: this too, that was real, and you know, people continue 83 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: to believe for a long time, and we'll talk about 84 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: phrenology in a little bit. But you have some elements 85 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: here that I think for me almost represent contemporary, you know, 86 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: issues that we talk about in true crime today, including 87 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: scientific racism, which is what phrenology really kind of evolved into, 88 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: predicting somebody's behavior in their character based on some physical attributes. 89 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: Yes, I would sort of divide up this story into 90 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: three separate not chapters, but there are sort of three 91 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: almost acts to this story. There is the murder and 92 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: the investigation that followed it, which lasted many months. It 93 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: was not a crime that was easily solved at all. 94 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: And then there is the high drama of the court trial. 95 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: It was a four day trial, which at that time 96 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: was a very long court proceedings. They like to get 97 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 2: them done and dusted in a day if they could. 98 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: After the trial, there's this very extraordinary you could call 99 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: it a coder. There's like this strange afterlife of the 100 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: stories not done and dusted, and that involves at this 101 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: point this extraordinary character phrenologist, as you say, as somebody 102 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 2: who studied the shapes of people's skulls and based an 103 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: entire theory on the shape of skulls. He wanted to 104 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: prove that you could distinguish between a murge and a 105 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: non murderer based on the shape of somebody's skull. He 106 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: is a very extraordinary character who comes in and then 107 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: we have this rather unexpected I mean to me, it's 108 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: it's almost the it's the part of the story that 109 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: makes this such a distinctive tale that this phrenologist, a 110 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: man based in Liverpool called called Frederick Bridges, comes in 111 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: and then studies the skull or the person who has 112 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: turned out to be the chief suspect for the murder. 113 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think, obviously is a 114 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: contemporary theme that you've brought up in here too, is 115 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: the idea of junk science, and that falls into you know, phrenology. 116 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: You know, we can laugh at certain things, dogs sniffing 117 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: a suspect and you know, pointing them out and then 118 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: they end up in jail. Which has happened for that 119 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: that's the only evidence, And you know, there's certainly some 120 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: very questionable techniques out there, like I'll think about in US. 121 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: I'll say, there's no way anybody is going to believe 122 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: that this is the only piece of evidence needed to 123 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: convict someone. Into people believe them. And that's what was 124 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: sort of happening, you know, in this case and in 125 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: this time period before phrenology was discredited, was you could 126 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: have somebody feel you know, the skull of someone and 127 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: declare whether they had a criminal mind or not, like 128 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: you had said. Also, you know, sort of like an 129 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty six minority report. 130 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: Yes. One of the things about this story this era, 131 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: which I think is rather interesting from the point of 132 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: view of looking into a crime and investigating a crime, 133 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: is it really stands at the junction between two eras. 134 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: On the one hand, it sounds very much like a 135 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: police procedural from say London today, like an English or 136 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: Scottish police story today. That there was a detective force 137 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: in Dublin in eighteen fifty six. It was modeled on 138 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: the slightly older detective force that had been set up 139 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: in London, the Metropolitan Police. The Metro Police was found 140 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: in the eighteen twenties and their detectives came along about 141 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: ten years after that. Dublin institute its detective force a 142 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: little later, but it was modeled explicitly on the London 143 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: force when Dublin gained its first detective force. So you 144 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: have the structure of the police and the way they 145 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: operate is superficially very similar to the way that a 146 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: police investigation might even take place today. The ranks of 147 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: the officers are the same, the way they go about 148 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: it is sort of superficially similar, but at the same 149 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: time their investigation techniques are so primitive. 150 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: Let's get to the main part of the story before 151 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: we dive too much into phrenology and the way that 152 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: you know the police force was structured. Where does it 153 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: make sense to you to start? Is it with the 154 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: victim George Little, or is it the scene on when 155 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:41,239 Speaker 1: he's discovered. 156 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it is the victim George Little. He 157 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: was a man in his early forties who worked as 158 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: a clerk in the railway station in Dublin, the Midland's 159 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 2: Great Western Railway Company's terminus at Broadstone. His background was 160 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: slightly unfortunate in that he was one of four children 161 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: of a prosperous solicitor in middle class Dublin, and his 162 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: father had died when he was fifteen, very suddenly and unexpectedly, 163 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: leaving his mother. George Little's mother a widow with four 164 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: children to support, and they had very little money. They 165 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: ended up living in I would say some poverty, although 166 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: in quite a grand house in the southern suburbs of Dublin. 167 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: George Little ended up as the bread winner for the 168 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: entire household, for his mother, for his grandmother who lived 169 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: with them, and a widowed sister, and for one of 170 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: his siblings, a sister who lived with him. So there 171 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: are four people living in this house. He's the only 172 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: person earning a wage. And he was working as the 173 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: chief cashier in the station. One evening in November eighteen 174 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: fifty six, he told his sister that he was going 175 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 2: to be working a little late. There was a lot 176 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: of work to do, and his job consisted essentially of 177 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: taking all the cash that was taken on the entire 178 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 2: railway line from Dublin to the West coast of Ireland. 179 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: And when all the money came, all the money from 180 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: the entire length of the line, every ticket office came 181 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: to Dublin and it was his job to count it up, 182 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: account it and then send all the returns into the 183 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: accounting department of the railway company. And on this Thursday 184 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: evening there was a lot of money to be counted. 185 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: He had to stay late to his family surprise. He 186 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: didn't return home that night, and his sister went into 187 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: the station the following morning to find out what had 188 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 2: happened to him, and nobody had realized that he had 189 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: not left his office that night, and they found his 190 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 2: office locked and shut, and when they broke down the door, 191 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: there was this scene of absolute carnage within. He had 192 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: been bludgeoned to death with some heavy object, but his 193 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 2: throat had also been cut, so it was a fairly 194 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: terrifying scene, a huge pool of blood, and then this 195 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: really very disfigured body lying underneath his desk. I think 196 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: it's worth saying this in Dublin, which strangely had not 197 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: experienced any murder in probably over a decade. 198 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: Wow. 199 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: And we tend to think of Victorian cities, particularly in Britain, 200 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: has been terribly dangerous places, places where footpads and thieves 201 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: and robbers thought nothing of slitting your throat to take 202 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: your wallet. But in fact Dublin was perhaps the best 203 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: police city on the planet at this point. It had 204 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: an enormous police force and it was very very safe. 205 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: And in fact, the previous documented murder within the city 206 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 2: of Dublin that I could find any evidence about was 207 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: eighteen forty two. That's fourteen years without a single documented homicide, 208 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: which I think is just an extraordinary statistic. 209 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: So when he is counting this money, how much money 210 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: are we talking about in Dublin eighteen fifty six and 211 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: you know what would that be the equivalent of today? 212 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: Is it hundreds of thousands of dollars or less? 213 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: Well, I think I mean, off the top of my head, 214 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: the amount of money that he had in his office 215 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: that night was something of the order of one and 216 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 2: a half thousand pounds, which is an absolutely enormous amount 217 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: of money. I mean, it's multiples of what the average 218 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: worker in Dublin would be earning per year at that date. 219 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: It was an unusually large sum of money, even for 220 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: a railway company that was at that point very successful. 221 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: And the reason for that is twofold one is that 222 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: the money that came through his office wasn't just every 223 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: fare that was paid on the entire railway line. It 224 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: was also the Canal Company, which was also owned by 225 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: the railway company. Before the railways came along, the main 226 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: route of communication and of carrying large heavy loads from 227 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: the west coast of Ireland to Dublin was the canal network. 228 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 2: Every penny that was spent on the canals all the 229 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: railway ended up in George Little's office. But also that 230 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: particular week there had been a big fair at a 231 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: place called Mullinger, which is in the midlands of Ireland. 232 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: It was the main place where horses were traded at 233 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: that point in Ireland and even breeders and owners used 234 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: to come from England to buy and sell their horses 235 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: at Mullinger. So there was a huge amount of extra 236 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: footfall on the railways. Even animals, by the way, went 237 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: on this railway, so cows and horses would also have 238 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: been loaded as freight. So there was a huge amount 239 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: of traffic going up and down the railway line that week, 240 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: and as a result, he had this huge sum of 241 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: money on his desk in front of him at the 242 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 2: moment that he was killed. 243 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: Is it determined pretty quickly whether or not these weapons 244 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: there's a heavy object you said that was used to 245 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: beat him viciously, and then a razor or something used 246 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: to cut his throat. Were those things that were present 247 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: in his office. I know that eventually we're going to 248 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: get to where they're found. 249 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: One of the things that's quite interesting about this case, 250 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: comparing it with how murder investigations go today, is there 251 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 2: was very little heed paid to the importance of the 252 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: murder scene, the crime scene. There's no sense that you've 253 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: got to preserve evidence, that you've got to look for traces, 254 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: or that you've got to look for particular objects there. 255 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: So by the time the police actually a summoned to 256 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: investigate the scene, literally dozens of people have been even 257 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: people just wanting to go into the room to have 258 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: a look and see what it was like, what was 259 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: going on. People were taking souvenirs from the room even 260 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: before the police had had the chance to examine it. 261 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: So they didn't have a pristine scene by any means. 262 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: But objects they found there really probably immediately they could 263 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: see that there was no murder weapon on the scene. 264 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 2: They found a small pen knife which had evidently been 265 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: used as a sort of office work, maybe for sort 266 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: of cutting the strings on bundles of papers, that sort 267 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: of thing. There was nothing sharp enough to have caused 268 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: a wound that's described by one of the doctors who 269 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: examined the body as having almost entirely severed his neck. 270 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: The cuts of this blade had gone so deep that 271 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: he had almost exposed the spine from the front of 272 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: the neck. It was a really very extreme injury, and 273 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: similarly the skull had been very badly fractured in several places, 274 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: so it was of heavy object. There was absolutely nothing 275 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: suitable in the room for causing such severe injuries. There 276 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: was brief discussion at the inquest, which took place forty 277 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: eight hours later in the same building. There was brief 278 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: discussion of whether a poke which had been found next 279 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: to the fire might have been involved, but it was 280 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: a sort of slim, slender, cast iron object. There was 281 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: absolutely no way it could have caused those injuries. So 282 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: pretty quickly the police understood that they were also looking 283 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: for murder weapons as well as the murderer himself. 284 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: The door locked on the inside. These are not the 285 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: kind of locks where we can do the little thumb 286 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: lock where you can lock it now on the inside 287 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: and shut the door and it'll be locked to anybody 288 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: on the outside. Did somebody have to have a key 289 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: to be able to do this? 290 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's worth describing the room where his 291 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: body was found first of all, so he was in 292 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: the cashier's office, which was on the first floor of 293 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: the building. And again it's worth saying that one of 294 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: the reasons I've found this quite an attractive story is 295 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: that the setting was not just a railway station, but 296 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: a railway station where there was a permanent residential staff. 297 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: So there is the station house where several people lived. 298 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: The station master lived in an apartment in the basement 299 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: with his family. There are a couple of other families 300 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: that lived there full time. There were always people in residence, 301 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: and George Little's office was on the first floor of 302 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: this building. There was a maid who came and went, 303 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: who would make the fire and then clean the rooms 304 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: after everybody had left, And there was more than one 305 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: way in and out of his room, the door which 306 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: was lockable, and then there are a couple of windows, 307 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: one of which overlooked the great roof that went over 308 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: the train shed itself. And when his body was found, 309 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: the door was locked. Initially it was thought that it 310 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: had been locked from the inside. That turned out not 311 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: to have been the case in fact. And then there 312 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: was also the window, And actually both of these routes 313 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: remained plausible entry and exit routes for the mergerer for 314 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: months afterwards. In fact, what was probably the cases they 315 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: established quite quickly was that the mergerer had probably gone 316 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: in through the door and exited through the window, and 317 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: there was a route that they established. It was possible 318 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: to get out of the window and then walk along 319 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: the roof and then down a ladder into one of 320 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: the restaurants one of the laboratories on the station platform. 321 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: So there was a sort of multiplicity of options that 322 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: possibilities that were open. 323 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: Could this have been a crime of opportunity in that 324 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: someone saw his light on late one night and you 325 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: could see that visibly from wherever the public could access it. 326 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: Or was this a situation where somebody would have had 327 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: to know his schedule or was sort of observing him 328 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: knowing he was going to be alone and that this 329 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: would be a safe thing to do well. 330 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: The honest answer is yes to both. But one of 331 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: the things the police really struggled with was to understand 332 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: the circumstances. There were reasons for thinking that it had 333 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: to be somebody who knew the station premises well, because 334 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: the station house itself was locked up after one of 335 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: the late trains had left in the early evening, and 336 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 2: at that point it was possible for a member of 337 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: the public to walk into the station house and find 338 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: his office, but you would have to know a quite 339 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: complicated route, which involved going downstairs to the basement and 340 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: then up a backset of stairs in order to get 341 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: to the office. At the same time, there was also 342 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: the possibility that it had been a crime of opportunity, 343 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: because the building was fundamentally open to anybody any member 344 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 2: of the public during the day, and there were numerous 345 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: hiding places where somebody could have hidden. The investigation, which 346 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: lasted weeks and then stretched out into months, lasted so 347 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: long partly because there were so many different possibilities, both 348 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: of the nature of the crime but also who had 349 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: committed it. 350 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: Let's I guess start with what they think the motive is. 351 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: They see this man badly beaten. Is this what now? 352 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a UK term also, 353 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: but in America this would be called like an overkill, 354 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: like somebody really has beaten this person far more than 355 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: needed to just disable someone or quickly kill someone and 356 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: take money or take whatever they wanted and then leave. 357 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: This seemed personal. 358 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: There was a ferocity to the nature of the attack 359 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 2: that really took people's breath away. That's worth saying. It's 360 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 2: one of the reasons that it absolutely gripped Dublin. When 361 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: this was first announced in the papers within forty eight 362 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 2: hours of his death, nobody could remember something quite as 363 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: appallingly violent as this, and in fact it led the 364 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: police to think at first that there might have been 365 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: some sort of motive like revenge involved, But when they 366 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 2: looked into his family background, they found that actually he 367 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: was an extremely quiet and reserved man. He was a 368 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 2: member of a Christian sect, the Plymouth Brethren, was absolutely pacifist, 369 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: did not believe in holding grudges. He was honest to 370 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 2: a fault. He had few close friends, but he was 371 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: universally well liked. There was no grounds for thinking that 372 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: this could have been a sort of personal motive, so 373 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: that left the idea that it was either robbery or 374 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,239 Speaker 2: just a random attack. And at first it seemed that 375 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 2: nothing had been taken, because when they found his body 376 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: they discovered that his table his desk was piled high 377 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 2: with gold coins and banknotes hundreds and hundreds of pounds, 378 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: an absolute fortune to any normal Dubliner. So they thought, well, 379 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: this can't possibly have been robbery, and it was only 380 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: after the accounting department downstairs had gone through every pile 381 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: of money on his desk and compared the sums that 382 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 2: they counted up with what was in his books. That 383 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 2: a very substantial sum of money turned out to be missing, 384 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: and at that point they realized that the motive almost 385 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: certainly was financial. 386 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: I still cannot believe when dealing with that amount of money, 387 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: I understand that Dublin was not high crime or any 388 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: violent crime. It's so hard to believe that there's not 389 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: at least another security guard or something somebody there when 390 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: you have that much money and you're there alone at night, 391 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: it is astonishing. 392 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: Even more than that. George Little had only been the 393 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: chief cashier there for about six months, and when he 394 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: was appointed, one of the first things he did was 395 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: make representations to to his bosses that they needed to 396 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: install a screen, a physical barrier to prevent people walking 397 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,959 Speaker 2: straight into his office. And they did eventually get somebody, 398 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: a carpenter, to come up and build a screen so 399 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: that it wasn't possible to walk in that you have 400 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: to go to a little window and talk to him 401 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: through the window. And in fact, he didn't even have 402 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: a lock on the door. And this isn't a city 403 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: that had really extraordinary poverty. Just within a few miles 404 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: of the front door of this station, it had received 405 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: thousands of I mean refugees is not too strong a word. 406 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 2: From the Great Famine of the previous decade, many many 407 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: Irish people had starved, others had emigrated, and many more 408 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: had left the countryside in search of food and accommodation 409 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: in Dublin. So there was a huge poverty problem. And 410 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: the idea that these hundreds of pounds would not be 411 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: a target for criminals is breathtaking. So yes, I agree, 412 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: But even that was heightened security arrangements. But so much 413 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: more would have been done to protect him in those circumstances. 414 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: Tell me what was forensically available in eighteen fifty six, 415 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: I know, not fingerprinting, although I know we're not too 416 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: far away from fingerprinting, at least in Europe. But what 417 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: else is there? I mean, my memory, at least in 418 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: the United States dealing with a case from eighteen forty 419 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: three was you pretty much had to catch the person 420 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: red handed, I mean, in the middle of the act, 421 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: or have a really reliable witness. What could they even 422 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: use at this point? 423 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: Very little. There are a couple of moments where actual 424 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 2: scientists are called upon. There was, for instance, on the 425 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: first examination of the station, the police found a red 426 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: stain on one of the door posts one of the 427 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 2: entrances to the station house, and a section of this 428 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: doorpost was cut out, physically cut out, and sent to 429 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: a professor of chemistry with a request that he tested 430 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: to see if it might be a blood stain. And 431 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: he tested it and said he wasn't sure. He had 432 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: no idea. Similarly, when a murder weapon was found, which 433 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: turned out to be a fitter's hammer, which is an 434 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: enormously heavy hammer, which was carried in a locomotive by 435 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 2: the driver and was used elsewhere in the station for 436 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: a variety of maintenance and building tasks. There was a 437 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: substance found on the head of this hammer which might 438 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: or might not have been human hair. Again, they attempt 439 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: to find out whether it is human hair. They think 440 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 2: it looks like it, but they absolutely can't prove it 441 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: in court, So there is no fingerprinting. The examination of 442 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 2: the crime scene is rudimentary and takes place far too late. Anyway, 443 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: the only evidence that you might say has a sort 444 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: of monoicum of modernity to it is that provided by 445 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: the doctors, you know these days it would be done 446 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: by a pathologist. But his body was examined by three doctors, 447 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: and in fact, when the murder weapon is found, the 448 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: hammer is discovered at the bottom of a canal, they 449 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: actually exhume his body to see if the head of 450 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: the hammer fits into the wounds on his skull, which 451 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: is a slightly horrifying idea now that you dig up 452 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: a body just to do that and in fact provide 453 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 2: evidence which is probably not all that conclusive. But that 454 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: was the only of course they had. 455 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you a series of questions about 456 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: what you just said. So let's say they can't identify 457 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: that this is blood on this piece of wood, and 458 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: then let's say that we can say that this is 459 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: definitively hair, that is human hair. We're not at a 460 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: point where they can determine whose blood this is or 461 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: point to, you know, who the suspect could possibly be. 462 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: All they could say is a murder happened, which to 463 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: me seems of course very obvious. A murder happened here. 464 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: And then the same thing with the weapon. I suppose 465 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: maybe there's a clue within the weapon, like it's a 466 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: specific kind of hammer, that only one person at the 467 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: railway station would have owned. But other than that, what 468 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: good does it do to do these different things? Do 469 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: you think? 470 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: Very little, I would suggest. But one has to also 471 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 2: bear in mind that the type of case that the 472 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: Crown is hoping to put to together, sorry of the 473 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 2: Crown being the prosecutors, that the type of case that 474 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: the prosecutors are trying to put together when it comes 475 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: to a court case, the sort of court case that 476 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: they end up with, is one that relies very heavily 477 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 2: on super In fact, sorry not very heavily, exclusively on 478 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence. And a detail like that about there being 479 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: some hair on the hammer may prove absolutely nothing, but 480 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: it's being seen by the prosecutors and the investigators as 481 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 2: a potential link in a very long chain of circumstantial evidence, 482 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 2: something which on its own means nothing, but when combined 483 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: with a lot of other apparently trivial findings, might actually 484 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: add up to something which to a jury looks like 485 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: a convincing line of argument. 486 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: Or to a suspect, if there's more than one. You know, 487 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: I did a story on Burke and Hare out of Scotland, 488 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: and the only way that they could get one of 489 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: them was to get the other one to turn on him. 490 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: And so you know, when you think about that, if 491 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: you're accumulating all of the circumstantial evidence, which right might 492 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: arriors now be mean, but if you present that, if 493 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: you find there are two suspects who might have been 494 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: working together, and you present work. We have all this evidence, 495 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: and he doesn't know how not valuable some of this 496 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: might be. Maybe he's more willing to turn on the 497 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: other person, I suppose. I know that's not particularly the 498 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: case in this story, but I was thinking that, like, boy, 499 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: you gather enough stuff, even though it might not seem 500 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: like it's going to lead anywhere, at least it looks 501 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: to the public like you're moving forward. 502 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and there is I mean, there is a 503 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: particularity to this case which is probably worth mentioning, which 504 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 2: is the identity of the man who eventually stood trial 505 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: for this and the nature of the evidence that the 506 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: prosecutors were able to offer against him. And they were 507 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: hugely inconvenience by the fact that the person who accused 508 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: him was none other than his wife. That was a 509 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 2: fact of great significance in English and Irish law in 510 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: the eighteen fifties, because at that point in legal history, 511 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: it was not possible for a wife to offer evidence 512 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 2: against her own husband. There's this peculiarity that at that 513 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 2: point a wife was still seen as the literally the 514 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 2: possession of a husband and part of him, which meant 515 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: that one person was essentially giving evidence against himself, which 516 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: is a sort of obvious logical absurdity, and it leads 517 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 2: this situation where somebody can come forward and say, my 518 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: husband has confessed this crime. I know what he did. 519 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: I can show you how he did it. I can 520 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 2: show you where he hid the money, I can show 521 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: you what he did with the murder weapon. But none 522 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: of that evidence, which would otherwise be damning, is admissible 523 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: in a court of law because a wife is simply 524 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: prohibited from giving that evidence to a judge. Now, that 525 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: is the reason that in this case the police were 526 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: absolutely compelled to put together the most convincing, circumstantial case 527 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: that they could. 528 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: Well, before we get to the main suspect, tell me, 529 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: I think there is one extraordinary event involving and alluded 530 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: to it before. How they secured the two murder weapons? 531 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: Tell me, first of all, how did they decide on 532 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: where to look for these weapons. 533 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: Well, this is the single biggest investigation in the history 534 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: of the Dublin Metropolitan Police up to this point. The 535 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 2: scale of it is kind of astonishing. The police at 536 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: this point had a single detective division and they were 537 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 2: pulling in officers from all the other neighboring forces that 538 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: weren't detectives as well, and they ended up scarring every 539 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: inch of the Broadstone Terminus three times. That's everything from 540 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: the roof right down to the sellers, every single room 541 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: in that building. They interviewed pretty much every employee who 542 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: worked there and just word saying something about the scale 543 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: of this as well. By the way they had there 544 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: were workshops where carriages and engines were built. There were 545 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: maintenance offices, there were the ticket offices. There were the housekeepers, 546 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 2: the station masters, there were stationed police officers who were there. 547 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: It was an extraordinarily large operation. Sixty people worked in 548 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: the station house alone, and as part of their search, 549 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 2: they drained the canal, which at that point it ended 550 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: in a basin right outside the station. So they drained 551 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: the canal and this army of workmen sifted through the 552 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: stinking mud at the bottom of the canal, and that's 553 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: where they found first the hammer and then subsequently not one, 554 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: but two raisers. 555 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: Now this would be a hammer you said that would 556 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: have been found by anybody laying around in the railway station. 557 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: Is that right? 558 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: Well, there were many. There were many hammers in the 559 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: station because they were used for a variety of tasks. 560 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: They would also have been found on a locomotive for 561 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: the use of the driver, if I suppose if something 562 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 2: broke down when they're on a journey. But the hammers 563 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: were actually made in the workshops at the station, and 564 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: so it was easy to identify it as a hammer 565 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 2: that must have been made there and therefore was used 566 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: by somebody who actually lived and lived or worked at 567 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: the station. 568 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: So this would not have been a hammer that some 569 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: stranger could have come in and picked up and said, oh, 570 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: this would be a good murder weapon. This had to 571 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: be with somebody who had access to it. 572 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 2: It strongly pointed to the suggestion that there was somebody 573 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: at the station who worked there who had done it. 574 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: It's not an object that a member of the public 575 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 2: would just kind of stumble across. You had to be 576 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: in one of the workshops or actually on board one 577 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 2: of the locomotives to have access to one. In fact, 578 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: there was. There's a storekeeper and mister Gunning, who is 579 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: quite heavily involved in the story and who at one 580 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: point becomes the police's favored suspect. He is interviewed about 581 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: how they keep the hammers in the store, and it's 582 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: behind a counter where he has to sign out the 583 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 2: hammers to whoever wants to use one, so that that 584 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: is seen as the obvious source of them of the 585 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: murder weapon. 586 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: So I might be wrong here, but this doesn't seem 587 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: like a practical murder weapon to me. Didn't you say 588 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: it's very very heavy? Or is he lugging this around everywhere? 589 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: It's heavy? But at the same time, the station is 590 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: absolutely full of very powerfully built laborers who were doing 591 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: extremely physical jobs. They were building locomotives, they were building 592 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: railway carriages. There were a lot of very physically strong 593 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: guys there. 594 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: When we talk about a razor, you said they found 595 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: two razors. Is this like a straight razor like what 596 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: men would use to shave with. 597 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's what we would call here a cut threat raiser. 598 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the phrase that you use 599 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 2: as well. 600 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: I don't think so. 601 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're known kind of cut threat raisers typically, but yes, 602 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: they're they're long, straight, very thin and kind of fearsomely 603 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: sharp blade that you would you'd sharpen on a wetstone. 604 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: They're kind of terrifying objects, but yes, and in fact 605 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: were sort of notorious as the weapon of choice for 606 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: a certain type of murder in this at this period 607 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 2: of the nineteenth century. 608 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: Sweeney Todd raizor is what I'm picturing. 609 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, well exactly. I mean Sweeney Todd is probably the 610 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: best known example. But yes, yeah, you know, it's a 611 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: terrifying and probably the sharpest blade that would be available 612 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: on a day to day basis in a city at 613 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 2: this point. 614 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: Now you've mentioned mister Gunning. They eventually dismiss as a suspect, right, 615 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: the store manager. 616 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: Yes, But one of the interesting things about him is 617 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: the police were absolutely convinced of his guilt. There were 618 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: a number of slightly shady things about him, apparently, one 619 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: of which was that his furniture seemed to be worth 620 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: much more than he was earning. He also seemed to 621 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: have a track record of maybe doing some shady dealing 622 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: in his job as manager of the stores. He was 623 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: probably acquiring things to the stores that maybe he sold 624 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: on for his own profit, and he was a trusted 625 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: member of the company, so this probably wasn't being noticed 626 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 2: by the management. In addition to that, there were a 627 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 2: couple of little incidents where he gave what were subsequently 628 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: shown to be untruthful answers to the police when they 629 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 2: came to investigate him. I think it's worth saying this 630 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: that one of the reasons I know all this is that, 631 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: amazingly the police files for this case, which is, you know, 632 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: more than one hundred and seventy years old, now, the 633 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: police files have survived, and so I have seen notes 634 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: where police officers discussed the behavior of their suspects in private. 635 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: And there is even in the case of Bernard Gunning, 636 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: the record of surveillance that was placed on him for 637 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: a period of many months. I find this slightly jaw dropping. Now. 638 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: The paper trail shows that he was being followed by 639 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: plainclothes officers under conditions of secrecy for at least three 640 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 2: or four months in early eighteen fifty seven, and there 641 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: are documents where these officers write what he's doing in 642 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 2: his spare time late at night, going to hotels, meeting 643 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: unnamed women and going with them to another house in 644 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: the city. So they were absolutely convinced that Gunning was guilty, 645 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: but they didn't have any evidence to prove it, and 646 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,239 Speaker 2: that's what they resorted to, these plainclothes officers tailing him 647 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: around town, reporting on his doings to senior officers. 648 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: Well, we end up dismissing mister Gunning as a suspect. 649 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: How do we land on the man who would eventually 650 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: be the focus of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. 651 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: Well, after an investigation which spanned about six to nine months. 652 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: It began in the eighteen fifty six and the last 653 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: written record of the initial investigation dates from about mid May, 654 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: it all goes quiet, and it's clear that the police 655 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: had despaired of catching the killer and the politicians were 656 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: too embarrassed to keep funding it. After that, it goes 657 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 2: quiet for about another month, and then out of the blue, 658 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: a woman walked into Well. She knocked on the door 659 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: of the chief prosecutor for that part of Ireland and 660 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: said that she knew who had committed the murder and 661 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: it was her husband. And later that same day she 662 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: led police to three separate sites on the estate where 663 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 2: they found caches of money, and she also showed them 664 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: where her husband had destroyed evidence, including the clothes he'd 665 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: been wearing, and provided other essentially proof, or so she claimed, 666 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 2: of his guilt. And that's where the sort of second 667 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: phase kicks in, where they arrest their man and they 668 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 2: prepare evidence to put him on trial. But as I 669 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: said earlier, they were hamstrung by the fact that they 670 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 2: simply couldn't use any of the absolutely brilliant evidence they'd 671 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 2: just been handed by his wife. Now they were able 672 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: to use the evidence of his children, and they interviewed 673 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: all the children, although the youngest was so young that 674 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: his answers really weren't of any value. But they ended 675 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: up putting two of these children on the stand in 676 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 2: the subsequent trial. The oldest child remained loyal to his 677 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: father and was therefore of no use to them and 678 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 2: was not required to give evidence. But this very interesting 679 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: family dynamic then emerges, which is that the father and 680 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: the oldest son remain allies. The father being on trial, 681 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 2: the other children which is two daughters and a younger son, 682 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: and the wife essentially never speak to him again. 683 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: And the suspect is James Sprawlin. Is it how you 684 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: say his last name? 685 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: Yes, Spollin, who's variously spelt, and he's Spolin but also 686 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 2: known as Spolin. 687 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: So his wife, James's wife is not allowed to give 688 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: evidence because she's considered a possess of his, but the 689 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: children are not. That children can testify against him. That 690 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me. 691 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 2: Well, the key point is not so much that she 692 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 2: was a possession of him, but actually in law was 693 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 2: regarded as part of him. So husband and wife after 694 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 2: the union are I mean union is the crucial word. 695 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 2: They become one entity. Okay. There was only one exception 696 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: to that in law, which was that if a husband 697 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 2: assaulted his wife, it was felt that he had thereby 698 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: sort of dissolved the union, and then a wife was 699 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 2: able to give evidence against her own husband. But it 700 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 2: was only in that very specific offense of assault against 701 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 2: the spouse. In fact, that provision was not changed in 702 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 2: English law until I think eighteen ninety seven, so it 703 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: persisted for really quite a long time. 704 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: Tell me about the dynamic from what you know between 705 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: James and his wife. Is this a man who's considered abusive? 706 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: Why would she turn on on the I presume to 707 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: be the breadwinner of her family. 708 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: It seems to have been. Yes, I think coercive is 709 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: probably a good word for the nature of their relationship, 710 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 2: and he was probably abusive her account, which is all 711 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 2: we really have to go on. But it seems very 712 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 2: sort of credible. Is that essentially after the crime she 713 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 2: accuses him of, I think the relationship seems to have 714 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 2: broken down entirely. But there are several incidents that she documents. 715 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 2: One is that she was sick and he refused to 716 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 2: allow a doctrin in the house on grounds of cost. 717 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 2: But even though she was possibly quite seriously ill, he 718 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: refused to get any medical attention for her at all. 719 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: She also suspected him of trying to poison her, and 720 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: she was very clearly unhappy that she had been forced 721 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 2: to cover up his crime. She and her eldest son 722 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: had seen him returning in her account covered in blood 723 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 2: and carrying a bucket full of money, and when he 724 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 2: saw that she had seen this, he forced her to 725 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 2: promise that she would now tell a soul, and also 726 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 2: forced her to help him conceal the money and burn 727 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 2: the clothes he'd been wearing. Following his arrest, she wanted 728 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: never to have anything to do with him, and in 729 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: fact she ends up in a safe house under an 730 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 2: assumed name because she is never going to be safe 731 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 2: from him again. But he was actually quite keen to 732 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 2: resume the marriage as if nothing had. 733 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: Happened, knowing how much acrimony there is between these two people, 734 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: particularly for the wife, who you know is suspicious of him, 735 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: and he doesn't seem like a very good person based 736 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: on everything she said and everything you've read. Is there 737 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: any doubt in your mind that James Sprawlin was the 738 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: one who committed this murder? 739 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 2: Well, there are two aspects to this. One is was 740 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: the outcome of the trial the correct outcome? And the 741 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: other is was it him that did it? And there 742 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 2: is no doubt in my mind that the prosecutors were 743 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: in an impossible situation without the evidence that they might 744 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: have gained from his wife. They had the evidence of 745 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 2: his eldest daughter, but it became apparent during cross examination 746 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 2: that she had been probably quite severely coached, and also 747 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 2: was not really old enough to understand the nature of 748 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 2: the questions or to remember accurately what had happened on 749 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 2: one night nine months previously. And it's I think quite 750 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 2: a gripping court scene because her evidence is absolutely brutally 751 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: taken apart by the defense barrister. It's quite clear that 752 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 2: the nature of the contradictions that turn up in the 753 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 2: prosecution evidence in court make it absolutely impossible for a 754 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 2: jury in its right mind to convict the man who 755 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 2: was standing accused of the crime. On the other hand, 756 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: it seems quite clear to me that the man who 757 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: was accused of the crime did it. He never gets 758 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 2: quite to the point of confessing to it, but reading 759 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 2: between the lines, there are moments when he more or 760 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: less acknowledges what he's done. And one of the things 761 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 2: that I quite enjoyed about the story is that there's 762 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 2: this amazing period of about two weeks after he's acquitted, 763 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 2: and he's actually roaming free in Dublin, a free man. 764 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 2: But half of Dublin, or even two thirds of Dublin 765 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 2: thinks he's definitely the guilty man. And yet he decides 766 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 2: to go on stage in a Dublin theater and do 767 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 2: a one man show about why it couldn't possibly have 768 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: been him that killed George Little at the Broadstone railway station. 769 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 2: He was absolutely shameless and had no sense of there's 770 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 2: no delicacy there or any sense that the dead man's 771 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: family might be impossibly offended by his behavior. So he 772 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 2: turns into a sort of horribly compelling character, and one 773 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 2: who certainly lacks self awareness. Even if he were not guilty, 774 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 2: he certainly behaved in the most appalling way. 775 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: Who would put him on stage, Thomas, I mean somebody 776 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: who owned a theater or whatever said, Okay, this seems 777 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: like a good idea. I mean this, doesn't this seem 778 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 1: beneath the people of Dublin. 779 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 2: Well, all, it was all at his own instigation, so 780 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 2: he would have hired He would have hired the theater himself, 781 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 2: and the receipts were absolutely pitiful. I think he made 782 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 2: a loss that the number of attendees is actually recorded 783 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: in one of the newspaper accounts. And he had booked 784 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 2: this theater for two daily shows for a week's run initially, 785 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: and I think he was hoping to not only extend 786 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 2: the run but then go on tour around Ireland with 787 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 2: his show as well. And in the event he did 788 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 2: two shows. He did one matinee and one evening show, 789 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 2: and the first one things became a bit rarey on 790 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 2: the streets. But during a second show, there was a 791 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 2: full blown riot on the streets outside, people throwing rocks 792 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 2: and breaking windows, and inside the theater he was booed 793 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 2: off the stage. So it was a catastrophe for him personally. 794 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 2: And that was the moment at which it became apparent 795 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 2: that he could no longer stay in Dublin, and that's 796 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 2: the moment he decides to leave Ireland and find a 797 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 2: way of emigrating. 798 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I have never heard of, certainly in this 799 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: time period, in many time periods, of his socioeconomic background, 800 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: being so determined to salvage his public image that he's 801 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 1: doing something like this. It's a little shocking to me, it. 802 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 2: Is, and he becomes like an almost it's a vaudeville act. Really. 803 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 2: There's an item that I really wish I had been 804 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 2: able to track down. I'm sure it was destroyed years 805 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 2: and years ago. But during the trial, and this was 806 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 2: very common for complex criminal cases in the days before photographs, 807 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 2: that it was important to give the jurious sense of 808 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 2: the crime scene and of the sort of wider setting 809 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 2: in which this action is taking place. So they commissioned 810 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: a very detailed wooden model of the station building. It 811 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 2: would be a wonderful thing to have now, and this 812 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 2: enormous it was several feet long. This model was displayed 813 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: in the middle of the courtroom and then the barristers, 814 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: the lawyers would point to bits of it to explain 815 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,959 Speaker 2: what was going on in the examinations they were doing. 816 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,280 Speaker 2: And after the trial, James Spollin, the man who stood 817 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 2: trial and being a quitted of a crime, manages to 818 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 2: take possession of this wooden model and takes it with 819 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 2: him to Liverpool where he ends up and puts it 820 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 2: on display. So not only is he doing a stage 821 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 2: show in a theater, he's also doing his exhibition where 822 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 2: he puts this magnificent wooden model of Broadstone railway station 823 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: in an exhibition hall in Liverpool, and he stands next 824 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 2: to it giving a sort of lecture explaining all the 825 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 2: bits of the station and where he was and where 826 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 2: George Little was when he was killed, and how it 827 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 2: couldn't possibly have been him that killed him. 828 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: So you would think that the story was over, because 829 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: you know James Sprawlin has been acquitted. He walks away, 830 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: he tries his vaudeville act. It doesn't work. It is 831 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: an unsolved officially an unsolved case. I'm assuming the murder 832 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: of George Little. Where does this phrenologist, doctor Frederick Bridges 833 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: come in? Why is he coming in at all? At 834 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: this point? 835 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 2: It's a fortunate quirk that he turns up because it 836 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 2: adds this extra whole dimension to the story. But he 837 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 2: he just happened by chance to be living in Liverpool. 838 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 2: And the reason that Spolin and his son, who, as 839 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 2: I said earlier, remains loyal to his father, James S. 840 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 2: Bollin and his son end up in Liverpool because they 841 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 2: are trying to find a way of emigrating to America 842 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 2: or somewhere else America's In fact, officially we don't know 843 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 2: where they went to. I suspect strongly it was New York, 844 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 2: but Liverpool is a place where Irish immigrants typically embark, 845 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 2: and so he's needing to find a way of raising 846 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 2: the fair and he is introduced to Frederick Bridges. Now, 847 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 2: Frederick Bridges was a phrenologist, It's worth saying I think 848 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 2: that he was. Even in the eighteen fifties, he was 849 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 2: seen as a bit of an odd ball in the 850 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 2: haydo of phrenology was between about the seventeen nineties and 851 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 2: the eighteen twenties. By the eighteen fifties, most scientists really 852 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 2: did think it was nonsense, but Bridges really stuck to 853 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,919 Speaker 2: his guns, and he had this whole private theory which 854 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 2: involved a single angle that he measured involving the relationship 855 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 2: between a person's jawline and their ear and within a 856 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 2: particular range of angle. He said, essentially, psychopaths as we 857 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,240 Speaker 2: would understand them today, and dangerous murderer types, their measurements 858 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 2: would be very characteristic, so you could tell them. And 859 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 2: he had spent years traveling around the country to executions, 860 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,760 Speaker 2: public executions, and he would seek permission from the prison 861 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 2: governor of the prisons where these executions were taking place, 862 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 2: and he would take a plaster cast of the head 863 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 2: of the recently executed man, and then he would take 864 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 2: these plaster casts home and conduct his measurements. And he 865 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 2: claimed to approved beyond all doubts that all these murderers 866 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 2: had a very significant cranial features in common. And from 867 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 2: this he built up an entire theory relating to violent 868 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 2: men in the crimes they committed and the shapes of 869 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,280 Speaker 2: their heads. And the reason he was interested in spollen 870 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 2: was although he had tested his theory repeatedly on dead 871 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 2: men who were proved to be murdered. He wanted to 872 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 2: show that his theory also had predictive power. So he 873 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,240 Speaker 2: wanted to show that by measuring an accused murderer's head, 874 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 2: he could personally prove whether they had committed the crime, 875 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 2: which you can see how if this actually had any 876 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 2: truth to it would be an extremely valuable thing that 877 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 2: you would be able to tell people in advance whether 878 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 2: they were dangerous or not, and therefore remove them from 879 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,240 Speaker 2: society if they showed a threat. 880 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: So Sprawlin is interested in doing this because he needs 881 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 1: money to be able to get out of Doublin. 882 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 2: Is that right, yes, Bridges hears that Spollin is in Liverpool, 883 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,919 Speaker 2: is down on his luck and needs money. So he 884 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 2: hatches this plan, which is I'm going to get myself 885 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 2: introduced to James Spollin and I'm going to give him money, 886 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 2: and in return for that money, I want to measure 887 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 2: his head. It's one of the strangest faust impacts you'll 888 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 2: ever hear, but he wants to measure a guy's skull 889 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 2: in return for a check. Essentially, it takes quite a while, 890 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 2: but Spallin is a actually convinced, and the deal they 891 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,399 Speaker 2: strike is that in return for making a plaster cast 892 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,240 Speaker 2: of Spolin's head and taking a photograph of him, Bridges 893 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 2: will pay his fare to emigrate, and fortunately for us, 894 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 2: he also writes a little pamphlet about this encounter, from 895 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 2: which we understand that he spent several weeks essentially charming him, 896 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 2: befriending him. There's a first meeting in a ced pub 897 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 2: in Liverpool, and then he ends up inviting him to 898 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 2: meet his wife, and Spoonin and his son go for 899 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 2: dinner there several times, and eventually he is allowed to 900 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 2: make the plaster cast and take the photographs, which sadly 901 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 2: we don't have the original photographs, but there is a 902 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 2: drawing made from the photographs which gives us a good 903 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,879 Speaker 2: likeness of Sponin, and then, having achieved that, he pays 904 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 2: for him to emigrate. And we don't know because the 905 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,399 Speaker 2: condition of this one of the conditions of this deal 906 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 2: was that he was not to divulge ever where he went. 907 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 2: But we do know the date he left, or rather 908 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 2: the weekend, and from that it is possible to at 909 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 2: least rule out many of the many of the options, 910 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 2: and from what I've seen of I mean, you can 911 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 2: tell these days. The records are so complete you can 912 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,240 Speaker 2: find out exactly what ships left Liverpool on a single 913 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 2: weekend in eighteen fifty seven, or in fact it was 914 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 2: January eighteen fifty eight by the time he embarked. So 915 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 2: I'm reasonably confident that I know that he did go 916 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 2: to New York. As I say, it's all shrouded rather 917 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 2: in mystery that the final days of his life in Liverpool. 918 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 1: So is Bridges. Doctor Bridges convinced that a man got 919 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: away with murder. After he measures this angle, he. 920 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 2: Was absolutely convinced to the extent that he wrote a 921 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 2: letter to the Home Secretary in London saying, this man 922 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 2: Spallen is so dangerous according to the measurements I have 923 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 2: taken of his skull, that he ought not to be 924 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 2: at liberty, and I strongly suggest that you take measures 925 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 2: to deprive him of his liberty. And this letter survives 926 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 2: brilliantly the text of it at least, and we also 927 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 2: know sadly that he didn't receive any response. But you 928 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 2: can only imagine the reaction of somebody in the Home 929 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 2: Office in London receiving this letter saying I've measured a 930 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,760 Speaker 2: man's skull and I can tell you he's definitely a murderer. 931 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you know, phrenology is fascinating. I interviewed 932 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 1: a neurologist who was teaching at the University of Edinburgh, 933 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: and he really dabbled in phrenology for fun, as like 934 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: a parlor trick, and he showed me a skull and 935 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: all the different sections. It was like you were at 936 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,919 Speaker 1: certain amount of bumps. Here you were extraordinarily passionate, you 937 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: were violent. In another section you were incredibly intelligent or 938 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 1: a genius or I mean some of the phrases were 939 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: so interesting. So at least doctor Bridges homed in on 940 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 1: one little section and that's it. But what do you 941 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,279 Speaker 1: think is the significance of that part kind of act 942 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: three of your story with phrenology? Because James Sprawlin's in 943 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,279 Speaker 1: the wind, we have no idea, we think he's in 944 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: New York. Do you feel like this really could have 945 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,800 Speaker 1: led to something, you know, because Bridges was really pushing 946 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: this idea. 947 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 2: Well, what comes across from reading his account of their 948 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 2: meetings is two things. One, there is a rawness to 949 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 2: his descriptions of his encounters with Spollin, which lead me 950 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,799 Speaker 2: to think that they are broadly speaking truthful. But at 951 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 2: the same time I came inescapably to the conclusion that 952 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 2: he was a terrific crank. And when he starts writing 953 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 2: about himself, his version of his life history is so 954 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 2: unbelievable that there can be no doubt that he was 955 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 2: to some degree a fantasist. He claims, for instance, that 956 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,120 Speaker 2: at the age of nine, he swam the English Channel. 957 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 2: There's a brief essay about his own biography which sort 958 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,840 Speaker 2: of prefaces his encounter with Spollin, and it's completely absurd 959 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 2: the number of things he claims to have taught himself. 960 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,280 Speaker 2: He says he was I think one of twenty children 961 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,359 Speaker 2: or something. He says he swam the channel. He has 962 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,239 Speaker 2: a whole load of completely unlikely adventures, and then is 963 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 2: returned to his parents by a kindly merchant who terms 964 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 2: him a genius. So there's a lot of self aggrandizement 965 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 2: going on there. At the same time, although he was 966 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 2: obviously regarded with a lot of sort of pity and 967 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,439 Speaker 2: amusement by some of his contemporaries, he had the ear 968 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,359 Speaker 2: of some of the most senior people in government, The 969 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Palmerston, who had previously been in office and 970 00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 2: at this point in the eighteen fifties was out of 971 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,480 Speaker 2: office again but would later go on to be Prime 972 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 2: Minister again, was very interested in phrenology and gave Bridges 973 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 2: an audience at which Bridges was permitted to feel his 974 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:35,360 Speaker 2: skull and examine him, but also present his ideas about 975 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 2: the utility of phrenology for detecting criminals, and as a 976 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,480 Speaker 2: result of that he was given a direct grant of 977 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 2: fifty pounds, which at the time was quite a considerable 978 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 2: sum of money in order to develop his work. 979 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this story to me is so interesting because 980 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: here you have this man, George Little. He's not married, right, 981 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,080 Speaker 1: he doesn't have any kids, He's taking care of members 982 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 1: of his family, he's working hard. Late one night he's 983 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: murdered brutally and his killer, we're going to go ahead 984 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,320 Speaker 1: and say the killer, right, James Sprawlin is set free 985 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 1: because of an antiquated law where his wife is not 986 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,319 Speaker 1: allowed to give evidence. And then you know, we might 987 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: have had a massive contribution which would have been terrible 988 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: to investigations based on an antiquated and then a joke 989 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,439 Speaker 1: junk science in phrenology, So sort of like like there's 990 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: several things that are rooted and inaccuracies that really pop 991 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,840 Speaker 1: up in this story of yours. 992 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 2: Yes, and this is an era before modern techniques of 993 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,200 Speaker 2: criminal investigation, so you sort of can't blame them for 994 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 2: relying on what was standard at the time. I mean, 995 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 2: I think this is where actually a parallel with what 996 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 2: I was writing about before this book, which is the 997 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,240 Speaker 2: history of medicine, is actually quite worthwhile. You can't really 998 00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,120 Speaker 2: blame doctors of the eighteenth century for relying on on 999 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 2: leeches and arsenic and drugs that we now know to 1000 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,440 Speaker 2: be harmful rather than helpful, in that they were rooted 1001 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,759 Speaker 2: in centuries of tradition and what they thought was good scholarship. 1002 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 2: And the same is true for criminal investigation. Really they 1003 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 2: could only rely on the techniques they knew, and of 1004 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 2: course they used the laws that seemed to be just 1005 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,280 Speaker 2: to them. But you know, we have twenty twenty hindsight, 1006 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 2: we can see how ludicrous some of these ideas and 1007 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 2: laws look today, but living in their world and their 1008 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 2: cultural familiar not so much. 1009 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,800 Speaker 1: My second book, American Sherlock, was about a forensic scientist 1010 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,000 Speaker 1: who worked in the nineteen twenties, where it seems like 1011 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 1: every forensic technique was developed or invented, at least in 1012 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: the United States, development of fingerprinting, bloodstained pattern analysis, more 1013 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: in depth ballistics, you know, the study of bugs, all 1014 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: of these things. And the issue that I have found 1015 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: even with the star of my book, the forensic scientist 1016 00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 1: Oskar Heinrich, was that he was so definitive. I mean 1017 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,120 Speaker 1: it was like, this is what my test says. It 1018 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,919 Speaker 1: is the truth. There is no other explanation when you're 1019 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,320 Speaker 1: at the nascent era of discovering all of these tools. 1020 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: And so when that was for me the dangerous part 1021 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: of learning about phrenology, where that is to say, Thomas Morris, 1022 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: look at the angle between his ear and you know, 1023 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: his mouth, there's along his jawline. Definitively, this is somebody 1024 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: who is going to kill someone. And I still think 1025 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,880 Speaker 1: those kinds of statements are dangerous to sit on a 1026 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,799 Speaker 1: stand as an expert and say there is no other explanation, 1027 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,000 Speaker 1: when oftentimes there is you can exclude, but sometimes you 1028 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:38,800 Speaker 1: can't include. 1029 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 2: You know, that's true. Palmerston was a bit of an outlier, 1030 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,880 Speaker 2: luckily fortunately for us, Luckily, fortunately for criminal investigation. At 1031 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,080 Speaker 2: the time, nobody else really took him seriously, and in fact, 1032 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,320 Speaker 2: when he subsequently went back to Ireland on a speaking 1033 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,759 Speaker 2: to a thinking that people would be crowding to hear 1034 00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,800 Speaker 2: crowding into the theaters to hear him talk about Spallen 1035 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 2: and about how this wonderful theory meant that murderers like 1036 00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,400 Speaker 2: him would in future be caught before they'd even committed 1037 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:10,560 Speaker 2: a crime. Nobody turned up. It was embarrassing. He had 1038 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,360 Speaker 2: his luggage full of copies of his book to sell 1039 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 2: and nobody wanted one. And I think after his first 1040 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,920 Speaker 2: speaking engagement, the rest of his trip was canceled, so 1041 00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,799 Speaker 2: he was sort of he was a man out of time. 1042 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: Really. 1043 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,880 Speaker 2: I suspect if he had been promulgating these ideas forty 1044 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 2: years earlier, or even thirty years earlier, he would have 1045 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 2: had much more of an audience, But as it was, 1046 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,280 Speaker 2: his was one of half a dozen sort of crank 1047 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,440 Speaker 2: ideas that were indulged in the investigation. Also, at one 1048 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,120 Speaker 2: point used a medium. Sadly he or she is not named, 1049 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,760 Speaker 2: but they got somebody who claimed to have supernatural powers 1050 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 2: to speak to the dead man to find out who 1051 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,560 Speaker 2: had murdered him. 1052 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,440 Speaker 1: Well, we start with George Little, the victim, and I 1053 00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,000 Speaker 1: think we end with George Little. This is a man, 1054 00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,439 Speaker 1: as I said before, a family man, doing the best 1055 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 1: he can for his family, and he ends up dead 1056 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,480 Speaker 1: and ultimately with no justice whatsoever. At the end of 1057 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: the day, when you're done writing this book and you've 1058 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,760 Speaker 1: closed it up and you've sent it to your editor, 1059 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,640 Speaker 1: that's still must weigh on you. You're doing this story with 1060 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,280 Speaker 1: all of these interesting things, but ultimately the main person 1061 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,279 Speaker 1: at the center of the story doesn't get any justice. 1062 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,880 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, nor do his family. The reason I 1063 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,839 Speaker 2: finished the book by returning to his grave and transcribing 1064 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 2: the headstone inscription on it. It's for his family. It's 1065 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 2: a very sad story. At that point. There's very little 1066 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,120 Speaker 2: idea of sort of compensating the victims of crime and 1067 00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 2: their families. And the best that is done for him 1068 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,800 Speaker 2: is that the railway company decides to instigate a collection 1069 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,280 Speaker 2: basically a charitable collection, to raise enough money to ensure 1070 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,439 Speaker 2: that his mother, who is an elderly woman, has enough 1071 00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,480 Speaker 2: to live on for the rest of her life. And 1072 00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 2: so this appeal goes out and actually they raise only 1073 00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 2: something like two thirds of the targeted amount. I think 1074 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,360 Speaker 2: they were trying to raise one hundred pounds, wh should 1075 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,160 Speaker 2: be enough to fund an annuity which would give her 1076 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 2: an annual income for the rest of her life. And 1077 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,760 Speaker 2: they get only two thirds of the way to that target. 1078 00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,880 Speaker 2: And a lot of care is taken through official channels 1079 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,160 Speaker 2: to make sure that James Spollin's wife, the woman who's 1080 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,480 Speaker 2: accused him, is all right, and that she has funds 1081 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 2: to live with her children, and that she's given anonymity 1082 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,560 Speaker 2: in a new place to live. And there is absolutely 1083 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,160 Speaker 2: no record at all in the papers that I've seen 1084 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:37,960 Speaker 2: that anybody from government even once thought of George Little's family. 1085 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,480 Speaker 2: There's no record of a letter, of a visit or 1086 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 2: anything of that nature. It seems that as soon as 1087 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:58,160 Speaker 2: George Little died, the official world just forgot them. 1088 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,200 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crimes stories, check out the 1089 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,120 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 1090 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 1091 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:11,320 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 1092 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,000 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 1093 00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,800 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 1094 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 1: been an exactly Right Production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 1095 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,160 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 1096 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,080 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 1097 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,640 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and 1098 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 1099 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,440 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.