WEBVTT - Camouflage Bias: Part 1 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.596 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. I want to let you know 0:00:23.036 --> 0:00:25.396 we are working right now on season three for you, 0:00:25.676 --> 0:00:27.716 and it's a totally different kind of story than you've 0:00:27.716 --> 0:00:30.956 heard before on this podcast. I've actually been flying all 0:00:30.956 --> 0:00:33.476 over the country reporting it and I can't wait to 0:00:33.476 --> 0:00:37.156 share it with you. But first, Deep Cover is back 0:00:37.516 --> 0:00:40.476 with two special episodes which are kind of a spin 0:00:40.516 --> 0:00:46.556 off of season two. So let's jump right in. About 0:00:46.596 --> 0:00:49.876 a year ago, there was this pretty unusual hearing in Chicago. 0:00:50.556 --> 0:00:54.036 It involved a guy named Ronnie Keraskio who was in 0:00:54.076 --> 0:00:57.076 prison for murder. I've been following the facts of his 0:00:57.196 --> 0:01:00.556 case pretty closely. We actually sent someone to record the 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:01.636 proceedings that day. 0:01:02.316 --> 0:01:03.436 Proceed you right. 0:01:05.036 --> 0:01:08.996 If you stay your full name, Ronny Cutski. 0:01:11.156 --> 0:01:14.156 I was interested in this hearing because it was, in 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:17.156 a strange way connected to the story of Bob Cooley 0:01:19.116 --> 0:01:22.236 back in the nineteen nineties, when Bob exposed the corruption 0:01:22.396 --> 0:01:26.156 that was going on in Chicago, there were ripple effects. 0:01:26.636 --> 0:01:30.716 In these ripple effects, they played out for decades. Ronnie's 0:01:30.716 --> 0:01:34.676 hearing in Chicago it was one of these ripples. It 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:37.676 all started back in the nineteen seventies with the trial 0:01:37.756 --> 0:01:42.236 of Harry Elman. A mob hitman, remember him. This was 0:01:42.276 --> 0:01:43.796 the big case from season two. 0:01:44.716 --> 0:01:50.156 Harry had stone cold eyes. He just did. Harry looked 0:01:50.196 --> 0:01:50.956 pure evil. 0:01:51.156 --> 0:01:53.476 If you ever watched the movie Scarface, kind of reminds 0:01:53.476 --> 0:01:55.836 you of the guy walks up behind Scarface with shotgun 0:01:55.836 --> 0:01:56.236 at the end. 0:01:58.276 --> 0:02:01.476 Harry went on trial for murder and the mob called 0:02:01.476 --> 0:02:04.996 in Bob Cooley to fix the case. Bob claimed he 0:02:05.076 --> 0:02:09.156 bribed the judge, a guy named Frank Wilson, and the 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:13.196 hitman Well, he got off. The not guilty verdict sparked 0:02:13.276 --> 0:02:18.236 controversy and outrage. So what does any of this have 0:02:18.276 --> 0:02:22.676 to do with Ronnie Well? Ronnie's original trial took place 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:26.636 seven months after Harry Almans. It was another high profile 0:02:26.716 --> 0:02:30.356 murder trial. Because the guy Ronnie was accused of murdering 0:02:30.956 --> 0:02:33.876 he was a cop. The case got assigned to the 0:02:33.916 --> 0:02:40.116 same judge, Frank Wilson. Now forty five years later, Ronnie 0:02:40.156 --> 0:02:44.636 is arguing that he was in effect a victim, that 0:02:44.716 --> 0:02:48.356 the sentence he received was deeply unfair. The judge Wilson 0:02:48.476 --> 0:02:51.356 was just trying to burnish his credentials to show he 0:02:51.516 --> 0:02:54.356 was in fact tough on crime, and that because of 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:57.236 all of this and other reasons too. Ronnie is arguing 0:02:57.236 --> 0:03:01.196 that he should have another shot at justice. So over 0:03:01.236 --> 0:03:04.636 the next two episodes, I'll be telling you this story 0:03:05.276 --> 0:03:07.956 about someone whose life has been shaped by the corruption 0:03:08.036 --> 0:03:11.876 that hung over Chicago for decades, and how even now 0:03:12.236 --> 0:03:17.716 twenty twenty two, it's still playing out dramatically as one 0:03:17.796 --> 0:03:22.716 man's freedom hangs in the balance, because well, Ronnie's been 0:03:22.716 --> 0:03:25.876 in prison for almost half a century, and now his 0:03:25.956 --> 0:03:28.476 lawyer is asking all of us to open up the 0:03:28.556 --> 0:03:31.756 history books, to take a good hard look at what 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:35.876 really happened in the shadows, and then to let his 0:03:35.956 --> 0:04:03.556 client walk free. I'm Jay Calburn and this is a 0:04:03.556 --> 0:04:05.436 deep cover Mobland. 0:04:37.596 --> 0:04:40.556 My name is Ronnie cars Gio and a C A 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:43.356 R R A s q U I L O. 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:46.276 Ronnie talks to me on a payphone from his cell block. 0:04:46.556 --> 0:04:50.236 I'm currently UH six three years old. He's sixty four 0:04:50.316 --> 0:04:53.716 years old. In a couple of weeks, I'm currently residing 0:04:53.756 --> 0:04:56.716 in the Distin Correctional Center UH in Illinois. 0:04:57.116 --> 0:05:00.316 We've been communicating for a few months now. When he calls, 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:04.396 a timer starts and we have exactly twenty minutes before disconnected, 0:05:04.996 --> 0:05:06.836 which means there's really not a lot of time for 0:05:06.956 --> 0:05:09.476 chit chat, and Ronnie, he is a lot to tell 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:12.516 me about his life and where and when it all 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:13.436 started to go wrong. 0:05:13.876 --> 0:05:16.596 I grew up in a gang infist. I grew up 0:05:16.596 --> 0:05:20.116 with a single mother, uneducated, a father's divorced when we 0:05:20.116 --> 0:05:20.836 were young kid. 0:05:21.516 --> 0:05:24.396 Back in the nineteen seventies, Ronnie was a poor Puerto 0:05:24.476 --> 0:05:28.076 Rican kid from the Humboldt Park neighborhood of Chicago. His 0:05:28.196 --> 0:05:31.756 dad was a chef who immigrated from Puerto Rico. Ronnie 0:05:31.876 --> 0:05:33.996 he joined a gang at an early age. He was 0:05:34.036 --> 0:05:36.436 a tough kid. He got a tattoo on his arm 0:05:36.516 --> 0:05:41.116 that read mad Dog ron He was eleven at the time. 0:05:42.036 --> 0:05:44.236 His mom died when he was fifteen, and in the 0:05:44.316 --> 0:05:48.716 years that followed, he found himself in some pretty dicey situations. 0:05:49.476 --> 0:05:51.836 And that brings us to the night that changed his 0:05:52.076 --> 0:05:56.076 entire life. It was October of nineteen seventy six. Ronnie 0:05:56.116 --> 0:05:59.676 was eighteen years old. That night, Ronnie says he was 0:05:59.716 --> 0:06:02.636 in rough shape because he'd been stabbed about a month before, 0:06:03.436 --> 0:06:05.836 but he says his friends they convinced him to go out. 0:06:06.676 --> 0:06:10.996 Early in the evening. We went through a party, and 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:13.916 what happened in this party start at six seve o'clock 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:18.956 at night. Everybody's drinking all that long them, so everybody's consuming. 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:21.996 Alcohol, Ronnie says. At some point someone at the party 0:06:22.076 --> 0:06:24.476 stepped out and went to a local tavern to get 0:06:24.556 --> 0:06:28.436 change for the bus, and that's when the trouble started. 0:06:29.476 --> 0:06:32.716 It was with dar skinned Puerto Rican la Fino. The 0:06:32.756 --> 0:06:34.876 Caucasians in the bar felt like, what are you doing 0:06:34.916 --> 0:06:37.036 in here? You don't belong here. He chased them out. 0:06:37.956 --> 0:06:40.516 Now the place where I was seventy five people, maybe 0:06:40.556 --> 0:06:43.796 one hundred people in a party. They all ran down 0:06:43.796 --> 0:06:46.516 the street to go get in the middle of this stuff. 0:06:47.316 --> 0:06:51.916 The situation quickly escalated into a full pitched battle rival gangs, 0:06:52.116 --> 0:06:55.196 one white the other Puerto Rican, like the Jets and 0:06:55.236 --> 0:06:58.116 the Sharks, the whole thing right out of West Side Story, 0:06:58.476 --> 0:07:03.596 only scarier, violent, chaotic. Ronnie says. At first he didn't 0:07:03.596 --> 0:07:04.196 do anything. 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:06.676 I didn't go. I was staying in the house. I 0:07:06.756 --> 0:07:09.996 was stabbed up. I'm just recovering, so I'm the last 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:13.716 guy out. When it towards the end. As I'm leaving 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:16.756 out off the building, there's a kid in the hallway 0:07:17.116 --> 0:07:19.116 and he's got a gun in his hand. He's he's 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:21.836 telling me the guns jam, so I get the gun 0:07:21.836 --> 0:07:27.236 in my hand. That's where I acquired a pistol from. 0:07:27.316 --> 0:07:31.356 So then Ronnie leaves the building and then looks around 0:07:31.636 --> 0:07:37.956 surveys the scene. Now this is where the story takes 0:07:37.956 --> 0:07:41.876 an unexpected turn. There's someone mixed up in the melee 0:07:41.996 --> 0:07:44.916 here who isn't a member of Ronnie's gang or a 0:07:44.956 --> 0:07:48.156 member of the rival White gang either. His name was 0:07:48.236 --> 0:07:51.956 Terence Loftis. He was a Chicago police officer, though that 0:07:51.996 --> 0:07:55.236 wouldn't have been clear because he was dressed in civilian clothing. 0:07:56.436 --> 0:08:00.276 Officer Loftus was there totally by chance. He just finished 0:08:00.276 --> 0:08:02.876 a late shift. He was off duty driving down the 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:06.956 street when he saw this gang battle, and courageously he 0:08:07.076 --> 0:08:12.276 tried to break it up. So there's Officer Loftis. He 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:14.596 grabs hold of one of the guys in Ronnie's gang. 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:18.396 Reports from the time suggest that Loftus was trying to 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:21.276 help this kid to rescue him from the rival gang. 0:08:22.076 --> 0:08:25.516 Somewhere around this time, a paddy wagon with uniform police 0:08:25.556 --> 0:08:30.516 officers arrives on the scene, and then there's Ronnie pistol 0:08:30.596 --> 0:08:34.316 in hand. It's late, almost two in the morning. Ronnie's 0:08:34.316 --> 0:08:36.796 about one hundred and fifty feet away from Officer Loftus. 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:40.316 I've seen everybody running around, so I said, Kalgias fired 0:08:40.316 --> 0:08:42.116 a gun and there'n't a breakoff and a gonna run. 0:08:42.756 --> 0:08:45.356 So Ronnie says he decided to fire the gun at 0:08:45.356 --> 0:08:48.756 an angle above everyone's head to try and scatter the crowd, 0:08:48.956 --> 0:08:51.716 break things up with a few warning shots, you know, 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:54.316 like a sheriff might do in some old timey Western. 0:08:54.596 --> 0:08:59.276 Only Ronnie he was eighteen and intoxicated. Ronnie said he 0:08:59.316 --> 0:09:01.516 had no idea there was a plain closed cop there. 0:09:01.716 --> 0:09:04.876 He also says he never intended to shoot anyone. After all, 0:09:04.916 --> 0:09:06.756 many of the people in the crowd they were his 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:09.436 own friends, and shooting into the crowd it would have 0:09:09.516 --> 0:09:15.396 endangered them, and that's why Ronnie claims he aimed up 0:09:15.676 --> 0:09:19.916 above head level. Now, this detail right here of where 0:09:20.076 --> 0:09:24.836 exactly Ronnie aimed his gun, it's hugely important. It's everything, really, 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:28.516 and there's still disagreement over this to this day. A 0:09:28.556 --> 0:09:31.916 forensic investigation found that three of the bullets struck an 0:09:31.956 --> 0:09:35.556 abandoned building several feet above head level. This would seem 0:09:35.556 --> 0:09:38.396 to corroborate Ronnie's claim that he was aiming the gun up, 0:09:38.716 --> 0:09:42.516 not anyone in particular, but there was at least one 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:46.396 more bullet, and this one it struck Officer Loftus in 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:51.756 the head. His body then crumpled to the ground. Officer 0:09:51.796 --> 0:09:55.516 Loftus was taken to Saint Elizabeth's Hospital. He died a 0:09:55.556 --> 0:10:09.556 few days later. Ronnie was charged with murder. The secutors 0:10:09.556 --> 0:10:14.396 said Ronnie had quote intentionally and knowingly shot Officer Loftis, 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:18.276 meaning he aimed the gun with the intent of killing him. 0:10:18.716 --> 0:10:22.596 At trial, one of Ronnie's buddy's fellow gang member testified. 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:25.596 He said that Ronnie aimed the gun with both hands 0:10:25.876 --> 0:10:29.196 and held at level like he was aiming for Loftis. 0:10:29.756 --> 0:10:32.636 Now I should note that this buddy he may have 0:10:32.676 --> 0:10:36.236 been under real pressure to testify for the prosecution. See 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:39.196 the gun belonged to him, so he could have been 0:10:39.236 --> 0:10:42.796 an accessory to murder. He was never prosecuted, by the way, 0:10:43.796 --> 0:10:47.076 so there were conflicting accounts of where the gun was pointed. 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:50.796 But Ronnie maintains that he wasn't aiming at anyone. 0:10:51.396 --> 0:10:54.716 So I just fired four shots and I left. I 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:57.076 walked out, didn't run. I didn't know I shot anybody. 0:10:57.636 --> 0:10:59.836 I went walked up back in the house, I walked 0:10:59.836 --> 0:11:01.076 out the back door and I left. 0:11:01.716 --> 0:11:04.316 All right, Before we get any deeper, something I should 0:11:04.356 --> 0:11:08.476 mention about this trial. Ronnie he opted for a bench trial, 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:12.756 no jury, just a judge deciding the outcome of his case. 0:11:13.436 --> 0:11:15.956 His trial attorney anticipated that there'd be a ton of 0:11:15.996 --> 0:11:18.436 cops in the courtroom to show their support for the 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:21.996 slain officer. The attorney worried that a jury might be 0:11:22.076 --> 0:11:26.036 swayed by this, so it went to a judge. The 0:11:26.116 --> 0:11:30.076 case was assigned to Judge Frank Wilson, yep, the same 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:34.596 judge who acquitted the hitman, Harry Alamann. Ronnie's lawyer at 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:38.196 the time hoped that Judge Wilson would conclude that technically, 0:11:38.876 --> 0:11:43.956 legally this wasn't murder, that it was manslaughter. The decision 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:46.316 to forego a trial by jury it was a big one. 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:49.956 Judge Wilson would now be the sole arbiter of Ronnie's fate. 0:11:50.636 --> 0:11:53.916 If he decided Ronnie was guilty of manslaughter, well, that's 0:11:53.916 --> 0:11:56.916 a lesser crime than murder, which would carry a smaller sentence. 0:11:57.796 --> 0:12:01.196 But if Judge Wilson found that Ronnie had intended to 0:12:01.276 --> 0:12:04.956 kill Officer Loftus to murder him. Under the rules at 0:12:04.956 --> 0:12:08.516 the time, the judge could throw the book at him. 0:12:08.916 --> 0:12:12.556 The prosecution depicted Ronnie as a cold blooded murderer who 0:12:12.596 --> 0:12:16.716 deliberately aimed and shot the victim. Prosecutors brought innother witnesses, 0:12:17.076 --> 0:12:19.756 friends of Ronnie's, who were there that night. One of 0:12:19.756 --> 0:12:22.956 them testified that Ronnie said something like, I think I 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:27.196 shot a pig. In closing arguments, one of the prosecutors 0:12:27.236 --> 0:12:31.116 said Ronnie quote could not have hit that officer by accident. 0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:36.756 He shot because he had hate in his heart. Judge 0:12:36.756 --> 0:12:41.596 Wilson found Ronnie guilty of murder. Ronnie's current lawyer, Michael Deutsch, 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:44.636 still can't believe what happened next. 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:48.236 The judge gave him two hundred to six hundred years. 0:12:48.396 --> 0:12:51.116 Wait, did you say six hundred years? 0:12:51.356 --> 0:12:54.676 Two hundred to six hundred years he gave them. 0:12:54.996 --> 0:12:57.116 I don't think I've ever heard of anything like that. 0:12:57.436 --> 0:13:00.156 I mean, in your fifty years of practicing law, have 0:13:00.236 --> 0:13:02.116 you ever seen a sentencing like this? 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:05.556 No, never seen a sentence like that. 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:08.916 And Wilson himself, because we went back and looked at 0:13:08.956 --> 0:13:12.276 all all those sentences Wilson has given in the past, 0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:15.996 and all even for murder, all kinds of murders, all 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:18.476 kinds of bus He never gave a sentence like that, 0:13:19.036 --> 0:13:22.156 only once where a guy had a huge prior record. 0:13:23.356 --> 0:13:25.996 Michael Deutsch believes that the timing of all of this 0:13:26.676 --> 0:13:30.116 is suspicious. He notes that the judge had just let 0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:33.796 the hitman, Harry Alamann, walk free, and he believes that 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:36.676 Wilson wanted to make an example out of Ronnie to 0:13:36.756 --> 0:13:40.036 restore his own reputation as a tough judge. 0:13:40.076 --> 0:13:45.516 Wilson took ten thousand dollars to quit Harry Alloman, and 0:13:45.596 --> 0:13:49.356 now he needed what's called compensatory bias. 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:53.156 There's a concept in the law known as compensatory or 0:13:53.356 --> 0:13:57.556 camouflage bias. The idea is a judge takes a bribe 0:13:57.556 --> 0:14:01.516 in one case and then, to avoid suspicion, punishes the 0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:04.876 hell out of another defendant in a separate case, so 0:14:04.956 --> 0:14:07.396 it looks like that judge can be tough on crime. 0:14:08.316 --> 0:14:12.356 Then years later the bribe is exposed and the guy 0:14:12.356 --> 0:14:15.956 who got hit with the big sentence, he complains says, hey, 0:14:16.236 --> 0:14:19.236 this wasn't fair. I got hit with this huge sentence 0:14:19.396 --> 0:14:23.716 because this corrupt judge was covering his tracks. In fact, 0:14:23.796 --> 0:14:26.596 in the wake of Operation Gambat. A number of other 0:14:26.636 --> 0:14:30.676 defendants have made similar claims against other judges in Chicago 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:35.076 whose corruption was exposed by the FBI. Those defendants are 0:14:35.196 --> 0:14:37.956 challenging their sentences, and that's what Ronnie and his lawyer 0:14:37.996 --> 0:14:41.916 are doing. They believe that Ronnie's enormous sentence was a 0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:43.716 symptom of Chicago's corruption. 0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:47.516 I'm the one that brought this case to vacate his 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:51.796 conviction and sentence based on this theory of compensatory bias. 0:14:52.676 --> 0:14:55.356 The judge he needed to cover up what he did. 0:14:55.396 --> 0:14:57.716 It was a lot of outcry about what he did, 0:14:57.836 --> 0:15:00.796 and he was in a situation where he had to 0:15:00.796 --> 0:15:02.876 rehabilitate his reputation. 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:08.356 And here is that ripple effect, an unintended consequence of 0:15:08.396 --> 0:15:12.316 Bob Cooley's actions, a consequence that forever changed the fate 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:16.276 of one man's life. At least that's what Ronnie's lawyer 0:15:16.316 --> 0:15:36.156 is claiming. We'll be right back. It's kind of hard 0:15:36.156 --> 0:15:39.516 to imagine how anyone would react to a prison sentence 0:15:39.716 --> 0:15:42.516 that's two hundred to six hundred years long. 0:15:42.996 --> 0:15:46.316 Can you talk to me about what you remember from 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:48.796 the day that you were sentenced, when that sentence came down, 0:15:50.236 --> 0:15:52.716 Just like what your reaction was, when what went through 0:15:52.756 --> 0:15:53.116 your head. 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:57.396 I didn't know what it meant. I was that illiterate 0:15:57.676 --> 0:15:59.916 as a kid. I know that whole switch on you. 0:16:00.516 --> 0:16:03.196 I don't know what it meant. Didn't register. And when 0:16:03.236 --> 0:16:05.876 I was in flow, I kept hearing like news media 0:16:05.916 --> 0:16:08.036 will come up to me. What you think about Harry Elliman. 0:16:08.396 --> 0:16:10.556 I was so I thought it was a legal term. 0:16:10.836 --> 0:16:14.196 I don't know what it meant until years later I said, oh, 0:16:14.836 --> 0:16:19.676 Allam is a man's name. To wake up and realize, man, 0:16:19.716 --> 0:16:20.396 I'm and sob. 0:16:20.756 --> 0:16:24.396 Ronnie sat in prison for decades. He exhausted his appeals. 0:16:24.996 --> 0:16:28.156 Then a faint hope emerged in the late nineteen nineties 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:31.876 when Ronnie met Michael Deutsch. Michael is a criminal defense 0:16:31.956 --> 0:16:35.636 lawyer with the People's Law Office in Chicago. He's been 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:39.956 doing this work for decades. Michael's represented animal rights activists, 0:16:40.076 --> 0:16:44.116 black panthers, and people with wrongful convictions. You've got a 0:16:44.156 --> 0:16:48.116 social justice issue with long shot odds. Michael, he's your man. 0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:52.316 Michael began taking a closer look at Ronnie's case and 0:16:52.396 --> 0:16:53.916 the judge who presided over it. 0:16:54.876 --> 0:16:57.596 How I got back in court with Michael Deutsch FIU 0:16:57.916 --> 0:17:03.796 A petition that I was void jurisdiction, that Frank Wilson 0:17:03.836 --> 0:17:06.636 had no business sentence in me because he was a 0:17:06.676 --> 0:17:09.796 crook from the beginning and he came ufly l as 0:17:09.836 --> 0:17:11.516 a good judge. 0:17:11.756 --> 0:17:14.676 Just to be clear here, the Harry Alemann case is 0:17:14.676 --> 0:17:17.636 the only case where it was alleged that Judge Wilson 0:17:17.676 --> 0:17:21.316 took a bribe. What's more, neither Ronnie nor his lawyer 0:17:21.476 --> 0:17:24.636 have any definitive proof that Judge Wilson threw his case 0:17:24.716 --> 0:17:29.356 in any way. Ronnie's argument about camouflage bias really hinges 0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:35.276 on a series of speculations. Plausible speculations, but speculations. Nonetheless, 0:17:36.596 --> 0:17:39.916 the core of these speculations come down to this was 0:17:39.996 --> 0:17:44.396 the judge using Ronnie's case to salvage his own reputation. Well, 0:17:44.476 --> 0:17:48.316 let's start by reviewing the facts. After the Harry Alman trial, 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:51.636 there was a big outcry. The state's attorney held a 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:55.556 press conference to express his outrage over the verdict. One 0:17:55.596 --> 0:17:59.796 state legislator called the judge craven. According to Bob Cooley, 0:17:59.876 --> 0:18:02.556 the judge did get very upset after the trial and 0:18:02.636 --> 0:18:07.036 told Bob, quote, you destroyed me. And years later, when 0:18:07.036 --> 0:18:10.316 the FBI was investigating the Aleman case and the corruption 0:18:10.396 --> 0:18:15.436 in Chicago. Wilson killed himself, But what does any of 0:18:15.436 --> 0:18:18.796 this really tell us? For certain? Does this explain why 0:18:18.836 --> 0:18:21.756 the judge handed Ronnie such a long sentence? Do we 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:23.916 really know how Judge Wilson would have ruled at a 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:27.196 different time in his career, or how another judge would 0:18:27.236 --> 0:18:30.796 have ruled at the time. We simply don't. That's what's 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:34.636 so maddening about Ronnie's case and what's so insidious about 0:18:34.676 --> 0:18:38.796 the legacy of corruption in Chicago. The ripple effects continue 0:18:38.836 --> 0:18:45.036 in ways that are so consequential and yet also sometimes unprovable. 0:18:45.916 --> 0:18:50.196 It's odd to think about Ronnie Kerriscio and Harry Alemann 0:18:50.516 --> 0:18:53.636 were both gangsters at some point in their lives. They 0:18:53.716 --> 0:18:55.956 both got in trouble with the law. They were both 0:18:56.036 --> 0:18:59.636 charged with murder. One could argue that the crucial difference 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:03.156 in their fates was that Harry's gang simply had more 0:19:03.196 --> 0:19:08.356 powerful connections, and so he walked free. The question is 0:19:08.756 --> 0:19:12.876 what Ronnie actually do about any of this? Well, what 0:19:12.956 --> 0:19:16.276 Michael and Ronnie wanted was a retrial, a new judge, 0:19:16.276 --> 0:19:18.876 maybe even a jury who could reconsider the facts of 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:21.796 the case and determine whether Ronnie really was guilty of 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:24.796 murder or some lesser charge like manslaughter. 0:19:25.116 --> 0:19:27.276 We had a long hearing in front of the judge, 0:19:27.876 --> 0:19:32.996 and the judge denied us relief, saying the law is 0:19:33.156 --> 0:19:36.876 very difficult to show this because you have to show 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:40.876 a nexus between the case in which the judge was 0:19:41.036 --> 0:19:42.876 bribed and your case. 0:19:43.676 --> 0:19:47.276 The court essentially concluded, we can't know what Judge Wilson 0:19:47.356 --> 0:19:49.436 was thinking at the time, so we can't know for 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:52.716 certain if Ronnie's case was influenced by the Aleman acquittal. 0:19:53.036 --> 0:19:55.756 The three of the court judges would not give me 0:19:56.036 --> 0:19:59.756 the granting off the judge Wilson being a group, saying 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:02.756 that I did improve a bettern that we didn't know 0:20:02.836 --> 0:20:04.756 his state of mind, then we could improve his state 0:20:04.756 --> 0:20:07.756 of mind as far as being a group. So Michael 0:20:07.796 --> 0:20:10.596 Leye's contention was when he got pound up, he shot 0:20:10.636 --> 0:20:13.836 himself in it. So Michael Lewis was stuntending, how do 0:20:13.916 --> 0:20:15.596 you say, we don't know if your state of mind. 0:20:15.956 --> 0:20:18.156 He knew exactly what he was going to do if 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:19.956 he got caught, and he did do it. 0:20:22.236 --> 0:20:25.956 Since that appellate ruling, Ronnie and Michael have soldiered on 0:20:26.556 --> 0:20:29.276 They remain adamant that the facts of the case don't 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:33.916 offer any solid proof that Ronnie knowingly and deliberately intended 0:20:33.956 --> 0:20:37.676 to kill this plain clothes policeman. But this alone isn't 0:20:37.676 --> 0:20:41.636 grounds for a retrial. Appeals are about challenging how a 0:20:41.716 --> 0:20:44.956 case was decided and whether the law was applied properly. 0:20:45.396 --> 0:20:48.356 They're not about re examining the same set of facts. Again. 0:20:49.676 --> 0:20:51.996 Kind of frustrating, right, This is not the kind of 0:20:52.036 --> 0:20:54.876 drama that you typically see on TV, where the story 0:20:54.916 --> 0:20:59.316 has a clear beginning, middle, and end. No, Ronnie's case 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:02.356 is dragged on through a lengthy process of motions and 0:21:02.396 --> 0:21:06.796 appeals and petitions, and so far they've gotten well, very 0:21:06.796 --> 0:21:09.356 little in the way of relief, and in the meantime, 0:21:09.596 --> 0:21:12.036 Ronnie remains behind bars. 0:21:12.516 --> 0:21:18.156 I've been incarcerated forty forty five years, like seven months 0:21:18.156 --> 0:21:22.276 maybe like that. 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:27.036 That's more than five hundred months, more than sixteen thousand days. 0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:31.316 When he was last free, Jimmy Carter was president, the 0:21:31.356 --> 0:21:34.916 Soviet Union was still going strong. There are no smartphones, 0:21:35.436 --> 0:21:39.796 just phone booths, and all that time since then, Ronnie 0:21:39.836 --> 0:21:46.396 he's been well, surprisingly busy. He has this unrelenting positivity. 0:21:46.396 --> 0:21:49.076 In a sense. I'm blessed in here. 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:52.356 He says he's seen what happens when his fellow inmates 0:21:52.556 --> 0:21:54.436 don't stay busy. When they give up. 0:21:54.796 --> 0:21:57.516 I see guys, they lose their faith, and they lose 0:21:57.596 --> 0:22:00.556 their going. They don't sit their pants, They they don't 0:22:00.596 --> 0:22:03.356 go to her Buster's teeth. They just go around and 0:22:03.396 --> 0:22:06.196 then they get sick. So I'm not going to claim 0:22:06.236 --> 0:22:09.676 this over myself. So I keep my spirit up. I run, 0:22:10.036 --> 0:22:13.956 I train ways, I trained sports, you know, and I 0:22:14.036 --> 0:22:14.836 keep going like tent. 0:22:15.716 --> 0:22:19.516 One day last year, Ronnie finally caught a break. The 0:22:19.556 --> 0:22:22.956 court said, in fact, we won't grant you a retrial, 0:22:23.396 --> 0:22:26.916 but we do have some concerns about how you were sentenced. 0:22:27.476 --> 0:22:31.516 They said, we have questions about his sentence because we 0:22:31.596 --> 0:22:35.316 don't we think this sentence might violate the Illinois Constitution, 0:22:35.556 --> 0:22:38.556 which says you have to give a sentence based on 0:22:38.596 --> 0:22:42.356 the serious of the offense, with the idea to returning 0:22:42.396 --> 0:22:45.676 the offender to freedom and citizenship. 0:22:47.396 --> 0:22:50.836 Next time on deep cover, Ronnie has a shot at freedom. 0:22:51.316 --> 0:22:52.796 But there's a catch. 0:22:53.556 --> 0:22:56.076 We don't care almost rehabilitation. Well, you know, the constitution 0:22:56.356 --> 0:22:58.836 says we don't care almost you got up there. We 0:22:58.876 --> 0:23:00.396 don't care about none of that. You kill the police 0:23:00.396 --> 0:23:03.556 officer and they blatantly say, I'm not gonna vote for 0:23:03.596 --> 0:23:04.396 a police killers. 0:23:14.716 --> 0:23:17.676 This episode of deep Cover was produced by Amy Gaines 0:23:17.956 --> 0:23:22.476 and edited by Karen Chakerji. Our managing producers Jacob Smith. 0:23:23.156 --> 0:23:26.436 Original music and our theme was composed by Luis Gara, 0:23:27.036 --> 0:23:31.796 mastering by Jake Gorsky. Mia Label is our executive producer. 0:23:32.436 --> 0:23:37.036 Additional thanks to Jesse de Bartolomeo and Emily Horner, formerly 0:23:37.076 --> 0:23:40.436 of Injustice Watch and now at the Chicago Tribune for 0:23:40.516 --> 0:23:54.196 her reporting on Ronnie's case. I'm Jake Halpern. Deep Cover 0:23:54.316 --> 0:23:57.796 is a production of Pushkin Industries. For ad free listening 0:23:57.796 --> 0:24:01.436 and early access to upcoming seasons of deep Cover, consider 0:24:01.516 --> 0:24:05.356 becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. You can find Pushkin Plus 0:24:05.396 --> 0:24:08.876 on the deep Cover show page on Apple Podcasts, or 0:24:09.156 --> 0:24:10.796 at pushkin dot Fm.