1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,596
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. I want to let you know

2
00:00:23,036 --> 00:00:25,396
Speaker 1: we are working right now on season three for you,

3
00:00:25,676 --> 00:00:27,716
Speaker 1: and it's a totally different kind of story than you've

4
00:00:27,716 --> 00:00:30,956
Speaker 1: heard before on this podcast. I've actually been flying all

5
00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:33,476
Speaker 1: over the country reporting it and I can't wait to

6
00:00:33,476 --> 00:00:37,156
Speaker 1: share it with you. But first, Deep Cover is back

7
00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:40,476
Speaker 1: with two special episodes which are kind of a spin

8
00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:46,556
Speaker 1: off of season two. So let's jump right in. About

9
00:00:46,596 --> 00:00:49,876
Speaker 1: a year ago, there was this pretty unusual hearing in Chicago.

10
00:00:50,556 --> 00:00:54,036
Speaker 1: It involved a guy named Ronnie Keraskio who was in

11
00:00:54,076 --> 00:00:57,076
Speaker 1: prison for murder. I've been following the facts of his

12
00:00:57,196 --> 00:01:00,556
Speaker 1: case pretty closely. We actually sent someone to record the

13
00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:01,636
Speaker 1: proceedings that day.

14
00:01:02,316 --> 00:01:03,436
Speaker 2: Proceed you right.

15
00:01:05,036 --> 00:01:08,996
Speaker 3: If you stay your full name, Ronny Cutski.

16
00:01:11,156 --> 00:01:14,156
Speaker 1: I was interested in this hearing because it was, in

17
00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:17,156
Speaker 1: a strange way connected to the story of Bob Cooley

18
00:01:19,116 --> 00:01:22,236
Speaker 1: back in the nineteen nineties, when Bob exposed the corruption

19
00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:26,156
Speaker 1: that was going on in Chicago, there were ripple effects.

20
00:01:26,636 --> 00:01:30,716
Speaker 1: In these ripple effects, they played out for decades. Ronnie's

21
00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:34,676
Speaker 1: hearing in Chicago it was one of these ripples. It

22
00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:37,676
Speaker 1: all started back in the nineteen seventies with the trial

23
00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:42,236
Speaker 1: of Harry Elman. A mob hitman, remember him. This was

24
00:01:42,276 --> 00:01:43,796
Speaker 1: the big case from season two.

25
00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:50,156
Speaker 3: Harry had stone cold eyes. He just did. Harry looked

26
00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:50,956
Speaker 3: pure evil.

27
00:01:51,156 --> 00:01:53,476
Speaker 2: If you ever watched the movie Scarface, kind of reminds

28
00:01:53,476 --> 00:01:55,836
Speaker 2: you of the guy walks up behind Scarface with shotgun

29
00:01:55,836 --> 00:01:56,236
Speaker 2: at the end.

30
00:01:58,276 --> 00:02:01,476
Speaker 1: Harry went on trial for murder and the mob called

31
00:02:01,476 --> 00:02:04,996
Speaker 1: in Bob Cooley to fix the case. Bob claimed he

32
00:02:05,076 --> 00:02:09,156
Speaker 1: bribed the judge, a guy named Frank Wilson, and the

33
00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:13,196
Speaker 1: hitman Well, he got off. The not guilty verdict sparked

34
00:02:13,276 --> 00:02:18,236
Speaker 1: controversy and outrage. So what does any of this have

35
00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:22,676
Speaker 1: to do with Ronnie Well? Ronnie's original trial took place

36
00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:26,636
Speaker 1: seven months after Harry Almans. It was another high profile

37
00:02:26,716 --> 00:02:30,356
Speaker 1: murder trial. Because the guy Ronnie was accused of murdering

38
00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:33,876
Speaker 1: he was a cop. The case got assigned to the

39
00:02:33,916 --> 00:02:40,116
Speaker 1: same judge, Frank Wilson. Now forty five years later, Ronnie

40
00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:44,636
Speaker 1: is arguing that he was in effect a victim, that

41
00:02:44,716 --> 00:02:48,356
Speaker 1: the sentence he received was deeply unfair. The judge Wilson

42
00:02:48,476 --> 00:02:51,356
Speaker 1: was just trying to burnish his credentials to show he

43
00:02:51,516 --> 00:02:54,356
Speaker 1: was in fact tough on crime, and that because of

44
00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:57,236
Speaker 1: all of this and other reasons too. Ronnie is arguing

45
00:02:57,236 --> 00:03:01,196
Speaker 1: that he should have another shot at justice. So over

46
00:03:01,236 --> 00:03:04,636
Speaker 1: the next two episodes, I'll be telling you this story

47
00:03:05,276 --> 00:03:07,956
Speaker 1: about someone whose life has been shaped by the corruption

48
00:03:08,036 --> 00:03:11,876
Speaker 1: that hung over Chicago for decades, and how even now

49
00:03:12,236 --> 00:03:17,716
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, it's still playing out dramatically as one

50
00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:22,716
Speaker 1: man's freedom hangs in the balance, because well, Ronnie's been

51
00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:25,876
Speaker 1: in prison for almost half a century, and now his

52
00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:28,476
Speaker 1: lawyer is asking all of us to open up the

53
00:03:28,556 --> 00:03:31,756
Speaker 1: history books, to take a good hard look at what

54
00:03:31,996 --> 00:03:35,876
Speaker 1: really happened in the shadows, and then to let his

55
00:03:35,956 --> 00:04:03,556
Speaker 1: client walk free. I'm Jay Calburn and this is a

56
00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:05,436
Speaker 1: deep cover Mobland.

57
00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:40,556
Speaker 4: My name is Ronnie cars Gio and a C A

58
00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:43,356
Speaker 4: R R A s q U I L O.

59
00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:46,276
Speaker 1: Ronnie talks to me on a payphone from his cell block.

60
00:04:46,556 --> 00:04:50,236
Speaker 4: I'm currently UH six three years old. He's sixty four

61
00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:53,716
Speaker 4: years old. In a couple of weeks, I'm currently residing

62
00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:56,716
Speaker 4: in the Distin Correctional Center UH in Illinois.

63
00:04:57,116 --> 00:05:00,316
Speaker 1: We've been communicating for a few months now. When he calls,

64
00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:04,396
Speaker 1: a timer starts and we have exactly twenty minutes before disconnected,

65
00:05:04,996 --> 00:05:06,836
Speaker 1: which means there's really not a lot of time for

66
00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:09,476
Speaker 1: chit chat, and Ronnie, he is a lot to tell

67
00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:12,516
Speaker 1: me about his life and where and when it all

68
00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:13,436
Speaker 1: started to go wrong.

69
00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:16,596
Speaker 4: I grew up in a gang infist. I grew up

70
00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:20,116
Speaker 4: with a single mother, uneducated, a father's divorced when we

71
00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:20,836
Speaker 4: were young kid.

72
00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:24,396
Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen seventies, Ronnie was a poor Puerto

73
00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:28,076
Speaker 1: Rican kid from the Humboldt Park neighborhood of Chicago. His

74
00:05:28,196 --> 00:05:31,756
Speaker 1: dad was a chef who immigrated from Puerto Rico. Ronnie

75
00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:33,996
Speaker 1: he joined a gang at an early age. He was

76
00:05:34,036 --> 00:05:36,436
Speaker 1: a tough kid. He got a tattoo on his arm

77
00:05:36,516 --> 00:05:41,116
Speaker 1: that read mad Dog ron He was eleven at the time.

78
00:05:42,036 --> 00:05:44,236
Speaker 1: His mom died when he was fifteen, and in the

79
00:05:44,316 --> 00:05:48,716
Speaker 1: years that followed, he found himself in some pretty dicey situations.

80
00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:51,836
Speaker 1: And that brings us to the night that changed his

81
00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:56,076
Speaker 1: entire life. It was October of nineteen seventy six. Ronnie

82
00:05:56,116 --> 00:05:59,676
Speaker 1: was eighteen years old. That night, Ronnie says he was

83
00:05:59,716 --> 00:06:02,636
Speaker 1: in rough shape because he'd been stabbed about a month before,

84
00:06:03,436 --> 00:06:05,836
Speaker 1: but he says his friends they convinced him to go out.

85
00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:10,996
Speaker 4: Early in the evening. We went through a party, and

86
00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,916
Speaker 4: what happened in this party start at six seve o'clock

87
00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:18,956
Speaker 4: at night. Everybody's drinking all that long them, so everybody's consuming.

88
00:06:18,556 --> 00:06:21,996
Speaker 1: Alcohol, Ronnie says. At some point someone at the party

89
00:06:22,076 --> 00:06:24,476
Speaker 1: stepped out and went to a local tavern to get

90
00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:28,436
Speaker 1: change for the bus, and that's when the trouble started.

91
00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:32,716
Speaker 4: It was with dar skinned Puerto Rican la Fino. The

92
00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:34,876
Speaker 4: Caucasians in the bar felt like, what are you doing

93
00:06:34,916 --> 00:06:37,036
Speaker 4: in here? You don't belong here. He chased them out.

94
00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:40,516
Speaker 4: Now the place where I was seventy five people, maybe

95
00:06:40,556 --> 00:06:43,796
Speaker 4: one hundred people in a party. They all ran down

96
00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:46,516
Speaker 4: the street to go get in the middle of this stuff.

97
00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:51,916
Speaker 1: The situation quickly escalated into a full pitched battle rival gangs,

98
00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:55,196
Speaker 1: one white the other Puerto Rican, like the Jets and

99
00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:58,116
Speaker 1: the Sharks, the whole thing right out of West Side Story,

100
00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:03,596
Speaker 1: only scarier, violent, chaotic. Ronnie says. At first he didn't

101
00:07:03,596 --> 00:07:04,196
Speaker 1: do anything.

102
00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:06,676
Speaker 4: I didn't go. I was staying in the house. I

103
00:07:06,756 --> 00:07:09,996
Speaker 4: was stabbed up. I'm just recovering, so I'm the last

104
00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:13,716
Speaker 4: guy out. When it towards the end. As I'm leaving

105
00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:16,756
Speaker 4: out off the building, there's a kid in the hallway

106
00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:19,116
Speaker 4: and he's got a gun in his hand. He's he's

107
00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:21,836
Speaker 4: telling me the guns jam, so I get the gun

108
00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:27,236
Speaker 4: in my hand. That's where I acquired a pistol from.

109
00:07:27,316 --> 00:07:31,356
Speaker 1: So then Ronnie leaves the building and then looks around

110
00:07:31,636 --> 00:07:37,956
Speaker 1: surveys the scene. Now this is where the story takes

111
00:07:37,956 --> 00:07:41,876
Speaker 1: an unexpected turn. There's someone mixed up in the melee

112
00:07:41,996 --> 00:07:44,916
Speaker 1: here who isn't a member of Ronnie's gang or a

113
00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:48,156
Speaker 1: member of the rival White gang either. His name was

114
00:07:48,236 --> 00:07:51,956
Speaker 1: Terence Loftis. He was a Chicago police officer, though that

115
00:07:51,996 --> 00:07:55,236
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been clear because he was dressed in civilian clothing.

116
00:07:56,436 --> 00:08:00,276
Speaker 1: Officer Loftus was there totally by chance. He just finished

117
00:08:00,276 --> 00:08:02,876
Speaker 1: a late shift. He was off duty driving down the

118
00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:06,956
Speaker 1: street when he saw this gang battle, and courageously he

119
00:08:07,076 --> 00:08:12,276
Speaker 1: tried to break it up. So there's Officer Loftis. He

120
00:08:12,316 --> 00:08:14,596
Speaker 1: grabs hold of one of the guys in Ronnie's gang.

121
00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:18,396
Speaker 1: Reports from the time suggest that Loftus was trying to

122
00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:21,276
Speaker 1: help this kid to rescue him from the rival gang.

123
00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:25,516
Speaker 1: Somewhere around this time, a paddy wagon with uniform police

124
00:08:25,556 --> 00:08:30,516
Speaker 1: officers arrives on the scene, and then there's Ronnie pistol

125
00:08:30,596 --> 00:08:34,316
Speaker 1: in hand. It's late, almost two in the morning. Ronnie's

126
00:08:34,316 --> 00:08:36,796
Speaker 1: about one hundred and fifty feet away from Officer Loftus.

127
00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:40,316
Speaker 4: I've seen everybody running around, so I said, Kalgias fired

128
00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:42,116
Speaker 4: a gun and there'n't a breakoff and a gonna run.

129
00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:45,356
Speaker 1: So Ronnie says he decided to fire the gun at

130
00:08:45,356 --> 00:08:48,756
Speaker 1: an angle above everyone's head to try and scatter the crowd,

131
00:08:48,956 --> 00:08:51,716
Speaker 1: break things up with a few warning shots, you know,

132
00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:54,316
Speaker 1: like a sheriff might do in some old timey Western.

133
00:08:54,596 --> 00:08:59,276
Speaker 1: Only Ronnie he was eighteen and intoxicated. Ronnie said he

134
00:08:59,316 --> 00:09:01,516
Speaker 1: had no idea there was a plain closed cop there.

135
00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:04,876
Speaker 1: He also says he never intended to shoot anyone. After all,

136
00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:06,756
Speaker 1: many of the people in the crowd they were his

137
00:09:06,756 --> 00:09:09,436
Speaker 1: own friends, and shooting into the crowd it would have

138
00:09:09,516 --> 00:09:15,396
Speaker 1: endangered them, and that's why Ronnie claims he aimed up

139
00:09:15,676 --> 00:09:19,916
Speaker 1: above head level. Now, this detail right here of where

140
00:09:20,076 --> 00:09:24,836
Speaker 1: exactly Ronnie aimed his gun, it's hugely important. It's everything, really,

141
00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:28,516
Speaker 1: and there's still disagreement over this to this day. A

142
00:09:28,556 --> 00:09:31,916
Speaker 1: forensic investigation found that three of the bullets struck an

143
00:09:31,956 --> 00:09:35,556
Speaker 1: abandoned building several feet above head level. This would seem

144
00:09:35,556 --> 00:09:38,396
Speaker 1: to corroborate Ronnie's claim that he was aiming the gun up,

145
00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:42,516
Speaker 1: not anyone in particular, but there was at least one

146
00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:46,396
Speaker 1: more bullet, and this one it struck Officer Loftus in

147
00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:51,756
Speaker 1: the head. His body then crumpled to the ground. Officer

148
00:09:51,796 --> 00:09:55,516
Speaker 1: Loftus was taken to Saint Elizabeth's Hospital. He died a

149
00:09:55,556 --> 00:10:09,556
Speaker 1: few days later. Ronnie was charged with murder. The secutors

150
00:10:09,556 --> 00:10:14,396
Speaker 1: said Ronnie had quote intentionally and knowingly shot Officer Loftis,

151
00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,276
Speaker 1: meaning he aimed the gun with the intent of killing him.

152
00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:22,596
Speaker 1: At trial, one of Ronnie's buddy's fellow gang member testified.

153
00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:25,596
Speaker 1: He said that Ronnie aimed the gun with both hands

154
00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:29,196
Speaker 1: and held at level like he was aiming for Loftis.

155
00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:32,636
Speaker 1: Now I should note that this buddy he may have

156
00:10:32,676 --> 00:10:36,236
Speaker 1: been under real pressure to testify for the prosecution. See

157
00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:39,196
Speaker 1: the gun belonged to him, so he could have been

158
00:10:39,236 --> 00:10:42,796
Speaker 1: an accessory to murder. He was never prosecuted, by the way,

159
00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:47,076
Speaker 1: so there were conflicting accounts of where the gun was pointed.

160
00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:50,796
Speaker 1: But Ronnie maintains that he wasn't aiming at anyone.

161
00:10:51,396 --> 00:10:54,716
Speaker 4: So I just fired four shots and I left. I

162
00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:57,076
Speaker 4: walked out, didn't run. I didn't know I shot anybody.

163
00:10:57,636 --> 00:10:59,836
Speaker 4: I went walked up back in the house, I walked

164
00:10:59,836 --> 00:11:01,076
Speaker 4: out the back door and I left.

165
00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,316
Speaker 1: All right, Before we get any deeper, something I should

166
00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:08,476
Speaker 1: mention about this trial. Ronnie he opted for a bench trial,

167
00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:12,756
Speaker 1: no jury, just a judge deciding the outcome of his case.

168
00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:15,956
Speaker 1: His trial attorney anticipated that there'd be a ton of

169
00:11:15,996 --> 00:11:18,436
Speaker 1: cops in the courtroom to show their support for the

170
00:11:18,436 --> 00:11:21,996
Speaker 1: slain officer. The attorney worried that a jury might be

171
00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:26,036
Speaker 1: swayed by this, so it went to a judge. The

172
00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:30,076
Speaker 1: case was assigned to Judge Frank Wilson, yep, the same

173
00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:34,596
Speaker 1: judge who acquitted the hitman, Harry Alamann. Ronnie's lawyer at

174
00:11:34,596 --> 00:11:38,196
Speaker 1: the time hoped that Judge Wilson would conclude that technically,

175
00:11:38,876 --> 00:11:43,956
Speaker 1: legally this wasn't murder, that it was manslaughter. The decision

176
00:11:43,956 --> 00:11:46,316
Speaker 1: to forego a trial by jury it was a big one.

177
00:11:46,676 --> 00:11:49,956
Speaker 1: Judge Wilson would now be the sole arbiter of Ronnie's fate.

178
00:11:50,636 --> 00:11:53,916
Speaker 1: If he decided Ronnie was guilty of manslaughter, well, that's

179
00:11:53,916 --> 00:11:56,916
Speaker 1: a lesser crime than murder, which would carry a smaller sentence.

180
00:11:57,796 --> 00:12:01,196
Speaker 1: But if Judge Wilson found that Ronnie had intended to

181
00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:04,956
Speaker 1: kill Officer Loftus to murder him. Under the rules at

182
00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:08,516
Speaker 1: the time, the judge could throw the book at him.

183
00:12:08,916 --> 00:12:12,556
Speaker 1: The prosecution depicted Ronnie as a cold blooded murderer who

184
00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:16,716
Speaker 1: deliberately aimed and shot the victim. Prosecutors brought innother witnesses,

185
00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:19,756
Speaker 1: friends of Ronnie's, who were there that night. One of

186
00:12:19,756 --> 00:12:22,956
Speaker 1: them testified that Ronnie said something like, I think I

187
00:12:23,036 --> 00:12:27,196
Speaker 1: shot a pig. In closing arguments, one of the prosecutors

188
00:12:27,236 --> 00:12:31,116
Speaker 1: said Ronnie quote could not have hit that officer by accident.

189
00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:36,756
Speaker 1: He shot because he had hate in his heart. Judge

190
00:12:36,756 --> 00:12:41,596
Speaker 1: Wilson found Ronnie guilty of murder. Ronnie's current lawyer, Michael Deutsch,

191
00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:44,636
Speaker 1: still can't believe what happened next.

192
00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:48,236
Speaker 3: The judge gave him two hundred to six hundred years.

193
00:12:48,396 --> 00:12:51,116
Speaker 1: Wait, did you say six hundred years?

194
00:12:51,356 --> 00:12:54,676
Speaker 3: Two hundred to six hundred years he gave them.

195
00:12:54,996 --> 00:12:57,116
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard of anything like that.

196
00:12:57,436 --> 00:13:00,156
Speaker 1: I mean, in your fifty years of practicing law, have

197
00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:02,116
Speaker 1: you ever seen a sentencing like this?

198
00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:05,556
Speaker 3: No, never seen a sentence like that.

199
00:13:05,756 --> 00:13:08,916
Speaker 5: And Wilson himself, because we went back and looked at

200
00:13:08,956 --> 00:13:12,276
Speaker 5: all all those sentences Wilson has given in the past,

201
00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:15,996
Speaker 5: and all even for murder, all kinds of murders, all

202
00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:18,476
Speaker 5: kinds of bus He never gave a sentence like that,

203
00:13:19,036 --> 00:13:22,156
Speaker 5: only once where a guy had a huge prior record.

204
00:13:23,356 --> 00:13:25,996
Speaker 1: Michael Deutsch believes that the timing of all of this

205
00:13:26,676 --> 00:13:30,116
Speaker 1: is suspicious. He notes that the judge had just let

206
00:13:30,196 --> 00:13:33,796
Speaker 1: the hitman, Harry Alamann, walk free, and he believes that

207
00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:36,676
Speaker 1: Wilson wanted to make an example out of Ronnie to

208
00:13:36,756 --> 00:13:40,036
Speaker 1: restore his own reputation as a tough judge.

209
00:13:40,076 --> 00:13:45,516
Speaker 5: Wilson took ten thousand dollars to quit Harry Alloman, and

210
00:13:45,596 --> 00:13:49,356
Speaker 5: now he needed what's called compensatory bias.

211
00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:53,156
Speaker 1: There's a concept in the law known as compensatory or

212
00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:57,556
Speaker 1: camouflage bias. The idea is a judge takes a bribe

213
00:13:57,556 --> 00:14:01,516
Speaker 1: in one case and then, to avoid suspicion, punishes the

214
00:14:01,556 --> 00:14:04,876
Speaker 1: hell out of another defendant in a separate case, so

215
00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:07,396
Speaker 1: it looks like that judge can be tough on crime.

216
00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:12,356
Speaker 1: Then years later the bribe is exposed and the guy

217
00:14:12,356 --> 00:14:15,956
Speaker 1: who got hit with the big sentence, he complains says, hey,

218
00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:19,236
Speaker 1: this wasn't fair. I got hit with this huge sentence

219
00:14:19,396 --> 00:14:23,716
Speaker 1: because this corrupt judge was covering his tracks. In fact,

220
00:14:23,796 --> 00:14:26,596
Speaker 1: in the wake of Operation Gambat. A number of other

221
00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:30,676
Speaker 1: defendants have made similar claims against other judges in Chicago

222
00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:35,076
Speaker 1: whose corruption was exposed by the FBI. Those defendants are

223
00:14:35,196 --> 00:14:37,956
Speaker 1: challenging their sentences, and that's what Ronnie and his lawyer

224
00:14:37,996 --> 00:14:41,916
Speaker 1: are doing. They believe that Ronnie's enormous sentence was a

225
00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:43,716
Speaker 1: symptom of Chicago's corruption.

226
00:14:44,476 --> 00:14:47,516
Speaker 5: I'm the one that brought this case to vacate his

227
00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:51,796
Speaker 5: conviction and sentence based on this theory of compensatory bias.

228
00:14:52,676 --> 00:14:55,356
Speaker 3: The judge he needed to cover up what he did.

229
00:14:55,396 --> 00:14:57,716
Speaker 5: It was a lot of outcry about what he did,

230
00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:00,796
Speaker 5: and he was in a situation where he had to

231
00:15:00,796 --> 00:15:02,876
Speaker 5: rehabilitate his reputation.

232
00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:08,356
Speaker 1: And here is that ripple effect, an unintended consequence of

233
00:15:08,396 --> 00:15:12,316
Speaker 1: Bob Cooley's actions, a consequence that forever changed the fate

234
00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:16,276
Speaker 1: of one man's life. At least that's what Ronnie's lawyer

235
00:15:16,316 --> 00:15:36,156
Speaker 1: is claiming. We'll be right back. It's kind of hard

236
00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:39,516
Speaker 1: to imagine how anyone would react to a prison sentence

237
00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:42,516
Speaker 1: that's two hundred to six hundred years long.

238
00:15:42,996 --> 00:15:46,316
Speaker 2: Can you talk to me about what you remember from

239
00:15:46,316 --> 00:15:48,796
Speaker 2: the day that you were sentenced, when that sentence came down,

240
00:15:50,236 --> 00:15:52,716
Speaker 2: Just like what your reaction was, when what went through

241
00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:53,116
Speaker 2: your head.

242
00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:57,396
Speaker 4: I didn't know what it meant. I was that illiterate

243
00:15:57,676 --> 00:15:59,916
Speaker 4: as a kid. I know that whole switch on you.

244
00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:03,196
Speaker 4: I don't know what it meant. Didn't register. And when

245
00:16:03,236 --> 00:16:05,876
Speaker 4: I was in flow, I kept hearing like news media

246
00:16:05,916 --> 00:16:08,036
Speaker 4: will come up to me. What you think about Harry Elliman.

247
00:16:08,396 --> 00:16:10,556
Speaker 4: I was so I thought it was a legal term.

248
00:16:10,836 --> 00:16:14,196
Speaker 4: I don't know what it meant until years later I said, oh,

249
00:16:14,836 --> 00:16:19,676
Speaker 4: Allam is a man's name. To wake up and realize, man,

250
00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:20,396
Speaker 4: I'm and sob.

251
00:16:20,756 --> 00:16:24,396
Speaker 1: Ronnie sat in prison for decades. He exhausted his appeals.

252
00:16:24,996 --> 00:16:28,156
Speaker 1: Then a faint hope emerged in the late nineteen nineties

253
00:16:28,356 --> 00:16:31,876
Speaker 1: when Ronnie met Michael Deutsch. Michael is a criminal defense

254
00:16:31,956 --> 00:16:35,636
Speaker 1: lawyer with the People's Law Office in Chicago. He's been

255
00:16:35,676 --> 00:16:39,956
Speaker 1: doing this work for decades. Michael's represented animal rights activists,

256
00:16:40,076 --> 00:16:44,116
Speaker 1: black panthers, and people with wrongful convictions. You've got a

257
00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:48,116
Speaker 1: social justice issue with long shot odds. Michael, he's your man.

258
00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:52,316
Speaker 1: Michael began taking a closer look at Ronnie's case and

259
00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:53,916
Speaker 1: the judge who presided over it.

260
00:16:54,876 --> 00:16:57,596
Speaker 4: How I got back in court with Michael Deutsch FIU

261
00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:03,796
Speaker 4: A petition that I was void jurisdiction, that Frank Wilson

262
00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:06,636
Speaker 4: had no business sentence in me because he was a

263
00:17:06,676 --> 00:17:09,796
Speaker 4: crook from the beginning and he came ufly l as

264
00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:11,516
Speaker 4: a good judge.

265
00:17:11,756 --> 00:17:14,676
Speaker 1: Just to be clear here, the Harry Alemann case is

266
00:17:14,676 --> 00:17:17,636
Speaker 1: the only case where it was alleged that Judge Wilson

267
00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:21,316
Speaker 1: took a bribe. What's more, neither Ronnie nor his lawyer

268
00:17:21,476 --> 00:17:24,636
Speaker 1: have any definitive proof that Judge Wilson threw his case

269
00:17:24,716 --> 00:17:29,356
Speaker 1: in any way. Ronnie's argument about camouflage bias really hinges

270
00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:35,276
Speaker 1: on a series of speculations. Plausible speculations, but speculations. Nonetheless,

271
00:17:36,596 --> 00:17:39,916
Speaker 1: the core of these speculations come down to this was

272
00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:44,396
Speaker 1: the judge using Ronnie's case to salvage his own reputation. Well,

273
00:17:44,476 --> 00:17:48,316
Speaker 1: let's start by reviewing the facts. After the Harry Alman trial,

274
00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:51,636
Speaker 1: there was a big outcry. The state's attorney held a

275
00:17:51,676 --> 00:17:55,556
Speaker 1: press conference to express his outrage over the verdict. One

276
00:17:55,596 --> 00:17:59,796
Speaker 1: state legislator called the judge craven. According to Bob Cooley,

277
00:17:59,876 --> 00:18:02,556
Speaker 1: the judge did get very upset after the trial and

278
00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:07,036
Speaker 1: told Bob, quote, you destroyed me. And years later, when

279
00:18:07,036 --> 00:18:10,316
Speaker 1: the FBI was investigating the Aleman case and the corruption

280
00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:15,436
Speaker 1: in Chicago. Wilson killed himself, But what does any of

281
00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:18,796
Speaker 1: this really tell us? For certain? Does this explain why

282
00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:21,756
Speaker 1: the judge handed Ronnie such a long sentence? Do we

283
00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:23,916
Speaker 1: really know how Judge Wilson would have ruled at a

284
00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:27,196
Speaker 1: different time in his career, or how another judge would

285
00:18:27,236 --> 00:18:30,796
Speaker 1: have ruled at the time. We simply don't. That's what's

286
00:18:30,876 --> 00:18:34,636
Speaker 1: so maddening about Ronnie's case and what's so insidious about

287
00:18:34,676 --> 00:18:38,796
Speaker 1: the legacy of corruption in Chicago. The ripple effects continue

288
00:18:38,836 --> 00:18:45,036
Speaker 1: in ways that are so consequential and yet also sometimes unprovable.

289
00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:50,196
Speaker 1: It's odd to think about Ronnie Kerriscio and Harry Alemann

290
00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:53,636
Speaker 1: were both gangsters at some point in their lives. They

291
00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:55,956
Speaker 1: both got in trouble with the law. They were both

292
00:18:56,036 --> 00:18:59,636
Speaker 1: charged with murder. One could argue that the crucial difference

293
00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:03,156
Speaker 1: in their fates was that Harry's gang simply had more

294
00:19:03,196 --> 00:19:08,356
Speaker 1: powerful connections, and so he walked free. The question is

295
00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:12,876
Speaker 1: what Ronnie actually do about any of this? Well, what

296
00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:16,276
Speaker 1: Michael and Ronnie wanted was a retrial, a new judge,

297
00:19:16,276 --> 00:19:18,876
Speaker 1: maybe even a jury who could reconsider the facts of

298
00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,796
Speaker 1: the case and determine whether Ronnie really was guilty of

299
00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:24,796
Speaker 1: murder or some lesser charge like manslaughter.

300
00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:27,276
Speaker 3: We had a long hearing in front of the judge,

301
00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:32,996
Speaker 3: and the judge denied us relief, saying the law is

302
00:19:33,156 --> 00:19:36,876
Speaker 3: very difficult to show this because you have to show

303
00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:40,876
Speaker 3: a nexus between the case in which the judge was

304
00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:42,876
Speaker 3: bribed and your case.

305
00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:47,276
Speaker 1: The court essentially concluded, we can't know what Judge Wilson

306
00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:49,436
Speaker 1: was thinking at the time, so we can't know for

307
00:19:49,516 --> 00:19:52,716
Speaker 1: certain if Ronnie's case was influenced by the Aleman acquittal.

308
00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:55,756
Speaker 4: The three of the court judges would not give me

309
00:19:56,036 --> 00:19:59,756
Speaker 4: the granting off the judge Wilson being a group, saying

310
00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:02,756
Speaker 4: that I did improve a bettern that we didn't know

311
00:20:02,836 --> 00:20:04,756
Speaker 4: his state of mind, then we could improve his state

312
00:20:04,756 --> 00:20:07,756
Speaker 4: of mind as far as being a group. So Michael

313
00:20:07,796 --> 00:20:10,596
Speaker 4: Leye's contention was when he got pound up, he shot

314
00:20:10,636 --> 00:20:13,836
Speaker 4: himself in it. So Michael Lewis was stuntending, how do

315
00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:15,596
Speaker 4: you say, we don't know if your state of mind.

316
00:20:15,956 --> 00:20:18,156
Speaker 4: He knew exactly what he was going to do if

317
00:20:18,156 --> 00:20:19,956
Speaker 4: he got caught, and he did do it.

318
00:20:22,236 --> 00:20:25,956
Speaker 1: Since that appellate ruling, Ronnie and Michael have soldiered on

319
00:20:26,556 --> 00:20:29,276
Speaker 1: They remain adamant that the facts of the case don't

320
00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:33,916
Speaker 1: offer any solid proof that Ronnie knowingly and deliberately intended

321
00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:37,676
Speaker 1: to kill this plain clothes policeman. But this alone isn't

322
00:20:37,676 --> 00:20:41,636
Speaker 1: grounds for a retrial. Appeals are about challenging how a

323
00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:44,956
Speaker 1: case was decided and whether the law was applied properly.

324
00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:48,356
Speaker 1: They're not about re examining the same set of facts. Again.

325
00:20:49,676 --> 00:20:51,996
Speaker 1: Kind of frustrating, right, This is not the kind of

326
00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:54,876
Speaker 1: drama that you typically see on TV, where the story

327
00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:59,316
Speaker 1: has a clear beginning, middle, and end. No, Ronnie's case

328
00:20:59,396 --> 00:21:02,356
Speaker 1: is dragged on through a lengthy process of motions and

329
00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:06,796
Speaker 1: appeals and petitions, and so far they've gotten well, very

330
00:21:06,796 --> 00:21:09,356
Speaker 1: little in the way of relief, and in the meantime,

331
00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:12,036
Speaker 1: Ronnie remains behind bars.

332
00:21:12,516 --> 00:21:18,156
Speaker 4: I've been incarcerated forty forty five years, like seven months

333
00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:22,276
Speaker 4: maybe like that.

334
00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:27,036
Speaker 1: That's more than five hundred months, more than sixteen thousand days.

335
00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:31,316
Speaker 1: When he was last free, Jimmy Carter was president, the

336
00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:34,916
Speaker 1: Soviet Union was still going strong. There are no smartphones,

337
00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:39,796
Speaker 1: just phone booths, and all that time since then, Ronnie

338
00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:46,396
Speaker 1: he's been well, surprisingly busy. He has this unrelenting positivity.

339
00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:49,076
Speaker 4: In a sense. I'm blessed in here.

340
00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:52,356
Speaker 1: He says he's seen what happens when his fellow inmates

341
00:21:52,556 --> 00:21:54,436
Speaker 1: don't stay busy. When they give up.

342
00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:57,516
Speaker 4: I see guys, they lose their faith, and they lose

343
00:21:57,596 --> 00:22:00,556
Speaker 4: their going. They don't sit their pants, They they don't

344
00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:03,356
Speaker 4: go to her Buster's teeth. They just go around and

345
00:22:03,396 --> 00:22:06,196
Speaker 4: then they get sick. So I'm not going to claim

346
00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,676
Speaker 4: this over myself. So I keep my spirit up. I run,

347
00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:13,956
Speaker 4: I train ways, I trained sports, you know, and I

348
00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:14,836
Speaker 4: keep going like tent.

349
00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:19,516
Speaker 1: One day last year, Ronnie finally caught a break. The

350
00:22:19,556 --> 00:22:22,956
Speaker 1: court said, in fact, we won't grant you a retrial,

351
00:22:23,396 --> 00:22:26,916
Speaker 1: but we do have some concerns about how you were sentenced.

352
00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:31,516
Speaker 5: They said, we have questions about his sentence because we

353
00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:35,316
Speaker 5: don't we think this sentence might violate the Illinois Constitution,

354
00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:38,556
Speaker 5: which says you have to give a sentence based on

355
00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:42,356
Speaker 5: the serious of the offense, with the idea to returning

356
00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:45,676
Speaker 5: the offender to freedom and citizenship.

357
00:22:47,396 --> 00:22:50,836
Speaker 1: Next time on deep cover, Ronnie has a shot at freedom.

358
00:22:51,316 --> 00:22:52,796
Speaker 1: But there's a catch.

359
00:22:53,556 --> 00:22:56,076
Speaker 4: We don't care almost rehabilitation. Well, you know, the constitution

360
00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:58,836
Speaker 4: says we don't care almost you got up there. We

361
00:22:58,876 --> 00:23:00,396
Speaker 4: don't care about none of that. You kill the police

362
00:23:00,396 --> 00:23:03,556
Speaker 4: officer and they blatantly say, I'm not gonna vote for

363
00:23:03,596 --> 00:23:04,396
Speaker 4: a police killers.

364
00:23:14,716 --> 00:23:17,676
Speaker 1: This episode of deep Cover was produced by Amy Gaines

365
00:23:17,956 --> 00:23:22,476
Speaker 1: and edited by Karen Chakerji. Our managing producers Jacob Smith.

366
00:23:23,156 --> 00:23:26,436
Speaker 1: Original music and our theme was composed by Luis Gara,

367
00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:31,796
Speaker 1: mastering by Jake Gorsky. Mia Label is our executive producer.

368
00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:37,036
Speaker 1: Additional thanks to Jesse de Bartolomeo and Emily Horner, formerly

369
00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:40,436
Speaker 1: of Injustice Watch and now at the Chicago Tribune for

370
00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:54,196
Speaker 1: her reporting on Ronnie's case. I'm Jake Halpern. Deep Cover

371
00:23:54,316 --> 00:23:57,796
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. For ad free listening

372
00:23:57,796 --> 00:24:01,436
Speaker 1: and early access to upcoming seasons of deep Cover, consider

373
00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:05,356
Speaker 1: becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. You can find Pushkin Plus

374
00:24:05,396 --> 00:24:08,876
Speaker 1: on the deep Cover show page on Apple Podcasts, or

375
00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:10,796
Speaker 1: at pushkin dot Fm.