WEBVTT - Abducted in Plain Sight - Twice: How Jan Broberg Survived

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<v Speaker 1>A young girl abducted and sexually abused by a family friend,

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<v Speaker 1>not once, but twice. That is the jaw dropping headline

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<v Speaker 1>of the Jan Broberg story, which is chronicled in a

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<v Speaker 1>Netflix documentary and a series featuring Colin Hanks. On Peacock Now,

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<v Speaker 1>Jan is opening up about her experience, revealing details she's

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<v Speaker 1>never shared before. How was a friendly church going neighbor

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<v Speaker 1>able to infiltrate Jan's loving family? What led to her

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<v Speaker 1>being kidnapped a second time by the same person? How

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<v Speaker 1>was her abductor able to evade authorities? Today? Jan shares

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<v Speaker 1>her captivating story of surviving a psychopath hiding in plain

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<v Speaker 1>sight from Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia. I'm Doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not

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<v Speaker 1>be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice.

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<v Speaker 1>Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and

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<v Speaker 1>or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any

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<v Speaker 1>medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters

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<v Speaker 1>discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse and suicide,

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<v Speaker 1>which may be triggering to some people. The views and

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<v Speaker 1>opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or

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<v Speaker 1>individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the

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<v Speaker 1>opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Jan.

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<v Speaker 1>I cannot tell you how happy I am to have

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<v Speaker 1>you here to meet you. My sister and I have

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<v Speaker 1>been following your journey. My sister in particular, who said

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<v Speaker 1>you really need to talk to Jan Broberg. We've read

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<v Speaker 1>your book, We've watched all the shows. It has been profound,

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<v Speaker 1>it has been impactful. But above all else, I cannot

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<v Speaker 1>tell you what a blessing is that I get to

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<v Speaker 1>have you right here live.

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<v Speaker 2>So thank you, oh doctor Rominey, thank you for having

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<v Speaker 2>me because I really admire what you do.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you quick headline of your stories. It's almost impossible

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<v Speaker 1>to imagine you're a young girl. You were abducted not once,

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<v Speaker 1>but twice by a close family friend. What happened is

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<v Speaker 1>so much deeper than the story of this perpetrator and

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<v Speaker 1>what he did. He not only groomed you, he groomed

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<v Speaker 1>your entire family in a campaign that the likes of

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<v Speaker 1>which most of us have never seen. So can you

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<v Speaker 1>share that just to bring everyone listening up to speed

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<v Speaker 1>in case they don't know your story.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be happy to because I often find that people

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<v Speaker 2>are very unaware of what grooming is. Yes, So when

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<v Speaker 2>this man and his wife and his five children moved

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<v Speaker 2>into our neighborhood, I was nine, and for three years

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't know it was genuine on our part. We

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<v Speaker 2>grew to love this family. They were like our best friends.

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<v Speaker 2>His oldest son was my age, and then he had

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<v Speaker 2>two other sons that matched my sisters in age, and

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<v Speaker 2>we became close close friends. We went on our bikes,

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<v Speaker 2>we went up to the park, we went swimming together.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a boat, he had a snowmobile, he had

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<v Speaker 2>the trampoline, things we didn't have.

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<v Speaker 3>And so we were always at their house. His wife was.

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<v Speaker 2>Always, you know, in the kitchen making cookies. We were

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<v Speaker 2>just having that Camelot childhood that I think a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people don't get.

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<v Speaker 3>I did.

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<v Speaker 2>I had parents who loved me, who we talked around

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<v Speaker 2>the dinner table every night. Because we didn't have cell phones,

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<v Speaker 2>we actually communicated and they listened. We were never spanked

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<v Speaker 2>or yelled at. We were only told that we were

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful and amazing and.

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<v Speaker 3>That we could do anything.

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<v Speaker 2>And so he looked just like how my dad was.

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<v Speaker 2>He was fun, he was nice to everybody. Everybody in

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<v Speaker 2>our neighborhood, in our congregation just loved him. He was

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<v Speaker 2>a leader in the church. He was the new furniture

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<v Speaker 2>store owner in town. There wasn't anything that looked scary

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<v Speaker 2>at all about this man, and certainly not his wife

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<v Speaker 2>and his five children. We truly became the best of friends.

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<v Speaker 2>So over three years, we did hundreds of activities with

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<v Speaker 2>this family, took vacations together, all the things that brought

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<v Speaker 2>us closer. And then one day he picked me up

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<v Speaker 2>to take me horseback riding. It was one of those

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<v Speaker 2>things that we had done before. And he handed me

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<v Speaker 2>my allergy pill, which was drugged, and I fell into

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<v Speaker 2>a deep sleep. And the next thing I knew, I

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<v Speaker 2>was strapped to a bed by my wrists and my

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<v Speaker 2>ankles in the back of a motor home that was moving.

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<v Speaker 3>And I woke up.

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<v Speaker 2>It was dark to a high pitched, monotone sounding voice.

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<v Speaker 2>Now this is the seventies, it's the space Age. All

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<v Speaker 2>of our shows on TV are I dream of Genie.

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<v Speaker 2>You know they're lost in space. You know they're the

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<v Speaker 2>Twilight Zone. He would take all of the kids to

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<v Speaker 2>the science fiction movies. He would tell these stories. We

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<v Speaker 2>all were just kind of like, oh wow, And then

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<v Speaker 2>there'd be a UFO siding in the newspaper in black

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<v Speaker 2>and white. This is a really important part of the

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<v Speaker 2>story because all of those little seeds of grooming that

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<v Speaker 2>were being planted weren't directed at me. They were just

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<v Speaker 2>stories did he'd tell my mom and dad or around

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<v Speaker 2>the kitchen table. But all of that to that nine,

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<v Speaker 2>ten eleven year old is processed in there like this

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<v Speaker 2>could be real. And then he related that to some

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<v Speaker 2>of our religious beliefs at the time, like Armageddon and

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<v Speaker 2>the Second Coming and people are going to come from

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<v Speaker 2>other planets. That when I woke up to that high pitched,

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<v Speaker 2>monotone voice as a twelve.

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<v Speaker 3>Year old, I was terrified.

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<v Speaker 2>I believed one hundred percent that I had been taken

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<v Speaker 2>by a UFO. And then over those couple of days,

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<v Speaker 2>as that voice kept coming on and as I was

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<v Speaker 2>in and out of a drug induced sleep, eventually it

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<v Speaker 2>was like, Okay, now you're unstrapped, you can go get

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<v Speaker 2>something to eat. We've been watching you since you were born.

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<v Speaker 2>And all my favorite foods were in the little refrigerator,

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<v Speaker 2>the cooler, you know, all these little details that he

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<v Speaker 2>had thought of and had obsessed over, I guess for

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<v Speaker 2>those three years.

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<v Speaker 1>So that right there is a really important part of

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<v Speaker 1>your story for people to understand that you were in

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<v Speaker 1>an RV, you were drugged, so you didn't even understand

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<v Speaker 1>how that transfer took place. You had spent years hearing

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<v Speaker 1>all this amped up kind of UFO stuff. But in

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<v Speaker 1>those first three four days in that RV, in that

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<v Speaker 1>motor home that is stocked with the foods and the

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<v Speaker 1>snacks and the things you like, you did not see

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<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator. Yeah, Birt Shoulder, you didn't see him. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>that part of that is so important because you were

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of nowhere. You're hearing this kind of

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<v Speaker 1>voice out of a tiny speaker saying, we're the aliens,

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<v Speaker 1>We're here, and that's the only voice you heard for

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<v Speaker 1>three or four days. It was almost like taking the

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<v Speaker 1>grooming to this horrific level, because now you're almost being

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<v Speaker 1>groomed by this disembodied voice, right that carried on what

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<v Speaker 1>he was saying.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they've been calling me female companion. You are a

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<v Speaker 2>very special person. You have a special mission to perform.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't understand what any of this meant, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know that this was going to be the basis for

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<v Speaker 2>all of the rape and the abuse that happened. And

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<v Speaker 2>then after those several days, they said, okay, now it

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<v Speaker 2>is time for you to meet the male companion. And

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<v Speaker 2>so when that partition between the backbed and the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of the motor home was taken down, I was then

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the front of the motor home where

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<v Speaker 2>I would meet the male companion. I mean, I was terrified.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know who that was going to be. If

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<v Speaker 2>it was an alien, who was it that I was

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to have a baby to save a dying planet.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very scared to meet the male companion when I

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<v Speaker 2>walk to the front of the motor home and there's

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<v Speaker 2>be that person that loves me. He's like my favorite

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<v Speaker 2>uncle that I know so well. I'm so relieved you've.

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<v Speaker 1>Put a clarification on the story here that they don't

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<v Speaker 1>think we've seen and heard anywhere else. We really haven't.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you thought you'd been abducted. The surroundings, the voice,

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<v Speaker 1>your age, and everything you'd been told to that point

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense, and that they've been watching me since I

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<v Speaker 1>was born, and they read your thoughts because they knew

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<v Speaker 1>what to feed you and give you to drink. This

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<v Speaker 1>partition is removed to meet this so called male companion.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you see someone who you still think is

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<v Speaker 1>safe in your mind, is not the sense that you

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<v Speaker 1>have been kidnapped or taken against your will. This is

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<v Speaker 1>a multiplier on grooming because now he is a safe person.

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<v Speaker 1>He can completely control you at this point.

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<v Speaker 2>Right And when I see him, he's covered in blood,

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<v Speaker 2>he's literally cut himself and he's passed out. I think

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<v Speaker 2>he's dead, So I immediately I'm shaking him.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm crying.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, be Bee, wake up, are you okay? And

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<v Speaker 2>he wakes up and the actor or that he was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, oh my word, what happened?

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<v Speaker 3>I saw this white light, the car went out of control.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you okay?

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<v Speaker 2>Dolly That's what he used to call me, that was

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<v Speaker 2>my nickname. And I'm like, yes, I'm scared, okay. And

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<v Speaker 2>then then he becomes that person that we're in this together.

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<v Speaker 2>And ugh, when I watch that scene in the series

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<v Speaker 2>with Little Hendrix as Little Me in that motor home

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<v Speaker 2>and he's telling her what he's heard and what he's seen,

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<v Speaker 2>I was so angry. How does an adult construct this

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<v Speaker 2>and terrify that little innocent twelve year old who really

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<v Speaker 2>was just so scared and then lived that for the

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<v Speaker 2>next four years of my life.

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<v Speaker 1>And I am so sorry because twelve is so young.

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<v Speaker 1>It is and the whole situation is scary. We can

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<v Speaker 1>sit here and think it's far fetched, but not to

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<v Speaker 1>a twelve year old's mine. It's really not. And again,

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<v Speaker 1>the twelve year old of the seventies, not of the

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty three, where I think kids might have

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<v Speaker 1>a slightly different savvy now because of the tools they

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<v Speaker 1>have versus no way in the seventies. Now, it's sort

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<v Speaker 1>of like this really exploitative gas slighting. Now you've also

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<v Speaker 1>been told the male companion is going to be on

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<v Speaker 1>the other side of this wall.

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<v Speaker 3>So I don't even know what that really means.

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<v Speaker 1>You wouldn't know what that means exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>I was so relieved to c B and I was

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<v Speaker 2>told he was the male companion. He just knew all

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<v Speaker 2>of the next steps to open up a cupboard one day.

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<v Speaker 2>This isn't in the series. I haven't said this to

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<v Speaker 2>anybody either. Opened up a cupboard one day and here's

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<v Speaker 2>five or six books on sex. You know, one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and one sexual positions or something like that. And I've

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<v Speaker 2>never seen anything like this. I was so innocent. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I knew what sex was, but I'd never seen a

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<v Speaker 2>book like this.

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<v Speaker 3>And he's like, oh, I think maybe.

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<v Speaker 2>We're supposed to look at these because you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>baby to save the dying planet. I think this is

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<v Speaker 2>a part of it. I'll do it with you, Dolly,

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<v Speaker 2>so it won't be scary and opening these books and looking.

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<v Speaker 3>At these pages.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course it was scary, but he was there.

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<v Speaker 3>At least it was with him.

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<v Speaker 2>See, that is just so eugh, it's just so disgusting

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<v Speaker 2>and nefarious. And that's what it was. That's how he

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<v Speaker 2>unfolded the rest of the story of what.

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<v Speaker 3>Was going to now happen.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, he bonded you to him. You were only a child.

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<v Speaker 1>There is no consent for a child, right. Every behavior

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<v Speaker 1>you were engaging in jan was about safety. How do

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<v Speaker 1>I keep myself safe? How do I keep the world safe?

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<v Speaker 1>How do I keep my family safe? That was what

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<v Speaker 1>motivated you was safety. That's all that motivates a child,

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<v Speaker 1>safety and attachment. And in a way you were trying

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<v Speaker 1>to also have attachment to be because he was the

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<v Speaker 1>only safe adult in that moment, and with someone you

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<v Speaker 1>had grown to care deeply about. So those primal needs

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<v Speaker 1>of a child were really mobilizing against the backdrop of

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<v Speaker 1>this terror of these disembodied alien voices. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>you know to give context to it, because I get

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<v Speaker 1>really frustrated when I hear people saying, oh, come on, aliens,

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<v Speaker 1>and that disbelieving is what keeps all survivors in the shadow.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thank you for saying that, because I feel sometimes

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 2>like I'm always trying to explain myself and it's really

0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.960
<v Speaker 2>hard for me to keep doing that, and it's hard

0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.600
<v Speaker 2>for a victim. And I feel like I'm definitely a

0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.240
<v Speaker 2>survivor and a thriving human being, But for a victim,

0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:58.240
<v Speaker 2>when they're a child, you never get over the need

0:12:58.840 --> 0:12:59.880
<v Speaker 2>for the base.

0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:02.480
<v Speaker 3>Somebody else has to do that for you.

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:06.800
<v Speaker 2>It's why children their abuser is their parent, or their nurture,

0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.880
<v Speaker 2>their you know, grandparent, it's someone close to them, and

0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.800
<v Speaker 2>they don't tell because who would feed me?

0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Correct?

0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Will I be okay and have a home? Will they

0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:18.720
<v Speaker 2>take me away from my family?

0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Exactly right?

0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:21.880
<v Speaker 2>And I just wish people would realize that.

0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 1>One thing that struck me about your story is that

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.840
<v Speaker 1>you always had a close, loving bond with your family.

0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.280
<v Speaker 1>So one thing I'm sure though, is people are listening

0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.319
<v Speaker 1>to this. They're wondering, you've gone horseback riding. Obviously now

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.800
<v Speaker 1>it's been days, is anybody looking for you? What is

0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.680
<v Speaker 1>happening on the side of your parents?

0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.000
<v Speaker 2>So when I didn't come home that night, the first

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.840
<v Speaker 2>person they called was his wife, Gail, like, have you

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.400
<v Speaker 2>heard you know from b has he made contact? Of

0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 2>course we don't have cell phones either, and she's like, no,

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.640
<v Speaker 2>but I'm sure you know, you know how he can

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 2>be with his mood swings and you know, up and down,

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 2>and he probably just got lost in time and they'll

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.800
<v Speaker 2>be home. And eventually they're like, we think we better

0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 2>call the police. And she came immediately down to our house.

0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.880
<v Speaker 3>Please don't call the police. You know that he'll be back.

0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:12.880
<v Speaker 2>He would never hurt her. And of course my parents

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>were like, well, right, we know that, but what if

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:17.839
<v Speaker 2>they were in a car accident or what can we do?

0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.120
<v Speaker 2>So eventually they did call the highway patrol of the

0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 2>police department and they said, has there been a car accident?

0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.080
<v Speaker 2>We don't know what to do because you don't know

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.400
<v Speaker 2>what you don't know, And so they put out an

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.280
<v Speaker 2>APB to look for.

0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.760
<v Speaker 3>Nothing was found. He had hidden the car.

0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 2>So now it's the next day and it's a Saturday,

0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, okay, well, let's call the relatives. So

0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Gail starts calling relatives like, you know, have you seen Bee?

0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, have you seen Bob, Robert Birchild. And they're

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.680
<v Speaker 2>all like, no, he hasn't been up here. And she's

0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.960
<v Speaker 2>still begging my parents, don't call the police.

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 3>We don't want to cause a fuss.

0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, he'll be back, you know how he gets

0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.960
<v Speaker 2>that he has these depressive episodes. And of course they

0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.080
<v Speaker 2>don't even have the right words for all the things

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 2>that we talk about today. There's no such thing almost

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 2>as mental illness or whatever you would call his depressive experiences.

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.280
<v Speaker 2>And so now it's been a day and a half

0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.040
<v Speaker 2>and my mother does call the FBI.

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 3>She calls the.

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Number that's in the phone book, and it's not in

0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.440
<v Speaker 2>our hometown. It's in a like it's a regional office,

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 2>and an answering service type of thing picks up and says,

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 2>we're closed. We'll be back on Monday. If this is

0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.680
<v Speaker 2>an emergency, call your local police department, which they had

0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.160
<v Speaker 2>already done. But it wasn't that they didn't call the police.

0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.280
<v Speaker 2>It's just they don't know what they're looking for. They're

0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 2>certainly not looking at their best friend having kidnapped their daughter, right,

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:52.080
<v Speaker 2>not even a remote possibility in their head, right.

0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.000
<v Speaker 1>I think is very important to note and that your

0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.000
<v Speaker 1>parents had been groomed. And it's not beyond the pail

0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:07.600
<v Speaker 1>for a perpetrator to groom entire systems, school systems, families, camps, churches,

0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.520
<v Speaker 1>pick something and a groomer will work that system, and

0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.960
<v Speaker 1>in this case, in a very cold, calculated, callous way,

0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 1>groomed your entire family. And his wife, whatever her motivation was,

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.920
<v Speaker 1>did not want this to be known for what she

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 1>very likely knew it.

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Was right and her own self preservation.

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 3>For herself and her children.

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:40.280
<v Speaker 2>That's why, and even today in twenty twenty three, we

0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:45.520
<v Speaker 2>don't see nearly enough women who come forward to say,

0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I know something's going on with my husband and my children,

0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:54.920
<v Speaker 2>or with my father, or I believe this school teacher

0:16:55.960 --> 0:17:00.720
<v Speaker 2>for this coach or the USA Gymnastics doctor. They don't

0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:06.440
<v Speaker 2>do it because there's something to preserve for themselves and

0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.080
<v Speaker 2>the people that they care about, well, my daughter wants

0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 2>to be an Olympic champion.

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.000
<v Speaker 3>This is how you get it.

0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.400
<v Speaker 2>So even if I have a funny gut feeling, I'm

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:16.479
<v Speaker 2>going to ignore it.

0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.040
<v Speaker 1>I have to say, as somebody who is very focused

0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.120
<v Speaker 1>and identified with the trauma of a child in this situation,

0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.800
<v Speaker 1>I felt a lot of strong negative emotions against him

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.359
<v Speaker 1>because she felt like a huge impediment to this getting

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.919
<v Speaker 1>found out. But it's now four or five days in

0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.960
<v Speaker 1>the FBI is involved. You're in this motor home with

0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 1>somebody who is now sexually assaulting you. How long did

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:41.080
<v Speaker 1>that last?

0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.120
<v Speaker 2>We were found by the FBI and the federales in Mazolan,

0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Mexico about forty five days later.

0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:53.240
<v Speaker 1>Forty five days, six and a half weeks. That is

0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:54.520
<v Speaker 1>a really long time.

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.399
<v Speaker 2>And it's a long time to be hearing the voices

0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.639
<v Speaker 2>yes constantly, And I think there's a lot of guilt

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.439
<v Speaker 2>in this, what I'm going to say. But then to

0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.560
<v Speaker 2>be gently being abused and having to go further and further,

0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.200
<v Speaker 2>and not that it ever felt good, because it really

0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.679
<v Speaker 2>never did. But there is something different when the abuser

0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 2>is someone that you love and that they are on

0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.560
<v Speaker 2>some level. Well, I'm not trying to hurt you, but

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.280
<v Speaker 2>we have to do this because we have to deliver

0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.600
<v Speaker 2>on the promise or we'll be vaporized. You know, if

0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.679
<v Speaker 2>we don't have the baby to save the dying planet

0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.639
<v Speaker 2>before your sixteenth birthday, we're going to be vaporized. Or

0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.639
<v Speaker 2>your little sister will have to do what you're doing. Now.

0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:41.240
<v Speaker 3>That was the threat.

0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:46.480
<v Speaker 2>That was what kept me, which keeps most children in line. Yes, yes,

0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.240
<v Speaker 2>many survivors that I have interviewed, it was always the

0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:50.720
<v Speaker 2>threat of, well, if you don't do it, I'll do

0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:51.200
<v Speaker 2>it to your.

0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:52.440
<v Speaker 3>Little sister or your little brother.

0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.240
<v Speaker 1>One of the biggest mistakes I think we've made historically

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 1>in the field of psychology and even in the field

0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.439
<v Speaker 1>of medicine is we view children as small adults, and

0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 1>they're not. They're entirely different entities, with very different nervous

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.280
<v Speaker 1>systems and very different ways of interpreting the world, very

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.160
<v Speaker 1>different needs around attachment and safety. So none of those

0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:20.160
<v Speaker 1>rules that apply to adults apply here. So forty five

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:25.800
<v Speaker 1>days in you're found this is six weeks without communication.

0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.840
<v Speaker 1>Did you have no communication with your family during that time?

0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.120
<v Speaker 2>No, there was one time where a phone call happened

0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.719
<v Speaker 2>and I was allowed to talk to my family, but

0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:40.000
<v Speaker 2>of course everything was fine, and I couldn't say anything

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:44.040
<v Speaker 2>about never about the aliens, and nothing about that abuse,

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.359
<v Speaker 2>which I wouldn't have even called it that at the time,

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.840
<v Speaker 2>Nothing about those things. But I was so homesick. And

0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:54.600
<v Speaker 2>it was when I got to call home and basically

0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.439
<v Speaker 2>beg my parents, like, we can't come back to the

0:19:58.520 --> 0:19:59.200
<v Speaker 2>United States.

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.119
<v Speaker 3>Be says we can. Hadn't come back.

0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Because now all the police are going to arrest him,

0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.240
<v Speaker 2>but he hasn't done anything. He just was sad and

0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.200
<v Speaker 2>we just kept driving. And he keeps that story going

0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.000
<v Speaker 2>for like the next year and a half, like, why

0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.120
<v Speaker 2>did you get the FBI involved? Why in the world

0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.080
<v Speaker 2>would you do that? You know I would never hurt her.

0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I just couldn't come back because they think, you know

0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.960
<v Speaker 2>that I kidnapped her. I haven't kidnapped her.

0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.399
<v Speaker 1>Birch told claimed he was having a depressive episode and

0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.840
<v Speaker 1>just kept driving with Jan. That's how they ended up

0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:34.359
<v Speaker 1>in Mexico. At the time, there was not much understanding

0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:38.920
<v Speaker 1>around mental health, and Jan's family empathized with his plight.

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.680
<v Speaker 1>As a mental health professional, I must stop to clearly

0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:49.320
<v Speaker 1>say depression would never explain or excuse an abduction. So

0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 1>what was that like to see your parents after that period?

0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:54.919
<v Speaker 3>It was wonderful.

0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:59.240
<v Speaker 2>But before they got there, Birch told gave the guard

0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:03.480
<v Speaker 2>his gold ring, his wedding ring, and had that guard

0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.639
<v Speaker 2>bring me to his cell. I've been stuck in this

0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.600
<v Speaker 2>little six by six foot little room, you know, with

0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.159
<v Speaker 2>really nothing to eat. It was a scary situation for

0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.919
<v Speaker 2>me as well, being separated from him. He had me

0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:18.520
<v Speaker 2>come to his cell and he said, Zaida and Zethra,

0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.520
<v Speaker 2>the name of the aliens. They've come to me and

0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.199
<v Speaker 2>told me that if we talk about these things, we

0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>will be instantly vaporized, and that we will have to

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.440
<v Speaker 2>continue the mission at some point.

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.120
<v Speaker 1>This story is so much pain, so much harm came

0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.600
<v Speaker 1>to the manipulativeness, the gold ring, bribing the prison guard,

0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.040
<v Speaker 1>bringing you in there to further again groom you and

0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.240
<v Speaker 1>silence you. But here's the thing, Jen is, he wasn't

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.399
<v Speaker 1>talking alien talk to the other people. He wasn't talking

0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.000
<v Speaker 1>aliens to the cops. He wasn't going to be talking

0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:52.560
<v Speaker 1>aliens to your family. That capacity to keep these two

0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:58.400
<v Speaker 1>narratives so separate, right, The narrative about the aliens with

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:02.400
<v Speaker 1>you and the narrative I'm so sad, I'm depressed with

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 1>everyone else. That feels a lot like psychopathy to me.

0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.199
<v Speaker 1>There's a skill to that, because most people are not

0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.520
<v Speaker 1>great liars. The more emotion involved in, more anxiety involved,

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.199
<v Speaker 1>more we're going to crack under the lies. We're not

0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.960
<v Speaker 1>going to get our story straight. But his ability to

0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.199
<v Speaker 1>just shape shift like that between the alien story with

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.440
<v Speaker 1>you and the sad I was sad story and being

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.720
<v Speaker 1>misunderstood with everybody else, and without missing a kind of a.

0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:27.960
<v Speaker 3>Beat, It's so true.

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:29.200
<v Speaker 1>That's the psychopathy.

0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.320
<v Speaker 2>An amazing way to explain him. That was exactly what

0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.439
<v Speaker 2>it was like. And I knew what the real story was.

0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.880
<v Speaker 2>That we had a very important mission to accomplish, right,

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 2>I had no doubt about it. I never thought otherwise.

0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And I would do whatever I was told to do

0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:53.200
<v Speaker 2>to protect my family. Karen, my middle the next sister

0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.520
<v Speaker 2>younger than me. If I did X y Z, she

0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:57.439
<v Speaker 2>would go blind.

0:22:57.960 --> 0:22:58.239
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.879
<v Speaker 2>He had some kind of threat that came through the

0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.520
<v Speaker 2>aliens for every member of my family.

0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:06.640
<v Speaker 1>And hears something about the story. I never even connected

0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.320
<v Speaker 1>this to dots until now. In the case of many

0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:13.520
<v Speaker 1>perpetrators like him, they issued the threat, if you talk

0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.119
<v Speaker 1>to anyone, I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.200
<v Speaker 1>hurt them. So now the child knows the perpetrator is

0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.160
<v Speaker 1>a dangerous person. Right, depth of the manipulation you were

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.880
<v Speaker 1>exposed to, which was he couldn't be the bad guy,

0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>so we constructed these aliens and this box and this

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 1>speaker so he could remain a wonderful person, and that

0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:36.439
<v Speaker 1>it was going to be these aliens that would harm

0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:40.040
<v Speaker 1>your family. We e went further than that. He had

0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.840
<v Speaker 1>to be kept safe or they would issue you a

0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.439
<v Speaker 1>new male companion. Right, So this was the way you

0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.680
<v Speaker 1>were uncomfortable. You were not consenting, You were being abused.

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.800
<v Speaker 1>You wouldn't have used those words, but the unknown alternative

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.040
<v Speaker 1>to that farwards would have been terrifying. So it was

0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:00.760
<v Speaker 1>these stacked up manipulations, and you didn't even want him

0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.320
<v Speaker 1>to go to jail. You were worried about him.

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, right, and then how do we finish the mission

0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:08.040
<v Speaker 2>if he's in jail?

0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:10.040
<v Speaker 3>How long is this going to go.

0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:14.520
<v Speaker 2>On until this can be accomplished? Yeah, I couldn't do

0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.679
<v Speaker 2>that without him, and I certainly didn't want somebody I

0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:19.560
<v Speaker 2>didn't know that would have been horrible.

0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.080
<v Speaker 1>So you come back from Mexico, your parents come down

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:25.160
<v Speaker 1>to Mazulan, they pick you up, they bring you home.

0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.800
<v Speaker 1>How does your family feel about birch Child after all

0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:29.080
<v Speaker 1>of that.

0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, what's so interesting is the amount of time that

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.280
<v Speaker 2>it takes for anything to happen legally. So he is

0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:39.720
<v Speaker 2>back and now he's at home with his family and

0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:44.720
<v Speaker 2>back in church with us. We're showing up and there

0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:45.080
<v Speaker 2>he is.

0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Because as the FBI is trying to put a case together,

0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:53.280
<v Speaker 2>and as my parents are like being threatened by birch

0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Hold's lawyer, like going to say that you're unfit parents

0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:58.520
<v Speaker 2>and take your children away from you, and then we're

0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:00.520
<v Speaker 2>going to express that you know, the bos my dad

0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.600
<v Speaker 2>is a homosexual, which he was not. But you know,

0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 2>that's the threats that they made at that time in

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the seventies that were so horrific for my parents. And

0:25:12.000 --> 0:25:13.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people don't get that. They're like, your

0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 2>stupid parents and they just were protecting themselves. I'm like, no,

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:19.120
<v Speaker 2>they were trying to make sure that their children weren't

0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:21.800
<v Speaker 2>taken away from them. So that's one of the things

0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:23.679
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of people miss. They don't know that

0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:28.439
<v Speaker 2>he called my house when we were at school, trying

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:30.280
<v Speaker 2>to talk to my mom every.

0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:31.840
<v Speaker 3>Day, multiple times a day.

0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:35.520
<v Speaker 2>You don't have a caller ID, you don't know who's

0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:36.919
<v Speaker 2>on the other end of the line, and it was

0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 2>always Mary Anne. Don't hang up, Mary Anne, please. I

0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:41.000
<v Speaker 2>just got to tell you exactly what happened. You know

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:42.680
<v Speaker 2>that I'm in love with you. I've been in love

0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 2>with you since the day I met you.

0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:46.160
<v Speaker 3>And he had flirted with my mom and.

0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Given her all the compliments, and you know, a lot

0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>of ladies found him to be quite charming and handsome.

0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:56.639
<v Speaker 2>And you know, my mother loved my father very very much.

0:25:57.000 --> 0:26:01.400
<v Speaker 2>But anybody can be swayed by the right set of circumstances.

0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:06.600
<v Speaker 1>Bob birch Toold went to extreme lengths to groom and

0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 1>gain collateral from Jan's family before he abducted her. The

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:15.160
<v Speaker 1>first time, he manipulated her father into performing a sex

0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 1>act on him. In between the first and second kidnappings,

0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:22.840
<v Speaker 1>he preyed upon Jan's mother, seducing her into a three

0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 1>month sexual affair. He then used these transgressions as proof

0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:33.880
<v Speaker 1>that they were unfit parents. This textbook grooming and manipulation

0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:38.840
<v Speaker 1>further isolated the person who was hurt worst of all

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:43.439
<v Speaker 1>in this jam, and is consistent with the pattern of

0:26:43.520 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 1>psychopathic behavior exhibited by birch Told. I think that every

0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:51.040
<v Speaker 1>one of us is manipulatable, and every one of us

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:52.160
<v Speaker 1>has been manipulated.

0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:54.640
<v Speaker 2>And I love that you've let me tell that part

0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:57.439
<v Speaker 2>of it, because my father never let him back in

0:26:57.480 --> 0:26:57.879
<v Speaker 2>the house.

0:26:58.119 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 3>He hadn't really told my mom.

0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:02.440
<v Speaker 2>He said, was I'm taking care of it, and I'm

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:05.440
<v Speaker 2>gonna repent, and I love you, and I'm just so

0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:09.080
<v Speaker 2>mad at myself for ever, you know, having a weak

0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:11.760
<v Speaker 2>moment in my life. It's very interesting because I think

0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:14.680
<v Speaker 2>those two pieces of my story were part of the

0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:17.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is so shocking and how could they

0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:20.760
<v Speaker 2>have done? And I'm like, really, most people in the

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>world without a master manipulator calling the shots and stringing

0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:29.160
<v Speaker 2>you along, have made a sexual experience mistake.

0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:31.840
<v Speaker 3>Yes, almost everybody, but I know.

0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:36.159
<v Speaker 1>However, what birch Told was doing was getting collateral on

0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:39.040
<v Speaker 1>your parents, right. That was a very calculated maneuver on

0:27:39.320 --> 0:27:41.720
<v Speaker 1>his part. Going back to what the show is about,

0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:44.679
<v Speaker 1>I think when we hear about people interacting with people

0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:47.639
<v Speaker 1>like birch Told, people who are psychopathic and they're coming

0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:50.320
<v Speaker 1>into contact with someone like your father your mother who

0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:56.000
<v Speaker 1>have absolutely no roadmap for this. People view this as

0:27:56.040 --> 0:28:01.640
<v Speaker 1>at encounter of equals, and it's really not. It's sitting

0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:04.800
<v Speaker 1>down to play a twisted game of chess with a

0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:08.960
<v Speaker 1>twisted grandmaster. They're going they already won the game. Birch

0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:12.240
<v Speaker 1>told went into this with an agenda. Your father went

0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:15.199
<v Speaker 1>into it thinking it was a burgeoning friendship. And I

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.320
<v Speaker 1>think that's where we often blame your father in this

0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:21.200
<v Speaker 1>and your mother in these kinds of scenarios, because they're

0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:23.920
<v Speaker 1>viewed to think, how could you not see this? Because

0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:26.119
<v Speaker 1>the idea of grooming is if we could see it,

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:30.280
<v Speaker 1>then it wouldn't happen exactly. We will be right back

0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:41.560
<v Speaker 1>with this conversation. Okay, So now you're back and you know,

0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:44.680
<v Speaker 1>getting into a rhythm again. He is not in prison,

0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:47.680
<v Speaker 1>he's living his life in the community. How does he

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:51.600
<v Speaker 1>insinuate himself back into your lives again?

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:56.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, really, he was never in my home again. Eventually,

0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:00.800
<v Speaker 2>what happened was that my mother, soon after I was found,

0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 2>when she went down and agreed to meet with him

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:06.120
<v Speaker 2>where he was going to tell her exactly what happened.

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.520
<v Speaker 2>And it was in that first communication in his motor

0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:13.560
<v Speaker 2>home that you know, she stayed too long. He told her,

0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:15.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, every time I would look at jan standing

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:18.000
<v Speaker 2>at that little sink, I was thinking of you, and

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:20.960
<v Speaker 2>why don't we just figure out how we can be together,

0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:23.239
<v Speaker 2>and I'll break the news to Gail that I'm in

0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:25.760
<v Speaker 2>love with you and that I you know, all these

0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:28.000
<v Speaker 2>things that he was saying to my mother, whether was

0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:29.640
<v Speaker 2>on the phone when he called, you know, two or

0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:33.160
<v Speaker 2>three times a day to get her to listen. That

0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:35.760
<v Speaker 2>was the first time that she met with him in private,

0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:38.320
<v Speaker 2>and that's when that first happened. And then she told

0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:43.160
<v Speaker 2>my dad and he basically got divorce papers and put

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:45.440
<v Speaker 2>them on the table. He said, I think he's an

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.760
<v Speaker 2>evil person. I don't think you're seeing it, and you're

0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:48.920
<v Speaker 2>putting our girls in danger.

0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:50.120
<v Speaker 1>And my dad.

0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Said it was the worst day of his life when

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:55.120
<v Speaker 2>he put those divorce papers on the table, because he

0:29:55.200 --> 0:29:58.560
<v Speaker 2>loved my mother so much. And my mother has basically said,

0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:00.680
<v Speaker 2>that was the worst day of my life too, except

0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>for the day you were kidnapped the second time. That's

0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the time when I felt like it was all my fault,

0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:09.480
<v Speaker 2>that if I had seen through him sooner. So she

0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:11.680
<v Speaker 2>went down and spent some time with her own mother

0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:16.959
<v Speaker 2>and sisters, and came back within ten days and just

0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:19.800
<v Speaker 2>fell into my dad's arms and they sobbed, both of them.

0:30:20.160 --> 0:30:24.880
<v Speaker 2>She said, it's over, it's done. I see through it.

0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I do think he's been manipulating me, and I do

0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 2>want this family, and I want you and I love you.

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:32.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, even though it was only that little two

0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:35.640
<v Speaker 2>week period of time, it was very life changing for

0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 2>all of us.

0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:38.240
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting because what it does seem is that what

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Birch told was trying to do was make your family

0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 1>system a weaker place that would have given him even

0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:49.480
<v Speaker 1>more entry in right to her access. The calculated scheme

0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:52.000
<v Speaker 1>around this is one of the biggest webs I think

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:54.760
<v Speaker 1>I've ever heard. Although it's involving so few people. This

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.479
<v Speaker 1>is the kind of stuff you'd read in an espionage novel, right,

0:30:57.520 --> 0:31:00.160
<v Speaker 1>and it involves entire countries she's doing it with in

0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:03.680
<v Speaker 1>one family system. And so your parents have come back together,

0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 1>but you still believe there's this possibility the world is

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.360
<v Speaker 1>going to vaporize on my family's going to get destroyed.

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:13.200
<v Speaker 1>How are things unfolding? Because we're still building out to

0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:17.960
<v Speaker 1>you being kidnapped a second time. Nearly two years after

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:22.080
<v Speaker 1>she was drugged and driven to Mexico, Birch told coerce Jan,

0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:26.680
<v Speaker 1>based on instructions he said he'd received from aliens, to

0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 1>write a note to her parents and climb out her

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.720
<v Speaker 1>bedroom window where he'd be waiting for her. Jan was

0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 1>fourteen years old and missing once again. This time, he

0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:39.920
<v Speaker 1>took her to California.

0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:45.680
<v Speaker 2>He enrolls me in a Catholic boarding school in Pasadena, California,

0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Flintrich Sacred Heart Academy.

0:31:47.120 --> 0:31:49.200
<v Speaker 1>So the first time it was forty five days. The

0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:51.320
<v Speaker 1>second time, how long were you gone?

0:31:51.560 --> 0:31:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I was missing for over three months?

0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:57.880
<v Speaker 1>How did law enforcement? How did the police? How are

0:31:57.880 --> 0:31:59.600
<v Speaker 1>they conceptualizing this case?

0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 2>This time they treated it as a runaway because of

0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:06.719
<v Speaker 2>the note that I had left that you know, I

0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.640
<v Speaker 2>was going to go and be, you know, on my own.

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:10.800
<v Speaker 3>I was grown up.

0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:16.200
<v Speaker 2>I was fourteen and pre pubescent, and the note was

0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:21.160
<v Speaker 2>how they decided. I guess they all knew it was him,

0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:26.600
<v Speaker 2>but the FBI would not sanction getting involved with it

0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:30.720
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning until there was more proof.

0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:32.600
<v Speaker 1>I just want to make a comment though. Here you

0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 1>are someone who's been abducted before, they know this, and

0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:39.200
<v Speaker 1>they go right to that idea of a runaway. I

0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:41.040
<v Speaker 1>still don't think we get it right. I think in

0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.920
<v Speaker 1>too many missing young people's cases that's where people go.

0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.000
<v Speaker 1>In some cases that may be true, but as far

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:52.320
<v Speaker 1>as I'm concerned, who cares? A fact that someone ran

0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:54.720
<v Speaker 1>away means that they were distressed?

0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.200
<v Speaker 2>And side note that I think is very interesting. When

0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:04.480
<v Speaker 2>he spent from the kidnapping with time served and the conviction,

0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:10.280
<v Speaker 2>his fifteen days in jail. Fifteen days, it was after

0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:16.040
<v Speaker 2>he'd already taken me to California. It was after Jan's

0:33:16.080 --> 0:33:19.360
<v Speaker 2>a runaway. Now he goes and shows up to serve

0:33:19.440 --> 0:33:21.280
<v Speaker 2>his fifteen days jails.

0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:24.080
<v Speaker 1>Were from the original abduction. So you were abducted for

0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:27.959
<v Speaker 1>forty five. Huh, he only has to do fifteen and

0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 1>he hasn't served it yet and has managed to kidnap

0:33:31.160 --> 0:33:32.360
<v Speaker 1>you again, right, And.

0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Then he goes to serve it and says, well, I

0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:36.720
<v Speaker 2>don't have her. I mean she's in communication with me.

0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:39.720
<v Speaker 2>She just she can't possibly go back to her terrible

0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>parents in her terrible home.

0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:44.600
<v Speaker 1>And yet he managed to enroll you in a private school.

0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:49.800
<v Speaker 2>By telling those wonderful nuns who ran the boarding school

0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:53.040
<v Speaker 2>that he was a CIA agent, that we had escaped

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:55.000
<v Speaker 2>from Lebanon, that my mother had been killed in the

0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Lebanon crisis, and he basically showed them, I mean proof,

0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:00.920
<v Speaker 2>and he said, oh, I'm sorry, I've got to go.

0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:05.240
<v Speaker 2>I have a meeting with Jerry Jerry Ford President, and

0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:07.480
<v Speaker 2>he's like, and really, the most important thing is that

0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.480
<v Speaker 2>you've got to protect her. And if anyone comes looking

0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:13.279
<v Speaker 2>for her, I mean, they may pose as police officers

0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:17.239
<v Speaker 2>or FBI or whatever, but if you tell them that

0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:20.880
<v Speaker 2>she's here, they will get her and they will torture

0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:23.840
<v Speaker 2>her to get to me so that they can find me.

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:27.040
<v Speaker 1>This is sort of like a navigating narcissism hack for

0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:30.520
<v Speaker 1>everyone listening. If anyone ever tells you they are CIA

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.080
<v Speaker 1>or in the Witness Protection program, don't spend time with them.

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:36.680
<v Speaker 1>They are lying to you. You're not supposed to tell

0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:39.000
<v Speaker 1>if you're in the Witness Protection program, right, And you're

0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:40.840
<v Speaker 1>not supposed to tell if you're in the CIA. It

0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:45.439
<v Speaker 1>is amazing how often psychopathic people weaponize the whole CIA thing.

0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:48.560
<v Speaker 1>I guess it seems intriguing and it seems like someone's

0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:51.120
<v Speaker 1>got to be a CIA agent. They're not talking about it.

0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:54.080
<v Speaker 1>And they're definitely not enrolling kids in the private school

0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:54.399
<v Speaker 1>like that.

0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:57.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's something sexy about that on some level

0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.360
<v Speaker 2>or something that people are just like, Oh.

0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:02.120
<v Speaker 1>I think it also makes the other person feel special, right,

0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:04.520
<v Speaker 1>like I'm part of this sort of thing being brought

0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:06.279
<v Speaker 1>into it. So how would he see you?

0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:09.319
<v Speaker 2>He would come on the weekends and he would pick

0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:11.239
<v Speaker 2>me up and we'd go in the motor home and

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:13.839
<v Speaker 2>he'd take me for two or three days and then

0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:14.800
<v Speaker 2>I'd go back to school.

0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:18.080
<v Speaker 3>Okay, and that's when all the abuse happened.

0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:19.799
<v Speaker 1>So he would s actually assault you. Tell you note

0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:24.279
<v Speaker 1>that weekend. So now though they do finally find you

0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:29.480
<v Speaker 1>at this private school, so you then go home again.

0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:30.240
<v Speaker 3>Go home again.

0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:34.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm still fourteen, but still one hundred percent believing that

0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 2>we have not accomplished the mission. So I know that

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:41.040
<v Speaker 2>the mission is going to somehow have to continue. Yeah.

0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:46.040
<v Speaker 1>After abducting jan a second time, Birch Told evaded charges

0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:49.560
<v Speaker 1>by claiming he had a mental defect. He ended up

0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:54.280
<v Speaker 1>serving five months at a psychiatric facility before being released.

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:56.640
<v Speaker 1>What was your attitude towards your parents?

0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:59.760
<v Speaker 2>My mom describes that day when because I was listed

0:35:59.760 --> 0:36:02.160
<v Speaker 2>as a run away I had to be processed through

0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:04.440
<v Speaker 2>the system. I literally spent a night in jail, in

0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:09.000
<v Speaker 2>my own hometown jail. It was horrible. I am so

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:14.680
<v Speaker 2>angry at my whole life and my parents that when

0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:20.520
<v Speaker 2>they processed me and then they drove me home. Now

0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:23.120
<v Speaker 2>I haven't seen my family for all these months.

0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:24.719
<v Speaker 3>I've been homesick for them.

0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:28.840
<v Speaker 2>There was definitely sure all of that, but I did nothing.

0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:30.600
<v Speaker 3>My mother sees us pull up.

0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:35.239
<v Speaker 2>I walked through the back door, and I look at her,

0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:38.560
<v Speaker 2>and she looks at me like she wants to put

0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:40.560
<v Speaker 2>her arms out, she wants to hug me. And I

0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:43.560
<v Speaker 2>walk down the stairs. I never say two words to her.

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:45.480
<v Speaker 2>I walk down to my bedroom in the back. I

0:36:45.520 --> 0:36:49.320
<v Speaker 2>closed the door, and my mother says, I still didn't

0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:52.160
<v Speaker 2>have the words or the what or how to get

0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:52.480
<v Speaker 2>you to.

0:36:52.480 --> 0:36:53.760
<v Speaker 3>Talk, and I wasn't talking.

0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:57.800
<v Speaker 2>And then the whole abuse and meeting up with birch

0:36:57.840 --> 0:36:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Hold happened for another two years.

0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:03.160
<v Speaker 1>So you've come back, you're in your parents' home. The

0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:04.560
<v Speaker 1>abuse continues.

0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:07.319
<v Speaker 2>Yes, when I go and meet up with him, even

0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:10.120
<v Speaker 2>though he was totally not supposed to be in our county.

0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:12.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there was a whole court order that he

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.239
<v Speaker 2>could never you know, but I would meet up with him,

0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:16.600
<v Speaker 2>the abuse would continue. We're trying to make sure we

0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:20.640
<v Speaker 2>have this, you know, this baby to save this dying planet.

0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:27.520
<v Speaker 2>And I am going further and further down into a

0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:34.040
<v Speaker 2>loneliness and a state of desperation that I can't really

0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>describe fully. But I put on the happy face, just

0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:38.960
<v Speaker 2>like all the just like all the kids do that

0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:42.279
<v Speaker 2>are being abused, come to school and they act like

0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:43.480
<v Speaker 2>everything's fine.

0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Bearing the burden of sexual trauma, having to carry this

0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:52.560
<v Speaker 1>sort of catastrophic secret that you truly believe that the

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:55.680
<v Speaker 1>world is going to be destroyed because you have been

0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:59.680
<v Speaker 1>indoctrinated into this belief system since you were about ten

0:37:59.760 --> 0:38:03.439
<v Speaker 1>years old. Yeah, and so now you're six years into

0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:05.839
<v Speaker 1>being told that this is it would be like being

0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:07.320
<v Speaker 1>raised in a doomsday cult.

0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:09.120
<v Speaker 3>Yes, where you don't have other information.

0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:11.160
<v Speaker 2>You don't have any other information, right, I don't know

0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:12.520
<v Speaker 2>what's normal what's not.

0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:13.400
<v Speaker 3>At this point?

0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:15.600
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything that's going through your mind? Is there's

0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:18.680
<v Speaker 1>something wrong about somebody who keeps pulling me away from

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:19.480
<v Speaker 1>my family?

0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:24.359
<v Speaker 2>The only disconnect was the requirement that I was not

0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 2>to have a relationship with my father or any other boys.

0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:35.000
<v Speaker 2>And that was so hard for me because I was

0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:36.400
<v Speaker 2>so close to my dad.

0:38:36.520 --> 0:38:39.319
<v Speaker 3>He was just my life. I loved my father, we

0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:39.839
<v Speaker 3>all did.

0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:44.200
<v Speaker 2>And you know, to his credit and to any parent

0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:46.600
<v Speaker 2>listening out there where your child's behavior has.

0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Changed so severely.

0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:52.239
<v Speaker 2>My dad, when I would push him away, when I

0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:54.440
<v Speaker 2>would ignore him, when I would turn away, when I'd

0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:58.920
<v Speaker 2>never let him touch me, my dad would just say,

0:39:00.239 --> 0:39:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what's wrong, Jenny, but I'm here whenever

0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:05.920
<v Speaker 2>you need me.

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:07.239
<v Speaker 3>I love you.

0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:11.439
<v Speaker 2>I would die for you. And it was so unconditional

0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:11.879
<v Speaker 2>and it.

0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:12.560
<v Speaker 3>Was so real.

0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:15.960
<v Speaker 2>And it was right before my sixteenth birthday that I

0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:18.520
<v Speaker 2>knew I was going to be vaporized. That I made

0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:21.680
<v Speaker 2>a plan. I started to test the waters. I started

0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:25.279
<v Speaker 2>to talk to boys at school. As school started, I

0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:28.319
<v Speaker 2>accepted a date to a dance with a boy that

0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:30.560
<v Speaker 2>I didn't really know. And when I came home from

0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:33.680
<v Speaker 2>the dance and my dad was asleep in his lazy

0:39:33.719 --> 0:39:37.279
<v Speaker 2>boy chair waiting up for me, and I walked through

0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:41.120
<v Speaker 2>the door and I looked at him and I sat

0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:43.680
<v Speaker 2>and he woke up and he say, oh, Jenny, did

0:39:43.680 --> 0:39:45.359
<v Speaker 2>you have a good time. It was my first aid,

0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, I did Dad.

0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:49.080
<v Speaker 1>And I sat on the.

0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:52.399
<v Speaker 2>Arm of that chair and talked to my dad for

0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:55.960
<v Speaker 2>like the first time since basically after the first kidnapping,

0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:58.120
<v Speaker 2>when I had already been told you can't have any

0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:01.000
<v Speaker 2>relationships with any other men, including your father.

0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:03.000
<v Speaker 3>And we talked about.

0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:05.680
<v Speaker 2>The date, and I gave him a little kiss on

0:40:05.719 --> 0:40:08.919
<v Speaker 2>the forehead, and I walked down the hallway and there

0:40:08.920 --> 0:40:12.839
<v Speaker 2>my mom's asleep, Karen's asleep, Susan's asleep, everybody's safe. And

0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:16.680
<v Speaker 2>I just went, I don't think you're real. I don't

0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:19.560
<v Speaker 2>think this is real. And I did not have a

0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.600
<v Speaker 2>clue what I was going to do next. I didn't

0:40:22.640 --> 0:40:25.000
<v Speaker 2>know what to do next. I didn't know if I

0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:27.960
<v Speaker 2>should tell somebody or even how to do that. And

0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:31.320
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't until my best friend Caroline and Karen, my sister,

0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:33.920
<v Speaker 2>basically dragged it out of me within a couple of

0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:35.839
<v Speaker 2>weeks of that experience.

0:40:36.120 --> 0:40:38.600
<v Speaker 1>It absolutely is a process. One of our experts was

0:40:38.640 --> 0:40:41.680
<v Speaker 1>a cult expert, doctor Yanya Lala. She uses this example

0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:43.719
<v Speaker 1>of a shelf in the back of your head, and

0:40:43.840 --> 0:40:47.399
<v Speaker 1>one day you see things in a way that they

0:40:47.480 --> 0:40:50.360
<v Speaker 1>pile up on there that you now see what this

0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:53.200
<v Speaker 1>really is. Yeah, the shelf breaks.

0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, that's a great way to say it,

0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:58.239
<v Speaker 2>because it has to come to that.

0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:01.680
<v Speaker 1>All that stuff piled up more, more experiences, and then

0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:04.600
<v Speaker 1>ultimately it was that you did make a leap of faith.

0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:07.920
<v Speaker 1>And so that leap of faith to allow something as

0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:11.560
<v Speaker 1>simple as a boy a dance and the world didn't

0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:15.399
<v Speaker 1>stop to me is one of the most profound metaphors

0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:18.960
<v Speaker 1>for healing I've ever heard, because there are moments for

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.239
<v Speaker 1>many people will say, but if I do this, then

0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:23.040
<v Speaker 1>this terrible thing will happen, And you know, they just

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:25.560
<v Speaker 1>have been so brought into the structure and one day

0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:29.840
<v Speaker 1>they do the simplest thing and the world doesn't stop spinning.

0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:32.960
<v Speaker 1>For many survivors, it's the idea that if I speak out,

0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:35.520
<v Speaker 1>then all these terrible things will happen, my family will

0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:37.560
<v Speaker 1>fall apart, or I'm going to end up on the

0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:40.640
<v Speaker 1>streets or whatever. And then they do the thing, whatever

0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:44.040
<v Speaker 1>it might be. In someone situation file for divorce, speak

0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:46.799
<v Speaker 1>out about abuse, and while it does take them to

0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:49.279
<v Speaker 1>a different difficult phase of their life, it's now from

0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:52.600
<v Speaker 1>a place of clarity and the healing can begin for

0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:55.799
<v Speaker 1>you that shelf break moment, as doctor Yanya would call

0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:58.520
<v Speaker 1>it was starting to see things. All the things you

0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:03.400
<v Speaker 1>were told would happen didn't, And now is when healing

0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:09.160
<v Speaker 1>could start, slowly, slowly to begin. Once you realized that

0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:11.799
<v Speaker 1>everything he was telling you about about the aliens and

0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:15.440
<v Speaker 1>all this wasn't true, did you connect to the idea

0:42:15.480 --> 0:42:17.920
<v Speaker 1>that Birch told this whole time had been abusing you.

0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:18.520
<v Speaker 3>I did.

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:22.560
<v Speaker 2>It was pretty quickly, so hard, it was, it was terrible.

0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:27.600
<v Speaker 1>In her book The Jan Broberg Story, Jan estimates that

0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:31.680
<v Speaker 1>Birch told sexually, abused or raped her approximately two hundred

0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:34.440
<v Speaker 1>times over a four year period.

0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Even when many many years later he died by suicide.

0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I had people calling me and I said, it's so

0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:49.640
<v Speaker 2>weird because I'm crying, like I'm sad, but I'm so relieved.

0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:53.400
<v Speaker 2>But I'm I guess I'm sad for the little girl,

0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:58.719
<v Speaker 2>and I'm sad for his children. And I don't even

0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:00.600
<v Speaker 2>know how to process the fielding.

0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:02.240
<v Speaker 3>That I'm having. Why would I be at all sad

0:43:02.280 --> 0:43:02.560
<v Speaker 3>for him?

0:43:02.600 --> 0:43:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Because I was also relieved and elated, and I had

0:43:05.080 --> 0:43:08.600
<v Speaker 2>all these various feelings. And I think that was the

0:43:08.760 --> 0:43:13.319
<v Speaker 2>same way it was when I started to unpack what

0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:15.719
<v Speaker 2>he had actually done and it took me a long

0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:18.279
<v Speaker 2>time to talk about the abuse. I just called it

0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:19.800
<v Speaker 2>the icky stuff, and I said I don't want to

0:43:19.800 --> 0:43:23.440
<v Speaker 2>talk about it, and my parents just kind of honored that.

0:43:23.480 --> 0:43:24.880
<v Speaker 2>I said, there was ikey stuff and I don't want

0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:26.920
<v Speaker 2>to talk about it. It wasn't really until I was

0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:31.359
<v Speaker 2>in college and I was writing an English assignment about

0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:34.160
<v Speaker 2>a period of time in your life that was significant

0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:37.560
<v Speaker 2>and it had to be long, fifteen twenty pages, and

0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:39.080
<v Speaker 2>I would call home and I would.

0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:41.879
<v Speaker 3>Be like, Okay, I want to talk about this. Why

0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:42.799
<v Speaker 3>didn't you know this? And that?

0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:43.000
<v Speaker 2>You know?

0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:44.920
<v Speaker 3>When people asked me, how did you forgive your parents?

0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I said, look, I had wonderful parents.

0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:47.279
<v Speaker 3>First of all.

0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:50.239
<v Speaker 2>That was the foundation luckily that I had.

0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:52.160
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't my parents, Thank goodness.

0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how kids survive that, but they do. Also,

0:43:57.040 --> 0:43:59.960
<v Speaker 2>every time that I would call and I would be upset,

0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:04.200
<v Speaker 2>they just acknowledged my feelings. They didn't try to defend themselves.

0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:06.799
<v Speaker 2>They didn't try to if anything, they just said, we're

0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:09.520
<v Speaker 2>so sorry, we wish we had known, we were so sorry.

0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:10.680
<v Speaker 3>What can we do?

0:44:10.840 --> 0:44:14.200
<v Speaker 2>How can we help you know what's next? Because we

0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:18.439
<v Speaker 2>just we love you always. It was just unconditional from

0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:21.560
<v Speaker 2>my mom and my dad, and I'd experienced that before

0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and I experienced it again as I tried to begin healing,

0:44:25.280 --> 0:44:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and that was really a big, huge plus for me.

0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:31.960
<v Speaker 2>For those that it was parents or grandparents, you know,

0:44:32.080 --> 0:44:37.360
<v Speaker 2>somebody in the family, Ugh, I do have a huge

0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:43.520
<v Speaker 2>empathetic heart because they were supposed to be protected and

0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:46.960
<v Speaker 2>nurtured and they didn't get that correct correct. You know.

0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:51.360
<v Speaker 1>Doctor gebro Matte talks about the idea that equally horrific

0:44:51.440 --> 0:44:54.360
<v Speaker 1>as the trauma that happens to the child is the

0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:57.279
<v Speaker 1>sense for the child that they weren't protected, especially when

0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:00.200
<v Speaker 1>it's happening within the family system. I have to say, though,

0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:02.200
<v Speaker 1>when I heard your mother say that your parents never

0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:06.759
<v Speaker 1>attempted to defend themselves, and that was a big part

0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:09.319
<v Speaker 1>of your healing. One of the hardest things is when

0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:12.919
<v Speaker 1>people are part of a traumatic system. They themselves were

0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:15.839
<v Speaker 1>not perpetrating per se, but they were part of a

0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:18.920
<v Speaker 1>system that may have sort of allowed something to happen.

0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Most people, when we are having to face up to

0:45:24.200 --> 0:45:28.200
<v Speaker 1>our contribution to someone else's pain, our first go to

0:45:28.440 --> 0:45:31.040
<v Speaker 1>is to defend ourselves. Well, you need to know that

0:45:31.120 --> 0:45:32.680
<v Speaker 1>this was going on and you need to know that

0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:34.879
<v Speaker 1>this and I didn't know that, and I didn't know this.

0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:40.440
<v Speaker 1>I agree that their willingness to say I am so sorry,

0:45:40.680 --> 0:45:42.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, how can we be here for you? There

0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:46.439
<v Speaker 1>is no excuse like that, even though many people say,

0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:51.200
<v Speaker 1>well that's frustrating too. It's a much more towards the

0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:56.120
<v Speaker 1>right direction of healing than somebody trying to defend their

0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:59.720
<v Speaker 1>position when it was your pain. How has it affected

0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:03.040
<v Speaker 1>you long term, your relationships, how you entered life as

0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:06.759
<v Speaker 1>an adult woman and lived and loved as an adult woman.

0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, a lot of trial and error because I

0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:15.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't really have a guide necessarily to say, oh, this

0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:17.920
<v Speaker 2>is how we deal with trauma, this is what you

0:46:17.960 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 2>can do. So for me, I went through many relationships,

0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:27.400
<v Speaker 2>multiple marriages. I was looking to reclaim somehow that twelve thirteen, fourteen,

0:46:27.480 --> 0:46:31.000
<v Speaker 2>fifteen year old experience. So I was not operating out

0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:36.320
<v Speaker 2>of a fully formed, you know, adult woman mind set.

0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I was just lucky, but substance

0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:42.000
<v Speaker 2>abuse or drugs, alcohol, that never was a part of

0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:45.360
<v Speaker 2>my struggle. But it was definitely relationships that were a

0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.439
<v Speaker 2>struggle for me. And how do I, you know, let

0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:51.640
<v Speaker 2>go of what happened and be able to have, you know,

0:46:51.680 --> 0:46:52.680
<v Speaker 2>a good sex life.

0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:54.080
<v Speaker 3>How do I be able to have a.

0:46:54.040 --> 0:46:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Good relational life that is an adult relationship that can grow.

0:46:57.880 --> 0:46:59.880
<v Speaker 2>It's been a struggle for me my whole life. And

0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:04.320
<v Speaker 2>then I really feel like some certain things that became

0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:10.040
<v Speaker 2>very transformative for me are basically those twelve transformational breakthroughs

0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:12.520
<v Speaker 2>that I can now identify that happened in my life

0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:16.080
<v Speaker 2>for me to become the person that I am today,

0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:18.719
<v Speaker 2>where I am a very happy person, I'm a very

0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:22.719
<v Speaker 2>healthy person, and I feel like I just want to

0:47:22.719 --> 0:47:26.120
<v Speaker 2>help other people get there faster and sooner. That's really

0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:28.799
<v Speaker 2>what I've kind of created in my own kind of

0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:32.560
<v Speaker 2>twelve step program for sexual assault and abuse survivors, especially

0:47:32.680 --> 0:47:34.480
<v Speaker 2>child abuse survivors.

0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:39.000
<v Speaker 1>You said there was sort of twelve transformational points moments. Yeah,

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:41.640
<v Speaker 1>don't expect you to list all twelve, but what were

0:47:41.680 --> 0:47:42.279
<v Speaker 1>some of those?

0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Telling my story for the first time and a friend

0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:47.480
<v Speaker 2>of mine had a little book club and she said,

0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:49.640
<v Speaker 2>come tell your story. And as I told my story

0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:52.799
<v Speaker 2>and the questions they asked me, I was like, oh, yeah,

0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:54.160
<v Speaker 2>I have an answer for that, or.

0:47:54.560 --> 0:47:56.359
<v Speaker 3>I can tell you something you know that.

0:47:56.560 --> 0:47:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I realized not only was it good for me to

0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:02.160
<v Speaker 2>get it out side and to have other people hear me,

0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:05.359
<v Speaker 2>but it was good for them. And so step one

0:48:06.120 --> 0:48:12.080
<v Speaker 2>telling your story being believed is really important and not blamed.

0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Finding that person or a group where you can be

0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:18.239
<v Speaker 2>safe to tell your story and know that you will

0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:21.600
<v Speaker 2>be believed. So that's when I started an online community.

0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:25.920
<v Speaker 2>It's called Thrivevers Survivor plus Thriving is thriving, so you're

0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:29.880
<v Speaker 2>a thriviver and in that community, those are the ground rules.

0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:31.400
<v Speaker 3>It's a safe place.

0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:34.160
<v Speaker 2>There's no judgment here, you are always believed, you will

0:48:34.200 --> 0:48:38.680
<v Speaker 2>never be blamed. And so having a space like that,

0:48:38.800 --> 0:48:40.759
<v Speaker 2>if you can't find that with your parents or with

0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.560
<v Speaker 2>someone else, is really a big key because I believe

0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:48.040
<v Speaker 2>that just festers, especially adults that it happened when they

0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:51.040
<v Speaker 2>were children. They say it takes on average twenty one

0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:54.880
<v Speaker 2>years for a woman to come forward and disclose, and

0:48:54.960 --> 0:48:56.160
<v Speaker 2>that most men never do.

0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:58.640
<v Speaker 1>And most men never do. I say that as a clinician,

0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:00.320
<v Speaker 1>and I don't think we can put you find a

0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:03.799
<v Speaker 1>point on that is that many men never speak out

0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.360
<v Speaker 1>about it. I think the shaming for men is it's

0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:08.840
<v Speaker 1>a different process. It's not a worsom, whether it's a

0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:12.000
<v Speaker 1>different process, and how men are taught to sort of

0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:15.160
<v Speaker 1>manage those kinds of emotions and experiences, how they're received

0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:17.320
<v Speaker 1>by the world. In terms of you telling your story,

0:49:17.440 --> 0:49:20.239
<v Speaker 1>that's one of the hardest things for trauma survivors because

0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.200
<v Speaker 1>you got almost view. Trauma's got these different elements to it.

0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:25.600
<v Speaker 1>I think for some people, the telling the story is hard,

0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.520
<v Speaker 1>but then there's this whole experience they're having, and then

0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.239
<v Speaker 1>there's the fear, there's the shame, there's the disbelief, all

0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:32.520
<v Speaker 1>the things people come up against.

0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:34.319
<v Speaker 2>My mom and I had been asked to speak at

0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:36.920
<v Speaker 2>an educational conference and the other gentleman who was a

0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:40.520
<v Speaker 2>keynote speaker, he said, I've been a superior court judge

0:49:40.520 --> 0:49:42.280
<v Speaker 2>for a number of years, but I was an attorney

0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:44.720
<v Speaker 2>for children and children's rights, and all of my cases

0:49:45.200 --> 0:49:48.560
<v Speaker 2>had to do with criminal pedophiles, and your story contains

0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:51.560
<v Speaker 2>all of the elements every case I've ever worked with.

0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:54.200
<v Speaker 2>It's in your story. And he said, there will be

0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:57.280
<v Speaker 2>millions of people that will resonate with your story because

0:49:57.520 --> 0:49:59.839
<v Speaker 2>even if it isn't, you know, the same exact thing,

0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:03.440
<v Speaker 2>they've been groomed. It was somebody they knew, and it

0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:06.160
<v Speaker 2>doesn't look like a scary stranger. So those basic things

0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:11.880
<v Speaker 2>are so important for someone to feel that they can

0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:16.920
<v Speaker 2>share in a safe place and that they can survive

0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:22.200
<v Speaker 2>the blowback that may happen, because it is that first

0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:26.719
<v Speaker 2>place of putting it in words that are outside of

0:50:26.760 --> 0:50:30.759
<v Speaker 2>your body that you can examine. I studied brainwashing. I

0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:32.720
<v Speaker 2>studied the tactics that he.

0:50:32.680 --> 0:50:34.080
<v Speaker 3>Used on me. I have names.

0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:36.040
<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah, you know that makes a big difference.

0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Does make a big difference. I mean so glad you

0:50:37.920 --> 0:50:43.920
<v Speaker 1>said that, because these things do have names. Right. Gaslighting

0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:48.759
<v Speaker 1>is a psychopathy, is a thing, Grooming is a process,

0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:52.520
<v Speaker 1>and these have been substantiated. They are things that are

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:55.319
<v Speaker 1>designed to bring a person to the point where they

0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:57.640
<v Speaker 1>no longer trust themselves and are more likely to trust

0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:01.360
<v Speaker 1>someone outside of them even more. It can happen to

0:51:01.600 --> 0:51:04.799
<v Speaker 1>any of us. It doesn't happen because someone is foolish.

0:51:04.880 --> 0:51:07.719
<v Speaker 1>It's often based on the establishment of trust. And then

0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:10.480
<v Speaker 1>on top of that, when we throw into this all

0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:14.840
<v Speaker 1>of these mechanisms that are based in manipulation and exploitation

0:51:15.400 --> 0:51:20.200
<v Speaker 1>and learning about someone's vulnerabilities and infiltrating a system. None

0:51:20.200 --> 0:51:23.560
<v Speaker 1>of this is against the law, and so our systems

0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:26.799
<v Speaker 1>are designed to react to this. So something terrible has

0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:30.560
<v Speaker 1>to happen. Someone has to be sexually abused, or assaulted

0:51:30.680 --> 0:51:33.360
<v Speaker 1>or raped. Somebody has to be manipulated and exploited the

0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:35.960
<v Speaker 1>way you were with these unfounded beliefs, and you know,

0:51:36.040 --> 0:51:38.799
<v Speaker 1>having that belief system be hijacked. And even none of

0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:42.560
<v Speaker 1>those things, the sexual abuse, sexual assault is illegal, but

0:51:42.680 --> 0:51:45.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the things that still happen to someone

0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:48.520
<v Speaker 1>in these experiences still fly under that radar. So we

0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:51.080
<v Speaker 1>have all this data on what's leading up to it,

0:51:51.360 --> 0:51:54.120
<v Speaker 1>but there's not a single legal place you can act

0:51:54.200 --> 0:51:57.040
<v Speaker 1>on this. Does that make sense? Total a porities, We

0:51:57.080 --> 0:52:02.719
<v Speaker 1>go to the law enforcement that justices they got nothing right,

0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:05.399
<v Speaker 1>so when it gets over that line that they can

0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:09.920
<v Speaker 1>do something about it, so much harm has now already

0:52:10.120 --> 0:52:14.160
<v Speaker 1>happened to this person that from a mental health perspective,

0:52:14.440 --> 0:52:17.800
<v Speaker 1>the amount of work we need to do is extraordinary.

0:52:17.840 --> 0:52:21.360
<v Speaker 1>And then on top of that, because these things aren't illegal,

0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:25.520
<v Speaker 1>they're not talked about enough. The world looks with suspicion

0:52:26.040 --> 0:52:29.919
<v Speaker 1>at the person who is perpetrated against rather than at

0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:34.360
<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator, which not that I'm saying that they're signing

0:52:34.400 --> 0:52:37.680
<v Speaker 1>off on the perpetrator. What I'm saying is that to

0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:41.799
<v Speaker 1>believe that there had to be something wrong with and

0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:43.600
<v Speaker 1>I hate the word victim, I'm going to use it

0:52:43.640 --> 0:52:45.440
<v Speaker 1>for a minute, but that there had to be something

0:52:45.640 --> 0:52:50.520
<v Speaker 1>wrong with the victim makes the world safer because otherwise

0:52:50.920 --> 0:52:54.400
<v Speaker 1>we are all potentially susceptible to a birch hold, and

0:52:54.520 --> 0:52:57.319
<v Speaker 1>that makes the world far too terrifying to live in.

0:52:57.360 --> 0:53:00.160
<v Speaker 1>So it's easier to say what's wrong with Jan? What

0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:03.480
<v Speaker 1>was wrong with Jan's family? And that story repeats every

0:53:03.520 --> 0:53:04.600
<v Speaker 1>single damn day.

0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:06.920
<v Speaker 3>It does, and it repeats by the thousands.

0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:10.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because we would rather talk about murder, We would

0:53:10.239 --> 0:53:13.280
<v Speaker 2>rather talk about children that are kidnapped, in sex trafficked

0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:15.400
<v Speaker 2>in another country than we would talk about the one

0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:19.400
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand children that are being perpetrated right now for

0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:22.239
<v Speaker 2>every one or two of those other victims, which is

0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:25.319
<v Speaker 2>a terrible thing, and murders terrible and all of that,

0:53:25.440 --> 0:53:29.600
<v Speaker 2>But the number of people, it's twenty five percent of

0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:34.120
<v Speaker 2>the world has gone through childhood's sexual assault and abuse.

0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Those are facts and figures of those that have reported

0:53:39.200 --> 0:53:43.080
<v Speaker 2>to those organizations that can tell you these are the.

0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:46.879
<v Speaker 1>Numbers, correct, correct, and that creates people who often don't

0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:49.760
<v Speaker 1>get the help. We do not have the support, especially

0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:52.760
<v Speaker 1>if it happened either within the family or the family

0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:55.240
<v Speaker 1>just doesn't get on board. It wasn't a healthy family

0:53:55.280 --> 0:53:59.160
<v Speaker 1>system to begin with. I remember hearing that Elizabeth's Smart

0:53:59.239 --> 0:54:03.439
<v Speaker 1>story had a major role in you speaking out about yours.

0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:04.879
<v Speaker 3>She'd been missing for nine months.

0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Of course, I'm glued to the TV, and I knew

0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:11.839
<v Speaker 2>when they showed the pictures of her exactly what had

0:54:11.880 --> 0:54:14.680
<v Speaker 2>happened to her, because she was downtown Salt Lake, you know,

0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:18.279
<v Speaker 2>she had the little like veil and stuff on, and

0:54:18.719 --> 0:54:22.080
<v Speaker 2>I was like, Oh, yeah, she's been brainwashed for sure.

0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:25.080
<v Speaker 2>That day was a woman that came on to the

0:54:25.200 --> 0:54:28.600
<v Speaker 2>television in her car where the newscaster was going down

0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the street.

0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Hey, have you heard the news? Have you heard the news?

0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:32.200
<v Speaker 2>And the people are like, oh, we're so grateful, We're

0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:33.839
<v Speaker 2>so happy for her family, we've been praying for them,

0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:36.240
<v Speaker 2>blah blah blah. And then this woman in this car,

0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:37.880
<v Speaker 2>he said to have you heard the news that Elizabeth

0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Smart's been found? And she took her hands off the

0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:41.960
<v Speaker 2>steering wheel, she folded her arms in front of her.

0:54:42.120 --> 0:54:44.319
<v Speaker 2>She looked at the newscaster, and she said, I think

0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:47.840
<v Speaker 2>this is ridiculous, this is disgusting. Didn't she know how

0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:50.160
<v Speaker 2>much time and money we were spending trying to find her?

0:54:50.239 --> 0:54:53.520
<v Speaker 2>Her picture was everywhere she was right downtown. Why didn't

0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:56.440
<v Speaker 2>she run in the street and start screaming? At that

0:54:56.760 --> 0:55:02.919
<v Speaker 2>moment it codified h what is missing in this conversation

0:55:03.600 --> 0:55:09.200
<v Speaker 2>is people do not understand grooming and who the predators are. No,

0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:11.279
<v Speaker 2>I knew why she didn't run in the street and

0:55:11.280 --> 0:55:14.200
<v Speaker 2>start screaming. Even if her mother had been standing right

0:55:14.239 --> 0:55:17.600
<v Speaker 2>beside her, she may not have said anything or lifted

0:55:17.680 --> 0:55:19.600
<v Speaker 2>up the little veil and said, mom, it's me, help me.

0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:23.160
<v Speaker 2>The missing piece of this conversation in my mind that

0:55:23.320 --> 0:55:28.640
<v Speaker 2>day was the grooming and how that leads to the

0:55:28.640 --> 0:55:31.640
<v Speaker 2>brainwashing and why people don't run in the street and

0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:32.360
<v Speaker 2>start screaming.

0:55:32.480 --> 0:55:36.279
<v Speaker 1>That sort of cold face of public opinion, which absolutely

0:55:36.560 --> 0:55:40.000
<v Speaker 1>is not trauma informed, that doesn't understand what happens in

0:55:40.040 --> 0:55:43.120
<v Speaker 1>these kinds of circumstances of her petration and abuse in

0:55:43.239 --> 0:55:46.600
<v Speaker 1>somebody who is young, who is a child or an adolescent.

0:55:47.000 --> 0:55:49.880
<v Speaker 1>That that is something that literally should be taught to

0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:56.399
<v Speaker 1>every educator, every cop, every judge, every attorney, every lawmaker,

0:55:56.920 --> 0:56:01.520
<v Speaker 1>everyone needs to understand this and realize that something is

0:56:01.560 --> 0:56:04.879
<v Speaker 1>happening and that we would all be at some level

0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:08.720
<v Speaker 1>vulnerable to that. Yeah, I understand that Oprah's gratitude journal

0:56:08.760 --> 0:56:09.600
<v Speaker 1>has really worked for you.

0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Can you talk a little bit about other round of

0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:13.960
<v Speaker 2>my transformational breakthroughs. I was around a table with a

0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.960
<v Speaker 2>bunch of other friends women. We were complaining about everything.

0:56:17.160 --> 0:56:19.799
<v Speaker 2>I got home and I thought, no, I don't want

0:56:19.840 --> 0:56:21.880
<v Speaker 2>to be the person with the saddest story, because I

0:56:21.880 --> 0:56:24.520
<v Speaker 2>could top all of theirs. I don't want to be

0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:27.280
<v Speaker 2>that person. I actually want to be the happiest person

0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:28.880
<v Speaker 2>at the table that people want to be with me

0:56:29.520 --> 0:56:32.279
<v Speaker 2>because I have hope, I have joy, I have that.

0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:35.799
<v Speaker 2>And then I had heard Oprah talk about keeping a

0:56:35.840 --> 0:56:38.200
<v Speaker 2>gratitude journal, you know, and I was kind of exploring,

0:56:38.280 --> 0:56:41.040
<v Speaker 2>like how can I actually shift that in myself, and

0:56:41.080 --> 0:56:43.080
<v Speaker 2>so committed that I would do it for two years

0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:44.400
<v Speaker 2>and I wouldn't miss a day, and it had to

0:56:44.440 --> 0:56:44.840
<v Speaker 2>be different.

0:56:44.840 --> 0:56:46.400
<v Speaker 3>You could never repeat, you know.

0:56:46.520 --> 0:56:48.520
<v Speaker 2>After you ran out of the obvious things like you know,

0:56:48.600 --> 0:56:51.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm so grateful for my son, or you know, all

0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:55.160
<v Speaker 2>the people, you had to start looking and that was

0:56:55.239 --> 0:57:00.359
<v Speaker 2>the process that allowed the shift to happen in doing

0:57:00.400 --> 0:57:03.479
<v Speaker 2>that work of taking that thirty seconds to actually think

0:57:03.560 --> 0:57:05.879
<v Speaker 2>through my day or as I'm going through my day,

0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:07.920
<v Speaker 2>what am I going to write? And so it was

0:57:08.440 --> 0:57:10.759
<v Speaker 2>the day that my stepdaughter passed away in a car

0:57:10.800 --> 0:57:14.839
<v Speaker 2>accident that i'd been keeping this gratitude journal. And when

0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:16.800
<v Speaker 2>I got back with all the other kids, her three

0:57:16.840 --> 0:57:19.680
<v Speaker 2>sisters and my son, we were all devastated, and that

0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:22.080
<v Speaker 2>little journal was sitting there, and we'd all been crying,

0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:25.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it was just a really heartbreaking day.

0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:27.960
<v Speaker 2>And I looked at it and I was like, no, nope,

0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:29.600
<v Speaker 2>I can't think of anything not today.

0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:32.360
<v Speaker 3>It's not fair. I don't have to do that. And

0:57:32.440 --> 0:57:33.480
<v Speaker 3>I didn't have to do it.

0:57:33.960 --> 0:57:36.760
<v Speaker 2>But then I remembered going to pick up her sister

0:57:37.800 --> 0:57:40.160
<v Speaker 2>as I was trying to take them all from you know,

0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:42.320
<v Speaker 2>southern Utah down to Salt Lake where she had been

0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:45.240
<v Speaker 2>life flighted and was in her seventh surgery, trying to

0:57:45.280 --> 0:57:48.400
<v Speaker 2>get there before she passed. Didn't make it, got about

0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:50.120
<v Speaker 2>halfway there and they said turned around and go home,

0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and I had to tell all the kids that she

0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:55.560
<v Speaker 2>had died that were in the car. I'm sorry, Oh

0:57:55.640 --> 0:57:57.480
<v Speaker 2>it was a day it was so hard.

0:57:57.560 --> 0:57:59.200
<v Speaker 3>But I remembered when I went to pick.

0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Up Melissa, her sister that's just younger than she is.

0:58:03.400 --> 0:58:05.840
<v Speaker 2>She was at a friend's house. It was Labor Day weekend,

0:58:05.920 --> 0:58:08.640
<v Speaker 2>and it had been raining and the road was muddy,

0:58:08.680 --> 0:58:10.080
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get stuck

0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:10.320
<v Speaker 2>in the ud.

0:58:10.320 --> 0:58:11.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm not going to get to Melissa. I gotta get her.

0:58:11.800 --> 0:58:13.720
<v Speaker 2>I gotta get her, you know, I gotta get her

0:58:13.720 --> 0:58:14.000
<v Speaker 2>in the car.

0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:15.040
<v Speaker 3>We gotta go, we gotta go.

0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:17.640
<v Speaker 2>And all of a sudden, I hit gravel on that

0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:21.000
<v Speaker 2>road and I could get to the house.

0:58:20.840 --> 0:58:21.560
<v Speaker 3>To pick her up.

0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:29.720
<v Speaker 2>And so that day, that night, I remembered that there

0:58:29.800 --> 0:58:35.040
<v Speaker 2>was gravel, and that's what I wrote, I'm grateful for gravel.

0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:43.920
<v Speaker 2>And I know that the exercise, the practice of doing

0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:48.280
<v Speaker 2>that for those two years, it changed who I was.

0:58:49.680 --> 0:58:56.160
<v Speaker 2>It had a true psychological and physiological change, but I

0:58:56.240 --> 0:59:01.240
<v Speaker 2>had to practice. And so knowing that things can shift

0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:05.120
<v Speaker 2>for you in such an extraordinary way for me on

0:59:05.160 --> 0:59:10.000
<v Speaker 2>a day like that, to me is evidence that we

0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:13.560
<v Speaker 2>can We may not know how, but we can choose

0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:18.800
<v Speaker 2>to get on the path to healing, to get on

0:59:18.880 --> 0:59:21.640
<v Speaker 2>the path to finding the right therapist to get on

0:59:21.720 --> 0:59:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the path to finding the right exercises, the right things

0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:30.360
<v Speaker 2>to do for us in order to come back to

0:59:30.440 --> 0:59:33.160
<v Speaker 2>what I call our perfect record that we were born with.

0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:35.400
<v Speaker 2>It has our own music, and it's very unique to us,

0:59:35.400 --> 0:59:38.000
<v Speaker 2>and it's our own playlist, and it's our own soundtrack

0:59:38.040 --> 0:59:40.080
<v Speaker 2>to our life. And then somebody puts this huge scratch

0:59:40.120 --> 0:59:43.760
<v Speaker 2>on your record with that abuse, and what you really

0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:45.920
<v Speaker 2>have to get good at when the needle gets stuck,

0:59:46.560 --> 0:59:48.240
<v Speaker 2>you have to get good at picking it up and

0:59:48.280 --> 0:59:52.280
<v Speaker 2>moving it past the scratch, and you do it over

0:59:52.440 --> 0:59:56.040
<v Speaker 2>and over and over again throughout your life. Scratch doesn't

0:59:56.080 --> 0:59:58.840
<v Speaker 2>necessarily go away, but you can form a new.

0:59:58.680 --> 1:00:02.960
<v Speaker 1>Groove that I love that and it's music, and you

1:00:03.000 --> 1:00:04.640
<v Speaker 1>still get to keep the song you do.

1:00:04.960 --> 1:00:08.840
<v Speaker 2>It's your unique music, your soundtrack, but you have to

1:00:08.960 --> 1:00:10.800
<v Speaker 2>choose it and then you have to.

1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:11.360
<v Speaker 3>Do the work.

1:00:11.680 --> 1:00:14.840
<v Speaker 2>And it may take medication, it may take all kinds

1:00:14.880 --> 1:00:17.920
<v Speaker 2>of things. I'm not saying it's easy, but to stand

1:00:18.080 --> 1:00:21.440
<v Speaker 2>up for yourself, to take the time to say I

1:00:21.480 --> 1:00:24.880
<v Speaker 2>am worthy of healing. If you were to give advice

1:00:25.120 --> 1:00:27.960
<v Speaker 2>while I get to be here with you today, what

1:00:28.000 --> 1:00:30.440
<v Speaker 2>would be your advice for people that are still dealing

1:00:30.480 --> 1:00:33.880
<v Speaker 2>with so much shame, which is so misplaced. They didn't

1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:37.320
<v Speaker 2>do anything wrong. How do we get past that so

1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:39.720
<v Speaker 2>that we can get to the point of going, Okay,

1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:41.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to stand for my healing. I'm going to

1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:44.480
<v Speaker 2>get involved in a group. I'm gonna read the books,

1:00:44.520 --> 1:00:46.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do the exers, I'm going to do it.

1:00:46.800 --> 1:00:57.040
<v Speaker 1>My conversation will continue after this break. It's a multi

1:00:57.080 --> 1:00:59.280
<v Speaker 1>step because it's going to be a little different for everyone,

1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:02.480
<v Speaker 1>depending on what they endure, the kinds of supports they have.

1:01:02.880 --> 1:01:05.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm sitting in front of someone right now who went

1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:15.520
<v Speaker 1>through a very very severe, pervasive, persistent, developmentally significant trauma.

1:01:15.640 --> 1:01:18.800
<v Speaker 1>Right so that's capital T, no question about it. But

1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:21.160
<v Speaker 1>I want you to imagine you're carrying a messy backpack

1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:24.000
<v Speaker 1>or a messy bag, and I'd say, let's dump this

1:01:24.080 --> 1:01:26.080
<v Speaker 1>thing out, and i want to see what we've got

1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:29.280
<v Speaker 1>here to work with. And in doing that, I'll say, okay,

1:01:29.280 --> 1:01:32.240
<v Speaker 1>look there, actually there's like seventeen crumpled dollars in here.

1:01:32.240 --> 1:01:33.720
<v Speaker 1>You's out you had no money. There's actually a little

1:01:33.720 --> 1:01:36.520
<v Speaker 1>bit of money here, and this stuff we don't need.

1:01:36.600 --> 1:01:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Let's let's figure out a way to get rid of this,

1:01:38.840 --> 1:01:41.080
<v Speaker 1>and I see what we don't have here, right, I

1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.720
<v Speaker 1>don't see your driver's license, or I don't see you know,

1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:46.439
<v Speaker 1>whatever else you might need. My point in this saying

1:01:46.480 --> 1:01:49.520
<v Speaker 1>this is in everyone's bag is something different. In your

1:01:49.640 --> 1:01:52.640
<v Speaker 1>particular case, you had the very complicated space of family.

1:01:52.680 --> 1:01:56.200
<v Speaker 1>And I say complicated because the first twelve years of

1:01:56.240 --> 1:02:00.960
<v Speaker 1>your life were unconditionally loving and securely attached, and you

1:02:01.040 --> 1:02:05.120
<v Speaker 1>felt confident and in yourself. Right. That is not often

1:02:05.120 --> 1:02:07.160
<v Speaker 1>the case for a lot of trauma survivors, right, but

1:02:07.280 --> 1:02:10.720
<v Speaker 1>you had that. But then your parents obviously you've forgiven

1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:13.040
<v Speaker 1>them and all of that. But there may very well

1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:15.120
<v Speaker 1>have been a moment in time when you thought, why

1:02:15.120 --> 1:02:18.040
<v Speaker 1>didn't you keep me safe? For right, going back to

1:02:18.120 --> 1:02:21.560
<v Speaker 1>doctor Gabromante's point of not feeling safe, not being protected

1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:24.880
<v Speaker 1>and the support's there, it might have been this access

1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:27.240
<v Speaker 1>to therapy. It was your willingness to say, okay, there

1:02:27.240 --> 1:02:30.720
<v Speaker 1>are things like the gratitude journaling process that Oprah had

1:02:30.760 --> 1:02:33.600
<v Speaker 1>talked about. Was that forcing yourself of you every day?

1:02:33.600 --> 1:02:36.280
<v Speaker 1>You can't say that I woke up like you get

1:02:36.320 --> 1:02:38.520
<v Speaker 1>to do that. Once that you've got to move on.

1:02:38.640 --> 1:02:40.840
<v Speaker 1>It's almost like this retraining of the brain. It's like

1:02:40.880 --> 1:02:44.080
<v Speaker 1>the clearing of the groove into a mindset of growth,

1:02:44.160 --> 1:02:47.920
<v Speaker 1>of noticing joy, because joy is something that trauma survivors

1:02:47.960 --> 1:02:50.960
<v Speaker 1>often are afraid to notice. It feels like it could

1:02:51.000 --> 1:02:54.320
<v Speaker 1>be taken away. There's almost like a safe it feels

1:02:54.360 --> 1:02:57.760
<v Speaker 1>unsafe exactly. So I would say that it's understanding everyone's

1:02:57.760 --> 1:02:59.720
<v Speaker 1>story is different, because the one thing I always want

1:02:59.760 --> 1:03:02.720
<v Speaker 1>to tell folks is that there's no one size fits all.

1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:05.080
<v Speaker 1>Your journey and healing is going to be very different

1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:07.760
<v Speaker 1>than someone else's. And people might sometimes say, look, I

1:03:07.760 --> 1:03:10.400
<v Speaker 1>can't even heal right, you know, so it's adding up

1:03:10.440 --> 1:03:12.800
<v Speaker 1>that shame of like, look, they're doing fine, and I

1:03:12.880 --> 1:03:14.640
<v Speaker 1>can't even think of a thing to be thankful for

1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:17.480
<v Speaker 1>what's wrong with me? And I think that it's getting

1:03:17.480 --> 1:03:19.320
<v Speaker 1>away from the what's wrong with you. Some people just

1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:22.000
<v Speaker 1>need education. They need to understand what a psychopath is,

1:03:22.040 --> 1:03:24.760
<v Speaker 1>they need to understand what grooming is, they need to

1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:27.640
<v Speaker 1>understand what those processes were. When we think about what

1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:35.480
<v Speaker 1>trauma informed work looks like, it's things like safety, accountability, empowerment, choice,

1:03:35.560 --> 1:03:38.520
<v Speaker 1>And the key for a trauma survivor is to recognize

1:03:38.680 --> 1:03:42.280
<v Speaker 1>there is choice because all of that was taken away

1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:45.160
<v Speaker 1>from anyone in the moment of trauma. There was no choice.

1:03:45.640 --> 1:03:48.280
<v Speaker 1>So sometimes it's even I can choose to write this

1:03:48.280 --> 1:03:51.320
<v Speaker 1>thing in the Gratitude Journal, there are choices I can make.

1:03:51.360 --> 1:03:54.800
<v Speaker 1>Each step of this is a choice. Therapy is essential.

1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:58.640
<v Speaker 1>I do think that you know, without therapy, there is

1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:02.000
<v Speaker 1>really not a path for with someone who knows sexual trauma.

1:04:02.080 --> 1:04:05.600
<v Speaker 1>And if it's early life trauma, who knows child sexual trauma.

1:04:06.160 --> 1:04:09.280
<v Speaker 1>To be with a therapist who gets that, who creates

1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:14.120
<v Speaker 1>that safe, non judgmental space, is absolutely crucial. And there

1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:17.360
<v Speaker 1>are people out there who do absolutely extraordinary work in

1:04:17.400 --> 1:04:20.680
<v Speaker 1>that way, and that becomes a lifelong process, and the

1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:23.480
<v Speaker 1>life longness of it is also Listen, we do lots

1:04:23.520 --> 1:04:26.320
<v Speaker 1>of things for our health lifelong. We make healthier food choices,

1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:29.640
<v Speaker 1>how we sleep, the movement, we engage in, whatever it

1:04:29.680 --> 1:04:33.080
<v Speaker 1>may be. This is no different. It's just that it's

1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:35.240
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a steeper climb. And then there

1:04:35.240 --> 1:04:38.200
<v Speaker 1>are the leaps of faith, like having a family, you

1:04:38.200 --> 1:04:43.400
<v Speaker 1>have a son, how did your experience impact how you've

1:04:43.480 --> 1:04:44.480
<v Speaker 1>mothered your son.

1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Wanted always to have the communication part because that became

1:04:51.120 --> 1:04:54.160
<v Speaker 2>such an important part of my recovery with my own

1:04:54.480 --> 1:04:59.840
<v Speaker 2>parents and my own family. So I remember having deep,

1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:04.320
<v Speaker 2>really truly deep conversations with my five year old, like

1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:07.400
<v Speaker 2>the first time he ever asked me about where babies

1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:10.000
<v Speaker 2>come from or said something like that. I mean, we

1:05:10.160 --> 1:05:12.120
<v Speaker 2>just you know, laid it out, you know, and and

1:05:12.960 --> 1:05:15.280
<v Speaker 2>he didn't seem scared of it. I know there's this

1:05:15.360 --> 1:05:18.000
<v Speaker 2>age appropriate thing that you have to be aware of,

1:05:18.120 --> 1:05:20.280
<v Speaker 2>but for me, it was like, whatever he asked, I'm

1:05:20.320 --> 1:05:22.959
<v Speaker 2>going to tell him the truth. And that is why

1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I think that we are still so close today. We

1:05:25.160 --> 1:05:28.800
<v Speaker 2>have very deep conversations about all kinds of things. He

1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:31.760
<v Speaker 2>knew that I was never going to be mad at him,

1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:34.720
<v Speaker 2>that he knew that he could tell me anything. But

1:05:34.800 --> 1:05:37.640
<v Speaker 2>I kept thinking, if I'll tell him at the right time,

1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:40.960
<v Speaker 2>my own story, if he can know that I'm doing

1:05:41.320 --> 1:05:45.280
<v Speaker 2>my best, and there's been trauma that I have passed on,

1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:48.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, to him, because of my multiple marriages and

1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:51.480
<v Speaker 2>things that I you know, it's taken me a long

1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:52.160
<v Speaker 2>time to figure out.

1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:53.720
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if I still haven't figured out.

1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:56.200
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I was more cautious in some ways, but

1:05:56.240 --> 1:05:59.080
<v Speaker 2>maybe not cautious enough in other ways. You know. It's

1:05:59.080 --> 1:06:00.840
<v Speaker 2>interesting I look back and I'm like, why was I

1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:03.320
<v Speaker 2>as trusting as I was? That was one of the

1:06:03.480 --> 1:06:06.120
<v Speaker 2>key pieces for my own healing. I couldn't go through

1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:10.200
<v Speaker 2>my life not trusting people. That was a miserable existence.

1:06:10.760 --> 1:06:14.000
<v Speaker 2>And I made a very firm decision that unless somebody

1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:17.440
<v Speaker 2>gives me a reason not to trust them, or I

1:06:17.520 --> 1:06:21.160
<v Speaker 2>have that gut spidey sense feeling that something's off, I'm

1:06:21.200 --> 1:06:22.200
<v Speaker 2>going to trust people.

1:06:22.280 --> 1:06:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Amazing because a lot of people listening to this will

1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:27.560
<v Speaker 1>say I experienced trauma and I can't trust to which

1:06:27.600 --> 1:06:30.040
<v Speaker 1>I'd say, and that's okay too. Of course, those are

1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:33.080
<v Speaker 1>the processes that people might say, I'm still very tentative,

1:06:33.120 --> 1:06:34.840
<v Speaker 1>and you know about your son. We actually had the

1:06:34.880 --> 1:06:38.120
<v Speaker 1>opportunity to talk with Jewel on our show. She talked

1:06:38.320 --> 1:06:42.280
<v Speaker 1>really beautifully about something called an emotional inheritance that we get.

1:06:42.560 --> 1:06:44.720
<v Speaker 1>And you know what I loved about that model is

1:06:44.920 --> 1:06:48.640
<v Speaker 1>we are given that emotional inheritance, good, bad, and indifferent, right,

1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:51.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, from our parents. But it's an intergenerational inheritance

1:06:51.960 --> 1:06:54.800
<v Speaker 1>because that emotional inheritance is also based on what the

1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:57.920
<v Speaker 1>generations before us have gone through. We went through something,

1:06:58.040 --> 1:07:00.360
<v Speaker 1>and for all the things we do for our kids,

1:07:00.400 --> 1:07:03.320
<v Speaker 1>they get the whole thing and certain wisdom that comes

1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:06.240
<v Speaker 1>from that. But there's also a certain difficulty that comes

1:07:06.240 --> 1:07:09.880
<v Speaker 1>from that. We know trauma is intergenerational, and so there

1:07:09.960 --> 1:07:12.439
<v Speaker 1>is that generation though that says I need to make

1:07:12.480 --> 1:07:15.480
<v Speaker 1>sure I do everything I can to keep my child safe,

1:07:15.480 --> 1:07:18.040
<v Speaker 1>and then with the hope that that just keeps getting

1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:19.960
<v Speaker 1>paid forward. A lot of people will say a lot

1:07:19.960 --> 1:07:21.960
<v Speaker 1>of their healing happened through parenthood.

1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:23.240
<v Speaker 3>Yes, oh, definitely.

1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:26.320
<v Speaker 2>For me, it's definitely been one of the best things

1:07:26.360 --> 1:07:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that's ever motivated me or made me want to, you know,

1:07:32.480 --> 1:07:35.880
<v Speaker 2>look a little harder at what could I be working on.

1:07:36.080 --> 1:07:38.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, it takes a lot of trial and error

1:07:38.560 --> 1:07:41.439
<v Speaker 2>or trying different things and going, well, that didn't work,

1:07:41.520 --> 1:07:42.560
<v Speaker 2>let's try something else.

1:07:42.760 --> 1:07:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Something else exactly. And I think that's every human being.

1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:47.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's unique to people who've been through trauma.

1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:48.600
<v Speaker 3>Don't either.

1:07:48.800 --> 1:07:53.000
<v Speaker 1>What would you say to parents listening to this episode

1:07:53.040 --> 1:07:55.760
<v Speaker 1>who might have a suspicion, as you call it, spidey

1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:59.280
<v Speaker 1>sense or intuition about a friend or their child has

1:07:59.400 --> 1:08:02.600
<v Speaker 1>come to them about something that's happened. What would you

1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:04.800
<v Speaker 1>say to parents under those situations?

1:08:05.000 --> 1:08:08.920
<v Speaker 2>First of all, I would say listen, trust what you're feeling.

1:08:09.480 --> 1:08:11.320
<v Speaker 2>I know that we live in a world where we

1:08:12.040 --> 1:08:16.799
<v Speaker 2>really want to give a lot of grace to people.

1:08:16.880 --> 1:08:19.080
<v Speaker 2>We want to not be judgmental of people.

1:08:19.240 --> 1:08:19.840
<v Speaker 3>I am so.

1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:23.040
<v Speaker 2>About all of that, I really am. It's a huge

1:08:23.120 --> 1:08:26.799
<v Speaker 2>part of my own life. But when you have something

1:08:26.840 --> 1:08:30.280
<v Speaker 2>that hits your gut like something is off, it's something

1:08:30.400 --> 1:08:33.200
<v Speaker 2>is wrong, or the way my child responds when he's

1:08:33.240 --> 1:08:36.160
<v Speaker 2>around that family member or that person at school, or

1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:40.240
<v Speaker 2>that you dance teacher, or whatever whatever it is, you

1:08:40.439 --> 1:08:44.120
<v Speaker 2>have to listen to that because your subconscious, you know,

1:08:44.200 --> 1:08:47.880
<v Speaker 2>your computer system that is taking in all this data,

1:08:48.680 --> 1:08:52.559
<v Speaker 2>It's got a lot of unconscious reasons for why you

1:08:52.680 --> 1:08:56.800
<v Speaker 2>have that feeling, I think, and so often we can't

1:08:56.840 --> 1:08:59.280
<v Speaker 2>even consciously understand why listen.

1:08:59.280 --> 1:09:01.960
<v Speaker 1>We have a vision of what a perpetrator looks like, right,

1:09:02.160 --> 1:09:04.519
<v Speaker 1>we have that vision in our mind. There's a look.

1:09:05.640 --> 1:09:08.479
<v Speaker 1>The problem is a lot of perpetrators don't have the look.

1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:12.519
<v Speaker 1>They Birch Tol didn't. Nope, he did not have the look.

1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:16.880
<v Speaker 1>In fact, he was considered attractive and people welcomed him

1:09:16.880 --> 1:09:19.559
<v Speaker 1>into the church and thought he wasn't great. Think it's

1:09:19.600 --> 1:09:21.960
<v Speaker 1>the hiding and plain sight of it all as the

1:09:22.080 --> 1:09:26.000
<v Speaker 1>wolf in sheep's clothing and the grooming process. It's about

1:09:26.080 --> 1:09:29.720
<v Speaker 1>really that psychopathic ability to sort of worm your way in.

1:09:30.080 --> 1:09:33.880
<v Speaker 1>And most people want to believe human beings, human relationships,

1:09:33.960 --> 1:09:37.439
<v Speaker 1>human societies can only exist on the basis of trust.

1:09:37.960 --> 1:09:40.320
<v Speaker 1>If we don't trust anybody, there's no You really can't

1:09:40.400 --> 1:09:42.640
<v Speaker 1>leave the house. The fact of the matter is is

1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:46.880
<v Speaker 1>it's listening to kids. It's believing them. It's trusting your gut.

1:09:47.000 --> 1:09:49.800
<v Speaker 1>It's maybe erring on the side of being conservative. It's

1:09:50.040 --> 1:09:52.479
<v Speaker 1>doing your due diligence saying, hey, my kid's going to

1:09:52.520 --> 1:09:55.000
<v Speaker 1>hang out here, I'd love to come by and spend

1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:57.160
<v Speaker 1>some time here. Who else is in the house. It's

1:09:57.200 --> 1:09:59.959
<v Speaker 1>asking the questions. We often don't even give ourselves permission

1:10:00.520 --> 1:10:04.639
<v Speaker 1>to ask those questions, and so kids do not make

1:10:04.680 --> 1:10:08.000
<v Speaker 1>stuff up. It is too terrifying because children have to

1:10:08.040 --> 1:10:10.559
<v Speaker 1>believe the world is safe, right, even more than adults do.

1:10:11.160 --> 1:10:14.760
<v Speaker 1>So to make this up, knowing the stakes, they need

1:10:14.800 --> 1:10:18.519
<v Speaker 1>the social ties. When a child speaks, talk to them,

1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:22.480
<v Speaker 1>pay attention to them. And I think from time immemorial

1:10:23.200 --> 1:10:27.799
<v Speaker 1>we have not accorded equal rights to children. I really

1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:31.880
<v Speaker 1>have not in paying attention to what they're saying, hearing

1:10:31.920 --> 1:10:34.760
<v Speaker 1>them and if anything, more than anything, we now know

1:10:35.400 --> 1:10:38.160
<v Speaker 1>there shouldn't be equal rights for children. There should be

1:10:38.240 --> 1:10:41.960
<v Speaker 1>more rights for children because they don't have the capacity

1:10:42.000 --> 1:10:46.240
<v Speaker 1>to advocate for themselves. And while there have been glacial

1:10:46.360 --> 1:10:49.320
<v Speaker 1>movements in that direction, obviously the world doesn't look like

1:10:49.360 --> 1:10:52.240
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen seventies. We're still not there. People say, what's

1:10:52.240 --> 1:10:53.919
<v Speaker 1>the most important thing we could do in the world.

1:10:54.120 --> 1:10:57.559
<v Speaker 1>That's a top three and that means everything. Ensuring they're

1:10:57.560 --> 1:11:00.639
<v Speaker 1>well fed, ensuring they have shelter and reading, they're well

1:11:00.640 --> 1:11:04.759
<v Speaker 1>cared for, and frankly, jan, if children were kept safe

1:11:04.800 --> 1:11:07.519
<v Speaker 1>and free of trauma, I wouldn't have a job anymore

1:11:07.560 --> 1:11:09.240
<v Speaker 1>and I would be thrilled.

1:11:09.320 --> 1:11:12.759
<v Speaker 2>Right, That is the core of all this other stuff,

1:11:13.160 --> 1:11:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the other things that come, you know, the criminal activity,

1:11:16.240 --> 1:11:20.280
<v Speaker 2>the substance abuse, the cutting, the anarexia, the bolima, the

1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:24.920
<v Speaker 2>mental health issues. I mean, it stems from this, And

1:11:24.960 --> 1:11:28.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, why are we not spending all of our

1:11:28.680 --> 1:11:33.840
<v Speaker 2>money trying to create awareness campaigns for adults and educational

1:11:33.920 --> 1:11:37.040
<v Speaker 2>campaigns for kids with all the appropriate words, so that

1:11:37.040 --> 1:11:39.479
<v Speaker 2>that six year old who's grown up with this abuse,

1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:44.040
<v Speaker 2>at some point in school goes, oh, This isn't the

1:11:44.080 --> 1:11:46.720
<v Speaker 2>way all the kids in my class get treated at No.

1:11:47.160 --> 1:11:49.639
<v Speaker 1>No, and the shame and the fear and all that.

1:11:50.320 --> 1:11:52.599
<v Speaker 1>I want to double back to birche Told for a minute.

1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:56.639
<v Speaker 1>He continued to contact you for decades after the abuse.

1:11:58.120 --> 1:12:01.439
<v Speaker 1>Can you talk about the last time you saw him?

1:12:01.600 --> 1:12:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So this was same year that Elizabeth Smart was found.

1:12:07.240 --> 1:12:09.760
<v Speaker 2>It was in two thousand and three, and I'm doing

1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:12.040
<v Speaker 2>some conferences and I get asked to speak at a

1:12:12.160 --> 1:12:15.280
<v Speaker 2>university that's an hour away from where he was living.

1:12:15.360 --> 1:12:18.120
<v Speaker 2>I had no idea he was this close to me

1:12:18.200 --> 1:12:21.719
<v Speaker 2>and my family, no idea he'd remarried and he's about

1:12:21.760 --> 1:12:24.160
<v Speaker 2>an hour away. Sees my picture on a poster, my

1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:27.320
<v Speaker 2>face that I'm going to do this conference telling my story. Well,

1:12:27.400 --> 1:12:29.840
<v Speaker 2>little did we know that birch Told had been making

1:12:29.840 --> 1:12:33.240
<v Speaker 2>threats against this university, like you can't have this girl talk,

1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:36.479
<v Speaker 2>she's made up this story whatever. Well, because all of

1:12:36.479 --> 1:12:39.240
<v Speaker 2>that was happening, they almost canceled me, and so I

1:12:39.280 --> 1:12:42.479
<v Speaker 2>went and filed a stocking injunction now knowing that he's

1:12:42.560 --> 1:12:45.120
<v Speaker 2>like an hour away from where I live. And then

1:12:45.800 --> 1:12:50.439
<v Speaker 2>what happened was you have to go to court if

1:12:50.479 --> 1:12:54.800
<v Speaker 2>the person on the other side contestsct it, and he did,

1:12:54.920 --> 1:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>and I was I was shocked, though he actually wanted

1:12:58.920 --> 1:13:00.720
<v Speaker 2>to go into a courtroom.

1:13:01.400 --> 1:13:02.960
<v Speaker 3>So anyway, I had to show up in court.

1:13:03.680 --> 1:13:06.640
<v Speaker 2>And there I'm sitting like he's as close to me

1:13:06.680 --> 1:13:09.160
<v Speaker 2>as you are, you know, three four feet away from

1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:12.000
<v Speaker 2>me at a different table. The courtroom is full of

1:13:12.040 --> 1:13:16.519
<v Speaker 2>my friends and family, and he's defending himself and at

1:13:16.560 --> 1:13:19.400
<v Speaker 2>one point, I mean, I'm shaking like I'm twelve years old.

1:13:19.760 --> 1:13:21.680
<v Speaker 3>This whole thing is just like, oh my gosh, he's

1:13:21.760 --> 1:13:22.200
<v Speaker 3>right here.

1:13:23.040 --> 1:13:26.679
<v Speaker 2>I haven't seen this guy for twenty seven, twenty eight years.

1:13:26.479 --> 1:13:27.000
<v Speaker 3>At that time.

1:13:27.400 --> 1:13:30.799
<v Speaker 2>And he says this thing to the judge in response

1:13:30.840 --> 1:13:34.240
<v Speaker 2>to it, what is your defense against this stocking injunction

1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:37.960
<v Speaker 2>being placed in force? And he said, well, first of all,

1:13:37.960 --> 1:13:40.439
<v Speaker 2>she's made up this story. And I hear that ABC

1:13:40.479 --> 1:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>wants to tell her story, and I just want to

1:13:42.000 --> 1:13:44.160
<v Speaker 2>know how much money she's getting from telling her story.

1:13:44.640 --> 1:13:47.800
<v Speaker 2>There was something about that particular comment, because I've really

1:13:47.840 --> 1:13:52.519
<v Speaker 2>never made any money significantly on telling my story, and

1:13:52.600 --> 1:13:54.640
<v Speaker 2>anything that I've made I've put back into trying to

1:13:54.640 --> 1:13:57.479
<v Speaker 2>start organizations and other things that I think will help people.

1:13:58.920 --> 1:14:02.960
<v Speaker 2>At that time, though, in life life, some mother Mama

1:14:03.160 --> 1:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Tiger took that little girl that was shaking for the

1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:10.000
<v Speaker 2>whole first like forty five minutes of that proceeding, and

1:14:10.240 --> 1:14:14.720
<v Speaker 2>just wrapped her big claw arms around that little girl

1:14:14.760 --> 1:14:15.519
<v Speaker 2>and was like, I'm going to.

1:14:15.560 --> 1:14:17.960
<v Speaker 3>Keep you safe. I'm going to protect you. You don't

1:14:17.960 --> 1:14:18.479
<v Speaker 3>need to worry.

1:14:18.520 --> 1:14:20.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm right here, and I'm going to tell him to

1:14:20.439 --> 1:14:24.599
<v Speaker 2>his face exactly what I need to say to make

1:14:24.680 --> 1:14:26.559
<v Speaker 2>you feel safe. I mean, it was just like it

1:14:26.640 --> 1:14:29.840
<v Speaker 2>happened in an instant. And I turned to him and

1:14:29.960 --> 1:14:32.800
<v Speaker 2>pointed at him, and I said, mister Birch, told, the

1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:35.360
<v Speaker 2>only reason that I have ever told my story and

1:14:35.400 --> 1:14:38.400
<v Speaker 2>will continue to tell my story, is to protect other

1:14:38.520 --> 1:14:43.360
<v Speaker 2>children from monsters like you. Now, if you were really sorry,

1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:47.240
<v Speaker 2>you would stand up, tell the truth, and serve your.

1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:48.360
<v Speaker 3>Time in jail.

1:14:50.400 --> 1:14:53.639
<v Speaker 2>And I sat down, and I was done being scared.

1:14:54.160 --> 1:14:56.080
<v Speaker 1>But chan, you know what he said, because I just

1:14:56.200 --> 1:14:57.679
<v Speaker 1>watched it again last night.

1:14:58.040 --> 1:15:00.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, go ahead, you tell everybody.

1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Sorry you feel that way.

1:15:02.400 --> 1:15:03.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, put it all back on me.

1:15:03.960 --> 1:15:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, sorry you feel that way is a narcissist's apology.

1:15:09.280 --> 1:15:13.519
<v Speaker 1>It is a psychopath's apology. There is no responsibility taking

1:15:13.560 --> 1:15:16.759
<v Speaker 1>there It is sorry you feel that way, as though

1:15:17.200 --> 1:15:20.320
<v Speaker 1>you don't have a right to that feeling. I heard that.

1:15:20.360 --> 1:15:22.639
<v Speaker 1>I was one of those moments. I mean, we had established,

1:15:22.680 --> 1:15:25.200
<v Speaker 1>beyond a shadow of doubt, this dude's a psychopath. But

1:15:25.320 --> 1:15:28.800
<v Speaker 1>I was like, right till the bitter end, listen, I've

1:15:28.800 --> 1:15:31.720
<v Speaker 1>never met the man. Now he's dead. So this is speculative,

1:15:31.760 --> 1:15:35.080
<v Speaker 1>but based on the behavior, everything we saw, how it unfolded,

1:15:35.920 --> 1:15:40.479
<v Speaker 1>the intensity of the grooming, the systematic nature of it,

1:15:40.600 --> 1:15:45.960
<v Speaker 1>the callousness of it, the unwilling, the absolute and utter

1:15:46.040 --> 1:15:51.360
<v Speaker 1>lack of remorse, right to the bitter end, zero remorse,

1:15:51.760 --> 1:15:56.479
<v Speaker 1>zero accountability, the parasitic nature of him, finding a family

1:15:56.520 --> 1:15:59.400
<v Speaker 1>member to work with, finding the way to bribe the

1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:02.160
<v Speaker 1>guard with his wedding ring. All of that stuff that

1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:06.519
<v Speaker 1>screams psychopathy to me. And there's a difference between a

1:16:06.520 --> 1:16:11.680
<v Speaker 1>psychopath and a narcissistic person. A narcissistic person can experience

1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:17.360
<v Speaker 1>guilt and shame and negative emotions and remorse, and all

1:16:17.439 --> 1:16:22.040
<v Speaker 1>of those things. Certainly narcissistic, particularly malignant narcissistic people can

1:16:22.120 --> 1:16:24.360
<v Speaker 1>be capable of really horrible things in the context of

1:16:24.360 --> 1:16:30.680
<v Speaker 1>a relationship. But the systematic nature of Birch told the impunity,

1:16:30.720 --> 1:16:33.439
<v Speaker 1>the way he could work systems, all of it that

1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:36.679
<v Speaker 1>smacks of psychopathy, and even more so in something we've

1:16:36.680 --> 1:16:42.520
<v Speaker 1>called the dark tetrad, which is psychopathy meets narcissism meets machiavelianism,

1:16:42.560 --> 1:16:47.240
<v Speaker 1>which is exploitativeness meets sadism. And he was very sadistic.

1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:50.439
<v Speaker 1>The whole alien thing, putting you in such a place

1:16:50.479 --> 1:16:54.360
<v Speaker 1>of fear and terror for so many years, that's sadistic.

1:16:54.720 --> 1:16:56.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, doctor Fry, who I spoke about, has this

1:16:56.920 --> 1:16:59.519
<v Speaker 1>model called darvo. They deny, they attack, and then they

1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:02.479
<v Speaker 1>reverse victim and offender. You know, I'm the one who's

1:17:02.479 --> 1:17:05.759
<v Speaker 1>the victim here. You're all coming at me. I didn't

1:17:05.760 --> 1:17:08.360
<v Speaker 1>do anything wrong. I'm just trying to live my life.

1:17:08.439 --> 1:17:11.720
<v Speaker 1>And then Jan in that courtroom, he twisted it and

1:17:11.760 --> 1:17:13.600
<v Speaker 1>you said, like you made up these stories to a

1:17:13.640 --> 1:17:16.679
<v Speaker 1>little girl about aliens, like and he said, well, what's

1:17:16.720 --> 1:17:20.000
<v Speaker 1>wrong with you? This sounds crazy, judge. Can't you see

1:17:20.000 --> 1:17:23.960
<v Speaker 1>what she's saying? And I thought, I mean gaslighting right

1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:28.840
<v Speaker 1>there in real time in a court. It showed not

1:17:28.880 --> 1:17:31.920
<v Speaker 1>only how pervasive, but how terrifying. And you said there

1:17:31.920 --> 1:17:33.960
<v Speaker 1>were other victims, Oh.

1:17:33.840 --> 1:17:35.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I know.

1:17:35.120 --> 1:17:37.000
<v Speaker 2>There were two before me, and I know there were

1:17:37.040 --> 1:17:40.719
<v Speaker 2>at least four after me. There was no remorse effort.

1:17:40.800 --> 1:17:42.640
<v Speaker 1>The fact of the matter is is that people with

1:17:42.720 --> 1:17:47.880
<v Speaker 1>these personality styles psychopath really narcissistic people, these don't change.

1:17:47.880 --> 1:17:51.439
<v Speaker 1>His personality styles don't change. They will forever perpetrate, which

1:17:51.560 --> 1:17:54.680
<v Speaker 1>really Birche told did until he went out on his

1:17:54.760 --> 1:17:59.040
<v Speaker 1>own terms, basically, and so the unchangingness means that the

1:17:59.240 --> 1:18:02.639
<v Speaker 1>entire onus of prevention is on all the rest of us.

1:18:02.880 --> 1:18:05.880
<v Speaker 1>How to protect our children, how to protect ourselves, which

1:18:05.920 --> 1:18:08.040
<v Speaker 1>goes back to a point you were making earlier. Sadly,

1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:10.400
<v Speaker 1>we do need to be a little less trusting. That's

1:18:10.439 --> 1:18:12.959
<v Speaker 1>what it comes down to. I have kids, they're adults,

1:18:12.960 --> 1:18:15.880
<v Speaker 1>and I still don't trust people because there's nothing that's

1:18:15.920 --> 1:18:19.679
<v Speaker 1>going to stop the perpetrator side. Nothing. So it's all

1:18:19.760 --> 1:18:22.920
<v Speaker 1>about everyone else having the information to say themselves. But

1:18:23.040 --> 1:18:27.000
<v Speaker 1>what you're doing, though, you're healing all the things you've done,

1:18:27.040 --> 1:18:33.120
<v Speaker 1>from therapy to gratitude journaling to fostering supports doing the

1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:36.320
<v Speaker 1>work you've also it's paying it forward. I want to

1:18:36.360 --> 1:18:38.560
<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit more again about thrivivors. Thing I

1:18:38.640 --> 1:18:41.639
<v Speaker 1>want to understand is thrivivors is it designed for people

1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:47.400
<v Speaker 1>who experienced sexual abuse, trauma, assault, rape in childhood, or

1:18:47.479 --> 1:18:49.880
<v Speaker 1>is it for a person who's experienced that at any

1:18:49.960 --> 1:18:51.440
<v Speaker 1>point in their lives.

1:18:51.280 --> 1:18:57.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, because childhood has its own special like ramifications.

1:18:58.200 --> 1:19:02.519
<v Speaker 2>I mostly am speak from that point of view. However,

1:19:02.800 --> 1:19:07.160
<v Speaker 2>I would not necessarily discourage someone from joining our community

1:19:07.320 --> 1:19:09.479
<v Speaker 2>up to the age of twenty five. I consider you,

1:19:10.080 --> 1:19:13.679
<v Speaker 2>I do a child a team between because you don't

1:19:13.720 --> 1:19:17.320
<v Speaker 2>have the mental capacity to have maneuvered through so many things.

1:19:17.360 --> 1:19:20.000
<v Speaker 1>This is high burnout work. Oh yeah, you know, it

1:19:20.120 --> 1:19:21.200
<v Speaker 1>really really is.

1:19:21.320 --> 1:19:21.479
<v Speaker 2>Jen.

1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:23.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you get tired, and that's the one thing

1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:25.320
<v Speaker 1>I want to you know. It's your story reminds me

1:19:25.400 --> 1:19:29.599
<v Speaker 1>that for many survivors, paying it forward and thrivers, paying

1:19:29.640 --> 1:19:32.840
<v Speaker 1>it forward is an important piece of their healing. But

1:19:32.880 --> 1:19:35.599
<v Speaker 1>it's also about pacing yourself because I think some people

1:19:35.600 --> 1:19:37.360
<v Speaker 1>out there they're like, Okay, I'm going to go help

1:19:37.400 --> 1:19:40.200
<v Speaker 1>someone else. I'm like, okay, let's slow down. Let's make

1:19:40.240 --> 1:19:44.679
<v Speaker 1>sure you're putting your healing first. You're doing your stuff first,

1:19:44.880 --> 1:19:47.040
<v Speaker 1>and then you give yourself permission to step back when

1:19:47.040 --> 1:19:49.920
<v Speaker 1>it becomes too much. Because to hear these things over

1:19:49.960 --> 1:19:52.840
<v Speaker 1>and over, that is its own form of re traumatization.

1:19:53.000 --> 1:19:55.080
<v Speaker 1>It's not easy for anyone, not even a mental health

1:19:55.120 --> 1:19:58.160
<v Speaker 1>professional who sometimes needs to sort of step back, and

1:19:58.200 --> 1:20:01.640
<v Speaker 1>so for people who've gone through it. While there is

1:20:01.680 --> 1:20:05.920
<v Speaker 1>a validation and hearing other people's stories, learning from other

1:20:05.920 --> 1:20:10.360
<v Speaker 1>people's journeys, there's also the risk of burning oneself out

1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:14.559
<v Speaker 1>and do healing yeah right now, compassion, fatigue, call it

1:20:14.600 --> 1:20:17.439
<v Speaker 1>what you will. So it's very clear the things that

1:20:17.560 --> 1:20:20.120
<v Speaker 1>you know that have helped you heal, what are still

1:20:20.120 --> 1:20:21.920
<v Speaker 1>some of the barriers for you healing.

1:20:22.040 --> 1:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>I think you just brought up one of them, and

1:20:23.760 --> 1:20:26.439
<v Speaker 2>I think it's self care, which is another transformational breakthrough

1:20:26.479 --> 1:20:30.880
<v Speaker 2>r that you absolutely have to know that your self

1:20:31.000 --> 1:20:35.479
<v Speaker 2>care is not selfish because so often that's where we

1:20:35.560 --> 1:20:40.240
<v Speaker 2>have lived in that shame piece for so long that

1:20:40.360 --> 1:20:43.439
<v Speaker 2>if we take care of ourselves first, that somehow we're

1:20:43.439 --> 1:20:46.599
<v Speaker 2>being selfish because that was just like integrated in every

1:20:47.200 --> 1:20:50.280
<v Speaker 2>aspect of somebody else having control of you and doing

1:20:50.320 --> 1:20:53.160
<v Speaker 2>whatever they told you to do. So I think that

1:20:53.160 --> 1:20:57.960
<v Speaker 2>that whole self awareness, self actualization, self care, to really

1:20:58.080 --> 1:21:03.439
<v Speaker 2>be mindful in that process and to develop mindfulness for

1:21:03.640 --> 1:21:09.000
<v Speaker 2>your own self every day correct is hugely important.

1:21:09.040 --> 1:21:11.439
<v Speaker 1>Well, we see this in complex trauma survivors. It's that

1:21:11.560 --> 1:21:14.880
<v Speaker 1>ability to listen, to get into your body because that's

1:21:14.880 --> 1:21:17.559
<v Speaker 1>where again, our bodies hold the trauma. You know this

1:21:18.080 --> 1:21:21.559
<v Speaker 1>much more than anybody else does. Then it's listening to

1:21:21.680 --> 1:21:24.759
<v Speaker 1>this font of information that is our body and taking

1:21:25.120 --> 1:21:28.320
<v Speaker 1>information from that and learning when sometimes like I need

1:21:28.360 --> 1:21:30.040
<v Speaker 1>to pull back, or I need to not do this,

1:21:30.280 --> 1:21:32.479
<v Speaker 1>or I do need to do this, Like there is this,

1:21:32.600 --> 1:21:35.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, the pain of your body holding or trauma

1:21:35.160 --> 1:21:37.640
<v Speaker 1>is also the exquisiteness of what you learn from it

1:21:37.760 --> 1:21:41.200
<v Speaker 1>and being in tune with that. But to that end though,

1:21:41.360 --> 1:21:43.160
<v Speaker 1>is that you know again, it's all the things you're

1:21:43.160 --> 1:21:45.120
<v Speaker 1>saying that could be barriers for any form of healing

1:21:45.200 --> 1:21:49.440
<v Speaker 1>from any kind of relational trauma. How can people join thrivivers.

1:21:49.520 --> 1:21:52.479
<v Speaker 2>You can go to thrivivers dot com, you can go

1:21:52.600 --> 1:21:56.599
<v Speaker 2>to thrivivers dot so there's several ways to get to

1:21:56.840 --> 1:21:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the community itself. But if you want to have a conversation,

1:22:00.080 --> 1:22:02.799
<v Speaker 2>you can write to one of my social media places.

1:22:02.960 --> 1:22:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I read everything and I reach back out to people

1:22:06.040 --> 1:22:09.360
<v Speaker 2>who are really interested in you know, I'm ready for this.

1:22:09.439 --> 1:22:12.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm ready for some healing and some guidance there and

1:22:12.760 --> 1:22:15.320
<v Speaker 2>to be around other people that already get it. That's

1:22:15.560 --> 1:22:16.200
<v Speaker 2>very safe.

1:22:16.280 --> 1:22:18.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what it is. It's finding other people who

1:22:18.600 --> 1:22:20.679
<v Speaker 1>get it. And we'll obviously have all of this information

1:22:20.760 --> 1:22:22.880
<v Speaker 1>in the show notes for folks who want to look

1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:25.479
<v Speaker 1>into this. And so I'm going to as one last question,

1:22:25.640 --> 1:22:28.280
<v Speaker 1>I know your father passed a few years ago. How's

1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:29.719
<v Speaker 1>your relationship with your mom?

1:22:30.400 --> 1:22:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Really wonderfrid Yeah, she's older, yeah, yeah, and there's some

1:22:38.080 --> 1:22:41.559
<v Speaker 2>memory things happening, and that's hard, you know, because she's

1:22:41.600 --> 1:22:44.439
<v Speaker 2>been such an independent force. She went back to school

1:22:44.439 --> 1:22:47.200
<v Speaker 2>after all of her daughters graduated from college and got

1:22:47.240 --> 1:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>her degree in social work and worked for the state

1:22:50.040 --> 1:22:52.880
<v Speaker 2>of Idaho and also worked in Utah for a period

1:22:52.920 --> 1:22:56.200
<v Speaker 2>of time and placed a large number of children in

1:22:56.240 --> 1:23:00.599
<v Speaker 2>good foster care homes and in adoptive homes the family

1:23:00.640 --> 1:23:01.799
<v Speaker 2>couldn't be or unified.

1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:03.280
<v Speaker 3>And you know, and.

1:23:03.200 --> 1:23:08.040
<v Speaker 2>She's done a lot. She's lobbied for back in the day.

1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I just found the letter that she wrote and then

1:23:10.360 --> 1:23:14.120
<v Speaker 2>she stood up and lobbied to have Idaho be a

1:23:14.160 --> 1:23:16.519
<v Speaker 2>part of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

1:23:16.560 --> 1:23:19.040
<v Speaker 2>It was one of the last states to join. And

1:23:19.960 --> 1:23:22.720
<v Speaker 2>when she told our story that happened, and that was

1:23:22.760 --> 1:23:25.040
<v Speaker 2>back in the eighties early nineties, and I'm like, looking

1:23:25.120 --> 1:23:27.759
<v Speaker 2>at these things that I now have, I'm like, wow,

1:23:28.200 --> 1:23:32.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, just little moments throughout life that you can

1:23:32.640 --> 1:23:34.640
<v Speaker 2>make a big impact and you don't even realize it

1:23:34.680 --> 1:23:37.519
<v Speaker 2>at the time. So you know, I hope I can

1:23:37.560 --> 1:23:40.920
<v Speaker 2>make a difference for somebody and that you know, one

1:23:40.920 --> 1:23:43.559
<v Speaker 2>of these things either my podcast where we do talk

1:23:43.560 --> 1:23:47.320
<v Speaker 2>to survivors and then how are they getting through the

1:23:47.360 --> 1:23:50.439
<v Speaker 2>next steps of their own healing and thriving, And we

1:23:50.479 --> 1:23:53.920
<v Speaker 2>talked to experts and we have those experts are on

1:23:54.080 --> 1:23:56.320
<v Speaker 2>my community as well that come in and do great.

1:23:56.439 --> 1:24:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Well again, everything you're doing, it's amazing and just you

1:24:00.800 --> 1:24:05.719
<v Speaker 1>sharing your story and showing everyone that there's another side,

1:24:06.040 --> 1:24:08.759
<v Speaker 1>and not just another side, but a place of growth,

1:24:09.640 --> 1:24:13.080
<v Speaker 1>a place of thriving, a place of supporting other people

1:24:13.120 --> 1:24:18.120
<v Speaker 1>and helping other people and reminding people that the shame

1:24:18.360 --> 1:24:20.719
<v Speaker 1>is where we get hurt and to bring these stories

1:24:20.760 --> 1:24:23.240
<v Speaker 1>out of the darkness into the light. So again, I

1:24:23.280 --> 1:24:24.519
<v Speaker 1>cannot thank you enough.

1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:28.240
<v Speaker 2>This was one of the highlights of my telling my

1:24:28.360 --> 1:24:31.519
<v Speaker 2>story and being acknowledged. Thank you for being that person.

1:24:31.640 --> 1:24:32.200
<v Speaker 3>I just want to.

1:24:32.200 --> 1:24:35.479
<v Speaker 2>Acknowledge your sister who apparently has been following my.

1:24:35.520 --> 1:24:36.719
<v Speaker 1>Story, and it was the beginning.

1:24:36.800 --> 1:24:38.360
<v Speaker 3>It's just so sweet.

1:24:38.400 --> 1:24:41.640
<v Speaker 2>And I got to meet her briefly through a little face.

1:24:42.080 --> 1:24:44.439
<v Speaker 1>To make you meet her again. Yeah, so she again.

1:24:44.520 --> 1:24:47.040
<v Speaker 1>She was the one who brought your story to my attention,

1:24:47.200 --> 1:24:49.920
<v Speaker 1>and in the minute I heard about it, I said,

1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:53.599
<v Speaker 1>oh my goodness, we absolutely you know, with oh my gosh,

1:24:53.600 --> 1:24:55.479
<v Speaker 1>do you think we could get Jan Ferberg? And she

1:24:55.479 --> 1:24:57.519
<v Speaker 1>said you should try, and here we are. So we

1:24:57.600 --> 1:25:00.400
<v Speaker 1>did and so blessed. So thank you, thank you, thank.

1:25:00.280 --> 1:25:02.519
<v Speaker 3>You, thank you, thank you. And her.

1:25:02.920 --> 1:25:07.639
<v Speaker 1>Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Jan. First,

1:25:08.360 --> 1:25:12.559
<v Speaker 1>Jan's story is a reminder that grooming, the building of trust,

1:25:12.880 --> 1:25:19.120
<v Speaker 1>seeking of vulnerabilities, isolation, and then cultivating opportunities isn't just

1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:23.599
<v Speaker 1>an individual phenomenon, but it can happen within systems. He

1:25:23.680 --> 1:25:27.759
<v Speaker 1>groomed her family, he groomed their community, He even groomed

1:25:27.760 --> 1:25:31.880
<v Speaker 1>his own family. And all of that, coupled with society's

1:25:31.960 --> 1:25:37.760
<v Speaker 1>tendency to not believe children and to believe perpetrators, especially

1:25:37.840 --> 1:25:42.920
<v Speaker 1>perpetrators such as Birchtold who held privilege within society, meant

1:25:42.960 --> 1:25:47.960
<v Speaker 1>that perpetration can last years with few consequences for the perpetrator,

1:25:48.280 --> 1:25:53.519
<v Speaker 1>but a lifetime of consequences for the survivor of the trauma. Next.

1:25:54.080 --> 1:25:59.479
<v Speaker 1>Over so many conversations on navigating narcissism, one theme has

1:25:59.520 --> 1:26:04.479
<v Speaker 1>become clear that, whether it is betrayal, blindness, or cognitive dissonance,

1:26:04.560 --> 1:26:09.960
<v Speaker 1>or self preservation or straight up denial, so much perpetration

1:26:10.200 --> 1:26:13.719
<v Speaker 1>is kept in place by other people in the system

1:26:14.320 --> 1:26:18.759
<v Speaker 1>being afraid of challenging the status quo. A groomed system

1:26:19.040 --> 1:26:23.040
<v Speaker 1>is a vulnerable and distorted system, and that desire to

1:26:23.200 --> 1:26:28.680
<v Speaker 1>not rock the boat sadly often overrides intuition and instincts

1:26:28.960 --> 1:26:33.639
<v Speaker 1>that something isn't right. Perpetrators count on this and are

1:26:33.760 --> 1:26:37.880
<v Speaker 1>basically taking advantage of a very basic human drive to

1:26:38.040 --> 1:26:40.920
<v Speaker 1>keep things the same and not have to face the

1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:46.600
<v Speaker 1>devastation that shifting a worldview can bring. In this next takeaway,

1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:50.599
<v Speaker 1>the patterns and behaviors of the perpetrator, Birch told the

1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:55.640
<v Speaker 1>systematic grooming, the lack of remorse, the entitlement, the grandiosity,

1:26:56.080 --> 1:27:00.799
<v Speaker 1>the relentless and obsessive menace, continuing to send no living

1:27:00.840 --> 1:27:04.439
<v Speaker 1>close to her, the tactic of behaving like a victim

1:27:04.800 --> 1:27:09.479
<v Speaker 1>and setting complex ruses playing upon a girl's fear and

1:27:09.600 --> 1:27:13.479
<v Speaker 1>sense of responsibility with the alien story, but then flipping

1:27:14.000 --> 1:27:16.919
<v Speaker 1>when he talked to adults and making it about mental illness.

1:27:17.479 --> 1:27:22.080
<v Speaker 1>The shifting identities, claiming to be a CIA agent, the

1:27:22.120 --> 1:27:27.760
<v Speaker 1>capacity for constant deceit, the callousness. It all points to psychopathy,

1:27:28.200 --> 1:27:31.599
<v Speaker 1>and people with this kind of antagonistic personality style, which

1:27:31.640 --> 1:27:35.879
<v Speaker 1>is far more dangerous than narcissism, will often exploit systems

1:27:35.920 --> 1:27:39.280
<v Speaker 1>like the courts to play out their entitled beliefs that

1:27:39.400 --> 1:27:43.320
<v Speaker 1>after brutally harming and traumatizing Jan, that she had no

1:27:43.439 --> 1:27:47.320
<v Speaker 1>right to share her story. The entitlement is so unfettered

1:27:47.560 --> 1:27:50.639
<v Speaker 1>that they genuinely believe that they can control that person

1:27:50.920 --> 1:27:55.880
<v Speaker 1>in perpetuity. These stories never end. Folks like this perpetrate

1:27:56.080 --> 1:28:00.280
<v Speaker 1>in perpetuity, and sadly, our court systems keep giving, giving

1:28:00.320 --> 1:28:04.880
<v Speaker 1>them an arena within which to keep perpetrating. For our

1:28:04.960 --> 1:28:09.519
<v Speaker 1>next takeaway, Remarkably, after the acute period of returning to

1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:13.639
<v Speaker 1>her family past, Jan found a place of peace and

1:28:13.720 --> 1:28:17.800
<v Speaker 1>connection with them again. Many people watching or listening to

1:28:17.880 --> 1:28:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Jan's story were angry at her parents for not acting faster,

1:28:21.760 --> 1:28:24.920
<v Speaker 1>for not protecting her more, for not seeing it sooner,

1:28:25.360 --> 1:28:28.920
<v Speaker 1>for getting pulled in. Jan went through her a process

1:28:28.960 --> 1:28:32.160
<v Speaker 1>of understanding, but she did point out something that she

1:28:32.240 --> 1:28:35.439
<v Speaker 1>said helped her as they went through the period of

1:28:35.479 --> 1:28:40.559
<v Speaker 1>healing that her parents never defended themselves, that they shared

1:28:40.680 --> 1:28:44.000
<v Speaker 1>that they were sorry and wanted her to heal. While

1:28:44.120 --> 1:28:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Jan's was a unique story, an important takeaway is that

1:28:47.840 --> 1:28:50.360
<v Speaker 1>when we are supporting someone close to us who has

1:28:50.439 --> 1:28:53.559
<v Speaker 1>gone through something and maybe we didn't get it right

1:28:53.680 --> 1:28:56.840
<v Speaker 1>all along, that we don't fall into the cycle of

1:28:56.880 --> 1:29:03.160
<v Speaker 1>defending ourselves but simply face in to supporting the survivor next.

1:29:03.840 --> 1:29:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Jan shares that she experienced multiple transformational points in her

1:29:08.400 --> 1:29:12.200
<v Speaker 1>process of healing. Some of these included telling her story

1:29:12.240 --> 1:29:16.400
<v Speaker 1>in safe places, paying it forward to other survivors, which

1:29:16.400 --> 1:29:20.840
<v Speaker 1>in her case was establishing a platform to give survivors

1:29:21.000 --> 1:29:27.200
<v Speaker 1>a safe place to share, practicing gratitude, reminding survivors of

1:29:27.240 --> 1:29:31.559
<v Speaker 1>their strengths, and teaching people about these patterns so they

1:29:31.600 --> 1:29:36.080
<v Speaker 1>are aware and can protect children. Everyone shares their story

1:29:36.160 --> 1:29:39.760
<v Speaker 1>in their own way and in their own time, and

1:29:39.800 --> 1:29:43.160
<v Speaker 1>it can take some time to determine what those safe

1:29:43.160 --> 1:29:46.479
<v Speaker 1>spaces are. It may be therapy, it may be a

1:29:46.479 --> 1:29:49.840
<v Speaker 1>support system, it may be a support group. Whatever a

1:29:49.920 --> 1:29:55.240
<v Speaker 1>survivor finds sharing your experience in a way that feels safe,

1:29:55.760 --> 1:29:59.280
<v Speaker 1>in a space free of shame and judgment, and beginning

1:29:59.400 --> 1:30:04.679
<v Speaker 1>the step by step process of healing is essential. And lastly,

1:30:05.520 --> 1:30:08.479
<v Speaker 1>Jan uses a beautiful metaphor, I want to come back

1:30:08.520 --> 1:30:12.639
<v Speaker 1>to here. She talks about her experience of trauma as

1:30:12.680 --> 1:30:16.080
<v Speaker 1>a scratch on a record that causes a favorite song

1:30:16.200 --> 1:30:19.960
<v Speaker 1>to skip, but that with time and healing, that the

1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:23.679
<v Speaker 1>groove becomes less deep and this song can play again,

1:30:24.600 --> 1:30:29.160
<v Speaker 1>and the skip may slowly become less perceptible. Seeking out

1:30:29.280 --> 1:30:32.800
<v Speaker 1>joy and not allowing trauma to steal joy are key

1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:36.560
<v Speaker 1>elements of trauma healing, But again, it takes a minute.

1:30:36.640 --> 1:30:39.599
<v Speaker 1>The metaphor of the scratch on the record reminds us

1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:43.880
<v Speaker 1>that initially everything that is beautiful can seem spoiled and

1:30:43.920 --> 1:30:48.320
<v Speaker 1>disrupted by trauma or abuse, and while the scratch may

1:30:48.400 --> 1:30:53.160
<v Speaker 1>never completely go away, the song can still play again