WEBVTT - Part Five: G. Gordon Liddy: The Fascist Behind Watergate

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<v Speaker 1>Also media Ah, welcome back yet again to Behind the Bastards,

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<v Speaker 1>a podcast about g Gordon Lidty.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we initially did four parts, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>that's probably about as much g Gordon Liddy. I had

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<v Speaker 2>hoped to cover his whole life in full part four parts,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop getting

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<v Speaker 2>into these little rabbit holes, kept getting pulled into things.

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<v Speaker 2>He's just too interesting, and I'm always, you know, whenever

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<v Speaker 2>we have an episode that runs into the multi parts,

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<v Speaker 2>I get kind of anxious because I'm afraid that, like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, no episode is everybody's favorite, right, and so

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<v Speaker 2>we try to we try to have variety. We try

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<v Speaker 2>to go back and forth between you know, we got

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<v Speaker 2>cult leaders, business monsters, Nazis, you know, quack doctors, all

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of stuff, so everybody gets someone what they like.

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<v Speaker 2>So I get worried whenever we start going too long

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<v Speaker 2>on one guy. But I listened to the first four

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<v Speaker 2>episodes and I kept feeling like we were we were

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<v Speaker 2>doing a disservice to the audience by not finishing the G.

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<v Speaker 2>Gordon Liddy story.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I I will admit it didn't feel like

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<v Speaker 3>there was like plenty more to do. There's so much more,

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<v Speaker 3>I think to your to your point, you know, it

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<v Speaker 3>does he does cover. He's like a real like multi

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<v Speaker 3>hyphen it in terms of yeah fuck yeah, true true

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<v Speaker 3>fuck faces in the twentieth century.

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<v Speaker 2>And we're missing still. You know, Watergate is quite a thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and his just his his fascinating brain is worth studying.

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<v Speaker 2>But we're missing a whole chunk of his career, which

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<v Speaker 2>is where he kind of invents the modern concept of

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<v Speaker 2>a right wing influencer in a lot of ways. So Andrew,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome back to the show. Now, folks you you may

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<v Speaker 2>have noticed the absence of a of a certain voice

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<v Speaker 2>in the audience today. Sophie is not here. She was

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<v Speaker 2>taken into custody by Nicaraguan authorities after a brief gun

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<v Speaker 2>battle last weekend. She's fine. We're working on on on

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<v Speaker 2>getting her out.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just a misunderstanding to do with some just.

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<v Speaker 4>Some paperwork that needs to be foed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure, paperwork, paperwork, Yes, that's it, that's right. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>I yes, paperwork, not kidnappings. So Ian Ian Johnson are

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<v Speaker 2>our inimitable editor is sitting in for her today. How

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<v Speaker 2>are you doing?

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<v Speaker 4>Ian I'm doing pretty good. Excited to learn more about

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<v Speaker 4>the g man you know, is burning himself, lighting his

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<v Speaker 4>hands on fire. Yes, I love it, so let's keep

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<v Speaker 4>it coming.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm kind of low key glad that that

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<v Speaker 2>Sophie wound up trying to overthrow the Nicaraguan government last weekend,

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<v Speaker 2>because this is an episode that does need a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of a boys club, because we're going to not

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<v Speaker 2>just be talking about g Gordon Liddy, but a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of concepts of masculinity in our society, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>he kind of embodies pretty well. So this will be good.

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<v Speaker 2>This will be a good, good time for the bro squad.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, we're gonna brow down.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Okay, oh yeah, we're gonna brow down hard everybody. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Ian, when when I was trying to come

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<v Speaker 2>up with ways to introduce this show last night, I

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<v Speaker 2>was thinking of nicknames for you in my head. Since

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't gotten to do that much, I'd.

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<v Speaker 4>Love to hear well.

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<v Speaker 2>I was gonna go with Ebao the Letter, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a reference to an r EM song about Ripper Phoenix

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<v Speaker 2>that that like four people know today. All of the

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<v Speaker 2>people who listen to that song back in the nineties

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<v Speaker 2>are dead now except for like me, and I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to guess dan Aykroyd he was one of Ripper Phoenix's friends, right.

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<v Speaker 4>No, maybe one of the guys in or they don't

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<v Speaker 4>even know it anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, there's no way Michael Stipe remembers this,

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<v Speaker 2>not with all of the Michael Stipe induced brain damage

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<v Speaker 2>he has. Are we are we ready for the last

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<v Speaker 2>of Lyddy?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, okay. When we left off with the g Man,

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<v Speaker 2>he had just been convicted and sentenced to like twenty

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<v Speaker 2>years in prison for his many crimes, many incompetent crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>And obviously Lyddy does not do close to twenty years

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<v Speaker 2>in prison, but he and his family don't know that

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<v Speaker 2>where he goes inside and to all. For everything I

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<v Speaker 2>can tell, I believe he was fully willing to serve

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<v Speaker 2>that amount of time. Right. One thing you can't take

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<v Speaker 2>away from the guy is his commitment to the BIT.

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<v Speaker 2>And the BIT, of course, is fascism, so I don't

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<v Speaker 2>really respect it, but I do respect the commitment, you know. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you just kind of have to pass a certain point.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, I'm worried that I have said made this analogy

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<v Speaker 3>or repeated this analogy before on this very show. But

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<v Speaker 3>it's a little bit the same as like the like

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<v Speaker 3>nine to eleven hijackers. Everyone constantly the calls those attacks cowardly.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely not.

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<v Speaker 3>The one thing they absolutely were not is cowardly.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, it wasn't a good thing to do, but it

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<v Speaker 2>was not cowardly.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it was very brave.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well that I think this goes into actually something

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<v Speaker 2>that's very relevant to these episodes, which is that our

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<v Speaker 2>culture places a moral value on concepts like courage and courage.

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<v Speaker 2>Physical courage is an absolutely a moral value. The SS.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of guys with physical courage in the SS

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter, doesn't make them good. Is not like a

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<v Speaker 2>redeeming trait. And it's the same. Yeah, you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>I say something is respectable, respect does not imply morality.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, if somebody is incredibly good at breaking and

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<v Speaker 2>entering into houses in order to like take people's valuables,

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<v Speaker 2>that may not be a good thing. He's probably hurting

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people, but you have to respect the

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<v Speaker 2>degree of skill in busting through a lock, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Ye. Also that one isn't as ambiguous, unambiguously.

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<v Speaker 2>Bads, No, it's not. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>We've been a breaking an entering. It's all where it

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<v Speaker 3>goes a little.

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<v Speaker 2>Bit of B and A yeah. I guess it depends

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<v Speaker 2>on the B and the E.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So back to Lyddy. So he he goes inside and

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<v Speaker 2>his wife takes a job. I thinks he's a sixth

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<v Speaker 2>grade teacher and is completely the one taking care of

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<v Speaker 2>the family while he is at She has some help

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<v Speaker 2>from Gordon's parents, but his father, Sylvester is going to

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<v Speaker 2>die about halfway through his time in prison, which I

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<v Speaker 2>think seriously reduces the ability of the in laws to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of take care of them. This also means that

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<v Speaker 2>Lyddy is going to be left without the let's say

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<v Speaker 2>questionable moral support that his dad was able to That

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<v Speaker 2>was like the one thing holding him back though right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think if his dad had been alive, he probably

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<v Speaker 2>would have given his dad a copy of the autobiography

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<v Speaker 2>before what published, and his dad would have been like,

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<v Speaker 2>you got a D. D. Hitler This thing by about

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<v Speaker 2>fifty percent.

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<v Speaker 3>Everyone needs that person in your life to just say

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<v Speaker 3>just a less Hitler, less Hitler. I know we all

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<v Speaker 3>want to Hitler a time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, count up, the Hitler references in your book. Cut

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<v Speaker 2>him in half, you know what, cut him in half?

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<v Speaker 2>Half as much Hitler? Fair enough.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like Coco Chanel for Coco Chanell.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, that's right. You just just the Chanel, leave

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<v Speaker 2>the Coco out. I think the problems are in the

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<v Speaker 2>co co So Lyddy's lawyer during this period is a

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<v Speaker 2>guy named Peter Marulis. And if you comb through old

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times articles or their contemporary Watergate coverage, you'll

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<v Speaker 2>see Marulus mentioned a lot. He had a reputation for

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<v Speaker 2>being mild mannered but persistent. He was apparently pretty good looking.

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<v Speaker 2>It's hard to judge his actual competence from this case

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<v Speaker 2>because Lydia doesn't really give him a chance to be

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<v Speaker 2>a great defense lawyer. Right Lyddy is like, I am

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<v Speaker 2>guilty and I will say nothing else, which is, to

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<v Speaker 2>be fair to Peter, a difficult position to be in

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<v Speaker 2>as a defense attorney. You don't have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>wiggle room there. It is really funny the way in

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<v Speaker 2>which the g Man describes his for because Marulus is

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<v Speaker 2>his former law partner and his best friend. Quote a tall,

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<v Speaker 2>powerfully built man with a Clark Kent face. And glasses

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<v Speaker 2>under thinning sandy hair. Peter Marulis will correct anyone who

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<v Speaker 2>refers to his ethnic extraction as Greek by advising sternly

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<v Speaker 2>that he has a Spartan. He was my best friend.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't sure we were going to get a Sparta

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<v Speaker 2>reference in here, but there we go, there we go,

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<v Speaker 2>We got it. We did it everyone.

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<v Speaker 3>It's good to know. And this five goes back literally

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<v Speaker 3>as to Herodotus, people who call themselves a Spartan are

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<v Speaker 3>the fucking worst.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, anyone who because like they weren't good at

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<v Speaker 2>like their period of time, as like it like objectively

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<v Speaker 2>dominant in the Greek peninsula was like roughly the period

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<v Speaker 2>of time Martin Scorsese has been making movies right like

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's not like that long a span of time.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think Scorsese is more impressive as like a

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<v Speaker 2>force in culture. But Marulus is not a Spartan. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>he is from Poughkeepsie, which is the opposite of Sparta.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, probably in a good way. But whatever, when

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<v Speaker 2>he first went away, when Liddy first goes away gets

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<v Speaker 2>locked up, he's sent in a local jail kind of

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<v Speaker 2>as his case is winding its way to completion. He

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<v Speaker 2>gets a period where he's like he's convict did but

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<v Speaker 2>he's not like permanently sentenced in everything here, everyone, Robert here,

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<v Speaker 2>I actually got this wrong. I double checked, and Sparta's

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<v Speaker 2>period of military dominance in Greece was something like a

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<v Speaker 2>little over thirty years, whereas Carsese's been directing for like

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<v Speaker 2>fifty something years. It would have been better if I

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<v Speaker 2>had compared the length of time that Sparta was the

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<v Speaker 2>dominant military power in Greece to like the run of

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<v Speaker 2>the Simpsons at present, although they'll eat it soon. And

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<v Speaker 2>he describes himself during this early period of incarceration as

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<v Speaker 2>totally at peace because while he had abandoned his family

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<v Speaker 2>and left his wife defend for their five children completely alone,

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<v Speaker 2>it was all in service of a greater cause, and

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<v Speaker 2>that greater cause was Richard Nixon. Now, Lyddy was not

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<v Speaker 2>unaware of the fact this is an unfair thing to

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<v Speaker 2>do to your wife, right to abandon her for half

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<v Speaker 2>a decade in order to protect Dick Nixon, the man

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<v Speaker 2>least deserving of loyalty of anyone who has ever lived.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, at one point he seems to have been

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<v Speaker 2>somewhat aware dimly at least that this was not a

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<v Speaker 2>morally clean thing for him to be doing. And so

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<v Speaker 2>at one point this is one of the things that's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting about it. But at one point he sits down

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<v Speaker 2>with her on a visitation day and is like, look,

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<v Speaker 2>I know this is not what you signed up for.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not fair. If you want to leave me,

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<v Speaker 2>get a divorce, find someone new, you know, that's totally

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<v Speaker 2>fine with me. I'll sign the papers, I'll do whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>And fran opts to stick by him, which is I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>at least proof that even the sickest weirdhouse on this

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<v Speaker 2>planet can find true love. I don't know what you

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<v Speaker 2>want to like interpret from that. I don't find it optimistic,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is a thing way. It's pretty sweet, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's true. It's a deeply sweet thing to do. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>I hate that this incredible gesture of love is on

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<v Speaker 2>behalf of Richard Nixon, at least partly, so like, that's

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<v Speaker 2>not great, but it is what it is. It is so.

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<v Speaker 2>Gordon does not describe his experience in prison as bad.

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<v Speaker 2>He does, however, describe it like a white guy raised

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<v Speaker 2>on Clint Eastwood movies from the seventies. Right, this is like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know the degree to which I know that

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<v Speaker 2>he's not telling the full truth. I suspect he is

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<v Speaker 2>censoring his true feelings about his time behind bars significantly

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<v Speaker 2>and consciously aping movies from the nineteen seventies in this

0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.240
<v Speaker 2>book that he writes because he knows that that'll sell

0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.360
<v Speaker 2>with conservatives. Right, there's a lot of dirty Harry in

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<v Speaker 2>a number of chunks of this book. Here's one line

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<v Speaker 2>where he talks about his early days in jail. In here,

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.960
<v Speaker 2>people wore all neighbors and it was like old Home Week.

0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.560
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't understand most of what was being said. It

0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.080
<v Speaker 2>was all in black dialect, and I didn't speak it.

0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:49.320
<v Speaker 2>I have sense of necessity become fluent. I don't think

0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that's the case because he writes, and I'm not going

0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.400
<v Speaker 2>to I'm not going to read him writing what he

0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.679
<v Speaker 2>calls black dialect. But he does attempt to at several times,

0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.800
<v Speaker 2>and I do not him credible.

0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.839
<v Speaker 3>I'll say that, yeah, this is surreal. I speak jive.

0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.400
<v Speaker 3>It is come up before Airplane.

0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.640
<v Speaker 2>I actually don't know that. I'm not exactly shore when

0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.760
<v Speaker 2>that movie came out. It's pretty embarrassing to read. Again,

0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm not gonna like go too much into it because

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of how embarrassing it is. But you should know that

0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.000
<v Speaker 2>this is not just not just the thing he does once,

0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.280
<v Speaker 2>but a thing that is like repeatedly a part of

0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.720
<v Speaker 2>this chunk of his narrative. So, because Lyddy and McCord

0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 2>and Hunt all got caught and charged so far ahead

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.120
<v Speaker 2>of the bulk of the Watergate scandal breaking out, there's

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.080
<v Speaker 2>this long lag time. And this is one of the

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.840
<v Speaker 2>things that the two different TV shows we've talked about

0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.160
<v Speaker 2>really fuck up. I mean, I don't think they fuck

0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:41.839
<v Speaker 2>it up. I think it's a narrative choice they make,

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.559
<v Speaker 2>but they really mess with the timeline for the purposes

0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of making it seem like guys like John Dean and

0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Erlikman and whatnot getting in trouble times up with the

0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.800
<v Speaker 2>break in, and with guys like Hunt and Liddy getting

0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.079
<v Speaker 2>in trouble much better than it does. In reality. The

0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.440
<v Speaker 2>shit with Hunt and LIDDI happens well ahead of the

0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>rest of the scandal breaking and so these guys are

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.760
<v Speaker 2>all kind of in jail while the Nixon administration is

0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.840
<v Speaker 2>falling apart. Lyddy is determined to prevent this, to prevent

0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Nixon from getting forced out of office again. The whole

0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.920
<v Speaker 2>thing that was kind of like keeping him together was

0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.400
<v Speaker 2>the idea that by sacrificing himself and his family, he

0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.160
<v Speaker 2>could keep Nixon in office, that like the chain of

0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 2>custody would stop with him, and that Nixon wouldn't get

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:29.120
<v Speaker 2>in trouble if he went away. And he kind of

0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.600
<v Speaker 2>comes to the conclusion that if McCord or Hunt in

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.720
<v Speaker 2>particular break, that's such a danger to the administration that

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 2>he would have to murder them, you know. So he

0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.520
<v Speaker 2>claims that, you know, he says that he makes because

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 2>he claims he's very popular with some of these other

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.560
<v Speaker 2>prison guys, and he claims that one of these dudes,

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 2>and he always tells you that these are black men,

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 2>tells him that the price of a murder is two

0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 2>cartons of cigarettes. He works out like a plan basically

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>where he'll assaulted guard to get sent to solitary for

0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 2>a few days, and then this friend of his, who's

0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.600
<v Speaker 2>totally his buddy, will murder whichever one of his co

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.080
<v Speaker 2>conspirators that he needed dead. Knowing Lyddy, knowing his general

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.080
<v Speaker 2>level of competence, I wouldn't be surprised if he got

0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 2>a dude to say, yeah, man, give me cigarettes and

0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.560
<v Speaker 2>I'll totally murder a dude with you. Send yourself to solitary,

0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 2>and I'll make it happen, right, Like, I would not

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 2>be surprised if someone scammed him as a spoiler. He

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.640
<v Speaker 2>never comes close to hurting anyone in prison that we

0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.760
<v Speaker 2>can prove in any way, shape or form. I think

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of this is just bluster, and this dude,

0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:35.080
<v Speaker 2>having watched a lot of prison movies.

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.280
<v Speaker 3>Really look, I just back of the enveloping a little

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 3>bit of even with inflation, how the fuck you gotta

0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 3>try to get away with two cartons of cigarettes? Is

0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:47.920
<v Speaker 3>the price? Like, get the fuck out of here.

0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.720
<v Speaker 2>I think the idea is that, like, well, if you're

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:52.800
<v Speaker 2>if you're a lifer or whatever, it doesn't really matter

0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 2>either way, whether the cigarettes or whatever. But like, I

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.360
<v Speaker 2>think they're gonna take your cigarettes, right, Like, if you

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.520
<v Speaker 2>murder a guy, they're gonna throw you in side. I

0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.800
<v Speaker 2>don't know, it doesn't seem that that, especially since we're

0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.360
<v Speaker 2>talking about like very high profile prisoners. Yeah, it's one

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 2>thing if it's like, yeah, if you murder this other

0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 2>dude who's a lifer and who nobody on the outside

0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.120
<v Speaker 2>cares about and you can probably get away with it

0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.320
<v Speaker 2>because the prison authorities aren't going to investigate if you

0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 2>murder e. Howard Hunt, Like yeah, they're not just gonna

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.640
<v Speaker 2>pretend that didn't happen, you know.

0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.120
<v Speaker 3>But also people know what kind of money you have

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 3>access to and what you're trying to do. You don't

0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 3>think the price is going to be one hundred K

0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.240
<v Speaker 3>to my family on the outside.

0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.200
<v Speaker 2>You don't think anyone's going to like foya to see, like, hey,

0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.400
<v Speaker 2>this guy got murdered right after g Gordon Lyddy gets

0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>put in solitary. Did he buy anything for another prisoner

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:48.800
<v Speaker 2>right before?

0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 3>Like?

0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Is that documented? Like every journalist in the country would

0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.640
<v Speaker 2>have poured over this anyway, whatever, But again Lyddy never

0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.640
<v Speaker 2>does anything. Gordon claims that during the of his time

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.000
<v Speaker 2>in prison, he is because he's a white man in

0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.640
<v Speaker 2>a jail, the subject of numerous racial epithets. During the

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.400
<v Speaker 2>start of his time behind bars, he says his new

0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.320
<v Speaker 2>neighbors were particularly angry because, and this is his fault,

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.200
<v Speaker 2>he would walk naked to and from the shower, which

0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 2>he thought was fine because of his experiences in high

0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 2>school gym. But like it's apparently rude in a prison

0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.800
<v Speaker 2>now again. Prison mores change regularly and differ from region

0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.000
<v Speaker 2>to region. But this seems like a pretty easy thing

0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 2>to know. If it's like getting a bad reaction to people,

0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.600
<v Speaker 2>just don't walk naked around it. Put a towel on,

0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.480
<v Speaker 2>man like, it's not that art anyway. His decision is

0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.560
<v Speaker 2>not to just put a towel on. He says that

0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 2>after a week or so being basically being called honky,

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.240
<v Speaker 2>he decides to fight back. And I'm going to give

0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.680
<v Speaker 2>you one guess as to how he decides to fight

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 2>back against anti white racism. What he describes is.

0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:53.200
<v Speaker 4>That did he light himself on fire?

0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:53.760
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that was the other likely No Ian, No, it's Nazi,

0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.240
<v Speaker 2>it's Nazi stuff. He does a Nazi again.

0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.480
<v Speaker 3>He's got one play, and he loves the play.

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.439
<v Speaker 2>He's right, he's got two he has bringing up the

0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 2>SS and lighting himself on fire, Like those aren't the

0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.240
<v Speaker 2>only two plays he ever developed.

0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 3>Well at that point that was also the kiing Nazi move.

0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, let yourself Yeah yeah, that's what Hitler did

0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.160
<v Speaker 2>to the whole country. Yeah, so quote I seethed then

0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.240
<v Speaker 2>an idea he seethed after getting you know, yelled at yeah.

0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Then an idea hit me. They wanted race, I'd give

0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.480
<v Speaker 2>them race. My mind reached back thirty five years deep

0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.280
<v Speaker 2>into my childhood. In my head, the shortwave of my

0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.320
<v Speaker 2>mother's old Emerson snapped on. The music started and I

0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.240
<v Speaker 2>started to sing, sing as I hadn't in years. I

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.639
<v Speaker 2>roared out into the chaos about me, the anthem of

0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.439
<v Speaker 2>the nation whose psychotic obsession with race sent millions of

0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 2>those believed inferior to their graves. And then he starts

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 2>singing the horse wessel Ride.

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.880
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, by the time, even as far as

0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.680
<v Speaker 3>Nazi shit you could do in prison, that is impressively.

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.080
<v Speaker 2>And He's like, there was something so powerful about the

0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.840
<v Speaker 2>music that they all stopped yelling at me as soon

0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.639
<v Speaker 2>as they heard it, even though they didn't speak German.

0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.360
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, no, they look, I'm gonna yeah, of course,

0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna guess most people in the DC jail did

0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:16.240
<v Speaker 2>not speak German, but like they knew this was Nazi shit.

0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.320
<v Speaker 2>It's not that hard when a guy starts singing a

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Marshall Germans song, you get what's going on?

0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:25.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah in a jail.

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like so this is where I Yeah, it's it's

0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.520
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty fun. So after some time in the DC jail,

0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.639
<v Speaker 2>he gets sent to a larger facility, dan Berry, and

0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.440
<v Speaker 2>he's he's still kept out. He's in a bigger facility now,

0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.600
<v Speaker 2>but he's kept out of the general population because he

0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.879
<v Speaker 2>still hasn't been sentenced. He claims that during this time

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 2>he met another Nazi, the son of the s SH

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Gestapo commander of Brussels, who became his chess partner. He's like, yeah,

0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I met the son of this SS Gestapo commander in Brussels,

0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.840
<v Speaker 2>and we started becoming like, you know, chess buddies.

0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:00.359
<v Speaker 3>Quote.

0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we get on famously. He knows more songs than

0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>I do. And shower time sounds like the invasion of Poland.

0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.960
<v Speaker 2>My god, that's the sins you should not ever write now.

0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:16.160
<v Speaker 3>These two naked Nazis belting out fucking Wagner there.

0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, first off, comparing your shower time to the invasion

0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.560
<v Speaker 2>of Poland. Let me remind you all three million Jewish

0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.879
<v Speaker 2>Poles are murdered during the Nazi occupation, along with at

0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 2>least one point eight million non Jewish Polish citizens. That's

0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.280
<v Speaker 2>a little bit political, right, Like the Polish state will

0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.600
<v Speaker 2>say it's about three million Polish citizens. Honestly, that doesn't

0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 2>really sound impossible to me, Like a lot so many

0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:42.240
<v Speaker 2>Polish people die as a result of the occupation. More importantly, though,

0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.280
<v Speaker 2>we can actually drill into the accuracy of this Claims

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 2>claimed that he was buddies with the son of the

0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.200
<v Speaker 2>s S Gestapo commander in Brussels, because that's a job.

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.840
<v Speaker 2>We know who did that gig right, The head of

0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.560
<v Speaker 2>this Gestapo in Belgium was a dude named Constantine Kanaris.

0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Now you may have heard of a guy named Admiral

0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.479
<v Speaker 2>Wilhelm Canaris. Canaris was a Nazi who was one of

0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 2>the guys that was kind of part of the plot

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:12.160
<v Speaker 2>against Hitler. That's in that Tom Cruise movie. He gets

0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 2>a little rehabilitated for this. That should not be the case.

0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Wilhelm Canaris is like not one of the worst Nazis,

0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.480
<v Speaker 2>but was definitely definitely a Nazi. He worked very closely

0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.919
<v Speaker 2>with Ryan hart Heidrich, architect of the Holocaust. He's one

0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:28.720
<v Speaker 2>of these dudes who doesn't like Hitler at the end

0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.240
<v Speaker 2>because he thinks Hitler's losing the war, and he gets executed,

0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.360
<v Speaker 2>by the way should have been executed and was fucking executed.

0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.520
<v Speaker 2>His nephew is a Constantine Canaris, who is the head

0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of the Gestapo in Brussels during when Brussels is occupied

0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.919
<v Speaker 2>by the Nazis. Constantine is also a fucking war criminal.

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 2>He gets sentenced to twenty years hard labor for a

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.040
<v Speaker 2>number of things. He's responsible for the execution of a

0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>number of political prisoners. He's also he plays a significant

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.520
<v Speaker 2>role in the roundup and deportation of Belgian Jews. He

0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.240
<v Speaker 2>is one of the guys who helps do the Holocaust,

0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 2>right Constantine Canaris. Obviously, he's the gestapohead in Belgium. He's

0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.720
<v Speaker 2>not a good person. Constantine serves half of his sentence

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.880
<v Speaker 2>and then dies in nineteen eighty three, which is three

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.879
<v Speaker 2>years after Liddy's book was published. I have a little

0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:16.280
<v Speaker 2>trouble nailing this down entirely, but his German Wikipedia entry

0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.320
<v Speaker 2>says that he has multiple sons, but it only names

0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.720
<v Speaker 2>two of them, and of the sons that I know

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.560
<v Speaker 2>he had, neither of them ever spent any time in

0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.239
<v Speaker 2>a US prison. Klaus Wilhelm was a legal scholar and

0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.399
<v Speaker 2>a professor who spent his entire life living and working

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.720
<v Speaker 2>in Germany. Volker Canaris became a director and produced a

0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.320
<v Speaker 2>famous movie about the Commandant of Auschwitz. He also spent

0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:43.000
<v Speaker 2>his life in Germany. I can find absolutely no evidence

0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.760
<v Speaker 2>that Constantine Canaris had a son who went to the

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.000
<v Speaker 2>United States and was put in a DC area jail

0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.400
<v Speaker 2>or prison. No evidence whatsoever that this happened. I believe,

0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.480
<v Speaker 2>based on what I can confirm, that G. Gordon Liddy

0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.439
<v Speaker 2>is lying about this, or that's some random deald like

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:02.240
<v Speaker 2>about being this guy's son.

0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:06.520
<v Speaker 3>You know, Yeah, it feels like at this point it's

0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:11.160
<v Speaker 3>you know, hey, the guy that was singing fucking Nazi

0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.000
<v Speaker 3>songs in the other prison before I got transferred over.

0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.360
<v Speaker 3>I'll just tell of as a regular as American Nazi

0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:19.680
<v Speaker 3>that I'm a special match.

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that I'm Constantine Kenaris's son. Anyway, Yeah, again, he's

0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.520
<v Speaker 2>lying here or I think that, like, there's a pretty

0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.160
<v Speaker 2>good chance that Liddy is lying, because he does lie

0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.359
<v Speaker 2>regularly in his memoir, and I hope that keeps in

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.640
<v Speaker 2>your head as we investigate the wackier claims he makes

0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.400
<v Speaker 2>on his journey. Anyway, moving on, Liddy says that due

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.160
<v Speaker 2>to his familiarity with FBI studies on interrogation, he knew

0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:46.040
<v Speaker 2>that the ideal time to interrogate and break a person

0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:48.399
<v Speaker 2>who has been locked up is after six weeks. That

0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.320
<v Speaker 2>the FBI likes to leave people in custody for about

0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.320
<v Speaker 2>six weeks because there's this kind of initial period you

0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.280
<v Speaker 2>get when you move into incarceration where you get like

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 2>extra resilient and like tough and like I can take this,

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna and that After about six weeks, the kind

0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:08.080
<v Speaker 2>of natural boost you get from that wears down and

0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>you're at the lowest point in your psychological defenses. So

0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:13.719
<v Speaker 2>he figured that they were going to wait until he'd

0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:14.919
<v Speaker 2>been in there a couple of months, and then they

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:16.520
<v Speaker 2>were going to try to break him right and get

0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.960
<v Speaker 2>him to talk, because that's when he would be at

0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 2>his most vulnerable. So he decides that he has to

0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:24.119
<v Speaker 2>build up his willpower to fight back, and the first

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.600
<v Speaker 2>move he takes to do this is to become honestly,

0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:30.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, I hope you know. If you've got an

0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:32.200
<v Speaker 2>eating disorder, we're going to talk about that a bit here.

0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.320
<v Speaker 2>He decides to cut his food intake to six hundred

0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:38.600
<v Speaker 2>calories a day and starve himself while doubling his daily

0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:42.679
<v Speaker 2>exercise routine, and like he describes this as a mental

0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.479
<v Speaker 2>exercise to increase his willpower. As someone who has had

0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 2>an eating disorder, this all reads to me like a

0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:52.399
<v Speaker 2>guy describing his descent into anirexig mania in order to

0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.439
<v Speaker 2>have more control over his situation after being locked up

0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.800
<v Speaker 2>like that. That is how this reads to me. And

0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:01.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm going I'm gonna read you a segment from that quote.

0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.119
<v Speaker 2>My mood remained steady. I was getting along with all

0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:06.480
<v Speaker 2>the other prisoners. Things were going very well, too well.

0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:08.879
<v Speaker 2>I decided I needed more stress to bring my will

0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:11.840
<v Speaker 2>to maximum power. I turned to my old reliable method

0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.560
<v Speaker 2>of ordeal by fire. This test would have to exceed

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.600
<v Speaker 2>all others in destruction of tissue and time of severe pain.

0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.280
<v Speaker 2>I selected a particularly strong willed black bank robber and

0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.080
<v Speaker 2>named texts with whom to engage in a battle of wills.

0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Ready with a box of wooden matches, I got him

0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:28.159
<v Speaker 2>into a discussion of the subject and pressed him to

0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:31.160
<v Speaker 2>the point where he expressed disbelief and challenged me. Because

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:33.159
<v Speaker 2>I had been warned never again to indulge in that

0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:35.840
<v Speaker 2>practice near or on finger joints, and my palm was

0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.719
<v Speaker 2>already burned out Jesus Christ Gordon, I had to go

0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:43.040
<v Speaker 2>back to where I started years before. My forearm. The

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.680
<v Speaker 2>scars there were light strike a match, I said to text,

0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:48.919
<v Speaker 2>and locked my eyes onto his. He struck it and

0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.080
<v Speaker 2>held it out, not knowing what to do next. I

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.720
<v Speaker 2>put the unburned outside of my left forearm directly over

0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:55.879
<v Speaker 2>the flame. As the fire burned through my flesh and

0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.840
<v Speaker 2>melted it back into a black and depression. A look

0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:01.000
<v Speaker 2>of horror came over Tex, but he stayed with it.

0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:03.480
<v Speaker 2>The match burned down and scorched his fingers before he

0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:05.399
<v Speaker 2>dropped it. I grinned his him as he looked at

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:09.160
<v Speaker 2>the burn unbelievingly, then looked ill, got up and left.

0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:13.560
<v Speaker 3>So I know this is somewhat you're excerpting of this book,

0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:15.800
<v Speaker 3>but it is a little telling that I feel like,

0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 3>over about four some hours now, the only moments of

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:23.000
<v Speaker 3>human intimacy he seems to have is while he's burning himself.

0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, he's laying himself on fire.

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:27.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, it's really shocking.

0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:30.240
<v Speaker 2>This is both the kind of and well, I'm going

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:35.840
<v Speaker 2>to starve myself to damage my body by by starving myself,

0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:40.080
<v Speaker 2>and I am going to engage in these kind of

0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 2>self like this is the same as cutting I think yeah,

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a lot of that going on here.

0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:48.560
<v Speaker 2>He has to frame it as this, like this is

0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:49.480
<v Speaker 2>wheel power.

0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.320
<v Speaker 3>I mean, or you know, it's like in as clearly

0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:58.440
<v Speaker 3>this is a very like you know, this autobiography is unedited. Essentially,

0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:00.000
<v Speaker 3>this is clearly what he's telling.

0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.040
<v Speaker 2>This is what he has to believe about it, right,

0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>But like this is also something he pretty consistently goes

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:12.119
<v Speaker 2>back to in times of like stress and anxiety. Speaking

0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:17.879
<v Speaker 2>of self harm, you know what, and human intimacy and

0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:21.720
<v Speaker 2>human intimacy you know what's fundamentally well, I don't know.

0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Self harm is much more complicated than that. But what's

0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:39.200
<v Speaker 2>not complicated is these ads, Oh we're back, We're back,

0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:42.720
<v Speaker 2>and we're talking about g Gordon Liddy, who you know.

0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:45.240
<v Speaker 2>I will say this, I bet one of the things

0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:47.560
<v Speaker 2>that will stop people from fucking with you in jail

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:50.439
<v Speaker 2>is lighting yourself on fire while staring at them. That

0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:52.600
<v Speaker 2>does seem like an effective way to make someone be

0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:54.160
<v Speaker 2>like this guy's not worth it.

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:58.080
<v Speaker 3>Like that's that is The weird thing is it's like

0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:01.679
<v Speaker 3>like he has he has this desire to cultivate this

0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:05.360
<v Speaker 3>like I survived prison, tough guy shit and the shit

0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:08.080
<v Speaker 3>that he's actually doing. He just like it's it's so

0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:11.399
<v Speaker 3>weird what he chooses to frame in which way, because

0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 3>I just feel like this was how I chose to.

0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:16.439
<v Speaker 2>If he had really like, yeah, yeah, I wanted to

0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:20.000
<v Speaker 2>scare people, so I lit my I it permanently damaged

0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:23.760
<v Speaker 2>my skin without breaking eye contact. Because I thought the end,

0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:26.080
<v Speaker 2>like I would believe that I would be like, yeah, man,

0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:28.480
<v Speaker 2>does sound like something does sound like people would probably

0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:33.520
<v Speaker 2>give you a a little bit of space. Lyddy also

0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.280
<v Speaker 2>tells several stories of fights that he got in and

0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't really believe. Yeah, I will say I believe

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 2>he got in some fights because most people who spend

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 2>years in prison wind up having an altercation or to

0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:50.199
<v Speaker 2>a very least right, Yeah, these are never particularly glorious stories.

0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 2>He tries to punch them up, like there's one where

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:53.959
<v Speaker 2>somebody steals something and so we used to go and

0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:55.960
<v Speaker 2>like fight that guy is that other people weren't messed

0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:58.840
<v Speaker 2>with him, and he describes it as like a fair fight.

0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>But he gets cut up hard prob Because this dude

0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:04.080
<v Speaker 2>has a fighting ring, which is a cheap ring with

0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:06.480
<v Speaker 2>the stone remove that will cut an opponent if you

0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:09.320
<v Speaker 2>punch them with it, and so he goes into loving

0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:11.480
<v Speaker 2>detail about how he like talks his way into buying

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:14.680
<v Speaker 2>a fighting ring. He spends like a meaningful amount of

0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>time telling us about how he gets this fighting ring

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:20.720
<v Speaker 2>for himself, but he never uses it. Like he talks

0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:23.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot about all the weapons he acquires in prison,

0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:25.719
<v Speaker 2>and he doesn't he doesn't ever do anything with him.

0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:26.760
<v Speaker 3>He just needs tok in.

0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:29.680
<v Speaker 2>He needs you to know he has him knife catalog guy,

0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:35.400
<v Speaker 2>knife cat very very strong knife catalog guy energy. Yeah,

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:37.919
<v Speaker 2>this dude has a knife shaped like an eagle with

0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:43.680
<v Speaker 2>an American flag. Absolutely yeah. So while his skill at

0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:47.080
<v Speaker 2>letting himself be severely burned for no reason convinced Liddy

0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:50.320
<v Speaker 2>that his will was inviolate, E Howard Hunt is not

0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:54.200
<v Speaker 2>doing so well right. Hunt is notably less satisfied spending

0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:57.200
<v Speaker 2>the rest of his life behind bars. He's got several kids.

0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:00.200
<v Speaker 2>And you know Hunt, you'll know this, at least if

0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:02.840
<v Speaker 2>you watch the White House Plumber show. His wife dies

0:29:02.840 --> 0:29:06.000
<v Speaker 2>in a mysterious plane crash, like while she's taking money

0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:08.720
<v Speaker 2>in between a member of these Watergate convicted guys. It's

0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:09.440
<v Speaker 2>very shady.

0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:10.040
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Hunt kind of made some statements about having knowledge of

0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>the JFK thing. It's all a messy story. Hunt's also

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:18.000
<v Speaker 2>a famous liar and fabulous, so I don't know how

0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:19.920
<v Speaker 2>much you want to read into that, but he is

0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:22.800
<v Speaker 2>in a bad position here, right, and he starts to

0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:26.280
<v Speaker 2>unravel pretty soon after they all go behind bars. Now,

0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Gordon becomes convinced that Hunt's betrayal would destroy his beloved Nixon,

0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:34.120
<v Speaker 2>so he starts preparing to carry out an assassination against

0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 2>his old friend. Because Liddy is starving and deranged by

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 2>this point, she starts looking for hidden messages in his

0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:44.920
<v Speaker 2>limited communications with the Nixon people and mostly in newspaper articles.

0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:47.600
<v Speaker 2>He's sure that the Nixon campaign is going to send

0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:50.520
<v Speaker 2>him a message to kill e Howard Hunt via like

0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:54.560
<v Speaker 2>statements made to the papers and shit. Yeah, So he

0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:57.880
<v Speaker 2>sits down with his friend, this gangland figure who told

0:29:57.960 --> 0:29:59.680
<v Speaker 2>him that you can kill a guy with the price

0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:02.840
<v Speaker 2>of two cartons of cigarettes. He tells the dude, Nixon

0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 2>hasn't told me through like the fucking Washington Post to

0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.760
<v Speaker 2>murder E Howard Hunt yet, but it's surely coming.

0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:11.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, let's get it on the schedule.

0:30:11.880 --> 0:30:15.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's get it on the schedule. Quote that precaution

0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:17.720
<v Speaker 2>out of the way. We decided quickly upon the method.

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 2>Hunt received special meals because of his history of ulcers.

0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:22.960
<v Speaker 2>In the parlance of the DC jail, it was a

0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:25.280
<v Speaker 2>diet tray. It was served to him in his cell

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 2>rather than in the CB four mess hall on the

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:29.240
<v Speaker 2>first floor. Should I have ordered to kill Hunt, he

0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:31.800
<v Speaker 2>would be served a special meal. Indeed, it would contain

0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a legal poison. It's like nicotine, right, they're gonna like

0:30:36.560 --> 0:30:38.560
<v Speaker 2>because you can if you have cigarettes, you could like

0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:43.080
<v Speaker 2>basically concentrate the nicotine oil and pure nicotine. It's pretty

0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 2>easy to kill someone with. That's his plan. Again, I

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:48.520
<v Speaker 2>don't actually know that he knew anybody who had the

0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:52.160
<v Speaker 2>capacity to do that. Yeah, this is more bluster for

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:55.320
<v Speaker 2>the book. The reality is that Hunt told Liddy, like

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:57.520
<v Speaker 2>what actually happens. He talks a lot about how ready

0:30:57.520 --> 0:30:59.280
<v Speaker 2>he was to kill this guy, all the plans he had.

0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:01.760
<v Speaker 2>What really happen spens his Hunt tells Liddy, hey, man,

0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:05.200
<v Speaker 2>fuck Nixon, I'm gonna rat. You know, I'm gonna rat

0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 2>for a better deal, And Lyddy pouts and refuses to

0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 2>ever talk to him again. But he doesn't do anything else.

0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Nothing happens again, all hat no fucking cattle is the

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>way to summarize this guy's whole life. The most important

0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:21.480
<v Speaker 2>thing to know about Liddy's time behind bars is that

0:31:21.520 --> 0:31:24.880
<v Speaker 2>it served as a surrogate combat experience for him. That's

0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:27.000
<v Speaker 2>why he's so dedicated to this. Right, he never gets

0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:28.959
<v Speaker 2>to go to Korea, he never gets to fight anybody,

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.479
<v Speaker 2>he never gets to kill anybody, but he has this

0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:34.680
<v Speaker 2>public chance where all he has to do is sit

0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:38.480
<v Speaker 2>and be quiet, and he will build the reputation he's

0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:42.040
<v Speaker 2>always wanted as a hard, dangerous tough man.

0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:42.400
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:46.000
<v Speaker 2>It's really, it's quite easy. His wife has to go

0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.200
<v Speaker 2>through hell, right, his kids have to go through hell.

0:31:48.640 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>All he has to do is sit quietly in a

0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 2>room for several years, and then he gets this thing

0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:57.240
<v Speaker 2>that means more than anything to him, proof that he's

0:31:57.320 --> 0:32:00.640
<v Speaker 2>a hero. Right, That's all he has to do. Is really,

0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:02.920
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of ways, the fact that he gets

0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:05.040
<v Speaker 2>caught and charged for Watergate is the best thing that

0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:09.640
<v Speaker 2>ever happens to him. Right, Yeah, Like somebody wants.

0:32:09.480 --> 0:32:14.000
<v Speaker 3>A psychological twist in that, Like, yeah, this is definitely

0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 3>the best shit that's ever happened to him.

0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:18.880
<v Speaker 2>There's this, there's this, do you guys ever you guys

0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:20.040
<v Speaker 2>ever listen to the band DAWs.

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:22.720
<v Speaker 4>Nope, not familiar.

0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a I don't know, kind of a folk,

0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:31.240
<v Speaker 2>bluegrassy outfit. They got a song called When My Time

0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Comes that I think there's a line in it that

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:38.200
<v Speaker 2>really well sums up kind of the young male attitude

0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:42.360
<v Speaker 2>about bravery, the attitude about like courage and heroism that

0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:46.280
<v Speaker 2>you have as a kid, as a dumb kid, that

0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:48.959
<v Speaker 2>I think leads a lot of people to like, you know,

0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:51.960
<v Speaker 2>joining the military and stuff like that. It inspires a

0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:55.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of Actually some of our worst behavior, there were

0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:57.400
<v Speaker 2>moments of dreams I was offered to save. I lived

0:32:57.480 --> 0:32:59.720
<v Speaker 2>less like a workhorse more like a slave. I thought

0:32:59.760 --> 0:33:02.280
<v Speaker 2>that one quick moment that was noble or brave would

0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>be worth the most of my life. This thing that like,

0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:06.720
<v Speaker 2>and what's going on what they're talking about here is

0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.560
<v Speaker 2>this like this realization you get in as an adult

0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 2>how complicated and difficult and messy and gray the world is,

0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 2>and how nice it is to feel like you can

0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 2>do just one thing. Yeah, if it's the right thing

0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:22.040
<v Speaker 2>at the right time, and then you've you've succeeded it

0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:24.880
<v Speaker 2>being a person, right, like, even if you die doing it.

0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>At least you don't have to think anymore. Like, and

0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:31.480
<v Speaker 2>the reality is that like doing good is hard and complicated,

0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:34.120
<v Speaker 2>and like what his wife does, what Liddy's wife does

0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:37.880
<v Speaker 2>is by every measure, much more impressive, right yeah, Like

0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:41.480
<v Speaker 2>it's it's not fancy, it doesn't get you a career

0:33:41.480 --> 0:33:44.640
<v Speaker 2>as a media influencer, but like committing to care for

0:33:44.760 --> 0:33:47.680
<v Speaker 2>children for four and a half years alone, five kids

0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 2>is so much more braver than sitting in a cell alone.

0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:55.800
<v Speaker 3>Right well, I think it's like the like thenita shortcut

0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:59.960
<v Speaker 3>silver bullet, like shoot the moon, of having a worthwhile life,

0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.560
<v Speaker 3>Like these fucking clouds are not even clouds. Lots of

0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:06.480
<v Speaker 3>people feel despair, and it's just like, well, this thing

0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:11.000
<v Speaker 3>will make me a person, This will do it. Just

0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:14.160
<v Speaker 3>get the lottery, Just get the right meaning of life

0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:14.960
<v Speaker 3>lottery ticket.

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:18.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, that's it. And he's gotten his lottery ticket,

0:34:18.440 --> 0:34:21.040
<v Speaker 2>So that's I do believe to an extent that he's

0:34:21.400 --> 0:34:24.000
<v Speaker 2>he's got morale behind him in this because he's he's

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:28.200
<v Speaker 2>getting everything he wants from it. So I do suspect

0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:31.720
<v Speaker 2>that eventually, though, like like with anyone, like just being

0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 2>locked up, being behind bars, being this situation, he does

0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.120
<v Speaker 2>start to grow deranged. And some of this is probably

0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:40.160
<v Speaker 2>because he's starving himself, which is not great for your

0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:43.160
<v Speaker 2>mental health. And Lily doesn't have the self awareness to

0:34:43.200 --> 0:34:46.040
<v Speaker 2>recognize this, but you see pieces of it in stories

0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:48.480
<v Speaker 2>he tells. Probably the best one that best embodies this

0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:50.160
<v Speaker 2>is he he tells one story of a time when

0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:52.640
<v Speaker 2>he's out, he's jogging in the yard. They've got wreck time,

0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:55.680
<v Speaker 2>so they're kind of outside. He's doing laps, and he

0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:59.080
<v Speaker 2>sees a dead rat on the ground right, this huge, nasty,

0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.319
<v Speaker 2>decompo dead rat, and he becomes instantly convinced that there's

0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:06.200
<v Speaker 2>another prisoner who's like kind of sitting nearby, and that

0:35:06.320 --> 0:35:09.120
<v Speaker 2>this guy picked up the rat from somewhere else and

0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:11.600
<v Speaker 2>put it down where Liddy would see it to fuck

0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:15.160
<v Speaker 2>with him, which is insane, Like, it is a prison,

0:35:15.360 --> 0:35:18.759
<v Speaker 2>there's rats, rats die, there's no reason for him to

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:22.600
<v Speaker 2>think that another prisoner stuck the rat there. And also

0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:24.880
<v Speaker 2>it's like, so he just placed the rat kind of

0:35:25.160 --> 0:35:28.239
<v Speaker 2>vaguely near a chunk of the running path that you

0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:31.440
<v Speaker 2>might pass, Like, yeah, that doesn't seem likely, g Gordon Liddy,

0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.600
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't really seem like a taunt, even what.

0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:38.480
<v Speaker 3>From like putting yourself in their shoes, Like, what the

0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:40.080
<v Speaker 3>fuck was the plan? Dog?

0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:43.480
<v Speaker 2>So he gets so angry at this that he he

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:47.120
<v Speaker 2>steps on the rotting rat to squish it and like

0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:51.920
<v Speaker 2>mash it up. And he picks up this like rancid, decomposing,

0:35:52.160 --> 0:35:55.239
<v Speaker 2>fetid carcass and he walks over to the guy with

0:35:55.320 --> 0:35:57.920
<v Speaker 2>it and he's like, here's a rat. And the guy's like,

0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:02.560
<v Speaker 2>what the fuck, I'm just trying to get some what

0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:05.319
<v Speaker 2>are you doing. And he's like, oh, the guard did it,

0:36:05.400 --> 0:36:07.399
<v Speaker 2>you're saying, And the guy is again like I don't

0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:08.520
<v Speaker 2>know what the fuck you're talking about.

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:08.759
<v Speaker 3>Man.

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Like it is again, even from Lyddy's pros, it's very

0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:16.320
<v Speaker 2>clear that everyone else is like, oh, this guy's fucking

0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:16.839
<v Speaker 2>lost it.

0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:23.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and telling this story after the fact is what

0:36:23.480 --> 0:36:23.759
<v Speaker 3>I mean.

0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's something you keep to yourself.

0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.600
<v Speaker 2>I think that is that's something you never tell anybody. Yeah,

0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:31.400
<v Speaker 2>maybe if you're like having an emotional conversation with your

0:36:31.400 --> 0:36:34.760
<v Speaker 2>loved ones afterwards, to tell them how bad it got. Anyway, whatever.

0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Lyddy is also peculiar in his time behind bars because

0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:44.240
<v Speaker 2>he is not just an unrepentant fascist, he's also a lawyer,

0:36:44.640 --> 0:36:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and he he does care to one extent about the

0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:51.520
<v Speaker 2>letter of the law, even though he's always even behind bars,

0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:55.279
<v Speaker 2>a strong supporter of mass incarceration. He's livid every time

0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:58.400
<v Speaker 2>his fellow inmates have their rights abused because he knows

0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:01.960
<v Speaker 2>what the jails and prisons are supposed to provide, and

0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:05.120
<v Speaker 2>he knows when they're falling short, and he can't stand

0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:08.120
<v Speaker 2>for it, and so he becomes a jail house lawyer

0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:11.600
<v Speaker 2>for everyone inside. And from everything I've read, he really

0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:13.960
<v Speaker 2>does quite a lot. He helps a number of these guys.

0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:16.520
<v Speaker 2>This is probably more than anything why he doesn't get

0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:19.359
<v Speaker 2>fucked with much, because like he really does provide a

0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:22.160
<v Speaker 2>service after a while to a lot of dudes. You know.

0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:24.080
<v Speaker 2>He helps them work through their cases. He gives them

0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:26.359
<v Speaker 2>advice on how to appear in court, he helps them

0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:28.879
<v Speaker 2>file motions and stuff to get things that they need.

0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:31.840
<v Speaker 2>He makes complaints, like on behalf of this, there's this

0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Jewish prisoner who's not getting kosher meals. He like gets

0:37:35.280 --> 0:37:38.400
<v Speaker 2>forces the prison to give this guy kosher meals. He

0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:41.640
<v Speaker 2>develops feuds with a couple of different prison officials. He's

0:37:41.640 --> 0:37:44.280
<v Speaker 2>in like eight different facilities, and I think his reasons

0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 2>are genuine. Some of these prisons, like people get killed

0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:50.760
<v Speaker 2>doing dangerous work, and he's angry about that the food

0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:54.160
<v Speaker 2>is not of sufficient qualities, stuff like faucets and shit

0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:57.799
<v Speaker 2>in prison facilities aren't being maintained. And he understands who

0:37:57.840 --> 0:37:59.959
<v Speaker 2>to send letters to, what kind of letters to send,

0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:03.360
<v Speaker 2>who to threaten in order to force the system to

0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:06.400
<v Speaker 2>take action. And I think he's actually quite good at this,

0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.239
<v Speaker 2>And it's evidence that, like again, had he been a

0:38:09.280 --> 0:38:12.439
<v Speaker 2>better person, a guy like Lyddy with these skills could

0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:14.280
<v Speaker 2>have helped a lot of people in his life.

0:38:14.480 --> 0:38:17.240
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's like so close, and it's so telling

0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:20.839
<v Speaker 3>that his own autobiography doesn't see what could be good

0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:23.839
<v Speaker 3>about him and what could be redeeming about him.

0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I think he's so weird. Yeah, he sees this as

0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:31.960
<v Speaker 2>good because it's bad for the system not to be consistent.

0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:35.800
<v Speaker 2>And he sees this as good because these people deserve anything.

0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>But you know, maybe I'm being too negative. Probably the

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:42.319
<v Speaker 2>height of this behavior is when Gordon and more than

0:38:42.360 --> 0:38:45.759
<v Speaker 2>five hundred fellow inmates, he basically helps forces like a

0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:49.359
<v Speaker 2>hunger strike at a facility he's at. He gets five

0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:52.600
<v Speaker 2>hundred fellow inmates to refuse to eat food for several days.

0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:56.319
<v Speaker 2>It's the longest of three strikes at that facility that year,

0:38:56.400 --> 0:39:00.400
<v Speaker 2>and Liddy's leadership seems to be why the prison officials

0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:02.480
<v Speaker 2>are so frustrated with him that he gets transferred to

0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:06.879
<v Speaker 2>a maximum security facility afterwards. This is like, when he's

0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:10.520
<v Speaker 2>at a minimum security place, he does spend a period

0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:13.880
<v Speaker 2>of his bid behind bars in California because you know,

0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:17.799
<v Speaker 2>you remember he broke into that psychiatrist's office, Daniels. So

0:39:17.960 --> 0:39:19.520
<v Speaker 2>at a point in time he gets like sent over

0:39:19.520 --> 0:39:21.200
<v Speaker 2>to California because you got to do some time there

0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:24.280
<v Speaker 2>because some of your crimes are over there. He claims

0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:27.560
<v Speaker 2>that by this point he was famous in the prison system,

0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:30.120
<v Speaker 2>and he gets gifted with treats by his new neighbors

0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:33.920
<v Speaker 2>when he arrives. I don't disbelieve that necessarily. Number one,

0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:36.600
<v Speaker 2>he's probably got a good reputation. He helps people. He's

0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:39.839
<v Speaker 2>also famous, so like yeah, you know, straight up, yeah,

0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:42.799
<v Speaker 2>just straight up, like fame gets you places, right, But

0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:46.040
<v Speaker 2>then he goes into what is definitely a lie. He

0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:48.840
<v Speaker 2>tells an elaborate story about how one of the fellow

0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:52.279
<v Speaker 2>inmates in California is a kung fu master who just

0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:55.719
<v Speaker 2>happened to be locked up to and this guy is

0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:58.319
<v Speaker 2>from like you know, this guy is from China. He's

0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.480
<v Speaker 2>like traveled to the US and mysterious circumstances. But then

0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:05.120
<v Speaker 2>he gets locked up and like we become friends, and

0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:08.480
<v Speaker 2>Lyddy writes one of the most embarrassing paragraphs I've ever

0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:11.680
<v Speaker 2>read in my life. We worked out at the weights

0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:14.080
<v Speaker 2>together and finally at his side, and it might be

0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:18.600
<v Speaker 2>mutually advantageous to exchange instruction. He hesitated, then took me

0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:21.239
<v Speaker 2>aside and told me that he had never imparted such

0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:25.759
<v Speaker 2>knowledge to an occidental and friendship, was not sure he

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 2>ever should. He paused and studied me quietly. Finally he spoke,

0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:33.120
<v Speaker 2>you are a very violent man. I can see it

0:40:33.160 --> 0:40:37.120
<v Speaker 2>in your eyes. I control it, Lyddy said, you must.

0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 2>If you ever use when I teach you to take

0:40:39.160 --> 0:40:41.759
<v Speaker 2>advantage of the week, I'll find you wherever you are

0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:47.040
<v Speaker 2>and kill you myself. Of all the things that have

0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:50.360
<v Speaker 2>never happened, this is the thing that's least happened in

0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:51.719
<v Speaker 2>the history of things that did.

0:40:51.800 --> 0:40:55.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, it is like a cut scene from

0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:57.279
<v Speaker 3>Mortal Combat.

0:40:58.200 --> 0:41:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Embarrassing. That is embarrassing. G Gordon Liddy under no way

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:08.040
<v Speaker 2>did any of this now, it's not impossible that he

0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:10.640
<v Speaker 2>just met a Chinese American man who got locked up

0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:12.560
<v Speaker 2>and was like, yeah, light of this guy, Like, yes,

0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:15.480
<v Speaker 2>am I going to do Prison's boring? Right? Who believe

0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:22.160
<v Speaker 2>anything I say? Not a zero percent chance. Also, I

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.000
<v Speaker 2>love the like you're a very violent man. No evidence

0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:27.840
<v Speaker 2>that g. Gordon Liddy successfully did violence on anyone in

0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:34.399
<v Speaker 2>his entire life, not one piece of evidence for this. God,

0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:39.239
<v Speaker 2>it's so funny. A sad thing to say. Yeah, speaking

0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:44.279
<v Speaker 2>of sad, you know what isn't sad the value that

0:41:44.360 --> 0:41:47.560
<v Speaker 2>our sponsors bring to our listeners' lives. In fact, I

0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:50.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know, Ian, would you say that our listeners' lives

0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:54.239
<v Speaker 2>actually have no value whatsoever if they don't purchase the

0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:55.719
<v Speaker 2>products that sponsor our show?

0:41:56.040 --> 0:41:58.040
<v Speaker 4>I think legally I have to say yes.

0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:00.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think you do, based on the contract you

0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:05.560
<v Speaker 2>had designed to get healthcare. Yeah. Anyway, here's a here's ads.

0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:21.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh what a good time? Feeling good, feeling fine? Has

0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:23.880
<v Speaker 2>everybody else great? This is amazing.

0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:25.960
<v Speaker 4>This is like one of the funniest things I've heard

0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:26.359
<v Speaker 4>all week.

0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:31.919
<v Speaker 2>So good good stuff. So, after meeting a kung fu

0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:35.360
<v Speaker 2>master and learning the secrets of the orients, Lydia round

0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:38.800
<v Speaker 2>up back on the East Coast. He was briefly released

0:42:38.880 --> 0:42:40.600
<v Speaker 2>due to like there's some court motions. I think this

0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:42.760
<v Speaker 2>is evidence that Peter Marulas is a pretty good lawyer.

0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:46.240
<v Speaker 2>He basically gets him a few weeks out of prison

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:49.600
<v Speaker 2>to like be with his family based on the technicality

0:42:49.640 --> 0:42:52.800
<v Speaker 2>and like they know this isn't gonna last like this,

0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:55.120
<v Speaker 2>this is the kind of stuff a really good lawyer

0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:56.280
<v Speaker 2>can do for you, right.

0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:58.880
<v Speaker 3>Right, So spring break from prison.

0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you get a little spring break from prison. Then

0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 2>he goes back in and he serves another two years.

0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:10.120
<v Speaker 2>He does fifty two months in total. On April twelfth,

0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:15.240
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy seven, President Jimmy Carter, History's greatest monster, commutes

0:43:15.280 --> 0:43:18.399
<v Speaker 2>his sentence from twenty years to eight quote in the

0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:22.760
<v Speaker 2>interests of justice. Now, this is one of those moves

0:43:22.800 --> 0:43:26.440
<v Speaker 2>that I never understood, right when my knowledge of Woody

0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:28.279
<v Speaker 2>and Watergate was a little more casuals, Like, what the

0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:31.080
<v Speaker 2>fuck was Carter? Why would he do that? Like he's

0:43:31.120 --> 0:43:34.160
<v Speaker 2>not an idiot? Why would he Why would he pardoned

0:43:34.239 --> 0:43:39.920
<v Speaker 2>this very unbelievably guilty man. Hey, guys, Robert, here I misspeak.

0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:42.719
<v Speaker 2>The sentence was commuted, as I noted just a second ago,

0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.640
<v Speaker 2>I use the word pardon here. That's incorrect. A commutation

0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:49.200
<v Speaker 2>basically means that you're not questioning whether or not they

0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:53.600
<v Speaker 2>were guilty. They're still guilty, they're just out of incarceration

0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:56.759
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. This is significant in part because Wddy was

0:43:56.800 --> 0:43:58.799
<v Speaker 2>not legally able to own firearms for the rest of

0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:00.759
<v Speaker 2>his life. Although he still kept owning guns, he just

0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:02.360
<v Speaker 2>said they belonged to his wife. He shouldn't have been

0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:04.799
<v Speaker 2>able to like use them. But people don't come after

0:44:04.920 --> 0:44:07.520
<v Speaker 2>conservatives who get in trouble or hold them to any

0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:10.640
<v Speaker 2>of the standards of their bail or whatever. But Carter,

0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:14.359
<v Speaker 2>that always surprised me. Right Why Jimmy Carter, Why would

0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:16.759
<v Speaker 2>he get this guy out of there? The White House

0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:19.239
<v Speaker 2>spokesman said that the decision was made quote based on

0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:22.239
<v Speaker 2>a comparison of mister Liddy's sentence with all of those

0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:26.520
<v Speaker 2>others convicted in Watergate prosecutions. In other words, I think

0:44:26.560 --> 0:44:30.279
<v Speaker 2>it was Carter's personal sense of fairness. I believe this

0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:32.200
<v Speaker 2>is a bad call, but I get where he's coming from.

0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Right Lyddy, despite being in a repentant fascist, is the

0:44:36.160 --> 0:44:39.360
<v Speaker 2>most respectable of the White House people who go away

0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:44.360
<v Speaker 2>because he doesn't lie or obviously he's like, yeah, I'm guilty,

0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:46.279
<v Speaker 2>put me away. I will say nothing else. I'm not

0:44:46.320 --> 0:44:49.400
<v Speaker 2>gonna roll on anybody. And the fact that all of

0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:51.719
<v Speaker 2>these guys who I think are kind of worse in

0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:55.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways, you know, right Dean. Maybe Dean

0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:59.080
<v Speaker 2>is pretty consistent after Watergate of speaking out against the

0:44:59.120 --> 0:45:02.160
<v Speaker 2>extremism for up to the present day. Right, he's a

0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:07.720
<v Speaker 2>major figure of sort of being anti the modern Republican Party.

0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:11.719
<v Speaker 2>I think he might actually have eventually had kind of

0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:15.120
<v Speaker 2>a real change due to his conscience. Possibly, I'm not

0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:18.360
<v Speaker 2>certain of that. But all these other guys Erlickman and

0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Magruder and fucking E Howard Hunt, these people are fucking trash.

0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Haldomen And the fact that Lyddy does more time than them,

0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:28.400
<v Speaker 2>I think it may have just kind of frustrated Carter

0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:31.720
<v Speaker 2>because he was aware of that, and so he weirdly

0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:33.600
<v Speaker 2>thought it was unfair for Lyddy to stay. And I

0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:36.200
<v Speaker 2>don't think that's a good call, but I think that's

0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:39.040
<v Speaker 2>from everything I've read, I think that's why Carter made it.

0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:41.320
<v Speaker 3>It's the rest of the justice system is so fucked

0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:43.640
<v Speaker 3>that those people didn't go away for longer.

0:45:43.840 --> 0:45:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I still think Carter perfectly fine to be critical

0:45:47.280 --> 0:45:49.160
<v Speaker 2>of him for this choice, but I think that's why

0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:49.839
<v Speaker 2>it was made.

0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:50.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Lyddy gets paroled and his wife picks him

0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:56.759
<v Speaker 2>up from jail. He had had plenty of time to

0:45:56.880 --> 0:45:59.400
<v Speaker 2>think while in prison, and I think he had developed

0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:02.239
<v Speaker 2>a pretty new wants to understanding that his future was

0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:05.200
<v Speaker 2>in media. He's watching TV and stuff, He's getting letters

0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:07.839
<v Speaker 2>from his family. All of these other Watergate guys are

0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:11.359
<v Speaker 2>putting out books that are often best sellers. So he's

0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:14.080
<v Speaker 2>wearing number one. Probably I need to write a book

0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:15.840
<v Speaker 2>about this. There's probably a lot of money in that.

0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:19.719
<v Speaker 2>And number two, I can't work for a campaign anymore.

0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:22.879
<v Speaker 2>I certainly can't be a lawyer anymore. But I can

0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:27.080
<v Speaker 2>charlay my fame and my fame, particularly for being this

0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:31.880
<v Speaker 2>like hard headed, unbreakable soldier of the far right into

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.960
<v Speaker 2>a career. He understands, as long as I stay consistent,

0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:38.759
<v Speaker 2>this can keep me fed forever. Right, And you know,

0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:41.279
<v Speaker 2>he is very famous. There's a crowd that gathers at

0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:43.640
<v Speaker 2>the prison on the day of his release, and when

0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:46.200
<v Speaker 2>he does like a press conference, when his wife picks

0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:48.560
<v Speaker 2>him up and reporters her questions at him. Everyone wants

0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:51.560
<v Speaker 2>to know where he's headed. Liddy gives a cryptic answer

0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:53.839
<v Speaker 2>to that one. He says east of the sun and

0:46:53.920 --> 0:46:58.840
<v Speaker 2>west of the moon. Now, any time he says anything

0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:01.040
<v Speaker 2>that he clearly didn't write it, I'm like, gotta know

0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:03.879
<v Speaker 2>if that's some Nazi shit it is not. This comes

0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:06.000
<v Speaker 2>from a Norwegian folk tale. I went in and read

0:47:06.040 --> 0:47:08.200
<v Speaker 2>it just to be like, is there any like racist

0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:12.160
<v Speaker 2>stuff in there? Not that I saw. It's seems to

0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:14.880
<v Speaker 2>be an adaptation of an older Greek myth. One of

0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:18.239
<v Speaker 2>the things I learned looking into this is that researchers, scientists,

0:47:18.360 --> 0:47:21.400
<v Speaker 2>or whatever who study folk tales, I guess anthropologists have

0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:24.719
<v Speaker 2>a classification system where they like group different kinds of

0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:27.520
<v Speaker 2>folk tales by their type, and this one qualifies as

0:47:27.560 --> 0:47:30.880
<v Speaker 2>type ATU for twenty five A. The Search for the

0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:35.239
<v Speaker 2>Lost Husband or the Animal as Bridegroom. The gist of

0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:37.160
<v Speaker 2>it's a little bit of a Beauty and the Beast

0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:39.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of story. The gist of it is that there's

0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:41.880
<v Speaker 2>this white bear that comes to a poor family and

0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:43.879
<v Speaker 2>it's like, if you give me your your daughter's hand

0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:47.320
<v Speaker 2>in marriage, I'll make you rich. The bear is secretly

0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:51.120
<v Speaker 2>like a cursed prince, right, and when she finds out,

0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:53.960
<v Speaker 2>he's like, look, if you as long as you if

0:47:53.960 --> 0:47:57.359
<v Speaker 2>you don't follow these very specific rules, I'll be sent

0:47:57.440 --> 0:47:59.719
<v Speaker 2>to live with an evil witch and she lives east

0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:01.640
<v Speaker 2>of the on and west of the moon. Anyway, that's

0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:04.800
<v Speaker 2>where the line comes from. Nothing Nazi that I found

0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:05.080
<v Speaker 2>in it.

0:48:05.200 --> 0:48:08.240
<v Speaker 3>But it feels like, given the way his brain works,

0:48:08.360 --> 0:48:11.080
<v Speaker 3>that was supposed to be some kind of code to

0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:15.719
<v Speaker 3>the true you know someone's and it just will never

0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:18.320
<v Speaker 3>know whatever the fuck his trade of thought was impossible.

0:48:18.400 --> 0:48:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he doesn't give a good explanation as to why

0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:22.840
<v Speaker 2>he picked that one to reference. It is a pretty

0:48:22.840 --> 0:48:24.839
<v Speaker 2>good cryptic sounding thing to say. I'll give him that.

0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:28.240
<v Speaker 2>The other question he gets asked is how it feels

0:48:28.239 --> 0:48:30.880
<v Speaker 2>to be out of prison, and Lyddy replies in German,

0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:33.880
<v Speaker 2>what does not kill me makes me stronger. And it

0:48:34.000 --> 0:48:36.799
<v Speaker 2>is true that, like Hitler, Liddy seems to mostly have

0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:41.560
<v Speaker 2>benefited from his time behind bars. This seems to work

0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:44.360
<v Speaker 2>out a lot of times for fascists, especially when you

0:48:44.400 --> 0:48:47.600
<v Speaker 2>cut their sentence in half and don't just really put

0:48:47.640 --> 0:48:51.200
<v Speaker 2>the screws to the fuckers. Maybe a lesson for other folks.

0:48:51.760 --> 0:48:54.839
<v Speaker 2>The Washington Post sat down with his family right around then,

0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:57.320
<v Speaker 2>and they published an article that gives us some fascinating

0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:00.920
<v Speaker 2>glimpses of their lives. While Gordon was away at the

0:49:00.920 --> 0:49:03.680
<v Speaker 2>house in Oxen Hill, the color television was on yesterday

0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:06.120
<v Speaker 2>and a sound tape recorder was nearby so the boys

0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:10.000
<v Speaker 2>could capture any reports concerning their father's release. Two dogs

0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>relaxed on the living room couch outside the famili's fifteen

0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:16.200
<v Speaker 2>or twenty cats minded their own business. Just had to

0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:19.560
<v Speaker 2>tell you that last bit there. The ladies have fifteen

0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:20.480
<v Speaker 2>to twenty cats.

0:49:20.760 --> 0:49:21.680
<v Speaker 3>That's too many cats.

0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:24.879
<v Speaker 2>I love cats. That's too many cats.

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:27.080
<v Speaker 3>That's hard.

0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:33.160
<v Speaker 2>That's a crazy amount of cats. Yeah, anyway, good to know, though,

0:49:33.360 --> 0:49:38.440
<v Speaker 2>interesting color on the family here. So this piece reveals

0:49:38.520 --> 0:49:41.719
<v Speaker 2>that the Liddies had purchased copies of every other Watergate

0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.160
<v Speaker 2>memoir they could get their hands on. I think this

0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:45.840
<v Speaker 2>is so that they can help their dad when he

0:49:45.880 --> 0:49:48.440
<v Speaker 2>has to write his own memoir. And you know, I'll

0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:51.040
<v Speaker 2>give him credit. I've read a number of Watergate memoirs.

0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:54.239
<v Speaker 2>His is the best. Not in terms of its accuracy,

0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:58.000
<v Speaker 2>none of them are trustworthy, but it's it's the most readable.

0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:00.759
<v Speaker 2>You can't put it down. He is actually this is

0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:03.440
<v Speaker 2>one of the things he is actually good at, one

0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:05.560
<v Speaker 2>of the only things that he's legitimately a skilled with.

0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:08.960
<v Speaker 2>He's a pretty good writer. Like he's he's effective. He's

0:50:08.960 --> 0:50:12.840
<v Speaker 2>not like an artistic writers, like he's not fucking you know,

0:50:12.920 --> 0:50:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Cormack McCarthy or whatever, but he is. He's extremely effective.

0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:20.120
<v Speaker 2>He's very clear, he understands how to pace things. You're

0:50:20.160 --> 0:50:23.279
<v Speaker 2>never bored, you know you. I read the whole book

0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:24.960
<v Speaker 2>through cover to cover, and I was at a pretty

0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:28.279
<v Speaker 2>consistent level of interest the whole time, partly because it's

0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:30.440
<v Speaker 2>so crazy. But he doesn't get in his own way

0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:32.680
<v Speaker 2>right with his pros, So I'll give him credit for that.

0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.480
<v Speaker 2>He's not a bad writer. The most interesting thing that

0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.920
<v Speaker 2>Washington Post Piece gives us as a snapshot is an

0:50:39.000 --> 0:50:42.399
<v Speaker 2>understanding of how deep the Liddy family's Nixon derangement went.

0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:45.360
<v Speaker 2>Quote Jim and Tom Liddy said they had watched the

0:50:45.440 --> 0:50:48.440
<v Speaker 2>end of the first episode of Washington Behind Closed Doors.

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:51.040
<v Speaker 2>They said they are not angry at Nixon for referring

0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:53.560
<v Speaker 2>in the Frost interview to those involved in the Watergate

0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:56.799
<v Speaker 2>operation as nuts. I don't blame him for anything. He's

0:50:56.840 --> 0:51:01.279
<v Speaker 2>gone through so much, said Dom poor Dick Nixon, the

0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:02.839
<v Speaker 2>real victim of Watergate.

0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:08.400
<v Speaker 3>Oh, just the ultimate, the ultimate fascist since.

0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:11.239
<v Speaker 2>These people, yeah, it is. It is remarkable. I didn't

0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:15.160
<v Speaker 2>know people could be that fascist, But by God, now

0:51:15.160 --> 0:51:17.480
<v Speaker 2>the most important thing you get here is an understanding

0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:20.080
<v Speaker 2>of what a nightmare this whole period behind bars is

0:51:20.120 --> 0:51:23.200
<v Speaker 2>for missus Liddy. In addition to being the breadwinner, she

0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:27.080
<v Speaker 2>has to raise their adolescent children alone. Quote their mother,

0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:29.440
<v Speaker 2>Tom Liddy said, is having it harder than we are

0:51:29.719 --> 0:51:33.560
<v Speaker 2>holding the place financially together, Jim said, finishing his brother's sentence.

0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:35.920
<v Speaker 2>There were ups and downs, but she went through all

0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:38.480
<v Speaker 2>of them. And then the mentions of the Liddy marriage

0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:40.440
<v Speaker 2>have always been kind of confusing to me. They are

0:51:40.440 --> 0:51:44.200
<v Speaker 2>together for fifty four years. I have heard speculation that

0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:47.680
<v Speaker 2>he cheated on her at one or more points. It's

0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:50.279
<v Speaker 2>common enough that I think there might be something to it,

0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:52.319
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of

0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:56.160
<v Speaker 2>it either, certainly nothing that's like conclusive. Some of what

0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:59.000
<v Speaker 2>he writes about her does seem to me to be

0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:02.799
<v Speaker 2>borderline abuse. Of the clearest example of that comes right

0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.440
<v Speaker 2>after his release, when she picks him up from prison.

0:52:05.920 --> 0:52:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Lyddy saw what, he claims, as she's driving away from

0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:11.400
<v Speaker 2>the prison, he sees four he calls them, four cream

0:52:11.480 --> 0:52:15.040
<v Speaker 2>colored Ford Grenadas with New York license plates that identify

0:52:15.080 --> 0:52:18.319
<v Speaker 2>them as press cars that start following him, tracking him

0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:20.719
<v Speaker 2>as they're leaving the jail. Now I looked into it.

0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:25.000
<v Speaker 2>New York does issue special marked plates for journalists. You know,

0:52:25.040 --> 0:52:26.920
<v Speaker 2>you have to be with a pretty big outlet to

0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:28.879
<v Speaker 2>get them, but that is a thing that they do.

0:52:29.440 --> 0:52:32.720
<v Speaker 2>Lyddy claims that he had Fran drive slowly at first

0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:34.440
<v Speaker 2>so they could all get a shot of him, and

0:52:34.480 --> 0:52:37.120
<v Speaker 2>he hoped they would leave, but they keep following him.

0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:40.439
<v Speaker 2>Fran tries to lose them, but Lyddy writes, quote, she's

0:52:40.600 --> 0:52:42.880
<v Speaker 2>just not cut out for that sort of thing. So

0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:46.719
<v Speaker 2>Lyddy the man has to take charge and save them

0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:50.280
<v Speaker 2>from these these journalist cars that are tracking them, because

0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:54.359
<v Speaker 2>obviously he's got the FBI. We're gonna talk in part

0:52:54.360 --> 0:52:56.880
<v Speaker 2>two about his FBI driving. We get a chance to

0:52:56.920 --> 0:52:59.680
<v Speaker 2>test him when he's on fear Factor. As a spoiler

0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:01.200
<v Speaker 2>for a where this whole episode is.

0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:03.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's right.

0:53:03.160 --> 0:53:05.680
<v Speaker 2>We come to a Joe Rogan point at the end here,

0:53:05.920 --> 0:53:08.959
<v Speaker 2>panning off the fat but anyway, so Lyddy the man

0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:12.480
<v Speaker 2>has to take charge. Pull over? What you heard me?

0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Pull over? We're putting in the first team, but you're

0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:19.479
<v Speaker 2>not even ensured. Don't argue with me. Goddamn it. Pull over.

0:53:19.600 --> 0:53:19.880
<v Speaker 3>God.

0:53:20.120 --> 0:53:23.680
<v Speaker 2>So he takes over behind the wheel, but he can't

0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:26.799
<v Speaker 2>lose the tail, right. It doesn't matter that he's taken over,

0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:29.040
<v Speaker 2>because he's no better at this than her. And an

0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:31.560
<v Speaker 2>honest observer might conclude from this that, like, maybe you

0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:34.319
<v Speaker 2>don't actually know anything about losing a tail, ge Gordon Liddy,

0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:37.760
<v Speaker 2>maybe you have absolutely no skills driving in this manner.

0:53:39.360 --> 0:53:41.520
<v Speaker 2>But he can't admit this, and he writes that he

0:53:41.560 --> 0:53:44.480
<v Speaker 2>told his wife, I know they've got more cylinders and radios,

0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:46.960
<v Speaker 2>but nobody stays with me when I don't want him to.

0:53:47.320 --> 0:53:50.200
<v Speaker 2>There's something wrong here. I know, I guess they do.

0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:54.680
<v Speaker 2>His solution to this problem is to drive like even

0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:57.279
<v Speaker 2>more of a maniac. He like does a one point

0:53:57.320 --> 0:53:59.359
<v Speaker 2>eighty in the middle of like a busy.

0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:01.120
<v Speaker 3>Street, like and shit.

0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:06.239
<v Speaker 2>This terrifies his wife. She has spent close to half

0:54:06.280 --> 0:54:08.960
<v Speaker 2>a decade dealing with all of this unimaginable stress on

0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:12.800
<v Speaker 2>his behalf. She picks him up, probably not entirely certain

0:54:13.040 --> 0:54:14.799
<v Speaker 2>how the man that she married is going to be

0:54:14.840 --> 0:54:17.640
<v Speaker 2>different after five almost five years a prison, and then

0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:22.680
<v Speaker 2>he immediately goes insane on the highway, shouting about imaginary

0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:23.839
<v Speaker 2>people following them.

0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:27.160
<v Speaker 3>I mean, to her comfort, it's nice that he hasn't

0:54:27.239 --> 0:54:28.080
<v Speaker 3>changed in prison.

0:54:28.400 --> 0:54:33.240
<v Speaker 2>I guess maybe quote it was a challenge. I couldn't resist,

0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.080
<v Speaker 2>and I took off, hitting over seventy miles per hour

0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:39.720
<v Speaker 2>through city streets, going through red lights deliberately and taking

0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:42.080
<v Speaker 2>turns at the limit of adhesion. By the time I

0:54:42.080 --> 0:54:45.240
<v Speaker 2>got into Jersey, there were only two tails left, and Franz,

0:54:45.320 --> 0:54:47.920
<v Speaker 2>scared at her wits, was crying uncontrollably.

0:54:48.440 --> 0:54:49.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god.

0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:53.080
<v Speaker 2>So's his wife is just sobbing, and he's like, no,

0:54:53.160 --> 0:54:55.240
<v Speaker 2>I did a good job. Only two guys are still

0:54:55.280 --> 0:54:56.000
<v Speaker 2>following us.

0:54:56.120 --> 0:55:01.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, two out of four. You know that radio exist.

0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:06.600
<v Speaker 2>You are still being tailed ge Gordon Lyddy. Lyddy eventually

0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:09.440
<v Speaker 2>claims he lost the tale. I don't think he relieved.

0:55:09.480 --> 0:55:12.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe that at all. Maybe they lived in

0:55:12.680 --> 0:55:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Jersey and we're glad like yeah. After an extremely long journey,

0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:21.479
<v Speaker 2>which he says that his basically him failing to lose

0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:24.680
<v Speaker 2>this tale, and traumatizing his wife is a victory, a

0:55:24.760 --> 0:55:29.240
<v Speaker 2>symbolic victory of his triumph over Judd Sri Rika Quote

0:55:29.360 --> 0:55:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and his allies in the press. And I love that

0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:33.920
<v Speaker 2>he sees it that way because it's like, man, the

0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:37.000
<v Speaker 2>New York Times argued, you should be released. The press

0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:41.279
<v Speaker 2>are your only real friends. Yeah, like Nixon threw you

0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:45.480
<v Speaker 2>under the bus. The media held you up because they

0:55:45.520 --> 0:55:48.520
<v Speaker 2>wanted to like make money writing stories about you. Your

0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:51.080
<v Speaker 2>whole career came from the fact that the press were

0:55:51.080 --> 0:55:52.160
<v Speaker 2>your allies. Anyway.

0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:56.640
<v Speaker 3>Whatever, Although that's classic, I mean that playbook gets repeated

0:55:57.040 --> 0:55:59.840
<v Speaker 3>so much more in the people who he influenced.

0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Lyddy is so overjoyed at his victory over this tale

0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:06.720
<v Speaker 2>that he starts singing the lyrics from his favorite song,

0:56:06.840 --> 0:56:09.680
<v Speaker 2>which comes from the play. Now this comes from I

0:56:09.760 --> 0:56:11.520
<v Speaker 2>expected him to like sing, I don't know my country

0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:15.040
<v Speaker 2>tis the He picks a song from the musical Cabaret,

0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:18.560
<v Speaker 2>which he had and it's a song that he modified

0:56:18.640 --> 0:56:23.719
<v Speaker 2>quote to suit myself. The lyrics go America, America, show

0:56:23.800 --> 0:56:26.440
<v Speaker 2>us the sign your children have waited to see. The

0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:29.600
<v Speaker 2>morning will come when the world is thine. Tomorrow belongs

0:56:29.640 --> 0:56:33.799
<v Speaker 2>to thee. Now that could be kind of innocuous, right,

0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:36.719
<v Speaker 2>But when I saw that line, especially the part about

0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:38.840
<v Speaker 2>how he had reworked the lyrics of the song to

0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:40.800
<v Speaker 2>see himself, I had to look into it a little deeper.

0:56:41.239 --> 0:56:44.120
<v Speaker 2>The song he was singing that he had modified is

0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:47.960
<v Speaker 2>called Tomorrow Belongs to Me, which could be fascy, and

0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:51.240
<v Speaker 2>in fact is because it's from a nineteen sixty six Cabarets,

0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:55.200
<v Speaker 2>a nineteen sixty six musical, and it's written by two

0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:59.640
<v Speaker 2>Jewish musicians right, who are lampooning at the fascist qualities

0:56:59.640 --> 0:57:03.720
<v Speaker 2>that they and American nationalism. The specific song Tomorrow Belongs

0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:06.440
<v Speaker 2>to Me is sung by a Nazi in the play.

0:57:06.719 --> 0:57:09.880
<v Speaker 2>It is specifically a Nazi song about his view of

0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:13.640
<v Speaker 2>patriotism that Lee has modified and is kind of like

0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:19.160
<v Speaker 2>unronically singing because he is such a fucking fascist, and

0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:21.440
<v Speaker 2>in fact he's not the only to do this. Nazis

0:57:21.560 --> 0:57:24.440
<v Speaker 2>love this is an example of like kind of failed satire,

0:57:24.720 --> 0:57:28.440
<v Speaker 2>because Nazis love the song Tomorrow Belongs to Me. They

0:57:28.480 --> 0:57:30.600
<v Speaker 2>love it so much that they have been adapting it

0:57:30.640 --> 0:57:33.120
<v Speaker 2>for their own albums and pre printing lines from it

0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:36.600
<v Speaker 2>in their propaganda since the nineteen seventies. The first use

0:57:36.640 --> 0:57:38.480
<v Speaker 2>of the song by a white power band that we

0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:41.840
<v Speaker 2>have documentation of was the year before Liddy published his

0:57:41.880 --> 0:57:47.200
<v Speaker 2>autobiography Will nineteen seventy nine, when British Nazi band Screwdriver

0:57:47.400 --> 0:57:50.800
<v Speaker 2>does a cover of it. Screwdriver are like hardcore fucking

0:57:50.840 --> 0:57:55.400
<v Speaker 2>fascist musicians. Swedish Nazi singer Saga also records the cover

0:57:55.440 --> 0:57:58.560
<v Speaker 2>of this song, which is cited by Norwegian mass shooter

0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Anders Brevik as one of the things that inspired him

0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to gun down like seventy children. So yeah, great love

0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:10.440
<v Speaker 2>that she Gordon Lyddy is singing this.

0:58:11.120 --> 0:58:13.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean, so unsurprising, but.

0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Very very This might be the most direct Nazi thing

0:58:17.200 --> 0:58:18.280
<v Speaker 2>that I've seen him do.

0:58:18.560 --> 0:58:21.320
<v Speaker 3>Right, And that's pretty impressive, pretty.

0:58:21.000 --> 0:58:24.240
<v Speaker 2>And that he's said a lot. Lyddy claims at the

0:58:24.280 --> 0:58:26.880
<v Speaker 2>end that after belting out this fascist anthem, his wife

0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:30.440
<v Speaker 2>looks over at him with tears in her eyes and says, God,

0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:33.800
<v Speaker 2>after all these years, you haven't changed at all. She

0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:37.680
<v Speaker 2>blew her nose lustily than side. I don't suppose you

0:58:37.760 --> 0:58:41.240
<v Speaker 2>ever will. I grinned over at her. Bet your ass, kid,

0:58:42.880 --> 0:58:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.640
<v Speaker 4>How does someone blow their nose lustily?

0:58:46.760 --> 0:58:51.000
<v Speaker 2>That's a great question, Ian, I don't think they do,

0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:57.000
<v Speaker 2>but maybe snot perverts right those have Yeah, there's gotta

0:58:57.040 --> 0:59:00.840
<v Speaker 2>be there's there has to be a thriving online snot

0:59:00.840 --> 0:59:06.360
<v Speaker 2>pervert community definitely, like that has a larger GDP than Liechtenstein, right,

0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:09.320
<v Speaker 2>the number of the amount of money and snot pervert stuff.

0:59:09.560 --> 0:59:12.240
<v Speaker 2>You can you could start your own city outside of

0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Sicton Valley. That's where we're going to close things out

0:59:18.440 --> 0:59:20.880
<v Speaker 2>for today because this is basically where his book ends.

0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Don't worry, we have a lot more to say about

0:59:22.920 --> 0:59:25.360
<v Speaker 2>g Gordon Liddy, but this is kind of the endpoint

0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:30.720
<v Speaker 2>of his his autobiography. Will so Andrew you anything to plug?

0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:35.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Yeah, since the last episode, we triumphed over the

0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:38.720
<v Speaker 3>fucking AMPTP asterisk.

0:59:38.840 --> 0:59:40.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, eat their asses?

0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:45.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, better better than anyone ever thought labor fucking works. Yeah,

0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:49.840
<v Speaker 3>Strike is over. I don't know. I'm not going back

0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:52.360
<v Speaker 3>to a writer's room, so I'm back to just the hustle.

0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:56.320
<v Speaker 3>But I don't know. Still still Jos, this racist still

0:59:56.920 --> 0:59:59.240
<v Speaker 3>got premium shows. We did a little Strike wrap up

0:59:59.280 --> 1:00:02.400
<v Speaker 3>that I think people found informative, So I don't know,

1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:03.000
<v Speaker 3>check it out.

1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Hi, hire Andrew put him in a room. I

1:00:06.560 --> 1:00:09.640
<v Speaker 2>know David S. Goyer always listens to the podcast, so

1:00:10.080 --> 1:00:12.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, bring him on.

1:00:12.720 --> 1:00:14.800
<v Speaker 3>Well we still got, we still got you know, if

1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.120
<v Speaker 3>we can just get someone to see the vision of

1:00:17.240 --> 1:00:20.520
<v Speaker 3>super Soaker full of piss, there's two options. A lot

1:00:20.520 --> 1:00:22.000
<v Speaker 3>of irons of the fire, a lot.

1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Of irons in the fire. I'm pushing Goyer specifically because

1:00:25.760 --> 1:00:28.120
<v Speaker 2>it's my dream that you'll get You'll get staffed on

1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Foundation and then I can parlay that into having lunch

1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:35.320
<v Speaker 2>with Lee Pace, which is my life.

1:00:34.840 --> 1:00:38.760
<v Speaker 3>Said well, yeah, that my promise to you. I guess

1:00:38.920 --> 1:00:39.520
<v Speaker 3>we'll do that.

1:00:40.080 --> 1:00:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there, there we go, just a minute out Burg.

1:00:43.200 --> 1:00:45.440
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have to be anything fancy, you know, it

1:00:45.480 --> 1:00:47.760
<v Speaker 2>can be fancy Lee if you want it to be

1:00:48.160 --> 1:00:52.480
<v Speaker 2>ye any to you. This has been behind the Bastards.

1:00:52.520 --> 1:00:53.880
<v Speaker 2>If you want to listen to this show and all

1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:57.160
<v Speaker 2>of our other shows free of ads. Cool Zone what

1:00:57.520 --> 1:01:01.680
<v Speaker 2>do we cool Zone? Cooler Zone thanks a Cooler Zone

1:01:01.680 --> 1:01:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Media subscribe. It's not very much money and there's no ads.

1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:07.240
<v Speaker 2>So if you're doing a road trip, if you have

1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:09.200
<v Speaker 2>a long if you have like a nine hour drive,

1:01:09.560 --> 1:01:11.080
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, you know, it'll get me and my

1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:15.440
<v Speaker 2>family through. This nine hour drive is learning a disastrous

1:01:15.600 --> 1:01:17.080
<v Speaker 2>amount about g Gordon Liddi.

1:01:17.200 --> 1:01:17.720
<v Speaker 4>You can do that.

1:01:17.640 --> 1:01:18.720
<v Speaker 3>Without ads, you know.

1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyway, so it's fifty cooler, all right, Everybody go

1:01:24.600 --> 1:01:25.480
<v Speaker 2>to Hell. I Love You.

1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:32.080
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:01:32.200 --> 1:01:35.480
<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia

1:01:35.640 --> 1:01:38.840
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1:01:38.920 --> 1:01:43.800
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