1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristin 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and this week's theme is art history, 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: or rather art history. I love it. Yes, Indeed, today 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about the female nude in art, 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: is particularly in Western art, and this male muse female 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: nude relationship, which I know I remember seeing on screen 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: for the first time in the classic film Titanic. That's right, 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: that was so racy for me in seventh grade. Yeah, 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: I watched it in the theater with my mother because 11 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: she felt like she needed to supervise me seeing this 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: nude scene, and it was it was a little uncomfortable 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: with Chad, that's my father. I saw with my father, Yeah, 14 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: le and Arto DiCaprio as Jack painting, Kate Winslet as 15 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: Rose wearing that wearing that necklace. Yeah, and nothing else. Yeah. 16 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, she's not wearing anything. She's wearing clothes in 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: the rest of the movie. But anyway, another spoiler the 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: boat saying no. But since this isn't a podcast on 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: my memories of watching James Cameron movies with my mother, 20 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: let's talk about the female nude in art history because 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: the history of this figure is fascinating. The very fact 22 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: that we refer to it as a nude and not 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: a naked figure is really interesting. And then that whole 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: relationship between the male artists and female muse has so 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: much contains so much for us to unpack. Yeah, that's right, 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: And so let's start off with a quote from Lynda Need, 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: who's an art historian and author of The Female Nude. 28 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: She writes issues concerning the female body and cultural value, representation, 29 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: feminism and cultural politics, and the definition and regulation of 30 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: the obscene are brought into clearer focus when the female 31 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: Nude is read as a historical text. And I mean, 32 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: if you think about it, not knowing anything about art, 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: it would make sense that there is some historical context 34 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: to the nude through the centuries. But there really is, 35 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: Like you said, so much to unpack, so much different 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 1: meaning wrapped up in different representations of the human body. Yeah, 37 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: And what we're gonna be doing in this podcast is 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: trying to do just that. Read the female nude as 39 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: an historical text, and we're going to be highlighting some 40 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: specific paintings and we'll be doing our best to describe 41 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: them as not being professional art historians or art critics, 42 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: and to kick things off, though it was actually the 43 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: group Guerrilla Girls which originally raised this question of do 44 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: women then have to be naked to get into the Met? 45 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: And they were raising issue with the abundance of female 46 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: nudes in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the abundance 47 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: of male painters and sculptors represented by them, and the 48 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: statistics they collected just by walking through the museum were 49 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: a little imbalanced, shall we say. Yeah. So they've done 50 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: this campaign a couple of times, starting in nineteen eighty nine, 51 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: and they ended up putting out a bunch of uh 52 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: press releases, billboards, basically media around the numbers that they found. 53 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: In in nineteen eighty nine, they found the less than 54 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: five percent of the artists in the met art sections 55 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: were women, but eight five percent of the nudes were female. 56 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: Fast forward to two thousand four, both of those numbers 57 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: had dropped to three percent and eighty three percent, respectively, 58 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: and in when they repeated their study, they found that 59 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: less than four percent of the artists and the Met 60 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: were women, but seventies six percent of the nudes were female. 61 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: So we're getting fewer female artists in the met and 62 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: a fewer female nudes, which kind of shakes out to 63 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily progress. But they were painting pun there, painting 64 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: an important point about obviously what kind of art is 65 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: considered important, and also the very gendered history of art. 66 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: They were not really going to get into that much 67 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: in this episode because for a long time women weren't 68 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: even allowed in art schools. We've been having to play 69 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: catch up. Yeah, exactly, And so let's take a walk, 70 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: shall we, yes through the history of of naked lady 71 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: statues and paintings. So let's start in classical antiquity, because 72 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: this is really where the female nude begins. Now, of course, 73 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: we should mention that there are some exceptions to that, 74 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: such as the Venus of Villendorff, a statue of fertility 75 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: got us with the very large breasts and buttocks, which 76 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: dates back to around thirty thousand, thousand BC, and also 77 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: some ancient Indian temple art depicting female nudes. But a 78 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: lot of art historians will tell you that the nude, 79 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: and especially the female nude, is a primarily Western art 80 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: phenomenon that really begins in Greece. Yeah, and a lot 81 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: of This is coming from Larissa Bonfante's paper and Nudity 82 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: as a Costume in Classical Art. And I was just 83 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: telling Christen before we came into the studio that this 84 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: is a very long paper and it could be interpreted 85 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: as a little dry. I'm sorry, Larissa, but it is 86 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: so interesting and and me having only taken one art 87 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: history class ever in college, um, and I was such 88 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: a nerd for it and I loved it. But you know, 89 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: journalism called so I couldn't. But anyway, it is absolutely 90 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: right up my alley. And she she really delved so 91 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: deeply into the context surrounding both the male nude and 92 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: the female nude and why one looks the way it 93 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: does and why the other one is maybe not as 94 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: acceptable or was not as acceptable to begin with. But 95 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: she points out that in ancient Greece art culture, everything 96 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: really revolved around the male nude and what it meant 97 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: because the male nude was based on this ideal image 98 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: of a man. In the ideal image of a man 99 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: came from athletes. Greeks were all about working out and 100 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: getting buff in the buff. Yeah, the first Olympics in 101 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: the nude, there were no there were no Nike jerseys 102 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: and shorts. Now, I mean they did wear like a 103 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: loincloth type thing sometimes, And she points out that Greeks 104 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: throughout throughout ancient Greek history, they themselves weren't even sure 105 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: where their tradition of donning the costume of nudity came from, 106 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: but that you were supposed to be this super hyper masculine, 107 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 1: buff guy who was ready to fight if you were nude. Yeah, 108 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: And she notes too how that ideal male nudity was 109 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: really considered quote the highest kind of beauty, which is 110 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: a little bit in opposition to maybe our perception of 111 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: beauty in the twenty one century today, which is often 112 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: more of a feminine ideal. But back then, the body 113 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: was all about that male, chiseled, proportioned body. Yeah. And 114 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: they were definitely intended to celebrate perfection and not reflect 115 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: physical reality or variety. They weren't trying to like show 116 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: what you know, the agrekola down the street looked like 117 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: they wanted to show the ideal man who was an 118 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: athlete or a hero or a god. Because male nudity 119 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: equals power, It really symbolized power. But it's also important 120 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: to keep in mind that homo eroticism and homosexuality around 121 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: this time in ancient Greece was totally a okay, you know, 122 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: it was and out of the norm um. And so 123 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,559 Speaker 1: the male figure, especially in the gymnasium, uh, the nude 124 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: male figure was absolutely accepted and considered to be a 125 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: thing of beauty. Well. And it's also worth noting too 126 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: that in exactly what you said about how those nudes 127 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: weren't intended to show what the average male body looked like, 128 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: they were in the oldest school sense of the word 129 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: photoshopped or airbrush. Maybe you've been doing that, removing our 130 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: flaws and creating these beauty ideals since we first kind 131 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: of started all of this to begin with. And the 132 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: Greek word chorus ko u r o s is meant 133 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: to describe these types of sculptures of men who are 134 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: naked standing in those kinds of classical power poses, and 135 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: a lot of time, if they weren't meant to signify 136 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: a godlike Apollo specifically, then they were used in a 137 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: temple maybe to honor him or in a way to 138 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: sort of honored divin any but the female equivalent, the 139 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: corey statue, who's also a a woman standing upright facing 140 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: forward is usually clothed, and she was not based on 141 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: any ideal feminine shape or appearance. She was basically the 142 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: male shape that they were like, Oh, we're gonna put 143 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: a dress on this one. It's a lady. And so 144 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: while the male was supposed to symbolize divinity and perfection, 145 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: he was nude and that was fabulous. The woman was 146 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: definitely going to be clothed because the context of nudity 147 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: versus clothing in ancient Greek society. I mean, there's so 148 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: much that we could get into, but we won't, but 149 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: I will just touch on it by saying that a 150 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: man was ready to fight basically when he was nude, 151 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: and he was ready to work out and get buff 152 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: and sweat, whereas if a woman were seeing without clothes on, 153 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: she with her pale skin and her soft flesh because 154 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: she doesn't go outside that much and do hard work 155 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: like men. Do you know, she was considered unprotected if 156 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: she was if she was nude or naked, and um 157 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: would the nudity for a woman at this time would 158 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: symbolize something bad, like she was about to be attacked, 159 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: or she was a prostitute or something like that. Yeah, 160 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: it's symbolized the exact opposite of the power inherent to 161 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: male nudity, which was weakness or powerless nest. Now, Bonfonte 162 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: also points out that it could also function as powerful magic, 163 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: but even in that regard, it's obviously not something that 164 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: is as normalized and accepted. Right, But if we hit 165 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: the fourth century b C. Well things get shaken up 166 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: a little bit. We get an very famous aphrodity sculpture 167 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: by Praxiteles, and he totally throws convention out the window. Yeah, 168 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: I mean, this sculpture is mentioned in pretty much any 169 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: article that you would read about the history of the 170 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: female nude, because it's kind of the first in the 171 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: sense of depicting full female nudity. But it's important that 172 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: Practicelli does this on a sculpture of a divinity, the 173 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: goddess of love. It's usually um goddesses or you know, 174 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: these mythological female figures that are considered acceptable to be 175 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: shown in the nude, and especially the association with love, eroticism, sex, 176 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: and also to mythological figures representing fertility would be acceptable 177 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: as well, because I mean think about how you know, 178 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: in this kind of context, the female body is really 179 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: just a vessel for sex reproduction. Yeah, exactly, desire things 180 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, depicting a naked a nude or naked 181 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: regular lady is definitely considered impoor taste. But the gods 182 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: and the goddesses were almost above all that. It's almost 183 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: okay to depict, you know, the Goddess of love being naked, 184 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: because you know you're not. She's not going to care 185 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: about anything you say. Yeah, well, she would probably have 186 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: possessed that powerful magic through her nudity and Bonefontine notes, 187 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: even in classic Greek art, and this is a trend 188 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: that will continue into more modern art, naked women just 189 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: everyday women would usually be considered prostitutes in that context 190 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: and an art artistic context. But that's not to say 191 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,239 Speaker 1: that the work Bipraxicalities was not at some points titilating. 192 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: Just because it was a goddess and she's above your 193 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: scorn or whatever people doesn't mean that the viewers weren't like, 194 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: oh my goodness. Yeah. Jonathan Jones, who is an art 195 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: critic writing for The Guardian, notes that apparently at least 196 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: one person, at least one person maybe more, attempted to 197 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: copulate with CAPITALI ine venus with the statue. Uh, and 198 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: and she's saying, we should note she's naked and one 199 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: of her hands is covering up her mom's pubis and 200 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: the other hand is sort of cupping her breast. And 201 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: I mean, seeing it from our perspective today, it doesn't 202 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: it's not shocking because we see so many We've seen 203 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: so many statues, sculptures and paintings like this. Um. But 204 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: I can understand how if you don't see this kind 205 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: of female figure in such an unclosed state and it 206 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: being like okay, and her not just being symbolized as 207 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: a prostitute, maybe that's I mean, what do you do 208 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: with that? I can understand how it would be shocking 209 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: and perhaps even arousing if this is the first time 210 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: you're seeing something like this, right, And a lot of 211 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: the sources that Kristen and I were looking at point 212 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: out that the very way that capitaliine venus is standing 213 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: also sort of informs the way that people think about 214 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: it and how they interpreted as erotic versus art, you 215 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: know what I mean. The fact that she's actively trying 216 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: to cover herself up is doing even more to draw 217 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: attention to the fact that she could be is a 218 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: sexual being you know, if she weren't marble uh, statues 219 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: are people to Caroline, statues are people too, And by 220 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: covering up, it's almost more erotic than if she were 221 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: just kind of standing there with her hands on her hips, 222 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: like smoking a marble cigarette, you know, like I'm just 223 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: hanging out. Well, and notable too that she's standing next 224 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: to her her garment. She's just come from bathing herself, 225 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: so there's a reason for her nudity. She's not just 226 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: hanging out for the naked for the sake of being naked, 227 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: because that would be awful. Well, that would be yes, 228 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: that would be an inappropriate totally um. But we see 229 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: things start to shift um in the Byzantine Era and 230 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages with the spread of Christianity, female 231 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: nudes start to get covered up basically until classical antiquity 232 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: gets rediscovered and becomes exalted in the Renaissance. And so 233 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: when we start in the Byzantine Era, like in the 234 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: fourth century through to the Middle Ages, nudity was associated 235 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: with guilt or shame or even low brow humor, especially 236 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: women's and overall, naked men and women were associated closely 237 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: with pagan Greek culture, which was not okay, And then 238 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: when you get into the Middle Ages and the fifth 239 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: to about the fourteenth century, things take a turn because 240 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: at this point nudity is considered down right sinful. Yeah, 241 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: the emphasis is completely on chastity. So Christianity has kind 242 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: of like shutting down put on a robe. But then 243 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: with this sort of rediscovery and newfound appreciation for Greco 244 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: Roman cultural values, and you see this big time in 245 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: the art work, and you see these kinds of images 246 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: starting to pop up, for instance with Botachelli's Birth of Venus, 247 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: which was painted in fourteen eighty four, and this is 248 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: a very famous painting. Most of our listeners have probably 249 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: seen this. You can probably recall Venus standing in her seashell, 250 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: covering her one, you know, one of her breasts, and 251 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: then her hair is that her hair that's covering up 252 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: her her vulva, So she's she's she's nude, but again 253 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: it's not it's not naked, right, And she's standing very 254 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: similarly to the way that capitalize practically is capitalized. Venus 255 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: is standing um, but rather than kind of looking to 256 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: the side like the other Venus was, she's looking directly 257 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: out at you, being like, yeah, my goddess. What. Yeah, 258 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: and this is thought to be one of the Renaissance's 259 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: first large scale female nudes, and it's notable too the body. 260 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: Shelly was like, Hey, you know what I'm gonna do. 261 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna use this whole mythology plus spiritual, spirituality and 262 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: divinity thing to make it okay for me to be 263 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: depicting a woman like this, and that playing with religious 264 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: and mythological imagery and symbolism is going to be something 265 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: that other artists as well will use in order to 266 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: sort of prevent scandal for happening. Otherwise it makes it 267 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: permissible for them to be painting women in this way. Yeah, 268 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: And I mean it's something that we're going to see 269 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: for the next forever. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I'm 270 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: glad that you mentioned the gaze too, because that's something 271 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: that comes up a lot as well in terms of how, 272 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: at the time that these paintings were being shown for 273 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: the first time, how they were in the level to 274 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: which they were interpreted as scandalous or not. Well, speaking 275 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: of scandalous, we get to Titian's Venus of Urbino in 276 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: fifteen thirty eight, and there's a lot happening in this 277 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: picture speaking of the gays. The subject of the painting 278 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: is staring right out at the viewer. The subject is 279 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: completely naked, and she has a hand again over her volva, 280 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 1: but nothing covering her breasts, and she is I mean, 281 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: she is staring right at you and like here I am, 282 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: I'm on this shase lounge and I'm holding grapes, and 283 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: there's a dog and a kid, and there's another lady 284 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: in the room who knows what's going on. I mean, 285 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: you have like presumably her child and maybe the nurse 286 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: maid in the background. But the thing though about her hand, 287 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: her left hand, which is yes, covering up her volva, 288 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: and though there is a shadow in that region, there 289 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: are no definitive pubic hairs visible, which we will revisit, 290 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: but her fingertips are not entirely visible. And some people 291 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: found that a bit much as well, because it's this 292 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: question of Titian what were you getting at? What is 293 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: she really doing here? Are we catching her in a 294 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: moment of pleasure or is her hand just benignly resting 295 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: in that spot, just resting in that spot there could 296 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: be a breeze, Yeah, detecting I mean holding a pose 297 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: for a portrait, it would get a little chilly, one 298 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: would assume. But it's interesting too talking about playing with 299 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: symbolism and contrast. You have the you know, rather erotic 300 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: female body in the foreground, but then in the background 301 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: you have motherhood, the child, the maid of the sleeping 302 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: puppy next to her. It's really interesting how all of 303 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: that sort of balances out right now. Meanwhile, in the 304 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: fifteenth century, drawing from life had really become part of 305 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: workshop practice. Although women typically we're not used as models 306 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: because Michaelangelo's women, for instance, were just modified men. And 307 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: this was the same thing that we saw with the 308 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: Greek statues of the Karai, which were male figures sort 309 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: of modified to be female. Yeah, and this is something 310 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: that Ellen Graves, writing for the University of Dundee Museum, 311 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: points out. And I mean, considering that women were excluded 312 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: that much from the artistic process that of course they 313 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: weren't in art schools or receiving any kind of formal 314 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: training at that point, and certainly weren't painting any nudes. 315 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: It was even questionable that they would even be able 316 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: to pose nude for for these paintings, and yet them 317 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: being pictured in this way presented is still more acceptable. 318 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: As long as they're not actively involved in it, then 319 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: it's okay. But we can look at them and appreciate 320 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: them from afar, from behind a frame, the gilded frame. 321 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: It's all a metaphor. But jumping forward to the seventeenth century, 322 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: the Baroque period begins to embrace more realism. Example, Flemish 323 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: Peter Paul Rubens, who was the seventeenth centuries go to 324 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: female nude dude. Rubens was all about some some curvaceous 325 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: lady nudes. And I first learned about Rubens Caroline when 326 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: I was a kid because and I need to ask 327 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: them about this, because I have no idea why. My 328 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: parents had this huge Rubens coffee table book that they 329 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: kept in our formal dining room that we never really 330 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: went into all that much. And I remember playing in 331 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: there one time as a child randomly and pulling out 332 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: this book and be like, whoa, oh, who should I 333 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: even be looking at this? And it was like, yeah, 334 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: I don't for my pretty conservative parents. It was a 335 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: little bit of a curveball to find at the time, 336 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: but uh, yeah, I kinda you gotta love his fleshy ladies. 337 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say they're very fleshy, and I 338 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: was also going to say that, I mean, I think 339 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: that's your The whole thing about your parents having that 340 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: book is a perfect snippet of like history and the 341 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: way that anyone views art and the nude woman that 342 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: like that's safe and that's okay because it's fine art, 343 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's like harmless almost. It's not 344 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: a magazine like an editorial, you know, spread in a 345 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: magazine or anything like that. But yeah, I mean Ruben's 346 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: Ruben's ladies definitely were moving away from that Greek quote 347 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: unquote ideal of like literally using half to achieve the 348 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: perfect proportion, both for male nudes and female nudes and statues. 349 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: Um his women and many other artists of his time 350 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: started showing women who, yeah, they have hips, or they 351 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: have bellies, or they have butts, they even have a 352 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: little bit of cellular life. I know, it makes me 353 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: think of us weekly and like showing you know, those 354 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: poor celebrities in their bathing suits and stars, they're just 355 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: like us. Yeah, rubens women, they're just like us, Thank you, 356 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: rubens Um. Around the same time, though, Bernini also is 357 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: using nudity in his sculpture, although genitals are often covered. 358 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: For instance, if you look at one of his sculptures, 359 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Apollo and Daphne, it's really interesting because you have Apollo 360 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: kind of chasing after Daphne, and in this context her 361 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: nudity is considered acceptable because going back to harketing back 362 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: to that classical Greek association of female nudity with vulnerability 363 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: and weakness. Clearly she is being like caught in one 364 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: of those vulnerable states and she's trying to escape Apollo. 365 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: She's turned away from him rather than toward him to 366 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: suggest willingness. But you have to keep in mind, I mean, 367 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: while all of this is going on through the centuries, 368 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church is definitely trying to put a stop 369 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: to all of this nudity, all of these naked ladies 370 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: and naked gents. You know, they're saying that it's so pagan. 371 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: This hearkens back to some like Greek pagan ritual and 372 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: we hate it. And can't you just like put a 373 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: T shirt on her, you know, or like the sixteenth 374 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: century equivalent of a T shirt. But anyway, we have 375 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: so many more great pieces of art to talk about, 376 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: and so much more historical context to get into. We 377 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break, so welcome back 378 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: to the stuff Mom never told you Art History Museum, 379 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: which really only contains trying to count up the number 380 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: of pieces where we're talking about. It's a small collection 381 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: important and we wanted to kick off this half of 382 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: the podcast with my favorite historical anecdote that we ran 383 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: across in this female nude research, and it has to 384 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: do with Diego Valesquez's rokeby Venus, which is I mean, 385 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: there there's a lot to talk about with this portrait 386 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: because we have it's thought of as one of the 387 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: most famous buttocks is of all time. But yes, beautiful, 388 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: she's got a great butt. So you've got this slender 389 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: but curvy woman lying up. She's facing away from the viewer, 390 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: so you just see her back. She's looking into a 391 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: mirror that's being held up by a chevy little cupid. 392 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: But she's she is looking into that mirror. Is it 393 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: at you? Is it at her? Is she contemplating her nudity? 394 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: Is she contemplating how vulnerable she is? Or is she 395 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: just admiring herself? Who knows? Who knows? So many layers 396 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: going on here. So Alaska has completed this work in 397 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: the mid seventeenth century. And fast forward to nineteen fourteen. 398 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: And I know I'm jumping out of our timeline for 399 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: a moment, but it's worth it for this story. So 400 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: fast forward to nineteen fourteen in England. This painting is 401 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: hanging in the National Gallery and a suffragette by the 402 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: name Mary Richardson has had enough of the rogue by 403 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: Venus and she walks in and slices it at least 404 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: five times with a meat cutter. What was going on, Caroline, Well, 405 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: she was she was really upset about how Emmeline Pankhurst 406 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: had been treated during her arrest, and she was disgusted 407 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: not only with that, but also the idea of men 408 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: ogling this naked woman and her fabulous milky skin in 409 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: her butt. She was like, no, this naked lady is 410 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: not gonna be around anymore. You're not gonna be staring 411 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: at this naked woman and you know, getting all excited 412 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: and twitter painted and also free free am align, free MLN. 413 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: And so she The media though nicknames her as a 414 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: result of this slasher Mary, which really makes her sound 415 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: like a serial killer. But she was just a rugby 416 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: venus killer. Although the painting was restored, even though you 417 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: can if you google image this, you can see images 418 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: of it with the slashes and it. She really went 419 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: for it. I think my first reaction to hear that 420 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: story was like one of horror that that you would 421 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: slash any piece of art, I mean, no matter what 422 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: the context is or whatever. But the more the more 423 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: I thought about it, the more I realized that, I 424 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: think that adds more value to it because now historical 425 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: piece of art that in and of itself is so precious, 426 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: now contains the scars of a really important period of history. Yeah. Well, 427 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: and also too in terms of what we're talking about 428 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the podcast, reading these works as 429 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: historical text and how it an her sex with the 430 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: actual real life women on the other side of these paintings, 431 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: and how they were dealing with their bodies in society 432 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: like it's it definitely speaks volumes. But back to our 433 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: art historical timeline, Let's get into the eighteenth century with Rococo. 434 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: Rococo gets a little playful. I kind of love Rococo. Yeah, 435 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: lots of swirls. Yeah, they're just like, hey, werero Coco, 436 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: you know something? I love it? Yeah? Yeah, So this 437 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: is the mid eighteenth century Rococo painter Frand Suis Boucher's 438 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: nude painting of Marie Louise oh Murphy. What's the name 439 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: Marie Louise o Murphy. Right, So, in the mid eighteenth 440 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: century Roccoco painter Frand Suis Boucher paints a nude of 441 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: Marie Louise o' murphy, the mistress of Louis the fift 442 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: and it is described as playfully erotic because she's not dainty. 443 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: She's not like daintily covering in a thing or she 444 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: is looking away from the viewer. But she girlfriend is 445 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: totally splayed out on her blanket. She's sprawled out, just 446 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: just hanging out on sort of a chaise lounge. I 447 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: like to imagine that she's watching The Real Housewives, like 448 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: over the edge of her of her sofa bed or 449 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: whatever this is. If you taw some stretchy pants on her. 450 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: She is neat on the weekends, no, I know, but 451 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: I mean she's she's definitely also fleshy as well. You know, 452 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: she is not what you would call like the Greek 453 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: ideal of the perfect nude virginal woman. I mean, this 454 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: woman is a mistress of a member of the royal family. Yeah, 455 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: I mean it kind of puts it all out there. 456 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: And it's also the exemplary of Rococo's playful eroticism, right 457 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: where they still got their hangups, but they're like, well, 458 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: but let's add some flourishes too. Yeah. I mean, look 459 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: at if you look at the fabrics that are in 460 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: this painting, I mean they're beautiful, They're so rich. I mean, 461 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: she's lying on it looks like pink and white fabric, 462 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: but it's just like the pink just pops. And there's 463 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: also some orange, kind of brownish rust colored fabric all 464 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: around her, and it's like you can almost feel the 465 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: texture of the fabric. I get lots of velvet associations 466 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: with it. But yeah, she said, why wouldn't you be 467 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: split out on that fabric? It looks great hanging out 468 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: just you know, Marie Louisa Murphy rubbing my rubbing my 469 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: bits on all of this pink silk. It's great. What 470 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: a life bringing a sandwich. Now, when we remove though 471 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: into the nineteenth century, the boundaries of the female nude 472 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: start to get tested. Some artists start to get a 473 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: little bit more experimental, but at the same time putting 474 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: a little broader context on this, the exclusion of women 475 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: from life drawing classes, academies, and art schools continues for 476 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: most of the century. So even though by this point 477 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: male artists have been around for so long, they're like, 478 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: we've painted so many female nudes. We're going to start 479 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: to get a little more experimental, especially envelope, and women 480 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: are like, can we just get into one of those 481 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: life drawing classes. I mean, I'm fine with my watercolors 482 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: over here, but I wouldn't well in terms of testing 483 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: those boundaries and getting more experimental. We see Mayonnaise Infamous 484 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: Olympia in eighteen sixty three, and what is so interesting 485 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: about this painting, which features a woman positioned almost exactly 486 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 1: like Titian's Venus of Urbino. She's covering well, she's kind 487 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: of got her legs crossed, but so she has her 488 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: hands sort of across her lap, but I mean, you 489 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: can see her breath, she's not covering it up, and 490 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: she's looking directly at the viewer with a maid or 491 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: some sort of servant next to her um. But yeah, 492 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: she's definingly looking at the audience, which adds to the 493 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: fact that man a definitely use nudity in this picture 494 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: to shock rather than to idealize, because this woman, the 495 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: subject of this painting was a famous prostitute, and a 496 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: lot of the people who came through the gallery and 497 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: saw this might have recognized her. Hello, Olympia, I just 498 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: saw her. Hello, I owe you some money. Now. On 499 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: the flip side of that, though, Eugene Delacroix, Liberty leading 500 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: the People uses female nudity in a different sense. It's 501 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: not so much to shock and titilate. It echoes classical 502 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: Greek nude motifs, with Lady Liberty showing her breast, exposing 503 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: her breast to symbolize revolution and liberty. It's depicting the 504 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: French Revolution. She's holding up the French flag and she 505 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: is leading the charge with all of these men behind her. 506 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: So that's a totally different kind of context to see. 507 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: So talking about the kinds of experimentation going on, Yeah, 508 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: so much symbolism because she's right in the middle of 509 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: this smoky, bloody, dirty battle scene, but she herself is 510 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: still very pale, And yeah, there's a suppose breasts are 511 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: such a such a symbol. It's not just yeah, like 512 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: you said, it's not just to titillate. It's to show. 513 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: This is harkening back to those Greek ideals of democracy. 514 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: It also reminds me too of Amazonians, where their whole 515 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: thing was going into battle with with the exposed breast singular. 516 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: You show those men, that's right. Um. This is also 517 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: though the century where we start to see more depictions 518 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: of female nudes as a dangerous women. Lots of eves 519 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: Delilah's salamis popping up, um. One example is the Edvard 520 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: moon painting Jealousy Too, where you have this eve like 521 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: figure who is sort of halfway nude in the background, 522 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: reaching up to pluck what looks to be an apple. 523 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: Standing next to a man in the foreground. You have 524 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: a guy who looks really bummed out. It's a creepy painting. Yeah, 525 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: he's like, I should have known better than to try 526 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: us that Eve. She will lead that other guy astray 527 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: as well. But again, if we look at her, if 528 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: we look at all of these venuses, what what what 529 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: is missing aside from any skin color but white, what 530 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: is missing, Caroline, We're missing some body hair, specifically pubic hair. 531 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: There is no body hair. Yeah, and oh my god, 532 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: this I mean we could have done an episode purely 533 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: on just pubic hair, or the lack thereof in classical 534 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: and neo classical art fascinating. I mean, to be fair, 535 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: when you look at male nudes, there's not a ton 536 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: of pubic hair, but there's at least the suggestion, whereas 537 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to the women, it really looks like 538 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: a Barbie doll in that sense. Yeah, a lot of 539 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: that goes back to that Bonfonte paper about the ideal 540 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: image of the of the human form and where that 541 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: came from, and the fact that you know, the ideal 542 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: male form is the buff athlete, but the ideal female 543 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: form or the even the ideal idea of a female 544 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: human is one who is virginal, pure, very young. So 545 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: that's why a lot of the time you saw Greek 546 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: statues of men, even though they're buff and they're like 547 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be the ideal, they have smaller penises because 548 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: that meant youth. Younger men have smaller penises. And I 549 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: know it's getting sort of sort of iffy here, but 550 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: stick with me. And it was the same for the 551 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: female figure. A lot of times she would have smaller 552 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: breasts to signify that she's younger and what went along 553 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: with that is a lack of body hair. And so 554 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: what are all of these images that we're talking about 555 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: based on classical Greek art? Yeah, yeah, and this was 556 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: something that was discussed in a chapter ye read in 557 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: Modern Art, a critical introduction, because yeah, we read textbooks 558 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: sometimes on the podcast. Um, there's this whole artistic distinction too, 559 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: between being new and naked, because it's really important that 560 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: these women, in order to be appreciated and almost exalted 561 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: in an artistic sense, to be these romantic muses, they 562 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: were nude because to be naked would be to have 563 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: body hair, would be to show pubic hair, and just 564 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: really what our bodies look like when we are actually naked. 565 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: But the nude is something more elevated. It's it's airbrushed 566 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Yeah, and of course we 567 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: have to mention the story of the art critic who 568 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: was terrified by pubic hair. Yeah, and this this is 569 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: an alleged story that circulates a lot, so it's grain 570 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: of salt, but it's fantastic regardless. Yeah, So there's this 571 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: story about Victorian era art critic John Rushkin, who you know, 572 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: he was super familiar with hairless nudes. In the art gallery. 573 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: But when he went home with his wife on their 574 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: wedding night, he supposed they refused to consummate the relationship 575 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: because he was shocked. Shocked, I tell you to see 576 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: her pubic hair. But the happy ending to that is 577 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: that apparently Ruskin's wife was like, okay, I'll see you later. 578 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: That's not okay, And then she married remarried another guy 579 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: who I think was aware that pubic hair existed. And 580 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that ties in to a lot 581 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: of the attitude about pubic hair, which is that and 582 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: and the nude versus the naked thing or the neked 583 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: thing for people whoever read Lewis Grizzard. But um, somebody 584 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: with body hair, male or female, is somebody who's like 585 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: a real, real human, fleshy person that you might have 586 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: sex with or who might be having sex with someone else. 587 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: But the marble, cold, stark, white nude is something that 588 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: is it's perfect and precious and pure. Yeah, but it's 589 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: it's notable too that with those classical female nudes, yes 590 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: they're all bald, but sometimes early sketches of them might 591 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: contain hints of pubic hair, so they just kind of 592 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: gradually edited it out um and early modern artists also 593 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 1: kept with that convention or used either a woman's hand 594 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: or the angle to conceal where pubic hair would be. 595 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: So that's why you always see these venuses throughout the 596 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: centuries in repose, but with usually like their left hand 597 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: just conveniently covering up their well but which I mean, 598 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: to be fair, that is a natural way that all 599 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: women lay on a chaise lounge. You automatically put one hand, 600 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: whether your clothes or not, over you just have to 601 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: go there. It's just the hand. It just it just 602 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: seeks it out like a missile. I mean, it's warm. Um. Well, 603 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: something else they got people warm and hot and bothered 604 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: was Francisco Goya's eighteen hundred painting Lamya dan Nuda, which 605 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: is one of the first paintings to intentionally show lady 606 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: pubic hair. Yeah, and here's the thing. It showed just 607 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: a hint, just the tiniest, tiniest bit of pubic hair. 608 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: And she I mean, also, let's talk about her gaze. 609 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: She's laying back, her hands are behind her head, and 610 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: she is looking directly at the viewer. Um. And the 611 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: addition of a little bit of pubic hair made it 612 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: rather scandal us, to the point that when it was 613 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: owned by the Spanish Prime Minister, it was kept in 614 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: a private room. You wouldn't put out something like that 615 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: in your drawling room where other people might come and 616 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: be like, whoa, oh goodness, who was that prostitute on 617 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: the wall? I know? And it's it's funny though, because 618 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: this is from She's posed in a way that we 619 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: would be very familiar with in like pin ups poses, 620 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: and the amount of pubic hair that has featured in 621 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: this painting is so minimal. It's it's almost as minimal 622 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: as Maria Bellows in that movie that almost received an 623 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: n C seventeen rating. Remember she it almost received an 624 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: n C seventeen rating until they cut the scene that 625 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: had her little landing strip and suddenly it was fine. 626 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: It got an R rating. But again, like it's just 627 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: helpful to point out that people have and will always 628 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: be scared of ladies body hair, but it's also that 629 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: triple threat almost literally of pubic hair, the direct gaze 630 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: and also a more inviting kind of pose. She is 631 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: rather open with her her hands behind her head like that, 632 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: but that is absolutely nothing compared to what French artists 633 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: Gustave Courbet painted on commission in eighteen sixties six and 634 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: it's a painting called The Origin of the World. And 635 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 1: it is unlike anything we have seen up to this 636 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: point because it is a full on close up of 637 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: a woman vulva yea with pubic hair, with ample puper 638 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: butt crack. I mean, it's basically she's lying down with 639 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: her legs spread and you, your view as the viewer, 640 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: is straight on. Yeah, and it's really interesting that the 641 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 1: painting as it is, as it's known now is headless, legless. 642 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: It's really just a close up of her mid section 643 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: and her volva. But apparently it's only part of a 644 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: full nude that he painted. And then some art historians 645 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: think that the guy who commissioned the painting, who's really 646 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: into erotic art, chopped out everything else and just blamo 647 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: made it what it is today. It's a nice piece 648 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: to hang above the fireplace. Yeah, it's really homye you know, 649 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: it is, yeah, the Origin of the World. But it 650 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,800 Speaker 1: was so surprising, like, especially as we were researching this 651 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: and kind of walking through this timeline of like okay o, 652 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: the demure nude after demure nude and then oh wow, 653 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 1: even though the image itself considering if you have seen 654 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: it a naked female body, it's not all like, it's 655 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: not shocking, but in the context female nudes, it is. Yeah, 656 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: it's very shy because it's just it's so real, like 657 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: that got real. Yeah, it got real, photo realistic, photo realistic. Yeah. 658 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen seventeen, police closed a Paris exhibition 659 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: of Madigliani's paintings because again they revealed pubic hair. It 660 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: is a signifier of sex, and thus it is associated with, 661 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: like we've said, prostitutes and pornography. Yeah. And even again 662 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: though too, with Madigliani's paintings, there is very little pubic 663 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: hair shown and it's really not even that graphic. Like 664 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: his style is not realistic at all. But these women are, 665 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: they're looking at you, their hands are above their heads. Also, 666 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: this one in front of us has a little bit 667 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 1: of armpit hair as well. She does she does even more. 668 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: That's the most body hair we've seen so far. She's 669 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: also orange. She is orange, which is sort of a 670 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: naked neked and or neked and orange. Uh. Yeah, the 671 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: tanning went awry that day. She stayed in a little 672 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: too long. Um. The art world's discomfort, though with female 673 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: pubic hair is still palpable, which is kind of wild 674 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: to consider. In two thousand and fourteen, for instance, artist 675 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: Lena McCall's portrait of Ms. Ruby May was removed from 676 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: the Society of Women Artists Annual exhibition because it was 677 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: deemed pornographic and unfit for quote children and vulnerable adults 678 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: vulnerable to what pubic hair? I guess, yeah, I mean 679 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 1: the painting was this woman, Um, basically she's she's fully clothed, 680 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: but she has her pants and zipped and sort of 681 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: pulled down a little bit so that you can see 682 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: pubic hair. And she's looking right at you. She's got 683 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: an eyebrow cocked and I think she's smoking a piper 684 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: a cigarette or something. But yeah, again, the combination of 685 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: a woman with agency seemingly looking right at you being like, 686 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: what here I am wearing my little suit with my 687 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: pube showing, and that kind of outrage though happening exactly 688 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: a century after Slasher Mary is cutting up the ropeby 689 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: Venus in the National Gallery is and it's astounding. And 690 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: in addition to this mystery of the missing pubic hair, 691 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: one other glaring similarity with all of these female nudes 692 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: that we've talked about is how they are all white. 693 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: When it comes to female nudes in Western art, you 694 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: rarely see women of color, except for instance, in the 695 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: case of Manai's Olympia, there is a woman of color, 696 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: but she is in the background and clothed and is 697 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: obviously uh made or a servant of some sort. Right. Yeah. 698 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: We read a paper called a Pedagogy of the Black 699 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: Female Body by ao A Colie, and she talks a 700 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: lot about how and why the black female body is 701 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: missing from art, and it's really sort of a complicated, 702 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 1: multilayered point that she brings up about slavery and about 703 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: the way that African women's bodies were displayed, and how 704 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: post colonial era, post slavery, there was an effort to 705 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: combat that image of the hyper sexual black woman, and 706 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: so her figure was covered up. But then there's the 707 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: question of, well, why are we covering this woman up? 708 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,720 Speaker 1: This you know, hypothetical woman are subject of a painting 709 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: up when she could be the subject of a beautiful 710 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: painting or sculpture just like anyone else. Yeah, And it's 711 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,919 Speaker 1: for that reason that she writes, quote, the female nude 712 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: has not been an ideologically correct artistic pursuit for African 713 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: American artists. And it's also hearkens a lot to our 714 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: podcast on Women's Butts and uh star Key Bartman a 715 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: k A. HoTT and taught Venus who is the primary 716 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: example of that kind of scientific pornography really that was 717 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: happening at the time, of putting African women on display 718 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 1: to naked, are almost naked, to ogle their bodies in 719 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: that kind of way. And then on top of that, 720 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: of course, like you said, this hyper sexualization that was 721 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: going on. And this was something also explored in the 722 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: book Skin Deep, Spirit Strong, The Black Female Body in 723 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: American Culture, which discusses how art historian Judith Wilson in 724 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: the early nineties looked for and found zero black female 725 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: nudes painted by African American artists in the nineteenth century, 726 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: again because the subject was verboten. And then further, this 727 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,280 Speaker 1: project called the Image of the Black Woman in Western 728 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: Art research identified only one full nude of an African 729 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,760 Speaker 1: American woman from the nineteenth century and it was created 730 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,919 Speaker 1: though by a visiting Swiss artist. And then the author 731 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: goes on to talk about how there are beyond that 732 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: very few nineteenth and early twentieth century nudes of black women. 733 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 1: It's just, I mean, it really just doesn't exist in 734 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, right, because, as we've touched on 735 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: throughout this episode, what we see on on the canvas 736 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,439 Speaker 1: or in marble is typically an artists or a group 737 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,240 Speaker 1: of artists concept of what ideal feminine beauty or ideal 738 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: male beauty is, and frequently black or African American subjects 739 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: were completely left out of that because black men and 740 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: women in our country were definitely thought to be dangerous 741 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: or hyper sexual wherea, and so they therefore could not 742 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: fit this sort of pure virginal idea of what femininity 743 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: should be. Well, and it seems like we we end 744 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: up with then this hierarchy of almost morality and like 745 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,839 Speaker 1: what is deemed beautiful in art, where at the top 746 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: you have these idealized, classical, young, virginal, hairless female nudes, 747 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 1: and then that image of the more mature with hair prostitute, 748 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: usually white, and then women of color. So, I mean, 749 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: so you start to see all of these kinds of 750 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,439 Speaker 1: patterns emerging, which leads us to these questions of well, 751 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: what is all of us, all of this telling us 752 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,919 Speaker 1: what are we supposed to think? Now when we walk 753 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: through the met, say and see you know that of 754 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: all those female nudes going on, and especially considering the fact, yes, 755 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: they're painted almost exclusively by male artists, and you don't 756 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: see that reciprocal relationship with Oh well, we also have 757 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: this huge body of uh no put intended of male 758 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:56,359 Speaker 1: nudes that are painted by female artists because those guys 759 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 1: were their muses. Yeah. Well, because women, like you said, 760 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: we're excluded it from those schools, from those academies. It's 761 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,280 Speaker 1: not like they were out there in the sixteenth century 762 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: or you know, seventeenth century getting a commission because that 763 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:12,400 Speaker 1: was unfeminine and inappropriate. Um So, a lot of female artists, 764 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: and there there were female artists, a lot of them 765 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: would never ever be able to achieve the standing that 766 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,879 Speaker 1: some of these men did with their nudes. And it's 767 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,360 Speaker 1: interesting too to see how with more contemporary female artists 768 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: there's not so much an interest in like, well, let's 769 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,439 Speaker 1: painting a lot of penises, will show them, but rather 770 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,840 Speaker 1: read an intent to reclaim the female nude. Yeah, and 771 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: I wonder yes, and I and I think that, um 772 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:48,399 Speaker 1: seeing some contemporary nudes by women of women are fascinating 773 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: and they're definitely more on the Reuben and Rubens end 774 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,360 Speaker 1: of the spectrum than than not um. But I do 775 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: this does make me wonder about the context of that 776 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: that forever, the female nude has just equaled perfection, purity, 777 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: the man's ideal of what femininity is. So it's it's 778 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 1: interesting when you have women like those painting uh paintings 779 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 1: like Ruby may Um, what that means to them and 780 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: what they wanted to mean to their audience, because it 781 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: obviously means something different than the capitaline venus for instance. 782 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: Well that's something that contemporary artist Jenny Saville, whose body 783 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: of work has really focused on the female nude and 784 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,400 Speaker 1: sort of playing around with that and reclaiming it and 785 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: painting it in less flattering ways than you you might 786 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 1: see in classical art. Um. She has said, quote, there's 787 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: a thing about beauty. Beauty is always associated with the 788 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 1: male fantasy of what the female body is. I don't 789 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,959 Speaker 1: think there's anything wrong with beauty, it's just what women 790 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,719 Speaker 1: think is beautiful can be different. So it's interesting to 791 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 1: see how that how the nude, the female nude changes 792 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: when and the artist is also female again, so lovely 793 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: to get different people's perspectives into art and life. That's right. Diversity, 794 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: it is important. So now I want to hear listeners 795 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,840 Speaker 1: perspectives on these things. I have a feeling that we 796 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,240 Speaker 1: have some art history students listening, perhaps some practicing artists, 797 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,719 Speaker 1: maybe some painters. We would love to get some more 798 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: expert insight into this whole female nude thing. So let 799 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: us know all of all of your new thoughts. Mom 800 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 801 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast our 802 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,360 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 803 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Okay, I have a 804 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: letter here from Bethany about our director's episode. She says, 805 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,120 Speaker 1: I recently listened to your podcast about the first female directors, 806 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 1: and oh my gosh, was I inspired and a bit angered. 807 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 1: As a film student wanting to be a director, we're 808 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: required to take film history lessons. The three women you 809 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,719 Speaker 1: mentioned were never discussed in any of my classes, and 810 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 1: that really ticks me off. This truly is a man's industry, 811 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 1: and I, for one, and inspired by these three ladies 812 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 1: and others to change that. After I listened to the podcast, 813 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,800 Speaker 1: I immediately began searching YouTube for their works, especially Lows 814 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: Webber's Hypocrites. When I have viewed a number from each, 815 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: I'll definitely email back with my thoughts. However, for a 816 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: film that isn't necessarily directed by a female but stars 817 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 1: Gina Rowland and is phenomenal, please watch A Woman under 818 00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,399 Speaker 1: the Influence, directed by her husband John Cassavetti's and also 819 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,720 Speaker 1: starring Peter Folk. It's a great film. Thank you ladies 820 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: for doing this podcast and opening my eyes to how 821 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 1: much I didn't know about my career in terms of 822 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: being a woman, and who has paved the way for 823 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: me to have the opportunities I can. So thank you. 824 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,400 Speaker 1: Bethany Well, I'm gonna letter here from Samantha who was 825 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 1: inspired to write us after listening to our interview with 826 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,280 Speaker 1: Julie's seageal founder of Dear Kate, and also a listener 827 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: letter about um someone else who was doing the same 828 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: thing of going into a stem field and then turning 829 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: toward the apparel industry. And she writes here, I am 830 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: getting a science degree in textiles. We often overlook the 831 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,480 Speaker 1: science part of the garment and textile industry. A lot 832 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: of effort is put into keeping people comfortable and safe, 833 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 1: and there are laws to follow and tests that have 834 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,439 Speaker 1: to be done on almost every garment that you see. 835 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: There are acts in the US that states specifically what 836 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: and how textiles are labeled, and there are a lot 837 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 1: of specific regulations regarding flammability children's apparel, and even regulations 838 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: on how to label fibers that come from bamboo. Most 839 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 1: of these regulations have at least one test to prove 840 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,840 Speaker 1: that the textile falls within the acceptable limits, and this 841 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 1: must be done in an accredited lab. There's also a 842 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: ton of current research and development in medical textiles and 843 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: protective textiles. So with all these tests and all this 844 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,000 Speaker 1: research being done, it's surprising to me that these women 845 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,560 Speaker 1: feel weird going in to apparel. With the science background, 846 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: anyone can design a pair of panties or a shirt 847 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,680 Speaker 1: or address with a little bit of creativity and a pencil. 848 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: It takes an understanding of the science behind the scenes 849 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,760 Speaker 1: to understand the best fabric choice, how and why tests 850 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: are done, and to make educated decisions regarding things like 851 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 1: which die to use and which finish. I think having 852 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,520 Speaker 1: a background in science and an understanding of business gives 853 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,640 Speaker 1: you a leg up in the industry and will come 854 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,040 Speaker 1: in handy as you grow your business and encounter all 855 00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: these regulations being placed on the textile and apparel industry. 856 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: So thanks Samantha for highlighting this stem field that we 857 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,239 Speaker 1: might not often think of, and thanks to everybody else 858 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,399 Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff works 859 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and for links to 860 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 861 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with our sources. 862 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: So you can read more about female nudes, head on 863 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 1: over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for 864 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 865 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com