Speaker 1: One of the other things he did in that first
Speaker 1: date that was odd is he said to me I'd
Speaker 1: been researching widows. And my thought was, oh, he saw
Speaker 1: that about my profile. He's been going out to understand
Speaker 1: my particular issues. Now, looking back, I think it means
Speaker 1: something else, but I didn't know that at the time.
Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
Speaker 2: change everything. Carrie McAvoy is a clinical psychologist based in Michigan.
Speaker 1: They saw clients in private practice for nearly twenty years.
Speaker 1: What was exciting about working with clients was that I
Speaker 1: could see really dramatic shifts in a relatively short time
Speaker 1: when there was a lot of motive and effort, and
Speaker 1: to me, it felt like a sacred privilege to work
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: Even though she studies human behavior for a living, she
Speaker 2: found herself caught in a web of lies and manipulation.
Speaker 1: Everyone somehow assumes a psychologists are like above human, superhuman.
Speaker 1: We should know we should be excellent reads of people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm good reads of people, but when it comes to myself,
Speaker 1: I'm not always so good because then my personal perceptions
Speaker 1: get involved. Anyone can fall for something like this, you
Speaker 1: just haven't met the sophisticated enough predator.
Speaker 2: And when Carrie was at her most vulnerable, she met
Speaker 2: a predator who would derail her own life. Carrie grew
Speaker 2: up on a dairy farm in Michigan.
Speaker 1: I think it had an active herd of sixty eight cows,
Speaker 1: and we are expected to be a part of the
Speaker 1: milking process. So my three sisters and I went to
Speaker 1: work and start farming along with my dad.
Speaker 2: She was the oldest of her three sisters.
Speaker 1: We were supposed to be good girls.
Speaker 2: And out of the good girls.
Speaker 1: I was known as the best, the goodest, the one
Speaker 1: that did everything right, the teacher's favorite.
Speaker 2: On the outside, they were an idyllic American farming family.
Speaker 1: But there was abuse and neglect going on in the family.
Speaker 1: There was secrets that we were keeping.
Speaker 2: Carrie and her little sister were being abused by a
Speaker 2: family member.
Speaker 1: Her and I had shared a room and the abuse
Speaker 1: was going on in the room, and either it would
Speaker 1: be she was hurt or I was hurt.
Speaker 2: It was a trauma that shaped Carrie's worldview. She retreated
Speaker 2: into herself, and her safe space was school. She channeled
Speaker 2: all of her energy into becoming a straight A student.
Speaker 2: When she was fourteen, she read a magazine article about psychology.
Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, that's it. That's what I want to be.
Speaker 1: I want to be a psychologist. I really wanted to
Speaker 1: sort of decode a person.
Speaker 2: She knew it would take years of school to earn
Speaker 2: a PhD in psychology, and that became her singular goal.
Speaker 1: So I did colle in three years. I probably could
Speaker 1: have done it in two and a half years because
Speaker 1: I was moving so fast and getting credit so fast.
Speaker 1: Between my freshman and sophomore year, I worked up north
Speaker 1: at a touristtown in northern Michigan City, Mackinawe Island, and
Speaker 1: that's where I met Brad.
Speaker 2: She hadn't dated much before college. High school guys just
Speaker 2: didn't understand her, but Brad seemed different.
Speaker 1: He and I started talking, and sure enough we just clicked.
Speaker 1: By the end of the night, we were around a
Speaker 1: bonfire telling ghost stories and I was really tired, so
Speaker 1: I laid my head on his knee. He put his
Speaker 1: hand on my shoulder, and I felt like I came home.
Speaker 1: It was an amazing feeling.
Speaker 2: After that night, they were inseparable.
Speaker 1: He was really loyal. He was the kind of guy
Speaker 1: if he told you, I'm going to help you move,
Speaker 1: which he did do that. He would tell people, even
Speaker 1: people he didn't know very well, I'm going to help
Speaker 1: you move. If he woke up that with the stomach flu,
Speaker 1: he would still go to help you move, so you
Speaker 1: could just count on him. He was a man of
Speaker 1: his word.
Speaker 2: When she got into a PhD program in California, Brad
Speaker 2: went with her.
Speaker 1: Brad had a big belief in me, who used like
Speaker 1: a cheerleader champion of me. If I wanted to do something,
Speaker 1: he supported that.
Speaker 2: And in graduate school she needed his support.
Speaker 1: I would literally fall into bed at night almost in
Speaker 1: tears because I'd worked the whole day, get up do
Speaker 1: it again. While you're trying to get ready for exams
Speaker 1: and have papers written, and you have course reading lists
Speaker 1: that are impossible to get through. It was so hard,
Speaker 1: and Brad created space for that. He never once complained
Speaker 1: about my lack of availability. He just was super supportive.
Speaker 2: She earned her PhD in clinical psychology, and she got
Speaker 2: her first job in the field, working at a psychiatric hospital.
Speaker 1: I got to see the psychopathology class onto what did
Speaker 1: a borderline personality look like, what did bipolar disorder? What
Speaker 1: do the different subtypes of schizophrenia look like? What does
Speaker 1: it look like when someone has a psychotic break.
Speaker 2: She was getting a lot of experience, and in the meantime,
Speaker 2: she and Brad decided to start a family. Over the
Speaker 2: next few years, they had three sons, but pregnancy took
Speaker 2: a toll on her body, one that she was not expecting.
Speaker 1: I had a massive hair shed where I lost most
Speaker 1: of my hair from that pregnancy. It was a shock.
Speaker 1: So here I am weaning my two year old and
Speaker 1: my hair is falling out, which was devastating, just devastating.
Speaker 1: I mean, we literally evaluate women on the quality of
Speaker 1: their hair. For me to know this is not changeable,
Speaker 1: I'm not ever going to get this back. I'm going
Speaker 1: to have to face the world like this. It took
Speaker 1: me over ten years to deal with it.
Speaker 2: Even though she had wigs. The hair loss took away
Speaker 2: her self confidence and her sense of self.
Speaker 1: I became suicidal for a while, not actively, but just like,
Speaker 1: what's the point, you know? I felt trapped by it,
Speaker 1: struggled to go out into the public. I mean, it
Speaker 1: was bothering me enough that I had literal nightmares over
Speaker 1: being found out or having people discover this. I just
Speaker 1: felt terribly exposed.
Speaker 2: But Brad wasn't bothered by it at all. He and
Speaker 2: their three boys became her refuge.
Speaker 1: We got a little old camper up on northern Michigan
Speaker 1: and sat on the lake every summer, and it was fun.
Speaker 1: It was just a really really good period of life
Speaker 1: for us. Busy, but really good.
Speaker 2: Carrie built her own practice as a clinical psychologist and
Speaker 2: Brad worked as a civil engineer.
Speaker 1: The degree that we had this partnership really shined. We
Speaker 1: agreed on how we spent money. We were making good decisions,
Speaker 1: trying to pay off debt, get rid of my student loan,
Speaker 1: those types of things, get in a good financial position.
Speaker 2: Their priority was saving for an early retirement.
Speaker 1: Our plan was once the child's out of the home,
Speaker 1: he was going to quit working, when we were going
Speaker 1: to focus more on the last part of our lives.
Speaker 1: I thought we'd have a second honeymoon, and so that
Speaker 1: was our plan.
Speaker 2: When they were both fifty, they started working with an
Speaker 2: architect to design their dream home, the house they'd grow
Speaker 2: old in.
Speaker 1: And he and I spent enormous amount of time with
Speaker 1: an architect designing this really gorgeous farm style house with
Speaker 1: even part of it with a metal roof so I
Speaker 1: could listen to the rain.
Speaker 2: They were about to start construction when Brad got sick.
Speaker 1: Brad started vomiting just unexpectedly.
Speaker 2: At first, they didn't think much of it.
Speaker 1: He kept thinking he knew what it was, you know.
Speaker 1: He thought he had problems with milk, so he stopped
Speaker 1: drinking milk. And then he thought maybe he's gluten sensitive,
Speaker 1: so he started watching gluten.
Speaker 2: But the symptoms only got worse, so they decided to
Speaker 2: see a specialist.
Speaker 1: They said that we found a tumor, and I knew
Speaker 1: the news was bad while we were waiting for the
Speaker 1: biopsy to come back.
Speaker 2: It was a rare form of stomach cancer. Carrie immediately
Speaker 2: started researching, preparing a list of questions for the doctors.
Speaker 1: It was extremely pessimistic, like less than five percent make
Speaker 1: it five years, so this is terminal.
Speaker 2: But no one had said this to them yet, so
Speaker 2: she asked the doctor directly.
Speaker 1: I remember going in and sitting across from him in
Speaker 1: the desk, and I said, tell me the truth. Did
Speaker 1: you just tell me last night that Brad was dying?
Speaker 1: And he said yes. I collapsed and I started weeping,
Speaker 1: and then you know, we had this really practical talk
Speaker 1: about what does that mean. I said, so, if he
Speaker 1: does chemotherapy, how much time will he gain? He said
Speaker 1: he might live twelve months. And I said, if we
Speaker 1: don't do chemotherapy, how long will he live? And he
Speaker 1: said maybe six. So we walked out and he said,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing chemotherapy. It just doesn't make sense. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be sicker. So we then decided we're
Speaker 1: going to make the best of that time that we
Speaker 1: had left.
Speaker 2: They wanted to go on one last vacation together, just
Speaker 2: the two of them. They went to Jamaica, where they
Speaker 2: hired a driver to take them to the most beautiful
Speaker 2: beaches on the island.
Speaker 1: The chauffeur took us up up on a cliff and
Speaker 1: let us get out and walk up to the edge,
Speaker 1: and Brad stood there with me and he said, you
Speaker 1: know you could do this, don't you. You know you
Speaker 1: could travel, live abroad and start again.
Speaker 2: He wanted her to live life to the fullest after
Speaker 2: he was gone, to pursue her wildest dreams. That vacation
Speaker 2: in Jamaica would be one of their last good memories
Speaker 2: together before his cancer progressed.
Speaker 1: I stopped working and just focused on him, and he
Speaker 1: would say, the taxes are too high. They're too high.
Speaker 1: We can't afford the tat you'd like. In his stumbly way,
Speaker 1: he would say that, and it hit me. He's saying
Speaker 1: it's taxing me too much. This is costing me too much.
Speaker 1: And then I would look at him and I'd say,
Speaker 1: if this is Mount Everest, I would carry you up
Speaker 1: to the top on my back. I can do this.
Speaker 1: I have it in me to do this, and he'd say, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: I needed quiet. Back down again.
Speaker 2: Five and a half months after the diagnosis, Brad died
Speaker 2: at home with Carrie by his side.
Speaker 1: A former client of mine sent me a note of
Speaker 1: a welch word that's hereth I'd never heard of it before,
Speaker 1: and it stands for a home that's lost, that can
Speaker 1: never be found again, a homesickness of a home that
Speaker 1: you're looking for that you can't find. And that's what
Speaker 1: it felt like. I cried every single day. I didn't
Speaker 1: know if I would survive the pain. My chest ached,
Speaker 1: my heart ached.
Speaker 2: Her youngest son was a senior in high school, and
Speaker 2: that Christmas they were lost without Brad.
Speaker 1: I didn't know this until we lost him. He was
Speaker 1: the glue that held us together. We had so little
Speaker 1: energy that Christmas we basically handed each other the boxes
Speaker 1: that they came in from. What of her company we
Speaker 1: bought it from. We couldn't even wrap it. There's just
Speaker 1: no energy to do that.
Speaker 2: Before he got sick, the couple had made smart financial
Speaker 2: decisions to protect their future.
Speaker 1: Between Brad's pension retirement as well as the life insurance policy.
Speaker 1: I was sacked comfortably for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: I would never have to work again.
Speaker 2: But the money was little comfort. She would trade it
Speaker 2: all just to have Brad back.
Speaker 1: How do you find that again in your fifties and
Speaker 1: how do you replace this life that you build? I
Speaker 1: wanted it back, That's what I wanted. I want her
Speaker 1: life that I had back.
Speaker 2: So in her grief, Carrie made a snap decision.
Speaker 1: And I'm ashamed of it, honestly, but I wanted out
Speaker 1: of this pain so bad. I started dating really fast,
Speaker 1: thinking that maybe I could just find someone and put
Speaker 1: that person in the slot and this would fix all
Speaker 1: of this.
Speaker 2: After Carrie McAvoy's husband passed away, she retired early from
Speaker 2: her clinical psychology practice. Without him, she felt lost and
Speaker 2: wanted desperately to find love again.
Speaker 1: It was maybe four to five months after Brad passed away.
Speaker 1: I had my date.
Speaker 2: Her first date was with another widower, someone who would
Speaker 2: understand what she'd been through.
Speaker 1: It was a weird date because we just talked about
Speaker 1: how painful it was being widowed and how much that
Speaker 1: person had left a hole in her life. It was sweet.
Speaker 1: I appreciate meeting him, but it was just sort of like,
Speaker 1: I get your pain, but we're not really a match,
Speaker 1: but thank you for that. It went out with a
Speaker 1: few other men, and then it started taking it more seriously,
Speaker 1: you know, once I got my feet underneath me and
Speaker 1: figured out what this was like.
Speaker 2: It was a good distraction. Carrie threw herself into a
Speaker 2: series of first dates.
Speaker 1: And so much so that I was getting exhausted. I
Speaker 1: thought it would be simple to find somebody. I also
Speaker 1: thought it would be easier that there'd be more compatibility
Speaker 1: with more people.
Speaker 2: Brad was always her biggest supporter, not just in her
Speaker 2: career but emotionally, and without him, her self esteem faltered.
Speaker 1: I'm not a thin woman, I'm highly educated. I actually
Speaker 1: went out with somebody from my practice for dinner, and
Speaker 1: she said, you're going to have a hard time finding
Speaker 1: love again. You're too smart, you're too educated, and you're
Speaker 1: too old, and I ad it in my head and
Speaker 1: I'm too fat.
Speaker 2: Dating again was more difficult than she anticipated. It was
Speaker 2: becoming too much.
Speaker 1: I started to become really discouraged, so I decided I
Speaker 1: needed to take a break and that I was going
Speaker 1: to close my dating apps and just stop.
Speaker 2: But her dating app subscription had just renewed for another
Speaker 2: three months and she couldn't get a refund, so she
Speaker 2: took it as a sign.
Speaker 1: So it was literally within a few days of that
Speaker 1: that a handsome man's profile passed my preview.
Speaker 2: His name was Caesar. In his profile picture, he's standing
Speaker 2: at the top of the Sears Tower.
Speaker 1: It felt like I was seeing a GQ shoot. He's
Speaker 1: wearing a knit shirt with slacks. It's almost like he's
Speaker 1: missing the coat slung over his shoulder. My first thought
Speaker 1: of Caesar was he's really good looking, and he had
Speaker 1: a look on his face like I can't wait to
Speaker 1: meet you.
Speaker 2: He even listed his deal breakers right on his profile.
Speaker 1: No tattoos, no piercings, besides earrings, no atheists and no
Speaker 1: pet owners. And they even wrote after going out with
Speaker 1: a few dates and finding out there's these big discrepancies,
Speaker 1: I thought it would be more helpful if I just
Speaker 1: come out and say these are my deal breakers. A
Speaker 1: little arrogant, but on the other hand, at least he
Speaker 1: was more upfront than those who say I have a
Speaker 1: super fit lifestyle and want someone who values that, which
Speaker 1: is code for I want a slim woman.
Speaker 2: She was amused and attracted to his profile, but ultimately
Speaker 2: she decided.
Speaker 1: This is the person who's out of my league. I
Speaker 1: felt like I was a solid six next to this nine,
Speaker 1: and I just like passed on by. I didn't swipe left,
Speaker 1: I just didn't do anything with the profile. But the
Speaker 1: next day, this was one of those apps ate lunch
Speaker 1: who view who viewed your profile, and it said he
Speaker 1: looked and I thought, you know what, why not reach
Speaker 1: out and say something? So I just said, what a
Speaker 1: nice profile. Seems like you and I had some things
Speaker 1: in common.
Speaker 2: They both lived in the Midwest a few hours apart,
Speaker 2: and both had adult children, so she asked.
Speaker 1: Him, would you like to see if we have more
Speaker 1: in common? And he wrote back and he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be nice. That's how our connection started.
Speaker 2: They started talking every day.
Speaker 1: After a few weeks. It's going great and it's sweet.
Speaker 1: He and I both agreed it was time to meet.
Speaker 1: We decide that we're going to go out to Lake
Speaker 1: Michigan for the day and just kind of enjoy the beach.
Speaker 1: I'll pack a picnic for the two of us that Sunday.
Speaker 2: They met in person for the first time. He looked
Speaker 2: just like his photos, handsome, kind eyes, huge smile. She
Speaker 2: was surprised by his enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: He's a very loud person, very charismatic, dynamic person. The
Speaker 1: introvert to me was like, that's a lot. I felt overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: My first inclination was like ooh ooh. I mean he's
Speaker 1: gesturing and his voice is booming. Brad, by the way,
Speaker 1: it was extremely quiet. Our first data had to say,
Speaker 1: if you don't start talking, this relationship is going to
Speaker 1: go nowhere. So picture of the differences between that.
Speaker 2: He was a gentleman. He wanted to unload all the
Speaker 2: picnic supplies she brought.
Speaker 1: He swings something away from me to not let me help. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's your turn to be taken care of. It's your turn. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I walked down to the edge of the water
Speaker 1: with him. We find a spot and we sit there
Speaker 1: and we just start to talk.
Speaker 2: And one of the first things he wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about was what it was like to be a widow.
Speaker 1: He said, I'd been researching widows, and my thought was, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is something I would do. I would research widows
Speaker 1: to understand my partner. I thought, Oh, he saw that
Speaker 1: about my profile. He's been going out to understand my
Speaker 1: particular issues.
Speaker 2: Just like his dating profile suggested. He was direct. He
Speaker 2: didn't want to waste their time, so he said there
Speaker 2: were a few things she should know right up front.
Speaker 1: I need to let you know that I've been married
Speaker 1: more than once, and I want to do this differently.
Speaker 1: I want a forever relationship.
Speaker 2: They talked about how and why his earlier marriages failed.
Speaker 2: His explanations weren't very in depth, but they all seemed
Speaker 2: reasonable enough.
Speaker 1: And then he stopped and he said, I came from
Speaker 1: a really rough home. And he began to describe some
Speaker 1: of the dynamics that was happening in the house.
Speaker 2: He began divulging dark details about his childhood, stories of
Speaker 2: family secrets and abuse, and.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is a first date. I wouldn't get
Speaker 1: into this with another person. This is kind of uncomfortable history.
Speaker 1: And I end up thinking, so how much of my
Speaker 1: history should I be saying? Because he's exposed so much
Speaker 1: of himself, will he think I'm being secretive if I
Speaker 1: don't share that back?
Speaker 2: So instead she turned to the picnic she packed, and
Speaker 2: to her surprise.
Speaker 1: I forgot all the cold items in the refrigerator. So
Speaker 1: here I have this picnic, no meat, no tomatoes, just
Speaker 1: has bread, lettuce, chips, and fruit. You know, everything else
Speaker 1: is missing.
Speaker 2: So much further picnic lunch because I.
Speaker 1: Was feeling one of those moments like oh no, I
Speaker 1: blew this date. And He's like, no, no, this is
Speaker 1: no big deal. And then he suggested at the end,
Speaker 1: let's go out to eat and see a movie because
Speaker 1: we were starving by that point.
Speaker 2: She liked that he was flexible, he was going with
Speaker 2: the flow. After dinner and a movie, he handed her
Speaker 2: a gift. It was a dozen wild rose blossoms without stems.
Speaker 1: He said, now you can kick them home and dry
Speaker 1: them and create some so we have a memory of
Speaker 1: our first date together. So it was just this really romantic,
Speaker 1: over the top sort of experience that was fabulous.
Speaker 2: And with that he kissed me on the.
Speaker 1: Cheek and said, you know, I hope you sleep well.
Speaker 1: It's so nice to meet you, and then left.
Speaker 2: They immediately started making plans for another date.
Speaker 1: He was really good at planning things. He took me
Speaker 1: to Mall America, went through the aquarium, we did like
Speaker 1: a little amusement park ride, and he took me to
Speaker 1: one of his favorite restaurants. So every weekend felt planned.
Speaker 1: Another weekend. He took me to this National park, the Waterfalls,
Speaker 1: to show me one of his favorite places, and it
Speaker 1: just was romantic.
Speaker 2: As the dates went on, it was clear there was
Speaker 2: an elephant in the room, the fact that Carrie didn't work.
Speaker 1: He started to like, do you have like financial issues?
Speaker 1: Are you in trouble? Do you need a loan? Are
Speaker 1: you all right? I said no, no, I'm okay. Actually
Speaker 1: the opposite is true. I don't need to work. I
Speaker 1: came into a lot of money when Brad died.
Speaker 2: And then without thinking, she said the number.
Speaker 1: And the minute I did that, I had this deep
Speaker 1: shame flood over me. It's like you've made a really
Speaker 1: grave error here, You've divulged something super private. Now You'll
Speaker 1: never know why this person's in a relationship with you.
Speaker 1: Is it for the money or is it for you?
Speaker 2: She watched him to see if you'd change, if you'd
Speaker 2: suddenly become overly affectionate or expect her to start paying
Speaker 2: for more, And he didn't. You see the same easygoing guy.
Speaker 2: But on some level she knew she needed to be
Speaker 2: more cautious. Little things started worrying her.
Speaker 1: He wasn't a big caller, so we weren't having constant
Speaker 1: phone calls. They were rare, and we might have a
Speaker 1: fantastic phone call, but then I might not hear from
Speaker 1: him again. I just felt he was hard to reach.
Speaker 1: Even if I texted him. He wasn't really quick to
Speaker 1: get back to me.
Speaker 2: They lived a few hours apart, so when she couldn't
Speaker 2: reach him for a couple of days, her mind would race.
Speaker 1: It was bothering me so bad that I reached out
Speaker 1: to a private investigator that i'd hired before, a professional PI.
Speaker 1: I contacted him and said, I'm dating someone, but I
Speaker 1: have a question. Is he really divorced?
Speaker 2: The PI ran a background check and he found that
Speaker 2: Caesar was single, living alone. The records also pulled up
Speaker 2: an old dui and a string of short lived jobs.
Speaker 2: Other than that, nothing particularly alarming.
Speaker 1: So I'm seeing him shortly after that, and my big
Speaker 1: conundrum is do I tell him I did this because
Speaker 1: I just don't like secrets. I just hate them. I
Speaker 1: just feel like they fester and ruin relationships for you
Speaker 1: to have something that you know on somebody else. And
Speaker 1: so I said to him, I've done a background check
Speaker 1: on you, and I'll never forget. He got really still
Speaker 1: like frozen, and I thought, oh no, this is going
Speaker 1: to go really bad. Said, so what did you learn?
Speaker 1: And I started listing, You've had a lot of jobs,
Speaker 1: you've moved quite a bit, and you have a dui.
Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, I did have a dui and
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and yeah, I have made some
Speaker 1: job changes in trying to find the right job. But
Speaker 1: I could tell the tension. You could cut it with
Speaker 1: a knife. It was so tense. And then he called
Speaker 1: me over to sit beside me, and he started saying,
Speaker 1: next time you have these types of doubts, come to me. First,
Speaker 1: I started crying and he pugged me and he said
Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, but I want you to
Speaker 1: come to me first, she.
Speaker 2: Was immediately ashamed that she'd gone behind his back.
Speaker 1: We got through it, and I really thought that was
Speaker 1: sweet in that I was shocked that he wasn't more angry.
Speaker 2: A few weeks later, he asked her to go steady.
Speaker 2: That was his word.
Speaker 1: He asked me in September, can we go study? And
Speaker 1: I said yeah. I thought that was really sweet and
Speaker 1: kind of reminiscent of the past.
Speaker 2: So they both deleted their online dating profiles and started
Speaker 2: seeing each other exclusively. He pushed her to try new thing.
Speaker 1: He took me salsa dancing, actually taught me how to
Speaker 1: salsa dance, and there was a childishness to him, like
Speaker 1: a playfulness. His eyes would sparkle, and he'd be so
Speaker 1: excited when we would do the salsa dancing as I'm
Speaker 1: trying to struggle with the steps at this big restaurant
Speaker 1: with everybody learning, and they're all thwirling around us, And
Speaker 1: he just made me feel like I was the most
Speaker 1: beautiful woman in the world.
Speaker 2: One weekend, she'd traveled to him, and the next he'd
Speaker 2: traveled to.
Speaker 1: Her, and it started to feel like life in between
Speaker 1: these dates were really dull and flat, like I was
Speaker 1: surviving and then when I was with Caesar, it felt
Speaker 1: like life became colorful and just really rich.
Speaker 2: Carrie started daydreaming about starting fresh and moving somewhere closer
Speaker 2: to Caesar, but her twenty year old son was still
Speaker 2: living at home.
Speaker 1: I called my middle son, who had been living with me,
Speaker 1: and I said, you know, I'm thinking of moving. What
Speaker 1: do you think if we were to move? You and
Speaker 1: I removed together, and he said, Mom, I'm really depressed.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing well. It sounds great, let's move.
Speaker 2: She runed out her place and they made the move.
Speaker 1: Caesar had had this policy, you don't get to see
Speaker 1: the kids until we're engaged.
Speaker 2: But once she moved closer, they decided to break that rule.
Speaker 2: Their first week in town, Caesar took her and her
Speaker 2: son out to dinner.
Speaker 1: And then Caesar just became part of our life. You know.
Speaker 1: He would come over after work and hang out with
Speaker 1: the two of us, got to know the two of us,
Speaker 1: and it felt good. It felt like a new normal.
Speaker 1: Caesar would even invite me up for lunch in the
Speaker 1: middle of his day. Brad would never have done that,
Speaker 1: which I even thought, Wow, he's stopping his day. And
Speaker 1: then he comes over at night. Hangs out and watch
Speaker 1: TV till he falls asleep, and then he heads home.
Speaker 1: It just really felt great.
Speaker 2: Caesar grew up in Mexico and shared his culture with Carrie.
Speaker 1: Teaching me how to buy trick tea is, teaching me
Speaker 1: even what carnita is and how much fat do you
Speaker 1: want to have in it? And then introducing your own
Speaker 1: you know that I've never had before, or just having
Speaker 1: this whole new side of things being introduced. It was
Speaker 1: so exciting.
Speaker 2: Caesar, Carrie and her son started a tradition of Sunday dinners.
Speaker 1: He would take me out to a little Mexican grocery
Speaker 1: store by carnitas, buy the dirtillas, you'd make all the
Speaker 1: prep and then we'd have this little buffet of carnitas together.
Speaker 1: We would laugh and the three of us would watch movies.
Speaker 1: In one of the most tender scenes, the three of
Speaker 1: us were on the couch and the basement. Then, in fact,
Speaker 1: Caesar made sure I'd noticed this. My son was leaning
Speaker 1: up against him and he looked over at me. I
Speaker 1: just felt like, we're a family. See, we're a family.
Speaker 1: Even my own son loves him.
Speaker 2: After almost a year of dating, care and Caesar planned
Speaker 2: their first vacation together.
Speaker 1: So we plan a trip over the middle of February
Speaker 1: to go out to California, and his favorite movie is
Speaker 1: The Godfather, and we found out that Copolas have a
Speaker 1: winery out there, so we make this reservation that we're
Speaker 1: going to have a dinner at the winery, and I
Speaker 1: can tell that he's decided it's going to be something
Speaker 1: extra special.
Speaker 2: On the scenic drive to the winery, Caesar seemed almost nervous.
Speaker 1: Driving up to this long dirt road with the trees
Speaker 1: beside it, and you come up dusk and the lights
Speaker 1: are on the trees and it's just beautiful. And then
Speaker 1: we're out on the back deck looking up at the
Speaker 1: moon and next thing I know, I turn around and
Speaker 1: he's on one knee with an engagement ring held out
Speaker 1: and said, will you marry me?
Speaker 2: She said yes. As she looked closer at the ring,
Speaker 2: she noticed something was off about it, and.
Speaker 1: It was really kind of odd that the ring seemed cheap.
Speaker 1: And I feel really even bad saying this, but it's
Speaker 1: like really cheap, like I can tell that it's not
Speaker 1: real metal. It actually started tishing my finger it with green.
Speaker 1: It was cheap, and I came out of the bathroom,
Speaker 1: and he happened to be standing there. He bent low
Speaker 1: and he goes, I know it's not much. I just
Speaker 1: didn't have much to spend. I didn't want to hold
Speaker 1: that up and asking you to marry me. But I
Speaker 1: will buy you a much better one in a few years.
Speaker 2: Ultimately, she didn't really care how much the ring cost.
Speaker 2: She wanted a partnership like the one she had with Brad,
Speaker 2: and this time around, she wanted to do it differently.
Speaker 2: With her kids grown, she could go on adventures, live
Speaker 2: life to the fullest.
Speaker 1: I mean, I had this dream that Brad sort of
Speaker 1: painted for me in Jamaica.
Speaker 2: That's when she got an idea. Caesar was a Mexican citizen,
Speaker 2: so marrying him meant she could apply to be a
Speaker 2: permanent resident of Mexico if they moved there.
Speaker 1: Really great way to make income last a really long
Speaker 1: time is to live in a less expensive place. And
Speaker 1: I thought, I'd already been a landlord, maybe I can
Speaker 1: do something similar.
Speaker 2: So she approached him with a business plan.
Speaker 1: I said to him, have you ever thought about moving
Speaker 1: back to Mexico? Or what about vacation rentals? Why don't
Speaker 1: we do that? And I remember Caesar got super silent,
Speaker 1: like deathly silent, and he paused for a long second,
Speaker 1: and then he said, are you serious. You're not making
Speaker 1: a joke here, are you. I said, no, I'm very serious.
Speaker 1: That would be a dream of mine. I'd love to
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: They started with a trip to one of Mexico's most
Speaker 2: popular tourist destinations.
Speaker 1: We visit outside of Mereda, and then we go to
Speaker 1: Plaia and when we find a Cancun and drive into Plia,
Speaker 1: he and I looked at each other and thought, this
Speaker 1: is it. This is where we want to build this company.
Speaker 2: The entire trip they did research for their new vacation
Speaker 2: rental business.
Speaker 1: United States of citizen can't own property near the shore.
Speaker 1: The only way that you can do that is either
Speaker 1: you buy a lifelong lease as a word for it,
Speaker 1: Fido camiso, or you start a Mexican corporation. It had
Speaker 1: to be two owners and one had to be a
Speaker 1: citizen of Mexico. So we agreed that we would do
Speaker 1: that and that we'd open this and run this rental
Speaker 1: business together.
Speaker 2: So Caesar helped incorporate the business and Carrie started making
Speaker 2: offers on rental properties.
Speaker 1: You find that one property really fell in love with.
Speaker 1: We made an offer on it, and it just starts
Speaker 1: to feel like it's falling into place. We visit another property,
Speaker 1: we make a second offer, and then I even find
Speaker 1: one more that I want. So we have three houses
Speaker 1: that we're going to purchase and then we're going to
Speaker 1: start running them. And my thought was, this is going
Speaker 1: to be enough income that will become self sustaining.
Speaker 2: Carrie supplied all the capital, but she wanted the business
Speaker 2: to be a real partnership.
Speaker 1: Here, I am starting this new relationship used to a
Speaker 1: partnership with Brad, used to having everything work really great,
Speaker 1: to being a team. I didn't want to start out
Speaker 1: with saying I'm ninety nine percent owner, you're one percent.
Speaker 1: It just felt mean, like how do you start a
Speaker 1: marriage on that foot? Like I want to share my
Speaker 1: life with you, but you don't get to own this
Speaker 1: company because I'm contributing to the company and you're not.
Speaker 1: So I made him fifty to fifty owner.
Speaker 2: She felt comfortable with this decision, especially because Caesar encouraged
Speaker 2: her to get a pre nup.
Speaker 1: He's saying, you know, I would really feel more comfortable
Speaker 1: while we're getting married that you go speak to an
Speaker 1: attorney and get a prenuptial agreement. I'm thinking, wow, that's
Speaker 1: really wow. Okay, so that in my mindset, you're invested
Speaker 1: in the relationship. You're not so invested in the money.
Speaker 1: You're invested in the relationship because you want me to
Speaker 1: protect myself.
Speaker 2: So she made an appointment with an attorney.
Speaker 1: The guy sits down with me and he explains prenuptials
Speaker 1: how they work. This corporation in Mexico is not governed
Speaker 1: by US law. It's governed by Mexico. It says that
Speaker 1: in the corporate paperwork all US law, it has no
Speaker 1: power in the country of Mexico. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: make a prenup on what this seemed to me like
Speaker 1: a useless measure.
Speaker 2: She decided against a prenup.
Speaker 1: But for me to have him think of saying that
Speaker 1: really made me feel like, oh, look, you know, just
Speaker 1: like in that picnic when we had on that first
Speaker 1: date and he carried all the stuff, He's thinking of me.
Speaker 1: He cares about me. This is so sweet.
Speaker 2: After all, she believed Caesar had the best intentions, and
Speaker 2: there was so much to look forward to. The rental
Speaker 2: property company was off and running.
Speaker 1: So the value of Brad's life insurance has now been
Speaker 1: spent on properties.
Speaker 2: She really believed in what they were building together. The
Speaker 2: last step was getting married so she could officially become
Speaker 2: a permanent resident of Mexico. After a trip to the
Speaker 2: US to tie up loose ends and finalize the sale
Speaker 2: of her home, Kerry returned to Mexico. She and Caesar
Speaker 2: plan to get married the following week.
Speaker 1: I come back from that trip and Caesar picks me up.
Speaker 1: He's holding flowers and he's rocking back and forth, and
Speaker 1: he's white, he's pale, he's jittery. My first question was,
Speaker 1: does somebody die? That's what it looks like. He's going
Speaker 1: to tell me very very bad news. And he starts
Speaker 1: to cry, and he says, it just hit me because
Speaker 1: we're going to get married five days that I'm still married,
Speaker 1: And I said what.
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal.
Speaker 1: I used to think that you were a good guy
Speaker 1: who sometimes wore a monster mask. But what I realized
Speaker 1: that you're actually a monster who sometimes wears a good
Speaker 1: guy mask. And they whispers, I'm glad you know.
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your betrayal story Email
Speaker 2: us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal pod
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One
Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank
Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production
Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in
Speaker 2: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by
Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced
Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden.
Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kriintech. Audio
Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, additional editing support from
Speaker 2: Nico Ruka and Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains.
Speaker 2: Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts
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