WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Dan Charnas 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.800 Of course, Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.760 classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora Yo 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:09.320 Yo it Up. 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.200 This is Fonte Fontigaelo with this week's QLs classic. 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.000 This week we go deeply talking to my man, my. 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.960 Brother, Dan Charnas, writer, radio hosts and music ezech. Dan 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.640 talks about his early days, a say about journalists, some 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:25.840 of the artists he did and didn't sign in the nineties, 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.720 and how a simple grandma mistake can cause big trouble. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.200 This one was originally released February twenty second and twenty seventeen. 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.360 His new book, Diller Time, which is absolutely incredible. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:39.519 It releases February first. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.080 Of twenty twenty two and it is just an amazing 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.800 book and a beautiful lergy too, and an incredible producer. 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:55.400 Dan Charnas gls classic Fontigolo YEP. 0:00:51.800 --> 0:01:01.800 Crazy Suppriva Ro, Suppriva Suppriva roll call subprev some Supreme 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:06.400 roll Suprema some SUBPRIMEO. 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:11.640 Rod Harriet Tupman Rosa Parks. Yeah, a million more Black 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:13.800 Americans America. What is today? 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:21.920 Impact Supreva ro called Suprema son, Suprema Ro. 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.679 My name is Fante. Yeah, shout out to my Jews. Yeah, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:38.080 Quest of Supreme, Yeah, fake news that suprema so supreva road. 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.839 I met Darryl Yeah when he was defending on television. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:42.440 Yeah. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:43.720 And the people that were on the other side of 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:51.640 the argument, Yeah, didn't stand a chance, right, Suprema suprema 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:53.600 some Suprema. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.880 Rod called thank you Linda Bean, yeah of ll Bean 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:07.520 Yeah for your great support. Yeah by ll B Suprima. 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.240 That was like brama roll call. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.480 Very incredible people. Yeah, and I want to think, Carson, 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:15.359 what's gonna be heading up hud. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:23.200 Yeah, that's a big job. That's all you ever done 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:27.400 in your life. Rics Suprema. My name is Dan. 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.639 Yeah. I didn't meet Darryl, but I now missed the president. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:32.200 Yeah. 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:41.519 It was played by Will Ferrell. Suprea roll Suprema Suprema. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:49.440 Roll call, Suprema Suprema, roll call so Breema so Agreema. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:50.320 Roll call. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.960 Ladies and gentlemen, we are This might be the most 0:02:55.120 --> 0:03:01.080 roguus episode of Quest Love Supreme, probably since the Christmas special. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:08.239 Yeah classic Yeah, uh wait llll Bean is black. No, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.680 it was I was reading the Trump tweet. We should 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.840 explain what we were were well, Yeah, to celebrate month 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.560 we read Trump's Those are excerpts that was Trump quotes 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:24.040 Black quotes from his Black History speech that he gave. Okay, wait, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.919 was just a random tweet that that I was about 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.600 to say. I'm sorry. I was like, I support ll 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:35.240 Bean Yeah, New Hampshire be all Okay, ll Bean's a rapper, right, yes, yeah, yeah, 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:45.680 he's ll cool J's Mexican cousin. Sometimes we've managed to 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:53.120 immediately within five minutes. Okay, this is apparently the last 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.160 episode that was his cousin and Thecammery is also Irish. 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.520 I see what or that was his best version ever. 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.240 We it would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge Black 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.240 History Month. Yeah, you got. We figured the best way 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:17.640 to do it is to quote Cheeto Jackson. That's just 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:24.839 that's your man son. Yeah he Cheeto Jackson. Yeah yeah, man, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:26.200 he's yeah. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.600 He's making Herdergie trumpson. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:31.440 There he is. Yo. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:34.839 Listen, man, I feel like we need to do something. 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:36.839 I feel like we need to do the photo negative 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.120 version of Black History Month. 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.520 Explain that was the rest of the month, yo, Well, 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.280 because I feel like, you know, it's a lot of 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.640 stuff going on now, and you know it's you know, 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.000 we're having this war I think between like people that 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.120 are globalists and nationalists and everything and. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.840 You know, pederalists, everything, all the I s T s 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.000 all the so. 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.800 I feel like every Black History Month we try to 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.480 show like what black people have contributed to the country. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.200 I feel like, in order to really show people what 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.599 we've done, I feel like maybe it might be time 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.520 for us to just remove ourselves like a mon like 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.760 just just for one month, day without yeah, a day 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.080 without niggas, like an. 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:15.680 The Mexicans did that and it worked. 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:17.840 I feel like like every like for real, like we 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.160 take like for one month we show you for all 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:21.600 the people just like go back to your country if 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.000 you don't like to hear for one month black people, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.680 we take away our music, We take away all our seasoning. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:30.640 About to make a living on the music. 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.360 Well, no, I'm saying, listen, if I can go a month, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.039 you know, I mean, do we have the discipline? 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:37.280 You know? 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.160 Right now, a dude who's not eating any cereal or 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:47.640 fried chicken or whatever cheese steaks that I've been noons 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:52.720 and dulging for as of this taping, we're in the eighties. 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:54.279 Your resistance down. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.280 That's yeah, that is one of the I think that's 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.720 all I can I can't do no more. Ain't got 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.120 no more. I can't do no more. You put in 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.560 your time, man, I understand, but I thought about that, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.840 like what if we just did like a just a 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:12.600 cultural enema, and well, we just removed ourselves just to 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.839 really show, like all these folks that really won't black 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:16.840 people go away if you go, and not just black 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:21.960 people people of color, if we are like your your 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.120 your uncle that like needs heart surgery, No doctor Patel 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:30.480 can't help you. All the brown people, everybody, all the 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.119 color people like your hedges outside that's growing over. Nah, nigga, 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:39.000 get yourmo left. So you know what I mean. I'm 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.560 just saying, like we if we did that, I think 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:46.479 we should. We need to let our absence season start. Man, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:49.360 I see what you're doing. You know what I mean. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.760 It's just a thought. It would never work. People. We 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:53.680 ain't gonna do that. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.279 A good TV though, we should do like a TV 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:56.359 should write it right it. 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:58.640 Up, Which brings us to our guess. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:09.000 With us, this is all you dog today we kind 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:09.880 of celebrate. 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.840 Your own guest ship. Okay, welcome, I got the beats. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:17.880 What you did? 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.680 Okay, man today on a quest of Supreme. We have 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:29.800 a guy that is man has written the what I 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.760 would consider like the hip hop Bible, you know what 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.680 I mean. He wrote a book called The Big Payback 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.640 and uh, the best way I can describe it, I've 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:40.320 never seen Star Wars in my life but that. But 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.480 you know, for the Star Wars people, it is this 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.520 book that shows how all what still to this day still. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.840 I gave him last year and that was your first 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.160 time seeing it. For Yeah, you ain't going to see 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:53.520 Billy d. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:54.800 You ain't gone. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:56.760 I was four when that nigga was popping. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.240 I'm watching that, all right. I'm sorry to mean to digress. 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.520 It was you know, I wasn't watching that. Okay, I 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.240 missed Star Wars, but hey whatever, So as I was 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.240 saying Billy G was in the Empire strikes back, that's 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.040 the second one, right, Yeah, that's the one I heard 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.200 was kind of live. I heard that one was dope. 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.520 I can't believe we're having this conversation. No, I just 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:19.960 missed that. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.680 Whole was like hip hop Bible for Star Wars people, 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:24.559 Star Wars people. 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:29.480 His book showed how all the Anakins became Darth Vader's 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.520 like if you want to see how every all the 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.080 major players in the game, the Russells, the Rick Rubins, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.120 the Jesus Christ, everybody, everyone who's someone in the world 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.320 of hip hop. If you want to see how they 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.360 became who they are, this book shows it, and it 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.600 shows how hip hop played a role. It starts off 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.920 in nineteen seventy eight. I want to say, is it 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.480 seventy sixty eight? Oh shit, I missed the whole decade technically. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:09:00.520 Okay, Well, the beginning of the book, which is amazing 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:13.120 to me, which I know, so we gotta build it up. 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.360 So no, nineteen sixty eight. It starts with. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.079 DJ Hollywood, uh, and it ends with the election of 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.559 Barack Obama, and it shows how hip hop played a 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.880 role in all of that and all just the mini 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:25.800 the thread. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:27.439 Hip hop was a thread that ran through all of that. 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.760 And it's an incredible read. And on top of that, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.680 he's uh played a hand in some of my favorite 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.360 hip hop records. And he's also the writer creator, well 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.679 one of the writers co creators of The Breaks on 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.760 v H one, which I played a small a little bit, 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.679 you know what I'm saying, big bro, and uh nah, 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.000 And he's like you know, real good friend of mine, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.839 very knowledgeable guy. Ladies, gentlemen, boys and girls. Give it 0:09:52.920 --> 0:10:00.720 up for mister Dan Charnis, Can I break it up? 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:00.920 Well? 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:05.800 The thing was I the thing that grabbed me about 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:12.040 the Payback book is the fact that you really started 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.959 the book in the eighteen hundreds. And what I wanted 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:17.920 to ask you, what I always wanted to ask you, 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:24.719 was what were your feelings about Hamilton? Because you now now, 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.199 that's the one thing I wanted to ask on like, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.880 and I never got to ask him, like was he 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.720 inspired by reading your book first? Or because you made 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:40.640 the comparison and compared Alexander Hamilton to you put him 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.120 in hip hop terms right in the same way that 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:48.880 Hamilton actually does, so did you assuming that you've seen it? 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.480 Or I think we both read Cherno's book at the 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.280 same time and had different reactions to it. He was 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.000 a playwright and he started on this amazing work, and 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.079 I was working on a book about hip hop, and 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.600 it just made sense. The guy who invented American money 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.839 lived and died in Harlem. That's the first sentence of 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.360 the book, and so it ends. And sugar Hill is 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:12.680 Alexander Hamilton's estate. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:14.079 That's where he lived. 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.400 So I when I heard about Hamilton, I. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:21.400 Just no, no. 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.120 I thought, I was like, oh my god, he gets it, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.240 he really gets it. Somebody else gets it. And Lynn 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.760 knew something else that I couldn't believe anybody else knew, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.920 is that the very first rap record, really the first 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.480 rap on record, like like Bronx style, Harlem style. M 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:44.560 Seeing was not sugar Hill Gang was not Rappers, Delight 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:49.640 was not King Tim iid. It was on the soundtrack 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.360 the Broadway recording of the original soundtrack recording for Runaways 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.280 by Liz Suados in nineteen seventy eight. There was a 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.760 rap song about the Blackout on that album, and Lynn 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.880 tweeted about him, like, wow, he knows that I've never 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:05.880 met the man. I mean we have the same like agent, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.000 but I've never I've never met him. 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:18.760 Really, Yeah, that's brilliant. Lennon of Miranda, So you have 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.800 you seen Hamilton? Yeah yeah, yeah, So okay, I always 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.840 wanted to know what the feelings were. Yeah. I mean, 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.599 it's why you took that position though, because because we 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:29.000 live in. 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.800 Harlem, so we feel like really connected to the soil 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.600 of the place, you know, and you know, my son. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.560 He plays little league baseball in Jackie Robinson Park, which 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.360 is right on that cliff under sugar Hill, And it's 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.679 it's like you you feel the presence. 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.360 There of that and is that that's where you were 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:48.199 born and raised or not? 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.040 I was not born in Harlem. 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:50.720 Where were you born? 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.120 I was born a few blocks south of Harlem, Lennox 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.080 Hill Hospital on seventy seventh Street. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.520 So, yeah, as a non New Yorker, how do you 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.480 differentiate as a as a non New York or for 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.599 me as a non New Yorker asking you, how do 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:12.000 you differentiate what's Harlem and what six? 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.840 You know, the border on the east Side. 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:21.040 Yeah, okay, so ninety six is considered up upper west Side. 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.520 That's your border between the Upper east Side and Harlem. 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.040 Now I live in Harlem, but but that's in the 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:27.840 traditional border. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.439 It gets a little tricky because I've been looking for 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.480 a few cribs or whatever, and when I went to 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.160 check out a spot in Harlem, they've now re christened 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.120 sugar Hill as in Hamilton Row. And when I and 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:48.240 when I asked they were they kind of yeah, they 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:49.800 kind of kicked it to me, like, yeah, this does 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.440 an excuse for us to add an extra extra. 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.360 Zero zero to the yeah to the to the press, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.199 and a lot of a lot of that stuff gets 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.079 named for real estate, like morning Side Heights two to 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.760 be Harlem Heights, but then when the name was out 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:03.880 of vogue, they changed. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.880 It's like stages of gentrification changed anything. Heights like that just. 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.199 Sound real project to me, Like in around our way 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:19.600 in the South, like heights, Garden, y'all have heights, heights, heights, gardens, homes, 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.080 homes of the jack, any of them, Like oh yeah, 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.880 oh yeah, it's real. Yeah, it's yeah. It's a lot 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.040 of wik vouches, it's it's real. It's real out there. 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.560 So that's where I stayed at. But so I want 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.120 to go. In the words of our Coult leader, I 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:40.040 want to start at the beginning. You've always wanted. I 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:41.560 want to start. Want to start the beginning. 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.280 So act as if you know, because we me and 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.720 you have had a lot of conversations about, you know, everything. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.960 So it's like Eddie Murphy are sitting on home. I 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.520 want to be okay, So tell us the beginning, Like, 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.440 you know, what was your upbringing like as a kid. 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.080 Uh, well, I guess the most important thing about my 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.960 upbringing is that, you know, my mom raised me in 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:07.800 this town that was in between Baltimore and Washington, d C. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.880 So I grew up with a lot of you know, 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.720 soul and funk radio Columbia, Maryland. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.880 Yeah, so are you from there to No. 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:25.080 No, Columbia, alas, I'm from the DMV, but not like Columbia, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.960 because Columbia kind of not you know, like you said, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.240 it's on the edges in between DC and Baltimore. Your 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:32.120 cooler in Baltimore. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.120 You know, I grew up listening to w h U 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:38.480 R Howard University Radio, listening to uh, you know, V 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.040 one O three in Baltimore. So it was an interesting 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.160 sort of class and race integration of an interesting place 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.760 to grow up, and yet it was the most segregated 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.080 time in American culture. It was like post disco. You know, 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.400 all the radio formats were really really strict, and you know, 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.880 I had my sort of I mean, I grew up 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.440 with Earth When in Fire and Stevie Won and all that, 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.520 but I had my epiphany with you know, more Bounce 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.840 than Ounce in nineteen eighty. That was my thing. Like 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.560 I never heard this song on the radio stations that 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.760 my preppy friends listened to what are these other radio stations? 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.120 And that began. I sort of got politicized by that 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:12.600 a little bit. 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.240 What was your people's playing in the crib? What was 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:14.800 mom and dad? 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.640 Earth Wind and Fire? Marvin gane oh, Stevie Wonderer. 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:22.480 Yeah, wow, Oh so you was raised on the essential? 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:28.000 Yeah. My mother still angry at me that I stole 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.280 her Earth Wind and Fire records when I left for college. 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.400 So that's dope, man, that they would listen to that. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.360 So that was was that your entry way of like saying, hey, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:40.240 I want to do this one day, like I want 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:41.680 to do it for myself. 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.240 I was actually when I went to college, I was 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.240 actually thinking of becoming a like a school teacher, high 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.160 school teacher. And my major was Afro American studies. They 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.640 called it Afro American Studies at that point, and I 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.840 did a I just decided that I would do my 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.640 thesis on I called musical apartheid in America. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.560 Say what, wait? First, let me just ask you this. 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.680 We talked about your background. This is radio. Let me 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.120 just not assume you're not African American. 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.440 I'm Jewish, So I always wonder. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.800 Y'all didn't know that either because y'all would have been celebrated. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.159 Oh wow, y'all didn't know you thought he was like 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:20.560 John B. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:25.359 No, you'd never assume, because you know, black comes in 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.840 many forms. You know what I'm saying. Mariah Carey is black, 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.439 So why couldn't he didn't? Because I asked that because 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.520 I'm always interested when non blacks do a major like 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:36.600 Afro American studies, like that's interesting to me, Like what 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:36.960 made you? 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.480 I did? No for a major to West African? Still 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.520 the Muppets every day has nothing to do with West African. 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.639 I did. That's been to Africa more than you have. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.399 I've never been there, no, never, Most of us have 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:50.919 never been there. 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.280 You'll find that I've been that. I've been to the 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:54.000 South Africa. 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.480 They're artists. Most regular black people people don't. We've never 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:57.800 been there. 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.159 So the only people that can afford to get to 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:00.400 Africa those a can exploited. 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:01.159 So I'm interested in. 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.359 Singular click. 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:13.920 So now that we have, that's interesting. So now we 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.520 have two Jewish men who majored in that, both of y'all, 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:17.480 I will be interested in y'all. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:24.880 Like the Total song Africa Sugar for the Wind, I can't. Yeah, yeah, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.359 I saw, yeah, so I thought you do. Well. No, 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.119 he's a member of the tribe. He's my brethren. 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:31.720 M O T. 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.160 Wait what's the answer for real? No, seriously, what makes 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:37.840 you major in African Americans? 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:38.840 More about to the house. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:44.720 Just okay, I just okay, okay, I'll be honest with you. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.600 I was kind of you. Yeah, I mean you had 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.520 so much flavor. I just thought, okay, you one of us, 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.680 like a Sean king. I didn't want to zoom. I 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.800 think it's appeared in the glasses. I think that's I 0:18:57.840 --> 0:18:58.520 think that's what it is. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.200 Could be Latin too, you know, just hand but okay, 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:07.560 if I come without the beard, it would have been 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:08.359 completely different. 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.320 Yeah yeah, the beard kind of you give it a 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:14.119 little play tops at home and my pass. 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.119 How come the Beastie Boys and Rick Rubin don't automatically 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.120 give us credit right from the beginning. 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.920 Well, okay for having bounce or funk or whatever you're 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:24.359 talking about. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:30.600 It's weird when listen. As for me, when I first 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.639 heard the original Maroon era parties getting rough, like, I 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.400 thought they were Puerto Rican, Like have you heard rock hard? 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.600 And all right, maybe not rock hard, but definitely with 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.280 this party is getting rough? Have you have you heard 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.000 this party is getting rough? Uh? Yeah, I have. I 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.440 we talked about it in the previous Yeah. So, I 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.440 mean basically I thought they were Puerto Rican and it 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.480 wasn't until you know, I opened the inside leave a 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.840 licensed to ill. I was like, oh, they are not 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.439 Puerto Rican. Well, also, I guess the way they were 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.480 dancing on cheese on it and crush groove, I should 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.080 have known that. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess Puerto Rican. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:15.960 For me, it never because I was in the South, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.200 so we have a lot of Puerto Rican. So we 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.640 just it was either black or white Salvadorian. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.720 Yeah, oh wow, that's a whole nother culture, right, do 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.280 you not You don't remember this Dan in DC? This 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.680 is no Okay, hadn't gotten there yet because that was 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:32.720 like the early eighties. 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.800 Okay, that was that was when all the coke was 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:36.400 getting moved. 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:38.680 Listen. I don't know so Dan after. 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:41.240 Left. 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:48.399 Man, Well, anyway, nobody answered my question. Just assume in 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.080 the future that all Jewish people are funky. Well yeah, 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:54.720 some of the I'm just joking, but I'm saying you shouldn't. 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:58.359 I mean, certainly, you know, you can he was offended 0:20:58.400 --> 0:20:58.680 by s. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.560 There is a bit of a special relationship. I don't 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.040 want to make too much of it, but there is 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.280 a bit of a between me and between the three two. 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.280 I'm feeling, what do you mean. 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.520 Between uh, you know, black folks and Jews in America? 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.120 Here we are, We're on the same game civil rights. 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.320 I'm just saying you shouldn't be surprised that that there's 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:22.560 a Jew in the room. 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.119 I was never surprised. You know who has bounce or 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:34.320 whatever you want to be said flavor flavor? I mean 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:40.080 you know I Search episode. I said that Search had 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.400 more flavor. Yeah, because that was the term of the time. 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:50.280 That was what it was. He had flavor. So all right, 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.080 if you're just joining us, uh, this is the prame. 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.679 And if you're still with it for our Jewish listeners, 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.440 hope we pitch no. We're here with Dan shahnis author 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.600 of The Big Payback MESI Plas and also writer for 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.040 The Breaks and a whole bunch of other flash ship 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.840 be about to get into all right, so tell me 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.159 how college you went to? 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:14.680 Boston University. 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:16.360 Boston University. 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.560 Graduated eighty nine. Okay, okay, you know so you got connected. 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:23.200 I knew, but I don't want to play that game, like, 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:25.960 you know, start naming proper nowns. Did you know a 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.240 Lloyd Stare It? Okay? 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.280 And I'm Google searching that ship. 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:34.040 Alright. 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.640 So however, I did go to college at the same 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:37.480 time as Paul Batty. 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.359 Okay, so there's that Paul Batty who's. 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.720 Wrote to sell out just one of the man Booker Prize. 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.399 Paul college friends. Man, damn read a book. I am 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.520 read Dan's book. Okay. So what was your major in college? 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:56.240 Afro American Studies? 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:58.560 Oh, that was like your major major. Yet it wasn't 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.879 like I got excited. That's real, Okay, especially in Boston, 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.200 right exactly are. 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:07.680 You looking at me like what's wrong? I'm to see 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:09.800 if this makes sense. I'm like you, you went to 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.560 Boston University. Yes, you majored in Afro American studies. You 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.560 came from the DMV. That's like a lot of different things, 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.320 Like you came from a whole freaking different culture in 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.919 the DMV, went to Boston and then studied afrom like. 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:25.320 Going up there from. 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:29.439 Yes, because they didn't have any radio stations that played 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.320 any funk soul, R and B you know. 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.080 So that was graduated eighty nine, so I went there 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.840 in eighty six eighty five, right, so this is so 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:40.840 of course this is how okay, I know it was 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:44.320 this leading Okay, So all I have to listen to 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:46.920 the college stations and all they're playing is like this 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:48.640 electro and hip hop. 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.719 Right, So that was my induction into more hip hop, 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:54.080 because hip hop was always just sort of like a 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.159 subset of R and B to me, and then it 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.959 just started to become more important to me. And then, 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:03.639 you know, when you're in college, it's the first time 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:05.920 I ever read Malcolm X. It was my sort of 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.920 really like kind of getting politicized, and then the music 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:11.280 was getting political at the same time. So by the 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:16.000 time I graduated, it was the only thing that was important. 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:17.840 It is the only thing I wanted to do. I 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.640 wanted to be involved in the business, you know, somehow 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:25.840 to help this culture become everything that it could and 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:30.520 should be. And I think I said, I'd written this thesis, 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:33.680 you know, honest thesis at the end of college called 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:37.840 musical Apartheid in America and sort of analyzed white America's 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:40.359 relationship to black culture over a four hundred year period 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:44.200 and so the dynamic of right ambivalence, we love it, 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:46.600 we hate it, right, we love you, we hate you. 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.600 And I sort of tracked that throughout four hundred years 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.159 and it ended with hip hop. And that's how I 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:55.600 got to meet a lot of the people in the business, 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:57.920 because I went and I interviewed them, and one of 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:00.240 those people was Bill Stephanie, who was the president of 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:05.080 Deaf Jam at the time. And Bill, you know, I 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.920 sent him a copy of my thesis when it was done, 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:11.640 and he, you know, said, when you come to New York, 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:13.760 come look me up. You know, maybe I'm starting a 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:16.440 record company. Maybe we can work together. And what was 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:20.399 funny about that was right the evening that I was 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.800 supposed to meet with him, the Village Voice story came 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:28.040 out with Professor Griff talking about Jews and jewelry. So 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:30.880 the record company got put on this and eventually became 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:31.960 Soul Records. 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:35.800 Right yot steps, Oh wait, Soul so first one. 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.879 Yeah, So Bill and Hank, Bill left def Jam to 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:44.240 form this record company with Hank and Chuck. And then 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:48.720 you know, Griff you know, was talking to Dave Mills 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:50.879 at the Washington Times and R. J. Smith at The 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.200 Voice picked it up and then it was just it 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:55.160 was like postponed for a year. 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:57.879 What was the controversy for those that don't know. 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:02.480 What happened, was that Professor Professor Griff said something to 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:05.119 the effect of, why do you think they call it 0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:08.760 jewelry because of the Jews? 0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:12.600 You know, yeah, it is right. I'm like that, I 0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:18.000 don't know, it's not that, it's not I assume, said Thompson. 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:20.520 I've always assumed it was. But at that time that 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:21.240 was crazy. 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:25.080 I remember, I remember that ship was. Yeah, like Griff 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:27.560 they cut him out. They had to kind of like 0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:31.200 excommunicating whatever, Like was no, no, for real, Like that 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:31.720 ship was. 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:34.080 Like I'm looking. 0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:36.640 That's one of the questions I forgot to ask MC 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:39.480 search was there was a confrontation between him and Griff. 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:43.560 The reason why that jam had to put guards in 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:46.959 the you know, uh, that was one of the main reasons. 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:48.760 Like, it was a lot of confrontations. 0:26:49.160 --> 0:26:53.440 I remember that summer. So that put everything on hold. 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:55.800 Once that happened, that kind of put soul on hold. 0:26:55.920 --> 0:26:57.960 Yeah, So what I ended up doing was getting a 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:00.440 job in the mail room of Profile Records, and that 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:03.320 was the home of Rob Bass run DMC special ad 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:06.840 right in the summer of like the fall of nineteen 0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:09.080 eighty nine. So my first job was answering phones and 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:10.439 stuffing envelopes a profile. 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:16.080 So you're saying that had that not happened, so would 0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:19.480 have gotten developed by nineteen eighty nine instead of nineteen 0:27:19.560 --> 0:27:20.439 ninety one. That's right. 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:21.840 Wow. 0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:26.600 So I wonder if those young Black teenagers and the 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:31.119 Sun of Bersik album were ready to go in nineteen 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.639 ninety like earlier than when it got released, because it 0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:36.280 didn't come out to what like ninety ninety one. 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:41.000 I do recall Bill still waiting for those things to 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:44.520 be complete in nineteen ninety like it was. 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:48.119 He was still you know, those two records, man, are 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:52.680 like to me, I mean as far as like I 0:27:52.840 --> 0:27:55.680 loved anything and everything that the Bomb Squad has ever 0:27:55.720 --> 0:28:00.280 done as a production unit. But it is so weird 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:05.080 because do you have a product musically it could be 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:08.520 hip hop or whatever that you hold near and dear 0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:11.919 to your heart that you know won't translate to anyone 0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:16.320 else enough for you. Like to me, I like, if 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:21.000 I were at the source at the time when those 0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:24.479 records came, I would have five mic both those records 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.760 because it's just so many layers of genius to them, 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:33.480 at least from the production side. But you know, I 0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:36.359 know the average person would just give it three whatever. 0:28:37.400 --> 0:28:40.920 The source love that song, well, they love changing the style. Yeah, 0:28:41.160 --> 0:28:42.880 they gave that a classic rate. Well they gave it 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:45.080 a four the time. 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:45.680 Remember that. 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:53.760 Oh I've memorized record. Yeah, because I don't want to 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:56.680 scare you and I hate to change the subject. 0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:58.560 But you know what I remember. I remember your columns. 0:28:59.080 --> 0:29:01.800 I think they were wrapped sheep right, yeah, we're a columnist. 0:29:01.880 --> 0:29:06.200 That's how I first got yeah, she she she she 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:06.840 hooked me up. 0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:11.000 Man. So with those records of soul gets, it's those 0:29:11.040 --> 0:29:13.840 solos on whole you a profile. I was even one. 0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:16.400 We were talking about this today, man, like, like, do 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:18.360 mail rooms still even exists anymore? 0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:19.840 I really don't know. 0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:26.680 I don't know record labels, but NBC, NBC there's always 0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:31.160 someone putting mails flowing. That's the way I get record companies. Ghetto. 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:31.560 I am. 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.760 All my mail gets to the NBC now, so everything 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:42.840 like cards from families. People be like what's your address, 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:44.840 And I'm like, well, do you want me to get 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:48.640 actually get letter or package or yeah? So all I 0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:50.840 just you know, that's my house and they'll bring it 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:54.440 to you sleep there. Yeah, I mean some weekends, I'll 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:56.440 make it a weekend there. I guess it is your house. 0:29:56.480 --> 0:30:06.920 Then record companies barely have offices, so do they because 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:08.400 that's started. 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:11.240 To get out of the mail room. 0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:16.080 Now was that? 0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.040 So at that time were you getting were you like 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:21.280 getting to please listen to my demo? Like, were you 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:22.320 getting that? Yeah? 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:25.080 I mean it wasn't. It wasn't. The thing about Profile 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:27.560 at the time, there really weren't any It was a 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:29.640 hip hop label. I mean had a lot of hip 0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:32.480 hop on it. There were no like hip hop heads there. 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:37.440 You know Brian Chin who signed Rob Bass and special Ed. 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:41.120 He loved hip hop, but his first love was dance music, right, 0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:44.680 So I guess that's why Corey gave me a job, 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:47.160 you know, listening to demo tapes and doing ain't R 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:49.240 and I was not very good at it. 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:54.200 But who were your signings? Why do you say you were? Well? 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:57.600 I mean I just wasn't successful in getting anybody across. 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:00.360 Like I found Geno Excel when I was you know, 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:03.080 at Profile, but I was not successful in making the 0:31:03.160 --> 0:31:07.000 sale and getting him signed. So but it wasn't long. 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:09.840 You know, while I was working at Profile, I also 0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:11.680 was writing for The Source. They had were in the 0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:16.080 process of moving from Boston to New York. Were you 0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:20.040 in that first summer issue, the one I wrote the 0:31:20.200 --> 0:31:20.960 ll cover story? 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:26.680 Sorry a couple of years. 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.760 All right, you wrote that cover story, the one the 0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:32.400 Mama said. 0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:36.320 Notack you out? Yes, I remember, oh Man, the nerd, 0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:38.000 the nerd of me is really about. 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:41.680 To go in, go in, oh Man. 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:46.440 Yeah, Lego heart just like exploded exactly like that that issue. 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.680 I mean that probably next to the first five issues 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:55.560 of Grand Royal Magazine. Wow, like Royal somewhere in one 0:31:55.640 --> 0:32:00.080 of those eighteen storage units are like, I'm an I 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:03.920 would buy the Source like three each and just preserve them. 0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:06.320 Because when I first got that l issue, am an 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:10.920 easy issue. I'm like, that's the first time I ever 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:18.080 saw people truly understand and really wax poetic about hip 0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:22.480 hop culture in a way that Rolling Stone would or 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.960 Cream Magazine. Like. I'd read those magazines and just wonder, 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:29.080 like damn, like wonder what it's like for someone to 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:30.520 write about hip hop culture that way. 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:33.400 I didn't know you wrote that cover story. I was 0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:35.720 just shot in the dark. That's crazy, and that was 0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:38.120 what nineteen ninety ninety. 0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:40.640 So I wrote the Public Enemy cover story, the ice 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:43.160 Cube cover story, and then the the lo one. 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:46.120 Oh man, did you review America's Most Wanted? 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:48.640 I did, well, it was more like it was more 0:32:48.720 --> 0:32:50.520 like an essay on ice Cube. 0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:53.080 Okay, well, I know that. Nice to give an issue 0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:57.080 you didn't know. Okay, okay, well, but I remember that 0:32:57.240 --> 0:33:00.320 was like the summer issue, right yeah, yeah, because the 0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:02.080 most One got a five. I want to say, yeah, 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:09.280 Tribe got a five, Edu Teament got a five. It did, Yes, 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:14.520 it did. A fourth album got a five that I 0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:18.920 nineteen ninety and I'm also shocked that I knew. I 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:21.800 knew you guys were the deal. When some didn't sit 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:25.120 right with me with Fear of a Black Planet, but 0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:29.360 it was kind of like, you know, I'll ride with it. 0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:31.120 You know, one of those things where it's just like 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:38.320 probably how you feel about phrenology? Nah, yo, okay, now 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:42.640 let's go there say kind of I mean there's you know, 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:45.560 give you give your act like I'll let it slide 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:49.920 and just but no, well, okay, we'll talk about phrenology. 0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:53.520 So Fear of a Black Planet, you didn't you wasn't 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:54.880 all the way on board with that. Well here's the 0:33:54.960 --> 0:34:01.200 thing though, I mean, even though the thing that still 0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:04.240 holding in light now mind you, I mean it's twenty 0:34:04.720 --> 0:34:08.759 five years later or whatever, you know, the Pitchfork's right 0:34:08.880 --> 0:34:10.600 up of it. They gave it a perfect ten and 0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:15.239 really really made it like presented in the way that 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:20.320 even I didn't see it back then, something was missing. 0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:24.800 And then I realized that that something was Sadler. So 0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:27.960 Sadler was sort of like on half the record, Eric 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:32.640 Sadler had sort of made his graceful exit, and I 0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:36.400 couldn't quite place where was you know, some songs I 0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:40.360 was a little the probably when the Cracker was like okay, 0:34:41.040 --> 0:34:45.279 I like I fuck with that one. I mean, I look, 0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:51.160 it's a masterpiece of a record, but I still went 0:34:51.239 --> 0:34:53.520 for America's most wanted like that to me was now 0:34:53.600 --> 0:34:56.880 if we're doing of course presidential Bomb Squad and evenfore 0:34:56.960 --> 0:35:02.000 that matter, Bellbdevo's Poison album, No, that was Bomb Squads. 0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:06.160 It was I know, So for me, of those three records, 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:08.759 like I was kind of it was kind of weird 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:11.359 that it was like in the Brons Squaddy, well. 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:11.880 No, it was. 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:14.520 It was a bronze to me, and there was a review. 0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:17.080 They gave it three and a half mics in that 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:22.960 Source issue, and I was like, whoa this is? I said, Wow, 0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:25.360 they're not salivating over this. And it wasn't like the 0:35:25.480 --> 0:35:29.799 dismissive you know, Spin magazine like this is a ghetto music, 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:31.919 I hate this, you know. It was like a well 0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:34.240 informed and I was like, wait, I kind of feel 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:38.759 I think I agree with this, so so weird that 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:43.719 I didn't realize you were that era of old so 0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:47.520 how No, But it was it was those first five 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:52.880 issues that from that to brand Nubian issue that one 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.799 got five to right in two issues two issues later. 0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:00.480 There was so much ambition in that era and those 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:04.239 issues like just to really have a voice that was 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:10.400 exclusively dedicated to hip hop and and just smart and political, 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:12.759 and just the people there were. I mean that was 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:17.680 Dream and Kirna and you know, Maddie. 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:21.840 Where was your era there? Well you there from the 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:22.400 beginning too. 0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:24.920 I was there when they were still in Boston when 0:36:24.960 --> 0:36:27.799 that Summer issue was being written, and then I left 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:31.439 to go work for Rick Rubin in ninety one ninety one, 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:34.440 so ninety one was sort of my swan song with 0:36:35.120 --> 0:36:35.560 the Source. 0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:39.640 Do you remember your last issue the last article I wrote? 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:42.680 Oh man, I don't even remember it was I don't remember. 0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:46.000 Sometime in ninety one, I think was my last piece, 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:48.080 or ninety one or early ninety two. 0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:50.840 Well, yeah, that's a classic as it gets. What do 0:36:50.960 --> 0:36:52.320 you remember the album's even reviewed? 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:56.440 I did cover stories, I didn't and like feature articles. 0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:58.160 I didn't really do the album reviews because that was 0:36:58.239 --> 0:37:02.320 the the that was like the core group, the mind squad, 0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:09.920 you know. And I sometimes I regret not participly stopping 0:37:10.280 --> 0:37:13.719 my writing career to go into the record business now 0:37:13.880 --> 0:37:17.080 feels like, you know, I mean, because I had a 0:37:17.120 --> 0:37:18.640 lot of catching up to do. When I moved back 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:20.800 to New York. I went to go work for Rick Rubin, 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:23.359 you know, in LA for about thirteen It was ended 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:26.000 up being there for thirteen years. But I like not 0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:29.760 having that that writing career going forward. 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:30.120 I thought. 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:33.719 So you went from Profile to the Source, went from Profile, 0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:36.480 and I'm you know, just wrote for the Source while 0:37:36.520 --> 0:37:40.640 I worked at Profile. Year was Profile eighty nine October 0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:43.880 eighty nine to April nineteen ninety one. 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:46.040 So you were there for the first was Naughty by 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:49.160 Nature's First John on no, no, that was it was 0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:54.960 Tommy Boy. That was right. So honestly the first honest yeah, 0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:56.719 the first on like this. 0:37:56.960 --> 0:37:58.720 Ah so wait what was the rosters? 0:37:58.880 --> 0:38:00.799 Just because I'm now I'm profile. 0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:06.719 Rob Bass special ed U Poor Righteous Teachers, which is 0:38:06.800 --> 0:38:09.640 my very first record that rocked this funky joint promotion. 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:13.480 L A Star. I don't know if you remember her, 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:15.799 I remember. 0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:18.680 Or yes she was. 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:22.879 She was on B Boy Records for a while, then 0:38:22.920 --> 0:38:26.160 Brian Chin signed her and she made a pretty good album. 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:30.080 But she got into this battle with Tretch at the 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:32.840 New Music Seminar, this MC battle, and he said the 0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:34.960 only kind of star you could be as a mon star. 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:39.160 Was she not cute? 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:44.399 She was not I liked her. That was not would 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:48.680 about l a star her career right there. 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:51.759 Ship Yo, It seems like it'sunny because you said Poor 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:55.439 Teacher was your first record that you promoted. For some reason, 0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:57.560 it seemed like you got really well received in my area, 0:38:57.600 --> 0:38:59.080 like the d m V area. Did you feel like 0:38:59.120 --> 0:39:01.920 it was easier to promote because you kind of felt. 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:03.960 Yeah, although there weren't really a lot of mixed shows 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:05.799 in DC at the time because remember they weren't playing 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:07.640 it on WPGC at that time. 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:11.839 What was it like, Okay, well you left in ninety one. 0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:15.400 Did you have to work back from him? Then I 0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:18.960 have to back back? Was that was that ninety one? 0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:21.920 Yes? Oh, so here's the story, right, here's the story. 0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:25.759 So man, Rick comes call. I literally just get a 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:29.160 call out of the blue, and the receptionist says Rix 0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:31.600 on the phone, and I knew it was him. I 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:34.880 knew it was Rick. Yeah, not because anybody told me 0:39:34.920 --> 0:39:38.080 he was calling, but because I don't know. Gino Excel 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:39.759 and I had been working on some demos and we 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:41.879 had been talking a little bit and we just did 0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:44.640 like this, It's almost like this little incantation to sort 0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:46.920 of bring him out of the ether. And when he 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:48.640 said Rix on the phone, I said, this is him 0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:51.399 and I picked up It's Rick Rubin. So apparently Bill 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:52.759 Stephanie had given him my number. 0:39:52.840 --> 0:39:53.120 Whatever. 0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:55.680 Anyway, why was hell was I telling you the story? Oh? 0:39:55.840 --> 0:39:56.640 The story? Right? 0:39:56.960 --> 0:40:00.320 So Rick brings me out to Los Angeles sort of 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:03.680 like a courtship, you know. Uh, he's thinking of hiring 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:07.600 me for Deaf American. And one morning I'm staying at 0:40:07.640 --> 0:40:10.000 the Riot High on Sunset and one morning he calls 0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:13.560 and he says, uh, come downstairs, We're going to breakfast 0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:16.360 with Russell. It's like Russell's in town. So we go 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:18.920 to the Beverly Hills Hotel and Russell comes down and 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:22.080 Russell's talking a mile a minute, and Rick is laughing 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:26.560 and he recognizes me. Suddenly, Russell recognizes me as the 0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:31.040 kid at profile who promotes you know, his brother's record. 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:34.080 He says, and the single at the time was a 0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:35.680 song called Faces. 0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:36.000 Which. 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:43.439 You know, So what do you think of Faith? 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:48.000 And I said, and I said, uh. 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.000 I said, and I just the wrong answer. I was 0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:53.440 such a punk. I was like, well, Russell, you know, 0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:56.320 I just think as far as rap R and B fusion, 0:40:56.320 --> 0:40:58.280 I think the kids are really listening to in Vogue, 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:01.080 and you know, they don't really want to hear rappers 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:04.959 doing it the opposite way. Faith is a louder record 0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:05.560 than in Vogue. 0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:07.560 I went into a club that ship was so loud. 0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:13.360 It is much louder, and Rick is losing his mind. 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:16.200 Rick must have called three different people in the car 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:20.000 after we left that breakfast saying, and Russell said, it's 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:24.520 a louder record and that's why it's better. And that's 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:27.000 what I saw like the nature of their relationship is 0:41:27.120 --> 0:41:30.680 that Russell makes Rick laugh, you know, and so. 0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:35.920 It's like a bad way, right right, I think in 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:39.479 a Rick way. I mean you remember Faces, Yes, dude, 0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:42.640 I had the Back from Hill album. Wait, just you know, 0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:47.200 I gotta this face is by nineteen ninety era Run 0:41:47.320 --> 0:42:20.120 dmcme fun and the thing was that because it was Faces. 0:42:20.200 --> 0:42:23.919 But the single before that was Pause, which was even 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:26.759 more kind of new Jack swingy. But they got away 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:33.560 with Pause. Ter J Jay something the trade and asked 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:39.120 them bathing to my homie Stanley Brown car with the keyboard. Wait, 0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:44.040 since you always wanted to know, there's there's a moment 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:48.280 the very last five seconds of the record where runs 0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:56.920 just like you'll take that bullshit off that that bullshit 0:42:57.080 --> 0:43:02.560 is bullshit. I always wanted to know if that was run. 0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:08.400 Finally having a realization that the second worst album of 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:10.200 their career on that label. 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:15.480 Le Or was so mad that didn't sell. I have 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:17.520 a copy of a memo that he sent. 0:43:17.480 --> 0:43:22.560 To the ice Cube remix Ice Cree remix of Back 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:26.640 from Hell. That happened. Oh, I think I remember that 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.200 there was an ice cube. It was it was a 0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:35.839 Chuck d and ice Cube and Run Back from Hell 0:43:37.200 --> 0:43:38.759 remix that. Yeah. 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:41.040 So because at this time, and I wanted to ask 0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.239 you about this if you were involved, because at this 0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:49.640 time that was after Tougher than Leather and you know, 0:43:50.040 --> 0:43:51.680 run D m C had been kind of away for 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:53.960 a minute because they were going they were worn with 0:43:54.080 --> 0:43:56.239 Death Jam, well War. You know, Russ wanted to get 0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:59.880 him on Dead Jam and Profile was like, no, the 0:44:00.000 --> 0:44:02.480 did you have any input or at that time, like 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:05.319 you know, working directly with them, like to. 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:09.319 Try to say like, hey, fellas, you know, no, no. 0:44:09.440 --> 0:44:13.000 I mean you know they were they were at that 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.000 point working on their own. I mean I was just 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:18.439 the kid, you know, bringing that tapes back and forth 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:20.080 from the studio. That was. 0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:23.880 Yeah. So when you hear this record, like, I mean what, 0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:29.360 I have zero ownership of it spiritually, financially, So for 0:44:29.440 --> 0:44:31.359 you it's just straight up like I just gotta work 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:32.439 it and it's just the job. 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:34.839 Like and I mean, listen, they gotta they got they 0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:39.440 got a certain amount of respect, you know regardless, right, 0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:41.520 you know, I take the record the Red Red Bull, 0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:43.520 play it, take it to Chuck, Chuck will play it. 0:44:43.920 --> 0:44:45.520 It's not Uh that was. 0:44:45.520 --> 0:44:49.800 Okay, what else? Sticky did you work special ads legal album? 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:54.360 Did that wow? Ship well let's move it? So no, 0:44:54.560 --> 0:44:57.799 but that whole know that whole that could the five 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:05.120 due the five minute of my Yes, Yes, that entire 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:11.000 I just I just found that record, uh, to p 0:45:11.680 --> 0:45:17.200 astronomical amount of it for the CD. Yeah it is, yes, 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:23.480 but yeah, that's so slept on. It was so entirely 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:24.600 t was great. 0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:26.640 So I just want to know how did Rick feel 0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:29.520 about your answer to Russell? Because remember you said the 0:45:29.560 --> 0:45:31.160 whole reason that you were coming to l A is 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:33.320 because of the possibility of you working with Rick, And 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:35.360 then you said you felt uncomfortable with the way that 0:45:35.440 --> 0:45:37.280 you made him answer the question with Russell. 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:40.280 So Rick was laughing his ass. 0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:44.720 What you said, and so you were you were? You hired? 0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:46.920 And then well then then Russell called and left the 0:45:46.960 --> 0:45:50.120 message on Rick's machine. He said, Uh, if you don't 0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:52.919 hire that kid, I'm gonna hire him. He don't know nothing, 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:54.640 but like his attitude. 0:45:56.800 --> 0:45:59.759 I'm glad they were amicable at least I really were. 0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:02.280 Russell used to call me like in the mid nineties 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.160 when I was working for him, when they were really 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:07.160 when Russell was trying to put together his PolyGram deal 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:10.080 and get off of Sony. They were heading into their 0:46:10.080 --> 0:46:12.600 they're trying to put their tenth anniversary thing together and 0:46:12.920 --> 0:46:15.480 Rick still had not finished the negotiations, and he was like, 0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:17.680 can you you know, can you get to Rick is 0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:20.960 not doing anything? He needs to move forward. So he 0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:24.239 would call me sometimes and ask if I could push 0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:24.680 it forward. 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:28.719 So when you went to Rick, is this before or 0:46:29.120 --> 0:46:34.600 after the original Ghetto Boys uh debut on his label? 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:39.600 That was during Yeah, so he had just signed them 0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:46.920 and then Geffen dropped Deaf American because of it, right, 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:50.080 and that's when I started to, you know, have that 0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:54.960 little like four month courtship period, and that's when you know, 0:46:55.120 --> 0:46:57.480 we got the I guess we can't be stopped? 0:46:57.640 --> 0:47:00.239 Right. That was when that was drop. 0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:05.200 And I think that Rick felt some pressure, not really 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:07.680 pressure because Mo Austin, So he had an. 0:47:07.600 --> 0:47:09.640 Option to have we can't be stopped before they went 0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:10.400 to rap a lot. 0:47:10.480 --> 0:47:14.919 That's right, that's right. And I think he decided once 0:47:15.000 --> 0:47:17.560 he moved to Warner Brothers that you know, he had 0:47:17.640 --> 0:47:19.640 fought well enough for the first one, and then he 0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:21.960 didn't feel very strongly about we can't be stopped, which 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:22.920 is ironic. 0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:29.160 Really, that was the one that was the one. I mean, yeah, 0:47:29.200 --> 0:47:30.759 the first one was that was it was Gripping on 0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:35.319 It was Gripping Level, which is basically the same record. Yeah, 0:47:36.600 --> 0:47:40.680 some engineering was was a little different. And did they 0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:44.840 not add an H to Ghetto Boys on the original 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:51.239 I think the original pressing of g yeah, right, but 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:53.680 then they went back to G E C O. Right, 0:47:53.800 --> 0:47:56.719 but there initially when they were on Deaf American, they 0:47:56.840 --> 0:47:57.960 tried they were. 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:01.560 He was on Deaf American when he got shot, right, yeah, 0:48:01.600 --> 0:48:03.680 he got shot in the eye, and so that was 0:48:04.000 --> 0:48:06.200 you know, we were still like concerned about his health 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:10.640 and everything. And but you know, now we're getting the 0:48:10.680 --> 0:48:13.880 era where like the sum of my A and R 0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:18.800 mistakes far outweigh any successes, you know, I mean, what 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:23.200 were your mistake? Okay, here's an example. Paul Stewart was 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:27.920 probably the best you know, all around uh talent scout 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:32.040 in Los Angeles at the time. And you know, Paul 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:35.919 brings me House of Pain's demo and there's this song 0:48:36.040 --> 0:48:38.640 on it called jump Around, and I love it and 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:41.960 I give the tape to Rick. I'm duble tape for Rick, 0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:43.839 and Rick calls me and I said, did you listen 0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:45.279 to how the Pain. He said, yeah, I love that song. 0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:46.720 Jump around a lot of jumping. 0:48:49.560 --> 0:48:53.279 That's a good Rick, That's a good and uh. 0:48:53.760 --> 0:48:55.000 And he says, I really like that song, so I 0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:56.640 like it too. He says, but do you think there 0:48:56.640 --> 0:48:58.120 are any other Do you think they have any other 0:48:58.760 --> 0:49:00.640 songs on this? Like do you think thing? And I 0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:03.399 said no, I think this is the only one they've got. 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:09.160 And then we just let it go and we were right, but. 0:49:09.280 --> 0:49:13.239 We were so wrong. Who else give us another one day? 0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:17.360 And I was just like, this is your greatest missus? 0:49:17.560 --> 0:49:20.319 Really the Far Side demo? 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:35.360 What what if you're just now quest love supreme? And 0:49:35.480 --> 0:49:38.040 he was talking about all his greatest missus? So how 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:39.600 did how did you? How did you miss out on that? What? 0:49:39.760 --> 0:49:40.279 What was the story? 0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:44.560 Yet another you know sort of Paul Stewart incredible demo? 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:47.239 And I liked it. I guess you know what was 0:49:47.280 --> 0:49:49.560 I was just on some ship. I was like, I 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:51.480 work for Rick Rubin and everything I do has to 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:53.719 be perfect, and you know, I just don't know. 0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:55.279 I don't know if this adds up. 0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:57.319 It seems kind of silly, you know, And I don't, 0:49:57.480 --> 0:49:59.680 you know, stupid, you know, because once I heard for 0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:00.600 Better for Worse. 0:50:01.760 --> 0:50:03.000 Wait, that was one of the demos. 0:50:03.080 --> 0:50:05.719 Not on the demo. It was not a demos, it 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:07.640 was it was mister. 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:10.439 Officer and uh in its current state. 0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:11.600 But passing me by was. 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:19.520 You didn't feel it. 0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:22.920 It's not that I didn't feel it. I just didn't 0:50:23.160 --> 0:50:25.640 get behind it fast enough, you know what I. 0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:31.799 Didn't. So yeah, it took me a minute because your 0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:34.600 Mama came out. I fronted on it. Yeah, your Mama 0:50:34.800 --> 0:50:38.080 was like your Mama, and then the remix of your 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:44.239 Mama when no, the remix of your Mama that was 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:51.799 and even they said that your Mama remixes whack dude, 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:55.960 it sucks dick in the album. Yeah. But then when 0:50:56.040 --> 0:51:01.239 we got the record and when for Better for Worse 0:51:01.360 --> 0:51:05.319 came on, Yeah, that was one of those moments. That's 0:51:05.360 --> 0:51:10.480 the first time that like I heard Fender Roads sound 0:51:10.719 --> 0:51:17.560 like water Run and to look at the album cover 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:23.279 and to hear that song like it just the personality, 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:26.760 like I think that's the last time I got lost 0:51:28.080 --> 0:51:30.160 and watching it, you know, like when you're a kid 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:33.560 that when people talk about like seventies experiences of looking 0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:37.480 at album covers and listening like I just got lost 0:51:37.560 --> 0:51:44.480 in a total trance like that song perfectly encapsulated to 0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:49.960 me what they were about, and and and that that 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:58.279 song made me higher. Maybe that was my triun no, 0:51:58.440 --> 0:52:01.520 but I that that's also the song that made me 0:52:01.760 --> 0:52:06.440 instantly hire Scott Storch to the Roots. We were keyboard 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:10.440 lists and then when I heard that, I was like, no, 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:12.600 I want that on my record. And then Rich was like, 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:16.200 I got this guy looking at my crib on my floor. 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:19.759 He can played that, damn. He brought Scott to the 0:52:19.840 --> 0:52:21.520 studio next day and it was like, all right, you're 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:25.040 in the group. Damn. So that was so. So he 0:52:25.160 --> 0:52:27.160 fronted on the forest side, but I won the farest side. 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:34.839 So that was man, that was what ninety one this point. Man, 0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.680 So I'm talking about your time at Death American and 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:45.000 I was. I was just always curious, like it was something. 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:47.920 I don't know if it was a branding thing, I 0:52:47.960 --> 0:52:50.440 don't know what it was, but like they never that 0:52:50.600 --> 0:52:55.359 label never seemed to I mean other than sir mixed lot, 0:52:55.400 --> 0:52:57.440 which I mean we can you know, go into depth about, 0:52:57.480 --> 0:52:59.560 but other than that, it was I don't know, like 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:03.040 just as a fan at that time, their releases didn't 0:53:03.080 --> 0:53:06.960 seem to have like that. I guess that kind of 0:53:08.239 --> 0:53:10.160 like a deaf jam. You know what I'm saying. That 0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:12.640 just I gotta buy this, you know what I'm saying. 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:15.640 But the records were dope like that. The number fault, 0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:17.399 How was that? Your fault was fault? 0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:18.160 You know? 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:21.520 Because I mean like the Knots, that was like world the. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:22.279 Knots was on. 0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:31.280 Yeah you signed them? Yeah yo, I swear to God, 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:37.120 dog I listened to on the air maybe no saggeration, 0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:40.839 maybe nine hours in a row. I kept that ship 0:53:41.160 --> 0:53:47.520 on loop all Christmas Day, just on the edge God, 0:53:47.640 --> 0:53:52.160 that whole. Like when we first came to Los Angeles, 0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:57.880 the mixtapes was and see mixtapes. I wasn't big on 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:02.200 I was. Bus Stops was the ship though. Bus Stops 0:54:02.280 --> 0:54:04.400 was the one. That's how we met the Jazzy vat Nasties. 0:54:05.840 --> 0:54:07.920 They were in that video. They were in the video 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:11.800 for bus Stops. We when we first came to Los Angeles, 0:54:12.680 --> 0:54:17.120 I met Dawn on her way to shoot uh like 0:54:17.239 --> 0:54:19.479 shoot announce video. They were in a bus Stop video 0:54:20.239 --> 0:54:22.080 and they gave me cossette of it and we were 0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:23.920 listening to it. We kind of clown like you should 0:54:23.920 --> 0:54:30.239 sell buddy got them beats you know tap, you know, 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:36.359 like the songs that you make that suddenly we made 0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:39.160 fun of it so much that suddenly became our ship. 0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:41.960 And then it was like, yo, we gotta get him 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:45.920 on stage and rock with us, like like just okay, 0:54:46.040 --> 0:54:49.480 so you're producing, so we didn't. We gotta get into 0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:52.440 that your time as a producer. So how did you 0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:53.520 make that transition? 0:54:54.120 --> 0:54:56.880 It was more like these were artists, like you know, 0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:01.040 Chino and Quest back in New York. They didn't have 0:55:01.040 --> 0:55:05.120 a place, mad lad Yeah, so you know, they would 0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:08.360 come to my apartment, you know on ninth and twentieth 0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:11.600 right there in Chelsea when it wasn't a getrified neighborhood, 0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:16.640 and uh, you know, so it was just they liked 0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:18.480 some of the stuff they were doing with me, and 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:20.640 I managed to, you know, get a couple in there, 0:55:20.680 --> 0:55:21.200 which was good. 0:55:21.400 --> 0:55:23.080 So you were and you were making beats on the 0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:24.200 SP at that time. 0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:28.480 I was making beats on an ASR ten and a 0:55:28.840 --> 0:55:33.279 rolling W thirty And then I bought King Texts SP 0:55:33.400 --> 0:55:36.759 twelve hundred from him and added that to the repertoire. 0:55:36.880 --> 0:55:38.640 And how did you learn it? How did you? Because 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:40.960 I mean it wasn't no manuals, no shit. I imagine 0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:44.200 it's just just trial and error, yeah, and error and 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:48.800 error in error. What did you produce on on their records? 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:53.760 Well, for Tino Excel, I did a song called Rise, 0:55:53.800 --> 0:55:57.879 which was the last song on the album, and Question 0:55:58.000 --> 0:55:59.759 Mad Lad, I did a song called one hundred and 0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:01.560 one to do while I'm with your Girl. 0:56:02.320 --> 0:56:05.360 So you you yo? I was so mad at you 0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:10.640 for using that Brick sample. Oh yeah, that was my wait. 0:56:10.800 --> 0:56:13.400 I hate that. Every everything that he's done is like 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:16.960 a childhood memories mind. No, that Living from the Mind 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:20.080 sample is like I got that ship when I was 0:56:20.080 --> 0:56:21.960 six years old. That was the first eight track I 0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:24.440 ever got as a kid. Damn, you actually got an 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:33.520 eight track for Wow. This is Sleepy Brown's pop singing Wow. 0:56:35.160 --> 0:56:35.480 Record. 0:56:37.680 --> 0:56:39.880 Yeah, living Living from the Mind from Brick. They were 0:56:39.880 --> 0:56:46.439 from Atlanta's Sleepy his dad, Jimmy Brown. Yeah, but when 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:49.560 that was like not even like you know, like records 0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:52.600 when you're making beats and like, oh, I'm a sample 0:56:52.680 --> 0:56:55.320 that one day, but then there's like records from your childhood. 0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:58.399 When I heard that ship, I was so I've never 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:00.640 been so mad at a sample use. I'm sorry I 0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:04.600 was like, no, but it was perfect, man, Like even 0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:07.200 the wait, when was the drum break? It was new birth? 0:57:07.680 --> 0:57:08.360 Did you flip it? 0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:15.680 Yeah, it's a new it's a kick. Boom boom, it 0:57:15.840 --> 0:57:17.040 was a yeah. 0:57:18.120 --> 0:57:19.600 So what a point in your career did you know? 0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:21.880 Because you went from I'm just I'm backtracking. I'm like, 0:57:21.960 --> 0:57:26.280 you went from mail room and our writer and then 0:57:26.960 --> 0:57:29.520 you when did you know that you could even make beats? 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:29.600 Like? 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:30.680 When did you even did. 0:57:30.600 --> 0:57:31.200 It all along? 0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:34.800 You know, like even in college, you know, worked on 0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:38.400 music and stuff. I was in the Inner Strength Gospel Choir. 0:57:38.440 --> 0:57:40.600 I was the bass player the Inter Strength Gospel Choir. 0:57:43.560 --> 0:57:51.240 Whoa, that's that's the African American States. Yeah, the Inner 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:52.400 Strength Gospel Choir. 0:57:52.480 --> 0:57:55.000 You're a musician by nature anyway. That's just something that 0:57:55.040 --> 0:57:57.080 you left out at the beginning. But I mean a 0:57:57.120 --> 0:57:59.040 bass player, that's not something that just you do. 0:57:59.800 --> 0:58:03.840 You failed musicians become producer? Was this a failed producers become. 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:08.160 Was this? Was this a black gospel choir? 0:58:08.360 --> 0:58:08.520 Yes? 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:13.600 Someone wants to I forgot who it was? Shut up, Bill, 0:58:15.040 --> 0:58:17.040 when's the last white gospel choir you saw? I'm just 0:58:17.080 --> 0:58:20.440 saying I don't think there's a lot of them literal. Look, 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:26.080 you know someone during the voodoo toward joke, it was like, 0:58:26.480 --> 0:58:29.080 what made a new penal that? Well, he said, Man, 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:31.640 if your bass player is a white boy in an 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:35.960 all black group, you know he a motherfucker. Yeah, yeah, 0:58:36.560 --> 0:58:39.280 so you're the bass player? It was, And did you 0:58:39.520 --> 0:58:41.960 learn like, were you formally training music? Was it all 0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:44.680 just about ear or how did you learn mostly by ear? 0:58:44.800 --> 0:58:49.840 But so wait, because we're just giving through his whole history. 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:53.760 That quest record was so slept on though. It was 0:58:54.200 --> 0:58:56.440 how did you feel when he got the rap page discovery? 0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:59.840 Well, here's the story behind that, kause Shehena was at 0:58:59.880 --> 0:59:05.080 a at theime and Shea was a friend and she 0:59:06.960 --> 0:59:12.960 heard the advance and assigned Bobby Garcia to do the 0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:17.919 cover story. So Barbito wrote that cover story. But here's 0:59:17.960 --> 0:59:22.320 the thing. We were putting our rap releases not through WEIA, 0:59:22.440 --> 0:59:25.760 which was the big Warner distribution company. We were putting 0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:31.840 him through Tommy Boy's independent distribution. And Tom Silverman felt 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:36.120 that we didn't have enough radio play on the two 0:59:36.240 --> 0:59:39.560 singles we had put out to justify putting out the 0:59:39.640 --> 0:59:43.240 album right away, and you know, we sort of panicked, 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:47.440 and I'm like, you know, I don't know if we 0:59:47.520 --> 0:59:50.240 have another single on this, let's do four more songs. 0:59:50.240 --> 0:59:52.040 And it was a terrible time for a question and 0:59:52.160 --> 0:59:56.080 unfair to him, you know, in terms of he'd done 0:59:56.080 --> 0:59:58.920 this beautiful album and you know, we were finding ourselves 0:59:58.960 --> 1:00:03.800 doing more records. And then finally Sena came along and said, well, listen, 1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:07.200 you're either going to release that album and I'll put 1:00:07.240 --> 1:00:09.560 the cover out, or if you don't really see, I'm 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:11.640 not doing the cover. So that's when I decided to 1:00:11.680 --> 1:00:14.000 put on the schedule anyway because of Shena. 1:00:14.760 --> 1:00:21.320 Yeah, dude, I mean, you know, in case you think 1:00:21.400 --> 1:00:24.520 that you threw pebble out there and didn't ripple and 1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:26.600 didn't dog. 1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:29.200 I love that record, man, Yeah, like yeah, yeah, Death 1:00:29.240 --> 1:00:31.920 American like again, like y'all made the records that I 1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:33.800 bought and they were dope, but it was just something 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:36.280 And maybe it was like the distribution that you mentioned. 1:00:36.320 --> 1:00:38.880 I don't know, but it just seems like they didn't 1:00:38.920 --> 1:00:41.720 get that same love that I guess a lot of 1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:42.840 other records were getting. 1:00:42.880 --> 1:00:45.440 I don't know why that was, you know what I'm saying, 1:00:45.440 --> 1:00:48.760 because the ship was dope. But Bill, did you know 1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:51.520 about question matlet. Nope, all right, I gotta play. I 1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:52.040 gotta play. 1:00:53.320 --> 1:01:00.480 You're not alone alone? Was hit a song? 1:01:00.560 --> 1:01:03.760 I know, just like question mad lad, one hundred and 1:01:03.880 --> 1:01:07.440 one things to do while I'm with your girl. It's 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:13.200 a great title. Hell's us speaking of all the niggas 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:16.320 out there that got girls on the rail, you gotta 1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:19.800 stop hitting them and mistreating them and neglecting them, because no, 1:01:20.080 --> 1:01:22.680 no joke, no, I'll fuck them. 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:26.760 Wa chackie. Now this when it sounds about messed up 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:27.480 war on machine. 1:01:27.600 --> 1:01:29.240 But if you and your girl ain'txite, you know, I'll 1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:31.840 fuck your lady. Get better. Good of a chat because 1:01:31.840 --> 1:01:33.800 it only takes one more move to make me get 1:01:33.920 --> 1:01:39.600 right in case? It so much classic ship man and yeah, 1:01:39.680 --> 1:01:40.840 it just got a little story about that. 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:43.280 You hear that eight oh eight? Yeah, that's an actual 1:01:43.880 --> 1:01:46.520 eight oh eight drum machine. It's ricks eight o eight 1:01:46.880 --> 1:01:47.560 that's making that. 1:01:52.680 --> 1:01:56.120 We're into the first hour of Quest Love supprint only 1:01:56.200 --> 1:02:00.280 on Pandora. Here with Uh, the Illustrious and Press were 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:04.640 the Dan shawnas Uh renaissance man, Jack of all trades, 1:02:04.920 --> 1:02:08.000 the Black Black, the Black whites player, the white basel 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.120 yes black, the white bass player in the Black ensemble 1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:15.600 Black gospel man. Yeah, that's that's some ship, sir, mix 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:19.400 a lot, Yes, sir, that was like the biggest song ever. 1:02:19.680 --> 1:02:21.040 Like what was it like working that ship? 1:02:21.480 --> 1:02:25.520 So that starts, you know, Rick calls me at Profile 1:02:25.560 --> 1:02:27.600 Records says, I'm in town. I'd like to meet you, 1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:31.360 you know, uh, And so he he asked me to 1:02:31.480 --> 1:02:34.280 come to ninety eight Elizabeth Street, which was the old 1:02:34.440 --> 1:02:38.240 Rush def Jam offices, and he still had his apartment 1:02:38.360 --> 1:02:42.400 on the top two floors and he threw down his 1:02:42.560 --> 1:02:45.000 keys from the fifth floor so I could let myself 1:02:45.040 --> 1:02:47.000 in because the buzzer wasn't working or whatever, and def 1:02:47.080 --> 1:02:49.400 Jam had moved out. It was just Rick in this 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:53.320 abandoned uh, you know, brownstone in the middle of the village. 1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:55.560 And so he decided that what we should do our 1:02:55.640 --> 1:02:59.520 first you know sort of meeting or you know, evening together, 1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:01.640 is we would go to Tower Records and he would 1:03:02.280 --> 1:03:05.600 buy me records that he liked, and I would buy 1:03:05.680 --> 1:03:09.480 him records that I liked, and I bought like EPM D, 1:03:11.000 --> 1:03:14.600 Big Daddy, Kane, bismarck Y Main Source, and he didn't 1:03:14.760 --> 1:03:17.840 like any he was not interested in any of it. 1:03:18.840 --> 1:03:21.320 Yeah, some that's not surprising, and so I can kind 1:03:21.360 --> 1:03:24.320 of it just was not his era, you know, he 1:03:24.640 --> 1:03:25.560 that was the era. 1:03:25.520 --> 1:03:28.800 That he left hip hop, right, And then what did 1:03:28.840 --> 1:03:32.439 he play me? He played me Audio two Milk Da 1:03:33.200 --> 1:03:35.680 and Sir Mix a Lot, both to MC's with really 1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:39.160 hazily voices, and I'm like, they both sound like ad Rock? 1:03:39.480 --> 1:03:46.480 Does he just like MCS? And then so for whatever reason, 1:03:46.680 --> 1:03:48.960 he hires me anyway, which I thought was a great 1:03:49.040 --> 1:03:52.520 leap of faith for him, right to give me a shot. 1:03:53.200 --> 1:03:55.920 And then a month after that he says, I signed 1:03:55.920 --> 1:03:58.440 Sir Mix a Lot, right, So. 1:03:58.560 --> 1:04:03.160 His first rigor is swah, I can't remember the the 1:04:03.240 --> 1:04:05.320 one with beepers was yet, don't forget that was. That 1:04:05.480 --> 1:04:06.240 wasn't on Deafam. 1:04:06.480 --> 1:04:10.240 That was on Nasty Mix ofle. So he signed Sir 1:04:10.320 --> 1:04:12.000 Mixed a Lot off for that, got him out of 1:04:12.040 --> 1:04:14.880 that deal, put him on his new deal with Warner Brothers, 1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:17.520 and had a finished album and he sent it to 1:04:17.600 --> 1:04:20.560 me and he says, listen to it and tell me 1:04:21.080 --> 1:04:24.040 what the single is. And I am not looking forward 1:04:24.080 --> 1:04:26.120 to listening to this Sir Mix a Lot album because 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:29.120 I am not a fan and I'm supposed to pick 1:04:29.160 --> 1:04:32.040 a single. So I'm listening into the album and then 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:38.640 third track is oh my god, right, and but I 1:04:38.760 --> 1:04:43.160 had just you know, it completely changed my mind about 1:04:43.360 --> 1:04:45.280 Sir Mix a lot because I had just read this 1:04:45.480 --> 1:04:47.880 article in The Village Voice by Lisa Jones, was a 1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:51.000 Mary Baraka's daughter, and she wrote about, you know, the 1:04:51.160 --> 1:04:54.800 sort of resurgence of the you know, afrocentric beauty aesthetic 1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:59.240 and you're seeing her more curvacous women in magazines. Beverly Peel, 1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:00.800 I think was the mo model back then. 1:05:00.840 --> 1:05:03.120 Yes, first or Jesus. 1:05:03.880 --> 1:05:07.200 So I was like, he's doing you know exactly, He's 1:05:07.200 --> 1:05:09.439 saying exactly what Lisa Jones was saying. So makes lots 1:05:09.440 --> 1:05:20.240 of feminist right. So, uh Rick calls me, he says, sod, 1:05:20.280 --> 1:05:22.040 you listen to the album, Like, yes, Baby got Back 1:05:22.080 --> 1:05:24.000 it's a single, says I think so too. 1:05:24.960 --> 1:05:28.120 So was that all your conversations like yeah, did he 1:05:28.200 --> 1:05:31.040 ever have like a conversations where you were like, hey, Dan, 1:05:32.040 --> 1:05:32.400 you do it? 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:35.520 It was always no that he would. He would like 1:05:35.560 --> 1:05:37.360 come back from Lollapaluz. I say, hey, Rick, how was 1:05:37.400 --> 1:05:42.200 la Palooz? He said, there's a lot of jumping. He 1:05:42.360 --> 1:05:44.080 had a crazy sense of humor and not to get 1:05:44.120 --> 1:05:46.360 off the topic. But he would. He would come into 1:05:46.400 --> 1:05:48.480 a recording studio and if he didn't like what he 1:05:48.640 --> 1:05:50.120 was hearing, he would just say, I've got to leave. 1:05:50.240 --> 1:05:52.600 My doctor says my homeopathic doctor says, I can't be 1:05:52.640 --> 1:06:02.720 allowed around a lot of heavy electronic equipment. Would say, Wow, 1:06:03.200 --> 1:06:04.920 I had to make a I wanted to make a 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:06.720 video for the Art of Origin. He only gave me 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:09.000 five thousand dollars to make it. And I'm like, listen, 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:11.320 I got a treatment, but I need twenty thousand dollars 1:06:11.360 --> 1:06:13.280 to make this video. And he says, all right, I'll 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:15.680 give you the twenty thousand dollars, but now you have 1:06:15.760 --> 1:06:16.760 to make four videos. 1:06:20.680 --> 1:06:20.960 Wow. 1:06:21.560 --> 1:06:23.240 So the first thing I did when I moved to 1:06:23.360 --> 1:06:25.640 LA was, you know, go to the Chaplain stage was 1:06:25.720 --> 1:06:27.280 the old A and M lot, and that's where we 1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:29.720 shot Baby Got Back. And I walked into the set 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.360 and I thought, oh my god, this is a cartoon, 1:06:32.920 --> 1:06:36.240 Like they're going to totally ruin the politics of this song. 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:40.480 This is a serious, dude, you thought you were going 1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:43.880 to make a political statement. I just thought the direction 1:06:43.960 --> 1:06:46.560 You're not look at the did you not look at 1:06:46.600 --> 1:06:48.320 the treatment where it's like this big. 1:06:48.320 --> 1:06:52.240 Ass was Apparently the treatment was Mixed a Lot told 1:06:52.280 --> 1:06:54.760 the director, it's me rapping on a big ass. 1:06:56.440 --> 1:06:59.040 So you didn't tell Sir mix a Lot that there 1:06:59.120 --> 1:07:01.480 was a political that we could win with. 1:07:02.120 --> 1:07:04.440 It was his angle to have. I just walked into 1:07:04.440 --> 1:07:05.760 and I'm like, oh my god, is this going to 1:07:05.800 --> 1:07:08.120 be a cartoon? How's this gonna be? Because now we 1:07:08.200 --> 1:07:11.120 see it as an iconic video, But walking into that 1:07:11.280 --> 1:07:14.560 room it felt like because then mixed Lot was upset 1:07:14.920 --> 1:07:17.280 because he said none of the dancers had asses, right, 1:07:17.600 --> 1:07:21.120 so that was a problem for him. Then they put. 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:24.120 Yeah, I've heard all right, I got a minute now. 1:07:24.160 --> 1:07:27.560 I was like, yeah, baby, ones in gold, not the 1:07:27.640 --> 1:07:29.479 one in yellow. The one in yellow is fine. 1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:32.400 In the beginning, the ones din't gold with the little shorts, 1:07:32.440 --> 1:07:34.280 the shorts, and. 1:07:34.360 --> 1:07:36.240 Then there was a woman of color who they were 1:07:36.360 --> 1:07:38.920 dressing as a mermaid for some reason, and they put 1:07:38.960 --> 1:07:43.360 a blonde wig on her and that was like no, no, no, no, no, 1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:45.000 what are you doing? So mix Lot's getting ready to 1:07:45.000 --> 1:07:47.240 walk off the set. Adam Bernstein's the director is getting 1:07:47.280 --> 1:07:50.560 ready to walk off the set. Ricardo the man, Ricardo Frader, 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:53.800 his able manager, managed to, you know, pull everything together, 1:07:54.640 --> 1:07:58.040 the video happened and it ended up being fantastic, and 1:07:58.320 --> 1:08:00.800 all my fears and anxiety d's you know. 1:08:01.080 --> 1:08:05.600 It ended up not being warranted, all right, So baby 1:08:05.640 --> 1:08:07.720 got back, shit goes through the roof. 1:08:08.000 --> 1:08:11.280 Did you feel a little, I guess vindicated as an 1:08:11.280 --> 1:08:13.360 an R, like did you pick the right one that time? 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:19.400 I didn't because I wanted I signed to become a hit. 1:08:19.520 --> 1:08:22.719 So I had put a lot of faith in Quest 1:08:22.880 --> 1:08:26.800 and a lot of energy into Chino cell and Gino Excel. 1:08:26.880 --> 1:08:28.720 That was another story because he was part of a 1:08:28.840 --> 1:08:32.759 group called the Art of Origin, a duo from East Orange, 1:08:32.800 --> 1:08:36.880 New Jersey, and his partner was Carrie Chandler. Now, if 1:08:36.960 --> 1:08:41.280 you know the house music, carry Chandler was then an 1:08:41.320 --> 1:08:45.560 incredible deep house producer. But now he's a legendary, you know. 1:08:46.000 --> 1:08:48.920 And I learned so much about producing from Carrie. I mean, 1:08:48.960 --> 1:08:50.720 Carrie took me from here to there. 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:53.080 What happened with Chino's record? 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:56.880 I remember there was a got what was the It 1:08:57.000 --> 1:08:58.880 was a sample clearance that I think you guys had 1:08:58.960 --> 1:09:01.160 problems with because he's said it was a line about 1:09:01.160 --> 1:09:05.679 Miles Davis or something, and it was like everybody, yeah, yeah, 1:09:05.760 --> 1:09:07.639 he was talking everyone. 1:09:08.000 --> 1:09:11.679 I think lightly after after. 1:09:12.200 --> 1:09:14.599 You know, he had been trying to get a deal 1:09:14.720 --> 1:09:19.160 since nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety and it was already 1:09:19.320 --> 1:09:22.840 ninety four, ninety five, and he just had it. Says, 1:09:22.880 --> 1:09:24.400 you know what, I'm just going to tell the truth 1:09:24.800 --> 1:09:26.559 the way that I you know, I'm going to say 1:09:26.680 --> 1:09:29.800 what I what everybody's afraid to say. You know, the 1:09:29.920 --> 1:09:35.280 relationship between you know, Eddie Murphy and another actor who 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:38.599 should name unnamed. You know, like we made a poster, 1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:40.720 like a black and white poster out of all of 1:09:40.800 --> 1:09:44.280 his punchlines and really yeah, and that's what got him 1:09:44.320 --> 1:09:44.439 on it. 1:09:44.520 --> 1:09:48.160 And she was gonna say what offended to I don't 1:09:48.160 --> 1:09:52.840 know the line that offended. I know that it must 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:57.120 have got under his skin because I've never heard the 1:09:57.240 --> 1:10:02.680 words fuck you utter so hard and with like you 1:10:02.800 --> 1:10:07.200 heard the scheme of venom, fucking fucking what was? 1:10:07.479 --> 1:10:09.800 What was? Now that I am a professor at the 1:10:10.160 --> 1:10:14.959 Clive Davis Institute, I understand the importance of writing instruction 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:19.320 and the importance of a misplaced modifier. That's the problem 1:10:19.520 --> 1:10:25.800 with Gino, Excel and TUPAC because Chino said, by this industry, 1:10:26.479 --> 1:10:29.400 I'm trying not to get fucked like Tupac in jail. 1:10:30.200 --> 1:10:35.280 What he meant was Tupac's trying not to get fucked, right. 1:10:35.720 --> 1:10:41.080 But what was this is not this is a cactus 1:10:41.160 --> 1:10:43.320 turn had his mother out. Yeah, this is a second 1:10:43.360 --> 1:10:48.840 grammatical era. That's like some ship. This is a ship, 1:10:49.600 --> 1:10:51.800 That's what it was. Did they have you know, they 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:53.160 have to make bees there squashed? 1:10:54.120 --> 1:10:55.240 You know Tupac died. 1:10:55.920 --> 1:10:58.599 Yeah, because that's you're hears it all come out ninety five. 1:10:59.800 --> 1:11:00.479 I can't. 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:04.640 I do remember though, when Tupac died, Chino called me 1:11:04.680 --> 1:11:07.280 and he was crying because he really liked Tupac. I mean, 1:11:07.320 --> 1:11:09.519 he liked him as an m MC, he liked him 1:11:09.560 --> 1:11:13.360 as a lyricist. He I think he wished it had 1:11:13.760 --> 1:11:17.280 gone another way. And I remember going to we went 1:11:17.320 --> 1:11:23.080 to Vegas with James Lopez. Was when Mackavelly came out 1:11:23.600 --> 1:11:26.040 and James and I went up to the up to 1:11:26.120 --> 1:11:28.880 the room, and Chino stayed in the car just to 1:11:28.960 --> 1:11:32.120 listen to Macavelly alone, you know, like to have that moment. 1:11:34.120 --> 1:11:34.320 Yeah. 1:11:34.640 --> 1:11:39.160 Man, So after so your two main extitute signed Chino 1:11:39.360 --> 1:11:43.120 inquest and then baby got back like goes through the roof. 1:11:44.479 --> 1:11:46.720 The follow up to that album it was was it 1:11:47.920 --> 1:11:48.400 put him. 1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:52.080 On the Glass, which didn't become a huge hit, but 1:11:52.160 --> 1:11:54.160 it made Seinfeld, so that made me proud. 1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:56.320 The video. 1:11:57.560 --> 1:11:59.640 She's not going to put him on the glass. 1:12:01.760 --> 1:12:05.080 Because that was okay, mack Daddy was the baby Baby? 1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:08.120 What was that album? The one after to put them 1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:08.800 on a glass album? 1:12:09.880 --> 1:12:12.720 They'll make a liar out of me, Chief, Chief, Chief 1:12:12.760 --> 1:12:13.280 boot knocks. 1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:14.080 How do you know that? 1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:16.880 Chief? I could see it, but I couldn't call it. 1:12:17.120 --> 1:12:18.680 Was that the one with fake Louis on it? 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:20.719 That was Swap Meet Louis? 1:12:20.760 --> 1:12:23.439 That was mac Daddy. That was that was mack Daddy. 1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:25.599 Did you ever see the Lauras Tucker? 1:12:26.320 --> 1:12:26.720 Was that like that? 1:12:27.640 --> 1:12:30.040 No, we were not important or successful enough to ever. 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:33.080 That's the one good thing about my in R career 1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:35.080 sort of flew. 1:12:34.960 --> 1:12:40.080 Under the radar with old little Time Warner controversy, nothing. 1:12:39.880 --> 1:12:41.600 But I was there during that whole thing. I mean, 1:12:41.680 --> 1:12:43.240 that's actually one of the scenes that ended up in 1:12:43.280 --> 1:12:46.559 the book that Moe, Austin and Warnicker called a huge 1:12:46.600 --> 1:12:49.559 meeting of all of the important rap artists and their managers. 1:12:49.600 --> 1:12:53.519 So everybody came, Tom Silverman, came, Bill Stephanie came, uh Coolgie, 1:12:53.600 --> 1:12:57.000 Rap came, Ice t came Georgie, and Josa came. You know, 1:12:57.160 --> 1:12:59.559 everybody was in one room. Paris was in the room, 1:12:59.640 --> 1:13:03.600 right was so that this is for context. This is 1:13:03.640 --> 1:13:06.920 in nineteen ninety two. There's a big controversy over Ice 1:13:07.360 --> 1:13:11.679 ice teas heavy metals song with his heavy metal band 1:13:11.760 --> 1:13:17.840 body Count. Somehow rap music gets blamed for that, and 1:13:18.479 --> 1:13:23.479 so Warner has you know, been basically the board of 1:13:23.560 --> 1:13:26.200 Warner read the Riot Act to the music group and 1:13:26.960 --> 1:13:28.880 he said, listen, if we're going to have a lyrics 1:13:28.920 --> 1:13:30.800 board here, it's going to examine all the lyrics and 1:13:31.080 --> 1:13:33.639 if you don't want to you know, if you don't 1:13:33.680 --> 1:13:36.000 want to be put through that, we understand, and we're 1:13:36.040 --> 1:13:38.400 going to let you go right if you if you can, 1:13:38.600 --> 1:13:39.360 will release you. 1:13:39.640 --> 1:13:40.679 You know, no problem. 1:13:41.200 --> 1:13:43.160 Moe was a good guy and he was in a 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:45.439 really really bad position and put in a really bad 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:49.679 position by Bob Morgato and Jerry Livin who. 1:13:49.560 --> 1:13:50.880 Had you know, we're over him. 1:13:51.080 --> 1:13:51.920 How long did Elas? 1:13:53.280 --> 1:13:56.200 It didn't last long because once there were two phases 1:13:56.240 --> 1:13:58.240 to the culture Wars in the nineteen nineties, right, the 1:13:58.280 --> 1:14:00.439 first phase was nineteen ninety two, which was the Body 1:14:00.520 --> 1:14:03.920 count Cop Killer where the police unions all of the 1:14:03.960 --> 1:14:08.080 country were boycotting Time Warner. That subsided after the because 1:14:08.080 --> 1:14:09.840 that was an election year, right I was in Clinton 1:14:09.880 --> 1:14:14.040 got elected. Then it happened again. The ce Delores Tucker 1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:19.439 Face was like ninety five something like that, and her 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:22.799 big goal was to get Time Warner to drop Inner Scope, 1:14:23.840 --> 1:14:29.400 and she succeeded. But then Innerscope basically walked with all 1:14:29.439 --> 1:14:35.280 its masters and got paid double by Universal to set 1:14:35.360 --> 1:14:39.920 up shop over there. So I think everybody knew here, 1:14:40.040 --> 1:14:40.559 Oh you're. 1:14:42.560 --> 1:14:43.280 That actually scared me. 1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:48.639 Now you can't. In other words, it's you can't. It's 1:14:48.680 --> 1:14:50.360 like whack them all, you know, you beat it down 1:14:50.400 --> 1:14:51.840 over here, It's just going to end up over there. 1:14:52.479 --> 1:14:54.519 And so that ended pretty much ended the culture Wars. 1:14:54.880 --> 1:14:57.200 So when did you leave Deaf America? 1:14:57.680 --> 1:15:01.000 When Rick lost his Warner b Others deal when he 1:15:01.360 --> 1:15:03.679 sort of had got a smaller deal over at Sony 1:15:04.320 --> 1:15:10.000 in ninety god what year was it? Ninety seven? 1:15:11.320 --> 1:15:13.479 Okay, I won't to have a chance to ask him 1:15:13.720 --> 1:15:18.880 this unless he does the show, but would you happen 1:15:18.960 --> 1:15:24.000 to know what his opinion was of the Paul's Boutique record? 1:15:25.240 --> 1:15:28.280 Did he ever mention or the BC Boys at that 1:15:28.360 --> 1:15:29.640 point in that moment, like. 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:32.800 I'll tell you this, I can only give you sort 1:15:32.840 --> 1:15:35.880 of little vignettes, right. So the first vignette is me 1:15:36.640 --> 1:15:39.240 going to LA for the first time with Rick and 1:15:40.200 --> 1:15:43.760 him being in line at Club Lingerie I think it was, 1:15:43.840 --> 1:15:47.200 and like ad Rock is in front of us, you know, 1:15:47.600 --> 1:15:51.479 and just having a very terse conversation with him, like 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:55.759 these were best friends, you know, and they're being civil 1:15:55.840 --> 1:15:59.360 to each other, but there's no like, there's no connection there. 1:16:00.360 --> 1:16:03.679 The second vignette is a couple of years later, I'm 1:16:03.960 --> 1:16:06.519 walking around the office or whatever, and he stops me 1:16:06.560 --> 1:16:08.080 and he points to my shirt and he said, I 1:16:08.280 --> 1:16:11.840 like that shirt, that shirt that Adam would wear. And 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:14.040 I realized at that point of my mind went back 1:16:14.080 --> 1:16:16.240 to that first thing. I realized, he misses his friend, 1:16:16.360 --> 1:16:19.120 you know, but he just didn't know how to do 1:16:19.280 --> 1:16:21.400 the things he needed to do to keep that friend. 1:16:21.600 --> 1:16:21.760 You know. 1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:27.120 They were financial betrayals, there were you know, friendship betrayals. 1:16:28.360 --> 1:16:30.000 But I do know that he. 1:16:31.720 --> 1:16:36.080 I think he liked Paul's boutique. He really admired Matt Dyke, 1:16:36.320 --> 1:16:38.360 you know, Matt Dyke was his friend. And I think 1:16:38.560 --> 1:16:44.120 Dyke helped on that album a bit, but I think 1:16:44.240 --> 1:16:48.439 he was more sort of there was a little bit 1:16:48.439 --> 1:16:53.240 of shadenfreude because Paul's boutique lost money for capital, you know, 1:16:53.520 --> 1:16:56.720 because they had caused him so much tumult when they left, 1:16:57.479 --> 1:16:58.760 you know, So I mean. 1:16:59.680 --> 1:17:02.080 It was you a good businessman or was he a 1:17:02.240 --> 1:17:02.880 creative man? 1:17:03.400 --> 1:17:07.639 Rick is a creative man. There's no question. He didn't 1:17:07.680 --> 1:17:08.320 have a Russell. 1:17:08.640 --> 1:17:09.400 That's the problem. 1:17:09.800 --> 1:17:12.559 That's why that's why American Recordings did not do well 1:17:13.479 --> 1:17:16.519 really ever. I mean they had a few hits, but 1:17:17.120 --> 1:17:19.800 he didn't. He didn't have somebody, a partner who could 1:17:20.680 --> 1:17:22.720 do what Russell did, and that's why they were so 1:17:22.840 --> 1:17:30.839 good together. And you know, Russell never found a creative 1:17:30.880 --> 1:17:33.519 person like Rick again, but he found another kind of 1:17:33.560 --> 1:17:35.320 symbiotic relationship with Lee or. 1:17:36.520 --> 1:17:43.240 M Yeah, if you could call it symbiotic, but I 1:17:43.360 --> 1:17:47.680 would say it. So ninety seven you leave, uh, you 1:17:47.840 --> 1:17:51.120 leave American? Where do you go? From that point? 1:17:51.720 --> 1:17:53.800 I went to work for Forst Whittaker. Forst Whittaker was 1:17:53.840 --> 1:17:59.200 starting a record company, and yeah, Spirit Dance Music distributed 1:17:59.240 --> 1:18:02.280 through Epic, and I tried to sign the Far Side 1:18:03.000 --> 1:18:08.120 again in ninety seven because they wanted off of Delicious 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:10.439 Vinyl or whatever, and and I was trying to make 1:18:10.479 --> 1:18:12.080 a way from We ended up signing Trey. 1:18:13.760 --> 1:18:20.800 Oh just train from the Far Side. Oh Man, did 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:22.040 anything ever happened? 1:18:22.560 --> 1:18:22.600 No? 1:18:22.880 --> 1:18:28.400 Because with not Doogie howser? Uh, Parker Lewis can't lose. No, no, no, 1:18:28.520 --> 1:18:34.160 it wasn't. No, you're talking about Green? That was yeah? 1:18:34.920 --> 1:18:38.920 That was yep. Okay, that album actually wasn't bad. It 1:18:39.280 --> 1:18:41.240 wasn't It wasn't bad. I heard I heard it was 1:18:42.000 --> 1:18:46.000 you never heard it. But if you've heard everything not, 1:18:46.120 --> 1:18:48.080 that album wasn't bad. I mean, Bill, you'll be if 1:18:48.120 --> 1:18:49.720 you really knew what we were talking about. I just 1:18:49.800 --> 1:18:51.599 love that you got to Brian as the Green from 1:18:51.680 --> 1:18:57.519 Dougie House, you know White Boy TV. Come on, no, 1:18:57.680 --> 1:19:01.400 Brianross the Green. The album was called one Carnival. Yeah, 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:02.400 one Stop Calling. 1:19:03.240 --> 1:19:05.000 I do remember a video that do you send me? 1:19:05.160 --> 1:19:07.439 It was like Trey was singing on it. It was 1:19:07.479 --> 1:19:09.640 respectable joint. He was like the first Drake. He was 1:19:09.680 --> 1:19:15.960 like the first like TV star. No, damn, we haven't 1:19:16.040 --> 1:19:17.759 had a good rabbit hole in a second. 1:19:18.360 --> 1:19:21.360 You know what, though, when I work for Forrest, I 1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:33.960 tried like hell to sign Crosswalk, Crosswalk, Cody Chestnuts before, 1:19:35.560 --> 1:19:39.120 but it wasn't it was it was like Beatles esque rock. 1:19:39.240 --> 1:19:40.000 It was dope. 1:19:40.160 --> 1:19:44.200 He was dope, and uh, you know I remember seeing 1:19:44.280 --> 1:19:46.600 him live. This is really early on this before I 1:19:46.640 --> 1:19:49.000 think he was ever making music with you guys, and 1:19:49.800 --> 1:19:53.240 he's like this next song is white record Companies can't 1:19:53.280 --> 1:19:56.360 sign my group because of me, you know. 1:19:56.560 --> 1:19:59.760 Ship like that just funny and really good. And I 1:20:00.000 --> 1:20:03.200 bagged for us to sign him, and so so far 1:20:03.200 --> 1:20:05.400 as was really doing his business. It wasn't like a 1:20:05.640 --> 1:20:08.080 vanity thing where it's just like, no, it wasn't van anything, 1:20:10.320 --> 1:20:13.479 just like like Michael Jordan's wasn't hidden beat. 1:20:13.680 --> 1:20:16.800 Yeah, so Trey was like the start I was. 1:20:17.040 --> 1:20:22.760 That was Acclaim else they never released anybody Ghost. Uh, 1:20:22.960 --> 1:20:25.640 that was happening right when I was there. Actually there 1:20:25.840 --> 1:20:29.960 there was a film with Jim Jarmush and Rizza's first score. 1:20:30.920 --> 1:20:31.920 Yep, it was I remember. 1:20:31.960 --> 1:20:33.840 They were doing radio promotions behind that because they came 1:20:33.880 --> 1:20:35.280 to see is Rizza and Forrest. 1:20:35.920 --> 1:20:38.200 But that's when I decided I kind of had enough 1:20:38.280 --> 1:20:39.160 for the music business. 1:20:40.720 --> 1:20:43.280 You wanted to tell them about themselves. I wanted to 1:20:43.320 --> 1:20:45.559 write again. So since I was in LA. 1:20:45.760 --> 1:20:48.680 The first thing I did was, you know when you 1:20:48.880 --> 1:20:50.280 when you're in l A and you want to write, 1:20:50.320 --> 1:20:52.040 you you tend to think of writing for the screen. 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:53.920 So I ended up writing for the Lyricist Lounge show 1:20:54.720 --> 1:20:57.360 and and then for You'll Love This be ET's Comic View. 1:20:58.560 --> 1:21:02.200 Comic View, they had sketch comedy for a little while, 1:21:03.320 --> 1:21:06.120 so I helped out for a season. 1:21:06.200 --> 1:21:07.200 How was that experience? 1:21:07.360 --> 1:21:10.120 It was great? I mean I loved writing comedy and 1:21:10.200 --> 1:21:11.679 in a way it set me up for the breaks 1:21:11.960 --> 1:21:14.880 later on, you know, just in terms of that being 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:17.719 in a room of writers, really really funny people Alison 1:21:17.800 --> 1:21:21.439 Foos and oh Man, they're just really you know a 1:21:21.479 --> 1:21:23.160 lot of them had worked for a Living Color and 1:21:23.240 --> 1:21:23.920 I just learned a lot. 1:21:24.000 --> 1:21:26.439 Well, Lyris's Lounge was phenomenal, like that was a that 1:21:26.600 --> 1:21:30.320 was the that's where I don't know what, and. 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:35.639 Most words were like he had a chance to write 1:21:35.680 --> 1:21:38.960 with most a little bit like not like on the 1:21:39.000 --> 1:21:40.800 sketch side. So he wrote the rhymes and I sort 1:21:40.840 --> 1:21:43.280 of contributed ideas for the sketch, but most came, and 1:21:43.400 --> 1:21:47.120 common came, and Erica came. It was a really good, 1:21:47.520 --> 1:21:48.280 really good tough. 1:21:49.600 --> 1:21:51.280 I believe there did an episode or not. 1:21:52.280 --> 1:21:53.440 I don't remember. 1:21:57.520 --> 1:22:00.960 When did you know you were funny in the realm 1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:02.920 of you? You've had a lot of hats. Okay, So 1:22:03.040 --> 1:22:05.280 what I'm just saying, Well, well, here's. 1:22:05.120 --> 1:22:05.680 What I used to do. 1:22:05.800 --> 1:22:07.439 I used to do this segment, you know, the wake 1:22:07.520 --> 1:22:09.519 up show, King Tech and Sweat. So I used to 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:13.080 do this thing where I would read, I would read 1:22:13.280 --> 1:22:15.960 like the Steve Allen gag right, I would read rap 1:22:16.120 --> 1:22:19.240 lyrics as poetry and I ended up doing a bunch 1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:21.479 of sketches for them, and so that led to the 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:23.679 gig with with lyrics. 1:22:24.840 --> 1:22:26.760 Why did you think that worked? Man? Because I thought 1:22:26.880 --> 1:22:29.320 that was I mean, I thought it costs too much. 1:22:30.040 --> 1:22:32.080 Did great in the arratings, but it costs too much 1:22:32.160 --> 1:22:32.439 to make. 1:22:32.680 --> 1:22:36.320 What would the what would the twelve hours late? 1:22:38.080 --> 1:22:40.640 I think he was on time. I think he was. 1:22:42.479 --> 1:22:43.200 In South Africa. 1:22:44.800 --> 1:22:48.320 You what was the what was the what was you wait, 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:51.120 fooling nobody? He was. There was like a presidential debate 1:22:51.200 --> 1:22:54.720 between him and uh master fool remember yeah, I. 1:22:54.760 --> 1:22:57.840 Mean f u o l oh my god? What what? 1:22:58.080 --> 1:22:59.760 Why was it so expensive? What were the what were 1:22:59.800 --> 1:23:00.559 the call involved? 1:23:00.880 --> 1:23:04.320 Just sketch comedy, wardrobe and Union, and I mean it 1:23:04.479 --> 1:23:06.800 was a real production and it was not something that 1:23:07.040 --> 1:23:10.000 MTV was used to doing. I mean they were doing 1:23:10.080 --> 1:23:12.639 reality shows which are just bank Yeah. 1:23:12.920 --> 1:23:14.920 Yeah, what was it about TV that you love? Because 1:23:14.920 --> 1:23:16.479 I mean at some point you were like, I'm staying. 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:21.000 The ability to write something and then have it uh 1:23:21.680 --> 1:23:25.080 you know produced and on TV media it was so 1:23:25.400 --> 1:23:29.560 immediate and I got a chance to actually act and 1:23:30.040 --> 1:23:32.000 like to be a part of that thing, and. 1:23:32.040 --> 1:23:34.760 That was It was dope. It was his favorite jobs. 1:23:34.800 --> 1:23:38.439 It's also ahead of his time because MTV still has 1:23:39.360 --> 1:23:46.639 uh next show while 'nout yeah, which the cheaper version, 1:23:46.880 --> 1:23:50.439 much cheaper version. But no, yeah, it was I think 1:23:50.479 --> 1:23:53.400 it's a show that would do much better now in 1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:58.720 like the snapchat you know, uh meme era then you 1:23:58.800 --> 1:23:59.400 know back then. 1:24:00.120 --> 1:24:02.760 So at some point you decide, okay, you want to 1:24:02.920 --> 1:24:08.600 you're writing. When does the I guess the beginnings of 1:24:09.200 --> 1:24:12.840 the Big payback the Bible, Like when does when do 1:24:12.920 --> 1:24:13.679 you start writing? 1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:17.200 It started when I wanted to do hip hop journalism again, 1:24:17.439 --> 1:24:21.000 and so I pitched, Uh, I pitched an article that 1:24:21.200 --> 1:24:24.519 nobody would buy. Vibe wouldn't Vibe wasn't interested in it. 1:24:24.640 --> 1:24:27.240 Double XL wasn't interested in it. It was called Last Night, 1:24:27.280 --> 1:24:30.360 a DJ Saved My Business, and it was about these 1:24:31.160 --> 1:24:34.439 guys who owned these disco labels in the eighties who 1:24:34.920 --> 1:24:37.320 thought they were going to be disco kings and ended 1:24:37.360 --> 1:24:40.000 up wrap fell into their laps and saved their asses. Basically, 1:24:40.080 --> 1:24:43.240 So we're talking about Corey Robbins, a profile, Tom Silverman, 1:24:44.000 --> 1:24:49.920 Tommy Boy, Fredmanao at Select right, the the record companies 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:53.120 that basically funded the golden age of hip hop. Unwittingly 1:24:53.360 --> 1:24:56.439 they didn't because they weren't you know, they became hip 1:24:56.439 --> 1:24:59.360 hop fans, but they weren't of hip hop. So nobody 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:03.800 cared about it. And so I decided at one point 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:05.639 that I really really missed New York and I wanted 1:25:05.680 --> 1:25:11.120 to come home. And so I just remember I was 1:25:11.200 --> 1:25:14.000 at a party with an editor of yet another magazine, 1:25:14.920 --> 1:25:18.160 and I was pitching this article at him, and he 1:25:18.360 --> 1:25:21.559 turned away from me in mid pitch and walked away. 1:25:22.320 --> 1:25:22.599 Damn. 1:25:22.760 --> 1:25:26.000 And I was like, all right, you know what, maybe 1:25:26.040 --> 1:25:30.639 this is a book. So I had enrolled at Columbia 1:25:30.680 --> 1:25:33.960 Journalism School to get my masters, and I did a 1:25:34.000 --> 1:25:35.960 lot of things there, like I ended up I did 1:25:36.040 --> 1:25:39.759 my master's project in the West Bank in Palestine. 1:25:39.320 --> 1:25:39.400 And. 1:25:41.080 --> 1:25:42.519 I was either going to do a book on that 1:25:43.080 --> 1:25:46.280 or I was going to do this hip hop business history, 1:25:46.280 --> 1:25:49.200 and so it ended up being that. And my mentor 1:25:49.280 --> 1:25:53.280 there was the great Sam Friedman, who teaches this book 1:25:53.320 --> 1:25:56.320 writing class every year and only twenty five people a year. 1:25:56.439 --> 1:25:58.240 Getting you have to pitch him a book I did 1:25:58.280 --> 1:25:59.000 to get into. 1:25:58.840 --> 1:26:02.240 The class, and was the big payback was that your pitch. 1:26:02.720 --> 1:26:04.800 The big payback was it was called Beats, Rhymes and 1:26:04.880 --> 1:26:08.000 cash at first, right, And so I got in and 1:26:08.120 --> 1:26:10.200 then the very first day we're supposed to bring in 1:26:10.600 --> 1:26:15.080 like a sample chapter, and NPR is taping the class 1:26:15.200 --> 1:26:17.800 for a piece on the class because like so many 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:20.280 people get published out of this class, and so on 1:26:20.520 --> 1:26:22.479 NPR to this day, there is a First of all, 1:26:22.520 --> 1:26:26.479 I won the Cliche Award, like every the most most 1:26:26.520 --> 1:26:31.000 cliches per It was like, you know, so I having 1:26:31.040 --> 1:26:33.679 a bad day anyway, And we got into this argument 1:26:33.720 --> 1:26:36.280 about whether old school was a cliche or a genre, 1:26:36.600 --> 1:26:38.320 and I was maintaining it was a genre, and he 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:40.439 was maintaining it was a cliche. And he says, and 1:26:40.520 --> 1:26:42.840 this is still on NPR ten years later, he says, 1:26:43.160 --> 1:26:45.320 as they say on the basketball as they say on 1:26:45.400 --> 1:26:48.240 the basketball court, Dan, stop bringing that weak shit. 1:26:49.280 --> 1:26:54.439 Dang, that's my, that's my. But he's the guy. He's 1:26:54.479 --> 1:26:58.719 like that tough love Sorry, he's. 1:26:58.560 --> 1:27:01.760 Like that tough love teacher that got that treatment out 1:27:01.760 --> 1:27:03.679 of me. And I got out of that class. 1:27:04.240 --> 1:27:04.360 You know. 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:07.840 A month later that treatment was sold, and then I 1:27:07.920 --> 1:27:10.120 spent the next three years reporting the book. 1:27:10.360 --> 1:27:10.920 So how did you? 1:27:11.120 --> 1:27:12.880 How did that make you a better writer? Because I've 1:27:12.960 --> 1:27:17.160 only known you, I only know you now, So what 1:27:17.360 --> 1:27:18.920 did that class do for you as a writer? How 1:27:18.960 --> 1:27:19.719 did it make you stronger? 1:27:20.840 --> 1:27:24.439 Just pouring over every word in every comma, trying to 1:27:24.479 --> 1:27:28.720 make every sentence as as elegant and efficient as it 1:27:28.800 --> 1:27:32.599 can be. You know, every every sentence has a function, 1:27:32.720 --> 1:27:34.720 Every word has a function. But even more than that, 1:27:35.240 --> 1:27:37.760 I kept getting sidetracked because I'm a nerd, you know, 1:27:37.960 --> 1:27:40.760 about music, and I wanted to talk about the emergence 1:27:40.800 --> 1:27:43.000 of the AO eight drum machine, and I wanted to 1:27:43.040 --> 1:27:46.519 take these divergent paths into what Marley did and how 1:27:46.600 --> 1:27:48.360 much the bridge was so important. 1:27:48.400 --> 1:27:54.760 You sound a lot like somebody I know. Yea, So. 1:28:00.160 --> 1:28:06.439 He says, right there, So he says, Dan, it's about 1:28:06.439 --> 1:28:08.719 the music. Sorry, he says, Dan, It's about the business, 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:11.360 not the music. It's about the business. It's about the business. 1:28:11.400 --> 1:28:14.800 He kept saying that mantra to me, and and so 1:28:15.120 --> 1:28:18.200 I listened to him, and that's I remember that first chapter. 1:28:18.280 --> 1:28:20.960 I turned and he says, you can't write this chapter 1:28:21.080 --> 1:28:25.479 without getting the voices of Sylvia Robinson and Bobby Robinson, 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:28.120 Like I need to know what they were doing while 1:28:28.240 --> 1:28:31.240 jay Z was getting his Grammy Where were they not Grammy? 1:28:31.280 --> 1:28:31.400 Oh? 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:32.880 Sorry? When he was at the Rock and Roll Hall 1:28:32.880 --> 1:28:36.880 of Fame awarding the uh you know, the Grandmaster Flash 1:28:36.880 --> 1:28:39.200 of the Furious Five for the first people to get inducted. 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:41.519 So that was a motif for the book. J D 1:28:41.720 --> 1:28:45.799 was a jay Z was inducting them, and he wanted 1:28:45.880 --> 1:28:48.800 to He knew the reader would want to know where 1:28:48.920 --> 1:28:51.240 the founding mother and one of the founding fathers of 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:54.360 the business were at that moment, and if all the 1:28:54.520 --> 1:28:58.960 listeners were big Sylvia was in the hospital and Bobby 1:28:59.040 --> 1:29:00.640 Robinson was at home watch them. 1:29:01.400 --> 1:29:05.479 So do you acknowledge this as the hip hop Bible? 1:29:05.960 --> 1:29:06.000 No? 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:10.280 I kind of see it more as the the forty 1:29:10.560 --> 1:29:13.680 forty eight Laws of Power. You know that that one 1:29:13.760 --> 1:29:17.640 book that every guy that went to jail has that like, like, 1:29:18.120 --> 1:29:20.639 it's no, I don't mean your book. I'm just saying, 1:29:20.680 --> 1:29:23.720 like you, I always see the forty eight Laws of 1:29:23.800 --> 1:29:27.519 Power book and every like when Jay first got his 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:31.000 office at Deaf Chair that book, I was like, are 1:29:31.040 --> 1:29:34.840 you strategically placed in this areas? He had a nerf 1:29:34.920 --> 1:29:40.160 ball and it's forty eight Loss of Power book. But 1:29:40.479 --> 1:29:46.080 I mean it is very informative and and sort of 1:29:46.160 --> 1:29:52.519 detailing people's journeys. And why did you feel that was important? 1:29:52.840 --> 1:29:55.439 Because it wasn't out there or hip hop is so 1:29:55.720 --> 1:29:58.040 big that there are so many stories you can tell 1:29:58.080 --> 1:30:00.559 about it. And I couldn't have written my book without 1:30:00.600 --> 1:30:03.360 Jeff Chang having written Can't Stop the Albums Right? And 1:30:03.560 --> 1:30:06.720 I couldn't have written it without Brian Coleman having done 1:30:06.920 --> 1:30:10.759 check the technique. And not to even mention the smaller 1:30:10.840 --> 1:30:14.920 books that that the earlier ones that you know, David 1:30:15.000 --> 1:30:18.559 Tube had done and Nelson George had done a pretty 1:30:18.600 --> 1:30:21.040 good book hip Hip Hop America. I think it was 1:30:21.080 --> 1:30:25.720 called UH. And then of course like the smaller uh, 1:30:27.000 --> 1:30:29.160 you know, the books on smaller parts of the subject, 1:30:29.240 --> 1:30:30.519 like Ronan Roe's book on. 1:30:32.040 --> 1:30:32.240 Yeah. 1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:35.280 So all of them are really important, and and I 1:30:35.479 --> 1:30:39.040 stand on the shoulders of all those folks. But my 1:30:39.240 --> 1:30:43.719 issue was people really didn't understand that hip hop almost 1:30:43.840 --> 1:30:47.479 didn't happen, right. They didn't understand like when I would 1:30:47.560 --> 1:30:50.840 read accounts of hip hop history, it was almost like 1:30:52.360 --> 1:30:55.280 run DMC made a record and then they were huge, right, 1:30:55.360 --> 1:30:58.680 And that's not how it happened. People fought tooth and 1:30:58.840 --> 1:31:03.800 nail to make this stuff successful. It almost didn't happen. 1:31:03.960 --> 1:31:06.439 I mean, when we think about New York in nineteen 1:31:06.560 --> 1:31:11.559 ninety radio was backing away from hip hop all over, right, 1:31:12.240 --> 1:31:18.040 mix shows were going away, So we were hot ninety 1:31:18.080 --> 1:31:20.519 seven as we know it, you know today was felt 1:31:20.560 --> 1:31:23.880 a million light years away. But people fought for it, 1:31:24.000 --> 1:31:25.960 and so people I wanted to tell the story of 1:31:25.960 --> 1:31:29.680 people like Keith Naftali, the very first pop radio programmer 1:31:30.080 --> 1:31:34.360 to play hardcore hip hop in the daytime. We're talking NWA, 1:31:34.760 --> 1:31:38.880 Public Enemy, and other pop programmers across the country like 1:31:39.000 --> 1:31:41.960 Rick D's you know, thought it was laughable, you know 1:31:42.680 --> 1:31:46.680 that dangerous even and he did it, and he was 1:31:46.760 --> 1:31:50.000 so successful that he convinced other radio programmers eventually that 1:31:50.120 --> 1:31:53.360 this was, you know, something that was worth doing and 1:31:53.680 --> 1:31:58.360 ended decades of segregation in radio because of it. So 1:31:58.960 --> 1:32:01.639 I felt like that was the important story to tell 1:32:01.720 --> 1:32:03.280 just for hip hop's sake. And then it's a great 1:32:03.320 --> 1:32:07.200 American story, you know. That's why it starts with Alexander 1:32:07.240 --> 1:32:12.000 Hamilton because I believe it embodies the same ethos. 1:32:12.240 --> 1:32:16.280 Can I ask, so since you were in Los Angeles 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:23.280 for the greater part of the nineties, I mean, of course. Now, 1:32:23.760 --> 1:32:29.920 it's just it's such a different way, different feelium vibe 1:32:33.000 --> 1:32:39.280 and quick, quick backstory. So usually when guests come on, 1:32:39.479 --> 1:32:43.000 notable guests, especially New York based guests, come on the show, 1:32:43.720 --> 1:32:49.280 I'm always fascinated. One of the common denominator stories and 1:32:49.360 --> 1:32:52.880 experiences they have is they always have a tunnel not 1:32:53.000 --> 1:32:57.400 a tunnel Latin court iss story to tell. But for me, 1:32:57.560 --> 1:33:00.599 it's like, I'm more amazed to the fact that they're 1:33:00.680 --> 1:33:04.840 willing to court this danger and almost romanticize about this 1:33:05.040 --> 1:33:11.479 period in which from my protected childhood eyes, it's like, Yo, 1:33:11.720 --> 1:33:14.280 why would you even go to a building and you 1:33:14.680 --> 1:33:18.760 might might be shot? Is it really that much? Is 1:33:18.800 --> 1:33:23.080 it really worth it to hear? Nobody beats the biz? Like, like, 1:33:23.240 --> 1:33:25.200 do you if that's the only place you're going you 1:33:25.240 --> 1:33:29.120 know you can hear it. Yeah, well that said living. 1:33:31.960 --> 1:33:35.120 I mean I remember, like now when I go to La, 1:33:35.160 --> 1:33:37.519 it's such a joyful feeling, like I'm going to LA 1:33:37.600 --> 1:33:41.800 and like I enjoy that feeling of landing you know La. Oh, 1:33:42.600 --> 1:33:44.679 you know, hang with my friends and go to nice 1:33:44.720 --> 1:33:47.360 restaurants and it's fun. But there was a period in 1:33:47.680 --> 1:33:51.040 LA where it's like, you know, we used to always 1:33:51.080 --> 1:33:55.320 make sure we don't wear no blue, no red. Know 1:33:55.439 --> 1:33:58.880 where you you know, just know where you stand, don't 1:33:58.960 --> 1:34:04.360 cross anybody, you know, Mad Shug sightings Mad. 1:34:05.360 --> 1:34:05.920 It was like that. 1:34:06.080 --> 1:34:09.160 Yo. It's like Santha Nico so in to be in 1:34:09.640 --> 1:34:18.040 La during the period of Shug's rain, where any moment 1:34:18.160 --> 1:34:21.800 could be the moment where you could get got Like 1:34:22.080 --> 1:34:24.720 what was that like in that period? Like was it 1:34:25.000 --> 1:34:28.880 an enjoyable time or did you feel like you were 1:34:28.960 --> 1:34:32.320 so out of the circle that you could I wasn't 1:34:32.360 --> 1:34:34.800 that close to power, I guess in that way. And 1:34:35.000 --> 1:34:37.640 I didn't fetish death row, you know what I mean. 1:34:37.720 --> 1:34:38.080 I didn't. 1:34:38.560 --> 1:34:42.040 I didn't want to be around those folks. I didn't 1:34:42.080 --> 1:34:42.519 you know what I mean, You. 1:34:42.520 --> 1:34:44.760 Couldn't avoid it, Like the roots are the furthest thing 1:34:44.800 --> 1:34:49.479 from death row. But you know, Sugar and Pok once 1:34:49.560 --> 1:34:51.720 came to a show and I swear to God, even 1:34:51.800 --> 1:34:55.800 the air just suck out the room like it was 1:34:55.920 --> 1:35:03.640 like it was like unavoidable. So how like, how did 1:35:03.680 --> 1:35:08.479 you manage m a atmosphere and musically magical but also 1:35:09.680 --> 1:35:10.679 questionable as. 1:35:10.600 --> 1:35:14.760 Far as being naive and also the feeling that it's 1:35:15.200 --> 1:35:18.240 it was normal, you know, like when you're you know, 1:35:18.320 --> 1:35:20.120 that whole thing about the frog and water or whatever, 1:35:20.160 --> 1:35:24.160 and you you know, it was just that was part 1:35:24.200 --> 1:35:28.160 of the environment. And I I just also have this 1:35:28.240 --> 1:35:31.280 philosophy that bullies go away. You know, if you wait 1:35:31.360 --> 1:35:34.960 long enough, they're going to fuck themselves up. So seven 1:35:35.040 --> 1:35:39.759 years man, well, you know, in terms of his power, 1:35:40.000 --> 1:35:43.960 you know, his power was very short. And it turns 1:35:44.000 --> 1:35:45.600 out a lot of the things that people think he 1:35:45.720 --> 1:35:49.360 did or legendary you know that he did, didn't do. 1:35:50.120 --> 1:35:50.320 Yeah. 1:35:51.360 --> 1:35:54.080 Now I'm like, yeah, I didn't, he didn't. 1:35:54.120 --> 1:35:57.000 I mean, you know, did you have first an experiences 1:35:57.080 --> 1:36:03.200 with any besides Russell? And uh? I mean first hand 1:36:03.280 --> 1:36:07.080 experience is non interview, but just like and just daily 1:36:07.200 --> 1:36:10.720 interaction with any of the uh, the subject matters that 1:36:10.840 --> 1:36:17.479 you profiled. Like as far as you being in the business, well, 1:36:17.800 --> 1:36:20.000 there are a few run ins with Dame Moore that 1:36:20.280 --> 1:36:23.280 that's sort of There's just a few. 1:36:23.200 --> 1:36:25.880 Things that you know in the book that I was 1:36:26.000 --> 1:36:26.479 present for. 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:27.120 Right. 1:36:27.280 --> 1:36:29.760 So there's that meeting, you know, that big cabal meeting, 1:36:30.040 --> 1:36:32.200 you know, I mean there's that. You know that that 1:36:32.680 --> 1:36:35.479 that fake email that's been going around for years about 1:36:35.520 --> 1:36:38.840 the secret meeting in la you know where the prison 1:36:38.920 --> 1:36:42.720 industrial complex and getting all the rappers this like. 1:36:42.760 --> 1:36:46.040 That wasn't really I. 1:36:46.080 --> 1:36:48.680 Mean, but I did attend the real meeting, which was 1:36:48.800 --> 1:36:50.760 you know, mo Austin calling all of his artists, the 1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:53.920 extended family of artists and into a conference room and saying, look, 1:36:54.280 --> 1:36:56.000 here's the deal, you know, And it was a very 1:36:56.240 --> 1:36:58.960 sad meeting. You know, I think he was sad as 1:36:59.040 --> 1:37:01.920 the person who signed to Prince and Joni Mitchell and 1:37:02.240 --> 1:37:06.360 James Taylor and you know all these other Jimmy Hendrix 1:37:06.479 --> 1:37:09.280 held uh you know, to be in that position it 1:37:09.400 --> 1:37:12.439 was humiliating for him. And then I was the person 1:37:12.479 --> 1:37:16.800 who had to go and basically create a dummy record 1:37:16.880 --> 1:37:22.000 company for Paris because Paris had gotten dropped off of 1:37:22.160 --> 1:37:25.559 his And Rick said, I'm gonna put him on I'm 1:37:25.600 --> 1:37:27.160 gonna put on an American, but I can't put him 1:37:27.160 --> 1:37:28.760 on Americans. So we're going to create a whole new 1:37:29.240 --> 1:37:31.800 label for him. So I went to the Bay Area 1:37:31.880 --> 1:37:34.759 basically helped create a label for Paris. 1:37:35.240 --> 1:37:39.280 Came scarface, scarface because that was that the one that's 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:41.400 sleeping with the enemy came out on which which Ricord 1:37:41.520 --> 1:37:43.560 was it? Was it because that was the one he 1:37:43.640 --> 1:37:44.800 wanted to call bush Killer. 1:37:45.280 --> 1:37:51.800 Originally I think bush Killer remained dude, but uh, I 1:37:51.920 --> 1:37:59.400 have to actually read The Big Payback to remember. So 1:37:59.720 --> 1:38:02.439 after this you write the Big Payback? Was it anyone 1:38:03.240 --> 1:38:06.080 that was reluctant to talk to you? Like anyone that 1:38:06.200 --> 1:38:07.320 was just like nah. 1:38:08.320 --> 1:38:11.000 Yeah, it just writes itself. 1:38:14.040 --> 1:38:17.320 There were people like I really wanted to talk to 1:38:17.720 --> 1:38:25.080 Cindy Campbell, like Kirk's sister, because Jeff had done herk 1:38:25.240 --> 1:38:28.360 right the artist, but I wanted a profile the business side, 1:38:28.800 --> 1:38:31.600 and I approached Cindy Campbell and she wanted money, and 1:38:31.680 --> 1:38:33.679 I said this, I just don't do that. I'm a journalist. 1:38:33.720 --> 1:38:36.360 I don't pay anybody for an interview. So by you know, 1:38:37.600 --> 1:38:40.760 and obviously you're never gonna get Jay. You know, Jay 1:38:40.840 --> 1:38:43.320 Z in a room to interview him. So what you 1:38:43.560 --> 1:38:46.640 do is you report around people as a journalist. You 1:38:47.280 --> 1:38:49.800 started the edges, and you go around and around in circles, circle, 1:38:49.840 --> 1:38:53.080 and finally there's only one person left right, and you 1:38:53.160 --> 1:38:55.000 can say to that person, you know, I'm not saying 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:57.840 that I did this with Jay Z, but I'm about to, 1:38:58.520 --> 1:39:00.479 you know, release a book that has a after on 1:39:00.680 --> 1:39:02.920 you or a section on you. I want to give 1:39:02.960 --> 1:39:04.760 you a chance to hear it before it goes out, 1:39:05.800 --> 1:39:09.479 you know, and comment on it. So usually you know, 1:39:09.600 --> 1:39:11.400 people will want to hear what you're going to write 1:39:11.400 --> 1:39:14.360 about them, and if you approach them respectfully. And whenever 1:39:14.439 --> 1:39:18.519 I interviewed somebody for the book, I always, you know, 1:39:18.640 --> 1:39:24.040 I always uh offer them a readback, just because it's 1:39:24.040 --> 1:39:24.479 their story. 1:39:24.600 --> 1:39:27.400 So you never just do it blind. Just like everyone 1:39:27.680 --> 1:39:31.080 got yeah, they know, they knew what it was going 1:39:31.160 --> 1:39:31.679 to be before. 1:39:31.760 --> 1:39:32.679 Absolutely. Yeah. 1:39:33.600 --> 1:39:35.880 There were people who were mad. More more people were 1:39:35.920 --> 1:39:38.000 mad when they got left out of the book. 1:39:38.080 --> 1:39:43.120 I was going to say, like it wasn't disrespect no, 1:39:43.280 --> 1:39:43.720 no at all. 1:39:44.439 --> 1:39:46.080 Search was mad at me for a little while because 1:39:46.080 --> 1:39:48.000 he gave me a lot of time and I the 1:39:48.080 --> 1:39:50.040 section that he was in ended up getting cut and 1:39:50.400 --> 1:39:51.800 I apologize to him over that. 1:39:52.360 --> 1:39:54.040 Now search has a lot of stories. 1:39:55.040 --> 1:39:56.720 Great, he was great and he's still great. 1:39:56.720 --> 1:40:00.160 We'll put it this way. We barely got to the 1:40:00.280 --> 1:40:05.519 Cactus CD for de second album. Yeah, we barely got 1:40:05.560 --> 1:40:07.920 to Derrelick's dialect before. It's like, oh, hey's trying to 1:40:07.960 --> 1:40:09.280 wrap like three hours. 1:40:09.400 --> 1:40:10.479 Talk about the Latin Quarter. 1:40:11.400 --> 1:40:17.839 Yeah, yes, the quintessential Latin Quarter stories, the Big Pigback. 1:40:17.960 --> 1:40:21.760 So how does this go from because now you've never 1:40:21.800 --> 1:40:24.639 even told me this story, I don't know. How does 1:40:24.720 --> 1:40:30.639 that go from book to movie to series on h one? Okay, 1:40:30.760 --> 1:40:31.559 what was that journey? 1:40:31.680 --> 1:40:31.720 Like? 1:40:32.560 --> 1:40:35.360 Even before the book came out, there were some Hollywood 1:40:35.400 --> 1:40:38.000 types calling, you know, hey, like a meeting whatever, and 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:41.280 you know, so originally I wanted to do it. Have 1:40:41.280 --> 1:40:43.760 you ever seen the HBO movie The Late Shift, Yes, 1:40:44.080 --> 1:40:48.599 about the whole letter let fight. Yeah, so I wanted 1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:54.280 to do a you know, a drama, but with the 1:40:54.400 --> 1:40:59.840 real characters, right a Rick Russell dre you know, hiring 1:41:00.000 --> 1:41:02.680 actors to play the real people. And that's a real 1:41:02.720 --> 1:41:04.800 problem for Hollywood, Like they have to buy all kinds 1:41:04.840 --> 1:41:07.400 of life rights even though it may be true. You know, 1:41:08.080 --> 1:41:13.439 so Eventually it came down to, you know, that wasn't 1:41:13.479 --> 1:41:15.200 going to happen, and I sort of gave up because 1:41:15.200 --> 1:41:18.400 I didn't. I didn't want to do a fictional, fictionalized 1:41:18.479 --> 1:41:20.200 version of hip hop history. It was coiny to me, 1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:24.200 you know, especially because anytime you had a portrayal of 1:41:24.280 --> 1:41:28.000 hip hop in some dramatic fashion, it was always like 1:41:28.240 --> 1:41:32.560 just wrong. Like I remember the Sopranos had Bokeen Woodbine 1:41:32.720 --> 1:41:42.240 as massive genius, right, like I didn't want to do that, 1:41:42.760 --> 1:41:45.320 you know, and and to make how you're gonna make 1:41:45.360 --> 1:41:48.200 the music sound good period, right, And this is where 1:41:48.280 --> 1:41:56.400 you come in. So what happened was actually Boz Lherman 1:41:58.920 --> 1:42:03.280 to Boz Lehman. You know, my people have read my 1:42:03.360 --> 1:42:06.000 team has read your book, and my team has read 1:42:06.040 --> 1:42:08.320 your book, and team told me I should meet with you. 1:42:08.439 --> 1:42:11.000 And this was in the early stages of what would 1:42:11.040 --> 1:42:13.160 be come to get down. But he was in the 1:42:13.200 --> 1:42:15.920 middle of doing Gatsby. He was very nice. But what 1:42:16.360 --> 1:42:19.200 happened was I had an opportunity at VH one to 1:42:19.240 --> 1:42:22.439 pitch them, but I could only pitch them if it 1:42:22.560 --> 1:42:27.680 was a dramatic, you know, fictionalized dramatic. So I just 1:42:27.760 --> 1:42:29.560 did it. I came up with a story. You know, 1:42:29.600 --> 1:42:31.519 I eventually got over myself, and I came up with 1:42:31.560 --> 1:42:36.320 a story about three college friends who graduate in the 1:42:36.360 --> 1:42:39.400 summer of nineteen ninety. Sort of aligns with my own 1:42:39.920 --> 1:42:42.479 personal story. But also I think it's a really really 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:45.240 important time in hip hop. It's like that time where 1:42:45.280 --> 1:42:47.960 it could have become everything or nothing. Right. 1:42:48.040 --> 1:42:49.000 It was the year that. 1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:55.120 Run DMC and Beastie Boys were blown away in sales 1:42:55.200 --> 1:42:57.840 by Hammer and Vanilla Ice, and it looked like the 1:42:57.960 --> 1:43:01.320 future was going to be this minstrel show, right, So 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:04.040 UH shout out to a little brother. 1:43:06.200 --> 1:43:09.280 So he bought. 1:43:10.640 --> 1:43:11.000 But I'm not. 1:43:12.760 --> 1:43:14.240 Now let's talk about it, okay. 1:43:15.439 --> 1:43:21.599 So Uh, I worked on the on the on the pitch, 1:43:21.760 --> 1:43:23.880 and I pitched it in a room in about ten 1:43:23.960 --> 1:43:27.200 minutes and they bought it. And then there's the long 1:43:27.400 --> 1:43:31.200 process of developing it. And the first part of development 1:43:31.240 --> 1:43:34.479 is to find a director, writer who can actually get 1:43:34.520 --> 1:43:37.080 this stuff on the screen. And I just I wasn't 1:43:37.200 --> 1:43:41.599 selling myself as that person, so I remained as an 1:43:41.640 --> 1:43:44.640 executive producer. But seeth Man was the the guy we 1:43:44.800 --> 1:43:46.680 luckily found to helmet. 1:43:46.520 --> 1:43:50.240 And Seeth is uh for those Seeth is a god 1:43:50.400 --> 1:43:54.040 TV director. He's done Man, several episodes of The Wire, 1:43:54.720 --> 1:43:56.560 He's done did he do? Did he work on t 1:43:56.920 --> 1:43:57.200 did he do? 1:43:57.720 --> 1:44:00.280 Or did? But he did Walking Dead? I want to 1:44:00.320 --> 1:44:04.280 believe and Elementary at least did. 1:44:06.360 --> 1:44:08.920 He Yeah, I don't want to give that away with you. 1:44:10.240 --> 1:44:12.720 So Seith is great and Seeth, you know, I grew 1:44:12.760 --> 1:44:14.679 up in Columbia, Maryland. He grew up in Silver Spring. 1:44:14.760 --> 1:44:17.000 Were up listening to the same stations. We both listen 1:44:17.040 --> 1:44:19.360 to hip hop and and and Go go, and so 1:44:19.560 --> 1:44:22.400 we have even though he's like seven feet tall and 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:25.360 I'm four feet tall, and you know, he's black and 1:44:25.400 --> 1:44:27.280 I'm white, and he's got dreads and I got no hair, 1:44:28.040 --> 1:44:33.680 we were you know, we uh, he's my brother, you know, 1:44:33.800 --> 1:44:37.200 and he has done so. He did a great job 1:44:37.320 --> 1:44:40.960 on the pilot script. And then it came whore, how 1:44:41.040 --> 1:44:47.000 are we going to create this musical universe? And prem 1:44:47.760 --> 1:44:51.240 DJ Premiere was first on the list, and I reached 1:44:51.280 --> 1:44:54.479 out to him, and you know, I met Pream when 1:44:54.520 --> 1:44:55.439 I interned for. 1:44:55.439 --> 1:44:56.040 A while Pitch. 1:44:56.360 --> 1:44:59.080 There was like a little slumber of time before I 1:44:59.120 --> 1:44:59.759 worked for Profile. 1:45:00.040 --> 1:45:00.320 I did it. 1:45:00.400 --> 1:45:02.120 I interned for eighty nine. 1:45:03.960 --> 1:45:07.400 So was that Uh as a jet sledge, as a 1:45:07.600 --> 1:45:11.479 hip hop astorian? Do you have multiple copies of Bust 1:45:11.520 --> 1:45:15.320 to Move Boy? And if you do, can you share 1:45:17.240 --> 1:45:18.040 gang stars? 1:45:18.320 --> 1:45:18.439 Uh? 1:45:20.880 --> 1:45:25.600 I had three twelve inches before no more mistic a 1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:26.320 nice guy out. 1:45:28.040 --> 1:45:31.840 I'm afraid I do not, damn, but I think I 1:45:32.120 --> 1:45:34.519 know somebody might. 1:45:35.479 --> 1:45:37.960 No, I knows a guy. Yeah, I'm looking for Bust 1:45:38.000 --> 1:45:41.240 to Move boy. I would do anything to have a 1:45:41.360 --> 1:45:45.400 one records back in running order, not online, but like 1:45:46.560 --> 1:45:49.320 not a one the sound library, Oh. 1:45:49.320 --> 1:45:53.120 Celebrary man, Well, guys, a writer question, when you went 1:45:53.200 --> 1:45:56.360 to bah one with your pitch, what did you have exactly? 1:45:56.360 --> 1:45:58.360 Because you didn't have a rundown of with the show 1:45:58.520 --> 1:45:59.799 totally was gonna be for the season. 1:46:00.520 --> 1:46:00.840 I did. 1:46:00.920 --> 1:46:03.400 It was just in my head. So I pitched in 1:46:03.439 --> 1:46:06.520 a room from off the dome freestyle. 1:46:07.240 --> 1:46:13.240 That son and what was so what was the line? 1:46:13.320 --> 1:46:15.920 Like what was the tag? Like the one line the 1:46:16.000 --> 1:46:18.240 long line of the show kind of that way like 1:46:18.640 --> 1:46:20.479 the really summer Yeah, I. 1:46:20.520 --> 1:46:22.439 Mean I think we may have said something like it's 1:46:22.439 --> 1:46:24.320 sort of like the hip hop mad Men. You know, 1:46:24.439 --> 1:46:27.600 we might have said something like that, but you know, 1:46:27.800 --> 1:46:30.599 it's it was about the business and what was really 1:46:30.600 --> 1:46:34.160 important is that we had a really strong female lead character, 1:46:35.000 --> 1:46:39.280 really interesting and very complex, and you know, a liar, 1:46:40.000 --> 1:46:42.759 a pathological liar makes her interesting. 1:46:43.240 --> 1:46:44.679 I didn't pick up in the pilot. 1:46:44.720 --> 1:46:49.280 Wait a minute, is fucking oh god, she's And we 1:46:49.479 --> 1:46:52.400 talked about it how and you know the way it 1:46:52.479 --> 1:46:56.400 worked out, we're we kind of have a I don't 1:46:56.400 --> 1:46:58.560 know if it's a renaissance, but there's a lot of 1:46:58.640 --> 1:47:01.719 you're seeing kind of the black female anti hero character 1:47:02.160 --> 1:47:04.960 on TV now where you have you know, I mean 1:47:05.040 --> 1:47:08.840 Cookie and Mary Jane and Olivia Pope. 1:47:09.040 --> 1:47:10.960 You know what I'm saying, where you have anti they're 1:47:10.960 --> 1:47:13.560 not the typical well anti hero in the sense that 1:47:13.680 --> 1:47:16.120 they are people that you They're not just a foil. 1:47:16.320 --> 1:47:18.559 Yeah, they're not just like the good person like I mean, 1:47:18.600 --> 1:47:21.560 they're they're complex people, you know what I mean, And 1:47:21.600 --> 1:47:25.599 they're not just totally all good. And Nikki's character when 1:47:25.640 --> 1:47:27.400 I when you sent me the script, I read it, 1:47:27.479 --> 1:47:29.559 I was like, yeah, she's gonna fall. 1:47:29.640 --> 1:47:32.080 And I didn't know who you were gonna cast. I 1:47:32.400 --> 1:47:32.960 didn't know who. 1:47:33.400 --> 1:47:34.120 We didn't know either. 1:47:34.720 --> 1:47:35.519 You get involved in the show. 1:47:37.080 --> 1:47:38.800 How did I get involved in the show. I don't 1:47:38.840 --> 1:47:41.280 even how did I get hired. Preme was the first 1:47:41.320 --> 1:47:42.680 step right, the music right. 1:47:42.840 --> 1:47:45.400 So I wanted to make sure that we had somebody 1:47:45.439 --> 1:47:48.400 who understood the vocabulary, the sonic vocabulary at the time, 1:47:48.800 --> 1:47:51.400 and would be able to make beats that sounded like 1:47:51.520 --> 1:47:54.320 they were because if we have a character who's a 1:47:54.439 --> 1:47:57.920 rapper and another character who's a producer, the producer has 1:47:58.000 --> 1:48:00.840 to make beats exactly like they would be made in 1:48:00.920 --> 1:48:04.479 nineteen ninety, using the same samples, and using samples, using breaks, 1:48:04.920 --> 1:48:09.720 very important, very important. And then we needed to have 1:48:09.840 --> 1:48:13.679 an MC who also spoke in the vocabulary and cadence 1:48:13.720 --> 1:48:16.400 of the time. And I knew only what there was. 1:48:16.800 --> 1:48:18.920 I had a list and Preem was at the top 1:48:19.000 --> 1:48:21.080 of it. But there was only one person. There was 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:24.559 only one person that I wanted to get for lyrics 1:48:24.600 --> 1:48:27.360 producer for the show, and that was Fante Coleman. And 1:48:27.400 --> 1:48:34.639 I will tell you why, because Fante had again shout 1:48:34.640 --> 1:48:36.840 out to James Lopez, who hit me to all of 1:48:36.880 --> 1:48:40.599 this stuff. James had given me when I moved back 1:48:40.640 --> 1:48:42.920 to New York a copy of the story of Us 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:48.880 Oh my God. And Fante plays like basically, he plays 1:48:48.920 --> 1:48:51.479 the part of a you know, a rapper, trying to 1:48:51.560 --> 1:48:54.960 see trying to get a deal by being basically everybody 1:48:55.040 --> 1:48:57.600 else in the game. So at one point, Fante is 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:00.880 all the guys in the Wu Tang clan know, uh, 1:49:01.560 --> 1:49:05.599 you do the you know, sort of the lyrical miracle, Yeah, 1:49:05.600 --> 1:49:09.160 the underground and then your Percy miracles. And it was 1:49:09.280 --> 1:49:12.200 just like that you are the master of voices, and 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:15.600 I knew that you would understand in a way that 1:49:15.760 --> 1:49:19.920 it was just like could just let go, and even 1:49:20.120 --> 1:49:23.040 even more like the more that you and Prem. First 1:49:23.040 --> 1:49:25.600 of all, you and Prem have a fantastic working relationship 1:49:25.680 --> 1:49:29.919 together and he trusts you implicitly, and when Prem produces, 1:49:30.560 --> 1:49:34.760 he has you, honest his co producer. By just that's it. 1:49:35.000 --> 1:49:37.120 Yeah, that was that was wild. That was wild. 1:49:37.520 --> 1:49:41.479 I mean when y'all reached out to about it, I 1:49:42.040 --> 1:49:44.360 was just coming off of an HBO pilot that I 1:49:44.520 --> 1:49:49.320 was working on, and so I mean TV, you know, yeah, 1:49:49.360 --> 1:49:52.040 the Maya thing, the thing with Mayam Buthar. 1:49:53.360 --> 1:49:59.400 Maya Maya. So yeah, so I was coming off of that, 1:49:59.600 --> 1:50:01.200 and so so you were like, yeah, man, so I 1:50:01.280 --> 1:50:03.000 got this thing. I'm like TV, I'm like, oh god, 1:50:03.040 --> 1:50:07.120 I'm ready for like a million rewrites a million edits whatever. 1:50:07.160 --> 1:50:09.040 I'm like, all right, whatever. So you're like, yo, man, 1:50:09.040 --> 1:50:10.360 I got this thing and I don't know exactly what 1:50:10.439 --> 1:50:12.360 it's gonna be, but you know, this is what it is. 1:50:12.400 --> 1:50:14.120 I'm like, look, dude, send it to me. Let's do it. 1:50:14.640 --> 1:50:17.960 And yeah, those records that for those first records, we 1:50:18.040 --> 1:50:19.479 did the arm. 1:50:20.880 --> 1:50:25.960 God it was the arm song his song God at 1:50:26.080 --> 1:50:28.679 least expected Yeah, God, we did that. Those are records 1:50:28.680 --> 1:50:30.680 that I cut in my house, and I mean we 1:50:30.800 --> 1:50:35.880 pretty much. I wanted to make it so that it's 1:50:35.960 --> 1:50:38.920 kind of tricky because you're writing in nineteen ninety. You're 1:50:38.920 --> 1:50:41.519 writing for nineteen ninety, but you're writing for an audience 1:50:41.960 --> 1:50:44.320 that is current day. 1:50:44.800 --> 1:50:46.640 So it has to work on both levels. It has 1:50:46.680 --> 1:50:48.880 to be true to the times, but at the same time, 1:50:49.000 --> 1:50:53.040 it has to while the audience of now so that 1:50:53.160 --> 1:50:55.880 they can understand why this guy would be the shit 1:50:56.000 --> 1:50:57.439 in nineteen ninety, you know what I mean. 1:50:57.680 --> 1:51:00.679 And the fact that it's fictional makes it a little 1:51:00.720 --> 1:51:04.320 bit harder as as you know, as MC, because you 1:51:04.400 --> 1:51:07.639 know it's fiction. So it's like, you know, the Zample 1:51:07.680 --> 1:51:13.400 always give the scene in Notorious where Biggie is freestyling outside, 1:51:13.520 --> 1:51:15.519 you know, what I'm saying, and they're kicking his actual 1:51:15.760 --> 1:51:17.800 that was his actual freestyle, you know what I mean. 1:51:18.200 --> 1:51:22.120 And that freestyle lyrically, it ain't miraculous, you know what 1:51:22.160 --> 1:51:24.800 I'm saying, but it's accurate to what he was saying 1:51:24.840 --> 1:51:27.760 at that time. The freestyle where he's dissing the dude 1:51:27.840 --> 1:51:30.360 in front of the side. Yeah, in Notaria when he's 1:51:30.439 --> 1:51:32.400 dising the dude. Love that freestyle, No. 1:51:32.600 --> 1:51:35.400 I love it, But I'm just saying it was dope 1:51:35.479 --> 1:51:38.120 because that was accurate to what he said then. From 1:51:38.200 --> 1:51:41.800 now in twenty seventeen, I mean, someone that's hurt Royster 1:51:41.920 --> 1:51:44.759 five to nine or black thought hearing that shit is like, Okay, 1:51:44.840 --> 1:51:46.400 it was cool, you know what I mean, But at 1:51:46.439 --> 1:51:49.080 the time it was ahead. So so that's kind of 1:51:49.120 --> 1:51:53.599 the trick. Can I ask you how important like I'm 1:51:53.840 --> 1:52:01.040 I'm I'm a showrunner's nightmare on social media, like I 1:52:01.960 --> 1:52:08.640 think Nelson is just about talking to me again right 1:52:08.760 --> 1:52:13.640 now to get down Well, you know, for me, the 1:52:14.240 --> 1:52:16.439 reason why I'm so glad you said that about like 1:52:16.640 --> 1:52:20.000 you wanted to really portray the times as they were. 1:52:21.400 --> 1:52:25.280 How important is it to you at least from uh 1:52:26.320 --> 1:52:29.880 in doing this project? Are the music cues to you 1:52:30.360 --> 1:52:35.800 because like, that's the show. Is the whole show? Okay, Well, 1:52:36.240 --> 1:52:39.640 now not not to I'm not trying to you know, 1:52:41.200 --> 1:52:45.320 play you know, Devil's not not Devil's advocate. What do 1:52:45.360 --> 1:52:48.200 you call it. I'm not trying to instigate. No, no, 1:52:48.280 --> 1:52:53.160 I'm not trying to be an instigate. Assuming you watched 1:52:54.479 --> 1:52:59.760 the other show, how did you feel, like did you 1:53:00.560 --> 1:53:03.639 notes like, Okay, that's not accurate. That's not accurate, Matt qu' 1:53:03.680 --> 1:53:04.240 is not accurate. 1:53:04.320 --> 1:53:07.880 And I will be honest. One of the problems with 1:53:09.080 --> 1:53:14.240 making TV, especially making TV while you accurate teaching, uh 1:53:14.560 --> 1:53:17.559 you know, as a profession, is that you don't get 1:53:17.600 --> 1:53:19.720 to watch a lot of TV. So I watched the 1:53:19.800 --> 1:53:24.600 first couple episodes and I understood right away that you 1:53:24.640 --> 1:53:28.959 get down to a very different animal. And it's magical realism. 1:53:30.000 --> 1:53:32.400 And that's not what we were trying to do. We're 1:53:32.479 --> 1:53:36.000 we're doing you know, realism, right, And there's nothing wrong 1:53:36.000 --> 1:53:36.840 with magical realism. 1:53:36.920 --> 1:53:37.880 Like it's an interesting term. 1:53:37.920 --> 1:53:39.040 It sounds like alternative facts. 1:53:42.800 --> 1:53:45.040 It's like what it's like what Tony Morrison does right, 1:53:45.120 --> 1:53:47.880 except for film, right, It's like it's it's it is 1:53:47.960 --> 1:53:54.640 a beautiful romantic vision of what the Bronx was and 1:53:55.000 --> 1:53:57.760 is in people's minds. And even that it's funny because 1:53:57.760 --> 1:54:02.280 you would people from the Bronx from that time, that's 1:54:02.320 --> 1:54:06.800 how they remember it as beautiful, right, even though it 1:54:06.960 --> 1:54:08.960 was a really really I mean, there were parts of 1:54:09.040 --> 1:54:12.360 The Bronx that felt and looked desolate, but it didn't 1:54:12.600 --> 1:54:16.200 wasn't desolate culturally to them. So I'm not mad at 1:54:16.240 --> 1:54:18.240 the get down, but it's just a very different show. 1:54:18.320 --> 1:54:22.880 And also about five times the budget, maybe ten times 1:54:22.960 --> 1:54:25.160 the budget of The Breaks, you know, so it's a 1:54:25.360 --> 1:54:26.800 very different kind of. 1:54:27.520 --> 1:54:31.640 But it's like, okay, so after you developed something and 1:54:31.760 --> 1:54:36.640 then you put it in the hands of the production company, 1:54:36.920 --> 1:54:45.880 the producers, the directions like other people, and how much 1:54:46.080 --> 1:54:54.000 are you willing to let your child metaphorically speaking, play 1:54:54.080 --> 1:54:55.600 with others? Are you willing to turn your back for 1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:57.960 a little bit and do something else and trust that 1:54:59.240 --> 1:55:02.720 it's okay? Is it just like all right, let's cut corners? 1:55:02.920 --> 1:55:07.560 Like for me, I've sat in many a room with 1:55:07.920 --> 1:55:14.360 many a writer and I just really have this disdain 1:55:14.600 --> 1:55:17.800 for their attitude of like music as such an afterthought. 1:55:18.680 --> 1:55:22.080 I it's really not that important, you know, Like Okay, well, 1:55:22.400 --> 1:55:24.160 I know we're in nineteen seventy nine and we gonna 1:55:24.160 --> 1:55:26.040 play a song that came out in eighty four. You 1:55:26.080 --> 1:55:30.920 know it's cool. Yeah, okay, okay, so the New Addition film, 1:55:32.120 --> 1:55:34.480 shout out to my brother Barrycole, I'm not coming at 1:55:34.520 --> 1:55:39.160 your neck. But he kind of corrected me on Twitter. 1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:42.720 I mean, there was a scene where Ricky and Bobby 1:55:43.360 --> 1:55:46.800 and Ron were on the tour bus. We're talking to 1:55:46.920 --> 1:55:51.000 each other and Ricky takes his walkman off, his cassette 1:55:51.000 --> 1:55:56.520 walkman off. But I clearly heard the shack up drum 1:55:56.640 --> 1:56:05.920 break that was you in the Belbe deevo Ain't nothing change, 1:56:07.160 --> 1:56:09.440 which was you know, I mean, this is eighty five. 1:56:09.520 --> 1:56:12.120 They're in the nineteen eighty five Greyhound tour bus going 1:56:12.160 --> 1:56:15.720 back to the Boston Projects, listening to a breakbeat that 1:56:16.040 --> 1:56:20.840 Ricky Bell himself will use seven years now. But you know, 1:56:21.120 --> 1:56:24.800 he kind of had that that correction, like no, that 1:56:25.000 --> 1:56:27.200 was talking all that jazz by stut of Sonic, and 1:56:27.280 --> 1:56:29.760 I wanted to come back like, well still that was 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:34.240 still nineteen eighty eight. That was for but I mean 1:56:34.320 --> 1:56:39.320 for me, how I know that people cut corners and okay, 1:56:39.360 --> 1:56:41.960 well we couldn't clear that song, and we just want 1:56:42.000 --> 1:56:44.840 to move time along and using music's used for moving 1:56:44.960 --> 1:56:48.879 time along. So it's like, how much of a stickler 1:56:48.960 --> 1:56:53.680 are you for keeping that as accurate as possible. 1:56:54.040 --> 1:56:56.880 I'm a stickler because Seeth believes in it, you know 1:56:56.920 --> 1:57:02.200 what I mean. Seeth really values the authenticity part of it. 1:57:02.800 --> 1:57:04.840 And we have this sort of language with each other 1:57:04.920 --> 1:57:07.960 where we talk about the Authenticity Bank account, right, and 1:57:08.080 --> 1:57:11.960 you know you're gonna make withdraws right, we have like 1:57:12.600 --> 1:57:15.960 I think it takes place in the summer nineteen ninety, 1:57:16.040 --> 1:57:18.160 but maybe looking at the front door, I think was 1:57:18.240 --> 1:57:21.480 something that we made a slight you know, exception for 1:57:21.560 --> 1:57:23.680 it did come out in nineteen ninety, but it came 1:57:23.720 --> 1:57:26.160 out later in nineteen ninety. I think also Just to 1:57:26.200 --> 1:57:28.560 Get a Wrap came out later on in nineteen ninety, 1:57:28.960 --> 1:57:32.480 but it was it was that's the kind of trade 1:57:32.520 --> 1:57:35.600 off we're we're willing to make. There are other trade offs. 1:57:35.640 --> 1:57:37.840 There are other sort of withdrawals from the Authenticity Bank 1:57:37.880 --> 1:57:40.640 account that don't pay off. Like I'm not going to allow, 1:57:42.040 --> 1:57:44.760 you know, a breakbeat from another time. 1:57:44.880 --> 1:57:46.880 I was going to say, you know, premull get away 1:57:46.960 --> 1:57:51.240 with one in this business of Repnah. No, we kept it. 1:57:51.720 --> 1:57:53.640 Now we keep it well, all of our you know, 1:57:53.800 --> 1:57:56.720 with the scratches, we keep them so far, we keep 1:57:56.760 --> 1:58:00.240 it all you know stuff. Oh yeah, stuff that was 1:58:00.360 --> 1:58:02.320 of that time, well before that time actually. 1:58:02.920 --> 1:58:06.240 So we've actually been in the studio right with Preem 1:58:06.360 --> 1:58:09.680 and there's been something that he wanted to do or whatever, 1:58:09.800 --> 1:58:12.320 and we're like, oh no, that's too it's too early. 1:58:12.640 --> 1:58:15.440 And even with lyrics, we've had a few. Yeah, I 1:58:15.520 --> 1:58:17.480 think it was the lyrics I said it was. It 1:58:17.600 --> 1:58:19.839 was one lyric in the in the uh in the pilot, 1:58:20.000 --> 1:58:23.320 I said something like, oh god, what was it? It was. 1:58:25.000 --> 1:58:27.600 Puff mad l's I think was the line, and we 1:58:27.800 --> 1:58:31.000 was like, in nineteen ninety it wasn't puffing mad ls. 1:58:31.120 --> 1:58:34.200 So we changed it to something else because the original 1:58:34.240 --> 1:58:37.880 line was, how was it girlies on my job? Puff 1:58:38.000 --> 1:58:41.200 mad ls till I see blue like gargamele. So we 1:58:41.400 --> 1:58:44.160 changed it to girlies on my job hard as hell, 1:58:44.760 --> 1:58:46.400 make him do the smurf like gargamele. 1:58:46.680 --> 1:58:48.520 And so that was what that was. 1:58:48.800 --> 1:58:51.240 That was even but even the chorus. 1:58:54.280 --> 1:58:57.240 We were talking about the chorus right in your chorus 1:58:57.520 --> 1:58:59.960 was Joe Rock Baby Baby, And. 1:59:00.040 --> 1:59:02.800 I thought it was even and that's something I got. 1:59:02.800 --> 1:59:05.160 It was, but I thought it was too much of 1:59:05.440 --> 1:59:08.200 town Baby, which is I was totally not even thinking that. 1:59:08.400 --> 1:59:11.360 So I was like, we'll just do Joe rock y'all NonStop, 1:59:11.440 --> 1:59:12.320 y'all is more. 1:59:12.720 --> 1:59:17.680 But I think we kept rock Baby, rock Baby, Joe Baby. 1:59:17.720 --> 1:59:21.400 What is the quintessential hook in nineteen ninety, Well, the 1:59:21.520 --> 1:59:24.280 thing is like Trive had no hook. 1:59:24.200 --> 1:59:27.600 Or well in nineteen ninety what it was was it 1:59:27.760 --> 1:59:32.400 wasn't really hooks. Your hook was the last two bars 1:59:32.440 --> 1:59:35.040 of your rhyme. So it would be the last two 1:59:35.120 --> 1:59:37.760 bars of your song, so what you're. 1:59:37.600 --> 1:59:40.879 Saying, and then it goes into the break the scratches 1:59:40.960 --> 1:59:43.160 or an instrument or horn or whatever the fuck. So 1:59:43.360 --> 1:59:47.160 that was kind of the way we play it. And uh, yeah, man, 1:59:47.200 --> 1:59:49.600 I mean I'm lucky that we are. We have actors 1:59:49.720 --> 1:59:53.000 like Antoine is just a motherfucker unbelievable. 1:59:57.600 --> 2:00:00.480 Can y'all break down how many different personality like rap 2:00:00.600 --> 2:00:03.280 did you have to write for different personalities from Antoine? 2:00:03.360 --> 2:00:06.880 Who are so I said, tough job this season? 2:00:07.160 --> 2:00:09.120 Yeah, yeah, it was. It was, but we made it 2:00:09.200 --> 2:00:10.800 through it though for this one. 2:00:10.880 --> 2:00:14.800 Okay, so uh for those that watch the show, it's 2:00:14.880 --> 2:00:17.040 the story of you know, it tells, like Dan was 2:00:17.120 --> 2:00:19.840 saying earlier, tells these different stories of different people in 2:00:19.920 --> 2:00:23.880 the business at that time. And so, uh, the main 2:00:24.120 --> 2:00:27.360 guy that I write for is played by Antoine Harris. 2:00:27.560 --> 2:00:30.400 Big ups to him. He is like the street guy 2:00:30.800 --> 2:00:34.640 who is you know, really talented. So he's a guy. 2:00:35.160 --> 2:00:36.560 And I don't know if this is something that we 2:00:36.680 --> 2:00:38.720 can maybe if y'all are still figuring out, I think 2:00:38.800 --> 2:00:41.360 we're still last conversation we had, I think we're still 2:00:41.400 --> 2:00:44.400 trying to see if he's gonna be the guy or 2:00:44.400 --> 2:00:46.960 if he's gonna be the guy who inspires the guy, 2:00:47.240 --> 2:00:49.640 you know what I mean, Like that's still because he's 2:00:49.640 --> 2:00:52.200 a motherfucker, but like is he gonna be jay Z 2:00:52.440 --> 2:00:53.400 or is he gonna be Jazz? 2:00:53.440 --> 2:00:53.520 Oh? 2:00:53.640 --> 2:00:56.280 You know what I mean? Like that's still that still 2:00:56.480 --> 2:00:57.000 remains to. 2:00:57.040 --> 2:00:59.200 Be because he's like hell respected in the streets. Like 2:00:59.280 --> 2:01:01.240 it's like you got to go through hell people to 2:01:01.280 --> 2:01:01.720 get to him. 2:01:01.960 --> 2:01:04.360 Yeah, he's like the he's the man. And then in 2:01:04.600 --> 2:01:07.240 like season one, this you know, as this season. 2:01:07.040 --> 2:01:10.600 Goes on, you'll see other stuff that solidifies, like he's 2:01:10.720 --> 2:01:12.560 really like the fucking he's the guy. 2:01:13.760 --> 2:01:16.640 So it's him, He's the He's the main guy. Then 2:01:16.760 --> 2:01:21.640 there's uh oh Man. Then there's uh Imani X played 2:01:21.680 --> 2:01:26.520 by Tianna Taylor. She's the girl who is like, she's 2:01:26.760 --> 2:01:30.520 like a like a Latifa like, she's kind of tom boyish. 2:01:30.960 --> 2:01:37.400 Me isis revel So she's that ship. 2:01:38.400 --> 2:01:42.080 And the kind of the conflict that we'll see later 2:01:42.200 --> 2:01:47.040 on uh is her mother played by Kim Wayns a 2:01:47.200 --> 2:01:50.880 hilarious fucking Kim Wayns plays by Kim Wayns. 2:01:51.160 --> 2:01:52.720 Her mother kind of wants her to be more of 2:01:52.920 --> 2:01:55.360 like a kind of salt and pepper, you know, uh 2:01:55.600 --> 2:01:58.880 female lem see. So that's you know, her thing. So 2:01:58.920 --> 2:02:02.280 I had to write for her. And so the not 2:02:02.400 --> 2:02:04.440 really the conflict that we had, but just the thing 2:02:05.200 --> 2:02:08.240 that we hit towards the end of this season was 2:02:08.280 --> 2:02:12.760 that I didn't want Imani to sound like a female 2:02:12.880 --> 2:02:15.680 version of So you have to I had to. You 2:02:15.800 --> 2:02:17.400 have to approach it in a way. It's like, all right, 2:02:17.760 --> 2:02:19.640 I want her to be dope, but she can't just 2:02:19.760 --> 2:02:22.360 be just the female, the female version of this guy. 2:02:22.640 --> 2:02:24.640 She has to have something about her. How do you 2:02:25.080 --> 2:02:27.960 channel all these I mean, you're like the hip hop 2:02:28.040 --> 2:02:32.040 version of split Man. How do you how do you 2:02:32.240 --> 2:02:35.640 channel all of these in an authentic way at that 2:02:36.680 --> 2:02:39.800 I mean on the spot, do you find that working okay? 2:02:40.080 --> 2:02:43.280 Now finding someone that I can relate to, like on 2:02:43.760 --> 2:02:47.760 working on television when you have to instantly come up 2:02:47.800 --> 2:02:50.560 with something, I don't overthink it. Yeah, Like how do 2:02:50.640 --> 2:02:51.200 you deal with that? 2:02:51.400 --> 2:02:51.560 Man? 2:02:51.640 --> 2:02:54.080 You just gotta you just gotta just write it. I mean, 2:02:54.120 --> 2:02:57.080 what is your process? You just sit alone? Yeah? I 2:02:57.480 --> 2:02:59.800 generally always work alone. I never really work with anyone, 2:03:00.240 --> 2:03:03.520 you know, record myself and like injureding myself and uh, 2:03:03.760 --> 2:03:07.680 I pretty much just in the time of like for 2:03:07.920 --> 2:03:13.640 arm for his main song, the idea was, without giving 2:03:13.640 --> 2:03:16.440 away too many plot points, well, in the within the pilot, 2:03:16.760 --> 2:03:22.440 you know, his friend has been killed. So the idea was, okay, 2:03:23.200 --> 2:03:26.840 we got I gotta take him through the stages of death, 2:03:26.960 --> 2:03:28.400 the stages of grief. 2:03:29.000 --> 2:03:31.960 So the first song that he does is you know, 2:03:32.080 --> 2:03:34.640 it's just straight anger. It's just like, we're gonna get 2:03:34.680 --> 2:03:36.000 them niggas, y'all kill my homie. 2:03:36.640 --> 2:03:38.720 We about to set it. It's just anger. And then 2:03:39.400 --> 2:03:41.120 later on in this season you'll see he has some 2:03:41.240 --> 2:03:44.720 other stuff that takes him through the other stages of grief. 2:03:44.960 --> 2:03:46.880 So it's just putting yourself in that character and what 2:03:46.960 --> 2:03:47.560 they would feel. 2:03:47.720 --> 2:03:50.280 First of the first season feels more like denial. 2:03:50.520 --> 2:03:56.000 They're not exacts, so it's just I try to put 2:03:56.040 --> 2:03:59.400 myself in each character's shoes and seek how they would 2:03:59.400 --> 2:04:02.440 feel and just you know, right in from that perspective. 2:04:02.480 --> 2:04:04.600 But what's interesting is and just by talking to you, 2:04:04.760 --> 2:04:06.400 like those are the two dope people, right, So is 2:04:06.440 --> 2:04:10.120 it easier to write for the dope lyrics or because 2:04:10.160 --> 2:04:14.320 now you got to write for like mediocre purpose fun. 2:04:14.400 --> 2:04:18.760 I feel like it's fun to write for It's well, okay, 2:04:19.440 --> 2:04:22.000 loves it. I had, but I run into a problem 2:04:22.080 --> 2:04:27.200 I just drew on. Yeah, I have problems. So we 2:04:27.320 --> 2:04:30.160 have battle scenes as well, right, so we have battles. 2:04:29.840 --> 2:04:33.480 That you have to right and so battling yourself basically. 2:04:33.280 --> 2:04:35.160 Yeah, it's a mirror match. It's like the fucking mirror 2:04:35.200 --> 2:04:39.120 match in fucking uh In in Mortal Comeback. So for me, 2:04:40.240 --> 2:04:43.800 the problem I was running into was that I like 2:04:44.040 --> 2:04:47.880 to be the villain. So like my villain versus was 2:04:48.120 --> 2:04:50.840 murder and the guy that was actually spposed to win 2:04:50.920 --> 2:04:54.800 the battle on camera them versus was like cool, Like 2:04:54.880 --> 2:04:57.240 my first draft would be like it's cool, but you 2:04:57.400 --> 2:04:58.280 need a little more. 2:04:58.720 --> 2:05:01.040 So I had to and that was the only network 2:05:01.120 --> 2:05:02.600 note you got on the pilot. 2:05:02.800 --> 2:05:04.480 Yeah, that was like she was like, She's like, I 2:05:04.560 --> 2:05:05.920 really think it feels like uh. 2:05:07.440 --> 2:05:10.840 Yeah, yeah, the other guy won and so I empires good. 2:05:10.840 --> 2:05:11.440 You corrected that. 2:05:11.720 --> 2:05:13.680 Yeah, I went back and like I did another draft 2:05:13.760 --> 2:05:15.800 and they okayed it. And so the thing was in 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:19.480 that first battle with in the pilot with Sieg and 2:05:19.880 --> 2:05:26.040 uh Sig played by u Si play by the idea 2:05:26.240 --> 2:05:30.680 was that, Okay, toy Ray is gonna the main guy. 2:05:32.640 --> 2:05:36.000 Is gonna win the war, so to speak, but to 2:05:36.280 --> 2:05:38.680 Ray is still gonna kind of win the battle. And 2:05:38.920 --> 2:05:42.040 to me that felt authentic because I remember coming up battling. 2:05:42.440 --> 2:05:44.560 You would see all those guys who would win all 2:05:44.600 --> 2:05:46.920 the battles. They would just be freestyling and could just 2:05:47.040 --> 2:05:49.160 go on and talk about your mom and make up 2:05:49.200 --> 2:05:51.920 ship whatever. But they couldn't make records to save their 2:05:51.960 --> 2:05:53.920 fucking lives. Like they fucking suck. 2:05:55.960 --> 2:05:57.120 I have a story. 2:05:57.800 --> 2:05:57.920 Uh. 2:05:58.680 --> 2:06:02.280 The first week that we mixed do You Want More? 2:06:02.320 --> 2:06:06.560 At Battery Studios, we were next in the b room 2:06:06.680 --> 2:06:14.440 was supernatural. Now if you remember, wait, I just said 2:06:14.520 --> 2:06:23.120 I just coughed all right, all right, so okay, boys 2:06:23.160 --> 2:06:26.960 and girls. And he was on East West. Yes. So 2:06:27.600 --> 2:06:32.200 when in nineteen ninety three at the New Music Seminar, 2:06:33.800 --> 2:06:37.000 I remember, it was all about skills and it was 2:06:37.080 --> 2:06:42.760 all about Supernatural that particular year, and Supernat signed to 2:06:42.880 --> 2:06:45.560 East West and so he was in the b room 2:06:45.720 --> 2:06:49.000 of Battery Studios, and we were in the a room 2:06:49.920 --> 2:06:55.120 a Battery Studios, mixing our stuff and we occasionally That's 2:06:55.240 --> 2:06:57.480 kind of how we met Roselle. Roselle was kind of 2:06:57.600 --> 2:07:06.919 in Supernat's like and Supernatural totally just freestyle everything, his shows, 2:07:07.760 --> 2:07:13.280 his his aulus and all I remember it was I 2:07:13.360 --> 2:07:15.800 went in his room. Me and Jerik sat in his 2:07:15.920 --> 2:07:18.720 room and he had the single if I was King. 2:07:19.240 --> 2:07:22.400 If I was King, I ruled everything if I was King, 2:07:22.800 --> 2:07:25.760 And then he did a verse right, let me take 2:07:25.800 --> 2:07:28.040 it from the top again, if I was King. If 2:07:28.360 --> 2:07:31.240 they he took a totally different verses, Ah, no, no, no, forget, 2:07:31.480 --> 2:07:34.320 let me do it again. And he went through like 2:07:34.920 --> 2:07:41.920 nine drafts of like one free totally different than the others, 2:07:42.080 --> 2:07:45.000 and I was like, the whole record's going to be 2:07:45.120 --> 2:07:51.760 made that way. They're like, yeah, man, freestyle record. And no, nah, 2:07:51.800 --> 2:07:53.080 it was just one of those things that like it 2:07:53.200 --> 2:07:56.760 works good live and even still live sometimes against novelty. 2:07:57.040 --> 2:07:59.920 That's what I was getting to like. It's something you know, 2:08:00.160 --> 2:08:01.600 you can only pull the rabbit out of hat so 2:08:01.680 --> 2:08:02.200 many times. 2:08:02.240 --> 2:08:04.120 You know, I meantyle union. 2:08:04.560 --> 2:08:06.480 Yeah, I used to Friz. I mean, that was what 2:08:06.640 --> 2:08:08.400 I did. But after a while, Yeah, it kind of 2:08:08.400 --> 2:08:10.200 It's like a parlor trick. Otherwise, like, look, write a 2:08:10.240 --> 2:08:11.040 fucking song, dude. 2:08:11.520 --> 2:08:15.560 So we need to talk about the best part of 2:08:15.680 --> 2:08:22.040 that battle, which is the character, the impromptu character we 2:08:22.200 --> 2:08:26.400 created with Fante's blessing named mom Ali. Yes, talk about 2:08:26.440 --> 2:08:29.840 it because we really, we really wanted to. I mean, 2:08:30.200 --> 2:08:35.040 it's an afrocentric period and you know, not to make 2:08:35.240 --> 2:08:37.360 light of it, but there was always that dude who 2:08:37.520 --> 2:08:39.840 came to a battle to teach, to educate, you know. 2:08:40.680 --> 2:08:44.160 So, uh, I knew you were going to make I 2:08:45.960 --> 2:08:48.640 knew you were going to make it. See that damn 2:08:48.800 --> 2:08:57.720 verse shout out to Caitlin. Yeah. So this was one 2:08:57.760 --> 2:08:59.240 of the one of the times. I remember we was 2:08:59.360 --> 2:09:01.720 up I was up there, and so we had to 2:09:02.000 --> 2:09:04.920 do this battle. So there's a battle in season in 2:09:06.120 --> 2:09:09.800 episode one of the pilot where Arm is battling this 2:09:09.920 --> 2:09:12.960 guy six hours and so this is essentially the battle 2:09:13.040 --> 2:09:15.840 where Arm wins the battle. And this is where DV 2:09:16.040 --> 2:09:19.600 the producer sees the battle and realizes, Yo, Arm is 2:09:19.640 --> 2:09:21.560 the dude. I gotta fuck with this is the guy. 2:09:22.240 --> 2:09:24.560 And so I had to write that battle between Torrey 2:09:24.760 --> 2:09:28.880 and Antoine, and so that came out. So before that, 2:09:29.960 --> 2:09:32.640 there's all these other battles that take place before their battle, 2:09:32.640 --> 2:09:35.040 which is like the main event. So I come up 2:09:35.120 --> 2:09:37.400 there and I'm in New York and Dan hits me. 2:09:37.520 --> 2:09:41.080 He's like, yo, man, you know these other people we 2:09:41.200 --> 2:09:43.480 got doing battles, it ain't really working. 2:09:43.880 --> 2:09:46.560 Would you be willing to step in? And I'm just 2:09:46.680 --> 2:09:48.640 like yeah, I mean I can write some shit for whatever. 2:09:48.880 --> 2:09:49.960 I'll write somebody some shit. 2:09:49.960 --> 2:09:51.880 It's cool. He's like no, no, no, no, no, I 2:09:51.960 --> 2:09:53.600 need you to write it. Yeah, but I need you 2:09:53.720 --> 2:09:55.720 to step in. And I'm like, fuck you me step in. 2:09:55.880 --> 2:09:58.520 He's like like step in, like be on camera, Like 2:09:58.680 --> 2:10:02.400 oh shit, I said okay. So he's like, well, I 2:10:02.480 --> 2:10:04.320 got an idea for this character. His name is he 2:10:04.440 --> 2:10:07.080 Mama Lee. I was like, say no more. I just 2:10:07.240 --> 2:10:11.360 knew what that meant, sort of like doctor York meets 2:10:12.200 --> 2:10:19.600 you know, my man, doctor York, Doctor York meets whatever 2:10:19.680 --> 2:10:20.320 you add with that. 2:10:20.680 --> 2:10:23.000 I told he did it so well. I saw the 2:10:23.080 --> 2:10:25.120 pilot the pilot episode, and I was like, I think 2:10:25.160 --> 2:10:27.560 I thought you were ode or something because I really 2:10:27.600 --> 2:10:28.040 did not know. 2:10:28.120 --> 2:10:30.000 That was you. That was me and the cooofie in 2:10:30.720 --> 2:10:32.520 coof the in the Shades. 2:10:32.680 --> 2:10:34.960 So the good news is that that mam Alee comes back, 2:10:35.600 --> 2:10:39.920 go back in the season. I really really wanted a 2:10:40.600 --> 2:10:43.880 whole subplot around in Mama Lee. I didn't get it, 2:10:44.200 --> 2:10:47.480 but I'm still angling for it. If there's a season two. 2:10:47.600 --> 2:10:49.640 Yeah, that means you can't share it because you'll want 2:10:49.680 --> 2:10:50.320 to that's right. 2:10:50.600 --> 2:10:53.720 Yeah we uh we shot that, and yeah, I hope 2:10:53.760 --> 2:10:54.360 well I spin off. 2:10:55.640 --> 2:10:55.760 Yo. 2:10:55.840 --> 2:10:57.520 I just saw him like I just want mam he 2:10:57.560 --> 2:10:59.600 gotta have a white woman, because that's what all like 2:10:59.680 --> 2:11:02.960 the whole dude, you gotta I was really you. I 2:11:02.960 --> 2:11:04.960 thought it was due. Now you gotta have a white woman. 2:11:05.000 --> 2:11:07.240 You gotta be authentic hotep, come on, like, there's no 2:11:07.360 --> 2:11:09.240 one that wants to fight for black people more than 2:11:09.240 --> 2:11:11.680 the nigga with a white woman. So like it got, 2:11:11.800 --> 2:11:15.280 it's gotta work. So yeah, man, we shot that and 2:11:15.800 --> 2:11:18.000 it was funny, like that was like my culture shock. 2:11:18.120 --> 2:11:21.400 So the scene was supposed to be imam Ali is 2:11:21.480 --> 2:11:24.840 the guy. He's like the old guy that is, you know, 2:11:25.000 --> 2:11:28.240 he's out of touch and he can rap, but he's 2:11:28.280 --> 2:11:32.000 trying to He would be doing push ups. I mean, 2:11:32.920 --> 2:11:35.440 he's doing push ups with the perfect form, but he's 2:11:35.480 --> 2:11:39.200 trying to educate and shit. So in the scene when shot, 2:11:39.840 --> 2:11:42.320 it was supposed to be that a Mama a Lee 2:11:42.480 --> 2:11:44.960 lost the battle and he's like the laughing stock. But 2:11:45.120 --> 2:11:47.600 when we shot the scene and we had real extras 2:11:47.640 --> 2:11:50.240 and we told him like real twenty twenty one years 2:11:50.240 --> 2:11:53.480 old of today, we told him like, look react if 2:11:53.560 --> 2:11:55.760 some shit is whack, say it's whack. If y'all here 2:11:55.760 --> 2:11:58.760 a hot line like this is live. And so when 2:11:58.840 --> 2:12:01.880 I did Diverse, they actually were cheering for me and 2:12:01.960 --> 2:12:03.720 shit like they liked it, you know what I mean. 2:12:03.880 --> 2:12:07.240 Well, the thing was the guy who was facing he 2:12:07.320 --> 2:12:09.360 was a real MC, but he he was very nervous 2:12:09.360 --> 2:12:11.280 because his first time on TV, so he kept forgetting 2:12:11.320 --> 2:12:15.200 his lines. So now Fante's oh, you know, improvising in 2:12:15.440 --> 2:12:17.360 characters like well, come to the youth center. We have 2:12:17.560 --> 2:12:18.240 memory pills. 2:12:21.720 --> 2:12:25.240 We got genkkobal Bo. It was just I was just 2:12:25.280 --> 2:12:27.280 saying all kind of shit and so, and the thing 2:12:27.480 --> 2:12:28.120 was my verse. 2:12:28.200 --> 2:12:31.520 I had to write it the night before, and that's 2:12:31.560 --> 2:12:34.160 something you know, it's extremely hard to do, like to 2:12:34.200 --> 2:12:37.280 write something and then have to memorize it. So I'm 2:12:37.280 --> 2:12:39.960 an extra end the scene, and in between takes, I'm 2:12:40.000 --> 2:12:42.480 going out and listening to my phone, like playing the 2:12:42.560 --> 2:12:43.600 verse over and over and over again. 2:12:43.640 --> 2:12:45.640 And so finally we shoot it, and you know, the 2:12:46.080 --> 2:12:48.440 kids reacted to my shit. They was like yo, this 2:12:48.600 --> 2:12:50.920 they was laughing and like they was hooting hollar. And 2:12:51.040 --> 2:12:53.000 so afterwards, me and Dan was talking. I was like, man, 2:12:53.040 --> 2:12:54.840 what the fuck was that? That wasn't supposed to happen, 2:12:55.280 --> 2:12:57.200 and he was like, well, you know what, dude, that 2:12:57.720 --> 2:13:01.680 audience like that that you like now, they didn't get 2:13:01.880 --> 2:13:04.200 x claned, they didn't get poor righteous teachers, they didn't 2:13:04.240 --> 2:13:07.840 get you know, just that super pro black time and 2:13:08.000 --> 2:13:10.320 rap where we just thought we was like gonna be 2:13:10.360 --> 2:13:13.360 black ay black. They didn't get it. So to them 2:13:13.440 --> 2:13:15.560 it was cool to see. So to them it wasn't 2:13:15.640 --> 2:13:18.680 a joke because they didn't even get the reference to 2:13:18.720 --> 2:13:20.080 stuff that we were represent at that time. 2:13:20.120 --> 2:13:21.520 So it's just like in the pilot. 2:13:21.840 --> 2:13:23.360 This is in the pilot. This is the pilot. 2:13:23.840 --> 2:13:26.560 How my wish is that people can hear the whole verse. 2:13:27.840 --> 2:13:32.560 Unbelievable and listen. Jay Smooth was an extra in one 2:13:32.640 --> 2:13:34.600 of our scenes. I remember you your demo came in 2:13:34.680 --> 2:13:37.240 when Jay Smooth was and Jay Smooth and I had 2:13:37.320 --> 2:13:38.680 such fun listening to that demo. 2:13:40.360 --> 2:13:42.760 Yeah, I cut the demo that because you because again 2:13:42.840 --> 2:13:43.680 you hit me that night. 2:13:43.760 --> 2:13:46.040 It's like eleven twelve o'clock and I was I just 2:13:46.160 --> 2:13:49.800 left blue note with glassper and it's like twelve o'clock. 2:13:49.800 --> 2:13:52.040 I'm getting back in the joint and he's like, so 2:13:52.240 --> 2:13:54.000 I need you to do this scene. And by the way, 2:13:54.040 --> 2:13:56.880 we're taping tomorrow, you know, like afternoon, so be read. 2:13:56.920 --> 2:13:59.480 I'm like, all right. So I literally cut the demo 2:13:59.760 --> 2:14:03.200 in hotel room with my little bull speaker, my iPad 2:14:03.440 --> 2:14:06.320 and my iPhone and I just wrapped into that and 2:14:06.480 --> 2:14:07.240 that was how we did it. 2:14:08.000 --> 2:14:10.160 And so yeah, that was it. So that was a 2:14:10.240 --> 2:14:13.280 character I had to write for. It was what else 2:14:13.320 --> 2:14:17.400 your girl im imani imam a lee. Uh, there is 2:14:17.640 --> 2:14:19.320 a but I'll give you away too much. There is 2:14:19.400 --> 2:14:25.120 a audition audition scene scene coming up. Uh, it's like 2:14:25.200 --> 2:14:27.800 three or four acts I had to write for them. Uh, 2:14:28.600 --> 2:14:31.120 you did a great job on that one, thank you man. 2:14:31.200 --> 2:14:33.720 I mean, well, here's the thing is, it's not just 2:14:34.120 --> 2:14:38.000 lyrics because again this gets back to my horrible an 2:14:38.080 --> 2:14:41.960 our career. You know, we had to decide because there's 2:14:42.000 --> 2:14:44.160 the banger at the end of the season, right, and 2:14:44.600 --> 2:14:47.000 and what is the beat that we're going to use. 2:14:47.160 --> 2:14:51.320 But there's a problem. And the problem is there's a 2:14:51.480 --> 2:14:54.680 there's a plot line that involves a using a particular 2:14:55.520 --> 2:15:00.760 Bob James sample and or rather use a sample a 2:15:00.920 --> 2:15:04.520 record by Bob James, and which record was it going 2:15:04.600 --> 2:15:06.640 to be? And I felt really boxed in. I felt like, 2:15:06.720 --> 2:15:09.240 oh my god, you know, none of these things is 2:15:09.280 --> 2:15:12.240 going to make something that hasn't already been done. And 2:15:13.800 --> 2:15:15.200 I'm panicking because. 2:15:14.920 --> 2:15:15.880 We couldn't use knowledge. 2:15:15.880 --> 2:15:17.840 I was like, we can't use knowledge and it was 2:15:17.880 --> 2:15:20.920 so great, Well it's nine, it was nineteen ninety. But 2:15:21.040 --> 2:15:24.840 the thing was with Preing, like, I mean, just fucking Preing. 2:15:25.000 --> 2:15:26.600 So we're talking samples and he's. 2:15:26.480 --> 2:15:29.360 Like, oh yeah, I'm about chop that back in ninety two, 2:15:29.840 --> 2:15:31.360 you know what I mean. It's like, ah shit, you 2:15:31.480 --> 2:15:32.840 did do that, you know what I mean? So a 2:15:32.920 --> 2:15:33.600 lot of that stuff. 2:15:33.760 --> 2:15:36.120 So I'm not going to mention the Bob James song, 2:15:37.480 --> 2:15:40.240 but you suggest it, and I think I. 2:15:40.280 --> 2:15:44.160 Was just thinking, I tell you after it's over, but nah, 2:15:44.200 --> 2:15:46.240 it's not that, And I thought I was. 2:15:46.240 --> 2:15:48.760 Like, oh, that is never going to work. It's never 2:15:48.800 --> 2:15:50.760 gonna work. And I'm busy, like, Okay, you know what, 2:15:50.880 --> 2:15:52.320 maybe it doesn't have to do Bob James. Maybe we 2:15:52.400 --> 2:15:54.640 do a cooler gang song. Here's ten cooler gang songs 2:15:54.680 --> 2:15:59.080 you can sample. I'm you know, panicking and Funk is back, 2:15:59.120 --> 2:15:59.960 I mean co Cools back. 2:16:00.040 --> 2:16:01.400 We had that that was like it were. 2:16:01.400 --> 2:16:03.800 Posular, like four different artists that we could use to 2:16:03.880 --> 2:16:09.440 make this plot line work. And Cream takes Fante's suggestion 2:16:10.080 --> 2:16:14.360 and makes this. It's just unbelievable. The coolest no no, 2:16:14.440 --> 2:16:18.280 no no Bob James record that that you have heard 2:16:18.360 --> 2:16:22.040 in another classic Golden era hip hop hit that I 2:16:22.280 --> 2:16:24.560 never thought could have been flipped in the way it 2:16:24.720 --> 2:16:25.160 was flipped. 2:16:25.760 --> 2:16:28.560 And if you know, I'm I guess it right, I 2:16:28.720 --> 2:16:31.160 want you to guess it. You know, I'll confirm it 2:16:32.720 --> 2:16:35.400 all right? Yeah, I mean ye say you probably guess 2:16:35.440 --> 2:16:41.199 it was No, Steve, I don't think it is Holy Ship. 2:16:41.480 --> 2:16:45.720 He's a tappan Zee Tap Records. Ye, yes, he's a 2:16:45.800 --> 2:16:50.000 tappan Ze. Matt. You're saying that the name of No, 2:16:50.120 --> 2:16:56.240 I'm just saying that I didn't give it away the 2:16:56.680 --> 2:17:01.480 west Tester lady. Nah, No, ain't that Wait a minute, 2:17:01.520 --> 2:17:03.080 hang on, he I mean take me to the Marty 2:17:03.120 --> 2:17:06.280 Ground was the that's that's cat yet? Well here's the 2:17:06.320 --> 2:17:12.640 thing though, See, flipping was really not a thing in 2:17:12.800 --> 2:17:17.800 nineteen ninety. Yeah, so all right, just for I remember. 2:17:18.959 --> 2:17:23.879 Age act that used this particular Bob James record didn't 2:17:24.000 --> 2:17:28.280 exist yet, so it had not been used. So it 2:17:28.360 --> 2:17:30.640 wasn't really a flip. It's a flip to us, Yeah, 2:17:30.760 --> 2:17:35.760 in twenty seventeen. But uh, the producer DV thought it 2:17:35.879 --> 2:17:37.320 up all himself in nineteen ninety. 2:17:38.680 --> 2:17:40.039 It's not Westchester lady. 2:17:41.120 --> 2:17:41.320 Nah. 2:17:42.040 --> 2:17:43.560 Well it's not the on example. 2:17:44.200 --> 2:17:47.480 Nah Nah, that one is flip like a technical thing. 2:17:47.840 --> 2:17:49.160 Well, just to flip. 2:17:49.680 --> 2:17:51.680 Take my sample that's already been used in using it. 2:17:52.320 --> 2:17:54.879 In other words, if you have a roof excube, once 2:17:54.959 --> 2:17:59.160 all the sides are completely done, that's nineteen ninety. Cats 2:17:59.240 --> 2:18:02.720 just started mixing it all up and you know, all 2:18:02.760 --> 2:18:05.400 the colors up and messing it up like by n. 2:18:06.520 --> 2:18:10.200 It's like, you know, you know, player's anthem by Junior Mafia, Right, 2:18:10.800 --> 2:18:15.040 So Prem and Jabru to sort of poke fun at it, 2:18:15.120 --> 2:18:17.320 they take the same sample, which is a new birth sample, 2:18:17.360 --> 2:18:17.920 and they flip it. 2:18:20.120 --> 2:18:23.160 Yeah so yeah, so but nah, that was I mean, 2:18:23.200 --> 2:18:25.320 it's been an incredible like just to be able to, 2:18:26.400 --> 2:18:28.840 you know, do that shit like so I like it. 2:18:29.000 --> 2:18:31.120 It puts me in his own where I like to 2:18:31.200 --> 2:18:33.800 be like kind of behind the scenes and like live 2:18:33.920 --> 2:18:38.040 my life through different people. And you know, it's that's 2:18:38.120 --> 2:18:40.199 just fun to watch, Like with hearing other people interpret 2:18:40.280 --> 2:18:42.600 your words. That shit is amazing to me. It's a 2:18:42.640 --> 2:18:50.320 lot of fun. The first episode of season one is aired. 2:18:52.120 --> 2:18:54.280 What can you tell us about where these characters are 2:18:54.360 --> 2:18:56.520 going without giving stuff away? 2:18:58.560 --> 2:19:03.760 Well, you know, they're on a collision course with destiny, 2:19:07.360 --> 2:19:13.800 I think, you know. I they're dealing with what we 2:19:13.959 --> 2:19:17.279 were dealing with in nineteen ninety. They're dealing with major 2:19:17.360 --> 2:19:20.000 labels coming in and sniffing money and sniffing around and 2:19:20.160 --> 2:19:23.240 offering a lot of personal opportunity to folks. Do you 2:19:23.360 --> 2:19:25.720 take that or do you not take that and what 2:19:26.760 --> 2:19:31.320 what do you you know, what are the risks taking 2:19:31.360 --> 2:19:34.200 that big, cushy, major label job and what do you 2:19:34.320 --> 2:19:39.640 sacrifice in the process? You know, what does DV do 2:19:39.920 --> 2:19:41.800 to you know? How much does he want to work 2:19:41.840 --> 2:19:44.000 with them? And how much danger is he willing to 2:19:44.200 --> 2:19:49.920 put himself in? You know, for David who works at 2:19:50.040 --> 2:19:53.160 the you know, the quote unquote urban radio station. You 2:19:53.240 --> 2:19:55.800 know how he wants hip hop to be on the 2:19:55.840 --> 2:19:58.120 air so much, But is he is he willing to 2:19:58.240 --> 2:20:02.520 understand that, you know, it's business not just you know, 2:20:02.640 --> 2:20:05.480 to give people moral lessons on you know, the hip 2:20:05.520 --> 2:20:08.440 hop should be. You know that there he may have to, 2:20:08.840 --> 2:20:12.720 you know, take a little advice from his father to 2:20:12.840 --> 2:20:14.120 do some of the things he wants to do. 2:20:16.280 --> 2:20:20.120 What Harris his character? I want to ask you about 2:20:20.160 --> 2:20:22.280 him because I feel like some of these characters are 2:20:22.400 --> 2:20:24.640 like an amalgamation of a few people. Some of them 2:20:24.680 --> 2:20:26.160 may be just one person that you knew, But what 2:20:26.360 --> 2:20:30.279 Harris's character a few people, one person. 2:20:30.920 --> 2:20:34.280 Few people, you know, I think they're definitely shades of 2:20:34.360 --> 2:20:37.880 Russell there would when he plays them, he channels a 2:20:37.959 --> 2:20:41.680 lot of Dame you know. Yeah, there's a manic energy 2:20:41.720 --> 2:20:44.640 there that even Russell. Can't you know, it's not it's 2:20:45.040 --> 2:20:49.119 more Dame or Puff than it is Russell. But he's 2:20:49.160 --> 2:20:53.119 also he's the great thing about watching this season, one 2:20:53.120 --> 2:20:56.720 of the best things anyway, was watching these characters make 2:20:57.320 --> 2:21:00.800 like Barry Foray is his own thing. Now. He's not Russell, 2:21:00.879 --> 2:21:03.280 he's not Dame. He's Barry for Ray and you can 2:21:03.400 --> 2:21:05.680 see him there in nineteen ninety and it makes sense 2:21:05.800 --> 2:21:10.039 and the character has some Integrity's. 2:21:08.920 --> 2:21:11.280 Love the way into it. For the lead character, the female, 2:21:11.280 --> 2:21:15.400 I'm start forget her name after the actress Chage. 2:21:16.120 --> 2:21:16.640 Yeah she is. 2:21:16.760 --> 2:21:19.520 You are introducing the concept of the intern and really 2:21:19.800 --> 2:21:21.680 that because you know that time is over now. So 2:21:21.760 --> 2:21:23.920 it's interested in telling the story of a music intern 2:21:24.000 --> 2:21:25.840 and what they had to go to a female music 2:21:26.000 --> 2:21:29.560 intern in that world. And I almost wonder with two 2:21:29.600 --> 2:21:31.959 males in the situation, who like, is there another female 2:21:32.000 --> 2:21:33.760 to kind of come in and be like, this is 2:21:34.000 --> 2:21:36.160 a whole different aspect that you don't made me know 2:21:36.280 --> 2:21:37.080 or did you just already? 2:21:37.840 --> 2:21:42.800 Like Nikki will have a few mentors to choose from, say, 2:21:43.080 --> 2:21:46.240 over the course of the season, and Mac, I mean 2:21:47.120 --> 2:21:49.360 yeah for me, didn't even talk about the DJ battle. 2:21:50.000 --> 2:21:54.680 Mac enrolled himself in Scratch Academy to learn how to 2:21:54.840 --> 2:21:56.320 DJ so he could participate. 2:21:57.520 --> 2:22:09.760 And wow, what's that? What's his name? Your boy? Ryan 2:22:09.879 --> 2:22:14.400 gosling Uh took up six months of piano lessons to 2:22:14.480 --> 2:22:18.879 play all the actual he's actually playing all that jazz 2:22:18.920 --> 2:22:22.840 stuff and the fingerings correct and the chords are correct. Wow, 2:22:23.080 --> 2:22:24.080 that's him actually playing. 2:22:24.680 --> 2:22:26.560 We'll talk about back in that way. And also his 2:22:26.800 --> 2:22:28.920 like history with music because he's like a different kind 2:22:28.959 --> 2:22:31.080 of actor in the sense of playing a role like this, 2:22:31.320 --> 2:22:34.240 his relationship with hip hop and his commitment, it's different. 2:22:34.320 --> 2:22:36.240 I feel like, yeah, well, he grew up in stat 2:22:36.320 --> 2:22:38.520 Ny and his father cut all the dudes from the 2:22:38.560 --> 2:22:39.880 Wu Tang clan's hair. 2:22:40.120 --> 2:22:40.280 You know. 2:22:40.440 --> 2:22:43.080 He he's known method man since he was a kid. 2:22:43.320 --> 2:22:45.520 Who plays his dad, right, who plays his dad? 2:22:46.240 --> 2:22:51.760 Fun fact, but actually read for that role somewhere, hopefully 2:22:51.840 --> 2:22:58.560 on a hard drive, fucking buried way somewhere audition audition 2:22:58.720 --> 2:23:01.920 for for his role, and I didn't think it would work. 2:23:02.000 --> 2:23:03.360 I was like, I'm gonna just do this shit anyway. 2:23:03.520 --> 2:23:05.680 I don't think I maybe play his uncle, but I 2:23:05.760 --> 2:23:06.440 didn't play. 2:23:06.360 --> 2:23:10.320 That dream had to die. So in MoMA leve Yes. 2:23:10.640 --> 2:23:14.160 Yet there was also a character we had. It was 2:23:14.240 --> 2:23:18.560 a scene we cut the Fred Jamal, the record store guy, 2:23:19.760 --> 2:23:21.440 and that was one of the things that like, really 2:23:21.520 --> 2:23:24.120 I like because we kind of get the show. You know, 2:23:24.200 --> 2:23:26.080 we're playing with history and you sometimes you get to 2:23:26.120 --> 2:23:29.320 show how wrong people got it. And so there was 2:23:29.400 --> 2:23:33.240 one scene where the guy David, he goes to the 2:23:33.400 --> 2:23:36.520 record store and he asked the guy in the record store, hey, 2:23:37.200 --> 2:23:39.680 give me I want to take some pictures of the 2:23:39.760 --> 2:23:41.800 customers who are in here buying hip hop, you know 2:23:41.800 --> 2:23:42.119 what I mean. 2:23:42.480 --> 2:23:44.960 And so he then takes those pictures and goes to 2:23:45.360 --> 2:23:48.240 his you know, goes to his boss and it's like, yo, 2:23:48.360 --> 2:23:50.480 these people are like hip hop. But the thing is, 2:23:50.560 --> 2:23:54.680 the guy at the store is saying, Hey, I don't 2:23:54.720 --> 2:23:56.920 want them to play hip hop on the radio because 2:23:56.920 --> 2:23:59.520 if they played on the radio, they're not gonna buy it. 2:24:00.879 --> 2:24:04.840 Not yeah, not even getting that, Like, no, motherfucker, that 2:24:05.240 --> 2:24:07.640 is what will bring people to me. But he was just, 2:24:07.800 --> 2:24:09.640 you know, he got it so fucking wrong, you know 2:24:09.640 --> 2:24:11.600 what I mean. And there's little things that you'll see 2:24:11.640 --> 2:24:15.000 in the season where you know, people will make statements 2:24:15.040 --> 2:24:17.560 and it's just like oh my god, Yeah, you know, you. 2:24:17.560 --> 2:24:22.360 Don't once told us that Pete crap, are you serious? 2:24:22.440 --> 2:24:25.720 When he was doing his long time first he was like, yo, man, 2:24:25.760 --> 2:24:28.400 I don't want to come out with a record because like, 2:24:28.560 --> 2:24:33.119 once you make a record, you're whack. I don't it's 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:36.280 like seeing you want to just do mixtapes all your life. 2:24:36.920 --> 2:24:40.080 So yeah, there's a mystery to it, like people are 2:24:40.080 --> 2:24:43.320 still waiting for me. But like once the now comes out, wow, 2:24:43.840 --> 2:24:47.400 then you know wow. 2:24:48.080 --> 2:24:49.080 I don't think he never did. 2:24:49.040 --> 2:24:56.280 He never he could be an aquarium. I'm sorry, but yeah, 2:24:56.600 --> 2:24:57.360 but but yeah, we. 2:24:57.400 --> 2:25:00.520 Have little moments like that that are really uh you know, 2:25:00.680 --> 2:25:03.320 you're watching it with the knowledge of what happens to 2:25:03.440 --> 2:25:07.160 these people or people will held those thoughts, and that's 2:25:07.200 --> 2:25:09.480 been fun for me, like kind of seeing how that 2:25:09.560 --> 2:25:14.080 plays out, just tuning in before you. 2:25:16.160 --> 2:25:22.320 I I'm looking, Okay, is it. 2:25:23.840 --> 2:25:23.880 This? 2:25:26.360 --> 2:25:26.400 No? 2:25:26.560 --> 2:25:33.280 Damn wow? No, I guess it's right up under your 2:25:33.320 --> 2:25:37.040 nose like you. I gotta watch it again on television. No, no, no, 2:25:37.200 --> 2:25:39.920 you ain't gotta know this is. This doesn't happen till later, 2:25:40.640 --> 2:25:42.600 So it ain't. It ain't air yet. It hasn't air yet. 2:25:42.640 --> 2:25:47.560 It's the final episode. Yeah, it's coming so but you 2:25:47.720 --> 2:25:51.560 closed though, saying when I hear this joint, I'm gonna 2:25:52.000 --> 2:25:56.720 want to kick my television off the plasmas. 2:25:56.520 --> 2:26:02.840 Like yes, because that's something that's so obvious and it's 2:26:02.879 --> 2:26:05.840 something that has been and it's not Artilus. 2:26:06.400 --> 2:26:08.680 No, it's not that. That was one of the ones 2:26:08.680 --> 2:26:12.840 that we were looking at. But he Prema already used part. No, 2:26:13.000 --> 2:26:16.240 it's not all less because PREMI used it. My mind spray. 2:26:16.280 --> 2:26:17.560 Already did that for Jay Rue. 2:26:17.800 --> 2:26:20.640 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah did my spray and the and 2:26:21.040 --> 2:26:24.840 the group home? Yeah yeah, that sounds like, yeah I 2:26:24.959 --> 2:26:26.120 did that one. You know what I'm saying. We did 2:26:26.160 --> 2:26:29.720 that one and the night ju you know what I'm saying. 2:26:30.440 --> 2:26:32.920 And then my mind spray. You know what I'm saying, 2:26:33.040 --> 2:26:37.640 we did that one. I was like, okay, Primo, so yeah, 2:26:37.800 --> 2:26:39.520 but no, it ain't that one. It ain't that But 2:26:39.800 --> 2:26:41.480 I mean you it's right up on your nose like 2:26:41.560 --> 2:26:45.160 you he be like, what the fuck? The only last 2:26:45.200 --> 2:26:47.920 one that he used was did he use it before? No, 2:26:48.840 --> 2:26:49.800 Preme never used it before. 2:26:49.800 --> 2:26:53.039 He never used it, which is why it sounds fresh. 2:26:54.600 --> 2:27:00.200 Oh man, did red Man use it before? I know 2:27:00.280 --> 2:27:00.760 what you think? 2:27:06.040 --> 2:27:06.080 Not? 2:27:06.640 --> 2:27:10.000 No, one just tuning in is ques Low Supreme. We 2:27:10.040 --> 2:27:17.080 got him playing bitch. You guess I'm right, God, I 2:27:17.160 --> 2:27:20.600 got a question? Can I ask a questions? Quose your 2:27:20.720 --> 2:27:21.880 show bill? 2:27:22.120 --> 2:27:24.040 First of all, Dan is also a teacher, and we 2:27:24.080 --> 2:27:25.760 didn't we haven't got to that part. Yeah, we teach 2:27:25.800 --> 2:27:27.720 at the same school, I know, which is amazing. 2:27:27.760 --> 2:27:28.560 I forgot fantastic. 2:27:28.600 --> 2:27:30.080 But you walked in you said, you said Martin Man 2:27:30.520 --> 2:27:32.400 was in my class, and I feel like that was 2:27:32.440 --> 2:27:34.200 a big thing that we then went into this whole 2:27:34.240 --> 2:27:39.160 crazy batshit show and the real because he was on 2:27:39.280 --> 2:27:41.440 this show and he was it was amazing. And I'm 2:27:41.440 --> 2:27:43.280 sure you have a story too well. 2:27:43.360 --> 2:27:45.160 I mean, he's just first of all, to even come 2:27:45.360 --> 2:27:48.360 to a small class and to and to talk about 2:27:48.440 --> 2:27:52.280 his career. You know, we were really just talking. I'm 2:27:52.360 --> 2:27:54.680 teaching a class on the Golden Age of hip hop 2:27:54.760 --> 2:27:57.199 and we're sort of pinning it between the years eighty 2:27:57.280 --> 2:28:00.680 seven and ninety three for a few reasons. And you know, 2:28:00.760 --> 2:28:02.960 he came to talk about the bridge, he came to 2:28:03.040 --> 2:28:08.960 talk about that jump to sample drums, right that, uh, 2:28:09.280 --> 2:28:12.000 And I never knew And this is a whole sort 2:28:12.040 --> 2:28:14.120 of nerd thing, but I never knew. I always thought 2:28:14.160 --> 2:28:16.120 that the bridge was made on an SB twelve hundred. 2:28:16.560 --> 2:28:21.400 No, he talked about dude. When he told us that 2:28:21.760 --> 2:28:24.720 we just that, and when he told us that the shakers, 2:28:24.879 --> 2:28:27.640 oh my god, the shakers that make the music is him, 2:28:28.240 --> 2:28:33.760 that's him doing. He's literally making the music. Was the 2:28:33.800 --> 2:28:36.039 whole four hours was like, No, you didn't, Yes, it did. 2:28:36.240 --> 2:28:40.200 That was pretty much. I mean, next to Whitney and 2:28:40.440 --> 2:28:44.360 TEJ Swin. Oh my god. So apparently there was a 2:28:44.480 --> 2:28:47.119 story that was close to being a Whitney and TJ. 2:28:47.280 --> 2:28:54.800 Swan duett there's no place right, Yeah, Whitney. 2:28:54.640 --> 2:28:57.119 Exactly make the music with your mouth, Bobby. 2:28:58.400 --> 2:29:03.400 Whitney and Thomas Jerome Swan together. Yeah, Bro, Marty had 2:29:03.400 --> 2:29:05.960 crazy stories. So like did the kids like, so when 2:29:06.320 --> 2:29:08.920 you have someone like Marty come in, are they aware 2:29:09.120 --> 2:29:12.160 of who they're looking at? And like, you know what 2:29:12.320 --> 2:29:12.720 that means? 2:29:12.840 --> 2:29:17.959 Surprisingly? This class really was so, you know, because they're young, 2:29:18.000 --> 2:29:20.040 and I'm not saying surprising because they're really good students, 2:29:20.120 --> 2:29:23.840 but I mean they were born after Tupac died, you know, 2:29:24.120 --> 2:29:25.840 so what do they know what? 2:29:26.400 --> 2:29:35.200 And ap right? Right? Wow? 2:29:36.600 --> 2:29:38.760 Yeah, but I love I love teaching. 2:29:39.240 --> 2:29:42.120 One of your students was Maggie Rogers. That's right. That 2:29:42.400 --> 2:29:47.960 was Oh she's dope. I can't claim her either. No, No, 2:29:48.160 --> 2:29:50.640 she's my student too, but she's more. Yeah. 2:29:50.720 --> 2:29:53.640 Yeah, she was my first student, my very first class 2:29:53.640 --> 2:29:54.280 that I ever taught. 2:29:54.720 --> 2:29:59.480 She Maggie Rogers is she's a young singer songwriter. Pharrell 2:29:59.560 --> 2:30:02.480 did a video, Yo, this has been your Bob power 2:30:02.879 --> 2:30:05.880 where they just you know, they played records. You know, 2:30:06.000 --> 2:30:08.520 you could play your records for phar real, you know 2:30:08.520 --> 2:30:10.400 what I mean. He came in and and kind of 2:30:10.440 --> 2:30:13.720 gave him notes, and so Maggie played her joint and 2:30:14.000 --> 2:30:15.680 that was the joint where he was just like, yo, 2:30:15.840 --> 2:30:17.720 I have no notes for this. This ship is crazy, 2:30:18.200 --> 2:30:22.640 and she ended up getting the deal. She's yea, I 2:30:22.760 --> 2:30:27.000 will back up my student in a couple of weeks 2:30:27.080 --> 2:30:27.840 on the Tonight show. 2:30:31.360 --> 2:30:33.040 Yeah so great. 2:30:33.480 --> 2:30:36.119 Yeah, but she's she's dope. She's really she has her 2:30:36.360 --> 2:30:39.360 it's completely singular. She sounds like nothing else. How many 2:30:39.480 --> 2:30:42.320 semesters do you do at the school? 2:30:43.040 --> 2:30:43.720 Fall and spring? 2:30:44.520 --> 2:30:48.640 You do too? Yeah, I can only do. This is 2:30:48.720 --> 2:30:51.320 the first year that I opted not to do it. 2:30:51.440 --> 2:30:54.640 I wanted you to teach the Dela Della class. Well, no, no, no, 2:30:54.879 --> 2:30:57.200 I'm gonna still come in good. But you know what 2:30:57.400 --> 2:31:03.960 when they first when when when they approached me about 2:31:04.360 --> 2:31:07.080 doing it, the idea of doing it because they wanted it, 2:31:07.240 --> 2:31:13.240 like last year's or whatever. I felt weird about it 2:31:13.320 --> 2:31:20.640 because there were there was no no curriculum and no 2:31:21.200 --> 2:31:28.119 periodicals or or or books that I could use to teach. 2:31:28.959 --> 2:31:32.160 And I don't even know if I'm eloquent enough to 2:31:32.280 --> 2:31:38.520 really convey how special he was as a human being 2:31:39.800 --> 2:31:43.720 and as a musician, especially in the age of now, 2:31:43.959 --> 2:31:46.520 which you can easily with the click of a button 2:31:47.600 --> 2:31:50.680 get results, where all your stuff is quantized and if 2:31:50.720 --> 2:31:52.840 you want to, you know, chop up your stuff in 2:31:52.879 --> 2:31:56.760 a certain way. And you know, I'm trying to explain 2:31:56.800 --> 2:31:59.440 to these people like he was making these miracles with 2:31:59.560 --> 2:32:04.960 his bare hands and brain, like before this technology existed, 2:32:05.440 --> 2:32:11.240 like the only way to describe it. H Hendrix's second album, 2:32:11.280 --> 2:32:14.560 Access Bold as Love. You know, we take for advantage, 2:32:14.640 --> 2:32:17.640 we take it for granted. No well, no, no, no, 2:32:17.920 --> 2:32:21.040 just the whole album in general. Like Hendricks Damn Near 2:32:21.440 --> 2:32:26.000 invented the Hendricks and Eddi Kramer invented the technology that 2:32:26.080 --> 2:32:28.880 we take for granted now, the idea of phasing and 2:32:29.240 --> 2:32:32.520 and certain echo effects and chambers udo as instrument. Yeah, 2:32:32.879 --> 2:32:39.040 and you know, so, how what is your goal in 2:32:39.240 --> 2:32:45.080 teaching about Dila that will make it as mind blowing 2:32:45.160 --> 2:32:48.080 for them as it was for me to see that 2:32:48.320 --> 2:32:51.160 stuff firsthand as he's doing. Yeah, you have a theory 2:32:51.480 --> 2:32:53.080 like what you've told to me. 2:32:53.160 --> 2:32:57.240 For like the three inventors I called the three Kings 2:32:57.280 --> 2:33:01.040 of American rhythm. There's Louis Armstrong who basically established swing, 2:33:01.600 --> 2:33:05.320 you know, as sort of the American approach to meter 2:33:05.560 --> 2:33:09.120 in rhythm. James Brown who turned every instrument into a 2:33:09.200 --> 2:33:14.080 drum and the one obviously, and then Dila, who freed 2:33:14.160 --> 2:33:16.560 us from the grid. You know, he established. 2:33:18.400 --> 2:33:22.880 I had to it's only right, you know. 2:33:23.120 --> 2:33:28.320 He he sort of renegotiated the relationship between man and machine. 2:33:28.440 --> 2:33:31.000 To me, now it's different because if you look at 2:33:31.040 --> 2:33:34.119 I know, you got soul right. You have these two 2:33:34.200 --> 2:33:37.480 breakbeat records that really made hip hop funky in a 2:33:37.520 --> 2:33:41.600 way that a quantized drum machine couldn't. But there was 2:33:41.640 --> 2:33:45.400 something about what Dila was doing that for the first time, 2:33:45.600 --> 2:33:49.320 traditional musicians are trying to do what he did. And 2:33:49.520 --> 2:33:53.160 I feel very funny laying this out here because the 2:33:53.320 --> 2:33:57.760 very first traditional musician to, you know, to try to 2:33:58.240 --> 2:34:00.879 succeed in doing that as you Oh. 2:34:00.879 --> 2:34:06.120 Wait, wait, who is it? Like, I gotta know who 2:34:06.160 --> 2:34:15.840 it is? I forgot. I mean, yeah, it's it's it's weird, man. 2:34:15.959 --> 2:34:20.280 It's just like during that period, I was the exact 2:34:20.360 --> 2:34:24.840 opposite because I had such a chip on my sto. Yeah, 2:34:24.840 --> 2:34:29.280 I wanted to be perfect and and it took d 2:34:29.760 --> 2:34:33.440 and Dyla for the most part to unravel that, that 2:34:33.800 --> 2:34:36.920 that yarn that I had wrapped myself in a perfection 2:34:37.120 --> 2:34:42.360 and coldness that it's just hard to describe. Like even today, 2:34:42.520 --> 2:34:48.440 I think, uh, the the cats from the Lumineers were 2:34:48.480 --> 2:34:51.680 on the show today and we were just in our zone. 2:34:51.720 --> 2:34:54.160 We did like three or four Dila joints in a row, 2:34:54.360 --> 2:34:57.000 and you know, I mean there's there's a lot of 2:34:57.080 --> 2:35:00.360 downtime in the show like that. You don't see speaking 2:35:00.360 --> 2:35:04.760 of the tonight show, there's a lot of downtime in 2:35:04.879 --> 2:35:07.880 which sets have to be changed whatever. So we're just 2:35:07.959 --> 2:35:11.600 jamming amongst ourselves and we just got lost in a 2:35:11.680 --> 2:35:16.280 rabbit hole of crazy timing. And you know, I was 2:35:16.320 --> 2:35:18.880 trying to explain to them it was like some new 2:35:19.440 --> 2:35:22.800 you know, the way you guys did that crazy thing 2:35:22.879 --> 2:35:24.880 with the beat. I don't know how to describe it, 2:35:26.480 --> 2:35:29.440 and it was weird, like I couldn't describe it to 2:35:29.560 --> 2:35:35.640 them either. So it's like that that's the fear that 2:35:35.879 --> 2:35:39.720 I feel like I will drop history or or drop 2:35:41.720 --> 2:35:46.640 you know, misrepresent his his importance. But you know, I'm 2:35:46.720 --> 2:35:50.480 glad that you you know that you're you're stepping up 2:35:50.520 --> 2:35:51.119 to well. 2:35:51.120 --> 2:35:54.720 I don't claim to be a Della expert by any stretch. 2:35:54.879 --> 2:35:58.920 I mean, my personal history is weird in this sense 2:35:58.959 --> 2:36:01.440 because my very first trip to Detroit was to work 2:36:01.480 --> 2:36:05.920 with him Gino and Gino excel and I flew to Detroit. Yeah, 2:36:06.360 --> 2:36:11.360 and the other one, the one would Sphere and how 2:36:11.440 --> 2:36:12.760 it Goes, I think is the name of that song. 2:36:13.200 --> 2:36:16.039 So we flew to Detroit. 2:36:16.240 --> 2:36:19.840 We stayed, you know, downtown, We drove out to Gardens 2:36:19.959 --> 2:36:23.640 we yeah, athanaeum right, and we went to his house 2:36:23.720 --> 2:36:27.440 on Nevada and met my duke's and went downstairs and 2:36:27.720 --> 2:36:30.480 Common was recording like Water for Chocolate with him. Around 2:36:30.520 --> 2:36:33.800 that time, we went to the Mongolian barbecue and deeborn 2:36:33.879 --> 2:36:37.040 dearborn across from studio A like the whole thing, And 2:36:37.360 --> 2:36:39.640 what was really weird is Adilla laid the tracks and 2:36:39.800 --> 2:36:44.120 then vanished. Oh wow, and that was it, basically, you know. 2:36:44.920 --> 2:36:47.600 And I understand that sometimes that was the way he 2:36:47.760 --> 2:36:51.080 worked or whatever, and that I would never have imagined 2:36:51.120 --> 2:36:53.480 that moment that I would have sort of another part 2:36:53.520 --> 2:36:55.800 of my life in Detroit many years later. My wife 2:36:55.879 --> 2:36:58.240 is from Detroit. I'm back there all the time, and 2:36:58.360 --> 2:37:00.440 every time i'm there, I think of that first time. 2:37:00.480 --> 2:37:02.640 And that's where the genesis of the class came from. 2:37:04.200 --> 2:37:07.040 So does she say what up? Though she does not. 2:37:07.640 --> 2:37:07.880 She does. 2:37:10.080 --> 2:37:12.760 She's a poet and a tenured professor at the New School, 2:37:12.840 --> 2:37:17.280 so she does not say, yeah, but I want to 2:37:17.480 --> 2:37:19.600 here's the theory. Here's the theory about Dila time. I 2:37:19.640 --> 2:37:22.400 wanted to run it by you, and I'm thinking of 2:37:23.200 --> 2:37:26.560 sort of staking a claim that because everybody's talking about 2:37:26.560 --> 2:37:28.440 what is what is Diyl time? Oh well, it's just 2:37:28.800 --> 2:37:31.840 he doesn't quantize the beasts. That's good, that's not exactly it. 2:37:31.959 --> 2:37:34.800 And oh it's septuplet swing. But yeah, but that doesn't 2:37:34.800 --> 2:37:38.560 account for the for the rushed snare. So my feeling 2:37:38.680 --> 2:37:40.880 is that Dila time, what Dila time really is? What 2:37:41.080 --> 2:37:44.480 what all of the traditional and electronic musicians are trying 2:37:44.520 --> 2:37:50.000 to do. Is it's the deliberate cultivation, uh of tension 2:37:50.959 --> 2:37:55.920 between straight and swung elements in a song, and that 2:37:56.120 --> 2:37:58.320 tension is dynamic, it changes over time. 2:37:59.440 --> 2:38:03.280 That's that's that's the Thelonious Monk theory, remember his idea 2:38:03.280 --> 2:38:06.480 of subnes. But there's the rhythm version of it. And 2:38:06.560 --> 2:38:09.920 it's weird because between Dyla there's Prince and the risk, 2:38:11.800 --> 2:38:15.039 both of them, both of whom I consider the risk 2:38:15.120 --> 2:38:19.120 more the accidental tourist where you take a song like 2:38:19.320 --> 2:38:24.240 uh yeah. Verbal Intercourse is a perfect example of that, 2:38:24.640 --> 2:38:26.960 where it's just like sounds funky, leave it like it is. 2:38:28.080 --> 2:38:33.600 And Prince well, Susan Rodgers recently admit it because if 2:38:33.640 --> 2:38:38.440 you listen to the Prince's stuff, you'll notice that he'll 2:38:38.640 --> 2:38:44.160 program almost uh kind of like in sixty four bars, 2:38:44.840 --> 2:38:48.200 you're really supposed to do four, maybe eight, maybe sixteen 2:38:48.280 --> 2:38:50.840 of your club, but sixty four bars that means you're 2:38:50.879 --> 2:38:54.720 planning ahead of time with drum feels that only will 2:38:54.760 --> 2:38:59.520 come around maybe once in your song, right, And that's 2:38:59.560 --> 2:39:02.880 how Masi was. But he would also save tracks and 2:39:02.959 --> 2:39:06.160 which he would do stuff by hand just so it 2:39:06.200 --> 2:39:07.160 can sound human. 2:39:07.840 --> 2:39:10.600 Well, you were the person who described the toree in 2:39:10.720 --> 2:39:14.720 his book, the the straight clap from the drum machine 2:39:14.720 --> 2:39:18.600 and Lady cab Driver. But he's playing by hand, right, Yeah, 2:39:19.240 --> 2:39:22.040 then he does this other thing rhythmically with the bass. Right. 2:39:22.400 --> 2:39:26.040 If you listen to like Irresistible Bitch or Tricky, he 2:39:26.240 --> 2:39:31.840 will give you almost a shell of what the baseline is. 2:39:32.000 --> 2:39:36.320 He'll play like two notes out of eight, right, but 2:39:38.000 --> 2:39:40.640 for the eight, so you hear the eight, but you 2:39:40.760 --> 2:39:41.520 don't hear the eight. 2:39:43.240 --> 2:39:46.080 Oh my god, we're brothers. That's why I was surprised 2:39:46.120 --> 2:39:47.520 that I had never met each other. I was like, 2:39:47.720 --> 2:39:52.240 you have you have met boys show? Wait? 2:39:52.280 --> 2:39:54.160 Were you there at the time? I may have been there, 2:39:54.200 --> 2:39:57.360 But here's where we met. We met when I worked 2:39:57.400 --> 2:40:00.520 for Forrest. I came to Sigma Sound to meet with 2:40:00.920 --> 2:40:06.000 Richard right who rest in peace man. I never had 2:40:06.000 --> 2:40:08.280 a chance to tell you in person. I was so 2:40:08.440 --> 2:40:13.680 sad to hear his passing. And then after that, the 2:40:13.760 --> 2:40:19.120 next saw you was out in the musicology tour in 2:40:19.879 --> 2:40:26.240 the meadowlands. It was it was you were just walking 2:40:26.360 --> 2:40:28.720 and getting a drink from the water fountain in the middle, 2:40:28.840 --> 2:40:30.560 you know, in the middle of this Prince concert for 2:40:30.920 --> 2:40:33.360 college and I just walked up to you. I didn't 2:40:33.360 --> 2:40:36.160 even introduce myself. I just said, you're my favorite drummer. 2:40:37.800 --> 2:40:40.240 That's all I said. That's all I said. And then 2:40:40.280 --> 2:40:42.560 I think the next time I saw you was when 2:40:42.600 --> 2:40:46.280 I did the Experienced Music Project thing on Breakbeats and 2:40:46.400 --> 2:40:50.240 you were That's when you played the Rod Temperton uh 2:40:52.800 --> 2:40:56.680 demo for you. Wo. 2:40:57.000 --> 2:40:59.640 Yes, what did I tell you already? 2:40:59.720 --> 2:40:59.879 Yeah? 2:41:00.040 --> 2:41:04.440 Yeah, yeah, I'm waiting. I'm waiting. Yeah, we'll talk. Okay, 2:41:04.480 --> 2:41:07.200 we'll talk after hey, but it's a pleasure to be 2:41:07.320 --> 2:41:07.640 here now. 2:41:07.720 --> 2:41:08.520 Better late than never. 2:41:08.959 --> 2:41:15.200 Like I want to talk about meats and plots, man, 2:41:15.720 --> 2:41:18.480 I want to talk about you know, so this book 2:41:18.720 --> 2:41:21.800 it was after you wrote The Big Payback. Uh, this 2:41:22.040 --> 2:41:26.080 is a book about how shifts can teach you how 2:41:26.120 --> 2:41:31.920 to organize your life. So tell us about like the 2:41:32.000 --> 2:41:34.960 principles of that, Like what are the and by the way, 2:41:35.000 --> 2:41:37.480 I actually bought this book, I have to read it. 2:41:37.840 --> 2:41:41.520 Work clean is the name, So tell us about that, 2:41:41.760 --> 2:41:43.640 like just the philosophy of meats and plots and what 2:41:43.760 --> 2:41:44.119 that means. 2:41:44.600 --> 2:41:48.160 After I wrote The Big Payback. You know, it's a 2:41:48.200 --> 2:41:51.879 six hundred and sixty page book, and I just was drained, 2:41:52.080 --> 2:41:54.560 you know, and I had a wife and a baby 2:41:54.640 --> 2:41:57.880 and a you know, I didn't I couldn't imagine myself 2:41:57.959 --> 2:42:02.000 writing another book, and you know, we were developing the breaks, 2:42:02.080 --> 2:42:04.080 so you know, I had other things to do. 2:42:04.920 --> 2:42:06.440 And how long did it take you to write? 2:42:07.200 --> 2:42:10.520 Just four years? Really really heavy. But my first interview 2:42:10.560 --> 2:42:12.959 I did for The Big Payback was ten years before 2:42:13.200 --> 2:42:19.959 the book came out, So, you know, work Clean came 2:42:20.080 --> 2:42:23.840 out of the pain of the interim. You know, after 2:42:24.080 --> 2:42:26.000 The Big Payback came out, and I was still working 2:42:26.120 --> 2:42:32.920 at a corporate media company which shall be unmentioned, and 2:42:33.120 --> 2:42:35.800 it was just painful to see. 2:42:36.080 --> 2:42:38.320 At you working there with boss Bill with a branch 2:42:38.360 --> 2:42:38.920 out that's. 2:42:38.840 --> 2:42:41.480 Right, that's right where where This is a very funny 2:42:41.480 --> 2:42:44.640 story when when Bill came in to interview for the 2:42:44.800 --> 2:42:48.680 job and I found out that he was actually DJ brainchild, 2:42:49.400 --> 2:42:51.840 I got down on my knees, literally got down on 2:42:51.879 --> 2:42:55.680 my knees and bowed to him. And Jerry Barrow said 2:42:55.720 --> 2:42:57.600 to me, you know, that's really not going to help 2:42:57.640 --> 2:43:04.560 with the salary negotiations. Yeah, well, he's a genius and 2:43:04.640 --> 2:43:07.760 I'm sorry he's not here right now. But uh so, 2:43:08.560 --> 2:43:12.000 the pain of seeing waste on such a broad scale, 2:43:12.280 --> 2:43:17.039 you know, waste of time, waste of resources, waste of space, 2:43:18.120 --> 2:43:21.320 waste of relationships. And at the time I was just 2:43:21.720 --> 2:43:24.440 to sort of unwind or whatever, I would read chef 2:43:24.560 --> 2:43:27.120 narratives all the time. So I read Anthony Bourdain and 2:43:27.200 --> 2:43:33.279 Michael Roohman and oh the book Heat by Bill Buford, 2:43:33.440 --> 2:43:37.080 like just the amazing books about the culinary world, not cookbooks, 2:43:37.640 --> 2:43:41.000 but about chef's lives in the kitchen. And these are 2:43:41.120 --> 2:43:43.480 you know, wild people and wild narratives. But the one 2:43:43.560 --> 2:43:46.120 thing that ties them all together is this discipline that 2:43:46.200 --> 2:43:47.400 they call meson plas. 2:43:47.520 --> 2:43:47.640 Right. 2:43:48.040 --> 2:43:52.199 It's a way of relating to time, space, energy, and motion. 2:43:52.959 --> 2:43:54.960 And it was the only thing that I really wanted 2:43:55.000 --> 2:43:57.119 to write about, and the reason I wanted to write 2:43:57.120 --> 2:43:59.000 about it because I look for a book on meson 2:43:59.040 --> 2:44:02.000 plas and nobody had ever written one. So I just 2:44:02.240 --> 2:44:04.560 used the tools of the journalist again, and I interviewed 2:44:04.640 --> 2:44:06.640 over one hundred people from the culinary field over the 2:44:06.680 --> 2:44:09.040 course of two years. I did an NPR story based 2:44:09.120 --> 2:44:13.959 on that sort of boiled it down to ten principles, right, 2:44:15.000 --> 2:44:19.480 But they're all about relating to time, space, motion, resources, 2:44:20.400 --> 2:44:24.680 and just like the way that chefs think about things 2:44:24.720 --> 2:44:28.000 are is not the way that we think. And for 2:44:28.120 --> 2:44:30.280 each of the ten principles, I, you know, tell a 2:44:30.360 --> 2:44:32.560 story of a chef. And one of those chefs happened 2:44:32.600 --> 2:44:35.800 to be Jerobi White of a Tribe call Quest, whom 2:44:35.840 --> 2:44:38.480 I had never met, even though I had interviewed. I 2:44:38.600 --> 2:44:40.960 did the very first press day for trib call Quest, 2:44:41.560 --> 2:44:44.080 like when they came out in ninety nine, But I 2:44:44.200 --> 2:44:46.280 never met Jeroby all this time, We've probably been in 2:44:46.320 --> 2:44:49.080 a million rooms together and never met. And I'm so 2:44:49.280 --> 2:44:51.200 lucky to count him as a friend now. But I 2:44:51.280 --> 2:44:53.200 get to tell his story in that book We're Clean. 2:44:53.680 --> 2:44:56.600 It's a great story. And his his story is about 2:44:57.520 --> 2:45:01.000 perfecting movements right, how he learned to stop wasting motion 2:45:02.120 --> 2:45:04.320 and to be really focused in the kitchen. And Jerobi 2:45:04.360 --> 2:45:06.760 actually came up with the science of the magic triangle, 2:45:07.160 --> 2:45:10.359 right man, that everything we do is basically a triangle, 2:45:10.600 --> 2:45:13.240 you know, and we're a circle within a triangle, and 2:45:14.040 --> 2:45:15.520 that's how we should arrange our space. 2:45:15.640 --> 2:45:19.520 Have you seen have you seen the founder the Michael 2:45:19.720 --> 2:45:25.360 Doug Michael Douglas, Michael Keaton knowing about McDonald's across you 2:45:25.440 --> 2:45:28.440 saw it? I seen it and almost broke my my 2:45:28.720 --> 2:45:35.560 uh my vegan run cheeseburger right after they talk about 2:45:35.720 --> 2:45:38.000 oh it's it's really good. It's like it's cold blood 2:45:38.040 --> 2:45:38.840 as fun but it's good. 2:45:38.879 --> 2:45:43.320 But they kind of the McDonald brothers they kind of 2:45:44.200 --> 2:45:47.840 were doing that, like the way they set up their 2:45:47.879 --> 2:45:52.000 original you know, McDonald's restaurant. It was based on you know, 2:45:52.200 --> 2:45:55.720 economy of movement like everything. It's funny to hear, like 2:45:55.840 --> 2:45:57.920 choreograph perfect it was. Yeah, it was really like a 2:45:58.040 --> 2:46:01.840 routine like the like they practiced in the court on 2:46:01.879 --> 2:46:02.400 the tennis court. 2:46:02.480 --> 2:46:02.640 Yeah. 2:46:02.680 --> 2:46:05.960 Yeah, they practiced before they even got McDonald's, Like, okay, 2:46:06.320 --> 2:46:08.039 you do that most in that motion, like not even 2:46:08.160 --> 2:46:11.600 carrying anything. They were just practicing the body motion of 2:46:11.720 --> 2:46:14.000 how to get you once is off, they go here 2:46:14.160 --> 2:46:16.400 and then we switch and then like this ship is crazy. 2:46:16.600 --> 2:46:18.560 Y'all have like a quest love supreme movie night where 2:46:18.600 --> 2:46:19.840 y'all just go to the Marines together. 2:46:20.280 --> 2:46:23.480 We need just you know, I mean a book list, 2:46:24.720 --> 2:46:25.360 a movie night. 2:46:25.560 --> 2:46:28.160 Well, now we won't get the should we barely watch 2:46:28.320 --> 2:46:31.800 Uh we did watch what's called as a family kind 2:46:31.840 --> 2:46:37.000 of not sleep out with meis joint? Oh yeah, yeah, 2:46:37.040 --> 2:46:40.680 yeah twice don't they watch that we did the musical lesson? 2:46:41.120 --> 2:46:46.320 Uh, that was good exactly. There's one that you one 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:48.200 of their principles that really spoke to me. You talk 2:46:48.200 --> 2:46:49.320 about clean as you go. 2:46:51.000 --> 2:46:51.560 Very important. 2:46:52.120 --> 2:46:53.760 Talk about that one. Well. 2:46:54.360 --> 2:46:59.600 The science behind clean as you go is that anybody 2:47:00.080 --> 2:47:03.280 and create a system, like you decide you're going to 2:47:03.360 --> 2:47:06.160 organize your desk, right, and you spend two hours or 2:47:06.200 --> 2:47:08.640 three hours or a whole day organizing your space. And 2:47:08.720 --> 2:47:13.600 it's great, right, And it doesn't mean shit because unless 2:47:13.680 --> 2:47:18.360 you maintain a system, you can't keep a system. And 2:47:18.480 --> 2:47:20.520 the only way to maintain a system is to clean 2:47:20.560 --> 2:47:23.480 as you go, is to keep the system through motion. 2:47:23.959 --> 2:47:24.080 Right. 2:47:24.520 --> 2:47:26.840 A system is not to be looked at, right, Oh, 2:47:26.920 --> 2:47:30.240 I've organized things. It's like, you know, the system is 2:47:30.360 --> 2:47:32.560 not a noun, it's a verb. Right, So you have 2:47:32.640 --> 2:47:34.840 to be able to move through things. So you have 2:47:35.000 --> 2:47:38.840 to make that commitment to you know, put things back 2:47:39.400 --> 2:47:44.120 where they go, right. And that doesn't just work for 2:47:44.160 --> 2:47:46.360 the physical world. It also works for the virtual world. 2:47:46.400 --> 2:47:49.520 It works for the emotional world, right, And it's just 2:47:49.600 --> 2:47:54.840 about taking that extra two seconds to put something away 2:47:55.080 --> 2:47:58.960 so that you're not costing yourself. You know, a minute 2:47:59.120 --> 2:48:02.240 or two later, or you know, making a real mistake. 2:48:02.480 --> 2:48:04.360 You know I did. One of the stories I tell 2:48:04.440 --> 2:48:06.080 that book is how my burn my I got like 2:48:06.160 --> 2:48:09.040 second degree burns on my hand because my dear wife 2:48:09.320 --> 2:48:12.160 put very hot pan down on top of the garbage 2:48:12.200 --> 2:48:14.480 can where hot pant is not supposed to go. Yeah, 2:48:14.560 --> 2:48:17.240 you know, and but it was my failure for not 2:48:17.360 --> 2:48:21.160 being aware. That's one of the principles is awareness. And 2:48:21.520 --> 2:48:25.000 you know she wasn't, you know, maintaining her system as 2:48:25.080 --> 2:48:26.640 she went. So we both had to learn from. 2:48:26.640 --> 2:48:28.040 How do you apply this to your life? 2:48:28.040 --> 2:48:30.960 Because I know you're like we like, I mean, you 2:48:31.040 --> 2:48:34.160 talk a lot about like meditation and stuff. You're like 2:48:34.360 --> 2:48:37.240 heavy into yoga orly you know what I'm saying. 2:48:37.280 --> 2:48:39.040 And you were telling me about like last time it 2:48:39.160 --> 2:48:41.040 was a it was like some kind of squat that 2:48:41.160 --> 2:48:45.960 you do that transfers the sexual energy out of your 2:48:46.000 --> 2:48:48.160 body so you don't be thinking about fucking these holes. 2:48:48.600 --> 2:48:50.400 I can't I can't remember the name of that squad, 2:48:50.480 --> 2:48:54.800 but it was no but he no, he was. He 2:48:54.959 --> 2:48:56.480 was giving me game for focus. 2:48:56.560 --> 2:48:58.640 I'm saying, I'm really real, I. 2:49:00.160 --> 2:49:09.640 Like everybody, So how do you applow this? Because I mean, dude, 2:49:09.760 --> 2:49:11.840 like from I know what life was like for me 2:49:11.920 --> 2:49:14.280 when we were working on the breaks, and I can 2:49:14.360 --> 2:49:16.480 only imagine what the fuck was like for you in 2:49:16.600 --> 2:49:21.360 between that and NYU and you know, family, how do 2:49:21.440 --> 2:49:22.440 you apply this to your life? 2:49:22.440 --> 2:49:24.200 I'm not perfect at it. I mean I have I 2:49:24.320 --> 2:49:26.160 do too much and I get sick, you know, and 2:49:26.280 --> 2:49:28.720 that's not good. You know, I got pneumonia last year. 2:49:29.320 --> 2:49:34.640 Like it was. It was bad, Yeah, damn. 2:49:34.800 --> 2:49:38.600 But uh, you know, for me, you know, one of 2:49:38.600 --> 2:49:41.720 the principles that's really helped me is, you know, the 2:49:41.879 --> 2:49:44.280 idea of what do you do? What do you choose 2:49:44.360 --> 2:49:45.040 to do first? 2:49:45.360 --> 2:49:45.480 Right? 2:49:45.879 --> 2:49:48.480 And all of the systems of organization that are very 2:49:48.600 --> 2:49:52.800 popular talk about you do the worst first, right. Stephen 2:49:52.920 --> 2:49:55.440 Covey all of his books like talks about you put 2:49:55.480 --> 2:49:57.840 the big rocks in the jar first, not the small rocks, 2:49:57.879 --> 2:50:00.000 because the big rocks are what counting. If you don't 2:50:00.080 --> 2:50:02.120 get the big rocks in first, you know, and you 2:50:02.240 --> 2:50:03.920 put the small rocks in, how are you ever going 2:50:03.959 --> 2:50:04.800 to get the big rocks in? 2:50:05.040 --> 2:50:05.200 Right? 2:50:05.480 --> 2:50:08.320 All that do the worst first, And the thing is 2:50:08.800 --> 2:50:10.039 you don't do. 2:50:10.160 --> 2:50:11.880 The worst first out that it takes it out of you, 2:50:12.120 --> 2:50:13.080 Like you don't do it else. 2:50:13.640 --> 2:50:16.320 For another reason is that chefs actually see the world 2:50:16.440 --> 2:50:21.160 in two separate, like parallel kinds of time. There's process 2:50:21.280 --> 2:50:26.200 time and then there's intensive time, right, processed hands on 2:50:26.320 --> 2:50:29.720 and hands off time essentially, right, something intensive like oh, 2:50:29.840 --> 2:50:31.280 I need to make a beat, or I need to 2:50:31.360 --> 2:50:33.680 write this essay, or I need to do whatever with 2:50:33.840 --> 2:50:38.920 my hands, right, you can't delegate that. You can't. You know, 2:50:40.000 --> 2:50:42.680 you have to be there. So three hours is worth 2:50:43.200 --> 2:50:46.279 three hours of you know, your work is worth three hours. 2:50:47.160 --> 2:50:51.360 But there are other things called that set processes in 2:50:51.480 --> 2:50:56.760 motion that you can do called process time. Like I 2:50:56.879 --> 2:51:01.000 need to make the rice for dinner, right, I can't 2:51:01.080 --> 2:51:03.400 do that at the end of it because it takes 2:51:03.560 --> 2:51:05.440 a while to make the rice, right, So I have 2:51:05.600 --> 2:51:09.120 to do it first. It only takes five seconds, but 2:51:09.280 --> 2:51:13.160 that five seconds is worth the you know, thirty minutes 2:51:13.280 --> 2:51:16.000 that it takes to make that rice. So sometimes you 2:51:16.080 --> 2:51:18.760 can't do the worst first. Sometimes you have to start 2:51:18.879 --> 2:51:23.360 processes so you can get hours of work for just minutes, 2:51:23.680 --> 2:51:26.760 hours of worth for just minutes of the minutes. That's 2:51:26.800 --> 2:51:27.640 how chefs think. 2:51:27.840 --> 2:51:28.080 Damn. 2:51:28.200 --> 2:51:29.000 So that's helped me. 2:51:29.879 --> 2:51:34.320 I gotta redo my book again. I feel inadequately. 2:51:35.280 --> 2:51:37.800 Now you're you're working on a box Wiley or something. 2:51:37.840 --> 2:51:42.240 I heard. Oh no, no, no, no, I did mind. 2:51:42.280 --> 2:51:45.320 I mean mine was more or less about the creative process. Yeah, 2:51:45.360 --> 2:51:47.360 I bought both yos something the food about. I bought 2:51:47.400 --> 2:51:51.240 both y'alls on the same it's about the creative process. 2:51:51.320 --> 2:51:55.360 But I mean, yeah, you go to the ninth level 2:51:55.440 --> 2:52:01.720 of hell to get that these theories that I didn't 2:52:01.720 --> 2:52:04.360 even think about. Like, I'm just thinking that chefs are 2:52:04.480 --> 2:52:08.480 like musicians in their creative process, but you're taking it 2:52:08.560 --> 2:52:09.760 to a whole other level. 2:52:10.600 --> 2:52:13.240 It's still parallel. It's interesting because y'all too still went parallel. 2:52:13.280 --> 2:52:16.520 It's still the same. It's you know, the food, the music, 2:52:17.240 --> 2:52:19.840 the teaching, it rounds out. It's just interesting. 2:52:20.040 --> 2:52:24.000 That's what I learned. Well, we were about to wrap up, 2:52:24.000 --> 2:52:26.280 but I was about to say I learned that I 2:52:26.440 --> 2:52:33.600 really have a Yeah, who knew we look alike. We 2:52:33.800 --> 2:52:39.040 love Dylan and Prince and Prince bootlegs and yeah, yeah, 2:52:39.320 --> 2:52:43.560 we both loved Bill Johnson, Bill Johnson unpaid Bill, and 2:52:43.879 --> 2:52:50.200 we have projects that use night on ball Ball by 2:52:50.280 --> 2:53:01.320 Bob James. No, no, it's so obvious that like it's yeah, 2:53:01.920 --> 2:53:04.200 tell him. Is that what we do is that this 2:53:04.280 --> 2:53:10.960 story end I totally forgot about. 2:53:11.680 --> 2:53:16.440 Yeah, yes, oh yes, give it to him. 2:53:19.080 --> 2:53:22.800 May give it he said, He said that he kind 2:53:22.840 --> 2:53:23.480 of gave it away. 2:53:23.520 --> 2:53:26.880 I did. I played it, Yeah, you played it good? Wow? 2:53:28.120 --> 2:53:30.120 I think I got it on my phone. I learned 2:53:30.200 --> 2:53:34.240 that Steve is the jazz master of the Circle. I 2:53:34.360 --> 2:53:37.800 just said, cheated late like he said it like an 2:53:37.840 --> 2:53:38.280 hour ago. 2:53:38.640 --> 2:53:42.240 All right, Well what he did with that beat, it's unbelievable. 2:53:42.800 --> 2:53:46.640 Is the intro I play it I live. I think 2:53:46.680 --> 2:53:51.119 it was the intro is used because I never get 2:53:51.200 --> 2:53:55.280 past arrested development right, There's other parts of the song, no, but. 2:53:55.360 --> 2:53:57.520 I couldn't get past me. I said, how can anybody 2:53:57.600 --> 2:54:01.360 make anything not corny? This? Sorry? 2:54:01.440 --> 2:54:03.720 And I sent him. I was like, yo, I think 2:54:03.800 --> 2:54:07.480 this part is you know in prim us you were right, 2:54:07.600 --> 2:54:08.480 you were so right. 2:54:08.959 --> 2:54:12.320 And what makes it great is that prem also flips 2:54:12.360 --> 2:54:18.400 the NT drums. I think I think he uses the 2:54:19.520 --> 2:54:22.480 you know that right, the one that everybody likes. 2:54:23.440 --> 2:54:26.000 Because they originally I think the first draft of that 2:54:26.280 --> 2:54:30.320 song it was it was he he had used misdemeanor 2:54:30.720 --> 2:54:33.160 and at that time, I'm just like, well, you know, 2:54:33.320 --> 2:54:35.920 this is nineteen ninety so it's funky enough. Pretty much 2:54:36.160 --> 2:54:38.280 killed misdemeanor. So I was like, I don't think we 2:54:38.360 --> 2:54:41.120 could you know, use that, but uh but yeah, y'all 2:54:41.160 --> 2:54:42.840 take it into the next level. Even I would have 2:54:42.920 --> 2:54:45.119 let that slide. Yeah, I was like, nah, that's that's 2:54:45.200 --> 2:54:49.720 DC so but uh but nah. Man. So right now, 2:54:50.480 --> 2:54:54.440 how are your days spent? I mean it's it's, you know, 2:54:54.840 --> 2:55:00.600 teaching once the breaks is, once this season finishes, we 2:55:00.680 --> 2:55:03.840 get word on you know, season two Google, you know, 2:55:03.920 --> 2:55:07.840 one way or another. A. Yeah, if it's assuming it is, 2:55:08.280 --> 2:55:09.039 when do you go back? 2:55:09.560 --> 2:55:10.120 It is? It is? 2:55:10.280 --> 2:55:13.040 When do you go back into the writer's room next month? 2:55:13.959 --> 2:55:14.199 Ship? 2:55:14.560 --> 2:55:19.160 Are you serious? So get back to work, gran wake 2:55:19.240 --> 2:55:20.440 up call. Wow. 2:55:21.360 --> 2:55:23.400 I'm also working on a bit of a I told 2:55:23.440 --> 2:55:26.800 you a little project for Russell as well. Yeah, so 2:55:26.920 --> 2:55:29.000 you actually did hire me after all those years. 2:55:30.720 --> 2:55:32.560 I feel like, you say, a little project for Russell 2:55:32.560 --> 2:55:37.920 will be like Crush Groove two. All right, So, Dan, 2:55:38.320 --> 2:55:40.720 i'd like to thank you for doing our show. 2:55:40.920 --> 2:55:41.680 We appreciate it. 2:55:42.720 --> 2:55:45.920 Thank you, sir. It's very hard. 2:55:46.280 --> 2:55:48.200 I'm like, it's the normal length of the show. Y'all 2:55:48.240 --> 2:55:50.040 going to edit this down to like fifteen minutes. 2:55:51.040 --> 2:55:53.560 This is Quest Love Supreme. We go along. 2:55:54.360 --> 2:55:54.720 This is. 2:55:58.520 --> 2:56:03.480 I mean Wow Yeah the Breaks. Check us out Monday 2:56:03.560 --> 2:56:08.920 nights nine eight Central on v H one every Monday. Yeah, nope, 2:56:08.920 --> 2:56:11.360 come come, I let us well, thank you very much. 2:56:11.480 --> 2:56:15.680 On behalf of the Question Love Supreme team, this is 2:56:15.800 --> 2:56:20.760 Quest Love apparently not the Bob Jeams expert. I thought 2:56:20.800 --> 2:56:28.039 I was h whatever. We will see you next week 2:56:29.320 --> 2:56:32.320 Wednesday at one pm with an all new episode of 2:56:32.400 --> 2:56:53.800 Question Love Supreme. All right, y'all next week. Court Love 2:56:53.879 --> 2:56:57.720 Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode was 2:56:57.760 --> 2:57:05.040 produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 2:57:05.200 --> 2:57:08.920 visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 2:57:08.959 --> 2:57:09.879 to your favorite shows.