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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Stafford Betty. Before we jump into your novel, I want

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Speaker 2: to get a sense of where this is heading. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think few of us really want to think about

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Speaker 2: or confront our own mortality, At least I don't. It's

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Speaker 2: one of those things that many of us just kind

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Speaker 2: of put out of our heads and don't ponder a lot.

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Speaker 2: And I think the question that pops up for me

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Speaker 2: when I ponder the various possibilities, you know, what was

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Speaker 2: the point If that's it? We're born, we die, What

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Speaker 2: was the point of it? Does it matter whether we

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Speaker 2: try to live a good life or be kind to people,

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Speaker 2: animals make the world better. Does it matter if we

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Speaker 2: participated in the Holocaust or committed murders or slaughters or violence?

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Speaker 2: Does any of that count? What's your take on that?

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Speaker 2: Are there consequences on that side from what we do here?

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Speaker 3: There have to be Otherwise life becomes let's put it

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Speaker 3: this way, it becomes pessimistic if there is nothing. In

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Speaker 3: other words, we worked hard to develop ourselves, to develop

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Speaker 3: our souls, to grow love and compassion and knowledge and wisdom,

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Speaker 3: and if all of this systems crashing down after a

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Speaker 3: single life. It really is. That's that's that's a depressing thought.

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Speaker 3: That's a very depressing thought. And it seems to me

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Speaker 3: that people who recognize that depression are to look at

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Speaker 3: the kind of evidence that that that impresses you and

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Speaker 3: that impress me. I quite agree that our lives need

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Speaker 3: to go someplace besides just the grave, and that's the

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Speaker 3: end of it. Otherwise, what is the use they're trying

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Speaker 3: so hard? Yeah, I quite agree with that. That's well put.

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Speaker 3: I can't put it any better than you put it, George.

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Speaker 2: Just now, you know, we have some mutual acquaintances. Robert

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Speaker 2: Bigelow has created since the last time we talked. He

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Speaker 2: created something called BIX, the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies.

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Speaker 2: Our mutual friend, doctor Colin kellerher are working with him,

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Speaker 2: had this essay contest which was meant to find and

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Speaker 2: support pockets of academic research, credible people around the world

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Speaker 2: who had an interest in this, who just to bring

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Speaker 2: them out of the woodwork. Let it bring them out

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Speaker 2: in the open. And it worked. I mean, they had

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Speaker 2: an incredible, incredible response to that and got some terrific papers.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's kind of an indication that there really

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Speaker 2: is at least a push in some circles for trying

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Speaker 2: to understand the other side. That's one of the main

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Speaker 2: things when mister Bigelow and I have had conversations, is

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Speaker 2: trying to understand what the structure is up there, you know,

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Speaker 2: on the on the other side, up there, down there,

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Speaker 2: wherever it is, trying to figure out, because it gets

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Speaker 2: a little tricky to try to nail that down right.

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Speaker 3: It does it absolutely just I consider the reality of

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Speaker 3: the Next World proven. I think that is as proven

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Speaker 3: as the reality of UFOs. I think there's just too

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Speaker 3: much ebance to doubt either one of these. But when

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Speaker 3: it comes to, you know, trying to understand what it's

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Speaker 3: like over there, that's another thing that's a lot harder.

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Speaker 3: And that's where I have given most of my efforts

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Speaker 3: to try to put together what it's like to die

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Speaker 3: and then go on. And I've written three novels that

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Speaker 3: that dip into that, rather daringly dip into that kind

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Speaker 3: of concern. My three previous non fiction works also were

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Speaker 3: generated to evaluate the evidence. And it seems to me

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Speaker 3: that I have a fairly good sense of generally what

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Speaker 3: it's like on the other side, and my fiction works

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Speaker 3: depend on that research, and this most recent novel very

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Speaker 3: much depends on that research. It's it's not just research

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Speaker 3: that comes by way of my imagination, not at all.

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Speaker 3: The story are fanciful, of course, but the world in

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Speaker 3: which surviving persons find themselves owes as much to research

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Speaker 3: as to my imagination.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that would have been the question is why

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Speaker 2: write the novel? I mean, you've written other novels, Why

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Speaker 2: write those as novels? Because you can You can speculate.

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Speaker 2: It's more freedom to explore ideas that you think are true,

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Speaker 2: but you can't obviously prove in an academic sense exactly.

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Speaker 3: So basically from the way of extrapolating what the evidence

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Speaker 3: gives you, going a bit beyond it, but not violating it,

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Speaker 3: not contradicting it, just building on it. And that's what

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Speaker 3: I do in these novels. I do it because I

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Speaker 3: want to reach a different kind of audience, not just

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Speaker 3: scientists or philosophers or researchers, but people who dislike to

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Speaker 3: read exciting literature. And the world that I present and

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Speaker 3: these three novels are is certainly very exciting. It's an

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Speaker 3: exciting afterlife venue. And if it's it's something like what

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Speaker 3: I presented in these three novels is what I think

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Speaker 3: we're going to enter, whether we're Christian or Buddhist or

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Speaker 3: atheist or whatever, when we die. Where pilgrims on a

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Speaker 3: very long march. And this is what I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: do is describe the first portion of that march beyond death.

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Speaker 2: You've you've tackled these topics in previous novels. In your

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Speaker 2: first one, The Imprisoned Splendor, you tell what happened to

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Speaker 2: an atheist who died in a plane crash, which is

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Speaker 2: a right somewhat. I'm using a scenario of what happened.

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Speaker 3: He was shocked, first of all. He went into the

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Speaker 3: last instance of he was aware that the plane was crashing,

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Speaker 3: and he felt total horror at the thought of eminent extinction.

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Speaker 3: And he was astonished and embarrassed, but also very delighted

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Speaker 3: to discover that he had been wrong in all of

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Speaker 3: his life. The students that there was nothing to it,

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Speaker 3: and here he is having to admit that he was

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Speaker 3: just dead wrong, but happy to be wrong. So that's

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Speaker 3: the first of the novels, and it is the story

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Speaker 3: of how he motors through life, reckoning with the mistakes

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Speaker 3: that he's made and the dange that he's done to

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Speaker 3: his students and to the women in his life and

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Speaker 3: some instances, and it ends in his reincarnation. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he is clearly not ready to move on, so he's

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Speaker 3: going to come back and repeat the grade and perhaps

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Speaker 3: get him better this time around.

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Speaker 2: Well, what do you think the rule is? What is

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Speaker 2: the rule for reincarnation? That would be based on your

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Speaker 2: academic sort of research that why who has to come back?

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Speaker 2: And how often?

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Speaker 3: Right? You keep coming back as long as you missed

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Speaker 3: what the world gives you. For example, if you find

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Speaker 3: yourself in the next world being bored, not really enjoying

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Speaker 3: the kinds of activities and entertainments that are over there,

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Speaker 3: you begin to think about food and sex and sleep,

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Speaker 3: and these are the things that you begin to miss.

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Speaker 3: That sort of person that will inevitably come back to uh,

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Speaker 3: to another womb, into a human womb, probably on our planet,

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Speaker 3: but possibly on another planet, and become a physical creature again,

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Speaker 3: a spirit having a physical experience in a world like

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Speaker 3: the one we're living in right now. Presumably you and

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Speaker 3: I you.

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Speaker 2: Know failed before. Is that you know, when I've thought

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Speaker 2: about heaven and the description of what heaven is, and

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Speaker 2: that is full time bliss. You go over there and

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Speaker 2: it's hot and cold, running bliss all the time and

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Speaker 2: just nothing but being happy and blissful. Doesn't sound really

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Speaker 2: interesting to me.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting. It's a hum drum heaven. That's one of

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Speaker 3: my colleagues puts. It goes along with the horrendous hell

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Speaker 3: on the other side, and neither one is correct. The

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Speaker 3: the world in which we are going to move into

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Speaker 3: is a very active world.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: We see on gravestones are I p rest in peace?

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Speaker 3: And oftentimes in Christian HN's there are references to rest.

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Speaker 3: You know, you go there to rest is as if

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Speaker 3: heaven is a very old people who are just eager

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Speaker 3: to have a good sleep. But of course rest is wonderful,

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Speaker 3: but that's it's wonderful only because it leads to the

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Speaker 3: energy to enjoy active living once you wake up. And boy,

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Speaker 3: from everything I know, the world that we enter at

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Speaker 3: death is strong, extraordinarily active, and incredibly diverse, all kinds

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Speaker 3: of occupations and jobs to do and various entertainments to enjoy.

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Speaker 3: I mean, chapter after chapter in my books described one

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Speaker 3: kind of activity after another, and so that's the way

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Speaker 3: it is. That's what these three novels have in common.

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Speaker 3: It's an active environment where there are jobs to do,

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Speaker 3: where there are challenges to overcome. It's not a place

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Speaker 3: where go go just to be lazy and to sit

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Speaker 3: back and to enjoy a good fear or just a

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Speaker 3: good meditation. It's so much more than that. And those

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Speaker 3: who want to move on to higher world are going

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Speaker 3: to meet the challenges that they present in the actual world.

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Speaker 3: That's the world that we move into death and hopefully

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Speaker 3: you and I will move on beyond having to come

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Speaker 3: back and do again. I don't want to relearn my abcs.

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Speaker 3: I really don't want to do that. I'm teaching second

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Speaker 3: grade right now to slow readers volunteering, and I really

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Speaker 3: don't want to go to that process again. I want

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Speaker 3: to move on into a higher world and to give

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Speaker 3: the more opportunity to do more interesting things and with

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Speaker 3: considerably more power to do good than I able to

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Speaker 3: do here in this world.

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Speaker 2: So in your sense what you describe, you know, the

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Speaker 2: scenario you write in Guardians of the After World, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, you surprise me with al this is

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Speaker 2: great pros it's it's fun. It's a fun read. Uh,

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Speaker 2: And you're a really good writer. This is fun, thank you.

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Speaker 2: But you're kind of describing in this one and also

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Speaker 2: in the The Afterlife counselor the previous novel about levels

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Speaker 2: on the other side, that there is stuff to do.

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Speaker 2: You want to work to get up the up the chain,

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Speaker 2: to go up to the top.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: So do the entities on the other side interact with

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Speaker 2: this side?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they do, And that's uh, that's one of the reasons,

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Speaker 3: one of the one of the main things of this novel,

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Speaker 3: and it's somewhat different from the previous two novels. It

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Speaker 3: didn't emphasize the the the window, the open window between

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Speaker 3: our world and their world. Yeah. I think that we all,

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Speaker 3: you know, all of us, I mean everybody who's I

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Speaker 3: mean all. Just put it this way. Every culture we

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Speaker 3: see religion and we see prayers being offered to the

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Speaker 3: gods or to God. This is a universal phenomenon. And

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Speaker 3: is there nothing to this? Is there in any sense

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Speaker 3: that our prayers are heard and acted on? And my

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Speaker 3: sense is from everything I've studied that there is. And

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Speaker 3: I don't mean that the that the God who created

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Speaker 3: all the trillion galaxies that we know exist. Now, I'm

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Speaker 3: not saying that the deity, the great Deity, the great

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Speaker 3: God who created this magnificent universe, is the one who

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Speaker 3: is hearing our prayers and responding. But I am very

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Speaker 3: convinced that there are friends that we have, heavenly friends

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Speaker 3: who hear our prayers and are capable of at least

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Speaker 3: hearing that if they can do something to help. Then

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Speaker 3: they have very limitability to do that, but I think

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Speaker 3: in some cases they can really help. And I think

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Speaker 3: also that we can help them by remembering them and

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Speaker 3: by sending they're our love, because they perhaps miss us

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Speaker 3: and probably miss the world the earth in certain ways

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Speaker 3: and times, and so yeah, I think there is an

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Speaker 3: open window between their world and our world. And I

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Speaker 3: urge people to be fearless about praying. Go ahead and

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Speaker 3: do it. It may not work, it may not give

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Speaker 3: you what you want, but it's something that is so

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Speaker 3: universal and there's no reason to disbelieve, especially since spirits

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Speaker 3: come back and tell us through mediums that they welcome

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Speaker 3: our prayers, that they hear them, and that they are

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Speaker 3: able to new things that have real effects in our world.

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Speaker 3: So my answer to you is yes, we do have

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Speaker 3: an impact on their world and they have an impact

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Speaker 3: on ours. And that's one of the main themes of this.

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Speaker 2: New novel, the stories about near death experiences. People go

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Speaker 2: through a tunnel and they wake up in some nice place,

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Speaker 2: and it's they're greeted by loved ones who are a

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Speaker 2: long dead. Is that literal you think, or that really happens.

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Speaker 2: Are those the entities that we can communicate with who

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Speaker 2: hear our prayers and are affected by them.

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Speaker 3: I see no reason to disbelieve that the spirits speaking

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Speaker 3: to us through legitimate mediums, and I'm talking about dozens

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Speaker 3: and dozens telling the same story that they do greet

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Speaker 3: us when we come over. It's a literal greeting. And

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Speaker 3: the near death experience is a very incomplete description of

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Speaker 3: the afterworld, because of course, you know, they haven't really died,

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Speaker 3: they haven't spent any time over there. Some of them

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Speaker 3: get glimpses of the afterworld. But what most interested in

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Speaker 3: me are these long book length narratives describing the world

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Speaker 3: in which spirits live, written by spirits through mediums. They

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Speaker 3: in great details tell us about their world, and it's

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Speaker 3: been that material that has given me most of what

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Speaker 3: I write about they are my main sources, and you

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Speaker 3: can ask, well, how can you trust these people?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask that, because I mean

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Speaker 2: there's some mediums who haven't been very trustworthy over the decades.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely right, That's absolutely right. And you have to be

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Speaker 3: suspicious as you go into this literature than I am.

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Speaker 3: You know, where are the telltale signs of any kind

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Speaker 3: of wish fulfillment. I don't think that most meetings incidentally

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Speaker 3: are out to fleece the public, but I do think

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Speaker 3: that they are much too quick, sometimes much too quick,

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Speaker 3: to trust their own imaginations and to continue what they

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Speaker 3: imagine with what's actually coming through or may not be

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Speaker 3: coming through from the world of spirit. And it's also

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Speaker 3: possible that they're coloring the messages, that they're contentminating the

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Speaker 3: messages with their subconscious wishes. So I've had to be

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Speaker 3: and all of us who do work in this area

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Speaker 3: are very sensitive to these possibilities, and we're looking for

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Speaker 3: ways to get around that kind of concern, that worry.

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Speaker 3: And one of the ways you do it is by

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Speaker 3: looking at the ways that they have been able to

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Speaker 3: authenticate their authority by giving details about their lives, about

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Speaker 3: where a missing will is to be found in their

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Speaker 3: personal library. If you only look there, you'll find it.

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Speaker 3: And there have been many cases like that where spirits

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Speaker 3: have been able to make these claims and they have

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Speaker 3: been researched and the claims have been found to be true,

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Speaker 3: and so we can trust them. If they have given

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Speaker 3: us truth about this, then what they tell us about

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Speaker 3: the world they live is also trustworthy. That's been my

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Speaker 3: sensitive And also the very descriptions are so remarkable and

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Speaker 3: strike me as things stranger than fiction, so often that

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Speaker 3: I come away feeling, you know, this is the real deal,

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Speaker 3: especially when you find maybe thirty or forty who are

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Speaker 3: saying much the same thing, coming from different cultures, but

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Speaker 3: saying much the same thing, and I get a sense,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is real, This is real. You get

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Speaker 3: hints of it also from their death experience and from

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Speaker 3: other sources as well. So but you're right, and it's

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Speaker 3: a good question, and you should always be asking that question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've read the same kind of stories

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Speaker 2: you have about mediums who were not on the up

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Speaker 2: and up, and I you know, some of these accounts,

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Speaker 2: as you said, they're encyclopedic. The descriptions of what goes

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Speaker 2: on over there, go on and on entire books, and

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Speaker 2: many of these books are remarkably similar.

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Speaker 1: They are.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and and that's that has impressed me. But

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Speaker 3: there are other things that also impress me. For example,

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Speaker 3: Jardine Comings is probably the foremost medium of the twentieth

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Speaker 3: centuries in the irishwoman. And she's done extraordinary work, and

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Speaker 3: she has had many spirits come through her, and every

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Speaker 3: spirit working through her and using her hand writes in

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Speaker 3: the different handwriting. And if none of these handwritings are

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Speaker 3: her own handwriting, and it's hard to account for that

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Speaker 3: by assuming that there's some kind of trickery here. First

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Speaker 3: of all, there's no reason to assume that there's anything

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Speaker 3: about her character that would lead one to suspect trickery.

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