1 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Wow, what a fall from grace having your own show 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: on TV on TLC, and then now you land in 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: court with claims you are downloading and viewing some of 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: the worst child pornography that is known crime stories with 5 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Of course, I'm talking about Josh Douger. Does 6 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: anybody remember TLC's nineteen and counting, Well, maybe this will 7 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: jog your memory. Take a listen. This is the story 8 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: of my family. We're the Duggers. That's me. I'm Shaw. 9 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: There's Jimbop, my wonderful husband, and our children. Josh is 10 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: our oldest. He married Hannah and they had our first grandchildren, 11 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: Ckenzie and Michael and Marcus. Then there's Jannah, John, David, Jill, 12 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: she married Derek, Jesseph Ginger, Joseph, Josiah, Joyanna, Jedediah, Jeremiah's Jason, James, 13 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: Justin Jackson, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordan, and our youngest daughter, Josie. 14 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: That's a grand total of nineteen and I delivered every 15 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: one of them. Of course, with this many kids, we 16 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: do things a little different than the most films. It 17 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: is it always easy, but somehow we got to all 18 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: were Look, I'm not knocking big families. Power to them. 19 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: I always wanted four children, I got to I only 20 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: got to blessed with two. It's a better way to 21 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: put it. At nineteen that's a little over the top 22 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: for me. Don't care about that today. I care more 23 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: about the fact that Josh Dugger is charged with child pornography, 24 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: joining me an all star panel. Glenn Bard, retired Pennsylvania 25 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: State Trooper, first Class. Now this is the important part 26 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: computer crime investigations. That's why we need to talk to 27 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: Glenn Bard, US veteran Operation Desert Storm. It goes on 28 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: and on pat tech Digital. You can find him at 29 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: pactech dot com. Sarah G. West excuse me, Doctor Sarah G. West, 30 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist specializing in sexually deviant behavior and Associate Professor 31 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: of Psychiatry Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine. It's 32 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: a lot to take in because I've learned, doctor West, 33 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: that very often we think we know people by seeing 34 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: them all the time on TV and nineteen and counting 35 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: ran a really long time. I understand on TLC and 36 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the mom and dad. There are these 37 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: innocent child figures that you attached to and when you 38 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: watch it every single episode, you start identifying with them. Look, 39 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: I can't tell you what I went through when Monk. 40 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever saw that when off 41 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: the air, he was a detective with all sorts of 42 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: emotional and mental disorders. I actually missed Monk. So when 43 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: you attached to these people, it's very hard for you 44 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: to viewer or a juror to think they could do 45 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: anything wrong. Doctor West. Sure. So television shows, of course, 46 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: have the benefit of leaving things on the editing room floor. 47 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: They get to project an image of what they want 48 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: you to see rather than what is actually going on 49 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, which they may or may not know about. 50 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: You know, what is that feeling of familiarity that we 51 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: think we know that person when really we don't. Sure, 52 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't think we really know anyone, you know. I 53 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: noticed it, I guess the first time time during the O. J. 54 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: Simpson trial, because the Girrars really thought they knew Simpson. 55 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: Little didn't they know that my former co anchor Johnny 56 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: Cochrane and others had gone through Simpson's house and completely 57 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: redecorated regarding private photos, all sorts of art. So when 58 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: the Gurrars walked through. They saw a completely different aspect 59 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: of Simpson. I guess it wasn't an aspect of Simpson's. 60 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: It wasn't even real, but it fit with what they 61 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: thought they knew. Guys, we're talking about Josh Dugger, thirty 62 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: three year old father multiple children himself now on trial 63 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: for child pornography. I want to go first to Glenn 64 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: Bard regarding what we know about Duger's computer. But first 65 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friend Byron Pitts 66 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: at ABC Nightline. Josh Dugger was arrested in Arkansas on Thursday, 67 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: and on Friday the charges were revealed. The thirty three 68 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: year old former nineteen Kids in Counting Star is accused 69 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: of receiving and possessing child pornography. During a hearing over Zoom, 70 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: Dugger pled not guilty to the federal charges. According to 71 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: court documents. In May twenty nineteen, Dugger allegedly used the 72 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: Internet to download child's sexual abuse material. He allegedly possessed 73 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: the material, some of which involved the sexual abuse of 74 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 1: children under the age of twelve. If convicted, Dugger faces 75 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: up to twenty years in prison and finds up to 76 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: two hundred fifty thousand dollars on each count. The count's 77 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: here seemed to indicate that he went through quite a 78 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: lot to download the porn. It's my understanding, Glenbard, former 79 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania State trooper, first class computer crime investigations expert, that 80 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: he had all sorts of sawtware on his computer at 81 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: work at the used car lot so it would not 82 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: alert his wife. He was looking at not just inappropriate 83 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: sex material, but illegal sex material. I want to understand 84 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: what he had was a dull boot system, and what 85 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: that means is that it had a Windows opening system, 86 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: but he could then boot into a Linux partition. And 87 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: the reason why people do that not just this reason, 88 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: but one of the reasons is because when it boots 89 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: into a Linux partition, all the software, the monitoring software, 90 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: the networking software won't work on that Linux partition side. Okay, 91 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Glenn Bard. 92 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: I hate to interrupt you mid stream, but a lot 93 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: of people don't know what you're saying because you're way 94 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: way way deathcom for on this. You've got to talk 95 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: not computer language, but regular people talk. So when I 96 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: say I believe from the facts, the eight is trying 97 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: to prove that Josh Douger from nineteen in counting on 98 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: TLC had special software on his computer so his wife 99 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: Anna at home would not be alerted he was looking 100 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: at child porn. So let's start with something easy for 101 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: non techi's like myself to get their mind around. What 102 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: is an alert on your computer that will notify somebody else, 103 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: the third party, that you're doing something really naughty? What 104 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: is that? There is monitoring software that will alert people 105 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: when something like pornography of being viewed or certain websites 106 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: are being acced. Some people can use it to monitor 107 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: their children, and other people will use it for like 108 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: the circumstances, maybe a person who had a history. Did 109 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: you say some people use it to monitor their children, 110 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: like we have Bark b A RK and it's I 111 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: had never heard of it before, but it alerts you 112 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: when your child goes onto a website that's bad for them. 113 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: And let me tell you what happened the other day. 114 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: Listen to this doctor West. So I got an alert 115 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: that my son John David was into self harm. Well, 116 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: I nearly did a backflip. I went on immediately because 117 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: Bark had alerted me. Guess what it was? That week 118 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: and I was there when it happened. He was defending 119 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: a goal. He was goalie in a soccer game at school, 120 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: and he dived almost sideways and his arm went through 121 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: the net, and he was so proud that he had 122 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: an injury. It was a bruise. So he took a 123 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: picture of his bruise that he got and by the way, 124 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: he did defend it and they did not score. The 125 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: other team did not score, and he was so proud 126 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: that he was showing it off. He took a picture 127 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: of it with his cell phone and send it to 128 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: some of his friends. Look what I got ending the goal. 129 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: And Bart was so sensitive it picked up on that 130 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: bruise and him taking a picture of it. It alerted me. 131 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: Is you know so? I found that really interesting, doctor West, 132 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: that that is so sensitive to pick up things just 133 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: like that. Have you ever encountered that in your psychiatric practice. 134 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: I have never seen the monitor software it youth, but 135 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: certainly self harm is a huge issue with our adolescent 136 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: population now so great that you are on top of that, 137 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: I'm telling you. Sorry, okay, So let me ask you 138 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: back to you, Glenn Bard. When you say that it's 139 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: like parents who monitor their children what do you mean 140 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: by that? What I mean is the software itself. What 141 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,359 Speaker 1: it does is it can be set up just monitor activities, 142 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: a person's activities, whether it be spending too much time 143 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: on social media or accessing websites that contain pornography. And 144 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: it will do is it will notify a person. And 145 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: it can be anything from just sending an email out 146 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: or sending your Internet history to an email account, and 147 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: that lets the person be able to know what's been 148 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: going on on that computer system. So what I understand 149 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: is Josh Digger had high tech software installed on his 150 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: work computer to bypass the monitoring service that alerted wife 151 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: Anna when he looked at quote mature teine porn the court. 152 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: Here's Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking 153 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: about Josh Digger. Take a listen to our cut three. 154 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: This is Byron Pitts from ABC Nightline. For years, the 155 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: Dugger family has been portrayed on their TLC show Nineteen 156 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: Kids in Counting as a wholesome Christian family with old 157 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: fashioned value. All right, let's all hold hands. Okay, no 158 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: TV modest dress this one for the double date, no cursing, 159 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: and above all, no premarital sex. We decided that there 160 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: was going to be no kissing before marriage. But now 161 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: they are a family under fire after allegation surface their 162 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: oldest child, Josh Dugger, had inappropriate contact with several underage girls, 163 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,239 Speaker 1: beginning when he was fourteen years old. Okay, it's a dichotomy, 164 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you about this, Doctor West, 165 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: that they present such a wholesome image. But yet we're 166 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: finding out that, according to the state, Josh Dugger downloaded 167 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: child porn and that is something people often do in 168 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: the privacy of their own home that others may have 169 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: no idea about. Actually, what's happening in the courtroom can 170 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: be very confusing if you're not a high tech computer 171 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: juru like Glen barn But what's happening in that courtroom 172 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: right now, our jarars are getting an overload a computer. 173 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: Take education and child porn. Take a listen to our 174 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: friend Craig O'Neill at THHV eleven. All eyes are on 175 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: Fable this week as the trial of Josh Dugger gets underway, 176 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: the former reality TV stars charged with two counts of 177 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: downloading and possessing child pornography. Jury's election started this morning 178 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: and the judge has yet to decide on whether the 179 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: prosecution can call Bobby Holt, a longtime friend of Dugger's, 180 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: to testify. The prosecution claims in two thousand and three 181 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: Dugger told Holt on several occasions he molested as many 182 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: as four minors for several years. Dugger's lawyer say Holt 183 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: should not testify because the things he said were at 184 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: a time that she was acting as his spiritual adviser, 185 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: with the understanding it would be confidential. If convicted, he 186 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: faces up to twenty years in prison, along with finds 187 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: him up to two one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 188 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: on each count. Now that is going to be an 189 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: issue on appeal if there is a conviction that evidence 190 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: of prior molestations of his sisters came into evidence front 191 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: of the jury. But take a listen now to our 192 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: friends at People magazine. This is our cut twenty five. 193 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: It's describing how Josh Digger's computer at work, not home, 194 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: was quote riddled with illicit material. I'm talking about child 195 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: porn with children as young as seven, maybe younger. Take 196 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: a listener, friends at People. On the third day of 197 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: Josh Dugger's trial on Thursday, an investigator detailed the personal 198 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: forensic investigation of three of the former Reality Stars devices. 199 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: One investigator, who spoke the longest and will continue speaking 200 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: on the stand Friday, reveal details about evidence found on 201 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: Dugger's HP desktop computer from his office at a car lot. 202 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: The investigator testified that the machine was with illicit material. 203 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: With the aid of a series of screenshots, the investigator 204 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: walked through some of what he saw and learned and 205 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: exploring the HP machine, He testified that there was a 206 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: program to install a Linux operating system which was downloaded 207 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: on the device just days before the computer was found 208 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: to be sharing the illicit material in May of twenty nineteen. 209 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: He explained that the program made it possible that while 210 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: the public facing portion of the computer appeared to be 211 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: mostly business related, the hard drive had in fact been 212 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: split into another. Experts testimony described it as a separate 213 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: computer on a computer. You know, I understand it was 214 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: something called a Linux or Linux partition, which is a 215 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: sophisticated piece of software creating a separate workspace on your computer. 216 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: You install it as software on your computer, but then 217 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: you open it up as if it's an entirely different device. 218 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: What about that glenbar. Does that make any sense to you? 219 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: Some people do that. What happens they describe it very well. 220 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: They cut the hard drive in two. And what will 221 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: happen is you can be using the window side, which 222 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: we all use for work in many cases, but when 223 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: you want to do something that you don't want the 224 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: window side to see, or you just want to go 225 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: into a different operating system, that machine can be turned 226 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: off and turned back on and this time go into 227 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: that Linux operating system. It's its own operating system and 228 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: it gives you truly like a second computer. It's the 229 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: same keyboard, the same monitor, the same housing itself, but 230 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: it's a completely different operating system. And when you do that, 231 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: what it allows it to do is any type of 232 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: controls that would be in place on the window side 233 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: won't be in control on that Linux side. We're talking 234 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: about Josh dig Or, thirty three years old now reality 235 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: star in a former hit series on TLCA, Nineteen Kids 236 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: in Counting. It was a staple on TLC, a highly 237 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: rating network, to Jackie Howard joining us from Crime Online 238 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: dot Com. Prosecutors have said in open court and these 239 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: are their words, not mine, that dog downloaded images and 240 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: videos of young girls as young as seven years old 241 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: being quote abused, violated, and exploited, including files named such 242 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: names as Daisies, Destruction, Playboy Sweetie, and Peto Mom. I 243 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: understand that there was a Little Right Police Department special 244 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: task force called Torrential Downpour. It was an undercover online 245 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: investigation to unmask pedophiles and perverts. I understand that there 246 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: was footage of girls aged seven and nine being raped 247 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: by an adult male and sixty five images at least 248 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: of a young girl seven or eight years old being 249 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: sexually abused and then placed in a dog channel. Jackie Howard, 250 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: is it true that several of the jurars actually looked 251 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: away as snippets of this material was shown to them 252 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: on monitors? That is true, Nancy. Obviously it's a very 253 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: difficult situation and that is not easily trilled to look at. 254 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: But we also know that Josh Duger's family was affected. 255 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: In fact, his wife actually got up and walked out 256 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: of the courtroom in tears at that time. What does 257 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: it mean, Glenn Bard? The court heard that Kalmer, who 258 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: was with the Little Rock Police, tipped off federal investigators 259 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: and they traced the quote IP addressed to Josh Duggers 260 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: used car dealership, wholesale motor cars. What does that mean 261 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: to trace an IPS? What is that? So the IP 262 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: address is Internet protocol and what that is It's a 263 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: number that will identify a network on the Internet. Kind 264 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: of like your phone number will identify your series of 265 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: phones at your home. The same thing happens in the Internet. 266 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: It's just a series of numbers that will identify a 267 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: network access the Internet through one access point or a router. 268 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: So what they do is they can take that IP 269 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,959 Speaker 1: address and it will tell them the i ST Internet 270 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: service provider, And what they do then is sort of 271 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: legal process on an i ST, who will then in 272 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: turn and tell them where that network comes back to 273 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: physically the physical location of that IP address at that time. 274 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: You know what, if I'm really interesting Jackie Howard joining 275 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: some crime online when the fans came in and grab 276 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: his desktop at work wholesale Motors, he said, without having 277 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: any idea of why they took the computer. Quote has 278 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: someone downloaded child porn? Okay, you've heard me say this 279 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: till I'm sure you're blue in the face. Me. Thanks, 280 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: thou doth protest too much? It's like you buy a 281 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: cop at the mall and you say, hey, I wasn't 282 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: part of that smashing grab, and nobody asked that's what 283 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: he did, Jackie. Has someone downloaded child pornography? It is 284 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: what he did, Nancy. And given his history that he 285 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: has admitted in the best to having an issue in 286 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: having been to a treatment center during his marriage, he 287 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: was very open with his life. And they actually installed 288 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: on that computer a program called Covenant Eyes. They subscribed 289 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: to this in twenty thirteen, so we're looking at about 290 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: eight years ago. And this program would alert his wife 291 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: to any adult Internet usage and it would report that 292 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: back to Anna Duger. Now, the information that was set up, 293 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, on the Lynxious system, was in a 294 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: partition and had a password that was intail. The password 295 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: was the same password that he used to do his 296 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: banking information. So it's very unlikely that anybody hacked in 297 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: and decided to use the exact same password for what 298 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: he did his banking with. Okay, tell me that again, 299 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard. I understand that his password involved his birthday, 300 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: like the year. I mean, does anybody ever get tired 301 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: of using their birthday or the year they were born 302 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: like Superstar in nineteen ninety eight, when you were born 303 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight. I mean he used his birthday 304 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: and his password. His password was intail nineteen eighty eight. 305 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: And again that's the same password that he used for 306 00:20:48,960 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: his Internet banking crime stories with Nancy Grace to Sarah g. West, 307 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm just a JD. You're the MD in psychiatry. Help 308 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: me out. First, I want to talk to you about 309 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: the wife, Okay, and this is not her fault. She's 310 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: not the one downloading child porn according to prosecutors. I 311 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: mean sick child porn where you rate a seven year 312 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: old girl and then put her in a dog kennel. 313 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: I could say more, but I'm not. I'm not. So 314 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: Why does the wife, They've got seven children together. Why 315 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: does a wife stay with somebody that she knows? Sarah 316 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: addicted to not just pornography, but child pornography. Well, I 317 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: would suggest as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual or the 318 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: psychiatry Bible would tell us that looking at this kind 319 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: of material as an illness, and you know, if you 320 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: view it through that limb, then you would maybe be 321 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: more tempted to stick around and see somebody through their illness. 322 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm sorry seeing it as an illness, Okay, I understand that. 323 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: But have you ever known doctor West with me? Sarah G. West, 324 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. You can find her at Forensic Psychiatry MD 325 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: dot com Sarah West. And all the years that I 326 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: prosecuted child molestation and sex offenses, I never saw one 327 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: child molester get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't 328 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: think they can change it. If you disagree, tell me 329 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: why well. I do think there are some treatment options 330 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: available that may make it less likely that they would 331 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: re engage in that kind of behavior. You mean like 332 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: Pavslov's dogs. In other words, they still want to do 333 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: the naughty thing, but they know they're going to get 334 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: zapped if they do it. The impulse to do it 335 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: never goes away, but they can be trained not to 336 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: do it. Is that what you're saying? That is a 337 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: very psychological approach to that, And yes, I think that 338 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: is quite possible. How is that different from what you said? 339 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: I would say that it's probably a little more complex. 340 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: I think that you could probably decrease the impulses as well, 341 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: but that would be the more challenging piece. Controlling the 342 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: behavior is absolutely the thing that we need to be 343 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: mindful of, and there are a couple of techniques that 344 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: psychiatrists and psychologists both utilize to do that. The first 345 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: is therapy. The mainstay of therapy is victim empathy. I 346 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: think that that is a nice way to teach people 347 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: that what they're doing hurts other folks. And the second, 348 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: probably more intrusive form, is medication. Medication can decrease such 349 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: drive and decrease somebody's likelihood that they would be able 350 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: to physically act on those imputs. So basically you're saying, 351 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: let me just put it in regular people talk. Decrease 352 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: sex activity so the perp can't get an erection. That 353 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: is one of the methods. Yes, Another method would be 354 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: the utilization of a medication that's real commons. They're SSRIs 355 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. More commonly people might know prozac, 356 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: zolof those are actually medications that decreased sex drive, decrease 357 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: sexual desire. It's a side effect. We can use that 358 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: side effect to treat people who have unusual sexual impulses. 359 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: So you say unusual sex impulses, I call them felonies. 360 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: But doctor West, So you're one treatment to decrease the 361 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: urge for child sex or child porn is to dope 362 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: them up, But the minute they get off the drugs, 363 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: they're right back at it. My question is, is there 364 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: a way, to your knowledge, to cure them, to stop 365 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: them forever having the impulse to have sex with children 366 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: which is rape or look at child point, to make 367 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: that urge go away. I do not think there's a 368 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: way to entirely make that urge go away. So doctor West, 369 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: like it or not, I think you agree with me 370 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: because I've never seen a child molester, to my chagrin, ever, 371 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: be cured. When I was a knee prosecutor, I was 372 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: besieged by defense attorneys that wanted me to send their 373 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: client to treatment facilities instead of to jail. I did 374 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: at once. It was a mistake. It was a mistake. 375 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: I never did it again because I learned the hard way. 376 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: I learned the hard way. It doesn't work. I don't 377 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: think it works. I do think it depends on insight. 378 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: If people recognize they have a problem and are motivated 379 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: to solve it. But like any other medical condition diabetes, 380 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: high blood pressure, then they can do the things that 381 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: are necessary to keep it under control. You know, Jackie, 382 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: I want to go back to you, Jackie Howard. Dougger 383 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: says he was quote his words, not mine, vaguely familiar 384 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: with the password Intel nineteen eighty eight, prompting a brief 385 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: but furious exchange of Roberts, who accused him of hiding information. 386 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: So long story short, he admits that's his password. He 387 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: knows it's his password, and what was he used in 388 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: the password? For Jackie Howard, he was using it to 389 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: access his banking information and good lord, I'm a JD, 390 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: not a d D. That's not a pool teeth. I 391 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: can certainly try, Jackie Howard. He was also using it 392 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: to look at videos of seven to eight year old 393 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: girls being sexually abused, i e. Raped and put in 394 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: dog kennels. Take a listen to yet, Okay, what go ahead? 395 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: And if you did not have access to that password 396 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: for the teian on his computery, no one else could 397 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: access that. No one else can access that. Guys, I 398 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our cut thirty two. 399 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: This is em mcclaybrook at forty twenty nine News, before 400 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 1: the forensics expert took the stand. The jury heard from 401 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: three former Dugger family friends. The final witness testified that 402 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: Dugger allegedly touched the private parts of four juveniles in 403 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and three when he was fifteen. Judge Tim 404 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: Brooks told the jury that Dugger is not charged with 405 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: child molestation in this case. In this case, he's only 406 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: charged with possessing and receiving child pornography. But the judge 407 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: says he allowed the testimony to stand today to help 408 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: set up a motive for the current charges duggers facing. 409 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: And let me understand that Sarah West a motive for 410 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: the and similar transactions are allowed. That means, let's say 411 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: I charge Jackie Howard with pulling a still and pistol 412 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: whipping Kara here in the studio, just off the top 413 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: of my head, and she's being tried for that. Jackie, 414 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: you know I don't like you anymore after you pistol 415 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: whipped her. But I can, then, as the prosecutor, bring 416 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: in that on another occasion she pistol whipped somebody else, 417 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: that she threw a gun at somebody else, that she 418 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: is prone to gun violence. They are brought in to 419 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: show motive, course of conduct, frame of mind intent. They 420 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: tend to prove the case in chief, although the jury 421 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: is not considering those charges for sentencing or guilt or innocence. 422 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: That's what's happening here. So let me understand this, doctor West. 423 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: The prosecutor brought in previous examples of him molesting his 424 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,479 Speaker 1: sisters to show motive, and the sisters were young, they 425 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: were under age at the time, considered children the eyes 426 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: of the law to show motive for downloading child porn. 427 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you, doctor West? It does 428 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: make sense. But we would look at someone's past behavior 429 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: to get a better sense of what's going on currently. Absolutely, 430 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: something that I do when I work with folks who 431 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: have a history of sex defense has examine what has 432 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: happened in the path to get a better understanding of 433 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: what's going on right now. I don't understand, doctor West, 434 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: how when you've already been in trouble for sex related crimes, 435 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: that you're willing to risk your livelihood, your marriage, losing 436 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: your seven children because if he's convicted of child porn, 437 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: he's not going to have access or visitation, unfettered visitation 438 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: with his children. That's not going to happen. No, you're right, 439 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: Why would risk it all? So it is a difficult 440 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: pill to swallow. But again I'll go back to the 441 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: concept that this is an illness in the same way 442 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: that we wonder why folks continue to drink after they've 443 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: had ten DUIs, this is the same thing. Crime stories 444 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, you know to Glenn barn former Pennsylvania 445 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: State True for our first class computer crime investigations. You 446 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: can find them at pactech dot Forensics pactech dot com. Glenn, 447 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: have you seen this before where people that download child 448 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: porn go through extreme and elaborate measures to hide it? Absolutely, 449 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: a lot of times when I've seen personally from my 450 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: investigations that child important A lot of times will be 451 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: something that's very important to them, and like the same 452 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: way that you protect things very important to you, whether 453 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: it be you know, your children and so on, like that, 454 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: that's they do with this sort of stuff. I've seen 455 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: almost ubindical things where people will go to great length 456 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: about hiding it or even I remember one case in particular, 457 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: I had a person who had his family living in 458 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: utter filth in a house. The house is deplorable, it 459 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: was I mean, I felt terrible just walking through there. 460 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: But when you walked into that guy's computer room. He 461 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: actually kept covers and cloth on the computers to keep 462 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: them clean and safe. He had his children living in utter, 463 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: absolute filth, but those computer systems were protected and covered 464 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: and kept safe. And the reason why is because it 465 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: was on them was toil pornography. It was kind of 466 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: like almost the focal point of everything that he had 467 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: in his life. So this is not surprising to hear 468 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: the sort of thing taking too I think to say it, 469 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: you know another thing, don't yeah, jump in one of 470 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: the things that's also important to remember they in regards 471 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: to this one, that's partition that he had on his computer. 472 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: Not only that he had software that would also circumvent 473 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: any search and make sure that the monitoring program that 474 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: he had in his life had installed on the computer 475 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: would not work and would not notify her. So he 476 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: went to extreme measures. And my question to you, doctor 477 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: Sarah West, is I don't quite how to say this, 478 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: but sometimes it seems to me that the effort, the conniving, 479 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: the scams, this secrecy, all of the labyrinth they go 480 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: through to hide something adds to the thrill of it, 481 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, like, uh, let's see people that are cheating 482 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: on their spouse. They go through all this drama to 483 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: register at a hotel under a different name and paying 484 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: cash and where a hat and sung glasses when they 485 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: go on. It's crazy to me, but to them that's 486 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: part of the excitement of it. Potentially, Yeah, and there 487 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: is a whole community out there on the dark web 488 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: who exchanges this information. The You know, once you worked 489 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: with a couple of these offenders, you get a better 490 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: sense of how deep this goes. Guys, we are talking 491 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: about a reality TV star, Josh Dugger right now on 492 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: trial for downloading images of child porn. Straight back out 493 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: to Jackie Howard, Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Jackie, 494 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: you and I have taught in depth with For instance, 495 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: our friend will call her Alicia, Alicia Kay who was 496 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: raped and molested as a young child, and her molester 497 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: took hundreds and hundreds of photos and video images of 498 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: her and to this day they're still being traded on 499 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: the dark web. And how much, to this day, years 500 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: decades later, it still upsets these victims. These images are 501 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: being traded like baseball cards. Jackie Howard, say, Laurie Nancy 502 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: and the rings that these pictures get passed in on 503 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: the dark web and through message boards by pedophiles and 504 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: six abuse people who watch porn, and it's just a circle, 505 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: and they enjoy sharing. It's it's almost like a hobby 506 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: in a way. They enjoy sharing what they have found 507 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: and what they've seen with other people who are abusers. 508 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: If I were in court right now, I would stay, 509 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: look you dead in eyes and tell you what's on 510 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: those images. The videos I've already told you about the 511 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: little girls being raped, one little girl being molested and 512 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: thrown in a dog pin. There's so many more that 513 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: are even more graphic. Little children being sexually abused and 514 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: forced to pose in certain ways in front of the camera. 515 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: Those children will never be the same. I've worked with. 516 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: I can't even count how many molestation victims. Children They 517 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: go on to live, to have a job, maybe have 518 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: a family. They're never ever the same. And these purrs 519 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 1: are trading these sex images child porn like their baseball cards. 520 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut thirty one Zoe Henry 521 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: five News Day six here in Fayetteville for the Joshua 522 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: Dugger trial wrapped up, and the biggest thing from today 523 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: was there's no more evidence to be presented in this 524 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: case and the defense wrapped it rested its case earlier today. 525 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: That came after the prosecution cross examined the defenses computer 526 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: forensic analyst, and the defenses argument came up again, what 527 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: is there possibility for remote access for someone to get 528 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: into this dealership computer and download those child pornographic images? 529 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: Now the analyst says that there was software for remote access, 530 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: but there was no evidence that those remote access software 531 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: were used in the time period in question. Now to 532 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: end the prosecution today, brought back Department of Justice to 533 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: representative we wait as justice unfolds, and that Arkansas courtroom, 534 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crimes to our signing off. Goodbye friend,