WEBVTT - Gil Hanse 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.880 It's the Son of a Butch podcast. We come to 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.560 you every Wednesday. Happy New Year took a couple of 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.520 weeks off. Everyone had a happy and safe holiday season. Um. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.200 I got a little cold weather here in Florida for Christmas, 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:25.520 which was nice. So UM, but I hope everybody had fun. Um, 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.120 So the pot is back in this week. Gil hants 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:33.800 probably the hottest architect in in Gulf architecture. UM, certainly 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.800 from a major championship standpoint. I mean, Gil seems to 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.120 be that guy right now that all the governing bodies UM, 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.159 specifically the US Open. Uh, they seem to be choosing 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:46.839 Gil to come in and do a lot of the 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.360 redesigns we talked about that. Um. He did a redesign 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.519 of the of the wing Foot course that Bryson Dashambo 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.920 won the US Open. On redesign of the U S 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.720 Open course the country club that Matts Matt's Fitzpatrick went 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.880 on past year and Los Angeles country Club, Uh redid 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.160 that one and that's where the U S Open will 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.399 be held this year. UM. I love his work. UM. 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.080 I like him as a person. I think he's a 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.520 really really cool guy. I like the aesthetic and UM listen. 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.000 Golf architecture is is a hot topic, right UM, from 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:23.480 an aesthetic standpoint, from a UM distant standpoint, from a 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.600 design standpoint, and and Gil is definitely at the forefront 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:32.680 of golf course architecture in two. So sit back and 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:40.840 enjoy the interview with Gil. Hands Well, Gil, thanks UM 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.520 for taking the time to do this. UM. We've had 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.200 I've had golf instructors, I've had professional golfers, but to 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.560 UM get a golf course architect like yourself, that's a 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.280 that's a huge thing. And UM, I'm super excited to 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.559 talk to full disclosure. When I was younger, my dad 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:03.200 was building uh south Shore Harbor and clear Lake, Texas 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.160 for UM Bruce Devlin and Voneggie and I worked in 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:12.040 the summertime on helping him build the golf course. So 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.160 you know what it's like, it's that's the only way 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.040 to do it, get your hands. It is amazing, you 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.840 know when you look at what golf course has become. 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.960 I mean that experience has always kind of shaped my 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.560 view of it. You know, we were you know, putting 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.720 in the drains and the bunkers and then filling it 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.480 up with the gravel, and you know, they were still filling, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.760 you know, grading the lake parts, and then then they 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.040 were shaping the greens. When you when you see a 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.040 golf course, um, from start to finish, it is an 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.400 amazing process. And it's something that I think for someone 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.520 like you to get to do that on a regular basis, 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:48.320 it must just be an amazing experience. It is, and 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.959 and and first and foremost it's fun. I mean to 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.000 see you know, you see probably you know, with with 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.120 what you do, you see a progression. I mean maybe 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.760 you're you're that good that you see instant results, but 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.200 you know, you work with a student and you see 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.440 the progression over time and and from us it's like 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.080 a daily thing you can at the end of the day. 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.440 I've I've said this before. My favorite time on site 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.960 is when we shut the machines off and we get 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.000 out of them and we look at what we've accomplished 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.040 that day, and you can see what you've shaped. You 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.240 can see the creation all of these things. And I 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.960 think that's number one is rewarding goes quiet and you 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.400 were finally got the machine, and and number two, the 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.040 sons usually going down. And so it's just that special 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.800 special time on site. But having the ability to see 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.880 a daily result over and over again, and then you know, 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.560 shifting landscapes, different projects, et cetera is one of the 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.480 more rewarding parts of what we get to do. Why 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.760 golf instruction for you go, I mean, talk me through. 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.400 You know what made you get into this, why you 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.800 did it, and how you started. Yeah, it's um. I 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.680 came to golf, you know, later, like I was sixteen. 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.840 I think my grandfather was the only golfer in our family, 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.760 and he hung the moon as far as I was concerned, 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.480 just idolized him. I've never met a nicer man, and 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.640 just the way he handled himself, it was it was 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.160 a great role model. And when he invited me to 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.720 go play golf, it was like yes, And I think 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:12.760 I fell in love with the golf landscape. Then. I'm 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.480 not sure if it was because he was in that 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.800 golf landscape or whether it was just the beauty of it. 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.320 I've never seen anything like that or experienced it. And 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.000 then it got to be a point where I just 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.279 you know, over time went along and you went to 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.640 school study political science and history, which was where I 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.120 thought I was going to go with me. I had 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.080 the I had the exact same major. By the way, 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:39.960 did you really industry? So you know, yeah, you know exactly. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:41.680 It's like, okay, now what are you doing to have that? 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.839 So I wound up going to Cornell and studying city 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.880 and regional planning and not landscape architecture. And I met 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.360 a guy named Tom Griswold who subsequently went on to 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.599 work for Tom Fazzio for years and years. He was 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.480 studying to be a golf architect. And I went home. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.840 Tras and I were engaged at the time of Mary 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.320 thirty six years. I went home and said, listen, you 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.880 can do this. You can actually become a golf architect. 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.600 I doodled holes for forever, and it was gonna mean 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.159 another year of school because I didn't have a design 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.840 undergrad but she was incredibly supportive and switched gears right 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.640 then and there. So it was. It was not a 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.400 linear path by any stretch of the imagination. But come 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.559 to say, and I'm sure it helps you as well. 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.080 You know, the history of the game, understanding appreciating it 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.880 if through your eyes, the evolution of the golf swing 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.640 and equipment and technology through our eyes, the evolution of 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.880 golf courses and especially when we deal with a lot 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.960 of these great old clubs. That's an important part of it. 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.320 And you know as well, club politics are brutal, so 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.200 having an understanding of, you know, sort of the political science, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.680 how you deal with people, how you handle people. So 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.839 while it wasn't a direct benefit to me, it's it's had. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.039 It's that degree combination is paid off over the years. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:56.720 You said that you did a lot of drawings and 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:02.000 stuff like that. I mean, I think, you know, fifty three, um, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.920 you know, we're certainly not young people. And I think 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.360 now you can go you can go online and look 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.200 at all of the great golf courses. There's videos, there's 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.560 so much content, there's so much information out there. But 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.560 when I was growing up, my dad had all these 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.719 great old books and there were the you know, the 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.760 top hundred golf courses in the world. You know. It 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.440 was a book, probably in the seventies, and I remember 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.440 just looking through it and it had pictures of the 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.000 holes and then it had like a little aerial map 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.039 of what the layout was. And I said, go on, 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.960 take you know, magic markers and you know, draw all 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:40.159 these you know, fancy holes and try and make golf 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.440 courses and my dad was like, you have no idea, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.680 what the hell you're doing. That's never gonna work. But 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.120 I just loved the drawing in the the over. I 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.760 remember we lived in Morocco and my dad was the 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.960 first golf Royal Dar Salam Trent Jones um the fifty 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.320 four holes there, and they they had I mean we 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.880 moved there in the seventies and they had this like 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.080 it's like a I guess it was a model of 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.320 the golf course that you know that actually you know 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.840 those old ones from the seventies. It was actually real, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.320 was big, it was really big, and it was covered 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.000 in like a dome case and everything, and I just 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.840 always remember being fascinated by that. And then after the 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.200 Ryder Cup in Paris, I went back to the World 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.880 Arslan for the first time I back in Morocco since 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.880 the seventies, and it was still there was still I mean, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:28.520 you know, it was like the little you know, the 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.560 little tiny flags like kins and stuff, so well, I 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.360 was always fascinated with it. Um. I read a quote 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.280 that you said that your job is to identify which 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.680 of the properties natural elements you want to emphasize. So 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.080 when you go and you look at a site. Um 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.320 do you think in two gil we're getting for new 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.240 build golf courses, We're getting more for you guys, more 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.840 interesting sites then we have in the past. Because if 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.360 you look at where great golf courses historically are being 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.000 you know built, the old school ones, they're in urban areas, right. 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.720 You know, if you look at you know, wingfo l 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.840 A Country, claud Southern these are in urban, urban areas. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.520 And I think so many of the great, great new 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:17.720 build design golf courses are going to some amazing locations. Um, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:19.560 why do you think there is that push to do 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.840 that now? I think we went through a period of 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.040 time in the eighties and nineties and early two thousands 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.920 scored golf development and design with the with a few 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.240 exceptions obviously were predicated on golf as an amenity. Right, 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:35.920 it was there to sell lots, it was there to 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.400 feature housing development, or there were you know, golf wasn't 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.760 the primary focus. And then we went through a really 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.040 steep decline in golf construction and new golf courses and 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.040 starting in the early two thousand's and running for a 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.840 period of time where nobody was building golf course. The 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.240 only ones who were doing it were the visionaries, and 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.160 you had Dick Young's capel at Sandhills a little prior 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.559 to that. Then Mike Kaiser came along and Rich mac 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.360 its stream Song, and so you had people who were 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.480 willing to embrace the vision of quality. Golf will attract 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.240 people to go anywhere, right it's you're literally in the 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.280 middle of nowhere, and a lot of these things. And 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.120 we had the great fortune of Michael wal Ref doing 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.079 the same thing at a Hoopie match club. So you 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:21.119 you had people whose primary focus was golf first and foremost, 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.800 and with the concept of you know, field of dreams 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.079 building and they will come the thing that you pointed out, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.320 which was interesting, and it was nowhere near as remote. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.880 But back in the day, you know L. A. C. C. Wingfoot, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.719 Southern Hills, they were outside the city. I mean, it 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.439 was a lot of it took up people a long 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.880 time to get there, so they were considered remote as 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.360 it related to the modes of transportation at the time. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.839 My stay talks about that when he comes down to 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.880 Seminole because my grandfather was the head grow there for 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.800 forever and he grew up there. So where the when 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.000 you go into Seminole on the left hand side, the 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.000 maintenance barn, the house that's there in. My dad says, listen, 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.560 that's where we used to live. And he said, you know, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.199 when we came here in the you know, the forties 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.920 and the fifties, this was just all sand dunes. There 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:11.319 was nothing here. So you're it's actually the golf courses 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.200 like Wingfoot, they were outside the city, but now when 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.840 you go out there, they're so penned in. And one 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.240 of the things that I think that's interesting that you mentioned. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:20.880 I never thought of that. But a lot of the great, 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.679 you know, the old school golf courses that they would 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.360 want to have major championships at in two they're just 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.679 doesn't the land and the infrastructure for everything that would 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.000 take to have a major championship there. But you're right, 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.000 I mean Southern Hills. We were just there for the 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.920 p G. A that would have been way outside of 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.199 the city back in the day. But you don't you 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.040 don't think that that's that's a really interesting thought. You 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.400 mentioned Southern Hills. They just had the PGA there in two. 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.880 Um I was there. Oh gosh, it's gotta be Oh 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:52.600 one was the last time I was there for the 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:57.880 US Open that um retief goosen, UM one kill. That 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:03.000 golf course is unrecognizable from what it was twenty years ago. 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.439 I mean I got there and I was like, I 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.680 couldn't remember any of the holes because the golf course 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:14.320 looks so so much different. Um. The task when you're 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.360 I mean you're being tasked. I mean, if you look 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.560 at last year the major Championships, the country Club, you 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.560 guys did work on that, Southern Hills, you did work 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.440 on that. Um l A country club where the U 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:32.240 S open is in three you've done work there, Wingfoot. Um. 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.200 When you get the call to do something like this, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:40.560 is it not called that a golden era golf course 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:47.160 gives you guys the call? Is it excitement? Is it? Um? 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.600 Wonder man? Is that? What's the feeling when you get 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.679 the call and you know you're gonna get to get 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.959 an opportunity to go to a place like the country club? 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.320 You know that's you know eighteen hundreds, UM, wingfoot, all 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.720 the history there. How much of it is excitement? Trepidation, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.560 responsibility that you feel that you've been given this huge 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:12.200 task to basically take a master work of art and 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:16.080 now change it. Uh, it's all of the above. I 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.320 mean all of the emotions that you mentioned. It's I'm 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.040 still at heart of the biggest golf geek nerd when 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.520 it comes to golf courses. I mean when I drive 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.040 into the country, but I was still wave to the 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.840 cardboard cutout that's sitting in the you know, the guard shack, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.640 and it's just these little things that you you have, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.719 these pinch me moments of wow. You know, they're they're 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.800 trusting us with this, as you said, work of artist, masterpiece. 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.000 And I think you know, the way Jim Wagner and 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.720 I have always approached these things is with the ultimate 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.520 amount of respect for the original architect and trying to 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.600 do the best we can and back to our history 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:55.319 um degree, trying to really delve into what did they 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.480 do here? What did Perry Maxwell do at Southern Hills. 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:02.040 I don't care what Perry Maxwell it in Oklahoma City 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.600 or at Colonial, it doesn't really matter. I don't care 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.400 what Tilling has did at San Francisco Golf Club. What matters? 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.160 What did he do at Winged Foot and on and on? 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:15.000 And I think that that level of precision and trust me, 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:16.800 we were so lucky that we work at these great 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.800 places that that they have great archives, so we can 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.760 go back and look at aerial photographs of everage shot 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.600 sequence of Bobby Jones when he won the nine US 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.800 Open at Winged Foot. You know, those don't exist at 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.960 some other places, and so you do the homework, You 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.680 do the best that you possibly can. When we found 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.160 US Women's Amateur program at Oakland Hills that had photos 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.200 of every single green complex were taken from the fairway, 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.560 it was like the gold mine because now we could 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.680 literally stand in the same place and look at that 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.079 and try to recreate it. So it's a similar formula 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.640 whether it's Oakmon or whether it's Winged Foot, or whether 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.959 it's you know, the Creek Club or Sleepy Hollow or 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:58.480 some of these great old courses that are never going 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.880 to host major championships. Yet still we we focus as 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.319 much as we possibly can on getting all those details 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.280 right and figuring it out. And then the other part 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.600 of it is that we've got to trust that what 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.800 Perry Maxwell did at Southern Hills in NI is still 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:19.680 relevant to challenge somebody like Justin Thomas in two and 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.280 to to test the best players. And the answer is yes. 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:25.280 And I think that's one of the things that served 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.480 Jim and I the best is that we've granted. We 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.400 have to add back tease, we have to shift bunkers, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.840 we have to do things to accommodate the distance that 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.720 they play. But at the core of the golf course, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.600 the strategy and the interest and as you said earlier, 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.320 finding the best natural features. These guys did all of that, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.240 and so we have to check our ego at the 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.480 door and think, hey, we're not We're not going to 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.160 improve on tilling Nest. We're just going to restore what 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.480 he did and try and get the picture as close to, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.280 you know, the image that was there when he first 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.640 built the golf course. And if we can do those things, 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.080 we just have to trust that that's going to be 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.400 good enough. And you know this preparing players from major championships. 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.840 We can do everything we want a need to with 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:09.840 the course. The U s g A, the PGA can 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.440 do everything they need or want with the setup. But 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.440 it's all gonna come down to the weather that week. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.200 You know, if it rains, the golf course is going 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.320 to play one way. If it's bone dry, it's gonna 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.520 play another way. If the you know, the crazy thing 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.880 about Southern Hills is we had like all four seasons 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.200 in one week. So those guys they had every single 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.680 possible test, which was great, and I think that added 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.240 tremendously to the championship. So I think it's learning several 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.200 things that we've come to accept. And for a while 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.960 when we first started doing this, it was it was 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.160 hard to accept. Is that, hey, once once the week 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.640 of the championship starts, our hands are off the wheel. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.760 We've got nothing to do with it. And and two 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.320 is just to accept that tilling as Ross Mackenzie. Those 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.040 guys were so good at what they did that we'll 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.520 just have to trust that their their architecture is going 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:00.840 to be be good in this A zero as well. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.040 So let's take a quick break to thank our partner 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.720 for wellness. You guys have heard me talk about it. 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.600 I'm a big fan of their coffee, big fan of 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.040 the good stuff. I put it in my coffee on 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.960 a regular basis. The thing I like about it no sugars, 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.640 no artificial sweeteners. It's gotten me off dairy. Um, I've 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.960 quit putting sweeteners, sugars in just the good stuff. But 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:25.880 I also put the good stuff. Put a scoop of 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.000 that in my coffee, but I also put it in 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.760 smoothies and take it on the road with me. And 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.120 the other thing that I've been using are their energy bites. UM. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.600 I keep them with me on the golf course. UM. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.680 A lot of times when I'm out on tour, I 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:40.280 don't have a lot of time to sit and eat. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.880 So these energy bites, a little coffee hit, a little 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.320 bit of energy, UM, all the good stuff, all natural 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.960 and UM. If you haven't given those to try, check 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.640 those out. They've given me a special code to share 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.720 with some of a Butcher listeners. 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I read that 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.719 in in doing some of the work you did at 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.520 the country class at brook Law, and you looked at images, 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.240 as you said about Oakland Hills from four, you're able 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.440 to kind of look at the golf course and what 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.840 it was, Um, Gil, why do you think so if 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.040 you look at what you are being tasked to do 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.520 with a lot of these great old school, Golden era 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.880 golf courses, why do you think they have changed so 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.959 much and you're taking it back to what it was? 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.439 Why couldn't they stay the way they were? Because a 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.240 lot of times we see golf courses now that we 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.359 go back to that that you guys come into and 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.159 all the designers come in, and there's this push to 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.160 take it back to the original design, what the original 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.000 designer wanted. Why do you think golf courses evolved and 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.679 change to where you're trying to take them back? Is 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:35.560 it just evolution? Is it just what happens with trees 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:42.720 and earth and dirt that over eight years everything changes? Yeah, 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.960 I mean it's it's harden to contemplate that somebody would 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.399 ever put a limitum siting on a Frankloyd right house. 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.679 But that happened. You know, people look at technology and 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.480 what's new and what's and you also have to think 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.560 that back in the day Donald Ross tilling Hast, they 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.840 weren't gods. They were just guys. And there were competitors 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.639 of their as younger men who came along in the 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.720 generation after them, who didn't have this reverence for their work, 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.119 and they were more than happy to put their fingerprints 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.480 all over it and change it in the in the 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.359 basically under the guise of hey, we're modernizing because the 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.760 game has changed so much. We've gone from hickory chefts 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.399 to skille chefs, we've changed golf balls, et cetera. Not 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.760 unlike what happens, you know, it's just the history of 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.440 golf and the reaction to golf courses have doesn't change. 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.080 That's been was happening in the twenties, thirties, forties, and 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.520 so those guys were not reticent at all to move 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.760 a green below up a green, do this, do that, 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.800 And so I think you had this period of time 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.840 where and they also had heavy earth moving equipment come 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.359 into the construction process. You know, it wasn't mules and 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.800 scrapers moving a green, It was a bulldozer and excavator 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:54.560 just pushed it over there and go ahead and do it. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.080 So I think it was a combination of all those factors. 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.639 The other thing that really added dramatically too, it was 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.679 the Asian And when these guys built golf courses, you 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.919 didn't have wall to wall irrigation. You didn't have the 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.080 ability to go ahead. And and so what happens over 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.919 time is when the first irrigation systems went in, they 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.159 weren't five row, they weren't three row. There were one 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.480 row irrigation system. So that went down the center. And 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:19.160 now all of a sudden, you've got this big open 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.000 golf course with one row of irrigation down the center, 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.520 and you've got this green swath and all this brown 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.080 around it. Well, that doesn't look great. So what do 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.240 we do when we fill the space for treats. We 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.000 start putting trees in where the irrigation doesn't get And 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:33.760 now all of a sudden, the trees start to grow 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.960 in and we start to change and alter the look 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.400 of the landscape. And well, what do trees do? They grow? 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.480 So eventually the trees grow, they filled the space. The 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.879 golf course becomes narrower, just through that type of evolution. 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.080 So you have a combination of all these steps, and 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.280 that's where you get to and then you don't get 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.600 until maybe the late eighties when Frank Hannigan writes his 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:56.879 piece on a w telling has and it's called the 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.919 Forgotten Genius in the U. S G. A golf journal. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.240