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Speaker 1: It's the Son of a Butch podcast. We come to

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Speaker 1: you every Wednesday. Happy New Year took a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks off. Everyone had a happy and safe holiday season. Um.

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Speaker 1: I got a little cold weather here in Florida for Christmas,

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Speaker 1: which was nice. So UM, but I hope everybody had fun. Um,

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Speaker 1: So the pot is back in this week. Gil hants

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Speaker 1: probably the hottest architect in in Gulf architecture. UM, certainly

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Speaker 1: from a major championship standpoint. I mean, Gil seems to

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Speaker 1: be that guy right now that all the governing bodies UM,

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Speaker 1: specifically the US Open. Uh, they seem to be choosing

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Speaker 1: Gil to come in and do a lot of the

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Speaker 1: redesigns we talked about that. Um. He did a redesign

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Speaker 1: of the of the wing Foot course that Bryson Dashambo

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Speaker 1: won the US Open. On redesign of the U S

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Speaker 1: Open course the country club that Matts Matt's Fitzpatrick went

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Speaker 1: on past year and Los Angeles country Club, Uh redid

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Speaker 1: that one and that's where the U S Open will

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Speaker 1: be held this year. UM. I love his work. UM.

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Speaker 1: I like him as a person. I think he's a

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Speaker 1: really really cool guy. I like the aesthetic and UM listen.

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Speaker 1: Golf architecture is is a hot topic, right UM, from

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Speaker 1: an aesthetic standpoint, from a UM distant standpoint, from a

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Speaker 1: design standpoint, and and Gil is definitely at the forefront

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Speaker 1: of golf course architecture in two. So sit back and

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Speaker 1: enjoy the interview with Gil. Hands Well, Gil, thanks UM

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Speaker 1: for taking the time to do this. UM. We've had

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Speaker 1: I've had golf instructors, I've had professional golfers, but to

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Speaker 1: UM get a golf course architect like yourself, that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a huge thing. And UM, I'm super excited to

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Speaker 1: talk to full disclosure. When I was younger, my dad

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Speaker 1: was building uh south Shore Harbor and clear Lake, Texas

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Speaker 1: for UM Bruce Devlin and Voneggie and I worked in

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Speaker 1: the summertime on helping him build the golf course. So

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Speaker 1: you know what it's like, it's that's the only way

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Speaker 1: to do it, get your hands. It is amazing, you

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Speaker 1: know when you look at what golf course has become.

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Speaker 1: I mean that experience has always kind of shaped my

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Speaker 1: view of it. You know, we were you know, putting

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Speaker 1: in the drains and the bunkers and then filling it

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Speaker 1: up with the gravel, and you know, they were still filling,

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Speaker 1: you know, grading the lake parts, and then then they

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Speaker 1: were shaping the greens. When you when you see a

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Speaker 1: golf course, um, from start to finish, it is an

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Speaker 1: amazing process. And it's something that I think for someone

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Speaker 1: like you to get to do that on a regular basis,

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Speaker 1: it must just be an amazing experience. It is, and

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Speaker 1: and and first and foremost it's fun. I mean to

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Speaker 1: see you know, you see probably you know, with with

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Speaker 1: what you do, you see a progression. I mean maybe

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Speaker 1: you're you're that good that you see instant results, but

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Speaker 1: you know, you work with a student and you see

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Speaker 1: the progression over time and and from us it's like

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Speaker 1: a daily thing you can at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: I've I've said this before. My favorite time on site

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Speaker 1: is when we shut the machines off and we get

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Speaker 1: out of them and we look at what we've accomplished

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Speaker 1: that day, and you can see what you've shaped. You

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Speaker 1: can see the creation all of these things. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's number one is rewarding goes quiet and you

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Speaker 1: were finally got the machine, and and number two, the

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Speaker 1: sons usually going down. And so it's just that special

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Speaker 1: special time on site. But having the ability to see

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Speaker 1: a daily result over and over again, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: shifting landscapes, different projects, et cetera is one of the

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Speaker 1: more rewarding parts of what we get to do. Why

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Speaker 1: golf instruction for you go, I mean, talk me through.

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Speaker 1: You know what made you get into this, why you

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Speaker 1: did it, and how you started. Yeah, it's um. I

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Speaker 1: came to golf, you know, later, like I was sixteen.

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Speaker 1: I think my grandfather was the only golfer in our family,

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Speaker 1: and he hung the moon as far as I was concerned,

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Speaker 1: just idolized him. I've never met a nicer man, and

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Speaker 1: just the way he handled himself, it was it was

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Speaker 1: a great role model. And when he invited me to

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Speaker 1: go play golf, it was like yes, And I think

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Speaker 1: I fell in love with the golf landscape. Then. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if it was because he was in that

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Speaker 1: golf landscape or whether it was just the beauty of it.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like that or experienced it. And

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Speaker 1: then it got to be a point where I just

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Speaker 1: you know, over time went along and you went to

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Speaker 1: school study political science and history, which was where I

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Speaker 1: thought I was going to go with me. I had

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Speaker 1: the I had the exact same major. By the way,

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Speaker 1: did you really industry? So you know, yeah, you know exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's like, okay, now what are you doing to have that?

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Speaker 1: So I wound up going to Cornell and studying city

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Speaker 1: and regional planning and not landscape architecture. And I met

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Speaker 1: a guy named Tom Griswold who subsequently went on to

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Speaker 1: work for Tom Fazzio for years and years. He was

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Speaker 1: studying to be a golf architect. And I went home.

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Speaker 1: Tras and I were engaged at the time of Mary

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Speaker 1: thirty six years. I went home and said, listen, you

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Speaker 1: can do this. You can actually become a golf architect.

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Speaker 1: I doodled holes for forever, and it was gonna mean

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Speaker 1: another year of school because I didn't have a design

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Speaker 1: undergrad but she was incredibly supportive and switched gears right

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Speaker 1: then and there. So it was. It was not a

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Speaker 1: linear path by any stretch of the imagination. But come

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Speaker 1: to say, and I'm sure it helps you as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, the history of the game, understanding appreciating it

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Speaker 1: if through your eyes, the evolution of the golf swing

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Speaker 1: and equipment and technology through our eyes, the evolution of

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Speaker 1: golf courses and especially when we deal with a lot

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Speaker 1: of these great old clubs. That's an important part of it.

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Speaker 1: And you know as well, club politics are brutal, so

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Speaker 1: having an understanding of, you know, sort of the political science,

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Speaker 1: how you deal with people, how you handle people. So

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Speaker 1: while it wasn't a direct benefit to me, it's it's had.

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Speaker 1: It's that degree combination is paid off over the years.

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Speaker 1: You said that you did a lot of drawings and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. I mean, I think, you know, fifty three, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're certainly not young people. And I think

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Speaker 1: now you can go you can go online and look

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Speaker 1: at all of the great golf courses. There's videos, there's

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Speaker 1: so much content, there's so much information out there. But

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up, my dad had all these

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Speaker 1: great old books and there were the you know, the

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Speaker 1: top hundred golf courses in the world. You know. It

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Speaker 1: was a book, probably in the seventies, and I remember

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Speaker 1: just looking through it and it had pictures of the

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Speaker 1: holes and then it had like a little aerial map

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Speaker 1: of what the layout was. And I said, go on,

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Speaker 1: take you know, magic markers and you know, draw all

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Speaker 1: these you know, fancy holes and try and make golf

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Speaker 1: courses and my dad was like, you have no idea,

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Speaker 1: what the hell you're doing. That's never gonna work. But

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Speaker 1: I just loved the drawing in the the over. I

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Speaker 1: remember we lived in Morocco and my dad was the

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Speaker 1: first golf Royal Dar Salam Trent Jones um the fifty

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Speaker 1: four holes there, and they they had I mean we

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Speaker 1: moved there in the seventies and they had this like

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Speaker 1: it's like a I guess it was a model of

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Speaker 1: the golf course that you know that actually you know

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Speaker 1: those old ones from the seventies. It was actually real,

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Speaker 1: was big, it was really big, and it was covered

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Speaker 1: in like a dome case and everything, and I just

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Speaker 1: always remember being fascinated by that. And then after the

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Speaker 1: Ryder Cup in Paris, I went back to the World

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Speaker 1: Arslan for the first time I back in Morocco since

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Speaker 1: the seventies, and it was still there was still I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was like the little you know, the

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Speaker 1: little tiny flags like kins and stuff, so well, I

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Speaker 1: was always fascinated with it. Um. I read a quote

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Speaker 1: that you said that your job is to identify which

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Speaker 1: of the properties natural elements you want to emphasize. So

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Speaker 1: when you go and you look at a site. Um

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Speaker 1: do you think in two gil we're getting for new

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Speaker 1: build golf courses, We're getting more for you guys, more

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Speaker 1: interesting sites then we have in the past. Because if

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Speaker 1: you look at where great golf courses historically are being

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Speaker 1: you know built, the old school ones, they're in urban areas, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you look at you know, wingfo l

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Speaker 1: A Country, claud Southern these are in urban, urban areas.

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Speaker 1: And I think so many of the great, great new

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Speaker 1: build design golf courses are going to some amazing locations. Um,

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Speaker 1: why do you think there is that push to do

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Speaker 1: that now? I think we went through a period of

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Speaker 1: time in the eighties and nineties and early two thousands

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Speaker 1: scored golf development and design with the with a few

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Speaker 1: exceptions obviously were predicated on golf as an amenity. Right,

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Speaker 1: it was there to sell lots, it was there to

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Speaker 1: feature housing development, or there were you know, golf wasn't

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Speaker 1: the primary focus. And then we went through a really

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Speaker 1: steep decline in golf construction and new golf courses and

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Speaker 1: starting in the early two thousand's and running for a

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Speaker 1: period of time where nobody was building golf course. The

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Speaker 1: only ones who were doing it were the visionaries, and

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Speaker 1: you had Dick Young's capel at Sandhills a little prior

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Speaker 1: to that. Then Mike Kaiser came along and Rich mac

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Speaker 1: its stream Song, and so you had people who were

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Speaker 1: willing to embrace the vision of quality. Golf will attract

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Speaker 1: people to go anywhere, right it's you're literally in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, and a lot of these things. And

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Speaker 1: we had the great fortune of Michael wal Ref doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing at a Hoopie match club. So you

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Speaker 1: you had people whose primary focus was golf first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: and with the concept of you know, field of dreams

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Speaker 1: building and they will come the thing that you pointed out,

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Speaker 1: which was interesting, and it was nowhere near as remote.

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Speaker 1: But back in the day, you know L. A. C. C. Wingfoot,

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Speaker 1: Southern Hills, they were outside the city. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was a lot of it took up people a long

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Speaker 1: time to get there, so they were considered remote as

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Speaker 1: it related to the modes of transportation at the time.

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Speaker 1: My stay talks about that when he comes down to

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Speaker 1: Seminole because my grandfather was the head grow there for

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Speaker 1: forever and he grew up there. So where the when

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Speaker 1: you go into Seminole on the left hand side, the

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Speaker 1: maintenance barn, the house that's there in. My dad says, listen,

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Speaker 1: that's where we used to live. And he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: when we came here in the you know, the forties

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Speaker 1: and the fifties, this was just all sand dunes. There

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Speaker 1: was nothing here. So you're it's actually the golf courses

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Speaker 1: like Wingfoot, they were outside the city, but now when

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Speaker 1: you go out there, they're so penned in. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I think that's interesting that you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: I never thought of that. But a lot of the great,

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Speaker 1: you know, the old school golf courses that they would

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Speaker 1: want to have major championships at in two they're just

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Speaker 1: doesn't the land and the infrastructure for everything that would

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Speaker 1: take to have a major championship there. But you're right,

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Speaker 1: I mean Southern Hills. We were just there for the

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Speaker 1: p G. A that would have been way outside of

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Speaker 1: the city back in the day. But you don't you

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Speaker 1: don't think that that's that's a really interesting thought. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned Southern Hills. They just had the PGA there in two.

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Speaker 1: Um I was there. Oh gosh, it's gotta be Oh

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Speaker 1: one was the last time I was there for the

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Speaker 1: US Open that um retief goosen, UM one kill. That

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Speaker 1: golf course is unrecognizable from what it was twenty years ago.

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Speaker 1: I mean I got there and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't remember any of the holes because the golf course

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Speaker 1: looks so so much different. Um. The task when you're

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Speaker 1: I mean you're being tasked. I mean, if you look

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Speaker 1: at last year the major Championships, the country Club, you

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Speaker 1: guys did work on that, Southern Hills, you did work

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Speaker 1: on that. Um l A country club where the U

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Speaker 1: S open is in three you've done work there, Wingfoot. Um.

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Speaker 1: When you get the call to do something like this,

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Speaker 1: is it not called that a golden era golf course

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Speaker 1: gives you guys the call? Is it excitement? Is it? Um?

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Speaker 1: Wonder man? Is that? What's the feeling when you get

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Speaker 1: the call and you know you're gonna get to get

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to go to a place like the country club?

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Speaker 1: You know that's you know eighteen hundreds, UM, wingfoot, all

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Speaker 1: the history there. How much of it is excitement? Trepidation,

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Speaker 1: responsibility that you feel that you've been given this huge

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Speaker 1: task to basically take a master work of art and

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Speaker 1: now change it. Uh, it's all of the above. I

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Speaker 1: mean all of the emotions that you mentioned. It's I'm

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Speaker 1: still at heart of the biggest golf geek nerd when

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Speaker 1: it comes to golf courses. I mean when I drive

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Speaker 1: into the country, but I was still wave to the

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Speaker 1: cardboard cutout that's sitting in the you know, the guard shack,

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Speaker 1: and it's just these little things that you you have,

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Speaker 1: these pinch me moments of wow. You know, they're they're

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Speaker 1: trusting us with this, as you said, work of artist, masterpiece.

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Speaker 1: And I think you know, the way Jim Wagner and

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Speaker 1: I have always approached these things is with the ultimate

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Speaker 1: amount of respect for the original architect and trying to

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Speaker 1: do the best we can and back to our history

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Speaker 1: um degree, trying to really delve into what did they

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Speaker 1: do here? What did Perry Maxwell do at Southern Hills.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what Perry Maxwell it in Oklahoma City

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Speaker 1: or at Colonial, it doesn't really matter. I don't care

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Speaker 1: what Tilling has did at San Francisco Golf Club. What matters?

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Speaker 1: What did he do at Winged Foot and on and on?

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Speaker 1: And I think that that level of precision and trust me,

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Speaker 1: we were so lucky that we work at these great

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Speaker 1: places that that they have great archives, so we can

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Speaker 1: go back and look at aerial photographs of everage shot

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Speaker 1: sequence of Bobby Jones when he won the nine US

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Speaker 1: Open at Winged Foot. You know, those don't exist at

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Speaker 1: some other places, and so you do the homework, You

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Speaker 1: do the best that you possibly can. When we found

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Speaker 1: US Women's Amateur program at Oakland Hills that had photos

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Speaker 1: of every single green complex were taken from the fairway,

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Speaker 1: it was like the gold mine because now we could

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Speaker 1: literally stand in the same place and look at that

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Speaker 1: and try to recreate it. So it's a similar formula

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Speaker 1: whether it's Oakmon or whether it's Winged Foot, or whether

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Speaker 1: it's you know, the Creek Club or Sleepy Hollow or

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Speaker 1: some of these great old courses that are never going

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Speaker 1: to host major championships. Yet still we we focus as

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Speaker 1: much as we possibly can on getting all those details

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Speaker 1: right and figuring it out. And then the other part

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Speaker 1: of it is that we've got to trust that what

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Speaker 1: Perry Maxwell did at Southern Hills in NI is still

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Speaker 1: relevant to challenge somebody like Justin Thomas in two and

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Speaker 1: to to test the best players. And the answer is yes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things that served

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Speaker 1: Jim and I the best is that we've granted. We

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Speaker 1: have to add back tease, we have to shift bunkers,

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Speaker 1: we have to do things to accommodate the distance that

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Speaker 1: they play. But at the core of the golf course,

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Speaker 1: the strategy and the interest and as you said earlier,

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Speaker 1: finding the best natural features. These guys did all of that,

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Speaker 1: and so we have to check our ego at the

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Speaker 1: door and think, hey, we're not We're not going to

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Speaker 1: improve on tilling Nest. We're just going to restore what

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Speaker 1: he did and try and get the picture as close to,

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Speaker 1: you know, the image that was there when he first

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Speaker 1: built the golf course. And if we can do those things,

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Speaker 1: we just have to trust that that's going to be

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Speaker 1: good enough. And you know this preparing players from major championships.

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Speaker 1: We can do everything we want a need to with

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Speaker 1: the course. The U s g A, the PGA can

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Speaker 1: do everything they need or want with the setup. But

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Speaker 1: it's all gonna come down to the weather that week.

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Speaker 1: You know, if it rains, the golf course is going

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Speaker 1: to play one way. If it's bone dry, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: play another way. If the you know, the crazy thing

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Speaker 1: about Southern Hills is we had like all four seasons

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Speaker 1: in one week. So those guys they had every single

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Speaker 1: possible test, which was great, and I think that added

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Speaker 1: tremendously to the championship. So I think it's learning several

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Speaker 1: things that we've come to accept. And for a while

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Speaker 1: when we first started doing this, it was it was

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Speaker 1: hard to accept. Is that, hey, once once the week

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Speaker 1: of the championship starts, our hands are off the wheel.

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Speaker 1: We've got nothing to do with it. And and two

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Speaker 1: is just to accept that tilling as Ross Mackenzie. Those

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Speaker 1: guys were so good at what they did that we'll

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Speaker 1: just have to trust that their their architecture is going

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Speaker 1: to be be good in this A zero as well.

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Speaker 1: So let's take a quick break to thank our partner

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Speaker 1: for wellness. You guys have heard me talk about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of their coffee, big fan of

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Speaker 1: the good stuff. I put it in my coffee on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis. The thing I like about it no sugars,

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Speaker 1: no artificial sweeteners. It's gotten me off dairy. Um, I've

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Speaker 1: quit putting sweeteners, sugars in just the good stuff. But

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Speaker 1: I also put the good stuff. Put a scoop of

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Speaker 1: that in my coffee, but I also put it in

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Speaker 1: smoothies and take it on the road with me. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing that I've been using are their energy bites. UM.

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Speaker 1: I keep them with me on the golf course. UM.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times when I'm out on tour, I

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Speaker 1: don't have a lot of time to sit and eat.

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Speaker 1: So these energy bites, a little coffee hit, a little

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Speaker 1: bit of energy, UM, all the good stuff, all natural

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Speaker 1: now let's get back to the interview. I read that

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Speaker 1: in in doing some of the work you did at

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Speaker 1: the country class at brook Law, and you looked at images,

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Speaker 1: as you said about Oakland Hills from four, you're able

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Speaker 1: to kind of look at the golf course and what

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Speaker 1: it was, Um, Gil, why do you think so if

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Speaker 1: you look at what you are being tasked to do

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Speaker 1: with a lot of these great old school, Golden era

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Speaker 1: golf courses, why do you think they have changed so

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Speaker 1: much and you're taking it back to what it was?

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Speaker 1: Why couldn't they stay the way they were? Because a

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Speaker 1: lot of times we see golf courses now that we

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Speaker 1: go back to that that you guys come into and

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Speaker 1: all the designers come in, and there's this push to

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Speaker 1: take it back to the original design, what the original

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Speaker 1: designer wanted. Why do you think golf courses evolved and

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Speaker 1: change to where you're trying to take them back? Is

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Speaker 1: it just evolution? Is it just what happens with trees

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Speaker 1: and earth and dirt that over eight years everything changes? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's harden to contemplate that somebody would

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Speaker 1: ever put a limitum siting on a Frankloyd right house.

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Speaker 1: But that happened. You know, people look at technology and

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Speaker 1: what's new and what's and you also have to think

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Speaker 1: that back in the day Donald Ross tilling Hast, they

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Speaker 1: weren't gods. They were just guys. And there were competitors

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Speaker 1: of their as younger men who came along in the

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Speaker 1: generation after them, who didn't have this reverence for their work,

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Speaker 1: and they were more than happy to put their fingerprints

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Speaker 1: all over it and change it in the in the

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Speaker 1: basically under the guise of hey, we're modernizing because the

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Speaker 1: game has changed so much. We've gone from hickory chefts

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Speaker 1: to skille chefs, we've changed golf balls, et cetera. Not

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Speaker 1: unlike what happens, you know, it's just the history of

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Speaker 1: golf and the reaction to golf courses have doesn't change.

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Speaker 1: That's been was happening in the twenties, thirties, forties, and

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Speaker 1: so those guys were not reticent at all to move

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Speaker 1: a green below up a green, do this, do that,

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Speaker 1: And so I think you had this period of time

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Speaker 1: where and they also had heavy earth moving equipment come

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Speaker 1: into the construction process. You know, it wasn't mules and

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Speaker 1: scrapers moving a green, It was a bulldozer and excavator

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Speaker 1: just pushed it over there and go ahead and do it.

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Speaker 1: So I think it was a combination of all those factors.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that really added dramatically too, it was

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Speaker 1: the Asian And when these guys built golf courses, you

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Speaker 1: didn't have wall to wall irrigation. You didn't have the

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Speaker 1: ability to go ahead. And and so what happens over

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Speaker 1: time is when the first irrigation systems went in, they

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Speaker 1: weren't five row, they weren't three row. There were one

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Speaker 1: row irrigation system. So that went down the center. And

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Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, you've got this big open

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Speaker 1: golf course with one row of irrigation down the center,

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Speaker 1: and you've got this green swath and all this brown

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Speaker 1: around it. Well, that doesn't look great. So what do

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Speaker 1: we do when we fill the space for treats. We

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Speaker 1: start putting trees in where the irrigation doesn't get And

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Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, the trees start to grow

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Speaker 1: in and we start to change and alter the look

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Speaker 1: of the landscape. And well, what do trees do? They grow?

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Speaker 1: So eventually the trees grow, they filled the space. The

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Speaker 1: golf course becomes narrower, just through that type of evolution.

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Speaker 1: So you have a combination of all these steps, and

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Speaker 1: that's where you get to and then you don't get

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Speaker 1: until maybe the late eighties when Frank Hannigan writes his

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Speaker 1: piece on a w telling has and it's called the

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Speaker 1: Forgotten Genius in the U. S G. A golf journal.

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Speaker 1: And then the next thing you know, there's a Don

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Speaker 1: Ross Society, and there'd be is this appreciation for great

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Speaker 1: golf course architecture, and these Gulf architects become cult figures.

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Speaker 1: And then it becomes, as you mentioned earlier, part of

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Speaker 1: the the Internet, and you can go on and you

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Speaker 1: can google, and you can learn, and now there's a

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Speaker 1: Reiner Society in Mackenzie society. And so this evolution gets

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Speaker 1: us to where we are now, where you know, it's

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Speaker 1: on the back of every scorecard is Seth Reiner design

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Speaker 1: aw telling us and the clubs have appreciation. And thankfully,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a generation of golf course architects who

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Speaker 1: also recognized that, hey, what they did pretty special. Let's

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Speaker 1: go back. So I think that's kind of the timeline

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Speaker 1: of where we got to where we are, and we're

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Speaker 1: we're really happy that we've been entrusted to what we

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Speaker 1: think is do the right thing by putting that stuff back.

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Speaker 1: When we look at the great golf courses. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: I went through and I saw that you listed your

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Speaker 1: this was in but you listed your top ten golf

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Speaker 1: courses in the world. St. Andrew's National Golf Links, Chicago Golf,

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Speaker 1: Cycrus Point, l A C. C. Marion, Nearfield, Pine Valley,

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Speaker 1: Royal County Down, Royal Melbourne. All of those golf courses

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Speaker 1: originally were designed by the great. Um. They stood the

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Speaker 1: test of time. Yes, they've had some tweets to them.

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Speaker 1: But what is it still that you think made those

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Speaker 1: golf courses that you put on the list? What are

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Speaker 1: the similarities, but what is what do you think made

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Speaker 1: them so great by the designers? Because if you look

429
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 1: at what you all know now about grass, about agronomy,

430
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: about the ability to be able to move earth and

431
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: things like that, they they were so not like that.

432
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: And I think there is this big push right now

433
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: in golf course architecture. Wouldn't you agree that it's to

434
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: try and move as little earth as possible. And there

435
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: was a time in the eighties, you know, the Nicolas

436
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: stuff was all of these big pushed locks of hatchee

437
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: on here in Jupiter, these big giant mounds everywhere Pete

438
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: died did that at at Um the players came to

439
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: all of this earth move and it seems to me

440
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 1: there's this throwback move now to try and move as

441
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: little earth as possible. And if you look at the

442
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: golf courses you listed as some of your favorites, they

443
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: aren't they're they're not golf courses that have a lot

444
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: of earth moving to them. You've never seen me swinging

445
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: a golf club. So if you look, there are a

446
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: lot of those are wide golf courses. I'm a big

447
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: fan of options and width, and I think that a

448
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: lot of what those courses do is they allowed the

449
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: player to determine the way they're going to play the

450
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: golf courses versus the architect determining it for you. And

451
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 1: so I think that's that's the best set of golf,

452
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: is that the questions that are asked are compelling for

453
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: the best players in the world, but they're also compelling

454
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: for a thirty handicap, and they're also compelling for a

455
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: ten handicap, And and so that there are options and

456
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: ways to play. And I think that's a similar you know,

457
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: with the exception of Pine Valley. Pine Valley asked questions

458
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: and that you have to step up and hit a

459
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: golf shot. Bill Kittleman is the is the great old

460
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 1: pro at marian who has worked with us on several projects.

461
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: Turned ninety the other day, So shout out to Bill.

462
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: Not that he listens to podcasts, but anyway, he was

463
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: an amazing um mentor to Jim and I. But he

464
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, there would be occasional times where we put

465
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: a bunker or something in or you to force carry

466
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: and he would just look at us and say, you know, son,

467
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: sometimes you just got to hit a golf shot, and

468
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: that's just part of the test. But I think in

469
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: in by and large, those golf courses occupy great natural sites.

470
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: The architects maximize the potential of those sites. They gave

471
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: you options, They asked really interesting questions within the landscape.

472
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: So I think that's what we look for. I think

473
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: is is as they mentioned earlier, the move to these

474
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: more remote sites were and and the questions that were

475
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: asked to Mackenzie and Crump is you know, just build

476
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: us the best golf course. Not build us the best

477
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: golf course and hide the car pest because we want

478
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: have waldwell carcass, not build us the best golf course,

479
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, we need a waterfall that

480
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: we need to lake. Oh by the way, we need

481
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: to photograph this. It was solely purely about golf. And

482
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: I think that's ultimately what what led them to be

483
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: so great. And that's what the you know, the Mike

484
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: Kaisers of the world, they're looking at there just saying, hey,

485
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: find the best piece of property and build us something

486
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: that's solely related and predicated on quality of golf. And

487
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: I think if you look at those ten and you

488
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: can quibble whether some belong, some don't, et cetera. And

489
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: that's one of the great things about what we do,

490
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 1: right we talked about golf, is why do you like this?

491
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: Why do you like that? I understand fully the Shinnecock

492
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: Hills is probably a better quote unquote test of golf

493
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: than national. But I'd rather play a national because it's

494
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: just more fun, it's more interesting, there's more opportunities to play.

495
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: But you, as as accomplished player, you might be like

496
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: kid so much better than so there's and that's the

497
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: great thing about that. We get to we get to

498
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: argue the merits based on what we see, and there's

499
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: and there's no right or wrong. One of the quotes

500
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: that I and and looking to talk to you today,

501
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: I love that you said that the soul of what

502
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: you were doing is trying is about the playing of

503
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: the game, right, not about all of the other things.

504
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: You know, Gil, I worked at Austin Golf Club, not

505
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: Austin Country, but I worked at Austin Golf Club for

506
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: Ben ben prenchase home course um that he did with

507
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: Bill and I worked there for a year. And there

508
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: was a new course that opened up in Austin. This

509
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: is like two thousand five, um, another new course. And

510
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: somebody said, hey, Ben, have you played that? Yeah, I

511
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: played at the other I thought it was great. And

512
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: some guys said, yeah, well it was really really nice.

513
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: But I mean a tour pro would just destroy that

514
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: golf course. And and Ben crunch I said, you know there,

515
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: there will never be a professional golf event at the

516
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: golf course, right. He said, if you look at all

517
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: of the golf courses on the planet Earth, it's less

518
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: than one percent that will ever have a professional golf

519
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: tournament on there. But everyone that plays golf looks at it,

520
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: I think through the lens of the professional right. So

521
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: how do you balance all of this out, because obviously

522
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: you're trying to balance out building golf courses, doing a restoration.

523
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: What say, at a place, you know, like Los Angeles

524
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: Country Club, the members are going to play it, so

525
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: it has to be playable for them, but it also

526
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: has to be a test to professional golfers and an

527
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: own thing. And you probably are. You're in the same

528
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: world that I am. I don't think our listeners realize

529
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: the difference between professional golf, tournament golf, major golf, the

530
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: caliber of shots, the type of golf you have to

531
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: play to play those golfers, and then what the rest

532
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: of us do who aren't on television right there is

533
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: a massive difference. How do you balance it out between saying, Okay,

534
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: what am I going to try and test here for

535
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 1: the players? You know, for a major championship, you know

536
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: that if you're going into l A c C. The

537
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: U S opens there in So whatever design work you're

538
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: going to do to change a golf course to take

539
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: it back to old pictures, and ultimately the showcase is

540
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: going to be this June, this coming June, when the

541
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: best players in the world or there. How are you

542
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: trying to balance that test, Well, it comes down to

543
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: know two things. One thing that you know what Ben

544
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: was talking about, which, by the way, Bill and Ben

545
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: are they've been so so good to me and Jim

546
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: and they're just the best just the best people but

547
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: also the best designers and so h they're they're incredible.

548
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: And from that standpoint, you know, but we all work

549
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: for clients, right, Everybody seems to think, oh, well, Jill

550
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: Hans thought that was a great idea to do a

551
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: hoopie match club. That was Michael all Rs idea, and

552
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: he came to us and he said, Hey, I've got

553
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: this crazy idea. I want to build a golf course

554
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: where you don't ever write your score down you can play.

555
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: And you were like, yeah, that's incredible. And so we

556
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: have to work for what the clients looking for. If

557
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: the client's goal is to host a major championship, like

558
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: you know, we just built the new course of e

559
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: G Frisco, which is going to host a senior interest

560
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: of that. Yesterday that that first kind of leaked out

561
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: online again it looks very very minimal kind of that

562
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: that bunkering that looks like kind of found object bunkering

563
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: and things like that. Yeah, and and that's you know

564
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: interesting we be We found nine holes and we had

565
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 1: to construct nine holes, and so I'm hopeful that at

566
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 1: the end of the day, Jim and I think, if

567
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: you can't figure out which ones we built and which

568
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: ones we found, then we've actually done a really good

569
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: job out there. Um So, but you're working for the client,

570
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: and that ultimately is what you have to build your

571
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: golf course for. Like if he's saying, hey, I want

572
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: to I want to challenge all my buddies are single digits,

573
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: and that's who's gonna play out here, and that's the reputation.

574
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: Well great if it's you know what, No, my mom

575
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: and dad are gonna play golf out here with me,

576
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: and I want them to be able to enjoy the

577
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: test of golf. So there's a lot of that baked

578
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: into new course design. From a restoration standpoint, it gets

579
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: back to that whole just trusting the original architect and

580
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: then ultimately, as they say, when our hands are off

581
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: the wheel, when Carrie Haig and John Bodenhammer step on

582
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: site for setting up major championships, and we have built

583
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: such a great relationship with both those guys and their

584
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: teams that we trust that they get it and they

585
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: have ultimately goals for what they're you know, everybody says,

586
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: well they must have a target score. No they don't,

587
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: because it's all down to the weather that week and

588
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: the way that the setup ultimately works. But George Thomas

589
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: at l ECC was such a genius that he figured

590
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: out ways that's through the setup of the golf course.

591
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: And that's something that we focus a lot on. We

592
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: focused in Frisco, we focused in Rio for the Olympics,

593
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: was that on any given day, if the architecture is

594
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: good enough, they can set that golf course up as

595
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: hard as they want or as easy as they want.

596
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: So if you give options to tuck pins or berry pins,

597
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: where it actually you know the interesting conversation And I

598
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: would ask you this question because the guys that you teach,

599
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: you know, our angles relevant anymore? They hit it so

600
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: far so well. Did really care if they've got a

601
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: bad angle coming into a green? Do they really care

602
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: if the pins tucked up behind a punk? Or do

603
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: they ever think? You know, do I want to get

604
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: to this side? And I think a lot of what

605
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: we see in major championship preparation is that that becomes

606
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: more relevant because the penalties are that much more severe

607
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: if you don't hit the shot the roughest, thicker is harder.

608
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's not like a regular tour set up

609
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: every week in, week out. And so I think ultimately,

610
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: if the original golf architect has provided enough set up

611
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: opportunities that um, you know, the Wednesday Seniors after lunch

612
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: event at L A c C. Those guys can go

613
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: out and have fun, and in June they can set

614
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: it up so that it's difficult enough for the best

615
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: players in the world, and you're spot on the difference

616
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: in quality between what they what they do. I mean,

617
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: people always say, well, how are you gonna Absolutely we're not.

618
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: You know, the golf course is going to be, the

619
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: weather is going to be what challenges them, whether it's firm,

620
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: and I think that's sorry to digress and ramble, but

621
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: you know, that's ultimately the best defense if we have

622
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: good architecture we have if the wind blows and if

623
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: the golf course is firm, because you work with these

624
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: guys and in my mind, I'm thinking you're working with

625
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: them to have a predictable outcome every time they swing

626
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: the golf club. When they swing a seven iron. The

627
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: outcomes predictable when they swing the driver, it's predictable, predictable.

628
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: But when the ground is firm and bouncy, they don't.

629
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: That's not a predictable predictable. Is it going to bounce

630
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: twice and stop? Is not going to stop? Is it

631
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: going to check? You know, those types of things ultimately

632
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: add so much to the test, and those are completely

633
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: out of our hands. So let's take a short break

634
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: and we will be back right after this. Alright, let's

635
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: get back to the interview. I think one of the

636
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: things in major championships, Gill, when we're walking around with

637
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: players over the twenty years that I've been doing this,

638
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: I don't think the people that are listening would would

639
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: they'd be blown away what we're talking about. I'd say

640
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: the majority of the time when we're talking about non

641
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: technical stuff on the golf course, from a strategy standpoint,

642
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: at majors, it's all about where you want to miss it, right,

643
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: And so there's this this spine line between talking about

644
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: where you want to miss it and where you're trying

645
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: to hit it. And I remember I worked years ago

646
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: Trevor Immleman was a good friend of mine he has

647
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: been in the podcast. Um, Trevor was too smart for golf, right.

648
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: His brain was just smart. He overthought everything and he

649
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: would just obsess about outcome outcome outcome outcome outcome right.

650
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: And we played a practice round with Tiger when he

651
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: wanted Royal Liverpool where he just shot zero. We're super

652
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: baked out and had that great round. Were never hit

653
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: driver when we played a practice round and tigering. This

654
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: is like you know, in the day Tiger Tiger Mania

655
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: and watching I mean Trevor watched the way Tiger and

656
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: Steve Williams and around that golf course and everything was

657
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: about Okay, that's where we're going to hit the golf ball.

658
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: That's where we're going to hit the golf ball. And

659
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: if we miss it, we miss it there. And that

660
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: was it. It was point A to point B and

661
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: if we are going to miss it, the miss is

662
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: better from here than it is from there. We're either

663
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: going to lay short of these bunkers or we're going

664
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: to take it over it. And I think it was

665
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: interesting to watch a young kid early in his career

666
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: like that. For drug Or, he was like, Tiger just

667
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: makes golf so easy. And I was like, yeah, because

668
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: he focuses on where he's trying to hit the golf ball,

669
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: and then he thinks about where he's going to miss

670
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: the golf ball, if he's gonna miss it, And if

671
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: you think about it, that's a pretty the pretty good philosophy.

672
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: But we are doing a lot of from a technique standpoint,

673
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, we are doing a lot of the players

674
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: looking out, Okay, can we get it over those trees?

675
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: What's the risk versus the reward? Um? Obviously, Still, the

676
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: players I'm working with don't have distance issues. Right, there's

677
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: this massive debate in you know, in my earned golf today. Um, distance,

678
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: how do you deal with that as an architect? So

679
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: I'll give you a great example of marrying in thirteen

680
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: the the first part three is that part three in

681
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: the composite three and um, it's a little into the breeze.

682
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: And DJ was playing with Jeff Ogilvie and Lucas Clover.

683
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: DJ hit three wood and came up short, and Lucas

684
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: and Jeff both hit driver and came up short. And

685
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: as we're walking up to the green, Jeff Ogilvy looked

686
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: at us and says, now, what a great hole? Huh?

687
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: We all just missed the green with the driver and

688
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: the three wood. And I think there is this philosophy

689
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: for the average golfer that we've got to make golf

690
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: courses longer and length But the players don't want that.

691
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: The best players in the world who are the longest,

692
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: don't want that. They don't want the golf clubs or

693
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: the golf courses to be longer. They want to be

694
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: I think they want to be questions and forced to

695
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: hit good shots. And as you know, the Rory mclroys

696
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: of the world, the John ROMs, the Justin Thomas Is,

697
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: the Dustin Johnson Campston, they want the golf course as

698
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: hard as possible. They want hard golf courses. I mean

699
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: we did, we've we've we've gone so much still in

700
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: looking at players, We've looked at stats and going, okay,

701
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: your type of golf is predicated on your good ball strike.

702
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: You're this again, using Trevor Immlement as an example. Trevor

703
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: hated go into places like Palm Springs, hate going to

704
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: places like that. I remember once I was working with him,

705
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: this is like two three years ago. He was in

706
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: Palm Springs and he was shooting. You know, he missed

707
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: the cup and he's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot

708
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: a hundred when I go to Tory Pines next week.

709
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you'll play great at Tory Pines next week.

710
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: It was a hard golf course and he finished top

711
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: ten and he was like, I have no idea how

712
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: I finished top ten because I go to go to

713
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: Palm Springs. I'm like, the was golf course. It's like

714
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: you said, they're wide open, they're easy, there's no kind

715
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: of premium. The best players in the world want their

716
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: games to shine and be identified. So how do you,

717
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: from a distant standpoint deal with that today because everybody's

718
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: saying the golf ball and the players are too far.

719
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: A lot of it's just the natural constraints of the property,

720
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: Like if you're dealing with an old golf course. We

721
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: Jim and I believe strongly that we hate to create

722
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: what we call it disconnect where you know what we

723
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: what most of us love about great old golf courses.

724
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: You walk off the green, you're pretty much right on

725
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: the next team if you if you've got to create something,

726
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: and you know, Wingfoot was one example, we're number twelve.

727
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: You know you could you walk back a hundred yards

728
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: to to a t that's appropriate for them? I hate

729
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: that we didn't create it. It was there, but it

730
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: was one of those things where we don't want to

731
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: break up the flow of the round of golf. Those

732
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: guys are so used to just walking back that it's

733
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: not like they're noticing the fact that they're walking back.

734
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: You know, you and I might notice what this is

735
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: getting tiresome. Not that I'd ever played back there, but

736
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, we this is getting tire and so we

737
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: try to as best we possibly can just say, hey,

738
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: this is the distance that ultimately correlates the best with

739
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: what Thomas was trying to do, with what Ross was

740
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: trying to do, and that may wind up being seventy

741
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: dred yards and that's fine, you know, and that's long,

742
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: but it's not long for them. We don't feel there's

743
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can do to physically challenge those guys

744
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: with length. They can hit it so far it doesn't

745
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: really matter. If it's just gonna be boring to watch

746
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. We'd rather have a more compelling

747
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,959
Speaker 1: and interesting test. And then the other thing you start

748
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: to think about is, okay, do the math if we're

749
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: trying to build and the the best golf courses in

750
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: the world have the variety of shots. They have a

751
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Part three like the third at Marion Um, and then

752
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: they have a Part three thirteenth of Marion that's a

753
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty yards. You can't have a hundred and

754
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: thirty yard Part three and a three hundred and ten

755
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: yard par four and do the math and get to

756
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: seventy hundred. So you start to sacrifice vice, the variety

757
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: and the quality of golf holes in order to reach

758
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: this mythical number. And so we don't we don't ever

759
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: focus on the art each it's not the primary thing.

760
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: Our primary goal is to create the best, the most

761
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: compelling and interesting set of eighteen golf holes. And on

762
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: these major championship tests, um, you know that's been somebody

763
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: else's work and we've stuck to that. We haven't said, oh,

764
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: by the way, we could get fifty yards here, but

765
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: it would just totally destroyed the way the golf hole

766
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: was intended to be played. So we we just Jim

767
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: and I are not on the sort of beating the

768
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: bandwagon of Okay, we gotta roll the ball back. We

769
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 1: go to this it's like, listen, the smarter people will

770
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: figure that out. We're just working with what we have.

771
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: You know, could be next year that all of a

772
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: sudden we gotta roll back. And now now we've got

773
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: to think about shortenings and golf courses. But I think

774
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: it's distance is never the primary focus. Withertain distance. But

775
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: we also don't think that that's going to be, you know,

776
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: the be all end. Now that being said, we built

777
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: a golf course in Texas in Frisco that you know,

778
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: if you stretch from back to back and back whole

779
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: locations back tiste can play yards. But that is really

780
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: again just to provide options for Carrie Haig. You know,

781
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: he may get a down wind and he may be

782
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: able to pull a tea back fifty yards that because

783
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: the winds blow howling out of and down wind And okay,

784
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: now that makes sense, but it's within the context again

785
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: getting back to set up as architecture from major championships.

786
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: As as many tools as we can give those guys

787
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: in their toolbox, then they're going to create a better

788
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 1: test for the best players in the world. But yeah,

789
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: distance isn't it's nothing. It's not something Jim and I

790
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: dwell on one of the things my dad has always said, Um,

791
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: if you think about all of the great iconic par three's,

792
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: they're not ten, they're not one nine. All of the

793
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: great great par three's that provide from a major championship standpoint,

794
00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: they provide great theater. Um, you know twelve augusta true,

795
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: there's these great holes. I think I thought you guys

796
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: did a great job with that little short hole at

797
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: um the country Club this year down the hill. All

798
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: the players, um Gil loved that. They all got there

799
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: and went, oh, it's just really really cool, whereas you

800
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 1: would think that they wouldn't think a short hold downhill.

801
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: I mean that guys are hitting too much and stuff.

802
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: But you know, if you missed that green, you're you're

803
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: struggling to get it up and down. Um, what do

804
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: you think that is that all these great iconic par

805
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: three's aren't super super long, and they tended to be

806
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: a kind of cool, almost funky design. I think that,

807
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: I mean, from our perspective, the hardest souls to designer

808
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: long part threes, because they're already hard by their nature

809
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: because they're long, right, and so you're asking somebody with

810
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: one shot to hit a green with a wood in

811
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: their hands, not to hit a fairway, hit the green,

812
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: and then so what do you do to make them

813
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: more difficult? You don't want to put water on let

814
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: me one, put bunkers all over them, whereas a lot

815
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: of the more iconic holes have got sit in in

816
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: the landscape beautifully, and because they've got bunkers around them,

817
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: because it's a hundred and thirty or a hundred and

818
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: forty yards, or there's an ocean along the side of

819
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: the gulf hole because you know, it's all right, it's

820
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: not that long. So I think it's a combination of

821
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: all of those things. Is how do you make long

822
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: holes interesting? And I've talked to tour players and they

823
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: look at long part three and then I'm like, yeah,

824
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to hit the green and

825
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: get out of here with three and move on. There's

826
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: never any sort of feeling of aggression. And architecturally, as

827
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: I mentioned before, we don't feel like physically we can

828
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: do anything to challenge those guys with length, and so

829
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: the focus then goes back to the mental and a

830
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: hole like eleven at the country Club last year, if

831
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: those guys have a wedge in their hand, they can't

832
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: help but be aggressive. It's just not in their d

833
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: n A. They can't stand there and I'm gonna try

834
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: and miss this fifteen feet short, so I got an

835
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: uphill put. Yeah, they're looking at the yardage showing okay, yeah,

836
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm just growing right out. If it's one one fifteen downhill,

837
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: You're right. No matter where they put the pen, where

838
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: they put it front, right, front, left, back, where wherever

839
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 1: they put that pin in the tournament, and that whole

840
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: significant bearing on the championship. I'm Scottie Shuffler. If he

841
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: played that whole, you know, if he'd parted, he probably

842
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: would wins the US Open Championship. And so it's one

843
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: of those things where we understand that there's a certain

844
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: mentality and aggression that that, and we almost want to

845
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: give them enough rope that if they take take the bait,

846
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: then we've got them. And I think Pete I was

847
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: so good at that. You know, we think about the

848
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: angles that he set up, and you know that a

849
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: player will look at a shot and go, okay, what's

850
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: my cover on the hazard, what's the distance to the whole,

851
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: And okay, if the cover is this and the distance

852
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: is that, then they're like, all right, I know I

853
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: can't be short. But if the cover is on this

854
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: line is a hundred and thirty, and if you play

855
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: to the right of that, it's a hunt that covers

856
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty. And if you played to the

857
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: left of it's one forty. Now it's like, oh, man,

858
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: if I missed. If I played the one thirty and

859
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: I pull it just a little bit, now I'm in trouble.

860
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 1: So it's it's those sort of setups where you've got

861
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: the angles, which ultimately, like I said, Pete was was

862
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: a magician with those things. I know, it's interesting. I'll

863
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: never forget. You know, back when it was younger, um,

864
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: we did work at Drout, which was part of the

865
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: regular tournament ROTA, and so the first year that the

866
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: tournament was there after the renovation, and you know, players

867
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: will now nowadays with social media, you know, they set

868
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: the stage in the first practice round. If somebody doesn't

869
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: like something, it gets tweeted, etcetera. And so there was

870
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: some chirping. I don't even think maybe Twitter was around,

871
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: but there was some chirping some players in interviews and

872
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 1: I was walking following I grew up and your dad

873
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: was there and he was walking and he pulled me

874
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: aside and he used colorful language which I won't use,

875
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: but he said, he said, don't let these guys get

876
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: you down. He said, this is a hard golf course.

877
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with it. And there's nothing wrong with

878
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: these guys playing a hard golf course. You did a

879
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: great job here. So getting back to that, you know,

880
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: and and those golf courses identify the best players. And

881
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: we had great, great players win at Drout was three

882
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: years after the rest, you know, the renovation of the

883
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: golf course. So I agree the great players they like

884
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: it hard. They want to play difficult, and you know,

885
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: you hear the stories about Jack walking into the into

886
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: the locker room and guys grumbling. He's like, okay, I know,

887
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: I got that guy beat. And so it's there's the

888
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: great players in this day and age grories. They walk

889
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: in Tiger obviously in his day they know, okay, you

890
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: know this is like you're saying with Trevor Immelman, you know,

891
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: when it's a shootout, anybody in the room can win.

892
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: When is this when it's a major, then you know

893
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: there's really only twenty guys. Maybe some guy gets really

894
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: lucky and gets hot that week, and I think that,

895
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: so we have to remember that when we do work

896
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: and we've had a little bit more over because you know,

897
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to say wing foots bag because Gil

898
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: hands did anything. It's telling us golf course, you know.

899
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: So it's ultimately and we love to go into the

900
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: weeks of major championship saying, hey, focus on Thomas, focused

901
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 1: on telling us, etcetera. But when it's our own work,

902
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, you hear this chirping and I'll be perfectly honest.

903
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: You want to get on your soapbox and say, no,

904
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: that's not what we're trying to do. But then you

905
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: come across the sounding defensive and shrill, and so it's

906
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: just like, okay, And as you were saying, the golfing

907
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: public takes because he's great at golf, he must know

908
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: what he's talking about when it comes to architecture. He

909
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: must know that this is a bad golf hole because

910
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: he said it's a bad golfhole, versus it's a bad

911
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: golful because he may double when he may right. So

912
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: so we I've learned to be more patient with those

913
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 1: sorts of things. Let's take a quick break and we

914
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: are back. Whether it's your work or whether it's the

915
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: of course, you come in and and and helped change um.

916
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: When there is a major championship there. When you watch

917
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 1: players um, not struggle, but when you watch players hit

918
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: shots um and don't make pars um that get into

919
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: trouble as an architect or you like, Okay, that's what

920
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: we wanted to do. That's we wanted to try and

921
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: challenge and it makes you feel good. You take you know,

922
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: some weird perverse thing kind of going hot we got.

923
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: I have always wondered that because you know the golf course.

924
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: When you play golf course, it's it's hard to remember

925
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: the guys that designed them, they're they're doing it to

926
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: to challenge you. The golf course is supposed to be challenged.

927
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: I think I read somewhere I want to say this

928
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: is correct. Al Stair Mackenzie was he did you do

929
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: camouflage in the army and you did something? So it's

930
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: designed by design. The the architect is trying gordless of

931
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: your handicap. They're trying to test you. So when you

932
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: watch your golf course, do you get after the US

933
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: Open it at the country club, do you and just

934
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: get together, you know, by yourselves and say, hey, we

935
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: did a good job on this whole, because that's the

936
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: challenge we wanted. We liked that they but they struggled

937
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: with this. We like the fact that he hit it

938
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: to twenty feet may par and somebody else in the

939
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: group down the stretch may double because twenty feet was

940
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: a good shot, not to five feet. Yeah, we we

941
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: definitely we watch. We're nervous, um and the for two reasons.

942
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: There's so the the learning curve, like you mentioned, is

943
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: important us because we're fortunate now we're going to be

944
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: doing this for a while. We've got a crazy lineup

945
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: of course, is that we're involved with that are gonna

946
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: host major championships over the next decade um, and so

947
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: we want to learn and get better that our craft,

948
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: and so we focus on things from that perspective and

949
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: see see what works and what doesn't. The bigger perspective

950
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,280
Speaker 1: of how we get nervous is really more the perception

951
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: of the golf course, and that's mostly through the member's eyes,

952
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: because rightly or wrongly, um, you know, if Justin Thomas

953
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: shoots fifteen under instead of I know it was six

954
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: or seven or whatever he won with somebody's can say, oh,

955
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: Southern Hills too easy, and you know that golf course

956
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: wasn't good enough to host a major championship, but they

957
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: shoot at Fitzpatrick shoots five or six under. You know, hey,

958
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: that was a tough test of golf. That was great,

959
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: and the members walk away, you know, kind of excited

960
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: and pumped that their golf course stood up to the

961
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: best players in the world. And you get a crazy

962
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 1: situation like Wingfoot, which was just an odd open because

963
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: of COVID and the whole thing. You know, Bryson shoots

964
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: six nme. He's the only guy under part in the

965
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: entire field. And somebody said to me, you know, well,

966
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: what what was it like giving up the you know,

967
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: the record low score for the US Open at Wingfoot?

968
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: Like that was your takeaway from the whole because the

969
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: one guy I you I heard that there as well.

970
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the way Bryson was playing that week, and

971
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 1: you know, my my family has so much history there,

972
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: and you felt like there were a number of members

973
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: at that Wingfoot that were upset that Riston came in

974
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: and was doing the things he's doing as opposed to

975
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 1: going listen, he's doing something amazing on a really really

976
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: hard golf course. Like you said, it's not like, you know,

977
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: six under one and lost in a playoff, and then

978
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: there were two guys at five and four, at four

979
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: and three, I mean with one guy. Yeah, And I

980
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 1: think that so so everybody gets fixated on the score

981
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 1: as being the sort of the arbiter of equality. And

982
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: and as we've been discussing, that's really got everything to

983
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: do is set up and weather that week, and that's

984
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 1: ultimately what what dictates the house score, goes our stand

985
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: From our standpoint, the most important thing is that we

986
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: get a great champion. You really just want, hopefully the

987
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: work that we've done in the golf course to identify

988
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: a great champion, and so that when people look at

989
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: who won the major championship on that year in that place,

990
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 1: they go, yeah, we're really proud to have Justin Thomas,

991
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: We're really proud to have Matt Fitzpatrick. We're really proud

992
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: that there are great players that won these events versus

993
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: I no no offense to to the lesser known players,

994
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: but you really would rather not have that happen. So

995
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: I think if there's any rooting interest you might start

996
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: to think, okay, coming down the stretchy, you know, all right,

997
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: we'd rather have that guy being the major champion versus

998
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: that guy. And so I think that's the only being

999
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: completely honest, that's really the only rooting interests. We're not

1000
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: sitting there going. Boy would love to see them both

1001
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: double the last sole because I think, honestly, we Jim

1002
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: and I, in our own designs, we'd like to see

1003
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: positive outcomes win championships. I think it's much more memorable

1004
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: for a guy makes the last two in a major championship.

1005
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: Then yeah, yeah, one guy made a boat. You know,

1006
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: the guy made a double too. Was that That's not

1007
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: our mindset when it comes to golf and set up.

1008
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: You mentioned set up of a golf course that once

1009
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: you get to, once the design happens, you guys come in,

1010
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: you do to the renovation, the redesign, the tournament goes on.

1011
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: And you mentioned set up. Um, there are so many

1012
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: times that I think sometimes the setup can make the

1013
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: golf course almost unplayable. You know, We're at Marion and

1014
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: it was someday and one of the members was working

1015
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: the driving range and he said, you know, our course

1016
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: is held up pretty good. They haven't beaten it up.

1017
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking in my head, you you've never played

1018
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: this golf course. You first of all, you can't play

1019
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: the configuration of what it is. But on someday at

1020
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: the US Open, nobody is ever going to play a

1021
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: golf course from a set up standpoint that is that

1022
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: baked out, that the greens are that firm, that the

1023
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: rough has gotten that much up. You the average golfer

1024
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: couldn't finish that golf course. And I think sometimes is

1025
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: it not frustrating? But as you said, golf is an

1026
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 1: outdoor sport. They look like they're gonna get whether they're

1027
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: they're trying to stay away from that is sometimes is

1028
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: there sometimes not so much frustration, but you look at

1029
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: and go off. I wish we could have kept the

1030
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: golf course set up this way as opposed to it

1031
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: being set up that way. It's usually on the the

1032
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: easier side, right, It's usually And we had nothing to

1033
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: do with this. And you know, back earlier I had

1034
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: a small career in television when we do the U

1035
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: s O going Fox at the coverage and Wednesday at

1036
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: Oakmont in that was the best conditioned golf course. I

1037
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: think I've ever seen him on life. It was incredible.

1038
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: It was so good. And then you get two and

1039
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: a half three inches of rain Wednesday night into Thursday morning,

1040
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: and it totally changed everything. And it was like, you know,

1041
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine the heartache from the superintendent and

1042
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: the staff and everything. They had it so good playing bouncy,

1043
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: it was playing firm. You had guys from the fairway

1044
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: and the rough thinking, okay, maybe I can chip us

1045
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: out and get this just. I mean DJ on the

1046
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: first hole, I remember his first hole of the tournament.

1047
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: He hit it into the left rough f okmon and

1048
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: I'd already seen a bunch of guys try and go

1049
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: for that green, catch the flyer out of the rock,

1050
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: bounce it over, go down that little hump, and I'll

1051
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: never forget. DJ laid it out front, edge, chipped it up,

1052
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: put it up, made but made Burke made park. And

1053
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: afterwards A J said, you don't even know who my

1054
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: brother was in the on the first hole. Normally we're

1055
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: going white at that pin, we're making double or triple.

1056
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: And he had learned that. But the way that course

1057
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: was set up, like you said on Thursday, can be

1058
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: so different than the way it is by the time

1059
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: it gets the Sunday. Yeah, and and we so, I

1060
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: guess the best way to is you want to set

1061
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: up we we do, other people may the priorities maybe

1062
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: reversed as we want to set up to flatter the architecture.

1063
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: Is to show off every aspect of the architecture that's

1064
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: available to the set up guys, different whole locations. You know,

1065
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: you don't wanted to be so firm and so biked

1066
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: out that we can't use that whole location because it's

1067
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: just over the over the edge. You don't want it

1068
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: to be so soft that they're starting to say, oh man,

1069
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: we've got to go two and a half paces from

1070
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: the edge instead of three, you know, and you're starting

1071
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 1: to go the opposite direction. You really just the thing

1072
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: that most people don't realize, and I've been fortunate enough

1073
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: to be involved in all of these conversations and just

1074
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: or fly on the wall, is how much thought and

1075
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: preparation goes into Like you know, there's there's set up

1076
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: visits start eighteen months before a championship and then they're

1077
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: coming in they're constantly refining and tweaking, and so for

1078
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: people to think that oh, they just made that random

1079
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: decision to put a whole location there today and it

1080
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: didn't work out. No, they've been thinking about that whole

1081
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: location for over a year. And so if the setup

1082
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: flatters the architecture, and the architectural flatters the setup and

1083
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: allows them to use everything, that's the that's the sweet spot.

1084
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: That's exactly where you wanted to be. I think we

1085
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 1: look at it is we don't wanted to go so

1086
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 1: far to the easy side and the conditions because of

1087
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: the mother nature. Um, that's worse than going although you

1088
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: don't want it to get gimmicky, you know where it

1089
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 1: goes so far on the hard side that you know,

1090
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 1: the best players in the world, you're you know, I

1091
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: don't want to beat it up, but you know there's

1092
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: like seven at Shinnekock back in two thousand four. I

1093
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: think of those guys. I mean, the best players in

1094
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: the world can't hit a green with a mid iron,

1095
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: and it's like that's there's something wrong there. That's not

1096
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: right either. So you just hope and I know that

1097
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: John Bodenhammer, Kerry Higg and their teams they don't want

1098
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: to be part of the story. They want to get

1099
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: through the week and not have anybody have any blow

1100
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: ups or any any issues. So it's the combination of

1101
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: the preparation hopefully the certainly the talents of the superintendent

1102
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: and if but the wild card is always mother nature.

1103
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: That's what it comes down to. As an architect um

1104
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: we we've talked there does seem to be a trend

1105
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: towards taking golf courses back to the way they used

1106
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: to look um that style and the agronomy. I think

1107
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: it's changed there. There's been this, in my opinion, this

1108
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 1: augustification of golf courses where there can't be any brown.

1109
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: Everything's got to be green. And as a result, still

1110
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: you have to put so much water on the golf

1111
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: course to have it have this aesthetic look, so it

1112
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: looks like Augusta and no disrespect to what they do

1113
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: at Augusta Nashville, but a lot of times when you're

1114
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: out at that golf course, it looks somewhat not the

1115
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: only term I could come up with, Parts of it

1116
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: look like it's fake that it's it's so overdone right,

1117
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: it's so over manicure. There's these great photos that I

1118
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: come across every now and again with my grandfather when

1119
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: he won there in hit at the water on thirteen,

1120
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: and the water on thirteen looks like a ravine you'd

1121
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: find in West you know, in Texas. There's grass and

1122
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: there's all this stuff. None of it looks ultra ultra pristine.

1123
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: And I think that it's been cool. I mean, you

1124
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: went um two years ago and they went back to

1125
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: this here Congoe on the PGA tour where they went

1126
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: and played what a cool golf course? Wasn't necessarily perfect

1127
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: green everywhere. It had a little brown to it. It

1128
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: had what you talked about to where you walked from

1129
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: the green to the t but it it had some

1130
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: some natural parts to it. And as a designer, how

1131
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: do you judge up? Because again, if the client wants

1132
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: it to look like Augusta and looked super super green

1133
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: and super super perfect, that's really a different design than

1134
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 1: someone saying, hey, just go find the golf holes. Yeah.

1135
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: I think that that comes down to clients selection, right.

1136
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: I mean we're and you know, I realized how fortunate

1137
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: we are and that we have the ability to say no.

1138
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: And so if somebody comes and says, hey we want

1139
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: to I guess so we want to perfect consider we've

1140
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: got to really think long and heart of it. That's

1141
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: something that that we want to do because I agree

1142
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: with you, I'm much we're much more in the line

1143
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: of natural presentation. Firm asked. I got to spend a

1144
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: year in Great Britain and part of a scholarship from

1145
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: Cornell and that's what that's really what all of my

1146
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: principles and focus came from that and the natural presentation

1147
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: of golf course as well as the natural design of

1148
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: golf courses. Augusta National does what they do, They do

1149
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: it better than anybody else. It's the most anticipated tournament

1150
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: of the year. We all look to it. But I

1151
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: think if you gave truth serum to every superintendent the country,

1152
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: they hate it because they look at that and the

1153
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: members come in the next day like, oh, did you

1154
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: see it was great? Degrees? Are fourteen? To look at

1155
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: that was beautiful? And look at that little brown spot

1156
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: of the right. Can you get rid of that? Because

1157
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: they don't have that. Yeah, And so that's that. It's

1158
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: very frustrating for superintendents because nobody has the well very

1159
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: few of course, to do that and make sure that

1160
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: they can keep it and maintain it. But it is

1161
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: it is and You're right, that's the evolution of Augusta.

1162
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: August has evolved into that. It is so iconic, as

1163
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: they said, it's so anticipated. There's no way they could

1164
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 1: ever change that. I mean, they just can't go back

1165
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: to the weedy banks and the grasses and the Mackenzie

1166
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,959
Speaker 1: bunkers with all the rough un edges, etcetera, etcetera. That's

1167
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: sale and maybe for the better because you know, we

1168
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: all love it. It's not like people turn off the tournament.

1169
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,439
Speaker 1: And that golf course has maintained too well. I don't

1170
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: want to look at that, those white stands, bunkers, it's amazing. Lastly,

1171
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: gil Um in two. From a design standpoint, Um, what

1172
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: role do you think that the designers designing golf courses

1173
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: today have to play in trying to grow the game? Um?

1174
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: We've built a nine hole my dad and Kelly Gibson

1175
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: here we built a nine hole part three course. UM

1176
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: where I think the longest holes probably a hundred and

1177
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: twenty yards. It's nine holes. It's it's changed the club,

1178
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: gil Um. Guys play the main course and then they

1179
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: get done. They have launched and they load up on

1180
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: you know, booze and and get the music. Going and

1181
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: go play, you know, ninety yards eighty yard shots um.

1182
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: From an instruction standpoint, guilt getting people on golf courses.

1183
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: They're not good enough to go play. Even if you

1184
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: take them to the ladies tease, they're not good enough

1185
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: to play the golf courses. Do you think I know

1186
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: it's not call its defective, but do you think we're

1187
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: going to see more maybe nine whole, three whole, twelve

1188
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: whole golf courses that aren't necessarily super super hard that

1189
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: our user friendly to help try and grow the game. Yeah,

1190
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: we we built a golf course in in a little

1191
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: nine holer and pine Hursts the cradle, it's it has

1192
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, and Bob Demman, Tom Pastially, you know, they

1193
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: took a chance to make fun the front door for

1194
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 1: the clubhouse at Pinehurst, and you know with the putting

1195
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,479
Speaker 1: giant putting green and then the cradle. And I get

1196
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: more pleasure out of watching people just tooling around out

1197
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: there with their grandkids or parents sitting in the aderundics

1198
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: watching their kids play, or ate sums of you know,

1199
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: knuckle heads playing barefoot and had drinking beers and just

1200
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: the somehow that just clicked in the magic of it,

1201
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,959
Speaker 1: and that so excitement of getting people the introductory level.

1202
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: So the game is based on fund versus frustration. You've

1203
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: got plenty of time to get frustrated with this game,

1204
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: have fun, get to it in a fun manner, and

1205
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: I think that that's incredibly important. We've got, um, you know,

1206
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: people I do Instagram occasionally and you get you know,

1207
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: I've stopped because like, I don't really need that in

1208
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: my life. But you know, whenever we put up pictures

1209
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 1: of these great private clubs that we've done, et cetera,

1210
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: they're like, oh great, you know I'm never going to

1211
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: get to play there. Thanks for putting that up. And

1212
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: it's like that's all we do. But we probably are

1213
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: most anticipated golf course is just going to open sometime

1214
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: next year is the park in West Palm Beach, because

1215
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: we fly over that when we land into two p

1216
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: B I. If you're coming in off the ocean, it's

1217
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: over there on the on the left. If you're taking off,

1218
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: it's over there on the right. And that looks very

1219
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: much like when you fly over. It looks like when

1220
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: you fly over Seminole just looks like a bunch of sand,

1221
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 1: and it really does have that same kind of look. Yeah,

1222
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 1: so it's uber wide, very playable, interesting, But then again

1223
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: it's just that there's enough there that you know, somebody's

1224
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: beginning in the game could just bunted, bunted, bunted, get

1225
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: up on the green. You know, you've got to think

1226
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. But then somebody like you would get

1227
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: out there and be like, Okay, I'm gonna attack this pin.

1228
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: That pin. You can really set that whole set up.

1229
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: And then with the sandy areas and they're all kind

1230
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: of you're not gonna lose the golf ball. There's no water,

1231
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: there's no water on the golf course. It's super friendly,

1232
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, just go out and play golf and not

1233
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: get frustrated with it. And so we're almost when we're

1234
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: as excited about the opening of that because it can show,

1235
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: hopefully from in our opinion, that great architecture, honestly speaking,

1236
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: great maintenance, playability, wide corridors, et cetera, can actually happen

1237
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: in the transferred to municipal golf course where anybody and

1238
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: everybody can go out there for a reasonable price and

1239
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: play that. So I think we'd love to be in

1240
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: a position to help to grow the game. We've done

1241
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: that wherever we possibly can do in pro bono stuff

1242
01:03:54,840 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: with first Tease and and municipal golf courses. Um whole fully,

1243
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: not only are we doing something that will make the

1244
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: game we're playable and enjoyable, but that's somewhere in some

1245
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 1: person who's just coming to the game. They'll they'll start

1246
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: to think, I wonder why I like that whole. I

1247
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: wonder why I don't like that whole. I wonder why

1248
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: this is there and that? And then I think, you know,

1249
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you you know. It's when you start

1250
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: to get to a level where you appreciate architecture and

1251
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: you start to appreciate thought, that opens up such another

1252
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: element of the game versus just trying to get the

1253
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: ball airborne and and survive. When you get to a

1254
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: place where you can actually start to think about, okay,

1255
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: there are questions that are being asked out here, then

1256
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: I think the entirety of the game, and then the

1257
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: the entire beauty of the game really becomes apparent to

1258
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 1: two players. Well, I really appreciate you talking to me, Um,

1259
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: I could talk to you forever. I didn't even get

1260
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: to my favorite golf courses, lay bored in France, and

1261
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: I know you guys have done the second course there. Ye,

1262
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 1: I love that place. That's to me, that is a magical,

1263
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: magical place. Yet to see the new readsign at l

1264
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: A Tree Club where the US Open is going to

1265
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 1: be this year. But I'm super excited. And if it's

1266
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: anything like um, the rest of the work that you

1267
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: guys do, it's it's going to be amazing. Uh. If

1268
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: there's somebody better that in Gulf and our design, then

1269
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: what you guys are doing. I don't know who it is,

1270
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: because you guys are doing, you know, some amazing, amazing work.

1271
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: So how to talk to you guys, And uh, thanks

1272
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: for talking to us, and we'll look forward to seeing

1273
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: you at another major. I mean you're like, you're like

1274
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods at this point, he's walking around and all

1275
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: the other golf course architectures architects are looking at you,

1276
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: going and another major and you're just going yet another

1277
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: major another. It's funny because people say are you gonna go?

1278
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: And I'm going, yeah, usually go sort of Tuesday through

1279
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: Saturday maybe and then leave and they're like, you don't

1280
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 1: stay for the end. I was like, if they're talking

1281
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: about the golf course on the weekend and something probably

1282
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: went wrong. So we cover all our bases. When once

1283
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: those guys show up, that's what the focus should be,

1284
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's on them there. And so we

1285
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: talked about the golf course going into the tournament, but

1286
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 1: after that we we let them play it and see

1287
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: how it goes. But thanks, I really enjoyed. It was

1288
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: a great time to talk to you. And uh, we'll

1289
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 1: hope to see you here. So that was Gil Hants

1290
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:11,920
Speaker 1: UM really really cool interview and hopefully, UM something that

1291
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 1: I want to try and get more on the pods

1292
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: golf course architects because they're the ones that are designing

1293
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: the golf courses that all of us are trying to play.

1294
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 1: And I think anytime you can kind of listen to

1295
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: what they're talking about and how they're doing things. UM,

1296
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: I actually think it can help you to be honest

1297
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: with you play better golf. So UM, I want to

1298
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: thank Gil for doing that. UM. I wanted to mention

1299
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: on a sad note, the passing of Barry Lane. For

1300
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: those of you that don't know, Barry was a stalwart

1301
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: on the European tour. UM he died New Year's Eve

1302
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: was sixty two years old. And uh he was a

1303
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: friend when I worked on the European Tour in the

1304
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: early part of the two thousand's. Um, you know, I

1305
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: worked with Barry for a number of years. Um. He

1306
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: was a five time winner in the European Tour. Uh

1307
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: he was a big part of their Ryder Cup UM

1308
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: teams in the late eighties in the early nineties and

1309
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: was just one of really one of the coolest people

1310
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: I've met. And um, he will be missed. Um, I

1311
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: think the outpouring of condolences and um the emotions that

1312
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: a lot of um, kind of the old school guys

1313
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: on the European Tour, from Ian Woosnam to Thomas Born

1314
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 1: and stuff. You know, Barry he played the tour, the

1315
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: European Tour for over two decades, never lost his card

1316
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: and uh was was was playing on the European Tour

1317
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: Champions their Champions Tour. But um, you know, my condolences

1318
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: go out to his wife Camilla and um you know

1319
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: a lolways look back fondly on the times that I

1320
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,120
Speaker 1: got to spend with with Barry. He was he was

1321
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: just an unbelievable ball striker. Um, he was kind of

1322
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: one of the first of the old school guys. UM.

1323
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: He played from a very very shut position like we

1324
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: see a lot of the modern players. UM. He hit

1325
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 1: the golf ball miles. He had a lot of speed.

1326
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 1: He wasn't a very big guy, but UM, I think

1327
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: anybody that got to watch him hit golf balls, UM

1328
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: was just beyond impressed. And he was just he was

1329
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: a gentleman. And uh, you know he will definitely be

1330
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 1: UM missed and UM yeah really really sad to hear

1331
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:16,599
Speaker 1: about his passing. UM, but want to thank everybody for

1332
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: all the listens for last year. UM. You know it's

1333
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 1: a new year. We're gonna try and continue to get

1334
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 1: good guests. UM. Hit me up on social and let

1335
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 1: me know the kind of guests, UM that you want.

1336
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: You want, you know, more guests from the PGA Tour.

1337
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: Do you want more guests from live? Do you want

1338
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: more guests from outside the golf space? UM, let me

1339
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: know and uh I will do my best to get

1340
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 1: them on but rate reviews. Subscribe to wherever you get

1341
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,839
Speaker 1: your podcast Son of a which comes to you every Wednesday.

1342
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: We will see you next week.