1
00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever wanted a safe space where you can

2
00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: just exist, where for a moment in time, you can

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 1: be you, with all the intricacies and parts of you

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 1: that people don't always understand. Welcome to in the deep

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: stories that shape us. I'm your host, Zach Stafford, and

6
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,560
Speaker 1: each episode we create a space to be you, all

7
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,279
Speaker 1: of you and all your messy and complicated glory. Every

8
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: story shares what it means to be a black and

9
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,960
Speaker 1: Latin X man living with different hardships, whether it's a

10
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 1: struggle of identity, discrimination or health, and how they've managed

11
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,080
Speaker 1: to push forward despite the circumstance. We hope to get closer,

12
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 1: even it's just a little to a road of healing

13
00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:51,040
Speaker 1: and understanding. Welcome back to the final episode of the season,

14
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,000
Speaker 1: and what a season it has been. Over the last

15
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 1: few weeks, we've spoken about identity, community, trust, and healing,

16
00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,480
Speaker 1: and in this closing episode we try to bring it

17
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 1: all together what it means to be authentically us in

18
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,040
Speaker 1: all our complicated glory. We've heard stories of hardship, forgiveness

19
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,399
Speaker 1: and redemption ultimately ending in a place filled with acceptance

20
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: and self love. And what better guests to help us

21
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,840
Speaker 1: bring this season to a close than Bishop O. C.

22
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 1: Allen the Third, a religious trailblazer, human rights activists, and

23
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 1: founder of the Vision Church of Atlanta, whose journey as

24
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,360
Speaker 1: a gay black man was defined by a number of places,

25
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,479
Speaker 1: all juxtaposed in their definition of what a man looks like.

26
00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 1: Bishop Allen's story largely begins at Atlanta, particularly at Morehouse College.

27
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 1: I was curious to hear about his first interactions here,

28
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,040
Speaker 1: the college where he became the quintessential more House man,

29
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,560
Speaker 1: a symbol of ultimate black masculinity, and a place filled

30
00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,400
Speaker 1: with contradictions of what he was meant to represent versus

31
00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:50,680
Speaker 1: who he truly was inside. I was born and raised

32
00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:56,360
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, California, lived in New York, uh, lived

33
00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: in Baltimore, and came to Atlanta. And I was totally

34
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 1: blown away because I grew up hearing about how Atlanta

35
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,280
Speaker 1: was the Black Mecca, and you know, all of the

36
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 1: rhetoric that people, particularly in the nineties, we're using to

37
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,680
Speaker 1: talk about Atlanta. It was exactly what they said. Coming

38
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,440
Speaker 1: from the West Coast, I grew up in a profoundly

39
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: diverse environment and coming to Atlanta that, uh, it's diverse,

40
00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 1: but I think it's sort of sectioned out and if

41
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 1: you will, in various communities, like a lot of other places.

42
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,160
Speaker 1: But it just became very start that there was a

43
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 1: very strong Black presence and very deliberate Black culture and

44
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,240
Speaker 1: legacy and history in Atlanta. And I thought that was

45
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:57,920
Speaker 1: just astounding. Now I came to Atlanta, um broke confused

46
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 1: about a lot of different things, my own mental emotional

47
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,960
Speaker 1: state as relates to my life and my sexuality and

48
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,840
Speaker 1: and my culture and just all of that to some

49
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,919
Speaker 1: very basic things. You know, I was trying to get

50
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 1: my financial aid together. You know, they lost all of

51
00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 1: my information, you know, all of the just a lot

52
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,920
Speaker 1: of chaos and conflict and questions that I had. You

53
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 1: know now that I look back in on hindsight as

54
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:27,239
Speaker 1: always twenty or fifty fifty, and uh, I really thank

55
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 1: God and thank the universe for all of it. But

56
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,640
Speaker 1: at the time I was just you know, it was

57
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: a lot. And I stayed with a family that was

58
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 1: a friend of my family and out in Marietta, and

59
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: I was in their basements, sleeping on the couch, and

60
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 1: I had a little black Nissan and um got to

61
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 1: campus and then was blown away on a whole another level,

62
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 1: and you know, that I was at this all black

63
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,960
Speaker 1: male school that has such a powerful legacy, and the

64
00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 1: moment you step on campus, you feel it, you understand

65
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 1: it in ways that are hard to articulate. UM. I

66
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: had gone to Morgan State University, which was an HBCU,

67
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 1: but you know, morehouse UM has a particular heritage and

68
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: tradition of nurturing young black men. Then, of course, underneath

69
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:31,400
Speaker 1: the cover is this black gay culture space reality that

70
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 1: was just profound, and I hadn't reconciled and resolved everything

71
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,839
Speaker 1: in my own life, and so it just brought all

72
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 1: the questions and all of the things to the surface.

73
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,680
Speaker 1: Creating spaces that were reflective of his own identity, especially

74
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 1: within his community, was important for Bishop Allen, but he

75
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 1: would find out that these spaces were not created equal

76
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 1: and challenge the status quo, especially when it came to

77
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:07,200
Speaker 1: issue use of masculinity. I was there when the young

78
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,920
Speaker 1: brother was beaten in the shower with the bat. I

79
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,159
Speaker 1: was there. As a matter of fact, Not only was

80
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,840
Speaker 1: I there, but I was a part of a delegation

81
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 1: of young black gay men who created a space too

82
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:28,279
Speaker 1: revolt and protest the administration about the homophobic climate and

83
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:34,279
Speaker 1: making sure that there were um official statements by the campus.

84
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 1: I was a part of all of that. You know,

85
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 1: looking back at it, I think it's multilayer because I

86
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,599
Speaker 1: think on one end there is the complications of moving

87
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,600
Speaker 1: into a space that has the homophobia and the challenges.

88
00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,480
Speaker 1: But I would also say, at that age and that stage,

89
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,600
Speaker 1: most black men are men in general, are still trying

90
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 1: to figure out life, and so it's easy to focus

91
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 1: on the homophile be which I think is important. Um,

92
00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 1: it's also important to look at all the complexities of

93
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 1: just what's going on with you socially, sexually, mentally, emotionally

94
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,800
Speaker 1: as you're trying to be come, what you think a

95
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,240
Speaker 1: man is and what that means for you. And I

96
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:27,599
Speaker 1: think Morehouse has a legacy of at least uh trying

97
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,279
Speaker 1: to provide a space for people to figure that out,

98
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,400
Speaker 1: men to figure that out. Yeah, you know that makes

99
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,760
Speaker 1: me want to talk to you about the idea of

100
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,920
Speaker 1: safe spaces. You know, we hear that word a lot,

101
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,240
Speaker 1: especially with religious spaces, especially as churches are seen a

102
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 1: safe spaces. And I think people have this idea that

103
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 1: a safe space means that it won't be uncomfortable. But

104
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,599
Speaker 1: what I've learned is that safe spaces can sometimes be

105
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,479
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable because they're there to mold you and shape you.

106
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,720
Speaker 1: Do you relate to that, or what are your thoughts

107
00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 1: around that idea of when you go to a place,

108
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,640
Speaker 1: like should you be catered to or should you be pushed?

109
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: I pushed, you know, I I don't know where I

110
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 1: sit completely on a lot of things that relates to

111
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,280
Speaker 1: the term space. When we first started the ministry in particular,

112
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 1: we use a lot of the terms, you know, safe space,

113
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 1: safe space, space, space, And then I transition and said, well,

114
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if any space is really safe any space,

115
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 1: like how safe is a space for anyone? Any space?

116
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,440
Speaker 1: And is that the language that we're really looking for.

117
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: I think what we want is a bold space where

118
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 1: people figure out how to become their best selves, how

119
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 1: to tap into their potential and their purpose, bold enough

120
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,120
Speaker 1: to push me. And I think that is the challenge

121
00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 1: that I would like to call myself an honorary millennial,

122
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 1: honorary Generation zer um. But I think that's the problem

123
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 1: with Generation zers and millennials is they're looking for safety

124
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 1: and comfort, and that's not what makes us. We're not

125
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: a strong people. You're not a strong person. You're not

126
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 1: a strong woman, you're not a strong man, are a

127
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,680
Speaker 1: strong human being because your space is without the tension.

128
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:15,560
Speaker 1: If you look at any successful, profound person in history,

129
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: it is because they were thrown into the the gap

130
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 1: where the tension exists. And I think that cannot be

131
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 1: omitted from the process if we're going to be all

132
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 1: that we're supposed to be. Bishop Allen realizes that the

133
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 1: safe spaces don't represent him, all of him in full form.

134
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,840
Speaker 1: There was certainly a need, especially for black men, straight men,

135
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,960
Speaker 1: bisexual men, gay men, to be accepted exactly as they came,

136
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,400
Speaker 1: much like he had done it morehouse, disrupting the status quo,

137
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,959
Speaker 1: he decides to challenge one of the biggest institutions, the church.

138
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,960
Speaker 1: He creates the Vision Church, a place where people from

139
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 1: all backgrounds and walks of life can freely preach and belong.

140
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,680
Speaker 1: But bringing his vision to life would be a long

141
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 1: and trecious road of self discovery. It was powerful. Yet

142
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: I will say this, We all have a destiny. And

143
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,960
Speaker 1: what do I mean by that? There is something I

144
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 1: saw of ourselves not only pulling us to it, but

145
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,240
Speaker 1: um shaping the steps, you know, molding the staircase putting

146
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 1: the staircase in front of us. And so while I

147
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,559
Speaker 1: was blown away by Atlanta, what I've come to understand

148
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,240
Speaker 1: is that all of it was designed. The thing that

149
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,000
Speaker 1: was consistent through all of it was I'm supposed to

150
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 1: be here. This is a part of my journey. I

151
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,199
Speaker 1: didn't know where it was taking me. I didn't know

152
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 1: how I would get there. I didn't know all the particulars.

153
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 1: I certainly had an enormous amount of challenges in the process.

154
00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,559
Speaker 1: But I think even through my pursuit for equality with

155
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 1: so many other brothers on campus, um it was a

156
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,679
Speaker 1: part of my molding. It was a part of my development,

157
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,560
Speaker 1: was a part of my growth, and it was frightening.

158
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,679
Speaker 1: I didn't fully understand how I would get to this

159
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,720
Speaker 1: picture that I had in my head. I think I

160
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:17,800
Speaker 1: was raised to believe I was a change agent. But

161
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: you know, when you're broke, and I say broke to

162
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 1: also include broken, when you're sleeping on the couch, all

163
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,160
Speaker 1: you have is closed in your car and you're trying

164
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 1: to figure life out. When I first got to Moorhouse,

165
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: you wonder, how will I manifest this thing that I see?

166
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 1: And so I think most certainly it moved from fright

167
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 1: two almost this acceptance that you know, maybe I'm not

168
00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 1: going to be a change agent to maybe I'm going

169
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,320
Speaker 1: to be just a change a gent to myself, you know.

170
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: And it's fascinating to see just the road and the journey.

171
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,400
Speaker 1: I would tell anybody you know, the staircase is long,

172
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,439
Speaker 1: but it has a destination. And you must continue to walk.

173
00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,480
Speaker 1: Tired walk and if you cannot walk, crawl up the

174
00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 1: damn stairs. Do whatever you have to do. You'll get there.

175
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 1: I promise you. That's part of my mantra. If you

176
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 1: will like it's the story of my life in spite

177
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 1: of all of the challenges as a black gay man

178
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 1: and that, and then as a leader and and and

179
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 1: as someone who believes he is called to help people

180
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 1: see who they are. You will get there with this

181
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,400
Speaker 1: idea mind being the change agent to himself. First, Bishop

182
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: Allen had begun to crack the code, but finding the

183
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,760
Speaker 1: value and meaning of individuality, especially in a place that

184
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,080
Speaker 1: was so devoted to the better of an entire group

185
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 1: of people, force Bishop Allen to dig deeper. With his

186
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 1: role well defined as a leader, he had to continue

187
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: scaling his message by helping his community see their personal

188
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:17,439
Speaker 1: internal beauty and greatness. I think that I'm going to

189
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:23,320
Speaker 1: use some symbolic language. The right people are people who

190
00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,360
Speaker 1: serve as a net and an umbrella, you know, to

191
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,319
Speaker 1: cover you. They got you. That net is to catch

192
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 1: you and to hold you. But it's all for the

193
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:39,080
Speaker 1: purpose of helping you see more of who you can be.

194
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes that happens through rejection, and it is easy. I

195
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: think the greatest deception is that rejection has no direction

196
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:56,559
Speaker 1: mm hmm, and that we are sulk now I'm you're ready, okay?

197
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: That Sometimes the great deception for us is that a

198
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,160
Speaker 1: lot of our rejection turns us into attention seekers and

199
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:13,199
Speaker 1: affirmation seekers and acceptance seekers rather than using that rejection

200
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,839
Speaker 1: or that tension, are those challenges, are those problematic people

201
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: to turn us inward? Because ultimately I believe you are

202
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,320
Speaker 1: the AHA, you are the answer, you are the person,

203
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 1: you are the one, You are it. You are great,

204
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 1: you are phenomenal, you are brilliance. You're not brilliant, you

205
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 1: are brilliant. And it takes all of everyone to birth that,

206
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,280
Speaker 1: to make that, to develop that, to manifest that in us.

207
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 1: But the challenges with rejection and trauma, it can force

208
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 1: us outward because we're rejected. We make acceptance a fetish.

209
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:04,320
Speaker 1: We spend our entire lives trying to seek and get

210
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 1: acceptance rather than seeing that all of it was designed hopefully,

211
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 1: if it was designed to help us accept ourselves. And

212
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,160
Speaker 1: and that's tough, and it's the truth is. It is

213
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 1: the lesson of life. It is the most difficult thing

214
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,760
Speaker 1: to turn people inward to see who they are and

215
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,680
Speaker 1: see their possibilities. But it takes the umbrellas, it takes

216
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: the nets, it takes the tension in between. In Atlanta,

217
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 1: a black mecca that is constantly intertwined with a complicated

218
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 1: mix of values, finding acceptance isn't always easy, and as

219
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 1: he knows, breaking out of this need for affirmation and

220
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: learning to love ourselves first isn't something we are used to.

221
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,840
Speaker 1: So when it comes to matters of healing, especially in

222
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 1: regards to mental health, spiritual health, or physical health, creating

223
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 1: the spaces that allow people to heal the many parts

224
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,920
Speaker 1: of themselves can be daunting. And as much as Bishop

225
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 1: Allan places and emphasis on redefining future spaces for ourselves

226
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,000
Speaker 1: and for others, he also realizes that there are outside

227
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 1: forces at work. In particular, painful, oppressive parts of our

228
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 1: history that we collectively must address in order to move forward.

229
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 1: But how do we move past these deep wounds that

230
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 1: have collectively hurt community so profoundly, much like HIV, poverty

231
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 1: and racism, And how do these communities heal from their

232
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,960
Speaker 1: history so that their futures are much brighter. It's multi layered.

233
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,960
Speaker 1: And the thing that we don't talk about, you know,

234
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: HIV is much like COVID nineteen HIV, it raises up

235
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: all the disparities that influence it. You know, HIV is

236
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 1: a victim of homophobia, It's a victim of tortured religion.

237
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 1: It is the victim of poverty, it is the victim

238
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,640
Speaker 1: of low, selfless same it is the victim of so much,

239
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 1: you know. And there are so many factors that play

240
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 1: a role in what causes us to be vulnerable. And

241
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,400
Speaker 1: we cannot discount history. I don't know why. It's so,

242
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:23,080
Speaker 1: We're just we have been trained to avoid history. We

243
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: have been taught to not put everything in its context.

244
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:35,080
Speaker 1: Vulnerable populations have a history that was vulnerable. It makes

245
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 1: sense that the lives of black people are Let's talk

246
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 1: about the most vulnerable population. Young black gay men are

247
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: at risk because you live in the United States of amnesia.

248
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 1: And I know we want to move on, and if

249
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,360
Speaker 1: we don't want to talk, I get it. We we

250
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 1: have been culturated in the same environment, in the same structure,

251
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 1: in the same system that has its roots and white supremacy.

252
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: That is the legacy, that is the culture, that is

253
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,199
Speaker 1: the room, that is the space, that is that is

254
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,119
Speaker 1: everything that is a determining factor on risk. And we

255
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, as long as I live, I will not

256
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 1: not raise that because when we talk about every other disparity,

257
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 1: it could be economic disparity, it points in one direction

258
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,120
Speaker 1: the history of this legacy of this country. We talk

259
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:37,240
Speaker 1: about health disparity. But while this is what KNDA, what

260
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 1: Kanda steal sits in Georgia, and what KNDA is not

261
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:50,720
Speaker 1: larger than Georgia. How are you sit in a space

262
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,439
Speaker 1: of understanding the reality of your life and still wanting

263
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: to build more out of that understanding that you are

264
00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,679
Speaker 1: a black gay man that deals with all of the

265
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 1: off or you are a immigrant that's dealing with all

266
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: this stuff, And how do you get to a place

267
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: where you're like, yeah, I live in this really messy

268
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,399
Speaker 1: place where I am oppressed. I have so much weighing

269
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: down on me, but that's not an excuse to not

270
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 1: want more for my life. Yeah, I think it is first,

271
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 1: And I may answer this in a very simplistic way,

272
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,160
Speaker 1: so I'm not suggesting that it is simple. Their layers

273
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,480
Speaker 1: and structures and all kinds of stuff that are designed

274
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,679
Speaker 1: in the world. But I think ultimately it is understanding

275
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,640
Speaker 1: who you are. You are a sexual being, but you're

276
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 1: greater than the sexuality. The melanine in your skin is

277
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: a biological reality, it's not your spiritual reality. You are

278
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: a spirit that found itself in a body maybe to

279
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 1: contain you, because you're that great and you're that phenomenal,

280
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 1: and you're that brilliant and you just had to walk

281
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: into some flesh to kind of walk it out. And

282
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: when you understand that, and you understand your power, you

283
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 1: understand who you are, you can accomplish anything. I believe

284
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: you are divine, and that is how I think we

285
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:26,399
Speaker 1: become change agents. You cannot change the world around you

286
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 1: until you first change your own perception about you. What

287
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 1: advice you give to people, especially Black ay Men, who

288
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,919
Speaker 1: are so afraid of standing in their truth because they

289
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 1: think that's one thing will define them, And how do

290
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 1: you get them to understand that that one thing will

291
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: not define them. It just is the beginning of a

292
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,920
Speaker 1: much bigger conversation that will let them be bigger than

293
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 1: that one thing. I've said this is a lot of places.

294
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: I believe this wholeheartedly. That you must live in your

295
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 1: truth so that you don't die and a lie. Live

296
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,359
Speaker 1: in your truth. It's your truth, and it is truth.

297
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,920
Speaker 1: The greatest thing you have is your truth, yours. It's

298
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 1: not somebody else's truth, and it's no one else's truth

299
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 1: to define or to explain or It's like this term

300
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 1: coming out coming out of what I'm inviting you in.

301
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as come out, come out of what,

302
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 1: if anything. If I'm coming out, I'm coming out to

303
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 1: come into something even greater than what I came out of.

304
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: I'm not coming out. I invite everyone in. So we

305
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 1: have to first change the language. We have to change

306
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 1: our own language about how we see ourselves. And again,

307
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:39,919
Speaker 1: this is why I think if you put stuff in

308
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,919
Speaker 1: the context of not religion, but in the context of

309
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 1: definity or spirituality, that you see yourself as greater than

310
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 1: your parts. Your parts are important too, because the other

311
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 1: thing that I don't want to discount is the beauty

312
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,120
Speaker 1: of your parts. And our sexuality is beautiful and it's

313
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 1: a gift, and it's to be express and is to

314
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: be embraced. It is excellent. Like we must wrap our

315
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 1: heads around that uniqueness that out of the population, you

316
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 1: have been given even greater gifting, you know, even greater

317
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: brilliance in your sexuality because your sexuality, particularly those of

318
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 1: us who are lgbt Q I UM we're talking to,

319
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 1: particularly young black gay man. Because of it, you have

320
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 1: a particular wisdom and a particular insight, and a particular understanding,

321
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: a particular thing that has been given to you. Know,

322
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 1: other culture has understood that, whether it was indigenous and

323
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: native cultures, they understood that two spirit communities cultures in

324
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: Africa and in Asia, they understood that that first of all,

325
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 1: you have a gifting, and the gifting is you and

326
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,479
Speaker 1: what you understand that, then you can move out of

327
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: this space of trying to get the world to affirm

328
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: what is already affirmed. It's affirm because it's you have it.

329
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: You have it, it is you. And once you can

330
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: do that, then you move out of vulnerability into what

331
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: I call true identity. You are greater than what some

332
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: evangelists said. The Bible never actually did say, or any

333
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: sacred text said, and if it did say it, it

334
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: was still written by somebody. Right. It doesn't matter however

335
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: you slice it. You are greater than the voices, particularly

336
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: the negative voices that have been spoken over you. For

337
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: those of us that often feel overwhelmed by the greatness

338
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: of the world, those of us that look up at

339
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 1: the stars that think, wow, I'm nothing, I'm so tiny

340
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: in the bigger scheme of things. This message that Bishop

341
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: Alan Bree is so important that your contributions to yourself

342
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: to others, regardless of how big or small, do matter.

343
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: And for him, learning our place in the space, this bigness,

344
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: as he calls it, helps us heal internally. Yeah, I

345
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: mean you were created out of that bigness. You came

346
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: out of that. Now. You know, if I was talking

347
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: to black people as a whole, a group of black people,

348
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: I would even get more mystical and say, you came

349
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 1: out of that black sky. Is you, that's you, and

350
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: that is in you, and it was created for you

351
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: and we are both anned. So you are a spec

352
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: but you're also the thing that created the spec and

353
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: I think so many spiritual teachers have have tried to

354
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: say that in one way or another. I think we

355
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 1: miss it because it is particularly you know, unfortunate lee

356
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: the Christian tradition I came out of, Like, I appreciate

357
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: you saying that you know taught us. You know you

358
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: are dusted, you are nothing, and you are just sing

359
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: and you are at all. Yeah, I don't believe that.

360
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: Like that absolutely contradicts everything I understand about God. Like

361
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: I am wonderfully made, I am beautifully made, I am everything.

362
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: Even my flaws have beauty. It's like a rose. You'll

363
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: look at the beauty of the rose and miss the

364
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: thorns if you're not careful. They're both on the same thing.

365
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: But that's what makes it beautiful. And we have to

366
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: see that. If we can see that, and it takes

367
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: work to see that, that's why we need more zacks,

368
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: we need we need more safe spaces really, because that's

369
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: the point. The point is helping us see who we are. Well,

370
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 1: it's easy to focus on the other stuff, but how

371
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: about we and our attention to our bigness rather than

372
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: our smallness. Yeah, I love saying this. A stereotype is

373
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: just a chapter in a book someone hasn't fully read.

374
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: Jet you know, for people out there and people out

375
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: there who think who take things like you know, their

376
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: sexuality there j V. Sat As, all these slices of them,

377
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: and if they think that's it that defines them, then

378
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: they need to change that, as you're saying, and see

379
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: the bigness be like, that is a beautiful piece of me.

380
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: But I am all these other things, and within that,

381
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: I am dust and I'm big. Let me tell you

382
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: why I love the story of Jesus so much, um,

383
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: and I would rather follow the principles of Jesus than

384
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: the religion of Jesus. Right that people the religion they

385
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: impolosed on Jesus. But you know what I absolutely absolutely

386
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: think is a very interesting way of looking at the story,

387
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: particularly at the end where you know he's carrying this

388
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: cross through a city and it's just I mean, it's

389
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: really painful and traumatic time for him, and you can

390
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: you know, people make it so religious, but I think

391
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: just the humanistic part of some man carrying a piece

392
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: of huge wood that's bigger than him, it's like carrying

393
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: your sexuality. And you know they nailed him to it.

394
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: That's like your sexuality. You know, people will nail you

395
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: too publicly. You know, even people who have been exposed.

396
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: What is it? Are your HIV status or you know,

397
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: crucify you or ship maybe you crucify yourself. Most of

398
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: us we crucify ourselves. We put ourselves on the cross

399
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: of our trauma. But what I luck about the story,

400
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: this is a great tie into Easter right that if

401
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: I were to turn it into metaphor, that Jesus takes

402
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: that same experience and turns that that whole thing into

403
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: my dynamic resurrection, like turns the whole thing upside down,

404
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: like they complete. I'm gonna use my sexuality and so

405
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: of using as a metaphor as my resurrection, I'm going

406
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: to use all of what I've been through that crucified

407
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: me as a part of my coming out, as a

408
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: part of my growth, as a part of my development,

409
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: as a part of my power. Is my superpower. It

410
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:31,719
Speaker 1: makes me what conduct because of the trauma, not in

411
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: spite of it, not in spite of it. So whoever's listening,

412
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: if they are HIV positive, or they're struggling with their truth,

413
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: or their family has rejected them, you can turn that

414
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: into your superpower. You can use it, so rather than

415
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: avoid it are move a wife from it, it might

416
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: be your superpower. For Bishop Allen, redefining safe spaces is

417
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: crucial to the healing of the individual, and although these

418
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: safe spaces are communal, he reminds us that the most

419
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: important space is the one within ourselves, that we are

420
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: great and enough and powerful exactly as we are. Throughout

421
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: the season, we've seen how complicated and nonlinear healing can be,

422
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: especially when tapping into those unseen facets of identity. Stepping

423
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: out into the world as simply us with all of

424
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: our contradictory identities, regardless of how messy, complicated, or imperfect

425
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: they are, can be terrifying. But, as Bishop Allen defines it,

426
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: tapping into those different portions of ourselves this bigness helps

427
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: us see that we are so much more than one

428
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: thing or one group, and on the road to healing.

429
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: Believing that we do belong, regardless of our preferences, status,

430
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: or background, is the ultimate key to self love and redemption.

431
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: This has been in the deep stories that shape us,

432
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: and what I want each of you to know that

433
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: has been with us this entire season is that your

434
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: story no matter how big or small, matters, Because you matter.

435
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: Find this episode and others on the I Heart Radio app,

436
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Don't forget

437
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review if you enjoyed this conversation.

438
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: The show is produced by Ivan Chian and mastered by

439
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: James Foster. Our show researcher is join A Raggio and

440
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: our writer is Evette Lopez. A special shout out to

441
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: our guest Bishop O c Allen. I'm your host, Zack Stafford.