WEBVTT - Clay Travis talks with Dan Wetzel 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Wins and Losses with Clay Travis. Clay talks 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.840 with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business. 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:20.920 Now here's Clay Travis. Welcome in two Wins and Losses. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.800 I am your fearless host, Clay Travis. This is our 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.080 sixth different episode of Wins and Losses. If you haven't 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.280 heard it yet, I'd encourage you to go check out 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:33.560 some of the earlier five episodes. Jason Whitlock, SEC commissioner, 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.080 Greg Sanky, Shannon Terry, who sold Rivals to Yahoo and 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.879 seven Sports to CBS. We talked to Mike Leach, Washington 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.479 State head football coach, and Paul Findbaum of the SEC 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:50.279 Network and ESPN. We are joined to this episode by 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:55.480 the most read national columnist in all of the United States. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.279 I believe that is accurate. He is Dan Wetzel at 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.720 Yahoo Sports. You can find him at dan Wetzel on Twitter. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.440 He is in the process of writing a series of books, 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.120 sports biographies for middle schoolers. I've got him in my house. 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.240 The kids are actually reading them. The two that we 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.360 have in our house already. Alex Morgan, US women's soccer 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:18.000 player Steph Curry, Tom Brady and Serena Williams will be 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.440 out soon. Uh So the plug here he didn't ask for. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:23.600 But the truth is, if you're like me and you've 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.440 got young kids and you're trying to get them to 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.760 read something, uh, these are really books that ideally would 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.560 appeal to them, and you can. It's a sort of 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:34.760 sort of like giving a healthy food while at the 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.479 same time you're getting a benefit because it's a sports biography. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.400 So if they like sports, they're getting that, but they're 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.000 also actually reading, which is important. And as if that 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.640 weren't enough, Dan Wetzel is joining us right now from France. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.760 He's traveled all over the world covering sports. Uh, and 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:51.520 we're gonna get probably a little bit to what it's 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:53.760 like to be in France. But Dan, first of all, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.160 thanks for joining us. Uh. Second, when you were growing up, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.200 did you ever think that you might one day be 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:05.720 the most read national sports columnists in the country. Uh? No, no, 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.960 I don't. I don't think that concept ever Uh struck 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.040 me as anything. I do think I recall as a 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.800 kid being like intrigued that people were paid to fall 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:20.040 around the Boston Bruins, yes, and uh and report on them. 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:21.760 But I think I would have just gone and been 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.480 a fan. I don't think I would have really grasped 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.240 what the job was. But uh, yeah, no, I did 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.640 not think people would Uh many people would read me 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.160 let alone that I'd be like in France covering women 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.959 soccerbout seeing that probably was conceptually not possible when I 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.400 was young. Yeah. No, it's a good point, all right. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.200 So we're gonna get to all of that and work 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.680 your way up to how you end up at Yahoo 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.960 Sports again. Dan Wetzel on Twitter at Dan Wetzel. But 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.360 I want to start here. You mentioned growing up in 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.880 Massachusetts in the Boston area. What was your background, How 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.200 did you kind of move your way into the educational system. 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:01.880 Where did you grow up? What was your childhood like? Yeah, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.080 I grew up in the South Shore of Boston. Um, 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.840 you know, uh, just you know, I went to I 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.919 went to public school eighth grade, went to all boys 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.440 Genterit School in Boston, PC High and high school, and 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:21.440 then once the University of Massachusetts for college. And UM 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:26.720 really was not looking at all at um journalism really 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.880 until I got to you math, and I kind of 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.760 joined the student paper and like a club like almost 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.640 something to do. So yeah, they had an ad in 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.000 the paper, and I remember being like, I might be interested, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.360 and they're down there like just trying to meet people 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.000 the first week of school. So it started. So when 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.120 you're growing up in in the Boston area, were you 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.280 a fan of all of the Boston area teams? The 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.080 Red Sox, the Patriots. I mean that you mentioned the 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.320 Boston Bruins. I mean a typical you know, depending on 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.520 where you grew up, but regional, regional American childhood where 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:59.520 you root for the teams that are local to your 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.720 your home down. Yeah, absolutely, And we read My dad 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.320 though was that you know, we got three or four 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.640 newspapers a day in the house and so and you know, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.520 there wasn't like it wasn't that much to do back then. 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.640 I mean, so it's like when the news, like the 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:15.920 newspaper was there, you read it because it was like, 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.640 you know, they do only have sports on. It was 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.960 pre fpn um. But you know, like you just didn't 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.560 have like endless opportunities to watch sports. So would be like, wow, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.240 I read the paper, paper, afternoon paper game. It was 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.920 like something to do. So I definitely read a lot um, 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:35.800 but it wasn't like I was sitting there going, oh, 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.000 I want to I want to do this. So you 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:40.880 go off the U Mass. What did you think you 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:42.279 were going to major in when you end up at 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:48.760 UMass a major A majored in political science. I think 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.080 I thought I might be a lawyer. I don't know 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:52.920 what I was really, I was just trying to get 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.599 a degree. UM. That was kind of my main goal 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:58.800 was just get the college and then get a degree. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.040 Uh So, I like I worked a lot and just 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.160 and I didn't really have a set plan. And then 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.320 I just started. I started covering sports really again just 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.719 for something to do. It was pretty fun UM and 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.840 it kind of took off. John Calipari was a U 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.280 Mass at the time, and you know, not only did 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.960 he get the basketball team UM to be good, he 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:27.000 was and remains this like just a tremendous newsmaking figure. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.640 So he was always causing some kind of like story. 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.440 It was always it was very very interesting and exciting, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.240 like you know, he'd be fighting with different coaches. You know, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.680 I was there the day John Chaney went after all UM. 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.279 He just was. It was there was so much news 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.520 off of this that it was like this was really 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.440 fun to cover and I think that really was like 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.839 when I was like, you know, this is this is great, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.719 Like if I could do this, um, this is a 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:56.360 pretty enjoyable career. And so that's that's kind of how 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.279 most of it really started. So do you remember the 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:04.080 first story you of a road at UMS? Yeah? Yeah, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:09.120 I thought my first beat was the women's across country team. Yeah. 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.320 Uh brutal. Okay, so you go, have you ever been 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.679 to across country meet? You would know and you probably 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:17.200 never thought of writing a story about it. But they 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.800 shoot a gun and and the women run into the 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.719 woods and then they come back like twenty minutes later 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:30.160 and they finished, and that's a cross country Okay, So 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.240 you don't see any of the race at all. You're 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.960 just standing there at the Yeah. But you so you go, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.360 well what happened? You know? And then it's like you 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.520 get their times and you try to spell their names, right, 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.119 I mean, I mean stories were just trying to do whatever, 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.040 but you know, and then the West I tried to 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:48.880 run as fast as I could. I mean, what strategy. 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.760 You're very strategy, but like you know, you've been a 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.960 second ago. Here's my question, did you consider going faster? 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.560 Like I don't know, what I no idea? What to 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.680 ask you? This cross gunt people talk about like is 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.120 it hard to write like a running game or at 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.160 the super Bowl? Is it hard to cover the the Olympics? No, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:13.000 now cover a women's college cross country meet in the rain? Okay, 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.840 that's hard, Okay, like cover I covered a um uh 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.120 girls soccer game once in high school to think zero 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.559 zero because I was freelancing toil like a local paper, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.600 like a zero zero game. Okay, what do we got here? 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.120 Those those are hard to write. Something always happens with 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.800 the super Bowl. Okay, don't worry about the super Bowl. 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.640 So yeah, I do remember um and I just remember 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.200 I was trying to spell the names right. That was good. 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.320 Do you realize like they you know, like this thing 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.560 actually gets pret it's a campus paper, but when you're 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.760 at college, like that was everything, So get get the 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.680 names right? Were you a good student? Three women were 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.960 pretty good looking too, So yeah, as a college kid, 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.080 that wasn't a bit you had. You had an excuse 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.480 to talk to him, which isn't an which isn't an 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.440 awful problem. Uh. Were you a good student? Were you 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.480 a good student at all? When you were you know, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:08.360 like k through twelve and in the in the U 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.320 Mass I mean, were you were you thinking like, oh, 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.760 I'm you know, like academics is my pathway? You said 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.280 you mentioned law school. Is that a sign that you 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.560 were pretty good or were you disinterested or how would 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.960 you describe yourself as a student. I was determined. I 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.880 don't know if I was necessarily there's a lot of 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:30.400 law schools. They go to Vanderbilt. I was, I was. 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:32.480 I don't know, I was pretty good. I don't I 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:33.920 don't know what I mean. I think i'd like at 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.280 three five in college or something like that. Okay, I 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.800 was good, but not not as Union's in any way 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.280 share or form Alright, I would work really hard to 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.000 get a good grade. That was what I would do, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.199 all right. So you were covering women's cross country or 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.520 a cross country meets soccer matches. When do you get 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.880 to go to a game that there's a crowd there 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.200 and you actually feel, oh, wow, I've got a good seat. 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:57.600 Like when's the first thing you covered and you thought, Wow, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.559 it's really cool that I get to sit here and 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.680 watch this. It was probably like a men's basketball game, 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:09.120 um uh that you know, like a good U mask 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.040 men's basketball game. You know they were they play somebody good. 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.200 This is for people who don't people who don't remember. 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.920 This is during the Marcus can be Ish era, Carmelo 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.959 Travis like first first year was before Marcus. But yeah, 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:27.800 that group, that group and ran and Blue roll definitely, 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:33.120 Um yeah, am I right about that? They had Edgar Padilla? Yeah, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:38.280 I remember that, those Puerto Rican backcourt. Yeah, uh wad 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.720 Edgar and Carmelo good guys. You have Marcus, So yeah, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:43.599 some of that. And then you're like, this is like 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:45.600 an actual event, and not only that. You sit there 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.040 and it's like the guy next to you show at 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.800 the boss the globe, like you know, so you're like wow. 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:51.960 And then you know like it was a big enough game, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:53.719 like Bob Ryan would come and you're like, wow, this 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.920 is like serious stuff. Um so that was kind of 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.640 that was kind of fun. So you're covering Calipari and 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.000 you mentioned and that the John Cheney story. And for 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.640 people who don't remember when John Chaney just went off 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.960 on John Calipari and was like I'll choke you to death, 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.480 I'll kill you. You were sitting in that room. What 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.559 was I mean? That had to be like an out 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:17.040 of body experience. It was awesome. Yeah, it was absolutely banana. 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.559 So there's no social media. There's no like like you 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.280 had to wait and see if it came on Sports 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.760 Center like later like now they probably like break in 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:28.960 on it or something or just be all over Twitter. 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.120 And but at the time, it was like, did that 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:37.839 seriously happen? And Um, what had happened was Chane had 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.000 come in and Donna press conference and he had actually 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.400 like praised the team and didn't this really good game. 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.440 I think they're both like in the top ten really 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:49.679 heated game. You m asked one Chaney. I always love 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:56.560 Chaney still do um and he, you know, it comes 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.679 in kind of praises them many leaves. But while he 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:04.320 was in his press conference, he heard that Calipari had 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.760 like gotten into it with the officials after the game. 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.280 And there's still a lot of dispute on whether that 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.440 actually happened or not or whatever Janey thought it did. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.120 And so then he just comes storming back in and 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.160 it was like, all right, what's he doing back? And 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.680 I was like and I thought he was just gonna 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.719 be like, hey, good luck to restaurant or something like that, 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.160 and he just started going crazy and you're like, is 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.280 this like actually happening, Like he's gonna go track, It's like, 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:30.960 I'm gonna kill you. And he went up there ready 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.320 to fight him, and Um, to his day, I wouldn't 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.920 fight John Cheney. I mean he's eighty something years old, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.040 Jeff John James is gonna win the fight, so nobody 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.880 should ever try to fight John Janey. So he's literally 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.880 like could have been worse, but um, two emass players 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.880 kind of broke it up. Kept it took two guys 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.400 the old Cheney back to like twenty year old college 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.760 basketball players, and uh yeah, it was awesome that I 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:57.480 was like, this is this is just a nom It's 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.760 probably how I ended up telling of sports and sports 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.400 are for So how many people were actually in the 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.920 room when that happens, because people may or may not. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:06.920 If you haven't seen it, you can go YouTube and 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:12.000 I'm sure it's out there because if it happened today everywhere. Yeah, 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:13.880 I stand up in the middle of it. I'm watching, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:18.040 I'm like, yeah, reporter on the scene. Um, it was 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.640 probably like thirty people. There was as interview room after. 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.800 So you can see yourself though in the video if 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.280 you go back and watch it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.480 replay it like on ESPN every once in a while, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.520 like you know ten best coaching belt bounds or something 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.120 and uh and I'll be on there. So did you 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.319 so you're covering then as as a student reporter? Um, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.040 have you had any interaction like does John Calipari remember 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.199 you from having covered him when you were writing for 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.240 the U Mass student newspaper now that both of you 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.200 have gone on to obviously uh different directions. I mean 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.680 he's obviously had a lot of success at at Kentucky 0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.800 and you're a national columnist at Yahoo. Do you think 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.840 he's aware that you covered him that far back? Yeah? Absolutely? 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:09.800 Yeah where never were I gotta touch? So yeah he knows. Okay, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:11.440 right A mout and talk to him very often now, 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.959 but I could so you you cover, you mask you 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:21.000 graduate from college? Yeah, you mask back then, Like this 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.839 wasn't like Kentucky basketball there's only like five or six 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.439 people cover the team, so it was fortunate for you. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.280 Do you think you would have been a sports report 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:30.920 Do you think you would have been a sports writer 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:32.840 if you Mass had been what U Mass has been 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.800 for most of their career, you know, like a mid 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.880 range at best a ten caliber basketball program. Do you 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.719 think that them being good made you think, hey, this 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:44.199 is something that I want to do in a way 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.520 that you wouldn't have if they had been thoroughly mediocre 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.679 very well. May not have very well, may not have. 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.120 It's hard to say, but it wouldn't be a spun. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.000 That wouldn't have been a big so probably wouldn't be 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.679 excited me as much, and I wouldn't have seen that 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.079 there was like an opportunity me there. I might have 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.280 stopped into journalism anyway, but I absolutely when I first 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.160 got out of We'll get to that, I guess. But 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.120 I also liked covering like crime and news and stuff, 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.120 so I might have ended up going more that route, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.679 but I probably not because my real, first real job 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:19.880 was covering college basketball. So a lot of it was 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.440 connections I made while I was a college student covering 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.560 Mass because there are such a big story. All these 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.800 people came through to write about them and TV people 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.280 and everything. All Right, So you graduate from college, you've 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.640 been able to cover John Calipari and U Mass as 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.800 they made the most successful basketball run, and you know, 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.160 the last what forty years of U mass athletics I 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.560 would imagine, and then you graduate from college and what happens? 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:47.880 How do you get a job in the world of sports? Well, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.680 I go and work actually covering uh news. I covered 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:56.600 crime for a summer at the Indianapolis News Indiana. There 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.000 was a recession and like the Northeast at that time, 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.920 so there really wasn't ops. Um. I was out there 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.200 for that. I was covering, you know, whatever house fired. 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.960 I covered a murder trial like it was great, um 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.000 And I really liked doing all that. And you would 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.680 have been you would this would have been like what year, 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.200 Like what year do you start your career in Indianapolis? 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.960 I just maybe nine or something like that. Okay, so 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.160 the internet the your summer intern The internet is just 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.760 starting to kind of percolate. Right. Do you remember the 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:34.320 first time you got on the internet. I don't really, 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.040 but it was, Yeah, the internet was I actually wrote 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:45.240 sports for the original American Online if the old dial up, 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.360 and they had this a little they had these little taps, 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.360 and I got to know the guy who was in 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.400 charge of the sports tab on America Online. And I 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.040 would write like once or twice a week, like a 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.880 story or column about sports on there. I can only 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.800 imagine when people read that thing, what did you get astronomical? 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.600 What did you get paid for that? I couldn't like 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.040 so that, But but you for people out there you 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.800 don't remember, you used to have to get on the internet. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.560 America Online would send out all these yeah, all these discs. 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.040 You'd plug them in and then your phone line and 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.360 would get like a worrying sound, you know, like and 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:25.440 for I'm taking people back in time who were old 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.600 enough to remember this, and the younger people who are 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:28.720 listening to are like, what in the hell are you 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.200 guys talking about? And then it would pop up, like 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.960 you know, you'd get that that connection, and there would 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:39.320 be a mail Yeah, you got mailed. Yeah, And then 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.160 there was like a news tab. There was like a 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:45.240 sports tab and maybe like a weather for something. And 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.440 I wrote on the sports tab America was a O 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.280 L sports And it wasn't getting tad much. But I 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.080 mean literally the entire world the only way to get 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.720 on the Internet was through that page YEA at that time, 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.440 And so I can only imagine that we're probably like 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.720 you literally would write something like I don't even know 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.399 twenty million people would read it have been I mean 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.439 it might well, be true, because it's the best. I mean, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.840 it's like the Netflix homepage now and we'll talk about 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.920 the Yahoo homepage and it's impact, I mean, which is 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.879 obviously still massive. So you're writing in Indianapolis. Uh, and 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.679 how long does that gig go on? You're covering house fires, 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.320 you're covering former trial for four months and then what happens? 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.480 Then I went to Chicago Tribune for like four months, 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.480 same thing, like just news, all sorts of just like 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.040 shooting something. Whatever the hell going Chicago, great New city. 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.199 So just total Bayham every day, every day. So did 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.640 you did you send out like the clips from your 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.200 U mass articles? How did you get those jobs? Yeah, 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.399 you have to apply to get a clip pack You 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.800 you have to send a lot of a lot of 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.200 you send a lot of them out there. That's just 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.480 kind of a problem. So the process of getting a 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.040 job is hard, Like you would have to work your 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.240 ass off to get a gig in any way. You 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.080 send a hundred packets, I mean you just had to 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.520 because you didn't know who were at a job and 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.040 if anyone would read them and you and you had 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.080 to print them, you had to change the cover page, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:16.960 you had to fill out the address. You had to 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.359 find the right person to send it to, like if 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.240 you couldn't just email or go on like zip recruiter 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.760 and like it just just fine job with a pain 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.399 in the neck back then, so you get that, and 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.919 then you moved to Chicago and then what happens all right, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:35.200 So then so I really liked covering news. But then 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:39.440 this magazine's uh, this guy Larry Donald who who owned 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:44.120 a magazine called Basketball Times Magazine, and I had met 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.840 him from the mass he lived in Detroit, and it 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.639 was like a man, you were just write about college 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.119 basketball and correct these long stories. There's a lot of 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.520 freedom of the writer. And my Schago tribute thing was 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:02.639 ending and I got offered like a job covering news 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.920 and like I'm not even from the Midwest, so like 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.159 Chagro was great, Indianapolis is good, Chad was great. And 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.680 then I got this job offer like covering this small 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.240 town outside of four Wayne, Indians and I was just like, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:19.399 I was like I don't want to do this. I 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.800 just I'm I'm just not a farmer like my thing. 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:26.600 And then I had this Overgeny to go work for 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.520 Basketball Time City. So it was a much smaller complication, 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.919 but write and report pretty much do whatever you wanted. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.399 So I took that job and it was in Detroit, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.720 which is you know I wanted. I was just want 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:40.400 to go. I always want to be in a big city. 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.680 That's just me. Um. So I took that job, and 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.719 at a basketball times, I just had this great uh 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:52.399 freedom to let learn how to write. And that was 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.920 probably the best thing that especially at that age. I 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:57.960 didn't need a lot of money. I didn't really need 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:00.800 the prestige like I would be a Scott a tribute 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.479 and like could be a murder. Like you get out 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.639 there early and they'd be like something on us, Like 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.879 we had these police scanners other stuff that allright, homicide, 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:11.960 you know, like south Side talking it down there, you 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:16.000 interview all these people, this kid got killed. Whatever you go, 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.320 and it's been like it's just a brief, Like you 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:20.280 have all this stuff to write a story and be 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.920 like four paragraphs and it's just like you so you're 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:25.760 working at a big place, but you weren't really doing 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:30.600 like impactful work, and so the opportunity to like just 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.600 try this was what really appealed to me at basketball times. 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:36.359 And then I was just able to kind of do whatever. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.359 That was my big break. What would they pay you? 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.160 Because a lot of people wonder about getting your foot 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.760 in the door. Do you remember what your early salaries 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:49.400 were in those jobs? I think at basketball don let's 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:55.199 take twenty two thousand. I'll tell you a funny story though, um, 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.159 which was not much money van horn now, but it 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.440 was enough that I could like live. That was it. 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:04.359 I mean I was twenty three years old or something, 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.560 so you don't really need much. And I really encourage 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.399 people when they're younger, don't worry about money. Plenty of 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.760 time to worry about money. The money will find you 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.119 if you. If you, this is the time to not care. Right, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.800 You get a roommate, you drink sheep beer, you live 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.359 in it, it doesn't matter. But I do remember I 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:23.480 actually out to have this job interview. I went to 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:28.560 the Valparaiso I think it's called like the Videt Messengers, 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.000 this newspaper in Valparaiso, Indiana, you know val Paris University 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:34.440 of So I go into this interview. I think I 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.600 was in Indianapolis. Then there was a sports job and 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.040 I'm in the thing and the guy goes on, we 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:45.480 want to hire you. Um, we can offer you fifteen 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.640 thousand dollars a year. It was really awesomely fifteen thousand dollars, guys, 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.680 that's like less than like like seven dollars an hour. Again, 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.520 I'm like, I used to work construction and make more. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.920 I'm like, I was just like and I must have 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.400 been so stunned and quitted. This town was so cheap. 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.359 I probably gonna live there for fifteen thousand dollars. So 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.920 I was like, I gotta college. You m works. So 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:08.920 I was like, I can't take that job. You gotta 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:10.440 pay any more like that, and I think I just 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:14.479 said it so boldly. He's like okay, So gets up 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:16.880 and he walks all across the news room, like into 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.879 the publisher's office, like let me go check. So I'm like, 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.919 oh man, look at this negotiating like I am styling, right, 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.160 I'm killing this right. So he comes back. I swear 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:33.720 it swearing story is true. Right, we can give you 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:41.560 fifteen thousand, one dollar two bucks a week, two bucks 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:49.720 a week. I was like, what, uh, So I didn't 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.560 go there, but um, I could have, but actually I 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.320 would have been better off there than like even stayed 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.680 in Chicago. Because you if you're a writer. You want 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:00.240 to write, you have to learn how to write, and 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:01.680 you have to learn how to report. You have to 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.320 learn all of us. You have to you just the 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.720 guys who never do all that stuff. Man, it's it's 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:09.960 a tough it's tough. Like I just you can be 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:12.240 really good without going through some of those grinds and 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:14.160 cover trying to find out how to make a windy 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.560 across country meet interesting. But man, that's a good skill 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.000 to have, you know, like you just to just jump 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.399 to where it's easy. I don't know. I'm glad I 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.359 went that round. So be sure to catch live editions 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:30.080 about Kicked the Coverage with Clay Travis week days at 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:34.760 six am Eastern, three am Pacific. We're talking to Dan Wetzel. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.960 This is the Winds and Lost his podcast. I'm Clay Travis. Okay, 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:42.600 so five, you're living in Detroit. Uh, what do you want? 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.080 You're writing for the Basketball Times? What do you do? Like? What? What? 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:48.440 What is your job there? And how long do you 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:54.159 stay there? Um? Yes, I'm writing like feature articles, just 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:56.359 all sorts of different stuff. But it was just opening 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.119 up all sorts of like opportunities to do a lot 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.600 of radio TV because you're just like a guest or 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:05.960 you're meeting all these people. So like one of the 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:10.800 story of the Nfasketball Times was on UM Don Haskins 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:13.520 and and uh and you tap, he's a head coach 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:15.560 at you Tap, which is the Texas Western, which in 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:20.520 nineteen sixty six was the first UM all black starting 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.960 lineup when they were Texas Western. So I did this 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.720 long story on Don Haskins, got to know him as 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.639 a friend and like not immediately, it takes time, but 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:33.680 that eventually led to the book Glory Road, and it 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:37.080 was a Disney movie Glory Road. Um. There was like 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:41.520 opportunities I did. UM. I covered a ton of a basketball. 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:43.800 I covered all these guys in the NBA when they 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:46.640 were like in sixteen and seventeen years old. We would 0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:49.000 do all the recruiting. But instead of just doing recruiting 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:52.480 like where you're going to school, what's your top five? 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:55.040 You know where you're gonna visit. I I just got 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:56.960 to know all the figures in it, and I ended 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.560 up doing the book. I wrote a book with with 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.240 Don Yeager, who was a sports illustrating than called UM 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:07.040 Soul Influence, all about how shoot companies and we're dumping 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.200 all this money into a basketball and it's like completely 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:15.320 corrupt and bananas and um, so I was doing it 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:17.879 was just leading to all these other things because you 0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:21.119 had the opportunity to do these stories. So that was 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:23.280 kind of a real benefit of basketball times. I think 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:27.359 I was there at about two thousand maybe something like that. 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:29.440 But we just have so much freedom. Ary Donald was 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.840 just a great editor, um and just was like, you know, 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.040 go go fail, go fail and try things. And that's 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.880 that's why that job was so good for So you're 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.479 in Detroit at the time, living as your base. Are 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:45.440 you traveling a lot to write these stories? Yeah, like 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:48.080 once a month we go I go somewhere in college 0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.960 sports or like the AU circuit maybe maybe like once 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.000 one weekend a month, or you know, a few days 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:56.320 here and there. There was a shoe string budget, but 0:25:56.520 --> 0:25:59.200 we would make it work. So the internet is also 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:01.520 starting to grow, like these are some of the early 0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:04.479 kind of you know, launch points of the Internet. Are 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.000 you still writing for that A O L front page 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:11.320 sports articles? I did that for a while. I don't 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:15.760 know quite how that ended. I don't really remember anymore. Um. 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:20.800 I also, yeah, I was freelancing for for all sorts 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:25.200 of different places. Um, I mean any I would write 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:26.840 from you know, like all those like f F on 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.439 book ever anything and do it would do a lot 0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:33.119 of Internet. I was a huge believer in the Internet. Um, 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:38.200 I was freelancing for um this website or even kind 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.639 of work for him. But for a little whilcome hoops 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:43.520 tv dot com, which is basically the N one mixtape. 0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:47.000 They created this basketball website where we basically could watch 0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:49.680 video of basketball on the Internet. It's a problem with 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:53.320 everyone at dial up and see our videos. No, it's 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:56.240 true because for people who don't remember, it was almost 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:58.600 impossible to watch a video on the Internet. Even the 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:02.920 load pictures would forever. So because everybody's working on the 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:05.880 slow speeds of the dial up Internet. So you're aware 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:07.920 of the rise of the Internet. At the same time, 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:09.760 you're not making that much money. I think you also 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:13.880 started the Moonlight in a in a casino, right, Well, 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.960 I was gonna get married. So at this point, I'm 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:19.680 you know, like kind of like twenty six or something. 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:24.200 I'm not making much money. I've written written soul Influence, 0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:27.959 but I needed like something steady, and so they were 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:32.240 opening casinos in Detroit. So I Uh. I was like, wow, 0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:34.119 if I get this, if I get a job at 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:37.879 a casino, like, it's very I needed a job that 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:40.920 I didn't have to take like the work home, and 0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:42.879 I didn't want to go back to work construction or 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:45.880 something that's exhausting, like not the casino feeling. It can't 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:49.000 be softening. But I just needed something like flexible hour, 0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:51.080 all this different stuff. So I went to the thing. 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:54.639 I went to. UM as the part story, it was 0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:57.720 called Greek Town Casino College. They're trying to trying to 0:27:57.800 --> 0:27:59.760 train the dealers, and they literally called it the Greek 0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:03.800 Town Casino College. They converted like part of a parking 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:07.040 garage in downtown Detroit where we would go and learn 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:09.399 how to deal. It's the uh the you know how 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.200 Pepper nine wins most scenic campugn Yes, yes, yes, this 0:28:13.400 --> 0:28:17.280 is the opposite of that, because exactly we should have 0:28:17.359 --> 0:28:21.720 been ranked laughs. Um yeah, And I majored in craps 0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:27.000 and blackjack double major. Um. Crabs is harder than we 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.439 can laugh. But craps is harder than it looks. Um. 0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:33.240 And yeah, I was. I was. I was a certified dealer. 0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:36.800 My casino didn't open. I never actually worked in the casino. 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:39.560 I did deal some other games and some parties and stuff, 0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:43.400 but the casino had some kind of like ownership shice 0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:45.880 the owners, so they delayed our owners and and then 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:48.840 by then I had gotten a full time job at 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.120 CBS Sports Line. Well, I want to get to never 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:53.240 actually worked. I want to get to that in a minute. 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:55.960 But how long did you train to be a craps 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.880 and uh and blackjack dealer? I don't know. I think 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:02.280 might have been like you might take like six weeks, 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:05.040 maybe eight weeks. I don't know. It's a quick quick college, 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:10.840 not not not a not too long than you think. Yeah, 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:16.240 I mean like I mean there's a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, 0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:18.040 they come and trying to trick you, all the guys 0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:20.400 like you have to guard your money. You can't be wrong. 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:26.960 Um yeah, blackjack not that tricky, but crafts is wild, man, 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:29.280 Like you get enough people on there, and they would 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:32.960 we were doing we would play and then while someone 0:29:33.120 --> 0:29:35.640 was trying to deal, and then like of course we're 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:38.280 just constantly trying to screw with everybody because that was 0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:40.400 what we were supposed to do. So it's like throwing 0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:44.280 bets in late or throwing like the worst possible odds 0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:47.440 bets like just you know at three coins, you know, 0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:50.800 three bucks on something like the odds are all messed 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:54.120 up for trying to steal money. So yeah, it's harder 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:57.280 than it looks. You said you also work construction, but 0:29:57.400 --> 0:29:59.240 you know when you were younger, what kind of construction 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:04.560 work did you do? Ah? We did like playing like 0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:08.960 sewage lines, and we weren't built a couple office parks 0:30:09.040 --> 0:30:12.840 things like that, like how like we put in the sidewalks. Um. 0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:15.680 I worked for the just a control the owner of it. 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:18.280 So we would do just about eight but a lot 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.640 of road work, a lot of a lot of jackhamhering, 0:30:21.640 --> 0:30:24.280 a lot of digging ditches. I mean nothing you know 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:27.240 as a as a high school college kids, So I 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:29.800 mean you can literally tell your kids now like you 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:33.680 worked as a dig ditcher. I did. I did dig ditches. 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:37.240 Yeah yeah, Firewood. I had also had a bad jobs. 0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:40.920 I could run a backhouse, I mean have a license, 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:42.800 but I couldn't do it. Yeah, I mean there's not 0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:44.880 very many probably sportswriters who can run a back oh 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:51.840 and also working craps couldn't and I probably could not 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:54.960 run the back home. Now I would probably screw it up, 0:30:55.160 --> 0:30:57.920 but at one point I could dig all with the backup. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:01.520 So you are preparing like for whatever you need to 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:04.040 do to have a consistent job, and then you've been 0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:05.840 talking about how you have like kind of you're you're 0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:08.360 paying attention to the rise of the internet. How do 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:11.440 you end up working at CBS sports Line which I 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:13.880 think was CBS dot sports line dot com if I'm 0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:17.240 not mistaken at the time it was yeah, or even 0:31:17.320 --> 0:31:19.320 just sports Line. Yeah, I think you might be. One 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:21.720 of the problems was I was like, so, I was 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:23.480 trying to get like a job in a newspaper, but 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:28.280 newspapers are different than like the first off, you could 0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:31.320 never tell a newspaper editor you worked like working in 0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:34.440 a moonlighting at the crafts dealer, like that would have 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:38.200 killed you, um, because they wanted like everyone to go 0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:43.840 to Northwestern and like Colombia and like you had. If 0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:46.680 you didn't have like all the right connections, it was 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:49.400 hard to break in. And I by working at them 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:51.920 like Basketball Times and Ivan when I worked at Shaba 0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:54.520 Tribute and I could get like everyone's interested and hired me. 0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:56.640 But once I left, they weren't interested and hired me anymore. 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.320 And you had to like just you couldn't tell people 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:02.200 like all that stuff with secret. I didn't tell people 0:32:02.240 --> 0:32:04.880 for years that. I was like I went to Casio College. 0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:08.000 Um now I just don't care. They can't do anything 0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:10.360 to me. Now it's no newspaper writers left. But at 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:12.760 the time it was all like I mean there was. 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:17.440 They were gatekeepers. They were gatekeepers to the access to Oh. 0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:19.600 I was on the wrong side of the gate man. 0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:22.920 I could not get through the gate. I couldn't get anything. 0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:26.560 So I was scrapping around for Internet and stuff like that. 0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:30.480 But one thing is I was I knew how I 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:33.880 knew how powerful the internet could be. And all I 0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:38.880 wanted was like a good Internet job. And I to 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:44.320 the credit of uh Sky, Steve Miller, Mark Swanson and 0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:47.440 the late Craig Stanky was his name. Um down at 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:51.400 sports Line. They did not care where I weren't. They 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:53.800 just wanted me. They were like this guy hustles and 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:56.440 he had tons of connections and like college and a 0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:59.880 basketball like I had every I knew every college stattt 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:02.480 a system in the country and every head coach pretty much. 0:33:02.800 --> 0:33:07.240 I all the different people and that they saw the 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:09.880 value in that, so they hired me to be uh 0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:12.800 national college basketball writer at sports Line, and they didn't 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.560 really care about all the you know, I didn't. I 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:18.080 didn't have the right this, that or the other thing, 0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:20.240 and that that was the big break or else I 0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:22.040 probably would not be doing this at all because I 0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:24.240 was like twenty years old, and it's like at some 0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:26.160 point you're like, all right, I mean it's a sports right, 0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:29.520 and it's actun s work by now, Like how long 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:32.080 do you go like this is not I'm not like 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:33.920 this is like I'm about to start my reson and 0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:36.280 see as a doctor, Like it's that's right, and I 0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:37.840 should be I should be able to make this work. Now. 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:40.680 If I'm not, I gotta get something else. It's interesting 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:43.480 you mentioned that because, to the credit of at least 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:46.240 two of those three guys, they got me started writing 0:33:46.840 --> 0:33:49.880 when I had no pedigree whatsoever either. I was writing 0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:52.120 on my own site and I wasn't even getting paid. 0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.000 They were just running my articles back in like two 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:58.120 thousand five ish. So we'll circle back around to that 0:33:58.200 --> 0:33:59.760 in a minute. But I do think it's an interesting 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:02.280 point for people out there listening, because this podcast is 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:05.719 called Wins and Losses. You kind of saw an advantage 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.640 because one reason you had an opportunity on the internet, 0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:10.600 and why I had an opportunity to tuning on the 0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:13.799 internet is because we didn't have that pedigree. Because if 0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:16.040 we had had that pedigree, we probably would have gone 0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:18.720 to newspapers and they would have hired us. The newspaper 0:34:18.800 --> 0:34:20.640 guys didn't want to go to the Internet yet, right 0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:22.560 Like they were like, oh, this Internet is a fad. 0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:24.719 You don't get paid as much money. I'm not sure 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:27.279 how it's gonna work out. It's not as part prestigious 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:30.080 to be writing on some random website. Like I even 0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:32.880 remember when I was writing at FanHouse, guys sitting around saying, like, 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:35.759 what's our circulation, like asking the editors, and they're like, well, 0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:37.239 I don't know. I mean the whole internet, you know, 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:40.720 like is anybody can go everywhere. But you had these ideas, 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.560 you had these different fiefdom so to speak, in newspapers 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:45.040 back in the day. And this is gonna sound an 0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:47.640 equated to a lot of our listeners, but you know, 0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:49.480 we kind of are on the tail edge of this 0:34:49.719 --> 0:34:52.439 where you and I can remember waking up early enough, 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:54.600 uh you know, you check a newspaper to see who 0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:57.920 won a game, right, Um, and now that's like crazy 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:02.080 to my kids. Yeah. Yeah, for the weather, the movie times, yeah, 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.840 movie times, playing at the movie theater, stuff like that. 0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:08.920 It was your access to all information. Yeah, and see 0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:12.279 what's playing. You had all these different islands of dominance. 0:35:12.480 --> 0:35:15.279 So and the the size of the newspaper was in 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:19.360 large large part a function of the marketplace itself of 0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:22.000 the city. So, like you mentioned the Chicago Tribune, but 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.960 you also had these newspapers competing in the markets, and 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:27.279 there was pretty good salaries to be made back in 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:29.240 the day. Right, if you were working in the eighties, 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:33.200 you can make a good living in the newspaper business. Well, 0:35:33.280 --> 0:35:36.080 I think you always good. I mean, and even if 0:35:36.120 --> 0:35:39.960 you still have a job in newspaper industry put unfortunately, 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:43.480 but all the way through, all the way up through 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:45.840 the nineties, things are going well, especially if you're a 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:48.920 good columnist everywhere else. So you get the job at 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:51.600 CBS Sports or sports line dot com or whatever it's called, 0:35:52.040 --> 0:35:54.439 and you're in your late twenties. And I remember reading 0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:56.120 this when I was in college. I remember reading your 0:35:56.200 --> 0:35:58.960 column because there still wasn't that many people out there 0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:03.200 writing regular, regular pieces on the internet, right, I mean, 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:06.000 it just wasn't that competitive, remember you, Andy Kats, Like 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:08.520 who did you compete with that was writing about college 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:10.760 basketball back in that day? Because I was at George 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:13.880 Washington University and we were pretty decent in college basketball 0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:15.680 and I always wanted to see the top twenty five 0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:19.040 every week. And like, I think they hired Dennis Dodd 0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:21.399 pretty early at sports Line. I mean he's obviously been 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:24.200 there forever, but like, who did you consider your competitors 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:25.880 on the internet at that point in time? Do you 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:30.400 remember Denna Dennis was at that, uh sports Line? And 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:33.200 who didn't mainly college football? And it was basically Andy 0:36:33.280 --> 0:36:36.839 Chats and I, yeah, was about it, and and then 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:39.440 there were all these newspaper guys. But the thing that 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.280 Andy and I and Andy event the friend Noe biby, 0:36:42.800 --> 0:36:44.680 But what was we talked about it? We still do 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:51.240 like we were like, okay, distinction, here's the thing. Every 0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:54.400 coach in the country can read this, yeah, right, like 0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:56.960 someone that they may have had to print it out, Okay, 0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:58.880 Like I don't think that Dean Smith is somebody who 0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:00.880 levels you know, these guys or on the internet. And 0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:04.960 he shutting. But it went to every went everywhere it 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:07.480 is amazing, right, you could read it anywhere. They had 0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:11.000 to even have mobile then, but the and and you 0:37:11.000 --> 0:37:12.799 could write as long as you wanted, and you could 0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.319 write as much as you wanted. So there was none 0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:18.440 of this like, well you can't fit it in, like 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:21.920 if you weren't working for you know, the Scholarks Tribune 0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:24.520 and some incident happened that U C l A or 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:26.800 whatever you may be, it halfly really big to make it. 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:29.520 We're just quite about everything. She is right right, right, 0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:31.680 right right, which, of course how the internet works. Put 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:34.000 back then it was like, gosh, i'll re stores you write, 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:36.239 and what do you like? But I didn't care because 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:39.279 I was just like, this is an unbelievable opportunity to 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:42.319 get known. And and then really quickly you could call 0:37:42.360 --> 0:37:44.400 anybody and they call you back. And when you have 0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:47.800 the access to it, to the coaches and then the 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.520 players and everybody, you know, it just it just blew 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.040 up really quick. And and so I don't know, I 0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:56.680 don't think I knew my traffic numbers back then, but 0:37:56.719 --> 0:38:00.200 I'm sure they're very good. But inside college basketball where 0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:04.239 I was writing, and and college administrators, they all knew. 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:06.600 Everybody knew who you were and so, but you would 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:08.400 still go to like the n s A basketball TOURNT 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:09.760 and they do like, well, we don't have a sheet 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.680 for you because your circulation is like they were so 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:14.680 hung up on the old school, like you couldn't get 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:18.160 into some places, and you feel like this is absurd. 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.960 Like I remember there was a conference that I think 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:23.960 it's called like the Midwest Collegiate Conference. It's now it 0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:27.239 kind of became the Horizon League. Like there was like 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:29.960 a lot of those like like Butler back in the 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:31.279 day might have been in it or something like that. 0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:33.520 I remember trying to go to the conference basketball team. 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:35.320 They wouldn't give me a sheet because I didn't have 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:39.239 a print publication along with the internet site. And I 0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:42.600 was like, are you great? And so it was like 0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:46.200 it was so you were fighting like that. But then 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:48.040 I could call any coach in the league and they 0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:50.719 called back and can men. So it's just there was 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.600 just this huge disconnect. So the internet was just static 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:57.239 aneral's reading it, and obviously they still do, but it 0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:00.080 was just like this whole wide open thing. And and 0:39:00.440 --> 0:39:02.920 like you said, like if this had gone to a 0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:05.560 full competition on who the best person was at the time, 0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:09.160 I probably wouldn't have gotten a job. So my advantage 0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:13.040 was I was like a hundred stories a week. Fox 0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:16.160 Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. 0:39:16.520 --> 0:39:19.399 Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:22.480 com and within the I Heart Radio app search f 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:27.200 s R to listen live. You would grind. But also, 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.200 and we're talking to Dan, what'sall on Clay Travis? This 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:32.080 is the Wins and Losses podcast. You recognize something that 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:35.000 I think a lot of people didn't, which is in 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:37.520 the past, and it still occurs. Right Like the local 0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:40.680 newspaper people are obsessed with what somebody in that local 0:39:40.760 --> 0:39:43.800 newspaper market rites. But a lot of times, and you 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.480 know this from from your experience, you can end up 0:39:46.480 --> 0:39:48.560 in a situation where there's not that much interesting to 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:51.200 write about in the local news market. But if you're 0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:54.160 writing about college basketball, there's pretty much always something that's 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:57.920 popping on a national level. And those guys also who 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:00.560 are reading you, both the coaches and administrators never everybody else, 0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:04.279 are curious about things outside of their own world. And 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:06.880 so you had almost you and Andy Katz a monopoly 0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:10.279 on the entirety of national college basketball coverage from a 0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:13.839 writing perspective, which theoretically a lot of other people could 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:15.600 have seen, but they didn't because they were may be 0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:19.960 worried about trying to protect what they already had. Yeah, 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:21.920 it's probably some of that, and then some of it 0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:24.200 would have been like, you know, you were gonna I 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:26.839 don't remember what I got paid. I was certainly getting 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:29.640 paid much better at that point, but it wasn't like 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:33.600 huge money. So it was like, those are good jobs, 0:40:33.760 --> 0:40:36.320 but yeah, people didn't want to take a pay cut 0:40:36.600 --> 0:40:39.800 or I don't know, it's very comfortable work. Those have 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:43.560 been around like a hundred years, right, you know, those 0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.000 are like good comfortable jobs. But yeah, the ability to 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.760 have an impact was much much greater on the Internet, 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:52.160 just not much much greater. Now. I want to go 0:40:52.320 --> 0:40:55.279 to the credentialing thing because I think it also establishes 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:57.880 the paradigm shift. And and I remember dealing with this 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:02.719 a lot writing online. Is they all of these schools 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:06.399 panicked when the Internet started, and they're like, oh my god, 0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:09.200 we're gonna have everybody who has a wet email address 0:41:09.320 --> 0:41:11.520 is going to be arguing they're a member of the media, 0:41:12.080 --> 0:41:16.080 and so uh, they will credential all these tiny newspapers, 0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:21.040 these little tiny community newspapers with no issues whatsoever because 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:23.960 quote unquote they are a print publication. But if you 0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:27.239 were on the Internet, you weren't allowed to be uh, 0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:31.680 to be credential. And I remember like all sorts of craziness, like, 0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:33.799 for instance, and I'll get to Yahoo, how you ended 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:36.520 up there in a sec. But Yahoo is a big deal, right, 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:40.799 like a massive, massive website. And the way they would 0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:44.800 credential Yahoo was or like CBS sports Line. I remember, 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:48.520 like CBS sports Line did a print publication one year 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:53.440 for like uh, college basketball or college football magazine, right, 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:56.280 And it's kind of a funny thing to think about anyway, 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.200 but I guess it was an advertising point for them, 0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:01.560 and they would credential the CB sports Line sometimes because 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.120 of that print magazine because they were already letting in 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:06.719 Athlon and Lindy's and all the other people who do 0:42:06.960 --> 0:42:10.120 the you know, yearly print publication. But that was crazy, right. 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:14.160 You fought those battles for years. It was unbelievable and 0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:18.080 trying to explain what you are arguing, um, And I 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:20.279 can tell you a million stories. The hardest one was 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:23.799 baseball MLB. But I got to Yahoo and I'm jumping 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.400 a little bit ahead, but holy cow, because they were 0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:29.400 so old school and they'd always say, well, are you 0:42:29.520 --> 0:42:32.400 in the Baseball Writers Association? Okay, so he've been this 0:42:32.480 --> 0:42:35.680 baseball right Association? Like no, well, I go, how do 0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:37.120 you get in that? Like where you have to cover 0:42:37.160 --> 0:42:38.920 a hundred and fifty games? I'll be like, well, I'm 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:42.920 the only guy at the website, Like I didn't want 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:45.840 to cover the World Series, right, like the NFL the NBA. 0:42:45.880 --> 0:42:47.560 Don't sit there and go, well were you at the 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:52.000 Sacramento Kings Timberwolves game? Yeah, be a final car that 0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:55.000 we want attention MLB. So one time I was a 0:42:55.080 --> 0:42:57.799 spring training I'm gonna spare this guy that's the name 0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:00.239 because he really isn't a bad guy. But this one 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:06.279 guy at the at the Mets says to me, you know, you, guys, 0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:09.120 here's what needs to happen at this time. Joah, who 0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:11.919 has probably had a had a it was worth about 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:14.120 fifty billion dollars okay, because you know ya who used 0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:17.680 to say and he goes, you guys need like the 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:20.600 Sporting News to buy you so you have a print publication, 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:25.160 And I go, how about we buy the Mets? What 0:43:25.320 --> 0:43:29.080 are you talking about I mean a fifty billion dollar 0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:32.560 market cap. Sporting News is worth like fifteen million dollars. 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:34.160 And he's thinking to I mean, it does kind of 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:37.200 speak to the difficulty that people had understanding the Internet 0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:41.040 that he's like, oh, Sporting News should buy Yahoo. Yeah, 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:44.160 who could buy every major League Baseball team. That's where 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:45.960 we could have done. Could have bought them all if 0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:49.359 they was for sale. You know, we're worth more than 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:52.080 the league. Yeah. I was like, okay, I don't even know. 0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:54.520 I was I'm not talking to a rational human being 0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:57.040 at this point, like they're just we're not speaking the 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.279 same language. He's back, I guess I'm not going to 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.360 spring train and of the Mets baseball would be absolute worst. 0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:06.400 And I hated covering baseball, and once I didn't have to, 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:09.800 I never covered it again. So you hated everyone in baseball. 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:14.200 You're at CBS. How many years do you write covering 0:44:14.239 --> 0:44:20.120 college basketball? I think it was like three? And then uh, 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.560 and then what happens? Yeah, and then what happens? So 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:26.560 then so a guy knew from college, Sam Silverstein calls me. 0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:29.960 He just became a sports editor of Yahoo Sports, which 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:33.080 at the time was like they had a fantasy game, 0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:37.160 but like they would just beinglike when need to get 0:44:37.200 --> 0:44:40.680 into original content, and he's like, you should come work here. 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.720 And I was like, now, at this point, at Yahoo 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:46.560 was a I didn't even know if the ad mayde 0:44:46.680 --> 0:44:49.480 had a fantasy game. Probably a fantasy game. But it 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:52.600 was a search engine. It was a search engine. That's all. 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:56.200 It was email and search. But they would put five 0:44:56.320 --> 0:45:00.399 headlines on the old Yahoo drunk page and he's like, dude, 0:45:00.680 --> 0:45:03.600 like these stories are incredible, We're gonna do this thing. 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:07.040 And I was like, I don't know. I was just 0:45:07.160 --> 0:45:10.440 like you know what this is, Like this could be 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:13.320 really big, right, like this this is like a startup, 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:16.160 but it's got fifty billion. It's a fifty billion dollar 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:19.040 startup that makes tons of parting. And we're like, no 0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:21.120 one's even gonna know whether we're not doing a good job, 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:23.440 Like we had time to try to like build this 0:45:23.560 --> 0:45:27.960 thing out. And so I switched from CBS Sports too 0:45:28.960 --> 0:45:32.479 Yahoo and everyone was like you're crazy. I mean, people 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:34.680 are like I like, that's a search engine, and that's 0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:38.120 why could never people understood like the CBS Sports thing. Eventually, 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:40.480 but the idea of the search engine wanted a media 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:44.400 path forget it, um, but I did that and then 0:45:44.440 --> 0:45:46.200 we had we had to like restart all the fights, 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:49.800 but the the traffic and a bout of people and 0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:52.759 all the all the assets we have, We're just incredible 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:56.360 and the opportunity to like, let's create a website. So 0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:58.560 were you the first Yeah, whoo's I mean they might 0:45:58.600 --> 0:46:00.840 have had Fantasy sports and Luis, but were you the 0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:04.200 first first sports writer? And probably I was the first 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:07.279 like journalist writer at all the whole place, like, no, 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:10.560 they didn't have moves, was just like an ATC dead nothing. 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:13.719 So what ye what year would this have been? Like 0:46:16.000 --> 0:46:18.960 two thousand three? Do you ask anybody to talk because 0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:21.800 two thousand three it's still really early days of the 0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:24.800 internet right there? Aren't you said people thought you were crazy? 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:28.799 Did you almost inherently just trust your instinct on that move? 0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:30.840 Or was there somebody you talked to other than the 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:32.800 guy who called you and said, hey, you know, we 0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:34.680 got huge sight traffic here, we want to make a 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:37.759 go of it. What made you you think willing to 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:44.440 take that risk that other people weren't. I remember talking 0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:48.560 to uh Adrian ward Strowski, who was working band at 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:50.759 like the Bergen record in New Jersey and is a 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:56.239 longtime friend of mine. Um long before the worlds bombs, Yes, 0:46:56.600 --> 0:47:04.000 um um. And I remember he thought he's a very 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:06.200 smart guy. And I remember he thought it was a 0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:10.000 pretty good idea and that that really helped. There's another 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:12.120 guy gave Scott, a longtime friend of mine, works at 0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:13.760 the US and he thought it was a good idea, 0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:16.560 and I knew. I just felt like, you know what, 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:20.719 what the heck, let's try this. Um. I kind of 0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:24.520 felt like, what's the worst thing that could happen? UM, 0:47:26.320 --> 0:47:28.080 I don't know. I just to me, it was like, 0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:31.279 there's so much potential here, and I was kind of 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:34.200 the other thing in two thousand three was like I 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:37.279 was covering college basketball at that point before the one 0:47:37.320 --> 0:47:41.040 and done, like the last year there was Lebron's senior 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:43.080 year in high school. I was like spent more time 0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:47.560 covering high Lebron like nobody was going to college, none 0:47:47.560 --> 0:47:49.800 of the players, and so college bess was like Lane. 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:52.160 I still a lot of fans, but it was like 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:54.520 this wasn't as interesting, Like I believe me, when they 0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:56.239 get rid of the one and done college that was 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:59.200 not gonna be remotely as big of a dealing now, 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:01.279 it's really not that big of a deal now, so 0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:03.200 I wanted to Like I thought like, well, if I 0:48:03.200 --> 0:48:06.040 can cover the NFL and I can cover baseball and 0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:08.120 n b A and we was in the Olympics, we 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:09.880 had all these plans. I was like, that would be 0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:11.759 a good opportunity for me to get out of just 0:48:11.880 --> 0:48:14.759 being a college fastival writer. So that was part of 0:48:14.800 --> 0:48:16.880 it too, because I kind of thought college basketball in 0:48:17.000 --> 0:48:19.719 trouble and like like back in the day they used 0:48:19.719 --> 0:48:22.879 to be like at least be great. Like tennis writers, Well, 0:48:23.280 --> 0:48:25.880 there's no job to be a tennis writer. So if 0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:28.200 you want to be a sportswriter in America, you better 0:48:28.280 --> 0:48:33.400 cover football or or the or the NBA. Like it 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:35.680 this a couple of baseball guys, but like Garris is 0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:37.879 in So that was a big part of it too, 0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:40.160 was like I'm gonna be able to spread out and 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:43.480 do different things if if this doesn't work at Yashop. 0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:45.279 But I really felt like if we did it right, 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:49.840 it would work. And Sam Um was super really smart 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:52.920 guy and a really good guys at the Path twelve 0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:54.960 now and Um we just kind of were like, I 0:48:55.000 --> 0:48:56.640 think we can make this work and so I was like, 0:48:56.719 --> 0:48:59.920 what the heck? Right, So sixteen years you've been at Yah. 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:02.399 Who sports now? And the people out there who think 0:49:02.480 --> 0:49:05.319 back at what Yahoo was like back in the day. 0:49:05.560 --> 0:49:08.960 I mean the amount of site traffic that Yahoo dot 0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:12.040 com would do, and that MSN dot com and a 0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:14.640 O L dot com and they still do, even though 0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:17.000 those three sites are not as popular now as they 0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:19.680 wore back then. I mean they were insanely popular. But 0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:23.000 you're talking about Yahoo in a pre Google universe, right, 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:24.880 Like I mean, I don't even think Google had been 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:27.759 founded yet hardly or is only a couple of years old. Um, 0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:31.160 So you go to Yahoo, what is your first Like 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:33.680 how do you even get started? You just start pitching 0:49:33.800 --> 0:49:41.600 ideas on stories? Like what is that process? Like, well, Bertally, yeah, 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:44.480 we're like we'd start writing store like we had to 0:49:44.520 --> 0:49:46.200 set up everything, and we had to set up a 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:49.440 news desk like comanitor Like it was just a lot 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:51.960 of planning and then we're trying to find people to 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:54.759 let you go cover things because that would give credibility. 0:49:54.880 --> 0:49:56.759 But then you could just you know, like anything like 0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:01.040 you know, NBA Free Agency or whatever, like whatever's going down. 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:04.120 I remember the US Open tennis I covered that. It 0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:05.879 was like one of the first things. It was like, yeah, 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:10.160 well you can come cover cover tennis tournament in New York. Um, 0:50:11.000 --> 0:50:13.719 there's a lot of like meeting and like we just 0:50:13.880 --> 0:50:15.920 we had to plot out what we're gonna do. I mean, 0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:18.680 it was it was it was a total startup we had, 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:20.719 but we had the opportunity to do or anything. So 0:50:20.840 --> 0:50:22.239 it was like what kind of sight do we want 0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:25.920 to be? How much journalism do we want to do? Um? 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:30.080 You know, eventually it was like what positions would we add? 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:34.719 The Mexical while Sam was really really smart guy and 0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:37.560 he was like, we're going to cover the Olympics, okay, 0:50:37.560 --> 0:50:41.640 and I seemed radical with one guy. And so he's 0:50:41.680 --> 0:50:44.600 like we're going You're going to the two thousand for Olympics. 0:50:44.640 --> 0:50:50.200 And he's like, the thing is it would spark all 0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:55.239 like all the people at Sonny Island in California would 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:58.200 be excited about the Olympics. And if we're covering the Olympics, 0:50:58.320 --> 0:51:00.960 it would like make an impact in turn renally, and 0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:03.360 then if we do a good job, that will create 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:07.560 like internal investment because like, yeah, who had all the 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:09.239 money so we could do anything you want. It. We 0:51:09.320 --> 0:51:12.280 just needed more, so we're gonna be better, like putting 0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:14.520 our eggs in that. So that was a big one 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:16.279 internally because when we did a good job at the 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:20.200 at the Athens Olympics UM and we would get selling 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:23.080 our stories on the front page and we're kind of 0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:26.879 building up the sports page that that that was kind 0:51:26.920 --> 0:51:28.759 of a cap for the first year and then there 0:51:28.840 --> 0:51:30.640 and then, like I think internally they're like, yeah, you 0:51:30.680 --> 0:51:33.279 can hire like a couple more people or want don't 0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:34.960 you try that? It grew a lot of things and 0:51:35.280 --> 0:51:38.480 it was very smart because I had never thought conceptually. 0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:40.439 I think it just wasn't in my wheelhouse to think 0:51:40.880 --> 0:51:44.120 like internal pr right, like how how are you being 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:48.399 seeing inside your company? Because a big company can can 0:51:48.480 --> 0:51:51.240 put their resources wherever. So that was kind of an 0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:54.480 interesting lesson that we still try to do. So you're 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:57.840 at the Athens Olympics, it's two thousand four, you're representing 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:00.920 Yahoo Sports. You're basically the only employee. How in the 0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:08.160 world you decide what to cover? Right? But I mean 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:10.480 for people out there who are listening, I think they 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:11.840 have this idea and I want to get into this 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:15.240 you a little bit more. But when when the story 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:18.040 is packaged for you, and you go and you read it, 0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:20.400 you think to yourself, oh, of course they went to 0:52:20.480 --> 0:52:24.440 go cover this. But effectively, when you arrive at the Olympics, 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:27.320 it's like you're given a huge menu, your one random 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:30.319 dude in Greece, and you've got to figure out, oh 0:52:30.400 --> 0:52:32.840 my god, what are the stories here? What am I 0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:35.160 gonna do on a day to day basis. It's not 0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:38.239 like there's some you're not NBC, right, who's putting on 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:40.960 the Olympics that has a thousand people there and they 0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:42.880 all sit around a table and they're like, oh, well, 0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:45.239 we know we're gonna cover gymnastics, and then we're gonna 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:46.840 do this, and then we're gonna Mean like they have 0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:50.040 everything mapped out, you know, a year in advance. I mean, 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:52.279 I know, Fox, for instance, has the Super Bowl this 0:52:52.440 --> 0:52:55.000 year coming up, and they're already you know, they've already 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:57.359 hired hundreds of people, they got their cameras and their 0:52:57.400 --> 0:53:00.239 sets already scheduled. I mean, you're a random dude just 0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:02.160 going over to Greece and you're like, yeah, I'm writing 0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:04.560 for this website that nobody knows. How do you decide 0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:09.959 how to cover the Olympics. Well, yeah, he's just trying 0:53:10.000 --> 0:53:12.719 to pick your spots, you know. And then if even 0:53:12.760 --> 0:53:14.960 if you're not, like if something big happen and you're 0:53:14.960 --> 0:53:18.000 not actually in the arena, you just right about it anyway. 0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:20.560 But yeah, it would be like there's a track need 0:53:20.640 --> 0:53:24.800 that dymastics need to swim me, there's basketball game, there's this. 0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:26.920 You know, you're just you're just trying to guess on 0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:30.320 what the best story is gonna be. Also, like what 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:33.360 can you do that you're going to differentiate? Like that 0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:36.720 was kind of a big thing, Like it's like value 0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:39.680 over replacement player, you know, like in in in uh 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:44.439 in baseball, Like what what can you do that will 0:53:44.600 --> 0:53:47.759 stand out and make it work you being there? So 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:51.720 sometimes it's not just being at the at the big event, 0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:55.239 it's it's being at the right place or where the 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:57.439 best story is or something like that. That was something 0:53:57.480 --> 0:54:00.680 I learned in the magazine. So it's like it's just 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:02.920 going to the biggest games doesn't always mean you're in 0:54:02.920 --> 0:54:04.799 the right spot. It's it's a lot easier to make 0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:07.320 an impact when no other not many reporters are around, 0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:10.040 and like being at the super Bowl, Like I love 0:54:10.120 --> 0:54:12.840 being at the super BOWLK like the challenge of competing 0:54:12.840 --> 0:54:16.480 as all the other writers, but like there's two thousand 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:20.200 people there, you know, So it's it's to to differentiate 0:54:20.280 --> 0:54:23.040 yourself as a real challenge. So sometimes you're better off 0:54:23.080 --> 0:54:26.200 at something else. Um, but I don't know, man, I 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:28.080 didn't know what I was doing. I didn't I was 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:30.480 not a very good column to stare back back then, 0:54:30.560 --> 0:54:32.360 I would try to read all the other guys that 0:54:32.960 --> 0:54:35.440 basically get my brains beating men every day. But you know, 0:54:35.880 --> 0:54:40.200 whatever we're trying. So I definitely like I never went 0:54:40.280 --> 0:54:43.040 to like the all the touristy spots. Everyone's like, did 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:44.440 you go there? I don't even know what all this 0:54:44.440 --> 0:54:48.000 stuff is in Grease, But I would now go to anything. 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:50.719 I literally went in nothing today eight I would once 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:53.720 it has worked. I was just like, so we were panicked. 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:55.359 We're like, we gotta make we gotta make this work. 0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:58.279 We run all the way to Grease. You mentioned that 0:54:58.440 --> 0:55:00.759 you didn't think you were very good, Um, you know, 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.680 initially on the columnist business and and and I probably 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:06.919 should ask this question earlier. I don't. I think there's 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:08.400 a lot of people out there listening to us right 0:55:08.400 --> 0:55:10.120 now that don't even spend that much time on the 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:12.719 distinction between news and opinion, right, and so much of 0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:15.879 it has gotten mixed up today that it's sometimes hard 0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:18.120 and you sometimes get confused. Even if you're just a 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:20.120 regular person. You're reading, you're like, wait a minute, is 0:55:20.200 --> 0:55:23.360 this a news article or is this somebody's opinion about 0:55:23.480 --> 0:55:25.520 the news? And I feel like there used to be 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:29.480 a more substantial difference. But you are hired to be 0:55:29.600 --> 0:55:32.320 in the opinion business right when you go to work Yahoo, 0:55:32.680 --> 0:55:35.000 but also when you're at the Olympics, you're also kind 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:37.120 of in the news business because if a big news 0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:40.080 story breaks out, that's something that people want to read about. Two, 0:55:40.719 --> 0:55:43.560 how did you straddle that line and how complicated was it? 0:55:43.719 --> 0:55:45.960 And were you thinking in your mind is this a 0:55:46.000 --> 0:55:48.320 news part piece or is this an opinion piece? Because 0:55:48.480 --> 0:55:50.560 I would imagine early on when you're at Yahoo, you 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:53.920 kind of have to fill every different aspect of the news, right, 0:55:53.960 --> 0:55:56.560 whether it's an opinion piece or just a straight you know, 0:55:56.680 --> 0:56:00.560 like something happened here and it's a news story. Well, 0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:02.759 I would try to write an opinion piece, but I 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:05.680 would probably just not trust my opinion, so make it 0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:08.360 too loosy so how do you come Yeah, so how 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:10.120 do you come to trust your opinion? How did you 0:56:10.239 --> 0:56:13.160 work through that to get more comfortable? Because I think 0:56:13.160 --> 0:56:16.720 you're the best national opinion writing writer in the business 0:56:16.760 --> 0:56:19.560 of sports now, But how did you find that voice 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:22.759 and how did you work your way into it? Yeah? 0:56:23.160 --> 0:56:26.400 Well thank you, but yeah, doing it and then reading 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:28.560 the other people, so like you know, you'd be there 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:33.239 and like Bill Platsky's a phenomenal, phenomenal sports columnists from 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:36.239 the l A Times, and you know, you'd be at 0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:38.680 the same thing and you just you'd read his the 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:40.600 next thing and to be like I got my asking 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:43.759 like why do I suck it right? This disaster right right? 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:46.520 And I was like why I didn't even think of this, 0:56:47.040 --> 0:56:50.040 Like I didn't trust it or I can't even remember, 0:56:50.160 --> 0:56:54.000 but you O'Connor, who might for care? I mean, I 0:56:54.080 --> 0:56:58.080 just everybody. I mean, that was when korn Heiser and 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:01.359 Will Bond were righting. I mean, Bob Ryan, like all 0:57:01.440 --> 0:57:03.120 these guys that are kind of all on TV now, 0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:07.640 older guys, those guys slaughter you, Dan Lebatar, Holy Cock 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:11.279 and LeBatard right a column um just phenomenal and and 0:57:11.320 --> 0:57:13.640 they just bank like in an hour, they just kill you. 0:57:13.800 --> 0:57:16.320 And it's just like my column is not anywhere as 0:57:16.360 --> 0:57:18.960 good as this. So he just you know what, guy 0:57:19.040 --> 0:57:21.840 could tug anything. He's got to keep doing it. You know, 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:24.920 what's that like ten thousand hour? You know, I'm glad, Well, 0:57:25.040 --> 0:57:29.000 you just I mean, there's just no he's gotta keep going. So, yeah, 0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:31.040 it's a little rough some of them days. But but 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:34.720 you know, there's so many swings that at the Olympics 0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:36.560 or anywhere anything you're trying to do, and you still 0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:39.040 always kind of I don't know, you just trust yourself 0:57:39.080 --> 0:57:41.920 a little bit and you you kind of just figure out, 0:57:42.080 --> 0:57:44.600 like what's truly interesting. I mean, I have some different 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:47.320 tricks I'd come up with. I always I always try 0:57:47.400 --> 0:57:50.880 to say, um, you know, like if if if I'm 0:57:50.960 --> 0:57:54.680 driving home from the assignment wherever I'm at, and somebody 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:56.680 calls me and my wife calls our friend go and 0:57:56.720 --> 0:58:00.920 they go, what happened at at at the game denying 0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:03.440 or the events or whatever, what you do today? And 0:58:03.520 --> 0:58:06.880 like it's the first thing I say, isn't the column 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:09.840 that I didn't write the right column? Because sometimes you 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:12.640 you know, I don't know, you just be like, wow, 0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:16.160 you wouldn't believe what you know, Kobe Bryant said after, 0:58:16.320 --> 0:58:18.960 but then you ended up writing about like some inbound players. 0:58:19.080 --> 0:58:20.560 I mean, you know, like what what you do. But 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:22.880 you see that a lot in sports writing or the 0:58:22.960 --> 0:58:24.600 other thing that really helped me. I had actually did 0:58:24.640 --> 0:58:26.920 a lot of talk radio. I had a talk radio 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:30.760 show briefly in Detroit, and that helps a lot. Talker 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:33.080 everyone makes on the talk radio, but you have to 0:58:33.120 --> 0:58:35.600 be on topic, and you have to figure out a 0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:37.880 topic that the listener wants to listen to or they 0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:41.240 aren't listening, like they are hitting that button in one second. 0:58:41.320 --> 0:58:44.400 And that's a big Talk radio was a big training 0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.600 ground too, because if you're on a bat, there's nothing 0:58:46.640 --> 0:58:48.960 worse than a segment on talk radio, a bad talpic. 0:58:49.120 --> 0:58:51.840 You just you can just feel all the people clicking away. 0:58:52.880 --> 0:58:55.880 I'm glad you mentioned that because I always tell people advice. 0:58:56.160 --> 0:58:58.880 You know, from a writing perspective, you do this too 0:58:59.160 --> 0:59:02.920 for writers. Go on radio every opportunity you get, because 0:59:03.000 --> 0:59:07.640 it will crystallize oftentimes your central thesis as you talk 0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:10.120 through it. Right. And also if you're if you're if 0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:12.800 you have a good ear, you can pick up on 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:16.440 what people care about. And I hear sometimes writers and 0:59:16.480 --> 0:59:18.840 they'll say, oh, I don't like to do radio, or 0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:20.360 I don't want to I don't make the time to 0:59:20.440 --> 0:59:23.600 do radio. And my argument is radio is basically an 0:59:23.600 --> 0:59:27.160 opportunity for you to advertise your audience and and create 0:59:27.240 --> 0:59:30.360 people who care what you think, whether it's written or spoken. 0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:32.960 And you've always done radio quite a bit, and I 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:36.440 think there is a certain element of writers who sometimes 0:59:36.520 --> 0:59:39.440 look down on radio. I've always argued you should use 0:59:39.560 --> 0:59:43.439 radio to lift your writing up even higher. Yeah, same 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:45.920 with like you know, I mean people make fun of 0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:47.840 like around the Horn and stuff like that or some 0:59:47.920 --> 0:59:51.920 of those goos. But it's like they're they're almost always 0:59:52.160 --> 0:59:55.760 really good on topic. Like I watch I don't watch 0:59:55.800 --> 0:59:58.880 a lot of TVs. It's not the live events that 0:59:58.960 --> 1:00:03.440 it's don't but sometimes and I'll watch, um, whatever Stephen 1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:05.840 as at First Take or whatever Stephen A. Smith show 1:00:05.960 --> 1:00:08.160 is on, Like they get right into their topics, like 1:00:08.320 --> 1:00:10.320 and they get right to it, and it's a good 1:00:10.600 --> 1:00:13.160 the A Smith was a good called sports columnists to 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:16.320 tell you that, Um, I don't think anyone like I 1:00:16.360 --> 1:00:18.120 don't know how many people even remember. I guess he 1:00:18.160 --> 1:00:19.480 reminds people every once a while, but he was a 1:00:19.520 --> 1:00:23.120 good sports column. Um my first metim was coming Temple basketball. 1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:25.680 Remember being like I'm gonna I'm gonna do this this 1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:28.880 and this is like he did at all Um, but 1:00:29.000 --> 1:00:31.360 that's a guy that worked hard. And but they get 1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:34.000 right on their voice really quick, and they get right 1:00:34.080 --> 1:00:36.440 they don't they don't do topics that you don't need 1:00:36.520 --> 1:00:40.880 to do, and so it's there's there's a trick to it, 1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:42.960 and and a lot of those shows are very good 1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:46.800 at it in big ways that maybe people don't. I don't. 1:00:46.840 --> 1:00:48.280 I mean, I don't know how many journals and students 1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:51.640 listen to this thing, but there's a people will look 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:54.880 down on that. Like Stephen A. Smith is loud and 1:00:55.040 --> 1:00:57.720 I'm highly entertaining. He's very very smart to get to 1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:00.360 right to the point and the point people listen to 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:02.880 the point. So what are we arguing about? Like, I 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:05.320 can't be Stephen A. Smith, but what he does is 1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:08.400 really good. Yeah, look, I think what you just hit 1:01:08.440 --> 1:01:10.600 on his key. I mean it's all about the story, right, 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:13.720 Like you have to find the stories that people care about, 1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:15.800 and then you have to have an opinion that people 1:01:15.880 --> 1:01:18.520 care about. So I'll give an example, and I've known 1:01:18.600 --> 1:01:20.960 you for I don't know a long time now, and 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:23.680 I think, honestly, you reached out to me for the 1:01:23.720 --> 1:01:25.800 first time when I was writing at CBS Sports. I 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:27.720 think you'd already gone to Yahoo and you're like, hey, 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:29.240 would you want to talk to Yahoo? And this has 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:32.480 probably been calve thirteen years ago now. In fact, I 1:01:32.600 --> 1:01:35.400 remember because it was when tennis Tennessee was playing. It 1:01:35.480 --> 1:01:38.000 was when Dixie Land Delight was coming out, uh, And 1:01:38.200 --> 1:01:39.880 I went out and talk to Yahoo. And we'll get 1:01:39.880 --> 1:01:42.360 to that in a minute, but I remember we were 1:01:42.480 --> 1:01:46.640 talking at the Alabama Notre Dame game and Katherine Webb. 1:01:46.680 --> 1:01:50.120 Alabama just blows out Notre Dame, right, and Katherine Webb 1:01:50.280 --> 1:01:54.360 goes up on the screen and immediately becomes the story 1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:57.440 of the game. You know, good looking girlfriend of of 1:01:57.680 --> 1:02:00.680 the quarterback who was uh, who's an aim is escaping 1:02:00.720 --> 1:02:04.240 me now, which is ridiculous because a J. McCarry Yes, 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:09.160 a J. Mccarroen, yeah. And so the game ends, everybody's swarming, 1:02:09.240 --> 1:02:13.760 Nick Sabe and everybody's swarming. Everybody's swarming, and you rush 1:02:13.880 --> 1:02:16.880 over to try to find Katherine Webb because you're like 1:02:17.040 --> 1:02:18.760 the thing that people are gonna want to read about 1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:23.320 in the column is what it was like for Katherine 1:02:23.360 --> 1:02:26.240 Webb to become an overnight sensation, right, like some people 1:02:26.280 --> 1:02:27.800 would have looked down on it and said, oh, you're 1:02:27.840 --> 1:02:30.040 there to cover the game. You were there to cover 1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:31.760 what you thought was the biggest story. And so you 1:02:31.880 --> 1:02:36.280 interviewed her, right, yeah, well Musburger remember Musburger was like 1:02:37.520 --> 1:02:44.680 kind of yes, so but you have to like I 1:02:44.720 --> 1:02:47.200 remember seeing you, like you were climbing up into the 1:02:47.360 --> 1:02:51.360 stands almost to try like everybody else. But I waved 1:02:51.400 --> 1:02:54.840 her down. She came down. Yeah. I waited for Karen 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:57.200 and he went over because he's gonna go like Hucker 1:02:57.280 --> 1:03:00.680 or whatever. Yeah. Right, so yeah, so I was like 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:03.000 I got the interviews Captaine Webb, and it was she said, 1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:07.160 like she she added eight Twitter followers like her phone 1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:09.880 blew up, right, yeah she could like Lebron James started 1:03:09.920 --> 1:03:11.600 following her, like I mean, it was it was a 1:03:11.680 --> 1:03:15.840 huge story. Yeah, And and she got an email every 1:03:15.960 --> 1:03:18.120 she had, like a notification she said to work. She 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:21.000 got an email every time a Twitter follower because she 1:03:21.080 --> 1:03:23.800 had like whatever, she's not any Twitter followers were going on. So, 1:03:24.480 --> 1:03:29.200 like you know, Jenny from so theology classes now far okay, right, Well, 1:03:29.520 --> 1:03:33.400 she's got so many emails. Her battery just died, so 1:03:33.960 --> 1:03:36.240 then they're trying to get word. She didn't quite know 1:03:36.400 --> 1:03:39.080 what it happened. She knew she'd been on TV, and 1:03:39.160 --> 1:03:41.160 I mean, look, she's like the beauty queen. She was 1:03:41.320 --> 1:03:45.640 not and this is not naive. Um it was funny. 1:03:45.640 --> 1:03:47.560 It was like three weeks later she was covering the 1:03:47.600 --> 1:03:52.000 Super Bowl for like extras. She got to the Super 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:54.920 Bowl quick, like you heard me the interviewed just three 1:03:55.000 --> 1:03:57.520 weeks ago. No one to hear you. Well, I just 1:03:57.560 --> 1:04:00.959 remember I just remember A. J. Mccarren's face when I said, 1:04:01.080 --> 1:04:02.560 like in the locker room matters. I'm like, you know, 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:05.440 Lebron James is following your girlfriend now, and he's like, 1:04:05.520 --> 1:04:09.080 he doesn't follow me, and yes, yeah, that's right, yes, 1:04:09.440 --> 1:04:13.000 And so I don't. So I get this tether webs nice, 1:04:13.040 --> 1:04:15.200 she's got these nice talents. So I go down. I 1:04:15.400 --> 1:04:19.240 talked to mccaren. Well, unfortunately the locker rooms open. It's 1:04:19.240 --> 1:04:21.200 the only game in college football you can actually talk 1:04:21.200 --> 1:04:23.320 to the players. College like college sports, tries to hide 1:04:23.320 --> 1:04:25.880 all their athletes. Terrible. These guys are great stories and 1:04:25.960 --> 1:04:28.000 there it's like good talk to the players. You know, 1:04:28.800 --> 1:04:31.480 uh that these three questions in front of the it's 1:04:31.680 --> 1:04:34.320 access of college football stinks. And then she has let 1:04:34.400 --> 1:04:36.120 these kids be kids because they're great and you and 1:04:36.200 --> 1:04:38.680 I are in there, but all the questions are always 1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:40.400 going to be the same at these things, like it's 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:41.880 just gonna be about the game, and I'm like, I 1:04:41.960 --> 1:04:45.120 want to ask him about his girlfriend becoming like globally 1:04:45.240 --> 1:04:48.040 like famous. He has no idea. He just won the title. 1:04:48.760 --> 1:04:51.040 And you were there and it was great because we 1:04:51.120 --> 1:04:53.120 were both asking them about it, and then we could 1:04:53.280 --> 1:04:55.840 bounce back and forth and they couldn't break in with 1:04:56.360 --> 1:04:58.800 third and four. Did you think? Yeah? You know? You 1:04:59.000 --> 1:05:00.800 you you know. I was like, god, they do they 1:05:00.880 --> 1:05:03.160 want fifty to zero or something? The game? It is horrible, 1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:05.240 but again everyone's got a job to do. But yeah, 1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:08.840 we both and you you go. Lebron James following companies 1:05:08.920 --> 1:05:14.720 like what. He was very naive. He had no idea. 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:17.960 And I remember his other funny line, well, I think 1:05:18.000 --> 1:05:20.000 we're gonna go. They were saying at the font with 1:05:20.080 --> 1:05:23.320 Blue Hotel and Miami goes um, I'm hungry. I hope 1:05:23.360 --> 1:05:25.680 they saw food or the place is still open back 1:05:25.720 --> 1:05:29.480 of the Yeah, yeah they never they never closed at 1:05:29.480 --> 1:05:31.880 the Fountain Blue. They haven't live nightclub is open to 1:05:32.000 --> 1:05:35.480 like six am. Yeah. Uh, the South to be Don 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:38.800 worry about it. So yeah, yeah, that was a big 1:05:38.880 --> 1:05:41.600 story the interview with But that's what you learned, right. 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:43.800 You get the trust of like screw and I'm not 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:48.000 covering the game and game stinks, you go wherever the 1:05:48.160 --> 1:05:49.880 story is. I remember you saying something. A couple of 1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:53.000 other examples, Uh, Jay Cutler. One of the first times 1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:56.280 that social media really starts to influence a game. Cutler 1:05:56.360 --> 1:05:59.520 pulls himself out of the game because of his knee 1:05:59.520 --> 1:06:02.160 injury the NFC Championship game. I think where they're playing, 1:06:02.240 --> 1:06:03.720 like the Packers. I can't even remember who they were 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:07.200 playing now. Uh, And he's injured on the sideline and 1:06:07.320 --> 1:06:10.440 all the NFL players start mouthing off about how he 1:06:10.520 --> 1:06:13.400 can't be that injured, and it turns into a story. 1:06:13.440 --> 1:06:16.640 And remember you saying afterwards what social media did was 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:20.520 it turns what used to be the second or third 1:06:20.600 --> 1:06:22.880 day story into the first day. In other words, it 1:06:22.920 --> 1:06:26.040 accelerates the cycle. So you go and talk to Jay Cutler. 1:06:26.080 --> 1:06:28.080 I remember in the post game and you say, hey, 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:30.640 did you see what guys are saying about you pulling 1:06:30.680 --> 1:06:32.600 yourself out of the game, And it was like Cutler 1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:35.200 had no idea because he'd been on the sideline and 1:06:35.320 --> 1:06:37.640 that's your story. It's not about what happened in the game. 1:06:37.760 --> 1:06:40.680 It's about Cutler coming out and the way people respond 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:43.880 to it, right, And I remember that one, Like, like 1:06:44.640 --> 1:06:47.040 until social media, they'd be like, what would you have 1:06:47.160 --> 1:06:48.600 to rank? First of you have to be able to 1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:51.040 get their numbers or have their numbers, and you have 1:06:51.120 --> 1:06:54.320 to randomly call up these athletes and be like, hey, 1:06:54.400 --> 1:06:57.440 if you have an opinion on on Jay Cutler right now? 1:06:57.560 --> 1:07:00.200 Like yes, you know some random cornerbacks for the jab 1:07:00.360 --> 1:07:03.040 Jabards or something that. No. So plus, if you call 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:04.840 up and go, hey, I want to interview about what 1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:07.200 you think, they won't say anything. But they're like drinking 1:07:07.280 --> 1:07:11.240 beers on their couch and they're firing off on social media. 1:07:11.400 --> 1:07:14.960 It's public. And now we cover social media all the 1:07:15.040 --> 1:07:18.000 time like it's it's this is it's a second world. 1:07:18.480 --> 1:07:21.960 Do you remember when that evolution happened from I'm in 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:24.520 the game to write about what happens in the game too, 1:07:24.800 --> 1:07:27.680 I've got to already kind of take the conversation beyond 1:07:28.120 --> 1:07:31.920 where what happened in the game to the next conversation 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:34.160 that people are gonna have because everybody's watching the game, 1:07:34.200 --> 1:07:36.680 and with social media, everybody's talking about the game. So 1:07:36.840 --> 1:07:39.120 your column has to be something different than what you 1:07:39.280 --> 1:07:41.600 just watched, or the takeaway has to be something larger. 1:07:43.240 --> 1:07:46.840 I think I've always been like, especially like a Super 1:07:46.880 --> 1:07:49.640 Bowl or any of it's always been like, well, why 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:54.640 am I here? Right? What access do I have? Um So, 1:07:54.920 --> 1:07:58.880 if I'm at the super Bowl, like a hundred and 1:07:59.040 --> 1:08:02.040 thirty million people watch the super Bowl and they have HDTV, 1:08:02.760 --> 1:08:06.120 They've got all the replays, I might not. Yeah, like 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:08.680 I'm at the press box, which is great, but it's 1:08:08.720 --> 1:08:10.560 used to like the worst seats in the whole stadium 1:08:11.120 --> 1:08:13.959 you don't have, like you just don't they know better, 1:08:14.240 --> 1:08:18.160 and like they know their teams better, Like just so, 1:08:18.320 --> 1:08:20.120 what can I do? Well? I can do something behind 1:08:20.160 --> 1:08:23.519 the scenes, where was it, like this happened? Or you 1:08:23.640 --> 1:08:25.679 may be zoom in on one play and then ask 1:08:25.720 --> 1:08:28.200 all the people what happened on the play? Or like 1:08:28.320 --> 1:08:32.120 you have to use your access. So I think I've 1:08:32.160 --> 1:08:33.880 always kind of had that where It's like I have 1:08:34.000 --> 1:08:37.160 to give them something other than just hey, uh yoh 1:08:37.240 --> 1:08:39.680 wow man, Tom Brady is great. They want of those 1:08:39.720 --> 1:08:42.160 Super Bowl like you know of course they did, or 1:08:43.200 --> 1:08:45.519 just just like I'm here to find a story, not 1:08:45.720 --> 1:08:48.479 just necessarily just be at the game. I think that's 1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:52.760 the biggest thing. Like I don't like I never really 1:08:52.840 --> 1:08:55.720 care what happens in the game. Nobody ever, people don't 1:08:55.760 --> 1:08:59.479 believe that, But I don't care. I don't like something 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:01.680 will happen. That's that's all it is. I don't care. 1:09:01.800 --> 1:09:06.160 Winds Uh, I don't really even care if it's close 1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:08.760 or not. Sometimes you do, but like, as long as 1:09:08.800 --> 1:09:11.599 there's something I can find on all right, be sure 1:09:11.640 --> 1:09:14.240 to catch live editions about Kicked the Coverage with Clay 1:09:14.280 --> 1:09:17.559 Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. 1:09:18.640 --> 1:09:20.599 I'll give you an example to you just mentioned Brady. 1:09:20.640 --> 1:09:22.599 I remember two of your columns that were so well 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:24.320 done from the Super Bowl, and we're talking to Dan 1:09:24.400 --> 1:09:27.639 what's so Yahoo Sports National columnists. I'm Clay Travis. You're 1:09:27.640 --> 1:09:30.400 listening to the Winds and Lost his podcast. You wrote 1:09:30.439 --> 1:09:34.720 a column about Giselle's reaction. I think when Brady lost, right, Um, 1:09:34.920 --> 1:09:38.160 and about just the humanity of that's just a guy 1:09:38.240 --> 1:09:40.080 who happens to have a girlfriend and they happened to 1:09:40.160 --> 1:09:44.240 be world famous, but how upset she was about just 1:09:44.360 --> 1:09:47.080 by what you could see in the tunnels underneath the stadium. 1:09:47.560 --> 1:09:51.760 Uh over that loss. And another one was Brady after 1:09:51.920 --> 1:09:54.080 they win. I guess this is the a f C 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:57.200 championship game. But after Brady, I think it was beats 1:09:57.240 --> 1:09:59.760 Patrick Mahomes, like he kind of snuck in the back 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:02.160 do word to go talk to Ma Homes after the game, 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:04.640 to kind of walk through after that overtime game. And 1:10:04.720 --> 1:10:06.360 I don't think I don't, at least I don't remember 1:10:06.400 --> 1:10:10.200 anybody else writing those. That's an example of taking advantage 1:10:10.240 --> 1:10:12.679 of being there, but also finding a way to find 1:10:12.800 --> 1:10:17.200 something that nobody else has, right, right, so I have 1:10:17.360 --> 1:10:20.280 the access, so use it. Right. So what happens on 1:10:20.360 --> 1:10:24.320 the field everybody saw, So that doesn't mean I don't 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:28.439 sometimes write about what happened in the field, But like 1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:31.880 I can't add to that conversation really that well. And 1:10:32.240 --> 1:10:34.479 I don't pretend I don't ever say I'm like an 1:10:34.520 --> 1:10:39.000 expert on the sports. Um like football is a very 1:10:39.040 --> 1:10:42.320 complicated game, and so for me to be like, oh 1:10:42.520 --> 1:10:45.640 he overthrew that receiver. Maybe the receiver random rob. I mean, 1:10:45.920 --> 1:10:49.040 there's so many things happened football, particularly, but so like, yeah, 1:10:49.080 --> 1:10:51.479 I followed Tom Brady after a Super Bowl offs like 1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:55.880 he was devastated, devastated, Like every one of those losses 1:10:55.960 --> 1:10:57.960 just guts those guys. I don't care how much money 1:10:58.000 --> 1:11:01.400 you got, beautifully, I says all that stuff like if 1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:04.439 you're a competitor, you are gutted. And he was gutted 1:11:04.479 --> 1:11:06.080 in that one and the Woolen balls. I was just 1:11:06.120 --> 1:11:09.599 stand there and he he said something to the security guy, 1:11:09.680 --> 1:11:11.080 and all of a sudden, this goes in the back 1:11:11.160 --> 1:11:13.080 doors his cheeks, and I'm like, what's up at that? 1:11:14.000 --> 1:11:15.679 And he comes out and I go in the locker 1:11:15.760 --> 1:11:17.559 room and I'm just and I asked the security guard. 1:11:17.600 --> 1:11:19.240 He said he wanted to know where the Holmes was. 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:23.840 Um security guys not allowed to talk, right, So then, uh, 1:11:24.080 --> 1:11:27.840 I just got the security guard in trouble, um random 1:11:28.000 --> 1:11:31.040 random person. And but anyway, I go up to us, 1:11:31.080 --> 1:11:32.639 did you go talk to my homes? And what you say? 1:11:32.640 --> 1:11:34.519 And he just gave me like one line where he 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:37.120 was kind of surprised. I do but at least that 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:39.080 you know, he's just like, guess I wanted to, you know, 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:40.840 tell him I didn't see him on the field or whatever. 1:11:40.960 --> 1:11:43.800 So yeah, like what can you get that? And then 1:11:43.920 --> 1:11:45.639 that was I thought it was a good column because 1:11:45.640 --> 1:11:48.559 it was like, you know, this young kid had played 1:11:48.840 --> 1:11:51.280 so well and it was like the old guy held 1:11:51.360 --> 1:11:53.520 him back. But it was like, I'm gonna go acknowledge 1:11:54.240 --> 1:11:56.240 that I know how much pain you're in, that you're 1:11:56.280 --> 1:11:58.600 really a hell of a player. And so yeah, like 1:11:58.720 --> 1:12:00.800 if you have to pay nine and you have to 1:12:00.880 --> 1:12:02.880 try to use your access the best the best to 1:12:02.960 --> 1:12:06.320 possibly can. Now what part of the job too, Like 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:09.719 that's the fun part to me, Like like finding stuff, 1:12:10.320 --> 1:12:12.680 finding a story that nobody else has told. Now, we 1:12:12.920 --> 1:12:14.960 think one thing that you I think have been on 1:12:15.040 --> 1:12:16.760 the vanguard of. I mean we've talked about the fact 1:12:16.800 --> 1:12:19.200 that you're on the vanguard of building Yahoo Sports and 1:12:19.400 --> 1:12:21.479 and making the decision to write online and all of 1:12:21.520 --> 1:12:25.560 those things. But you also will allow data and analytics 1:12:25.640 --> 1:12:28.320 to inform you an either confirming that you're on the 1:12:28.439 --> 1:12:31.280 right track in terms of writing about what people care about. 1:12:31.920 --> 1:12:33.880 Uh and and so I'm curious on that. Let me 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:35.439 give it a little bit of a background for people 1:12:35.479 --> 1:12:37.640 out there. Story goes up on the front page of 1:12:37.760 --> 1:12:40.920 Yahoo Sports, it's read by millions and millions of people. 1:12:41.120 --> 1:12:43.599 Right um, you know, there's a little tab for sports 1:12:43.880 --> 1:12:45.640 for people who are not familiar haven't spent a lot 1:12:45.680 --> 1:12:48.880 of time there, and those stories they'll rotate them through 1:12:48.960 --> 1:12:51.639 based on algorithm. They're the things that they think people 1:12:51.680 --> 1:12:53.320 are going to click on the most, right. The goal 1:12:53.439 --> 1:12:56.280 with everything on those pages is to write things that 1:12:56.439 --> 1:12:58.760 are clickable. And sometimes it will be a basic news 1:12:58.800 --> 1:13:00.400 story and I know you guys sometime times have a 1:13:00.520 --> 1:13:03.240 pee wires and stuff, but I'm always stunned by the 1:13:03.320 --> 1:13:06.120 number of writers who don't pay attention to what is 1:13:06.240 --> 1:13:09.080 read that they write. I've always been an analytics guy, 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:12.040 especially once I started out kicked. I'm gonna write about 1:13:12.120 --> 1:13:14.760 things that people care about. And sometimes I'll sit around 1:13:14.760 --> 1:13:16.519 and say, Okay, I could write that, but it's gonna 1:13:16.520 --> 1:13:18.559 be a tiny audience. And sometimes you make that decision 1:13:18.560 --> 1:13:21.599 because it's something that matters to you. But ultimately, if 1:13:21.640 --> 1:13:23.960 you are a sportswriter, to me, you're in the business 1:13:24.040 --> 1:13:26.840 of being read and you can use that data and 1:13:26.920 --> 1:13:30.040 that analytics to help either confirm you that people care 1:13:30.080 --> 1:13:32.920 about something or that they don't. And so I'm curious, 1:13:33.000 --> 1:13:35.280 when did you start paying attention to those numbers and 1:13:35.439 --> 1:13:38.200 start using them in some way to help guide you 1:13:38.320 --> 1:13:42.840 as to what the nation cared about? Really early, I 1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:45.160 mean because we had access to them. So I was like, 1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:49.080 I want to know. And my job is to bring 1:13:49.240 --> 1:13:53.840 people to Yahoo or keep them at Yahoo. That's my job. 1:13:54.560 --> 1:13:58.400 However I do that, so it's not I'm here to 1:13:58.560 --> 1:14:01.479 cover a game, it's not here to win an award, 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:04.519 it's not here to be friends with this. My job 1:14:04.640 --> 1:14:07.479 is to find people to bring the boyagra or keep 1:14:07.520 --> 1:14:11.920 them on there. And so what are they most interested in? Now, look, 1:14:12.000 --> 1:14:14.920 there is a there's a tipping point on that where 1:14:14.920 --> 1:14:19.320 we just become just nonsense. Right, So there you don't 1:14:20.000 --> 1:14:23.080 you have to balance that, but very quickly you probably 1:14:23.120 --> 1:14:26.120 doesn't need analytics. But you realize a lot more people 1:14:26.160 --> 1:14:29.639 are interested in Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings. Right, 1:14:30.080 --> 1:14:32.280 So it better be a hell of a story with 1:14:32.360 --> 1:14:35.479 the Sacramental King, dreight. Now I'm not I'm not right 1:14:35.520 --> 1:14:39.559 now covering the NBA because soccer. But let's take women's soccer. 1:14:39.760 --> 1:14:44.680 I'm gonna write about the Netherlands team, like they got 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:47.880 a star player on the Netherlands. What I'm right about 1:14:47.880 --> 1:14:51.559 Alex Morton a be crazy? Like so you know, those 1:14:51.600 --> 1:14:54.040 are the extremes. But if you really sense it and 1:14:54.160 --> 1:14:56.400 you see all the different stuff, you kind of figure out, 1:14:57.120 --> 1:14:59.200 uh some of it. So some of it is just 1:14:59.320 --> 1:15:01.920 like right, this are I mean, these are not in 1:15:02.000 --> 1:15:05.640 the general purposes, They're not not surprising, but there is 1:15:05.720 --> 1:15:07.519 times when people kind of seem to forget you, like, 1:15:07.840 --> 1:15:11.400 that's an interesting topic choice there, I'm gonna go with. 1:15:11.880 --> 1:15:13.639 I'm gonna go with the low hanging fruit. It's hard 1:15:13.680 --> 1:15:17.559 to get people to read. You get harder. Has there 1:15:17.600 --> 1:15:20.240 been a time where you've talk radio stuff too? Like 1:15:20.360 --> 1:15:23.679 you want to talk about talk radio or the ESPN 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:26.800 the Fox sports shows like US one shows like they 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:30.320 don't They're trying to keep people watching and that's why 1:15:30.360 --> 1:15:32.240 they go the same topic over and over, and I 1:15:32.320 --> 1:15:36.320 get why. I'm like listeners viewers get upset and like 1:15:36.360 --> 1:15:38.920 he's got always talking about Lebron James. But it's like, wow, 1:15:39.240 --> 1:15:42.320 not everyone watches for five hours a day, and so 1:15:43.560 --> 1:15:46.280 you know that's this is who they're interested in. It's 1:15:46.400 --> 1:15:49.080 it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, like your your job, 1:15:49.160 --> 1:15:50.760 your job. Can you say that again? Because I think 1:15:50.760 --> 1:15:53.080 it's interesting how many people have jobs and they don't 1:15:53.120 --> 1:15:56.120 ever really dissect what their job is. And it's interesting 1:15:56.160 --> 1:15:59.320 that you worked in construction where you know it's relatively easy, 1:15:59.400 --> 1:16:01.400 Like you have a screen job your day to your 1:16:01.479 --> 1:16:03.680 job today is to dig this ditch, right, like that's 1:16:03.720 --> 1:16:07.960 what you're supposed to do. Um and yeah, and and 1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:10.519 you know like even you know you said you you 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:13.599 trained to be a card dealer, right, Your job at 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:17.000 at blackjack is to deal the cards and not screw 1:16:17.160 --> 1:16:19.320 up and pay out things correctly. Same thing if you're 1:16:19.320 --> 1:16:22.840 playing craps. A lot of people I feel like they 1:16:24.479 --> 1:16:26.519 don't let anyone, don't let anybody steal the money, like 1:16:26.680 --> 1:16:29.559 they don't really know what their job is. It's amazing 1:16:29.600 --> 1:16:31.880 to me how many people have jobs and they have 1:16:31.960 --> 1:16:33.880 these amorphous jobs and like what do you do? Well, 1:16:33.920 --> 1:16:36.559 I kind of do this if you can't distill your 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:38.680 job down and you just distilled that you said your 1:16:38.760 --> 1:16:40.320 job is to either get people to come to the 1:16:40.400 --> 1:16:42.760 site or get them to stay longer. That really, I mean, 1:16:42.840 --> 1:16:46.759 that kind of sums up the internet, right, That sums 1:16:46.880 --> 1:16:50.160 up the all media. It's all media. That's it. What 1:16:50.360 --> 1:16:53.280 what am I doing? And what is the differentiator? So 1:16:53.800 --> 1:16:58.840 think about like a really good broadcaster, okay and you 1:16:58.960 --> 1:17:02.360 go okay, So take um Bon Skull his bond Scully 1:17:02.560 --> 1:17:06.000 with the great who's the great Dodger guy? Then no something, 1:17:06.280 --> 1:17:08.040 who's the guy that's retiring? I don't know. Let's pickup 1:17:08.040 --> 1:17:10.240 Monday Night Football or something like that. John what did 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:16.000 John Good? So, okay, I'm gonna watch great game, right, 1:17:16.200 --> 1:17:19.120 Packers Packers and the and the Bears are playing, and 1:17:19.160 --> 1:17:22.240 I want to watch the game. And then well the 1:17:22.360 --> 1:17:24.760 game's out of hand, but mad is entertaining me, so 1:17:24.880 --> 1:17:28.679 I stick through another quarter. That's John Madden, right, who's funny. 1:17:28.720 --> 1:17:32.439 That guy's funny. I'm gonna keep watching um or I 1:17:32.479 --> 1:17:34.920 don't know who's playing, but John maddens on Right. There 1:17:35.000 --> 1:17:36.800 was a time when Dick five cow was really that, 1:17:36.960 --> 1:17:39.280 Like it was a big basketball game, Dick five cows 1:17:39.360 --> 1:17:41.800 yelling he's got a college I watched this. What's going on? 1:17:41.920 --> 1:17:44.320 It's got go crazy? Right, I'm gonna watch that thing. 1:17:44.640 --> 1:17:47.240 So like if you just think what kets you to 1:17:47.360 --> 1:17:50.400 stay one more segment and or what draws you and 1:17:50.439 --> 1:17:52.559 now it's harder to draw him in. But when they're there, 1:17:52.600 --> 1:17:55.680 how do you keep them? So whatever that is, and 1:17:55.760 --> 1:17:58.400 that also that can be like don't be annoying or 1:17:58.880 --> 1:18:01.200 don't make someone. There's a lot goes into that, but 1:18:01.360 --> 1:18:03.519 that's that's media. But yeah, I would. I would always 1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:05.320 say to anyone who has a job and figure out 1:18:05.439 --> 1:18:07.639 what your job really is and even ask your boss 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:10.720 like why am I here? Like what? And it's at 1:18:10.960 --> 1:18:14.080 risky now because if you don't know why you're here, 1:18:14.120 --> 1:18:16.640 I'm gonna fire you. But it is. It is remarkable 1:18:16.680 --> 1:18:19.000 to me how many people have jobs and don't understand 1:18:19.160 --> 1:18:21.559 the basic question that you have to answer is why 1:18:21.600 --> 1:18:23.840 am I here? How do I make my job boss 1:18:23.880 --> 1:18:25.800 more money? And you know, like how do I do that? 1:18:25.920 --> 1:18:28.760 Like just basic blocking and tackling, I would say, of 1:18:28.960 --> 1:18:32.800 the show element of the job, then you better figure 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:36.920 out every day did I do that? But because if 1:18:36.960 --> 1:18:38.519 that seats in the back of your head and so 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:41.639 whatever your job is, it's like you know, I think 1:18:41.720 --> 1:18:44.160 like some of them are obvious, right, like shales. Right. 1:18:44.240 --> 1:18:46.000 For my job, I'm a car deal. My job is 1:18:46.120 --> 1:18:49.280 to sell a car. Okay, so did you do that today? 1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:52.120 But there's also other parts, right, So I don't know. 1:18:52.200 --> 1:18:53.600 I don't I don't know how to sell cars. So 1:18:54.840 --> 1:18:56.840 try it will help you do better at your job. 1:18:56.920 --> 1:19:00.400 If you know why you're here, and even your boss 1:19:00.439 --> 1:19:03.240 hasn't thought about it, you'll probably do the job really well. 1:19:03.479 --> 1:19:05.519 And so that's that's my job. So I don't always 1:19:05.560 --> 1:19:09.320 sit there and go almost My job is to write 1:19:09.640 --> 1:19:12.120 do this. It's not much. This is what I'm supposed 1:19:12.120 --> 1:19:14.080 to do. I don't know how how example that works. 1:19:14.160 --> 1:19:17.080 I don't know, but every day I gotta try to 1:19:17.120 --> 1:19:19.880 do that. Now, the concept of the podcast is wins 1:19:19.880 --> 1:19:22.120 and losses. And I mentioned earlier that you reached out. 1:19:22.200 --> 1:19:24.479 We met each other like eleven, twelve years ago, thirteen, 1:19:24.560 --> 1:19:27.160 whatever it was. I went out to interview at Yahoo. 1:19:27.560 --> 1:19:29.360 And so I'm trying to make a living as a 1:19:29.439 --> 1:19:33.400 writer online. I'm having some success at CBS UH, and 1:19:33.680 --> 1:19:35.360 you get me set up with an interview. I come 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:38.280 out to Santa Monica to the Yahoo offices. I spend 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:40.720 all day there. I think it goes pretty well. I'm like, 1:19:40.800 --> 1:19:42.280 you know what, I'd love to get this gig. I 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:44.320 think it would be pretty good. They give me some freedom, 1:19:44.640 --> 1:19:47.160 I'd get a you know, salary increase, the audience would 1:19:47.200 --> 1:19:50.479 be outstanding, and I don't get the job offer, right, 1:19:50.520 --> 1:19:52.240 I go out there and then they just kind of 1:19:52.320 --> 1:19:54.760 leave me hanging for a couple of months, and and 1:19:54.840 --> 1:19:56.959 I didn't get the job offer. And so I sometimes 1:19:57.080 --> 1:20:00.320 wonder what would have happened with my career where it 1:20:00.320 --> 1:20:03.040 would have gone, because at the time I wasn't I 1:20:03.080 --> 1:20:07.680 don't think doing radio yet, I hadn't certainly done television. Um, 1:20:07.960 --> 1:20:10.400 what would have happened if I had taken that Yahoo job? 1:20:10.880 --> 1:20:13.160 And sometimes, like you may know, the answer of why 1:20:13.160 --> 1:20:14.800 I didn't get the job, I haven't even asked. Its 1:20:14.880 --> 1:20:18.679 potentially good. I forgot you. I had forgot You've got 1:20:18.760 --> 1:20:21.920 out there. Yeah, I didn't know what to do with you. Yeah, 1:20:22.479 --> 1:20:25.240 I I went spent the entire spent the entire day 1:20:25.320 --> 1:20:28.200 talking to everybody at the Yahoo main offices in Santa Monica. 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:30.519 I thought you had reached out, and you've been like, hey, 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:32.680 we haven't really hired anybody who's kind of in the 1:20:32.960 --> 1:20:35.200 you know, zany irreverent. You know, at the time, I 1:20:35.320 --> 1:20:38.519 was writing hopefully humorous columns at CBS, like, I think 1:20:38.600 --> 1:20:40.519 we could find somebody in that. I think it makes 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:42.760 sense because you you were instrumental and I don't think 1:20:42.760 --> 1:20:45.080 you've even mentioned this, but you were the first hire 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:47.160 at yeah Who. You've talked about how you laid out 1:20:47.280 --> 1:20:50.479 the different uh, the different roles, but you also were 1:20:50.640 --> 1:20:54.360 incredibly instrumental in bringing in those early voices at Yahoo. 1:20:54.360 --> 1:20:59.679 I mean in many ways you helped to build it. Yeah, yeah, definitely, 1:21:00.000 --> 1:21:03.200 including a lot of people and and and the voice 1:21:03.280 --> 1:21:05.920 that exists for yeah Who Sports is in many ways, Uh, 1:21:06.080 --> 1:21:08.599 your ideas of whose good voices that could be, whether 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:11.240 it's Woad, whether it's Pat forty. I mean you have 1:21:11.360 --> 1:21:14.479 been Pete Damil over the years, very instrumental in the 1:21:14.520 --> 1:21:18.680 guys who have invest want to investigations. You want to 1:21:18.720 --> 1:21:22.880 be unencumbered. We wanted to tell we want to right 1:21:23.000 --> 1:21:25.559 right tough to tough columns like you know, we weren't 1:21:25.600 --> 1:21:29.439 just we'ren't afraid all the different things we've tried. We 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:31.840 could tons and tons of investigations for a long time. 1:21:31.920 --> 1:21:34.640 We still do. Um, yeah, like we're going to cover 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:37.439 all the uncomfortable things. Yeah, And I don't have the 1:21:38.160 --> 1:21:40.840 you don't have the encumbrances of their relationships at the time. 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:43.280 And so you talked about what your job is. You 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:46.000 also sometimes look your Yahoo Sports. You talked about the 1:21:46.040 --> 1:21:49.200 difficulty that you guys had sometimes getting credentialed, and a 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:51.320 lot of times I think in life people focus on 1:21:51.400 --> 1:21:54.840 the advantages they don't have, right, They focus on the disadvantages. 1:21:54.880 --> 1:21:56.439 They sit around and say, well, we can't do that 1:21:56.600 --> 1:21:58.640 because we don't have X, Y or Z. Do you 1:21:58.720 --> 1:22:01.160 remember like a moment where you thought, well, hey, we 1:22:01.240 --> 1:22:03.719 can be the independent voice the guys who are willing 1:22:03.760 --> 1:22:07.599 to write stories that others might not, and this gives 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:10.519 us an advantage because there's a market out here for 1:22:10.880 --> 1:22:13.440 the style of writing that we would do, for investigative 1:22:13.479 --> 1:22:16.240 pieces or whatnot. Did you have that as a lightbulb moment? 1:22:16.360 --> 1:22:19.200 Was it something gradual that happened. Were you cognizant of 1:22:19.240 --> 1:22:21.360 thinking about it even back in two thousand three when 1:22:21.400 --> 1:22:25.120 you went to Yahoo. No, we always I always knew 1:22:25.240 --> 1:22:27.400 that we would. I wanted to be a part of 1:22:27.479 --> 1:22:30.000 something like that. I didn't want to. The other thing 1:22:30.120 --> 1:22:32.080 is that, I mean it was good branding. If you 1:22:32.120 --> 1:22:34.519 want to get into that, I mean, can't you can't 1:22:34.560 --> 1:22:38.000 make investigative journalism and anything other than investigated journalism and 1:22:38.120 --> 1:22:40.840 just get the stories wrong. Um, like you can never 1:22:40.920 --> 1:22:43.559 be a crusade. It can never be like act because 1:22:43.560 --> 1:22:46.639 you're it'll be wrong because you'll miss, you'll be blinded, 1:22:47.120 --> 1:22:49.760 you'll walk into blind spot. So you can't do that. 1:22:50.040 --> 1:22:52.560 But you know, in a in a broader thing, like 1:22:52.800 --> 1:22:57.080 we have to become impossible to ignore. So you have 1:22:57.280 --> 1:23:00.759 these huge stories that no one else has, and particularly 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:05.559 early on, like you know, so Nevin Shapiro or um, 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:11.600 I don't know some of the other things stories, and 1:23:11.720 --> 1:23:14.240 we're gonna cover Aaron Hernandez and no one else is. 1:23:14.680 --> 1:23:17.639 We're gonna do stuff that and all the leagues. I mean, 1:23:17.720 --> 1:23:19.960 like the pr guy I used to get along pretty 1:23:20.000 --> 1:23:21.280 much at all, but at the beginning, it's like when 1:23:21.280 --> 1:23:24.120 they were paying a knack and like, you know, they 1:23:24.280 --> 1:23:25.920 joke and like, you know, like you guys are like 1:23:25.960 --> 1:23:28.160 a prince of darkness. Nobody you never call for any 1:23:28.280 --> 1:23:32.320 good God, that's not what we're gonna be. But you 1:23:32.800 --> 1:23:36.400 they know who you are, you know, So it's just 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.040 the way it is. Like I just like incredible, like 1:23:39.760 --> 1:23:43.200 fotball relationship with college sports, Like I love college sports, 1:23:43.320 --> 1:23:45.360 right and I actually love the scandals of college but 1:23:45.479 --> 1:23:47.519 I think the scandals of college sports are part of 1:23:47.560 --> 1:23:50.640 the fun of college sports. Like I do never think like, 1:23:51.200 --> 1:23:54.320 oh my god, everything's painted because it's a scandal. It's like, 1:23:54.520 --> 1:23:57.360 this is the funny part. I I used to always 1:23:57.360 --> 1:24:00.120 pay I have used an example sometimes, but when as 1:24:00.160 --> 1:24:01.960 a kid I watched I love the Boston Pars, love 1:24:02.000 --> 1:24:04.640 watching hockey, and they'd be a fight on at the 1:24:04.720 --> 1:24:08.240 game and and you know, to be awesome, and then 1:24:08.400 --> 1:24:10.280 I'd run to and then I get the next day 1:24:10.400 --> 1:24:13.000 like in the paper or the at the oh this 1:24:13.160 --> 1:24:15.320 game was marred by a bench clearing brown. And then 1:24:15.320 --> 1:24:17.200 I'd run the school and be like sixth grade and 1:24:17.240 --> 1:24:19.880 be like check see the parl at night right, Like, 1:24:22.000 --> 1:24:25.880 like dude, the Nevi and Saverio stories hysterical. The story 1:24:26.080 --> 1:24:29.400 was so entertaining, like it was nuts. It was completely nut, 1:24:29.479 --> 1:24:32.759 just like a billionaire ponte Steamer like funding the team, 1:24:32.920 --> 1:24:36.559 like totally crazy story, Like yeah, it stinks for Miami, 1:24:36.760 --> 1:24:40.320 but whatever they got back. None of these stuff ever sticks. 1:24:40.880 --> 1:24:43.479 But you know it's a bad story, like Larry Nasser, 1:24:43.640 --> 1:24:45.880 that's a bad story. There's nothing good at that. But 1:24:46.400 --> 1:24:49.000 you know, some of these scandal stories, they're just funny. 1:24:49.760 --> 1:24:52.360 And so it's like whatever. That's part of the part 1:24:52.400 --> 1:24:55.080 of the charm of the whole thing. So I'm curious 1:24:55.160 --> 1:24:58.200 when you have one of these big investigative pieces and 1:24:58.400 --> 1:25:01.080 you have worked I mean, for instance, Nevin Shapiro case, 1:25:01.160 --> 1:25:03.720 I mean, there's no telling how many hours, like you 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:05.879 guys put in I think it's you and Charles Robinson 1:25:05.960 --> 1:25:10.599 back in the Charles the most of it. Ton how 1:25:10.760 --> 1:25:15.000 much nervousness? Yeah, okay, So how much nervousness is there 1:25:15.200 --> 1:25:18.320 in the minute before you click publish and you know 1:25:18.479 --> 1:25:20.600 it's going to go out and everybody's about to see it. 1:25:21.280 --> 1:25:24.479 Because let me let me yeah, let me preference that again, 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:27.360 because you know, the era that we're in and have 1:25:27.520 --> 1:25:29.840 been in for a long time is a lot of 1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:33.160 times now people don't try and go after the whole story. 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:36.400 They try to find one little mistake and say, well, 1:25:36.479 --> 1:25:39.160 if this is not accurate, then maybe that means the 1:25:39.200 --> 1:25:41.720 whole thing is not accurate. Right, And it's almost impossible 1:25:41.760 --> 1:25:45.559 if you write five, six, seven thousand words about anything 1:25:46.000 --> 1:25:48.879 that every little detail is going to be ironed out perfectly, 1:25:48.960 --> 1:25:51.400 no matter how long you work on it. Right, So 1:25:51.840 --> 1:25:55.360 when I heard this cover? Yeah, when when when am 1:25:55.400 --> 1:25:58.559 I nervous, like for a week at least, leaping up 1:25:58.600 --> 1:26:02.639 to it like Samach is like terrified, have trouble sleep, 1:26:02.760 --> 1:26:06.160 terrified and what what are we missing? And we try 1:26:06.240 --> 1:26:09.839 to report backwards on the story report the other side. 1:26:10.600 --> 1:26:13.040 There's two things about what you want to do on 1:26:13.120 --> 1:26:15.160 any story. You want to be accurate and you want 1:26:15.160 --> 1:26:18.360 to be fair, because those are two different things. And 1:26:19.400 --> 1:26:22.840 you can be accurate and unfair. Um, and you can 1:26:22.880 --> 1:26:25.960 be I guess you can always be just inaccurate, so 1:26:26.400 --> 1:26:28.880 but you want to be fair awful. So it's like 1:26:29.000 --> 1:26:31.240 what am I missing? Like is it like you've got 1:26:31.280 --> 1:26:33.880 to write this story and be like you guys did 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:35.639 this and then they go, yeah, we did this because 1:26:35.680 --> 1:26:38.479 of that, and you're like, oh, right, right, So you 1:26:38.520 --> 1:26:41.479 don't want to I don't know, you just you you 1:26:41.760 --> 1:26:43.880 just you just spend so much time on it. So 1:26:43.960 --> 1:26:47.120 it's a meat grinder's just a meeting people and the 1:26:47.240 --> 1:26:50.640 problem is you're you're right. Like I've heard a prosecutors 1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:52.479 say this one time and I thought it was very 1:26:52.520 --> 1:26:55.800 good in a trial. I was like, this case is 1:26:55.960 --> 1:26:59.080 like a rope if one threat of the rope phrase 1:26:59.560 --> 1:27:01.720 and you don't believe one threat if the rope is 1:27:01.760 --> 1:27:05.280 still strong. It is not changed. Okay, so one little 1:27:05.360 --> 1:27:08.360 part of the defense makes sense. Doesn't mean there are 1:27:08.439 --> 1:27:10.599 two dead bodies over here or something like that, right, 1:27:10.640 --> 1:27:12.720 So it's like and so yeah, they'll try to find 1:27:12.800 --> 1:27:16.800 one little thing. And then there's really in nowadays, like 1:27:17.040 --> 1:27:20.080 there's basically state run media. There's these organizations that just 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:22.840 are like the websites are just and like there's always 1:27:22.920 --> 1:27:26.519 one there's always one guy who's either got a blog 1:27:26.680 --> 1:27:30.599 or a page or whatever. It's just like all he's 1:27:30.640 --> 1:27:32.880 there to do. His whole business is to defend the school. 1:27:33.040 --> 1:27:36.560 So like, no matter what the story is, they're just 1:27:36.640 --> 1:27:39.360 gonna be like it's not true, it's overblown. And where 1:27:39.360 --> 1:27:42.000 they're you know, defend. And then there's the attack. He 1:27:42.080 --> 1:27:43.920 who's kind of gotta that part you has got to 1:27:44.000 --> 1:27:48.800 deal with um. But like our track records phenomenal because 1:27:49.200 --> 1:27:51.240 we take it very, very seriously. But you have to 1:27:51.280 --> 1:27:53.560 be I've seen people do not know how to do 1:27:53.640 --> 1:27:57.360 investigative journalism. I've watched so many good reports blow up 1:27:57.439 --> 1:28:00.600 on dumb mistakes at a lot of the outlets, and 1:28:00.600 --> 1:28:02.640 it's really really hard to do and you have to 1:28:02.680 --> 1:28:05.599 be really really into it. Any good editors, you need 1:28:05.840 --> 1:28:09.880 cotent dedication. And half of them don't work because they 1:28:09.920 --> 1:28:12.719 aren't done right, even though they actually they actually are true. 1:28:12.880 --> 1:28:15.479 A lot of them are true. There's poorly done or 1:28:15.520 --> 1:28:17.880 they're not fair. Those are there's a lot, there's a 1:28:17.920 --> 1:28:22.559 lot there. So you've written a lot of stories over 1:28:22.640 --> 1:28:25.800 the years about quote unquote improper benefits or pay for 1:28:25.960 --> 1:28:28.800 play things like that. Do you have less of an 1:28:28.840 --> 1:28:31.920 appetite for writing those stories now than you might have 1:28:32.000 --> 1:28:38.280 a decade ago. Well, we nevern't really cared about I 1:28:38.320 --> 1:28:40.160 could write them. We could have done a million, like 1:28:40.640 --> 1:28:42.720 you know, point Guard somewhere gets the money. We were 1:28:42.760 --> 1:28:45.920 never into that. We decided at one point was the 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:49.639 n p A was really pretending that there were white 1:28:49.680 --> 1:28:51.720 hats and black hats, and they were using it to 1:28:51.880 --> 1:28:56.879 justify not paying the players and amateurism and avoiding taxes 1:28:56.920 --> 1:28:59.160 and stuff. So in other words, that there's guys who 1:28:59.280 --> 1:29:01.439 cheat and there's eyes who don't cheat, and there's a 1:29:01.560 --> 1:29:06.160 strong difference between the two. Yeah, Park is terrible. The 1:29:06.200 --> 1:29:08.240 rest of the guys are good, right, And it's like, 1:29:08.360 --> 1:29:10.760 give me a break, right, and I covered a I mean, 1:29:10.840 --> 1:29:13.280 I just forget it. Like this is just ridiculous. So 1:29:13.479 --> 1:29:15.519 we didn't have a stretch when he said we're just 1:29:15.560 --> 1:29:18.360 gonna blow everybody up like we're and we're gonna go 1:29:19.280 --> 1:29:21.920 big schools. We're not doing small schools like we're going 1:29:22.160 --> 1:29:25.599 we're gonna find stuff about whatever come up. But Ohio 1:29:25.760 --> 1:29:28.920 State and Oregon and you know, we went after Yukon 1:29:29.120 --> 1:29:32.599 and whatever. We had link care. But it was done 1:29:32.640 --> 1:29:35.599 with a purpose. It wasn't done to like we really 1:29:35.640 --> 1:29:37.840 almost never tried to get a player in trouble. It 1:29:37.960 --> 1:29:40.400 was to get the coach or the system in trouble. Now, 1:29:40.479 --> 1:29:46.479 there was some um, obviously there's some you know, players 1:29:46.520 --> 1:29:48.760 would get get in trouble or something like that, but 1:29:49.280 --> 1:29:51.519 it was like we've shown how bad it was and 1:29:51.600 --> 1:29:55.880 they did get rattled. They ended up passing the stipend rule. 1:29:55.960 --> 1:29:58.200 After the whole chaos that we had enough stuff that 1:29:58.240 --> 1:29:59.880 they convened a big thing and they ended up that 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:03.679 excite them. So all these players did, they didn't create something, 1:30:03.840 --> 1:30:05.920 but we don't. As we're getting criticized like, were you 1:30:05.960 --> 1:30:07.880 guys just trying to do the MCS work? But no, 1:30:08.280 --> 1:30:11.759 Anally hates us. We're blowing them apart because we're showing 1:30:11.840 --> 1:30:15.040 they're not doing anything, and they ended up changing and 1:30:15.120 --> 1:30:17.760 so there was there was like a grander motivation to 1:30:17.880 --> 1:30:19.760 it and just if I if we just want to 1:30:19.800 --> 1:30:23.240 go find out all Baskett player got something that doesn't. 1:30:23.360 --> 1:30:25.920 That's not that hard. You can do that, um, but 1:30:26.040 --> 1:30:28.639 we never wanted to be like but it's not about 1:30:29.920 --> 1:30:33.960 like we didn't want on Yukon basketball and like we didn't. 1:30:33.960 --> 1:30:35.960 It was not about like the poor kid that got 1:30:36.080 --> 1:30:39.559 some money, he deserves the money. It was like Jim 1:30:39.680 --> 1:30:45.040 Calhoun had his former manager student manager was now and 1:30:45.080 --> 1:30:47.640 he's used him to funnel the thing. Like like it 1:30:47.760 --> 1:30:49.640 was you know clear how they were doing it. And 1:30:49.640 --> 1:30:52.439 it's like this is how sophisticated the cheating in for 1:30:52.760 --> 1:30:56.000 like the whole college basketball scandal, which the said's bots, 1:30:56.160 --> 1:30:59.560 but it showed how sophisticated it was. It's not just 1:31:00.000 --> 1:31:01.840 now so let's all focus on the one kid that 1:31:01.960 --> 1:31:05.160 got a thousand bocks. It's like you gotta do this. 1:31:05.280 --> 1:31:08.920 The Nike likes funneling bads of cash tow players and 1:31:09.040 --> 1:31:11.080 the coach is going up to do it so surely 1:31:11.120 --> 1:31:13.680 exposed trying to expose what the whole system really is, 1:31:14.240 --> 1:31:16.760 which nobody wants to do. They want to just catch 1:31:16.800 --> 1:31:18.760 a bunch of speeders and ignore all the other things. 1:31:19.960 --> 1:31:21.880 What would you change if you if they came to 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:23.800 you tomorrow and they said, Dan Wetzo, you're now in 1:31:23.920 --> 1:31:25.519 charge of the n C double A. How would you 1:31:25.600 --> 1:31:30.360 change it? I just would let the players you get 1:31:30.400 --> 1:31:33.479 their name, image and likeness. I just I like, I'm 1:31:33.520 --> 1:31:35.439 a free market person. I just let the market go. 1:31:35.720 --> 1:31:37.479 If you can, if you can make some extra money, 1:31:37.520 --> 1:31:40.000 you get sponsored. People will said, I don't, it's gonna 1:31:40.000 --> 1:31:42.040 screw up concruding. I don't think it really will. I 1:31:42.040 --> 1:31:44.599 don't actually don't actually did a level of playing field. 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:49.639 This is actually yeah, but right right now it's all 1:31:49.640 --> 1:31:54.320 about the school keeping all the booster money. But I 1:31:54.360 --> 1:31:56.639 don't know, it's kind of complicated. But it was actually 1:31:56.680 --> 1:31:59.240 not complicated. This is what they did in the Olympics. 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:03.120 They just if you can, if you can get a commercial, 1:32:03.240 --> 1:32:04.560 or if someone wants to pay you to go to 1:32:04.640 --> 1:32:08.880 a school, someone wants to let me sign autographs, uh 1:32:09.240 --> 1:32:11.680 for thousand bucks or fox or whatever they want to do, 1:32:11.880 --> 1:32:14.040 go ahead and get it. Um, just get out of 1:32:14.080 --> 1:32:17.080 the way, let the kids make their money, and then uh, 1:32:17.200 --> 1:32:22.000 you know, the school isn't paying, But you're just you're 1:32:22.120 --> 1:32:24.480 no longer getting in the way of them. They're amateurs. 1:32:24.920 --> 1:32:26.920 Got to be able to make their money some other way. 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:30.400 So I was I do, and I think you saw 1:32:30.479 --> 1:32:34.280 them with all the problems. Fox Sports Radio has the 1:32:34.360 --> 1:32:37.240 best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of 1:32:37.320 --> 1:32:40.800 our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within 1:32:40.880 --> 1:32:43.320 the I Heart Radio app search f s R to 1:32:43.479 --> 1:32:48.479 listen live. We're talking to Dan Whatso Yahoo Sports national columnists. 1:32:48.479 --> 1:32:50.839 Another thing you've done in addition to being a national columnist. 1:32:50.920 --> 1:32:52.760 We mentioned that you have the new books that are 1:32:52.800 --> 1:32:57.320 out the biographies for UH for middle school students, and 1:32:57.439 --> 1:33:01.040 that's called the Epic Athletes series. Al Morgan, Steph Curry, 1:33:01.120 --> 1:33:04.240 Tom Brady, Serena Williams U those that be the first four. 1:33:04.760 --> 1:33:07.880 But you also wrote a book called Death of the BCS. Um. 1:33:08.400 --> 1:33:11.000 What how would you compare the writing of a book 1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:13.760 process to the writing of a column and which do 1:33:13.840 --> 1:33:20.240 you prefer more? A column you get done quick? Yeah, 1:33:21.080 --> 1:33:25.280 a long time. Death with BCS is very reporting heavy, 1:33:25.439 --> 1:33:28.880 a lot of documents. Um, you know, we I think 1:33:30.040 --> 1:33:32.320 we just wanted to show how all of the excuses 1:33:32.360 --> 1:33:36.600 were such nonsense. What a what a ridiculous entity the 1:33:36.720 --> 1:33:39.680 Bowl system is and the fact that they allow this thing, 1:33:39.800 --> 1:33:42.240 like you talk about ridiculous, like the n c A, 1:33:42.439 --> 1:33:47.760 Like you know, if a player gets you know, five dollars, Uh, 1:33:48.200 --> 1:33:50.360 there's a threat to amateurism. But if the head of 1:33:50.400 --> 1:33:54.000 the Sugar Bowl makes seven grand, it's like gouts our buddy, 1:33:54.120 --> 1:33:57.400 It's great, right, Like it's so I mean, it's so ridiculous. 1:33:58.120 --> 1:34:01.840 So that was the thought that was, like you we 1:34:02.360 --> 1:34:05.240 you know, everybody wanted the BCS gone or everyone nobody 1:34:05.520 --> 1:34:08.840 everyone hated the BCS. And I'm Josh Peter who worked 1:34:08.840 --> 1:34:11.200 in USA today now and I just will talking on 1:34:11.240 --> 1:34:13.560 the phone. I'm like, let's find out, like why this 1:34:13.720 --> 1:34:18.320 thing really exists? And like you know, no, no favors, no, 1:34:18.760 --> 1:34:21.400 like you know, the Bull directors all hated. Everybody hated 1:34:21.400 --> 1:34:24.360 me while it's writing that book, I mean everybody, we're 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:29.360 in everyone's toys and everything and bonuses, and like why 1:34:29.439 --> 1:34:31.840 does this really exist? Because nobody quite knew. There was 1:34:31.840 --> 1:34:33.639 no much spoken god, and we want to do all 1:34:33.720 --> 1:34:35.680 They wrote a bunch of stories. Anybody's turned into a 1:34:35.720 --> 1:34:37.920 book because it's easier to read in one spot. And 1:34:37.960 --> 1:34:41.080 I remember the very end of the book process. I 1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:43.400 flew down to Birmingham and I saw it Mike Slive 1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:45.840 if the SEC office is and I had all my 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:49.240 information and I'm like going through this stuff like well 1:34:49.280 --> 1:34:51.120 why do you allow this? And why that? And He's 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:53.960 sitting there going, well, what is this? What's you find 1:34:53.960 --> 1:34:56.800 out about this? Like like different stuff. He was a 1:34:56.880 --> 1:34:58.960 stunned about and I'm like, holy cow, like we really 1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:01.560 have a good book here. I remember he was. It 1:35:01.760 --> 1:35:04.920 was like I found some clause and like the fiestable 1:35:05.040 --> 1:35:09.320 contract where you're like like you had to buy certain 1:35:09.400 --> 1:35:11.559 rooms at a hotel, and then we found the fiesta 1:35:11.600 --> 1:35:14.200 bo was kicking the money back to the hotel and 1:35:14.439 --> 1:35:16.680 somebody had like a free wedding at a hotel that 1:35:16.840 --> 1:35:19.400 was in the Like there's so much graph going on 1:35:19.600 --> 1:35:21.479 and people just be like, I can't I didn't even 1:35:21.520 --> 1:35:23.439 know all this stuff, and it's like yeah, no, like 1:35:23.600 --> 1:35:26.920 literally nobody knows what's going on. Just it's all happening. 1:35:27.000 --> 1:35:29.799 So that was just a long and a long reporting 1:35:29.840 --> 1:35:33.759 process of a few years, and unfortunately I'm in the BCS. 1:35:33.800 --> 1:35:35.920 I don't think the problem is that people designed this 1:35:35.960 --> 1:35:38.760 playoff didn't want a playoff, so it's not really a 1:35:38.840 --> 1:35:42.639 very good playoff. Eventually, they'll get it right. We're talking 1:35:42.680 --> 1:35:45.880 to Dann what So, YEAHO sports national columnist. You. We 1:35:45.960 --> 1:35:48.800 were talking about different stories and the way they came about. 1:35:48.960 --> 1:35:51.679 You were in the room when I asked Tim Tebow 1:35:51.720 --> 1:35:53.760 if he was saving himself for marriage, and I think 1:35:53.840 --> 1:35:59.080 you turned it into a question Yahoo call him? But 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:02.599 what do you remember about that? And some people listening 1:36:02.640 --> 1:36:04.200 to this right now, it's been a it's been a 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:06.479 decade now, they may not even know that I was 1:36:06.560 --> 1:36:08.120 the person who asked. I mean, they kind of have 1:36:08.160 --> 1:36:11.559 a vague recollection of the Tim Tebow is a virgin story. 1:36:12.040 --> 1:36:14.320 But the reason why that became a story was because 1:36:14.360 --> 1:36:16.839 I asked Tim Tebow if he was saving himself for marriage, 1:36:17.160 --> 1:36:19.120 and it blew up into a huge story that's probably 1:36:19.160 --> 1:36:21.519 been what a decade ago. And you know, you'd go 1:36:21.600 --> 1:36:24.360 to the SEC media days and Tim Tebow was as 1:36:24.400 --> 1:36:26.800 close to a rock star as you could find back 1:36:26.840 --> 1:36:29.200 in the day. They were coming off of a national championship, 1:36:29.520 --> 1:36:32.839 he was a rising senior, and so I asked that question, 1:36:33.080 --> 1:36:35.559 and it's like, I mean, a neutron bomb goes off 1:36:35.720 --> 1:36:37.760 right now. Partly it's because it's July and there's not 1:36:37.840 --> 1:36:40.040 a lot of stories. And you know this, you were 1:36:40.040 --> 1:36:41.679 talking about how you're at the Super Bowl and there's 1:36:41.720 --> 1:36:44.160 nothing to write. Well, there's a thousand media members or 1:36:44.160 --> 1:36:46.760 whatever it is at the SEC media days and most 1:36:46.840 --> 1:36:49.160 of them are doing notes columns, you know, like, oh, 1:36:49.520 --> 1:36:51.799 you know Nick Saban said that he thinks his defensive 1:36:51.840 --> 1:36:53.800 tackle depth is gonna be better this year than it 1:36:53.920 --> 1:36:56.120 was last year. Are the l s U wide receiver 1:36:56.240 --> 1:36:58.320 is gonna be able to make play? Like really things 1:36:58.360 --> 1:37:01.439 that are very uh not very big stories, right, and 1:37:01.520 --> 1:37:03.680 then this thing goes and it goes off like a 1:37:03.760 --> 1:37:05.680 neutron bomb. And I remember it was right after I 1:37:05.760 --> 1:37:08.720 started Twitter, um, so that was one of the first 1:37:08.760 --> 1:37:10.840 times I saw social media really take off. So I 1:37:10.880 --> 1:37:12.960 think it was like, oh nine, like a decade ago. 1:37:13.439 --> 1:37:17.280 What do you remember about that all time great questions? 1:37:17.360 --> 1:37:21.120 All time whether the all time great questions? You wrote 1:37:21.160 --> 1:37:25.320 a column asking the questions. Apparently you said you were 1:37:25.320 --> 1:37:27.920 going to ask the questions. So then we were down 1:37:27.960 --> 1:37:29.479 there and You're like, I'm gonna ask the questions. So 1:37:29.760 --> 1:37:31.840 I'm about missing this right, this is gonna be great. 1:37:32.280 --> 1:37:36.360 So like it's a great question, it's a great question. 1:37:36.840 --> 1:37:39.639 And I always I'm literally on a different thing I'm 1:37:39.640 --> 1:37:41.280 dealing with, like right now, like I want to ask 1:37:41.400 --> 1:37:45.600 one question. I always I hate asking questions at press conferences. 1:37:45.600 --> 1:37:46.760 And that's the problem. You have to ask you that 1:37:46.840 --> 1:37:50.120 a press conference because it's uncomfortable for everybody. But this 1:37:50.280 --> 1:37:53.040 is probably trying to limit you. And there's so many 1:37:53.080 --> 1:37:55.679 times like I don't need an exclusive interview to sit down. 1:37:56.200 --> 1:37:59.000 The people who sit down for interviews, the interviews are terrible. 1:37:59.120 --> 1:38:01.960 They always twenty five minutes on crap. Like all I 1:38:02.040 --> 1:38:04.519 need is one question. I have one question, answer that 1:38:04.680 --> 1:38:07.120 we're done. Um. If I could do that on every 1:38:07.120 --> 1:38:09.160 assignment would be good. I got and I've done it 1:38:09.240 --> 1:38:11.720 with people. I remember doing one with Mick Saban once 1:38:11.720 --> 1:38:15.120 after SEC title game. I asked, um, I asked him. 1:38:15.160 --> 1:38:16.760 I'm like, I just always want to ask this one 1:38:16.840 --> 1:38:19.000 question to him. They're like, all right, go bring him over. 1:38:19.720 --> 1:38:21.880 It was great. Um, but on that one, I remember, 1:38:21.920 --> 1:38:24.400 so you're gonna do it. So it wasn't the main room, 1:38:24.479 --> 1:38:26.320 like I don't think they gave it a mike. It 1:38:26.439 --> 1:38:28.360 was like a side room and you asked. But here's 1:38:28.400 --> 1:38:32.120 the thing, everyone ripped you. I mean you got torched. Yes, yes, 1:38:32.360 --> 1:38:36.040 for like the whole week. Whole week. Yeah, still I 1:38:36.160 --> 1:38:38.200 still get I still get rid of like a million. 1:38:38.320 --> 1:38:41.599 I remember like Dennis Dodd was like, are you gonna ask? 1:38:41.880 --> 1:38:44.479 I don't remember. I don't remember, And later we talked 1:38:44.520 --> 1:38:46.280 about it, so I like Dennis, but it was like, 1:38:46.439 --> 1:38:48.679 are you gonna ask? You know, like it was something 1:38:48.720 --> 1:38:50.559 like you canna ask Les Miles if he has an 1:38:50.680 --> 1:38:53.240 STD And I remember thinking, like, the really funny thing 1:38:53.640 --> 1:38:55.200 and I might be it might not have been that 1:38:55.320 --> 1:38:57.640 exact line, but that was in his column something like that, 1:38:57.800 --> 1:39:00.280 and I remember thinking like, hey, I'm thinking the net today. 1:39:00.280 --> 1:39:02.559 It would have been amazing to stand up and be like, hey, 1:39:02.800 --> 1:39:05.559 Les Miles, Clay Travis, Dennis Dodd wanted me to ask 1:39:05.640 --> 1:39:07.120 you if you have her pies, you know, like just 1:39:07.280 --> 1:39:10.439 to see the room, just like erupt him, like because 1:39:10.640 --> 1:39:13.479 you get if you've ever been in those rooms that, yeah, 1:39:13.479 --> 1:39:15.080 if you've ever been in those rooms. Most of the 1:39:15.200 --> 1:39:17.599 questions are not very interesting and most people don't care 1:39:17.600 --> 1:39:22.479 about the answer the answers right, so almost immediately right 1:39:22.960 --> 1:39:25.800 and by the way, everybody was so upset about me 1:39:25.840 --> 1:39:28.599 asking the question, what did everybody write their whole next 1:39:28.680 --> 1:39:30.559 day call ups about it was all about whether Tim 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:35.040 Deebo is a virgin or not. Right, So here's the thing. 1:39:35.200 --> 1:39:37.600 People will put this on the record because there's got 1:39:37.680 --> 1:39:40.320 to be a video. But as I recall it, Tebow 1:39:40.479 --> 1:39:43.760 everyone laughed and people goes, it's nothing. I get that. 1:39:43.880 --> 1:39:47.040 I get asked that every time I talked to kids. Yeah, 1:39:47.160 --> 1:39:49.639 he said something like that, like every time I speak, 1:39:50.160 --> 1:39:53.280 I put up and they go, do you have any questions? 1:39:53.320 --> 1:39:55.840 And someone goes, are you like, what's up with this? 1:39:56.080 --> 1:39:58.240 Like are you really a virgin or something like that, 1:39:58.479 --> 1:40:03.439 and he had no. He's the most unflappable, like he's 1:40:03.439 --> 1:40:07.720 a fantastic guy, and you know it's like he yeah, 1:40:07.760 --> 1:40:09.479 he had no problem with it. He was like happy 1:40:09.520 --> 1:40:14.320 to answer it. Oh and looks like ten years later, 1:40:14.400 --> 1:40:16.400 people are still like, Jim is a virgin. I'm like 1:40:17.000 --> 1:40:18.760 that a question was a long time ago. I don't know, 1:40:18.880 --> 1:40:22.680 he's still yeah. You know what was interesting too, was, um, 1:40:22.880 --> 1:40:25.559 I maybe felt more comfortable with the question because growing 1:40:25.640 --> 1:40:29.080 up in the South, if you were saving yourself for marriage, 1:40:29.560 --> 1:40:31.519 it was something that you would brag about, right, like 1:40:31.560 --> 1:40:34.160 you would wear a promise ring if you were really serious. 1:40:34.280 --> 1:40:36.479 Like at that point in time, it was something that 1:40:36.680 --> 1:40:41.000 in the evangelical faith was a very common point of discussion, 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:44.040 the promise keepers, like all this different stuff surrounding it. 1:40:44.120 --> 1:40:46.479 So I didn't think he would be bothered by the question, 1:40:46.880 --> 1:40:50.519 But I also thought it helped to define who he was, Right, 1:40:50.600 --> 1:40:53.080 this is this guy who's on an SEC campus that 1:40:53.240 --> 1:40:57.200 probably gets swarmed by girls, not probably, certainly gets swarmed 1:40:57.280 --> 1:41:01.080 by girls everywhere he goes, and he is so religious 1:41:01.120 --> 1:41:03.800 that he's still, you know, abstaining from having sex, which 1:41:04.160 --> 1:41:07.200 ninety nine point nine percent of men I would imagine 1:41:07.280 --> 1:41:10.479 in that situation probably do not make that decision, right, 1:41:10.520 --> 1:41:12.880 So I thought it defined him in a really interesting way. 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:17.960 But I remember that feeling of like that story blowing up, 1:41:18.040 --> 1:41:19.720 and look, it's happened to me a two or three 1:41:19.800 --> 1:41:22.640 different times since then, but that was the first. Oh 1:41:22.720 --> 1:41:25.280 my god, like, this is the number one story in 1:41:25.360 --> 1:41:28.400 the of the day, and it wouldn't be, uh, you know, 1:41:28.439 --> 1:41:30.920 it wouldn't exist without me having been involved in some way. 1:41:30.960 --> 1:41:34.120 And the same thing happened obviously with CNN with you know, 1:41:34.240 --> 1:41:36.639 First Amendment and boobs, except on an even bigger scale, 1:41:36.680 --> 1:41:39.000 because that wasn't just a sport that wasn't just a 1:41:39.080 --> 1:41:41.800 sports story, right, But you kind of get comfortable. And 1:41:41.840 --> 1:41:44.559 then I had the DeMarcus Cousins like He'll get arrested 1:41:44.600 --> 1:41:46.560 in five years tweet that was like a decade or 1:41:46.800 --> 1:41:49.160 or five years old or whatever. And so at some point, 1:41:49.320 --> 1:41:52.120 like you kind of just get used to, Yeah, when 1:41:52.160 --> 1:41:54.720 the social media age, like are you know you just 1:41:54.800 --> 1:41:56.840 kind of get used to suddenly, Like I go into 1:41:56.880 --> 1:41:59.479 Twitter and I've got, you know, a billion messages and 1:41:59.520 --> 1:42:03.200 I'm like, what happened? You know? Like and I remember 1:42:03.200 --> 1:42:05.920 having this conversation with with Cow heard about like, uh, 1:42:06.120 --> 1:42:08.639 you know, Debo Sweeney comes out and he's like calling 1:42:08.720 --> 1:42:10.840 Cow wouldn't know he didn't even know his name, Like 1:42:10.960 --> 1:42:13.400 I hope he learned something by the way our team performed. 1:42:13.640 --> 1:42:15.639 And people are like, oh, Devo, you know he really 1:42:15.720 --> 1:42:18.599 got on cow Herd. And I'm like, in our business, 1:42:18.960 --> 1:42:21.360 the coach of a postgame press conference who just won 1:42:21.400 --> 1:42:24.240 a national championship calling you out by name is the 1:42:24.360 --> 1:42:26.680 greatest thing that could ever happen to your career, right, 1:42:26.760 --> 1:42:28.280 Like people are like, oh my god, how are you 1:42:28.320 --> 1:42:30.000 ever going to recover from this? I'm like, are you 1:42:30.120 --> 1:42:31.800 kidding me? It? Reminds me remember back in the day 1:42:31.840 --> 1:42:34.519 with Michael Moore did the Fahrenheit nine eleven and they 1:42:34.600 --> 1:42:37.719 like showed him on the JumboTron at at the Republican 1:42:37.840 --> 1:42:40.639 National Convention and like he waves everybody and he turns 1:42:40.640 --> 1:42:42.120 to the guy next to him and he says, I 1:42:42.240 --> 1:42:44.720 just made another million dollars because they're all booing him, 1:42:45.040 --> 1:42:47.200 and it's like the greatest advertisement he could have ever 1:42:47.320 --> 1:42:50.560 had for his UH, for his UH, for his documentary. 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:52.840 And that's in some ways what we do. But you 1:42:53.040 --> 1:42:54.720 you saw it. I mean it was like, you know, 1:42:54.840 --> 1:42:57.200 like pure bedlam in the in the in the aftermath. 1:42:58.680 --> 1:43:02.160 But it's the thing you you you deal list great information, 1:43:02.280 --> 1:43:04.680 which is your job. Stories. It's one of the most 1:43:04.720 --> 1:43:07.760 famous things known about Tim Tebow, and it may be 1:43:07.880 --> 1:43:10.559 the most famous question ever asked at SEC media days. 1:43:10.600 --> 1:43:14.160 I'm not sure that there's a clause the fairer way, 1:43:14.680 --> 1:43:17.080 but you're encumbered because you're like, I want to ask 1:43:17.160 --> 1:43:19.280 him one question. Yeah, And this is my one of 1:43:19.360 --> 1:43:22.439 my problem medias. They won't let you talk to them directly, 1:43:23.160 --> 1:43:25.160 but then they have they do sit down for interviews 1:43:25.200 --> 1:43:28.200 that are almost all terrible. Like the interviews aren't any good. 1:43:28.280 --> 1:43:30.439 So it's like, but that's sometimes you see really good 1:43:30.479 --> 1:43:33.519 stuff like, um, one of my colleagues of Yahoo, Chris Haynes, 1:43:33.560 --> 1:43:36.719 does a podcast with NBA players, Like it's it's great. 1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:39.760 They really talked to him and he gets great information 1:43:39.920 --> 1:43:42.960 from them, um because he just he has a great 1:43:43.040 --> 1:43:45.439 rapport with him. It's a really good podcast. And sometimes 1:43:45.479 --> 1:43:48.080 you can just get like just you know, I just 1:43:48.160 --> 1:43:51.080 thought that was just a tremendous Uh. It was. It 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:54.040 was a great question. Um, I'm trying to think of 1:43:54.080 --> 1:43:55.920 another one. I was just gonna say I wanted to 1:43:55.960 --> 1:43:59.719 ask or I asked once. Oh it was yeah, actually 1:43:59.760 --> 1:44:01.400 not that get a story. It was just like the 1:44:01.479 --> 1:44:04.880 old Michigan State bas football coach John L. Smith came 1:44:04.920 --> 1:44:07.559 on our radio show at Detroit. I asked him like, hey, 1:44:07.680 --> 1:44:11.040 this guy's got this wednsite fire John L. Smith dot 1:44:11.080 --> 1:44:14.120 com or something like don't like having a guy at 1:44:14.160 --> 1:44:17.040 a website saying like fucking He got so mad and 1:44:17.080 --> 1:44:19.080 everyone got mad at me for asking in the Michigan 1:44:19.120 --> 1:44:22.080 State and I'm like I was wondering, like I didn't 1:44:22.080 --> 1:44:23.920 say you should be fired, but like it's got to 1:44:23.960 --> 1:44:26.479 be kind of odd, right, But like they don't want 1:44:26.720 --> 1:44:30.360 real questions, and so it's just as weird. It's just weird. 1:44:31.280 --> 1:44:33.519 I've probably always have been weird the media. But like, 1:44:33.680 --> 1:44:37.840 we know lots about the athletes through filter of Instagram, 1:44:37.960 --> 1:44:40.560 but you can't actually ask him anything. And it's a 1:44:40.640 --> 1:44:42.680 tough thing. Was it's a tough question to asking a 1:44:42.680 --> 1:44:45.559 press office to tebow. The t Bow handled it perfectly. 1:44:45.760 --> 1:44:47.840 Most players would have struggled with that. T Bow is 1:44:47.840 --> 1:44:50.639 just amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think Tibo will eventually 1:44:50.760 --> 1:44:52.879 run for political office. I mean that's been my prediction. 1:44:52.960 --> 1:44:55.120 He'll go down to Florida and he'll get elected governor 1:44:55.640 --> 1:44:57.600 or senator if he decides he wants to do it, 1:44:57.920 --> 1:45:00.040 and it went, I mean, he'll win running away. I 1:45:00.120 --> 1:45:02.280 think I imagine he'll run as a Republican. I don't 1:45:02.320 --> 1:45:04.400 really know a lot about his politics, but I don't know. 1:45:04.479 --> 1:45:06.160 I think he's one of those guys that it doesn't 1:45:06.200 --> 1:45:08.760 really matter what party he runs for, Like he will 1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:13.240 have a ton of response. So one thing that you 1:45:13.240 --> 1:45:15.360 you have always done well and I think it gets 1:45:15.439 --> 1:45:17.760 underrated and I keep hit hammering on this, and I 1:45:17.840 --> 1:45:20.240 know you've got a couple of young daughters, but I've 1:45:20.280 --> 1:45:23.120 got you know, the Three Boys, and I focus a 1:45:23.200 --> 1:45:27.519 ton on trying to praise their effort more than their 1:45:28.000 --> 1:45:30.320 more than the results. And and that's sometimes for a 1:45:30.360 --> 1:45:32.360 lot of people out there listening. I think there's a 1:45:32.400 --> 1:45:36.600 big difference. Like, you can't control, uh, your talent. You 1:45:36.680 --> 1:45:41.240 can't control necessarily what skills you have in any particular universe. 1:45:41.640 --> 1:45:44.920 What you can control is your effort. And what I 1:45:45.040 --> 1:45:47.920 have admired about you for a long time is your 1:45:48.040 --> 1:45:52.320 effort is insanely high. You write more words and more 1:45:52.439 --> 1:45:56.600 columns than almost anybody out there. Do you attribute that 1:45:56.720 --> 1:45:59.880 to just a work ethic? Um? You know, I think 1:46:00.000 --> 1:46:01.960 there's two different kinds of people in in in in 1:46:02.080 --> 1:46:05.519 our industry at large, right, I think there's people who think, like, oh, 1:46:06.120 --> 1:46:08.600 I need a stroke of brilliance. I'll say writers. You know, 1:46:08.720 --> 1:46:10.360 there's the writer out there who's like, I need a 1:46:10.439 --> 1:46:13.400 stroke of brilliance. I need something to motivate me in 1:46:13.560 --> 1:46:15.960 order to write something. And then there's other people. And 1:46:15.960 --> 1:46:18.240 I would put myself in this category of what I 1:46:18.360 --> 1:46:21.479 do is produce words, right, That's my job. So if 1:46:21.560 --> 1:46:24.760 I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my job. 1:46:24.800 --> 1:46:27.360 I don't feel good about it. You could easily write 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:29.880 a lot less columns than you do. What do you 1:46:29.960 --> 1:46:33.240 attribute your work ethic to, not the work result, but 1:46:33.400 --> 1:46:36.080 your work ethic to being up there and grinding as 1:46:36.160 --> 1:46:41.000 much as you do? UM, well, thank you. This is 1:46:41.080 --> 1:46:48.880 like the nicest podcast, like UM trying to get there 1:46:48.960 --> 1:46:51.800 it wasn't easy. Then when you get a good job, 1:46:51.880 --> 1:46:53.479 I don't want to give it up. I've always we're 1:46:53.479 --> 1:46:56.200 alwayn fighting like the yahoos, ton advantagers and things like that, 1:46:56.800 --> 1:46:59.600 but we didn't always, And then you're still trying to 1:46:59.640 --> 1:47:02.120 stay on top. People want your job. There's too much 1:47:02.160 --> 1:47:04.759 to lose. And I got the family and a mortgage 1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:07.519 and all that, all of them. But pride is basic 1:47:07.640 --> 1:47:10.479 pride and and uh and and liking it. It's funny 1:47:10.520 --> 1:47:12.280 how you said it, like I put out words like 1:47:12.320 --> 1:47:16.160 I said this to the journalism class recently, like you know, 1:47:16.280 --> 1:47:18.760 some of you guys like my favorite I like to 1:47:18.880 --> 1:47:21.760 write in the early evening with a you know, a 1:47:21.880 --> 1:47:26.920 half calf mocachina. I'm like, no, right, there's the deal. 1:47:26.960 --> 1:47:30.040 System is writer's block. I'm a writer. Like when I 1:47:30.160 --> 1:47:34.040 when I dug ditches, there's no dig ditching ditch digging. 1:47:34.400 --> 1:47:37.800 There's lots of mythologizing of writing. It's a job. Do it. 1:47:38.840 --> 1:47:40.519 It's a job. You go. If you're gonna do it 1:47:40.560 --> 1:47:42.479 as a job, you better do it. There's no like 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:45.000 I just can't. I don't not believe me. I struggle 1:47:45.040 --> 1:47:48.519 at times. It's not easy. But the number I tell 1:47:48.560 --> 1:47:51.240 people to the number one skill in writing is concentration. 1:47:52.040 --> 1:47:54.680 Like I can really concentrate, and I don't know how, 1:47:54.800 --> 1:47:56.200 and I don't want to know how I can do it, 1:47:56.600 --> 1:48:00.200 but I can concentrate. And if you can concentrate, can 1:48:00.320 --> 1:48:02.800 write really quickly. I mean, get all this stuff out, 1:48:02.840 --> 1:48:05.920 because I have written stories in subway cars, on top 1:48:05.960 --> 1:48:10.439 of garbage cans and see on busses, point whatever. Right, 1:48:10.560 --> 1:48:13.240 Like you'll, I'm a journalist. You can't just be like 1:48:13.320 --> 1:48:15.680 I'll now retired to the coffee shop and get my 1:48:15.800 --> 1:48:18.320 box together. That's not the kind of journalist I am. 1:48:18.439 --> 1:48:21.200 Like you know, I was covering the French in the 1:48:21.240 --> 1:48:23.760 world cover of friends, like a hundred twelve degrees. It's 1:48:23.760 --> 1:48:26.880 like a sweating I mean, it's just miserable, like it 1:48:26.920 --> 1:48:31.240 doesn't matter write the story. So um, there's sort of 1:48:31.320 --> 1:48:33.320 this an element of that too, and I kind of agree, 1:48:33.439 --> 1:48:36.120 like you can't. You can't go on your radio show 1:48:36.160 --> 1:48:39.680 and be like you can't speak right now. I just can't. Like, no, 1:48:40.160 --> 1:48:42.200 this is what I do. I signed up for this job. 1:48:42.720 --> 1:48:45.360 You better do it. So I don't like the works, 1:48:45.400 --> 1:48:47.960 though I like the challenge of finding stories and writing 1:48:48.000 --> 1:48:52.200 stories and reporting stories, thinking stories, doing it the whole thing. 1:48:52.280 --> 1:48:55.320 I mean, I still really enjoy it. So Bill that 1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:57.320 in like, I got a great job. I'm not gonna 1:48:57.400 --> 1:48:59.360 let I'm not gonna give it out because I just 1:48:59.520 --> 1:49:03.040 like I'm easy, good God to be stupid. One thing 1:49:03.240 --> 1:49:06.280 nothing else I can do. One thing you've also done 1:49:06.520 --> 1:49:09.040 is we talked about how to know where the story is? 1:49:09.600 --> 1:49:12.240 What are things are people going to care about? You 1:49:12.680 --> 1:49:16.200 have covered more, I think than anybody else in sports trials, 1:49:16.840 --> 1:49:20.080 whether it's the Aaron Hernandez murder trial, whether it is 1:49:20.160 --> 1:49:21.960 I mean like you know, like it can be a 1:49:22.040 --> 1:49:24.840 high school you know, like a rape case. It can 1:49:24.880 --> 1:49:29.080 be the you know, the the Larry Nasser awfulness that happened, 1:49:29.320 --> 1:49:33.719 the Joe Paterno situation. What is it about those stories 1:49:33.880 --> 1:49:37.479 which are certainly sports related, but they're also in a 1:49:37.600 --> 1:49:43.840 courtroom that you think you have gravitated towards well they 1:49:43.960 --> 1:49:47.320 usually I mean the usually big serious subjects which i'm 1:49:47.520 --> 1:49:50.800 I don't like, I'm I don't. I think I said 1:49:50.840 --> 1:49:52.519 a few times like I don't care if I'm at 1:49:52.520 --> 1:49:55.400 a game, like I never sometimes I don't end up 1:49:55.400 --> 1:49:58.280 at a game like I've covered like every great game, 1:49:58.400 --> 1:50:00.960 but like I didn't. I don't think I went to 1:50:01.040 --> 1:50:04.680 the National Football Championship this year. Um say, I'm sure 1:50:04.720 --> 1:50:08.160 I'm didn't. Right. No, I don't like people you miss No, 1:50:08.400 --> 1:50:10.240 don't miss it at all, Like I don't like I 1:50:10.280 --> 1:50:12.479 don't leave it there. I'm not there, be fine if 1:50:12.520 --> 1:50:16.720 I'm not there. Um So, But a trial, So a 1:50:16.800 --> 1:50:20.120 trial is dramatic. It's a big story. Like I like 1:50:20.280 --> 1:50:23.960 big serious stories more than just I was at some 1:50:24.160 --> 1:50:27.800 game or at some stadium. Um. Sports to me is 1:50:27.880 --> 1:50:30.479 more about like just the backdrop of all these different 1:50:30.680 --> 1:50:34.679 all the different mayhem that it creates. So the trials 1:50:34.680 --> 1:50:37.400 are good. Covering a trial is always interesting, and they 1:50:37.479 --> 1:50:41.080 just you know, I mean, the stuff that gets said, 1:50:41.120 --> 1:50:44.240 the things that happened are usually very dramatic. Um. And 1:50:44.320 --> 1:50:47.040 then there's definitely an audience because there's a true crime 1:50:47.200 --> 1:50:50.080 element where people follow these things like I just did 1:50:50.200 --> 1:50:54.360 telling Winslow that they don't, but they aren't into the 1:50:54.439 --> 1:50:56.720 sports part. So you get a sports audience, and then 1:50:56.760 --> 1:50:59.880 you also get the true crime and true crime audiences 1:51:00.040 --> 1:51:03.920 like herding out there. Because you know, if you you 1:51:03.960 --> 1:51:08.160 can remember a day before Donald Trump renowned for president, 1:51:08.280 --> 1:51:12.640 like CNN, Fox, MS, they used to cover trials and 1:51:12.720 --> 1:51:15.439 I'm not just talking like Nancy Grace, like Bill O'Reilly 1:51:15.479 --> 1:51:19.320 and all those guys. Like it was like uh, Scott, 1:51:19.600 --> 1:51:23.200 Lacy Peterson and and and Jodi Arius and all these 1:51:23.320 --> 1:51:26.760 like random like some random person would get murdered and 1:51:26.760 --> 1:51:28.680 it would become a big national trial, would be on 1:51:28.800 --> 1:51:32.280 all the TV networks every single night. And so there 1:51:32.400 --> 1:51:34.880 was this huge audience for these trials. And then all 1:51:34.880 --> 1:51:38.760 of a sudden, all those networks and now one politics, 1:51:39.439 --> 1:51:41.599 they don't cover anything other than politics and the maybe 1:51:41.680 --> 1:51:47.160 like an occasional hurricane, so where bodies go, there's not 1:51:47.320 --> 1:51:50.719 People stopped being interested in murders podcast. I mean, obviously 1:51:50.880 --> 1:51:53.080 some people would say they're listening to, you know, the podcast, 1:51:53.200 --> 1:51:56.000 true true crime podcast, but yeah, you're right, it used 1:51:56.040 --> 1:51:58.160 to be. It used to be a obsession because you 1:51:58.240 --> 1:52:00.960 have the natural drama, you have the certainty, you have 1:52:01.120 --> 1:52:04.679 the competing stories. I mean, it is an intense level 1:52:04.920 --> 1:52:09.479 of dramatic conflict and not very much in the world 1:52:09.520 --> 1:52:13.280 of sports. Do I think they get covered? No, almost 1:52:13.320 --> 1:52:17.599 nobody goes. Almost nobody goes. And so yeah, I mean 1:52:17.640 --> 1:52:19.599 that's another one, like how can I make an impact 1:52:20.439 --> 1:52:23.800 at my job? Right? Like what's my value over the 1:52:23.920 --> 1:52:25.640 other guy? And so it's like, yeah, I'm here, and 1:52:26.160 --> 1:52:29.599 we get massive traffic on those trials, like huge, Um, 1:52:29.800 --> 1:52:32.400 it will be dramatic if they're very challenging. You're there 1:52:32.560 --> 1:52:36.479 like eight hours, you um complicated. So and then it 1:52:36.520 --> 1:52:38.920 speaks to the difficulty, like the skill of being able 1:52:38.960 --> 1:52:41.680 to figure out because in an eight hour trial day, 1:52:41.880 --> 1:52:44.080 what was the story of the day? Right? You have 1:52:44.200 --> 1:52:46.559 to trust your instincts in order to write the story 1:52:46.640 --> 1:52:48.640 that makes sense of eight hours when you have to 1:52:48.680 --> 1:52:51.040 distill it down to I don't know, a thousand of words, 1:52:51.080 --> 1:52:55.040 you might pull out four quotes, right, Yeah. And really 1:52:55.120 --> 1:52:57.519 being um a columnist I think is the best way 1:52:57.560 --> 1:52:59.559 to cover trial because a lot of the trial coverage 1:52:59.600 --> 1:53:02.600 is just so the defense said this, and the prosecution 1:53:02.640 --> 1:53:05.440 said this, and then there was the judgment on evidentiary 1:53:05.560 --> 1:53:08.680 ruling on this, and it's like like there was a 1:53:08.800 --> 1:53:11.240 day of her name, this child and he became a 1:53:11.320 --> 1:53:15.760 famous photo. But where his his fiance brought his daughter 1:53:16.320 --> 1:53:21.599 to the trial and for the last five minutes when 1:53:21.640 --> 1:53:24.400 they brought Aaron back in and he saw made up 1:53:24.479 --> 1:53:28.560 and waving at her and just really amazing scene. And 1:53:28.840 --> 1:53:31.880 I talked to her after, just like you know, um, 1:53:31.960 --> 1:53:34.080 and she granted his permission. That's you know I did. 1:53:34.280 --> 1:53:35.720 That's a bait. You know, you don't really know what 1:53:36.560 --> 1:53:38.320 then can't bring someone in the open court. We're I'm 1:53:38.320 --> 1:53:40.320 gonna say, like the TV wanted to show her and 1:53:40.360 --> 1:53:41.880 she's like, no, it's fine, and it was all this 1:53:42.000 --> 1:53:44.120 thing and it was just like this, it was a 1:53:44.200 --> 1:53:46.360 great moment. And I just wrote about that and I 1:53:46.439 --> 1:53:47.880 don't even know what happened because I think they might 1:53:47.880 --> 1:53:49.880 have been deliberating part of it or something. But it's like, 1:53:50.720 --> 1:53:52.960 this is the moment. And then it would be literally 1:53:53.040 --> 1:53:55.280 crazy because it's like five days later he killed himself 1:53:55.320 --> 1:53:57.559 and basically last time he saw a daughter. We didn't 1:53:57.560 --> 1:54:01.040 know that at the time, but um, I wonder if 1:54:01.120 --> 1:54:04.479 he did. And so this is sometimes like again trusting 1:54:04.560 --> 1:54:06.320 what the story is. It's like, Okay, this is the 1:54:06.360 --> 1:54:10.360 biggest thing. Like again, if you about walking home and 1:54:10.439 --> 1:54:12.400 my wife called me and she goes, what happened today? 1:54:12.400 --> 1:54:14.519 I like, oh my god, they brought the daby that 1:54:14.640 --> 1:54:17.000 the little girl so keyte they brought of the trial 1:54:17.200 --> 1:54:19.679 and it's like, you know, should she up or whatever? 1:54:19.760 --> 1:54:22.759 And they don't. And your columns about Snefidencia are ruling 1:54:23.280 --> 1:54:25.840 like you missed the story. Be sure to catch live 1:54:26.000 --> 1:54:28.880 editions about Kicked the coverage with Clay Travis week days 1:54:28.960 --> 1:54:33.120 at six am Eastern three am Pacific. There's lots of 1:54:33.160 --> 1:54:35.200 people out there listening right now and again the podcast 1:54:35.280 --> 1:54:37.600 called Wins and Losses. I'm Clay Travis, Dan what's so 1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:41.800 Yahoo Sports National columnists? So this you bring up the 1:54:41.880 --> 1:54:44.680 daughter there and you've got two daughters. I've got three sons. 1:54:44.760 --> 1:54:47.640 This is something we've talked about. How do you balance 1:54:47.680 --> 1:54:49.640 when you work as much as you do? How do 1:54:49.720 --> 1:54:53.800 you balance out family life with your work life? Um, 1:54:54.000 --> 1:54:56.760 and especially when you have a job where you might 1:54:56.800 --> 1:54:58.840 be on the road for a week covering a trial, 1:54:59.080 --> 1:55:01.839 or you might be for like you are in France 1:55:01.960 --> 1:55:04.320 right now covering into World Club, Like how do you 1:55:04.560 --> 1:55:06.720 multiple weeks maybe a month? I remember you were over 1:55:06.840 --> 1:55:10.560 in wherever it was, I think Korea, South Korea covering 1:55:10.640 --> 1:55:14.160 the Olympics over there. How do you balance out work 1:55:14.400 --> 1:55:18.520 and family life? I mean to me, that's the number 1:55:18.560 --> 1:55:23.680 one challenge for literally every parent who's every working there. Yeah, 1:55:24.120 --> 1:55:28.200 everybody struggles with it. Um, everybody wants more family time 1:55:29.000 --> 1:55:31.440 and but you also have to you know, one of 1:55:31.480 --> 1:55:33.280 the things you have to do is provide for your family. 1:55:33.400 --> 1:55:36.600 So that is a challenge. I just think everybody grappled with. 1:55:37.640 --> 1:55:40.120 You know, the benefit this is, at least how I 1:55:40.280 --> 1:55:44.360 just fi it is. You know, when I'm home, I'm home. 1:55:44.480 --> 1:55:48.280 I got I'm not commuting to an office. Um, you 1:55:48.360 --> 1:55:50.360 know there's a lot of time when I can when 1:55:50.400 --> 1:55:53.200 I'm home and I'm trying to really be this is 1:55:53.280 --> 1:55:55.920 the date, the minute by minute challenge. But being engaged 1:55:56.000 --> 1:55:58.800 with your kids when you're there, Yeah, you would be 1:55:58.920 --> 1:56:01.600 there and it's not paying attention to you them. Um. 1:56:02.000 --> 1:56:04.640 I'm a very early on pushing one of my kids on, 1:56:05.000 --> 1:56:07.240 my older daughter on a swing and while I'm looking 1:56:07.280 --> 1:56:10.120 at the telephone and I'm like, what am I doing? 1:56:10.720 --> 1:56:14.560 Like like whatever that hell, I can still remember the swing, 1:56:15.200 --> 1:56:17.640 you know, Like what are you doing? Put the phone down, 1:56:17.920 --> 1:56:20.440 like it's not bad. Whatever is on whatever, text messages 1:56:20.520 --> 1:56:22.880 or whatever, I get it your way. Like I'm literally 1:56:22.960 --> 1:56:24.960 at the park with with like two year old, Like 1:56:25.120 --> 1:56:27.560 this is way more important. But I think that's just 1:56:27.680 --> 1:56:31.160 a struggle everybody has, whether you travel for work or 1:56:31.320 --> 1:56:33.600 you have long community, you can't be home for this 1:56:34.400 --> 1:56:38.920 or that. Um and then how do you end work 1:56:39.080 --> 1:56:44.080 and start family time as fast as possible? Because I've 1:56:44.120 --> 1:56:46.520 heard like Mark Cuban's is like times the most precious 1:56:46.560 --> 1:56:48.600 thing you have, Like it's the one thing you can't buy. 1:56:48.680 --> 1:56:51.200 It's the one thing you can't buy. He's like, um 1:56:51.440 --> 1:56:54.360 and and you know, being a parent, man, it's slow 1:56:54.480 --> 1:56:59.000 and fast exact same time. Um. So, I don't know. 1:56:59.240 --> 1:57:00.760 I wish I had the I said that one, but 1:57:01.480 --> 1:57:06.240 it's well in particular, I think you're you're mentioning like 1:57:06.360 --> 1:57:08.840 you right from home. I do much of my work. 1:57:08.880 --> 1:57:11.040 I got a home radio, home television, you know, I 1:57:11.280 --> 1:57:14.240 I write and in my office. Like the flip switch 1:57:14.360 --> 1:57:17.600 between I'm you know, Dad at work versus I'm Dad 1:57:17.640 --> 1:57:21.200 at home is I think particularly challenging for people. I 1:57:21.240 --> 1:57:23.160 don't think it's just us, but I think if you 1:57:23.280 --> 1:57:25.800 have a job where it's it's it's hard to escape 1:57:25.920 --> 1:57:28.520 from it's hard to have those delionated hours. Like I 1:57:28.520 --> 1:57:31.960 remember talking to my dad recently, and when we would 1:57:31.960 --> 1:57:35.320 go on family vacation, he would take two weeks and 1:57:35.720 --> 1:57:38.240 he wouldn't talk to anybody at his office, right, like 1:57:38.320 --> 1:57:41.200 he would be unreachable, and like we were just as 1:57:41.240 --> 1:57:44.560 a family out on our own. And on some level, 1:57:44.880 --> 1:57:47.800 I envy that so much, like that ability to just 1:57:48.120 --> 1:57:51.040 escape from all contact for a couple of weeks. And 1:57:51.160 --> 1:57:53.800 I don't know that as a society we're ever going 1:57:53.840 --> 1:57:57.640 to have that. Oh, there's no way we'll ever have that. 1:57:58.160 --> 1:58:02.480 They just don't. I mean two weeks and be I 1:58:02.520 --> 1:58:05.080 mean times of a job, I guess you have. But um, 1:58:05.760 --> 1:58:08.480 you're always you were always too connected now with everything. 1:58:08.600 --> 1:58:10.920 But yeah, that would have been that would be great. 1:58:11.040 --> 1:58:13.760 But you know, I look at that and go he 1:58:13.920 --> 1:58:18.640 offer like working at home or working around like I am. 1:58:19.800 --> 1:58:21.600 You know, I can get the kids off to school 1:58:21.640 --> 1:58:25.920 and then start work or like you know, see there's 1:58:25.960 --> 1:58:28.080 no commute, man, It's not a lot of people commute. 1:58:28.760 --> 1:58:30.880 Um when they got to work two jobs, I worked 1:58:30.880 --> 1:58:35.480 two jobs. But it's a little more flexible, So I 1:58:35.600 --> 1:58:37.720 don't know, man, I mean it's just I just think 1:58:37.760 --> 1:58:40.040 it's something everybody fights every day because you want to 1:58:40.080 --> 1:58:44.600 do I've had things like, you know, I've had opportunities 1:58:44.720 --> 1:58:48.080 like well, come come here for a week, be on 1:58:48.160 --> 1:58:50.760 the TV show, or go go do this, and I 1:58:50.880 --> 1:58:52.760 just do like or you know you gonna if you 1:58:52.800 --> 1:58:54.480 do this, you gotta be on the road like the 1:58:54.600 --> 1:58:56.600 next six Saturday nights. And looks like if it's not 1:58:57.840 --> 1:59:00.320 for y'all, or I mean, I write books, try to 1:59:00.360 --> 1:59:02.240 do my second jobs with like books, some things that 1:59:02.440 --> 1:59:04.960 like sit into that I'm just like, I'm not giving 1:59:05.040 --> 1:59:08.160 up all those weekends. Like and I know it's just 1:59:08.280 --> 1:59:12.200 maybe not the smartest career thing, but I really want 1:59:12.240 --> 1:59:15.720 to be a parent. And so like sometimes you just say, now, 1:59:17.760 --> 1:59:18.920 you know, I think I was a lot of the 1:59:19.000 --> 1:59:21.280 guys that do really well on TV they don't have 1:59:21.440 --> 1:59:24.360 that they aren't married. Yeah, it is true that there 1:59:24.360 --> 1:59:27.200 it seems like there's a lot of people who don't 1:59:27.240 --> 1:59:30.440 have families or they aren't married. And you know, basically 1:59:30.520 --> 1:59:32.440 you can just have your career and when you're young, 1:59:32.560 --> 1:59:34.360 you can do that. And you were talking earlier about 1:59:34.480 --> 1:59:37.520 you know, you can make five working for the basketball 1:59:37.600 --> 1:59:40.000 times or whatever it is, because you don't have those obligations. 1:59:40.040 --> 1:59:41.680 And I do think for to the extent people are 1:59:41.760 --> 1:59:44.880 listening out there, when you're young and you're not married, 1:59:45.080 --> 1:59:46.880 or even if you're married and you don't have kids 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:48.960 and your wife's working or your husband's working, you have 1:59:49.080 --> 1:59:52.000 a lot more flexibility. Take advantage of it. Um. And 1:59:52.080 --> 1:59:53.760 that's the last question I want to ask you. And 1:59:53.800 --> 1:59:55.680 then I'm Clay Travis. We've been talking with Dan Wetts, 1:59:55.680 --> 1:59:58.200 so we do a weekly podcast here called Wins and Losses. 1:59:59.000 --> 2:00:02.040 What advice would you give someone out there right now 2:00:02.120 --> 2:00:04.920 who is listening and they're thinking, I want to one 2:00:05.000 --> 2:00:08.280 day make a living writing in the world of sports. 2:00:08.440 --> 2:00:14.760 What would you tell them to do right now? Uh? 2:00:18.520 --> 2:00:22.360 I mean, I just I don't know. I learn how 2:00:22.440 --> 2:00:25.080 to report and learn how to concentrate. I guess those 2:00:25.080 --> 2:00:27.600 are the two days. Don't don't worry about what you're covering, 2:00:28.840 --> 2:00:32.840 um early on. I mean, it's you know, like I 2:00:32.960 --> 2:00:36.480 just it's just not that important. Everybody wants to cover 2:00:36.720 --> 2:00:39.400 the super Bowl and the super Bowl, and there's a 2:00:39.480 --> 2:00:41.320 ton of people at the super Bowl don't know how 2:00:41.360 --> 2:00:45.960 to cover it. So it's like they're like there's lots 2:00:45.960 --> 2:00:47.760 of people. They're just sort of kind of in the media, 2:00:47.880 --> 2:00:50.720 but they don't they don't really ever preach anything substance. 2:00:50.840 --> 2:00:53.160 And so it's like you just really have to learn 2:00:53.200 --> 2:00:56.920 how to do the job. Uh. I think there's too much. 2:00:57.240 --> 2:00:59.320 There's just too many. You're not you're not gonna laugh 2:01:00.080 --> 2:01:02.160 unless you know how to. I say that, and I 2:01:02.200 --> 2:01:05.560 hope I keep lasted. But um, you just you have 2:01:05.720 --> 2:01:08.400 to learn how to give the job. It's it's it's 2:01:08.440 --> 2:01:12.120 a job. It's not where am I at? Um? And 2:01:12.240 --> 2:01:14.560 if you can figure out how to think on your 2:01:14.560 --> 2:01:16.200 feet and they give you all sorts of different people 2:01:16.240 --> 2:01:18.440 and do all these different things and right really quickly 2:01:18.560 --> 2:01:22.040 and write a lot and get it right all the 2:01:22.080 --> 2:01:25.120 different things you have to do. Um, then you have 2:01:25.240 --> 2:01:27.360 the skills and then you'll get to go to wherever 2:01:27.480 --> 2:01:29.520 you want to go. But just because it's like a 2:01:29.640 --> 2:01:32.880 big event, that's not the best stuff you do. I 2:01:32.920 --> 2:01:35.040 guess that's probably the biggest thing. Everyone was like, all 2:01:35.120 --> 2:01:37.600 you got to go to that. I'm like, you know, 2:01:38.040 --> 2:01:41.520 like that's yes and no, like you always get to remember, 2:01:41.680 --> 2:01:44.840 like how fortunately are being it? It was it was 2:01:44.880 --> 2:01:47.200 a covered daytona five hunter all time and the Masters 2:01:47.280 --> 2:01:50.240 and Jay Bugsby and Jay Hartsdag to work with and 2:01:50.240 --> 2:01:52.440 we always would take time to get the day five 2:01:52.680 --> 2:01:55.120 d on like the Thursday night they do like a 2:01:55.280 --> 2:01:57.800 shootout that they at race and we always still out 2:01:57.840 --> 2:02:00.480 in this grandstands and have a beer and just like 2:02:00.640 --> 2:02:03.200 remind us of like how often this is, Like yours 2:02:03.200 --> 2:02:05.720 a third number likes how great it is to be 2:02:05.840 --> 2:02:08.640 at some place and bring passion to a game, But 2:02:10.360 --> 2:02:13.560 like just being at the game is not. My job 2:02:13.680 --> 2:02:16.440 is not to go to the game. So it's like 2:02:16.600 --> 2:02:18.320 just because the game is going on and it's a 2:02:18.360 --> 2:02:21.200 cool game, that's and I just think there's so much 2:02:21.240 --> 2:02:23.080 sports media. It's just like I get to go to 2:02:23.160 --> 2:02:26.400 the game. Like, you're probably not going to produce something 2:02:26.760 --> 2:02:28.400 that's going to keep getting you to go back to 2:02:28.480 --> 2:02:30.840 the game. So learn how to do that and you 2:02:30.920 --> 2:02:32.360 probably will be able to do this job for a 2:02:32.400 --> 2:02:36.680 long time in whatever shape formed this job is. I 2:02:36.720 --> 2:02:38.160 know I said last question, but I want to go 2:02:38.200 --> 2:02:40.400 back to the very beginning. Now, you said when you 2:02:40.480 --> 2:02:44.200 first started covering U Mass in college that John Calipari 2:02:44.480 --> 2:02:46.880 years that you'd be like, oh, this is a really 2:02:46.960 --> 2:02:50.000 big game. If Bob Bryan's there. Um, have you had 2:02:50.040 --> 2:02:53.640 the experience yet, and I'm sure you have of people 2:02:53.680 --> 2:02:56.520 coming up to you and they're like, oh Wow, Dan Wetzel, 2:02:56.600 --> 2:02:58.800 I can't believe you're here. You know, the young guy 2:02:59.080 --> 2:03:02.520 version of you, who a college level kid now who 2:03:02.800 --> 2:03:05.200 is like kind of oh my god, it's a it's 2:03:05.240 --> 2:03:07.320 a really big event because Dan wessels here. And what 2:03:07.400 --> 2:03:10.360 does that path feel like to have gone from being 2:03:10.440 --> 2:03:12.560 the kid who's at the event thinking, oh my god, 2:03:12.560 --> 2:03:15.800 I can't believe Bob Ryan's here too. Now maybe occasionally 2:03:15.880 --> 2:03:20.720 hearing from people I can't believe Dan Wessel's here. Yeah, 2:03:20.760 --> 2:03:25.400 it's it's definitely weird. Um, I I'm not on TV 2:03:25.520 --> 2:03:31.560 a ton um, so like I don't get that, like 2:03:32.280 --> 2:03:35.400 just random fan. They don't easily. I don't know me. 2:03:35.520 --> 2:03:38.400 My wife always jokes like your groupies are all like everybody, 2:03:38.920 --> 2:03:42.360 Like everybody I know who's like a thirty to forty 2:03:42.440 --> 2:03:46.200 nine year old man knows exactly who you are. Like No, 2:03:47.680 --> 2:03:52.120 I'm like, yeah, that's your wheel. Oh the guys, that's 2:03:52.200 --> 2:03:53.840 my real house, right, is right? I'm like, yeah, I 2:03:53.960 --> 2:03:55.960 got the worst groupies, like I have know, like hot 2:03:56.040 --> 2:03:57.880 twenty year old girup. Now they don't know who I am, 2:03:58.440 --> 2:04:01.320 but they're like two year old guy mowing his lawn, 2:04:01.760 --> 2:04:05.280 chatting mew to Tennessee listening to the podcast it was 2:04:05.320 --> 2:04:09.280 in my people. Um, yeah, the young writers. Yeah, it's 2:04:09.440 --> 2:04:12.960 I don't even it's really unnerving. I don't it's not unnerving. 2:04:13.040 --> 2:04:14.920 I just don't even know what to say because I'm 2:04:15.080 --> 2:04:17.680 really annoy I have a very interesting job, but I 2:04:17.760 --> 2:04:20.800 have a really normal person. I mowed my lawn, I 2:04:20.880 --> 2:04:24.800 drink bush light, I have a bad golfer. Like there's 2:04:24.920 --> 2:04:28.600 nothing vaccinating about my life other than the job. That's it, 2:04:29.120 --> 2:04:31.000 Like you know, and so I always just kind of 2:04:31.040 --> 2:04:33.080 people a little pop off. So I don't know, like 2:04:33.160 --> 2:04:35.120 I get it. So I'm sure you get the same thing. 2:04:35.200 --> 2:04:39.320 I mean, just sort of like I'm not famous, right 2:04:39.680 --> 2:04:42.320 so and I don't try to be famous, so it's 2:04:42.320 --> 2:04:43.640 a sort of a little odd I don't know. I 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:45.640 guess I never I don't really know what to say, 2:04:45.680 --> 2:04:49.880 except you know, I'm encouraging and flattering, I guess, but like, okay, 2:04:50.040 --> 2:04:51.760 but I'm here to work and you're here to work 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:56.360 or um. I've done Ohio University this year and with 2:04:56.600 --> 2:04:58.360 lunch with a couple of kids, like listen, I mis 2:04:58.440 --> 2:05:02.320 knew everything about all journalism is kind of funny, and 2:05:02.960 --> 2:05:07.920 I don't know, it is interesting you mentioned that. But 2:05:08.680 --> 2:05:11.880 what I always try to think is you you talked 2:05:11.880 --> 2:05:14.800 about your your upbringing. I think the advantage that you 2:05:14.960 --> 2:05:16.680 have and that I have in some sense, and that 2:05:16.760 --> 2:05:19.360 I worry about, honestly my kids having, whether they're gonna 2:05:19.360 --> 2:05:22.760 be is I was raised so middle class and so 2:05:23.000 --> 2:05:26.120 middle of the road, so middle ordinary that I feel 2:05:26.200 --> 2:05:29.600 like I understand who the audience is for sports, right. 2:05:29.960 --> 2:05:31.680 I remember hearing and this is the quote that I 2:05:31.800 --> 2:05:34.120 that I've always loved, Like, um, there's lots of people 2:05:34.160 --> 2:05:36.920 who worry about writing for quote unquote the elites, right, 2:05:36.960 --> 2:05:38.840 Like I'm trying to write for the people who live 2:05:38.880 --> 2:05:40.680 in New York City and live on the Upper East Side. 2:05:40.760 --> 2:05:44.680 Or I'm trying to write for the people who yeah right, 2:05:44.760 --> 2:05:47.960 in the same same thing, like yeah right, like and 2:05:48.120 --> 2:05:50.400 so and and I think you know from where I 2:05:50.520 --> 2:05:54.440 came from. I'm writing about SEC football. Initially, my audience 2:05:54.680 --> 2:05:57.920 is like literally the the middle part of America, right, 2:05:57.960 --> 2:05:59.960 those are the people who love college football, the people 2:06:00.040 --> 2:06:02.320 who are opening up a beer and kicking back on 2:06:02.400 --> 2:06:06.320 their couch to to watch a game. And I think 2:06:06.440 --> 2:06:08.800 that there is and and I'm not saying that being 2:06:08.840 --> 2:06:11.080 elite is in any way a bad thing, but I 2:06:11.160 --> 2:06:13.360 think that speaks to you saying, like I know what 2:06:13.560 --> 2:06:16.520 people are going to care about. I remember a great 2:06:16.600 --> 2:06:20.560 quote about Jerry Bruckheimer, right, Like Jerry Bruckheimer makes movies 2:06:20.880 --> 2:06:23.720 that everybody is gonna want to watch, right, like his Goal, 2:06:24.080 --> 2:06:27.240 you know, Transformers, Pirates of the Caribbean. Like he's making 2:06:27.360 --> 2:06:32.800 movies that are gonna appeal yeah, right, and so yeah, 2:06:32.880 --> 2:06:35.000 well you may Gloria. Right, So that's a great example. Yeah, 2:06:35.080 --> 2:06:37.800 Like he's trying to speak to the masses. And he said, like, 2:06:37.880 --> 2:06:41.200 so you gotta ask a question. Once he said, somebody said, um, 2:06:41.600 --> 2:06:44.320 how do you know what moves the needle? Right, It's 2:06:44.320 --> 2:06:46.160 one of the best all time quotes I've ever heard. 2:06:46.560 --> 2:06:49.840 And he said, I am the needle. And I love 2:06:49.960 --> 2:06:52.840 that responsive, really cocky answer, right, But it speaks to 2:06:52.920 --> 2:06:56.040 it on two different levels. One like, I know what 2:06:56.280 --> 2:06:59.000 people are going to respond to, so I can move 2:06:59.080 --> 2:07:01.200 the needle as I need two. Right. That's one way 2:07:01.240 --> 2:07:03.200 to take that answer. The other way to take it 2:07:03.360 --> 2:07:06.520 is I am Middle America. I know what people are 2:07:06.560 --> 2:07:09.320 going to respond to because I am my audience and 2:07:09.400 --> 2:07:11.440 I always like to focus on it more on the 2:07:11.520 --> 2:07:14.240 second part, knowing your audience. And when you just said, 2:07:14.280 --> 2:07:16.560 you know, I drink push light, I mowed my own 2:07:16.640 --> 2:07:18.480 law and you know I go to my I go 2:07:18.560 --> 2:07:21.120 to my daughter soccer games. Like that is the Yahoo 2:07:21.120 --> 2:07:26.720 audience right that my weekend. Yeah, and we were doing 2:07:26.800 --> 2:07:29.840 our college we're doing our college football podcast top forty 2:07:29.920 --> 2:07:32.760 and damn when I do it. Um, now, when you 2:07:32.880 --> 2:07:34.920 listen to two hours of this podcast, you should listen 2:07:34.960 --> 2:07:38.120 to that one started again. But there was a night 2:07:38.240 --> 2:07:43.040 when I think it was like, um, Tom Herman and 2:07:43.200 --> 2:07:45.360 Mike Van Gandi almost got in a fight, like during 2:07:45.400 --> 2:07:48.800 the game was last year. It's like some moment they 2:07:48.840 --> 2:07:51.280 were yelling at each other like it was gonna be 2:07:51.320 --> 2:07:53.600 a fight. And I remember there was some notes came 2:07:53.640 --> 2:07:55.600 out from one of our like a producer like this 2:07:55.680 --> 2:07:56.920 is what we need to talk I'm like, no, we're 2:07:56.920 --> 2:07:59.240 talking about who win the fight? Yeah, like you know, 2:07:59.480 --> 2:08:01.680 like you know, do you get an advantage because you 2:08:01.760 --> 2:08:04.200 got got the mullet? You know, Like this is what 2:08:04.280 --> 2:08:06.200 we're gonna talk about our podcast. Like I'm great on 2:08:06.280 --> 2:08:08.280 the podcast, They're like, now we're doing this, this this 2:08:08.400 --> 2:08:10.600 because I'm like, you're sitting at home and I wonder 2:08:10.600 --> 2:08:13.040 who would win that fight. You know what, here, that's 2:08:13.080 --> 2:08:15.800 a shame. This is sort of shame many to find 2:08:15.880 --> 2:08:18.360 these coaches for acting up who kids homes? Fine, Um, 2:08:18.400 --> 2:08:20.600 it was funny, like I think Tom Herman would win, 2:08:20.720 --> 2:08:23.440 you know, I think Gundy. Gundy's got a bobby knife 2:08:23.480 --> 2:08:29.800 on him all that. You know. Like, I just atomic 2:08:30.160 --> 2:08:33.000 completely different than what they want, whatever pretty Ture would 2:08:33.000 --> 2:08:34.680 want us to do. And I feel like, yeah, that's right, 2:08:35.040 --> 2:08:37.440 we're doing this. Don't worry. This is what they're talking about. 2:08:38.520 --> 2:08:41.160 Nobody wants to hear about this. I'm not gonna faint 2:08:41.200 --> 2:08:44.160 outrage at two millionaires almost fight. Let him fight, That's 2:08:44.160 --> 2:08:46.000 be great. And then it became actually a big thing. 2:08:46.040 --> 2:08:48.600 I remember they would have Leech Leech talking about who 2:08:48.600 --> 2:08:51.040 would win the fight in the fact twelves and kind 2:08:51.040 --> 2:08:54.080 of started to become a thing. So yeah, I feel 2:08:54.200 --> 2:08:57.720 very confident in knowing what I grew up in these coasts, 2:08:58.120 --> 2:09:00.560 so I don't feel foreign to these coasts. It's not 2:09:00.560 --> 2:09:02.360 in California, but I mean I live in the middle 2:09:02.360 --> 2:09:05.720 of the country. And you know, I'm feel pretty confident 2:09:05.920 --> 2:09:08.920 what what my audience is interested in and and and 2:09:09.080 --> 2:09:11.560 what they're not interested in. And sometimes you gotta write 2:09:11.560 --> 2:09:14.960 about stuff they're not but in a way that's not 2:09:15.200 --> 2:09:21.680 like driving them crazy, you know. So um, it's so, 2:09:21.800 --> 2:09:25.560 I guess I'm just comfortable with it. I don't and 2:09:25.760 --> 2:09:27.360 I'll do this like I don't care about it. I've 2:09:27.360 --> 2:09:31.600 never care about a ward, like advised to speak at 2:09:31.600 --> 2:09:33.000 the like I don't want to go to any of 2:09:33.080 --> 2:09:34.840 that stuff, Like I'm much sure how to be home, 2:09:36.000 --> 2:09:39.560 like speak on this panel, like no, thanks God, no 2:09:40.400 --> 2:09:43.320 outstanding stuff. Dan Wetzel go follow him on Twitter at 2:09:43.400 --> 2:09:46.040 Dan Wetzel. If you've listened to the whole podcast, as 2:09:46.080 --> 2:09:48.160 I hope you guys have, you definitely need to buy 2:09:48.320 --> 2:09:51.480 Epic Athletes for one of your kids. Their sports biographies 2:09:51.480 --> 2:09:54.600 for middle school ers. Alex Morgan, Steph Curry, Tom Brady, 2:09:54.640 --> 2:09:57.280 and Serena Williams are going to be out soon. This 2:09:57.520 --> 2:10:00.120 has been the Wins and Wastses podcast. I'm Clay travi Us, 2:10:00.120 --> 2:10:02.200 He's Dan Wetzel. Thanks for hanging with us. We'll talk 2:10:02.240 --> 2:10:04.720 to you next week. M