1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: This is Wins and Losses with Clay Travis. Clay talks 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business. 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Now here's Clay Travis. Welcome in two Wins and Losses. 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: I am your fearless host, Clay Travis. This is our 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: sixth different episode of Wins and Losses. If you haven't 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: heard it yet, I'd encourage you to go check out 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: some of the earlier five episodes. Jason Whitlock, SEC commissioner, 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: Greg Sanky, Shannon Terry, who sold Rivals to Yahoo and 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: seven Sports to CBS. We talked to Mike Leach, Washington 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: State head football coach, and Paul Findbaum of the SEC 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: Network and ESPN. We are joined to this episode by 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: the most read national columnist in all of the United States. 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: I believe that is accurate. He is Dan Wetzel at 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Yahoo Sports. You can find him at dan Wetzel on Twitter. 15 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: He is in the process of writing a series of books, 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: sports biographies for middle schoolers. I've got him in my house. 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: The kids are actually reading them. The two that we 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: have in our house already. Alex Morgan, US women's soccer 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: player Steph Curry, Tom Brady and Serena Williams will be 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: out soon. Uh So the plug here he didn't ask for. 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: But the truth is, if you're like me and you've 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: got young kids and you're trying to get them to 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: read something, uh, these are really books that ideally would 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: appeal to them, and you can. It's a sort of 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: sort of like giving a healthy food while at the 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: same time you're getting a benefit because it's a sports biography. 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: So if they like sports, they're getting that, but they're 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: also actually reading, which is important. And as if that 29 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: weren't enough, Dan Wetzel is joining us right now from France. 30 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: He's traveled all over the world covering sports. Uh, and 31 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna get probably a little bit to what it's 32 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: like to be in France. But Dan, first of all, 33 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. Uh. Second, when you were growing up, 34 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: did you ever think that you might one day be 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: the most read national sports columnists in the country. Uh? No, no, 36 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that concept ever Uh struck 37 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: me as anything. I do think I recall as a 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: kid being like intrigued that people were paid to fall 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: around the Boston Bruins, yes, and uh and report on them. 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: But I think I would have just gone and been 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: a fan. I don't think I would have really grasped 42 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: what the job was. But uh, yeah, no, I did 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: not think people would Uh many people would read me 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: let alone that I'd be like in France covering women 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: soccerbout seeing that probably was conceptually not possible when I 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: was young. Yeah. No, it's a good point, all right. 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: So we're gonna get to all of that and work 48 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: your way up to how you end up at Yahoo 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: Sports again. Dan Wetzel on Twitter at Dan Wetzel. But 50 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: I want to start here. You mentioned growing up in 51 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: Massachusetts in the Boston area. What was your background, How 52 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: did you kind of move your way into the educational system. 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: Where did you grow up? What was your childhood like? Yeah, 54 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: I grew up in the South Shore of Boston. Um, 55 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, uh, just you know, I went to I 56 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: went to public school eighth grade, went to all boys 57 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: Genterit School in Boston, PC High and high school, and 58 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: then once the University of Massachusetts for college. And UM 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: really was not looking at all at um journalism really 60 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: until I got to you math, and I kind of 61 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: joined the student paper and like a club like almost 62 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: something to do. So yeah, they had an ad in 63 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: the paper, and I remember being like, I might be interested, 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: and they're down there like just trying to meet people 65 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: the first week of school. So it started. So when 66 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: you're growing up in in the Boston area, were you 67 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: a fan of all of the Boston area teams? The 68 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: Red Sox, the Patriots. I mean that you mentioned the 69 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: Boston Bruins. I mean a typical you know, depending on 70 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: where you grew up, but regional, regional American childhood where 71 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: you root for the teams that are local to your 72 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: your home down. Yeah, absolutely, And we read My dad 73 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: though was that you know, we got three or four 74 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: newspapers a day in the house and so and you know, 75 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: there wasn't like it wasn't that much to do back then. 76 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean, so it's like when the news, like the 77 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: newspaper was there, you read it because it was like, 78 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, they do only have sports on. It was 79 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: pre fpn um. But you know, like you just didn't 80 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: have like endless opportunities to watch sports. So would be like, wow, 81 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: I read the paper, paper, afternoon paper game. It was 82 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: like something to do. So I definitely read a lot um, 83 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: but it wasn't like I was sitting there going, oh, 84 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: I want to I want to do this. So you 85 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: go off the U Mass. What did you think you 86 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: were going to major in when you end up at 87 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: UMass a major A majored in political science. I think 88 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: I thought I might be a lawyer. I don't know 89 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: what I was really, I was just trying to get 90 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: a degree. UM. That was kind of my main goal 91 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: was just get the college and then get a degree. 92 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: Uh So, I like I worked a lot and just 93 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: and I didn't really have a set plan. And then 94 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: I just started. I started covering sports really again just 95 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: for something to do. It was pretty fun UM and 96 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: it kind of took off. John Calipari was a U 97 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: Mass at the time, and you know, not only did 98 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: he get the basketball team UM to be good, he 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: was and remains this like just a tremendous newsmaking figure. 100 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: So he was always causing some kind of like story. 101 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: It was always it was very very interesting and exciting, 102 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: like you know, he'd be fighting with different coaches. You know, 103 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: I was there the day John Chaney went after all UM. 104 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: He just was. It was there was so much news 105 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: off of this that it was like this was really 106 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: fun to cover and I think that really was like 107 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: when I was like, you know, this is this is great, 108 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: Like if I could do this, um, this is a 109 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: pretty enjoyable career. And so that's that's kind of how 110 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: most of it really started. So do you remember the 111 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: first story you of a road at UMS? Yeah? Yeah, 112 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: I thought my first beat was the women's across country team. Yeah. 113 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: Uh brutal. Okay, so you go, have you ever been 114 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: to across country meet? You would know and you probably 115 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: never thought of writing a story about it. But they 116 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: shoot a gun and and the women run into the 117 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: woods and then they come back like twenty minutes later 118 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: and they finished, and that's a cross country Okay, So 119 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: you don't see any of the race at all. You're 120 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: just standing there at the Yeah. But you so you go, 121 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: well what happened? You know? And then it's like you 122 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: get their times and you try to spell their names, right, 123 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean stories were just trying to do whatever, 124 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: but you know, and then the West I tried to 125 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: run as fast as I could. I mean, what strategy. 126 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: You're very strategy, but like you know, you've been a 127 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: second ago. Here's my question, did you consider going faster? 128 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: Like I don't know, what I no idea? What to 129 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: ask you? This cross gunt people talk about like is 130 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: it hard to write like a running game or at 131 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: the super Bowl? Is it hard to cover the the Olympics? No, 132 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: now cover a women's college cross country meet in the rain? Okay, 133 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: that's hard, Okay, like cover I covered a um uh 134 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: girls soccer game once in high school to think zero 135 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,559 Speaker 1: zero because I was freelancing toil like a local paper, 136 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: like a zero zero game. Okay, what do we got here? 137 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: Those those are hard to write. Something always happens with 138 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: the super Bowl. Okay, don't worry about the super Bowl. 139 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, I do remember um and I just remember 140 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: I was trying to spell the names right. That was good. 141 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: Do you realize like they you know, like this thing 142 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: actually gets pret it's a campus paper, but when you're 143 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: at college, like that was everything, So get get the 144 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: names right? Were you a good student? Three women were 145 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: pretty good looking too, So yeah, as a college kid, 146 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: that wasn't a bit you had. You had an excuse 147 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: to talk to him, which isn't an which isn't an 148 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: awful problem. Uh. Were you a good student? Were you 149 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: a good student at all? When you were you know, 150 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: like k through twelve and in the in the U 151 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: Mass I mean, were you were you thinking like, oh, 152 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm you know, like academics is my pathway? You said 153 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: you mentioned law school. Is that a sign that you 154 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: were pretty good or were you disinterested or how would 155 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: you describe yourself as a student. I was determined. I 156 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: don't know if I was necessarily there's a lot of 157 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: law schools. They go to Vanderbilt. I was, I was. 158 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, I was pretty good. I don't I 159 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: don't know what I mean. I think i'd like at 160 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: three five in college or something like that. Okay, I 161 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: was good, but not not as Union's in any way 162 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: share or form Alright, I would work really hard to 163 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: get a good grade. That was what I would do, 164 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: all right. So you were covering women's cross country or 165 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: a cross country meets soccer matches. When do you get 166 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: to go to a game that there's a crowd there 167 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: and you actually feel, oh, wow, I've got a good seat. 168 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: Like when's the first thing you covered and you thought, Wow, 169 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: it's really cool that I get to sit here and 170 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: watch this. It was probably like a men's basketball game, 171 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: um uh that you know, like a good U mask 172 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: men's basketball game. You know they were they play somebody good. 173 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: This is for people who don't people who don't remember. 174 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: This is during the Marcus can be Ish era, Carmelo 175 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: Travis like first first year was before Marcus. But yeah, 176 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: that group, that group and ran and Blue roll definitely, 177 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: Um yeah, am I right about that? They had Edgar Padilla? Yeah, 178 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: I remember that, those Puerto Rican backcourt. Yeah, uh wad 179 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: Edgar and Carmelo good guys. You have Marcus, So yeah, 180 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: some of that. And then you're like, this is like 181 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: an actual event, and not only that. You sit there 182 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: and it's like the guy next to you show at 183 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: the boss the globe, like you know, so you're like wow. 184 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: And then you know like it was a big enough game, 185 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: like Bob Ryan would come and you're like, wow, this 186 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: is like serious stuff. Um so that was kind of 187 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: that was kind of fun. So you're covering Calipari and 188 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned and that the John Cheney story. And for 189 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: people who don't remember when John Chaney just went off 190 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: on John Calipari and was like I'll choke you to death, 191 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: I'll kill you. You were sitting in that room. What 192 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: was I mean? That had to be like an out 193 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: of body experience. It was awesome. Yeah, it was absolutely banana. 194 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: So there's no social media. There's no like like you 195 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: had to wait and see if it came on Sports 196 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: Center like later like now they probably like break in 197 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: on it or something or just be all over Twitter. 198 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: And but at the time, it was like, did that 199 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: seriously happen? And Um, what had happened was Chane had 200 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: come in and Donna press conference and he had actually 201 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: like praised the team and didn't this really good game. 202 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: I think they're both like in the top ten really 203 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: heated game. You m asked one Chaney. I always love 204 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: Chaney still do um and he, you know, it comes 205 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: in kind of praises them many leaves. But while he 206 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: was in his press conference, he heard that Calipari had 207 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: like gotten into it with the officials after the game. 208 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: And there's still a lot of dispute on whether that 209 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: actually happened or not or whatever Janey thought it did. 210 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: And so then he just comes storming back in and 211 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: it was like, all right, what's he doing back? And 212 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: I was like and I thought he was just gonna 213 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 1: be like, hey, good luck to restaurant or something like that, 214 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: and he just started going crazy and you're like, is 215 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: this like actually happening, Like he's gonna go track, It's like, 216 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill you. And he went up there ready 217 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: to fight him, and Um, to his day, I wouldn't 218 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: fight John Cheney. I mean he's eighty something years old, 219 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: Jeff John James is gonna win the fight, so nobody 220 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: should ever try to fight John Janey. So he's literally 221 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: like could have been worse, but um, two emass players 222 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: kind of broke it up. Kept it took two guys 223 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: the old Cheney back to like twenty year old college 224 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: basketball players, and uh yeah, it was awesome that I 225 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: was like, this is this is just a nom It's 226 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: probably how I ended up telling of sports and sports 227 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: are for So how many people were actually in the 228 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: room when that happens, because people may or may not. 229 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it, you can go YouTube and 230 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's out there because if it happened today everywhere. Yeah, 231 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: I stand up in the middle of it. I'm watching, 232 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, reporter on the scene. Um, it was 233 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: probably like thirty people. There was as interview room after. 234 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: So you can see yourself though in the video if 235 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: you go back and watch it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't 236 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: replay it like on ESPN every once in a while, 237 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: like you know ten best coaching belt bounds or something 238 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: and uh and I'll be on there. So did you 239 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: so you're covering then as as a student reporter? Um, 240 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: have you had any interaction like does John Calipari remember 241 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: you from having covered him when you were writing for 242 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: the U Mass student newspaper now that both of you 243 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: have gone on to obviously uh different directions. I mean 244 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: he's obviously had a lot of success at at Kentucky 245 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: and you're a national columnist at Yahoo. Do you think 246 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: he's aware that you covered him that far back? Yeah? Absolutely? 247 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah where never were I gotta touch? So yeah he knows. Okay, 248 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: right A mout and talk to him very often now, 249 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: but I could so you you cover, you mask you 250 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: graduate from college? Yeah, you mask back then, Like this 251 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: wasn't like Kentucky basketball there's only like five or six 252 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: people cover the team, so it was fortunate for you. 253 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: Do you think you would have been a sports report 254 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: Do you think you would have been a sports writer 255 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: if you Mass had been what U Mass has been 256 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: for most of their career, you know, like a mid 257 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: range at best a ten caliber basketball program. Do you 258 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 1: think that them being good made you think, hey, this 259 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: is something that I want to do in a way 260 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't have if they had been thoroughly mediocre 261 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: very well. May not have very well, may not have. 262 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: It's hard to say, but it wouldn't be a spun. 263 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: That wouldn't have been a big so probably wouldn't be 264 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: excited me as much, and I wouldn't have seen that 265 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: there was like an opportunity me there. I might have 266 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: stopped into journalism anyway, but I absolutely when I first 267 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: got out of We'll get to that, I guess. But 268 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: I also liked covering like crime and news and stuff, 269 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: so I might have ended up going more that route, 270 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: but I probably not because my real, first real job 271 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: was covering college basketball. So a lot of it was 272 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: connections I made while I was a college student covering 273 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: Mass because there are such a big story. All these 274 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: people came through to write about them and TV people 275 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: and everything. All Right, So you graduate from college, you've 276 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: been able to cover John Calipari and U Mass as 277 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: they made the most successful basketball run, and you know, 278 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: the last what forty years of U mass athletics I 279 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: would imagine, and then you graduate from college and what happens? 280 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: How do you get a job in the world of sports? Well, 281 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: I go and work actually covering uh news. I covered 282 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: crime for a summer at the Indianapolis News Indiana. There 283 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: was a recession and like the Northeast at that time, 284 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: so there really wasn't ops. Um. I was out there 285 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: for that. I was covering, you know, whatever house fired. 286 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: I covered a murder trial like it was great, um 287 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: And I really liked doing all that. And you would 288 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: have been you would this would have been like what year, 289 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: Like what year do you start your career in Indianapolis? 290 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: I just maybe nine or something like that. Okay, so 291 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: the internet the your summer intern The internet is just 292 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: starting to kind of percolate. Right. Do you remember the 293 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: first time you got on the internet. I don't really, 294 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: but it was, Yeah, the internet was I actually wrote 295 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: sports for the original American Online if the old dial up, 296 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: and they had this a little they had these little taps, 297 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: and I got to know the guy who was in 298 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: charge of the sports tab on America Online. And I 299 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: would write like once or twice a week, like a 300 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: story or column about sports on there. I can only 301 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: imagine when people read that thing, what did you get astronomical? 302 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: What did you get paid for that? I couldn't like 303 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: so that, But but you for people out there you 304 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: don't remember, you used to have to get on the internet. 305 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: America Online would send out all these yeah, all these discs. 306 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: You'd plug them in and then your phone line and 307 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: would get like a worrying sound, you know, like and 308 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: for I'm taking people back in time who were old 309 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: enough to remember this, and the younger people who are 310 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: listening to are like, what in the hell are you 311 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: guys talking about? And then it would pop up, like 312 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, you'd get that that connection, and there would 313 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: be a mail Yeah, you got mailed. Yeah, And then 314 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: there was like a news tab. There was like a 315 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: sports tab and maybe like a weather for something. And 316 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: I wrote on the sports tab America was a O 317 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: L sports And it wasn't getting tad much. But I 318 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: mean literally the entire world the only way to get 319 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: on the Internet was through that page YEA at that time, 320 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: And so I can only imagine that we're probably like 321 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: you literally would write something like I don't even know 322 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: twenty million people would read it have been I mean 323 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: it might well, be true, because it's the best. I mean, 324 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: it's like the Netflix homepage now and we'll talk about 325 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: the Yahoo homepage and it's impact, I mean, which is 326 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: obviously still massive. So you're writing in Indianapolis. Uh, and 327 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: how long does that gig go on? You're covering house fires, 328 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: you're covering former trial for four months and then what happens? 329 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: Then I went to Chicago Tribune for like four months, 330 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: same thing, like just news, all sorts of just like 331 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: shooting something. Whatever the hell going Chicago, great New city. 332 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 1: So just total Bayham every day, every day. So did 333 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: you did you send out like the clips from your 334 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: U mass articles? How did you get those jobs? Yeah, 335 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: you have to apply to get a clip pack You 336 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: you have to send a lot of a lot of 337 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: you send a lot of them out there. That's just 338 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: kind of a problem. So the process of getting a 339 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: job is hard, Like you would have to work your 340 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: ass off to get a gig in any way. You 341 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: send a hundred packets, I mean you just had to 342 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: because you didn't know who were at a job and 343 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: if anyone would read them and you and you had 344 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: to print them, you had to change the cover page, 345 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: you had to fill out the address. You had to 346 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: find the right person to send it to, like if 347 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: you couldn't just email or go on like zip recruiter 348 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: and like it just just fine job with a pain 349 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: in the neck back then, so you get that, and 350 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: then you moved to Chicago and then what happens all right, 351 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: So then so I really liked covering news. But then 352 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: this magazine's uh, this guy Larry Donald who who owned 353 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: a magazine called Basketball Times Magazine, and I had met 354 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: him from the mass he lived in Detroit, and it 355 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: was like a man, you were just write about college 356 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: basketball and correct these long stories. There's a lot of 357 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: freedom of the writer. And my Schago tribute thing was 358 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: ending and I got offered like a job covering news 359 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: and like I'm not even from the Midwest, so like 360 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: Chagro was great, Indianapolis is good, Chad was great. And 361 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: then I got this job offer like covering this small 362 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: town outside of four Wayne, Indians and I was just like, 363 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: I was like I don't want to do this. I 364 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: just I'm I'm just not a farmer like my thing. 365 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: And then I had this Overgeny to go work for 366 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Basketball Time City. So it was a much smaller complication, 367 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: but write and report pretty much do whatever you wanted. 368 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: So I took that job and it was in Detroit, 369 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: which is you know I wanted. I was just want 370 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: to go. I always want to be in a big city. 371 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: That's just me. Um. So I took that job, and 372 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 1: at a basketball times, I just had this great uh 373 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: freedom to let learn how to write. And that was 374 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: probably the best thing that especially at that age. I 375 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: didn't need a lot of money. I didn't really need 376 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: the prestige like I would be a Scott a tribute 377 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,479 Speaker 1: and like could be a murder. Like you get out 378 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: there early and they'd be like something on us, Like 379 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: we had these police scanners other stuff that allright, homicide, 380 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, like south Side talking it down there, you 381 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: interview all these people, this kid got killed. Whatever you go, 382 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: and it's been like it's just a brief, Like you 383 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: have all this stuff to write a story and be 384 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: like four paragraphs and it's just like you so you're 385 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: working at a big place, but you weren't really doing 386 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: like impactful work, and so the opportunity to like just 387 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: try this was what really appealed to me at basketball times. 388 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: And then I was just able to kind of do whatever. 389 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: That was my big break. What would they pay you? 390 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: Because a lot of people wonder about getting your foot 391 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: in the door. Do you remember what your early salaries 392 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: were in those jobs? I think at basketball don let's 393 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: take twenty two thousand. I'll tell you a funny story though, um, 394 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: which was not much money van horn now, but it 395 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: was enough that I could like live. That was it. 396 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: I mean I was twenty three years old or something, 397 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: so you don't really need much. And I really encourage 398 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: people when they're younger, don't worry about money. Plenty of 399 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: time to worry about money. The money will find you 400 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: if you. If you, this is the time to not care. Right, 401 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: You get a roommate, you drink sheep beer, you live 402 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: in it, it doesn't matter. But I do remember I 403 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: actually out to have this job interview. I went to 404 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: the Valparaiso I think it's called like the Videt Messengers, 405 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: this newspaper in Valparaiso, Indiana, you know val Paris University 406 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: of So I go into this interview. I think I 407 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: was in Indianapolis. Then there was a sports job and 408 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm in the thing and the guy goes on, we 409 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: want to hire you. Um, we can offer you fifteen 410 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. It was really awesomely fifteen thousand dollars, guys, 411 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: that's like less than like like seven dollars an hour. Again, 412 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, I used to work construction and make more. 413 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, I was just like and I must have 414 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: been so stunned and quitted. This town was so cheap. 415 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: I probably gonna live there for fifteen thousand dollars. So 416 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: I was like, I gotta college. You m works. So 417 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: I was like, I can't take that job. You gotta 418 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: pay any more like that, and I think I just 419 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 1: said it so boldly. He's like okay, So gets up 420 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: and he walks all across the news room, like into 421 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: the publisher's office, like let me go check. So I'm like, 422 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: oh man, look at this negotiating like I am styling, right, 423 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm killing this right. So he comes back. I swear 424 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: it swearing story is true. Right, we can give you 425 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand, one dollar two bucks a week, two bucks 426 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: a week. I was like, what, uh, So I didn't 427 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: go there, but um, I could have, but actually I 428 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: would have been better off there than like even stayed 429 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: in Chicago. Because you if you're a writer. You want 430 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: to write, you have to learn how to write, and 431 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: you have to learn how to report. You have to 432 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: learn all of us. You have to you just the 433 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: guys who never do all that stuff. Man, it's it's 434 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: a tough it's tough. Like I just you can be 435 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: really good without going through some of those grinds and 436 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: cover trying to find out how to make a windy 437 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: across country meet interesting. But man, that's a good skill 438 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: to have, you know, like you just to just jump 439 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: to where it's easy. I don't know. I'm glad I 440 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: went that round. So be sure to catch live editions 441 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: about Kicked the Coverage with Clay Travis week days at 442 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: six am Eastern, three am Pacific. We're talking to Dan Wetzel. 443 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: This is the Winds and Lost his podcast. I'm Clay Travis. Okay, 444 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: so five, you're living in Detroit. Uh, what do you want? 445 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: You're writing for the Basketball Times? What do you do? Like? What? What? 446 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: What is your job there? And how long do you 447 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: stay there? Um? Yes, I'm writing like feature articles, just 448 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: all sorts of different stuff. But it was just opening 449 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: up all sorts of like opportunities to do a lot 450 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: of radio TV because you're just like a guest or 451 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: you're meeting all these people. So like one of the 452 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: story of the Nfasketball Times was on UM Don Haskins 453 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: and and uh and you tap, he's a head coach 454 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: at you Tap, which is the Texas Western, which in 455 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six was the first UM all black starting 456 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: lineup when they were Texas Western. So I did this 457 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: long story on Don Haskins, got to know him as 458 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: a friend and like not immediately, it takes time, but 459 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: that eventually led to the book Glory Road, and it 460 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: was a Disney movie Glory Road. Um. There was like 461 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: opportunities I did. UM. I covered a ton of a basketball. 462 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: I covered all these guys in the NBA when they 463 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: were like in sixteen and seventeen years old. We would 464 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: do all the recruiting. But instead of just doing recruiting 465 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: like where you're going to school, what's your top five? 466 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: You know where you're gonna visit. I I just got 467 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: to know all the figures in it, and I ended 468 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: up doing the book. I wrote a book with with 469 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: Don Yeager, who was a sports illustrating than called UM 470 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: Soul Influence, all about how shoot companies and we're dumping 471 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: all this money into a basketball and it's like completely 472 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: corrupt and bananas and um, so I was doing it 473 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: was just leading to all these other things because you 474 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: had the opportunity to do these stories. So that was 475 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: kind of a real benefit of basketball times. I think 476 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: I was there at about two thousand maybe something like that. 477 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: But we just have so much freedom. Ary Donald was 478 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: just a great editor, um and just was like, you know, 479 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: go go fail, go fail and try things. And that's 480 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: that's why that job was so good for So you're 481 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: in Detroit at the time, living as your base. Are 482 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: you traveling a lot to write these stories? Yeah, like 483 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: once a month we go I go somewhere in college 484 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: sports or like the AU circuit maybe maybe like once 485 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: one weekend a month, or you know, a few days 486 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: here and there. There was a shoe string budget, but 487 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: we would make it work. So the internet is also 488 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: starting to grow, like these are some of the early 489 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: kind of you know, launch points of the Internet. Are 490 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: you still writing for that A O L front page 491 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: sports articles? I did that for a while. I don't 492 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: know quite how that ended. I don't really remember anymore. Um. 493 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: I also, yeah, I was freelancing for for all sorts 494 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: of different places. Um, I mean any I would write 495 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: from you know, like all those like f F on 496 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: book ever anything and do it would do a lot 497 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: of Internet. I was a huge believer in the Internet. Um, 498 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: I was freelancing for um this website or even kind 499 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: of work for him. But for a little whilcome hoops 500 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: tv dot com, which is basically the N one mixtape. 501 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: They created this basketball website where we basically could watch 502 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: video of basketball on the Internet. It's a problem with 503 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: everyone at dial up and see our videos. No, it's 504 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: true because for people who don't remember, it was almost 505 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: impossible to watch a video on the Internet. Even the 506 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: load pictures would forever. So because everybody's working on the 507 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: slow speeds of the dial up Internet. So you're aware 508 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: of the rise of the Internet. At the same time, 509 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: you're not making that much money. I think you also 510 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: started the Moonlight in a in a casino, right, Well, 511 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: I was gonna get married. So at this point, I'm 512 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, like kind of like twenty six or something. 513 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm not making much money. I've written written soul Influence, 514 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: but I needed like something steady, and so they were 515 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: opening casinos in Detroit. So I Uh. I was like, wow, 516 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: if I get this, if I get a job at 517 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: a casino, like, it's very I needed a job that 518 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: I didn't have to take like the work home, and 519 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: I didn't want to go back to work construction or 520 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: something that's exhausting, like not the casino feeling. It can't 521 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: be softening. But I just needed something like flexible hour, 522 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: all this different stuff. So I went to the thing. 523 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: I went to. UM as the part story, it was 524 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: called Greek Town Casino College. They're trying to trying to 525 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: train the dealers, and they literally called it the Greek 526 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: Town Casino College. They converted like part of a parking 527 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: garage in downtown Detroit where we would go and learn 528 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: how to deal. It's the uh the you know how 529 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: Pepper nine wins most scenic campugn Yes, yes, yes, this 530 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: is the opposite of that, because exactly we should have 531 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: been ranked laughs. Um yeah, And I majored in craps 532 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: and blackjack double major. Um. Crabs is harder than we 533 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: can laugh. But craps is harder than it looks. Um. 534 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, I was. I was. I was a certified dealer. 535 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: My casino didn't open. I never actually worked in the casino. 536 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: I did deal some other games and some parties and stuff, 537 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: but the casino had some kind of like ownership shice 538 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: the owners, so they delayed our owners and and then 539 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: by then I had gotten a full time job at 540 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: CBS Sports Line. Well, I want to get to never 541 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: actually worked. I want to get to that in a minute. 542 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: But how long did you train to be a craps 543 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: and uh and blackjack dealer? I don't know. I think 544 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: might have been like you might take like six weeks, 545 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: maybe eight weeks. I don't know. It's a quick quick college, 546 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: not not not a not too long than you think. Yeah, 547 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: I mean like I mean there's a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, 548 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: they come and trying to trick you, all the guys 549 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: like you have to guard your money. You can't be wrong. 550 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: Um yeah, blackjack not that tricky, but crafts is wild, man, 551 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: Like you get enough people on there, and they would 552 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: we were doing we would play and then while someone 553 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: was trying to deal, and then like of course we're 554 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: just constantly trying to screw with everybody because that was 555 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: what we were supposed to do. So it's like throwing 556 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: bets in late or throwing like the worst possible odds 557 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: bets like just you know at three coins, you know, 558 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: three bucks on something like the odds are all messed 559 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: up for trying to steal money. So yeah, it's harder 560 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: than it looks. You said you also work construction, but 561 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: you know when you were younger, what kind of construction 562 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: work did you do? Ah? We did like playing like 563 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: sewage lines, and we weren't built a couple office parks 564 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: things like that, like how like we put in the sidewalks. Um. 565 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: I worked for the just a control the owner of it. 566 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: So we would do just about eight but a lot 567 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: of road work, a lot of a lot of jackhamhering, 568 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: a lot of digging ditches. I mean nothing you know 569 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: as a as a high school college kids, So I 570 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: mean you can literally tell your kids now like you 571 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: worked as a dig ditcher. I did. I did dig ditches. 572 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Firewood. I had also had a bad jobs. 573 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: I could run a backhouse, I mean have a license, 574 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: but I couldn't do it. Yeah, I mean there's not 575 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: very many probably sportswriters who can run a back oh 576 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: and also working craps couldn't and I probably could not 577 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: run the back home. Now I would probably screw it up, 578 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: but at one point I could dig all with the backup. 579 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: So you are preparing like for whatever you need to 580 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: do to have a consistent job, and then you've been 581 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: talking about how you have like kind of you're you're 582 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: paying attention to the rise of the internet. How do 583 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: you end up working at CBS sports Line which I 584 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: think was CBS dot sports line dot com if I'm 585 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: not mistaken at the time it was yeah, or even 586 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: just sports Line. Yeah, I think you might be. One 587 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: of the problems was I was like, so, I was 588 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: trying to get like a job in a newspaper, but 589 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: newspapers are different than like the first off, you could 590 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: never tell a newspaper editor you worked like working in 591 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: a moonlighting at the crafts dealer, like that would have 592 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: killed you, um, because they wanted like everyone to go 593 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: to Northwestern and like Colombia and like you had. If 594 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: you didn't have like all the right connections, it was 595 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: hard to break in. And I by working at them 596 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: like Basketball Times and Ivan when I worked at Shaba 597 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: Tribute and I could get like everyone's interested and hired me. 598 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: But once I left, they weren't interested and hired me anymore. 599 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: And you had to like just you couldn't tell people 600 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: like all that stuff with secret. I didn't tell people 601 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: for years that. I was like I went to Casio College. 602 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: Um now I just don't care. They can't do anything 603 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: to me. Now it's no newspaper writers left. But at 604 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: the time it was all like I mean there was. 605 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: They were gatekeepers. They were gatekeepers to the access to Oh. 606 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: I was on the wrong side of the gate man. 607 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: I could not get through the gate. I couldn't get anything. 608 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: So I was scrapping around for Internet and stuff like that. 609 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: But one thing is I was I knew how I 610 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: knew how powerful the internet could be. And all I 611 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: wanted was like a good Internet job. And I to 612 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: the credit of uh Sky, Steve Miller, Mark Swanson and 613 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: the late Craig Stanky was his name. Um down at 614 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: sports Line. They did not care where I weren't. They 615 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: just wanted me. They were like this guy hustles and 616 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: he had tons of connections and like college and a 617 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: basketball like I had every I knew every college stattt 618 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: a system in the country and every head coach pretty much. 619 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: I all the different people and that they saw the 620 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: value in that, so they hired me to be uh 621 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: national college basketball writer at sports Line, and they didn't 622 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: really care about all the you know, I didn't. I 623 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: didn't have the right this, that or the other thing, 624 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: and that that was the big break or else I 625 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: probably would not be doing this at all because I 626 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: was like twenty years old, and it's like at some 627 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: point you're like, all right, I mean it's a sports right, 628 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: and it's actun s work by now, Like how long 629 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: do you go like this is not I'm not like 630 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: this is like I'm about to start my reson and 631 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: see as a doctor, Like it's that's right, and I 632 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: should be I should be able to make this work. Now. 633 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: If I'm not, I gotta get something else. It's interesting 634 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned that because, to the credit of at least 635 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: two of those three guys, they got me started writing 636 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: when I had no pedigree whatsoever either. I was writing 637 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: on my own site and I wasn't even getting paid. 638 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: They were just running my articles back in like two 639 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: thousand five ish. So we'll circle back around to that 640 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: in a minute. But I do think it's an interesting 641 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: point for people out there listening, because this podcast is 642 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,719 Speaker 1: called Wins and Losses. You kind of saw an advantage 643 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: because one reason you had an opportunity on the internet, 644 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: and why I had an opportunity to tuning on the 645 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: internet is because we didn't have that pedigree. Because if 646 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: we had had that pedigree, we probably would have gone 647 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: to newspapers and they would have hired us. The newspaper 648 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: guys didn't want to go to the Internet yet, right 649 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: Like they were like, oh, this Internet is a fad. 650 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: You don't get paid as much money. I'm not sure 651 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: how it's gonna work out. It's not as part prestigious 652 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: to be writing on some random website. Like I even 653 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: remember when I was writing at FanHouse, guys sitting around saying, like, 654 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: what's our circulation, like asking the editors, and they're like, well, 655 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean the whole internet, you know, 656 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: like is anybody can go everywhere. But you had these ideas, 657 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: you had these different fiefdom so to speak, in newspapers 658 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: back in the day. And this is gonna sound an 659 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: equated to a lot of our listeners, but you know, 660 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: we kind of are on the tail edge of this 661 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 1: where you and I can remember waking up early enough, 662 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: uh you know, you check a newspaper to see who 663 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: won a game, right, Um, and now that's like crazy 664 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: to my kids. Yeah. Yeah, for the weather, the movie times, yeah, 665 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: movie times, playing at the movie theater, stuff like that. 666 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: It was your access to all information. Yeah, and see 667 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: what's playing. You had all these different islands of dominance. 668 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: So and the the size of the newspaper was in 669 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: large large part a function of the marketplace itself of 670 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: the city. So, like you mentioned the Chicago Tribune, but 671 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: you also had these newspapers competing in the markets, and 672 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: there was pretty good salaries to be made back in 673 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 1: the day. Right, if you were working in the eighties, 674 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: you can make a good living in the newspaper business. Well, 675 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: I think you always good. I mean, and even if 676 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: you still have a job in newspaper industry put unfortunately, 677 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: but all the way through, all the way up through 678 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: the nineties, things are going well, especially if you're a 679 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: good columnist everywhere else. So you get the job at 680 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: CBS Sports or sports line dot com or whatever it's called, 681 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,439 Speaker 1: and you're in your late twenties. And I remember reading 682 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: this when I was in college. I remember reading your 683 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: column because there still wasn't that many people out there 684 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: writing regular, regular pieces on the internet, right, I mean, 685 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: it just wasn't that competitive, remember you, Andy Kats, Like 686 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: who did you compete with that was writing about college 687 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 1: basketball back in that day? Because I was at George 688 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: Washington University and we were pretty decent in college basketball 689 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: and I always wanted to see the top twenty five 690 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: every week. And like, I think they hired Dennis Dodd 691 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: pretty early at sports Line. I mean he's obviously been 692 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: there forever, but like, who did you consider your competitors 693 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: on the internet at that point in time? Do you 694 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: remember Denna Dennis was at that, uh sports Line? And 695 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: who didn't mainly college football? And it was basically Andy 696 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: Chats and I, yeah, was about it, and and then 697 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: there were all these newspaper guys. But the thing that 698 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: Andy and I and Andy event the friend Noe biby, 699 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: But what was we talked about it? We still do 700 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: like we were like, okay, distinction, here's the thing. Every 701 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: coach in the country can read this, yeah, right, like 702 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: someone that they may have had to print it out, Okay, 703 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: Like I don't think that Dean Smith is somebody who 704 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: levels you know, these guys or on the internet. And 705 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: he shutting. But it went to every went everywhere it 706 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: is amazing, right, you could read it anywhere. They had 707 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: to even have mobile then, but the and and you 708 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: could write as long as you wanted, and you could 709 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: write as much as you wanted. So there was none 710 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: of this like, well you can't fit it in, like 711 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: if you weren't working for you know, the Scholarks Tribune 712 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: and some incident happened that U C l A or 713 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: whatever you may be, it halfly really big to make it. 714 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: We're just quite about everything. She is right right, right, 715 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: right right, which, of course how the internet works. Put 716 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: back then it was like, gosh, i'll re stores you write, 717 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: and what do you like? But I didn't care because 718 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: I was just like, this is an unbelievable opportunity to 719 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: get known. And and then really quickly you could call 720 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: anybody and they call you back. And when you have 721 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: the access to it, to the coaches and then the 722 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: players and everybody, you know, it just it just blew 723 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: up really quick. And and so I don't know, I 724 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: don't think I knew my traffic numbers back then, but 725 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're very good. But inside college basketball where 726 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: I was writing, and and college administrators, they all knew. 727 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: Everybody knew who you were and so, but you would 728 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: still go to like the n s A basketball TOURNT 729 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 1: and they do like, well, we don't have a sheet 730 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: for you because your circulation is like they were so 731 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: hung up on the old school, like you couldn't get 732 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: into some places, and you feel like this is absurd. 733 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: Like I remember there was a conference that I think 734 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: it's called like the Midwest Collegiate Conference. It's now it 735 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: kind of became the Horizon League. Like there was like 736 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: a lot of those like like Butler back in the 737 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: day might have been in it or something like that. 738 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: I remember trying to go to the conference basketball team. 739 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: They wouldn't give me a sheet because I didn't have 740 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: a print publication along with the internet site. And I 741 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: was like, are you great? And so it was like 742 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: it was so you were fighting like that. But then 743 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: I could call any coach in the league and they 744 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: called back and can men. So it's just there was 745 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: just this huge disconnect. So the internet was just static 746 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: aneral's reading it, and obviously they still do, but it 747 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: was just like this whole wide open thing. And and 748 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: like you said, like if this had gone to a 749 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: full competition on who the best person was at the time, 750 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have gotten a job. So my advantage 751 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: was I was like a hundred stories a week. Fox 752 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. 753 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot 754 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: com and within the I Heart Radio app search f 755 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: s R to listen live. You would grind. But also, 756 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: and we're talking to Dan, what'sall on Clay Travis? This 757 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: is the Wins and Losses podcast. You recognize something that 758 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people didn't, which is in 759 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: the past, and it still occurs. Right Like the local 760 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: newspaper people are obsessed with what somebody in that local 761 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: newspaper market rites. But a lot of times, and you 762 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: know this from from your experience, you can end up 763 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: in a situation where there's not that much interesting to 764 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: write about in the local news market. But if you're 765 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: writing about college basketball, there's pretty much always something that's 766 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: popping on a national level. And those guys also who 767 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: are reading you, both the coaches and administrators never everybody else, 768 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: are curious about things outside of their own world. And 769 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: so you had almost you and Andy Katz a monopoly 770 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: on the entirety of national college basketball coverage from a 771 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: writing perspective, which theoretically a lot of other people could 772 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: have seen, but they didn't because they were may be 773 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: worried about trying to protect what they already had. Yeah, 774 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: it's probably some of that, and then some of it 775 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: would have been like, you know, you were gonna I 776 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: don't remember what I got paid. I was certainly getting 777 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: paid much better at that point, but it wasn't like 778 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: huge money. So it was like, those are good jobs, 779 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 1: but yeah, people didn't want to take a pay cut 780 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: or I don't know, it's very comfortable work. Those have 781 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: been around like a hundred years, right, you know, those 782 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: are like good comfortable jobs. But yeah, the ability to 783 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: have an impact was much much greater on the Internet, 784 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: just not much much greater. Now. I want to go 785 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: to the credentialing thing because I think it also establishes 786 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: the paradigm shift. And and I remember dealing with this 787 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: a lot writing online. Is they all of these schools 788 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,399 Speaker 1: panicked when the Internet started, and they're like, oh my god, 789 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna have everybody who has a wet email address 790 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: is going to be arguing they're a member of the media, 791 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: and so uh, they will credential all these tiny newspapers, 792 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: these little tiny community newspapers with no issues whatsoever because 793 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: quote unquote they are a print publication. But if you 794 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: were on the Internet, you weren't allowed to be uh, 795 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: to be credential. And I remember like all sorts of craziness, like, 796 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: for instance, and I'll get to Yahoo, how you ended 797 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: up there in a sec. But Yahoo is a big deal, right, 798 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: like a massive, massive website. And the way they would 799 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: credential Yahoo was or like CBS sports Line. I remember, 800 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: like CBS sports Line did a print publication one year 801 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: for like uh, college basketball or college football magazine, right, 802 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: And it's kind of a funny thing to think about anyway, 803 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: but I guess it was an advertising point for them, 804 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: and they would credential the CB sports Line sometimes because 805 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: of that print magazine because they were already letting in 806 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: Athlon and Lindy's and all the other people who do 807 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: the you know, yearly print publication. But that was crazy, right. 808 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: You fought those battles for years. It was unbelievable and 809 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: trying to explain what you are arguing, um, And I 810 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: can tell you a million stories. The hardest one was 811 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: baseball MLB. But I got to Yahoo and I'm jumping 812 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: a little bit ahead, but holy cow, because they were 813 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 1: so old school and they'd always say, well, are you 814 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: in the Baseball Writers Association? Okay, so he've been this 815 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: baseball right Association? Like no, well, I go, how do 816 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: you get in that? Like where you have to cover 817 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty games? I'll be like, well, I'm 818 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: the only guy at the website, Like I didn't want 819 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: to cover the World Series, right, like the NFL the NBA. 820 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: Don't sit there and go, well were you at the 821 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: Sacramento Kings Timberwolves game? Yeah, be a final car that 822 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: we want attention MLB. So one time I was a 823 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: spring training I'm gonna spare this guy that's the name 824 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: because he really isn't a bad guy. But this one 825 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: guy at the at the Mets says to me, you know, you, guys, 826 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: here's what needs to happen at this time. Joah, who 827 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 1: has probably had a had a it was worth about 828 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: fifty billion dollars okay, because you know ya who used 829 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: to say and he goes, you guys need like the 830 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: Sporting News to buy you so you have a print publication, 831 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: And I go, how about we buy the Mets? What 832 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: are you talking about I mean a fifty billion dollar 833 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: market cap. Sporting News is worth like fifteen million dollars. 834 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: And he's thinking to I mean, it does kind of 835 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: speak to the difficulty that people had understanding the Internet 836 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: that he's like, oh, Sporting News should buy Yahoo. Yeah, 837 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: who could buy every major League Baseball team. That's where 838 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: we could have done. Could have bought them all if 839 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: they was for sale. You know, we're worth more than 840 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: the league. Yeah. I was like, okay, I don't even know. 841 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: I was I'm not talking to a rational human being 842 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: at this point, like they're just we're not speaking the 843 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: same language. He's back, I guess I'm not going to 844 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: spring train and of the Mets baseball would be absolute worst. 845 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: And I hated covering baseball, and once I didn't have to, 846 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 1: I never covered it again. So you hated everyone in baseball. 847 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: You're at CBS. How many years do you write covering 848 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: college basketball? I think it was like three? And then uh, 849 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: and then what happens? Yeah, and then what happens? So 850 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: then so a guy knew from college, Sam Silverstein calls me. 851 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: He just became a sports editor of Yahoo Sports, which 852 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: at the time was like they had a fantasy game, 853 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: but like they would just beinglike when need to get 854 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: into original content, and he's like, you should come work here. 855 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,720 Speaker 1: And I was like, now, at this point, at Yahoo 856 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: was a I didn't even know if the ad mayde 857 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: had a fantasy game. Probably a fantasy game. But it 858 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: was a search engine. It was a search engine. That's all. 859 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: It was email and search. But they would put five 860 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 1: headlines on the old Yahoo drunk page and he's like, dude, 861 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: like these stories are incredible, We're gonna do this thing. 862 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't know. I was just 863 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: like you know what this is, Like this could be 864 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,320 Speaker 1: really big, right, like this this is like a startup, 865 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: but it's got fifty billion. It's a fifty billion dollar 866 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: startup that makes tons of parting. And we're like, no 867 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: one's even gonna know whether we're not doing a good job, 868 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: Like we had time to try to like build this 869 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: thing out. And so I switched from CBS Sports too 870 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,479 Speaker 1: Yahoo and everyone was like you're crazy. I mean, people 871 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: are like I like, that's a search engine, and that's 872 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: why could never people understood like the CBS Sports thing. Eventually, 873 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: but the idea of the search engine wanted a media 874 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: path forget it, um, but I did that and then 875 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: we had we had to like restart all the fights, 876 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 1: but the the traffic and a bout of people and 877 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: all the all the assets we have, We're just incredible 878 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: and the opportunity to like, let's create a website. So 879 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: were you the first Yeah, whoo's I mean they might 880 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: have had Fantasy sports and Luis, but were you the 881 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: first first sports writer? And probably I was the first 882 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: like journalist writer at all the whole place, like, no, 883 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: they didn't have moves, was just like an ATC dead nothing. 884 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: So what ye what year would this have been? Like 885 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: two thousand three? Do you ask anybody to talk because 886 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: two thousand three it's still really early days of the 887 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,800 Speaker 1: internet right there? Aren't you said people thought you were crazy? 888 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: Did you almost inherently just trust your instinct on that move? 889 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: Or was there somebody you talked to other than the 890 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: guy who called you and said, hey, you know, we 891 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: got huge sight traffic here, we want to make a 892 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: go of it. What made you you think willing to 893 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: take that risk that other people weren't. I remember talking 894 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: to uh Adrian ward Strowski, who was working band at 895 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: like the Bergen record in New Jersey and is a 896 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 1: longtime friend of mine. Um long before the worlds bombs, Yes, 897 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: um um. And I remember he thought he's a very 898 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: smart guy. And I remember he thought it was a 899 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: pretty good idea and that that really helped. There's another 900 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: guy gave Scott, a longtime friend of mine, works at 901 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,760 Speaker 1: the US and he thought it was a good idea, 902 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: and I knew. I just felt like, you know what, 903 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: what the heck, let's try this. Um. I kind of 904 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: felt like, what's the worst thing that could happen? UM, 905 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. I just to me, it was like, 906 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 1: there's so much potential here, and I was kind of 907 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: the other thing in two thousand three was like I 908 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,279 Speaker 1: was covering college basketball at that point before the one 909 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: and done, like the last year there was Lebron's senior 910 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: year in high school. I was like spent more time 911 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: covering high Lebron like nobody was going to college, none 912 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 1: of the players, and so college bess was like Lane. 913 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: I still a lot of fans, but it was like 914 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: this wasn't as interesting, Like I believe me, when they 915 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: get rid of the one and done college that was 916 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: not gonna be remotely as big of a dealing now, 917 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: it's really not that big of a deal now, so 918 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to Like I thought like, well, if I 919 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: can cover the NFL and I can cover baseball and 920 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: n b A and we was in the Olympics, we 921 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: had all these plans. I was like, that would be 922 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: a good opportunity for me to get out of just 923 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: being a college fastival writer. So that was part of 924 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: it too, because I kind of thought college basketball in 925 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 1: trouble and like like back in the day they used 926 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,879 Speaker 1: to be like at least be great. Like tennis writers, Well, 927 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: there's no job to be a tennis writer. So if 928 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: you want to be a sportswriter in America, you better 929 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 1: cover football or or the or the NBA. Like it 930 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: this a couple of baseball guys, but like Garris is 931 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,879 Speaker 1: in So that was a big part of it too, 932 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: was like I'm gonna be able to spread out and 933 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: do different things if if this doesn't work at Yashop. 934 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: But I really felt like if we did it right, 935 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,840 Speaker 1: it would work. And Sam Um was super really smart 936 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: guy and a really good guys at the Path twelve 937 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 1: now and Um we just kind of were like, I 938 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: think we can make this work and so I was like, 939 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: what the heck? Right, So sixteen years you've been at Yah. 940 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,399 Speaker 1: Who sports now? And the people out there who think 941 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: back at what Yahoo was like back in the day. 942 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean the amount of site traffic that Yahoo dot 943 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: com would do, and that MSN dot com and a 944 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: O L dot com and they still do, even though 945 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: those three sites are not as popular now as they 946 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: wore back then. I mean they were insanely popular. But 947 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: you're talking about Yahoo in a pre Google universe, right, 948 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I don't even think Google had been 949 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: founded yet hardly or is only a couple of years old. Um, 950 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: So you go to Yahoo, what is your first Like 951 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: how do you even get started? You just start pitching 952 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: ideas on stories? Like what is that process? Like, well, Bertally, yeah, 953 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,480 Speaker 1: we're like we'd start writing store like we had to 954 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: set up everything, and we had to set up a 955 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: news desk like comanitor Like it was just a lot 956 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,960 Speaker 1: of planning and then we're trying to find people to 957 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 1: let you go cover things because that would give credibility. 958 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: But then you could just you know, like anything like 959 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, NBA Free Agency or whatever, like whatever's going down. 960 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: I remember the US Open tennis I covered that. It 961 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,879 Speaker 1: was like one of the first things. It was like, yeah, 962 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: well you can come cover cover tennis tournament in New York. Um, 963 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: there's a lot of like meeting and like we just 964 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 1: we had to plot out what we're gonna do. I mean, 965 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: it was it was it was a total startup we had, 966 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,719 Speaker 1: but we had the opportunity to do or anything. So 967 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: it was like what kind of sight do we want 968 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: to be? How much journalism do we want to do? Um? 969 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: You know, eventually it was like what positions would we add? 970 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,719 Speaker 1: The Mexical while Sam was really really smart guy and 971 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: he was like, we're going to cover the Olympics, okay, 972 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: and I seemed radical with one guy. And so he's 973 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: like we're going You're going to the two thousand for Olympics. 974 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: And he's like, the thing is it would spark all 975 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,239 Speaker 1: like all the people at Sonny Island in California would 976 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,200 Speaker 1: be excited about the Olympics. And if we're covering the Olympics, 977 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: it would like make an impact in turn renally, and 978 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,360 Speaker 1: then if we do a good job, that will create 979 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: like internal investment because like, yeah, who had all the 980 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: money so we could do anything you want. It. We 981 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,280 Speaker 1: just needed more, so we're gonna be better, like putting 982 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: our eggs in that. So that was a big one 983 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: internally because when we did a good job at the 984 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,200 Speaker 1: at the Athens Olympics UM and we would get selling 985 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: our stories on the front page and we're kind of 986 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,879 Speaker 1: building up the sports page that that that was kind 987 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: of a cap for the first year and then there 988 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: and then, like I think internally they're like, yeah, you 989 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,279 Speaker 1: can hire like a couple more people or want don't 990 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 1: you try that? It grew a lot of things and 991 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,480 Speaker 1: it was very smart because I had never thought conceptually. 992 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,439 Speaker 1: I think it just wasn't in my wheelhouse to think 993 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: like internal pr right, like how how are you being 994 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,399 Speaker 1: seeing inside your company? Because a big company can can 995 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,240 Speaker 1: put their resources wherever. So that was kind of an 996 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: interesting lesson that we still try to do. So you're 997 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 1: at the Athens Olympics, it's two thousand four, you're representing 998 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,920 Speaker 1: Yahoo Sports. You're basically the only employee. How in the 999 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:08,160 Speaker 1: world you decide what to cover? Right? But I mean 1000 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: for people out there who are listening, I think they 1001 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:11,840 Speaker 1: have this idea and I want to get into this 1002 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,240 Speaker 1: you a little bit more. But when when the story 1003 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: is packaged for you, and you go and you read it, 1004 00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,400 Speaker 1: you think to yourself, oh, of course they went to 1005 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,440 Speaker 1: go cover this. But effectively, when you arrive at the Olympics, 1006 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,320 Speaker 1: it's like you're given a huge menu, your one random 1007 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,319 Speaker 1: dude in Greece, and you've got to figure out, oh 1008 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,840 Speaker 1: my god, what are the stories here? What am I 1009 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: gonna do on a day to day basis. It's not 1010 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: like there's some you're not NBC, right, who's putting on 1011 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,960 Speaker 1: the Olympics that has a thousand people there and they 1012 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: all sit around a table and they're like, oh, well, 1013 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: we know we're gonna cover gymnastics, and then we're gonna 1014 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,840 Speaker 1: do this, and then we're gonna Mean like they have 1015 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,040 Speaker 1: everything mapped out, you know, a year in advance. I mean, 1016 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,279 Speaker 1: I know, Fox, for instance, has the Super Bowl this 1017 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: year coming up, and they're already you know, they've already 1018 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,359 Speaker 1: hired hundreds of people, they got their cameras and their 1019 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: sets already scheduled. I mean, you're a random dude just 1020 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: going over to Greece and you're like, yeah, I'm writing 1021 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: for this website that nobody knows. How do you decide 1022 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,959 Speaker 1: how to cover the Olympics. Well, yeah, he's just trying 1023 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,719 Speaker 1: to pick your spots, you know. And then if even 1024 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: if you're not, like if something big happen and you're 1025 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,000 Speaker 1: not actually in the arena, you just right about it anyway. 1026 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, it would be like there's a track need 1027 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,800 Speaker 1: that dymastics need to swim me, there's basketball game, there's this. 1028 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,920 Speaker 1: You know, you're just you're just trying to guess on 1029 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,320 Speaker 1: what the best story is gonna be. Also, like what 1030 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,360 Speaker 1: can you do that you're going to differentiate? Like that 1031 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,720 Speaker 1: was kind of a big thing, Like it's like value 1032 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: over replacement player, you know, like in in in uh 1033 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:44,439 Speaker 1: in baseball, Like what what can you do that will 1034 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 1: stand out and make it work you being there? So 1035 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,720 Speaker 1: sometimes it's not just being at the at the big event, 1036 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 1: it's it's being at the right place or where the 1037 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,439 Speaker 1: best story is or something like that. That was something 1038 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: I learned in the magazine. So it's like it's just 1039 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 1: going to the biggest games doesn't always mean you're in 1040 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,799 Speaker 1: the right spot. It's it's a lot easier to make 1041 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,320 Speaker 1: an impact when no other not many reporters are around, 1042 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: and like being at the super Bowl, Like I love 1043 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: being at the super BOWLK like the challenge of competing 1044 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,480 Speaker 1: as all the other writers, but like there's two thousand 1045 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,200 Speaker 1: people there, you know, So it's it's to to differentiate 1046 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 1: yourself as a real challenge. So sometimes you're better off 1047 00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: at something else. Um, but I don't know, man, I 1048 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: didn't know what I was doing. I didn't I was 1049 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: not a very good column to stare back back then, 1050 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 1: I would try to read all the other guys that 1051 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,440 Speaker 1: basically get my brains beating men every day. But you know, 1052 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: whatever we're trying. So I definitely like I never went 1053 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,040 Speaker 1: to like the all the touristy spots. Everyone's like, did 1054 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 1: you go there? I don't even know what all this 1055 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: stuff is in Grease, But I would now go to anything. 1056 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,719 Speaker 1: I literally went in nothing today eight I would once 1057 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,720 Speaker 1: it has worked. I was just like, so we were panicked. 1058 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,359 Speaker 1: We're like, we gotta make we gotta make this work. 1059 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,279 Speaker 1: We run all the way to Grease. You mentioned that 1060 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,759 Speaker 1: you didn't think you were very good, Um, you know, 1061 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: initially on the columnist business and and and I probably 1062 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,919 Speaker 1: should ask this question earlier. I don't. I think there's 1063 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people out there listening to us right 1064 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: now that don't even spend that much time on the 1065 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,719 Speaker 1: distinction between news and opinion, right, and so much of 1066 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,879 Speaker 1: it has gotten mixed up today that it's sometimes hard 1067 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: and you sometimes get confused. Even if you're just a 1068 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 1: regular person. You're reading, you're like, wait a minute, is 1069 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,360 Speaker 1: this a news article or is this somebody's opinion about 1070 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,520 Speaker 1: the news? And I feel like there used to be 1071 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: a more substantial difference. But you are hired to be 1072 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,320 Speaker 1: in the opinion business right when you go to work Yahoo, 1073 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,000 Speaker 1: but also when you're at the Olympics, you're also kind 1074 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: of in the news business because if a big news 1075 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 1: story breaks out, that's something that people want to read about. Two, 1076 00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: how did you straddle that line and how complicated was it? 1077 00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,960 Speaker 1: And were you thinking in your mind is this a 1078 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,320 Speaker 1: news part piece or is this an opinion piece? Because 1079 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,560 Speaker 1: I would imagine early on when you're at Yahoo, you 1080 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,920 Speaker 1: kind of have to fill every different aspect of the news, right, 1081 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,560 Speaker 1: whether it's an opinion piece or just a straight you know, 1082 00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: like something happened here and it's a news story. Well, 1083 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,759 Speaker 1: I would try to write an opinion piece, but I 1084 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,680 Speaker 1: would probably just not trust my opinion, so make it 1085 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,360 Speaker 1: too loosy so how do you come Yeah, so how 1086 00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: do you come to trust your opinion? How did you 1087 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 1: work through that to get more comfortable? Because I think 1088 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,720 Speaker 1: you're the best national opinion writing writer in the business 1089 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: of sports now, But how did you find that voice 1090 00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,759 Speaker 1: and how did you work your way into it? Yeah? 1091 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,400 Speaker 1: Well thank you, but yeah, doing it and then reading 1092 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,560 Speaker 1: the other people, so like you know, you'd be there 1093 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 1: and like Bill Platsky's a phenomenal, phenomenal sports columnists from 1094 00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 1: the l A Times, and you know, you'd be at 1095 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,680 Speaker 1: the same thing and you just you'd read his the 1096 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,600 Speaker 1: next thing and to be like I got my asking 1097 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,759 Speaker 1: like why do I suck it right? This disaster right right? 1098 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,520 Speaker 1: And I was like why I didn't even think of this, 1099 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 1: Like I didn't trust it or I can't even remember, 1100 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 1: but you O'Connor, who might for care? I mean, I 1101 00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: just everybody. I mean, that was when korn Heiser and 1102 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,359 Speaker 1: Will Bond were righting. I mean, Bob Ryan, like all 1103 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,120 Speaker 1: these guys that are kind of all on TV now, 1104 00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 1: older guys, those guys slaughter you, Dan Lebatar, Holy Cock 1105 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,279 Speaker 1: and LeBatard right a column um just phenomenal and and 1106 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,640 Speaker 1: they just bank like in an hour, they just kill you. 1107 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 1: And it's just like my column is not anywhere as 1108 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: good as this. So he just you know what, guy 1109 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: could tug anything. He's got to keep doing it. You know, 1110 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: what's that like ten thousand hour? You know, I'm glad, Well, 1111 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 1: you just I mean, there's just no he's gotta keep going. So, yeah, 1112 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,040 Speaker 1: it's a little rough some of them days. But but 1113 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, there's so many swings that at the Olympics 1114 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 1: or anywhere anything you're trying to do, and you still 1115 00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,040 Speaker 1: always kind of I don't know, you just trust yourself 1116 00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,920 Speaker 1: a little bit and you you kind of just figure out, 1117 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,600 Speaker 1: like what's truly interesting. I mean, I have some different 1118 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,320 Speaker 1: tricks I'd come up with. I always I always try 1119 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 1: to say, um, you know, like if if if I'm 1120 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,680 Speaker 1: driving home from the assignment wherever I'm at, and somebody 1121 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 1: calls me and my wife calls our friend go and 1122 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,920 Speaker 1: they go, what happened at at at the game denying 1123 00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,440 Speaker 1: or the events or whatever, what you do today? And 1124 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,880 Speaker 1: like it's the first thing I say, isn't the column 1125 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 1: that I didn't write the right column? Because sometimes you 1126 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, you just be like, wow, 1127 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,160 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe what you know, Kobe Bryant said after, 1128 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,960 Speaker 1: but then you ended up writing about like some inbound players. 1129 00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like what what you do. But 1130 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:22,880 Speaker 1: you see that a lot in sports writing or the 1131 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:24,600 Speaker 1: other thing that really helped me. I had actually did 1132 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:26,920 Speaker 1: a lot of talk radio. I had a talk radio 1133 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,760 Speaker 1: show briefly in Detroit, and that helps a lot. Talker 1134 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 1: everyone makes on the talk radio, but you have to 1135 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 1: be on topic, and you have to figure out a 1136 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,880 Speaker 1: topic that the listener wants to listen to or they 1137 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,240 Speaker 1: aren't listening, like they are hitting that button in one second. 1138 00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,400 Speaker 1: And that's a big Talk radio was a big training 1139 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,600 Speaker 1: ground too, because if you're on a bat, there's nothing 1140 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,960 Speaker 1: worse than a segment on talk radio, a bad talpic. 1141 00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,840 Speaker 1: You just you can just feel all the people clicking away. 1142 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,880 Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that because I always tell people advice. 1143 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,880 Speaker 1: You know, from a writing perspective, you do this too 1144 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,920 Speaker 1: for writers. Go on radio every opportunity you get, because 1145 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 1: it will crystallize oftentimes your central thesis as you talk 1146 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: through it. Right. And also if you're if you're if 1147 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,800 Speaker 1: you have a good ear, you can pick up on 1148 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,440 Speaker 1: what people care about. And I hear sometimes writers and 1149 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,840 Speaker 1: they'll say, oh, I don't like to do radio, or 1150 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't make the time to 1151 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: do radio. And my argument is radio is basically an 1152 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,160 Speaker 1: opportunity for you to advertise your audience and and create 1153 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,360 Speaker 1: people who care what you think, whether it's written or spoken. 1154 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,960 Speaker 1: And you've always done radio quite a bit, and I 1155 00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,440 Speaker 1: think there is a certain element of writers who sometimes 1156 00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,440 Speaker 1: look down on radio. I've always argued you should use 1157 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,439 Speaker 1: radio to lift your writing up even higher. Yeah, same 1158 00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,920 Speaker 1: with like you know, I mean people make fun of 1159 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,840 Speaker 1: like around the Horn and stuff like that or some 1160 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,920 Speaker 1: of those goos. But it's like they're they're almost always 1161 00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 1: really good on topic. Like I watch I don't watch 1162 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,880 Speaker 1: a lot of TVs. It's not the live events that 1163 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:03,440 Speaker 1: it's don't but sometimes and I'll watch, um, whatever Stephen 1164 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,840 Speaker 1: as at First Take or whatever Stephen A. Smith show 1165 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,160 Speaker 1: is on, Like they get right into their topics, like 1166 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,320 Speaker 1: and they get right to it, and it's a good 1167 01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,160 Speaker 1: the A Smith was a good called sports columnists to 1168 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: tell you that, Um, I don't think anyone like I 1169 01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: don't know how many people even remember. I guess he 1170 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:19,480 Speaker 1: reminds people every once a while, but he was a 1171 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,120 Speaker 1: good sports column. Um my first metim was coming Temple basketball. 1172 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,680 Speaker 1: Remember being like I'm gonna I'm gonna do this this 1173 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: and this is like he did at all Um, but 1174 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,360 Speaker 1: that's a guy that worked hard. And but they get 1175 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,000 Speaker 1: right on their voice really quick, and they get right 1176 01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,440 Speaker 1: they don't they don't do topics that you don't need 1177 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,880 Speaker 1: to do, and so it's there's there's a trick to it, 1178 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,960 Speaker 1: and and a lot of those shows are very good 1179 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 1: at it in big ways that maybe people don't. I don't. 1180 01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:48,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how many journals and students 1181 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,640 Speaker 1: listen to this thing, but there's a people will look 1182 01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: down on that. Like Stephen A. Smith is loud and 1183 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,720 Speaker 1: I'm highly entertaining. He's very very smart to get to 1184 01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,360 Speaker 1: right to the point and the point people listen to 1185 01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: the point. So what are we arguing about? Like, I 1186 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,320 Speaker 1: can't be Stephen A. Smith, but what he does is 1187 01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,400 Speaker 1: really good. Yeah, look, I think what you just hit 1188 01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:10,600 Speaker 1: on his key. I mean it's all about the story, right, 1189 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,720 Speaker 1: Like you have to find the stories that people care about, 1190 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 1: and then you have to have an opinion that people 1191 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,520 Speaker 1: care about. So I'll give an example, and I've known 1192 01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,960 Speaker 1: you for I don't know a long time now, and 1193 01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,680 Speaker 1: I think, honestly, you reached out to me for the 1194 01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: first time when I was writing at CBS Sports. I 1195 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,720 Speaker 1: think you'd already gone to Yahoo and you're like, hey, 1196 01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: would you want to talk to Yahoo? And this has 1197 01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,480 Speaker 1: probably been calve thirteen years ago now. In fact, I 1198 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,400 Speaker 1: remember because it was when tennis Tennessee was playing. It 1199 01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,000 Speaker 1: was when Dixie Land Delight was coming out, uh, And 1200 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:39,880 Speaker 1: I went out and talk to Yahoo. And we'll get 1201 01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,360 Speaker 1: to that in a minute, but I remember we were 1202 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:46,640 Speaker 1: talking at the Alabama Notre Dame game and Katherine Webb. 1203 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,120 Speaker 1: Alabama just blows out Notre Dame, right, and Katherine Webb 1204 01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,360 Speaker 1: goes up on the screen and immediately becomes the story 1205 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,440 Speaker 1: of the game. You know, good looking girlfriend of of 1206 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,680 Speaker 1: the quarterback who was uh, who's an aim is escaping 1207 01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:04,240 Speaker 1: me now, which is ridiculous because a J. McCarry Yes, 1208 01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,160 Speaker 1: a J. Mccarroen, yeah. And so the game ends, everybody's swarming, 1209 01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Nick Sabe and everybody's swarming. Everybody's swarming, and you rush 1210 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,880 Speaker 1: over to try to find Katherine Webb because you're like 1211 01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:18,760 Speaker 1: the thing that people are gonna want to read about 1212 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,320 Speaker 1: in the column is what it was like for Katherine 1213 01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,240 Speaker 1: Webb to become an overnight sensation, right, like some people 1214 01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:27,800 Speaker 1: would have looked down on it and said, oh, you're 1215 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,040 Speaker 1: there to cover the game. You were there to cover 1216 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,760 Speaker 1: what you thought was the biggest story. And so you 1217 01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:36,280 Speaker 1: interviewed her, right, yeah, well Musburger remember Musburger was like 1218 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:44,680 Speaker 1: kind of yes, so but you have to like I 1219 01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,200 Speaker 1: remember seeing you, like you were climbing up into the 1220 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,360 Speaker 1: stands almost to try like everybody else. But I waved 1221 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,840 Speaker 1: her down. She came down. Yeah. I waited for Karen 1222 01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,200 Speaker 1: and he went over because he's gonna go like Hucker 1223 01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah. Right, so yeah, so I was like 1224 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,000 Speaker 1: I got the interviews Captaine Webb, and it was she said, 1225 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:07,160 Speaker 1: like she she added eight Twitter followers like her phone 1226 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,880 Speaker 1: blew up, right, yeah she could like Lebron James started 1227 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:11,600 Speaker 1: following her, like I mean, it was it was a 1228 01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,840 Speaker 1: huge story. Yeah, And and she got an email every 1229 01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 1: she had, like a notification she said to work. She 1230 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,000 Speaker 1: got an email every time a Twitter follower because she 1231 01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,800 Speaker 1: had like whatever, she's not any Twitter followers were going on. So, 1232 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:29,200 Speaker 1: like you know, Jenny from so theology classes now far okay, right, Well, 1233 01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,400 Speaker 1: she's got so many emails. Her battery just died, so 1234 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,240 Speaker 1: then they're trying to get word. She didn't quite know 1235 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,080 Speaker 1: what it happened. She knew she'd been on TV, and 1236 01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:41,160 Speaker 1: I mean, look, she's like the beauty queen. She was 1237 01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:45,640 Speaker 1: not and this is not naive. Um it was funny. 1238 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:47,560 Speaker 1: It was like three weeks later she was covering the 1239 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:52,000 Speaker 1: Super Bowl for like extras. She got to the Super 1240 01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,920 Speaker 1: Bowl quick, like you heard me the interviewed just three 1241 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,520 Speaker 1: weeks ago. No one to hear you. Well, I just 1242 01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,959 Speaker 1: remember I just remember A. J. Mccarren's face when I said, 1243 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:02,560 Speaker 1: like in the locker room matters. I'm like, you know, 1244 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,440 Speaker 1: Lebron James is following your girlfriend now, and he's like, 1245 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,080 Speaker 1: he doesn't follow me, and yes, yeah, that's right, yes, 1246 01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:13,000 Speaker 1: And so I don't. So I get this tether webs nice, 1247 01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,200 Speaker 1: she's got these nice talents. So I go down. I 1248 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,240 Speaker 1: talked to mccaren. Well, unfortunately the locker rooms open. It's 1249 01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,200 Speaker 1: the only game in college football you can actually talk 1250 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,320 Speaker 1: to the players. College like college sports, tries to hide 1251 01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,880 Speaker 1: all their athletes. Terrible. These guys are great stories and 1252 01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,000 Speaker 1: there it's like good talk to the players. You know, 1253 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,480 Speaker 1: uh that these three questions in front of the it's 1254 01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,320 Speaker 1: access of college football stinks. And then she has let 1255 01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,120 Speaker 1: these kids be kids because they're great and you and 1256 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,680 Speaker 1: I are in there, but all the questions are always 1257 01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,400 Speaker 1: going to be the same at these things, like it's 1258 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:41,880 Speaker 1: just gonna be about the game, and I'm like, I 1259 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,120 Speaker 1: want to ask him about his girlfriend becoming like globally 1260 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,040 Speaker 1: like famous. He has no idea. He just won the title. 1261 01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,040 Speaker 1: And you were there and it was great because we 1262 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,120 Speaker 1: were both asking them about it, and then we could 1263 01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:55,840 Speaker 1: bounce back and forth and they couldn't break in with 1264 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,800 Speaker 1: third and four. Did you think? Yeah? You know? You 1265 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:00,800 Speaker 1: you you know. I was like, god, they do they 1266 01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,160 Speaker 1: want fifty to zero or something? The game? It is horrible, 1267 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,240 Speaker 1: but again everyone's got a job to do. But yeah, 1268 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,840 Speaker 1: we both and you you go. Lebron James following companies 1269 01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:14,720 Speaker 1: like what. He was very naive. He had no idea. 1270 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,960 Speaker 1: And I remember his other funny line, well, I think 1271 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna go. They were saying at the font with 1272 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,320 Speaker 1: Blue Hotel and Miami goes um, I'm hungry. I hope 1273 01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,680 Speaker 1: they saw food or the place is still open back 1274 01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:29,480 Speaker 1: of the Yeah, yeah they never they never closed at 1275 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,880 Speaker 1: the Fountain Blue. They haven't live nightclub is open to 1276 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,480 Speaker 1: like six am. Yeah. Uh, the South to be Don 1277 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,800 Speaker 1: worry about it. So yeah, yeah, that was a big 1278 01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,600 Speaker 1: story the interview with But that's what you learned, right. 1279 01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,800 Speaker 1: You get the trust of like screw and I'm not 1280 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: covering the game and game stinks, you go wherever the 1281 01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:49,880 Speaker 1: story is. I remember you saying something. A couple of 1282 01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,000 Speaker 1: other examples, Uh, Jay Cutler. One of the first times 1283 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,280 Speaker 1: that social media really starts to influence a game. Cutler 1284 01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,520 Speaker 1: pulls himself out of the game because of his knee 1285 01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,160 Speaker 1: injury the NFC Championship game. I think where they're playing, 1286 01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:03,720 Speaker 1: like the Packers. I can't even remember who they were 1287 01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,200 Speaker 1: playing now. Uh, And he's injured on the sideline and 1288 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,440 Speaker 1: all the NFL players start mouthing off about how he 1289 01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,400 Speaker 1: can't be that injured, and it turns into a story. 1290 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,640 Speaker 1: And remember you saying afterwards what social media did was 1291 01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,520 Speaker 1: it turns what used to be the second or third 1292 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,880 Speaker 1: day story into the first day. In other words, it 1293 01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:26,040 Speaker 1: accelerates the cycle. So you go and talk to Jay Cutler. 1294 01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,080 Speaker 1: I remember in the post game and you say, hey, 1295 01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,640 Speaker 1: did you see what guys are saying about you pulling 1296 01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:32,600 Speaker 1: yourself out of the game, And it was like Cutler 1297 01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,200 Speaker 1: had no idea because he'd been on the sideline and 1298 01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:37,640 Speaker 1: that's your story. It's not about what happened in the game. 1299 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,680 Speaker 1: It's about Cutler coming out and the way people respond 1300 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,880 Speaker 1: to it, right, And I remember that one, Like, like 1301 01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,040 Speaker 1: until social media, they'd be like, what would you have 1302 01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:48,600 Speaker 1: to rank? First of you have to be able to 1303 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,040 Speaker 1: get their numbers or have their numbers, and you have 1304 01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,320 Speaker 1: to randomly call up these athletes and be like, hey, 1305 01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,440 Speaker 1: if you have an opinion on on Jay Cutler right now? 1306 01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,200 Speaker 1: Like yes, you know some random cornerbacks for the jab 1307 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,040 Speaker 1: Jabards or something that. No. So plus, if you call 1308 01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: up and go, hey, I want to interview about what 1309 01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,200 Speaker 1: you think, they won't say anything. But they're like drinking 1310 01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,240 Speaker 1: beers on their couch and they're firing off on social media. 1311 01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,960 Speaker 1: It's public. And now we cover social media all the 1312 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,000 Speaker 1: time like it's it's this is it's a second world. 1313 01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,960 Speaker 1: Do you remember when that evolution happened from I'm in 1314 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,520 Speaker 1: the game to write about what happens in the game too, 1315 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,680 Speaker 1: I've got to already kind of take the conversation beyond 1316 01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,920 Speaker 1: where what happened in the game to the next conversation 1317 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,160 Speaker 1: that people are gonna have because everybody's watching the game, 1318 01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:36,680 Speaker 1: and with social media, everybody's talking about the game. So 1319 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 1: your column has to be something different than what you 1320 01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,600 Speaker 1: just watched, or the takeaway has to be something larger. 1321 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,840 Speaker 1: I think I've always been like, especially like a Super 1322 01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,640 Speaker 1: Bowl or any of it's always been like, well, why 1323 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:54,640 Speaker 1: am I here? Right? What access do I have? Um So, 1324 01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,880 Speaker 1: if I'm at the super Bowl, like a hundred and 1325 01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,040 Speaker 1: thirty million people watch the super Bowl and they have HDTV, 1326 01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,120 Speaker 1: They've got all the replays, I might not. Yeah, like 1327 01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm at the press box, which is great, but it's 1328 01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:10,560 Speaker 1: used to like the worst seats in the whole stadium 1329 01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:13,959 Speaker 1: you don't have, like you just don't they know better, 1330 01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:18,160 Speaker 1: and like they know their teams better, Like just so, 1331 01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:20,120 Speaker 1: what can I do? Well? I can do something behind 1332 01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,519 Speaker 1: the scenes, where was it, like this happened? Or you 1333 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:25,679 Speaker 1: may be zoom in on one play and then ask 1334 01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,200 Speaker 1: all the people what happened on the play? Or like 1335 01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,120 Speaker 1: you have to use your access. So I think I've 1336 01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:33,880 Speaker 1: always kind of had that where It's like I have 1337 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,160 Speaker 1: to give them something other than just hey, uh yoh 1338 01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,680 Speaker 1: wow man, Tom Brady is great. They want of those 1339 01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:42,160 Speaker 1: Super Bowl like you know of course they did, or 1340 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,519 Speaker 1: just just like I'm here to find a story, not 1341 01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,479 Speaker 1: just necessarily just be at the game. I think that's 1342 01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:52,760 Speaker 1: the biggest thing. Like I don't like I never really 1343 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,720 Speaker 1: care what happens in the game. Nobody ever, people don't 1344 01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,479 Speaker 1: believe that, But I don't care. I don't like something 1345 01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,680 Speaker 1: will happen. That's that's all it is. I don't care. 1346 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:06,160 Speaker 1: Winds Uh, I don't really even care if it's close 1347 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,760 Speaker 1: or not. Sometimes you do, but like, as long as 1348 01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:11,599 Speaker 1: there's something I can find on all right, be sure 1349 01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,240 Speaker 1: to catch live editions about Kicked the Coverage with Clay 1350 01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:17,559 Speaker 1: Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. 1351 01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,599 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example to you just mentioned Brady. 1352 01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:22,599 Speaker 1: I remember two of your columns that were so well 1353 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:24,320 Speaker 1: done from the Super Bowl, and we're talking to Dan 1354 01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:27,639 Speaker 1: what's so Yahoo Sports National columnists. I'm Clay Travis. You're 1355 01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,400 Speaker 1: listening to the Winds and Lost his podcast. You wrote 1356 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:34,720 Speaker 1: a column about Giselle's reaction. I think when Brady lost, right, Um, 1357 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,160 Speaker 1: and about just the humanity of that's just a guy 1358 01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,080 Speaker 1: who happens to have a girlfriend and they happened to 1359 01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:44,240 Speaker 1: be world famous, but how upset she was about just 1360 01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,080 Speaker 1: by what you could see in the tunnels underneath the stadium. 1361 01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:51,760 Speaker 1: Uh over that loss. And another one was Brady after 1362 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,080 Speaker 1: they win. I guess this is the a f C 1363 01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,200 Speaker 1: championship game. But after Brady, I think it was beats 1364 01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:59,760 Speaker 1: Patrick Mahomes, like he kind of snuck in the back 1365 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,160 Speaker 1: do word to go talk to Ma Homes after the game, 1366 01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,640 Speaker 1: to kind of walk through after that overtime game. And 1367 01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:06,360 Speaker 1: I don't think I don't, at least I don't remember 1368 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:10,200 Speaker 1: anybody else writing those. That's an example of taking advantage 1369 01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:12,679 Speaker 1: of being there, but also finding a way to find 1370 01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,200 Speaker 1: something that nobody else has, right, right, so I have 1371 01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,280 Speaker 1: the access, so use it. Right. So what happens on 1372 01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:24,320 Speaker 1: the field everybody saw, So that doesn't mean I don't 1373 01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,439 Speaker 1: sometimes write about what happened in the field, But like 1374 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,880 Speaker 1: I can't add to that conversation really that well. And 1375 01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,479 Speaker 1: I don't pretend I don't ever say I'm like an 1376 01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:39,000 Speaker 1: expert on the sports. Um like football is a very 1377 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,320 Speaker 1: complicated game, and so for me to be like, oh 1378 01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,640 Speaker 1: he overthrew that receiver. Maybe the receiver random rob. I mean, 1379 01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:49,040 Speaker 1: there's so many things happened football, particularly, but so like, yeah, 1380 01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,479 Speaker 1: I followed Tom Brady after a Super Bowl offs like 1381 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,880 Speaker 1: he was devastated, devastated, Like every one of those losses 1382 01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:57,960 Speaker 1: just guts those guys. I don't care how much money 1383 01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,400 Speaker 1: you got, beautifully, I says all that stuff like if 1384 01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,439 Speaker 1: you're a competitor, you are gutted. And he was gutted 1385 01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:06,080 Speaker 1: in that one and the Woolen balls. I was just 1386 01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,599 Speaker 1: stand there and he he said something to the security guy, 1387 01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:11,080 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, this goes in the back 1388 01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,080 Speaker 1: doors his cheeks, and I'm like, what's up at that? 1389 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,679 Speaker 1: And he comes out and I go in the locker 1390 01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:17,559 Speaker 1: room and I'm just and I asked the security guard. 1391 01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:19,240 Speaker 1: He said he wanted to know where the Holmes was. 1392 01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,840 Speaker 1: Um security guys not allowed to talk, right, So then, uh, 1393 01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:27,840 Speaker 1: I just got the security guard in trouble, um random 1394 01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:31,040 Speaker 1: random person. And but anyway, I go up to us, 1395 01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:32,639 Speaker 1: did you go talk to my homes? And what you say? 1396 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,519 Speaker 1: And he just gave me like one line where he 1397 01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:37,120 Speaker 1: was kind of surprised. I do but at least that 1398 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, he's just like, guess I wanted to, you know, 1399 01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:40,840 Speaker 1: tell him I didn't see him on the field or whatever. 1400 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, like what can you get that? And then 1401 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:45,639 Speaker 1: that was I thought it was a good column because 1402 01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:48,559 Speaker 1: it was like, you know, this young kid had played 1403 01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,280 Speaker 1: so well and it was like the old guy held 1404 01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:53,520 Speaker 1: him back. But it was like, I'm gonna go acknowledge 1405 01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:56,240 Speaker 1: that I know how much pain you're in, that you're 1406 01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,600 Speaker 1: really a hell of a player. And so yeah, like 1407 01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:00,800 Speaker 1: if you have to pay nine and you have to 1408 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,880 Speaker 1: try to use your access the best the best to 1409 01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,320 Speaker 1: possibly can. Now what part of the job too, Like 1410 01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,719 Speaker 1: that's the fun part to me, Like like finding stuff, 1411 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,680 Speaker 1: finding a story that nobody else has told. Now, we 1412 01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:14,960 Speaker 1: think one thing that you I think have been on 1413 01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:16,760 Speaker 1: the vanguard of. I mean we've talked about the fact 1414 01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,200 Speaker 1: that you're on the vanguard of building Yahoo Sports and 1415 01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:21,479 Speaker 1: and making the decision to write online and all of 1416 01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:25,560 Speaker 1: those things. But you also will allow data and analytics 1417 01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:28,320 Speaker 1: to inform you an either confirming that you're on the 1418 01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:31,280 Speaker 1: right track in terms of writing about what people care about. 1419 01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:33,880 Speaker 1: Uh and and so I'm curious on that. Let me 1420 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:35,439 Speaker 1: give it a little bit of a background for people 1421 01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:37,640 Speaker 1: out there. Story goes up on the front page of 1422 01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:40,920 Speaker 1: Yahoo Sports, it's read by millions and millions of people. 1423 01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,599 Speaker 1: Right um, you know, there's a little tab for sports 1424 01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:45,640 Speaker 1: for people who are not familiar haven't spent a lot 1425 01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:48,880 Speaker 1: of time there, and those stories they'll rotate them through 1426 01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,639 Speaker 1: based on algorithm. They're the things that they think people 1427 01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,320 Speaker 1: are going to click on the most, right. The goal 1428 01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:56,280 Speaker 1: with everything on those pages is to write things that 1429 01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:58,760 Speaker 1: are clickable. And sometimes it will be a basic news 1430 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:00,400 Speaker 1: story and I know you guys sometime times have a 1431 01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,240 Speaker 1: pee wires and stuff, but I'm always stunned by the 1432 01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,120 Speaker 1: number of writers who don't pay attention to what is 1433 01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:09,080 Speaker 1: read that they write. I've always been an analytics guy, 1434 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,040 Speaker 1: especially once I started out kicked. I'm gonna write about 1435 01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:14,760 Speaker 1: things that people care about. And sometimes I'll sit around 1436 01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:16,519 Speaker 1: and say, Okay, I could write that, but it's gonna 1437 01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:18,559 Speaker 1: be a tiny audience. And sometimes you make that decision 1438 01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,599 Speaker 1: because it's something that matters to you. But ultimately, if 1439 01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:23,960 Speaker 1: you are a sportswriter, to me, you're in the business 1440 01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,840 Speaker 1: of being read and you can use that data and 1441 01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,040 Speaker 1: that analytics to help either confirm you that people care 1442 01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:32,920 Speaker 1: about something or that they don't. And so I'm curious, 1443 01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,280 Speaker 1: when did you start paying attention to those numbers and 1444 01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,200 Speaker 1: start using them in some way to help guide you 1445 01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:42,840 Speaker 1: as to what the nation cared about? Really early, I 1446 01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,160 Speaker 1: mean because we had access to them. So I was like, 1447 01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:49,080 Speaker 1: I want to know. And my job is to bring 1448 01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:53,840 Speaker 1: people to Yahoo or keep them at Yahoo. That's my job. 1449 01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:58,400 Speaker 1: However I do that, so it's not I'm here to 1450 01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:01,479 Speaker 1: cover a game, it's not here to win an award, 1451 01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:04,519 Speaker 1: it's not here to be friends with this. My job 1452 01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,479 Speaker 1: is to find people to bring the boyagra or keep 1453 01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,920 Speaker 1: them on there. And so what are they most interested in? Now, look, 1454 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,920 Speaker 1: there is a there's a tipping point on that where 1455 01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:19,320 Speaker 1: we just become just nonsense. Right, So there you don't 1456 01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,080 Speaker 1: you have to balance that, but very quickly you probably 1457 01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:26,120 Speaker 1: doesn't need analytics. But you realize a lot more people 1458 01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:29,639 Speaker 1: are interested in Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings. Right, 1459 01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,280 Speaker 1: So it better be a hell of a story with 1460 01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:35,479 Speaker 1: the Sacramental King, dreight. Now I'm not I'm not right 1461 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:39,559 Speaker 1: now covering the NBA because soccer. But let's take women's soccer. 1462 01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna write about the Netherlands team, like they got 1463 01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,880 Speaker 1: a star player on the Netherlands. What I'm right about 1464 01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:51,559 Speaker 1: Alex Morton a be crazy? Like so you know, those 1465 01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,040 Speaker 1: are the extremes. But if you really sense it and 1466 01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:56,400 Speaker 1: you see all the different stuff, you kind of figure out, 1467 01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 1: uh some of it. So some of it is just 1468 01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:01,920 Speaker 1: like right, this are I mean, these are not in 1469 01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:05,640 Speaker 1: the general purposes, They're not not surprising, but there is 1470 01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:07,519 Speaker 1: times when people kind of seem to forget you, like, 1471 01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:11,400 Speaker 1: that's an interesting topic choice there, I'm gonna go with. 1472 01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:13,639 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with the low hanging fruit. It's hard 1473 01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:17,559 Speaker 1: to get people to read. You get harder. Has there 1474 01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,240 Speaker 1: been a time where you've talk radio stuff too? Like 1475 01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,679 Speaker 1: you want to talk about talk radio or the ESPN 1476 01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,800 Speaker 1: the Fox sports shows like US one shows like they 1477 01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:30,320 Speaker 1: don't They're trying to keep people watching and that's why 1478 01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:32,240 Speaker 1: they go the same topic over and over, and I 1479 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:36,320 Speaker 1: get why. I'm like listeners viewers get upset and like 1480 01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,920 Speaker 1: he's got always talking about Lebron James. But it's like, wow, 1481 01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:42,320 Speaker 1: not everyone watches for five hours a day, and so 1482 01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:46,280 Speaker 1: you know that's this is who they're interested in. It's 1483 01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, like your your job, 1484 01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:50,760 Speaker 1: your job. Can you say that again? Because I think 1485 01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:53,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting how many people have jobs and they don't 1486 01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:56,120 Speaker 1: ever really dissect what their job is. And it's interesting 1487 01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,320 Speaker 1: that you worked in construction where you know it's relatively easy, 1488 01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:01,400 Speaker 1: Like you have a screen job your day to your 1489 01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:03,680 Speaker 1: job today is to dig this ditch, right, like that's 1490 01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:07,960 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do. Um and yeah, and and 1491 01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,519 Speaker 1: you know like even you know you said you you 1492 01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,599 Speaker 1: trained to be a card dealer, right, Your job at 1493 01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:17,000 Speaker 1: at blackjack is to deal the cards and not screw 1494 01:16:17,160 --> 01:16:19,320 Speaker 1: up and pay out things correctly. Same thing if you're 1495 01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,840 Speaker 1: playing craps. A lot of people I feel like they 1496 01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 1: don't let anyone, don't let anybody steal the money, like 1497 01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,559 Speaker 1: they don't really know what their job is. It's amazing 1498 01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:31,880 Speaker 1: to me how many people have jobs and they have 1499 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:33,880 Speaker 1: these amorphous jobs and like what do you do? Well, 1500 01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,559 Speaker 1: I kind of do this if you can't distill your 1501 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:38,680 Speaker 1: job down and you just distilled that you said your 1502 01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:40,320 Speaker 1: job is to either get people to come to the 1503 01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:42,760 Speaker 1: site or get them to stay longer. That really, I mean, 1504 01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,759 Speaker 1: that kind of sums up the internet, right, That sums 1505 01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,160 Speaker 1: up the all media. It's all media. That's it. What 1506 01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,280 Speaker 1: what am I doing? And what is the differentiator? So 1507 01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:58,840 Speaker 1: think about like a really good broadcaster, okay and you 1508 01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:02,360 Speaker 1: go okay, So take um Bon Skull his bond Scully 1509 01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:06,000 Speaker 1: with the great who's the great Dodger guy? Then no something, 1510 01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:08,040 Speaker 1: who's the guy that's retiring? I don't know. Let's pickup 1511 01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,240 Speaker 1: Monday Night Football or something like that. John what did 1512 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:16,000 Speaker 1: John Good? So, okay, I'm gonna watch great game, right, 1513 01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,120 Speaker 1: Packers Packers and the and the Bears are playing, and 1514 01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:22,240 Speaker 1: I want to watch the game. And then well the 1515 01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:24,760 Speaker 1: game's out of hand, but mad is entertaining me, so 1516 01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,679 Speaker 1: I stick through another quarter. That's John Madden, right, who's funny. 1517 01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:32,439 Speaker 1: That guy's funny. I'm gonna keep watching um or I 1518 01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:34,920 Speaker 1: don't know who's playing, but John maddens on Right. There 1519 01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:36,800 Speaker 1: was a time when Dick five cow was really that, 1520 01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,280 Speaker 1: Like it was a big basketball game, Dick five cows 1521 01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,800 Speaker 1: yelling he's got a college I watched this. What's going on? 1522 01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,320 Speaker 1: It's got go crazy? Right, I'm gonna watch that thing. 1523 01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:47,240 Speaker 1: So like if you just think what kets you to 1524 01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,400 Speaker 1: stay one more segment and or what draws you and 1525 01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:52,559 Speaker 1: now it's harder to draw him in. But when they're there, 1526 01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:55,680 Speaker 1: how do you keep them? So whatever that is, and 1527 01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:58,400 Speaker 1: that also that can be like don't be annoying or 1528 01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,200 Speaker 1: don't make someone. There's a lot goes into that, but 1529 01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:03,519 Speaker 1: that's that's media. But yeah, I would. I would always 1530 01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:05,320 Speaker 1: say to anyone who has a job and figure out 1531 01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:07,639 Speaker 1: what your job really is and even ask your boss 1532 01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,720 Speaker 1: like why am I here? Like what? And it's at 1533 01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,080 Speaker 1: risky now because if you don't know why you're here, 1534 01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:16,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fire you. But it is. It is remarkable 1535 01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,000 Speaker 1: to me how many people have jobs and don't understand 1536 01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:21,559 Speaker 1: the basic question that you have to answer is why 1537 01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:23,840 Speaker 1: am I here? How do I make my job boss 1538 01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:25,800 Speaker 1: more money? And you know, like how do I do that? 1539 01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,760 Speaker 1: Like just basic blocking and tackling, I would say, of 1540 01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:32,800 Speaker 1: the show element of the job, then you better figure 1541 01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,920 Speaker 1: out every day did I do that? But because if 1542 01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:38,519 Speaker 1: that seats in the back of your head and so 1543 01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,639 Speaker 1: whatever your job is, it's like you know, I think 1544 01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:44,160 Speaker 1: like some of them are obvious, right, like shales. Right. 1545 01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:46,000 Speaker 1: For my job, I'm a car deal. My job is 1546 01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,280 Speaker 1: to sell a car. Okay, so did you do that today? 1547 01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,120 Speaker 1: But there's also other parts, right, So I don't know. 1548 01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:53,600 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how to sell cars. So 1549 01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:56,840 Speaker 1: try it will help you do better at your job. 1550 01:18:56,920 --> 01:19:00,400 Speaker 1: If you know why you're here, and even your boss 1551 01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,240 Speaker 1: hasn't thought about it, you'll probably do the job really well. 1552 01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:05,519 Speaker 1: And so that's that's my job. So I don't always 1553 01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:09,320 Speaker 1: sit there and go almost My job is to write 1554 01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,120 Speaker 1: do this. It's not much. This is what I'm supposed 1555 01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,080 Speaker 1: to do. I don't know how how example that works. 1556 01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:17,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, but every day I gotta try to 1557 01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:19,880 Speaker 1: do that. Now, the concept of the podcast is wins 1558 01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,120 Speaker 1: and losses. And I mentioned earlier that you reached out. 1559 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,479 Speaker 1: We met each other like eleven, twelve years ago, thirteen, 1560 01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,160 Speaker 1: whatever it was. I went out to interview at Yahoo. 1561 01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:29,360 Speaker 1: And so I'm trying to make a living as a 1562 01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:33,400 Speaker 1: writer online. I'm having some success at CBS UH, and 1563 01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:35,360 Speaker 1: you get me set up with an interview. I come 1564 01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:38,280 Speaker 1: out to Santa Monica to the Yahoo offices. I spend 1565 01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:40,720 Speaker 1: all day there. I think it goes pretty well. I'm like, 1566 01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:42,280 Speaker 1: you know what, I'd love to get this gig. I 1567 01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:44,320 Speaker 1: think it would be pretty good. They give me some freedom, 1568 01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,160 Speaker 1: I'd get a you know, salary increase, the audience would 1569 01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:50,479 Speaker 1: be outstanding, and I don't get the job offer, right, 1570 01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:52,240 Speaker 1: I go out there and then they just kind of 1571 01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:54,760 Speaker 1: leave me hanging for a couple of months, and and 1572 01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:56,959 Speaker 1: I didn't get the job offer. And so I sometimes 1573 01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:00,320 Speaker 1: wonder what would have happened with my career where it 1574 01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:03,040 Speaker 1: would have gone, because at the time I wasn't I 1575 01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:07,680 Speaker 1: don't think doing radio yet, I hadn't certainly done television. Um, 1576 01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,400 Speaker 1: what would have happened if I had taken that Yahoo job? 1577 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,160 Speaker 1: And sometimes, like you may know, the answer of why 1578 01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:14,800 Speaker 1: I didn't get the job, I haven't even asked. Its 1579 01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:18,679 Speaker 1: potentially good. I forgot you. I had forgot You've got 1580 01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,920 Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, I didn't know what to do with you. Yeah, 1581 01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:25,240 Speaker 1: I I went spent the entire spent the entire day 1582 01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:28,200 Speaker 1: talking to everybody at the Yahoo main offices in Santa Monica. 1583 01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:30,519 Speaker 1: I thought you had reached out, and you've been like, hey, 1584 01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:32,680 Speaker 1: we haven't really hired anybody who's kind of in the 1585 01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,200 Speaker 1: you know, zany irreverent. You know, at the time, I 1586 01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,519 Speaker 1: was writing hopefully humorous columns at CBS, like, I think 1587 01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:40,519 Speaker 1: we could find somebody in that. I think it makes 1588 01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:42,760 Speaker 1: sense because you you were instrumental and I don't think 1589 01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,080 Speaker 1: you've even mentioned this, but you were the first hire 1590 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,160 Speaker 1: at yeah Who. You've talked about how you laid out 1591 01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,479 Speaker 1: the different uh, the different roles, but you also were 1592 01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:54,360 Speaker 1: incredibly instrumental in bringing in those early voices at Yahoo. 1593 01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:59,679 Speaker 1: I mean in many ways you helped to build it. Yeah, yeah, definitely, 1594 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:03,200 Speaker 1: including a lot of people and and and the voice 1595 01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:05,920 Speaker 1: that exists for yeah Who Sports is in many ways, Uh, 1596 01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,599 Speaker 1: your ideas of whose good voices that could be, whether 1597 01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:11,240 Speaker 1: it's Woad, whether it's Pat forty. I mean you have 1598 01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:14,479 Speaker 1: been Pete Damil over the years, very instrumental in the 1599 01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:18,680 Speaker 1: guys who have invest want to investigations. You want to 1600 01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:22,880 Speaker 1: be unencumbered. We wanted to tell we want to right 1601 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,559 Speaker 1: right tough to tough columns like you know, we weren't 1602 01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:29,439 Speaker 1: just we'ren't afraid all the different things we've tried. We 1603 01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:31,840 Speaker 1: could tons and tons of investigations for a long time. 1604 01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:34,640 Speaker 1: We still do. Um, yeah, like we're going to cover 1605 01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,439 Speaker 1: all the uncomfortable things. Yeah, And I don't have the 1606 01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:40,840 Speaker 1: you don't have the encumbrances of their relationships at the time. 1607 01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,280 Speaker 1: And so you talked about what your job is. You 1608 01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,000 Speaker 1: also sometimes look your Yahoo Sports. You talked about the 1609 01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:49,200 Speaker 1: difficulty that you guys had sometimes getting credentialed, and a 1610 01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:51,320 Speaker 1: lot of times I think in life people focus on 1611 01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:54,840 Speaker 1: the advantages they don't have, right, They focus on the disadvantages. 1612 01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:56,439 Speaker 1: They sit around and say, well, we can't do that 1613 01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:58,640 Speaker 1: because we don't have X, Y or Z. Do you 1614 01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:01,160 Speaker 1: remember like a moment where you thought, well, hey, we 1615 01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:03,719 Speaker 1: can be the independent voice the guys who are willing 1616 01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,599 Speaker 1: to write stories that others might not, and this gives 1617 01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,519 Speaker 1: us an advantage because there's a market out here for 1618 01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,440 Speaker 1: the style of writing that we would do, for investigative 1619 01:22:13,479 --> 01:22:16,240 Speaker 1: pieces or whatnot. Did you have that as a lightbulb moment? 1620 01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:19,200 Speaker 1: Was it something gradual that happened. Were you cognizant of 1621 01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:21,360 Speaker 1: thinking about it even back in two thousand three when 1622 01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:25,120 Speaker 1: you went to Yahoo. No, we always I always knew 1623 01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:27,400 Speaker 1: that we would. I wanted to be a part of 1624 01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:30,000 Speaker 1: something like that. I didn't want to. The other thing 1625 01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:32,080 Speaker 1: is that, I mean it was good branding. If you 1626 01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,519 Speaker 1: want to get into that, I mean, can't you can't 1627 01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:38,000 Speaker 1: make investigative journalism and anything other than investigated journalism and 1628 01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:40,840 Speaker 1: just get the stories wrong. Um, like you can never 1629 01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:43,559 Speaker 1: be a crusade. It can never be like act because 1630 01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:46,639 Speaker 1: you're it'll be wrong because you'll miss, you'll be blinded, 1631 01:22:47,120 --> 01:22:49,760 Speaker 1: you'll walk into blind spot. So you can't do that. 1632 01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:52,560 Speaker 1: But you know, in a in a broader thing, like 1633 01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:57,080 Speaker 1: we have to become impossible to ignore. So you have 1634 01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:00,759 Speaker 1: these huge stories that no one else has, and particularly 1635 01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,559 Speaker 1: early on, like you know, so Nevin Shapiro or um, 1636 01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:11,600 Speaker 1: I don't know some of the other things stories, and 1637 01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:14,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna cover Aaron Hernandez and no one else is. 1638 01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:17,639 Speaker 1: We're gonna do stuff that and all the leagues. I mean, 1639 01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:19,960 Speaker 1: like the pr guy I used to get along pretty 1640 01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:21,280 Speaker 1: much at all, but at the beginning, it's like when 1641 01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:24,120 Speaker 1: they were paying a knack and like, you know, they 1642 01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:25,920 Speaker 1: joke and like, you know, like you guys are like 1643 01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,160 Speaker 1: a prince of darkness. Nobody you never call for any 1644 01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:32,320 Speaker 1: good God, that's not what we're gonna be. But you 1645 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,400 Speaker 1: they know who you are, you know, So it's just 1646 01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,040 Speaker 1: the way it is. Like I just like incredible, like 1647 01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:43,200 Speaker 1: fotball relationship with college sports, Like I love college sports, 1648 01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:45,360 Speaker 1: right and I actually love the scandals of college but 1649 01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:47,519 Speaker 1: I think the scandals of college sports are part of 1650 01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:50,640 Speaker 1: the fun of college sports. Like I do never think like, 1651 01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,320 Speaker 1: oh my god, everything's painted because it's a scandal. It's like, 1652 01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,360 Speaker 1: this is the funny part. I I used to always 1653 01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,120 Speaker 1: pay I have used an example sometimes, but when as 1654 01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:01,960 Speaker 1: a kid I watched I love the Boston Pars, love 1655 01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:04,640 Speaker 1: watching hockey, and they'd be a fight on at the 1656 01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:08,240 Speaker 1: game and and you know, to be awesome, and then 1657 01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:10,280 Speaker 1: I'd run to and then I get the next day 1658 01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:13,000 Speaker 1: like in the paper or the at the oh this 1659 01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,320 Speaker 1: game was marred by a bench clearing brown. And then 1660 01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:17,200 Speaker 1: I'd run the school and be like sixth grade and 1661 01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:19,880 Speaker 1: be like check see the parl at night right, Like, 1662 01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:25,880 Speaker 1: like dude, the Nevi and Saverio stories hysterical. The story 1663 01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:29,400 Speaker 1: was so entertaining, like it was nuts. It was completely nut, 1664 01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:32,759 Speaker 1: just like a billionaire ponte Steamer like funding the team, 1665 01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:36,559 Speaker 1: like totally crazy story, Like yeah, it stinks for Miami, 1666 01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:40,320 Speaker 1: but whatever they got back. None of these stuff ever sticks. 1667 01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,479 Speaker 1: But you know it's a bad story, like Larry Nasser, 1668 01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:45,880 Speaker 1: that's a bad story. There's nothing good at that. But 1669 01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, some of these scandal stories, they're just funny. 1670 01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:52,360 Speaker 1: And so it's like whatever. That's part of the part 1671 01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,080 Speaker 1: of the charm of the whole thing. So I'm curious 1672 01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:58,200 Speaker 1: when you have one of these big investigative pieces and 1673 01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:01,080 Speaker 1: you have worked I mean, for instance, Nevin Shapiro case, 1674 01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:03,720 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no telling how many hours, like you 1675 01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:05,879 Speaker 1: guys put in I think it's you and Charles Robinson 1676 01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:10,599 Speaker 1: back in the Charles the most of it. Ton how 1677 01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:15,000 Speaker 1: much nervousness? Yeah, okay, So how much nervousness is there 1678 01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:18,320 Speaker 1: in the minute before you click publish and you know 1679 01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:20,600 Speaker 1: it's going to go out and everybody's about to see it. 1680 01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:24,479 Speaker 1: Because let me let me yeah, let me preference that again, 1681 01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,360 Speaker 1: because you know, the era that we're in and have 1682 01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:29,840 Speaker 1: been in for a long time is a lot of 1683 01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:33,160 Speaker 1: times now people don't try and go after the whole story. 1684 01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,400 Speaker 1: They try to find one little mistake and say, well, 1685 01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:39,160 Speaker 1: if this is not accurate, then maybe that means the 1686 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,720 Speaker 1: whole thing is not accurate. Right, And it's almost impossible 1687 01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:45,559 Speaker 1: if you write five, six, seven thousand words about anything 1688 01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:48,879 Speaker 1: that every little detail is going to be ironed out perfectly, 1689 01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:51,400 Speaker 1: no matter how long you work on it. Right, So 1690 01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:55,360 Speaker 1: when I heard this cover? Yeah, when when when am 1691 01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:58,559 Speaker 1: I nervous, like for a week at least, leaping up 1692 01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:02,639 Speaker 1: to it like Samach is like terrified, have trouble sleep, 1693 01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:06,160 Speaker 1: terrified and what what are we missing? And we try 1694 01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:09,839 Speaker 1: to report backwards on the story report the other side. 1695 01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,040 Speaker 1: There's two things about what you want to do on 1696 01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,160 Speaker 1: any story. You want to be accurate and you want 1697 01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:18,360 Speaker 1: to be fair, because those are two different things. And 1698 01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:22,840 Speaker 1: you can be accurate and unfair. Um, and you can 1699 01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:25,960 Speaker 1: be I guess you can always be just inaccurate, so 1700 01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:28,880 Speaker 1: but you want to be fair awful. So it's like 1701 01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:31,240 Speaker 1: what am I missing? Like is it like you've got 1702 01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:33,880 Speaker 1: to write this story and be like you guys did 1703 01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:35,639 Speaker 1: this and then they go, yeah, we did this because 1704 01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:38,479 Speaker 1: of that, and you're like, oh, right, right, So you 1705 01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:41,479 Speaker 1: don't want to I don't know, you just you you 1706 01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:43,880 Speaker 1: just you just spend so much time on it. So 1707 01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:47,120 Speaker 1: it's a meat grinder's just a meeting people and the 1708 01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:50,640 Speaker 1: problem is you're you're right. Like I've heard a prosecutors 1709 01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:52,479 Speaker 1: say this one time and I thought it was very 1710 01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:55,800 Speaker 1: good in a trial. I was like, this case is 1711 01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:59,080 Speaker 1: like a rope if one threat of the rope phrase 1712 01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:01,720 Speaker 1: and you don't believe one threat if the rope is 1713 01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,280 Speaker 1: still strong. It is not changed. Okay, so one little 1714 01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:08,360 Speaker 1: part of the defense makes sense. Doesn't mean there are 1715 01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:10,599 Speaker 1: two dead bodies over here or something like that, right, 1716 01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:12,720 Speaker 1: So it's like and so yeah, they'll try to find 1717 01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:16,800 Speaker 1: one little thing. And then there's really in nowadays, like 1718 01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:20,080 Speaker 1: there's basically state run media. There's these organizations that just 1719 01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:22,840 Speaker 1: are like the websites are just and like there's always 1720 01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:26,519 Speaker 1: one there's always one guy who's either got a blog 1721 01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:30,599 Speaker 1: or a page or whatever. It's just like all he's 1722 01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:32,880 Speaker 1: there to do. His whole business is to defend the school. 1723 01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:36,560 Speaker 1: So like, no matter what the story is, they're just 1724 01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:39,360 Speaker 1: gonna be like it's not true, it's overblown. And where 1725 01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:42,000 Speaker 1: they're you know, defend. And then there's the attack. He 1726 01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:43,920 Speaker 1: who's kind of gotta that part you has got to 1727 01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:48,800 Speaker 1: deal with um. But like our track records phenomenal because 1728 01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:51,240 Speaker 1: we take it very, very seriously. But you have to 1729 01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,560 Speaker 1: be I've seen people do not know how to do 1730 01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:57,360 Speaker 1: investigative journalism. I've watched so many good reports blow up 1731 01:27:57,439 --> 01:28:00,600 Speaker 1: on dumb mistakes at a lot of the outlets, and 1732 01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:02,640 Speaker 1: it's really really hard to do and you have to 1733 01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:05,599 Speaker 1: be really really into it. Any good editors, you need 1734 01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:09,880 Speaker 1: cotent dedication. And half of them don't work because they 1735 01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:12,719 Speaker 1: aren't done right, even though they actually they actually are true. 1736 01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,479 Speaker 1: A lot of them are true. There's poorly done or 1737 01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:17,880 Speaker 1: they're not fair. Those are there's a lot, there's a 1738 01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:22,559 Speaker 1: lot there. So you've written a lot of stories over 1739 01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,800 Speaker 1: the years about quote unquote improper benefits or pay for 1740 01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:28,800 Speaker 1: play things like that. Do you have less of an 1741 01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:31,920 Speaker 1: appetite for writing those stories now than you might have 1742 01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:38,280 Speaker 1: a decade ago. Well, we nevern't really cared about I 1743 01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:40,160 Speaker 1: could write them. We could have done a million, like 1744 01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,720 Speaker 1: you know, point Guard somewhere gets the money. We were 1745 01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:45,920 Speaker 1: never into that. We decided at one point was the 1746 01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:49,639 Speaker 1: n p A was really pretending that there were white 1747 01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:51,720 Speaker 1: hats and black hats, and they were using it to 1748 01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:56,879 Speaker 1: justify not paying the players and amateurism and avoiding taxes 1749 01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:59,160 Speaker 1: and stuff. So in other words, that there's guys who 1750 01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:01,439 Speaker 1: cheat and there's eyes who don't cheat, and there's a 1751 01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:06,160 Speaker 1: strong difference between the two. Yeah, Park is terrible. The 1752 01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:08,240 Speaker 1: rest of the guys are good, right, And it's like, 1753 01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:10,760 Speaker 1: give me a break, right, and I covered a I mean, 1754 01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:13,280 Speaker 1: I just forget it. Like this is just ridiculous. So 1755 01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:15,519 Speaker 1: we didn't have a stretch when he said we're just 1756 01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:18,360 Speaker 1: gonna blow everybody up like we're and we're gonna go 1757 01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:21,920 Speaker 1: big schools. We're not doing small schools like we're going 1758 01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:25,599 Speaker 1: we're gonna find stuff about whatever come up. But Ohio 1759 01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:28,920 Speaker 1: State and Oregon and you know, we went after Yukon 1760 01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:32,599 Speaker 1: and whatever. We had link care. But it was done 1761 01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,599 Speaker 1: with a purpose. It wasn't done to like we really 1762 01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:37,840 Speaker 1: almost never tried to get a player in trouble. It 1763 01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:40,400 Speaker 1: was to get the coach or the system in trouble. Now, 1764 01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:46,479 Speaker 1: there was some um, obviously there's some you know, players 1765 01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:48,760 Speaker 1: would get get in trouble or something like that, but 1766 01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:51,519 Speaker 1: it was like we've shown how bad it was and 1767 01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:55,880 Speaker 1: they did get rattled. They ended up passing the stipend rule. 1768 01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,200 Speaker 1: After the whole chaos that we had enough stuff that 1769 01:29:58,240 --> 01:29:59,880 Speaker 1: they convened a big thing and they ended up that 1770 01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:03,679 Speaker 1: excite them. So all these players did, they didn't create something, 1771 01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:05,920 Speaker 1: but we don't. As we're getting criticized like, were you 1772 01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:07,880 Speaker 1: guys just trying to do the MCS work? But no, 1773 01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:11,759 Speaker 1: Anally hates us. We're blowing them apart because we're showing 1774 01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:15,040 Speaker 1: they're not doing anything, and they ended up changing and 1775 01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:17,760 Speaker 1: so there was there was like a grander motivation to 1776 01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:19,760 Speaker 1: it and just if I if we just want to 1777 01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:23,240 Speaker 1: go find out all Baskett player got something that doesn't. 1778 01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:25,920 Speaker 1: That's not that hard. You can do that, um, but 1779 01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:28,639 Speaker 1: we never wanted to be like but it's not about 1780 01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:33,960 Speaker 1: like we didn't want on Yukon basketball and like we didn't. 1781 01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:35,960 Speaker 1: It was not about like the poor kid that got 1782 01:30:36,080 --> 01:30:39,559 Speaker 1: some money, he deserves the money. It was like Jim 1783 01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:45,040 Speaker 1: Calhoun had his former manager student manager was now and 1784 01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,640 Speaker 1: he's used him to funnel the thing. Like like it 1785 01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:49,640 Speaker 1: was you know clear how they were doing it. And 1786 01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:52,439 Speaker 1: it's like this is how sophisticated the cheating in for 1787 01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:56,000 Speaker 1: like the whole college basketball scandal, which the said's bots, 1788 01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,560 Speaker 1: but it showed how sophisticated it was. It's not just 1789 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:01,840 Speaker 1: now so let's all focus on the one kid that 1790 01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:05,160 Speaker 1: got a thousand bocks. It's like you gotta do this. 1791 01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:08,920 Speaker 1: The Nike likes funneling bads of cash tow players and 1792 01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:11,080 Speaker 1: the coach is going up to do it so surely 1793 01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:13,680 Speaker 1: exposed trying to expose what the whole system really is, 1794 01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:16,760 Speaker 1: which nobody wants to do. They want to just catch 1795 01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:18,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of speeders and ignore all the other things. 1796 01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:21,880 Speaker 1: What would you change if you if they came to 1797 01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:23,800 Speaker 1: you tomorrow and they said, Dan Wetzo, you're now in 1798 01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:25,519 Speaker 1: charge of the n C double A. How would you 1799 01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:30,360 Speaker 1: change it? I just would let the players you get 1800 01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:33,479 Speaker 1: their name, image and likeness. I just I like, I'm 1801 01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:35,439 Speaker 1: a free market person. I just let the market go. 1802 01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:37,479 Speaker 1: If you can, if you can make some extra money, 1803 01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:40,000 Speaker 1: you get sponsored. People will said, I don't, it's gonna 1804 01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:42,040 Speaker 1: screw up concruding. I don't think it really will. I 1805 01:31:42,040 --> 01:31:44,599 Speaker 1: don't actually don't actually did a level of playing field. 1806 01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:49,639 Speaker 1: This is actually yeah, but right right now it's all 1807 01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:54,320 Speaker 1: about the school keeping all the booster money. But I 1808 01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:56,639 Speaker 1: don't know, it's kind of complicated. But it was actually 1809 01:31:56,680 --> 01:31:59,240 Speaker 1: not complicated. This is what they did in the Olympics. 1810 01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:03,120 Speaker 1: They just if you can, if you can get a commercial, 1811 01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:04,560 Speaker 1: or if someone wants to pay you to go to 1812 01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:08,880 Speaker 1: a school, someone wants to let me sign autographs, uh 1813 01:32:09,240 --> 01:32:11,680 Speaker 1: for thousand bucks or fox or whatever they want to do, 1814 01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:14,040 Speaker 1: go ahead and get it. Um, just get out of 1815 01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:17,080 Speaker 1: the way, let the kids make their money, and then uh, 1816 01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:22,000 Speaker 1: you know, the school isn't paying, But you're just you're 1817 01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:24,480 Speaker 1: no longer getting in the way of them. They're amateurs. 1818 01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Got to be able to make their money some other way. 1819 01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:30,400 Speaker 1: So I was I do, and I think you saw 1820 01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:34,280 Speaker 1: them with all the problems. Fox Sports Radio has the 1821 01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:37,240 Speaker 1: best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of 1822 01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:40,800 Speaker 1: our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within 1823 01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:43,320 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app search f s R to 1824 01:32:43,479 --> 01:32:48,479 Speaker 1: listen live. We're talking to Dan Whatso Yahoo Sports national columnists. 1825 01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:50,839 Speaker 1: Another thing you've done in addition to being a national columnist. 1826 01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:52,760 Speaker 1: We mentioned that you have the new books that are 1827 01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:57,320 Speaker 1: out the biographies for UH for middle school students, and 1828 01:32:57,439 --> 01:33:01,040 Speaker 1: that's called the Epic Athletes series. Al Morgan, Steph Curry, 1829 01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:04,240 Speaker 1: Tom Brady, Serena Williams U those that be the first four. 1830 01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,880 Speaker 1: But you also wrote a book called Death of the BCS. Um. 1831 01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,000 Speaker 1: What how would you compare the writing of a book 1832 01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:13,760 Speaker 1: process to the writing of a column and which do 1833 01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:20,240 Speaker 1: you prefer more? A column you get done quick? Yeah, 1834 01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:25,280 Speaker 1: a long time. Death with BCS is very reporting heavy, 1835 01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:28,880 Speaker 1: a lot of documents. Um, you know, we I think 1836 01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:32,320 Speaker 1: we just wanted to show how all of the excuses 1837 01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:36,600 Speaker 1: were such nonsense. What a what a ridiculous entity the 1838 01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:39,680 Speaker 1: Bowl system is and the fact that they allow this thing, 1839 01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:42,240 Speaker 1: like you talk about ridiculous, like the n c A, 1840 01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:47,760 Speaker 1: Like you know, if a player gets you know, five dollars, Uh, 1841 01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,360 Speaker 1: there's a threat to amateurism. But if the head of 1842 01:33:50,400 --> 01:33:54,000 Speaker 1: the Sugar Bowl makes seven grand, it's like gouts our buddy, 1843 01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:57,400 Speaker 1: It's great, right, Like it's so I mean, it's so ridiculous. 1844 01:33:58,120 --> 01:34:01,840 Speaker 1: So that was the thought that was, like you we 1845 01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, everybody wanted the BCS gone or everyone nobody 1846 01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:08,840 Speaker 1: everyone hated the BCS. And I'm Josh Peter who worked 1847 01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:11,200 Speaker 1: in USA today now and I just will talking on 1848 01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:13,560 Speaker 1: the phone. I'm like, let's find out, like why this 1849 01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:18,320 Speaker 1: thing really exists? And like you know, no, no favors, no, 1850 01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:21,400 Speaker 1: like you know, the Bull directors all hated. Everybody hated 1851 01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:24,360 Speaker 1: me while it's writing that book, I mean everybody, we're 1852 01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:29,360 Speaker 1: in everyone's toys and everything and bonuses, and like why 1853 01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:31,840 Speaker 1: does this really exist? Because nobody quite knew. There was 1854 01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:33,639 Speaker 1: no much spoken god, and we want to do all 1855 01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:35,680 Speaker 1: They wrote a bunch of stories. Anybody's turned into a 1856 01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:37,920 Speaker 1: book because it's easier to read in one spot. And 1857 01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:41,080 Speaker 1: I remember the very end of the book process. I 1858 01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:43,400 Speaker 1: flew down to Birmingham and I saw it Mike Slive 1859 01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:45,840 Speaker 1: if the SEC office is and I had all my 1860 01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:49,240 Speaker 1: information and I'm like going through this stuff like well 1861 01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:51,120 Speaker 1: why do you allow this? And why that? And He's 1862 01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:53,960 Speaker 1: sitting there going, well, what is this? What's you find 1863 01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:56,800 Speaker 1: out about this? Like like different stuff. He was a 1864 01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:58,960 Speaker 1: stunned about and I'm like, holy cow, like we really 1865 01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,560 Speaker 1: have a good book here. I remember he was. It 1866 01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:04,920 Speaker 1: was like I found some clause and like the fiestable 1867 01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:09,320 Speaker 1: contract where you're like like you had to buy certain 1868 01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:11,559 Speaker 1: rooms at a hotel, and then we found the fiesta 1869 01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:14,200 Speaker 1: bo was kicking the money back to the hotel and 1870 01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:16,680 Speaker 1: somebody had like a free wedding at a hotel that 1871 01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:19,400 Speaker 1: was in the Like there's so much graph going on 1872 01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:21,479 Speaker 1: and people just be like, I can't I didn't even 1873 01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:23,439 Speaker 1: know all this stuff, and it's like yeah, no, like 1874 01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:26,920 Speaker 1: literally nobody knows what's going on. Just it's all happening. 1875 01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:29,799 Speaker 1: So that was just a long and a long reporting 1876 01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:33,759 Speaker 1: process of a few years, and unfortunately I'm in the BCS. 1877 01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:35,920 Speaker 1: I don't think the problem is that people designed this 1878 01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:38,760 Speaker 1: playoff didn't want a playoff, so it's not really a 1879 01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:42,639 Speaker 1: very good playoff. Eventually, they'll get it right. We're talking 1880 01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:45,880 Speaker 1: to Dann what So, YEAHO sports national columnist. You. We 1881 01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:48,800 Speaker 1: were talking about different stories and the way they came about. 1882 01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:51,679 Speaker 1: You were in the room when I asked Tim Tebow 1883 01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:53,760 Speaker 1: if he was saving himself for marriage, and I think 1884 01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:59,080 Speaker 1: you turned it into a question Yahoo call him? But 1885 01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:02,599 Speaker 1: what do you remember about that? And some people listening 1886 01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:04,200 Speaker 1: to this right now, it's been a it's been a 1887 01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:06,479 Speaker 1: decade now, they may not even know that I was 1888 01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:08,120 Speaker 1: the person who asked. I mean, they kind of have 1889 01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:11,559 Speaker 1: a vague recollection of the Tim Tebow is a virgin story. 1890 01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:14,320 Speaker 1: But the reason why that became a story was because 1891 01:36:14,360 --> 01:36:16,839 Speaker 1: I asked Tim Tebow if he was saving himself for marriage, 1892 01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:19,120 Speaker 1: and it blew up into a huge story that's probably 1893 01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:21,519 Speaker 1: been what a decade ago. And you know, you'd go 1894 01:36:21,600 --> 01:36:24,360 Speaker 1: to the SEC media days and Tim Tebow was as 1895 01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:26,800 Speaker 1: close to a rock star as you could find back 1896 01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:29,200 Speaker 1: in the day. They were coming off of a national championship, 1897 01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,839 Speaker 1: he was a rising senior, and so I asked that question, 1898 01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:35,559 Speaker 1: and it's like, I mean, a neutron bomb goes off 1899 01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:37,760 Speaker 1: right now. Partly it's because it's July and there's not 1900 01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:40,040 Speaker 1: a lot of stories. And you know this, you were 1901 01:36:40,040 --> 01:36:41,679 Speaker 1: talking about how you're at the Super Bowl and there's 1902 01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:44,160 Speaker 1: nothing to write. Well, there's a thousand media members or 1903 01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:46,760 Speaker 1: whatever it is at the SEC media days and most 1904 01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,160 Speaker 1: of them are doing notes columns, you know, like, oh, 1905 01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:51,799 Speaker 1: you know Nick Saban said that he thinks his defensive 1906 01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:53,800 Speaker 1: tackle depth is gonna be better this year than it 1907 01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:56,120 Speaker 1: was last year. Are the l s U wide receiver 1908 01:36:56,240 --> 01:36:58,320 Speaker 1: is gonna be able to make play? Like really things 1909 01:36:58,360 --> 01:37:01,439 Speaker 1: that are very uh not very big stories, right, and 1910 01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:03,680 Speaker 1: then this thing goes and it goes off like a 1911 01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:05,680 Speaker 1: neutron bomb. And I remember it was right after I 1912 01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:08,720 Speaker 1: started Twitter, um, so that was one of the first 1913 01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:10,840 Speaker 1: times I saw social media really take off. So I 1914 01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:12,960 Speaker 1: think it was like, oh nine, like a decade ago. 1915 01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:17,280 Speaker 1: What do you remember about that all time great questions? 1916 01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:21,120 Speaker 1: All time whether the all time great questions? You wrote 1917 01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:25,320 Speaker 1: a column asking the questions. Apparently you said you were 1918 01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:27,920 Speaker 1: going to ask the questions. So then we were down 1919 01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:29,479 Speaker 1: there and You're like, I'm gonna ask the questions. So 1920 01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:31,840 Speaker 1: I'm about missing this right, this is gonna be great. 1921 01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:36,360 Speaker 1: So like it's a great question, it's a great question. 1922 01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:39,639 Speaker 1: And I always I'm literally on a different thing I'm 1923 01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:41,280 Speaker 1: dealing with, like right now, like I want to ask 1924 01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:45,600 Speaker 1: one question. I always I hate asking questions at press conferences. 1925 01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:46,760 Speaker 1: And that's the problem. You have to ask you that 1926 01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:50,120 Speaker 1: a press conference because it's uncomfortable for everybody. But this 1927 01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:53,040 Speaker 1: is probably trying to limit you. And there's so many 1928 01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:55,679 Speaker 1: times like I don't need an exclusive interview to sit down. 1929 01:37:56,200 --> 01:37:59,000 Speaker 1: The people who sit down for interviews, the interviews are terrible. 1930 01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:01,960 Speaker 1: They always twenty five minutes on crap. Like all I 1931 01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:04,519 Speaker 1: need is one question. I have one question, answer that 1932 01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:07,120 Speaker 1: we're done. Um. If I could do that on every 1933 01:38:07,120 --> 01:38:09,160 Speaker 1: assignment would be good. I got and I've done it 1934 01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:11,720 Speaker 1: with people. I remember doing one with Mick Saban once 1935 01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:15,120 Speaker 1: after SEC title game. I asked, um, I asked him. 1936 01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:16,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, I just always want to ask this one 1937 01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:19,000 Speaker 1: question to him. They're like, all right, go bring him over. 1938 01:38:19,720 --> 01:38:21,880 Speaker 1: It was great. Um, but on that one, I remember, 1939 01:38:21,920 --> 01:38:24,400 Speaker 1: so you're gonna do it. So it wasn't the main room, 1940 01:38:24,479 --> 01:38:26,320 Speaker 1: like I don't think they gave it a mike. It 1941 01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:28,360 Speaker 1: was like a side room and you asked. But here's 1942 01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:32,120 Speaker 1: the thing, everyone ripped you. I mean you got torched. Yes, yes, 1943 01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:36,040 Speaker 1: for like the whole week. Whole week. Yeah, still I 1944 01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:38,200 Speaker 1: still get I still get rid of like a million. 1945 01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:41,599 Speaker 1: I remember like Dennis Dodd was like, are you gonna ask? 1946 01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:44,479 Speaker 1: I don't remember. I don't remember, And later we talked 1947 01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:46,280 Speaker 1: about it, so I like Dennis, but it was like, 1948 01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:48,679 Speaker 1: are you gonna ask? You know, like it was something 1949 01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:50,559 Speaker 1: like you canna ask Les Miles if he has an 1950 01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,240 Speaker 1: STD And I remember thinking, like, the really funny thing 1951 01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:55,200 Speaker 1: and I might be it might not have been that 1952 01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:57,640 Speaker 1: exact line, but that was in his column something like that, 1953 01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:00,280 Speaker 1: and I remember thinking like, hey, I'm thinking the net today. 1954 01:39:00,280 --> 01:39:02,559 Speaker 1: It would have been amazing to stand up and be like, hey, 1955 01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:05,559 Speaker 1: Les Miles, Clay Travis, Dennis Dodd wanted me to ask 1956 01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:07,120 Speaker 1: you if you have her pies, you know, like just 1957 01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:10,439 Speaker 1: to see the room, just like erupt him, like because 1958 01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:13,479 Speaker 1: you get if you've ever been in those rooms that, yeah, 1959 01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:15,080 Speaker 1: if you've ever been in those rooms. Most of the 1960 01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:17,599 Speaker 1: questions are not very interesting and most people don't care 1961 01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:22,479 Speaker 1: about the answer the answers right, so almost immediately right 1962 01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:25,800 Speaker 1: and by the way, everybody was so upset about me 1963 01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:28,599 Speaker 1: asking the question, what did everybody write their whole next 1964 01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:30,559 Speaker 1: day call ups about it was all about whether Tim 1965 01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:35,040 Speaker 1: Deebo is a virgin or not. Right, So here's the thing. 1966 01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:37,600 Speaker 1: People will put this on the record because there's got 1967 01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:40,320 Speaker 1: to be a video. But as I recall it, Tebow 1968 01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:43,760 Speaker 1: everyone laughed and people goes, it's nothing. I get that. 1969 01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:47,040 Speaker 1: I get asked that every time I talked to kids. Yeah, 1970 01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:49,639 Speaker 1: he said something like that, like every time I speak, 1971 01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:53,280 Speaker 1: I put up and they go, do you have any questions? 1972 01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:55,840 Speaker 1: And someone goes, are you like, what's up with this? 1973 01:39:56,080 --> 01:39:58,240 Speaker 1: Like are you really a virgin or something like that, 1974 01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:03,439 Speaker 1: and he had no. He's the most unflappable, like he's 1975 01:40:03,439 --> 01:40:07,720 Speaker 1: a fantastic guy, and you know it's like he yeah, 1976 01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:09,479 Speaker 1: he had no problem with it. He was like happy 1977 01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:14,320 Speaker 1: to answer it. Oh and looks like ten years later, 1978 01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:16,400 Speaker 1: people are still like, Jim is a virgin. I'm like 1979 01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:18,760 Speaker 1: that a question was a long time ago. I don't know, 1980 01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:22,680 Speaker 1: he's still yeah. You know what was interesting too, was, um, 1981 01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:25,559 Speaker 1: I maybe felt more comfortable with the question because growing 1982 01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:29,080 Speaker 1: up in the South, if you were saving yourself for marriage, 1983 01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:31,519 Speaker 1: it was something that you would brag about, right, like 1984 01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:34,160 Speaker 1: you would wear a promise ring if you were really serious. 1985 01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:36,479 Speaker 1: Like at that point in time, it was something that 1986 01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:41,000 Speaker 1: in the evangelical faith was a very common point of discussion, 1987 01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:44,040 Speaker 1: the promise keepers, like all this different stuff surrounding it. 1988 01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:46,479 Speaker 1: So I didn't think he would be bothered by the question, 1989 01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:50,519 Speaker 1: But I also thought it helped to define who he was, Right, 1990 01:40:50,600 --> 01:40:53,080 Speaker 1: this is this guy who's on an SEC campus that 1991 01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:57,200 Speaker 1: probably gets swarmed by girls, not probably, certainly gets swarmed 1992 01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:01,080 Speaker 1: by girls everywhere he goes, and he is so religious 1993 01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:03,800 Speaker 1: that he's still, you know, abstaining from having sex, which 1994 01:41:04,160 --> 01:41:07,200 Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent of men I would imagine 1995 01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:10,479 Speaker 1: in that situation probably do not make that decision, right, 1996 01:41:10,520 --> 01:41:12,880 Speaker 1: So I thought it defined him in a really interesting way. 1997 01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:17,960 Speaker 1: But I remember that feeling of like that story blowing up, 1998 01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:19,720 Speaker 1: and look, it's happened to me a two or three 1999 01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:22,640 Speaker 1: different times since then, but that was the first. Oh 2000 01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,280 Speaker 1: my god, like, this is the number one story in 2001 01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:28,400 Speaker 1: the of the day, and it wouldn't be, uh, you know, 2002 01:41:28,439 --> 01:41:30,920 Speaker 1: it wouldn't exist without me having been involved in some way. 2003 01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:34,120 Speaker 1: And the same thing happened obviously with CNN with you know, 2004 01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:36,639 Speaker 1: First Amendment and boobs, except on an even bigger scale, 2005 01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:39,000 Speaker 1: because that wasn't just a sport that wasn't just a 2006 01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:41,800 Speaker 1: sports story, right, But you kind of get comfortable. And 2007 01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:44,559 Speaker 1: then I had the DeMarcus Cousins like He'll get arrested 2008 01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:46,560 Speaker 1: in five years tweet that was like a decade or 2009 01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:49,160 Speaker 1: or five years old or whatever. And so at some point, 2010 01:41:49,320 --> 01:41:52,120 Speaker 1: like you kind of just get used to, Yeah, when 2011 01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:54,720 Speaker 1: the social media age, like are you know you just 2012 01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:56,840 Speaker 1: kind of get used to suddenly, Like I go into 2013 01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,479 Speaker 1: Twitter and I've got, you know, a billion messages and 2014 01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:03,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, what happened? You know? Like and I remember 2015 01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:05,920 Speaker 1: having this conversation with with Cow heard about like, uh, 2016 01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:08,639 Speaker 1: you know, Debo Sweeney comes out and he's like calling 2017 01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:10,840 Speaker 1: Cow wouldn't know he didn't even know his name, Like 2018 01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:13,400 Speaker 1: I hope he learned something by the way our team performed. 2019 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:15,639 Speaker 1: And people are like, oh, Devo, you know he really 2020 01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:18,599 Speaker 1: got on cow Herd. And I'm like, in our business, 2021 01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:21,360 Speaker 1: the coach of a postgame press conference who just won 2022 01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:24,240 Speaker 1: a national championship calling you out by name is the 2023 01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:26,680 Speaker 1: greatest thing that could ever happen to your career, right, 2024 01:42:26,760 --> 01:42:28,280 Speaker 1: Like people are like, oh my god, how are you 2025 01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:30,000 Speaker 1: ever going to recover from this? I'm like, are you 2026 01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:31,800 Speaker 1: kidding me? It? Reminds me remember back in the day 2027 01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,519 Speaker 1: with Michael Moore did the Fahrenheit nine eleven and they 2028 01:42:34,600 --> 01:42:37,719 Speaker 1: like showed him on the JumboTron at at the Republican 2029 01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:40,639 Speaker 1: National Convention and like he waves everybody and he turns 2030 01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:42,120 Speaker 1: to the guy next to him and he says, I 2031 01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:44,720 Speaker 1: just made another million dollars because they're all booing him, 2032 01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:47,200 Speaker 1: and it's like the greatest advertisement he could have ever 2033 01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:50,560 Speaker 1: had for his UH, for his UH, for his documentary. 2034 01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:52,840 Speaker 1: And that's in some ways what we do. But you 2035 01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:54,720 Speaker 1: you saw it. I mean it was like, you know, 2036 01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:57,200 Speaker 1: like pure bedlam in the in the in the aftermath. 2037 01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:02,160 Speaker 1: But it's the thing you you you deal list great information, 2038 01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:04,680 Speaker 1: which is your job. Stories. It's one of the most 2039 01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:07,760 Speaker 1: famous things known about Tim Tebow, and it may be 2040 01:43:07,880 --> 01:43:10,559 Speaker 1: the most famous question ever asked at SEC media days. 2041 01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that there's a clause the fairer way, 2042 01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:17,080 Speaker 1: but you're encumbered because you're like, I want to ask 2043 01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:19,280 Speaker 1: him one question. Yeah, And this is my one of 2044 01:43:19,360 --> 01:43:22,439 Speaker 1: my problem medias. They won't let you talk to them directly, 2045 01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:25,160 Speaker 1: but then they have they do sit down for interviews 2046 01:43:25,200 --> 01:43:28,200 Speaker 1: that are almost all terrible. Like the interviews aren't any good. 2047 01:43:28,280 --> 01:43:30,439 Speaker 1: So it's like, but that's sometimes you see really good 2048 01:43:30,479 --> 01:43:33,519 Speaker 1: stuff like, um, one of my colleagues of Yahoo, Chris Haynes, 2049 01:43:33,560 --> 01:43:36,719 Speaker 1: does a podcast with NBA players, Like it's it's great. 2050 01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:39,760 Speaker 1: They really talked to him and he gets great information 2051 01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:42,960 Speaker 1: from them, um because he just he has a great 2052 01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:45,439 Speaker 1: rapport with him. It's a really good podcast. And sometimes 2053 01:43:45,479 --> 01:43:48,080 Speaker 1: you can just get like just you know, I just 2054 01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:51,080 Speaker 1: thought that was just a tremendous Uh. It was. It 2055 01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:54,040 Speaker 1: was a great question. Um, I'm trying to think of 2056 01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:55,920 Speaker 1: another one. I was just gonna say I wanted to 2057 01:43:55,960 --> 01:43:59,719 Speaker 1: ask or I asked once. Oh it was yeah, actually 2058 01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:01,400 Speaker 1: not that get a story. It was just like the 2059 01:44:01,479 --> 01:44:04,880 Speaker 1: old Michigan State bas football coach John L. Smith came 2060 01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:07,559 Speaker 1: on our radio show at Detroit. I asked him like, hey, 2061 01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:11,040 Speaker 1: this guy's got this wednsite fire John L. Smith dot 2062 01:44:11,080 --> 01:44:14,120 Speaker 1: com or something like don't like having a guy at 2063 01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:17,040 Speaker 1: a website saying like fucking He got so mad and 2064 01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:19,080 Speaker 1: everyone got mad at me for asking in the Michigan 2065 01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,080 Speaker 1: State and I'm like I was wondering, like I didn't 2066 01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:23,920 Speaker 1: say you should be fired, but like it's got to 2067 01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:26,479 Speaker 1: be kind of odd, right, But like they don't want 2068 01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:30,360 Speaker 1: real questions, and so it's just as weird. It's just weird. 2069 01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:33,519 Speaker 1: I've probably always have been weird the media. But like, 2070 01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:37,840 Speaker 1: we know lots about the athletes through filter of Instagram, 2071 01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:40,560 Speaker 1: but you can't actually ask him anything. And it's a 2072 01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:42,680 Speaker 1: tough thing. Was it's a tough question to asking a 2073 01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:45,559 Speaker 1: press office to tebow. The t Bow handled it perfectly. 2074 01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:47,840 Speaker 1: Most players would have struggled with that. T Bow is 2075 01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:50,639 Speaker 1: just amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think Tibo will eventually 2076 01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:52,879 Speaker 1: run for political office. I mean that's been my prediction. 2077 01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:55,120 Speaker 1: He'll go down to Florida and he'll get elected governor 2078 01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:57,600 Speaker 1: or senator if he decides he wants to do it, 2079 01:44:57,920 --> 01:45:00,040 Speaker 1: and it went, I mean, he'll win running away. I 2080 01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:02,280 Speaker 1: think I imagine he'll run as a Republican. I don't 2081 01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:04,400 Speaker 1: really know a lot about his politics, but I don't know. 2082 01:45:04,479 --> 01:45:06,160 Speaker 1: I think he's one of those guys that it doesn't 2083 01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:08,760 Speaker 1: really matter what party he runs for, Like he will 2084 01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:13,240 Speaker 1: have a ton of response. So one thing that you 2085 01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:15,360 Speaker 1: you have always done well and I think it gets 2086 01:45:15,439 --> 01:45:17,760 Speaker 1: underrated and I keep hit hammering on this, and I 2087 01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:20,240 Speaker 1: know you've got a couple of young daughters, but I've 2088 01:45:20,280 --> 01:45:23,120 Speaker 1: got you know, the Three Boys, and I focus a 2089 01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:27,519 Speaker 1: ton on trying to praise their effort more than their 2090 01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:30,320 Speaker 1: more than the results. And and that's sometimes for a 2091 01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:32,360 Speaker 1: lot of people out there listening. I think there's a 2092 01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:36,600 Speaker 1: big difference. Like, you can't control, uh, your talent. You 2093 01:45:36,680 --> 01:45:41,240 Speaker 1: can't control necessarily what skills you have in any particular universe. 2094 01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:44,920 Speaker 1: What you can control is your effort. And what I 2095 01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:47,920 Speaker 1: have admired about you for a long time is your 2096 01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:52,320 Speaker 1: effort is insanely high. You write more words and more 2097 01:45:52,439 --> 01:45:56,600 Speaker 1: columns than almost anybody out there. Do you attribute that 2098 01:45:56,720 --> 01:45:59,880 Speaker 1: to just a work ethic? Um? You know, I think 2099 01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:01,960 Speaker 1: there's two different kinds of people in in in in 2100 01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:05,519 Speaker 1: our industry at large, right, I think there's people who think, like, oh, 2101 01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:08,600 Speaker 1: I need a stroke of brilliance. I'll say writers. You know, 2102 01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:10,360 Speaker 1: there's the writer out there who's like, I need a 2103 01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,400 Speaker 1: stroke of brilliance. I need something to motivate me in 2104 01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:15,960 Speaker 1: order to write something. And then there's other people. And 2105 01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:18,240 Speaker 1: I would put myself in this category of what I 2106 01:46:18,360 --> 01:46:21,479 Speaker 1: do is produce words, right, That's my job. So if 2107 01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my job. 2108 01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:27,360 Speaker 1: I don't feel good about it. You could easily write 2109 01:46:27,400 --> 01:46:29,880 Speaker 1: a lot less columns than you do. What do you 2110 01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:33,240 Speaker 1: attribute your work ethic to, not the work result, but 2111 01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:36,080 Speaker 1: your work ethic to being up there and grinding as 2112 01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:41,000 Speaker 1: much as you do? UM, well, thank you. This is 2113 01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:48,880 Speaker 1: like the nicest podcast, like UM trying to get there 2114 01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:51,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't easy. Then when you get a good job, 2115 01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:53,479 Speaker 1: I don't want to give it up. I've always we're 2116 01:46:53,479 --> 01:46:56,200 Speaker 1: alwayn fighting like the yahoos, ton advantagers and things like that, 2117 01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:59,600 Speaker 1: but we didn't always, And then you're still trying to 2118 01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:02,120 Speaker 1: stay on top. People want your job. There's too much 2119 01:47:02,160 --> 01:47:04,759 Speaker 1: to lose. And I got the family and a mortgage 2120 01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:07,519 Speaker 1: and all that, all of them. But pride is basic 2121 01:47:07,640 --> 01:47:10,479 Speaker 1: pride and and uh and and liking it. It's funny 2122 01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:12,280 Speaker 1: how you said it, like I put out words like 2123 01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:16,160 Speaker 1: I said this to the journalism class recently, like you know, 2124 01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:18,760 Speaker 1: some of you guys like my favorite I like to 2125 01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:21,760 Speaker 1: write in the early evening with a you know, a 2126 01:47:21,880 --> 01:47:26,920 Speaker 1: half calf mocachina. I'm like, no, right, there's the deal. 2127 01:47:26,960 --> 01:47:30,040 Speaker 1: System is writer's block. I'm a writer. Like when I 2128 01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:34,040 Speaker 1: when I dug ditches, there's no dig ditching ditch digging. 2129 01:47:34,400 --> 01:47:37,800 Speaker 1: There's lots of mythologizing of writing. It's a job. Do it. 2130 01:47:38,840 --> 01:47:40,519 Speaker 1: It's a job. You go. If you're gonna do it 2131 01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:42,479 Speaker 1: as a job, you better do it. There's no like 2132 01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:45,000 Speaker 1: I just can't. I don't not believe me. I struggle 2133 01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:48,519 Speaker 1: at times. It's not easy. But the number I tell 2134 01:47:48,560 --> 01:47:51,240 Speaker 1: people to the number one skill in writing is concentration. 2135 01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:54,680 Speaker 1: Like I can really concentrate, and I don't know how, 2136 01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:56,200 Speaker 1: and I don't want to know how I can do it, 2137 01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:00,200 Speaker 1: but I can concentrate. And if you can concentrate, can 2138 01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:02,800 Speaker 1: write really quickly. I mean, get all this stuff out, 2139 01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:05,920 Speaker 1: because I have written stories in subway cars, on top 2140 01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:10,439 Speaker 1: of garbage cans and see on busses, point whatever. Right, 2141 01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:13,240 Speaker 1: Like you'll, I'm a journalist. You can't just be like 2142 01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:15,680 Speaker 1: I'll now retired to the coffee shop and get my 2143 01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:18,320 Speaker 1: box together. That's not the kind of journalist I am. 2144 01:48:18,439 --> 01:48:21,200 Speaker 1: Like you know, I was covering the French in the 2145 01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:23,760 Speaker 1: world cover of friends, like a hundred twelve degrees. It's 2146 01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,880 Speaker 1: like a sweating I mean, it's just miserable, like it 2147 01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:31,240 Speaker 1: doesn't matter write the story. So um, there's sort of 2148 01:48:31,320 --> 01:48:33,320 Speaker 1: this an element of that too, and I kind of agree, 2149 01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:36,120 Speaker 1: like you can't. You can't go on your radio show 2150 01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:39,680 Speaker 1: and be like you can't speak right now. I just can't. Like, no, 2151 01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:42,200 Speaker 1: this is what I do. I signed up for this job. 2152 01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:45,360 Speaker 1: You better do it. So I don't like the works, 2153 01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:47,960 Speaker 1: though I like the challenge of finding stories and writing 2154 01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:52,200 Speaker 1: stories and reporting stories, thinking stories, doing it the whole thing. 2155 01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:55,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I still really enjoy it. So Bill that 2156 01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:57,320 Speaker 1: in like, I got a great job. I'm not gonna 2157 01:48:57,400 --> 01:48:59,360 Speaker 1: let I'm not gonna give it out because I just 2158 01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:03,040 Speaker 1: like I'm easy, good God to be stupid. One thing 2159 01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:06,280 Speaker 1: nothing else I can do. One thing you've also done 2160 01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:09,040 Speaker 1: is we talked about how to know where the story is? 2161 01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:12,240 Speaker 1: What are things are people going to care about? You 2162 01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:16,200 Speaker 1: have covered more, I think than anybody else in sports trials, 2163 01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:20,080 Speaker 1: whether it's the Aaron Hernandez murder trial, whether it is 2164 01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean like you know, like it can be a 2165 01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:24,840 Speaker 1: high school you know, like a rape case. It can 2166 01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:29,080 Speaker 1: be the you know, the the Larry Nasser awfulness that happened, 2167 01:49:29,320 --> 01:49:33,719 Speaker 1: the Joe Paterno situation. What is it about those stories 2168 01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:37,479 Speaker 1: which are certainly sports related, but they're also in a 2169 01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:43,840 Speaker 1: courtroom that you think you have gravitated towards well they 2170 01:49:43,960 --> 01:49:47,320 Speaker 1: usually I mean the usually big serious subjects which i'm 2171 01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:50,800 Speaker 1: I don't like, I'm I don't. I think I said 2172 01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:52,519 Speaker 1: a few times like I don't care if I'm at 2173 01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:55,400 Speaker 1: a game, like I never sometimes I don't end up 2174 01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:58,280 Speaker 1: at a game like I've covered like every great game, 2175 01:49:58,400 --> 01:50:00,960 Speaker 1: but like I didn't. I don't think I went to 2176 01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:04,680 Speaker 1: the National Football Championship this year. Um say, I'm sure 2177 01:50:04,720 --> 01:50:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm didn't. Right. No, I don't like people you miss No, 2178 01:50:08,400 --> 01:50:10,240 Speaker 1: don't miss it at all, Like I don't like I 2179 01:50:10,280 --> 01:50:12,479 Speaker 1: don't leave it there. I'm not there, be fine if 2180 01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:16,720 Speaker 1: I'm not there. Um So, But a trial, So a 2181 01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:20,120 Speaker 1: trial is dramatic. It's a big story. Like I like 2182 01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:23,960 Speaker 1: big serious stories more than just I was at some 2183 01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:27,800 Speaker 1: game or at some stadium. Um. Sports to me is 2184 01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:30,479 Speaker 1: more about like just the backdrop of all these different 2185 01:50:30,680 --> 01:50:34,679 Speaker 1: all the different mayhem that it creates. So the trials 2186 01:50:34,680 --> 01:50:37,400 Speaker 1: are good. Covering a trial is always interesting, and they 2187 01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:41,080 Speaker 1: just you know, I mean, the stuff that gets said, 2188 01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:44,240 Speaker 1: the things that happened are usually very dramatic. Um. And 2189 01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:47,040 Speaker 1: then there's definitely an audience because there's a true crime 2190 01:50:47,200 --> 01:50:50,080 Speaker 1: element where people follow these things like I just did 2191 01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:54,360 Speaker 1: telling Winslow that they don't, but they aren't into the 2192 01:50:54,439 --> 01:50:56,720 Speaker 1: sports part. So you get a sports audience, and then 2193 01:50:56,760 --> 01:50:59,880 Speaker 1: you also get the true crime and true crime audiences 2194 01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:03,920 Speaker 1: like herding out there. Because you know, if you you 2195 01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:08,160 Speaker 1: can remember a day before Donald Trump renowned for president, 2196 01:51:08,280 --> 01:51:12,640 Speaker 1: like CNN, Fox, MS, they used to cover trials and 2197 01:51:12,720 --> 01:51:15,439 Speaker 1: I'm not just talking like Nancy Grace, like Bill O'Reilly 2198 01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:19,320 Speaker 1: and all those guys. Like it was like uh, Scott, 2199 01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:23,200 Speaker 1: Lacy Peterson and and and Jodi Arius and all these 2200 01:51:23,320 --> 01:51:26,760 Speaker 1: like random like some random person would get murdered and 2201 01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:28,680 Speaker 1: it would become a big national trial, would be on 2202 01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:32,280 Speaker 1: all the TV networks every single night. And so there 2203 01:51:32,400 --> 01:51:34,880 Speaker 1: was this huge audience for these trials. And then all 2204 01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:38,760 Speaker 1: of a sudden, all those networks and now one politics, 2205 01:51:39,439 --> 01:51:41,599 Speaker 1: they don't cover anything other than politics and the maybe 2206 01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:47,160 Speaker 1: like an occasional hurricane, so where bodies go, there's not 2207 01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:50,719 Speaker 1: People stopped being interested in murders podcast. I mean, obviously 2208 01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:53,080 Speaker 1: some people would say they're listening to, you know, the podcast, 2209 01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:56,000 Speaker 1: true true crime podcast, but yeah, you're right, it used 2210 01:51:56,040 --> 01:51:58,160 Speaker 1: to be. It used to be a obsession because you 2211 01:51:58,240 --> 01:52:00,960 Speaker 1: have the natural drama, you have the certainty, you have 2212 01:52:01,120 --> 01:52:04,679 Speaker 1: the competing stories. I mean, it is an intense level 2213 01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:09,479 Speaker 1: of dramatic conflict and not very much in the world 2214 01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:13,280 Speaker 1: of sports. Do I think they get covered? No, almost 2215 01:52:13,320 --> 01:52:17,599 Speaker 1: nobody goes. Almost nobody goes. And so yeah, I mean 2216 01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:19,599 Speaker 1: that's another one, like how can I make an impact 2217 01:52:20,439 --> 01:52:23,800 Speaker 1: at my job? Right? Like what's my value over the 2218 01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:25,640 Speaker 1: other guy? And so it's like, yeah, I'm here, and 2219 01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:29,599 Speaker 1: we get massive traffic on those trials, like huge, Um, 2220 01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:32,400 Speaker 1: it will be dramatic if they're very challenging. You're there 2221 01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:36,479 Speaker 1: like eight hours, you um complicated. So and then it 2222 01:52:36,520 --> 01:52:38,920 Speaker 1: speaks to the difficulty, like the skill of being able 2223 01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:41,680 Speaker 1: to figure out because in an eight hour trial day, 2224 01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:44,080 Speaker 1: what was the story of the day? Right? You have 2225 01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:46,559 Speaker 1: to trust your instincts in order to write the story 2226 01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:48,640 Speaker 1: that makes sense of eight hours when you have to 2227 01:52:48,680 --> 01:52:51,040 Speaker 1: distill it down to I don't know, a thousand of words, 2228 01:52:51,080 --> 01:52:55,040 Speaker 1: you might pull out four quotes, right, Yeah. And really 2229 01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:57,519 Speaker 1: being um a columnist I think is the best way 2230 01:52:57,560 --> 01:52:59,559 Speaker 1: to cover trial because a lot of the trial coverage 2231 01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:02,600 Speaker 1: is just so the defense said this, and the prosecution 2232 01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:05,440 Speaker 1: said this, and then there was the judgment on evidentiary 2233 01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:08,680 Speaker 1: ruling on this, and it's like like there was a 2234 01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:11,240 Speaker 1: day of her name, this child and he became a 2235 01:53:11,320 --> 01:53:15,760 Speaker 1: famous photo. But where his his fiance brought his daughter 2236 01:53:16,320 --> 01:53:21,599 Speaker 1: to the trial and for the last five minutes when 2237 01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:24,400 Speaker 1: they brought Aaron back in and he saw made up 2238 01:53:24,479 --> 01:53:28,560 Speaker 1: and waving at her and just really amazing scene. And 2239 01:53:28,840 --> 01:53:31,880 Speaker 1: I talked to her after, just like you know, um, 2240 01:53:31,960 --> 01:53:34,080 Speaker 1: and she granted his permission. That's you know I did. 2241 01:53:34,280 --> 01:53:35,720 Speaker 1: That's a bait. You know, you don't really know what 2242 01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:38,320 Speaker 1: then can't bring someone in the open court. We're I'm 2243 01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:40,320 Speaker 1: gonna say, like the TV wanted to show her and 2244 01:53:40,360 --> 01:53:41,880 Speaker 1: she's like, no, it's fine, and it was all this 2245 01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:44,120 Speaker 1: thing and it was just like this, it was a 2246 01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:46,360 Speaker 1: great moment. And I just wrote about that and I 2247 01:53:46,439 --> 01:53:47,880 Speaker 1: don't even know what happened because I think they might 2248 01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:49,880 Speaker 1: have been deliberating part of it or something. But it's like, 2249 01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:52,960 Speaker 1: this is the moment. And then it would be literally 2250 01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:55,280 Speaker 1: crazy because it's like five days later he killed himself 2251 01:53:55,320 --> 01:53:57,559 Speaker 1: and basically last time he saw a daughter. We didn't 2252 01:53:57,560 --> 01:54:01,040 Speaker 1: know that at the time, but um, I wonder if 2253 01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:04,479 Speaker 1: he did. And so this is sometimes like again trusting 2254 01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:06,320 Speaker 1: what the story is. It's like, Okay, this is the 2255 01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:10,360 Speaker 1: biggest thing. Like again, if you about walking home and 2256 01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:12,400 Speaker 1: my wife called me and she goes, what happened today? 2257 01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:14,519 Speaker 1: I like, oh my god, they brought the daby that 2258 01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:17,000 Speaker 1: the little girl so keyte they brought of the trial 2259 01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:19,679 Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, should she up or whatever? 2260 01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:22,759 Speaker 1: And they don't. And your columns about Snefidencia are ruling 2261 01:54:23,280 --> 01:54:25,840 Speaker 1: like you missed the story. Be sure to catch live 2262 01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:28,880 Speaker 1: editions about Kicked the coverage with Clay Travis week days 2263 01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:33,120 Speaker 1: at six am Eastern three am Pacific. There's lots of 2264 01:54:33,160 --> 01:54:35,200 Speaker 1: people out there listening right now and again the podcast 2265 01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:37,600 Speaker 1: called Wins and Losses. I'm Clay Travis, Dan what's so 2266 01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:41,800 Speaker 1: Yahoo Sports National columnists? So this you bring up the 2267 01:54:41,880 --> 01:54:44,680 Speaker 1: daughter there and you've got two daughters. I've got three sons. 2268 01:54:44,760 --> 01:54:47,640 Speaker 1: This is something we've talked about. How do you balance 2269 01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:49,640 Speaker 1: when you work as much as you do? How do 2270 01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:53,800 Speaker 1: you balance out family life with your work life? Um, 2271 01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:56,760 Speaker 1: and especially when you have a job where you might 2272 01:54:56,800 --> 01:54:58,840 Speaker 1: be on the road for a week covering a trial, 2273 01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:01,839 Speaker 1: or you might be for like you are in France 2274 01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:04,320 Speaker 1: right now covering into World Club, Like how do you 2275 01:55:04,560 --> 01:55:06,720 Speaker 1: multiple weeks maybe a month? I remember you were over 2276 01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:10,560 Speaker 1: in wherever it was, I think Korea, South Korea covering 2277 01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:14,160 Speaker 1: the Olympics over there. How do you balance out work 2278 01:55:14,400 --> 01:55:18,520 Speaker 1: and family life? I mean to me, that's the number 2279 01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:23,680 Speaker 1: one challenge for literally every parent who's every working there. Yeah, 2280 01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:28,200 Speaker 1: everybody struggles with it. Um, everybody wants more family time 2281 01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:31,440 Speaker 1: and but you also have to you know, one of 2282 01:55:31,480 --> 01:55:33,280 Speaker 1: the things you have to do is provide for your family. 2283 01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:36,600 Speaker 1: So that is a challenge. I just think everybody grappled with. 2284 01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:40,120 Speaker 1: You know, the benefit this is, at least how I 2285 01:55:40,280 --> 01:55:44,360 Speaker 1: just fi it is. You know, when I'm home, I'm home. 2286 01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:48,280 Speaker 1: I got I'm not commuting to an office. Um, you 2287 01:55:48,360 --> 01:55:50,360 Speaker 1: know there's a lot of time when I can when 2288 01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm home and I'm trying to really be this is 2289 01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:55,920 Speaker 1: the date, the minute by minute challenge. But being engaged 2290 01:55:56,000 --> 01:55:58,800 Speaker 1: with your kids when you're there, Yeah, you would be 2291 01:55:58,920 --> 01:56:01,600 Speaker 1: there and it's not paying attention to you them. Um. 2292 01:56:02,000 --> 01:56:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm a very early on pushing one of my kids on, 2293 01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,240 Speaker 1: my older daughter on a swing and while I'm looking 2294 01:56:07,280 --> 01:56:10,120 Speaker 1: at the telephone and I'm like, what am I doing? 2295 01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:14,560 Speaker 1: Like like whatever that hell, I can still remember the swing, 2296 01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:17,640 Speaker 1: you know, Like what are you doing? Put the phone down, 2297 01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:20,440 Speaker 1: like it's not bad. Whatever is on whatever, text messages 2298 01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:22,880 Speaker 1: or whatever, I get it your way. Like I'm literally 2299 01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:24,960 Speaker 1: at the park with with like two year old, Like 2300 01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:27,560 Speaker 1: this is way more important. But I think that's just 2301 01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:31,160 Speaker 1: a struggle everybody has, whether you travel for work or 2302 01:56:31,320 --> 01:56:33,600 Speaker 1: you have long community, you can't be home for this 2303 01:56:34,400 --> 01:56:38,920 Speaker 1: or that. Um and then how do you end work 2304 01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:44,080 Speaker 1: and start family time as fast as possible? Because I've 2305 01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:46,520 Speaker 1: heard like Mark Cuban's is like times the most precious 2306 01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:48,600 Speaker 1: thing you have, Like it's the one thing you can't buy. 2307 01:56:48,680 --> 01:56:51,200 Speaker 1: It's the one thing you can't buy. He's like, um 2308 01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:54,360 Speaker 1: and and you know, being a parent, man, it's slow 2309 01:56:54,480 --> 01:56:59,000 Speaker 1: and fast exact same time. Um. So, I don't know. 2310 01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:00,760 Speaker 1: I wish I had the I said that one, but 2311 01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:06,240 Speaker 1: it's well in particular, I think you're you're mentioning like 2312 01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:08,840 Speaker 1: you right from home. I do much of my work. 2313 01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:11,040 Speaker 1: I got a home radio, home television, you know, I 2314 01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:14,240 Speaker 1: I write and in my office. Like the flip switch 2315 01:57:14,360 --> 01:57:17,600 Speaker 1: between I'm you know, Dad at work versus I'm Dad 2316 01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:21,200 Speaker 1: at home is I think particularly challenging for people. I 2317 01:57:21,240 --> 01:57:23,160 Speaker 1: don't think it's just us, but I think if you 2318 01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:25,800 Speaker 1: have a job where it's it's it's hard to escape 2319 01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,520 Speaker 1: from it's hard to have those delionated hours. Like I 2320 01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:31,960 Speaker 1: remember talking to my dad recently, and when we would 2321 01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:35,320 Speaker 1: go on family vacation, he would take two weeks and 2322 01:57:35,720 --> 01:57:38,240 Speaker 1: he wouldn't talk to anybody at his office, right, like 2323 01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:41,200 Speaker 1: he would be unreachable, and like we were just as 2324 01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:44,560 Speaker 1: a family out on our own. And on some level, 2325 01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:47,800 Speaker 1: I envy that so much, like that ability to just 2326 01:57:48,120 --> 01:57:51,040 Speaker 1: escape from all contact for a couple of weeks. And 2327 01:57:51,160 --> 01:57:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't know that as a society we're ever going 2328 01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:57,640 Speaker 1: to have that. Oh, there's no way we'll ever have that. 2329 01:57:58,160 --> 01:58:02,480 Speaker 1: They just don't. I mean two weeks and be I 2330 01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:05,080 Speaker 1: mean times of a job, I guess you have. But um, 2331 01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:08,480 Speaker 1: you're always you were always too connected now with everything. 2332 01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:10,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, that would have been that would be great. 2333 01:58:11,040 --> 01:58:13,760 Speaker 1: But you know, I look at that and go he 2334 01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:18,640 Speaker 1: offer like working at home or working around like I am. 2335 01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:21,600 Speaker 1: You know, I can get the kids off to school 2336 01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:25,920 Speaker 1: and then start work or like you know, see there's 2337 01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:28,080 Speaker 1: no commute, man, It's not a lot of people commute. 2338 01:58:28,760 --> 01:58:30,880 Speaker 1: Um when they got to work two jobs, I worked 2339 01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:35,480 Speaker 1: two jobs. But it's a little more flexible, So I 2340 01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:37,720 Speaker 1: don't know, man, I mean it's just I just think 2341 01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:40,040 Speaker 1: it's something everybody fights every day because you want to 2342 01:58:40,080 --> 01:58:44,600 Speaker 1: do I've had things like, you know, I've had opportunities 2343 01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:48,080 Speaker 1: like well, come come here for a week, be on 2344 01:58:48,160 --> 01:58:50,760 Speaker 1: the TV show, or go go do this, and I 2345 01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:52,760 Speaker 1: just do like or you know you gonna if you 2346 01:58:52,800 --> 01:58:54,480 Speaker 1: do this, you gotta be on the road like the 2347 01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:56,600 Speaker 1: next six Saturday nights. And looks like if it's not 2348 01:58:57,840 --> 01:59:00,320 Speaker 1: for y'all, or I mean, I write books, try to 2349 01:59:00,360 --> 01:59:02,240 Speaker 1: do my second jobs with like books, some things that 2350 01:59:02,440 --> 01:59:04,960 Speaker 1: like sit into that I'm just like, I'm not giving 2351 01:59:05,040 --> 01:59:08,160 Speaker 1: up all those weekends. Like and I know it's just 2352 01:59:08,280 --> 01:59:12,200 Speaker 1: maybe not the smartest career thing, but I really want 2353 01:59:12,240 --> 01:59:15,720 Speaker 1: to be a parent. And so like sometimes you just say, now, 2354 01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:18,920 Speaker 1: you know, I think I was a lot of the 2355 01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:21,280 Speaker 1: guys that do really well on TV they don't have 2356 01:59:21,440 --> 01:59:24,360 Speaker 1: that they aren't married. Yeah, it is true that there 2357 01:59:24,360 --> 01:59:27,200 Speaker 1: it seems like there's a lot of people who don't 2358 01:59:27,240 --> 01:59:30,440 Speaker 1: have families or they aren't married. And you know, basically 2359 01:59:30,520 --> 01:59:32,440 Speaker 1: you can just have your career and when you're young, 2360 01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:34,360 Speaker 1: you can do that. And you were talking earlier about 2361 01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, you can make five working for the basketball 2362 01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:40,000 Speaker 1: times or whatever it is, because you don't have those obligations. 2363 01:59:40,040 --> 01:59:41,680 Speaker 1: And I do think for to the extent people are 2364 01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:44,880 Speaker 1: listening out there, when you're young and you're not married, 2365 01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:46,880 Speaker 1: or even if you're married and you don't have kids 2366 01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:48,960 Speaker 1: and your wife's working or your husband's working, you have 2367 01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:52,000 Speaker 1: a lot more flexibility. Take advantage of it. Um. And 2368 01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:53,760 Speaker 1: that's the last question I want to ask you. And 2369 01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:55,680 Speaker 1: then I'm Clay Travis. We've been talking with Dan Wetts, 2370 01:59:55,680 --> 01:59:58,200 Speaker 1: so we do a weekly podcast here called Wins and Losses. 2371 01:59:59,000 --> 02:00:02,040 Speaker 1: What advice would you give someone out there right now 2372 02:00:02,120 --> 02:00:04,920 Speaker 1: who is listening and they're thinking, I want to one 2373 02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:08,280 Speaker 1: day make a living writing in the world of sports. 2374 02:00:08,440 --> 02:00:14,760 Speaker 1: What would you tell them to do right now? Uh? 2375 02:00:18,520 --> 02:00:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I just I don't know. I learn how 2376 02:00:22,440 --> 02:00:25,080 Speaker 1: to report and learn how to concentrate. I guess those 2377 02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:27,600 Speaker 1: are the two days. Don't don't worry about what you're covering, 2378 02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:32,840 Speaker 1: um early on. I mean, it's you know, like I 2379 02:00:32,960 --> 02:00:36,480 Speaker 1: just it's just not that important. Everybody wants to cover 2380 02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:39,400 Speaker 1: the super Bowl and the super Bowl, and there's a 2381 02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:41,320 Speaker 1: ton of people at the super Bowl don't know how 2382 02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:45,960 Speaker 1: to cover it. So it's like they're like there's lots 2383 02:00:45,960 --> 02:00:47,760 Speaker 1: of people. They're just sort of kind of in the media, 2384 02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:50,720 Speaker 1: but they don't they don't really ever preach anything substance. 2385 02:00:50,840 --> 02:00:53,160 Speaker 1: And so it's like you just really have to learn 2386 02:00:53,200 --> 02:00:56,920 Speaker 1: how to do the job. Uh. I think there's too much. 2387 02:00:57,240 --> 02:00:59,320 Speaker 1: There's just too many. You're not you're not gonna laugh 2388 02:01:00,080 --> 02:01:02,160 Speaker 1: unless you know how to. I say that, and I 2389 02:01:02,200 --> 02:01:05,560 Speaker 1: hope I keep lasted. But um, you just you have 2390 02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:08,400 Speaker 1: to learn how to give the job. It's it's it's 2391 02:01:08,440 --> 02:01:12,120 Speaker 1: a job. It's not where am I at? Um? And 2392 02:01:12,240 --> 02:01:14,560 Speaker 1: if you can figure out how to think on your 2393 02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:16,200 Speaker 1: feet and they give you all sorts of different people 2394 02:01:16,240 --> 02:01:18,440 Speaker 1: and do all these different things and right really quickly 2395 02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:22,040 Speaker 1: and write a lot and get it right all the 2396 02:01:22,080 --> 02:01:25,120 Speaker 1: different things you have to do. Um, then you have 2397 02:01:25,240 --> 02:01:27,360 Speaker 1: the skills and then you'll get to go to wherever 2398 02:01:27,480 --> 02:01:29,520 Speaker 1: you want to go. But just because it's like a 2399 02:01:29,640 --> 02:01:32,880 Speaker 1: big event, that's not the best stuff you do. I 2400 02:01:32,920 --> 02:01:35,040 Speaker 1: guess that's probably the biggest thing. Everyone was like, all 2401 02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:37,600 Speaker 1: you got to go to that. I'm like, you know, 2402 02:01:38,040 --> 02:01:41,520 Speaker 1: like that's yes and no, like you always get to remember, 2403 02:01:41,680 --> 02:01:44,840 Speaker 1: like how fortunately are being it? It was it was 2404 02:01:44,880 --> 02:01:47,200 Speaker 1: a covered daytona five hunter all time and the Masters 2405 02:01:47,280 --> 02:01:50,240 Speaker 1: and Jay Bugsby and Jay Hartsdag to work with and 2406 02:01:50,240 --> 02:01:52,440 Speaker 1: we always would take time to get the day five 2407 02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:55,120 Speaker 1: d on like the Thursday night they do like a 2408 02:01:55,280 --> 02:01:57,800 Speaker 1: shootout that they at race and we always still out 2409 02:01:57,840 --> 02:02:00,480 Speaker 1: in this grandstands and have a beer and just like 2410 02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:03,200 Speaker 1: remind us of like how often this is, Like yours 2411 02:02:03,200 --> 02:02:05,720 Speaker 1: a third number likes how great it is to be 2412 02:02:05,840 --> 02:02:08,640 Speaker 1: at some place and bring passion to a game, But 2413 02:02:10,360 --> 02:02:13,560 Speaker 1: like just being at the game is not. My job 2414 02:02:13,680 --> 02:02:16,440 Speaker 1: is not to go to the game. So it's like 2415 02:02:16,600 --> 02:02:18,320 Speaker 1: just because the game is going on and it's a 2416 02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:21,200 Speaker 1: cool game, that's and I just think there's so much 2417 02:02:21,240 --> 02:02:23,080 Speaker 1: sports media. It's just like I get to go to 2418 02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:26,400 Speaker 1: the game. Like, you're probably not going to produce something 2419 02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:28,400 Speaker 1: that's going to keep getting you to go back to 2420 02:02:28,480 --> 02:02:30,840 Speaker 1: the game. So learn how to do that and you 2421 02:02:30,920 --> 02:02:32,360 Speaker 1: probably will be able to do this job for a 2422 02:02:32,400 --> 02:02:36,680 Speaker 1: long time in whatever shape formed this job is. I 2423 02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:38,160 Speaker 1: know I said last question, but I want to go 2424 02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:40,400 Speaker 1: back to the very beginning. Now, you said when you 2425 02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:44,200 Speaker 1: first started covering U Mass in college that John Calipari 2426 02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:46,880 Speaker 1: years that you'd be like, oh, this is a really 2427 02:02:46,960 --> 02:02:50,000 Speaker 1: big game. If Bob Bryan's there. Um, have you had 2428 02:02:50,040 --> 02:02:53,640 Speaker 1: the experience yet, and I'm sure you have of people 2429 02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:56,520 Speaker 1: coming up to you and they're like, oh Wow, Dan Wetzel, 2430 02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:58,800 Speaker 1: I can't believe you're here. You know, the young guy 2431 02:02:59,080 --> 02:03:02,520 Speaker 1: version of you, who a college level kid now who 2432 02:03:02,800 --> 02:03:05,200 Speaker 1: is like kind of oh my god, it's a it's 2433 02:03:05,240 --> 02:03:07,320 Speaker 1: a really big event because Dan wessels here. And what 2434 02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:10,360 Speaker 1: does that path feel like to have gone from being 2435 02:03:10,440 --> 02:03:12,560 Speaker 1: the kid who's at the event thinking, oh my god, 2436 02:03:12,560 --> 02:03:15,800 Speaker 1: I can't believe Bob Ryan's here too. Now maybe occasionally 2437 02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:20,720 Speaker 1: hearing from people I can't believe Dan Wessel's here. Yeah, 2438 02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:25,400 Speaker 1: it's it's definitely weird. Um, I I'm not on TV 2439 02:03:25,520 --> 02:03:31,560 Speaker 1: a ton um, so like I don't get that, like 2440 02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:35,400 Speaker 1: just random fan. They don't easily. I don't know me. 2441 02:03:35,520 --> 02:03:38,400 Speaker 1: My wife always jokes like your groupies are all like everybody, 2442 02:03:38,920 --> 02:03:42,360 Speaker 1: Like everybody I know who's like a thirty to forty 2443 02:03:42,440 --> 02:03:46,200 Speaker 1: nine year old man knows exactly who you are. Like No, 2444 02:03:47,680 --> 02:03:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that's your wheel. Oh the guys, that's 2445 02:03:52,200 --> 02:03:53,840 Speaker 1: my real house, right, is right? I'm like, yeah, I 2446 02:03:53,960 --> 02:03:55,960 Speaker 1: got the worst groupies, like I have know, like hot 2447 02:03:56,040 --> 02:03:57,880 Speaker 1: twenty year old girup. Now they don't know who I am, 2448 02:03:58,440 --> 02:04:01,320 Speaker 1: but they're like two year old guy mowing his lawn, 2449 02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:05,280 Speaker 1: chatting mew to Tennessee listening to the podcast it was 2450 02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:09,280 Speaker 1: in my people. Um, yeah, the young writers. Yeah, it's 2451 02:04:09,440 --> 02:04:12,960 Speaker 1: I don't even it's really unnerving. I don't it's not unnerving. 2452 02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:14,920 Speaker 1: I just don't even know what to say because I'm 2453 02:04:15,080 --> 02:04:17,680 Speaker 1: really annoy I have a very interesting job, but I 2454 02:04:17,760 --> 02:04:20,800 Speaker 1: have a really normal person. I mowed my lawn, I 2455 02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:24,800 Speaker 1: drink bush light, I have a bad golfer. Like there's 2456 02:04:24,920 --> 02:04:28,600 Speaker 1: nothing vaccinating about my life other than the job. That's it, 2457 02:04:29,120 --> 02:04:31,000 Speaker 1: Like you know, and so I always just kind of 2458 02:04:31,040 --> 02:04:33,080 Speaker 1: people a little pop off. So I don't know, like 2459 02:04:33,160 --> 02:04:35,120 Speaker 1: I get it. So I'm sure you get the same thing. 2460 02:04:35,200 --> 02:04:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean, just sort of like I'm not famous, right 2461 02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:42,320 Speaker 1: so and I don't try to be famous, so it's 2462 02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:43,640 Speaker 1: a sort of a little odd I don't know. I 2463 02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:45,640 Speaker 1: guess I never I don't really know what to say, 2464 02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:49,880 Speaker 1: except you know, I'm encouraging and flattering, I guess, but like, okay, 2465 02:04:50,040 --> 02:04:51,760 Speaker 1: but I'm here to work and you're here to work 2466 02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:56,360 Speaker 1: or um. I've done Ohio University this year and with 2467 02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:58,360 Speaker 1: lunch with a couple of kids, like listen, I mis 2468 02:04:58,440 --> 02:05:02,320 Speaker 1: knew everything about all journalism is kind of funny, and 2469 02:05:02,960 --> 02:05:07,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, it is interesting you mentioned that. But 2470 02:05:08,680 --> 02:05:11,880 Speaker 1: what I always try to think is you you talked 2471 02:05:11,880 --> 02:05:14,800 Speaker 1: about your your upbringing. I think the advantage that you 2472 02:05:14,960 --> 02:05:16,680 Speaker 1: have and that I have in some sense, and that 2473 02:05:16,760 --> 02:05:19,360 Speaker 1: I worry about, honestly my kids having, whether they're gonna 2474 02:05:19,360 --> 02:05:22,760 Speaker 1: be is I was raised so middle class and so 2475 02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:26,120 Speaker 1: middle of the road, so middle ordinary that I feel 2476 02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:29,600 Speaker 1: like I understand who the audience is for sports, right. 2477 02:05:29,960 --> 02:05:31,680 Speaker 1: I remember hearing and this is the quote that I 2478 02:05:31,800 --> 02:05:34,120 Speaker 1: that I've always loved, Like, um, there's lots of people 2479 02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:36,920 Speaker 1: who worry about writing for quote unquote the elites, right, 2480 02:05:36,960 --> 02:05:38,840 Speaker 1: Like I'm trying to write for the people who live 2481 02:05:38,880 --> 02:05:40,680 Speaker 1: in New York City and live on the Upper East Side. 2482 02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:44,680 Speaker 1: Or I'm trying to write for the people who yeah right, 2483 02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:47,960 Speaker 1: in the same same thing, like yeah right, like and 2484 02:05:48,120 --> 02:05:50,400 Speaker 1: so and and I think you know from where I 2485 02:05:50,520 --> 02:05:54,440 Speaker 1: came from. I'm writing about SEC football. Initially, my audience 2486 02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:57,920 Speaker 1: is like literally the the middle part of America, right, 2487 02:05:57,960 --> 02:05:59,960 Speaker 1: those are the people who love college football, the people 2488 02:06:00,040 --> 02:06:02,320 Speaker 1: who are opening up a beer and kicking back on 2489 02:06:02,400 --> 02:06:06,320 Speaker 1: their couch to to watch a game. And I think 2490 02:06:06,440 --> 02:06:08,800 Speaker 1: that there is and and I'm not saying that being 2491 02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:11,080 Speaker 1: elite is in any way a bad thing, but I 2492 02:06:11,160 --> 02:06:13,360 Speaker 1: think that speaks to you saying, like I know what 2493 02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:16,520 Speaker 1: people are going to care about. I remember a great 2494 02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:20,560 Speaker 1: quote about Jerry Bruckheimer, right, Like Jerry Bruckheimer makes movies 2495 02:06:20,880 --> 02:06:23,720 Speaker 1: that everybody is gonna want to watch, right, like his Goal, 2496 02:06:24,080 --> 02:06:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, Transformers, Pirates of the Caribbean. Like he's making 2497 02:06:27,360 --> 02:06:32,800 Speaker 1: movies that are gonna appeal yeah, right, and so yeah, 2498 02:06:32,880 --> 02:06:35,000 Speaker 1: well you may Gloria. Right, So that's a great example. Yeah, 2499 02:06:35,080 --> 02:06:37,800 Speaker 1: Like he's trying to speak to the masses. And he said, like, 2500 02:06:37,880 --> 02:06:41,200 Speaker 1: so you gotta ask a question. Once he said, somebody said, um, 2501 02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:44,320 Speaker 1: how do you know what moves the needle? Right, It's 2502 02:06:44,320 --> 02:06:46,160 Speaker 1: one of the best all time quotes I've ever heard. 2503 02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:49,840 Speaker 1: And he said, I am the needle. And I love 2504 02:06:49,960 --> 02:06:52,840 Speaker 1: that responsive, really cocky answer, right, But it speaks to 2505 02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:56,040 Speaker 1: it on two different levels. One like, I know what 2506 02:06:56,280 --> 02:06:59,000 Speaker 1: people are going to respond to, so I can move 2507 02:06:59,080 --> 02:07:01,200 Speaker 1: the needle as I need two. Right. That's one way 2508 02:07:01,240 --> 02:07:03,200 Speaker 1: to take that answer. The other way to take it 2509 02:07:03,360 --> 02:07:06,520 Speaker 1: is I am Middle America. I know what people are 2510 02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:09,320 Speaker 1: going to respond to because I am my audience and 2511 02:07:09,400 --> 02:07:11,440 Speaker 1: I always like to focus on it more on the 2512 02:07:11,520 --> 02:07:14,240 Speaker 1: second part, knowing your audience. And when you just said, 2513 02:07:14,280 --> 02:07:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, I drink push light, I mowed my own 2514 02:07:16,640 --> 02:07:18,480 Speaker 1: law and you know I go to my I go 2515 02:07:18,560 --> 02:07:21,120 Speaker 1: to my daughter soccer games. Like that is the Yahoo 2516 02:07:21,120 --> 02:07:26,720 Speaker 1: audience right that my weekend. Yeah, and we were doing 2517 02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:29,840 Speaker 1: our college we're doing our college football podcast top forty 2518 02:07:29,920 --> 02:07:32,760 Speaker 1: and damn when I do it. Um, now, when you 2519 02:07:32,880 --> 02:07:34,920 Speaker 1: listen to two hours of this podcast, you should listen 2520 02:07:34,960 --> 02:07:38,120 Speaker 1: to that one started again. But there was a night 2521 02:07:38,240 --> 02:07:43,040 Speaker 1: when I think it was like, um, Tom Herman and 2522 02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:45,360 Speaker 1: Mike Van Gandi almost got in a fight, like during 2523 02:07:45,400 --> 02:07:48,800 Speaker 1: the game was last year. It's like some moment they 2524 02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:51,280 Speaker 1: were yelling at each other like it was gonna be 2525 02:07:51,320 --> 02:07:53,600 Speaker 1: a fight. And I remember there was some notes came 2526 02:07:53,640 --> 02:07:55,600 Speaker 1: out from one of our like a producer like this 2527 02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:56,920 Speaker 1: is what we need to talk I'm like, no, we're 2528 02:07:56,920 --> 02:07:59,240 Speaker 1: talking about who win the fight? Yeah, like you know, 2529 02:07:59,480 --> 02:08:01,680 Speaker 1: like you know, do you get an advantage because you 2530 02:08:01,760 --> 02:08:04,200 Speaker 1: got got the mullet? You know, Like this is what 2531 02:08:04,280 --> 02:08:06,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about our podcast. Like I'm great on 2532 02:08:06,280 --> 02:08:08,280 Speaker 1: the podcast, They're like, now we're doing this, this this 2533 02:08:08,400 --> 02:08:10,600 Speaker 1: because I'm like, you're sitting at home and I wonder 2534 02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:13,040 Speaker 1: who would win that fight. You know what, here, that's 2535 02:08:13,080 --> 02:08:15,800 Speaker 1: a shame. This is sort of shame many to find 2536 02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:18,360 Speaker 1: these coaches for acting up who kids homes? Fine, Um, 2537 02:08:18,400 --> 02:08:20,600 Speaker 1: it was funny, like I think Tom Herman would win, 2538 02:08:20,720 --> 02:08:23,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think Gundy. Gundy's got a bobby knife 2539 02:08:23,480 --> 02:08:29,800 Speaker 1: on him all that. You know. Like, I just atomic 2540 02:08:30,160 --> 02:08:33,000 Speaker 1: completely different than what they want, whatever pretty Ture would 2541 02:08:33,000 --> 02:08:34,680 Speaker 1: want us to do. And I feel like, yeah, that's right, 2542 02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:37,440 Speaker 1: we're doing this. Don't worry. This is what they're talking about. 2543 02:08:38,520 --> 02:08:41,160 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to hear about this. I'm not gonna faint 2544 02:08:41,200 --> 02:08:44,160 Speaker 1: outrage at two millionaires almost fight. Let him fight, That's 2545 02:08:44,160 --> 02:08:46,000 Speaker 1: be great. And then it became actually a big thing. 2546 02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:48,600 Speaker 1: I remember they would have Leech Leech talking about who 2547 02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:51,040 Speaker 1: would win the fight in the fact twelves and kind 2548 02:08:51,040 --> 02:08:54,080 Speaker 1: of started to become a thing. So yeah, I feel 2549 02:08:54,200 --> 02:08:57,720 Speaker 1: very confident in knowing what I grew up in these coasts, 2550 02:08:58,120 --> 02:09:00,560 Speaker 1: so I don't feel foreign to these coasts. It's not 2551 02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:02,360 Speaker 1: in California, but I mean I live in the middle 2552 02:09:02,360 --> 02:09:05,720 Speaker 1: of the country. And you know, I'm feel pretty confident 2553 02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:08,920 Speaker 1: what what my audience is interested in and and and 2554 02:09:09,080 --> 02:09:11,560 Speaker 1: what they're not interested in. And sometimes you gotta write 2555 02:09:11,560 --> 02:09:14,960 Speaker 1: about stuff they're not but in a way that's not 2556 02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:21,680 Speaker 1: like driving them crazy, you know. So um, it's so, 2557 02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:25,560 Speaker 1: I guess I'm just comfortable with it. I don't and 2558 02:09:25,760 --> 02:09:27,360 Speaker 1: I'll do this like I don't care about it. I've 2559 02:09:27,360 --> 02:09:31,600 Speaker 1: never care about a ward, like advised to speak at 2560 02:09:31,600 --> 02:09:33,000 Speaker 1: the like I don't want to go to any of 2561 02:09:33,080 --> 02:09:34,840 Speaker 1: that stuff, Like I'm much sure how to be home, 2562 02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:39,560 Speaker 1: like speak on this panel, like no, thanks God, no 2563 02:09:40,400 --> 02:09:43,320 Speaker 1: outstanding stuff. Dan Wetzel go follow him on Twitter at 2564 02:09:43,400 --> 02:09:46,040 Speaker 1: Dan Wetzel. If you've listened to the whole podcast, as 2565 02:09:46,080 --> 02:09:48,160 Speaker 1: I hope you guys have, you definitely need to buy 2566 02:09:48,320 --> 02:09:51,480 Speaker 1: Epic Athletes for one of your kids. Their sports biographies 2567 02:09:51,480 --> 02:09:54,600 Speaker 1: for middle school ers. Alex Morgan, Steph Curry, Tom Brady, 2568 02:09:54,640 --> 02:09:57,280 Speaker 1: and Serena Williams are going to be out soon. This 2569 02:09:57,520 --> 02:10:00,120 Speaker 1: has been the Wins and Wastses podcast. I'm Clay travi Us, 2570 02:10:00,120 --> 02:10:02,200 Speaker 1: He's Dan Wetzel. Thanks for hanging with us. We'll talk 2571 02:10:02,240 --> 02:10:04,720 Speaker 1: to you next week. M