1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Susan Cox Powell vanished from her 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: West Valley City home in December two thousand nine. Her husband, 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Josh was suspected in her disappearance. He killed himself and 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: their children in two thousand twelve. Susan has never been found. 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: This case is still being actively investigated. A private investigator 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: working for Susan Cox Powell's family tells me they've made 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: significant progress in cracking a computer owned by Josh Powell. 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: If they can get into it, they think this could 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: be a big breakthrough in the missing person's case. No one, 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: especially in two thousand nine, we put that kind of 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: encryption on their computer unless they were turning to hide stuff. 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: Where we would really like to find on that car 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: drive is any kind of information that leads us to 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: a body. This is the most hopeful lead we've had 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: yet in the process of trying to find Susan. As 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: long as I live, I will never forget when Susan 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: Cox Powell did appeared. As long as I live. This 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: beautiful young I think she was a stockbroker and investment banker. 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: But what always sticks out in my mind is that 21 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: she was devoutly religious and a mother of two beautiful 22 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: baby boys. Beautiful. I've listened over and over and over 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: to her friends and neighbors that said she had such 24 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: a happy marriage to her husband Josh. Well, I didn't 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: see that at all when I first heard that Susan 26 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: was missing, and that the day she goes missing, she 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: had a lady over at the house, and I've I've 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: listened to what the lady has to say, who was 29 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: working on a quilt or some project for the church 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: that afternoon until about five thirty, and Susan was tired 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: and she took a nap, and so the woman was 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: there until five thirty. Everything was fine. Then we learned 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: that night, at about midnight, her husband, Josh Powell, decides 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: to take the boys camping, repeat camping. I think there 35 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: were two and four at that age, or four and six, 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: and it was sub freezing weather. It's like fourteen degrees 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: out and he gets in the car and takes the 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: boys camping at midnight on a Sunday night with a 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: work day the next morning. That's when I knew something 40 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: was horribly wrong. I'm talking about the disappearance of Susan 41 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: Cox Powell and to this day I sware it then 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: and I swear it now. I'm not letting go of 43 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: this case until we know the truth. I Nancy Grace, 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 45 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: I want to go straight out to a very special guest. 46 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: Um with me is Rose Winquist, the Susan Cox family 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: private investigator, high profile lawyer, the Cox family lawyer. And 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: Bremner my personal friend, my friend ben levitant telecommunications expert, 49 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: tech expert, and boy do we need him today. And 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Denise Cox Ernst. This is Susan's sister that I think 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: a great deal of. Denise. It's wonderful to hear your 52 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: voice again, and I only wish I knew you under 53 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: other circumstances. That's what I wish, Denise. Before I get 54 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: to what I perceived, a big development in the case, 55 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: and that is Rose Winquest possibly being able to to 56 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: crack a highly encrypted computer belonging to the husband, Josh, 57 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: can you tell us set the scene for this discussion 58 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: The day that Susan goes missing, Denise, I had talked 59 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: to her about a week before. She was planning to 60 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: come out to Washington a little early to spend some 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: time with my children. And we were planning on you know, 62 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: her favorite show was Friends, and we were planning on 63 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: doing a friend day and she likes to do my 64 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: kids hare and you know, everything was fine when we go. 65 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: You were going to watch Friends all day? Is that 66 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: what you're gonna? Okay? Because I'm planning a Harry Potter weekend. 67 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: As soon as the children get out of and have 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: skill friend, We're gonna just lay around and watch Harry 69 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: Potter and and Narnia. That's what We're just gonna watch 70 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: it and watch it and watch it until I just 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: can't watch it anymore. So she likes the show Friends. 72 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: That was our favorite. You know what I like hearing 73 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: this about her. So she loved Friends. So y'all were 74 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: gonna banjon Friends and do here? Right? Sounds fun? Well, 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: we had we also had a game and we always 76 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: had a contestancy who knew more about the show, you know, 77 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: her eye and the game was a lot of fun. 78 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: But you know, we got off the phone and she 79 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: had to go, of course. And you know, a week later, 80 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: my dad called me and I was at work and 81 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: he asked me, wait a minute, wait a minute, today's everybody, 82 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: don't get mad at me for interrupting. You said she 83 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: had to go. Of course, now I know what that means, 84 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: But could you tell everybody else what you mean? When 85 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: I was an abusive marriage at the time, and from 86 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: talking to her, I know it seemed like she had 87 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: the perfect marriage to everybody from you know, she put 88 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: up a good front. But with our conversations, I knew better. 89 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: And we both had to sneak our conversations with each other. 90 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: And when we did it with our husband's home, we 91 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: both had listening to ears and we had to be 92 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: careful what we said. And when I got to talk 93 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: to her, it was barely for about twenty minutes, you know, 94 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: twenty five minutes, you know, when our husbands were listening, 95 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: and then he you know, one of them would encourage 96 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: us to get off the phone because you know, there 97 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: are attentions not on them and I could always hear 98 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: Josh in the background saying in other words, when Josh 99 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: was around, you couldn't talk to not really at it. 100 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: So she had to get off the phone. Then, um, 101 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: a week later, she just I got a phone call 102 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: from my dad asked if I darted from her, and 103 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: I knew where she was, and you know, obviously from 104 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: that week before I that was the last time I 105 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: had heard from her. Thinking then, you know, at first 106 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: I thought nothing of it because she had you know, 107 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: my thought, maybe she went to a friends or you know, 108 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 1: she was busy doing something for work. But when it went, 109 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, three days not hearing from her, I got 110 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: alarmed then because I would have heard from her if 111 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: there was something going on. We're pretty close. Then what happened? 112 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: Search parties um a lot of anxiety, wondering where she 113 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: is waiting by the phone. Look, you know, just waiting 114 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: it's a waiting game, as it's a waiting game now, 115 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,559 Speaker 1: and wondering what happened to her? Well, wait a minute, 116 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: didn't you ask Josh? Didn't you ask Josh where Susan? 117 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: Why is she not? He wouldn't answer my phone call. 118 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: I tried calling her phone, and of course she didn't answer. 119 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: And you know, when I talked to my dad, had 120 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: tried to find out from Josh where she was, and 121 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: I tried asking him. He didn't want to talk to 122 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: our family at all. He didn't like our friendly at all, 123 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: but he didn't he didn't talk to me very much, 124 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: and he knew how I felt about him, so he 125 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: wasn't forthcoming on any information. He dodged the family. I'm 126 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: just having a hard time even getting my mind around that, 127 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: because if I couldn't find David, I mean, and then 128 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: somebody wouldn't his family or his friends are the people 129 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: at his building where he works, wouldn't answer me. I mean, 130 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: I go set the place on fire for Pete say, 131 00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: and I don't understand why he wouldn't even speak to 132 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: you or answer your calls to me. That's a very 133 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: bad sign. Okay. What we know happened after that is 134 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: based on a relative there in town. The police go 135 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: to the house. They get to the home, it's locked 136 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: up tight, and nobody answers. Very significant fact and Bremner 137 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: Cox family lawyer, is that when that morning when she 138 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: didn't show up to work, remember the camping trip in 139 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: the middle of the snow with two little tots was 140 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: on a Sunday night. The next morning, Monday, she she 141 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: Susan Cox Powell, did not show up to work. That 142 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: was a problem. And so the police go to the house. 143 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: The house is sealed up tight. A relative goes, yes, 144 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: open the window, break in. The police break wind. They 145 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: get entered the door, they find a wet a big 146 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: wet spot on the carpet in front of the love seat, 147 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: which I guess is in the living room with din 148 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: with two giant fans acing it, blowing on it. The 149 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: house was left like that. They also significant significant see 150 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: her purse, her I d her car, keys, her credit cards, 151 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: for driver's license, everything is in the home. So what 152 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: did she do leave on foot? Her car car is 153 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: not missing. What did she leave on foot in the 154 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: snow that night? When Josh was Josh Powell was asked 155 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: later and I've watched him, I've watched his face when 156 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: he answers where why didn't she go with you camping 157 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: that night? He just simply says she didn't want to. 158 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: It would have been a cold day and h G. 159 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: Double l and Bremner high profile Seattle lawyer and Cox 160 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: family lawyer. Then I would let David Lynch take John, 161 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: David and Lucy out on a Sunday night and sub 162 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: freezing temperatures to go camping. Uh n O and uh 163 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: absolutely Nancy. And that should have been probably cause alone 164 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: for the police in West Valley City. The jurisdiction where 165 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: this happened. And Josh had her phone. Um, and then 166 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: he took the SIM card out, and then he acted 167 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: like he was calling her at work. Wait wait wait 168 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: wa wa what and and it's like drinking from a 169 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: fire hydrant. Okay, it's just too much at once. So 170 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: Josh Powell and I do the same thing. I've studied 171 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: it so much, I just rattle off these facts. Let 172 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: me take in what you just said. So the husband 173 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: Josh Powell has her cell phone. Okay, again, it would 174 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: be a cold and h double l but I'm gonna 175 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: part with my cell phone. That's how I stay in 176 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: touch with the children's school and David and my mom 177 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: and everybody else. All right. Uh, So he has her 178 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: cell phone, then he takes the SIM card out. What okay, stop, 179 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: hold on, ben Levitan. What does it mean to take 180 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: a SIM card, s I Amazon mother, out of a 181 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: cell phone? What does that mean? Nancy? The SIM card 182 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: is everything that identifies your phone is yours. If you 183 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: take that out, it's essentially like throwing the phone away. There. Uh, 184 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: the phone will not send out any information. You could 185 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: not trace the phone very easily once that sim cards 186 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: out Nancy, Now, what do you have to do to 187 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: get the SIM card out? Ben Levitan? Everybody? Ben Levitan, Yeah, 188 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: longtime friend and colleague joining me out of Raleigh is 189 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: the telecommunications and tech expert. So what do you have 190 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: to do to get a SIM card out of a phone? 191 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: And why would you do that? Well, Nancy, Uh, there's 192 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: two types of cell phones. There's the ones where you 193 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: go to the store and they program all your information 194 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: into that phone. It becomes your phone. So when someone 195 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: calls you, boom Uh, calls automatically go to you. You 196 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: can easily make calls. So that's those types of phones. Uh. 197 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: That would be Verizon and Spread have that technology. The 198 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: other technology, which we call G S M. You can 199 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 1: go get any phone in the world and all that 200 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: programming information about your phone is on a little sim 201 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: card like a little memory card. You can stick that 202 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: little memory card into any phone that's compatible, and all 203 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you can use your phone. If you 204 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: take that little memory card out of the phone. Uh, 205 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: we can't find the phone. And it's very easy to do. 206 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: It's intended to come out in and out of phones 207 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: very easily. Because we anticipated back early in the days 208 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: that people would want to have, you know, one type 209 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: of phone for work, and then want to have a 210 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: different type of phone when you went out not at night, 211 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: and you want to have a little phone you put 212 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: in your pocketbooks. So we made these little cards that 213 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: you could easily encourage people to buy lots of phones 214 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 1: and just move the SIM card around. But once that's 215 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: SIM card, I don't know who has the money. I 216 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: don't know who has the money to buy three different phones. 217 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: But you're living, you know, in a different world from 218 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: they've been leviting. We have because an iPhone have a 219 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: SIM card in it. Uh. The phones that are for yes, 220 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: they do. They don't easily come out. It depends on 221 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: the type of phone, Nancy. Some phones, Uh, the SIM 222 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: card comes in and out very easily. It's almost like 223 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: an ATM card where once you put the UH ATM 224 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: card into a a t M machine, that machine is yours. 225 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: You know it. It's programmed for you. So on some 226 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: phones it's very easy to do. Sometimes let me ask you, 227 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,719 Speaker 1: this is how I compare it. I compare it to 228 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: a car without the engine. It looks like a car. 229 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: The doors open and shut. You can stick the key 230 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: in the ignition but without the SIM card, the phone 231 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: won't work. Without the engine, the car won't work, and 232 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: you can't see that on the outside. So he cracks 233 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: open the phone, according to and Bremner, and removes the 234 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: SIM card. That's something I didn't know, So what else 235 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: are you telling me? And Bremner? He takes a SIM 236 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: card and what else? Um? And then he calls acting 237 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: like he's just checking on her at work, and he's 238 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: very invasive. He gives a police statement that is very bizarre, 239 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: as do the kids? Can I back up? So that 240 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: we already know that she's not at work, so her 241 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: car is at work. So why they they know she's 242 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: not at work? Why would he call her at work 243 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: pretending she's there. What did he say on those messages 244 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: just checking in? He I can't remember if he said 245 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: something about giving her a ride, but he clearly was 246 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: trying to cover his tracks, you know, after the fact, 247 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: and he knew she was coming, I mean, and it 248 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: was very apparent from his behavior. I want to pause 249 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: very briefly and thank our partners making our program possible. 250 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: It's legal zoom. As business owners out there, you know 251 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: how important is You've gotta keep moving forward. But so 252 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: often things come up to take your time and focus 253 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: away from growing your business. 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Did you know that ten thousand 272 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: people are retiring every day? Hi, I'm Scott Carter with 273 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: PMKE Capital. How's your retirement planning going? No matter what 274 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: your stage in life, it's important to get ready. Don't 275 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: become income rich and retirement poor. Diversifying your portfolio now 276 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: will preserve your buying power later. Investors know that diversification 277 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: can unlock the key to their financial freedom. That's why 278 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: many are adding gold and silver to their portfolios and IRA. 279 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: PM Capital is in the diversification business. Our specialists are 280 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: standing by to help you. On your cell called pound 281 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: to fifty and say the keyword grace. It's simple to 282 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: diversify your IRA with gold or silver, helping you preserve 283 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: your buying power. Called pound to fifty, keyword grace. To 284 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: speak with our I a team that's pound to fifty 285 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: and say keyword grace. Pound to fifty, keyword grace. We're 286 00:16:51,160 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: ready to help with me. The sister or Susan Cox 287 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: and these Cox Arenest and the Cox family five and 288 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: investigator Rose Winklist. It's very significant, I believe to the 289 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: two of you, and I'll start with Rose. What the children, 290 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: the two little boys said about what happened that night 291 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: and the pictures that they drew rose. What has Susan's 292 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: children the two little boys said happened that night? Well, 293 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 1: to start, I think, um, when Chuck and Judy Cox 294 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: essentially got custody of the children, they began to disclose information. 295 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: Having been now at the ages of five and seven, 296 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: they started to remember some things or be more verbal 297 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: about things, and they started to disclose different things that 298 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: they remembered about that night they so called went camping 299 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. I think Josh left 300 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: probably around twelve or twelve thirty and they only had 301 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: one car by the way, so they knew when they 302 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: went over to Susan's house that morning that the kids 303 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: didn't show up for daycare, that no one had been 304 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: there because there was no tire tracks. There was snow 305 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: in the dryway and there was no tracks, so they 306 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: knew something was amiss. Now, just a back up for 307 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: a moment, if you don't mind, um. Josh actually, in 308 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: his interview with the police, removed his own simcard as 309 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: well out of his phone because he had a sense 310 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: that the police were going to confiscate his phone, which 311 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: they should have and then gotten a search warrant for it, 312 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: but they didn't, and so when they took his phone 313 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: to look at it, the SIM card had been removed 314 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: from his phone as well. So that was a pretty 315 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: just sit right now, That's a fact. And I've studied 316 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: this so much. I did not know this. And you know, 317 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of law enforcement because I have 318 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: been part of law enforcement. I'm a whole legal career. 319 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: But I don't understand this. Why in the world would 320 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: they not confiscate his phone and SIM card and hers 321 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: too immediately? That is the million dollar question. I wish 322 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: I knew they should have. Have you asked them? Why 323 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: do you think they didn't pursue him as a person 324 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: of interest immediately? You know, I haven't personally asked them. 325 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if that question has been asked directly 326 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: to the lead detectives that was assigned to the case. Um, 327 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: and we have asked it during deposition, But I'm not 328 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: sure about that. Let's find out. And Brenner, I mean, 329 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: I don't understand it because I firmly believe if Josh 330 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: Powell had been arrested immediately, the two little boys would 331 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: be alive today. The boys are dead, okay, And I 332 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: firmly believe if he had been prosecuted immediately, this would 333 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: not have happened. I agree in Answing even such a 334 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: friend to the family and throughout this tragic ordeal that 335 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: involved the deaths of the boys and potentially Susan although 336 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: she's still missing. Um. I tried to get their records. 337 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: I went to Utah three different times trying to get 338 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: records at three different hearings procedures. And you know, they 339 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: were slow to look at him as a suspect, and 340 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: they kept calling him a person of interest when actually 341 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: search warrants eventually did issue in the case, but they 342 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: had to sealed investigation. It was very hard to get 343 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: information about the specifics of what, if anything, they were doing. 344 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: All right, just tell me Anne, too many words? Are 345 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: they all tangled up in the Mormon church together? Is 346 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: that what it is? You? No, I don't know. They 347 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: were just they kept saying they couldn't prosecute without a 348 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: body kind of the that's not true. I mean, he 349 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: was with her that night, and he goes on this 350 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: big fake camping trip at twelve thirty at night out 351 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: in sub sub freezing temperatures with two little boys. My 352 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: question was back to Rose Winkrest. She's the Cox family 353 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: private investigator who was actually got a little crack in 354 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: the case right now. But what the children said? They 355 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: said the two boys said, Mommy went looking for crystals 356 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: in the minds. She went into the mind Daddy came 357 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: back and Mommy didn't. They had the children draw pictures 358 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: of the night she goes missing, that mommy disappears off 359 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: the face of the earth, and they have the picture 360 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: of Mommy in the car that night, but in the 361 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: trunk of the car. Right then, he should have been arrested. 362 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: What does nobody know? Children can be witnesses. Denise Cox Ernst, 363 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: this is Susan's sister. Why wasn't he arrested? I think 364 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: he should have been arrested when he came back with 365 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: nos and cards in the phone, I think he should 366 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: have been arrested. You know, when he said she three 367 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: went camping, he had no proof to couldn't give a 368 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: straight answer where he was. I believe he should have 369 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: been arrested. You know, two days after she went missing 370 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: and still hadn't returned. The majority, I mean, the rule 371 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: is majority. You look towards the spouse when there's someone missing, 372 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: that's who they usually first investigate. And I don't know 373 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: why they didn't do that in this case. It's very frustrating. 374 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: Let me come on, she's missing. He says that she 375 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: just didn't want to go camping, and the children draw 376 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: this picture. And I've used this technique a million times 377 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: when I was prosecuting a case where there was a 378 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: child victim or witness. You get them to draw. If 379 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: they cannot articulate or verbalize what happened, they can draw it. 380 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes they simply can't say the words. Sometimes it hurts 381 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: to say the words. Sometimes they don't want to want 382 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: to say the words, so they'll draw you a picture. 383 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: Those pictures get me shown to a jury. What is 384 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: so not true? It just makes me sick. When we 385 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: were younger, we were really big, you know, because my 386 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: dad wasn't boy Scouts in the church, and my sister 387 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: and I went Igloo camping. So to hear that she 388 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: didn't want to go camping, nor would she ever allow 389 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: Josh to take him camping. That night without her with him, 390 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: we went into Igloo camping, we were hiking. We were 391 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: very outdoorsy person. This is not my Susan was not 392 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: a stay at home, do your hair and nail's kind 393 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: of person. She was out there and very active person. 394 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: She didn't get to drive the family vehicle to work. 395 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: Most of the time she rode her bike. So when 396 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: he says that she didn't want to go, that makes 397 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: absolutely no sense to me. I know her better than that. Well, 398 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: wait a minute, it's midnight. It's midnight and degrees. Of 399 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: course she doesn't want to go camping for Pete's sake, 400 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: but I don't. I don't see her letting the children 401 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: go camping either. It's ridiculous and interesting. Nobody called the 402 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: daycare to say the boys weren't coming that day. So 403 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: here's what we see. We know that they he had 404 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: been camping many times before, and the children sent Mom 405 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: said Mom went to go look for crystals in a mine, 406 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: and she never came out. All right, Sunday night, fourteen 407 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: degrees outside. Daddy never arrested. They say daddy took mommy out, 408 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: Mommy didn't come back, and Daddy did. Okay, He was 409 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: never arrested. Nothing ever moved forward in this case. Then 410 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: out of the blue and Bremner Cox family lawyer Josh 411 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: Powell picks up and leaves town. It moves to where 412 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: he moves to the Pierce County And and the other 413 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: thing that Nancy is that he'd stopped payment on a 414 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: payment to the daycare on a check that was due, 415 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: and he did that before she went missing, So I 416 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: thought that. And the other thing is he took out 417 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: life insurance policies on her three point five million dollars 418 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: when he was essentially broke. She was the breadwinner. Yeah, 419 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: he came out here, left everything behind, you know, didn't 420 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: go look for her, No no search parties, no nothing. 421 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: He just moved with the boys. I'm out to Pierce 422 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: County here in Washington State. And so he moves to 423 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: a different state and with his father, who was a 424 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: whole another can of worms. Susan Cox's father in law 425 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: was then arrested on child pornography. He turned out that 426 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: he allegedly had almost five thousand pictures taken of unsuspecting 427 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: women dressing and undressing, including many of them of Susan, 428 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to her. And then he and his son Josh Powell, 429 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: start smearing Susan's name by saying she was sexually aggressive 430 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: on her own father in law, which is could not 431 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: have been further from the truth because Denise Cox, Susan's sister, 432 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: she told people she was very uncomfortable around the father 433 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: in law and actually made the family move away from 434 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: him because he kept making unwanted sex and answers on her. Denise, Yes, 435 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: yes she did. She told me about that actually quite awesome. 436 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: Before they actually moved, that he would peek under they 437 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: lived in his living room or dining room in his house, 438 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: and they had a blanket like curtain surrounding her dressing area, 439 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: and she caught him multiple times spine on her, and 440 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: he actually told her that he wanted to run away 441 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: with her and that he loved her, and that Josh 442 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: would share. Another thing that he also we became aware of. 443 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: He was accused of stealing her panty hose and he 444 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: would replace her panty hose with the same brand knew 445 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: and then take her used panty hose. Okay, whoa So 446 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: between the father and the son, I really don't know 447 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: which way to turn, But I'm focused on the little boys. 448 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: Been Levitan joining me telecommunications expert. Is there any way 449 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: to track by the car or the cell phone we 450 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: he went that night? See if this is so long 451 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: after the facts that the records just aren't kepta and 452 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: that's that's the big problem. Uh, there's still could be 453 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: records um of where the phones were, but it's it's 454 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: likely this far off the investigation that did not do 455 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: a forensic on that phone and not get the phone 456 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: records immediately just unforgivable. You know, it really is. Anne Bremner, 457 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 1: high profile Seattle lawyer representing Susan's family. Did he remove 458 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: his and her simkine before sim card from their phones 459 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: before the so called camping trip or after after? Oh, 460 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: dear Lord in Heaven, ben Levitan, You're right, if they 461 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: had gotten those pings, we would know where he put 462 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: her body right now. But that's not how it unfolded. 463 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: It's not how it unfolded. Rose win Quest, the Cox Family, 464 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: private investigator, Susan's family, Her parents got custody of the children. 465 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: They wrestled it away from the dad, and he had 466 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: visitation of the two little boys right which you know, 467 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: to me was unforgivable for him to have visitation rights 468 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: with these boys given all the red flags. Absolutely, So 469 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: let me go to Denise Cox, Susan's sister, Denise Cox 470 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: Ernst Denise if you can bring yourself to do it, 471 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: please explain what happened the last time two little boys 472 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: had visitation with their dad, Josh Powell. This is long 473 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: after mommy disappeared into the minds looking for crystals. One 474 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: night of the night before his visitation, I took them 475 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: into bed and they played the game of Hugs and 476 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: kisses Uh to Charlie, then hugs and kisses to Braidon, 477 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: and went back and forth. And after all those games 478 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: they were tucked in. It was Charlie's birthday on the 479 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: nineteenth of January, and we had planned after his visitation. 480 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: He made me promise to him that I would take 481 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: him to go get his fish for the fish tank 482 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: that we bought for his birthday, which is what he 483 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: had asked me for. They didn't want to go to 484 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: see their dads. They wanted to actually have me pick 485 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: them up in the morning and take them to go 486 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: get the fish and set up the fish tank. Those 487 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: boys were they went from when they first came to 488 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: my parents, scared, hiding and yelling at us. Two lovable boys, 489 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, just coming through the door. They grab your 490 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: legs and give you bunch of hugs. And they had 491 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: totally did a big change from when they were their dead. 492 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: They were finally feeling safe, they were feeling love finally, 493 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: And you know, it breaks my heart because I was 494 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: so looking forward to spending the time with him the 495 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: next day and had been shopping for made of honor dress, 496 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: and after that happened, I had to shout for a 497 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: funeral dress. And I cherished that night that I got 498 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: to tuck them in one last time, not knowing what 499 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: would happen the next day. It really hurts that and Denise, Denise, 500 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: what happened the next day, the day of their last 501 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: visitation with their dad, Josh Powell. What I was told 502 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: is after my parents go to church during their visitation, 503 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: and I said I was shopping and when they were going, 504 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: they didn't want to go, and my parents talked to 505 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: him into going, said we'll see you later after the visitation, 506 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: and they just didn't come back. It's like the boys knew. 507 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: To Anne Bremner, the Cox family lawyer, what happened the 508 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: day of their last visitation that we know named the 509 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: boys were brought by a CPS worker to a home 510 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: that was staged by Josh Powell. It wasn't where he 511 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: had been living. He'd staged it so he could look 512 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: better to the case workers. And the case worker brought 513 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: the boys up to the house and Josh said, you 514 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: put the door, and he said, um, I have a 515 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: surprise for you, and they ran to him and he 516 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: slammed the door on the case worker who was supposed 517 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 1: to be part of the visit, and the next thing 518 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: she knew, she smelled gasolene. And then he blew up 519 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: the house and he killed the boys with the hatchet. 520 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: He had a room in the back of the house 521 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: that had all their toys, and that's where they were running, 522 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: because that's where they ended up. And he killed himself 523 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: and he killed both of those boys. It was unbelievably horrific. 524 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to understand why why he had to 525 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: kill the two little boys? Um do you believe? And 526 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: Bremner that there was at pending arrest and prosecution for 527 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: the murder of Susan Cox Powell. I had been told 528 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: that by the West Valley City Police, and there have 529 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: been a search warrant executed out of his dad's house 530 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: that led to his dad's arrest for the porn and voyeurism, 531 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: including a little girls that live next door. And it's 532 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: a very very lengthy search warrant and it all pertained 533 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: to getting those journals. That um, that that was both 534 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: Stephen and Josha talked about. That was the purpose of 535 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: the warrant, and then they found all of these other things. 536 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: But my point is is that it like they were 537 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: close because they listed so many items of incriminating evidence 538 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: against Josh Pale. And one other thing, Josh Pale had 539 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: been ordered by the court to take a psycho sexual evaluation, 540 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: and his reaction in court that day, Um, he showed 541 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: extreme anger. He was yelling at his lawyer and a 542 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: lot of angst. And that was right before he killed himself. 543 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: In the book, now, what was that entail? And Bremner, 544 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: you're the cops family lawyer. Why was he ordered to 545 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: take a psycho sexual evaluation? And how many years after 546 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: Susan quote god missing? Had this been that the cops 547 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: were still you know, not making an arrest or doing anything. 548 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: How long had passed that Susan goes missing? And what 549 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: would the psycho sexual evaluation entail, Well, it had been 550 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: a number of years and it wouldn't tail a polygraph. 551 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: It would also entail a placismograph, and the placismograph would 552 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: show aberrant reaction or reactions to aberrant kind of interest. 553 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: Because he also had cartoon child porn fo images on 554 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: his computer back in Utah, and then his father had 555 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: all kinds of corn throughout the house, multiple computers. Let 556 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: me ask you a question. Are you saying that Josh 557 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: Powell had uh sexual cartoons on his computer? Yes, of 558 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 1: incest cartoons. 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Thank you for all the joy you're 589 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: bringing to people in their pits, but thank you for 590 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: being our sponsor today. I'm just trying to take that 591 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: d so when the court ordered him, and this is 592 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: all because of a search warrant that was done on 593 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: the dad's home, during which they covered thousands of disturbing images, 594 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: including some of alleged child porn and voyeurism on women, 595 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: unsuspecting women of their body parts, and sex organs when 596 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: they were changing clothes, including Susan. They find all this. 597 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: They also find disturbing issues with Josh Powell, Susan's husband. 598 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 1: As a result of this extensive search, the court orders 599 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: Josh Powell to undergo a psycho sexual evaluation, and he 600 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: goes berserk. With all this in mind, police still not acting, 601 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 1: he still gets the visitation with the boys. The social 602 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: worker brings the boys over. He says, come in, I 603 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: want to show you something, slams the door and locks that. 604 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: She immediately calls her superiors and the house blows up. 605 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: We now know he also attacked the two little boys 606 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: with a hatchet, the two little boys that had already 607 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: been through so much, Denise Cox, aren't this is Susan's sister. 608 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: Do you remember the moment that you learned what had 609 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: happened to the boys, Denise Um? I was told at 610 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: first that they were blown up, and later on uh 611 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: that I was told that he had they had heard 612 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,959 Speaker 1: the social work had heard the boys scream and found 613 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: out that was as the result of the hatchett and 614 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: how he did it. He did not actually kill them. 615 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: They didn't die from those loans. They died from the 616 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: slope from the fire. And what really tore me apart 617 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: was they died holding hands. I don't know if Josh 618 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: positioned them that way or that's how it was, but 619 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: those boys are really close, so as me to know, 620 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: because Charlie has always been afraid of fire, that he 621 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,439 Speaker 1: had to die with his fear. Denise, I'm just trying 622 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: to absorb everything you're saying. And Ben Leviatan joining me 623 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: out of Raleigh, tell the communications and texts tech expert 624 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: renowned in his field. Then when I think back, and 625 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: there's woulda could have should have? You know, if they 626 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,439 Speaker 1: had done this, if they had done that. But Ben, 627 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: it's so simple if they had just not even named 628 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: him a suspect. But if they had just subpoenaed the 629 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: Peen records when Susan went missing, they would have had 630 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: information about where her body was. Based on that and 631 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: what the boys were saying and the pictures they were 632 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: drawing and the wet carpet and everything. These little boys 633 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: would be alive. They would be living with Denise right now, alive, 634 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: and well they'd be heading to college right now for 635 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, Ben, it would be so easy. Tell me 636 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: how easy it would have been, well, Nancy taking you know, 637 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: he took the SIM card out of his phone, and 638 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 1: that's a it's an amateur theory that that that's gonna 639 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: You know, he did that intentionally. One he did not 640 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: want phone calls coming into the phone, and he also 641 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: did one calls going out of the phone. It disabled 642 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: the phone. But in an exigent situation like this, we 643 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: contract the phone itself, you could find the phone. We 644 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: could have probably found both these phones within an area 645 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: of at feet, Nancy, we would at least know that 646 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: they were together. And if these phones were together, that's 647 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: enough probable cause I would imagine and and think about it, 648 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,959 Speaker 1: Ben levitaming. You and I have come through so many 649 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: criminal cases, intricate and complicated criminal cases. Think about it. 650 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,959 Speaker 1: If she were in the trunk like the little boys 651 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: drew in the picture, you know, he could not have 652 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: dragged her body that far in the snow, which would 653 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,479 Speaker 1: have if the phone had been paid, placed the phone 654 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: within you know, her feet of where the body was hidden. 655 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: I mean, was she even dead at the time he 656 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: left her? And my guess is that she was if 657 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: she had been in the car trunk like the boys 658 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: drew in their picture. But just by doing that one 659 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: simple thing, I mean, in my mind, these detectives must 660 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: wake up every morning with the two boys faces, you know, 661 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 1: in their minds. I first thing every morning, because if 662 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: they had done that one simple thing, these children, I 663 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 1: believe would still be alive today. For some reason, police 664 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: kept holding off on taking action against Josh Powell. I 665 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: I don't understand it. Rose Wink was with me, Susan 666 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: Cox Family private investigator. Right now, Rose, you are undertaking 667 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: something the cops have not been able to do, and 668 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: that is to crack the encryption code. This is back 669 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine and Josh Powell had so 670 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: heavily encrypted his computers. Even the cops haven't been able 671 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: to break in yet. But you've you made little headway. 672 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: And this is so important, Rose, because maybe Google search, 673 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:12,959 Speaker 1: a Google map, search, am emails something may reveal where 674 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: she is. Tell me about the encryption, Rose A. Win Quist. Well, 675 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: to start um, once Josh had killed the little boys, 676 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: and then committed suicide. Essentially, his brother Michael, subsequently jumped 677 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: off a parking garage bridge in Minneapolis. Then the police, 678 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: at some point after what they suspected to be the 679 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: people that were complicit in her disappearance, decided to deem 680 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: the case cold, and Bremner, the attorney that I'm working 681 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: for through the Cox family, asked West Valley Police Department 682 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: multiple times since this quote the Sensus case was called 683 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: old um, it should have been turned over. We wanted 684 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: the case. We wanted the case. We wanted the case. 685 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: We wanted to see what they had done, what they 686 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: hadn't done, what leads there were. Finally, finally, after the 687 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: people that they deemed responsible were dead, they turned over 688 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: the case. They were supposed to turn it over unredacted. 689 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: It came back redacted in a way that it was 690 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: really difficult to put together a timeline because they left 691 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: things out. The multiple times I get I request nine 692 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: one one calls, for example from tipsters that are complete 693 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: with phone numbers and names and what the tip is, 694 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: they went as far to redact that information, which is 695 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: which is rarely in my view, for at least in Washington, 696 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: they give you all of that and they didn't, so 697 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: fast forwarding, we then got the case file, and we're 698 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: able to via a timeline, put together some events and 699 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: leads that the police simply didn't follow up on. So 700 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: Chuck Cox and Denise and Susan Cox, Powell's sister, and 701 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: myself and my husband went on a road trip because 702 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: we found that there was a point where where where 703 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: Josh had another phone and it pinned somewhere in Oregon 704 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: around the place where Michael's car had been towed to 705 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: a salvage yard. It didn't appear to be disabled or 706 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: broken in any way. It was he apparently, or his 707 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: sister called Elena. Elena is his sister Powell called a 708 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: toeyard and they came and got it and gave him 709 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: a hundred bucks for it or whatever. And the police 710 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: found out about this. But this is in two thousand 711 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,479 Speaker 1: and all, and of course Susan disappeared in two thousand nine. 712 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: So here we are some three and a half years later, nearly, 713 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: and they took cadaver dogs to this salvage yard and 714 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: loan behold, these cadaver dogs immediately hit on the trunk 715 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: of Michael's car. Well prior to them finding out that 716 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: Michael had taken this car to a salvage yard. Uh. 717 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: He somehow got ahold of Google and was trying to 718 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: get Google to manipulate their maps so that his car 719 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't show up if it were searched by the police 720 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: on the Google Maps. And when he figured out that 721 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 1: the police had figured out information that he didn't really 722 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: want them to know, that's when he decided to commit suicide. 723 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: So boom, there's another one gone that obviously had clear 724 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: information about Susan. That is overwhelming. Ben levitan Um, tell 725 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: me how difficult it can be to crack the code 726 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: on an encryption Well, Nancy, this is we have the 727 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: hard disk. Think of encryption is, uh, you know, when 728 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: you read an email, you read from left to right 729 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: and top to bottom. What encryption does is just gramble 730 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: that completely. And you need you need a password which 731 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: is about a hundred and twenty eight letters and characters 732 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: long to figure out what order you should read these 733 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: letters in it. So it's it's it's technically incredibly hard 734 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: to do. There's there's uh formulas you can try to 735 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,240 Speaker 1: figure out. These things can take years and years to decrypt. 736 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: But one thing that can be done and can be 737 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: done right now, Nancy. When we do an investigation on 738 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: a hard disk, we don't use the original hard disc 739 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: because we don't want to risk changing into the data. 740 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: We make copies of it. So whoever is doing the 741 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: forensics examination is doing a copy uh the exam out 742 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: of copy of the hardness. There's no reason you can't 743 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: make a thousand copies of this hardness, send it out 744 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,720 Speaker 1: to a thousand forensic experts and maybe get this code cracked, 745 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, years sooner. Nancy. What would it mean, Denise 746 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,800 Speaker 1: cox Ernst to Susan's parents to be able to find 747 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: Susan's remains and bury them with her children. It would 748 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: mean a lot. We've been looking for her for almost 749 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: eight years now, and the hardest part about going on 750 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: is not knowing what happened and not being able to 751 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: fill at peace or any sense of finality of this event. 752 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 1: We to my parents are starting to know. We we've 753 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,800 Speaker 1: all had to move on. But you don't go a 754 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,800 Speaker 1: day without wondering what happened and without thinking you know, 755 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: where is she? And it would it would be amazing 756 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 1: to finally be able to you know, visit her and 757 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: have a peace of mind on knowing what happened or 758 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:18,760 Speaker 1: having some closure of some sort. On this case, Susan 759 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,359 Speaker 1: meant the world to us, and it's it's really hard 760 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: to go, you know, to go to that grave site 761 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: and you're mourning the boys, and you still wondering where 762 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: is Susan. And it gets harder after so long, it does. 763 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,359 Speaker 1: It never gets easier after time goes on, it gets 764 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:44,320 Speaker 1: harder every time. Our prayer today is for peace for 765 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: Susan's family and for justice as much as it can 766 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: be attained. New the niece then and Rose, thank you 767 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: for being with us. Nancy Grace by Story signing off, 768 00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: good bye friends,