Speaker 1: Today, It's great to have Tall Ben Shahara on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Tall is a best selling author and leadership expert. He
Speaker 1: taught two of the largest classes in Harvard University's history. Today,
Speaker 1: he consults in lectures around the world to executives in
Speaker 1: multinational corporations, the general public, and at risk populations. The
Speaker 1: topics he lectures on include leadership, happiness, education, innovation, ethics,
Speaker 1: self esteem, resilience, goal setting, and mindfulness. His books have
Speaker 1: been translated into more than twenty five languages. Tall is
Speaker 1: the founder of Happiness Studies Academy, an online program that
Speaker 1: provides the knowledge and the tools to generate happiness for
Speaker 1: individuals and school communities. Tall so so good we could
Speaker 1: finally arrange this chat. Yeah, I'm so good to be
Speaker 1: here as Scott. You're a really interesting cat, you know that,
Speaker 1: looking into your background and everything. What did my wife
Speaker 1: tell you to say that? No, that's the opinion I
Speaker 1: formulated based on my research of your entire life. And
Speaker 1: you know, I dug up some stuff, Tall, I dug
Speaker 1: up some stuff from your past, So this is interesting.
Speaker 1: Prior pursuing teaching in psychology, you were on the professional
Speaker 1: squash circuit until you experienced a career ending injury. Is
Speaker 1: that right? That is correct? You know, Scott, I remember
Speaker 1: when I was sixteen having the following thoughts. I thought
Speaker 1: to myself, what would I be doing when I can
Speaker 1: no longer play squash? It was not one of the
Speaker 1: but the central element in my life, and I resolved
Speaker 1: them to become a squash coach once I retired. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I did have when I was twenty one and almost
Speaker 1: twenty two, I did have a career ending injury, and
Speaker 1: that led me on a very different path. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: but or was it a very different path? You know?
Speaker 1: I read some of these really interesting books, like Michael Murphy,
Speaker 1: you know, the founder of vessel and he's write a
Speaker 1: book about golf, you know, and how can we to
Speaker 1: transcendent experiences? You know, I'm wondering. You know, in your
Speaker 1: squash days, did you experience inner happiness? You know, on
Speaker 1: the squash court? Maybe it's not as disconnected as we think. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: you know, you're right, And I often think about, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember the book All I needed
Speaker 1: to Learn, All I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. Well,
Speaker 1: I often think that all I needed to learn or no,
Speaker 1: I learned from the squash court. So yeah, there are
Speaker 1: many parallels and even and they are not indirect links.
Speaker 1: So even you know, my thinking about happiness today has
Speaker 1: a lot to do with my squash experience in that
Speaker 1: I was actually generally not happy. I mean, I felt
Speaker 1: a sense of meaning and purpose, but I had a
Speaker 1: constant not in my stomach, and I felt stressed, and
Speaker 1: I thought that winning tournaments, fulfilling, you know, reaching certain
Speaker 1: milestones objectives would make me happy. That I won a
Speaker 1: few tournaments, and I was happy, but just for a
Speaker 1: very short period of time. And it was the first
Speaker 1: time when I thought about it. I mean, the thought
Speaker 1: wasn't formulated, but you know, I realized that happiness is
Speaker 1: about much more than just reaching milestones attaining goals, and
Speaker 1: it was much more than about success. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: you didn't go directly from squash player to Harvard. You
Speaker 1: also worked at a shipping company. Is that right as well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is great. There was my first my first job
Speaker 1: during college and after college, and the reason I got
Speaker 1: it was because the owner of the company was a
Speaker 1: squash player, and I think, I mean, I realized later
Speaker 1: on that he wanted a squash coach more than anything else.
Speaker 1: But you know, got me to do some fascinating work
Speaker 1: and to stay in that, and I stayed in ended
Speaker 1: up staying that company for quite a few years and
Speaker 1: learning a lot because you know, I spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time on ships, and on ship you know, you're sailing.
Speaker 1: There were cargo ships, so you know, you're sailing with
Speaker 1: a group of you know, twenty eight thirty men from
Speaker 1: ten countries. That's a lot of men. That's my first thoughts.
Speaker 1: A lot of men, a lot of countries. It's a
Speaker 1: sort of a microcosm. And I learned so much about
Speaker 1: but myself being on those on those ships, as well
Speaker 1: as about human nature and about different cultures. So it
Speaker 1: was really a formative experience on so many on so
Speaker 1: many levels. So so how did you end up at Harvard,
Speaker 1: you know, teaching a course that ended up becoming one
Speaker 1: of the most popular courses at Harvard's in Harvard's history. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: you know it was I think like most personal stories,
Speaker 1: you know, there's an element of of desire and planning,
Speaker 1: and then there is also an element of luck fortune.
Speaker 1: And you know, for me, given that I wasn't happy,
Speaker 1: I decided to switch my major, which was initially computer
Speaker 1: science at Harvard Psychology as as an undergrad, and then
Speaker 1: when I went back as a graduate student, then I
Speaker 1: had the real fortune of working with Professor Phillip Stone,
Speaker 1: who had started working with Marty Seligman in creating the
Speaker 1: new positive psychology. So in nineteen ninety nine, Philip Stone
Speaker 1: was one of the keynote speakers at the very first
Speaker 1: Positive Psychology summit and he took me along with him.
Speaker 1: So I attended that and it was love at first sight.
Speaker 1: So that and then I was a Professor Stone's teaching
Speaker 1: assistant for six years. It was and more than that,
Speaker 1: you know, he was my mentor. I was his apprentice
Speaker 1: for those six years. And when I graduated in with
Speaker 1: with my PhD, he was about to retire and he
Speaker 1: asked me whether I wanted to take over his course.
Speaker 1: He had been teaching positive psychology, and yeah, And I
Speaker 1: thought for about I think it was three or billiseconds,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, and I said yes. And so I
Speaker 1: took over his class and started to and I'm still
Speaker 1: teaching his class, following in his very big footsteps. You
Speaker 1: teach it now with your happiness studies academies, right so
Speaker 1: I'm teaching it through the Happiness Studies Academy. Over the
Speaker 1: years of expanded beyond positive psychology, and today I integrate
Speaker 1: philosophy and economics and neuroscience and literature and film all
Speaker 1: into this field of happiness because you know, so many
Speaker 1: people had so many wise things to say about the
Speaker 1: good life, not just positive psychologists and not just psychologists. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that you take a really broad perspective. Do
Speaker 1: you ever find that, like your the philosophy hunterdicts the
Speaker 1: science and then you're like, what do I do happening? Yes?
Speaker 1: Actually often, And this is why I do love science.
Speaker 1: You know, I come from computer science background. My first
Speaker 1: first book that I read, you know, other than cliff Notes,
Speaker 1: Don't tell my high school teacher was you know, when
Speaker 1: I was twenty three. Because I was always into the
Speaker 1: sciences and I'm still very much into the sciences. Though,
Speaker 1: I think the sciences and the humanities can and should
Speaker 1: inform each other. So when philosophers disagree, you know, when
Speaker 1: there's a conflict between Aristotle and Confucius, two giants, you know,
Speaker 1: says science can be that can be the arbiter. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting science being the arb science being the referee.
Speaker 1: That's kind of a funny, I thought. I don't know
Speaker 1: why it's funny, but it is. Yeah, So this time period,
Speaker 1: you know what an amazing time that was for you
Speaker 1: at Harvard. You know, I just want to like zoom
Speaker 1: in on that time. You know, put the field, the
Speaker 1: whole field of positive ecology was just emerging. There wasn't
Speaker 1: that much science yet on the science of happened. There
Speaker 1: was a Deaner's work, you know, life sat I'm trying
Speaker 1: to think, like nineteen ninety nine, like what was that?
Speaker 1: What was there in the psychological literature? You know, you
Speaker 1: had to kind of be a mcguiver a bit of
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying? Like there was you know,
Speaker 1: and bringing together all these different perspectives into a coherent
Speaker 1: whole that inspired you know, these kids. I still talk
Speaker 1: to their adults now, but those that were in your class,
Speaker 1: you know, and like uniformly, they're all like, it changed
Speaker 1: my life. So you did something that right there? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know so few things. First of all, now, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in Carl Rogers's claimed that what
Speaker 1: is most personal is most general. So when I got
Speaker 1: together that class, I asked myself, what would I have
Speaker 1: wanted to learn when I was a student, you know,
Speaker 1: sitting there in their seat, Because I struggled through through
Speaker 1: college and I knew when I was older that certain
Speaker 1: things would have helped me, so I integrated them into
Speaker 1: the class. So that's the first thing. Now the second thing,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, we are talking about you know, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine, early two thousands. Positive psychology is a new
Speaker 1: and emerging field, and at the same time it's an old,
Speaker 1: in fact, ancient field because every startle talked about the
Speaker 1: good life and had so much to say about it.
Speaker 1: And fast forward to the twentieth century. You may have
Speaker 1: heard of a psychologist by the name of Abraham Maslow. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think my audience has heard that name nauseum on
Speaker 1: this podcast. And in fact, the textbook that I used
Speaker 1: for my Tortoise Psychology of Being was it to psycho
Speaker 1: Psychology of Being, Oh my gosh, because you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Maslow wrote a chapter called Towards a Positive Psychologist,
Speaker 1: so he had a lot to say, still does have
Speaker 1: a lot to say about it, and in fact, you know,
Speaker 1: I thought about it recently. I think that there is
Speaker 1: an advantage in being at the at the onset or
Speaker 1: at the beginning of a field when there isn't that
Speaker 1: much content because it's exciting. It forces one to be creative,
Speaker 1: and it forces one to be eclectic, and there is
Speaker 1: a lot of value in eclecticism. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: value in in the need to look outside your field.
Speaker 1: And you know, if if a field has too many
Speaker 1: good answers, then there is no incentive to venture out.
Speaker 1: And I think venturing out is so important for and again,
Speaker 1: whether you're in a new field or in an old field,
Speaker 1: venturing out is so important because that's when you become creative, innovative.
Speaker 1: It's just easier to do when you have no choice.
Speaker 1: I think that's a really really good point. Well, there
Speaker 1: was all sorts of interesting things there, you know, people
Speaker 1: who ended up becoming big shots. There are three I
Speaker 1: want to just mention three three people. So, first of all,
Speaker 1: is it true Adam Grant was one of your all
Speaker 1: time favorite students at Harvard the organizational psychologist to give
Speaker 1: the author a give and take and lots of other bestsellers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what was he like as an undergraduate? Give us some gossip? Hey, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was Adam Grant many many Mini Adam. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: helped me a lot, I must say, taught me a lot.
Speaker 1: That is so cool. Yeah yeah, so you know, so
Speaker 1: you know he was my student, and that was the
Speaker 1: second one I was gonna mention. Yeah, so Lea Crumb
Speaker 1: was your t A, one of your tas, right, and
Speaker 1: now she is. She was my advisy and later became
Speaker 1: my t A. And so just for our listeners, Aliah
Speaker 1: Crumb is a professor now at Stanford University doing really
Speaker 1: awesome work on the possible effect and mindset and how
Speaker 1: mindset can affect our stress. I think of the nature
Speaker 1: she's she's a superstar now. And then now also that
Speaker 1: you had Sean Aker was a TA of yours as well. Yes, indeed,
Speaker 1: so Sean was the head teaching fellow who who masterfully
Speaker 1: managed the class. He also taught. He was already then
Speaker 1: an extraordinary teacher. And I must say it was so,
Speaker 1: you know, so a bit of the history of the
Speaker 1: class of the first year. I had just a handful
Speaker 1: of students, you know, eight to be precise, you only
Speaker 1: had eight students here for serious Yes, but I'm actually
Speaker 1: not telling you the whole truth here because two dropped
Speaker 1: out so that leaves with six. I bet they're regretting
Speaker 1: it now. I bet those two are regretting it now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope. So they really hurt me then, you know,
Speaker 1: to lose what is it, twenty five percent of the
Speaker 1: class in one felson. That wasn't easy. But you know,
Speaker 1: what doesn't kill you makes you strong. And it did
Speaker 1: and it did. Yeah, you're living proof of that. And
Speaker 1: the funny year it was the class grew and I had,
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of hundred, and then the third
Speaker 1: year much more than that, and and and it it
Speaker 1: was like running a mini organization, and you know, with
Speaker 1: twenty teaching assistance and and and you know, so many
Speaker 1: students and I have you know, the I couldn't have
Speaker 1: done it obviously without without Seawan, without you know, Jeff
Speaker 1: Paroti and uh and and so many other tas were
Speaker 1: teaching positive psychology today. And you know, we're still in touch.
Speaker 1: And it was a wonderful, beautiful time in your life.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you feel very nostalgic when you think about
Speaker 1: that time period of your life. Well, I was wondering,
Speaker 1: and maybe this should have been my first question, but
Speaker 1: how do you define happiness? I think it's a really
Speaker 1: important question. Yeah, it is an important question and not
Speaker 1: an easy one because there are so many definitions of happiness,
Speaker 1: and in fact, many people just say, well, happiness is
Speaker 1: like beauty. You know it when you see it, or
Speaker 1: you know it when you experience it. Cop out, cop
Speaker 1: out answer, but but but I but I do think
Speaker 1: it is important to define happiness, So I will not
Speaker 1: cop out of that one. Because when when we understand
Speaker 1: what it is and we're more like to to find it,
Speaker 1: you know, it reminds me. Sorry, I'm not coping out,
Speaker 1: I'm just deviating. We've talked before about this. You have
Speaker 1: a definition. But the Alice in Wonderland, you know, so
Speaker 1: when Alice meets the cheshire Cat, one of my favorite parts,
Speaker 1: and she's said she says to the cheshire Cat, which
Speaker 1: way should I go? And he said, as well, that
Speaker 1: depends where you want to get to, and she says, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter where I get to, And
Speaker 1: then well, it doesn't matter which way you go. So
Speaker 1: you know, if we want to get you happiness, we
Speaker 1: need to define it so that we know where we're going.
Speaker 1: So I see happiness as comprising five elements. They are
Speaker 1: the spire elements. This is the acronym. The first elements
Speaker 1: of the element of happiness is spiritual wellbeing. Spiritual wellbeing
Speaker 1: is about having a sense of meaning and purpose. It's
Speaker 1: about being present, being mindful in the here and now.
Speaker 1: Physical well being, the second element of a spire, is
Speaker 1: about nutrition. It's about exercise, it's about rest, sleep, recovery,
Speaker 1: it's about touch. And then there is intellectual wellbeing. Intellectual
Speaker 1: well being is about curiosity. You know, this is one
Speaker 1: of my favorite all time studies. Curious people actually live longer,
Speaker 1: all other things being equal. Oh yeah, Todd fashions work
Speaker 1: a little bit, shows that rights work, Carmeli's work, and
Speaker 1: you know, I find that fascinating because you know, they
Speaker 1: say curiosity kills the cat, but it actually helps humans
Speaker 1: live longer, which one of the examples. Yeah that like
Speaker 1: the animal studies, don't generalize to the human studies, you know,
Speaker 1: because with cats. Yeah, haven't done it on rats. So
Speaker 1: oh that's true, that's true. We should see hold out,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you could definitely see you know, cats, you know,
Speaker 1: need to curb their curiosity that I can see dogs
Speaker 1: as well. Cats don't read my book because it's dangerous
Speaker 1: for them. Actually, yes, but if they could read it
Speaker 1: all that would be dangerous, that's correct. And then you
Speaker 1: have under intellectual well being. You also have deep learning,
Speaker 1: which is also an important part of intellectual wellbeing. And
Speaker 1: then you have relational wellbeing the art of spire. Relations
Speaker 1: or the number of relationships are the number one predictor
Speaker 1: of happiness and its relationship with others as well as
Speaker 1: relationship with oneself. And finally, it's emotional wellbeing. How do
Speaker 1: you deal with painful emotions? How do you cultivate pleasurable emotions?
Speaker 1: So it's spiritual well being, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional.
Speaker 1: These are the five elements of happiness that make whole
Speaker 1: person well being or in a word, whole I love that.
Speaker 1: I really love that phrase. Don't you have like a
Speaker 1: whole being Institute or something? So I was one of
Speaker 1: the co founders of the Whole Being Institute and now
Speaker 1: most of my work is being done is the Happiness
Speaker 1: Studies Academy, which focuses on a whole being in the
Speaker 1: spinal that. Yeah, I just associate that phrase whole being.
Speaker 1: I think, oh Tall likes that. Free. I love that
Speaker 1: because I love that phrase. For a while when I
Speaker 1: when I saw you use it. That's great. So you
Speaker 1: say something about like deep learning, but I couldn't. Where
Speaker 1: do you slot that into the spot? Where's the d
Speaker 1: I'm confused about that one. Yeah, good, No, No, deep
Speaker 1: learning is under intell Oh I see. Okay, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. And and and since
Speaker 1: you brought that up, let me just say a few
Speaker 1: things about that. Because you know, when you say to people, oh, emotions,
Speaker 1: pleasurable emotions are important for happiness, you know, no brainer,
Speaker 1: Or when you say a sense of meaning and purpose
Speaker 1: is important for happiness, yeah, of course, or physical exercise.
Speaker 1: But people ask me, how is deep learning connected to happiness? Well,
Speaker 1: it's connected in a very deep way. Going back to Aristotle,
Speaker 1: whom I consider the father of the of happiness studies.
Speaker 1: You know, he talks about human beings being rational animals,
Speaker 1: and how contemplation is to in his mind, the most
Speaker 1: important pillar to happiness. But what is it about deep learning?
Speaker 1: You know, the first course that I took at Harvard,
Speaker 1: it wasn't actually in the computer science nor was it
Speaker 1: in psychology. The first course I took as an undergrad
Speaker 1: was in speed reading. This was during freshman week and
Speaker 1: it was a very important course because you know, we
Speaker 1: were required to read hundreds of pages a week at times,
Speaker 1: so speed reading important skill. However, looking back, I think
Speaker 1: an even more important course to teach to mandate on
Speaker 1: college campuses is slow reading. So learning to look at
Speaker 1: you know, one paragraph a short text, read it and
Speaker 1: reread it, and delved deeply into its meaning. It's wonders why.
Speaker 1: First of all, because we potentially derive a great deal
Speaker 1: of joy when we deeply engage with texts, or with nature,
Speaker 1: or with the work of art. Second, it also benefits
Speaker 1: other areas in our lives, for example, relationships. You know,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we see so much relationship
Speaker 1: hopping into today's world, why we see the dissolution of
Speaker 1: so many relationships, is because people no longer exercise the
Speaker 1: deep learning muscles. You know, the average amount of time
Speaker 1: that people spend on a web page is seven seconds,
Speaker 1: so you know, seven seconds and new stimulation, and now
Speaker 1: we need new stimulation, new stimulation, and these muscles are exercised,
Speaker 1: and then we need new stimulation in life, and we
Speaker 1: get bored very quickly. Instead, if we learn to delve
Speaker 1: deeper in too work of art or a text. If
Speaker 1: we really get to know a text deeply well, then
Speaker 1: we can use these very same muscles or they will
Speaker 1: be implemented automatically. Also when we engage and interact with
Speaker 1: a person. So you know, the right neural pathways for
Speaker 1: deep relationships are cultivated. We develop them when we engage
Speaker 1: deeply with a text or anything else for that matter.
Speaker 1: And relationships is just one example. You know, I would
Speaker 1: apply it to you know the world of business as well.
Speaker 1: It can help us better know a person, ascertain whether
Speaker 1: a deal is a good deal or not. So the
Speaker 1: deep learning muscles are very important muscles which in today's
Speaker 1: world most people do not use sufficiently. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: that you include that in your model. Where does creativity
Speaker 1: fit into your model? So you know, when it comes
Speaker 1: to creativity, and again, who am I to talk to
Speaker 1: you about creativity? But when it comes to creativity, you know,
Speaker 1: we need to create the right conditions, put the right
Speaker 1: conditions in place. So you know the work of Alice
Speaker 1: Eisen and Barbara Frederickson. You know, they point to to
Speaker 1: the fact that when we increase or improve our mood,
Speaker 1: when we experience more positive, pleasurable emotions, we are more
Speaker 1: likely to think outside the box. So that's so that's
Speaker 1: one element you know that that would go under emotional
Speaker 1: well being. Increasing emotional well being bad will will help
Speaker 1: us become more creative. But not only that, you know,
Speaker 1: intellectual wellbeing as well. You know, when we when we
Speaker 1: learn about different topics, we become more creative. You know,
Speaker 1: my personal favorite examples. So you know, so I love music,
Speaker 1: and specifically classical music, and specifically the the classical and
Speaker 1: the Romantic periods. So I listened to a lot of
Speaker 1: Mozart and Beethoven. If you listen to Beethoven's first two symphonies,
Speaker 1: they sound like Mozart. You listen to his third symphony,
Speaker 1: that's Beethoven, that's the Romantic beth Even now, Beethoven would
Speaker 1: not have become Beethoven without studying Gregorian chants and bah
Speaker 1: and uh and and Mozart. So he deeply studied these,
Speaker 1: you know. So the the the the illusion that you know,
Speaker 1: the great creative genius you know, brings creativity out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: It's an illusion. So so so deep learning contributes a
Speaker 1: great deal to to creativity. And let me give another
Speaker 1: example from spiritual well being. So part of spiritual well
Speaker 1: being is being present, being in the here and now
Speaker 1: flow me hichis and me High's the concept of being
Speaker 1: in the here and out that contributes a great deal
Speaker 1: to creativity. So if you look at similarly, by the way,
Speaker 1: there's also research that you know, having a good night's
Speaker 1: sleep that contributes to creativity. So every one of the
Speaker 1: spire elements, including by the way, relational well being, which
Speaker 1: is the only one that I didn't mention. I mean,
Speaker 1: creativity often comes in conversation. And I remember, you know,
Speaker 1: you and I met for lunch in New York City,
Speaker 1: and I don't know about you, but my creative juices
Speaker 1: were flowing, and I have very fond memories of that.
Speaker 1: And that was as a result of bouncing ideas. You know,
Speaker 1: we talked about Maslow, and we talked about you know,
Speaker 1: our respective histories and and and and our you know,
Speaker 1: desired future and and and and these encounters lead to creativity.
Speaker 1: So every one of the spire elements is part of
Speaker 1: a sort of the the foundation or the ground, the
Speaker 1: fertile ground from which creativity grows. Oh yeah, I absolutely
Speaker 1: love that. And my next question is more of a
Speaker 1: philosophical question because I'm really genuinely curious to know your
Speaker 1: thoughts on this. What's the benefit of putting all those
Speaker 1: things under the umbrella of happiness versus you slipped into
Speaker 1: the term well being while you're discussing this, So do
Speaker 1: you equate happiness with well being? And then what do
Speaker 1: you equate like some positive psychologists equate happiness with life satisfaction,
Speaker 1: positive effect, and so that what do you equate with that? Like,
Speaker 1: what do you call that? What they're calling happiness? What
Speaker 1: do you call that? Exactly? Why it's so important to
Speaker 1: define our terms, And in that respect, it's I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's arbitrary the way we define our terms,
Speaker 1: because you know, there is rhyme or reason, at least
Speaker 1: to us. But at the same time, there isn't a
Speaker 1: right definition. Now that doesn't mean there are no right
Speaker 1: or wrong in anything goes. You know, we know that
Speaker 1: doing certain things will have a positive impact and doing
Speaker 1: other things will have negative impact. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: whether you define happiness as comprising the five spire elements
Speaker 1: or happiness being about adding the each moment, moment by
Speaker 1: moment experience and you know the aggregate of these moments
Speaker 1: is happiness, or whether you equate it with well being
Speaker 1: or with life satisfaction. You know, that's a matter of choice.
Speaker 1: The reason why I chose to draw on the spire
Speaker 1: elements is because I think that is an inclusive and
Speaker 1: definition that brings together a lot of the works. You know,
Speaker 1: so Freud's work on the pleasure principle, Victor Frankel's work
Speaker 1: on meaning, Robert Nozick, or Daniel Conniman's work on aggregating
Speaker 1: our experience self you know at Dinners, and Daniel Conniman's
Speaker 1: work on you know, looking back and reflecting on on
Speaker 1: our lines. I'm including all those in in in my model.
Speaker 1: And yet you know, there are people who said, well,
Speaker 1: you should add different things. You know, recently a few
Speaker 1: people actually said, I mean, you should include financial well
Speaker 1: being under under happiness, because that's important too. And and
Speaker 1: my response is that if it's important for you included.
Speaker 1: You know, as much as I emphasize research, I emphasize
Speaker 1: me search even more, and and and and and that
Speaker 1: is what Masters emphasized a lot. So when he talked
Speaker 1: about doing a research in psychology, he talked about a
Speaker 1: great deal about you know, digging deep, looking into our
Speaker 1: best experiences and learning from those, not just about looking
Speaker 1: at research that aggregates other people's experiences cool, And it
Speaker 1: seems like you're really focusing on kind of the Is
Speaker 1: this fair to say happiness is kind of the emergence
Speaker 1: of the all operating and all cylinders and all those things,
Speaker 1: Because if you just pluck one of those things out
Speaker 1: of the context of the others, you get like, you know,
Speaker 1: you can get like a William James who was intellectual
Speaker 1: up the kazoo but wanted to kill kill himself, you
Speaker 1: know through most of his life. Would I wouldn't describe
Speaker 1: him as a happy person, you know, So it just
Speaker 1: seems like one of those plucked out of the context
Speaker 1: of the others is not necessarily happiness in itself, But
Speaker 1: it seems like you're using is it fair to say
Speaker 1: that's more of an emergence of you know, all those boxes,
Speaker 1: because you know every one of those matter, you know,
Speaker 1: even you know, you look at Victor Frankel as a
Speaker 1: person who who who searched for and found meaning in
Speaker 1: his life. But to say that Victor frank was happy
Speaker 1: when he was at Auschwitz, for example, you know that
Speaker 1: would be ludicrous. So, you know, meaning is not happiness.
Speaker 1: At the same time, a person without a sense of
Speaker 1: meaning in life, it would be, you know, really stretched,
Speaker 1: probably impossible to find happiness. So meaning is necessary, but
Speaker 1: not sufficient condition for happiness. And you can say that
Speaker 1: about each one of the inspire elements. Having said that,
Speaker 1: and this is often misunderstanding that about the model, you
Speaker 1: don't need to have them all to the end degree,
Speaker 1: or you don't need a ten on each one of
Speaker 1: those elements. And in fact you can't have a ten.
Speaker 1: And what you need is to ask yourself, so, which
Speaker 1: are the ones that are more important for me, and
Speaker 1: let me go, you know, full steam ahead on those,
Speaker 1: and at the same time manage the others so that
Speaker 1: they don't detract from from from from happiness. You know
Speaker 1: it has I'll draw a parallel here too to something
Speaker 1: that Peter Drucker, the the considered the man who invented management,
Speaker 1: or at least modern management studies. You know, he said
Speaker 1: about strength, He said, we need to focus on our
Speaker 1: strength and manage our weaknesses. He didn't say focus on
Speaker 1: our strength and ignore our weaknesses. I mean the same way,
Speaker 1: we need to manage all five elements of the spire
Speaker 1: and then primarily focus on those that are most near
Speaker 1: and dearer to us. So, you know, if I think
Speaker 1: about it, you know, personally, intellectual well being is extremely
Speaker 1: important to me, and and and therefore I spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time reading, you know, writing and learning at
Speaker 1: the same time. You know, physical well being, of course
Speaker 1: is important to me. But you know, I no longer
Speaker 1: or play professional squash, so I exercise and I do
Speaker 1: what I think is good enough in that in that area.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not I'm not training for the iron Man.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't work out, you know, three hours
Speaker 1: a day, but but I do what I know works
Speaker 1: for me, which is enough. And we need to to
Speaker 1: balance all these things because you know, there are only
Speaker 1: you know, twenty four hours a day, you know, twenty
Speaker 1: five before going back from you know, changing the clocks.
Speaker 1: And we need to to do the best that we
Speaker 1: can in the limited time that we have, and we
Speaker 1: cannot experience attend each one of the spire elements just unrealistic.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that you mentioned. You know,
Speaker 1: you're hinting at the fact there are individual differences in
Speaker 1: in desire to fulfill each one of those. Are there
Speaker 1: also cultural differences in how people and cultures define happiness differently? Right, Yes,
Speaker 1: so you know, when we look at and happiness, we
Speaker 1: need to look at it at three levels. The three
Speaker 1: levels are the universal, the cultural, and the personal. So
Speaker 1: the universal level, there are certain universals, you know, whether
Speaker 1: you're in you know, in Nairobi or or Sacramento or Shanghai.
Speaker 1: To be happy, you want a sense of meaning and
Speaker 1: purpose in life, You need to be physically active, you
Speaker 1: need to learn, relationships are keen. All these in every
Speaker 1: culture in the world, as you know, is gratitude and
Speaker 1: dealing with painful emotions. So these there are certain universals.
Speaker 1: At the same time, there are also cultural differences, you know,
Speaker 1: when it comes to two relationships. Again, in the US
Speaker 1: much more in individualistic. In Africa the idea of ubuntu
Speaker 1: I am because you are is a central concept, and
Speaker 1: in China much more collectivistic. So there are cultural differences
Speaker 1: that we need to take into consideration, and certain things
Speaker 1: that will make a European or a North American again
Speaker 1: I'm generalizing here, broad brushstrokes that would make them happy
Speaker 1: would not necessarily work or not work in the same
Speaker 1: way in Africa or Asia. And again very broad brushstrokes here.
Speaker 1: So there are cultural issues that we need to take
Speaker 1: into consideration. And finally, we need to take individual issues
Speaker 1: into consideration. And this is where research because not all Americans,
Speaker 1: or not all canyons, not all Chinese are alike. They're
Speaker 1: very different. And this is where we need to look
Speaker 1: inside and ask, for example, which one of the spire
Speaker 1: elements is most important for me, and what can I
Speaker 1: do in my life to to to increase the quota
Speaker 1: within that spi element Because for me it could it's
Speaker 1: studying philosophy and psychology. Perhaps for someone else it's studying languages.
Speaker 1: For someone else it's art. So there are individual differences
Speaker 1: as well, and we need to look at those three
Speaker 1: levels again, the universal, the cultural, the individual. You're here,
Speaker 1: you're here, thanks, thanks for that making those distinctions. What
Speaker 1: would you say to someone. Let's say a student came
Speaker 1: up to you. It was like, Professor Ben Shahar, I
Speaker 1: really want to achieve happiness. What can I do to
Speaker 1: achieve happiness? You know? What would you say to that student?
Speaker 1: I'd say too, I want to I want a high
Speaker 1: performance on happiness, I would say to them, Houston, and
Speaker 1: we have a problem. And the reason is the reason.
Speaker 1: That's my scooby doo, that's my scooby Doo. The reason
Speaker 1: is because of research that was conducted by Irish Moss,
Speaker 1: and what she and others showed was that people who
Speaker 1: stought of by saying, you know, happiness is very important
Speaker 1: for me, or you know, I don't pursue happiness and
Speaker 1: I'm going to be happier, they actually end up less happy.
Speaker 1: So the reason why we have a problem is because
Speaker 1: on the one hand we're told this, but on the
Speaker 1: other hand, we also know that happiness is a good thing.
Speaker 1: You know, first of all, it feels good to feel good. Second,
Speaker 1: you know, people are happier, as we talked about it,
Speaker 1: are more creative, they enjoy better relationships, they are physically healthier,
Speaker 1: they they're nice or kind. You know, we all want happiness.
Speaker 1: It's a good thing. And yet on the other hand,
Speaker 1: we know Irisma's research that waking up in the morning
Speaker 1: and saying that, or going to our professor and saying,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to be happier and you know,
Speaker 1: what can I do to become happier that actually detracts
Speaker 1: takes away from our happiness. So how do we reconcile
Speaker 1: this contradiction or paradox or challenge and the way we
Speaker 1: do it is by pursuing happiness indirectly. So let me
Speaker 1: use an analogy before I give a concrete example. So
Speaker 1: the analogy is sunlight. You know, if the sun is
Speaker 1: shining and I'm looking up directly at the sun, that
Speaker 1: will hurt my eyes, that will actually cause me pain.
Speaker 1: So what can I do. I can break the sun
Speaker 1: rays the sunlight using a prison for example, and then
Speaker 1: indirectly look at the sun, and then I can really
Speaker 1: enjoy the colors of the rainbow. In the same way
Speaker 1: with happiness, rather than pursuing it directly, I can indirectly
Speaker 1: pursue it. And what are the metaphorical colors of the rainbow.
Speaker 1: They are the spire elements. So if I wake up
Speaker 1: in the morning and say, you know, I want to
Speaker 1: do work that's meaningful to me, or I want to
Speaker 1: be more present and meditate, that will contribute indirectly to
Speaker 1: my happiness. Or if I start exercising regularly physical well being,
Speaker 1: that's indirectly pursuing happiness. Or if I engage in deep learning,
Speaker 1: if I ask questions curiosity, that's indirectly leading to happiness.
Speaker 1: Same for cultivating relationships, investing in my relationships, making them
Speaker 1: a priority, or or expressing gratitude emotional wellbeing. These are
Speaker 1: always of indirectly pursuing happiness. So enjoying sunlight without being hurt.
Speaker 1: I love that, you know a lot of what we
Speaker 1: talked about, and even talking about that now you know
Speaker 1: it might be might be more of a privilege for
Speaker 1: some people or others, you know, And I'm wondering, you know,
Speaker 1: how can this positive psychology approach that you're putting forward
Speaker 1: try to lift up individuals who are most at risk populations? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so a few things. You know. The first thing is
Speaker 1: the foundation of happiness is first allowing in unhappiness. In
Speaker 1: other words, you know, happiness is not about being happy
Speaker 1: all the time, or a happy life is not about
Speaker 1: experiencing a constant high all the time. In fact, it's
Speaker 1: about embracing painful emotions, accepting the fact that they're part
Speaker 1: and parcel of every life difficulties, hardships, and paradoxically, when
Speaker 1: we accept and embrace painful emotions, that's when we open
Speaker 1: ourselves up to two more happiness. So, you know, saying
Speaker 1: that or promising that, you know, the if you truly
Speaker 1: understand happiness and do all the right things so to speak,
Speaker 1: you'll experience a constant high. You know that that's a detached,
Speaker 1: unrealistic notion. Second connected to this, it's not an all
Speaker 1: or nothing proposition. You know, people ask me today, who
Speaker 1: know that I got into the field of the happiness
Speaker 1: studies or positive psychology because I was unhappy? They say, okay,
Speaker 1: so thirty years hence, are you finally happy? And my
Speaker 1: answer to that is, I don't know. I don't even
Speaker 1: know how to answer this question. Why. Because I don't
Speaker 1: think there is a point before which one is unhappy,
Speaker 1: after which one is happy. I don't think happiness is
Speaker 1: not a binary zero one. Rather, it exists on a continuum.
Speaker 1: And in other words, I'm happier today than I was
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, certainly, but I hope ten years from
Speaker 1: now to be happier than I am today. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a lifelong journey, a journey that ends when life
Speaker 1: ends now. The point, therefore, is wherever I am on
Speaker 1: that continuum. The question is how can I become a
Speaker 1: little bit happier? What can I do to increase my
Speaker 1: levels of well being? And I can do that whether
Speaker 1: I am in the on the depressed side, perhaps the
Speaker 1: very depressed side, on the continuum, or if I'm doing okay,
Speaker 1: or if I'm doing great and want to be even
Speaker 1: happier than that. In other words, the field is relevant
Speaker 1: for all of us, and the tools can be implemented
Speaker 1: for anyone, anywhere, anytime. At the same time, the field,
Speaker 1: whether a positive psychology or the science of happiness, is
Speaker 1: not a panacea and it doesn't solve everything. And if
Speaker 1: a person is experiencing depression, then I recommend going to
Speaker 1: a conventional therapist or if necessary, a psychiatrist. And if
Speaker 1: you know, if we experience a serious poverty in certain areas,
Speaker 1: we need to alleviate the poverty and deal with the poverty,
Speaker 1: you know, going to There are certain basics, basic needs
Speaker 1: that that are more important to deal with than happiness. Now,
Speaker 1: if you can deal with them concurrently together, then great,
Speaker 1: it's the best of both worlds. But if you had
Speaker 1: to choose, do I alleviate severe poverty or do I
Speaker 1: teach them the science of happiness, that's a no brainer.
Speaker 1: You know, poverty first, of course, Why do you think
Speaker 1: depression levels are skyrocketing? Do you think there's a relationship
Speaker 1: between technology and cell phone use and depression? Unfortunately there is,
Speaker 1: and This is based on a lot of research that's
Speaker 1: out there. Whether it's Eric Kleinberg, who is a sociologist
Speaker 1: at NYU who has shown that the more time we
Speaker 1: spend on social media, the loanlier we are, and and
Speaker 1: then there is work by Gene Twine from San Diego
Speaker 1: who shows that the reason why levels of depression are
Speaker 1: so high among the teenagers is because they're spending more
Speaker 1: and more time on the smartphone technology. You know, the
Speaker 1: number one addiction today, not alcohol, non drugs, not gambling.
Speaker 1: It's technology and we're paying a high price for it
Speaker 1: now in moderation. Technology is great, but we've gone way
Speaker 1: way beyond moderation. Oh yeah, I have this other screen
Speaker 1: up of my Twitter that I've just been on the
Speaker 1: whole time and keep paying paytent Oh you said something,
Speaker 1: najah joking. I didn't do that. But you know, here's
Speaker 1: the thing. You know, compassion is is just over and
Speaker 1: over again in the literature, a really important tentative happiness.
Speaker 1: It just seems like social media, you know, just my perception,
Speaker 1: social media is causing us to be even more polarized
Speaker 1: and not talk to each other in a those who
Speaker 1: we disagree with. It's not. It's not we don't talk
Speaker 1: to them in such a compassionate way when we're performing,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to get likes, you know, And what's
Speaker 1: how do we get out of this rut and return
Speaker 1: to relationships and compa positive relationship comparts. That's the question.
Speaker 1: And you know, the most troubling study that I came across,
Speaker 1: maybe my entire career, is by Sarah Conrad, and what
Speaker 1: she found was that levels of empathy among twenty year
Speaker 1: olds today is, according to her measurement, forty percent lower
Speaker 1: than empathy levels of twenty year olds from twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: In other words, over a period of twenty years, empathy
Speaker 1: levels went down by forty percent according to this sture.
Speaker 1: Now it doesn't matter how you measure. You know. They
Speaker 1: did something similar in the UK and they found that
Speaker 1: teenagers and young adults displayed less empathy, less care less
Speaker 1: compassion towards other people. Now, why do we see that?
Speaker 1: And the answer is, I'm fortunately in technology, because how
Speaker 1: do you develop empathy? You know, empathy, as I see
Speaker 1: it is the moral language and the language of morality.
Speaker 1: And how do you develop a language, well, you know,
Speaker 1: take Vietnamese. Let's say, you know, Scott. You decide to
Speaker 1: study Vietnamese, one thing you can do is take classes
Speaker 1: in Vietnamese and you know, you know, three times a
Speaker 1: week go to class and you'll learn, and you'll you'll
Speaker 1: memorize the vocabulary, and you know you're a Vietnamese, will
Speaker 1: certainly improve. However, that's no match for going to Vietnam
Speaker 1: and immersing yourself in the language. That's when you really
Speaker 1: pick up the language. That's when you will get to
Speaker 1: a much higher level than taking classes in Vietnamese. In
Speaker 1: other words, immersion, that's the key. Now let's go to
Speaker 1: the language of morality, which is empathy. What does it
Speaker 1: mean to immerse ourselves in that language? It means to
Speaker 1: be together in person with other people, to play the
Speaker 1: same sandbox, to be around the same desk, to to
Speaker 1: to hurt someone and then see the reaction to you know,
Speaker 1: be hurt by someone, to cry and then to to
Speaker 1: to reconcile. You know, that's how empathy is cultivated. It's
Speaker 1: not cultivated when you are on on social media. Even
Speaker 1: worse things happen because you know, because you don't see
Speaker 1: the other person, you see that you get away with
Speaker 1: with horrible things and and the natural and it is natural.
Speaker 1: The natural sentiment of empathy is not cultivated, doesn't grow,
Speaker 1: doesn't develop. And yes, we can have more and more
Speaker 1: classes on ah, you know, value clarification and empathy and
Speaker 1: talk about the golden rule, and that's important. I'm not
Speaker 1: believing that their their value. However, that's no substitute for
Speaker 1: immersion in the language of empathy. And today kids as
Speaker 1: well as adults interact far less face to face or
Speaker 1: or in person. That's a real shame and it's uh.
Speaker 1: COVID didn't help that, did it. It didn't and and
Speaker 1: it's not and hopefully it is temporary, will go back
Speaker 1: way back to appreciating in person interactions. At the same time,
Speaker 1: not all is lost on when when when we are
Speaker 1: forced to interact online, because you know, while perhaps we
Speaker 1: need to have more virtual relationships today by by virtue
Speaker 1: of the situation, there is an important distinction that we
Speaker 1: need to make, and that is between superficial and deep relationships.
Speaker 1: You know, if I spend and an hour with a
Speaker 1: friend through sky through Zoom, we can have a very
Speaker 1: deep conversation, and that deep conversation does contribute to developing empathy,
Speaker 1: not the same as being in the same same room,
Speaker 1: around the same table. However, it's a lot better than
Speaker 1: just interacting through emojis or l o ls or other
Speaker 1: shortcuts to emotions. There are no shortcuts to cultivating empathy.
Speaker 1: Do you make a distinction between compassion and empathy? Again,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is a matter of definition.
Speaker 1: I think there are intimately connected. So a person who
Speaker 1: cultivates empathy the ability to identify other people's feeding in
Speaker 1: then to identify with their feelings, I think that person
Speaker 1: will be more compassionate, will be more caring. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you're you know, it seems like care is kind of
Speaker 1: the underlying thread, you know, across all that. You made
Speaker 1: an interesting point about more face to face interaction. I
Speaker 1: find that, you know, if there are people that are
Speaker 1: kind of I find them to be kind of jerks
Speaker 1: on Twitter, if I d M them, you know, direct
Speaker 1: message them privately and talk to them, they tend to
Speaker 1: be quite cordial with me. And it just makes me
Speaker 1: think that, gosh, maybe we should all be having more
Speaker 1: one on one interactions with each other than these performative
Speaker 1: self esteem attempts at self esteem boosts. You know, but
Speaker 1: if on Twitter or you know, the top backs knew
Speaker 1: how much they were approaching the person they were messaging,
Speaker 1: they would not do it. And not only they not
Speaker 1: do it, it would go a long way into strengthening
Speaker 1: you know, the the empathic, the compassionate connections in their brains.
Speaker 1: But when it just goes out there, you know, into
Speaker 1: the ether, it hurts without them learning or even knowing
Speaker 1: just how much it hurts. I love that. Well, so
Speaker 1: tell me about some of you one here with, you know,
Speaker 1: tell me about your latest endeavors such as the Happiness
Speaker 1: Dayes Academy. And then you have a Certificate in Happiness
Speaker 1: Studies CIHS, So tell our listeners about that because they
Speaker 1: might be super interested in that all that. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: the Certificate in Happiness Studies is a year long journey,
Speaker 1: which is actually a lifelong journey, but the year long
Speaker 1: journey is where participants get a lot of or over
Speaker 1: forty lectures and you know, fifty webinars and a lot
Speaker 1: of reading and exercises. And the purpose of this Certificate
Speaker 1: in Happiness Studies is to how participants become happier and
Speaker 1: help them help others become happier. And we have students
Speaker 1: from over sixty countries who are you know therapists and
Speaker 1: coaches and consultants and managers and teachers and parents, and
Speaker 1: you know the doctors. You know, the whole gamuts, people
Speaker 1: who are introducing the signs of happiness to their professional
Speaker 1: life as well as to their personal life, helping themselves
Speaker 1: and others become happier. That sounds great. That sounds really great. Well,
Speaker 1: I wish you all the great success with it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for chatting with me today. You're a
Speaker 1: legend in the field, so it was a true honor
Speaker 1: for me, you know, so thank you for the chat today.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, Scott, and I can wait to
Speaker 1: meet in person again real soon. I can't wait. All
Speaker 1: the best to you. Thanks for listening to this episode
Speaker 1: of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in
Speaker 1: some way to something you heard, I encourage you to
Speaker 1: join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com.
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