Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.
Speaker 2: I can tell you.
Speaker 3: Fathlet eleven, and it hasn't been easy.
Speaker 4: One hundred years, I said, man, I'm a kid.
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know that.
Speaker 4: Was a that was real painful, man, you.
Speaker 5: Know, because my life was discarded as if you know,
Speaker 5: like I was a piece of trash or something, you.
Speaker 4: Know, one hundred years and I had dreams and I
Speaker 4: wanted to do things.
Speaker 6: I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I was a very
Speaker 6: good young man.
Speaker 7: That is what happened in so many cases. The cops
Speaker 7: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,
Speaker 7: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,
Speaker 7: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off
Speaker 7: march in the wrong direction, and that happens in some
Speaker 7: any of these wrongful convictions.
Speaker 8: They open the cell door and I walk down stiff,
Speaker 8: and I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt
Speaker 8: very strange to be, like I said, to be walking
Speaker 8: without no chackles on my feet. I thought it was
Speaker 8: a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.
Speaker 6: This is wrongful conviction. So we all we all hooked up.
Speaker 4: Here are we here?
Speaker 9: We're here Test one two three. Sheriff Chip Harding, Albamarle County, Virginia.
Speaker 4: MS.
Speaker 1: Paul is from a correction facility and it's subject to
Speaker 1: monitoring and recording.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. It's me.
Speaker 6: I'm your host, and today we have an episode that
Speaker 6: is h going to rock your world. We have three
Speaker 6: guests today. I'm gonna save the best for last, but
Speaker 6: we have John Grisham in the studio with us. John welcome,
Speaker 6: delighted to be here, and Sheriff Chip Harding of Albemarle County. Yes, sir,
Speaker 6: good to be here Virginia. And on the phone is
Speaker 6: Yen Surring, one of the most remarkable people I know
Speaker 6: and one of the most extraordinary cases of injustice that
Speaker 6: we've ever covered on this show. So Yen's I always say,
Speaker 6: I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the student
Speaker 1: and I'm thanks to Chip in John as well.
Speaker 6: So this is a case that takes us back to
Speaker 6: the eighties, believe it or not, a case that has
Speaker 6: all the makings of a John Grisham novel, actually, because
Speaker 6: this goes back to Yen's when you were first an
Speaker 6: exchange student from Germany, a brilliant young scholar. From everything
Speaker 6: I'm told, this is a Jefferson scholar, a freshman at
Speaker 6: the Universe of Virginia. And yeah, and do you want
Speaker 6: to do you want to take us back there and
Speaker 6: tell us how this started?
Speaker 1: Sure, this was in nineteen eighty four in the fall.
Speaker 1: I arrived at the University of Virginia as a freshman,
Speaker 1: be called christ new students there, and I met a
Speaker 1: young woman there who was two and a half years
Speaker 1: older than I was Elizabeth Hasen, and we were both
Speaker 1: in the same dormitory. She had entered the university late
Speaker 1: because she had had an adventurous youth. She had gone
Speaker 1: to an English boarding school and run away with her
Speaker 1: girlfriend to Europe, things like that, And so she came
Speaker 1: to UVA quite a bit older than the rest of
Speaker 1: us in that dormitory. And I was not an American citizen.
Speaker 1: My father was a German diplomat. That's why I was
Speaker 1: living in a United States. And her family came from
Speaker 1: South Africa and from Canada. So we were drawn to
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 3: As being foreigners, not Americans, and the parts of.
Speaker 1: That false semester. In nineteen eighty four, we fell in love,
Speaker 1: and you know, it was quite a surprise to everybody
Speaker 1: else in the dormitory because she was very experienced but
Speaker 1: very mature. And I was, I guess, a nerd, an
Speaker 1: uber nerd and virgin to boot. So she was my
Speaker 1: very first girlfriend.
Speaker 6: You were a German uber version nerd. It's quite a combination, Yen.
Speaker 6: And she was a beautiful young woman, a striking woman
Speaker 6: who you know, anyone in your situation would have probably
Speaker 6: fallen head over heels for considering the circumstances. But the
Speaker 6: you know, it was of course a faithful star across
Speaker 6: love affair.
Speaker 1: Yes, and yeah, it was a very short lived love
Speaker 1: affair as well. Three months after we started dating, or
Speaker 1: maybe four months after we started dating, we went to Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. Spend a weekend together, and in the course
Speaker 1: of that weekend, she told me that she was still
Speaker 1: using drugs, which she had previously told me she had
Speaker 1: to stop doing, and that she needed to use our
Speaker 1: rental car to run some drugs from Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: To her dealer, who was also the university student back
Speaker 1: in Charlottesville, and I wanted to come along, but she
Speaker 1: wouldn't let me because she said that I was such
Speaker 1: a nerd. Nobody would no drug dealer would want to
Speaker 1: do business around me. So she drove off in the
Speaker 1: car by herself and came back eight hours later until
Speaker 1: she had killed her parents. And she said that you know,
Speaker 1: the drugs had made her do it, and they had
Speaker 1: deserved it anyway, and if I didn't help her, she
Speaker 1: would be executed. She would be back then they used
Speaker 1: the lecture too, She said that they would fry her.
Speaker 1: She said that I should be her alibi and tell
Speaker 1: the police she was with me in Washington. And I
Speaker 1: told her that that would never ever work, because the
Speaker 1: police never believed boyfriends or husbands or wives people like that.
Speaker 1: So I came up with this brilliant idea based on
Speaker 1: Charles Dickens, a Tale of two Cities, of all things.
Speaker 1: But I would take the blame for her.
Speaker 3: I would take the rap for her and save her life.
Speaker 1: Was based on a character in the Charles Dickens's novel
Speaker 1: Sydney Carton, who did that in this novel. The difference
Speaker 1: was that in the novel that particular character actually did
Speaker 1: get fixed. Whereas my father was a German diplomat, I
Speaker 1: thought I had diplomatic community. I thought that I could
Speaker 1: take the blame for her crime, and all that would
Speaker 1: happen with me was about be sent back to Germany
Speaker 1: and put in prison there, and a trevenile prison for
Speaker 1: about ten years. And I thought that given ten years
Speaker 1: of my life, was worth saving her life from the
Speaker 1: electric too.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's sort of a twisted nobility. It's you know,
Speaker 6: it's sort of very hard to imagine. But at the
Speaker 6: same time, people do crazy things for love all the time.
Speaker 6: And you know, as you and I have spoken on
Speaker 6: the phone at lengthy ends about this and the fact
Speaker 6: his wars have been started over love affairs, so you know,
Speaker 6: you're not the only person by far that's ever done
Speaker 6: something so crazy, but this is certainly an extreme example.
Speaker 6: And then yeah, go ahead, Jensory, not just.
Speaker 1: Say it's a bit like at the end of the
Speaker 1: movie Titanic, right when Leonardo DiCaprio lifts Kate Winslet onto
Speaker 1: that door to save her life and then he sort
Speaker 1: of sinks away and gives his life for her, you know,
Speaker 1: except I didn't lift Kate winslet up on that door.
Speaker 1: I looked at Sharon Stone from basic instinct upon that door,
Speaker 1: and then, you know, sacrifice myself for her.
Speaker 6: Yes, we were talking about this earlier and I said
Speaker 6: that it's such a strange fate that you happen to
Speaker 6: have only been with one woman and she turned out
Speaker 6: to be the devil. It's really something that is unimaginable.
Speaker 1: You know, It's calling her the devil is a little oversimplified.
Speaker 1: She was later diagnosed with a very severe personality disorder,
Speaker 1: so you know, she actually had serious mental health issues.
Speaker 1: And and of course she claimed that her mother had
Speaker 1: sexually abused her with the knowledge and cooperation of her father,
Speaker 1: and you know, there's there's some indications that that may
Speaker 1: have actually been true. Of course, we'll never know for
Speaker 1: sure now, but you know, she she was a troubled
Speaker 1: young woman.
Speaker 6: This I want to fast forward a little bit because
Speaker 6: I want to get into the current circumstance and how
Speaker 6: we can hopefully make a difference and get you home
Speaker 6: where you belong. But as things developed, you initially were
Speaker 6: not suspects and but then at some point you decided
Speaker 6: to to make a getaway. And this is back in
Speaker 6: the days when for people don't remember in the eighties,
Speaker 6: you can sort of travel the world under a different name.
Speaker 6: And it wasn't all these different It wasn't you know,
Speaker 6: so tightly monitored or regulated. And so you guys went
Speaker 6: around the world and ultimately ended up in England, which
Speaker 6: is also sort of a crazy adventure to think about
Speaker 6: these two lovers running away from the authorities, traveling the
Speaker 6: world with a suitcase, and you know, it's you know,
Speaker 6: sort of a it sounds sounds kind of romantic and
Speaker 6: adventurous and you know, cinematic at the same time. And
Speaker 6: you ended up in England, and that's when things began
Speaker 6: began to go wrong, right because you were ultimately arrested
Speaker 6: for passing bad checks, as I understand it. And then
Speaker 6: and then we get to the point where the false
Speaker 6: confessions come in, or your false confession.
Speaker 1: So the police both Elizabeth and me back from the
Speaker 1: jail to the police station and they actually wrote into
Speaker 1: the police station lab book that I was to be
Speaker 1: held in Kaninocado. In other words, I was to be
Speaker 1: isolated from the outside world and not given access to
Speaker 1: my lawyer. And that's exactly what they did. For four days.
Speaker 1: They interrogated me for four days, many many hours, at
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens and dozens of hours, and then finally,
Speaker 1: on the fourth day, I decided to keep my promise
Speaker 1: to Elizabeth that I had made fifteen months earlier, and
Speaker 1: I decided to take the blame for what she did.
Speaker 1: And that's what I did. I told them the story
Speaker 1: that she and I had cooked up. And of course
Speaker 1: that false confession contained many mistakes that the real killer
Speaker 1: would not have made. I described the clothing of one
Speaker 1: victim incorrectly, and I placed the other in the wrong room,
Speaker 1: and there were numerous mistakes like that which you should
Speaker 1: have learned the police to the fact that I might
Speaker 1: not be telling the truth. In addition to that, of course,
Speaker 1: at that time the police who were interrogating me were
Speaker 1: in possession of an FBI crime scene profile by one
Speaker 1: of the people invented crime scene profiling, one of the
Speaker 1: leading special agents, and that profile said that the crime
Speaker 1: had been committed by a woman in a close relationship
Speaker 1: to the victims. And of course I was a man,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know the victims like the one time
Speaker 1: for twenty minutes, so they should have known that what
Speaker 1: the story I was telling them was not true nevertheless.
Speaker 1: And then, of course, the other thing that happened is
Speaker 1: that just a couple of hours after I told the
Speaker 1: police that I did it, Elizabeth told the police that
Speaker 1: she did it. She said, I did it myself. I
Speaker 1: got off on it. But by that space the police
Speaker 1: had decided that I was a guilty one. So they
Speaker 1: actually let her withdraw that confession, which is hilarious in
Speaker 1: a way because they found hosting the prince at the
Speaker 1: crime scene and not mine. And you know, it's quite
Speaker 1: incredible that they let her with god that confession, but
Speaker 1: they did. And so they ended up charging me with
Speaker 1: being the killer, and they charged her with being the accomplice.
Speaker 1: You have one minute remaining. They charged me with being
Speaker 1: the killer, and they charged her with being an accomplice.
Speaker 1: And in nineteen ninety they put me on trial and
Speaker 1: convicted me of something that I did not do. But
Speaker 1: we get back. I could talk about the blood which
Speaker 1: they used at the trial and look changed later on.
Speaker 1: So let me hang up and call back.
Speaker 6: We're back.
Speaker 1: Hey, we're back.
Speaker 6: So there's there's a lot of things wrong with this case.
Speaker 6: There's so many it's hard to even fit them into
Speaker 6: an episode of the show, but one of them that
Speaker 6: I talk about, and as you know, you know, we've
Speaker 6: known each other quite some time, been advocating alongside this
Speaker 6: amazing team of people that you have. And what I
Speaker 6: say to anyone that will listen to me is this
Speaker 6: is an unusual situation because normally in false confession cases
Speaker 6: you have people who are trying not to implicate themselves
Speaker 6: and who may be of limited mental abilities as well
Speaker 6: in some cases. In your case, you were trying to
Speaker 6: implicate yourself, right, so there would have been no reason
Speaker 6: for you not to tell the truth if in fact
Speaker 6: you knew what it was. But the reason that you
Speaker 6: were wrong about these details is because you just didn't know.
Speaker 6: So here you had a guy who were stually the
Speaker 6: smartest guy in the room, and you were trying the
Speaker 6: best to save your the love of what you thought
Speaker 6: was the love of your life, and yet you were
Speaker 6: unable to get almost anything right because of the fact
Speaker 6: that you weren't there. So that makes it hard. And
Speaker 6: I do want to bring John and Chip into the
Speaker 6: conversation too, just to talk about this scenario that took
Speaker 6: place in England and the immediate aftermath of it. John,
Speaker 6: you want to jump in here.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it goes back to a confession, false confession, because
Speaker 7: there there's no other proof to convict ends of the murder,
Speaker 7: so you've got all they have is a false a confession,
Speaker 7: And with any false confession case, what you would hope
Speaker 7: that the authorities do is once they managed to extract
Speaker 7: the confession and whatever technics they used to do that
Speaker 7: is that they will match it up to the physical
Speaker 7: events to see if it in fact matches and false
Speaker 7: confessions virtually never match up because there are too many details.
Speaker 7: There are too many uh, specifics in the murder, the
Speaker 7: method of murder, the place, the blood, the blood splatter,
Speaker 7: the clothing, the room, whatever. There's a whole fingerprints, footprints,
Speaker 7: and there's a long list of items that you know.
Speaker 7: The police go through any investigation, and with a false confession,
Speaker 7: it's usually fairly simple to uh to realize once you
Speaker 7: start matching the confession given by somebody who wasn't there,
Speaker 7: it's impossible for them to remember all the details that
Speaker 7: the real killer would actually know, where he left the bodies,
Speaker 7: how he killed them, Well you know who who did what,
Speaker 7: what was on the kitchen table, what was knocked over,
Speaker 7: what was spilt these are all, you know, it's fairly
Speaker 7: common common sense. And then in Yen's case, you know
Speaker 7: there were so many discrepancies between his confession and the
Speaker 7: actual physical crime scene. You just want to scream and say,
Speaker 7: why didn't somebody put these together, match them up? And somebody,
Speaker 7: whether the cops and the local boys, are you know,
Speaker 7: not always that reliable, especially in a rural county like Bedford, Virginia,
Speaker 7: where you know they don't see a lot of murders
Speaker 7: and the cops are not that well trained and sophisticated.
Speaker 7: You just you you want to say, why can't you
Speaker 7: guys look at what's obvious. What frustrates me is when
Speaker 7: you get to trial and you have what you think
Speaker 7: should be a competent defense lawyer who cannot walk through
Speaker 7: the confession step by step by step and show the
Speaker 7: discrepancies between the confession and the actual crime scene. I'm
Speaker 7: not sure if this was done or attempted in Yuen's case,
Speaker 7: but it certainly was not effective. And so that's that's
Speaker 7: what we always start in a false confession case is
Speaker 7: let's match it up with the proof, and it never
Speaker 7: matches up.
Speaker 6: It never does. And this was a crazy case because
Speaker 6: on top of all the other, you know, factors that
Speaker 6: led to his wrongful conviction. I think there was an
Speaker 6: inherent bias. I can't prove this because of the fact
Speaker 6: that it was Bedford County, which ironically is the county
Speaker 6: that lost more soldiers in World War Two to the
Speaker 6: Germans per capital than anywhere else in the United States.
Speaker 6: It's why the World War Two Memorial is there. And
Speaker 6: so I think that there's at least an argument that
Speaker 6: there could have been a the odds wood stacked against
Speaker 6: the ends from the beginning. I want to bring Sheriff
Speaker 6: Harding into the conversation. Sheriff Harding is a Ford You've
Speaker 6: been in law enforcement for several decades, four decades, right,
Speaker 6: and have been recognized by it's I mean, his resume
Speaker 6: is nuts when you look at the number of accreditations
Speaker 6: he has and the number of awards he's won, and
Speaker 6: he's one of the most accomplished people in law enforcement
Speaker 6: in the United States. And you've been You've dived into
Speaker 6: this case with I mean, with all guns blazing, so
Speaker 6: to speak. And is it possible, Sheriff You've examined this
Speaker 6: evidence eighteen ways till Sunday. Is it theoretically possible that
Speaker 6: Ian's committed this crime.
Speaker 9: Is it possible, I mean he could have been dropped
Speaker 9: down with us from a spaceship and done it. But
Speaker 9: is it logical he was there when these murders occurred.
Speaker 9: Extremely unlikely he was there. There's nothing that puts him
Speaker 9: there other than this false confession. And as John was
Speaker 9: saying earlier, the confession didn't match the crime scene when
Speaker 9: you look at it, I mean, there was some huge discrepancies.
Speaker 4: That weren't followed up.
Speaker 9: You had a young investigator, his first homicide case she'd
Speaker 9: ever investigated, and I'm reading a transcript going, you got
Speaker 9: to be kidneyed. You didn't do any follow up. Plus
Speaker 9: they didn't tape the confession. So when he gets to court,
Speaker 9: very skillfully, the prosecutor only asked questions that were consistent
Speaker 9: with the cram scene in the event and omitted the inconsistencies.
Speaker 9: And as John was pouring out, he had a very
Speaker 9: very ineffective defense attorney that didn't bring that to the
Speaker 9: attention of the jury.
Speaker 6: Among other things. And yet take us back in your
Speaker 6: you know, from your perspective, this this is a nightmare
Speaker 6: that no one can imagine living through you were. You
Speaker 6: had been in jail in England for quite some time
Speaker 6: before you even came to trial. You had nothing in
Speaker 6: your life experience that would prepare you for any of this,
Speaker 6: And now here you are in the in the grip
Speaker 6: of the justice system in Virginia as a sort of
Speaker 6: an arch villain, right, And what was this like for
Speaker 6: you to go through this at the time? Did you
Speaker 6: believe that you would be that you would actually win
Speaker 6: this case?
Speaker 1: Can I go in a couple of other factories and
Speaker 1: then answer your question details that corroborate the confession. At
Speaker 1: the time of the trial, the prosecutor pointed out to
Speaker 1: the jury twenty six times that the police found some
Speaker 1: O type blood at the crime scene, and that I
Speaker 1: was the only person involved in the case who had
Speaker 1: type old blood. The victims did not have Type O blood,
Speaker 1: and my girlfriend did not have type of blood. The
Speaker 1: only person involved in the case was type oh blood
Speaker 1: was meat, is what the prosecutor told the jury twenty
Speaker 1: six times. And it would take another two and a
Speaker 1: half decades to find out through DNA testing that indeed
Speaker 1: that was type of blood that was left by somebody else.
Speaker 1: So what is the fact that seemed to corroborate the
Speaker 1: confession at the time of the trial. It's now shown
Speaker 1: to actually prove the confession.
Speaker 6: And talk more about that, Sheriff Harding, what percentage of
Speaker 6: the population has this type of blood? I think it's
Speaker 6: about forty five percent, isn't it. It's pretty high, right,
Speaker 6: So I mean that really is I mean, it's a
Speaker 6: ridiculous thing to try to pin anything on, but yet
Speaker 6: the prosecutor mentioned it for twenty six times. It's also
Speaker 6: worth mentioning that Yenz's lead trial lawyer was disbarred a
Speaker 6: few years after your your false, your wrongful conviction, and
Speaker 6: he was disbarred because of mental illness. Drugs were a
Speaker 6: factor in all of this, and it was shown that
Speaker 6: he was suffering from this, this this profound problem during
Speaker 6: the time of your trial. So that's just another important
Speaker 6: thing to recognize.
Speaker 1: You feel like you wanted to know what it felt
Speaker 1: like at that stage in nineteen ninety, I had already
Speaker 1: been in prison for four years, finding expedition from England
Speaker 1: to the United States. For most of those four years,
Speaker 1: I was convinced that all my lawyers were convinced and
Speaker 1: everybody thought that I was definitely be sentenced to death.
Speaker 1: So I spent four years in prison in effect psychologically
Speaker 1: on death row. I was Everybody, including my own team,
Speaker 1: told me that I had no chance of avoiding the
Speaker 1: Electric two, and then at the last minute that was avoided.
Speaker 1: We won an appeal at the European Court of Human
Speaker 1: Rights and I was brought back to America. And that
Speaker 1: sort of thing has an effect on you psychologically.
Speaker 2: Living in prison for four years believing.
Speaker 1: That you're going to die pretty increasingly in the Electric two,
Speaker 1: and then I got that brought back to his virginion.
Speaker 1: Everybody hated me. Everybody was convinced I was guilty, and
Speaker 1: it was you know, he was really scary. I was.
Speaker 1: It was very frightening experience and I did not handle
Speaker 1: it well. I did not handle it well. But again
Speaker 1: you have to put them against the background of my
Speaker 1: having spent you know, three years under commin a breath
Speaker 1: of death and then coming into the zo atmosphere and
Speaker 1: having to see Elizabeth Haysen, a woman that that sacrificed
Speaker 1: myself for get up understand and Toldure herself and tell
Speaker 1: all these lies to put me away in prison. And
Speaker 1: when I say that, she toldured herself, that's not just
Speaker 1: the claim I make. Twenty six years later, she actually
Speaker 1: admitted that in a newspaper interview. She admitted that she
Speaker 1: told her herself at that trial. But at that time
Speaker 1: nobody knew that, and nobody caired. They just wanted a
Speaker 1: witness to point the Fingrette mean, and she did that job.
Speaker 1: And that and my own false confession and the type
Speaker 1: of blood.
Speaker 6: That's what did me in and the sock print, of course,
Speaker 6: was a ridiculous piece of evidence that no serious person
Speaker 6: should have ever even it shouldn't been allowed in court,
Speaker 6: and it shouldn't have been in the way that was
Speaker 6: done was very devious. But I want to go back
Speaker 6: to John and Chip here, because John, you were a
Speaker 6: criminal defense lawyer in your younger years, and Chip obviously
Speaker 6: you were very accomplished investigator. How would you guys have
Speaker 6: handled this? And do you think what could have been
Speaker 6: done to save YenS? And if you were, if you
Speaker 6: were representing him back then, what would you have said.
Speaker 7: It's difficult to, you know, project myself into that situation,
Speaker 7: especially now many years later. I only practiced law for
Speaker 7: ten years, and my dream when I was very young
Speaker 7: was to become an accomplished courtroom lawyer, a big time
Speaker 7: trial lawyer, and to do that, I volunteered for all
Speaker 7: of the indigen cases that I could possibly get because
Speaker 7: I needed to work, but also it got me in
Speaker 7: the courtroom. And within within two years of finishing law school,
Speaker 7: I had tried two murder cases by myself, no second chair.
Speaker 7: They weren't capital cases, but they were murder cases, and
Speaker 7: I had won both of them not guilty. And so
Speaker 7: I was in the courtroom a lot. I did win
Speaker 7: many cases because they weren't supposed to be one. Uh,
Speaker 7: most of my clients went to prison. But anyway, that
Speaker 7: was that was my world back then, was criminal defense law,
Speaker 7: and I wanted to parlay that into you know, a
Speaker 7: courtroom resume for for big cases. And so that was
Speaker 7: very much the way I lived back then. And when
Speaker 7: I read these cases, and I read a lot of
Speaker 7: them now being on the board of the Innocence Project
Speaker 7: and working with innocence cases, and you see some of
Speaker 7: the defense work by lawyers. And this was a private
Speaker 7: attorney that he and his family provided, a guy who
Speaker 7: was not even from the area. I think he's from
Speaker 7: Detroit to someplace. But to see the incompetence of defense
Speaker 7: lawyers and the lack of effort, the lack of integrity
Speaker 7: and challenging the prosecution, even challenging the judges. It's extremely
Speaker 7: frustrating and we see it all the time in wrongful
Speaker 7: conviction cases where you have all the reasons, all of
Speaker 7: the factors that lead to wrongful convictions, whether it's junk
Speaker 7: science or jail house niches or false confessions or whatever.
Speaker 7: You have a list, But the one that really irritates
Speaker 7: me a lot is the incompetent defense work, because there's
Speaker 7: no excuse for it's a question of simple hard work
Speaker 7: or saying no to a case you shouldn't take to
Speaker 7: begin with. So I can't tell you specifically what I
Speaker 7: would have done thirty years ago to save Yen's I
Speaker 7: can't do that. I'm not that smart. But hard work.
Speaker 7: There's rarely a substitute for hard work and fortitude in
Speaker 7: challenging the facts, and I didn't see it in this case.
Speaker 6: And Tariff harding. I want to talk to you because
Speaker 6: it's interesting to me that you know YenS has assembled
Speaker 6: this remarkable team and it's a great credit to him.
Speaker 6: And you're an interesting character in this because you're a
Speaker 6: conservative guy or a guy who's obviously law and order guy,
Speaker 6: and yet you have devoted yourself selflessly and spent time
Speaker 6: that you could have been doing anything else to hundreds
Speaker 6: of hours to this case. So can you talk about that?
Speaker 6: And then can you talk about the actual forensic evidence?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 9: Well, his attorney, Stephen Rosenfield, asked me to take a
Speaker 9: look at part of the pardon petition to see if
Speaker 9: I could find a way to strengthen it or to
Speaker 9: see if he's miss missed.
Speaker 4: Something in it.
Speaker 9: And I told Steve at the beginning, I felt like
Speaker 9: you was guilty based on everything I'd seen. I know
Speaker 9: Governor Kane had tried to send him back to Germany.
Speaker 9: I was opposed to that because I felt like he
Speaker 9: was guilty. He shouldn't been given any special consideration just
Speaker 9: because he was a German. But so Steve gave me
Speaker 9: the case, said won't take but a couple hours. Well,
Speaker 9: I ended up taking a bunch of stuff home at night.
Speaker 9: My wife thought I'd lost my mind because I spent
Speaker 9: basically the whole weekend the dining room table covered with
Speaker 9: material that Steve gave me, and I said, oh my god,
Speaker 9: this is nothing like what.
Speaker 4: Was represented and in conclusion.
Speaker 9: I ended up writing a nineteen page letter to the
Speaker 9: governor breaking down the closing arguments of the case. You know,
Speaker 9: that's the strength of the government's case. Last bitey to
Speaker 9: Apple and I.
Speaker 4: Broke that down.
Speaker 9: And then after that was published, I had another investigator
Speaker 9: worked with me for twenty five years, said, let me
Speaker 9: help form an FBI agent that I know that I
Speaker 9: worked another case with jumped in and one of the
Speaker 9: original Bedford investigators said he felt like Yen's had been
Speaker 9: railroaded and was innocent also, So the four of us
Speaker 9: had been working it collectively. We've given a couple of
Speaker 9: thousand hours, and you want to talk briefly about to forensics.
Speaker 9: The old blood was very powerful, as was mentioned, and
Speaker 9: I will say if I was on that jury, I
Speaker 9: would have convicted him based on it the way the
Speaker 9: evidence was represented so skillfully by the prosecutor. The old
Speaker 9: blood now we know absolutely no one can test the
Speaker 9: fact that it's not insurting. He's not been detected in
Speaker 9: the crime scene. But two other males, one with a
Speaker 9: b blood and one with old blood, have been detected
Speaker 9: in the crime scene, and we have not identified those
Speaker 9: people have not in my opinion, Bedford County should consider
Speaker 9: having an open homicide investigation. Then you look at the
Speaker 9: next piece of evidence that was pretty powerful.
Speaker 4: The Commonwealth.
Speaker 9: Originally got a certificate of analysis from the State Bureau
Speaker 9: Forensics saying.
Speaker 1: That the shoes you have one minute remaining.
Speaker 9: The shoe in sox size was consistent with a six
Speaker 9: and a half to seven and a half woman shoe
Speaker 9: a man five or six they originally had.
Speaker 4: And this just blew my mind.
Speaker 9: They originally had a small female as a prime suspect
Speaker 9: in this thing. And the prosecutor wrote a letter and
Speaker 9: we got a copy of it attached with a draft
Speaker 9: after David saying that he wanted this woman's blood, finger prints,
Speaker 9: and shoe impressions because her shoe was consistent with what
Speaker 9: was in the crime scene. Now you turn around and
Speaker 9: go to trial, you don't hear anything. The defense attorney
Speaker 9: brings nothing up. They bring in a non qualified individual
Speaker 9: to testify. He did a what we like to refer
Speaker 9: to as a magic trick, created an over delay of
Speaker 9: an impression of Yen's foot and said it basically fits
Speaker 9: like a.
Speaker 4: Glove, reminds you of oja.
Speaker 9: And he was even instructed he could not testify as
Speaker 9: an expert. But when you look at the closing arguments
Speaker 9: of the prosecutor, he says it can.
Speaker 4: Only fit one man.
Speaker 9: One man in the world could fit and he points
Speaker 9: at yensering and we know that's hooplaw, that's junk evidence.
Speaker 9: And the same man that put this on in front
Speaker 9: of the jury, Robert Haylett, did the same thing in
Speaker 9: another case where a man was given the death penalty,
Speaker 9: and thank god.
Speaker 4: It took a few years. He did not get executed.
Speaker 9: DNA proved he absolutely didn't do it. So here you
Speaker 9: have the same junk science being used again. There was
Speaker 9: a jura that gave an affidavit to the attorneys that
Speaker 9: said it was tied six' six in the jury. Room
Speaker 9: they wanted to take a look at the sock and
Speaker 9: shoe evidence again and he said that's what turned the.
Speaker 9: Tide and we know, now we know now that's. Ludicrous
Speaker 9: there are really two. Parts you've got a false confession
Speaker 9: and you also have a false. Alibi you've Got elizabeth
Speaker 9: whose claims she stayed at the hotel room and When
Speaker 9: yen's came, back she, Said YenS comes back that night
Speaker 9: after midnight in a sheet covered in blood from head
Speaker 9: to toe in the rental, vehicle And YenS asked her
Speaker 9: to clean it up with coca. Cola yet that vehicle
Speaker 9: was tested with, luminol And i've never had a case
Speaker 9: where blood had been, present Even bleach had gotten it all,
Speaker 9: out no indication of any blood at, all and was
Speaker 9: testimony from the folks at the rental agency that the
Speaker 9: car was in immaculate, condition no signs of any coca.
Speaker 4: Cola we have since.
Speaker 9: Learned and digging in the little limited, information we can
Speaker 9: see that there was actually blood found in the trap
Speaker 9: of the shower of the master, bedroom and that shower
Speaker 9: wall illuminated like fourth Of, July so it gives us
Speaker 9: the impression as investigators at least one of the participants
Speaker 9: in this homicide took a, Shower so why would he
Speaker 9: be covered in blood from head to? Toe it's, Impossible
Speaker 9: and there are three or four more things That elizabeth
Speaker 9: says that. Occurred we can disprove with her. Alibi as
Speaker 9: a matter of, fact in our, clothes we have not
Speaker 9: everything that has.
Speaker 4: Come out of that woman's.
Speaker 9: Mouth we can either prove is provable that she's, lying
Speaker 9: or it's highly suspect she's. Lying we've looked very hard
Speaker 9: at everything At yen's has, said and we have not
Speaker 9: caught him in a. Lie everything that he, said we
Speaker 9: have no reason not to believe.
Speaker 6: Him there's a book That yen's wrote With Bill seismore
Speaker 6: Called The Far Far Better thing in on page two,
Speaker 6: Twenty i'm going to read. This Russell, johnson a fully
Speaker 6: qualified footprint, expert was so outraged that he wrote a
Speaker 6: letter to the editor of The Roanoke newspaper declaring that
Speaker 6: the sockprint evidence was worthless junk. Science he, said there
Speaker 6: appeared to have been a slide in the heel before
Speaker 6: it came to, rest which of course would invalidate any
Speaker 6: attempt to size the thing. Up and then he made
Speaker 6: a very strong quote that said that the bloody sock
Speaker 6: print quote provides no evidence whatsoever that Mister surring was
Speaker 6: at the scene of the. Crime so the idea that
Speaker 6: this was the thing that the jurors cite as the
Speaker 6: thing that broke them from a six to six tie
Speaker 6: to it ultimately a unanimous guilty, verdict it should be
Speaker 6: offensive to anyone who believes in truth and, justice and
Speaker 6: certainly is to, us which is why we're here. Now
Speaker 6: john do you look like you have something on your?
Speaker 7: Mind, No i'm just fascinated by the level of junk
Speaker 7: science that permeates our quote room still. Today it's sock
Speaker 7: print analysis or bite mark, analysis or hair analysis or
Speaker 7: boot print. Analysis there's a long said list of these
Speaker 7: analyzes that have put so many people in, prison uttered
Speaker 7: by people who are not. Qualified you you, know you
Speaker 7: can go to a weekend seminar and study blood splatter,
Speaker 7: analysis get a certificate and call yourself an, expert and
Speaker 7: some prosecutor somewhere can call you in at a murder
Speaker 7: trial and, you you, know pretty much say whatever you
Speaker 7: want you to. Say at The Instance, project we are
Speaker 7: laboring to provide some national standard for forensic, sciences to
Speaker 7: get to clean up the courtroom and get all the
Speaker 7: crap out of, it so we have, good qualified experts
Speaker 7: who give valid scientific opinions about things that are, really really.
Speaker 7: Important you, know The Ron williamson, case the BOOK i
Speaker 7: wrote about the innocent. Man he was convicted in part
Speaker 7: because of hair analysis provided by The Oklahoma State Crime.
Speaker 7: Lab and this expert took some scalp and pubic hair
Speaker 7: from the crime scene and, said, yeah it's a bit Matches,
Speaker 7: ron and the jury ate that. Up ten years later
Speaker 7: that same hair When ron was tried in eighty, seven
Speaker 7: there's NO. Dna ten years later we HAD dna and
Speaker 7: all seventeen hares were excluded BY dna From Ron. Williamson
Speaker 7: and then later a few years, ago THE fbi admitted
Speaker 7: that when it comes to hair, analysis ninety five percent
Speaker 7: of their OWN fbi examiners got it. Wrong, okay that's THE,
Speaker 7: fbi that's the cream of the. Crop can you imagine
Speaker 7: what the numbers are for the state crime. Lab so
Speaker 7: the junk science is just, sickening And YenS is in
Speaker 7: prison today because of junk.
Speaker 6: Science it's there's so much because this, case we were
Speaker 6: talking about a case in which a couple was brutally,
Speaker 6: murdered stabbed multiple, times each of them very bloody crime,
Speaker 6: scene full rich with biological evidence from the actual. Killers in,
Speaker 6: theory you also had a logical explanation for this in
Speaker 6: That elizabeth had said multiple times that she had been
Speaker 6: sexually abused by her, mother that her father may have
Speaker 6: been involved in.
Speaker 1: This in some.
Speaker 6: Way there was a clear. Motive in that, sense you had,
Speaker 6: drugs which no one ever claimed that you were on.
Speaker 6: Drugs but we know that she was doing hard drugs
Speaker 6: and that she was running with a, very very nefarious
Speaker 6: crew back then and would have had access to the
Speaker 6: type of people who might commit a murder like. This
Speaker 6: people who knew you back, then including some people for law,
Speaker 6: enforcement said that it Was Even elizabeth said it was
Speaker 6: ludicrous to think that you could have committed a brutal
Speaker 6: crime like this because you're not a physically imposing. Guy
Speaker 6: it would have had to overpower to. Adults none of
Speaker 6: it ever made any, sense and there should have been
Speaker 6: it should have been relatively. Simple and, now of, course
Speaker 6: so many people have weighed in on, this Including Chuck,
Speaker 6: read one of the original investigators in the, case who
Speaker 6: has said in emphatic terms that it could not have been,
Speaker 6: you that he doesn't believe it was. You and yet
Speaker 6: we still find ourselves in this situation where we're still
Speaker 6: all trying to get you. Out and it's also worth
Speaker 6: talking about the fact that you have while in, prison
Speaker 6: distinguished yourself in ways that are almost, unprecedented writing nine
Speaker 6: books widely published As Educating, yourself becoming a Tai chi,
Speaker 6: master and meditation, teacher and of course having had an
Speaker 6: absolutely perfect record behind, BARS i often talk about the
Speaker 6: fact that you've, never to my, knowledge never even spilled your,
Speaker 6: Coffee so it's remarkable in what it says about, you
Speaker 6: and also about the idea that we are a nation
Speaker 6: supposedly of second chances of. Forgiveness so why anyone would
Speaker 6: want to keep you in even if they are unwilling or,
Speaker 6: unable unwilling to look at or able to understand the
Speaker 6: scientific evidence of your, Innocence the idea that we still
Speaker 6: keep you behind, bars it's just it's an affront to
Speaker 6: anyone who believes in and just. Decency, well it's been,
Speaker 6: very very difficult for, me especially over the last.
Speaker 1: Two and a half years since the pardon petition was
Speaker 1: submitted based on THE dna. Evidence it's been really difficult
Speaker 1: for me because for.
Speaker 2: Thirty years we thought there was NO.
Speaker 1: Dna evidence in this case that could prove my, innocence
Speaker 1: and then after thirty years in, prison was ACTUALLY i
Speaker 1: on the, phone worked my, Lawyer Steve, rosensfield flipping through
Speaker 1: some old forensic. REPORTS i found it in, evidence and you,
Speaker 1: know that's the pardon detriction is based. On years, later
Speaker 1: we cannot get anybody to act on, that's you, know.
Speaker 2: The thirty years of wishing for THE, dna and THEN.
Speaker 1: I finally get THE, dna and then nobody is going
Speaker 1: to listen more do anything about.
Speaker 6: It let me jump in for a, second because we
Speaker 6: have here an, interesting, uh such an amazing, group. Right
Speaker 6: we Have John, grisham who is you, know one of
Speaker 6: the most, famous if not the most Famous virginian legendary
Speaker 6: figure from the literary, world and who is certainly no
Speaker 6: stranger to politics or. Justice and we Have Sheriff, harding
Speaker 6: who knows his way around law enforcement as well or
Speaker 6: better than anybody in the. State and maybe you guys
Speaker 6: can try to give me some insight as to why
Speaker 6: this case is such a difficult one to resolve in
Speaker 6: the face of such overwhelming evidence of, innocence you, know
Speaker 6: and such a strong group behind the. ENDS i mean
Speaker 6: WHEN i say a strong. Group Angela. Merkel Angela merkel
Speaker 6: spoke To President obama on several occasions About YEN'S i,
Speaker 6: mean when have we ever heard of that the, president
Speaker 6: the former president Of, Germany President, schultz flew To virginia
Speaker 6: just for the purpose of meeting with the parole board
Speaker 6: to say send him. Home i'll take care of. HIM
Speaker 6: i want to house. HIM i want to get him a.
Speaker 6: JOB i want to you, know mentor. HIM i, mean
Speaker 6: you have the one of our most important allies in the,
Speaker 6: world who have made it a national priority at the
Speaker 6: highest levels to Extricate YenS from this impossible situation and
Speaker 6: bring him back to his own. Country and yet here we.
Speaker 6: Are can you guys touch on? This how do you explain?
Speaker 1: This?
Speaker 7: Well touch, ON i can't explain. It AND i think
Speaker 7: you Know jason from your work in the innocence. World
Speaker 7: as frustrating as this, is it's not. Unusual we've had
Speaker 7: cases before where we have to fight tooth and nail
Speaker 7: to OBTAIN dna testing for one of our, clients and
Speaker 7: we get THE dna, testing all the objections of the
Speaker 7: local prosecutors and local law, enforcement we get THE dna.
Speaker 7: Testing it clears our client slash inmate, whatever and so he's. Cleared.
Speaker 7: Okay then it takes a year procedurally to get him.
Speaker 7: Out oftentimes the prosecutor will, say, WELL i don't really
Speaker 7: believe THE dna. Results we're going to try you, again
Speaker 7: and so they bring him back to the local jail
Speaker 7: where they can keep him. Forever and a year goes.
Speaker 7: By two years. Ago you know this is not again
Speaker 7: as frustrating as it, is as maddening as it, Is
Speaker 7: i'm ashamed to say it's not that. UNUSUAL i think
Speaker 7: In yen's, case, though we are pressing ahead with the
Speaker 7: full court press on many, fronts we are cautiously optimistic
Speaker 7: that the right people are listening to. Us we are
Speaker 7: almost sanctimonious in our belief that we are right and
Speaker 7: everybody else is, wrong and it's time to make something good.
Speaker 7: Happen and that's why we are going to these. Efforts
Speaker 7: and we're not Gonna we're not gonna, stop slow down
Speaker 7: or be. Quiet we're just going to get more and
Speaker 7: more vocal and push harder and harder until we get.
Speaker 6: Justice sheriff harding on top of all the other evidence
Speaker 6: AND fbi agents Like Ed salzback who came forward and
Speaker 6: others to say that there had been evidence that had
Speaker 6: been hidden or not turned, over not disclosed in the
Speaker 6: way that the law mandates that it must. Be there's
Speaker 6: also in chapter eighteen of the book THAT i referenced,
Speaker 6: before there's the story of the car in the woods,
Speaker 6: right which would, again if you would think that this
Speaker 6: alone would be enough to Send yen's, home you. Know
Speaker 6: And i'm going to quote from the book, again you.
Speaker 6: Know in twenty, Eleven Tony, buchanan the retired owner of
Speaker 6: A lynchburg area auto transmission, shop said that three to
Speaker 6: five months after the murders in nineteen eighty, five a
Speaker 6: car was towed into his shop for. Repairs it's undercarriage
Speaker 6: matted with grass and, mud as if it had been
Speaker 6: sitting in the woods for a. While the tow truck
Speaker 6: driver Told buchanan the two Door chevrolet belonged to quote
Speaker 6: some college. Kids and here's the important. Part he, said
Speaker 6: in a sworn statement that when he looked, inside he
Speaker 6: saw that the floorboard on the driver's side was quote
Speaker 6: full of dry. Blood beside the console between the front,
Speaker 6: seats also covered in dried, blood was a single edged
Speaker 6: hunting type, knife the same type that was used to
Speaker 6: kill The. Haysums Now i'm sitting, Here i've got chills
Speaker 6: just reading. That and you, know he this same guy,
Speaker 6: testified or swore and offidated that neither none of those
Speaker 6: people Were. Ends ends was not one of the people
Speaker 6: that returned the. Car elizabeth was, one and somebody else
Speaker 6: was the. Other but yet here we go.
Speaker 9: Again, yeah he, claimed it's just a. Shame so much
Speaker 9: time has. Passed he claimed that he called and spo
Speaker 9: To Ricky, gardner who was the lead investigator now chief
Speaker 9: deputy In, bedford and told him about. This gardner denies,
Speaker 9: that says it didn't, happen so so much time has.
Speaker 4: Passed some of.
Speaker 9: The investigators did work that, lead and we kind of
Speaker 9: ran it out because time was not on our. Side
Speaker 9: we tried to find any, documentation material checks and all
Speaker 9: that kind of. Stuff the banks just don't have it
Speaker 9: from back in nineteen eighty. Five but if they'd been
Speaker 9: followed up on properly at the, time same, way if
Speaker 9: they had sent investigators to the hotel they'd stayed, at
Speaker 9: it had cleared it up right away That ens was,
Speaker 9: there she wouldn't it was his story of what he
Speaker 9: purchased was consistent with the hotel bill which she said
Speaker 9: she purchased when she stayed there was very inconsistent way
Speaker 9: over with the bill showed in't. It but you, know
Speaker 9: the bottom. Line most frustrated for me the law. Enforcement
Speaker 9: i'm in law, enforcement AND i Hope i'm respecting law.
Speaker 9: Enforcement i'm a sitting sheriff And yet the sitting sheriff
Speaker 9: In Bedford county refuses to meet with me and even
Speaker 9: discuss the. Case the lead investigator won't meet with the
Speaker 9: four of us who've given thousands of hours pro gone
Speaker 9: or we don't have anything in. It we're just looking for.
Speaker 9: Justice we asked one hour and he says he doesn't have. Time,
Speaker 9: however we do have him caught on videotape saying a
Speaker 9: few years, ago this, happened thirty years, ago he was
Speaker 9: convicted in. Court why do we need to go any further?
Speaker 9: Then AND i think that's the, attitude which is it's
Speaker 9: really shut.
Speaker 4: Down from an investigative.
Speaker 9: Standpoint we've not had access to the investigative files or
Speaker 9: any further testing Because i'm out of my jurisdiction and
Speaker 9: getting absolutely no cooperation From. Bedford we have proved absolutely
Speaker 9: that they lied and concealed the fact that there was
Speaker 9: AN fbi profile. Done my buddy who's RETIRED fbi. Agent
Speaker 9: we had asked THE fbi several times and they couldn't
Speaker 9: find any. Information, This Ricky gardner, said, absolutely one hundred
Speaker 9: PERCENT pi if it was not. Done we now have
Speaker 9: actual documents from nineteen eighty five from THE fbi that
Speaker 9: indicated profile was done In, Quantico. Virginia so you, know
Speaker 9: my buddy form MY fpi agen, said if they were
Speaker 9: allowed about that and it won't, cooperate what else is?
Speaker 9: There it certainly raises a red flag with us as.
Speaker 9: Investigators do we have any form of corruption or wrong or.
Speaker 6: Doing, yeah they won't even allow you to test THE
Speaker 6: dna of two guys that we know are in for
Speaker 6: committing similar crimes in another county In, virginia who we.
Speaker 6: Don't we have no idea whether they committed this crime or,
Speaker 6: not but there's there's some reason to believe that They
Speaker 6: there were these two.
Speaker 4: Guys in knife demand multiple times.
Speaker 9: To death within a few, days and that far from
Speaker 9: The haysom, residents whether those victims were, located and these two,
Speaker 9: folks one of them at least, was according to his
Speaker 9: background that we've, read was involved in heavy drugs in
Speaker 9: The lynchburg, area as we Believe elizabeth. Was she was
Speaker 9: a omitted heroin, user and THE dna should be in
Speaker 9: the data. Bank they're both doing life for that. Murder
Speaker 9: and we simply, asked would you take those, profiles compare
Speaker 9: them to the crime, scene and the state, says can't do.
Speaker 9: It it's got the jurisdiction where they offense. Occurred they have
Speaker 9: to request.
Speaker 4: It and to our, knowledge they're not doing, anything.
Speaker 6: Which is just, remarkable right when you think about the
Speaker 6: idea that they just refuse to test something that can
Speaker 6: only prove like one or, another either these guys did
Speaker 6: it or they. Didn't why wouldn't we want to?
Speaker 9: Know we want to know from an investigator, standpoint do
Speaker 9: we want to keep following those two guys as a
Speaker 9: lead or can they be excluded based on THE dna
Speaker 9: very simply would take about three or four minutes to
Speaker 9: compare those bar.
Speaker 4: Codes it's so.
Speaker 9: Frustrating i'm used to working in my own. Jurisdiction IF
Speaker 9: i want something to, TESTED i ask a lab to do,
Speaker 9: it they do. It IF i want to search, ONE
Speaker 9: i get. It IF i have witnesses and we have
Speaker 9: two or three people that need to be interviewed in this,
Speaker 9: case they refuse to cooperate. WHATSOEVER i don't have any
Speaker 9: grandeur authority to service a pena on.
Speaker 4: Them SO i really feel for The innist's.
Speaker 9: PROJECT i see what they go through now now That
Speaker 9: i'm on the other side of the, FENCE i feel
Speaker 9: like you operating with both hands tad behind your. Back
Speaker 9: everything's working against. You so you got to put a
Speaker 9: lot more work and effort into it than you really
Speaker 9: should and try to get to the, truth which we
Speaker 9: all should. Want but apparently we don't all always want
Speaker 9: the truth and.
Speaker 4: Justice you.
Speaker 6: Know it's also SOMETHING i want to touch on BEFORE
Speaker 6: i turn over To john for a, second which is
Speaker 6: that back in two thousand and eight or, nine with
Speaker 6: the support Of Bishop sullivan and other luminaries both religious
Speaker 6: and political, Figures Governor kine granted a conditional pard AND
Speaker 6: i guess we would say would have allowed you to
Speaker 6: go back To. Germany and this is such an unbelievable
Speaker 6: thing to even think. About WHEN i hear myself tell
Speaker 6: the story to, PEOPLE i don't even believe it, myself
Speaker 6: BUT i know it's. True and then as literally as
Speaker 6: you were packing your, bags the, governor the new governor came,
Speaker 6: In governor, McDonell and he revoked for the first time
Speaker 6: and then two hundred and thirty four year history Of.
Speaker 6: Virginia he revoked the previous governor's order and decided that
Speaker 6: you would be kept in prison for the rest of your.
Speaker 6: Life which is just an unbelievable thing to, process and it.
Speaker 6: Is it is remarkable going back and thinking about the
Speaker 6: number of, people on the quality of people that have
Speaker 6: come to your, defense and even now the support of
Speaker 6: amazing people from journalism The Washington post who are even
Speaker 6: here today covering the. Story so many of the literally
Speaker 6: the finest organizations and the leaders of different from all
Speaker 6: all parts of the country have have taken up this.
Speaker 6: Cause AND i wanted to ask, You, john of all
Speaker 6: the millions of things you could be doing with your
Speaker 6: time right. Now and we know that with about you,
Speaker 6: know the estimates are five percent of people in prison In,
Speaker 6: america which is about one hundred thousand, people are. Innocent
Speaker 6: there's so many innocent. People and again there's so many
Speaker 6: other things that You sheriff, me the millions of the
Speaker 6: pro bono lawyers who have helped you in throughout the
Speaker 6: years and still help them. Now Steve, Rosen Phelps, northulp and.
Speaker 6: Others why are you so obsessed with this? CASE i
Speaker 6: wouldn't Say i'm.
Speaker 7: Obsessed i'm very concerned about. It Since The Innocent man
Speaker 7: was published in two thousand and six AND i joined
Speaker 7: the board of The innocence project In New. York i've
Speaker 7: done a lot of this type of work as.
Speaker 9: You, Have.
Speaker 7: JASON i haven't done as much as you, have but,
Speaker 7: we as individual, members we tend to get involved in
Speaker 7: cases that we hear. About i'm still involved with the
Speaker 7: two guys In. Oklahoma there's a case In mississippi That
Speaker 7: i'm involved. With i've known about the End searing case
Speaker 7: here for twenty Five we've lived here twenty five years In,
Speaker 7: charlottsville And i've read about the case a long. Time
Speaker 7: BECAUSE i didn't pay much attention to. IT i saw that
Speaker 7: it was a. CONFESSION i, figured, well, okay they got
Speaker 7: the right. Guy was never too involved in the. Case
Speaker 7: and then a couple of years, ago.
Speaker 4: Talked To Steve.
Speaker 7: Rooseveld we you, know we had we had a, coffee
Speaker 7: talked about the, case and he asked me to take
Speaker 7: a look at. It, well by then the case had
Speaker 7: been looked, at, uh so many different ways by so
Speaker 7: many different. People And Chip harding, also uh you, know
Speaker 7: spoke about the case and said he by then he
Speaker 7: had five hundred hours in the. Case he's probably got
Speaker 7: five thousand.
Speaker 1: Now BUT.
Speaker 7: I just started reading about the. Case he read read the,
Speaker 7: book saw the movie and realized this took, place you,
Speaker 7: know very close to WHERE i. LIVE i was, convinced
Speaker 7: became convinced it was a huge miscarriage of, justice AND
Speaker 7: uh became fascinated with. It and you, KNOW i thought
Speaker 7: about writing the. STORY i thought about writing the. Book.
Speaker 7: Uh these instance cases always inspire me to write the
Speaker 7: story because the stories are so almost all of them
Speaker 7: are so, fascinating, compelling. Heartbreaking. Uh but they're just, good, rich,
Speaker 7: deep complicated, stories AND i love that type of a.
Speaker 6: Story so.
Speaker 7: You, KNOW i talk to You. Jason we we've known
Speaker 7: each other for a long. Time we we sort of
Speaker 7: got involved in the case after you and and here we.
Speaker 7: Are and the more work THAT i, Do i'm still
Speaker 7: catching up to you. Guys but the more we work,
Speaker 7: together the more were the more determined we are to
Speaker 7: to get a just decision in this. Case and we
Speaker 7: have you, know we have several avenues. Left it's not
Speaker 7: it's not helpless by any. Means we don't view it as.
Speaker 7: Hopeless we we think we can smell.
Speaker 4: Victory john was.
Speaker 1: Just speaking about the multiple avenues. Available most innocence cases
Speaker 1: have only one real, option and that's hardened and that's
Speaker 1: usually a full, part and that makes it very difficult
Speaker 1: because somebody has to admit that they made a terrible.
Speaker 1: Mistake my case is a little bit unusual and that
Speaker 1: the state actually has. Stilling they have the option of
Speaker 1: an absolute, pardon which would be to player my innocence
Speaker 1: and actually admit what really, happened which was that this
Speaker 1: is a wrongful. Conviction but they have other.
Speaker 10: Options they have a conditional, pardon.
Speaker 1: Which would be just to say that there's a lot of,
Speaker 1: doubts but not to Say i'm actually, innocent just to
Speaker 1: say there's a lot of questions and a lot of,
Speaker 1: doubts you can't be. Sure and then there's a third,
Speaker 1: option and that would be. Parrole so one of mystifying
Speaker 1: things to me about this is my case in comparison
Speaker 1: to other, cases is that they have a whole smorgas
Speaker 1: board of options to choose from full pardon or absolute,
Speaker 1: pardon conditional, pardon and then prow and they're choosing not.
Speaker 10: To exercise any of these.
Speaker 1: Options AND i find that.
Speaker 6: Pruggling Suf F, Haardine i'm gonna put the same question to.
Speaker 6: YOU i, MEAN i have my own, REASONS i mean
Speaker 6: different cases affect all of us. Differently you're Both virginia of.
Speaker 6: Guys i'm A New york, guy but you, KNOW i
Speaker 6: recognize injustice WHEN i see, it AND i also recognize
Speaker 6: in this case the added tragedy of human potential in
Speaker 6: That end's and he AND i have talked about this at,
Speaker 6: length the idea that Y ends could BE i, mean
Speaker 6: he has contributed a lot to society even from the
Speaker 6: inside of these maximum security prisons he's been stuck in
Speaker 6: for all these. Years but the idea that he could be,
Speaker 6: out you, know doing great things with his intellect and
Speaker 6: with his spirit and his. Courage but what is it
Speaker 6: about this case in particular that makes you want a
Speaker 6: devote your free time when you, know again you could
Speaker 6: be out fishing or whatever it, is playing.
Speaker 9: Golf, well this just came to me And i'm captivated by.
Speaker 9: It like you, say you really have to dig into.
Speaker 4: It what to really grab hold of.
Speaker 9: YOU i first got it really interested in this type of,
Speaker 9: work innocence, work by Reading John grisham's book back when
Speaker 9: it first came, Out The Innocent. Man and THEN i
Speaker 9: became friends With Brandon garrett used to be a professor
Speaker 9: here At UVa's At Duke. University now he has a
Speaker 9: book Out Wrong Full, Convictions how criminal prosecutions Went, wrong
Speaker 9: and he's got a lot of research. Data i'm not,
Speaker 9: bragging BUT i worked as an investigator and investigative supervisor
Speaker 9: for over thirty years AND i never lost a case
Speaker 9: and always THOUGHT i did it.
Speaker 4: Right but after Reading john's book With Holy.
Speaker 9: TALEDA i don't THINK i ever wrongly convicted, someone but
Speaker 9: the opportunity surely was. There you tend to get tunnel,
Speaker 9: vision just like these folks did. Here you tend to
Speaker 9: go in those gray areas that you think because you
Speaker 9: think you've got the right, guy you're doing the right
Speaker 9: thing to protect your, community and you're not necessarily doing.
Speaker 9: That so in looking at this, Case i'm seeing all
Speaker 9: of those. Things i'm seeing tunnel. Vision i'm seeing junk.
Speaker 9: Science i'm seeing so much wouldn't be interesting IF i
Speaker 9: had to sit in jail like he is to look at.
Speaker 9: It But i'm finding it a fascinating case to dig.
Speaker 9: INTO i read some of the. Letters it just blew me.
Speaker 9: Away there was one By elizabeth that she wrote ninety
Speaker 9: days before the murder that, Said i'd always believe THAT
Speaker 9: i made men fall in love with me SO i
Speaker 9: could take out all the HATRED i felt for them
Speaker 9: by humiliating. THEM i despised their cheap lust and easy,
Speaker 9: passions and in the END i made them hate themselves
Speaker 9: for loving me and the torture, inflicted so she might
Speaker 9: be enjoying him sitting. There the other part of it
Speaker 9: is looking At Jim, updyke who give him. CREDIT i
Speaker 9: Thought edi did a good masterful job of winning the.
Speaker 9: CASE i don't know if it was about, justice he
Speaker 9: wrote in an interview That i've got a copy. Of
Speaker 9: on one, hand she freely admitted her parents wouldn't be
Speaker 9: dead if not for. HER i agree with that she
Speaker 9: onaned them. Dead on the other, hand she was a
Speaker 9: great assistance to, Me updyke, said hastim helped him gather
Speaker 9: the evidence against, sowing and even outlined the whole case for.
Speaker 9: Him got to be kidding, Me but you see this
Speaker 9: stuff all over the, country you know right, Now i've
Speaker 9: got a lot of invested in, this as do the other,
Speaker 9: investigators and and we'll do anything we can.
Speaker 4: Prove his innocence if he's we do feel like he is, innocent.
Speaker 6: And we will prevail because we're not going As john,
Speaker 6: said we're not going to. Stop we're going to keep
Speaker 6: fighting until we get him out and then we'll move
Speaker 6: on to the next. One but until that's, done we're
Speaker 6: Not we're just going to get noisier and we're going
Speaker 6: to get more efficient and uh we're going to, uh you,
Speaker 6: know ultimately. PREVAIL i think, that you, know we do
Speaker 6: have a state here WHERE i think there's a number
Speaker 6: of very good people in the. SYSTEM i think that
Speaker 6: people on the parle board are very well meaning, people
Speaker 6: AND i think the governor is a is a good
Speaker 6: governor who cares about this, stuff cares about. JUSTICE i
Speaker 6: don't think that's true in all states by any, means
Speaker 6: BUT i think that that is true, here and we're
Speaker 6: gonna we're gonna find out just how true it is
Speaker 6: by shining a light on all these different aspects of the.
Speaker 6: Case Yen's before we, CLOSE i did want to ask
Speaker 6: you about your your current, team what they've meant to,
Speaker 6: you as well As Gail Starling marshall and you, know
Speaker 6: if you can just touch on, THAT i had a
Speaker 6: really really.
Speaker 10: Bad Child lodger who was eventually, desparred like you, mentioned
Speaker 10: But i've.
Speaker 1: Also had really really fantastic.
Speaker 2: Loveness fighting, fully including Former Deputy.
Speaker 10: Attorney General Gale Starling marshall Also glad and it's in the,
Speaker 10: movie and of Course.
Speaker 2: Steve, rosenstield who has suffered with me not in so many,
Speaker 2: years And Steve. Multin you, know there's you, know lawyers
Speaker 2: cut a lot of, blame.
Speaker 5: But there's some really wonderful loveness as, well and and
Speaker 5: that has been.
Speaker 2: Really really helpful to me as well to know, that you,
Speaker 2: know not everybody in the legal possession is.
Speaker 5: Awful there are some really really fantastic human beings working
Speaker 5: of ers and and.
Speaker 2: Then you know the stuff you guys have had wonderful.
Speaker 1: People like you and and telling posession and nine seine to.
Speaker 10: Just to read it to the editor public yesterday in
Speaker 10: The Richmond.
Speaker 1: Times of that.
Speaker 2: You, know the people who really have more enplightan and
Speaker 2: better things to do with their life than to worry about, me.
Speaker 1: You, know stepping into my life and trying to help.
Speaker 2: Me that's that's really really encouraging.
Speaker 5: And and and has given me hope and.
Speaker 3: And it gives me the hope to.
Speaker 2: Try to hold on a little while, longer.
Speaker 1: You, know to see whether this can be.
Speaker 2: Resolved in some way Super flan BEFORE i die of all, WAIT.
Speaker 5: I can tell you exactly eleven, okay every two, years
Speaker 5: eight months and eleven.
Speaker 1: Days and it hasn't been, easy but that's What he's wonderful.
Speaker 6: People you do have an extraordin an extraordinary, team including
Speaker 6: the leaders of Of, germany so past and. PRESENT i
Speaker 6: want to tell the audience there's there's the Movie killing
Speaker 6: For love and the book is a far far better
Speaker 6: thing by ensuring And Bill sizemore a far far better.
Speaker 6: Thing and for audience members who want to get, involved
Speaker 6: you can send an email To ALINA. A. L. E
Speaker 6: N a Dot, yarmofsky which is WHY A R M
Speaker 6: o S K why At governor Dot virginia dot. Gov
Speaker 6: or you can go to the website which Is governor
Speaker 6: Dot virginia dot. Gov That's governor Dot virginia dot. Gov
Speaker 6: and then this is the part of the show that
Speaker 6: we've become known. For IT'S i think everyone's favorite part
Speaker 6: of the. Show it's. Mine and this is a part
Speaker 6: of the show WHERE i get to thank our. Guests
Speaker 6: in this case of Course John, Grisham, john thanks for being.
Speaker 6: Here And Sheriff Harding Sheriff Chip harving Our Albumla. Accounting
Speaker 6: of course You yen's thanks for participating in this and
Speaker 6: sharing your thoughts and experience and educating our. AUDIENCE i
Speaker 6: want to turn it over to each of you just
Speaker 6: for brief closing, thoughts and of course we'll end with
Speaker 6: You yen, Anyway john final.
Speaker 7: Thoughts as far As, Yeah i've said it, before these
Speaker 7: rawful conviction stories are always compelling and tempting from my
Speaker 7: point of view to write about, them to tell the fantastic,
Speaker 7: stories as sad as they, are but to also hopefully raise.
Speaker 7: Awareness HAD i not Written The Innocent man published it
Speaker 7: what thirteen years, ago there would not be The netflix series,
Speaker 7: now which is getting far more attention in the, book
Speaker 7: which is all. Good but as far as these stories,
Speaker 7: go you, Know i've gotten my top five innocent stories
Speaker 7: That i've went across in the past twelve, years And
Speaker 7: yens's case has got to be in the top. Three
Speaker 7: it's just such a compelling story of wrongful conviction in
Speaker 7: all the different ways the things that go wrong with our,
Speaker 7: system and also the relationship with his accuser is. FANTASTIC
Speaker 7: i hope there's a happy. Ending we believe it's going
Speaker 7: to be a happy ending because we're all working hard
Speaker 7: with a game plan to Get yen's out and then
Speaker 7: getting back To, germany And yenz AND i have this
Speaker 7: kind of a running gag that one day soon we're
Speaker 7: going to be drinking a beer together In munich At.
Speaker 6: Octoberfest i'm coming, Too and by the, way HE i
Speaker 6: have the same. Deal so you, KNOW i don't want
Speaker 6: to make you not feel, special but we've got the
Speaker 6: Same he's got you paying for, It.
Speaker 4: John we're all.
Speaker 7: Invited we're all invited To.
Speaker 6: Octoberfest that's, Right Sheriff harding final.
Speaker 9: Thoughts UNTIL i got involved in this kind of, WORK
Speaker 9: i always thought that you were found guilty beyond a reasonable.
Speaker 9: Doubt but it looks like In, america once you're found,
Speaker 9: guilty to be found innocent or, pardon it almost has
Speaker 9: to be your innocent beyond a shadow of a.
Speaker 4: Doubt the standard is way too.
Speaker 9: High it's shameful for me to have fifty years in
Speaker 9: the justice system and to see the, pushback not just
Speaker 9: in this, case but Other i've read three or four
Speaker 9: hundred cases from prosecutors in law enforcement that don't man
Speaker 9: up and step up and admit they make mistakes and
Speaker 9: seek the. Truth and no one has ever held accountable
Speaker 9: in the first two hundred and fifty cases That Brandon garrett,
Speaker 9: examined in many cases prosecutors with hell exculpatory. Evidence so
Speaker 9: did law enforcement in that one single case that one
Speaker 9: officer ever go to trial or spend one day in.
Speaker 4: Jail so we can't police.
Speaker 9: Ourselves how do we anticipate the public's going to have
Speaker 9: the confidence in us to police?
Speaker 6: Them and, now saving the best for, last yends your final.
Speaker 4: Thoughts thank.
Speaker 2: YOU i think it's important for your audience.
Speaker 1: To realize that.
Speaker 2: They're estimated one hundred thousand rightly convicted prisoners.
Speaker 1: In The United. States that's a small, city And i'm
Speaker 1: far from the only. One i'm, not, really really so
Speaker 1: grateful to the three of, You John, GRISHAM Chi, partying
Speaker 1: And Jason.
Speaker 2: Flom for drawing attention to my.
Speaker 1: Case but let's not forget the other nine victims of
Speaker 1: mischaracters of. Justice one of the things THAT i really
Speaker 1: would hope for is that If i'm ever, RELEASED i
Speaker 1: can maybe help draw attention to all those other people
Speaker 1: and work towards systemic changes so that things like this
Speaker 1: don't happen to other people in the.
Speaker 2: Future it's give, us you, know something to think.
Speaker 1: About there's one hundred thousand innocent people in prison in
Speaker 1: The United. States somebody should be really bothered by. That
Speaker 1: AND i hope out your audience thinks about them as.
Speaker 1: Well AND i want to thank.
Speaker 6: For today talk About thank, You John, Grisham Sheriff Chip
Speaker 6: harmon of Baub Blamare county And Yen serring ends thank.
Speaker 6: You don't forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever
Speaker 6: you get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a
Speaker 6: proud donor to The Ennescence, project AND i really hope
Speaker 6: you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and
Speaker 6: helping to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot
Speaker 6: org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd
Speaker 6: like to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin.
Speaker 6: Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME
Speaker 6: oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us
Speaker 6: On instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 6: Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flamm is a production Of
Speaker 6: lava For Good podcasts association with Signal company number one