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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you.

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Speaker 3: Fathlet eleven, and it hasn't been easy.

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Speaker 4: One hundred years, I said, man, I'm a kid.

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Speaker 3: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know that.

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Speaker 4: Was a that was real painful, man, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, because my life was discarded as if you know,

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Speaker 5: like I was a piece of trash or something, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, one hundred years and I had dreams and I

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Speaker 4: wanted to do things.

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Speaker 6: I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I was a very

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Speaker 6: good young man.

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Speaker 7: That is what happened in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 7: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 7: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 7: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 7: march in the wrong direction, and that happens in some

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Speaker 7: any of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 8: They open the cell door and I walk down stiff,

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Speaker 8: and I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt

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Speaker 8: very strange to be, like I said, to be walking

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Speaker 8: without no chackles on my feet. I thought it was

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Speaker 8: a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 6: This is wrongful conviction. So we all we all hooked up.

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Speaker 4: Here are we here?

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Speaker 9: We're here Test one two three. Sheriff Chip Harding, Albamarle County, Virginia.

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Speaker 4: MS.

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Speaker 1: Paul is from a correction facility and it's subject to

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Speaker 1: monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 6: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. It's me.

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Speaker 6: I'm your host, and today we have an episode that

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Speaker 6: is h going to rock your world. We have three

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Speaker 6: guests today. I'm gonna save the best for last, but

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Speaker 6: we have John Grisham in the studio with us. John welcome,

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Speaker 6: delighted to be here, and Sheriff Chip Harding of Albemarle County. Yes, sir,

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Speaker 6: good to be here Virginia. And on the phone is

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Speaker 6: Yen Surring, one of the most remarkable people I know

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Speaker 6: and one of the most extraordinary cases of injustice that

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Speaker 6: we've ever covered on this show. So Yen's I always say,

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Speaker 6: I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the student

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Speaker 1: and I'm thanks to Chip in John as well.

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Speaker 6: So this is a case that takes us back to

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Speaker 6: the eighties, believe it or not, a case that has

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Speaker 6: all the makings of a John Grisham novel, actually, because

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Speaker 6: this goes back to Yen's when you were first an

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Speaker 6: exchange student from Germany, a brilliant young scholar. From everything

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Speaker 6: I'm told, this is a Jefferson scholar, a freshman at

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Speaker 6: the Universe of Virginia. And yeah, and do you want

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Speaker 6: to do you want to take us back there and

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Speaker 6: tell us how this started?

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Speaker 1: Sure, this was in nineteen eighty four in the fall.

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Speaker 1: I arrived at the University of Virginia as a freshman,

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Speaker 1: be called christ new students there, and I met a

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Speaker 1: young woman there who was two and a half years

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Speaker 1: older than I was Elizabeth Hasen, and we were both

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Speaker 1: in the same dormitory. She had entered the university late

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Speaker 1: because she had had an adventurous youth. She had gone

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Speaker 1: to an English boarding school and run away with her

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Speaker 1: girlfriend to Europe, things like that, And so she came

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Speaker 1: to UVA quite a bit older than the rest of

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Speaker 1: us in that dormitory. And I was not an American citizen.

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Speaker 1: My father was a German diplomat. That's why I was

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Speaker 1: living in a United States. And her family came from

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Speaker 1: South Africa and from Canada. So we were drawn to

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Speaker 1: each other.

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Speaker 3: As being foreigners, not Americans, and the parts of.

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Speaker 1: That false semester. In nineteen eighty four, we fell in love,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it was quite a surprise to everybody

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Speaker 1: else in the dormitory because she was very experienced but

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Speaker 1: very mature. And I was, I guess, a nerd, an

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Speaker 1: uber nerd and virgin to boot. So she was my

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Speaker 1: very first girlfriend.

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Speaker 6: You were a German uber version nerd. It's quite a combination, Yen.

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Speaker 6: And she was a beautiful young woman, a striking woman

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Speaker 6: who you know, anyone in your situation would have probably

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Speaker 6: fallen head over heels for considering the circumstances. But the

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Speaker 6: you know, it was of course a faithful star across

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Speaker 6: love affair.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and yeah, it was a very short lived love

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Speaker 1: affair as well. Three months after we started dating, or

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Speaker 1: maybe four months after we started dating, we went to Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Spend a weekend together, and in the course

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Speaker 1: of that weekend, she told me that she was still

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Speaker 1: using drugs, which she had previously told me she had

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Speaker 1: to stop doing, and that she needed to use our

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Speaker 1: rental car to run some drugs from Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: To her dealer, who was also the university student back

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Speaker 1: in Charlottesville, and I wanted to come along, but she

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Speaker 1: wouldn't let me because she said that I was such

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Speaker 1: a nerd. Nobody would no drug dealer would want to

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Speaker 1: do business around me. So she drove off in the

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Speaker 1: car by herself and came back eight hours later until

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Speaker 1: she had killed her parents. And she said that you know,

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Speaker 1: the drugs had made her do it, and they had

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Speaker 1: deserved it anyway, and if I didn't help her, she

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Speaker 1: would be executed. She would be back then they used

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Speaker 1: the lecture too, She said that they would fry her.

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Speaker 1: She said that I should be her alibi and tell

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Speaker 1: the police she was with me in Washington. And I

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Speaker 1: told her that that would never ever work, because the

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Speaker 1: police never believed boyfriends or husbands or wives people like that.

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Speaker 1: So I came up with this brilliant idea based on

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Speaker 1: Charles Dickens, a Tale of two Cities, of all things.

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Speaker 1: But I would take the blame for her.

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Speaker 3: I would take the rap for her and save her life.

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Speaker 1: Was based on a character in the Charles Dickens's novel

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Speaker 1: Sydney Carton, who did that in this novel. The difference

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Speaker 1: was that in the novel that particular character actually did

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Speaker 1: get fixed. Whereas my father was a German diplomat, I

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Speaker 1: thought I had diplomatic community. I thought that I could

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Speaker 1: take the blame for her crime, and all that would

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Speaker 1: happen with me was about be sent back to Germany

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Speaker 1: and put in prison there, and a trevenile prison for

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Speaker 1: about ten years. And I thought that given ten years

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Speaker 1: of my life, was worth saving her life from the

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Speaker 1: electric too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's sort of a twisted nobility. It's you know,

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Speaker 6: it's sort of very hard to imagine. But at the

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Speaker 6: same time, people do crazy things for love all the time.

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Speaker 6: And you know, as you and I have spoken on

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Speaker 6: the phone at lengthy ends about this and the fact

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Speaker 6: his wars have been started over love affairs, so you know,

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Speaker 6: you're not the only person by far that's ever done

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Speaker 6: something so crazy, but this is certainly an extreme example.

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Speaker 6: And then yeah, go ahead, Jensory, not just.

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Speaker 1: Say it's a bit like at the end of the

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Speaker 1: movie Titanic, right when Leonardo DiCaprio lifts Kate Winslet onto

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Speaker 1: that door to save her life and then he sort

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Speaker 1: of sinks away and gives his life for her, you know,

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Speaker 1: except I didn't lift Kate winslet up on that door.

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Speaker 1: I looked at Sharon Stone from basic instinct upon that door,

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Speaker 1: and then, you know, sacrifice myself for her.

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Speaker 6: Yes, we were talking about this earlier and I said

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Speaker 6: that it's such a strange fate that you happen to

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Speaker 6: have only been with one woman and she turned out

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Speaker 6: to be the devil. It's really something that is unimaginable.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's calling her the devil is a little oversimplified.

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Speaker 1: She was later diagnosed with a very severe personality disorder,

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Speaker 1: so you know, she actually had serious mental health issues.

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Speaker 1: And and of course she claimed that her mother had

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Speaker 1: sexually abused her with the knowledge and cooperation of her father,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there's there's some indications that that may

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Speaker 1: have actually been true. Of course, we'll never know for

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Speaker 1: sure now, but you know, she she was a troubled

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Speaker 1: young woman.

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Speaker 6: This I want to fast forward a little bit because

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Speaker 6: I want to get into the current circumstance and how

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Speaker 6: we can hopefully make a difference and get you home

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Speaker 6: where you belong. But as things developed, you initially were

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Speaker 6: not suspects and but then at some point you decided

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Speaker 6: to to make a getaway. And this is back in

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Speaker 6: the days when for people don't remember in the eighties,

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Speaker 6: you can sort of travel the world under a different name.

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Speaker 6: And it wasn't all these different It wasn't you know,

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Speaker 6: so tightly monitored or regulated. And so you guys went

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Speaker 6: around the world and ultimately ended up in England, which

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Speaker 6: is also sort of a crazy adventure to think about

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Speaker 6: these two lovers running away from the authorities, traveling the

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Speaker 6: world with a suitcase, and you know, it's you know,

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Speaker 6: sort of a it sounds sounds kind of romantic and

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Speaker 6: adventurous and you know, cinematic at the same time. And

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Speaker 6: you ended up in England, and that's when things began

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Speaker 6: began to go wrong, right because you were ultimately arrested

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Speaker 6: for passing bad checks, as I understand it. And then

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Speaker 6: and then we get to the point where the false

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Speaker 6: confessions come in, or your false confession.

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Speaker 1: So the police both Elizabeth and me back from the

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Speaker 1: jail to the police station and they actually wrote into

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Speaker 1: the police station lab book that I was to be

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Speaker 1: held in Kaninocado. In other words, I was to be

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Speaker 1: isolated from the outside world and not given access to

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Speaker 1: my lawyer. And that's exactly what they did. For four days.

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Speaker 1: They interrogated me for four days, many many hours, at

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Speaker 1: dozens and dozens and dozens of hours, and then finally,

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Speaker 1: on the fourth day, I decided to keep my promise

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Speaker 1: to Elizabeth that I had made fifteen months earlier, and

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Speaker 1: I decided to take the blame for what she did.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I did. I told them the story

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Speaker 1: that she and I had cooked up. And of course

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Speaker 1: that false confession contained many mistakes that the real killer

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Speaker 1: would not have made. I described the clothing of one

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Speaker 1: victim incorrectly, and I placed the other in the wrong room,

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Speaker 1: and there were numerous mistakes like that which you should

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Speaker 1: have learned the police to the fact that I might

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Speaker 1: not be telling the truth. In addition to that, of course,

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Speaker 1: at that time the police who were interrogating me were

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Speaker 1: in possession of an FBI crime scene profile by one

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Speaker 1: of the people invented crime scene profiling, one of the

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Speaker 1: leading special agents, and that profile said that the crime

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Speaker 1: had been committed by a woman in a close relationship

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Speaker 1: to the victims. And of course I was a man,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know the victims like the one time

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Speaker 1: for twenty minutes, so they should have known that what

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Speaker 1: the story I was telling them was not true nevertheless.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course, the other thing that happened is

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Speaker 1: that just a couple of hours after I told the

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Speaker 1: police that I did it, Elizabeth told the police that

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Speaker 1: she did it. She said, I did it myself. I

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Speaker 1: got off on it. But by that space the police

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Speaker 1: had decided that I was a guilty one. So they

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Speaker 1: actually let her withdraw that confession, which is hilarious in

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Speaker 1: a way because they found hosting the prince at the

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Speaker 1: crime scene and not mine. And you know, it's quite

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Speaker 1: incredible that they let her with god that confession, but

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Speaker 1: they did. And so they ended up charging me with

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Speaker 1: being the killer, and they charged her with being the accomplice.

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Speaker 1: You have one minute remaining. They charged me with being

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Speaker 1: the killer, and they charged her with being an accomplice.

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Speaker 1: And in nineteen ninety they put me on trial and

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Speaker 1: convicted me of something that I did not do. But

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Speaker 1: we get back. I could talk about the blood which

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Speaker 1: they used at the trial and look changed later on.

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Speaker 1: So let me hang up and call back.

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Speaker 6: We're back.

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Speaker 1: Hey, we're back.

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Speaker 6: So there's there's a lot of things wrong with this case.

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Speaker 6: There's so many it's hard to even fit them into

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Speaker 6: an episode of the show, but one of them that

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Speaker 6: I talk about, and as you know, you know, we've

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Speaker 6: known each other quite some time, been advocating alongside this

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Speaker 6: amazing team of people that you have. And what I

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Speaker 6: say to anyone that will listen to me is this

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Speaker 6: is an unusual situation because normally in false confession cases

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Speaker 6: you have people who are trying not to implicate themselves

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Speaker 6: and who may be of limited mental abilities as well

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Speaker 6: in some cases. In your case, you were trying to

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Speaker 6: implicate yourself, right, so there would have been no reason

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Speaker 6: for you not to tell the truth if in fact

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Speaker 6: you knew what it was. But the reason that you

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Speaker 6: were wrong about these details is because you just didn't know.

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Speaker 6: So here you had a guy who were stually the

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Speaker 6: smartest guy in the room, and you were trying the

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Speaker 6: best to save your the love of what you thought

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Speaker 6: was the love of your life, and yet you were

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Speaker 6: unable to get almost anything right because of the fact

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Speaker 6: that you weren't there. So that makes it hard. And

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Speaker 6: I do want to bring John and Chip into the

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Speaker 6: conversation too, just to talk about this scenario that took

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Speaker 6: place in England and the immediate aftermath of it. John,

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Speaker 6: you want to jump in here.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it goes back to a confession, false confession, because

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Speaker 7: there there's no other proof to convict ends of the murder,

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Speaker 7: so you've got all they have is a false a confession,

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Speaker 7: And with any false confession case, what you would hope

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Speaker 7: that the authorities do is once they managed to extract

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Speaker 7: the confession and whatever technics they used to do that

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Speaker 7: is that they will match it up to the physical

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Speaker 7: events to see if it in fact matches and false

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Speaker 7: confessions virtually never match up because there are too many details.

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Speaker 7: There are too many uh, specifics in the murder, the

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Speaker 7: method of murder, the place, the blood, the blood splatter,

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Speaker 7: the clothing, the room, whatever. There's a whole fingerprints, footprints,

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Speaker 7: and there's a long list of items that you know.

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Speaker 7: The police go through any investigation, and with a false confession,

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Speaker 7: it's usually fairly simple to uh to realize once you

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Speaker 7: start matching the confession given by somebody who wasn't there,

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Speaker 7: it's impossible for them to remember all the details that

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Speaker 7: the real killer would actually know, where he left the bodies,

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Speaker 7: how he killed them, Well you know who who did what,

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Speaker 7: what was on the kitchen table, what was knocked over,

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Speaker 7: what was spilt these are all, you know, it's fairly

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Speaker 7: common common sense. And then in Yen's case, you know

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Speaker 7: there were so many discrepancies between his confession and the

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Speaker 7: actual physical crime scene. You just want to scream and say,

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Speaker 7: why didn't somebody put these together, match them up? And somebody,

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Speaker 7: whether the cops and the local boys, are you know,

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Speaker 7: not always that reliable, especially in a rural county like Bedford, Virginia,

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Speaker 7: where you know they don't see a lot of murders

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Speaker 7: and the cops are not that well trained and sophisticated.

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Speaker 7: You just you you want to say, why can't you

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Speaker 7: guys look at what's obvious. What frustrates me is when

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Speaker 7: you get to trial and you have what you think

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Speaker 7: should be a competent defense lawyer who cannot walk through

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Speaker 7: the confession step by step by step and show the

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Speaker 7: discrepancies between the confession and the actual crime scene. I'm

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Speaker 7: not sure if this was done or attempted in Yuen's case,

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Speaker 7: but it certainly was not effective. And so that's that's

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Speaker 7: what we always start in a false confession case is

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Speaker 7: let's match it up with the proof, and it never

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Speaker 7: matches up.

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Speaker 6: It never does. And this was a crazy case because

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Speaker 6: on top of all the other, you know, factors that

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Speaker 6: led to his wrongful conviction. I think there was an

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Speaker 6: inherent bias. I can't prove this because of the fact

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Speaker 6: that it was Bedford County, which ironically is the county

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Speaker 6: that lost more soldiers in World War Two to the

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Speaker 6: Germans per capital than anywhere else in the United States.

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Speaker 6: It's why the World War Two Memorial is there. And

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Speaker 6: so I think that there's at least an argument that

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Speaker 6: there could have been a the odds wood stacked against

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Speaker 6: the ends from the beginning. I want to bring Sheriff

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Speaker 6: Harding into the conversation. Sheriff Harding is a Ford You've

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Speaker 6: been in law enforcement for several decades, four decades, right,

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Speaker 6: and have been recognized by it's I mean, his resume

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Speaker 6: is nuts when you look at the number of accreditations

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Speaker 6: he has and the number of awards he's won, and

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Speaker 6: he's one of the most accomplished people in law enforcement

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Speaker 6: in the United States. And you've been You've dived into

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Speaker 6: this case with I mean, with all guns blazing, so

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Speaker 6: to speak. And is it possible, Sheriff You've examined this

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Speaker 6: evidence eighteen ways till Sunday. Is it theoretically possible that

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Speaker 6: Ian's committed this crime.

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Speaker 9: Is it possible, I mean he could have been dropped

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Speaker 9: down with us from a spaceship and done it. But

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Speaker 9: is it logical he was there when these murders occurred.

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Speaker 9: Extremely unlikely he was there. There's nothing that puts him

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Speaker 9: there other than this false confession. And as John was

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Speaker 9: saying earlier, the confession didn't match the crime scene when

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Speaker 9: you look at it, I mean, there was some huge discrepancies.

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Speaker 4: That weren't followed up.

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Speaker 9: You had a young investigator, his first homicide case she'd

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Speaker 9: ever investigated, and I'm reading a transcript going, you got

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Speaker 9: to be kidneyed. You didn't do any follow up. Plus

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Speaker 9: they didn't tape the confession. So when he gets to court,

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Speaker 9: very skillfully, the prosecutor only asked questions that were consistent

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Speaker 9: with the cram scene in the event and omitted the inconsistencies.

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Speaker 9: And as John was pouring out, he had a very

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Speaker 9: very ineffective defense attorney that didn't bring that to the

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Speaker 9: attention of the jury.

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Speaker 6: Among other things. And yet take us back in your

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Speaker 6: you know, from your perspective, this this is a nightmare

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Speaker 6: that no one can imagine living through you were. You

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Speaker 6: had been in jail in England for quite some time

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Speaker 6: before you even came to trial. You had nothing in

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Speaker 6: your life experience that would prepare you for any of this,

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Speaker 6: And now here you are in the in the grip

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Speaker 6: of the justice system in Virginia as a sort of

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Speaker 6: an arch villain, right, And what was this like for

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Speaker 6: you to go through this at the time? Did you

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Speaker 6: believe that you would be that you would actually win

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Speaker 6: this case?

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Speaker 1: Can I go in a couple of other factories and

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Speaker 1: then answer your question details that corroborate the confession. At

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Speaker 1: the time of the trial, the prosecutor pointed out to

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Speaker 1: the jury twenty six times that the police found some

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Speaker 1: O type blood at the crime scene, and that I

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Speaker 1: was the only person involved in the case who had

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Speaker 1: type old blood. The victims did not have Type O blood,

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Speaker 1: and my girlfriend did not have type of blood. The

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Speaker 1: only person involved in the case was type oh blood

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Speaker 1: was meat, is what the prosecutor told the jury twenty

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Speaker 1: six times. And it would take another two and a

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Speaker 1: half decades to find out through DNA testing that indeed

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Speaker 1: that was type of blood that was left by somebody else.

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Speaker 1: So what is the fact that seemed to corroborate the

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Speaker 1: confession at the time of the trial. It's now shown

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Speaker 1: to actually prove the confession.

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Speaker 6: And talk more about that, Sheriff Harding, what percentage of

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Speaker 6: the population has this type of blood? I think it's

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Speaker 6: about forty five percent, isn't it. It's pretty high, right,

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Speaker 6: So I mean that really is I mean, it's a

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Speaker 6: ridiculous thing to try to pin anything on, but yet

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Speaker 6: the prosecutor mentioned it for twenty six times. It's also

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Speaker 6: worth mentioning that Yenz's lead trial lawyer was disbarred a

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Speaker 6: few years after your your false, your wrongful conviction, and

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Speaker 6: he was disbarred because of mental illness. Drugs were a

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Speaker 6: factor in all of this, and it was shown that

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Speaker 6: he was suffering from this, this this profound problem during

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Speaker 6: the time of your trial. So that's just another important

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Speaker 6: thing to recognize.

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Speaker 1: You feel like you wanted to know what it felt

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Speaker 1: like at that stage in nineteen ninety, I had already

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Speaker 1: been in prison for four years, finding expedition from England

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Speaker 1: to the United States. For most of those four years,

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Speaker 1: I was convinced that all my lawyers were convinced and

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Speaker 1: everybody thought that I was definitely be sentenced to death.

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Speaker 1: So I spent four years in prison in effect psychologically

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Speaker 1: on death row. I was Everybody, including my own team,

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Speaker 1: told me that I had no chance of avoiding the

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Speaker 1: Electric two, and then at the last minute that was avoided.

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Speaker 1: We won an appeal at the European Court of Human

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Speaker 1: Rights and I was brought back to America. And that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing has an effect on you psychologically.

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Speaker 2: Living in prison for four years believing.

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Speaker 1: That you're going to die pretty increasingly in the Electric two,

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Speaker 1: and then I got that brought back to his virginion.

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Speaker 1: Everybody hated me. Everybody was convinced I was guilty, and

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Speaker 1: it was you know, he was really scary. I was.

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Speaker 1: It was very frightening experience and I did not handle

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Speaker 1: it well. I did not handle it well. But again

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Speaker 1: you have to put them against the background of my

384
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Speaker 1: having spent you know, three years under commin a breath

385
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Speaker 1: of death and then coming into the zo atmosphere and

386
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Speaker 1: having to see Elizabeth Haysen, a woman that that sacrificed

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Speaker 1: myself for get up understand and Toldure herself and tell

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Speaker 1: all these lies to put me away in prison. And

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Speaker 1: when I say that, she toldured herself, that's not just

390
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Speaker 1: the claim I make. Twenty six years later, she actually

391
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Speaker 1: admitted that in a newspaper interview. She admitted that she

392
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Speaker 1: told her herself at that trial. But at that time

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Speaker 1: nobody knew that, and nobody caired. They just wanted a

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Speaker 1: witness to point the Fingrette mean, and she did that job.

395
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Speaker 1: And that and my own false confession and the type

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Speaker 1: of blood.

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Speaker 6: That's what did me in and the sock print, of course,

398
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Speaker 6: was a ridiculous piece of evidence that no serious person

399
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Speaker 6: should have ever even it shouldn't been allowed in court,

400
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Speaker 6: and it shouldn't have been in the way that was

401
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Speaker 6: done was very devious. But I want to go back

402
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Speaker 6: to John and Chip here, because John, you were a

403
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Speaker 6: criminal defense lawyer in your younger years, and Chip obviously

404
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 6: you were very accomplished investigator. How would you guys have

405
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 6: handled this? And do you think what could have been

406
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Speaker 6: done to save YenS? And if you were, if you

407
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Speaker 6: were representing him back then, what would you have said.

408
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Speaker 7: It's difficult to, you know, project myself into that situation,

409
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Speaker 7: especially now many years later. I only practiced law for

410
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Speaker 7: ten years, and my dream when I was very young

411
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Speaker 7: was to become an accomplished courtroom lawyer, a big time

412
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Speaker 7: trial lawyer, and to do that, I volunteered for all

413
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Speaker 7: of the indigen cases that I could possibly get because

414
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Speaker 7: I needed to work, but also it got me in

415
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Speaker 7: the courtroom. And within within two years of finishing law school,

416
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Speaker 7: I had tried two murder cases by myself, no second chair.

417
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Speaker 7: They weren't capital cases, but they were murder cases, and

418
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Speaker 7: I had won both of them not guilty. And so

419
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Speaker 7: I was in the courtroom a lot. I did win

420
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Speaker 7: many cases because they weren't supposed to be one. Uh,

421
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Speaker 7: most of my clients went to prison. But anyway, that

422
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 7: was that was my world back then, was criminal defense law,

423
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Speaker 7: and I wanted to parlay that into you know, a

424
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Speaker 7: courtroom resume for for big cases. And so that was

425
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Speaker 7: very much the way I lived back then. And when

426
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 7: I read these cases, and I read a lot of

427
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Speaker 7: them now being on the board of the Innocence Project

428
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 7: and working with innocence cases, and you see some of

429
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 7: the defense work by lawyers. And this was a private

430
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 7: attorney that he and his family provided, a guy who

431
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 7: was not even from the area. I think he's from

432
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 7: Detroit to someplace. But to see the incompetence of defense

433
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 7: lawyers and the lack of effort, the lack of integrity

434
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 7: and challenging the prosecution, even challenging the judges. It's extremely

435
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 7: frustrating and we see it all the time in wrongful

436
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 7: conviction cases where you have all the reasons, all of

437
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 7: the factors that lead to wrongful convictions, whether it's junk

438
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 7: science or jail house niches or false confessions or whatever.

439
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 7: You have a list, But the one that really irritates

440
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 7: me a lot is the incompetent defense work, because there's

441
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 7: no excuse for it's a question of simple hard work

442
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 7: or saying no to a case you shouldn't take to

443
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 7: begin with. So I can't tell you specifically what I

444
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 7: would have done thirty years ago to save Yen's I

445
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 7: can't do that. I'm not that smart. But hard work.

446
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 7: There's rarely a substitute for hard work and fortitude in

447
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 7: challenging the facts, and I didn't see it in this case.

448
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 6: And Tariff harding. I want to talk to you because

449
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 6: it's interesting to me that you know YenS has assembled

450
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 6: this remarkable team and it's a great credit to him.

451
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 6: And you're an interesting character in this because you're a

452
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 6: conservative guy or a guy who's obviously law and order guy,

453
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 6: and yet you have devoted yourself selflessly and spent time

454
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 6: that you could have been doing anything else to hundreds

455
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 6: of hours to this case. So can you talk about that?

456
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 6: And then can you talk about the actual forensic evidence?

457
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: Right?

458
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 9: Well, his attorney, Stephen Rosenfield, asked me to take a

459
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 9: look at part of the pardon petition to see if

460
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 9: I could find a way to strengthen it or to

461
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 9: see if he's miss missed.

462
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 4: Something in it.

463
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 9: And I told Steve at the beginning, I felt like

464
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 9: you was guilty based on everything I'd seen. I know

465
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 9: Governor Kane had tried to send him back to Germany.

466
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 9: I was opposed to that because I felt like he

467
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 9: was guilty. He shouldn't been given any special consideration just

468
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 9: because he was a German. But so Steve gave me

469
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,239
Speaker 9: the case, said won't take but a couple hours. Well,

470
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 9: I ended up taking a bunch of stuff home at night.

471
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 9: My wife thought I'd lost my mind because I spent

472
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 9: basically the whole weekend the dining room table covered with

473
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 9: material that Steve gave me, and I said, oh my god,

474
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 9: this is nothing like what.

475
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 4: Was represented and in conclusion.

476
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 9: I ended up writing a nineteen page letter to the

477
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 9: governor breaking down the closing arguments of the case. You know,

478
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 9: that's the strength of the government's case. Last bitey to

479
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 9: Apple and I.

480
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 4: Broke that down.

481
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 9: And then after that was published, I had another investigator

482
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 9: worked with me for twenty five years, said, let me

483
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 9: help form an FBI agent that I know that I

484
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 9: worked another case with jumped in and one of the

485
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,239
Speaker 9: original Bedford investigators said he felt like Yen's had been

486
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 9: railroaded and was innocent also, So the four of us

487
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 9: had been working it collectively. We've given a couple of

488
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 9: thousand hours, and you want to talk briefly about to forensics.

489
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 9: The old blood was very powerful, as was mentioned, and

490
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 9: I will say if I was on that jury, I

491
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 9: would have convicted him based on it the way the

492
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 9: evidence was represented so skillfully by the prosecutor. The old

493
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 9: blood now we know absolutely no one can test the

494
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 9: fact that it's not insurting. He's not been detected in

495
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 9: the crime scene. But two other males, one with a

496
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 9: b blood and one with old blood, have been detected

497
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 9: in the crime scene, and we have not identified those

498
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 9: people have not in my opinion, Bedford County should consider

499
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 9: having an open homicide investigation. Then you look at the

500
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 9: next piece of evidence that was pretty powerful.

501
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 4: The Commonwealth.

502
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 9: Originally got a certificate of analysis from the State Bureau

503
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 9: Forensics saying.

504
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: That the shoes you have one minute remaining.

505
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 9: The shoe in sox size was consistent with a six

506
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 9: and a half to seven and a half woman shoe

507
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 9: a man five or six they originally had.

508
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 4: And this just blew my mind.

509
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 9: They originally had a small female as a prime suspect

510
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 9: in this thing. And the prosecutor wrote a letter and

511
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 9: we got a copy of it attached with a draft

512
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 9: after David saying that he wanted this woman's blood, finger prints,

513
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 9: and shoe impressions because her shoe was consistent with what

514
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 9: was in the crime scene. Now you turn around and

515
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 9: go to trial, you don't hear anything. The defense attorney

516
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 9: brings nothing up. They bring in a non qualified individual

517
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 9: to testify. He did a what we like to refer

518
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 9: to as a magic trick, created an over delay of

519
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 9: an impression of Yen's foot and said it basically fits

520
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 9: like a.

521
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: Glove, reminds you of oja.

522
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 9: And he was even instructed he could not testify as

523
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 9: an expert. But when you look at the closing arguments

524
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 9: of the prosecutor, he says it can.

525
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 4: Only fit one man.

526
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 9: One man in the world could fit and he points

527
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 9: at yensering and we know that's hooplaw, that's junk evidence.

528
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 9: And the same man that put this on in front

529
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 9: of the jury, Robert Haylett, did the same thing in

530
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 9: another case where a man was given the death penalty,

531
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 9: and thank god.

532
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 4: It took a few years. He did not get executed.

533
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 9: DNA proved he absolutely didn't do it. So here you

534
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 9: have the same junk science being used again. There was

535
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 9: a jura that gave an affidavit to the attorneys that

536
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 9: said it was tied six' six in the jury. Room

537
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 9: they wanted to take a look at the sock and

538
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 9: shoe evidence again and he said that's what turned the.

539
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 9: Tide and we know, now we know now that's. Ludicrous

540
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 9: there are really two. Parts you've got a false confession

541
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 9: and you also have a false. Alibi you've Got elizabeth

542
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 9: whose claims she stayed at the hotel room and When

543
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 9: yen's came, back she, Said YenS comes back that night

544
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 9: after midnight in a sheet covered in blood from head

545
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 9: to toe in the rental, vehicle And YenS asked her

546
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 9: to clean it up with coca. Cola yet that vehicle

547
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 9: was tested with, luminol And i've never had a case

548
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 9: where blood had been, present Even bleach had gotten it all,

549
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 9: out no indication of any blood at, all and was

550
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 9: testimony from the folks at the rental agency that the

551
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 9: car was in immaculate, condition no signs of any coca.

552
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 4: Cola we have since.

553
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 9: Learned and digging in the little limited, information we can

554
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 9: see that there was actually blood found in the trap

555
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 9: of the shower of the master, bedroom and that shower

556
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 9: wall illuminated like fourth Of, July so it gives us

557
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 9: the impression as investigators at least one of the participants

558
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 9: in this homicide took a, Shower so why would he

559
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 9: be covered in blood from head to? Toe it's, Impossible

560
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 9: and there are three or four more things That elizabeth

561
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 9: says that. Occurred we can disprove with her. Alibi as

562
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 9: a matter of, fact in our, clothes we have not

563
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 9: everything that has.

564
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 4: Come out of that woman's.

565
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 9: Mouth we can either prove is provable that she's, lying

566
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 9: or it's highly suspect she's. Lying we've looked very hard

567
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 9: at everything At yen's has, said and we have not

568
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 9: caught him in a. Lie everything that he, said we

569
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 9: have no reason not to believe.

570
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 6: Him there's a book That yen's wrote With Bill seismore

571
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 6: Called The Far Far Better thing in on page two,

572
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 6: Twenty i'm going to read. This Russell, johnson a fully

573
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 6: qualified footprint, expert was so outraged that he wrote a

574
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 6: letter to the editor of The Roanoke newspaper declaring that

575
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 6: the sockprint evidence was worthless junk. Science he, said there

576
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 6: appeared to have been a slide in the heel before

577
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 6: it came to, rest which of course would invalidate any

578
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 6: attempt to size the thing. Up and then he made

579
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 6: a very strong quote that said that the bloody sock

580
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 6: print quote provides no evidence whatsoever that Mister surring was

581
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 6: at the scene of the. Crime so the idea that

582
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 6: this was the thing that the jurors cite as the

583
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 6: thing that broke them from a six to six tie

584
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 6: to it ultimately a unanimous guilty, verdict it should be

585
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 6: offensive to anyone who believes in truth and, justice and

586
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 6: certainly is to, us which is why we're here. Now

587
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 6: john do you look like you have something on your?

588
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 7: Mind, No i'm just fascinated by the level of junk

589
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 7: science that permeates our quote room still. Today it's sock

590
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 7: print analysis or bite mark, analysis or hair analysis or

591
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 7: boot print. Analysis there's a long said list of these

592
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 7: analyzes that have put so many people in, prison uttered

593
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 7: by people who are not. Qualified you you, know you

594
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 7: can go to a weekend seminar and study blood splatter,

595
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 7: analysis get a certificate and call yourself an, expert and

596
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 7: some prosecutor somewhere can call you in at a murder

597
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 7: trial and, you you, know pretty much say whatever you

598
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 7: want you to. Say at The Instance, project we are

599
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 7: laboring to provide some national standard for forensic, sciences to

600
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 7: get to clean up the courtroom and get all the

601
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 7: crap out of, it so we have, good qualified experts

602
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 7: who give valid scientific opinions about things that are, really really.

603
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 7: Important you, know The Ron williamson, case the BOOK i

604
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 7: wrote about the innocent. Man he was convicted in part

605
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 7: because of hair analysis provided by The Oklahoma State Crime.

606
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 7: Lab and this expert took some scalp and pubic hair

607
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 7: from the crime scene and, said, yeah it's a bit Matches,

608
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 7: ron and the jury ate that. Up ten years later

609
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 7: that same hair When ron was tried in eighty, seven

610
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 7: there's NO. Dna ten years later we HAD dna and

611
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 7: all seventeen hares were excluded BY dna From Ron. Williamson

612
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 7: and then later a few years, ago THE fbi admitted

613
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 7: that when it comes to hair, analysis ninety five percent

614
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 7: of their OWN fbi examiners got it. Wrong, okay that's THE,

615
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 7: fbi that's the cream of the. Crop can you imagine

616
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 7: what the numbers are for the state crime. Lab so

617
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 7: the junk science is just, sickening And YenS is in

618
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 7: prison today because of junk.

619
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 6: Science it's there's so much because this, case we were

620
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 6: talking about a case in which a couple was brutally,

621
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 6: murdered stabbed multiple, times each of them very bloody crime,

622
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 6: scene full rich with biological evidence from the actual. Killers in,

623
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 6: theory you also had a logical explanation for this in

624
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,479
Speaker 6: That elizabeth had said multiple times that she had been

625
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 6: sexually abused by her, mother that her father may have

626
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 6: been involved in.

627
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: This in some.

628
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 6: Way there was a clear. Motive in that, sense you had,

629
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 6: drugs which no one ever claimed that you were on.

630
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 6: Drugs but we know that she was doing hard drugs

631
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 6: and that she was running with a, very very nefarious

632
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 6: crew back then and would have had access to the

633
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 6: type of people who might commit a murder like. This

634
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 6: people who knew you back, then including some people for law,

635
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 6: enforcement said that it Was Even elizabeth said it was

636
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 6: ludicrous to think that you could have committed a brutal

637
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 6: crime like this because you're not a physically imposing. Guy

638
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 6: it would have had to overpower to. Adults none of

639
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 6: it ever made any, sense and there should have been

640
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 6: it should have been relatively. Simple and, now of, course

641
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 6: so many people have weighed in on, this Including Chuck,

642
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 6: read one of the original investigators in the, case who

643
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 6: has said in emphatic terms that it could not have been,

644
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 6: you that he doesn't believe it was. You and yet

645
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 6: we still find ourselves in this situation where we're still

646
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 6: all trying to get you. Out and it's also worth

647
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 6: talking about the fact that you have while in, prison

648
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 6: distinguished yourself in ways that are almost, unprecedented writing nine

649
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 6: books widely published As Educating, yourself becoming a Tai chi,

650
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 6: master and meditation, teacher and of course having had an

651
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 6: absolutely perfect record behind, BARS i often talk about the

652
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 6: fact that you've, never to my, knowledge never even spilled your,

653
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 6: Coffee so it's remarkable in what it says about, you

654
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 6: and also about the idea that we are a nation

655
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 6: supposedly of second chances of. Forgiveness so why anyone would

656
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 6: want to keep you in even if they are unwilling or,

657
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 6: unable unwilling to look at or able to understand the

658
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 6: scientific evidence of your, Innocence the idea that we still

659
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 6: keep you behind, bars it's just it's an affront to

660
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 6: anyone who believes in and just. Decency, well it's been,

661
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 6: very very difficult for, me especially over the last.

662
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: Two and a half years since the pardon petition was

663
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: submitted based on THE dna. Evidence it's been really difficult

664
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: for me because for.

665
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: Thirty years we thought there was NO.

666
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: Dna evidence in this case that could prove my, innocence

667
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: and then after thirty years in, prison was ACTUALLY i

668
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: on the, phone worked my, Lawyer Steve, rosensfield flipping through

669
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: some old forensic. REPORTS i found it in, evidence and you,

670
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: know that's the pardon detriction is based. On years, later

671
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: we cannot get anybody to act on, that's you, know.

672
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: The thirty years of wishing for THE, dna and THEN.

673
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: I finally get THE, dna and then nobody is going

674
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: to listen more do anything about.

675
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 6: It let me jump in for a, second because we

676
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 6: have here an, interesting, uh such an amazing, group. Right

677
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 6: we Have John, grisham who is you, know one of

678
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 6: the most, famous if not the most Famous virginian legendary

679
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 6: figure from the literary, world and who is certainly no

680
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 6: stranger to politics or. Justice and we Have Sheriff, harding

681
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 6: who knows his way around law enforcement as well or

682
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 6: better than anybody in the. State and maybe you guys

683
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 6: can try to give me some insight as to why

684
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 6: this case is such a difficult one to resolve in

685
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 6: the face of such overwhelming evidence of, innocence you, know

686
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 6: and such a strong group behind the. ENDS i mean

687
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 6: WHEN i say a strong. Group Angela. Merkel Angela merkel

688
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 6: spoke To President obama on several occasions About YEN'S i,

689
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 6: mean when have we ever heard of that the, president

690
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 6: the former president Of, Germany President, schultz flew To virginia

691
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 6: just for the purpose of meeting with the parole board

692
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 6: to say send him. Home i'll take care of. HIM

693
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 6: i want to house. HIM i want to get him a.

694
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 6: JOB i want to you, know mentor. HIM i, mean

695
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 6: you have the one of our most important allies in the,

696
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 6: world who have made it a national priority at the

697
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 6: highest levels to Extricate YenS from this impossible situation and

698
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 6: bring him back to his own. Country and yet here we.

699
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 6: Are can you guys touch on? This how do you explain?

700
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: This?

701
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 7: Well touch, ON i can't explain. It AND i think

702
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 7: you Know jason from your work in the innocence. World

703
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 7: as frustrating as this, is it's not. Unusual we've had

704
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 7: cases before where we have to fight tooth and nail

705
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 7: to OBTAIN dna testing for one of our, clients and

706
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 7: we get THE dna, testing all the objections of the

707
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 7: local prosecutors and local law, enforcement we get THE dna.

708
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 7: Testing it clears our client slash inmate, whatever and so he's. Cleared.

709
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 7: Okay then it takes a year procedurally to get him.

710
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 7: Out oftentimes the prosecutor will, say, WELL i don't really

711
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 7: believe THE dna. Results we're going to try you, again

712
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 7: and so they bring him back to the local jail

713
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 7: where they can keep him. Forever and a year goes.

714
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 7: By two years. Ago you know this is not again

715
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 7: as frustrating as it, is as maddening as it, Is

716
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 7: i'm ashamed to say it's not that. UNUSUAL i think

717
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 7: In yen's, case, though we are pressing ahead with the

718
00:42:53,960 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 7: full court press on many, fronts we are cautiously optimistic

719
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 7: that the right people are listening to. Us we are

720
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 7: almost sanctimonious in our belief that we are right and

721
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 7: everybody else is, wrong and it's time to make something good.

722
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 7: Happen and that's why we are going to these. Efforts

723
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 7: and we're not Gonna we're not gonna, stop slow down

724
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 7: or be. Quiet we're just going to get more and

725
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 7: more vocal and push harder and harder until we get.

726
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 6: Justice sheriff harding on top of all the other evidence

727
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 6: AND fbi agents Like Ed salzback who came forward and

728
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 6: others to say that there had been evidence that had

729
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 6: been hidden or not turned, over not disclosed in the

730
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 6: way that the law mandates that it must. Be there's

731
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 6: also in chapter eighteen of the book THAT i referenced,

732
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 6: before there's the story of the car in the woods,

733
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 6: right which would, again if you would think that this

734
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 6: alone would be enough to Send yen's, home you. Know

735
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 6: And i'm going to quote from the book, again you.

736
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 6: Know in twenty, Eleven Tony, buchanan the retired owner of

737
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 6: A lynchburg area auto transmission, shop said that three to

738
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 6: five months after the murders in nineteen eighty, five a

739
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 6: car was towed into his shop for. Repairs it's undercarriage

740
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 6: matted with grass and, mud as if it had been

741
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 6: sitting in the woods for a. While the tow truck

742
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 6: driver Told buchanan the two Door chevrolet belonged to quote

743
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 6: some college. Kids and here's the important. Part he, said

744
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 6: in a sworn statement that when he looked, inside he

745
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 6: saw that the floorboard on the driver's side was quote

746
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 6: full of dry. Blood beside the console between the front,

747
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 6: seats also covered in dried, blood was a single edged

748
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 6: hunting type, knife the same type that was used to

749
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 6: kill The. Haysums Now i'm sitting, Here i've got chills

750
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 6: just reading. That and you, know he this same guy,

751
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 6: testified or swore and offidated that neither none of those

752
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 6: people Were. Ends ends was not one of the people

753
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 6: that returned the. Car elizabeth was, one and somebody else

754
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 6: was the. Other but yet here we go.

755
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 9: Again, yeah he, claimed it's just a. Shame so much

756
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 9: time has. Passed he claimed that he called and spo

757
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 9: To Ricky, gardner who was the lead investigator now chief

758
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 9: deputy In, bedford and told him about. This gardner denies,

759
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 9: that says it didn't, happen so so much time has.

760
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 4: Passed some of.

761
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 9: The investigators did work that, lead and we kind of

762
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 9: ran it out because time was not on our. Side

763
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 9: we tried to find any, documentation material checks and all

764
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 9: that kind of. Stuff the banks just don't have it

765
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 9: from back in nineteen eighty. Five but if they'd been

766
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 9: followed up on properly at the, time same, way if

767
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 9: they had sent investigators to the hotel they'd stayed, at

768
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 9: it had cleared it up right away That ens was,

769
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 9: there she wouldn't it was his story of what he

770
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 9: purchased was consistent with the hotel bill which she said

771
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 9: she purchased when she stayed there was very inconsistent way

772
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 9: over with the bill showed in't. It but you, know

773
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 9: the bottom. Line most frustrated for me the law. Enforcement

774
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 9: i'm in law, enforcement AND i Hope i'm respecting law.

775
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 9: Enforcement i'm a sitting sheriff And yet the sitting sheriff

776
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 9: In Bedford county refuses to meet with me and even

777
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 9: discuss the. Case the lead investigator won't meet with the

778
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 9: four of us who've given thousands of hours pro gone

779
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 9: or we don't have anything in. It we're just looking for.

780
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 9: Justice we asked one hour and he says he doesn't have. Time,

781
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 9: however we do have him caught on videotape saying a

782
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 9: few years, ago this, happened thirty years, ago he was

783
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 9: convicted in. Court why do we need to go any further?

784
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 9: Then AND i think that's the, attitude which is it's

785
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 9: really shut.

786
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 4: Down from an investigative.

787
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 9: Standpoint we've not had access to the investigative files or

788
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 9: any further testing Because i'm out of my jurisdiction and

789
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 9: getting absolutely no cooperation From. Bedford we have proved absolutely

790
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 9: that they lied and concealed the fact that there was

791
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 9: AN fbi profile. Done my buddy who's RETIRED fbi. Agent

792
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 9: we had asked THE fbi several times and they couldn't

793
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 9: find any. Information, This Ricky gardner, said, absolutely one hundred

794
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 9: PERCENT pi if it was not. Done we now have

795
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 9: actual documents from nineteen eighty five from THE fbi that

796
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 9: indicated profile was done In, Quantico. Virginia so you, know

797
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 9: my buddy form MY fpi agen, said if they were

798
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 9: allowed about that and it won't, cooperate what else is?

799
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 9: There it certainly raises a red flag with us as.

800
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 9: Investigators do we have any form of corruption or wrong or.

801
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 6: Doing, yeah they won't even allow you to test THE

802
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 6: dna of two guys that we know are in for

803
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 6: committing similar crimes in another county In, virginia who we.

804
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 6: Don't we have no idea whether they committed this crime or,

805
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 6: not but there's there's some reason to believe that They

806
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 6: there were these two.

807
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 4: Guys in knife demand multiple times.

808
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 9: To death within a few, days and that far from

809
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 9: The haysom, residents whether those victims were, located and these two,

810
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 9: folks one of them at least, was according to his

811
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 9: background that we've, read was involved in heavy drugs in

812
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 9: The lynchburg, area as we Believe elizabeth. Was she was

813
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 9: a omitted heroin, user and THE dna should be in

814
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 9: the data. Bank they're both doing life for that. Murder

815
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 9: and we simply, asked would you take those, profiles compare

816
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 9: them to the crime, scene and the state, says can't do.

817
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 9: It it's got the jurisdiction where they offense. Occurred they have

818
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 9: to request.

819
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,720
Speaker 4: It and to our, knowledge they're not doing, anything.

820
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 6: Which is just, remarkable right when you think about the

821
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 6: idea that they just refuse to test something that can

822
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 6: only prove like one or, another either these guys did

823
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 6: it or they. Didn't why wouldn't we want to?

824
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 9: Know we want to know from an investigator, standpoint do

825
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 9: we want to keep following those two guys as a

826
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 9: lead or can they be excluded based on THE dna

827
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 9: very simply would take about three or four minutes to

828
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 9: compare those bar.

829
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 4: Codes it's so.

830
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 9: Frustrating i'm used to working in my own. Jurisdiction IF

831
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 9: i want something to, TESTED i ask a lab to do,

832
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 9: it they do. It IF i want to search, ONE

833
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 9: i get. It IF i have witnesses and we have

834
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 9: two or three people that need to be interviewed in this,

835
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 9: case they refuse to cooperate. WHATSOEVER i don't have any

836
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 9: grandeur authority to service a pena on.

837
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 4: Them SO i really feel for The innist's.

838
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 9: PROJECT i see what they go through now now That

839
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 9: i'm on the other side of the, FENCE i feel

840
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 9: like you operating with both hands tad behind your. Back

841
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 9: everything's working against. You so you got to put a

842
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 9: lot more work and effort into it than you really

843
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 9: should and try to get to the, truth which we

844
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 9: all should. Want but apparently we don't all always want

845
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 9: the truth and.

846
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 4: Justice you.

847
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 6: Know it's also SOMETHING i want to touch on BEFORE

848
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 6: i turn over To john for a, second which is

849
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 6: that back in two thousand and eight or, nine with

850
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 6: the support Of Bishop sullivan and other luminaries both religious

851
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 6: and political, Figures Governor kine granted a conditional pard AND

852
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 6: i guess we would say would have allowed you to

853
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 6: go back To. Germany and this is such an unbelievable

854
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 6: thing to even think. About WHEN i hear myself tell

855
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 6: the story to, PEOPLE i don't even believe it, myself

856
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 6: BUT i know it's. True and then as literally as

857
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 6: you were packing your, bags the, governor the new governor came,

858
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 6: In governor, McDonell and he revoked for the first time

859
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 6: and then two hundred and thirty four year history Of.

860
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 6: Virginia he revoked the previous governor's order and decided that

861
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 6: you would be kept in prison for the rest of your.

862
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 6: Life which is just an unbelievable thing to, process and it.

863
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 6: Is it is remarkable going back and thinking about the

864
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 6: number of, people on the quality of people that have

865
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 6: come to your, defense and even now the support of

866
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 6: amazing people from journalism The Washington post who are even

867
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 6: here today covering the. Story so many of the literally

868
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 6: the finest organizations and the leaders of different from all

869
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 6: all parts of the country have have taken up this.

870
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 6: Cause AND i wanted to ask, You, john of all

871
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 6: the millions of things you could be doing with your

872
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 6: time right. Now and we know that with about you,

873
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 6: know the estimates are five percent of people in prison In,

874
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 6: america which is about one hundred thousand, people are. Innocent

875
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 6: there's so many innocent. People and again there's so many

876
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 6: other things that You sheriff, me the millions of the

877
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 6: pro bono lawyers who have helped you in throughout the

878
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 6: years and still help them. Now Steve, Rosen Phelps, northulp and.

879
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 6: Others why are you so obsessed with this? CASE i

880
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 6: wouldn't Say i'm.

881
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 7: Obsessed i'm very concerned about. It Since The Innocent man

882
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 7: was published in two thousand and six AND i joined

883
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 7: the board of The innocence project In New. York i've

884
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 7: done a lot of this type of work as.

885
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 9: You, Have.

886
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 7: JASON i haven't done as much as you, have but,

887
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 7: we as individual, members we tend to get involved in

888
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 7: cases that we hear. About i'm still involved with the

889
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 7: two guys In. Oklahoma there's a case In mississippi That

890
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 7: i'm involved. With i've known about the End searing case

891
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 7: here for twenty Five we've lived here twenty five years In,

892
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 7: charlottsville And i've read about the case a long. Time

893
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 7: BECAUSE i didn't pay much attention to. IT i saw that

894
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 7: it was a. CONFESSION i, figured, well, okay they got

895
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 7: the right. Guy was never too involved in the. Case

896
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 7: and then a couple of years, ago.

897
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 4: Talked To Steve.

898
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 7: Rooseveld we you, know we had we had a, coffee

899
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 7: talked about the, case and he asked me to take

900
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 7: a look at. It, well by then the case had

901
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 7: been looked, at, uh so many different ways by so

902
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 7: many different. People And Chip harding, also uh you, know

903
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 7: spoke about the case and said he by then he

904
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 7: had five hundred hours in the. Case he's probably got

905
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 7: five thousand.

906
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: Now BUT.

907
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 7: I just started reading about the. Case he read read the,

908
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 7: book saw the movie and realized this took, place you,

909
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 7: know very close to WHERE i. LIVE i was, convinced

910
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 7: became convinced it was a huge miscarriage of, justice AND

911
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 7: uh became fascinated with. It and you, KNOW i thought

912
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 7: about writing the. STORY i thought about writing the. Book.

913
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 7: Uh these instance cases always inspire me to write the

914
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 7: story because the stories are so almost all of them

915
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 7: are so, fascinating, compelling. Heartbreaking. Uh but they're just, good, rich,

916
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 7: deep complicated, stories AND i love that type of a.

917
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 6: Story so.

918
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 7: You, KNOW i talk to You. Jason we we've known

919
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 7: each other for a long. Time we we sort of

920
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 7: got involved in the case after you and and here we.

921
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,479
Speaker 7: Are and the more work THAT i, Do i'm still

922
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 7: catching up to you. Guys but the more we work,

923
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 7: together the more were the more determined we are to

924
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 7: to get a just decision in this. Case and we

925
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 7: have you, know we have several avenues. Left it's not

926
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 7: it's not helpless by any. Means we don't view it as.

927
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 7: Hopeless we we think we can smell.

928
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 4: Victory john was.

929
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: Just speaking about the multiple avenues. Available most innocence cases

930
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: have only one real, option and that's hardened and that's

931
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: usually a full, part and that makes it very difficult

932
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 1: because somebody has to admit that they made a terrible.

933
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: Mistake my case is a little bit unusual and that

934
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: the state actually has. Stilling they have the option of

935
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: an absolute, pardon which would be to player my innocence

936
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 1: and actually admit what really, happened which was that this

937
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: is a wrongful. Conviction but they have other.

938
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 10: Options they have a conditional, pardon.

939
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: Which would be just to say that there's a lot of,

940
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: doubts but not to Say i'm actually, innocent just to

941
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: say there's a lot of questions and a lot of,

942
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: doubts you can't be. Sure and then there's a third,

943
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: option and that would be. Parrole so one of mystifying

944
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: things to me about this is my case in comparison

945
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: to other, cases is that they have a whole smorgas

946
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: board of options to choose from full pardon or absolute,

947
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: pardon conditional, pardon and then prow and they're choosing not.

948
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 10: To exercise any of these.

949
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: Options AND i find that.

950
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 6: Pruggling Suf F, Haardine i'm gonna put the same question to.

951
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 6: YOU i, MEAN i have my own, REASONS i mean

952
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 6: different cases affect all of us. Differently you're Both virginia of.

953
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 6: Guys i'm A New york, guy but you, KNOW i

954
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 6: recognize injustice WHEN i see, it AND i also recognize

955
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 6: in this case the added tragedy of human potential in

956
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 6: That end's and he AND i have talked about this at,

957
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 6: length the idea that Y ends could BE i, mean

958
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 6: he has contributed a lot to society even from the

959
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 6: inside of these maximum security prisons he's been stuck in

960
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 6: for all these. Years but the idea that he could be,

961
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 6: out you, know doing great things with his intellect and

962
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 6: with his spirit and his. Courage but what is it

963
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 6: about this case in particular that makes you want a

964
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 6: devote your free time when you, know again you could

965
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 6: be out fishing or whatever it, is playing.

966
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 9: Golf, well this just came to me And i'm captivated by.

967
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 9: It like you, say you really have to dig into.

968
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 4: It what to really grab hold of.

969
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 9: YOU i first got it really interested in this type of,

970
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 9: work innocence, work by Reading John grisham's book back when

971
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 9: it first came, Out The Innocent. Man and THEN i

972
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 9: became friends With Brandon garrett used to be a professor

973
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 9: here At UVa's At Duke. University now he has a

974
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 9: book Out Wrong Full, Convictions how criminal prosecutions Went, wrong

975
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 9: and he's got a lot of research. Data i'm not,

976
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 9: bragging BUT i worked as an investigator and investigative supervisor

977
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 9: for over thirty years AND i never lost a case

978
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 9: and always THOUGHT i did it.

979
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 4: Right but after Reading john's book With Holy.

980
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 9: TALEDA i don't THINK i ever wrongly convicted, someone but

981
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 9: the opportunity surely was. There you tend to get tunnel,

982
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 9: vision just like these folks did. Here you tend to

983
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 9: go in those gray areas that you think because you

984
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 9: think you've got the right, guy you're doing the right

985
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 9: thing to protect your, community and you're not necessarily doing.

986
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 9: That so in looking at this, Case i'm seeing all

987
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,240
Speaker 9: of those. Things i'm seeing tunnel. Vision i'm seeing junk.

988
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 9: Science i'm seeing so much wouldn't be interesting IF i

989
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 9: had to sit in jail like he is to look at.

990
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 9: It But i'm finding it a fascinating case to dig.

991
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 9: INTO i read some of the. Letters it just blew me.

992
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 9: Away there was one By elizabeth that she wrote ninety

993
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 9: days before the murder that, Said i'd always believe THAT

994
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 9: i made men fall in love with me SO i

995
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 9: could take out all the HATRED i felt for them

996
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 9: by humiliating. THEM i despised their cheap lust and easy,

997
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 9: passions and in the END i made them hate themselves

998
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 9: for loving me and the torture, inflicted so she might

999
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 9: be enjoying him sitting. There the other part of it

1000
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 9: is looking At Jim, updyke who give him. CREDIT i

1001
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 9: Thought edi did a good masterful job of winning the.

1002
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 9: CASE i don't know if it was about, justice he

1003
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 9: wrote in an interview That i've got a copy. Of

1004
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 9: on one, hand she freely admitted her parents wouldn't be

1005
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 9: dead if not for. HER i agree with that she

1006
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 9: onaned them. Dead on the other, hand she was a

1007
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 9: great assistance to, Me updyke, said hastim helped him gather

1008
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 9: the evidence against, sowing and even outlined the whole case for.

1009
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 9: Him got to be kidding, Me but you see this

1010
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 9: stuff all over the, country you know right, Now i've

1011
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 9: got a lot of invested in, this as do the other,

1012
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 9: investigators and and we'll do anything we can.

1013
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 4: Prove his innocence if he's we do feel like he is, innocent.

1014
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 6: And we will prevail because we're not going As john,

1015
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 6: said we're not going to. Stop we're going to keep

1016
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 6: fighting until we get him out and then we'll move

1017
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 6: on to the next. One but until that's, done we're

1018
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 6: Not we're just going to get noisier and we're going

1019
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 6: to get more efficient and uh we're going to, uh you,

1020
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 6: know ultimately. PREVAIL i think, that you, know we do

1021
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 6: have a state here WHERE i think there's a number

1022
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 6: of very good people in the. SYSTEM i think that

1023
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 6: people on the parle board are very well meaning, people

1024
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 6: AND i think the governor is a is a good

1025
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 6: governor who cares about this, stuff cares about. JUSTICE i

1026
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 6: don't think that's true in all states by any, means

1027
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 6: BUT i think that that is true, here and we're

1028
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 6: gonna we're gonna find out just how true it is

1029
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 6: by shining a light on all these different aspects of the.

1030
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 6: Case Yen's before we, CLOSE i did want to ask

1031
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 6: you about your your current, team what they've meant to,

1032
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 6: you as well As Gail Starling marshall and you, know

1033
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 6: if you can just touch on, THAT i had a

1034
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 6: really really.

1035
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 10: Bad Child lodger who was eventually, desparred like you, mentioned

1036
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 10: But i've.

1037
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: Also had really really fantastic.

1038
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 2: Loveness fighting, fully including Former Deputy.

1039
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 10: Attorney General Gale Starling marshall Also glad and it's in the,

1040
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 10: movie and of Course.

1041
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 2: Steve, rosenstield who has suffered with me not in so many,

1042
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 2: years And Steve. Multin you, know there's you, know lawyers

1043
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 2: cut a lot of, blame.

1044
00:59:55,240 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 5: But there's some really wonderful loveness as, well and and

1045
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 5: that has been.

1046
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: Really really helpful to me as well to know, that you,

1047
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 2: know not everybody in the legal possession is.

1048
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 5: Awful there are some really really fantastic human beings working

1049
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 5: of ers and and.

1050
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 2: Then you know the stuff you guys have had wonderful.

1051
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: People like you and and telling posession and nine seine to.

1052
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 10: Just to read it to the editor public yesterday in

1053
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 10: The Richmond.

1054
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: Times of that.

1055
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: You, know the people who really have more enplightan and

1056
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 2: better things to do with their life than to worry about, me.

1057
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 1: You, know stepping into my life and trying to help.

1058
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 2: Me that's that's really really encouraging.

1059
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 5: And and and has given me hope and.

1060
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 3: And it gives me the hope to.

1061
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 2: Try to hold on a little while, longer.

1062
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 1: You, know to see whether this can be.

1063
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 2: Resolved in some way Super flan BEFORE i die of all, WAIT.

1064
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 5: I can tell you exactly eleven, okay every two, years

1065
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 5: eight months and eleven.

1066
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 1: Days and it hasn't been, easy but that's What he's wonderful.

1067
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 6: People you do have an extraordin an extraordinary, team including

1068
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 6: the leaders of Of, germany so past and. PRESENT i

1069
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 6: want to tell the audience there's there's the Movie killing

1070
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 6: For love and the book is a far far better

1071
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 6: thing by ensuring And Bill sizemore a far far better.

1072
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 6: Thing and for audience members who want to get, involved

1073
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 6: you can send an email To ALINA. A. L. E

1074
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 6: N a Dot, yarmofsky which is WHY A R M

1075
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 6: o S K why At governor Dot virginia dot. Gov

1076
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 6: or you can go to the website which Is governor

1077
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 6: Dot virginia dot. Gov That's governor Dot virginia dot. Gov

1078
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 6: and then this is the part of the show that

1079
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 6: we've become known. For IT'S i think everyone's favorite part

1080
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 6: of the. Show it's. Mine and this is a part

1081
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 6: of the show WHERE i get to thank our. Guests

1082
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 6: in this case of Course John, Grisham, john thanks for being.

1083
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 6: Here And Sheriff Harding Sheriff Chip harving Our Albumla. Accounting

1084
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 6: of course You yen's thanks for participating in this and

1085
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 6: sharing your thoughts and experience and educating our. AUDIENCE i

1086
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 6: want to turn it over to each of you just

1087
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 6: for brief closing, thoughts and of course we'll end with

1088
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 6: You yen, Anyway john final.

1089
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 7: Thoughts as far As, Yeah i've said it, before these

1090
01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 7: rawful conviction stories are always compelling and tempting from my

1091
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 7: point of view to write about, them to tell the fantastic,

1092
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 7: stories as sad as they, are but to also hopefully raise.

1093
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 7: Awareness HAD i not Written The Innocent man published it

1094
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 7: what thirteen years, ago there would not be The netflix series,

1095
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 7: now which is getting far more attention in the, book

1096
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 7: which is all. Good but as far as these stories,

1097
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 7: go you, Know i've gotten my top five innocent stories

1098
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 7: That i've went across in the past twelve, years And

1099
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 7: yens's case has got to be in the top. Three

1100
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 7: it's just such a compelling story of wrongful conviction in

1101
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 7: all the different ways the things that go wrong with our,

1102
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 7: system and also the relationship with his accuser is. FANTASTIC

1103
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 7: i hope there's a happy. Ending we believe it's going

1104
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 7: to be a happy ending because we're all working hard

1105
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 7: with a game plan to Get yen's out and then

1106
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 7: getting back To, germany And yenz AND i have this

1107
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 7: kind of a running gag that one day soon we're

1108
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 7: going to be drinking a beer together In munich At.

1109
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 6: Octoberfest i'm coming, Too and by the, way HE i

1110
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 6: have the same. Deal so you, KNOW i don't want

1111
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 6: to make you not feel, special but we've got the

1112
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 6: Same he's got you paying for, It.

1113
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 4: John we're all.

1114
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 7: Invited we're all invited To.

1115
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 6: Octoberfest that's, Right Sheriff harding final.

1116
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 9: Thoughts UNTIL i got involved in this kind of, WORK

1117
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 9: i always thought that you were found guilty beyond a reasonable.

1118
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 9: Doubt but it looks like In, america once you're found,

1119
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,919
Speaker 9: guilty to be found innocent or, pardon it almost has

1120
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 9: to be your innocent beyond a shadow of a.

1121
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 4: Doubt the standard is way too.

1122
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 9: High it's shameful for me to have fifty years in

1123
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 9: the justice system and to see the, pushback not just

1124
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 9: in this, case but Other i've read three or four

1125
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 9: hundred cases from prosecutors in law enforcement that don't man

1126
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 9: up and step up and admit they make mistakes and

1127
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 9: seek the. Truth and no one has ever held accountable

1128
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 9: in the first two hundred and fifty cases That Brandon garrett,

1129
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 9: examined in many cases prosecutors with hell exculpatory. Evidence so

1130
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 9: did law enforcement in that one single case that one

1131
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 9: officer ever go to trial or spend one day in.

1132
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 4: Jail so we can't police.

1133
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 9: Ourselves how do we anticipate the public's going to have

1134
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 9: the confidence in us to police?

1135
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 6: Them and, now saving the best for, last yends your final.

1136
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 4: Thoughts thank.

1137
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 2: YOU i think it's important for your audience.

1138
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: To realize that.

1139
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 2: They're estimated one hundred thousand rightly convicted prisoners.

1140
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 1: In The United. States that's a small, city And i'm

1141
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: far from the only. One i'm, not, really really so

1142
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 1: grateful to the three of, You John, GRISHAM Chi, partying

1143
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: And Jason.

1144
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 2: Flom for drawing attention to my.

1145
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 1: Case but let's not forget the other nine victims of

1146
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: mischaracters of. Justice one of the things THAT i really

1147
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: would hope for is that If i'm ever, RELEASED i

1148
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 1: can maybe help draw attention to all those other people

1149
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: and work towards systemic changes so that things like this

1150
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: don't happen to other people in the.

1151
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 2: Future it's give, us you, know something to think.

1152
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: About there's one hundred thousand innocent people in prison in

1153
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: The United. States somebody should be really bothered by. That

1154
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: AND i hope out your audience thinks about them as.

1155
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 1: Well AND i want to thank.

1156
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:06,479
Speaker 6: For today talk About thank, You John, Grisham Sheriff Chip

1157
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 6: harmon of Baub Blamare county And Yen serring ends thank.

1158
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 6: You don't forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever

1159
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 6: you get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a

1160
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 6: proud donor to The Ennescence, project AND i really hope

1161
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 6: you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and

1162
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 6: helping to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot

1163
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 6: org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd

1164
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 6: like to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin.

1165
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 6: Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME

1166
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 6: oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us

1167
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 6: On instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction.

1168
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 6: Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flamm is a production Of

1169
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 6: lava For Good podcasts association with Signal company number one