Speaker 1: Podcast starts now. Podcast starts now. Welcome to Stradio Lab
Speaker 1: of the podcast where two gay guys unpack the multifaceted
Speaker 1: and multicolor tapestry of straight culture while also yeah commenting
Speaker 1: in the medic capacity on the art form of podcasting
Speaker 1: and the idea of being a comedian turn podcaster who
Speaker 1: is or is not gay. Wow, you know that was
Speaker 1: such a full um explanation, and I'm so glad I
Speaker 1: got to hear it through you. You know, I feel
Speaker 1: like not to take credit. I carry this podcast intro
Speaker 1: on my back, and that's why I wanted to immediately
Speaker 1: go in. I I thought, I said, this is my
Speaker 1: this episode is my episode that this episode is my
Speaker 1: fight song, and I'm going to keep all this is
Speaker 1: very this is the part. This is like in Me
Speaker 1: Against the Music where Madonna goes and me, Yeah, this
Speaker 1: episode to me is where I is, where I finally shine.
Speaker 1: You know, forty eight episodes, it's been me going, it's
Speaker 1: just me, and then the forty nine episode you go
Speaker 1: and me yes, And I think that is so so powerful.
Speaker 1: It's powerful. It's also really kind of um, I would say,
Speaker 1: very problematic and put in a post free Brittany world
Speaker 1: that now I think it's my time. It's the time
Speaker 1: for Madonna to shine. I'm like, you know how, there's like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of like reconsidering the reputations of
Speaker 1: various women that were treated poorly by the media. I
Speaker 1: want to think of one that like was actually evil
Speaker 1: and be like, um, time to time to apologize to her.
Speaker 1: Like I'm trying to think who that would be, who
Speaker 1: was actually evil? I mean, I kind of like Madeline
Speaker 1: all like, I want to you know what I'm gonna do,
Speaker 1: Like Margaret Matcher, I'm gonna be like, you know what,
Speaker 1: if we're apologizing to Brittany, apologize to Margaret Thatcher, do
Speaker 1: you think m I A deserves an apology? Um? I
Speaker 1: have always lived for m I A, so she certainly
Speaker 1: does not deserve one from me. I have also always
Speaker 1: lived for m I A. But she also was remember
Speaker 1: that like her toxic era and not everyone here. I'm
Speaker 1: sure I guess we'll have a lot to say that this,
Speaker 1: But I truly think sometimes people who are eccentrics are
Speaker 1: there needs to be a certain capacity, there's a certain
Speaker 1: capacity for for um forgiveness, even if they do things
Speaker 1: that are technically unforgivable. Should I actually, you know what,
Speaker 1: I take all that back. Our guests has left the room,
Speaker 1: by the way, Yeah he must really really has. He's
Speaker 1: left the room. He left when he's empty. We're completely
Speaker 1: with a guest right back. Um, okay, wait, so sorry,
Speaker 1: I take what I said back. I don't think people
Speaker 1: should be forgiven for anything, and I think Margaret Thatcher
Speaker 1: is a slate queen. Um, here's what I want to
Speaker 1: talk about while we're talking about slay Queen George, you
Speaker 1: mentioned to me before this episode started it you've been
Speaker 1: rewatching Sex and the City and you've been liking it. Well,
Speaker 1: I've rewatched sexan City many times. I think Sex and
Speaker 1: City is one of those shows that in the past
Speaker 1: I always rewatched thinking it's going to be comforting, and
Speaker 1: I'm so blown away with how stupid it is that
Speaker 1: it makes me so viscerally angry that I actually, I
Speaker 1: really that I really struggle with it. And this time
Speaker 1: this was one of the first times I watched it,
Speaker 1: and it had the effect that I wanted to have
Speaker 1: until then. I got to the episode where Samantha literally
Speaker 1: like commits a hate crime and it's played for laughs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that you know, that's a that's a bad app
Speaker 1: What I'm mostly enjoying this time around is carries is
Speaker 1: is realizing how complex of a character Carry is. How
Speaker 1: so because she is the and I know this is
Speaker 1: such a cliche thing to be like, oh, she's the
Speaker 1: original anti hero or like oh, people like to when
Speaker 1: Tony Soprano was an anti hero, but not when a
Speaker 1: woman was. And you do realize she is actually like
Speaker 1: such an unlikable, terrible person with all the wrong priorities,
Speaker 1: who keeps hurting those around her because of her selfishness. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's bad. No I I just watched the episode where
Speaker 1: she brings Big two Aiden's country home while she's there
Speaker 1: with Aiden and they had previously broken up because she
Speaker 1: cheated on him with Big Yeah, she's a manipulator, she's psychotic,
Speaker 1: she's got a shopping addiction. She's well weird that you
Speaker 1: would include that she loves shoes, George, it's so much
Speaker 1: so that she sometimes cannot pay rent. If that's not
Speaker 1: an addiction, I don't know what it is. Well, you
Speaker 1: know she's labels in love. Do you think that one
Speaker 1: was something where like they tried to do the rule
Speaker 1: of threes and they just couldn't think of a third
Speaker 1: thing that started with an owl, like labels love and
Speaker 1: libel labels love in the botomy. Well, oh that's a
Speaker 1: nice It's actually not that bad. Yeah that works. Okay, Wait,
Speaker 1: George Sexonsity reboot is happening. You would get to play
Speaker 1: a character on it? What is your role? Okay? First
Speaker 1: of all, what if I played Samantha and it was
Speaker 1: just me in a wig? I would say, That's the
Speaker 1: first thing I can think of. The second thing is
Speaker 1: what if I played either Mario Cantone or uh the
Speaker 1: other gay guys like like, oh are they they got together?
Speaker 1: What if I played their younger? Third? I would love that.
Speaker 1: That's genius. So that's my second option. And then I
Speaker 1: also would love to play literally Jennifer Hudson's role in
Speaker 1: the first movie Louise from St. Louis. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: you would crush that role. Thank you. What do you
Speaker 1: want to would you play? I see myself as like
Speaker 1: Charlotte's nanny, like sort of like, um, yeah, like I'm
Speaker 1: maybe I'm a struggling actor and but and yeah, but
Speaker 1: I'm her nanny during the day. Here's the question, how
Speaker 1: old is Brady. Oh my god, he's okay. So what
Speaker 1: if Brady is gay and I play Brady's boyfriend? That
Speaker 1: actually would be my ideal role. I think that's iconic.
Speaker 1: And Brady, because he's like a redhead, would be played
Speaker 1: by Rupert Grint, Rupert Grant or kJ Appa and then
Speaker 1: and then I would play the boyfriend with a dark secret,
Speaker 1: which I'm fucking Samantha. I love that off screen always. Yeah, God,
Speaker 1: I have to say it really is. It's grim that
Speaker 1: that show is coming back anyway. Should we welcome um
Speaker 1: our guest? Yeah, let's welcome our guest. Um. Well, you
Speaker 1: know him from his role upcoming role as Samantha in
Speaker 1: the Sex City reboot. Please put your paws up for
Speaker 1: Jeremy o' harris. Actually, it's actually funny. I'm about to
Speaker 1: be on a podcast about Sex in the City. I
Speaker 1: don't listen to podcast so I've never listened to yours.
Speaker 1: Feel like I had to say that, UM to be
Speaker 1: completely transparent, um about because I don't know what I'm
Speaker 1: about to get myself into, but I um, I am
Speaker 1: about to be on a podcast it's about what Like,
Speaker 1: it's like rewriting Sex in the City as you would
Speaker 1: write it or whatever. It's like that's the sort of premise.
Speaker 1: My friend Laura came up with it, and um, I
Speaker 1: my pitch is that my my character and Sex in
Speaker 1: the City is Carrie Um because I think that what
Speaker 1: would happened in the reboot of Sex in the City
Speaker 1: is that someone else at like Vogue or the New
Speaker 1: York Day What what what was her bad? Who did
Speaker 1: she write for the New York Daily News or something?
Speaker 1: But my idea is that like New York wits over
Speaker 1: start like then'dn't didn't didn't don't like has like maybe
Speaker 1: like some eight oh weights, and it's like a little
Speaker 1: bit like you know, Secession e. And then like my
Speaker 1: voice comes on and I started talking about my day
Speaker 1: and how like me and my group of gay friends
Speaker 1: like have like run into these like old hags um
Speaker 1: that like that were like the original Sex and City girls.
Speaker 1: And it becomes this whole thing of like Carrie trying
Speaker 1: to reclaim her story from these young gay men who
Speaker 1: like have taken it um, the main game one being
Speaker 1: who originally wrote it. I mean, okay, wait, I have
Speaker 1: to say this is interesting because something I've realized during
Speaker 1: this rewatch is just how much Sex and the City
Speaker 1: is like gay men's view of heterosexuality, where they're like,
Speaker 1: it's literally like it's like gay men looking at straight
Speaker 1: people and being like, what's all this? Then like and
Speaker 1: then trying to like work it out on the page. Yes,
Speaker 1: well yeah, I mean early show of mine was that
Speaker 1: Live on broad Gay where it was just gay male
Speaker 1: comedians performing an episode of Sex in the City as
Speaker 1: if it's a piece of traumatic theater, because it was
Speaker 1: like this this show just you just it should be
Speaker 1: gay men's voices saying these words. It's also just like
Speaker 1: the way the cruelty gay men and women being so
Speaker 1: cruel to one another, both behind the scenes and in
Speaker 1: front of the camera. I also find it really curious
Speaker 1: and interesting in my own life to witness the ways
Speaker 1: in which I like. Conversely, i'm most I'm most often
Speaker 1: championed a lot by I've been champion in educational environments
Speaker 1: by a lot of white women. Um. Like, some of
Speaker 1: my favorite professors have been white women. UM. My biggest
Speaker 1: champions in the arena have been white women. Most people
Speaker 1: who work in the theater industry as literary managers or
Speaker 1: white women. Um. But in my professional world, it's been
Speaker 1: white straight men who have been the biggest champion in
Speaker 1: like film and television, right because they they run everything.
Speaker 1: And how that has then set out this weird professional
Speaker 1: dynamic where oftentimes I feel as though I'm on the
Speaker 1: other end in sort of our like fight for identitarian
Speaker 1: like supremacy, um or like minoritarian supremacy. I'm like, my
Speaker 1: black gay maleness is constantly in confrontation with like white womanhood. UM,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I I get hit with the
Speaker 1: most like sort of microaggressions from quote unquote Karen's in
Speaker 1: professional writing environments. UM. So I think that could be
Speaker 1: a really interesting thing to play with in Sex in
Speaker 1: the City, because I feel like there is a thing
Speaker 1: where like Samantha Charlotte and um Samantha Charlotte, Carry and
Speaker 1: Miranda are probably all confronted with some like, you know,
Speaker 1: gay man, possibly a gay man of color in their
Speaker 1: work environment who's gotten some promotion that they felt like
Speaker 1: they should have gotten, um, partially because George Floyd just happened.
Speaker 1: You know. They're like wait a second, like we just
Speaker 1: got we just meto it everyone, and now there's a
Speaker 1: like race me too, Like no, like that's not Okay,
Speaker 1: oh god, someone's gonna take this in camp. I mean,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's true. I think there's a real
Speaker 1: no no, no, I mean Sex and the City didn't
Speaker 1: tackle nine eleven. I would love to watch them attempts
Speaker 1: to tackle the post George Floyd. That would be just
Speaker 1: such a stumble for them that that would be heaven
Speaker 1: late to see. And they hired like first of all,
Speaker 1: it's like a pretty much all women writer's room except
Speaker 1: for um, god, what's his name the creator Darren Michael
Speaker 1: Patrick King, Michael Patrick King? Great, but I think it's
Speaker 1: now Michael Patrick King is in the at least in
Speaker 1: the photo that I saw. Um. Anyway, so it is
Speaker 1: actually women writing, which is interesting, women writing women's stories.
Speaker 1: I'll believe it when I say it, um, but but
Speaker 1: I do think it's actually as far as I know,
Speaker 1: because I'm aware of two of them, Like, it is
Speaker 1: women that actually, like are very well versed in politics,
Speaker 1: and in my instinct is that they will try to
Speaker 1: tackle those things. I mean, go off if you can
Speaker 1: do it. I mean, oh sorry, no, go ahead. I
Speaker 1: just I am really interested in more writer's rooms for
Speaker 1: gay series being full of women. Like. So it's Okay,
Speaker 1: so this is something I've been and I actually want
Speaker 1: to talk to you Jeremy about Nomad Land, because you
Speaker 1: made a face when I talked about it. I generally
Speaker 1: am interested in. Okay, you know how there's this dynamic
Speaker 1: that is that has been retroactively kind of and and
Speaker 1: correctly deemed problematic where it's like people that have more
Speaker 1: power in society kind of casting a gaze on people
Speaker 1: with less power. So you have like you know, the
Speaker 1: classic white anthropologists studying tribes and like a male filmmaker
Speaker 1: writing offensive characters to women whatever. And I think now
Speaker 1: with the trend is to essentially write what you know
Speaker 1: to be like oay, we're gonna hire gay people for
Speaker 1: gay stories, women for female stories. I'm really interested in
Speaker 1: basically like reversing that power dynamic. For with Nomad Lad,
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that Chloe Jao, who is Chinese,
Speaker 1: cast of a non American gaze on like Americana, and
Speaker 1: I thought that was like an interesting place to start.
Speaker 1: I mean where whether or not I like the end
Speaker 1: product is like a different story, but like I think
Speaker 1: having you know, a reverse sex in the city where
Speaker 1: a group of women right about like offense right a
Speaker 1: series of characters that are literally like all Mario Kanton
Speaker 1: could really be something thing. I thought it was really
Speaker 1: interesting to see how many gay men in this sort
Speaker 1: of like really emotionally stilted way had anger about Hanya
Speaker 1: writing A Little Life and it becoming so popular, becoming
Speaker 1: this thing, and it was so violent to gave men
Speaker 1: like who is this woman? And I'm like, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: have you missed all of Western cultures major portrayals of
Speaker 1: female characters because faggots wrote all of them? And guess what,
Speaker 1: Blanche Wad does not have a very good time inside
Speaker 1: of like, you know, the queer psycho drama of Tennessee Williams.
Speaker 1: And that's also okay because a lot of actresses I
Speaker 1: know love being inside of that psychodrama. Right And in
Speaker 1: the same way that I mean, the Highest Thing is
Speaker 1: such a great example of it. I think at this
Speaker 1: point it has become completely seen as true that A
Speaker 1: Little Life is bad among like a certain set of
Speaker 1: uh you know, educated and and and so really conscious. Amen,
Speaker 1: and I to this thing. Defy gay men. I think
Speaker 1: they're an angry game. Yes, they're mad that they did
Speaker 1: not have the juice to write that story and I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but that book is like truly, I mean she talked
Speaker 1: about someone who was like, I'm gonna snap. She like
Speaker 1: she started writing a book and she was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: you faggots are not ready for what's about that? Wow?
Speaker 1: I mean that's a powerful forward. I am the thing
Speaker 1: that this was so uninterested in. My thing is that
Speaker 1: I want every every minoritarian to have the mic right now,
Speaker 1: I also don't know that I want every minoritarian or
Speaker 1: every person who's from a minority group to feel like
Speaker 1: they have to like come out and only tell stories
Speaker 1: about the minority group, because oftentimes one of the powers
Speaker 1: of being in a minority group is being forced into
Speaker 1: a space of witnessing more often than um than engaging,
Speaker 1: right um. You're forced into a supporting role often in
Speaker 1: your real life, Like how many times does the gay
Speaker 1: man have you went to your straight friend and been like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is going on in my life, And before you
Speaker 1: can even finish telling telling something about your small relationships thing,
Speaker 1: they've taken the mic and given you a two hour
Speaker 1: soliloquy about all of the intricacies of heterosexuality and their
Speaker 1: own psycho drama. And I feel like now, because I
Speaker 1: haven't been able to process my own ship as well.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's more fun for me to process straight people ship,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Think about like a movie
Speaker 1: like American Psycho. Would I prefer to watch American Psycho
Speaker 1: or because it can tell you something a lot about
Speaker 1: like what it means to be a woman inside of
Speaker 1: a business. And think of how few women get to
Speaker 1: speak in that movie and what she's saying in that,
Speaker 1: you know, and which brings it back to my main point.
Speaker 1: Women should generally not speak in films. It's true. That's
Speaker 1: why I was rooting for Chloe. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: But you didn't like the movie. I don't know I
Speaker 1: had so I um, well, i'll tell you this. It
Speaker 1: used a lot. So it's about a woman, Francis McDormand,
Speaker 1: who um leaves her life behind and kind of decides
Speaker 1: to become a modern day No, she's about Francis mcdormant,
Speaker 1: I'm happy and thank God and starting and about articulated.
Speaker 1: I mean, after George said that he doesn't like movies
Speaker 1: about women, it was game over for Francis mcdormant. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just so she used a lot
Speaker 1: of real life nomads in supporting roles, and I found
Speaker 1: myself actually caring more about them than about the main
Speaker 1: character I was supposed to care about, which is Francis McDormand.
Speaker 1: I saw the movie at Venice Film Festival, and again
Speaker 1: I have to I have to say that, um, my
Speaker 1: opinions are often uh. I'm someone who like does not
Speaker 1: have static opinions, which is why I often am online
Speaker 1: yelling at critics who've seen movies once and then like
Speaker 1: say the most heinous things about them, because I feel
Speaker 1: like that's like an inside thing. Um. I don't think like, um,
Speaker 1: heinous takes need to be an outside thing necessarily, because
Speaker 1: something we know about subjective media is that meeting it
Speaker 1: at different moments at different times changes how we engage
Speaker 1: with it. Um. But I will say that because I
Speaker 1: was at Venice and had seen three movies that were
Speaker 1: like hyper narrative driven before I saw No matt Land,
Speaker 1: and yet was told by everyone, Oh, just wait, No
Speaker 1: matt Land is the greatest movie I've ever seen. I
Speaker 1: was expecting something that would excite my narrative hunger more
Speaker 1: uh deeper than this film did. And I think because
Speaker 1: I had read the long read of this that like
Speaker 1: inspired this movie. I felt less enthralled by the narrative
Speaker 1: thrust of it. And because I also am from a
Speaker 1: wildly working class and like one could say, poor family background,
Speaker 1: I am very protective of stories about poor people. And
Speaker 1: I felt as though I also wanted to see more um,
Speaker 1: more complexities or and know more about the lives of
Speaker 1: some of these real nomads. And I wanted to see
Speaker 1: um inside of the arc of the lead character. Right.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's like um, it wallowed in certain
Speaker 1: parts of their life, UM, certain details of their lives
Speaker 1: that I found um like pornographic um in ways that
Speaker 1: other aspects might not have. And again that's no shame
Speaker 1: on any anyone who made this movie or any stories
Speaker 1: they won't tell, or even if you liked it, I
Speaker 1: just think that it didn't work for me at the
Speaker 1: moment I met it. Yeah, no, it's and I have
Speaker 1: to say, I like, for all my complaints about it
Speaker 1: or more about like a politics maybe as a movie,
Speaker 1: I thought it was very well made. I think it's
Speaker 1: very exciting that she's getting attention, and I think I
Speaker 1: mean it's honestly kind of sad that she is now
Speaker 1: going to do a Marvel movie. But you know, God
Speaker 1: bless but um, yeah, I don't. There was literally like
Speaker 1: at one point she works at an Amazon fulfillment center
Speaker 1: and one and she literally is like, well, it's good money.
Speaker 1: It's like no, like actually literally, because I've read the
Speaker 1: what what you're talking about? Too? Literally part of that
Speaker 1: part of the the real story of these people that
Speaker 1: it's not good money. And that was an interesting thing
Speaker 1: in the film that was very frustrating for me because again,
Speaker 1: knowing how films are made, it was like, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: Amazon lets you shoot in their little buildings and with
Speaker 1: Zach so you can't What were you allowed to be
Speaker 1: as critical of that space as you would have been
Speaker 1: if they if you hadn't need that, if you had
Speaker 1: just been working at like flamm was on you know, um,
Speaker 1: they would have taken from fimilitude away from it. But
Speaker 1: what you have been more free to um, you know
Speaker 1: dig in. Yeah, sorry, Sam, I know you have. I'm
Speaker 1: going to change the topic because I know you haven't
Speaker 1: seen the movie and well, you know, it's funny. George.
Speaker 1: We you know, we bonded early on about having both
Speaker 1: listened to Slate's Culture gab Fest a lot, and now
Speaker 1: we are completely doing culture gab Fest. This is uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Stradio Lab. We're sort of post podcast, and
Speaker 1: yet this is sort of just a a sincere discussion
Speaker 1: of a film that is, you know, currently being talked about.
Speaker 1: I how far we've fallen. I'm disappointed. I'm sad, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, a big turning point recently is
Speaker 1: that I now I've turned away from my stand um
Speaker 1: of Stephen metcalf On Clate Unslade culture gap Fest, and
Speaker 1: I find myself more relating to um, to data and
Speaker 1: even at times Julia, I love the idea that like,
Speaker 1: I show up on the show and it becomes culture
Speaker 1: gap Fest, because I do think that it's like my
Speaker 1: main MOUs operandi. It's being like a culture gap fest
Speaker 1: for everyone. Like have you read this new book, it's
Speaker 1: my bron Test Pernell. You should check it out. I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think, Jeremy, I don't know if you ever
Speaker 1: listen to Culture gap Fest. But like the two women,
Speaker 1: the two white women that co hosted along with Steven
Speaker 1: meccap are exactly the women that you are describing as
Speaker 1: championing you. They are exactly the professors you would have
Speaker 1: that would be like oh my god, what an exciting
Speaker 1: new voice. But also they are exactly the same like
Speaker 1: microaggression thing, because they'll like I remember when they reviewed
Speaker 1: Billy on the Street and they were like, I just
Speaker 1: didn't get it, Like it just seemed kind of aggressive,
Speaker 1: and it was like, yeah, that's the point. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, you're so used to like people being
Speaker 1: extremely polite. There's like a different style of talking. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Recently Stephen has been doing a lot of I'm listening
Speaker 1: and learning. I'll just be like, well, you know, as
Speaker 1: a ultimately middle age, mostly heteronormative, even white male, I
Speaker 1: don't know if ultimately maybe what's more productive for me
Speaker 1: is to not speak. I mean, I wondered that about
Speaker 1: a lot of white people who have been saying that
Speaker 1: a lot and yet haven't quit their jobs. Like I'm
Speaker 1: happy you all haven't said that yet, because if so,
Speaker 1: you should have just given me an io your podcast, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if io is queer, but they like
Speaker 1: and again I don't know what pronounced io uses. UM,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna I'm gonna just gonna use neutral ones.
Speaker 1: Um they feel like queer adjacent to me um And
Speaker 1: if you were actually woke, you would have already um
Speaker 1: moved away from your post and given the mix to us,
Speaker 1: but you haven't, um, and I appreciate that because you
Speaker 1: and Io, Yeah, of course, but we're being honest. We've
Speaker 1: we've never lied about what this is. You know, it
Speaker 1: is a white men to be white men. This is
Speaker 1: what you know if you are a white gay man,
Speaker 1: just let your hair down and and and and welcome. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what I think though, just to to kind
Speaker 1: of push back on this a little bit, I actually think,
Speaker 1: um that based on our emails, a lot of our
Speaker 1: listeners are are women and and non binary people. This
Speaker 1: is purely anecdotally based on um the emails we get,
Speaker 1: and so I think what we're doing is performing as
Speaker 1: sort of auto like we are humiliating. We we their
Speaker 1: critique is baked into our existences where we are like,
Speaker 1: look at how fucking stupid white gays are, and then
Speaker 1: people listen to it and they're like, oh wow, there
Speaker 1: are clowns, you know, like they're kind of referential, and
Speaker 1: we're doing it in a way that's not like because
Speaker 1: I also hate the self aggrandizing way that you know,
Speaker 1: white gay men are like white gays it's like, we're
Speaker 1: not doing that. We are. We are living the critique.
Speaker 1: We are we are, we are living the critique. In fact,
Speaker 1: the more we speak, the more space we take up.
Speaker 1: That is space that has been in the in the
Speaker 1: same way that a space can be queer. That space
Speaker 1: has been critiqued. So at that point there's nothing within
Speaker 1: that space that we can do that is problematic because
Speaker 1: by virtue of existing, we have already covered all our bases.
Speaker 1: I mean in many ways, and this is obvious, but
Speaker 1: it's christ like. What we do is christ like, Like.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's hard to explain, but we
Speaker 1: just are being christ Like figures. Christ was the original
Speaker 1: person that would walk in and be like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: turned this water into wine. But ironically, like it was,
Speaker 1: it was not a big deal. It's more like to
Speaker 1: comment on religion and magic and like and the idea
Speaker 1: of like alcohol and nonalcoholic beverages in sort of our
Speaker 1: value system, And why is this more magical than just
Speaker 1: drinking water if you think about it. Yes, no, it's
Speaker 1: like we are doing the turning water into wine. But
Speaker 1: we turn a podcast into um, a bad podcast. We
Speaker 1: turned a good podcast into bad podcast. Can we take,
Speaker 1: we take beautiful guests, incredible topics, and we turned them
Speaker 1: all into nothing. Say we say, you think this is good,
Speaker 1: Actually it could be bad. I wonder as well, what
Speaker 1: makes a good podcast? Because I have yet to understand
Speaker 1: and now this is the question, and this is exactly
Speaker 1: the key to well two millions of dollars for one.
Speaker 1: But um, jeremy, what we were a dream podcast be
Speaker 1: as a listener, not a podcast. My dream part film? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, interested like a very good film made by
Speaker 1: Claire Denis. Oh my god, it's my best podcast is
Speaker 1: cleared Tony going back to Africa to make a film.
Speaker 1: I was literally going to say, as a joke that
Speaker 1: it would be both travid and are you serious? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm dead serious because I was just, Um, I've been
Speaker 1: trying to well, we don't have to go into this.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to kind of get through her films recently.
Speaker 1: Have you seen th bitch Old mccorner has passed. Um,
Speaker 1: So we had to go to the restroom is now.
Speaker 1: Um was because I had to pee, but also because
Speaker 1: I still haven't gotten over the fact that two white
Speaker 1: men decided to discuss the villiny of m I a while,
Speaker 1: I was, you know what, I'm actually really glad, thank
Speaker 1: you forgetting it back there. I just had to bring
Speaker 1: that up. Um, it was sitting heavy on my spirit.
Speaker 1: So so here's my thing. To me, I've I've never
Speaker 1: like looked into white people don't like am I. I
Speaker 1: always liked her music, so so that's kind of where
Speaker 1: I'm coming from. And so I was so when sam As,
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I don't know, I always liked
Speaker 1: am I. But then I was like, oh god, what
Speaker 1: if she said something that was like really terrible and
Speaker 1: I just don't know about it, so I should like
Speaker 1: what if she was literally like you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm a Holocaust denier or something. It's I don't want
Speaker 1: that on my back. So I was just like, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm gonna I'm gonna back to and then
Speaker 1: we never revisited genuinely. And again, hopefully someone will watch
Speaker 1: this and like footnote it in like in some response
Speaker 1: to be like, this is why Jeremy is problematic because
Speaker 1: he didn't remember this, but again, tell me and I'll
Speaker 1: remember it now. But I thought that the whole thing
Speaker 1: that delegitimized her was marrying a billionaire and uh and
Speaker 1: and eating truffle fis in that one interview, which was
Speaker 1: a set up by that wife in New York Time. Yes,
Speaker 1: well one, you know, I think we can all agree
Speaker 1: cancel culture has gone too far when you can't marry
Speaker 1: a billionaire without um having a beautiful career. Still, I
Speaker 1: think the anti billionaire sentiment is just running rampant, and
Speaker 1: it's disgusting, and it's on American frankly the way that
Speaker 1: it affected both am I and Grimes, two of my
Speaker 1: ultimately favorite musicians. I think I actually think, just like
Speaker 1: women like Mia Sir Sharon and women shouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to marry billionaires. Yeah, I mean also am I. The
Speaker 1: trouble devised thing was when she then tweeted out the
Speaker 1: writer's phone number, the sort of um, you know, bringing
Speaker 1: doxing to a whole new level, uh, popularizing it among many.
Speaker 1: I don't think I had heard of doxing until that moment,
Speaker 1: I mean, and ever since then, I've been addicted to
Speaker 1: the stuff. I love it, but I love part of
Speaker 1: and I love people who who really like like, if
Speaker 1: they're like, you've harmed me, I will run you to
Speaker 1: the ground and like, you know, nothing runs you to
Speaker 1: the ground, like getting five billion text messages from random people. Um. Again,
Speaker 1: I indicated about like successful women marrying billionaires because like,
Speaker 1: as we all know, successful women have a hard time, um,
Speaker 1: finding men who don't feel intimidated by them. Um. And
Speaker 1: so you know, you know, you see, like you know,
Speaker 1: masculinity coming to crisis when a woman just like is
Speaker 1: a manager and a footballer. You know, like imagine if
Speaker 1: she also is performing in the super Bowl. You know,
Speaker 1: like it takes a really big guy to do that.
Speaker 1: You have to be a billionaire like Jay z Elon
Speaker 1: Musk or whoever it was that she married at one time.
Speaker 1: And also the one that Adell married. You know, Oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that he was like very well, I
Speaker 1: was just gonna say that Serena Williams also married a billionaire.
Speaker 1: But I I don't know, I don't care. I mean,
Speaker 1: I as a successful gay man, I who you know,
Speaker 1: found myself constantly in relationships with men that would be
Speaker 1: going well until they came into some sort of like
Speaker 1: ego crisis. I had to start dating a man who
Speaker 1: had a ROLEXE. You were there when I started dating him? Wow, yes,
Speaker 1: I was. I did not know he wore what I
Speaker 1: do remember, and I was like, he's maintaining his power.
Speaker 1: Huh wow. Interesting Unfortunately that god remember. Yeah, so this
Speaker 1: Jeremy I ran into each other in the Athens airport
Speaker 1: after he was coming back from his wild um sex
Speaker 1: capadea in Athens. Yeah, and at this point it was
Speaker 1: like two years ago. Yes, we have to say that
Speaker 1: because now if we say that, people are like, whoa,
Speaker 1: Jeremy and George went to Athens in the middle of
Speaker 1: a globe, not not amid COVID, as the Daily Mail
Speaker 1: would say. Um, let's do our first. Okay, let's dove
Speaker 1: for a segment. Sam too late. So Jeremy, we're gonna
Speaker 1: ask you a series of rapid fire questions. You have
Speaker 1: to just pick A or B, and if you ask
Speaker 1: us any follow up questions, we'll get furious at you
Speaker 1: got it? Okay, George, you start, okay, Jeremy nomad Land
Speaker 1: or Disneyland neither okay, Jeremy Britney Spears or picking up
Speaker 1: some beers Britney Spears, World War or word press those well,
Speaker 1: how did those are late? I'm sorry, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: you can't. This is more of a data exercise. Um
Speaker 1: word dress okay, Um King Kong or bing Bang Bong
Speaker 1: Sing Sang Song Ding Dang Dong uk Hun Um b Jeremy, Um,
Speaker 1: Lars von Trier or Lars and the Real Girl, Lars
Speaker 1: one Trier, Lars one Jeremy quarterback, snack attack or hit
Speaker 1: it from the back. Um those are three now, right?
Speaker 1: Or is it like, yeah, you have the difficulty because
Speaker 1: you're doing such a good job. I would say, also,
Speaker 1: I want the readership to know that you are dressed
Speaker 1: like Lars and the Real Girl right now, Sam dress
Speaker 1: Sam dressed Lars margin the Real Girl. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a really good point. Sam does have the look of
Speaker 1: someone in a sun Dance comedy if anyone's listening. Okay,
Speaker 1: Jeremy growing pains or chaos rains, Chaos rains, Okay, Jeremy
Speaker 1: writing a Twitter thread or being declared legally dead. Being
Speaker 1: declared legally dead, and that's a wrap up that what
Speaker 1: I wouldn't give me declared legally dead. Wow, what a
Speaker 1: relief one day, I know. Um okay, wait, let's you
Speaker 1: know what. I think we need to just like, uh,
Speaker 1: get into the topic, into the topic. I think we
Speaker 1: need to get into the topic because you know, we
Speaker 1: got really deep into film corner and um and we
Speaker 1: you know, and then we talked about the billionaires and
Speaker 1: that was kind of fun. We were things were really
Speaker 1: starting to heat up here on the podcast. Can I
Speaker 1: ask you something before we continue? Wait one thing? Jeremy
Speaker 1: asked what it makes a good podcast? And my working
Speaker 1: theater theory is, um, oh my god, I want a
Speaker 1: book about the working theater, right, Jeremy, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. My um my theory is a podcast
Speaker 1: must be juicy. In order to be good. You gotta
Speaker 1: give the girl something to talk about. Sam. My question
Speaker 1: for you is, I want to get this out in
Speaker 1: the open before we continue. Are you mad that I
Speaker 1: spend too much time talking about movies? I am, I'm mad.
Speaker 1: I think you're mad. You know, I wouldn't say anger
Speaker 1: is the feeling. Um, maybe I feel some sort of
Speaker 1: missed opportunity. Um, you know, I guess I think I've
Speaker 1: dealed with a little fear. I think maybe our listeners
Speaker 1: come to this show, you know, to have a laugh. Um. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're smart, we're thoughtful, but mostly we're funny, and you know,
Speaker 1: to sort of commit fully to just the smart and thoughtful.
Speaker 1: I thought was, it's a dangerous move, it's a risk,
Speaker 1: and it's that's a really bad precedent. Wow, Okay, you're
Speaker 1: mad as much as devastated. I just think the norms
Speaker 1: of this podcast are breaking down at such a rate
Speaker 1: that I'm fearful of the future. Sure, to me, we
Speaker 1: reached our height when we have that kind of riff
Speaker 1: about how we are uh critiquing ourselves as we exist
Speaker 1: or whatever, And in my mind, that made up for
Speaker 1: everything else I've ever done in my life. Well, I
Speaker 1: think we can start on a clean slate. UM podcast
Speaker 1: starts now introduced the topic Now, okay, so the topic UM.
Speaker 1: You know, I thought it would be juicy. UM. So
Speaker 1: Jeremy and I went to high school together in Martinsville, Virginia, UM,
Speaker 1: and so I thought it would be fun to um
Speaker 1: talk both about our high school experience and high school
Speaker 1: in general. If you know, that's not working, But I
Speaker 1: think we have UM some things you see in there
Speaker 1: when I have been assigned the I I have been
Speaker 1: assigned the role of peer mediator. In Sam's words, I said,
Speaker 1: I said, you know, you, there's a lot of heavy
Speaker 1: lifting for you to do in this episode, So you know,
Speaker 1: kind of are you ready emotionally, psychically, and then he said, yes,
Speaker 1: but you expect you know, you have the role of
Speaker 1: peer mediator, so I will jump in whenever I feel
Speaker 1: like someone is being in any way um erased or
Speaker 1: marginalized or um rewritten. Even I also want to articulate
Speaker 1: to the to this podcast. I thought I was going
Speaker 1: on the Red Table today, so all of this other
Speaker 1: stuff feels like a weird It felt like it felt
Speaker 1: like you were leading me into a trap, and I
Speaker 1: was right. The Red Table is here, um, and I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I wish we had started straight away at the Red Table.
Speaker 1: And um, if we are the I feel as though
Speaker 1: you're more You're less pure mediator and more um Jada
Speaker 1: Pinkett Smith's mother, you know that? Or sure? Actually? Um, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm aware they both generally play mediation. Whenever Will and
Speaker 1: Jada are on the show together, it's a sort of
Speaker 1: a Will and Jada meet up, which gives people like,
Speaker 1: this is kind of a Will and Jade to meet up.
Speaker 1: What what what? What kind of things happened to you? Guys?
Speaker 1: Are well and Jeddie so well, I'm ready, I'm in character.
Speaker 1: I will be doing kind of a wildly offensive impression. Um,
Speaker 1: and I'm ready to a kain Okay, So like, where
Speaker 1: do we start, Jeremy? Okay, I feel like okay, I
Speaker 1: feel like I want to just put it all out
Speaker 1: on the table. And I would love to hear your
Speaker 1: experience of the one year we went to high school together.
Speaker 1: So we went to high school for one year. I
Speaker 1: moved there. Uh was that I moved their sophomore year
Speaker 1: the end of sophomore year? Yes? Was it? Was it
Speaker 1: sophomore and junior year? Or was it just because I
Speaker 1: went back to private school junior and senior year? Oh? Okay, wow,
Speaker 1: so we really packed a lot into this year, this
Speaker 1: sophomore year. Yes. So I moved to Martinsville, Virginia from
Speaker 1: Michigan and I meet you and uh, your crew, which
Speaker 1: I would describe as the like smart, weird, nerdy kids. Right,
Speaker 1: they were the popular kids, but also because they were
Speaker 1: wealthy and in the smart like anyone who lived in
Speaker 1: Mulberry or chat Moss, which is like the wealthy suburb, generally,
Speaker 1: those kids ended up in gifted and talented? How did
Speaker 1: how was that possible? Who knows? And somehow the kids
Speaker 1: who would have been at the private school I was
Speaker 1: at before the school. UM ended up at this in
Speaker 1: the gifted and talented program, separated from all of the
Speaker 1: black kids of generally UM and poor white kids from
Speaker 1: the community. So that was the click I was in
Speaker 1: because I was rare black and poor person who was
Speaker 1: in gifted and talented. Yeah. Um, And so I like
Speaker 1: start making friends with kind of your crew, uh, your circle,
Speaker 1: and and then the bullying begins, and then your circle
Speaker 1: was was mean to me. Okay, So now described from
Speaker 1: your end how that happened. My end, I have been
Speaker 1: going to this private school, and then my mother, because
Speaker 1: of like you know, a second divorce, UM, could no
Speaker 1: longer afford to keep me in that school. So I
Speaker 1: had to go to the public school. Where the first
Speaker 1: day of that public school my freshman year, I was
Speaker 1: like heinously beat up for reading Harry Potter at lunch, UM,
Speaker 1: because someone was like, what the funk you doing reading
Speaker 1: a book at lunch and I was like what, like
Speaker 1: slapped the book out of my hand, and then UM,
Speaker 1: I was like beat up or then I slapped him
Speaker 1: like a girl. Um, and then they were like, he
Speaker 1: hits like a girl. And then he talked me up,
Speaker 1: which I'm like, if I hit like a girl, why
Speaker 1: does it take three men to beat me up? Anyway? Whatever? Um.
Speaker 1: I am then sort of adopted by the seniors in
Speaker 1: the Gifted in Talent program, and they were like, why
Speaker 1: don't you gifted in talented? Like you seem smart? And
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, cool, And so then I got
Speaker 1: to be in like I thought to be in Gifted
Speaker 1: in Talented, they put me in there. And then because
Speaker 1: I was already friends with the seniors, the like rich
Speaker 1: cool kids like sort of welcomed me into their click begrudgingly,
Speaker 1: like I wasn't like actually there. The sophomore year was
Speaker 1: like my trial of doing it without the sort of
Speaker 1: shadow or like protection of these rich people or these
Speaker 1: older people, these seniors. And I always felt like my
Speaker 1: position was tenuous inside of that group. Um, but they
Speaker 1: were like my safety and the only sort of social
Speaker 1: dynamic I had. And then this very nice, very sweet,
Speaker 1: very white and fun boy shows up and he's in
Speaker 1: I think we had like biology together that was like
Speaker 1: our main class together, or the class where we sat
Speaker 1: next to each other, um, and like we had like
Speaker 1: a friendliness to each other. We like actually like we're
Speaker 1: congenial and then but then you were getting close to
Speaker 1: a lot of the people in the click um, and
Speaker 1: you would also inspired a crush in one girl in
Speaker 1: the click um, and the girls were my main safety.
Speaker 1: The girls were the ones who like really brought me
Speaker 1: in and um, I'm gonna change her name, but I
Speaker 1: want people to hear the sort of like lilt of
Speaker 1: her name. But it was like, you know, uh, Sarah
Speaker 1: Sarah Catherine um May Hall was like basically this girl's name,
Speaker 1: you know. So Sarah Catherine was telling everyone at one
Speaker 1: party at this one guy's house that she really um
Speaker 1: that she really liked Sam and thought he was really hot,
Speaker 1: and a couple of the other girls started saying he
Speaker 1: was really hot, and and I started I was feeling
Speaker 1: very on the out so this group at the time,
Speaker 1: and I felt really weird about being on the outs
Speaker 1: and not really know what to do. And in my
Speaker 1: mind it was like fight or flight. And I was
Speaker 1: literally like, wow, this white boys about to replace me
Speaker 1: and I will go back to being alone. And so
Speaker 1: I noticed because I, you know, should be on Big
Speaker 1: Brother or Survivor that uh, there was miss the frustration
Speaker 1: of mistrust on the on behalf of one of the
Speaker 1: white straight boys who had a crush on Sarah Sarah
Speaker 1: Catherine Um. And he was like, what the funk? And
Speaker 1: I was like, well, you know, I heard or I
Speaker 1: feel like Sam might be gay, like literally, just like
Speaker 1: a dumb thing a kid says, just like and I
Speaker 1: guess like something inside my spirit told me that that
Speaker 1: this boy was like me, you know um, and no
Speaker 1: one who I was gay than either or that you
Speaker 1: were not out. You were not out. I was not out.
Speaker 1: And they were like what And all the girls are like,
Speaker 1: no way, and all the guys are like do that
Speaker 1: makes so much sense? And I was like, yeah, guys,
Speaker 1: I'm due to you know. This is my way of
Speaker 1: getting him with the dudes. And was like, I think
Speaker 1: he is gay. And then someone was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that makes so much sense. And I was like you
Speaker 1: should ask him maybe again, not realizing that this is heinous,
Speaker 1: just thinking self protection and then they called sad and yeah,
Speaker 1: but the bullying began. Yeah, So I keep in mind
Speaker 1: I was new. I was like, had moved here, like
Speaker 1: you know, a month or two at this point, like
Speaker 1: very new, and it was all everyone was pretty unfriendly
Speaker 1: in that school, like it was like like I had
Speaker 1: moved like every two or three years, so I was
Speaker 1: used to it. But it was like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: a different um read of like clicky and like hard
Speaker 1: to break into. And um. So then I this night.
Speaker 1: I had called this house earlier because like we had
Speaker 1: a science project to the next day or something, and
Speaker 1: like I had a question about it. And so then
Speaker 1: I got the call back and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're gonna answer my question about the science project. And
Speaker 1: it was like, um are you gay, and like clearly
Speaker 1: on speakerphone with like everyone around, and I'm just like
Speaker 1: at home doing this fucking science project and I was
Speaker 1: just like um um um, Like I think I just
Speaker 1: said like no and then like hung up or something.
Speaker 1: But it was like very um bad. And then it
Speaker 1: was like like we were in a basement as well,
Speaker 1: Like you know, it was like that type of dark. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then your sister called us, and then my sister
Speaker 1: called back and was like fuck you guys, like kind
Speaker 1: of went off, and I again me, I was thinking
Speaker 1: that this meant nothing to Sam. It was just like
Speaker 1: a way of like pushing this again in my mind.
Speaker 1: He wasn't actually gay. It was like just a thing
Speaker 1: that was the worst thing you could say about a
Speaker 1: boy exactly in the South that would get everyone away
Speaker 1: from you. Um. Because you also weren't really like straight,
Speaker 1: you were very straight passing. I would say you didn't
Speaker 1: read gay, you know, so it was like an insane
Speaker 1: thing for me to say um or to guess um.
Speaker 1: And uh So then like a month later you left,
Speaker 1: you just like switch schools. But I didn't know what
Speaker 1: had happened. No, No, I stayed there. Over the next year,
Speaker 1: you just went No, I was still at school there.
Speaker 1: Oh I just switched school. No, I'm still there. Wow,
Speaker 1: you know what? I remember it like, yeah, you went
Speaker 1: to Prepriva school again. But it kept kind of happening,
Speaker 1: like it kept like it heightened because it was like
Speaker 1: first there was that call and then it was like
Speaker 1: kind of like spread around and then it was like okay.
Speaker 1: So I remember like one of our girl friends would
Speaker 1: be like like was like, oh, you should date Jeremy.
Speaker 1: You should date Jeremy, And I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like what is going on? And then like I went
Speaker 1: to like sitt like at your table at lunch where
Speaker 1: like that had been my spot, and like somebody like
Speaker 1: one of them was like said something like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: are you gonna take like a guide of a dance
Speaker 1: or something. There was something like an off rude comment,
Speaker 1: and I literally like I just didn't set my trade
Speaker 1: down and like walked to a table of people I
Speaker 1: didn't know and was like this, like fuck this. Um
Speaker 1: And for most from most of my life after that night,
Speaker 1: literally the thing I remembered was that right, like that
Speaker 1: thing I did that moment because I didn't care enough
Speaker 1: about whatever seed I planted to like water it, you know,
Speaker 1: it was just like a protection seed. Um And I
Speaker 1: was also like really trying to figure out how I
Speaker 1: was going to get back to like my the right
Speaker 1: school for me, which still wasn't any better technically. It
Speaker 1: was just like at least small fewer people, um And
Speaker 1: and I but I always felt fondly of Sam as
Speaker 1: like a nice person, And I felt bad about what
Speaker 1: I had done because like I remembered the anger in
Speaker 1: your sister's voice and recognized that that meant that you
Speaker 1: were really upset, um And so I was really shocked
Speaker 1: when I saw you a couple of years later in Chicago. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we had fully lost contact mm hmmm. And it
Speaker 1: was like at like three am or something, and I
Speaker 1: was like with my like gay friends. We had just
Speaker 1: kind of like Berlin or whatever. It was like after Pride. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was crazy and then we like chatted it
Speaker 1: and it was very nice, which was weird because we
Speaker 1: were kind of at odds at the end of Well,
Speaker 1: I think he didn't necessarily know that I had done this,
Speaker 1: because at the end of the conversation. Remember I was like, well,
Speaker 1: it was getting along so swimmingly, like it's so great,
Speaker 1: so funny, and I was like, oh my god, you
Speaker 1: want to know the craziest thing. And he was like what,
Speaker 1: It's like, it's so weird that you're gay because I
Speaker 1: one day I randomly said x y Z and then
Speaker 1: they called you and asked you, and he was like, wait,
Speaker 1: that was you. And I saw like battery that had
Speaker 1: been built between us over this hour long diner hang,
Speaker 1: like like explode in a moment. I didn't realized that
Speaker 1: that Sam. You only found out it was Jeremy later on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do kind of still thought he was your What
Speaker 1: was your what was it? What was the issue between
Speaker 1: the two of you, Like after this incident, I mean, Jeremy,
Speaker 1: you did not come forward as being the one to
Speaker 1: have initiated it, so you guys kept being friendly with
Speaker 1: each other. I think maybe I was mean to you
Speaker 1: after that, like yacause I knew it was you, but
Speaker 1: I was like, that group is like mean to me,
Speaker 1: so I'm just like icing them all out. Yes, I
Speaker 1: think that, like Sam, probably I had this idea that
Speaker 1: I was closer inside of the group than I was,
Speaker 1: and and I definitely felt like you were like forsona
Speaker 1: on grata as well in some ways, because if I
Speaker 1: became close to you, then that would give the group
Speaker 1: more impetus to invite you back in or even to
Speaker 1: see me in the same way that like I had
Speaker 1: inspired them to see you potentially, which I guess they
Speaker 1: already did since they were saying we should date. So
Speaker 1: I guess I was pretty clock Um, this really is
Speaker 1: just like this is like a microcosm of how gay
Speaker 1: men destroy one another. And to offer a Marxist analysis,
Speaker 1: if if the group of popular kids are literally like
Speaker 1: the heteropatriarchy, it's like basically you are both doing violence
Speaker 1: to each other and to yourselves in order to try
Speaker 1: it in some way fit in or like make yourself
Speaker 1: into a shape that is able to go into the
Speaker 1: hole that is created for you. Yes, yeah, it was. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's also an interesting thing about, like it was weird
Speaker 1: to see the people that were in that group, like
Speaker 1: a few of them went to college with me, and
Speaker 1: to see like the like they just have, like their
Speaker 1: views change over the four Like you know, one year
Speaker 1: into college and you're like, of course I love gay people,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, I actually remember you bullying me
Speaker 1: um for being perceived as gay two years ago. Um,
Speaker 1: So it was like extremely It's always weird that some
Speaker 1: of them are now like Republican like partners to like
Speaker 1: Republican candidates and stuff. Have you noticed that on facebooks?
Speaker 1: Or do do you not really see it? I kind
Speaker 1: of I'm out of contact with most of them. I'm
Speaker 1: very much so as well, But sometimes I'll go and
Speaker 1: do like weird name searches. I'm like, oh wait, you're
Speaker 1: married to that kind of person. While yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: few I like to keep up with on Facebook. Like
Speaker 1: I don't ever comment on their things, but I like
Speaker 1: to see what they're up to. I do feel like
Speaker 1: I part of you someone to come on here is
Speaker 1: to like publicly apologize for something that happened privately, UM,
Speaker 1: because I feel I've held since that day, UM, in
Speaker 1: that basement, I've held a lot of guilt around what
Speaker 1: I said and how I said it, UM, and still
Speaker 1: feel very confused about like the actual reason. Like I
Speaker 1: can theorize what made those things come out of my
Speaker 1: mouth and how they came out of my mouth, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't excuse the fact that I, UM did something
Speaker 1: that was really horrible to someone else. UM, And I yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm very very sorry truly UM. Well because it's I'm yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a really UM, it's a fucked up thing. And
Speaker 1: like it's funny to laugh about it sometimes to myself
Speaker 1: to think about the ways in which like I was
Speaker 1: like a manipulative mean girl inside of like a group
Speaker 1: that didn't want me in order to have some semblance
Speaker 1: of like stability in my life, UM and how like.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's like my life isn't a narrative,
Speaker 1: it's not a movie. Like there's no reason to like,
Speaker 1: um run away from it. When confronted with like a
Speaker 1: person that I could have been very very good friends
Speaker 1: with and could have been an ally with UM in adulthood,
Speaker 1: just say like it's funked up for me. Got to
Speaker 1: just say I am very sorry on the record, Well
Speaker 1: you know that all has long been forgiven. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's okay, I I'm I'm Also it's a bummer because
Speaker 1: I also remember how I felt then, and I remember
Speaker 1: like feeling similarly like you know, you gotta like I
Speaker 1: understood the social games and it was like, if I
Speaker 1: am too close to Jeremy, that will be a red
Speaker 1: flag to people, because if we're both the gay ones,
Speaker 1: that's like gonna be bad. So I should like keep
Speaker 1: him out in arms length. And uh so I also
Speaker 1: feel bad about how, you know, we could have been
Speaker 1: great friends and good allies to each other and it's
Speaker 1: too bad that we couldn't be. It's, uh, it's the
Speaker 1: that's that's what's growing up. But I don't know, growing
Speaker 1: up in like fucking conservative places make you psych catty,
Speaker 1: but also trauma builds character, you know, It's true. And
Speaker 1: podcast damn drag me. Well they they also they like
Speaker 1: it was they upheld their supremacy by uh preventing any
Speaker 1: kind of solidarity between the two of you. That was
Speaker 1: like a tool of the of the patriarchy. But you know,
Speaker 1: I also it's with my analysis today, but I am.
Speaker 1: I really am sticking to it. I think it's good
Speaker 1: and it's you know, I think now it's it's been
Speaker 1: long buried for the most part. I feel like that
Speaker 1: time we ran into that diner, into each other in
Speaker 1: that diner was like the beginning of like, you know,
Speaker 1: at this point, like a decade long series of like
Speaker 1: bumping into each other a few times a year at
Speaker 1: weird gay cities and like being like, whoa, what have
Speaker 1: you been up to? And our lives are just like
Speaker 1: um constantly um in parallel in a weird way yum,
Speaker 1: and it's it was. The second time I ran into
Speaker 1: you was the night I started dating um, a bisexual
Speaker 1: Russian um at like a weird um. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't think you had dinner. You really are a carry
Speaker 1: but like it was like, really I am a carry, um.
Speaker 1: But it was like it was really wild because like
Speaker 1: we were on the street and then like I ran
Speaker 1: into you and I was like freaking out because the
Speaker 1: last time I run into you, I saw you like
Speaker 1: any friendship we could have had explode in your eyes.
Speaker 1: And then I run into you again in the middle
Speaker 1: of like porch Wick at like four am, as like
Speaker 1: I'm on Molly and you probably are as well. Um.
Speaker 1: And then as I went back to this guy's house
Speaker 1: who I thought was straight, Um, I was just like like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you don't believe it, like I did
Speaker 1: this fund up thing and like blah blah blah, and
Speaker 1: he was gay. I do want to step my dick
Speaker 1: And then like that was how like that was like
Speaker 1: I feel like every time I ran into you something
Speaker 1: weird or would happen, if like some new weird thing
Speaker 1: would happen. Um, so yeah, I mean the last time
Speaker 1: we write we saw each other was on set and
Speaker 1: you played my director in the TV show. It's true?
Speaker 1: How fun? Can you believe? It? So weird? That's really
Speaker 1: fucking weird. Wait, so I wonder about this, like have
Speaker 1: you do you because I don't know if you like
Speaker 1: see yourself as like, uh, someone who minds your past
Speaker 1: for narratives, but like bringing it back to movie corner,
Speaker 1: how would you shape that narrative of your childhood trauma? If?
Speaker 1: And would I be an important character in it? Or
Speaker 1: would like how would that? How would high school the
Speaker 1: Sam Taggart movie it work for you? Would Francis McDormand
Speaker 1: play Jeremy, that's a good question. I feel like the
Speaker 1: movie honestly, the Martinsville, my Martinsville era, uh felt like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's kind of a good coming of age.
Speaker 1: Like I kind of needed like a bit of a
Speaker 1: wake up call as to like, I don't like people
Speaker 1: not liking you, Like I had kind of like hacked
Speaker 1: like my way through like you know, social circles every
Speaker 1: time we moved, and I was like this is like
Speaker 1: I'm good at this. I'm good at this. And then
Speaker 1: it was like, okay, what how do you respond when
Speaker 1: you're failing? And it was like kind of a nice
Speaker 1: um wake up call and taught me to like look
Speaker 1: inward and like self rely and uh so I I
Speaker 1: definitely like, yeah, I think I I think I grew
Speaker 1: from it, and I think the movie would be about
Speaker 1: that growth. Um. Not to sound um too lame, but
Speaker 1: I remember feeling very proud of myself come like junior
Speaker 1: year for being like well liked again, and I felt
Speaker 1: very in control of myself and uh just like I
Speaker 1: didn't like let those that like get me down really
Speaker 1: were when you were well liked, do you feel like
Speaker 1: you then there was pent up uh negativity and you
Speaker 1: where you were like, now I want to bully someone? Um, No,
Speaker 1: I don't think there was. Yeah, I maybe had like
Speaker 1: maybe keeping everyone in arms length too much, but not
Speaker 1: not wanting to bully people. Wait did you graduate at
Speaker 1: Martinsville High School? I did? That is so crazy to me.
Speaker 1: So it was literally just like deleted a part of me.
Speaker 1: Also like did that act and then repressed it so
Speaker 1: much that I just like changed the narrative and made
Speaker 1: it so that you like fully moved towns when I
Speaker 1: actually that like abscon did and like hit away in
Speaker 1: the private school in the corner. Yeah, yeah, that's wild,
Speaker 1: it really. I mean I have to say as someone
Speaker 1: who you know moved to a different country when I
Speaker 1: was like changes in If you go through any kind
Speaker 1: of life change that coincides with puberty in anyway, you're fucked.
Speaker 1: Even being static is like difficult enough. Did you did
Speaker 1: you ever bully anyone? George? Um, let's see. I mean
Speaker 1: I think I've talked about this before, but I I
Speaker 1: think I was raised in a family were like joking
Speaker 1: in almost a mean spirited way was a sign of affection,
Speaker 1: and I think I did. I do think I unintentionally
Speaker 1: believed people in ways. I didn't realize we're bullying because
Speaker 1: I was like, I distinctly remember this one girl when
Speaker 1: I was in This is when before we moved back
Speaker 1: to so I was living in New Jersey who like
Speaker 1: hated this one picture of herself, and I like, I
Speaker 1: can't remember exactly what I did, but it was like
Speaker 1: something along the lines of like printing out the picture
Speaker 1: and showing it Like it was something where it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: the joke is that she hates the picture and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna like do something funny with it or like send
Speaker 1: it to people or something. And in my mind I
Speaker 1: thought she would feel like she was in on the joke,
Speaker 1: but I was instead doing the most hurtful possible thing
Speaker 1: to a girl, like literally a you know, twelve year
Speaker 1: old girl who was like at the peak of insecurities
Speaker 1: about her appearance. But I just and I'm sure if
Speaker 1: someone did the simil a similar thing to me, I
Speaker 1: would also be hurt. But I there was something about, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, I was very fat growing up, and like
Speaker 1: that was always a source of everyone in my family
Speaker 1: would like joke about that, and I had to like
Speaker 1: decide I am in on the joke. Otherwise because I
Speaker 1: can't let it be a hurtful thing. I can't interpret
Speaker 1: it it as people like being mean to me. It's like,
Speaker 1: oh no, it's funny that I and then I would
Speaker 1: start like joking about my weight in school at school,
Speaker 1: and like I literally remember like at one point we
Speaker 1: were it was some kind of like language exercise and
Speaker 1: we were supposed to think of like three adjectives that
Speaker 1: describe us, and one of mine was fat. And it's like,
Speaker 1: but this was before like fat acceptance, Like it was
Speaker 1: like a derogatory thing. And I was like, yep, this
Speaker 1: is me reclaiming it. I'm reclaiming it. I'm reclaiming it
Speaker 1: like no one else could whatever. And so I thought
Speaker 1: that like that's how everyone thought. So I thought like
Speaker 1: it was okay to make yeah. But so so, yes,
Speaker 1: I mean I'm sure that was bullying, um in a sense.
Speaker 1: And I think I did that a lot. I think
Speaker 1: I like have a way of like seeing what people's
Speaker 1: weaknesses are and thinking it's a form of intimacy to
Speaker 1: point them out. Um. But but yes, I do think
Speaker 1: I acted in ways that we're not good. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just think I mean I have to just rely on
Speaker 1: the the you know, the old truism that hurt people,
Speaker 1: hurt people literally about the same and I would, but
Speaker 1: it is true. I mean, and I will just say
Speaker 1: that like Sam had a preter natural like a sense
Speaker 1: of light in his eyes. Um, when he showed up
Speaker 1: at our school, and um, I felt like he had
Speaker 1: so much light that it could it was fine to
Speaker 1: try to dim a little bit, right, which is right.
Speaker 1: But also that was my eye, um, because my eyes
Speaker 1: were pitch black. Um, Sam should read our final segment.
Speaker 1: I do. I mean, yeah, I think we should. This
Speaker 1: has gone on with the second time for people like
Speaker 1: is this how you make a bad podcast? Just like
Speaker 1: this is where we went online and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I heard you that one time. Should you
Speaker 1: do with sequence of leads with ex boyfriends? We've done
Speaker 1: one with literally someone who Sam hooked up with, who
Speaker 1: is like in his words of Kinsey one married to
Speaker 1: a woman, and we unpacked him hooking up with Sam
Speaker 1: on the pod, which is honestly one of my favorite episodes.
Speaker 1: I agree, And I think this as I mean, he's
Speaker 1: like wild entanglements, it must be unpacked publicly. Yeah, well, George,
Speaker 1: we're going to get someone for joy we need to
Speaker 1: get someone for me because I do a little if
Speaker 1: our intense sexual attraction to each other. So I my
Speaker 1: first well not first memory of view, no, actually yes,
Speaker 1: maybe first memory of you is in Fire Island. I
Speaker 1: was wearing a a women's jumpsuit from Nords, from rack Um,
Speaker 1: and I was I had had like I'm very much
Speaker 1: a lightweight when it comes to anything other than alcohol,
Speaker 1: and I had had like maybe a hit of a
Speaker 1: vpen or something, and I was just like I was
Speaker 1: like acting so mysterious and like sensual, and I was
Speaker 1: just kind of like, oh hey, George, and I was
Speaker 1: kind of like city I was. I was distinctly remember
Speaker 1: thinking to myself, what I'm doing right now is giving
Speaker 1: him of my attention like enough where like obviously I
Speaker 1: we are having an interaction, but also like he knows
Speaker 1: at any given point I could turn around and not
Speaker 1: pay attention. Actually dynamic I need for any man all
Speaker 1: head over heels in love. And to be fair, you
Speaker 1: were like you were your energy was you were not
Speaker 1: saying at our house, but you would like come through
Speaker 1: whenever you would be, like you know, taking a break
Speaker 1: from whatever else you were doing. And it was just
Speaker 1: it was very much like I've been because my sister's doesn't.
Speaker 1: We've been watching one division. It was very much the
Speaker 1: character of Catherine Han, who's the neighbor You're like, you
Speaker 1: just like would knock on the door and me like,
Speaker 1: what's going on here? And I knew, you know, we
Speaker 1: had mutual friends, and I knew who you were, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to come across was cool, and I think
Speaker 1: I almost overdid a twin extent where I was like,
Speaker 1: oh hey, But I do remember very very clearly you
Speaker 1: saying I had Leo energy, which I know I've mentioned
Speaker 1: to you in the past. Yes, yes, yes, yes, you
Speaker 1: also had great eyebrows and are an ethnic white. I
Speaker 1: am an ethnic white, and I do. I have to
Speaker 1: say one of the main parts of my life is
Speaker 1: when I realized I needed to stop tweezing my eyebrows
Speaker 1: because I'm stronger when I have my full eyebrows. And
Speaker 1: I think it on Fire Island, anyone who's not like
Speaker 1: a blonde white person is just like already getting pluses
Speaker 1: in my book, Um, because there are so many people
Speaker 1: who are like ethnic at all. To be an ethnic white,
Speaker 1: it's like WHOA, So you're in the top tier of Fire.
Speaker 1: Um it is. I mean what passes as ethnic on
Speaker 1: Fire Island is depressing slow bar. I mean, I do
Speaker 1: still want you to three in me and tell me
Speaker 1: how much a freak you have in because I think
Speaker 1: you have a little bit. I don't think I think
Speaker 1: I have. You were half white and half black, in
Speaker 1: certain context, I think they would believe you. In fact,
Speaker 1: zo that was one of the things that Zoe asked
Speaker 1: me when I did her show, was like people was
Speaker 1: because people Alex English Ones told me he thought I
Speaker 1: was half that I was mixed in some way, and
Speaker 1: and Chili was sharp. I think I was with the
Speaker 1: two of them, and they both said it. But I
Speaker 1: think I wouldn't be surprised if I had like Middle
Speaker 1: Eastern heritage. I think that's what it is. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's I don't think it's black, but I don't black.
Speaker 1: Would you feel more or less excited about your heritage? Um,
Speaker 1: I mean I would feel more. I would be more
Speaker 1: excited in the sense that like I had. Okay, so,
Speaker 1: growing when I was living in America, I always thought
Speaker 1: yes or no, no, But but I have. So here's
Speaker 1: the context of this. I always thought when I was
Speaker 1: in America that it was so cool in my young
Speaker 1: mind that like people had heritage from all these different
Speaker 1: places and all I could say was that I was
Speaker 1: a Greek. So in that sense, it will be a
Speaker 1: long delayed um what's the word gratification that like, oh
Speaker 1: I have something interesting about me, I'm not just one thing. Um.
Speaker 1: But overall, he would not be excited to be blacked. No,
Speaker 1: I would, I will say, I will, I would. I know?
Speaker 1: You know, what did you, Jeremy? Did you see this
Speaker 1: person on Twitter that was like accused of this, right,
Speaker 1: this like food writer was accused of flying about her
Speaker 1: race and then she she was like, no, I've always
Speaker 1: been open about being white. But then she spent like
Speaker 1: forty eight hours like tweeting about how she was white,
Speaker 1: and everyone's like I was like, we get Like it
Speaker 1: was literally like, okay, I'm sorry this person said this
Speaker 1: about you was uncalled for, but you also don't need
Speaker 1: to spend forty eight hours being like I have always
Speaker 1: been out but about being why. So that's why I hesitated,
Speaker 1: because I was like, yes, it would be exciting, anything
Speaker 1: would be exciting in terms of fighting out something of
Speaker 1: my heritage. But I also can't be one of those
Speaker 1: people that then discovers it and then suddenly it's like
Speaker 1: holding a press conference where he identify his blood. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, that would be so huge free though, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, well, you know, I mean, for me, one
Speaker 1: of the most glamorous people is someone who is half Greek,
Speaker 1: half black. Um Molina Matukas oh Mollina, because it's half
Speaker 1: Greek half flack. I guess that makes sense with mud.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there is. I'm sure it's not
Speaker 1: exactly fifty fifty. But in my mind one of her
Speaker 1: parents is mostly black and one of her parents is
Speaker 1: mostly Greek or something, So that's I have the Greek like,
Speaker 1: has Greek society really taking her on, like it's Queen
Speaker 1: and Slin like played in all the movies. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know it's the new because remember how my
Speaker 1: big fat Greek wedding is. Yes, in Greece, it's like
Speaker 1: she is a goddess. Well, I'll see this. I don't
Speaker 1: think Molina is at me of our Dallars level in
Speaker 1: terms of reception from the Greek community. Um, I personally spearhead.
Speaker 1: You should spearheaded with the Greek community. You go back
Speaker 1: often like guys, we are really in the middle of
Speaker 1: the culture right now. No, it's it's mind. New thing
Speaker 1: is yeah, mine, new thing is that Queen and Slim
Speaker 1: is a Greek movie tragedy. Yeah that's true. It's true.
Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, film corners back. Um, wait, we have
Speaker 1: to do our finals, like, okay, fine, this is by
Speaker 1: far our longest. This is an I love it. Wait
Speaker 1: okay j Our final segment is called Shoutouts, and it
Speaker 1: is a tribute to one of the richest and most
Speaker 1: kind of productive parts of straight culture, which is the
Speaker 1: radio shout out. Imagine you're at TRL giving a shout
Speaker 1: out to your boys and girls back home, um or
Speaker 1: calling it. We'll Sam and I will do them first
Speaker 1: and then and then you can go. So, um, you
Speaker 1: know what, Sam, I'll this is truly UM. I have
Speaker 1: nothing prepared, but I'm I'm going to go for it.
Speaker 1: Are you ready? Yes, I'm ready. What's up, listeners. I
Speaker 1: want to give a quick shout out to my younger self.
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about you a lot during this episode,
Speaker 1: and honey, you really were not working with much, but
Speaker 1: you made it work. And now I'm out of place
Speaker 1: where I'm maybe only six irredeemable and that is iconic
Speaker 1: and not a lot of people can say that. And
Speaker 1: I will keep working to make you proud, Um, and
Speaker 1: I will, in your honor stop bullying people unintentionally. Um.
Speaker 1: That was amazing. And that's also like the end of
Speaker 1: every drag Race season, holding up the image of your
Speaker 1: younger self. That's exactly what that was. Um okay, um,
Speaker 1: what's up listeners. UM. I just want to give a
Speaker 1: huge shout out to my blind optimism. I am, you know,
Speaker 1: in one of the darkest times of my life, and
Speaker 1: you know what, the sun was shining today and I
Speaker 1: was like, whatever's gonna be fine? Like, I can't help
Speaker 1: but think this summer is gonna rule. Spring is gonna
Speaker 1: pop off soon, We're all gonna be vaccinated and making out.
Speaker 1: I simply cannot wait. I think, money, friendship, love, everything
Speaker 1: is gonna be um flowing everything coming about that. So
Speaker 1: I love you, my blind optimism. I've never been wrong before. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do my shout out. I do have to say
Speaker 1: that last night I cried while watching We Did you Know?
Speaker 1: Like I went down a YouTube hole with my roommate
Speaker 1: and my friend Moses and I we we got on
Speaker 1: Glee and I was like, happy that ever set Roses
Speaker 1: Turn from Glee? Um, and they were like no, and
Speaker 1: I who sings it? Kurt does And it's Kurt's turn
Speaker 1: because it's about him. Actually this is important. Actually I'm
Speaker 1: gonna give my shout out to this. Um okay, um,
Speaker 1: hey guys, um, this is Jamio Harris here. I really
Speaker 1: want to give a shout out to multiple things today,
Speaker 1: fair stuff. I want to even shout out to Kurt
Speaker 1: from Glue for living free in his subconscious and telling
Speaker 1: his dad through the beauty of Sondheim and the song
Speaker 1: Roses Turn that like maybe there was no way for
Speaker 1: him to hide the fact that he was queer, and
Speaker 1: maybe it was time for Kurt to take center stage
Speaker 1: unlike Rachel Berry and actually seeing from his heart. Um
Speaker 1: that was. And again I watched the last Sunday and
Speaker 1: maybe me cry. Second up, I'm gonna give a shout
Speaker 1: out to my like unerring sense of self preservation. Um,
Speaker 1: I am a Slytherin, and I have to recognize that
Speaker 1: being a Slytherin is the reason why I'm on a
Speaker 1: podcast right now, is the reason I could afford my
Speaker 1: rent right now, and it's the reason I didn't die
Speaker 1: in Martins or Virginia. And although I hurt people along
Speaker 1: the way, I am Gilder. That part of me existed, um,
Speaker 1: because it got me here and able to apologize. I'm wow.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, it's very powerful. And and the gleek you're
Speaker 1: also holding your mic right up to your mouth and
Speaker 1: it was distorting the sound. I mean, death grips found dead.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I had to hold the mic. Well,
Speaker 1: Jeremy found it, like and I think this is a
Speaker 1: beautiful episode. It's so good. Thank you guys. So it
Speaker 1: sounds crazy crazy, but it'll be good. It'll be good. Um,
Speaker 1: Jeremy truly what a what an absolute delight. Yeah, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for doing the pod. Thank you guys
Speaker 1: for having me. Okay, I'm gonna go, my friends, how
Speaker 1: do you feel? I feel good.