WEBVTT - "High School" w/ Jeremy O. Harris 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.480 Podcast starts now. Podcast starts now. Welcome to Stradio Lab 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:27.240 of the podcast where two gay guys unpack the multifaceted 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:32.280 and multicolor tapestry of straight culture while also yeah commenting 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.440 in the medic capacity on the art form of podcasting 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.920 and the idea of being a comedian turn podcaster who 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:44.280 is or is not gay. Wow, you know that was 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.400 such a full um explanation, and I'm so glad I 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:49.760 got to hear it through you. You know, I feel 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.560 like not to take credit. I carry this podcast intro 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.360 on my back, and that's why I wanted to immediately 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.720 go in. I I thought, I said, this is my 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.840 this episode is my episode that this episode is my 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.760 fight song, and I'm going to keep all this is 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.560 very this is the part. This is like in Me 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.479 Against the Music where Madonna goes and me, Yeah, this 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.520 episode to me is where I is, where I finally shine. 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.560 You know, forty eight episodes, it's been me going, it's 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.959 just me, and then the forty nine episode you go 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.760 and me yes, And I think that is so so powerful. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.720 It's powerful. It's also really kind of um, I would say, 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:31.959 very problematic and put in a post free Brittany world 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.560 that now I think it's my time. It's the time 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.920 for Madonna to shine. I'm like, you know how, there's like, um, 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.360 you know, we're kind of like reconsidering the reputations of 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.400 various women that were treated poorly by the media. I 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.920 want to think of one that like was actually evil 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.040 and be like, um, time to time to apologize to her. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.320 Like I'm trying to think who that would be, who 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.040 was actually evil? I mean, I kind of like Madeline 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.160 all like, I want to you know what I'm gonna do, 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.400 Like Margaret Matcher, I'm gonna be like, you know what, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:08.480 if we're apologizing to Brittany, apologize to Margaret Thatcher, do 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:13.240 you think m I A deserves an apology? Um? I 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.960 have always lived for m I A, so she certainly 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.640 does not deserve one from me. I have also always 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.880 lived for m I A. But she also was remember 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:27.760 that like her toxic era and not everyone here. I'm 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:29.520 sure I guess we'll have a lot to say that this, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:36.040 But I truly think sometimes people who are eccentrics are 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.919 there needs to be a certain capacity, there's a certain 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.760 capacity for for um forgiveness, even if they do things 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.560 that are technically unforgivable. Should I actually, you know what, 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.800 I take all that back. Our guests has left the room, 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.919 by the way, Yeah he must really really has. He's 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.800 left the room. He left when he's empty. We're completely 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:05.840 with a guest right back. Um, okay, wait, so sorry, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.120 I take what I said back. I don't think people 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.760 should be forgiven for anything, and I think Margaret Thatcher 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.080 is a slate queen. Um, here's what I want to 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.280 talk about while we're talking about slay Queen George, you 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.799 mentioned to me before this episode started it you've been 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.040 rewatching Sex and the City and you've been liking it. Well, 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.480 I've rewatched sexan City many times. I think Sex and 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.080 City is one of those shows that in the past 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.280 I always rewatched thinking it's going to be comforting, and 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.760 I'm so blown away with how stupid it is that 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.120 it makes me so viscerally angry that I actually, I 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.080 really that I really struggle with it. And this time 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.200 this was one of the first times I watched it, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.400 and it had the effect that I wanted to have 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.080 until then. I got to the episode where Samantha literally 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.600 like commits a hate crime and it's played for laughs. Yeah, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.000 well that you know, that's a that's a bad app 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:00.280 What I'm mostly enjoying this time around is carries is 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.880 is realizing how complex of a character Carry is. How 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.120 so because she is the and I know this is 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.600 such a cliche thing to be like, oh, she's the 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.120 original anti hero or like oh, people like to when 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.720 Tony Soprano was an anti hero, but not when a 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.720 woman was. And you do realize she is actually like 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.560 such an unlikable, terrible person with all the wrong priorities, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.799 who keeps hurting those around her because of her selfishness. Yeah, yeah, 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.440 she's bad. No I I just watched the episode where 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:35.520 she brings Big two Aiden's country home while she's there 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.800 with Aiden and they had previously broken up because she 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:44.040 cheated on him with Big Yeah, she's a manipulator, she's psychotic, 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.479 she's got a shopping addiction. She's well weird that you 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.200 would include that she loves shoes, George, it's so much 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.960 so that she sometimes cannot pay rent. If that's not 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:56.880 an addiction, I don't know what it is. Well, you 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.320 know she's labels in love. Do you think that one 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.080 was something where like they tried to do the rule 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:03.800 of threes and they just couldn't think of a third 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:08.600 thing that started with an owl, like labels love and 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:14.720 libel labels love in the botomy. Well, oh that's a 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.080 nice It's actually not that bad. Yeah that works. Okay, Wait, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.880 George Sexonsity reboot is happening. You would get to play 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.039 a character on it? What is your role? Okay? First 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:26.599 of all, what if I played Samantha and it was 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.240 just me in a wig? I would say, That's the 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.720 first thing I can think of. The second thing is 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.359 what if I played either Mario Cantone or uh the 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:41.400 other gay guys like like, oh are they they got together? 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.719 What if I played their younger? Third? I would love that. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.479 That's genius. So that's my second option. And then I 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.919 also would love to play literally Jennifer Hudson's role in 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.360 the first movie Louise from St. Louis. Yeah, I think 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.120 you would crush that role. Thank you. What do you 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.760 want to would you play? I see myself as like 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:09.400 Charlotte's nanny, like sort of like, um, yeah, like I'm 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.000 maybe I'm a struggling actor and but and yeah, but 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.920 I'm her nanny during the day. Here's the question, how 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:23.440 old is Brady. Oh my god, he's okay. So what 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.159 if Brady is gay and I play Brady's boyfriend? That 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.000 actually would be my ideal role. I think that's iconic. 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.480 And Brady, because he's like a redhead, would be played 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:38.360 by Rupert Grint, Rupert Grant or kJ Appa and then 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.120 and then I would play the boyfriend with a dark secret, 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:49.200 which I'm fucking Samantha. I love that off screen always. Yeah, God, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.400 I have to say it really is. It's grim that 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.960 that show is coming back anyway. Should we welcome um 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.520 our guest? Yeah, let's welcome our guest. Um. Well, you 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.440 know him from his role upcoming role as Samantha in 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.839 the Sex City reboot. Please put your paws up for 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:11.760 Jeremy o' harris. Actually, it's actually funny. I'm about to 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:13.800 be on a podcast about Sex in the City. I 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.720 don't listen to podcast so I've never listened to yours. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.400 Feel like I had to say that, UM to be 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.240 completely transparent, um about because I don't know what I'm 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:26.480 about to get myself into, but I um, I am 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.760 about to be on a podcast it's about what Like, 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.160 it's like rewriting Sex in the City as you would 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.520 write it or whatever. It's like that's the sort of premise. 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.840 My friend Laura came up with it, and um, I 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.960 my pitch is that my my character and Sex in 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:47.880 the City is Carrie Um because I think that what 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.440 would happened in the reboot of Sex in the City 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.800 is that someone else at like Vogue or the New 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:55.640 York Day What what what was her bad? Who did 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:57.360 she write for the New York Daily News or something? 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.440 But my idea is that like New York wits over 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.160 start like then'dn't didn't didn't don't like has like maybe 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:08.520 like some eight oh weights, and it's like a little 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.360 bit like you know, Secession e. And then like my 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.480 voice comes on and I started talking about my day 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.720 and how like me and my group of gay friends 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.440 like have like run into these like old hags um 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.960 that like that were like the original Sex and City girls. 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.000 And it becomes this whole thing of like Carrie trying 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.280 to reclaim her story from these young gay men who 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.200 like have taken it um, the main game one being 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.080 who originally wrote it. I mean, okay, wait, I have 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.840 to say this is interesting because something I've realized during 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.480 this rewatch is just how much Sex and the City 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:50.960 is like gay men's view of heterosexuality, where they're like, 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.040 it's literally like it's like gay men looking at straight 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.560 people and being like, what's all this? Then like and 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.559 then trying to like work it out on the page. Yes, 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:06.280 well yeah, I mean early show of mine was that 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.160 Live on broad Gay where it was just gay male 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.400 comedians performing an episode of Sex in the City as 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.960 if it's a piece of traumatic theater, because it was 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.120 like this this show just you just it should be 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:22.320 gay men's voices saying these words. It's also just like 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.719 the way the cruelty gay men and women being so 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.680 cruel to one another, both behind the scenes and in 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.760 front of the camera. I also find it really curious 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.400 and interesting in my own life to witness the ways 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.320 in which I like. Conversely, i'm most I'm most often 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.600 championed a lot by I've been champion in educational environments 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.240 by a lot of white women. Um. Like, some of 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.680 my favorite professors have been white women. UM. My biggest 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.840 champions in the arena have been white women. Most people 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.800 who work in the theater industry as literary managers or 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.480 white women. Um. But in my professional world, it's been 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.800 white straight men who have been the biggest champion in 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.520 like film and television, right because they they run everything. 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.080 And how that has then set out this weird professional 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.080 dynamic where oftentimes I feel as though I'm on the 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:21.920 other end in sort of our like fight for identitarian 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:27.360 like supremacy, um or like minoritarian supremacy. I'm like, my 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:34.080 black gay maleness is constantly in confrontation with like white womanhood. UM, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.760 and I feel like I I get hit with the 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.000 most like sort of microaggressions from quote unquote Karen's in 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.319 professional writing environments. UM. So I think that could be 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.600 a really interesting thing to play with in Sex in 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:49.959 the City, because I feel like there is a thing 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:55.680 where like Samantha Charlotte and um Samantha Charlotte, Carry and 0:10:56.200 --> 0:11:00.400 Miranda are probably all confronted with some like, you know, 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.839 gay man, possibly a gay man of color in their 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.880 work environment who's gotten some promotion that they felt like 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:12.000 they should have gotten, um, partially because George Floyd just happened. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.080 You know. They're like wait a second, like we just 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.480 got we just meto it everyone, and now there's a 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.040 like race me too, Like no, like that's not Okay, 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.800 oh god, someone's gonna take this in camp. I mean, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:25.880 but I mean it's true. I think there's a real 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.839 no no, no, I mean Sex and the City didn't 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.800 tackle nine eleven. I would love to watch them attempts 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.000 to tackle the post George Floyd. That would be just 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.680 such a stumble for them that that would be heaven 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:44.160 late to see. And they hired like first of all, 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.120 it's like a pretty much all women writer's room except 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:52.480 for um, god, what's his name the creator Darren Michael 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.160 Patrick King, Michael Patrick King? Great, but I think it's 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.360 now Michael Patrick King is in the at least in 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.840 the photo that I saw. Um. Anyway, so it is 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.960 actually women writing, which is interesting, women writing women's stories. 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.600 I'll believe it when I say it, um, but but 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.200 I do think it's actually as far as I know, 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:15.959 because I'm aware of two of them, Like, it is 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:20.880 women that actually, like are very well versed in politics, 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.440 and in my instinct is that they will try to 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.480 tackle those things. I mean, go off if you can 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:33.120 do it. I mean, oh sorry, no, go ahead. I 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.920 just I am really interested in more writer's rooms for 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:42.680 gay series being full of women. Like. So it's Okay, 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.360 so this is something I've been and I actually want 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.960 to talk to you Jeremy about Nomad Land, because you 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.960 made a face when I talked about it. I generally 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:56.200 am interested in. Okay, you know how there's this dynamic 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.840 that is that has been retroactively kind of and and 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:04.240 correctly deemed problematic where it's like people that have more 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:08.400 power in society kind of casting a gaze on people 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.440 with less power. So you have like you know, the 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.960 classic white anthropologists studying tribes and like a male filmmaker 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.360 writing offensive characters to women whatever. And I think now 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.000 with the trend is to essentially write what you know 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:22.480 to be like oay, we're gonna hire gay people for 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.360 gay stories, women for female stories. I'm really interested in 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.079 basically like reversing that power dynamic. For with Nomad Lad, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.480 I thought it was interesting that Chloe Jao, who is Chinese, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.560 cast of a non American gaze on like Americana, and 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.040 I thought that was like an interesting place to start. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.240 I mean where whether or not I like the end 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.640 product is like a different story, but like I think 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.320 having you know, a reverse sex in the city where 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.960 a group of women right about like offense right a 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.760 series of characters that are literally like all Mario Kanton 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.600 could really be something thing. I thought it was really 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.160 interesting to see how many gay men in this sort 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:09.439 of like really emotionally stilted way had anger about Hanya 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.000 writing A Little Life and it becoming so popular, becoming 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.040 this thing, and it was so violent to gave men 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.560 like who is this woman? And I'm like, I'm sorry, 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:23.040 have you missed all of Western cultures major portrayals of 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:27.120 female characters because faggots wrote all of them? And guess what, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.520 Blanche Wad does not have a very good time inside 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:35.840 of like, you know, the queer psycho drama of Tennessee Williams. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.160 And that's also okay because a lot of actresses I 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:44.280 know love being inside of that psychodrama. Right And in 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.280 the same way that I mean, the Highest Thing is 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.720 such a great example of it. I think at this 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.240 point it has become completely seen as true that A 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.760 Little Life is bad among like a certain set of 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.960 uh you know, educated and and and so really conscious. Amen, 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.120 and I to this thing. Defy gay men. I think 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.520 they're an angry game. Yes, they're mad that they did 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.000 not have the juice to write that story and I'm sorry, 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.760 but that book is like truly, I mean she talked 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:17.320 about someone who was like, I'm gonna snap. She like 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.720 she started writing a book and she was like, Oh, 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:25.040 you faggots are not ready for what's about that? Wow? 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:31.800 I mean that's a powerful forward. I am the thing 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.680 that this was so uninterested in. My thing is that 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.840 I want every every minoritarian to have the mic right now, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.080 I also don't know that I want every minoritarian or 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.440 every person who's from a minority group to feel like 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.240 they have to like come out and only tell stories 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.800 about the minority group, because oftentimes one of the powers 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.520 of being in a minority group is being forced into 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:59.720 a space of witnessing more often than um than engaging, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.040 right um. You're forced into a supporting role often in 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.200 your real life, Like how many times does the gay 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.680 man have you went to your straight friend and been like, oh, 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.880 this is going on in my life, And before you 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.760 can even finish telling telling something about your small relationships thing, 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.480 they've taken the mic and given you a two hour 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.360 soliloquy about all of the intricacies of heterosexuality and their 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.200 own psycho drama. And I feel like now, because I 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.480 haven't been able to process my own ship as well. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.520 Maybe it's more fun for me to process straight people ship, 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.920 you know what I mean. Think about like a movie 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.880 like American Psycho. Would I prefer to watch American Psycho 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.560 or because it can tell you something a lot about 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:43.720 like what it means to be a woman inside of 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:45.800 a business. And think of how few women get to 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.160 speak in that movie and what she's saying in that, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.000 you know, and which brings it back to my main point. 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:55.600 Women should generally not speak in films. It's true. That's 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.320 why I was rooting for Chloe. But I don't know. 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.440 But you didn't like the movie. I don't know I 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.960 had so I um, well, i'll tell you this. It 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.159 used a lot. So it's about a woman, Francis McDormand, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.919 who um leaves her life behind and kind of decides 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.920 to become a modern day No, she's about Francis mcdormant, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:20.840 I'm happy and thank God and starting and about articulated. 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.280 I mean, after George said that he doesn't like movies 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:31.320 about women, it was game over for Francis mcdormant. Um, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.080 I don't know. I just so she used a lot 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.280 of real life nomads in supporting roles, and I found 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.160 myself actually caring more about them than about the main 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:43.000 character I was supposed to care about, which is Francis McDormand. 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:48.000 I saw the movie at Venice Film Festival, and again 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.280 I have to I have to say that, um, my 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.359 opinions are often uh. I'm someone who like does not 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.440 have static opinions, which is why I often am online 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.360 yelling at critics who've seen movies once and then like 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.400 say the most heinous things about them, because I feel 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.119 like that's like an inside thing. Um. I don't think like, um, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.399 heinous takes need to be an outside thing necessarily, because 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.960 something we know about subjective media is that meeting it 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.760 at different moments at different times changes how we engage 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.959 with it. Um. But I will say that because I 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.800 was at Venice and had seen three movies that were 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:32.480 like hyper narrative driven before I saw No matt Land, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.760 and yet was told by everyone, Oh, just wait, No 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.800 matt Land is the greatest movie I've ever seen. I 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:46.399 was expecting something that would excite my narrative hunger more 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.359 uh deeper than this film did. And I think because 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.040 I had read the long read of this that like 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.880 inspired this movie. I felt less enthralled by the narrative 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.679 thrust of it. And because I also am from a 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:06.520 wildly working class and like one could say, poor family background, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:11.960 I am very protective of stories about poor people. And 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:18.560 I felt as though I also wanted to see more um, 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.280 more complexities or and know more about the lives of 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.080 some of these real nomads. And I wanted to see 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.560 um inside of the arc of the lead character. Right. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.800 I feel like it's like um, it wallowed in certain 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:36.199 parts of their life, UM, certain details of their lives 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:43.000 that I found um like pornographic um in ways that 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.439 other aspects might not have. And again that's no shame 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.120 on any anyone who made this movie or any stories 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:51.480 they won't tell, or even if you liked it, I 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.480 just think that it didn't work for me at the 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.240 moment I met it. Yeah, no, it's and I have 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.199 to say, I like, for all my complaints about it 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.320 or more about like a politics maybe as a movie, 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:03.960 I thought it was very well made. I think it's 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.679 very exciting that she's getting attention, and I think I 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.000 mean it's honestly kind of sad that she is now 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.000 going to do a Marvel movie. But you know, God 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:18.280 bless but um, yeah, I don't. There was literally like 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.600 at one point she works at an Amazon fulfillment center 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.240 and one and she literally is like, well, it's good money. 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.679 It's like no, like actually literally, because I've read the 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.120 what what you're talking about? Too? Literally part of that 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.679 part of the the real story of these people that 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.320 it's not good money. And that was an interesting thing 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.560 in the film that was very frustrating for me because again, 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.280 knowing how films are made, it was like, oh, wow, 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.320 Amazon lets you shoot in their little buildings and with 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:52.040 Zach so you can't What were you allowed to be 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.359 as critical of that space as you would have been 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.320 if they if you hadn't need that, if you had 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.440 just been working at like flamm was on you know, um, 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.560 they would have taken from fimilitude away from it. But 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.639 what you have been more free to um, you know 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:14.240 dig in. Yeah, sorry, Sam, I know you have. I'm 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:15.680 going to change the topic because I know you haven't 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.160 seen the movie and well, you know, it's funny. George. 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.760 We you know, we bonded early on about having both 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.120 listened to Slate's Culture gab Fest a lot, and now 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:27.560 we are completely doing culture gab Fest. This is uh, 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.280 you know, Stradio Lab. We're sort of post podcast, and 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.920 yet this is sort of just a a sincere discussion 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.399 of a film that is, you know, currently being talked about. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:44.119 I how far we've fallen. I'm disappointed. I'm sad, you know. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.639 I mean, for me, a big turning point recently is 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.359 that I now I've turned away from my stand um 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.760 of Stephen metcalf On Clate Unslade culture gap Fest, and 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.080 I find myself more relating to um, to data and 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.639 even at times Julia, I love the idea that like, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:02.439 I show up on the show and it becomes culture 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:04.399 gap Fest, because I do think that it's like my 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.040 main MOUs operandi. It's being like a culture gap fest 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:09.720 for everyone. Like have you read this new book, it's 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.320 my bron Test Pernell. You should check it out. I mean, 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:14.719 I do think, Jeremy, I don't know if you ever 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:16.960 listen to Culture gap Fest. But like the two women, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.960 the two white women that co hosted along with Steven 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.919 meccap are exactly the women that you are describing as 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.480 championing you. They are exactly the professors you would have 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:28.560 that would be like oh my god, what an exciting 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.879 new voice. But also they are exactly the same like 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.439 microaggression thing, because they'll like I remember when they reviewed 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:37.439 Billy on the Street and they were like, I just 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:40.159 didn't get it, Like it just seemed kind of aggressive, 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:45.159 and it was like, yeah, that's the point. Yeah. I 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.680 was like, Oh, you're so used to like people being 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:54.440 extremely polite. There's like a different style of talking. Yeah. 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.199 Recently Stephen has been doing a lot of I'm listening 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.560 and learning. I'll just be like, well, you know, as 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:07.960 a ultimately middle age, mostly heteronormative, even white male, I 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.399 don't know if ultimately maybe what's more productive for me 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.320 is to not speak. I mean, I wondered that about 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:16.399 a lot of white people who have been saying that 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.040 a lot and yet haven't quit their jobs. Like I'm 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:22.359 happy you all haven't said that yet, because if so, 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.400 you should have just given me an io your podcast, right, Like, 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:28.760 I don't know if io is queer, but they like 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.359 and again I don't know what pronounced io uses. UM, 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:33.440 so I'm gonna I'm gonna just gonna use neutral ones. 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:39.000 Um they feel like queer adjacent to me um And 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:42.560 if you were actually woke, you would have already um 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.360 moved away from your post and given the mix to us, 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.919 but you haven't, um, and I appreciate that because you 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.680 and Io, Yeah, of course, but we're being honest. We've 0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:57.720 we've never lied about what this is. You know, it 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:01.840