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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: David Wolf with Us is one of the foremost British

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Speaker 2: experts on the Shroud of Turin. He's an Academy Award

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Speaker 2: winning producer and director with a long career in British

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Speaker 2: television and film. His website is who caneb dot com.

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Speaker 2: It's an amazing say David, you do a great job.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the program.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, it's great to be here.

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Speaker 2: How did you get involved in the Shroud of Turin?

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Speaker 3: Well, I suppose in a kind of miraculous way. Really,

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Speaker 3: I was a graduate of the London Film School way

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Speaker 3: back in the last century, and back in those days,

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Speaker 3: most of the work I could get with corporate work.

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Speaker 3: It was interesting. It was people building great civil engineering

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Speaker 3: projects around the world, and I enjoyed that. But I

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Speaker 3: wanted to get my teeth into something a little more interesting,

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Speaker 3: and I sent out a press release to all the

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Speaker 3: local newspapers in the UK saying that independent producer looking

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Speaker 3: for ideas, and frankly I was deluged. I mean people

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Speaker 3: had gone up into their attics and dusted off things

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Speaker 3: that they taught about ages ago and I, and I,

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Speaker 3: of course, having advertised for them, I had to that

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Speaker 3: was obliged to wade through them all. And there was

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Speaker 3: nothing really inspiring until one envelope I opened had a

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Speaker 3: photograph of the face and it was purported to be

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Speaker 3: the face of Jesus, and it was sent to me

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Speaker 3: to buy a a historian called Ian Wilson. Now I

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Speaker 3: wasn't religious, but I had been, being a photographer and

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Speaker 3: a filmmaker. I was aware that this image that was

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Speaker 3: on a linen cloth was really something quite unusual. Fact,

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Speaker 3: when you saw it in the naked eye, it looked

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Speaker 3: a bit like a negative, and sure enough, when you

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Speaker 3: actually turned it into a negative by reversing light and shade,

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Speaker 3: it suddenly became extremely vivid, and it was an image,

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Speaker 3: unmistakably of a crucified man. There was only a history

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Speaker 3: of the cloth back to the Middle Ages, and so

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Speaker 3: one was obviously a bit suspicious that this might have

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Speaker 3: been some medieval fake. But it turns out that once

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Speaker 3: the investigation underway, what the most important thing is. Of course,

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Speaker 3: as an independent producer, that will tell you have an

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Speaker 3: idea but an idea is no good without the money

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Speaker 3: to make it. And I had located a priest in

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Speaker 3: New York who had actually had was brought up in

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Speaker 3: Turin and emigrated to New York, and I was put

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Speaker 3: in touch with him. I said, look, I've come across

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Speaker 3: this shrowd. It's insuring. No one's really ever heard of it,

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Speaker 3: but it sounds fascinating. And he said to me, just

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Speaker 3: come and see me. Well, i'd never been to America

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Speaker 3: at that time, and it was nineteen seventy eight. It

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Speaker 3: was quite an expensive thing to me. Anyway, we got

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Speaker 3: there and he put me in front of somebody who

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Speaker 3: had inherited a huge fortune from one of the brewing companies.

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Speaker 3: And I was one of several people who had who

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Speaker 3: made a pitch that day to this gentleman over lunch.

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Speaker 3: And again, luckily for me, the other guys that were

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Speaker 3: pitching didn't really inspire this chat. But when I started

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Speaker 3: talking about the Shroud of Turin, this multi millionaire got

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Speaker 3: very interested and said to me, well, mister Wolf, how

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Speaker 3: much money do you need? And I actually hadn't done

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Speaker 3: a budget at that time. Was it was still early stages.

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Speaker 3: But when you asked the question like that, and you

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Speaker 3: have to come up with something.

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Speaker 2: You need a quick answer, right, don You need a

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Speaker 2: quick answer?

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Speaker 3: When he does that, I need a quick answer. And

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Speaker 3: I said the three hundred and fifty thousand pounds and

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Speaker 3: that was the equivalent back then of about a million dollars.

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Speaker 3: And this sentlement said hmm, and he sort of scratched

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Speaker 3: his chin for a moment and said, okay. I walked.

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Speaker 3: I walked. I walked away from that meeting with a

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Speaker 3: million dollars. And the time I was thrown back to

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Speaker 3: London that the money had reached my bank account and

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Speaker 3: I was away for the film who can he be?

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Speaker 2: It's an amazing thing that.

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Speaker 3: For the first film. I'm going back now to nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy eight. That first film was called The Silent Witness

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Speaker 3: and it won a British Academy Award and it set

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Speaker 3: my career on the path. And I then made lots

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Speaker 3: of documentaries for TV. And then in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 3: the Shroud had got so famous that the the Vatican

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Speaker 3: decided that it needed it could be very useful. And

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Speaker 3: you may have heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These

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Speaker 3: were papyrus that were found in the desert and they

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Speaker 3: had been accurately dated using a new technique where you

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Speaker 3: could you could measure the ratio of carbon fourteen in

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Speaker 3: something like that and get an accurate age. And it

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Speaker 3: turns out that Sea scrolls were actually two thousand years old,

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Speaker 3: and that was a huge of an interest to Israel.

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Speaker 3: And if you go to Jerusalem now you'll find their

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Speaker 3: biggest exhibition is of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Well, I

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Speaker 3: think the Vatican thought, well, if you can date the

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Speaker 3: Dead Sea scrolls, if we could date the Turian shild

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Speaker 3: and that turns out to be two thousand years old,

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Speaker 3: what will that do for us? And so the process

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Speaker 3: started and I was because of my interest in an

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Speaker 3: association with it. I was there following the whole process,

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Speaker 3: and quite rightly, the Turing authority says, well, we can't

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Speaker 3: be seen to be presiding over this because we've obviously

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Speaker 3: got a vested interest in it being authentic, and so

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Speaker 3: they decided to give responsibility for organizing the test to

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Speaker 3: the British Museum, probably one of the most august bodies

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Speaker 3: then that they could think of. However, the British Museum

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Speaker 3: is made of beautiful stone and solid but inside it

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Speaker 3: our people and the people there have their own hopes

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Speaker 3: and fear them ambitions. And it turns out that there

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Speaker 3: were two individuals at the British Museum who had their

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Speaker 3: own motivation for financing their own institution, the Oxford Radio

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Speaker 3: Carbon Unit, and they were desperate to actually get the

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Speaker 3: job of dating the Turin trail because they knew the

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Speaker 3: publicity that would be given to them, and so they

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Speaker 3: ended up presiding over the tests. Now it's a very

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Speaker 3: human thing. The day came for the test to be

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Speaker 3: carried out on this trail, which only used to come

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Speaker 3: out every ten years or so for people to see,

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Speaker 3: was taken into the room prepared for it, and the

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Speaker 3: individual scientist in Turin when it came to it, and

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Speaker 3: even though the protocols have said you've got to take

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Speaker 3: you've got to take samples from least six or seven

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Speaker 3: different parts of the shrowd, they didn't need much. Just

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Speaker 3: a sort of square inch or so. You need to

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Speaker 3: take it from different areas of the shroud and then

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Speaker 3: average out to get an.

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Speaker 2: Accurate because some sections could have been tainted with earlier

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Speaker 2: or later materials.

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Speaker 3: Right exactly, you had to average it out. But when

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Speaker 3: it came to it, the the person presiding over it

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Speaker 3: insurance said, look, you know this is this is the

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Speaker 3: shround that wou cross. You don't need to take you

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Speaker 3: only you only need to take one sample. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: instead of the British Museum saying no, no, no, no no,

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Speaker 3: we've agreed this protocol. We've got to take protocols from

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Speaker 3: every part of the cloth, they abandoned that and agreed

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Speaker 3: and agreed that they would just take one sample from

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Speaker 3: a corner of the cloth to day, and that's where

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Speaker 3: it always another expression. But that's what's went badly wrong.

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Speaker 3: We now know that the corner that they dated because

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Speaker 3: the shroud was such a well known object in the

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Speaker 3: Middle Ages and in every religious festival it was held

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Speaker 3: up in the hot Mediterranean heat by by those bishops

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Speaker 3: selected to the honor, and they gripped it closely. You

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Speaker 3: have to remember, back back in then, relics were so important.

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Speaker 3: The closer you could get to a relic, the more

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Speaker 3: religious value you got from it. And the same applied.

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Speaker 3: The tighter this cloth could be gripped, the more value

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Speaker 3: they get from it, and the corners from which it

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Speaker 3: was held up got worn out. And because textiles were

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Speaker 3: so valuable back in those days they could be repaired

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Speaker 3: with beautiful skills, so that you could not see from

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Speaker 3: the other side that something had been repaired. And what

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Speaker 3: happened was the corner was repaired in the Middle Ages,

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Speaker 3: and it came to it with all the all the

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Speaker 3: attention on it and so on, and with with the

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Speaker 3: decision to say, just take one sample from a corner

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Speaker 3: that they took the example from there, and we now

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Speaker 3: know that the sample that they cut and dated was

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Speaker 3: a medieval repair.

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Speaker 2: It was, it was accurate, but it was medieval by.

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Speaker 3: Mistake, absolutely, and the British Museum couldn't bring themselves to

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Speaker 3: to say, oh, no, well we made a mistake, and

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Speaker 3: they stuck to there and they stuck to their death

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Speaker 3: their finding that it was medieval. And unfortunately, from that

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Speaker 3: moment on, the shrouds represent reputation dipped. And if anyone

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Speaker 3: has seen Mark filming, the image itself is encoded with

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Speaker 3: three dimensional information. So when you scan it are doing

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Speaker 3: the climact of this film, the body of Jesus can

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Speaker 3: put with CGI just from the data on that cloth

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Speaker 3: can be completely realized. And the other thing, of course,

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Speaker 3: is is that CRUCIFIXI, all the all the depictions of

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Speaker 3: crucifixion down the ages were done in much later times,

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Speaker 3: long after the Romans had stopped crucifying people, and the technique,

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Speaker 3: for want of a better word, had become unknown. But

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Speaker 3: when you were crucified, and please forgive me that this

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Speaker 3: you know it's not the most persant thing to hear,

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Speaker 3: but the actual way you finally died was a suffocation.

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Speaker 3: They were once once you run the cross, you pushed

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Speaker 3: down on your feet in order to be able to breathe,

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Speaker 3: and you could see on the blood flows of the

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Speaker 3: shell there's two body positions where were raised up the

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Speaker 3: blood went one way and down in the other. So

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Speaker 3: every forensic detail was accurate.

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Speaker 2: And David inteen In twenty twenty two, Italian researchers used

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Speaker 2: a technique called wide angle X ray and that showed

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Speaker 2: something dramatically different, didn't it.

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Speaker 3: That the various because of the shu represents such a

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Speaker 3: significant thing. If it's authentic, which I believe it is,

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Speaker 3: it's not only an image of Christ but itself. It's

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Speaker 3: miraculous because the only thing that could explain them is

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Speaker 3: because it's it's encoded with three dimension information, so that

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Speaker 3: the tip of the nose for example, is more dense

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Speaker 3: than the eye socket because there's a difference between them.

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Speaker 3: The only thing that can explain the image is that

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Speaker 3: at some point there was an incredible burst of energy,

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Speaker 3: energy that could would, under normal circumstances have blown the

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Speaker 3: cave that the tomb a part. But this energy was

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Speaker 3: released for such a short milli second of time that

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Speaker 3: what it actually did was just scorch the cloth, and

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Speaker 3: it did so in such a way that whichever part

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Speaker 3: of the cloth was closer got slightly more scorched, so that,

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Speaker 3: as I said, the typical nose is darker than the

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Speaker 3: eye socket. So as seen in the climax of this film,

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Speaker 3: with modern technology, we scan the image and take that

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Speaker 3: three dimensional information and you can actually recreate the body

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Speaker 3: that's lying there using nothing more than the data that's

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Speaker 3: on the cloth. And we're two thousand years on now

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Speaker 3: from the actual moment of the crucifixion. I've come to believe,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of people who've seen the film now

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Speaker 3: share that belief, is that somehow, as we reached the

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Speaker 3: two thousandth anniversary of the of the Crucifixion and the resurrection,

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Speaker 3: this shroud and the modern technology now available has given us,

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Speaker 3: gives us the opportunity to witness for ourselves exactly what

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Speaker 3: happened in that tomb.

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Speaker 2: Do you believe that the burst of energy that left

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Speaker 2: the shroud the way it is was done on purpose

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Speaker 2: to leave it behind for us to see this as

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Speaker 2: a witness, or do you think it just was something else?

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Speaker 3: No, No, this, this is such a phenomenon. And we

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Speaker 3: know I mean the thing about the Gospel and Jesus,

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Speaker 3: I mean he turns water into wine. He's capable of

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Speaker 3: doing these things. But this ultimate miracle, we know, crucifixion,

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Speaker 3: and it was a common thing that the Romans used,

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Speaker 3: but we didn't really understand the technique of it. And

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Speaker 3: please forgive me. Your readers might find listeners might find this,

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Speaker 3: But I think what you actually died of was suffocation,

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Speaker 3: because in order to breathe, you had to push down

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Speaker 3: on your nailed feet and put yourself up with your

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Speaker 3: hands just in order to be able to take the

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Speaker 3: weight off your chest so that you could breathe. So

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Speaker 3: the whole process was one ghastly sea sort of rising

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Speaker 3: and falling. And you can see the way the blood

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Speaker 3: angles go on the arms and legs. It depicts those

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Speaker 3: two positions of the body on the cross, every possible

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Speaker 3: detail you could think of on this image on the closs.

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Speaker 3: No artist in the Middle Ages could have done it,

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Speaker 3: because no one knew how to crucify anybody in the

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Speaker 3: Middle Ages. Thank God they'd stopped doing it. But the images,

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Speaker 3: the evidence on the cloth takes us right back to

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Speaker 3: that moment, the pivotal moment really if you like, the

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Speaker 3: Western civilization, because it was the belief, it was the

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Speaker 3: belief that even the disciples themselves suddenly realized just how

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Speaker 3: Jesus significance was. That they went then off around the

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Speaker 3: world and spread Christianity. So that was the pivotal moment,

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Speaker 3: and it's captured for us on this cloth. And so

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Speaker 3: one of the most powerful sequences I think in the

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Speaker 3: film is I found a forensic pathologist in Los Angeles

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Speaker 3: who somebody who has examined more dead bodies, probably than

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Speaker 3: anybody else, and he lays out the film, He lays

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Speaker 3: out the full length image of the body and carries

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Speaker 3: out an autopsy on it effectively, and we suddenly discover

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Speaker 3: through the autopsy and the marks on the cloth, exactly

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Speaker 3: what happened during the process of crucifixion.

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Speaker 2: David, do you follow this story of Veronica when Christ

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Speaker 2: was carrying the crucifix the cross with Simon of decree

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Speaker 2: and then she ran up to him and put a

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Speaker 2: cloth on his face and he left an imprint on that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and as famously it exists, it does not stand

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Speaker 3: up to the same close close examination that the shild does.

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Speaker 3: Now I wouldn't I wouldn't want to write it up

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Speaker 3: altogether because I haven't really studied it that closely. But

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Speaker 3: as far as I'm aware, the actual comparison, listen to

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Speaker 3: the image on the show itself does not stand up.

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Speaker 3: But please, I'm not an expert on the Veronica. I

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Speaker 3: am on the Shroud of Turin. The first film I

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Speaker 3: made about it was in nineteen seventy eight. That's the

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Speaker 3: one I want a British Academy Award, and I've just

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Speaker 3: made what as I've got to my retirement. Really, I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do something to restore its its status after

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Speaker 3: that rogue carbon fourteen test, and that's what the new

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Speaker 3: film Who Can He Be? I think achieve?

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